“I call shame the twenty-ton shield,” says Brené Brown. “It's a defense mechanism—very classic—that we carry in order to protect ourselves from getting hurt. But what it actually does is protect us from being seen.” Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, a New York Times–bestselling author (read her latest, Dare to Lead), and the star of a new Netflix special, The Call to Courage. In this chat, she and GP talk about courage, which Brown says is teachable and possible to cultivate only from a place of vulnerability. They talk about being perfectionists: “Where perfectionism is driving, your shame is riding shotgun,” says Brown. And they talk about empathy—as a tool for combating shame internally and for stepping beyond yourself to connect with and lead others. (For more, see The goop Podcast hub.)