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OFFICIAL

Wai 1040, #4.1.3

WAI 1040 TE PAPARAHI O TE RAKI HEARING WEEK THREE 9 13 AUGUST 2010 HELD AT WAIPUNA MARAE
5 DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS, THIS TRANSCRIPT REMAINS COMPLETELY UNCHECKED BY CROWN AND/OR CLAIMANT COUNSEL, AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN ABSOLUTE DRAFT
Tribunal Judge Coxhead Keita Walker Richard Hill Kihi Ngatai Ranginui Walker Joanne Morris Jason Pou Andrew Irwin Kath Taurau Annette Sykes Moana Tuwhare Tony Shepherd Mere Mangu Helen Carrad Paranihia Walker Rima Edwards Tom Bennion Campbell Duncan Mike Doogan Miharo Armstrong Gerrad Sharrock Linda Thornton P Agius Shane Hutton Miharo Armstrong Rebbeca Sandri Pita Tipene Hinerangi Puru Jennifer Rutene Owen Kingi Oneroa Pihema Warren Moetara John Klaricich Tipene Potter Anania Wikaira H Lyall E Toki Pairama Tahere Teveke Afeaki Buck Korewha Hone Sadler Richard Dargaville Brother of Owen Kingi Erimana Taniora Mitai Paraone-Kawiti JC KW RH KN RW JM JP AI KT AS MT TS MM HC PW RE TB CD MD MA GS LT PA SH MA RS PT HP JR OK OP WM JK TP AW HL ET PT TA BK HS RD ?K ET MK

Counsel

Witnesses

Waimarie Bruce Mereana Robinson Hera Epiha Robert McAnergney Danny Watson Te Ihi Tito Pari Walker Bob Ashby Maryanne Baker Marsha Davis Renata Tane Hilda Halkyard-Harawira Hokimate Painting Wharetatao King Hori Parata Te Warihi Hetaraka Wayne Te Tai Abraham Witana Emma Cribb Renata Tane Samuel Carpenter Anne Salmond

WB MR HE RM DW TIT PW BA MB MD RT HH HP WK HP TWH WTT AW EC RT SC AS

TABLE OF CONTENTS

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 1 STARTS ........................................................... 7 5 Hinerangi Cooper-Puru reads to her Brief [9.21 am] ............................................... 9 Jennifer Rutene reads to her Brief [9.49 am] ........................................................ 12 Judge Coxhead questions Jennifer Rutene [10.17 am] ......................................... 12 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES ........................................ 17 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 2 STARTS ......................................................... 17 10 Warren Moetara reads to his Brief [11.52 am]....................................................... 31 Ranginui Walker questions Warren Moetara [12.16 pm] ....................................... 31 Judge Coxhead questions Warren Moetara [12.18 pm] ........................................ 32 John Klaricich reads to his Brief [12.22 pm] .......................................................... 33 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 2 [12.32 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 33 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 3 STARTS ......................................................... 33 15 Annette Sykes questions John Klaricich [2.27 pm] ................................................ 34 Ranginui Walker questions John Klaricich [2.31 pm] ............................................ 35 Judge Coxhead questions John Klaricich [2.32 pm].............................................. 35 Anania Wikaira reads to his Brief [2.48 pm] .......................................................... 37 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 3 [3.04 PM] FINISHES .......................................... 37 20 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 4 STARTS ......................................................... 37 Andrew Irwin questions Anania Wikaira [4.06 pm] ................................................ 37 Ranginui Walker questions Anania Wikaira [4.09 pm]........................................... 38 Judge Coxhead questions Anania Wikaira [4.11 pm] ............................................ 38 Helen Lyall reads to her Brief [4.30 pm] ................................................................ 43 Ellen Toki reads to her Brief [4.48 pm] .................................................................. 43 WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 4 [5.02 PM] FINISHES .......................................... 45 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 1 STARTS ......................................................... 45 Pairama Tahere reads to his Brief [9.08 am] ......................................................... 49 Richard Hill questions Pairama Tahere [10.03 am] ............................................... 50 Tapiki Korewha reads to his Brief [10.16 am] ........................................................ 54 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES ........................................ 55 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 2 STARTS ......................................................... 55 Richard Dargaville reads to his Brief [11.25 am] ................................................... 57 Kihi Ngatai questions Richard Dargaville [12.21 pm] ............................................ 71 35 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 2 [12.25 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 73

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WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 3 STARTS ......................................................... 73 Owen Kingi reads to his Brief [1.17 pm] ................................................................ 74 Erimana Taniora reads to his Brief [1.51 pm] ........................................................ 76 Helen Carrad questions Erimana Taniora [2.41 pm] ............................................. 78 Judge Coxhead questions Erimana Taniora [2.42 pm] ......................................... 78 Mitai Paraone-Kawiti reads to his Brief [2.47 pm].................................................. 80 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 3 [3.21 PM] FINISHES .......................................... 83 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 4 STARTS ......................................................... 83 10 Waimarie Bruce reads to her Brief [3.57 pm] ........................................................ 88 Helen Carrad questions Waimarie Bruce [4.37 pm] .............................................. 88 WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 4 [4.55 PM] FINISHES .......................................... 92 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 1 STARTS ......................................................... 92 Mereana Robinson reads to her Brief [8.51 am].................................................... 93 Kihi Ngaitai questions Mariana Robinson [9.25 am] .............................................. 93 Ranginui Walker questions Hera Epiha [9.46 am] ................................................. 96 Robert McAnergney speaks to his Brief [9.56 am] ................................................ 98 Richard Hill questions Robert McAnergney [10.26 am] ....................................... 105 Judge Coxhead questions Robert McAnergney [10.29 am] ................................ 106 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 1 [10.35 AM] FINISHES ...................................... 107 20 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 2 STARTS ....................................................... 107 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 2 [11.12 AM] FINISHES ...................................... 111 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 3 STARTS ....................................................... 111 Te Ihi Tito reads to his Brief [11.46 am] .............................................................. 121 Andrew Irwin questions Te Ihi Tito [12.13 pm] .................................................... 126 Ranginui Walker questions Te Ihi Tito [12.16 pm] ............................................... 127 Pari Walker reads to his Brief [12.18 pm] ............................................................ 128 Andrew Irwin questions Pari Walker [12.35 pm] .................................................. 129 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 3 [12.43 PM] FINISHES ...................................... 131 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 4 STARTS ....................................................... 131 30 Maryanne Baker reads to her Brief [1.15 pm] ..................................................... 131 Marsha Davis reads to her Brief [2.11 pm] .......................................................... 133 Andrew Irwin questions Marsha Davis [2.43 pm] ................................................ 133 Annette Sykes questions Marsha Davis [2.58 pm] .............................................. 137 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 4 [3.02 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 138 35 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 5 STARTS ....................................................... 138 Renata Tane speaks to his Brief [3.15 pm] ......................................................... 139 Hilda Halkyard-Harawira speaks to her Brief [4.32 pm] ....................................... 156 WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 5 [5.09 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 158

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WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 1 STARTS ....................................................... 158 Hilda Harawera reads to her Brief [8.51 am] ....................................................... 160 Tipene Potter questions Hilda Halkyard-Harawira [9.54 am] ............................... 162 Annette Sykes questions Hilda Halkyard-Harawira [10.01 am] ........................... 164 Hokimate Painting reads to her Brief [10.16 am] ................................................. 169 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 1 [10.26 AM] FINISHES ...................................... 169 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 2 STARTS ....................................................... 169 Hokimate Painting continues reading to her Brief [11.01 am] ............................. 170 Andrew Irwin questions Hokimate Painting [11.28 am] ....................................... 170 Wharetatao King reads reading to her Brief [11.38 am] ...................................... 171 Ranginui Walker questions Wharetatao King [12.25 pm] .................................... 179 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 2 [12.41 PM] FINISHES ...................................... 182 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 3 STARTS ....................................................... 182 15 Hori Te Moanaroa Parata reads to his Brief [1.39 pm] ........................................ 188 Judge Coxhead questions Hori Te Moanaroa Parata [2.13 pm].......................... 188 Te Warihi Kokowai Hetaraka Parata reads to his Brief [2.17 pm]........................ 189 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 3 [3.02 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 190 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 4 STARTS ....................................................... 190 20 Andrew Irwin questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.46 pm] ....................................... 195 Jason Pou questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.49 pm] ........................................... 196 Mere Mangu questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.50 pm] ........................................ 196 Annette Sykes questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.58 pm] ..................................... 199 Kihi Ngatai reads to his Brief [4.02 pm] ............................................................... 200 Wayne Te Tai reads to his Brief [4.17 pm] .......................................................... 202 Annette Sykes questions Wayne Te Tai [4.34 pm] .............................................. 203 Abraham Witana reads to his Brief [4.36 pm] ...................................................... 203 Annette Sykes questions Wayne Te Tai [4.34 pm] .............................................. 208 Merata Kawharu speaks to her Brief [5.05 pm] ................................................... 210 WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 4 [5.43 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 221 30 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 1 STARTS ....................................................... 221 Samuel Carpenter reads to his Brief [8.55 am] ................................................... 223 Campbell Duncan questions Samuel Carpenter [9.46 am] ................................. 224 Te Kani Williams questions Samuel Carpenter [10.07 am] ................................. 230 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES ...................................... 238 35 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 2 STARTS ....................................................... 238 Jason Pou questions Samuel Carpenter [11.15 am] ........................................... 242 Mike Doogan questions Samuel Carpenter [11.58 am] ....................................... 255 Annette Sykes questions Samuel Carpenter [12.27 pm] ..................................... 263 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 2 [12.36 PM] FINISHES ...................................... 266 40

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WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 3 STARTS ....................................................... 266 Annette Sykes questions Samuel Carpenter [1.17 pm] ....................................... 267 Miharo Armstrong questions Samuel Carpenter [2.02 pm] ................................. 279 Gerald Sharrock questions Samuel Carpenter [2.20 pm] .................................... 283 Linda Thornton questions Samuel Carpenter [2.46 pm] ...................................... 291 Tipene Potter questions Samuel Carpenter [2.56 pm] ........................................ 295 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 3 [3.03 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 297 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 4 STARTS ....................................................... 297 10 Anne Salmond reads to her Brief [3.20 pm] ........................................................ 297 Andrew Irwin questions Anne Salmond [4.04 pm] ............................................... 310 WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 4 [4.55 PM] FINISHES ........................................ 321

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 1 STARTS


Hearing Resumes JC 5 - - - harbour this morning, and we had a 10 seater van organised for 20 of us, so there was a bit of team bonding going on before we got here. Engari, kua tai pai, kua tai pai. I just want to remind people how weve got to where we are today. Its always the Tribunals view that we are here to listen to you. We are here to listen to the people, were hear to listen to what the witnesses have to say and were hear to listen to what the Crown has to say. And thats why, we as a Tribunal, we leave it to the claimants and the lawyers to come up with the timetable. Youve chosen who you want to present before the Tribunal today and we are here to listen to them. What I would say, it is a very ambitious and a very challenging timetable that we have before us all. There are a number of people on that timetable. But with the co-operation of ng ria, ng mihi ki a koutou, kua tatu mai nei, the co-operation of the Crown, Mr Irwin, ki t tma, tn koutou with the co-operation of all the people that are here today and in the next days, Im sure that we can all move through them. I also want to remind us why we are here. This is the initial hearings, this is Stage 1, and weve said it a number of times in the directions, in the memos that weve put out; it is our plan to also have a Stage 2. Stage 1 was the start, and so were all here focused on those important documents of He Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti and that should be the focus of our krero and of your krero. So please ensure that everybody we all work together to ensure that the witnesses move quickly to the stands so we give them the opportune time and while I say the timetable is challenging, it is doable with cooperation, with working together with effective and efficient moving between witnesses, Im sure that we can get to hear, not only you hearing it, but also us, we can all get to hear the krero that will come before us. So those are my only opening remarks and at this time, Mr Pou, kei a koe te w. JP 35 Kia ora, sir. Ill just like to address some of those things that youve said this morning. The Tribunal is here to listen to everybody. Its good, its not as if the people of Hokianga have been waiting a 165 years to be heard, they have been speaking for 165 years and nobodys been listening. And when we look back through the history we look at people like Te Maru Peehi Koru, Te Wereta Hauraki, Te Teira (Mack Taylor), Whina Cooper, Mate Toia, we can see that their voices actually been very loud, very prominent and very clear about seeking to get the Crown to honour its obligations under Te Triti. So its good that an entity has come here to ostensibly listen to what the voice was.

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As the Tribunal went around on the extended powhiri which started at Arai Te Uru yesterday, they would have felt a different feel a different context to the rohe, something thats a little bit different, and its those perspectives that the different hap are trying to get across. And its there where this process has caused some difficulty. Its the crossover between the need of those hap to have their perceptions heard and the logistical realities that face the Tribunal, and also the legal processes, sir, and youll recall there have been some memorandum that have been filed into the Tribunal by lawyers who dont accept what the people have said and who should be talking. So its not just a case of sitting back, sir, and saying, Leave it to you because it is a legal process and the lawyers are trying to defend their claimants within this process and are forcing changes to the timetable in ways like that.

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That being said, you are here and youre going to hear from these different hap about their realities. Its important to listen to the different realities and to the evidence, which on its face, might not address directly He Whakaputanga me Te Triti, but its propensity evidence that shows the makeup of those people that signed. If youre going to listen to a story about Te Tirarau you need to know who Te Tirarau was, what kind of person was Taurau, what kind of person was Mohi Twhai and its only when you understand those people, their realities and where they live, that youll be able to understand what they were trying to achieve when they signed The Treaty. So the little hap anecdotal stories become vividly important because, in the written record we have people like Henry Williams and Reverend Hobbs who say we explained explicitly what sovereignty meant to them, but then, if you look at what Waka Nene was saying to Grey later on, its quite clear that Waka Nene understood a different story. So the propensity of these rangatira, their makeup and how they made decisions for those people that they served, it becomes very, very important. Its easy to look at the names on The Treaty and say theyre all rangatira, theyre all rangatira, but then we need to go back to that first week of hearings where Patu Hhepa said Te Rangatira o ng Rangatira ko te hap. So when they achieve those levels of ascendency, its where they are serving their people, they become taurekareka, as the name of Hemi Henare and his father shows they become they serve the people and the people become responsible for the actions that they do. Its the people that die when the decision that is made is wrong. So the discussions about the different tpuna, the discussions about the reality of where they live whether they live on a conflict zone, whether they live in a Kohanga like Hokianga become vitally important and the Tribunal needs to have this in mind, that context in mind, as its considering the evidence that comes forward.

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Before you have a picture of Whina Cooper on the hikoi. You can see theres along way ahead of her to go, but you can also see that shes come along way. Thats where we are now. Weve come along way, but there is still along way to go, were not at the beginning of a journey, were right in the middle of something. And what these people seek to do is have their status within this country, not their racial status, but their status the just of their constitutional status recognised in this country and its hoped that you coming here to listen to them today will go someway to achieving a couple more steps along the road. Now, sir, if you dont have any questions on those matters, I'd like to introduce the first witness. JC JP Oh, I just do have one question are there any amendments or changes to the timetable for today or is it as we have? Nothing for today, sir. So our first witness is Hinerangi Puru Cooper and her document number is #C37, sir. HP Tuatahi, he mihi tonu ana ko Kite Hou, ko Ahei te wahine kia t tuatahi ki te krero ki te mihi atu ki a ttou o Ngapuhi nui tonu ki Te Rarawa. Aroha atu ana ki a koutou, t koutou maia ki te ua nei i waho nei. N reira tn koutou e te Taraipiunara, te Karauna. Aroha mai ki te iwi Mori, te iwi o Hokinga kia mai ki te iwi, t iwi Mori. Despite the inclement weather I admire your determination. We call upon you to consider the people of Hokianga and that.

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Hinerangi Cooper-Puru reads to her Brief [9.21 am]


HP You know, I want to say something that my Mum used to say: You have to go through hell to get to heaven and youre right here youre right in Hokianga, Pangaru Whakarapa, this is heaven.

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HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HP I want to say to you, this is from all the way from Hokianga Whirinaki.

HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HP 35 I hope you got good hearing skills. This is very important to my people of Hokianga and Ngpuhi nui tonu ki Te Rarawa.

HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HP Because in me Im quite sad, Im shaking, Im angry, Im aroha for my people. My people, youll seeing them all in prison, are they to blame, I dont think so.

HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF

HP

Im afraid for them, kua ma tku katoa a home, and Im talking about my uri whakatupu, my grandchildren, their grandchildren, their grandchildren.

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HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HP My mother used to go up there, shes been right on the back of Wharerimu, te warawara.

HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF 5 HP You know, I went on a hikoi in 75, there is the Memorial of Rights there, right beside the Dame. That lady used to keep us late at night krero o ng mo te whenua, krero o ng mo to ng iwi. Mum I did not know that Id be standing here. She would have been over a hundred and something years. 10 HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HP None of us in this room can say that it hasnt been, its been ignored.

HINERANGI COOPER PURU CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF WAIATA JC 15 JP AI KW 20 Trans JP 25 Mr Pou? Thats the presentation, sir. If there are any questions from the Crown or the Tribunal these could be asked now. Karekau he ptai e te whaaea, ngari te mihi atu ki a koe e te tamhine a Whina n reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koe, kia ora. Tn koe e hine, kare he ptai, ngari kei te mihi atu ki a koe i te kaitaringa atu i te mamae kei roto i o kopu e rere nei, n reira tn koe. Thank you, ma'am, I do not have any questions and we sense the pain and the emotion welling within. Thank you. Sir, I know I told you there were no changes to the timetable, but were going to have one now. We are in Hokianga after all. Mr Oneroa Pihema was supposed go on theres just going to be a reshuffle. Ms Jennifer Rutene, her document number is #C38, shell be giving evidence and Mr Pihema will follow. JR 30 Tangata nui o runga i te rangi, tuku iho ki raro, kei hea ng krero, i a whakatauk ki a kei te mamae aue taukuri e, i ahau e. Marangai, marangai, whiua atu taku manu ki t o te pae, i aku tini, i aku rahi e mihi nei, e tangi nei ki a ttou kua huihui nei te whakaora mai an i ng krero i ng whakaaro m o ttou rangatira, e mihi nei ki a koutou, ki a ttou. E te Taraipiunara, nau mai ki runga i te karanga o te Hokianga, kia haere mai koutou hei taringa, hei kaitaki m ng krero kua whakatakotongia i o koutou aroaro. Tn koutou. The great man from above, settle amongst us so that the words may flow freely. Arise, arise, send my bird beyond the horizon. 11

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Greetings to everyone here, who are gathered here, to revive the stories and words about our ancestors, greetings to you. To the Tribunal, greetings on behalf of the Hokianga, may you come into our area with your ears opened as guardians of the stories and words that are to be presented to you, greetings to you.

Jennifer Rutene reads to her Brief [9.49 am]


JC JP 10 JC AI Trans 15 JC RW Tn koe. Questions, sir, from the Crown or the Tribunal. Mr Irwin? Karekau he ptai ngari me te mihi ki a koe nhau an e whakatakoto i ng krero m tpuna rangatira, n reira, tnei te mihi atu ki a koe. No questions, ma'am, but thank you very much for your evidence pertaining to your ancestors, thank you. Richard? Tn koe e Jenny. I tae tamariki mai koe ki te whare wnanga o Tmaki inianei kua t pakeke koe i mua i te iwi, i mua hoki i te aroaro o te Taraipiunara ki te whakaputa i ng krero m o tipuna, n reira ka nui te mihi ki a koe, tn koe. Greetings, Jenny. You came to Auckland University as a child, now you stand as an adult, as a mature person before your people and before the Tribunal to express the thoughts of your ancestors, thank you very much. Kia ora. Tn koe kare he ptai, ngari ko te mihi atu ki a koe m te mrama me te whakatakoto mai i ou koutou whakaaro, n reira tn koutou Thank you. I do not have any questions, but I acknowledge your evidence and the thoughts within. Kia ora.

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JR KW 25 Trans JR

Judge Coxhead questions Jennifer Rutene [10.17 am]


30 JC Trans JC 35 Trans he ptai tku, e rua ng ptai. I have aq question I have two questions. Kei a koe tahi krero e pa ana ki ng krero i mua mai i te hainatanga o te Tiriti? Do you have any evidence to substantiate that claim before the signing...

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JC JR 5

Do you have any krero about what they said or what discussions went on prior to the signing at Mangungu? To the best of my knowledge, theres not a lot of evidence around the actual discussions that were had in the Mangungu mission house the night before the signing. I make reference to the type of discussions that could have taken place, given the kaupapa that was on the doorstep for the next day. Kia ora. Kia ora. My second question is, you say in your conclusion the key themes of speeches at Mangungu, thats the speeches I take it of the rangatira that was before they signed Te Triti, is that - - e, it signing, e. Is there krero about their speeches or waiata about what they said in their speeches? Theres recorded accounts of all of those speeches that were translated, and Anne Salmond will, you know, in her evidence she talks about the nature of those translations and the authenticity of those translations, but they definitely are there to be seen the various number of rangatira. I know that Anne Salmond has got that in her evidence. I was wondering, did you have krero an tu atu n krero o Anne? Was there waiata or -N. Okay. Ka nui te mihi kia koe. Thank you very much for your evidence that you have presented.

JC 10 JR JC JR 15

JC 20 JR JC Trans WAIATA 25 OK

Ko te reo o te krero kia puta, kia koutou n te tepu. O te tini o ng tpuna a Hone Kngi a Muriwai Kngi e aha r. A te w pea, e krero te krero an te Judge me te tikanga te pono tn koutou. So begin here the words of the descendants of Muriwai, Hone Kngi, O Judge. Mr Pou? Sir, you will have noticed there was a provision within the evidence thats just been presented about mixed marriages, that was directed because we understand Mr Hone Harawiras in the audience today, so acknowledging his strong Hokianga links. The next witness is Mr Oneroa Pihema, sir, we have only got about five, maybe seven minutes before the morning break, but perhaps it would be good to get him up and introduce himself before he starts his presentation. Which he does have a brief, sir, but his presentation will be

Trans 30 JC JP

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a little bit interactive as he moves around up the front in front of these taonga and stuff. OP 5 Kia ora. Ara tnei te piki nei, tnei te kake nei tnei ttou nui ka t te rewarewa, ka t te kawakawa, ko te kawakawa i runga nei i a koe te whatunui o Rongo. Te Waonui a Tane ka whakakiikii ka whakakaakaa ki a Moerewa r. Ko aua kupu ko mtou ko Matara, ko Nukutawhiti, ko te Papa Taureka, ko Morenuku ko Morekareka, ko Moreka Tukuwhero, ko Toi. Ko Upa Ko Rauruku ko Toko te Rangi, ko Tangirau, Te Rangi te Mumuki, Te Rangi Tauwhana, ko Hekenga ko Papa, ko Marara te Ika taua Rangi, ko Te Awa ko Rakei te Tama ki te R, ko Pohi Monariki, Ko Tauroka Rahiri. Ka moe a Rahiri ki a Uti, ka puta ko Uenuku Kawareka moe arahi i a Whakaruru ka puta ko Koharau. Ka moe a Koharau i a Otanga ka puta ko [INDISTINCT] ko Tpoto. Ka moe a Tupoto i a Kawe, ka puta ko ka moe a Kairau i a Waimirirangi, ka puta ko Tamatea, ka moe a Tamatea i a Tiare, ka puta ko Kiringangahau, ka moe a Kiringangahau i te Ao Karere, ka puta ko Maruwhenua. Ka moe a Maruwhenua i a Makena, ka puta ko Te Kukuwhakamoe, ko te Kuku Pai o Tatai, ka puta mai ko Te P. Ka moe a Te P i a Ngmotu, ka puta ko Porau, ka moe a Porau i a Ngarimu, ka puta ko Rihi, ka moe a Hohepa Otene Pura, ko ia ttahi o ng rangatira e hainatia te Tiriti o Waitangi i runga te hap o te Uri o Ngahoe. Ka puta ko Mahuika, ka moe a Mahuika I a Matutuki ka puta a Hone Tapahia, ka moe a hone Tapahia i a Arikinui Te Moemoea, ka puta Te Awarua, ka moe a Te Awarua i a Wharepoiarangi, ka puta ko Matiu ka moe a Matiu i a Kiritiana, ara ka puta te kaikrero e t atu nei ko Te Oneroa. N reira, e tika e mihi ana ki a ttou. No te mea ka puta, kia mhio koutou ki ahau, ana me te ptai ko wai koutou e te rangatira ko wai koutou? I ptaitia tnei krero mai te timatanga, i te w kia mhio ai ttou. N reira e te roopu whakamana i te Tiriti e Kaiwhakaw, tn koutou. Tn koutou, tn ttou. Heoi an tnei hei tmatanga o ng krero e pa ana ki te whakaputahanga me te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kua whariki nei i ng taonga o ttou mtua tpuna i knei, maku e whakamrama te w pehea te hohonutanga o ng taonga, otira me Te Whakaputanga me te Tiriti o Waitangi. N reira e ttou ma, e ng waka wairua, tnei e mihi ana ki a koutou. Kia aroha mai i ng whare koutou o aku krero e pa ana ki ng hairi, haere mai ki te paipera tapu inaanei e mahiatia e te Kwanatanga i ng mihinare te paipera tapu kia riro ai ng taonga o knei ttou e t ana e whakarongo ana ki a koutou e kkiri i ng krero. Haere atu te wero, ng ekenga o te wero ki te Kwanatanga, mai te timatanga o tauiwi, tat mai ki Aotearoa nei. Koin k te hhonutanga o aku krero e te Taraipiunara e te Kwana, he krero wairua m o ttou mtua tpuna. E krero wairua k, e kii penei pea te krero, kaua te pukapuka e timata i waenganui ngari timata mai i te timatatanga tat mai ki te whakamutunga, e kii ana koutou ttou katoa, me tmata mai kahore ng krero e pa ana t atu i te 1835, me te 1840 me tmata mai r an, n reira, tnei i te whakarppoto i ng krero e mihi ana ki ng 14

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kaikrero o te ao whnui, rtou ng kaikrero, ng tohunga, i krerotia mai te wiki tuatahi, te wiki tuarua. He krero e hoki ana ngari, me tmata au i knei, mai i te timatanga o to ttou mtua tpuna, e heke mai i ng waka ngari ko te whakapono k, i hari mai i runga te tina, i runga i te kaipuke, koia tnei te ngako o te krero o ttou m, o tnei te tuatahi, t atu tn, e ptai ana au ki te Kwanatanga i a Anaru, haere mai, t mai koe. Trans [Speaker introduces his evidence with an introductory chant] And whakapapa descending from Kupe down to Toi and descending whakapapa down to Puhi Moana Ariki and down to Kaharau and descending to Tpoto who married Kawe, descending to Waimirirangi, Tamatea and descending Tutepa and whakapapa descending to Hhepa Otene Pura who signed The Treaty of Waitangi on behalf of the hap of Ngahoe, and begat Mahunga and they begat Hone Tapahia who married Iara Te Moemoe and they begat Te Auarua and descending unto the speaker who stands before you, Te Oneroa and so greetings to one and all, now that you know who I am and the question who are you? Who are you? I ask this question from the commencement of our Week 1 and hopefully in time we will learn the answer, greetings to the Waitangi Tribunal and the members and to the Judge, and I commence my evidence pertaining to He Whakaputanga and Te Triti o Waitangi and the treasures of our ancestors are arrayed here, in time I will explain the depth of the relationship to He Whakaputanga and Te Triti. And so to the people here, greetings everyone. If any of you are hurt by some of my evidence pertaining to the church, not with the Holy Bible but the actions of the government and the missionaries, they manipulated the Bible to take our treasures and here we are trying to restore some of them. This is not a challenge to you, but a challenge to the government from the first time that the tauiwi arrived in Aotearoa, that is where the heart the kernel of my evidence is aimed at. Our ancestors spoke of spiritual things in their time. The book does not commence halfway through but rather at the beginning, so we should commence at the beginning, 1835 and 1940, in 1840 no, they should commence at the commencement. And so I am here to pracee the evidence of others and I acknowledge the experts in Week 1 and Week 2, but I must commence there, from the time that our ancestors who came on the Waka, but the belief and the faith that was brought on by a steamer, by a sailing craft and that is the kernel of my evidence. I ask the Crown, Anaru can you come forth please, Anaru. I have something for you, dont look at the Judge. JC OP Mr Pou, will get - - Haere mai, I would like to - - -

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Well get Mr Merito to pass it over to him. Hoatu ki a Danny Mana i hoatu kia Mr Irwin. Just as far as things go, sir, I can assure the Tribunal and the Crown that my witnesses will not pose a threat to anybody if there is that - - Kore, kore Kahore, kahore, he krero tnei i runga i te tikanga me te pono. They are in Hokianga, sir, and they will be protected under the embrace. Put your hand on the Bible and repeat after me do you tell the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth repeat after me, what do you say, so may God - - Mr Pou, I think Mr Irwin may be in a difficult situation here to do that. Dont look at him, Im talking to you. To the honourable gentleman I am only here to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Im a little apprehensive as to what your next question or statement to me might be, but Im certainly here to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Kia ora, tn koe. Tn koe, bring my Bible back now. The next question I will ask after kapu t, I will give you a chance to have a breather and a kapu t for the next question, e te Kaiwhakaw, time for us to break for a kapu t.

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Kua riri te kapu t? It is ready, otherwise, Mr Pou, we can continue for the next 10 minutes or we will come back early?

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Oh, eh? Mr Pihema, people are starting to leave. What we will do though is we will break now, but I would like to come back a little bit earlier. Also, Mr Pou, can indicate now that we will probably look to have a 45 minute lunch rather than an hour lunch? Yes, sir. One other thing that Id just like to mention, sir, is the brief of evidence to be put before the Tribunal after the finish of Mr Pihemas evidence is document #C40. Its a brief on behalf of Tonga Cecilia Paati. Shes got in her brief that her father has told her that its the womens place is to speak outside the whare and not inside. However, she is here to answer any questions, shes a matriarch of Hokianga. Her evidence is about the stories that her father told her. Her father grew up at the feet of Mohi Tawhai and spoke about The Treaty, so there are some key things. And also, she discusses the 1940 celebrations and Whina Cooper affirming that when you are in Ngpuhi you do things in the Ngpuhi way.

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Its a short brief, sir, but I would just like the Tribunal to consider those words and to consider whether or not they have any questions so that we can know how to go forward and then comeback, sir. JC 5 JP Thank you. We will take the morning tea break. Thank you, sir.

Morning Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 2 STARTS
Hearing Resumes 10 PT Mr Pihema, just before you proceed again into your evidence, I did take the opportunity to have a bit of a talk with Mr Pou and Mr Irwin and while your questioning of Mr Irwin is entertaining, we would seek that you refrain from asking him questions. He is not actually it is the Crown that is on trial here, not Mr Irwin, and he will be bringing his witnesses and you will have the opportunity to ask his witnesses all the questions you want. Kia ora Mr Pihema. Kia ora. So let me rephrase then, he Kaiwahakaw. E te karauna, e mihi ana ki a koe. E te karauna, heoi an, tnei ko te ptai i muri i a koe o t kawenata i runga i te paipera, heoi an, kia penei te ptai ki te Karauna. He aha te kwanatanga o te Karauna? I acknowledge you and commend you. But the question let me ask the Crown, what is the covenant of the Crown? What is the Crowns covenant or the governments covenant, krero mai. JC 25 Well, as I have just said, Mr Pihema, Mr Irwin will be calling his witnesses. There are three or four of them and they will be providing that information. Its not for the lawyer to answer those questions. It will be the witnesses who answer that in time. Kia ora. Tera pea me haere ttou i ta ttou kaupapa, heoi an, te tuatahi e mihi ana e ttou ma, ng whaaro nei he huri whakamuri k ana kia aroha mai ki te whakaahua a Maturata, me Ratana. Me Ratana te mngai Piriwiritua. N te mea, ko te Karauna ko te Kwanatanga k me huri atu ki a rtou kia koutou ng whakaahua nei, n te mea kei a mtou kei muri i ng hap hei tuar ake i ng rangatira a Maturata me Ratana. Ng hap, ng whanau kei muri e titiro ana ki etehi o ttou rangatira ko te Karauna kei muri e tuara ake n, tnei me anga atu nei ng whakaahua ki a koutou. Ehara ki muri, ngari kia titiro mai koutou, anei ng krero e pa ana ki ng kaiwhakaahua nei. N reira inanahi r, ka haere mai ttou i runga te huarahi, ka krero ng hitori mai i Maunga Taniwha. N He rppototanga i ng whakaaro kia anga m wai ttou mai a Kupe ana i mhio e whrikitia nei i runga te pahi. Ng arotanga kia puta mai m te maunga a maunga Taniwha, tahi ng pou krero te wharetapu o Ngapuhi, ana i raro ake ko mtou nei ng hap ko te 17

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Kohatu Taka, ko Tuhi Mahoe, ko Te Urukopara, Te Raho Whakaari, Te Hutai, Ngti Kiore, me te uri o Te Aho. A ng roto whanaungatanga mai tera maunga whakah krero m to ttou mtua tpuna a Maunga Taniwha. I pehea ai i ingoatia ai tn maunga ko Maunga Taniwha e o ttou mtua tpuna. N kua rongo nei koutou inanahi r i runga te waka anei a ttou kua tau mai r, ki te krero te kaupapa Te Whakaputanga. Te Whakaputanga mai e kii anei i roto i ng huatanga te tatmai tanga i roto i ng pkihitanga (trading) straight to the point, trading. Ka inoitia e o ttou mtua tpuna, he haki, e krerotia nei e te taenga mai o ng hui o mua, ko te mea k i haere mai te haki and along came Joes. Ng kaipuke o rtou ma, ka inoitia e o ttou mtua tpuna te rangatiratanga he haki ka homaitia te haki ki kneiki. Ara kite koe i nei i runga i Aotearoa n ko te mate k o te haki nei, i haere mai ng kngitanga o ng kngitanga, ka hoki ana au mai i te tmatanga, ka krerotia e ahau inianei r. Well, lets go to the heart of the matter. Firstly, I would like to acknowledge everyone here. The portraits before us, they should here is the photo of Matiu Rata and Rtana Tahu Potiki Rtana, the mngai of Piriwiritua. Because it was the Crown and the government should turn their faces away from you should be facing you because the hap are behind them, acting as support and providing support for Matiu Rata and Ratana. The hap and the whnau are behind them and in support of them. Now gazing up the other portraits, the Crown is behind them so that their photos should be pointing towards you, not behind you, so that you can see that the evidence will be pertaining to these two people, these portraits. Yesterday we came here on the road and histories were given from Maunga Taniwha and just to summarise that so that we can go forward, from Kupe these were explained on the bus so that the name Maunga Taniwha came as one of the punas of the sacred house of Ngpuhi and we, the hap, Te Kohatutakutanga te iwi Mahoe, Te Uri Kpura, Te Rongowhakairi, Te Ihutai, Ngti Kiore, te uri o Taonui and in our connections from that significant mountain, Maunga Taniwha, how that mountain was named Maunga Taniwha by our ancestors. Now, you heard yesterday the history given and here we are into our house to discuss He Whakaputanga. In the trading our elders asked for a flag of trading flag. The flag and the sailing vessels that our ancestors called for a flag for themselves and the flag was given for Aotearoa. The problem with this flag is the kings came and now returning back to what I spoke of yesterday. Mai Ihoa, tat mai kia Keina me Apera, ka patua e Keina i a Apera ka puta mai te krero a Ihoa, ko wai ng toto e tangi ake nei i te whenua ki a ia. Ko wai ng toto? Ana te haratanga tat mai ki te Karaiti i runga i ng phaehaetanga o ng kngitanga o tera whi o te ao. Kaore i whakatea te karaiti tnei e arohaina m te Karaiti. An ko te toto e rere ana i te whenua, mai i taua w tat mai ki tnei w, ko te whenua te take e hui tahi nei ttou. Ko ng taonga a Twhirimatea a te whenua a Tangaroa e ng taonga o a ttou mtua tpuna. E rere tonu nei e kiia nei te toto ngari, tautoko ake ng poropititanga tnei o ttou whaea Apera Taonui. 18

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I kii ai i whakaputangia ng krero wairua, mai Te Whakaputanga tat mai hara ko Te Whakaputanga 1835. He kikokikotanga tn. ngari ko Te Whakaputanga k, ko Te Whakaputanga wairua i krerotia ai e Kei me Apera, e Ihoa ko wai tnei toto e tangi ake nei i runga i te whenua? Heke ana tonu nei ara te Karaiti i roto i ng phaehaetanga o ng Kngitanga i kauhautia e te Karaiti, te rongopai i runga i te mata o te whenua, he mngai i runga i te mata o te whenua. ngari i runga i te phaehaetanga, ka khurutia e te Karaiti e te tangata, e rere nei te toto, koinei te toto i krerotia e o ttou poropiti. Ka tat mai ki ng koropiko Taonui tera. Ko Taonui tera. Otira ko Te Maihro tera. Ko Whiti me Tohu tera. Ko Te Kooti o Rangi tera. I krerotia ai i poropiti ai te tatmaitanga ki ttahi tangata Mori i roto i ng krerotanga o Karaipitore, o te wairuatanga o te Kairaiti i tat mai ki runga i a Tahuptiki Wiremu Ratana 1918. Kia ttuki ai ng krero wairua o rtou ma. From God to Kane and Abel, Kane murdered Abel and the Lord said whose blood is spilt on the ground that cries to me? and that was the sin that came down unto Christ because of the jealousies of the phoresies Christ was crucified and our love extends towards the Christ and the blood that flowed on the land. From that time unto this time the land is the reason that we are all meeting, coming to the lands of Aotearoa. Those are the treasures of our ancestors and the blood is still flowing. But Aperehama Taonui prophesised and he gave his spiritual signs from He Whakaputanga and until the Triti, not He Whakaputanga 1835, that is just the embodiment of the actions, but He Whakaputanga is the expression of the spirit as referred to between Kane and Abel and the lords word whose blood is it that flows on the land? and unto the time of the Christ, when he spread the good word throughout the land, but because of the jealousies, Christ was crucified by the people and his blood was shed and then unto the prophets of the Mori to Taonui and Te Maiharoa and Whiti and Tohu and Te Kooti a Rikirangi and they all spoke and they all prophesised the advent coming of a Mori man person and in the scriptures the spirit of Christ came upon Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana in 1918 so that he could achieve and embody the prophecies of those who went before him. Ana te ture wairua, te kohu o ng tpuna te ture wairua; te mtua, te tama, te wairua tapu, ng karere ng ana hera pono me te mngai. Te Tangata kikokiko i krerotia e o ttou mtua tpuna, ng poropiti m ng matekite o taua w. hara tnei te whakaiti i ng hhi kore, ngari, e krero o runga ng Whakaputanga krero mai r an. I krerotia e rtou, ana, te ture wairua. T atu i tn, ka hoki, ka whhtia e Ratana te mngai te ture tangata e p ana ki te Kwanatanga, e p ana ki te muiuitanga o te whenua e p ana ki te Tiriti o Waitangi, ng whenua i krerotia nei e ttou he take huihuitia nei e ttou tae noa ko te take, ko te whenua. I pekehia te whenua kia aha ai i pehea te riro ai i a taua i te whenua? Maku e kii atu n ng mihinare o taua w, o rtou tkinotanga i mahia te paipera tapu kia riro ai te whenua. Kia riro ai te whenua. Kei knei te hhonutanga hei tirotirotanga m ttou, m koutou e te Kwana, e te Karauna e te roopu whakamana i te Tiriti o Waitangi. T atu i tn, 19

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ka hpaitia e Tahuptiki Wiremu Ratana te mngai o Piriwiritua. I ahau e t nei ko Piriwiritua ka wwahi k tnana e whnga koutou. Ka tohatohatia ki te ao whnui, ki te ao o Aotearoa, ka hpai ki a ia te mana motuhake o te Tiriti o Waitangi. N Mui i tango te whenua, e tauingoa te tangata nei, te tuatahi ko Ratana, tua rua ko te Mngai, tuatoru ko Piriwiritua. Ka tohatoha ia ko te Arepa Omeka Piriwiritua Hamuera. Ko Te Arepa o te Hauuru, o te Hautanga, o te Omeka o te Hauuru, Hamuera te Taraiwhiti. Piriwiritua ki te Noota, Taitokerau. Anei mai a Pare Paikea ma haki o mrama ng kt o tnei mramatanga, anei te Piriwiritua a Maturatae, e hpaitia te kaupapa o te Tiriti o Waitangi n Muitanga e krerotia e te mngai o Piriwiritua o Ratana, n koia kei kona k te hohonutanga ko te wairuatanga k o a mtou mtua tpuna tuku iho te Kawenata wairua ana hoki an, ko wai ng toto e tangi ake nei i runga te whenua? Kei k k, kei runga k te hangamaitia ng taonga ki o ttou mtua tpuna hei whriki, hei kawata, hei taonga ma rtou. The sign of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the angels and the mngai and our ancestors spoke of the prophecies. I am not here to debate the faiths, no. But rather I speak of the prophecies from the old time unto this day, the spiritual laws. And Rtana delved into the laws of the man pertaining to the government, pertaining to the problems with the land and pertaining to The Treaty of Waitangi. The land is the reason we are meeting here, that is the only matter that brings us here, is the land. How did the land come to be lost? I say to you it was the missionaries of the time, it was their desecrations. They manipulated the Bible to take the land. So that is an area that we need to delve deeply into, the government and the Waitangi Tribunal. Tahu Potiki, Wiremu Rtana, the head of Piriwiratua, I stand here as Piriwiratua. I will quarter my body and send it, distribute it to the four corners of New Zealand and I will praise The Treaty of Waitangi and uplift the ailments upon the land. First was Rtana, second it was the mngai and third was Piriwiritua. So the children were Arepa was on the east and the south and Omeka was on the west, Hamuera was on the east and Piriwiritua was in the north. From Jack Ormond and Paikea and the other members, Rtana, here is the Piriwiritua, Matiu Rata who carried the mantle for The Treaty of Waitangi and the ailments that I referred to and Rtana referred to. And that is where the depth of our ancestors is implicit, and the spiritual covenant, we must return to that question, whose blood is it that cries to me that has been shed in the land? It is in the heavens, it was the creator who gave the treasures to our ancestors as a food supply, as a storehouse for them. ngari ma te tat mai o tauiwi m, ka tino ngarongaro haere te whenua, ka tae mai ki te Tiriti o Waitangi, anei a tauiwi me o ttou mtua tpuna penei k ng tikanga, penei k. Ma te Karauna, m te Kwana rnei e tiaki o rtou i o rtou tangata, ngari ka tae atu ki tnei w, ko wai kei runga? Penei ana n, ko ttou te ao Mori kei raro, ko te Kwanatanga kei runga. hara k te hua o te Tiriti o Waitangi e penei k ana orite tonu ana ngari ka puritia te mana motuhake te Tiriti o Waitangi e o ttou mtua tpuna. ngari e hurihuritia ng krero a Te Tiriti i roto i te 20

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kikokikotanga, ngari o te wairuatanga ka noho tonu i a rtou e krerotia ai i o ttou poropititanga e te mngai a Piriwiritua. Kei k k ng he aha te take e hui nei ttou, krero ake ttou m Te Whakaputanga. E kii ana ahau ko Te Whakaputanga wairua k he Whakaputanga wairua k. N te mea k, e hoa m, anei te kaipuke i haere mai i twhi, he aha? Titiro mai knei ko te ripeka, titiro ki knei ko te ripeka, titiro ki knei ko te ripeka, titiro ki knei ko te ripeka. Te ripekatanga hei ripekatanga ng tttanga o ng pehutanga i whawhai ai a o ttou mtua tpuna ki te Kwanatanga. Whawhai pakanga. I tat mai te mramatanga taenga ka mutu, ka kii ai te krero o te wairua tapu ki a rtou m, e Ratana ka tae mai ahau ki a koe te [INDISTINCT]. Karauna ktia au te ao, he rapu trangawaewae mk kia haere mai ki koutou te iwi Mori, te iwi iti hei trangawaewae m koutou. I tohatohatia e te wairuatanga te Karaiti, haere kau ana kai oti pai o te mtua, te tama me te wairua tapu, ng karere o ng ana hera pono. Whakaorangia o rtou iwi te iwi Mori i o rtou muiuitanga, e maha ng muiuitanga i toa. Rtou i arahi i a ia ka kii ana he mngai o te mata o te whenua m te w tuarua. Aroha mai m te w tuarua, ehara te mea e hakat ana kaore. ngari, e krero ana ng krero i puta mai te wairua tapu ki a Ratana i te w i Whanganui. I puta mai i runga te karere me te wai i te takutai moana i te w i Whanganui. But on the arrival of Tauiwi to this country, the land was lost and then arriving at The Treaty of Waitangi we had the flags of tauiwi and our ancestors. This is how those flags should be. The Crown should look after their own people, but unto this day who is on top I ask you, who is on top and the Mori people and the Mori world is below and that was not how The Treaty of Waitangi was constructed. It was supposed to be equal. Our elders held fast to the mana of The Treaty of Waitangi, but the words of The Treaty were manipulated in the works, but in the spiritual realm it was maintained by our ancestors in the prophecies by Te Mngai and Piriwiritua. What is the reason we are meeting here? I say He Whakaputanga is a spiritual connection; it is a connection of spirits. Because, ladies and gentlemen, here is the flag, that flooded on the boats that came. Look upon the cross, on all the flags there is crosses on all of them representing the battles that were fought by our ancestors to the government. Only until enlightenment came, then fighting ceased and the Holy Spirit said to Rtana Rtana, I have come to you, I have circumnavigated the world to find a place for me to stand and I come to you, to the Mori people, to the small people as a place to stand for myself. The Spirit of Christ said Go and spread the good word in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the true angels and revive the health of the Mori people for there are many ailments afflicting the Mori people and until then you will be called a mngai upon the land. So this Holy Spirit came upon Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana at Whanganui. N i reira, kei kona te hhonutanga o ng krero e te Karauna, te Tiriti o Waitangi, e kawe ana te wairua k Te Whakaputanga te kawe wairua k. 21

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He kawe ana te wairua k. N reira, heoi an tnei e t ake ki te he aha te take e ttou e krero nei Te Whakaputanga me Te Tiriti, tnei te karanga ake ki tnei o ttou whaea, ki te toha ttou e krero ki a moe a koutou. T atu ki a hora nei? 5 It came to him in the form of the waves upon the ocean. There is the depth of this that we speak of, Te Triti o Waitangi is a spiritual covenant and He Whakaputanga is a spiritual compact. So I am standing here. What is the reason that we are talking about He Whakaputanga and Te Triti? Perhaps in time we will call upon one of our ladies to speak of this. The violations of Te Triti o Waitangi, krero mai. ?? To the Honourable, the speaker, members of the House of Representatives of the dominion of New Zealand and parliament. Assembled the petition of Tahu Potiki, Wiremu Rtana and others of Rtana P, Whanganui. Humbly showith, tuatahi that your petitioner, Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana, a Mori of full blood, of Rtana P near Whanganui in the provincial district of Wellington in the dominion of New Zealand was, by requisition, signed by members of the Mori people of New Zealand numbering 30,128 of more duly elected. By such requisitions your petitioner, Tahu Potiki, Wiremu Rtana, was duly empowered by the loyals to the representative and leader for them all in all matters relating to the Triti o Waitangi. Two, that The Treaty of Waitangi in its infancy was held with paramount respect by the different governments of the past, namely the imperial and colonial governments. Appended as follows are some of the existing records regarding The Treaty of Waitangi. (a) The Treaty of Waitangi was signed at Waitangi on the sixth day of February in the year of our lord, 1,840. (b) Governor Hobson wrote to Sir George Gibbs that The Treaty was signed by 46 head chiefs in the presence of at least 500 of inferior degree. He also deputed British officers to carry The Treaty throughout the islands of New Zealand. Major Bunbury of the 60th Regiment was spatially enjoined while engaged in obtaining the signatures of chiefs to offer a solemn pledge that the most perfect good faith would be kept by Her Majestys government, that their property, their rights and privileges would be most fully preserved. (c) Sir George Gibbs transmitted The Treaty of Waitangi to Lord John Russell, the secretary of state, who succeeded Lord Normandy. Lord John Russell replied that Her Majestys government entirely approved of the measures which you adopted and of the manner in which they were carried into effect by Governor Hobson. Three, that Lord Stanley who, in Sir Robert Peeles ministry, was become secretary of the state answering to a letter from the New Zealand company in 1843 said that he was not prepared as Her Majestys secretary of state to join with a company in setting aside The Treaty of Waitangi after obtaining the advantages guaranteed by it, even though it might be able it was made with naked savages. Although it might be treated by lawyers, as a place worth a device for amusing and pacifying savages for the moment.

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Lord Stanley entertains a different view of the respect due to obligations contracted by the Crown of England. In his final answer to the demands of the company must be that as long as he has the honour of serving the Crown he will not admit that any person or any government acting in the name of Her Majesty can contract a legal, moral or honorary obligation to despoil others of their lawful and equitable rights. At a later date, 13th of June 1845, Lord Stanley wrote to the Governor of New Zealand. In the name of the Queen I utterly deny that any Treaty entered into and ratified by Her Majestys command was or could have been made in the spirit, thus is ingenuous of far as purpose unworthy. You will honourably and scrupulously fulfil the conditions of The Treaty of Waitangi. Four, that Sir Robert Peele, speaking in the House of Parliament in the year 1845, asked if the House could resist the appeal made by the Ngpuhi chief, Waka Nene, to the equity and honour of the English nation. I will say, he added, that if ever there was a case where the stronger party was obliged by its precision in respect to the demands of the weaker, if ever a powerful country was bound by its engagements with the weaker, it was the engagement contracted under such circumstances with these native chiefs. Five, that the great chief, Te Wherowhero, and his friends winged the words to the Queen. O Madam (the Queen), hark unto our words, the words of all the chiefs of Waikato, May God grant that you may holdfast our word and we, your word, forever. Madam, listen. News is going about here that your ministers are talking of taking away the land of the natives. But we do not believe this news because we heard from the first governor that the disposal of the land is with ourselves and from the second governor we heard the same word and from this governor they have all said the same. Therefore, we write to you that you may be kind to us, to your friends that love you. Write your thoughts to us that peace may prevail among the native of these islands. The result was that Te Wherowhero and his brother chiefs were informed that there was no foundation for the rumours to which they allude and that it was never intended that The Treaty of Waitangi should be violated by dispossessing the tribes who are parties to it. On the contrary, Her Majesty has always directed that The Treaty should be scrupulously and religiously observed. JP Sir, this is a petition that was presented. I do not have any copies but we will seek leave to file. You will seek leave to file it at a later date? I will seek leave to file it, sir, through the evidence of Mr Pihema, but perhaps I can pass it up to the Crown to have a look at now and then it can be passed to the Tribunal. Yes.

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We have got copies, sir. We will be filing them. Lucky youre organised eh, Mr Pihema. Honour, while you are there, would you take these copies so they cant say they have not got a copy, of the violations of The Treaty. So I would like to call my next witness up, your Honourable he rangatira. Yes, my evidence but this is my lawyer, grass grown lawyer, home grown lawyer, kia ora, tukana kia koe, come closer. Krero mai. Tn koe. 1840, Mori owned 66,400,000 acres of land. In 1841 land claims ordinance stated lands not actually occupied or used by Mori belong to the Crown. This is a contradiction of Article 2 of The Treaty. 1844, Fitzroy dropped the pre emption clause of Article 2 in The Treaty and allowed private sales to take place. 1846, Governor Grey abolished the protectorate department which had responsibility of protecting the Mori rights and gave the New Zealand company the exclusive right of pre-emption. In 1852 Mori ownership land reduced to 34,000,000 acres. In the 12 years since 1840 almost half of the Mori land had been lost. In 1852 the Constitution Act saw the establishment of a provincial government, only males over 21 who had individual title to property of a certain value were entitled to vote. Very few Moris were able to do this. 1860, Mori owned land was reduced to 21,400,000 acres. In 1962 the Native Lands Act, designed to break down Mori communal ownership of land. The Land Court was set up to individualise title and amendment to the Act meant Mori owners could sell to anyone. This breached the preemption clause in article two. 1853, Governor Grey invades Waikato, the Suppression of Rebellion Act. No right of trial before imprisonment. Its intention was to punish certain Aboriginal tribes of the colony for rebelling against the Crown. The same year the Settlement Act, over 3,000,000 acres of Mori land was confiscated to pay for the wall. 1864, the Native Reserve Act. All remaining land reserved for Mori use was put under settler control and 1865 the Native Land Court, designed to determine ownership of Mori owners had spent many months in town waiting to have their cases heard, if they did not show up they lost the right to the land. This caused many of them to build up large debts and they had to sell a lot of their land to pay such debts. Mori owners also had to pay for the survey work that was being done. Many Mori owners sold land rather than go through the humiliating experience of Land Court sittings.

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1866, the Oyster Fisheries Act prevented Mori from fishing commercially. Mori commercial fishing enterprises at the time went broke and they and to sell their land to meet debts.

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1867, the Mori Representation Act, four Mori seats in parliament established, a response to Pkeh fear that Mori who had by now a majority under the property qualification clause of the 1852 Constitution Act and a number of electorates could gain a majority in government. 5 1867, the Native Schools Act was passed extending the parameters of the 1858 Act. These schools would assist in the process of assimilation. In 1869, the new Mori version of The Treaty was requested by the government. Kwanatanga in Article 1 is to be replaced by ng mana katoa o rangatiratanga, changing the meaning. 1871, the government stipulation of the instruction in native schools had to be in English. 1877, The Treaty is declared a nullity by Judge Prendergast and the Bishop of Wellington versus the Wairarapa case. Legislation was introduced to allow direct purchase of Mori land. This was another breach of article two. 1879, an amendment by Grey of the Native Land Act made it easier for small farmers to get to Mori land. The government sabotaged the commission that was set up to investigate land confiscated in Taranaki. 1879, the Peace Preservation rule, one years hard labour for Mori people who refused to leave their abodes. 1880, the Mori Prisoners Act. 200 Mori arrested in Taranaki for preventing the surveying of confiscated land, kept in prison for an indefinite period without trial. 1880, The West Coast Settlement Act. Any Mori in Taranaki could be arrested without a warrant and jailed for two years with hard labour if they built anything or in any way hindered the surveying of property. 25 1881, Native Reserves Act. The control of Mori Reserves is taken over by the public trustee. 1886, Native Lands Administration Act; Rejected the traditional rights of communal ownership, Mori land was given over to small groups of trustees who had the right under this act to sell it. 1887, Native Land Act. Large scale direct purchase of Mori land at Bastion Point, Auckland, appropriate for defence purposes. JP Sir, you have got a list there. I think everybody now gets the feel of the legislative amendments that have been made and changes that were usurping the tinorangatiratanga that was protected within The Treaty. The Tribunal can now go through those, alongside with the Crown. I leave it now for you, Oneroa, to - - Ko ttou te tono ki a Wiremu, Tomokia Wiremu te whare o te tipua o Kngi Hori, tama a Eruera mokopuna r i a Wikitoria, nna nei tuku mai te Tiriti o Waitangi, me te mana motuhake o te iwi Mori, e kope hua nei e te Kwanatanga, tautokotia au e ng Mori o te tomingi o Niu Tireni, ka heke te whenua ka ngaro taku manu ki te puriuri ki te ptangotango ki te anarai ana e twhera i Poneke, ka heke te whenua ka ngaro tk mana, ki te puriuri, ki te ptangotango. Ki te narai ana, e twhera ai i Poneke. Ai

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N reira tn, heoi an te waiata i whakaarotia hei hapai a Tahu Ptiki Wiremu Ratana i runga i tana matoru a rtou ma, i haere i runga te matoru ki te ao ki te Kuini, ki te Kngi, ki te titiro ki te whakaahuatanga ng kaupapa e pa ana ki te Tiriti o Waitangi, kua pehupehutia nei e te Kwanatanga. An te waiata kua tukuna hei knaki i te kaupapa n te mea, i knei te kaupapa i hoki mai ana ttou ko te whenua, te whenua te oranga o te tangata o ttou te ao Mori, i rongo koutou Trans Grandchild of Victoria, who gave forth The Treaty of Waitangi and the mana motuhake up to the Mori people and supported by the dominion of New Zealand and the land is lost and so I am lost unto the den of the lions at Wellington and the land is gone, so is my mana to the darkness, to the dark that takes everything away. Now, that song was used by Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana who went on an international tour and visited the Queen to discuss The Treaty of Waitangi that has been compromised and tampered with by the Crown. We must return to the land, the land is the sustenance of the people. We, Mori people... OP ... you heard the violations of the Treaty of Waitangi, 66 million down to where, 3 million, eh, kei roto ng ringaringa kei roto ng ringaringa a Mori ma. Kei hea te toenga? Pehea ai ttou i ora ai, i ora ai te whenua? Pehea te kapata kei hea te kapata i krerotia nei e o ttou rangatira, nau mai te whenua, ko wai e tangi ake nei o te whenua ng toto ki ahau. Kei hea te takutai moana? Kei hea te takutai moana i tnei waka e [INDISTINCT] i tnei atu hui o te Kwanatanga? Kei hea te taonga nei i knei n, nera, ngari kua tae mai ki knei kei raro i te kaipuke o Tauri, kei hea te tikanga o tera? Ana te whenua, ara te whenua e krerotia nei, a to ttou krero ki hea, me hoki mai an te whenua ki te whakapotonga rtou o to ttou mtua tpuna ki te Tiriti o Waitangi. I kii ai te tohunga e Piriwiritua, ka hoki te mngai ki roto te ture wairua i ahau i t nei, ko Piriwiritua, ko Piri, ka wiri ki t o te one pango, kia tae r an ki te one whero, ng toto o to ttou mtua tpuna kua pakanga ki te Kwanatanga, he aha ai te take? Ko ng taonga. N reira, te takutai moana e hoa ma, te tino kaupapa kei waenganui i a ttou. Ko te Tiriti te Waitangi Te Whakaputanga o te take o ttou kei knei, n te mea e ngarongaro tonu ana i roto i ng ture i krerotia e panuitia i tnei to ttou rangatira. Kaore ko te Tiriti wairua o ttou mtua tpuna k, ng hap whanau, ng hap whanau kei knei te hhonutanga i hainatia e o ttou whanau ng rangatira o ttou hap i runga i te hap whanau, ng hap.

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In the hands of the Mori, where is the rest, where is the balance? How can we sustain ourselves? What about the provisions, the food supplies that was spoken of by our leaders from the lands? Who will weep for the blood shed on the land? Where is the seas, where is the coastal areas? They are under the laws of the government. The treasures are now under the mantle of foreigners. Here is the land; here is the soil that we speak of. Although what matters we speak of, we must return to the land from the time of He Whakaputanga and The Treaty of Waitangi, Piriwiritua says Rtana has returned to the spiritual realm and we must acknowledge the lands and until we reach the red part of the blood stained soil, only then will our dreams be requited and what is the taonga, greatest of all and the takutai moana (the foreshore) is a great thing of importance to us. He Whakaputanga and Te Triti are the matters that bring us here because the laws of the land are compromising and violating The Treaty. No, the Treaty is the Spiritual Treaty that the whnau and the hap, that is where the depth of The Treaty is, signed by our hap and our whnau, representing the hap, representing their whnau. N reira, heoi an tnei e ttou m, e te Karauna, e te Taraipiunara, hora nei ana kua takoto te take kei mua i a koutou, heoi an te whakamoemiti ki a koutou kia whai mramatanga koutou, kia tirotiro te hhonutanga o tnei o ttou Te Whakaputanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ka takoto te ringa ki runga te paipera tapu ka kitea ttou mea e whai mana mena he whai mana, i runga te tika me te pono, i riro whenua me hoki whenua mai ka krero a ttou mtua tpuna, kei knei k te hhonutanga. Tnei te wero ki a koutou. Me aroha mai. Koutou i wnanga, ng kaikrero i mua i ahau, n reira tnei te whakamutunga o nei o ttou panui. Heoi an, waiho atu ki a Ihoa, hoatu ki a Ihoa, mna i tatari ng kupu hei whakaatutanga ki a koutou, ki a ttou katoa. E ng hap/whanau, e te iwi whnui tonu o Ngapuhi whnui tonu, kia kaha ttou ki te whakakotahi, kaua e tukua te mana motuhake o a ttou mtua tpuna Te Whakaputanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ki te Kwana, kia puritia whkakotahi ehara ki raro i Oneroa, ngari kei raro i a Ihoa ng Mano. So, ladies and gentlemen, Crown and the members of the Tribunal, I have laid down my matter before you and the prayer to you is that enlightenment may come upon you and you can investigate clearly transgressions of The Treaty and He Whakaputanga. Now, the hand has been laid upon the Holy Bible and we shall see if that will come through in truth and light. Land was taken, land should be returned. That is what our ancestors say and that is the kernel, the depth and the focus and that is the challenge to you and extend love to us. I support and endorse the evidence to be proffered after me. I conclude now and leave it up to the lord to sift and deliberate the words spoken so that we can see clearly to the hapu and whanau and to the people of Ngpuhi whnui tonu, be strong, be steadfast and uniting ourselves. Do not cede the mana motukahe of our ancestors to the government. Holdfast, holdfast, not under Oneroa, but under Jehovah of the myriads.

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N reira, puta atu tnei o ttou waiata, ko te Tiriti, ko te Tiriti, o Waitangi, te Tiriti o Aotearoa, hiki toki roa ng hiki toki roa, motuhake rangatiratanga tuku iho. Ko te Tiriti, ko te Tiriti, o Waitangi kia kaha kia mau. 5 Trans N reira huri noa e te rangatira, me pnui koutou... Let the Treaty raise up forever and our rangatiratanga returned to us. Tis The Treaty, tis The Treaty of Waitangi. Be strong and holdfast. If you have any questions? Tn koe, Mr Pihema. He ptai? Sir, it would be most unfair if I ask Mr Pihema questions. Engari te mihi atu ki a koe e p, mai taku tirohanga, n te iwi kei muri i a Mtua Matiu nei kei muri hoki i Tahuptiki Wiremu, n reira, tnei te mihi atu ki a koe ng hau nei whakaahua i huri mai. Tnei te mihi ki a koe, tn koe. Thank you, sir, from my perspective I see the people are solidly behind Matiu Rata and behind Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana. So warmest thanks to you for turning the focus in the right direction. Thank you very much. Tn koe. Mr Pihema, taihoa. E Te Oneroa, tnei r ka mihi ake r ki a koe, ka mihi ake i runga i o krero, te hhonutanga i o krero e whakahuatia ake nei t taua poropiti a Wiremu Ratana me t taua rangatira a Matiu. N reira m te mngai koe hei tautoko. Kia ora. Oneroa, thank you very much. Thank you very much for your evidence, the depth of your evidence and your references to our prophets, Tahu Potiki Wiremu Rtana and our leader, Matiu Rata. So I support you and so thank you, thank you. The last witness for this stanza, sir, was Tonga Paati, but I asked the Tribunal if they had any questions rather than have her present. She is here to answer any questions. She is sitting beside me at the moment now, sir. Mr Irwin, do you have any questions? I have no questions, sir. We have no questions, Mr Pou. She is saying phew, thats a good one, so she is happy to cover. So that ends this stanza, sir, and I will hand you over now to Ms Taurau. Thank you. Kia ora, sir. Ms Taurau for Ngti Korokoro and Ngti Wharara, Te Pouka ng hap o te w hap o te Hokianga nui a Kupe. If we could just take a second while to set the people, kia ora.

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... He mihi mutunga kore te wahap ki a koutou to koutou whakattuki te hui nei kia whai kaupapa mtou. Te whakaaro ki o mtou pou whenua ki runga, kia kite koutou ko te Karauna e [INDISTINCT], e pono tonu te iwi nei. Kei knei koutou ko ng w kua kite mtou ko ng w to mtou tpuna kei eke ki mua ki a koutou. O koutou tuara [INDISTINCT] kua tirohia o koutou. N reira ka t atu nei ki te whakataki thora m o mtou pou krero. O mtou pou whenua nei r ko te tnga a Ngti Korokoro, ana kua tat mai ko te Rkau Thh o Ngti Wharara anei kua tat mai ko ng pou kapua o te Pouka, anei kua tat mai r tahi ko ng puke a kui m, a koro m o ng mtua, [INDISTINCT] e whai ake i ng tohu o te atua. Anei r ko Pimia, anei r ko tn whakatauk ko te pae a Kotene ko te kawa a Rahiri anei ka t, anei ka t, anei ka t.

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We would like to acknowledge Panguru for allowing us this opportunity. So we are here to show that the hap are still alive and vibrant here and the hags of our ancestors are here and to open up the paths for our speakers who will follow us of Ngti Korokoro and Ngti Wharara and Te Pouka and they are here and Te Ramaroa, symbols of God, and the saying Te paia ko te riri te kawa a Rhiri. Kia ora, sir, thank you for that. Just by way of a brief introduction to the next hap kaikrero, Warren Moetara will be speaking first. His document number is C10. Warren is a direct descendant of rangatira, Moetara, signatory to Te Triti o Waitangi. He will be followed by Mr John Klaricich and you would have met Mr Klaricich yesterday at Arai Te Uru and be familiar with him. He is giving hap specific krero on behalf of Moetara, who was a signatory to He Whakaputanga. So without hearing further from me, I will handover to Mr Moetara.

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NG MTEATEA WM 30 Kti r ko te timatanga krero ko te wehi ki Ihoa, ki te matanga o ng whakaaro nui o te timatanga ko te whakaotinga. O te tuatahi kei te wehi ki a ia. E te kaiwhakaw, e ng mema o te roopu whakamana i te Tiriti o Waitangi tn koutou. Hei krero timatanga moku, ko ttahi krero no te Tai o a mtou kaumatua kua ngaro. Tera kaumatua rongonui i waenganui i a mtou a Mori Marsden. Ko nei krero no te w i whakairotia a ia i ng whakairo, ng pou whakairo m te tau rangatira i t ki Waitangi. No ttahi o ng kaiwhakairo a Marnos Nathan, i homai nei ng krero ki a mtou, ka whakatakoto ki mua i o koutou aroaro, te krero nei n te kaumatua nei, n Mori m te wairua m te Tiriti. Anei r te krero: Tauranga kotuku, rerenga tahi, kuaka maranga ki te tahuna korimako pai, ki te kttara, pwaiwaka i kute ai te mate. Te Ihi, te wehi, te mana, te tapu, pai ana ki te pkaitara ki Waitangi, i te ata hpara, i te krehutanga o te tae awatea, i te kkara mauri tahi o te maru ahiahi, i te pokerekeretanga i paringia nei e te ao troa, i ahu mai rtou i te rapunga, i te kimihanga i te hahautanga ki Manuota, ki Manutai. I tria ai te marae e Tmrama, i whaikrero ai te p uauatanga i puta te ki Rangitea i mau ai te puni wahine te tira taitama te khuitanga, te 29

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teretere pmahara, ko ng krero kia krerotia te Tuhi Mareikura kia tuhia, heoi an r. Tera te uira, te whi rua i runga o Pneke, i te whare Mere, whare Pou o te Ture, Pou i te tinihanga. hara ia nei he tohu m te mate, kia Mere ko Ngti Mori uri tangata. Whare Wwahi te wairua o te Tiriti kawenata tapu i herea e ng mtua ki te remu o te kahu o Wikitoria, i hua hoki rtou ko Maringi mai, ko te Wai, ko te Mere reka i pakina e te pukapuka o te Mihinare, waihoki te hua i takahi mana huti pou whenua. Tope ana e heke, te haki a te Kuini, rukuhia ana e Kwiti te atua o te p, mhea, maia ake ki uta, he toto te kai. Riro ana Ngapuhi te toto o T, titiro whakarongo ki Orakau ko Rewi Maniapoto ki te maunga hauhunga ko Ttokowaru, ki te Whiti o Rongomai ko Tohu Kkahi ng troi o te riri. Kei Ngti Toa ko Te Rauparaha, ko Thoe Ptiki ko te Kooti Rikirangi. nei pkaitara, kahui t whke nei kia toi te kupu, toi te mana, toi te whenua. Te whenua kia maia, te tangata kua ngaro. Hinga ko ng poutokomanawa o ng whare maire, tpou ko ng rou ttapu i hoaina i taku tikitiki, te hau o te ktuku o te toiroa mpuna te rau o te huia tohu rangatira, tohu amorangi. 20 Te Tiriti o Waitangi, he aha tnei kupu e wawara mai nei? Te tuku rangatiratanga te Kwanatanga. E kore rawa taku mate e ai te moni. Ma ng toto anake a te Riki, e hoko kia ea tapu mate. E ng kii o te mate o te iwi, o te ao, waiho ake ki ng ara tawhito e pou ai, ng aramai o te mana, ng mana atua, mana tpuna, mana whenua. E t tautari Mori ki te wehenga o Ngara. Tiro atu a Ngara tawhito o ng mata, uia ki te whi ngaro, kei hea te whi pai? Haere r reira ka kitea r e koe te taonga manawa m te iwi, m te rahi m te iti. Hoia t waka, kia mro t haere whia te moana waewae o te ao Pkeh, papaki te tai ki te paparapa nui o Tane. Takiri t ki te pae o Rehua. Kii ana mai tauiwi, kahore u toa, kao, he toa an tu. He uru maturu, te uru o te hoe, he kakau whakawhana, whia te ao a Twhirimtea ki te whare o Mui Tikitiki Taranga, e takoto mai nei kia eke, eke panuku, pttara ki te whai ao, ki te ao mrama. Trans 35 Commencement, glory to The Lord and the commencement and conclusion of all things commences with him. Judge and the members of the Tribunal, greetings to you. To commence my evidence, a story from one of our ancestors who has passed on. Our well known kaumatua, Mori Marsden. I quote his words from the time. The carvers carved the pou at Tau Rangatira at Waitangi. One of the carvers, Maros Nathan, gave these words to us to deliver to you and this quote comes from Mori Marsden about the spirit of The Treaty. Tau ranga kotuku rerenga tahi One bird flies and Piwaiwaka, that told of the death and the prestige and the mana of flocks of birds in the dawn light at Waitangi and in the beginning of the day and just before the dawn. They came from the searching and the finding to Manuota to Manuotahi and the marae at Tmarama was erected so that discourse could be given on rangitea and the camp of women was captured and the flock of terns were gathered and the words should be spoken about the noble ones.

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There is lightning that plays upon Wellington at the House of Parliament and full of deceit. It is a token of death of Mori, it is the house that breaks The Treaty, the sacred covenant that bound us by our ancestors to the cloak of Wikitoria, Victoria, and the sweet milk and nectar is produced forth and the religions have trampled upon the mana and Hone Heke chopped down the flag post and Kawiti fought against the foreigners and from inland to the coast, blood was shed and gaze upon rkau and Rewi Maniapoto and to Titokowaru and Whiti-o-Rongomai and Tohukakahi and Te Rauparaha and at Thoe is Te Kooti Rikirangi. And these fighting leaders, to them word was everything and land was everything. The land remains but the people have gone and the pillars of the great houses have fallen to the ground and the wind of the albatross and the tokens of chieftainship in The Treaty of Waitangi, what is this word that we hear indistinctly, the ceding of rangatiratanga by the government. My loss will not be re-quitted by money. It will only be by the blood of nobles who will re-quit my loss. The mana of the atua and the people and the lands is compromised. Stand forth, the Department of Maori Affairs and ask the people who have lost where is the haven for us? In your travels you will see a place of rest for the people and row your canoe so that your travels firm into the Pkeh world and the tides will crash against your hull of your canoe. The foreigners say to you, you are not a fighter, but no, we have our own prowess and traverse the path of Tawhiti down to the house of Mui-tikitiki-a-Taranga that lays forth so that we may ascend to it, to the world of light.

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Warren Moetara reads to his Brief [11.52 am]


WAIATA JC AI 30 Tn koutou. Mr Irwin? No questions, sir. Tn ra rawatu koe te rangatira, tn koe.

Ranginui Walker questions Warren Moetara [12.16 pm]


RW Tn koe, Jerry. At paragraph 29 you reinterpret your ancestors words that you say were mistranslated by Buick and you say Phea an koe? Na wai i tuku whenua ki te Pkeh? But on the other side in Buicks words he said: Who sold our land? Now, this was a pre-Treaty transaction, was it not? WM RW WM Yes. And are you aware of the difference between tuku and hoko? Ki taku mhio e Kara, ko te mea nui ko te tuku whenua, he tikanga mai r an. Ko te mea r ko te hoko, n nanahi r n te taenga mai o te Pkeh. Ki taku mhio tera. Tuku whenua is an ancient longstanding tradition, custom. Hoko selling is just a recent entity since the arrival of the Pkeh in my knowledge. 31

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E kii ana koe te tuku he manaaki i taua Pkeh. ngari kei ng rangatira tonu e pupuri ana te whenua. Koir t whakaaro? Tn koe. Do you say that tuku is assisting and looking after the Pkeh but the chiefs still have the mana on the land? Is that your view? e. Yes. Thank you. Tn koe, Kara.

Judge Coxhead questions Warren Moetara [12.18 pm]


10 JC WM JC 15 WM Trans JC 20 WM He ptai tku. Yu talk about Buicks account of what was happening at Mangungu, is that right? At Mangungu? Mangungu, at the signing of The Treaty there, or Te Triti there. Do you have any other krero, not the written krero but waiata or krero tuku iho mai e pana ki ng krero o ng rangatira i tn w? M te hainatanga ki Mangng? The signing at Mangungu? Mm, I ask Ms Rutene the same the same question because she refers to it too, that there are written accounts. I was wondering are there any oral accounts or waiata or whakatauki o krero pn an e pana ki ng korero o ng rangatira i tr hui. Koir te tangi i roto i a mtou e te kaiwhakaw, kua ngarongaro haere r krero kei roto i a mtou. Itiiti noa iho ng krero e ora tonu ana i waenganui i a mtou m te w o a mtou tpuna me ng krero e pa ana ki tera te hainatanga ki Mangng. That is the lament that we have, Judge, that the stories and the histories are being lost within us. Very, very little information we have amongst ourselves from the time of our ancestors and the evidence pertaining to the signings at Mangungu. tn koe, ka nui ng mihi ki a koe mo nei krero o Whariki kei mui a i a mtou. Tn koe tn koutou. Thank you very much for your evidence. Tn koe, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. Thank you, thank you all. Kia ora. Mr John Klaricich now, sir, document C9.

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Kia ora ttou, koin te mea tuatahi maku e mihi ana ki a koutou e te tepu n reira tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou. Ka huri ng mihi hoki ki to ttou whare ki a koutou te iwi whnui, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou. Ka heke ng mihi ki a koutou i haere mai i roto i te wahap o Hokianga o ng marae e wha, ki te tautoko i tnei kaupapa. N reira tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou. Tn pea, he krero whakapaki i aku krero ko ttahi o ng kupu o Heremaia. I mhio ana ttou katoa i n kupu, E t ki ng ara ki ruhia ake, uia ng ara tawhito, kei hea te ara pai? Ka haere i reira, ka kite koutou he taonga manawa m o koutou wairua. Firstly, greetings to you, the members of the Tribunal. Turning now to our house and to the people within and my welcome extends to those who have come from other parts of Hokianga, from the full marae who are here to support this matter. I may have some additions to my evidence. For example; the words of Jeremiah; We are all aware of the words, look at the paths and find which is the correct path and go on that path and you will see a resting place for your spirits.

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- - - and see and ask of the old ways, where is the good way and walk therein and you will find peace for your souls. I just use that to introduce my words.

John Klaricich reads to his Brief [12.22 pm]


Luncheon Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 2 [12.32 PM] FINISHES


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Hearing Resumes JOHN KLARICICH CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF NG MTEATEA JK

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Mr Chairman, I began with a reading from Jeremiah in the Bible, from the Old Testament. We believe that we continually look back to our old ways, that we have selected the path which is the best way, we are on that and if there is a time when that pathway needs to be identified properly by other parties, it is now. Kia ora. Kia ora. Mr Potter, you had applied for leave to ask questions. Do you want to go first? Yes, sir. It may be useful, as far as time goes, the questions that I have got are more questions of clarification and they may be better in writing. I think in the direction I had previously set down, there is a process for questions in writing, and that will continue for this process as well. Ms Sykes?

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Annette Sykes questions John Klaricich [2.27 pm]


AS Sir, can I speak? I have some questions that I would like to do orally. I think they would be difficult in writing. They relate mainly to the issues around Mr Whitely and I would like to ask this witness, because he is the first tangata whenua witness, if he can help me in understanding when Mr Whitely left here and went to Kwhia, if he had any influence in Te Wherowhero Ptataus eventual signature on the declaration of independence, which I understood from previous testimony was signed in August 1839. In your brief we have a helpful linkage that leaves prior to Moetara passing away in December 1838 and he goes to Kwhia. Are you able to help me just to understand whether he had any influence, that missionary, in what happened for the Waikato signature to the declaration of independence? No, I cannot. I have read the Reverend Whitleys journals, but only those sections which are of particular context of Hokianga. Are you aware though that - - Yes. - - - Reverend Whitely was hugely influential and taught Rewi Maniapoto and a number of the leading chiefs of the Maniapoto-Waikato area? Yes, I am. So it would not be unusual for him to take these experiences down to those people, would it? Most definitely not. My last question is one that I have asked all of the senior knowledge keepers of Te Tai Tokerau, is that a singular important term in the declaration of independence, He Whakaputanga, is the term whenua rangatira and I am not expecting you to give a long definition, but there is various translations of that term and I will give you three of them that appear in evidence this week. Mr Carpenter suggests that the language of whenua rangatira, which is a fundamental term, is independent nation states. Mr Henare, Manuka, Dr Henare, suggested it was almost akin to a free trade agreement. My preference for my clients is a translation that the late Dame Mira Szaszy gave in the Muriwhenua hearings where she talks about it as a Mori concept, linking it very much back to the placenta, the whenua, the chiefly nurturing that a placenta ensures for the survival of Moridom. I was just wondering either now or at your leisure at a future time whether you would be able to enlighten us on your views of what that important term may have meant for your tipuna, Moetara, at the time of the signing? I would be pleased to do that. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Irwin? 34

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Karekau he ptai ngari me te mihi atu ki a koe e te rangatira, kua maranga t iwi ki te tautoko t krero n reira tnei te mihi hhonu, whnui k ng krero i roto i te pepa i whrikihia mai nei i mua te aroaro o te Taraipiunara, mai i Kupe ki Moetara, n reira e te uri, tn rawa atu koe. I do not have any questions, but thank you very much, sir, for your evidence and the support that you have from your people for the depth and breadth of your evidence that you submitted to the Tribunal process, from the time of Kupe unto your ancestor Moetara. So thank you very much.

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Ranginui Walker questions John Klaricich [2.31 pm]


RW Kia ora, John. I have two simple questions. When Kupe settled at Pakanae and he named that place Pakanae, did he build a fish trap there? Yes, he did. There is a small stream as you enter the urupa, which is a drain now, but it was tidal and there was a lagoon at the foot of Whiria which was named Waikere. Kupe built a trap; some people say he placed stones. Our local tradition talks about mange-mange, just blocking up the stream with mange-mange vine and trapping the kanae as the tide dropped, hence Pakanae. That figures, because if you go to Rangitea you will see fish traps on the islands there. So that, to me, is good evidence that he came fresh from Waikere. The other thing I want to ask you is about the renaming of Moetara as Wiremu Kingi. Can you explain why that name was chosen? No, I do not. But I would suggest that it would be linked to that letter. Thank you.

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Judge Coxhead questions John Klaricich [2.32 pm]


JC 30 JK JC JK JC 35 Trans Tn koe. My question, on page 25 you referred to Hobbs personal diary. Yes. Where could we locate that or find reference to that? I could get a copy for you, sir. Thank you. Koir ng ptai, ka nui ng mihi ki a koe, nu r i krero mai ng krero o t hap kua mrama ana mtou i ng krero r. Tn koe. Those are the questions of the Tribunal. Thank you very much for your evidence. Thank you for your evidence pertaining to your hap, very clear. Thank you.

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Kia ora, sir. Just before we leave to our hap, I just wanted to clarify with Mr Potters questions. There was an issue around the scope of his questions. I heard him say a question of clarification. There has been a suggestion that some of the evidence is contested in Mr Klaricich and I just wanted to be clear that we did not get tied up in written questions about that. Well, you can discuss that with him, I am sure. Mr Potter, what is the answer there? Are they questions of clarification or are you contesting some of what Mr Klaricich is saying? Sir, I have clarified instructions with my clients. Initially they appeared to be contesting the evidence of Mr Klaricich. I can confirm that the questions I have got are of clarification. Thank you. Next presenter Anania Wikaira, is that right? Sir, if I may? Just if I may while Te Hikutu are getting ready, your Honour, just give you a brief update in regards to the timetable. We have discussed matters amongst the counsel presenting this afternoon and Mr Rihari Dargaville would like to start before 5.00 if he could, sir, if time allows, but there is time tomorrow for him to continue in the morning as there are two witnesses tomorrow who wont be giving evidence. So, sorry, we will look to move through the witnesses and hopefully get to Mr Dargaville tonight. This afternoon, at least to begin his evidence, sir. Thank you.

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NG MTEATEA 25 TS May it please the Tribunal, Shepherd appearing for Te Hikutu. Sir, I introduce my witness, he is Mr Anania Wikaira. His brief of evidence has the appellation C20. So, sir, Mr Wikaira. E te kaiwhakaw, kua mutu ng mihimihi, n reira me tmata au i tk nei krero. Greetings to the Judge. We have completed our greetings. commence my evidence. Let me

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So I will do this poem up on the wall, on your board instead. Out of the night that covers me; black is the pit from pole to pole. I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul. In the foul clutch of circumstance, I have not winced or cried aloud. Under my bludgeoning of chance, my head is bloody, but I am bound. Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the horror of the shade and yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me unafraid. It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll. I am the master of my faith; I am the captain of my soul.

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Anania Wikaira reads to his Brief [2.48 pm]


NG MTEATEA Afternoon Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 3 [3.04 PM] FINISHES


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Hearing Resumes ANANIA WIKAIRA CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF NG MTEATEA JC Kia ora. Mr Irwin?

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Andrew Irwin questions Anania Wikaira [4.06 pm]


AI Yes, I have just a few questions. Tn koe Mr Wikaira. At paragraph 38 of your brief of evidence you set out there some conversation at Mangungu and I take it that all of the krero that you quote there of the rangatira following from paragraph 38 over the page is taken from Ruth Rosss publication of 1952? Kia ora. Just turning then to your paragraph 39, and in your footnote there you list some of the rangatira who signed Te Triti but wanted to remove their names. Is there a source for that krero? That krero is oral history passed down to us, and if you want that whakapapa and that krero you will have to come to us personally. We have given you a lot of the names on the footnotes and we can verify those names. There were a lot of names if you look, probably below 52, you can see on the bottom there a lot of signatories and on 35, is it, yes 53 I am sorry. But that krero is oral history and there is a lot of history of Whirinaki that we do not give out. It was very hard for me to put this together without my matuas complaining because they did not want me to give too much. Just following your paragraph 39 there you quote Manning and Pero, is there a written source for that quote or is it - - It is in that same book we referred to. That is from Ruth Ross? Yes, it is the library in Auckland and they would not give it to anyone, unless you are a Crown Judge or - - Kia ora, Mr Wikaira. He ptai an, Mr Irwin?

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Finally, just at paragraph 40 there you say after the Mangungu signing Pero recalls to Manning that he and others rode their boat to Hobsons vessel and is Ruth Ross the source for that information? Yes. Thank you, I have no further questions, sir.

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Ranginui Walker questions Anania Wikaira [4.09 pm]


RK Trans 10 Kia ora, te rangatira. Kei te prangi ahau kia whakamaramatia koe te ingoa nei Te Ramaroa? Can you clarify this name, Te Ramaroa? At paragraph 4 you talk about the long enduring light. This maunga is so named because it was the light that guided Kupe to Hokianga. What kind of light was it? AW 15 For that krero, remembering in those times it was in the time of the gods and remember also there was nothing on the land when Kupe came because he was looking for Te Ika a Mui and my matua say that because there was no trees and growth on the maunga, Te Ramaroa, it was still water coming over the hills and if you look from the West Coast it is like a big triangle there, the path they faced, the West Coast. My matua said that the water was coming over there and a reflection of the light, the sun and at night the moon. It was reflecting the light back and it was so bright that it was from the - but Kupe was told this before he left, that there will be a light. kua Kua mrama au i tera whakamramatanga, tera pea, kua t k te r i mua i te paewhenua n. I am clear now.

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Judge Coxhead questions Anania Wikaira [4.11 pm]


JC AW 30 JC AW Ko tai an te ptai, at paragraph 46 you refer to one of Pompalliers letters. Kia ora. Where could we find that? You will have to do your own translation I afraid. It is all in French. Its lucky I have got a good French man I know for - but if you go to Pompallier House in Kororareka and Kate Martin is the historian there, and she will give you those, and I hope she gives you the same thing she gave me, 52 letters in French. Tn koe. Ka nui ng mihi ki a koe, ki a koutou o te kura nei e haramai ki te tautoko te rangatira nei, ki a koe ka nui ng mihi, ka nui ng mihi, tn koe, tn koutou.

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Thank you very much to you and to the school children who supported you, thank you very much. Tn koe. Sir, Jason Pou here. I would just like to address the Tribunal before I start in their presentation and just while they get themselves ready, just sitting back and listening to the korero as it has come, sir, you will remember in the first week that those five pou krero came in and a wero was put down. The people of Ngpuhi wanted to put their stories and have them challenged if the Crown thought or had a different perspective. Listening to the korero that has come through today, sir, other than asking for sources, there has not been any challenge. Now, if we go to the evidence of Jennifer Rutene, she has actually she stipulated a Ngpuhi position that Waka Nene had a position when he signed Te Triti, He Whakaputanga. She has also made an assertion that the Crown understood what Mori intentions were and what Waka Nenes intentions were. Now, the Crown has not contested that, sir. There has been no contest. Miss Rutene was here to put that evidence so that it could be engaged with if the Crown had a contrary view. As we are sitting here listening to the evidence come through, sir, without it being challenged, we are starting to form the position that the Crown actually agrees or does not contest any of the evidence that has been put, sir. I would just like some direction from you as to what the Crowns obligation would be to put their own case so that those issues can be discussed while the experts are before the Tribunal themselves, sir.

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Mr Pou, you would understand that we are a Commission of Inquiry, so it is a bit more flexible than a straight civil case or a criminal case in particular where you have to put the defence or the - - That being said, sir, my clients in particular, they would expect that the Crown would be acting in accordance with the principles of Te Triti o Waitangi and acting in good faith. So where they believe that my clients have a contrary they have a contrary view to my clients, they believe it is an issue of good faith that that contrary view should be put to them so that comment can be made, sir. Rather than having these two divergent interpretations of The Treaty, you have your say, we will have our say later and never the twain shall meet. This is the time, as they said in the first week, sir, this is the time for engagement, this is the time where we can come in where the minds can actually meet rather than just saying you are on your side of the fence, we are on our side of the fence, leave it up to the Tribunal to come up with something. Mr Irwin, do you have any comment on that? Well, sir, I think your Honour is correct that this is a Commission of Inquiry and strictly speaking, there can be no legal duty on one party in the sense that you have discussed in terms of there being legal duties in a courtroom environment. The Crown wishes to take a sensitive and respectful approach in the Waitangi Tribunal and in this inquiry and in my 39

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submission that is what the Crown has done. There is limited time available in these enquiries and the Crown wishes to focus its cross examination in certain areas. In addition to that, the Crown has filed its own evidence and that is to be heard in the next hearing. It filed that evidence quite some time ago. So I hope that clarifies the position of my client. Does that clarify that for you, Mr Pou? Yes, sir, and I would submit that it is neither sensitive to actually ignore the krero that has been said and not challenge it and to refuse to engage. Thats why theyre here, sir. And as I said, I acknowledge that a Commission of Inquiry does not have those - the obligations and the duties are not as strong. However, we are here, we are meeting in accordance with Te Triti o Waitangi, we are trying to get to the bottom of what that understanding is and rather than save it for the lawyers to argue about it, we have got the experts in front of the Tribunal and where those issues do arise where somebody does raise a very, very germane point, that point should be discussed and engaged upon by the Crown, sir. Anything less I would submit, sir, is an act of bad faith. Your points are noted, Mr Pou, and as a panel we will consider that when we have our discussions and debrief tonight. Sir, can I just note this in response to the Crown, and I have a different point than Mr Pou. It concerns me in terms of the bill of rights obligations that we have as counsel that I have just heard the Crown suggest that their reasons for not vigorously testing propositions is lack of time and lack of resources. That is quite an untenable approach, sir, and I am really concerned by that admission from the Crown that has just been made because after 165 years we actually need to make time to ensure a right to a fair hearing. I think I eluded to some of this, this morning, Ms Sykes, in that the timetable is very demanding and I take your point that it should not be about time. However, we have had the issues put before us and I think as a Tribunal we have sought to allow some flexibility and not confine people directly to the issues before us, and that has meant that the krero brings a wider context than just specifically focusing on the seven issues and that has taken probably more time than we would expect. I note your point about the issue of not being enough time, but I think in a number of memos I have addressed that. That is simply a case where for stage one we have set parameters around how long we would have the hearings for and we would look to confine ourselves to that. My point is not that, it is not about your timetabling. It is about the Crowns proposition that there is no testing of the evidence for lack of time. That is a different question than whether or not we can bring more witnesses to speak on the breadth of issues. I will just use an example, an illustration. We have had here today some significant oral testimony very rarely heard. Now, if the proposition is to be tested, the Crown should test the proposition. My concern is how is the Tribunal going to

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be placed as a Commission of Inquiry to balance matters where there has been no testing? JC 5 AS JC 10 AS JC DW 15 I thought Mr Irwin addressed that in his discussion about us being a Commission of Inquiry, therefore there is not the straight criminal onus of putting the case to - - It is not about criminality. It is about credibility of witnesses. It is nothing to do with criminal tests. Well, the Crown have not well, as I understand it, they have not looked to witness sorry, they have not looked to challenge the credibility of any witnesses as such, but they have sought clarification on specific points. Sir, I have already written on this. But it does create grounds for review it there is insufficient opportunity to test propositions. Your point is noted. Next witness. Your honour, members of the tribunal, tn koutou. Ng roia o te Karauna, me ng roia o Ngapuhi nui tonu. Tn koutou. N reira e ng whaea, ng rangatira, ng rangatane o ng hap nui tonu. Tn r koutou katoa. The legal counsel of the Crown, greetings, and legal counsel of the claimants, greetings also to you. To the grand dames, to the leaders of the great hap, greetings. I am standing here and it is my honour to introduce the speakers for Te Ihutai, which will present their evidence this afternoon. Your Honour, I have a few minor matters that I need to go through with you before the speakers are introduced. The first one, your Honour, is that the brief of evidence of Manuera Tohu, who is the rangatira kaumatua for the hap, the number is B2A, his evidence is to be taken as read, your Honour. But in light of one or two things that have happened during the course of the day and that have been raised, we said as Te Ihutai hap that we would have him available to answer questions. Now, Manuera Tohu is here and he can answer those questions. He can answer those questions directly now in relation to anything about whakapapa and during the course of the day there has been a lot of talk about alliances and how they have been linked through marriage and so in terms of the different hapu that are around the Hokianga, Manuera can sort of outline those associations through whakapapa a lot clearer if the Tribunal requires it. Alternatively, your Honour, if there is anything that yourself or the Crown lawyers wish in terms of understanding the connections which help to explain tino rangatiratanga - - JC 40 DW JC Sorry, can I just what number was Mr Tohus? It was 2BA. Yes, that is what I thought.

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Sir, there was also a couple of issues raised by Dr Walker in terms of the krero of Aperahama Taonui in terms of prophecies made at Mangungu in relation to He Whakaputanga and also in relation to Te Triti at Te Tii. Now, Mr Manuera Tohu is able to answer those questions and he is here right now if you are prepared to give him five minutes, sir? We are just checking the brief because B2A is the brief of Mr Pairama There. So we are just checking the source here. But lets address that part first, Mr Tohus brief. Does the Crown have the brief? Can I just clarify, sir, is the proposal that Mr - - Manuera Tohu. Manuera Tohus evidence be taken as read? Yes, that was the proposal. But what we presented in our memorandum, that he would be available to answer questions in relation to that brief or any other questions in relation to whakapapa and to hapu alliances and connections. Sir, I have no questions for that witness. Counsel, do counsel have any questions? No, and the Tribunal has no questions. Thank you, sir. Sir, the next proposal to use the time most effectively is for the women to present first, followed finally by Mr There. Now, in relation to the women, the first speaker that we will introduce is Helen Lyall. Her brief is C31. I would just like to refer to a couple of paragraphs for a couple of small changes. On paragraph 15 and paragraph 21 it should be Governor Hobson, not Governor Fitzroy. That is 15 and 21. The other small change to that brief is that at paragraph 21 it should read Hone Heke. Now, in relation to Ellen Tokis brief, and that is C30, there is one change at paragraph 10. We wish to, on line seven of paragraph 10, to remove the name of Mohi Tawhai and replace it with the name Pi, who is from Mahurehure. That is it.

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Sorry, what was that? Pi, P-i, and that is because Mohi Tawhai was present, sir, but he did not sign. Sir, I understand that we are quite short of time, but if we are to get through the time that has been allocated, we may overrun. I will leave it at your discretion to make the call. Lets see how we go. Lets start with Ms - - Ellen Toki. Which one did you propose to start with? Sorry, Helen Lyall. 42

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Helen Lyall, yes. Thank you, You are right in terms of time. I have been advised that there are a number of people who have to leave sort of right on 5 so they can get to the 5.30 ferry, so we will look to probably wrap it up about 10 to 5 with karakia and the like. Kia ora. Ki te Judge, tn koe. E te Taraipiunara me te Karauna hoki ng mihi nui ki a koutou. Te mea tuatahi, me tautoko ki ng aroha mai. Te mea tuatahi, e tautoko ki te ttai rangatira. Te mea tuatahi, kia whakapapa ki te whenua tn tpuna hoki, ka tika. To the Judge, greetings. To the members of the Tribunal and the Crown and counsel, team greetings.

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NG MTEATEA 15 E karanga ana te whare pwhiri ki a koutou katoa. Haere mai r ki Raro Phatu te maunga e t mai nei. E rere ana te [INDISTINCT] te moana e. Taitimu, taipari, ki te [INDISTINCT] o Hokianga whakapau karakia, kei knei te hap T Ihutai, te waka matawhaurua, ko wai r te rangatira? Ko Kupe te kaiwhakatere, ka hoki atu tn waka haurua ki tn kainga tuturu, ko wai r i hoki mai Hokianga, Nukutawhiti i nuku mai nei. Ko wai r te iwi e, Ngapuhi nui tonu e.

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JC AI HL 25 JC HL JC Mr Irwin? Sir, I have no questions. Tn koe. Kia ora. We have no questions. Tn koe. Kia ora koutou. Mr Watson, before proceeding with this, it may be an appropriate time to conclude for the day, or did you wish to proceed with this witness? I know it is just getting closer to 5 and I am presuming that this witness wont conclude before then. Your Honour, her presentation is quite short. Okay, lets go then. Probably 10 minutes is more than enough. Yes.

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Ellen Toki reads to her Brief [4.48 pm]


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He ptai w koutou? Sir, I have been listening and I do have no questions. Engari, te mihi atu kia koe, te whaea, tn koe. Thank you very much. Kia ora. Tn koe, e hine, tn koe m t maia, kei te kite atu au ki a koe e wiriwiri ana heoi an ng mihi ki a koe. E te mrama o krero, kare he ptai ki a koe. Greetings, thank you very much for your bravery and courage in completing your evidence, very clear evidence. I have no questions, thank you very much. Kia ora. Tn koe. Pita, well hand it over to you and - - Tn koe, sir, before you hand it over, its Mere Mangu here, I would just like to register that you invited questions for Mr Tohu earlier from counsel. I have not been able to locate his brief at the moment, but I would like to reserve the position that I put a question to him overnight for him to reply to in the morning please. Would that be in writing, or do you want to take the process of doing questions in writing and they would do the same. I would like to it is actually your questions that you put this morning, sir, to two witnesses. I would like it repeated to him and give him the opportunity to reply to that. Okay. Pita? Kia ora, your Honour. Kia ora an ttou. E ttou ma, we have been taken on a bit of a rollercoaster ride today. The krero has been fantastic. We have been humoured, we have been saddened homei te pakipaki mo te katoa o ng kaikrero. I have been reliably told by locals that the ferry leaves the north side at 6 oclock, not 5.30, so we can have a good, long hmene and karakia. Please, people, remember tomorrow that, like every day we start, I would like people to be seated at 8.45 and between 8.45 and once we have settled down, we will have our karakia and our mihi and so by the time it comes to 9 oclock we are ready to go on our first speaker and we can make the most of the time. We have fallen a little bit behind today, engari e pai an. Ko wai o n, ko ng kaikrero tuatahi apopo. Heoi an.

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That is okay, so that we have a proper and decent go at the evidence. They will be the first speakers in the morning. So the two speakers who didnt get a chance to speak today a Pai There me Dick Dargaville.

We will hand it over to the taumata to close our day. Engari he mihi ana ki a koutou khai ttahi i ngohoro, n reira, e te taumata e hoatu ana ki a koutou kia ta kapingia tnei r, tnei te r tuatahi, o te wiki tuatoru. Kia ora an ttou. Trans I would like to reiterate my congratulations and commendations. There was no snoring, there was no sleeping. So we hand over to the taumata to close day one of week three, thank you. Tn r koutou te Taraipiunara, te Karauna. Kua rongo nei ng kaikrero o tnei r, tnei r ataahua ahakoa ka maku ki waho. He mihi kau ana ki a koutou, he mihi ana kia koutou ng kaikrero, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora mai ttou. Ko tmuku te taima karakia ttou i kapi ai i tnei r, ka hoatu r ki a koe i te Ahi kia ora mai ttou. Trans You have been listening to the evidence of the people today, so I would like to commend the Crown and the Tribunal and also the witnesses who gave evidence today. It is time for us to say a prayer to close our day and we hand over now to you, Wa.

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KARAKIA ?? Tn an ttou, ka homai r tnei honore ki ahau tnei r. E tautoko ana ng mihi kua mihia e tae ki te taumata, n reira t mai ttou, kia karakia tahi ttou. Kia pai i to ttou huihuinga. Greetings. I have been given the honour to close the day with a prayer and I support the mihi proffered by te taumata, so let us all stand and say a prayer so that proceedings may go along smoothly. In the name of The Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, amen. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Give us this day, lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and the fruit of thy womb. Oh lord, the creator, the savoir, we offer up our spirits from the forgive us all our sins.

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Evening Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 1 SESSION 4 [5.02 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 1 STARTS
Hearing Resumes MIHI AND KARAKIA

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Ae, kti r, me whakarane au i ng krero a Te Hapai, he mihi nui ki to ttou Minita i te ata nei, kua whakaritea to ttou nohonga, n reira tn koe e te kaikarakia, tn koutou e te taumata, e te Taraipiunara, tn koutou. Ko te tumanako i pai ai to koutou moe i te p r, te Kwanatanga, te Karauna, ttou e hui nei, mrena. Te Hapai. Thanking our minister for this morning, we have had our spiritual protection, thank you to the minister and thank you to Te Taumata. Greetings to the Tribunal, we hope that you had a good rest last night and to the Crown team and to everyone here present, good morning, the sun is shining. We will get straight into things, there are a couple of pnui before we start the programme. As most of you know, we did not quite get through our programme yesterday so the first speaker is Pai Tahere followed by Dick Dargaville and the programme for this morning or should have been for this morning Buck Korewha, Brendan Hauraki, Owen Kingi, Mereane Robinson, Erimana Taniora, Mitai Paraone-Kawiti, Waimarie Bruce, Te Ihi Tito and Pare Walker. That is the programme that I have got, I can hardly read it but I think we have improved the light over the rostrum. So I mentioned on Saturday, when the Hokianga hap were welcomed into this building, that I can remember approximately 1993 when I came here to a hui and Whina Cooper was sitting in this very whare. She was reading The Herald, she had no glasses on, she died, I think, the following year. I do not actually know whether she was reading The Herald or whether she was just holding it up but she was certainly leafing through the pages. So at 94 years old and reading The Herald in this same whare I was amazed then and I am still amazed now. Kei konei tonu te wairua o tn kuia.

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Her spirit still pervades this place. In saying that, the programme is in front of us, I have been told that when the support groups come in and are seated behind each speaker, when they exit can they come around this way please because, an kiti an tn riu roa... It is too narrow the other path. ...and so we get a bit of a bottleneck as one group goes back and the other one comes forward so if we can just come around this way it may alleviate things a little better. There is still some double parking out on the road. It is a very busy stretch of road so we need to keep it clear and the wardens may have to move your cars for you if there is any double parking out there.

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For those of you who are hooking into the web, there is a code; it is DLINK and then your own code. Other than that there are some other panui that I put out there first thing yesterday about housekeeping matters but I will leave those until after morning tea. Pai is ready to go, 46

Judge, so he hoatu an te w kia koe te Judgy, ki te kaikrero an hoki, kia ora ttou. Trans JC 5 PT JC 10 Handing over now to you Judge and the speaker. I wonder, Mr Tahere, if you could just have a seat for a sec there is just a few admin issues that I have got to address first. Do you just want to turn your microphone off? Say again. I just need to theres a couple of issues that were raised yesterday that we need to address first okay so just taihoa. The first one was Miss Mangu you had requested an opportunity to put questions to Mr Tohu. I understand now that that is going to be by way of written questions? Kia ora, your Honour, that is correct. Okay thank you. Also the issue raised by yourself, Mr Pou, wanting some direction from the Tribunal regarding the requirement for the Crown to put the case to the witnesses. I said yesterday that we would, as a panel, discuss that. We have discussed that. As we understand things Mr Pou, your request is on two bases, one was that the claimant should be given the opportunity to respond to the Crown case and put the Crown, and to those parts of the Crown as challenging of their evidence. And the second part was that the Crown should show Treaty good faith and therefore, put the case to the claimants. As I said yesterday we are a commission of inquiry, we are here to inquire into matters and our processes provide flexibility and with good reason. It is this inquiry, in this inquiry that approach of flexibility has assisted us in being able to look at the issues that we are looking at and consider the whole range of evidence that has come before us. We do note that the Crown has provided their evidence, most of their evidence sorry, if not all, prior to the filing of the claimants evidence and claimants have had a chance to make their responses to the Crown evidence in their evidence itself and one or two have taken that opportunity. To our knowledge the approach the Waitangi Tribunal Commission of Inquiry requiring the Crown to put their case to claimant witnesses has never been adopted previously and while this is a unique situation, we do not intend to adopt that process here. We are into week three of these hearings, these initial hearings; to change the process after a number of witnesses have made their evidence, presented their evidence before the Tribunal we think is not desirable. We also think that such an approach would not assist this process which is very much about Ngpuhi having the opportunity to tell their krero about He Whakaputanga and Te Triti o Waitangi and it is for those 47

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reasons that we, as a Tribunal, will not require the Crown to put their case to each individual claimant witness through cross-examination. JP 5 Sir, just following up on that, it was not necessarily the putting of the entire case, the Crowns case; it was where claimants raised a view that was contrary to the Crowns case. My submission there is an obligation of good faith to test that issue. Its something that was reflected in the recent findings of the Tribunal and the Turawera Inquiry where a number of matters which the Crown did not test were, therefore, given full weight by that Tribunal which included the member Miss Joanne Morris. Sir, we have a house full of people, we have had a house full of people in all of the weeks that are here and from the first week this Tribunal and the Crown were put on notice that Ngpuhi have come to discuss matters with the Crown and to be engaged with the Crown and in my submission Sir, it is stepping away from the obligations of the Treaty. If Te Triti is about a relationship, relationships are about discussing that relationship and seeing on what footing that relationship sits and my submission for the Crown not to do so is stepping away from those obligations and in my submission Sir, this panel has an obligation to uphold te whakamana Te Triti and this panel should be requiring the Crown to do so. I am cognisant in commissions of inquiry Sir that there is not that obligation but that is generally in terms of parties that come before a commission of inquiry and they are not always there for the entire period. This is not the case here, the Crown is here from the beginning to the end, they know what their case is and in my submission it is not good enough for this process and it is not good enough for the people that have come here to watch this process and to see it unfold for them to just sit back, wait, not engage and then just put up a contrary view at a later time. I will leave it there Sir but my objections are still maintained - - JC JP JC PT 35 Yes. - - - as to how effective this process could be if the Crown would actually engage like the Treaty partner that it claims itself to be. Thank you, Mr Pou. Mr Tahere we are now over to you. Before I start I would just like to recap on yesterday because our kuias and our kaumatua were here and we sort of had that break, its like having breakfast without a cup of tea, by the time you get to the cup of tea its gone cold. So aroha mai. Secondly, our kuia, they are the kaikaranga of our marae and I bullied them to stand up and take another role and they have done that admirably. You try and run a marae without your kaikaranga and you are in deep whatever. ?? e.

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So I want to give our kuias that dimension, that experience to come forward and speak their krero for themselves. Kia ora mai ttou. Thank you, Mr Counsel, for spending all that valuable time with our kuias to encourage them to do that Danny, appreciate your time. Engari, mihi tnei kia koutou.

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Greetings everyone. [Mandarin Content 9.06.32]. I have got your attention? Whakapakeha tr krero. That was Mandarin. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to Panguru, Hokianga. Welcome my good friends. Your home is my home, my home is your home, welcome, welcome, welcome. I put that in because when they were signing the Treaty the two languages did not meet and I just put it on the table because it means that even though Te Reo it does not meet.

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My name is, oh I have got to read this because I am not used to sort of may it please the Tribunal, Counsel, and [Indistinct 9.08.05] and Waitangi, put your glasses on idiot. Wai 1538 claimants the brief of evidence of Pairama Tahere, that is me. Hap Introduction, Ill go as fast as I can, if I am going too fast, I am conscious that they have already eaten into my time.

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Pairama Tahere reads to his Brief [9.08 am]


PT And the Tribunal would have seen the narrows yesterday. In 970AD it would have been a little bit narrower.

PAIRAMA TAHERE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF PT 25 We have in Hokianga what we refer to, and I do not have it in my brief, excuse me for doing this, Oneroa alluded to it on the bus down, that Te Kohukohutanga o Kupe which was the island out in the harbour there where the turehu of Kupe was supposed to make the hangi but they let the tide come in and the steam came off the hangi, put the hangi out, they had no kai. Koinei te ingoa o tr Te Kohekohetanga o Kupe. That is how the name came about Te Kohukohutanga o Kupe, the cursing of Kupe.

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PAIRAMA TAHERE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF PT 35 I am just digressing here a bit. That was how our tpuna saw He Whakaputanga. That is why they attach their moko onto the document. As I said it was as if God was handing down the tablets of stone to our tpuna.

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Kia ora mai ttou, pai ana to ttou waiata ngari, ka t an ng whakamrama i a ia nei, mau mahi mai i tnei krero. Kia ora mai ttou waiata me mahia ng mahi kia knga ng raiti. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen for the little interlude. Kia ora, Mr Tahere, you can continue, are you happy to continue with that? Not a problem. Okay thank you. I could do it with a candle but I have got a good light. Ko nei te krero, ko haka toi te atua, ne? A sign from above. Just getting back to the reference point we are talking about He Whakatupanga.

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PAIRAMA TAHERE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 15 PT compensation to be part of that redress. Paragraph 65 and 66 Ill leave, but kia ora mai ttou. JC PT Trans 20 JC Kia ora. Ptai t ptai. Any questions? Does the Crown have any questions? Yes,we have a question from Dr Richard Hill.

Richard Hill questions Pairama Tahere [10.03 am]


RH 25 PT RH Kia ora, Mr Tahere. Thank you for your presentation. In your written version you have some documentation referred to and I am just asking for a point of clarification. Yes. Can I take it that the rest of your evidence reflects the stories handed down through the hap and the iwi. Are these traditional stories or have you referred to other written documentation within that quoted? No I have not. We do have documents and like our whnau from Te Hikutu said, we have to ask permission to get those documents - - Kia ora. - - - its not mine and they are handwritten in longhand. manuscripts not unlike the scrolls of Egypt I suppose. They are

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Kia ora. I cannot do that but they are there if you want to come and krero to our whnau, kia ora. No, thank you very much. Tn koe, e Pairama, parekareka te whakarongo atu i a koe i u krero. Tn koe e whakatoi nei ki a Ranginui m phea an te hki? N reira, ka nui te mihi ki te pai o ou krero. Thank you, Pairama, it has been a joy to listen to you as you teach Ranginui how to suck eggs, so I would like to acknowledge and thank you for your evidence. No we have no further questions, ng mihi nui ki a koe e Pairama, m nei krero kua whrikihia kei mua i a mtou, kei mua i a ttou, tn koe. Thank you very much Pairama for your evidence that you have presented before the Waitangi Tribunal and the people. But I do have one question for your Counsel, Mr Watkins.

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Yes. Mr Watkins, I notice that all of these briefs were signed by you, will you be seeking leave to file briefs signed by the witnesses themselves? Yes, yes youre Honour. Thank you. Yeah, I put him in a lot of pressure because we had to, you know, try and do all this quick as with no money and so he has not been paid yet so he signed it. Ka pai. Thank you. Kia ora mai ttou to ttou whakamramatia. Thank you everyone, thank you everyone. Heoi an kei te t ake ki te tata tnei o a ttou hap a Ihutai anei e kokiritia ng hap kei runga te maunga, te maunga taniwha otir i Maungaphatu, ana ko te khatutanga o te Uru Mahui, ko te Uri Kopura, ko te Raho Whakaari, heoi an ko te Ihutai, ko Ngti Kiore, ana e krerotia e tnei o ttou rangatira, ng kaupapa, ng krero, ki a koutou te Kwantanga e te Judge, e te kaiwhakaw, n rerira tnei te w hei tautoko ana ngari kaua e wareware, ki t ttou kaupapa inanahi r, e te Kwanatanga, te w ka rongotia te Kwanatanga kua takototia ai te paipera tapu, kei kona k te hhonutanga t atu tn ana, i whakapapa mai te Kwanatanga to rtou whakapapa ki te whenua. Kei kona k te hohonutanga hei titiro m koutou m te Kawantanga m ng Judge e kore k te hohonutanga mea ana te ringaringa ki runga i te paipera tapu 51

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kia pono, kia tika. N reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora mai r ttou katoa. Trans 5 Just standing to support Te Ihutai hap under Maunga Taniwha and Maunga Pohatu and Te Uri Mahue and Te Uri Kopua and Te Uri Whakahe and Te Ihutai and Ngti Kiore, that was presented by this witness before you Judge and the Crown and so we stand here to support and lest we forget our matter yesterday, the covenant and the Holy Bible. Secondly, the Crown must give their whakapapa to the land and that is the depth of what we need to investigate and the government Judge and so that we can see the depth and whether the hand that was laid on the Bible was true and honest. WAIATA TH 15 JC PT PT 20 JC Whakahokia te whenua, ng maunga, ng awa, ng taonga. Kia ttou te iwi Mori. Whakarongo mai, whakarongo mai, whakarongo mai. Tn koe, Mr Tahere. Kia ora koutou. That concludes Te Ihutais evidence. I now hand the speaking over to my learned friend Mr Mihara Armstrong. Kia ora ttou. Mr Armstrong, Just while we are, just because it is a bit dark in here people just take care when moving between places please, we do not want people falling over or anything. And Mr Mihara, just while you are getting ready just a word to Counsel and claimants. I do note that we are a bit behind in terms of time, we will leave it to Counsel to sort things out basically. The equilibrium will be returned in time. tn an koe, e te tiati, e te [Indistinct] whakamana. The timetable was going to be to have Mr Rihari Dargaville come and speak but he is still waiting for his mother to arrive, the kuia is coming from Ngawha, so I have asked Mr Armstrong if he could bring on his witness, Mr Buck Korewha, - - Yes. - - - and that will take us through until morning tea and then Mr Dargaville can come on after that. Okay, well taihoa, just give us time to get those briefs. Kia ora matua. Mr Armstrong kia ora ttou. Tn koutou Tn koutou, ki a koutou ng whanau, me ng hap, me ng iwi o Ngapuhi nui tonu, ka nui te mihi. Ki te Taraipiunara, tn

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koutou, e te Karauna, ng roia me tahi atu o ng tangata, me ng tangata n ng hau e wha, kua tae mai ki knei i tnei r, ka nui te mihi. Trans 5 Greetings to the families, to the hap of Ngpuhi, greetings, greetings to the Tribunal and to the people of the four winds who have come here. I appear for this claim which is Wai 1354, this is a claim filed on behalf of Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau who are from Omanaia. Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau we have travelled across the ocean today to present this evidence to the Tribunal. Our first kaikrero is Tpiki Korewha. His brief is document C4. There was also, Sir, a brief filed for Brendan Hauraki which is document C16. Unfortunately, Sir, Mr Hauraki was unable to attend today so we are going to have his brief taken as read. Engari, kahuri au kia Tpiki inianei. Trans BK 15 Turning you now to Tpiki. Kia ora ttou, te mea tuatahi o ng mea katoa o te wehi an ki a Ihoa nana nei ttou kui huihui mai te r nei. Koia hoki te mtapuna o te ihi, te wehi, te tapu tae noa nei ki a taua nei te tangata, n reira e ttou ma te whanau, kua mihi ake nei ki a koutou e te Karauna, e te Taraipiunara, e koutou ng roia, ng mtua, ng whaea, ng teina tuakana, ng tuahine, ng mt waka katoa e rau rangatira ma, tn koutou, tn koutou. Tn koutou hoki Ng Bush in the house. Te papai hoki ki te whakarongo ki ng krero. Tn n kua hanga mm noa iho, Id just like to endorse all of our speakers, e ttou ma, to our Crown Trans 25 Greetings everyone. First, the observations to Jehovah who has brought us here together. He is the wellspring of sanctity unto us the man so to all of us the whnau, greetings to the Crown and to the Tribunal and to the lawyers and to the elders and to the grand dames and I thank you very much - greetings to the bush in the house. How pleasant it is to listen to the evidence and so it has made my task easier and I... 30 BK ...Id just like to endorse all of our speakers, e ttou ma. To our Crown, all I have been told is to do - I have been instructed by my matua, Te Rima to say this and nothing more, no more, no less. To help with the well, were looking to a mindset, eh? What was the mindset of the Mori, i te hai no tango o Te Triti? Signing of the Treaty. Were we above board? Were we pono to the signing? I think so. And the question remains, were they pono, eh? Were they? TH BK 40 Ka hori. That is not for you and I, ne? You and I is to live and die, waiho ng okay. So the brief of evidence, this is just to relate me to uncle just said

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All you need to do boy is get your pepeha and show them how that belongs to you, so anei, , na ko Tpiki Korewha te ingoa nei. Trans BK 5 Trans BK 10 My name is Tpiki Korewha. Im giving this brief in support of the claim, for Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau ki Omanaia. My relation, Erima Edwards has also given a brief of evidence which was presented in Week 1, so ng krero nei, hei kinaki. These words are in support of those evidence. He Whakaputanga me Te Triti o Waitangi, I support Uncle Rimas krero and I am making this brief to add further krero in relation to hap, Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau. Anei te pepeha.

Tapiki Korewha reads to his Brief [10.16 am]


Trans TK JC 15 TA PT BK PT 20 There is a saying Te Piiti is the marae, and Te Triti was signed. Mr Armstrong, is that an appropriate time to take pause and adjourn for morning tea? e. Judge e Buck - - Kei a koe. - - - e mihi an kia koe. [Indistinct] ko tae ke mai te karanga mai te wharekai, e riri mai an ng kai. Before we go, Id like to draw your attention to one of the things that Pai Tahere said, and it was about the lack of infrastructural development in our communities like this. The lack of power is due to exactly that. The transformer down the road blew up and Top Energy is taking a couple of hours to get people out here to fix it up. It has got nothing to do with the power in the marae itself. Kei runga kei te rori te he. The faults lies on the road. In saying that, the wharekai is still able to operate so we are still sticking to our times. I just want to let, and it is happening right now before people start moving, is that there is a little bit of a hubbub of conversations happening in this whare and all of those little conversations put together is distracting from the kaikrero, so we need to cut that out. The other thing is, is that the mirimiri, if you are feeling like a mirimiri, there is one available just next door. haere kia mirimiri ngi ai koutou. Me haere ttou ki te kapu t. Morning Adjournment

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WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 2 STARTS
Hearing Resumes JC 5 BK Mr Armstrong. Hello, oh, kia ora. Oh, well, kia pai ng pai ng whero, ka pai? me haere tonu. Papahurihia. Papahurihia, if you some of you lucky enough to go to varsity, pnei e rtou, whiwhi tohu, n? And the only way you can become a doctrine, eh, and all of that stuff, you have to have learnt about Penetana Papahurihia, one of the Mori phenomena as it were, ne? Okay there is a short whakapapa here to Papahurihia, but well just leave that there.

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TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF TK 15 But Papahurihia was adamant that he would not accept the damnation of the church, to say, that if my people dont make the cut, they arent going to make it, n? Pnei to tini o koutou e ki an i te hara... Trans And just like most of you, who are sinners.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF TK 20 Because in his thinking that was what was in place before Christianity came, that when our people died their spirit would go on that ara, n? Te Rerenga Wairua, Hawaiki nui, you know the one, te rnei kua hanga rere ke. Today its all changed. Hanga rere ke, engari kei a koutou.

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TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF TK Trans TK As we say, ka whai muri e ng hikoitanga o rtou ma... Following the path of those who have gone before. He wanted to return to that afterlife there.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 30 TK And he was also buried outside our whi tapu, n, come about 1956 our whi tapu was extended and hes now n, ko huri ng whakaaro o ng kaumauta, , an, ko hanga ng ore. The elders have changed their views, they have soften their views.

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N, so you fellas know, if youre not with the Christians, youre with the Protestants, eh, everybody else. You know who you are, eh? You listening Crown? Eh?

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 5 TK And so, theres a whakaheke here from Rhiri down to myself and well leave that there.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF TK As you know Crown is what you term land.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 10 TK Trans Iho is deemed is the what we say, te taura hono mai i te pito e te tamaiti ki te rauru o... That which bounds the child to the mother.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF TK 15 My [Indistinct] over here, Whina on the wall, I remember because she took some of the Queens things, eh, and I remember saying My mokopuna dont understand why I take these things, eh? Whai mana. They dont understand. I need these things so I can talk, eh and thats why she took on those things and thats the other part, e ttou.

TAPIKI KOREWHA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 20 TK to declare our mana to the world. No reira, e ttou ma, ka nui ng mihi kia koutou, no reira tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora ttou. NG MTEATEA BK 25 Trans JC 30 BK KN ka rongo hau i te p kerekere ka whakawhirinaki ng papa o Maui, ka puta ki te whei ao ki te ao Mrama. Tn koutou, tn koutou, huri noa I t ttou nei whare. Emerging to the world of light, greetings to you all and to all of us in our house. Tn koe. Miss Carrad. Okay, fire it up. , e te rangatira, i tnei r ka mihi ake r ki akoe I whakamramahia ai ng huatanga o Ngti Kaharu me Ngti Hau. Tnei r ka mihi ake r mtou te rp whakamana I te Tiriti ka mihi ake r ki a koe m whakamramatanga. Thank you very much, Sir, for your clarifications pertaining to Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau so thank you very much. On behalf of the 56

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Waitangi Tribunal thank you very much for your clarifications. questions thank you very much. JC BK 5 MA JC MT Kore he ptai. Tn koe. Oh, kia ora. Kia ngwari mai kia ora ttou.

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Tn koe, Sir, yes that is the evidence for Ngti Kaharau and Ngti Hau. Thank you. Tn koe, your Honour, Miss Tuwhare, I just want to give you a quick brief update and everyone in the whare so we know where we are at with the timetable. Sir, we have got Rihari Dargaville on next followed by Owen Kingi, Mereana Robinson has graciously agreed to go in tomorrow morning Sir, so that should take us to lunchtime and then we will be on track in terms of the rest of the timetable, your Honour. You will notice that tomorrow there is actually half an hour - and I bring you some light - tomorrow there is actually half an hour already available so Mereana has been shifted over and that should take care of that, Sir.

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tn an ttou ka tautoko I ng whakamoemiti I tuku atu I te ata nei huri noa, huri noa ki a koutou mai ng hap, ng iwi, ng kaiwawao, ng kaikarangaranga, ng whare tangata tapu o Ngpuhi, Hokianga Whakapau Karakia tn koutou. Mku te honore ki te t ake I te rangi nei ki te tautoko I ng kereme o Ngpuhi me te kaikorero nei a Rihari Takuira me k ko Dick Dargaville. Me k r he uri n koutou. N reira nau mai haere mai Rihari.

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I would like to endorse the prayers offered up this morning and to the descendants and to the defenders and to the callers and the speakers and the womenfolk of Ngpuhi and of Hokianga whakapau karakia. It is my honour today to endorse the claims of Ngpuhi and the speaker following Dick Dargaville. He is one of you, so welcome Mr Dargaville.

Richard Dargaville reads to his Brief [11.25 am]


RD 30 Kia ora ttou Kia ora ttou. Me kii r, kia hiwa r, kia hiwa r, kia hiwa r ki r mate, kia hiwa r ki tera mate, kia hiwa r kia hiwa r. Hutia te rito o te harakeke, kii mai ki a au he aha te mea rangatira o tnei ao, ko te whakahoki atu, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. Thei mauri ora, Thei mauri mate. I runga i ng kakano tuku iho, tuku atu i roto i tnei marae a Ngti Manu, hokia te r ki a koutou, e Heremia, e Matangi, tae atu ki a koutou e te tira pakeke, nau an i runga i te wairuatanga hei whakatahia ttou, here rapu te hhonutanga, o ng mamae heke mai, heke mai tae an ki a mtou ng uri. Kia ora ttou. He mihi atu ana ki a ttou i te tuatahi, he mihi atu ana ki o hap, o knei ko Kaitutai, Ngti Manawa, e mihi atu ana ki a taku tuakana a Hinepuru nei, nana i timata i ng mahi inanahi r. Ahakoa ko nei mea katoa me kii r, he purua te kanohi o tnei, he purua ana ki 57

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tera, ngari ko te kaupapa ki mua i a maua, he taumaha an. Hei te mea tnei kaupapa haranga maua, i tuku iho no o mtou mtua tpuna. Ko maua e kawe ana i n wero, ehara ana maua nei kaupapa m o mtou mokopuna, tamariki te haere mai ake tonu atu, ake tonu atu. 5 N reira e koutou, kua tae mai nei ahau, ahau hoki, hoki ng whakapauraki mhio ana koutou. E t rranga mai i runga i a Papt, kore e mutu ki reira. Ko n mea moku kia taea au ki te mate, a, kua puta n krero. Hei te mea, he mea tapu, he mea hohonu. Ma muri i te Karauna, otira, e mhio ana au ko wai ahau, e mhio ana rtou, ko wai rtou. E mhio ana ttou i a rtou ko wai rtou. I pohehe nei ki a ttou hoki, ki muri, ki muri. E tatu mai kua rautina roa atu te mea e ta atu i tnei, e haere te w, ka huri au ki taku whaea, a ia e Iwa tekau ng tau. Koin ake te pakeke ora atu noa atu ki roto i a Panguru, i runga i tera pakeketanga mai r i o rtou m. Kua tae mai tnei ata ehara ake nei e ora tonu nei, e rongo tonu ana ng wawata, ng mamae tuku iho i runga i a rtou, heke muri, heke muri, otira me ttahi taha n roto i a Te Whangaroa, te taha ki a Ngapuhi. Te taha ki Hikatu kua tae mai nei, e kore e taea te wehi te toto. Khai n te toto e noho ana ttahi taha e nahe ana. E kiia nei te Whaea a Whina mai r an, i puta mai koutou i te kwhao te w ka hokinga koutou ki te houru. N n krero ki ahau ko te hhonutanga o n mea, i whanau mai ttou te wahine. Ng krero kua mai r an i pera an. Otira e kore tino roa te haerenga i neke atu tonu i n mea. Hohonu t ana mai te tangata i a ia nei n, i roto i te uri o Tehitia Pakeke. Eke atu r ki a koutou, kia Heremia ma, ki a Matangi ma, heke mai au otira, i moe mai tk whaea n Whirinaki, n Te Hikatu, a Mereana kei te tangata a Kpene Rwhi, i roto i na uri o mtou i moe mai ki tere ma, otira, tahi tekau ma rua na tamariki ka puta mai ttahi te tokorima o ng tamariki ko tk mtua, otira ko Hawai tana ingoa. Ka moe i tnei ngarui i roto i te Whangaroa o Ngti Kauwau, Ngti Pou, Ngti Uru, anake ka puta mai ko te tangata e t nei i mua i a koutou i tnei r, n reira, tn koutou.

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Greetings, I rise, I rise to our losses, hold fast to the tap root of the flax, ask me what is the greatest thing, let me say it is man, it is man, it is man. To the seeds that were sown from afar onto this house and to the elders, greetings. Come within the spirit world to unite us in depth and in our pain descending to we the descendants, greetings. I greet everyone today, to my hap of this area Kaitutae and Ngti Manawa, to my elder Hine Puru who commenced this yesterday and all these things. But the matter that is before us all is a heavy matter and this matter is not just of our time but from our ancestors and these are not our issues but it is for our generations and the children still to come. And so to everyone who have come, I have come here, I am of Hokianga Whakapau and so because those are sacred things I know who I am and the Crown knows who they are, we know who they are and they. Ladies and gentlemen, I will not be long, the time is short, my mother is 90 years old. She is the only elder of that age in Panguru these days. 58

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She has come here this day and I am joyous that she is still alive but she still, the pain and afflictions that we hear are not just of this day. She is also from Whangaroa on the Ngpuhi side and we are unable to separate the blood lines because the bloodlines do not just sit on one side because Whina said You came from the abyss, you will return to the abyss in time that we were born of woman and that is the traditions of old. I will not be long so I stand here and acknowledging them to Heremia and Matangi and the others I say speak, rest in peace, my fire is from Te Hikutu, a descendant of Kapene - Captain Leaf who married Te Rima and the fifth of their child was Hwai who married Ngarue of Whangaroa, of Ngti Kawau and Ngti Uru and they had this, the speaker who stands before you today. Greetings Tribunal. RD Kia ora e te Tribunal. Thank you for defining your position. You are a Commission of Inquiry, and Id like to ask the Crown over here where is Andrew today because I know that a little accident, or accident - incident rather, that I thought was historical, of people putting their hand on the Bible, and when you do that you are committed to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. I only ask because maybe he has got a cold but to me that is important for us to tell this in the truth and in the manner and the dignity it deserves. So I stand before you today because I am also a soldier. I am a commissioned officer, I am a captain, I still hold my commission and my commission is with the Queen of England, not with the government of New Zealand. That commission is fact never to be abused but that commission compels me to act in a way that commissioned officers must act, gentlemanly, focused and be sure that the object and the mission that you are on does achieve and get the realisation of results it should produce. So I stand before here because I am compelled to say sadly that I wished you were the Crown right here today because I would suggest Sir is this, that irrespective of whatever we put before you, the one thing that now we will be united on is that we did not cede sovereignty. The extent of that, of course, is going to be debatable but to us those are not the issues, the issue simply is this - when I look at the seven requirements is that Ngpuhi did not cede sovereignty. You determine what the extent of that is, I am hoping and I have an expectation that the Tribunal report that you would write will be written in favour of what we are saying because this is not simply rhetoric, it is not something that we dreamed about, it is something that we have lived with Sir, for many, many a year. It is 175 years that we have been grieving, we have been in pain, and I think the time now for redress is correct. I am saying that because I am saddened that when I look at the Crown, that Ill have to see you in court because you are guilty by your own laws and what you imposed on us. I would say that you will see me again because I have a belief it is your laws that have imposed a wrong, it is

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your laws that will correct the wrong. So on that note, e ttou ma, me haere muri au. Ko tku krero o nei w, is when I grew up here. I was born here in 1945, whakarapa, tku pito ki runga i runga i priri i raro te maunga tapu o Panguru, Papatau. 5 Trans RD My umbilical cord is upon Panguru Papata, youre umbilical cord must be laid there. They buried us all up there, if youre born here, me haere t pito ki reira, hei aha, so that youll not ever this rohe one way or another. So, ki reira ka tna pito ko tpuna and mine, and Im privilege that mine lays with me. So my krero, I have in expectation today is that, what was it, you Rihari, in the 40s, following the war that you saw that your people were striving to hang onto with regards to He Whakaputanga? M tmata mau i knei, ng kupu a tnei rohe a mtou, i a au i tupu ake ana, ko ng kaumatua, ko ng kuia ko Whina m, ng pakeke o rtou e whakahaere. Trans RD 20 Let me commence here. The words of this area, when I was growing up the elders, Whina and the others... It was L-A-W, it was our law, we did not see Policemen, we did not see anybody, the law over here was run by kaumtua, kuia, absolutely and prescriptively may I say. I ng w i tupu ake ahau, i Waihou Trans RD 25 When I grew up in Waihou... ... I heard when I was only 9 years old, kaumtua like Matiu Witana, Ned Ngapera, Steve Ngaropo, comeback from the war, used to sit in the dark and they used to quote this krero: E Kngi Wiremu, e t nei mtou ki a koe, ng rangatira o Niu Tireni, kia ptata mai koe ki a mtou hei hoa, e kitea ake nei mtou a koutou, te nui te maha o ng kaipuke e haere mai nei ki roto i a Pewhairangi. Kua kitea ake mtou he taonga a o koutou atu ki a mtou, he iwi rawa kore. He rakau he muka, he poaka, he kaimoana. N reira haere mai koe he hoa. ngari e Kngi Wiremu, ko te whenua tturu, tturu, kore neke, kore neke. N reira, haere mai, haere mai kua kite mtou i a koutou me o koutou tini kino e haere mai ki roto i a mtou. E moemoe nei koutou ng iwi takataka nei o mtou, he kino nei o mtou tnana e kino nei o mtou wairua, haere mai. Ki te kore koutou e haere mai, kua pakanga ttou, kua heke te hinuku ki a rtou, e hoa ma You have possessions and we are a poor people. Timber, flax, pork and sea foods, so welcome as a friend but King William, the land, the land, the land it will never never move. So welcome, welcome, we have seen you and your numbers, your many myriads coming. You are bringing the people to trample upon us and debase us physically and spiritually, welcome. If you do not come we will battle and blood will be shed.

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Im just trying to quote because I was brought up with that, but Im sure that I have read you the rendition as has been researched, its fairly well accurate, and the reason for that, that this was merely a whakatauki here. In fact, it is our belief here, in Panguru, when I was growing up that that was a birth of Te Whakaputanga. We never give it the cognisance that it actually deserves. But in my growing up here that was the krero, that was the krero I heard. More than that, the result of expression of that, was expression in the way that we did things in Panguru Whakarapa. Trans All the areas here... And Im sure that all my whnau who are here today express the same sort of practices. Ive heard that with some depth, Ive heard that done with some dignity and in fact with a solace and integrity it deserves. So for me this is not a laughing matter, this is a serious battle because the war is not achievable. The lifetime of claims will be perpetual and therefore we will continue to move on with that. So I want to move on now because I can be diverted and I dont need to be proliferating too long. TA

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Can I just ask you, Mr Dargaville, you were referring to the Petihana, the Petition 1831, werent you? I am. Thats the whakatauki you were talking about? I am referring to the petition you see it there on pages 5, I mean I havent read that for 56 years, I am now 66 but, however, I still can remember it. And, ah, why do you remember it? Because rongo mai taringa e son, te w kua heke mai te mea i muri nei ki t kaki tira ki konei. So I say that, and I think if I gave it to you in that rendition it is pretty well close to what I heard. The detail, of course, is quite specific. The meaning oh, the art has been articulated in many many of what Ive heard over this period of Whakaputanga, so its there and, well, its also in English. But what I say, just move onto that petition, I want to sort of move on really to probably, what was the result of that? And, you know, you can see up there, an, ng moko ng tohu, thats serious, that is the most serious thing in my life because not anyone can do a tohu like that. Only those with the mana had that right, only those who had the tkanga and the whakapapa could do that rite, and to me that is something that I think is the most unique that Ive ever seen in the world in which Ive travelled. So e ttou ma, I want to move on now and really where I want to go is really, was there a reply? Was it thrown into file 13? No, it wasnt. So hoki mai te tuhituhi, pnei te tuhituhi, this is the return, and this was written by Viscount Goderichs wrote to the King. 61

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RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD Trans RD 5 Otira, ka kite koutou te hohonu o te reta n. You can all see the depth of that letter. That letter is written with some sincerity that letter, in my view, was of goodwill. What went wrong? What went wrong? We ask that question, we labour over it at times. That at the beginning there was true attempt for the partnership that we called for, and yet it went wrong, and we all know what that wrong is now and that is a wrong that will be contested because that letter led us to 1835 and there it developed even further. Ko rongo koutou ng krero, I wont repeat it, it has gone on now for the last three hearings and it will continue to go, but all I am saying is that, right from this point, that here in growing up, we believe thats what it was. And then it was at this point, ka rongo [Indistinct] nei, ko Patuone, e, ko Nene, ko Taonui, ko Moetara, ko Matangi, who were these people? Who were these people when you hear at 9 years old, ko wai rtou? They were prominent leaders in the Hokianga with 13 others, from Pewhairangi that initiated the birth, in my view, of Te Whakaputanga. So e ttou ma, we take that point and for me thats first principles, first principles to me is where you start from. If you breach first principles, then to me you are in breach of everything that was entrusted in you. E ttou ma, I want to move on to Clause 8. RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 25 We all know that, sir. But what I want to take you back, is this, she was also really, you know, an ardent person in the beliefs of land rights when she was only 18, Judge, she led a group from Whakarapahia against the will of her father, Heremia, E Whina kaua e pera, me haere ttou te mau te mea nei ki te Kooti Dont do that, take it through the courts. We will take this to the court and they will resolve it. She said, Nah, khore, what? Already she had no confidence in him at 18. So what does she do, she went down to Whakarapa because that was our kai moana, thats where we live from, that was the basket the food basket of Panguru Whakarapa, mai ra an, and as the Holland family were digging it up to turn it into farms, Whina and her crew were burying it just as fast. Now what does that tell you? That is a statement of Whakaputanga, that is a statement of saying, we do not desire your practices in our community. So see, they conclude, and say, well, what happened? Did they lock her up? Yes, they got the Police, they were brought out here and they were arrested for trespass on your own land, but they were arrested. 62

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The short of it all is that they took political activity and then they were pardoned and more than that, the perpetrators being marine department no longer were here, and they were kicked into touch somewhere at the time. The moral to it is this; stand for your rights because you cannot trust a system to fulfil those for you. I want to go to Clause 9 because that is important for me. Our Land March let by Whina and the Bastion ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD ... involved with the Crown because I just returned from Asia. I spent two tours in Asia, I was you know, I come home and there I am being conscripted in Papakura to become a Policeman. I couldnt disobey the order, Im a soldier, but I was pitted before my people in Bastion Point in 1975. That was the most hurting part of a career of a soldier, to be commissioned to be a constable and then pitted against your people to remove those protestors from Bastion Point. Sir, the power of the constabulary is very powerful, but the power of the mana of the wairua of those people, left for me, something that I can never forget to this day. It compelled me to resign from a profession that I had a belief in and then I took up the reign now to endeavour to move that mindset towards tkanga to fight for the rights of my people. TH RD Kia ora. I penei i a koutou whakaaro e ttou ma, i haere mtou te tini, kua hoki muri ahau ki r o mtou o te rua tekau ma waru, te tangata nei a ia te whawhai tuatahi ka hokia nei ki te whawhai tuarua e penei ake te krero, hei aha. Hei aka kua wtea tnei rohe o Aotearoa, Niu Tirena m Ngai Ttou. Ka tae atu mtou ki reira, e whawhai ana mtou ki ng iwi nei, ko taua krero r an, n mtou te whenua e aha ake n koutou i knei? Ka hoki mai koe ki te kinga I thought to myself, many of us and the memories return to those of the 2A Battalion, he went to the First World War, he went to the Second World War and for what? So that good may accrue to the people of New Zealand. We went overseas to battle and they said, This is our land, what are you doing here? When you come home... When you come home and then you find youre in the same situation. So there we are, you have that issue really of where we stand today. But I have to say now, it is fine because we have all the evidence that takes us forward and we will get settlement, we will get redress. The reason I am reflecting on these events is ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF

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... outsiders, this led to Te Triti in 1840.

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I have just gone over that and, then of course, 1835 prior to that. Over here caused a different from what I heard when I was growing up, because I must comeback home, for first principles for me to understand really why it really was. The krero back here really was mainly about ko mtou ng rangatira o tnei whenua, we are the chiefs of this land. TH RD Kia ora, tika, pono. The land is ours. You know, sir, I never heard, Judge, the word kaitiaki, I never heard this in Panguru, because kaitiaki to us really was someone looking after that until I come home. We were always on the ground, ko mtou ng rangatira. Kaitiaki to me was only just yesterday, I never heard it back in the 40s. I want you to get rid off that word, destroy it, because it is not ours. Someone told you, youre only just a caretaker, well you can be, we cant. E hoa ma, this goes on in that particular clause, and again, as I conclude on that point, you know: I look at it that Im suddenly pitted against my own ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 20 ... Ngti Ruanui maintained their own kawa jealously. You know, here in lies some of the things that Pkeh have a problem with. Theres one marae on the hill, theres one down here, and yet we actually will battle to sustain those two significant marae importances, and yet we are the same family. If I take this further and we go out to Ngti Reinga, we go out te uri o tai, it is the same, they jealously guard their mana and their tkanga, so that was what Whakaputanga was about and thats not only to do with Hokianga, that is to do with every community that I grew up in. Again, now were here, sir, they were becoming debased, we were becoming debased because, again, the 1908 Maori Affairs Act the 1954 Act again brought tauiwi in here, and as I look at that flag now, its started to come down, it wasnt around at the time, because it seemed to me that is not the appropriate thing to do. Fall into line and youll be looked after. And, you know, when I look at that I think, how wrong can you be. Some of the things I want to move down Clause 14 is: 35 To understand this a bit more... and I heard it this morning, I tautoko those krero which Im not going to go over right now in Clause 15, and that is Kupes arrival ki Hokianga. Some people have in fact literally put it better than I ever could and, kia ora koutou. Because for us, koira te timatanga, ngari maku e h e weri ng huatanga e ttou ma, e te Taraipiunara, koutou te Karauna e noho mai nei koutou otira, mtou i knei e mahi tonu ana mtou ng kaupapa tuku

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iho o Ngai Rtou, otira, kia t manawa koutou, kia t koutou i roto i ng tikanga, kaua koutou e neke, pupuri, pupuri, ake tonu atu, ake tonu atu. N reira e ttou ma, koira ng huatanga o roto i tnei rohe o mtou. Trans 5 That is the commencement. Tribunal and the Crown you sit here and we, we are still working and adhering to the principles left by our ancestors so that we holdfast to our culture, holdfast forever. And so ladies and gentlemen these are the things that have impacted upon our area. 10 RD I just want to sort of detract for one moment from my paper. Last night I went up to the marae and they were killing pigs, e hoa ma, we could get locked up for that these days Maringi ng krero, e hoa kua mahia ng mai mai r an. These are the customs from the old days. Were been doing this forever, and yet if you somewhere in town, called ringing out to somebody, arrest those people, theyre killing pigs. What Im saying, sir, right today, they are still practicing against all the ture around them and Im proud of that, I am proud of that. He utu n rtou, he utu n rtou ki ng tikanga tuku iho. So I want to move now, I want to move, ki te taha tku whaea ki te taha o tk whaea, ki te taha hoki ki Hongi Hika. Ka hoki au ki a ia, i te mea ko tk tpuna ki te taha nei o tk whaea, otira n Whaingaroa i hoki mai a ia i runga i ng whakaarotanga o Hongi Hika, 1772.. Trans 25 My mother and to Hongi Hika. He is my ancestor on my mothers side, from Whangaroa, he returned here in 1772...

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RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD We need to look for some friend, someone that will come in and be with us and that we do not lose the sovereignty that we have of our land. And that was his vision, he tangata matakite ahakoa i a i haere ki te pakanga a roto nei o mtou o Ngapuhi, Te Rarawa nei, puta noa te rohe, he tangata matakite tear. He was a visionary. Although he went to internal battles between Ngpuhi and Te Arawa and throughout the land, he was a visionary. And one was to say, sir, i roto I ng krero nei ahau, what would have been the shape of the petition in 1835 if he was still alive? You can only make some sort of derision about how that might look. But I roto i a au, ko tera te rangatira o Ngapuhi te timatanga ahakoa e kiia nei i roto i te iwi tangata patu tangata tn. But to me he was the chief of Ngpuhi, although some say that he was a killer. 65

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I just want to sort of look on, if I go down to Clause 20: Hongi Hika was a pathfinder, a trader, a military campaigner ...

RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 5 ... kia whakatotia te mana i roto i ng hap. He fought to ensure that to reinstate the rangatiratanga i roto i ng hap. He was a believer in that, and if he didnt believe in that he could have taken it off anyway. Why did he not practice it? Because he believed kei reira ki te mana. Tna herenga ki ng mihinare... 10 He went there and people says, What are you doing there? Ka haere ki te tikinga mihinare Marsden ma. So when you look at that I move down and I say, well 22. In addition to the internal political volatility of the North ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 15 RD ...opportunities with which to address longstanding enemies. So he sought, as a medium for access, and therefore he became what did he become? He became the protector, not because he was being converted, but he became the protector. 20 His strategy was to outgun the opponents ... this is what you call a military man, outgun the opponents. His ends, however, were always ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 25 Trans RD ... make them his own, placing them beyond the reach of others. tahi e mea ana e homai tn [INDISTINCT] ko wai au ki te pp i ng mihinare nei? Some people say, Who the hell was he to hold onto missionaries? He protected it because he knew thats where the answer was, if he wanted to get access. And to make them his own, placing them beyond the reach ... 30 RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD ... Petihana and again, Te Whakaputanga, ka tae atu ki Te Triti. Kua haere au inianei ki te tpuna o Matangi, Matangi ko taku tpuna tnei, no taku kinga o mtou. Kua rongo koutou ng krero n roto i a Utikura, Ppoto, wena whi katoa. Ko ia te tangata rangatira o tnei o ng nohonga. Ka nui ng krero kua t mona. ngari tera tangata e 66

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tonu i mtua kaha i te mea koia i haina m mtou te Petihana, tae atu ar ki te whakaminenga, Te Whakaputanga, otira i roto i te whakatautanga o te Tiriti. Trans 5 Turning now to Matangi. He is my ancestor from this home. You have heard the stories about Utakura and the other places, he was the chief of those places. There are many stories written about him, but he signed the petition for us and also for He Whakaputanga and Te Triti o Waitangi. So it is important that we actually sort of recognise that, and we do, we do with jealous jealously we do that. I want to move now because, you know, its always said, Kei a ki ng wahine, I get a bit annoyed sometime when they say women have not say. Im going to go back here to a lady here, e wahine, 1800, koi e te tino rangatira well, there you go. I say we need to wake up and read our history at times, because we did have powerful women, ko ng ko Kahu whero tnei: Ko ia te rangatira wahine i toa nei i te whnau mai i ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 20 ... te mana ki te whakatau i te rohe whenua. She was power, she had empower of the land, she was the person that actually could decide how the land should be divided. She knew the boundaries, and I heard that just yesterday, Ttahi o aku mokopuna i krero, tera ki t ki k, ki k, ka huri koe koin ng mtini i takotohia te rohe ptae o tnei wahine. Tnei wahine ka kite koe ko tana toa i penei ake. Ki te hiahia whenua te tangata, haere mai koutou ki roto i a ia, ka tono, ako ng rangatira i knei, ko ia te mea tuku whenua. Ko tana krero penei ake k tupuranga, ki te tuku te whenua ki a koutou, kaua e hokona. Kei te tuku au te whenua ki a koutou pupuri koutou ki te whenua, ngari kia kaha koutou ki te whawhai ki ng mea e hiahia ana ki te whakaaro i tn whenua. Ki te thae, kia kaha tonu koutou. Trans She delineated all the motions laid on the lands of this woman. This woman she was a chiefly person. If a person wanted land, although the chiefs here, she was the one who portioned land. She would say, I will give you land, do not sell it. Holdfast to that land but be fast to fight against those who want to take away the land, so be steadfast in that. I might take this a bit further, sir. I want to say, yet tested by saying, she also gifted it ki Pomiparia. Now that would be controversial thought that someone would do that. Ngari whakakai ka to te iwi. ngari, i whakaae katoa te iwi, ko wai ahau? I whakaae rtou, tukuna. ngari penei te krero tuku. Ehara m hoko, m tuku. I r w ka mea au i a ia n, where is it now? E hoa ma, n Pomparia e hoki atu ki ng kaituku. Khai ana te Kwana i pera, n pnei k te titiro ki ng huatanga o te mana tuku o a ttou mtua tpuna. 67

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N ka hoki au ki tn huatanga i te mea, i roto i nei huatanga n, ka kii mtou, e phea ana koutou? N ka tini wahine, he wahine au whenua, he wahine kaha ki te tiuki ng mahinga ki te h o rtou te pakanga. N ka penei ttahi taima, ka haere a Heremia kua hiahia ki te whawhai. Ki tera taha o te moana, kua haere ia te whawhai otira, kei k iwi o te Hikatu. Ko tnei te taima ka toru nei e taea atu nei i roto i a ia, ka mea, te wahine nei m haere nuku i a ia. Tana tae tonu ki reira, ko Taitama Pua Moetara tana patu, ka p ana atu ki a ia, i a ia tana whriki i runga i tana patu. N ka penei te ringa, ka mahue atu ki reira. Ka haere mai a Mohi Thae ka mea mai m mutu ttou i tnei mahi ka noho rtou ka penei ai te krero, Whakahoki atu r e Heremia, a koutou e Matangi ma, a koutou katoa, hoki koutou ki tera wahi. Ko koutou tn o te Raki, o Hokianga, a Moetara, koutou e noho mai ana ttou ki te Wahap, he pena tonu tana w, i a ia e puni n, noho ake ake tonu atu. N wai k tera mea hei tohu? N te wahine, n te wahine i tpui te tangata ki te patu. Ka mutu nei tangata, he tangata toa. He tangata patu tangata, e hoa ma, a Heremia, e rua ng w e hereheretia e mau tnei, m te aha? M te patu tangata, ngari i runga i te tikanga o te Whakaputanga, i roto i te tikanga o te Whakaputanga, kei te hiahia koutou ki te whnau o to mtou whenua otira, ko te toto he utu. Koira te kaupapa o n mea. N me haere tonu au ki reira, i te mea, e haere ana te w, kua rki ana a Wiremu, ttahi o ng rangatira nei e knei, koia roto i a Wairea. Koia i te mea kaha i o wena w, hoki muri, hoki mua mai nei ttou 1851 i aianei n, koia te kaha ki te whawhai m ng whenua o Wairea. Ka kitea n i nei whawhai, me mau ki roto i te Kooti Whenua, i te w i a au e tupu ake n. Trans But the people agreed, the people of Waihou agreed, Let the land go to Pompallier, but they said Tuku, not sell give, not sell. Pompallier returned that land to the people who gave it, the government does not do that. So we look at the mana of the people who gave the land in the first place. Now I return to these things because we say How are you? Now this woman, Kahu Whero was an agriculturalist. She was a steadfast protector of those who fell in battle. Now one time Heremia went to war, to the other side of the waters, he went to battle Te Hikutu. This time Kahu Whero said when she arrived there Moetara had taken out his weapon and she intervened and she placed her cloak on that patu and she left it there, and Mohi Tawhai came and said, Let us cease this fighting, and so they sat and they said, you Heremia, you stay on that side; Matangi, you return to your side of the river you stay there on that side. Moetara, you stay on this side of the harbour, from that time to this time, that is how it has remained. Now who organised that, it was a woman, it was the women who ceased the fighting. And these men were chiefs, these men were tried and true warriors. Heremia, there were two times Heremia was arrested and jailed in Mount Eden for killing people, but under the tikanga the customs of Te Whakaputanga, if you want to take my land blood will be shed. Now carrying straight on because time is fine. 68

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Rikihana Wiremu was another chief here. He was in Waireia. He was the determined person. We are looking at the time of 1851. He was the staunch fighter for the lands of Waireia. He saw these lands and took them into the Maori Land Court, because when I was growing up 5 RD The Maori Land Court was where we all sort of went. We still go there today, hoping for resolution, and yet we keep on going back to them. They were doing that right back in 1850 Tnei tangata, Wiremu Rikihana he fought through those courts. He fought through them for the rights of his people to have their land back. He lost on that occasion. He lost. But he did make an agreement that in losing that the compromise was that the Kauri trees, all those taongas would be at the ownership of the people who were the beneficiaries, those who were the whakapapa, and he even lost that eventually. They never saw a smidgen of anything like it. He haere an tonu whahai right now. E haere ana tohu whawhai. Trans RD The battle goes on. So when I look at, what was the end result, well, it is 1851, and in 1987 someone got kind and decided oh, we had better give that land back. Ka tukua te whenua ki a rtou, ngari, mhio ana ttou ki n te nama, ki n ng momo [INDISTINCT] te ao. The land was given to them, but we know there were many expenses on that land But what I am saying is, 76 years of pursuing this kind of demand, isnt that resilience, isnt that a passion? And here we are starting the same sort of thing again. We must continue. E hoa ma ko ng whakaaro o nei o te Tino Rangatira, he mahi pakanga, he hanga pwene m ng mea katoa. E noho nei ttou i nei r. These are the thoughts of tino rangatiratanga. We are looking for that, what is our identity, o ttou marae, o ttou p. These things of erecting pa and waging wars, our marae, our p. I have heard all the talk which I think which I think is just incredible, because it brings back to you what it was about. Then I try and relate those things back to me bringing [Indistinct] up here, and I look at where are we now? Also, we have really a desolate Panguru, this place was wealthy, and so was every other place. ngari, kei k e haere nei n? Koia ttou i t ai ki te pakanga. But what is the state now, that is why we stand to fight. I will not sort of dwell on it too much, because I havent too much time to sort of be about Heremia, but kei reira ng tuhituhi, page 19, Clause 27. So theyre all there for you to read and you have briefs before you.

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E kore au pa ki a Whina because most of you know the story and it has been told, and I think she, in herself, is really a matriarch in her own right and I will find it is someone, there are not too many people who will ever, ever try to replace her. 5 What I want to do is to come back to 29, that over here is the continual call and cry, ng rangatira e pnei. I tukuiho na ng rangatira o te w, tae noa mai ki tnei ... RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 10 ... our declaration and a covenant of independence for Aotearoa. E te Taraipiunara, as I put it before you, ka aroha au ki a rtou, because I see it when I look at that I believe that really we have a long way to go down this pathway. I want to go now ki Ngpuhi ki Whangaroa, to my mums side, e hoa ma, 32, page 20. Ng tau tangia tk whaea tnei, ara ko mtou Tangiwai. He tpuna whaea tnei heke mai i roto i ng tikanga o rtou mtou, atu r ki roto i te tangata nei i moe mai i roto i a mtou ko Hika, n roto i ng huatanga ttou ma, me penei ake te krero, kua kiritipa nei te tangata, ko ia. Trans 20 RD My mother, Ngatau Tangihia, she is a grand-dame, descending and under the customs and she married Hika, and let me say Kiritipane is the man. Roera was the daughter of the rangitira, Maukihau who was

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RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD 25 he mana continued through her mother, Roeras, role as Kaitiaki. My counsel has told me that I have got to put on the turbo. E ttou ma, so will move to that. We have pretty well come to summation, but I want to sort of say this anyway, if there was the opportunity to do anything you say: Ka patai mai te Taraipiunara ki ahau 30 RICHARD DARGAVILLE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF RD a Hobson, A Busby, a Williams. N reira ki a ttou katoa kua tae ki te w o taku tuhituhitanga kua oti. ngari e te Karauna, [INDISTINCT] kua kite ttou i mua i te aroaro o te pakanga o Ngapuhi ki a koutou. Ki a koe e Taraipiunara, ng mihi ki a koutou. Hei te mea tu mahi, he hakarongo, he rppoto i tera krero, ngari maku e titiro ko taku aroha khai k he niho hei ki ng hiahia me ng moemoe o taku iwi. N reira, me huri atu r. To all of us here I conclude my submission, but the Crown, we will see each other in time and the battles of Ngpuhi against you. Greeting to 70

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you, the Tribunal, because your work is to listen and condense the words, but my love and the sorrow is you have no teeth, you have no teeth to KARANGA 5 MIHI RD I just thought it was important that I complete this by saying that, you know, I pay due respects to Matiu Rata. Matiu Rata I believe allowed us to stand here today. Matiu Rata was a visionary. Matiu Rata saw that the only way, and he kept on saying, the only way for us is the ballot box. The only way for us to go forward is to impose upon them the will of imposing legislation within the framework of existing parliaments. And he has done that. I know that most of us do not wish to have that, but at least what he has done is allowed you and I here to stand to address the Tribunal. So i roto i n e Matiu, haere koe haere, kua oti atu. Huri r ki ttou, kua mutu ki knei he mihi atu ana ki a koutou e te Taraipiunara, he mihi atu tnei ki te Karauna penei i k tpuna i haere mai te iwi ki roto te whare, kaua e takahia, tirohia, hakaputa i n krero, ngari m te w, ka tutaki an ttou huri noa, ttou katoa, kia ora mai n ttou. Matiu, farewell. Greeting to the Tribunal and greeting to the Crown, and when you come into our house do not trample upon our house, but in time we will meet again.

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Kia ora koutou te kainga, kia ora ttou katoa. I tua atu an e hine ahakoa ka mea ko [INDISTINCT] taua, e titiro nei rtou ki a taua e titiro o wera k tuahine n Whaingaroa ki a ttou e titiro a Ngapuhi e t mai koutou, t mai ng rangatira o tn, o tn, kia haere mai ttou, ka hokia mai nei taonga no Ngai Taua, ng hap o Ngapuhi. Kia ora ttou. They are gazing down upon us and they are gazing down upon us and the chiefs have stood to go forward so that the possessions of the hap of Ngpuhi may be returned to them.

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Kihi Ngatai questions Richard Dargaville [12.21 pm]


KN Kia ora Rhari, i rongo ake ttou inanahi nei ng krero m tnei mea te tuku m tnei mea te hoko, hoko whenua. Whakamramahia mai ki a mtou ou whakaaro m tera huatanga te tuku, te hoko me te koha. Rihari, yesterday we heard about the tuku and selling of land. Explain to us your thoughts about tuku, seeding of land and the hoko, the selling of land and the koha. Ko te tuatahi, maku ko te tuku me penei ake nei. Ng whenua katoa i knei me tukuna mai ki a mtou. Me tuku mai nei whenua ki a mtou. M te tpuna k nei, ko te whakapapa te whenua tuku iho. Ko te kaupapa i muri ake i tnei penei ake ana ehara ana mtou e hoko. Me tuku. Ko wai ahau ki te tuku mai whenua ki a koe e hoko nei a au. ngari ki reira an ng rangi e krero e kiia nei, i penei te wahin o Ngawhero ka 71

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mea aua tahi i roto i a Wairea, kei reira aua tahi whenua pai. Mena whakaae ana koutou ng uri, hei orangatia n mu, kkiria te tae kkiri, hei hoko te whenua tuku, hei aha? Hei painga m ng uri, ehara ma te tangata noa iho. 5 N te taha ki te koha, i roto i knei, kii ahau e rongo tera ngari i rongo au i te tini o te maha o ng kupu e kiia nei nei whenua, me tuku ki tera, me tuku ki tera, pera te tangata nei a Pomaparia, me tuku. ngari, khai e mau tonu i mea ana, nku inianei, ka hoki mai ia otira ka tukua mai ki te iwi, kua ea mtou e kaha ai ki te haere ki reira ki te tiki i tn nei ng whenua, a ka hoki mai ki knei. Trans Firstly, tuku to me all the lands of this area was ceded to us, were given to us by our ancestors through whakapapa and that is why it is called whenua tukuiho. We did not buy it, we will not buy it, it was given to us. Who am I to sell land that has been given to me but there are other words that say, in Waireia there are some good lands there. If you, the descendants, agree that they be a sustenance for ye devise a strategy to sell the ceded land as benefits for the people. Now on kohad land, I did not hear of that concept but I heard many words about ceding, tuku land, giving land such as the land that was ceded to Pompallier but he did not hold onto it, it was not as if he said this is my land, in due time he returned the land to the people and that is why we were able to go and get his remains and bring them back home. KN 25 Trans AS 30 Kia ora m tera whakamrama e Rhari, tnei ka mihi ake r ki a koe i ng krero kua puta mai i a koe m tnei huatanga otira, m ng huatanga katoa. Thank you Rihari, thank you very much, thank you very much for your evidence for this matter, thank you very much. Sir, can I just ask a follow-up question, I just want to be clear Dick, it is very important for me. The kaumatua just asked you a question about the tikanga of koha. I am very familiar with the tikanga of ta koha, are you able to amplify your answer in light of just that adjustment. He rerek te tkh ki te kh ki ahau, ngari he whakaaro ki a koe, m whakamrama mai. Ta koha is different to koha in my knowledge. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, ah, yes, and I perhaps if I can try and do that to the best of my understanding in what Ive heard. Whenua here, I cant speak for anyone else. We never use the word koha mo te whenua. ngari m ng taonga ki raro, ka mhio i Wairea, i Wareware, I saw that there and i kohangia he kauri ki tn, ki tn hei koha. But when I say tkh, ki ahau, [INDISTINCT] ki te whenua. ngari ko ng mea i runga, ma tera iwi i tuku hei koha ki tera inianei. ngari ko te tuku, he penei ake ana, m te w tn pea me whakahoki mai i tn tuku ehara ake ana tonu atu.

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But for the treasures, I know in Waireia and Warawara a kauri was gifted, there koha would kick in ta koha, it does not pertain to land but those things above the land, those were koha, but tuku is land ceded but in time you had best return it, it is not forever. Thats the difference, tuku was never perpetual, but it was to a point that at sometime you would return it. Koha was really relevant to the taonga and I think it is consistent with first principles, we do that, it is our wealth and I have seen it practised here. Ka tae mai te tangata kua heke ki te kauri tree, he koha tera, ngari me ptai ki a DoC e hoa ma! Ko DoC k te rangatira? A man came and took a kauri tree but we must have to ask DOC, that is not right. DOC is the boss now. Kia ora, Mr Rihari. I understand that it is now time for lunch. Ae kia ora e te Judge, e ttou ma, he mihi ana ki a Rhari me te katoa o ng kaikrero o te ata nei, we are about to have lunch, there is one more car kua hanga hh k au wenei panui I would like to commend Rihari and the rest of the witnesses this morning, I am getting a bit sick of giving out these notices about vehicles ---

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WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 2 [12.25 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 3 STARTS
Hearing Resumes PT 25 The next evidence that will be given will be that, it is somebody who has made a number of appearances before the Tribunal so far even though they have been unofficial. This is his first official piece of evidence that he will give before the Tribunal but I want the Tribunal to take his words to heart. It is a very short brief, it is a common sense brief of somebody who has come, who has learnt about these origins, these constitutional origins of this country and he is giving his perspectives which are common sense which we ask no more from the Tribunal in the common sense that Mr Owen Kingi will discuss now. An, an. Te kitehanga i o koutou kanohi, ng hap, ng uri, ng tino rangatiratanga, tn koutou. Ng mihi ana ki te tepu, e te Judge, e mihi, e mihi, e kihi. Tn rawa atu koe, an kia kite atu koutou kanohi ora, ka hari. E te ruhi o ng whakaahua e t i a mtou, , te rangatira, a Leafy ma, me o koutou ropu o te rua tekau ma waru, Mori Battalion, tn koe. Tk papa, e ng nama 801405 Regimental number, second expeditionary force of the Battalion, A Company. N reira tn koe, tn koutou, tn koutou.

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E ng tangata rongonui, e Rangi, tn koe e Ngapuhi. E Judgie, kei roto i te rangimrie kia puta a ng krero, e rere ana te wairuatanga o rtou ma, a ka mihi ake nei ki tnei r. Tn koutou. Tn koe an e te whanaunga, e pinitia te taha n te Karauna, kia kaha, kia kaha. I a mutua ng mahi o te taha o te Karauna, kene pea ka hoki mai, i ahu mai a mtou ana te huarahi he pai, n reira, he wairua a ng krero ki a koutou ng tepu, tn koutou. Trans Greetings to the hapu and whnau, greetings to the Judge and the top table, greetings. I see your face and my heart is filled with joy and your references to Hairangi Leaf and the other soldiers of the battalion, my father, his number 801405, his regimental number. To the illustrious people here present Ranginui Walker, Ngapui, greetings to you, greetings Judge and may peace reign while I give my evidence on the histories of our ancestors, greetings, greetings to my kin. On the side of the Crown be strong, be strong and when you have finished your task with the Crown perhaps you will come back to the warmth, warm embrace of the people and so too the members of the legal counsel, greetings to you all. I waited 260 years, excuse me - - -

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OK JC WAIATA JC Questions if there are any Sir, the Crown. Tn ttou te whare. Tn koutou hoki te tepu, tera taha o te whare. Tn taha ko ng wahine o tnei taha, tn koutou katoa. Ko tnei tk teina e t ana au ki te tautoko i a ia. Tn koutou. Greetings to the people and to the members of the Tribunal and Crown, this is my younger brother and I stand here to support him, greetings. E te rangatira tn koe, tn koe kua whakaputa mai ng ahuatanga ng whakaaro ki waenganui i te whare nei, ki waenganui i te roopu whakamana i te Tiriti, tnei r ka mihi, ka mihi, ka mihi, tn koe. Greetings Sir, thank you for expressing your thoughts and feelings to the people here present and before the Waitangi Tribunal so we thank you very much for that. Our next witness. Miss Sandri who is the next witness. Tena koe, your Honour, the next witness is Mr Erimana Taniora. His - - Thank you. - - - brief of evidence is document number C2. 74 Tn koutou. Tena koe Mr Kingi.

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C2 - - Yes, your Honour. - - - just give us a second to find it. Thank you. Your Honour, there was to be a PowerPoint that accompanied this presentation, however, due to some technical difficulties and then the power outage this morning, we are now seeking leave to file this as a document in a couple of weeks time. As your Honour pleases. I will now hand it over to Mr Taniora to begin his presentation. Kotahi haora. Tihei mauri ora ki a ttou e takat ora nei, i te mata o te whenua ki a koutou e te hau kinga e te hunga takakai, koutou o ng ahik, e pwhiri nei ki a mtou e whakaekea ki runga i tnei o ttou marae, karanga mai, karanga mai. Karanga mai ki a Ngti Uru o te whanau pani o roto o Whangaroa. Kua tatu mai nei ki raro iho i to koutou mana i tnei r e mihi ki te taumata pkrero, ng pae tapu, ng kk waha nui o te Wao nui Tne, tn ttou. Tn hoki an ki ng reo prekareka o muri. Ng reo karanga, ng reo waiata, tn koutou, tn koutou, take a photo! E korekore, rawarawa, atuatu e mtou te hakari te turi ki te teina tangata k atu, Penei an ki a koutou e te Kwanatanga pea, e hui tahi ng tino rangatiratanga o ng hap i a tau, i a tau, hei hakari ng ture Mori i ng tikanga Mori kia tika ai te kai o te waka kia mau p te rongo, otira, an te pae o te hua reka, o te noho tahitanga o ng tuakana me ng teina i raro i te whakaaro kotahi. Me ako a ttou tamariki i kawe rtou o Te Tiriti o Waitangi, n ptaketaketanga he rangatiratanga, he manaakitanga, he whanaungatanga, he kaip, tira kei ta ko te aka mtua ko tn ingoa, e mea ana nei o ttou kaumatu ko kuia ko te Kotahitanga tn. N reira kia tangihia ng mate kua tuku atu ng roimata aroha ki a rtou. Kua hinga mai, kua hinga atu nei , ka ngaro atu i ng tirohanga ka ruhi e ng mate, haere, haere, haere atu r.

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Greetings to everyone here. To the home people and to those who are preparing the food for us and welcoming us here onto our marae. Welcome us. We of the Whanaupani of Whangaroa. We are here under your mana today and observations to the taumata krero and to the orators and speakers. And greetings to the voices at the back, to the speakers and singers. Greetings one and all. We will never bend our knee to another, just like you, the Crown. Each year the hap of the area each year come together and re-strengthen ourselves and re-strengthen the waka. How sweet and pleasant it is to have the brethren sitting in togetherness and unity. We should teach our children the convenient of the Treaty of Waitangi, its principles and the rangatiratanga and manaakitanga implicit within, and the family ties within, and our elders say and speak of unity.

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Let us lament those who have passed on, who fall and are whipped over. So we say to those fallen, farewell. ET 5 Just in 1986 I was told a story that would change my life. Before I start, my Uncle Wire was not my uncle, but somehow we were raised to call him uncle. But in fact he was my grandfathers younger brother. So technically speaking he was my grand-uncle. A long time ago (obviously well before I was born) there stood a family home not far from where my sisters house is built in Pupuke. Inside this house there were lots of taonga, Judge. There were old paintings and portraits of our ancestors, Taniora Arapata. Inside this old place were numerous heirlooms and treasures. In particular a greenstone patu that belonged to Ngatiuru. There was also a taiaha that belonged to Patuone himself so I have been told. There were reports that there was an old musket, some say it belonged to Ngahuruhuru. However most of the important treasures of all were three old books and the author of these books was my great-grandfather, Tuwha Taniora Arapata. Included also were also whakapapa books title Pukapuka Kauwhau. These books contained detailed accounts of our tribal history and also genealogy going right back to the beginning. Once story that has emerged is the first map done by Tuki and Huru apparently we had a copy in this house. Then one day, e ttou ma, our house went up in flames literally went up in smoke. We lost everything all our treasures, our precious Pukapuka Kauwhau was lost. This certainly was a very sad day for us in Pupuke. My grand-grandmother was called Takirau, she was the kaitiaki of this house and all its belongings. Ever since this tragic event back in when I was told in 1986 it has impacted on my so seriously that ever since that date until now it has impacted on me to this very day, right here. 30 Since this tragic event it has been a personal quest to salvage, retrieve photographs, portraits and taonga and also to create and reconstruct some genealogies and histories that was lost on that day. So Judge, today is an important day for me as I am going to try and give you some evidence from a rangitahis perspective, from some of the stuff that has been researched, certainly through the old people that I had spoken to when our house burnt down.

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Erimana Taniora reads to his Brief [1.51 pm]


ET 40 The next seven pages of my brief of evidence explain why I am giving this evidence. They explain who I am and who Ngatiuru and Te Whanaupani are. Although I would love to talk to you until the cows come home about who we are I think you are better off reading those seven pages, your Honour. I realise the Tribunal has particular kaupapa for this hearing and a typed timeline for doing so, so instead of reading through it I simply ask the 76

Tribunal to carefully take note of who my hap and my tpuna are, especially Te Puhi in paragraph 24, and there is a picture of him. So can I please ask the Tribunal to turn to paragraph 31 please? This brings me directly in the era of emergence of He Whakaminenga, He Whakaputanga and the Triti. ERIMANA TANIORA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF ET As you will see at the back of my brief, you will see a bit of an appendix A there. The Taniora Rihari manuscript is entitled Te Tuku a Ngahuruhuru raua ko Hori Te Ara i Maunga Wetere hei noho mo te Hahi Weteriana. The receiving of the Mount Wesley, for the Wesleyan church. - - - Judge. You can read that and we can just move on.

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ERIMANA TANIORA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF ET 15 Trans Just quickly before I move on, Judge, I just heard a bit of krero about tuku. Pai te tuku a tna waka hoki mai. Tuku is good because in time it returns. Kaitiaki relates to the rangatiratanga under Te Triti because if is tkanga to look after the people in your rohe. And if you know about Ngatiuru, thats kind of like what weve been doing for years. ERIMANA TANIORA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 20 ET While we are on contacts, 1807 the commerce ended in Whangaroa. He brought diseases. It was one of the epidemics that my people faced in Whangaroa when he came in for the night, dropped his watch and he peed off again. As a result, if you have done any research in a lot of our whakapapa in the area there are holes, if I can say, in that whakapapa, largely because of the loss of a lot of people through this epidemic in 1807 the second one I have been told. Then, Judge, we talk about the Boyd incident another contact. There was a few of them. I am beginning to feel Pkeh myself. 30 The Boyd incident was again related to a breach of tkanga... so theres a theme coming through here. Theres a theme coming through here and it seems to be a theme of not good contact. ERIMANA TANIORA CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF ET 35 That is common sense, is it not? I want to be the first to finish with inside my hour so I am going to go straight to my conclusion.

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No reira, e te whnau e te iwi N reira e te whanau, e te iwi kainga koutou katoa e pwhiri nei i a mtou tn koutou. Tn koutou e noho ake nei i tnei pipi no Whangaroa, tn an koutou, koutou r o te tepu r, koutou r o te Tribunal, ng mihi tnei ki a koutou katoa, otira ki a ttou i ng whaea, i ng mtua r o ng whanau me ng hap, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora tatou. So, ladies and gentlemen, to the home people who welcomed us here into the marae, thank you. Thank you for listening patiently to this pipi from Whangaroa. Thank you very much. To the members of the Tribunal, greetings to you all. And to all of us, the elders, the hap. Tn koutou, kia ora ttou.

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Tn koe.

I listen to the voice of Ngpuhi, how joyful it is and playful to the ear and how pleasant it is to listen. Although I am but a mere child a small bird can reach the highest branches of the tree. I can ascend to the top most branches. Standing among the summits of the mountain ranges of the sacred house of Ngapuhi. Does the Crown have any questions?

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Helen Carrad questions Erimana Taniora [2.41 pm]


HC I just had one question. In your evidence I think it is around well, one place is around paragraph 105 where you talk about the missionaries also breached tikanga because they did not understand Te Ao Mori. Would you accept though that as the missionaries spent more time in the area they would have gained some understanding of that? Sure, absolutely. I think in the end they did, yes. And would you accept that for example Henry Williams, he would be someone who would have had a reasonably good understanding? I think the person that we referred as James Shepherd, because he was part of that missionary. That Henry fellow was not too much part of us but he was part of the church scene, but certainly James Shepherd yes, for sure. It was one of those precarious relationships in the end that worked itself out well, it had to. Thank you. I do not have any further questions, but thank you.

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Judge Coxhead questions Erimana Taniora [2.42 pm]


JC I just have one question, Mr Taniora, and a theme that has been discussed by a number of the witnesses is regarding the issue of trade and He Whakaputanga and Te Triti, there being a trade aspect to those agreements whereby they consolidated the trading that was going on between the two parties, but in your krero that doesnt seem to be the case

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and Heremaia seems to, I suppose entered into those agreements with a different kaupapa. ET 5 JC ET JC 10 Trans Definitely he had a different slant on the world and certainly he managed and transacted things in a hap way. Yes. Were they involved in any trade at that time or was this not a factor which they were? Yes. Oh, absolutely. You have made a point that I did not cover too well in my brief. Hopefully yes. Okay, thank you. Koira ng ptai, n reira ka nui ng mihi ki a koe e t nei ki te whakamrama mai ng krero o rtou ma. And you also get a gold star for finishing in your time period. Those are the questions of the Tribunal, thank you very much for standing and presenting your evidence of clarification within your time period. And you also get a gold star for finishing within your time period. 15 ET JC OK Just give back our whenua, brother. Tn koe. [INDISTINCT] ka hono, ka taea e te whanaunga o te Pupuke, n ko te Pupuke, n Te Teara, n Te Teara, te Hongi Heke, n te Pupuke, n reira tautoko ng krero i puta i mua ki a koutou i rongo ana koutou he mea, he waewae, n reira tn koutou e awhi mai he aha te tikanga o rtou ma. Tn koutou. This is my kin, we are Te Pupuke and Hone Heke and so I support his words, his evidence to you. I am looking that way, wondering who the next presenter is. Not me, sir. On the programme we have Mitai Kawiti? [AUDIO INDISTINCT, TOO FAR AWAY] e, kia ora ttou, e Oneroa Oneroa i tnei w, ko te kaikrero ko Mitai Kawiti, me krero ttou i te w o te kapu tii kia mhio katoa peheangia ana to ttou kaikrero. Kia ora. N reira e Mtai, kei a koe te w. The speaker now is me, Mitai Paraone-Kawiti. We spoke during tea so we shall speak during the cup of tea about what is happening next. Mitai, the time is yours. HAKA & KARANGA

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Mitai Paraone-Kawiti reads to his Brief [2.47 pm]


MK Te mihi tuatahi he mihi atu ki te runga rawa, nana i homai, nana nei i tango mai nana nei ng mea katoa. N reira tn koe e p. Mihi ana ki te whare e t nei, te papa i waho r, tn r korua, tn korua. He mihi atu ki te hau kainga a Ngti Manawa, he mihi atu ki to koutou kaha ki te whngai i a mtou i roto i tnei w, i tnei hui ataahua ng kaikrero, ataahua te htori, n reira e koutou ma, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora huihui mai ttou. A koutou ma, ka nohonoho mai nei a tnei te w tika, ka whakahokia mai i a ttou, ara ko wai ttou? I te timatanga o te ao, ko Ihoa Matuakore, taka mai, puta atu ng atua Mori, ka taka mai, ki a Tiki, ka taka mai ki a Maui. Ara te timatanga o ttou uri, ko te Waiariki nui o te Rangi. Ko ng waka e toru o te Waiariki, te tuatahi ko te Uruao, ko te tuarua ko te Tamarereti, ko te tuatoru ko te Rapahoe, nei waka ng waka huruhuru $manu. Tnei te whanaungatanga i a mtou e nohonoho mai nei o roto o Nguru. E ng whanaungatanga ki a Ngti Manawa, ki a ttou ng heke n Te Rangi Tauwawaro. N reira, ka mihi a Manaia, ki a whakatere, ka whakatere ng mihi whakaaro ki a korua Manaia ki a Moehau, ko Moehau, ka whakahoki ng mihi ki a Manaia. Tihei Mauri ora. Ko ahau ng uri o ng tpuna i hainatia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ara ko wai au? Tuatahi ko ng uri o Waiariki, ko Kerepeti te Peke taku tpuna. Koia tn te kaikrero kia pupuri ai o ttou hitori, e pa ana ki te Waiariki. Kua mate ia i te tau, tahi mano, iwa rau, rua tekau ma rima. E tn tau, tahi mano, tekau ma rua n tau. Ka whakatakotohia tana krero ki a ttou ng uri. nei krero, e taka mai k mtua me k karanga mtua no te hap nei, Ngti Korora, Ngti Takapari. Ko te Waiariki Whnui. Ko te timatanga o to ttou matauranga, i timata mai i te mhiotanga o Te Whakaputanga me te Tiriti o Waitangi. Penei ng krero a ng tpuna. Ko te tuatahi, ko Hohepa Mahanga, he uri no Waiariki, he noho mai nei o roto o Pataua. Me Paratene te Manu, he tpuna no Ngti Takapari, ng uri n Rangitkiwaho. Ko rtou kua haere ki Ingarangi, a te tau tahi mano, waru rau, kore rima. Taua w ko rtou ka haere ki te Ingarangi, me ta rtou hoa Pkeh, he awhi atu i a rtou ki tera wahi, ki te kiteatia te ao mrama, e pa ana ki te taha o te Pkeh. E te hokinga mai, ka hoki mai rtou ng whakaaro o rtou ma, he krero ki a ttou te hau kainga, to rtou whakaaro, porangi k ng Mori, kei hea rtou e haerenga? Ara, kua whakawhnui mai ng krero o rtou ma me pehea te haerenga ki Ingarangi? Penei n. Trans 40 Firstly, acknowledgements to the creator. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, praise be the name of the Lord. Acknowledgements to our ancestral house and the marae outside. I would like to acknowledge the home people in sustaining us and feeding us in this very positive Hui, and would like to acknowledge the speakers who have laid forth the histories. 45 Trans To the people here, this is the appropriate time to return to the question who are we? In the beginning of the world was Io the parentless one and 80

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then emanated the Mori deities and then came forth Tiki, and then unto Mui and the commencement of the Waiariki hap. The three waka Waiariki are firstly Te Uro Ao, secondly Tamarere Ti and the third waka was Te Rapahoe. These waka are the waka furnished with feathers and the kinship ties of the people in Ngunguru are still strong and the kinship links to Ngti Manawa and to we, the people, the descendents of Te Rangitauwawao. So Manaia acknowledges Whakatere and acknowledges Moehau and responding from Moehau to Manaia and greetings all around. 10 I am a descendent of the ancestors who signed the Treaty of Waitangi. Who am I? From the Waiariki end I am the descendent of Kerepeti Te Peke. He was a constant reminder to hold onto our histories of Te Waiariki. He passed away in 1925. His age was 112 on his death. He said to his descendents before passing these words that were given by elders and down to me Ngti Korora and Ngti Taka Pari and the greater Ngti Waiariki. The commencement of knowledge commenced with He Whakaputanga and the Triti of Waitangi and the elders would say firstly Hohepa Mahanga was a descendent of Waiariki staying at Pataua and Paratene Te Manu, an ancestor of Ngti Taka Pari, descendents of Rangitukiwaho. They went to England in 1805. They went to England with their Pkeh friend who assisted them in England to see the world and to see the Pkeh world. On their return and they brought back their views and the views of the people of the countries that they had seen, and they spoke of these things that they had seen on their travels. And so they spoke of their experiences in England. MK 30 Our tpuna went to England. Whilst there they saw many things happening, but the worst of all they saw was a Negro chained in manacles and they asked one of their ambassadors why is that man chained so? Oh, he said, Because we can. That was his answer, because he could. And from that very thought I guess (and this is my guess) they wanted that protection. They needed to see the world before they knew what sort of protection we needed. Pkeh had been there since 1769. Many of us will testify to that. And in there, living amongst us, we were some of the first people that they lived with. 40 And whilst living amongst us they discovered that we were people of principles. There existed amongst us an order; the order was called tkanga me na kawa of our haps. We were paramount at that time. Marsden came to our area and he had church there. He had services in two places, one at Pataua on the beach and the other one in a place called Kowharewa or Church Bay today. And although they had service 81

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and they welcomed their visitors they would not let them build a church. In all our area you will never see a little, white church. And I emphasise that because of the influences that the church had put on other hap. 5 Our people were watching they were watching the way that our other hap integrated and interacted with the Crown. Every time a little church came up there become some parishioners and all these parishioners belonged to the parish, and so our tpuna did not want that. And that is evident in that our tpuna held to our tohungatanga and the last of those tpuna that done that the last of our kaumatua was Ngarono Mahanga. Ngarono practised the old ways. Not only did he practice his tohungatanga, he also opened many whare here in the north. Many wharenui like this at Waitangi, at Otiria and others. He was born in the 1800s, died in the early 1970s. His practices were all put down in our area, he was known as the tohunga for our people and although he did not stand here today and tell you this, none of us practice that because it was not given to all of us, it was given to some. And unfortunately the wars have collared them away and some of them never returned and neither did the krero. But we still held to what they had put down. There are no churches in our area. It might be there is one because we had let the pakipakis in as of late, and we do not fear them we do not fear them. So for us, we will stay as we are. Why I mentioned the church is because its influences run deep into all the matters of administrating and for us they were always the back door to the Crown, so waiho tn. They were always the back door to the Crown because the front door was coming through a government, and it is still that way today. We have been here for such a long time. As stated in the beginning, when we first came here this place was called Te tiriti o te Moana. 30 Trans MK The edge of the ocean. We came here to fetch greenstone from Hawaiki, our name has not changed since then. We have held to that name since the time of that trade. I say trade, we have been trading in greenstone and you can find these greenstones throughout the islands of Polynesia. And you can find our history just about at every pit stop there is on the way Rarotonga, Haiatea the lot. Therefore I say the only thing missing here is our whanaungatanga. And looking on the bigger scale someone might ask where are you from? I will just explain the ancientness so that we could tell him, well, we did not begin here. And we have always come to and fro up until the time of Kupe. He is the last to come out of Hawaiki. After him, no more. So we could not return after him, there was no place to return to.

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So our traditions have been kept here. Our culture has been kept here. We have come through the scene of Aotearoa and now I believe we are here in Niu Treni. JC 5 MK JC Mr Paraone-Kawiti, I have just had a call that the kitchen is ready for afternoon tea so if we just have a pause there and resume your krero after afternoon tea. Kia ora. Ka pai. So we will break until 3.30.

Afternoon Adjournment 10

WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 3 [3.21 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 4 STARTS
Hearing Resumes MITAI PARAONE-KAWITI CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF MK

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I mua i te karanga ki te pakanga o te Ikaranganui, a mtou tpuna kia puare te tatau o te whare tapu o Ngapuhi m te haerenga ki te Ikaranganui. Ka tau te ope taua o Ngapuhi ki ng awa e wha o to ttou takiw. Ko Ngunguru te awa, ko Horahora te awa, ko Pataua te awa, ko Tauharuru te awa. Ko Waitanga te awa iputa mai te awa o Whangarei Tere ng [INDISTINCT]. Ko ng mahi a ng tpuna ki ng awa tuatahi ko Ngunguru, ka kawea mai ng kena, ng p mai i te awa o Ngunguru tae ki Ruapekapeka. i te ara tpuna mai, ka haere tonu ai ki a Kiripaka, ki a Kopuatoetoe, ki a Tauae, ka tau ki Ruapekapeka. Ko te awa Horahora, te ingoa tuturu o te awa e horahora ng whenua o a mtou tpuna. There they laid the bones out of our tupunas at Te Ikaranganui. Te mahi o ng tpuna, whakahoki ng whehua ki r hap kua tau mai ki te pakanga i te Ikaranganui. Before the battle of Te Ika Ranginui and our ancestors wanted to open the door of the house of Ng Puhi before going to the battle of Te Ika Ranginui. The Ngpuhi army settled on the four rivers in the district, Ngunguru River, Horahora River, Pataua River and Taiharuru River. Waitanga is the river that goes unto Whangrei Teringa Poraoa. The ancestors in their journeys on the river, firstly the Ngunguru River. The cannons and the guns were brought from the Ngunguru River all the way to Ruapekapeka, all the way to Kiripaka to Kopuatoetoe to Towai and then unto Ruapekapeka. Horohoro River, the proper name for that river, the river where the ancestors bones were washed. The ancestors would take the remains to the other hap to show the other hap who had come to the battle of Te Ika Ranginui.

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This mahi the ancestors used to do, carrying bones to different areas was a very important mahi. It returned the fallen to their respective hap 83

areas. And our tpunas were doing that right up until Ngaro Noa, he was the last. And in our area at Horahora the bones are still there and they reside in the sand dunes, along the beach fronts of our area, theyre still there today, those who have not been returned. 5 So today is a good time for us to know that many of the bones of our ancestors of Ng Puhi nui tonu, that took part in those battles still reside in our takiw. Hence, our people were known as tohunga hap. There were many ringa kaha in the area, but there were very many tohunga that hahu tppaku and do all those sort of things, and our tpunas were the last. Why I mention these things is because those pakanga brought us together, when we talk about Ng Puhi nui tonu, for us, that was a karanga to battle. He karanga mo tu pakanga, of which our hap joined the rest with all of you and all of us that went down there to even the score for our utu, and we wont run into that because we could be here all night. So in relation to that, the only people we ever feared was ourselves and after I have explained my tpunas went to England, the first Mori to go there, after seeing that, they came back with thoughts in their minds on how they might get protection for our people who were still in a pristine state living in their kingas. After being out there in that big world they came back and, rightfully so everybody thought, Oh, ow, he porangi koutou... Trans MK 25 You guys are crazy. ...things you are talking about the way like fairies, patu pairehe, turehu, you may as well talk about that, because that was the same as if you listened to things for the first time. But when they brought taonga back that could not be explained, axes, tomahawks, a plough, cultivation tools, they had never seen these things before. So we took a turn in terms of making, if you would put it, armour to put on our people. The armour came in the way of He Whakaputanga o te rangatiratanga o Niu Treni. When King George gave that flag to Hhepa Mahanga, Paratene Te Manu and their rp, it was given so that they could trade and go into every port under the red cross of the Crown. Although that was in 1835 and there seems to be a lot of years in between, I believe that to spread the word and to get it out there to all of our hapu so that we had a platform to stand on, this is what their intention was. It is clear to us that we needed protection from the big world outside. When you think of the might of the royal navy in those days and if you had seen the power of the cannon and the pull, before Hone and them went and picked it up, they knew, and once you know you cannot un-know. So there we set about to put in all the protection. People came from all over the place. They came to Pataua to listen to some stories of the people that went over there to England. They had seen where the whalers came from; they had seen where all these people had come from. They saw their land and before we had the whakaputanga we had several attempts to go out there and meet them all and some of the 69 84

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countries that our tupuna actually travelled to, along with Ruatara and others, they sent not just any ordinary group, they sent people that could wananga that could understand and could bring the knowledge back and because we were mainly oral speaking people, we did not have a written language, they had to go and wnanga everything they saw. Understanding that if you go through our tikanga, our style of doing that, then it is easier to wananga than it is to write with a pen. Their kupu, they spoke today, they spoke yesterday as the same as today. I will recite part of one of my ancestors when we get up that far because his kupu is tika for today. I now wish to talk about the Hokio Te Kara. Why? Because on the way to that standing up, our people had tried to go overseas and went to some places in the world and the first original flag they flew had the hokio on it. Te Hokio was a giant eagle that used to live here in Niu Treni in Aotearoa. That same hokio would have brought Reipai and Reitu up to Te Whanga o Whangrei. So these eagles have been there. They took that as a sacred bird, a manu of status, and they went to Spain. I am not too sure where. I think it was Madrid, but Spain anyway. On arrival they got plundered, they got pirated, they got smashed over. He was lucky to get away with his life. He had to jump on a boat and hitchhike back to England where he, once again, came before the King. He said to the King You said I could go to all these places, but when I got there they saw my flag and then they patud them. But the King said Oh well, sorry there Mori boy. Here, take this flag and when you are in trouble or you need us, just wave it like this. It is called a claim of protest. Put that up and we will come to your aid. So they embarked on this one, bringing this flag here, knowing that we could now go into these places. It was important for our trading. We had been trading, like I said, since the time of greenstone. This is no different, other than different people to trade with. I believe that Te Kara holds the answer for everything we are doing here. I believe the King gave us that to protect us, to put the armour on our people, to keep us safe. I believe he gave that to us also whilst we were an infant nation. This is important to us because infant nations need protection from mature nations. Hence I say that now we are a mature nation. Why? Because we know who we are and knowing who we are we have become mature. I would put it another way, that the Crown has treated us like an abuser; he has abused his privileges and his rights with us. He is like whwh tamariki. He looks like that because he wont let us grow up and be a mature nation, take things into our own hands and run things properly under the tikanga and the kawa of our hap. We are very capable today, although we lack the resources. But, to me, the answer lies in Te Kara. So I hope you will take that on board and that I hope it is recognised and before today before these are over I wish to hear that it is recognised by the Crown because this is our problem. There are three flags I have seen lately, the tino rangatiratanga flag, the Whakaputanga and the 85

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assumed Crown right, the New Zealand flag. I say the assumed Crown right. It appears they assume that we have conceded somewhere along the line and I have just mentioned we would never concede those things, not even today. 5 I wish now to turn to the krero nku tpuna te tao o Ngti Hine ko Te Ruki Kawiti, and I wish to recite that and explain it as we know it in Te Waiariki. E te whanau i pakanga ahau ki ng atu o te p, khai heoi i mate. Takahi te riri ki raro o koutou waewae, kia ki t whakapono, he phae Pkeh koutou e tahuri atu ai. Ar, taihoa, kia kakati te namunamu i te wharangi i te pepa, kia ki o papa pounamu n o mtou tpuna. Titiro ki te taumata o te moana, hei oranga m ng uri whakatupu. Now translation. Ka tata a Kawiti ki te mate, he became very ill, and just before he died at a place called Puketoto, kei waenganui i a ttou Te Waiariki. Trans Oh family, I fought with the deities of the darkness, I did not die. Trample the anger beneath your feet. Hold fast to what you believe in. Wait, do not until the flea closes the pages of the book, hold fast to the things of your ancestors, gaze upon the horizon of the oceans as benefits for the generations yet born. On his death, nearing his death, Kawitis death... He became very ill and just before he died at a place called Pukepoto, kia waengia a ttou te Waiariki... In the Waiariki area. ...he came there to die because there were no little white churches in our area. He had mistrust in some of the Christians, not all of them but in some of them. Enough for him to say I do not wish to lie in those areas where these churches preside and hence he came this way. Takahi te riri ki raro i koutou waewae, trampled anger, the anger of what they do to your people, the anger of what they to do us down through the ages, right to today. Trample the anger beneath our feet. It is time to use this, because they have already been there, they fought the fight, the fight has been well fought and they won. And therefore, Ariki was correct. Ki au ki t whakapono, hold to that truth which is yours, ours, mai ttou te iwi Mori, hold to our truth. What is that? Our tikanga, our kawa. Hold onto it, dont let it go. Not like the land. Hold onto it. 35 He pohai Pkeh koutou e tahuri tu ai, you will learn the way of the Pkeh, youll assume his ways, you will become just like him and there you will wait, wait for what? Kia kaka ki te namunamu i te wharangi o te pepa, we will wait until the sand flies bite and nip at the pages of Te Triti o Waitangi, as we are doing right now all over this country. We are like namunamu. He aha te hua o te namunamu? Aue, Aussie haka. So we are waiting there. Ki au ki ng papa pounamu o matua tpuna, were waiting there and holding to the words of our tpunas and to that written in blood and stone, he papa pounamu. What did that mean? It means dont make our own Treaty, our own, dont make any of those, its 86

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already been done - hold to it, everyone, hold to what they said. Lets not make our own Treaty, lets not make our own settlement, lets hold to what they had in place. 5 And the two documents they had in place, He Whakaputanga o te rangatiratanga o Niu Treni me Te Triti o Waitangi 1840 is the overall protection of taonga and that being our taonga, it needs protecting once again. It was protected in the beginning by us, panga ringa kaha. It was protected by our kawa, therefore who came and took it away? Who took our kawa away from us? Who has the right? Talking of rights, now we come down to that claim of right. something we have yet to exercise, but it is coming. That is

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Titiro ki te taumata te moana hei oranga mo ng uri whakatupu, look to those who transfigured the sea, the taumata, the people that made the call on the international scene, the moana and all that. Who are they? They are people who wish to if its the United Nations, so be it. Or if not, who is it? Is it the united people of the earth or Papa-t--nuku or right around there? I am not sure either, but I am sure of one thing, we know who we are. We know who we are, I just cant explain who you are, who the Crown is. Every time we tried to put the finger on it and try to move into that, it seems to move, like everything around it, goal posts move. For once, if they can stay still, like us, sit in front of us and korero. I know I will probably get a better audience from young Prince William. He seems to be more intact with the way things are in this world. I am sure he came over here to tautoko the Supreme Court standing up, but then I do not think he could vote confidence in it. All those things are important. It has come to the time where now we are asking you again who is the Crown? Where do we sit and why are we listening to everyone? We should be actually looking at ourselves because we have the answers within ourselves.

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So I have come to the end of what I have to say. I just had to deliver the message. But on delivering a message I also have papers that I wish to table with the Tribunal, and it is a path forward for our hap. It is a path forward that other hap around the motu have also taken their stance and we stand on our tino rangatiratanga, our mana motuhake and no one will ever shift our position, not today and not tomorrow, not ever. Tn koe., Mr Paraone-Kawiti, can I just ask, because you refer to some papers, can I just ask your counsel, Mr Kahukiwa - - Sir. The brief that has been filed, is this to be taken as read or is this the krero that he has given, is that in addition or does it take over what has already been filed? Just by way of clarification, sir, my instructions are that the oral presentation is in addition to the written brief. But, as your Honour would have understood, Mitai actually spoke to the written brief that was filed in 87

advance; there were some elaborations on certain points. But to ensure that his evidence is received in the way that he intends it to be, in addition. JC 5 MK Trans JC RW 10 Trans Tn koe, thank you. He ptai? Oh, ka mutu tku krero ko tnei w, he ptai koutou, he ptai ki au. I conclude my evidence. If you have any questions, please ask. Does the Crown have questions? Ms Carey? Heoi an taku ki a koe e Mtai, me te mihi atu ki a koe ki te whakatakoto i ng krero a o ttou tpuna i roto i te reo Pkeh, i roto i ng pukapuka nei, tuarua, nui k atu i roto i ng tikanga o te ao Mori, me krero waha, n reira kei te mihi atu ki a koe m tn huatanga. Kia ora. Thank you very much, Mitai, for your evidence and the stories of our ancestors in English. And secondly, your delivery in te reo Mori was of far more importance. Thank you very much.

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NG MTEATEA MK TA no reira ttou, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora huihui mai ttou. Tn koe e te Judge, tn koe e Mtai, e te Waiariki a Ngti Korora, Ngti Taka, kia kaha mai. Your honour the next witness is Waimarie Bruce, her document is C24, tn pea kei te haere mai te kaikrero m Ngti Kahu o Torangare te Parawhau kia whakatakoto ai ng krero e pa ana ki a WAI 619. Tn koe We have the spokesperson for Parawhau Tongorare to deliver evidence pertaining to Wai 169. Kia ora koutou. Tuatahi me mihi atu ki to mtou mtua o te rangi, nana nei i te timatanga me te whakaotinga o ng mea katoa. Mihi ki te whare, te whare e t nei, te papa i waho, ng tpuna, te Taraipiunara, e huri ki a koutou ng tini whanaunga o Ngapuhi nui tonu, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou katoa. Greetings. Firstly, observations to the lord, the creator of all things, and acknowledgments to the house, the marae outside, the ancestors, the members of the Tribunal and to the many kin here present of Ngpuhi nui tonu.

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Waimarie Bruce reads to her Brief [3.57 pm]


TA 35 Tn koe, Waimarie. Aroha mai, he ptai kei a koe te Karauna me te rp whakamana.

Helen Carrad questions Waimarie Bruce [4.37 pm]


HC Kia ora. I just had one question that you might be able to help me with. Paragraphs 20 to 22 you talk about the meeting places near Whangrei for some of the chiefs of Te Whakaminenga and I just wondered whether 88

you could whether you knew what you talk about them making decisions at those places. Do you have any krero about some of the decisions that they made or, is it just more general? WB 5 I think in terms of the Whakaminenga, like Pukepoto, if we go to where Kawiti is, there was a bounty on his head, there was a bounty on his children. What I am saying is that he was a hunted person and it is obvious the discussions would have to be survival. Survival of himself, and the survival of his uri, and survival of his people as a whole. The whauwhau, I might not be pronouncing it right, but the place you mention in paragraph 21. Yes, I think whauwhau is all about trade, because our tpuna, Tipene Haari is well documented, they could not believe that they could load up a boat so quickly in one day. I mean, not a boat, a ship. They were amazed, they did not see anything like it that a person like Tipene Haari who was a tohunga of Ngti Kahu and also the same tohunga who took Kawiti back to Waiomio and their discussion was trade. Kia ora, thank you very much. Heoi an Waimarie, karekau he ptai ngari kei te mihi atu ki a koe m ng krero tuku iho e koa ana mtou ki te whakarongo i au krero. N reira tn koe. I do not have any questions, but thank you very much for your evidence, traditional evidence. We are very happy to listen to your histories, thank you. Kia ora koutou.

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NG MTEATEA WB ?? Na reira, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou katoa. Anei tnei e mihi atu ki a koe e te Karauna, ko mtou no te Parawhau o Tirarau o Taurou o mtou ng kaikrero m n rangatira i hainatia ng Kawenata e rua, mahia anake ko koutou te haere i tera taha, pai noa. Ko tnei e ttou ka mhio wetehi ana, kua mhio ana n wai i pira hoki ng raiti, e Rangi, tukuna mai tnei wahanga ki a te uri o rtou ma, kia hoki mai apopo kia te timata e hoki tnei, e ttou ma, n reira ka mihi atu ki a koutou. Kore e taea mtou te 5 minutes te krero ng krero e pa ana ki wena tpuna tapu, n reira, koia tn ka inoi atu ki a koutou e te Karauna kia tuku mai, kia hoki mai apopo, ka hoki mai an ki roto o Tangiteroria, kei raro hoki te ngahere, kei roto te Kohora e hia ng haora e wiki te tae mai ki knei ki roto i ng whanaungatanga o roto o Hokianga, n reira, mehemea kua tuku mai e mtou kia haere mai apopo kore taea te 5 minutes m te krero m a ttou tpuna. Thank you very much, the Crown. We of Te Parawhau, the descendants of Tirarau, of Taurau, we are the speakers who represent those chiefs who signed the two covenants. I know that you wish to go across to the other side and we know why the lights were playing up today, but you 89

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have afforded the time for us to commence our krero, but we will be back tomorrow to recommence our part in the proceedings. We cannot encapsulate within five minutes the histories and the stories of our rangatira. So, Crown, we ask that we return back tomorrow. We are going to Tangiteroria and we are going to the plains, many hours travel, journey to get here. But we request that we be allowed to come back tomorrow. We cannot acquit. JC Whakakaae ana mtou, kua tata ki te rima karaka, n reira, ka tukuna atu ki te taumata kia whakakapi to ttou r. We agree. We ask the taumata to close our day. Judge, taihoa. Kati r e ttou ma, heoi an e te Judgie, ttou e te Parawhau, tn koutou. Tika tonu tn, he kore e taea te whakatakoto o te kaupapa nui o te Parawhau i roto i te taima e toe ana i tnei ahiahi p, n reira kia ta krerongia nei krero a te ata apopo. N reira tn koutou, tn koe e Tihi, e Tpari, e Patty tn koutou. Thank you very much, Paddy. [INDISTINCT] o te kotiro nei, a Waimarie me to ttou whanaunga ki roto o Waiariki, n kua tae mai mtou mai te roto o Whangarei Terenga Para i tautoko i a rtou. He iwi kotahi ttou. We have come from Whangrei, Te Ringaparao to support our girl and the previous speaker from Waiariki. We are one people. Ko ttou tn. N reira, he panui kei knei. Notice - - Kia ora mai r ttou e Ngapuhi nui tonu, haramai koutou ki a Ngti Rehia kua mate mai tk tuahine kua hoki mtou. N reira, kia pai te haere e te Karauna kia kaha tonu ttou ki te tonu ttou i Ngapuhi, n reira, tukuna mai ahau a Kuia me wtea pea ki te hoki ki te kinga. Ma reira pea te huarahi ma ttou i kawe mai i knei. Kia ora ana ttou. Ngti Rehia returns to their home. My sister has passed away. We hope that the proceedings go along smoothly, be strong Ngpuhi in delivering your evidence, so please let us, allow us to return home. Thank you very much. Kia ora e Waitai. Ehara i te mea, kei a au ng mihi, ngari me mihi atu ki a koe kia Nora, ki a koutou o Ngti Rehia. Ko ttou tn. N reira, me waihongia atu ki te taumata, ma rtou ng mihi ki a koutou i mua i tn, heoi an, he whi pnui. Thank you, Waitai. We mourn your losses and we handover to te taumata to say the appropriate words.

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Kia ora ttou e te whanau kua tae mai te w nei te kapi o mtou nei huihuinga o te r, apopo ka timata an i runga i te ngakau marire, n reira he inoi hei tiaki ana i a koutou e hoki ana ki o koutou kainga kia tae, kia ora ai o koutou kainga. To mtou nei e noho nei i roto i o mtou marae maha i knei, te rangimrie ki a ttou katoa, n reira au i te toroa ng mihi roa ana te po ki te hoki atu, ki te hoki mai, n reira te whanau, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou katoa. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. It is time to close our proceedings for the day. Tomorrow we will commence again in peace and in amity and so let us have a prayer to close our Hui as people return to their respective homes. To those who are staying overnight at our marae, peace be unto you. We will not tarry so that you can return to your homes. Greetings. Ka tukua nei ng karakia m to mtou nei kaimahi o mtou nei a Bob, n reira Bob, ki a koe ng kare e t mai. Kia ora Bob. We handover now to Bob to close with the appropriate karakia. Thank you, Bob. Tn r ttou katoa, i tnei ahiahi, ka krero ttou e noho ana mihi tonu ki a ttou i runga i ng whakaaro m to ttou mahi tahi ka ai ttou ki to ttou waka ka tika ai ng mea katoa. N reira ka mihi tonu ki a koutou e te Taraipiunara e te Karauna, ka mihi tonu ki a koutou ka tonu o ttou waka, mai i ng wiki kua phure i tnei r, poungia a tnei wiki, a hoki mai ana ttou te w. N reira, i mua i te timatanga o to ttou hui me penei taku krero o ng kaikrero o tnei r. Te kaikrero nei kua krero mai i te hhi o te mihinare o tnei r, n reira ki a koutou, ka tukuna atu te inoi i roto i te Hhi o te Mihinare. Mena he waiata a ttou, to ttou kuia ng waiata e waiata m ttou. M te Maria te mea poto.

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Good afternoon everyone. I would like to add my commendations to the people today for our efforts and if we work in unity we will achieve our tasks. So our commendations to the Tribunal and to the Crown who are maintaining consistency with the themes of the day and the week. So we will be returning tomorrow. So before I start our prayer, I just want to say something to the person who assailed the Christian faiths, of the Anglican faiths, so we will send an Anglican prayer today. If we have a hymn. We ask the ladies to commence a hymn for us.

KARAKIA Trans 40 Through the grace of god may we be protected and may he also implant permanently within us his boundless love and cleave our hearts unto the good. Through the Lord and through his ever loving son and also through the actions of the Holy Spirit and may all of them work to infuse us with the love of the Lord. So all of us may be protected under his almighty shelter. Amen.

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Oh lord, our thoughts are now turned to home, so oh lord, you have been amongst us and you have been a constant companion for all of us, showing the light and the way to our thoughts and so tomorrow we ask that you come amongst us again, and so to all of us in the name of our father, Jesus Christ, Amen. May the blessings of Jesus Christ and the love of the Lord and the Holy Spirit be amongst us now and forever, Amen; Kia ora. Evening Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 2 SESSION 4 [4.55 PM] FINISHES


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WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 1 STARTS


Hearing Resumes PT Trans I mea atu ahau inianei nei e kiikii ana te w, ngari kia kaua tnei e penei i te whki tere mahi htiti. We have a tight schedule but let us not be like a sausage making factory. Thats what we dont want. So our speaker is ready. I just do not want to because we are actually starting a little bit early, I hope you not expecting any whnau or - - Kei te pai. Kia ora. Look, there are a number of pnui, but I would prefer to leave it until before morning tea when there are more people here who can hear the pnui, Judge. So I think we are okay to get straight into it. Kia ora ttou. Ms Tuwhare, kei a koe. I think the pnui that Pita is referring to are about how we are going to look to make up time today and we will leave that for after the first witness so that more people can hear what we are planning. But indications are that we will look to have a shorter morning tea, shorter lunch in order to make up time. Tn koe, sir. Ata mrie kia koutou, ng mma o te Taraipiunara, kia ttou katoa i roto i te whare nei. Good morning to the members of the Tribunal and to everyone present in our house Our first speaker, sir, is Mereana Robinson - just a couple of matters before she gets started. The first is that we have handed up a hard copy of the Powerpoint presentation that will be playing while she speaks, so the Tribunal members have that in front of you. The other matter, sir, is there is some recent video footage that has been taken of Hana Murray, who is the 84 year old last surviving original claimant to the Wai 262 claim. That is raw footage at the moment, sir, and we seek your Honours leave to file the edited version of that at some stage later. Thank you, sir.

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Tn koutou te minenga o ng tpuna o te Kotahitanga o ng hap o Ngapuhi nui tonu. I noho mai nei a koutou i runga i to koutou taumata, nei, hei maumahar m tnei ao hurihuri, kia whakarongo mai te Karauna ki ng take i hua ai e koutou i r w, tae noa ki tnei r. Tn koutou e te Karauna. Tn koutou e te Taraipiunara. Greetings to everyone, to the unity of the hapu of Ngpuhi nui tonu who are here in your stance and may the Crown listen keenly to the matters that were of concern to you in your day unto this day. Greetings to the Crown and greetings to the Tribunal. Today you are here representing the Crown for my tpuna representing the Crown. In my tpunas day the governor himself was standing in person. Although we are all mokapuna of our ancestors, we as kaikrero and our pou krero i te wiki tuatahi, are just as equal to our tpuna, for next time we would like to see the governor here. I have been listening since day one and I have been hearing this thing about time, aroha mai. My Mori people have been waiting for 165 years for this week to happen and today we are still controlled by Crown timetable. I hope the next round is not time controlled, e tiati. Ka tmata i tku krero.

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I commence my evidence now.

Mereana Robinson reads to her Brief [8.51 am]


JC AI 25 Trans KT Mr Irwin? Karekau he ptai mahau e te whaea, ngari te mihi atu ki a koe te whawhai roa m t kereme WAI262 n reira tnei te mihi. Kia ora I do not have questions of you, maam. Thank you very much, who have fought the long fight for Wai 262, thank you very much. Tn koe, kei te taumaha taku ngakau, kei te hoki ng whakaaro ki ng tau e mahi ana e thau a Dell. N reira ko te tangi atu tnei ki a koutou. He tino wahine tera wahine, e kore e wareware, n reira tn koutou My heart is heavy as my memories flood back to the time I worked with Del and so I extend my love to you, she was a true woman, she will never be forgotten. Thank you very much.

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Kihi Ngaitai questions Mariana Robinson [9.25 am]


KT 35 Trans MR 40 Tn koe e te tuahine, anei te krero mate atu hei toa haere mai he toa, ko koe tn. Kia kaha. Tn koe e te whaea, he ptai ki a koe. N wai i tuku te tupu kumara ki Japan? When a warrior passes away, a warrior takes her place, and that is you. I have a question. Who sent the tubers, kumara tubers to Japan? I kohikohi i ttahi o ng Scientists i r w. Ka marua ki Japan ng cultivast kia ora ai ng kumara

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One of the scientists back in the day gathered up all the tubers and took them to Japan so that they would survive. A tn koe, a tn ttou. Tn koe m nei krero. Kua rongo mtou i te mamae e pa ana ki tnei kereme, e pa ana ki tera kereme o te WAI 262. Thank you for this evidence. We hear the pain pertaining to this claim and to the claim Wai 262. It is certainly our plan to ensure that the report following these initial hearings will not take as long as Wai 262. I hope not. We will see. Well put a few dollars on that one, eh? Engari, ka nui te mihi atu kia koe me t whnau, me t whnau e whakamarama mai nei ng krero, tn koe ... Thank you very much, you and your family, who have presented these words. ... and also thank you for the focus of your krero and nanako, tn koe. Tn koe, e tiati. Just while we are waiting for the transition between witnesses, just to let everybody know we are looking to make up some time. It is certainly our desire to ensure that we can hear everybody who is on the timetable, okay, and that is the plan. I said on the first day that it was going to be a challenge and it was going to be quite difficult, but with the co-operation of counsel and claimants and the working of the Tribunal, it is certainly our plan to ensure everyone has the opportunity to have their krero. In the first two days people did tend to go over time and what that has caused is that other people have less time. We do not want that situation so we ask that each person who gives their evidence is considerate to the people that follow them, and considerate in ensuring that their krero is within the timeframes that we have been given. So we ask for your cooperation with that so that the krero can be focused and can be within the timeframes. On our part, this morning we have started earlier, tomorrow morning we will look to start earlier. The morning tea breaks we will shorten, the lunchtime break we will shorten and the afternoon tea break we will also shorten. It hopefully wont cause too many problems and issues for the kitchen, but if everyone can work together, like I say, so that we can ensure that everybody gets to present their korero to the Tribunal. So we ask each witness to be considerate towards the witnesses that are following them and therefore stick to their time. We have had one person get a gold star, Eddie Manataniora, who was within time and the first kaikrero this morning; she was also within the time that was allocated to her. So mihi atu ki aia e te whaea. I will hand it over to you, Mr Afeaki. 94

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Tn koe e te kaiwhakahaere e te tepu, e te Karauna, e aku hoa, huri noa ki a koutou ng karangaranga maha o Ngapuhi nui tonu tn koutou. Your honor the next witness is Hera Epiha, he uri an n Ngti Kura, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Kahu ki Whangaroa i haere mai rtou te ope nei o te Kohanga Reo o Matauri kei te whakaeke mai nei inianei. Greetings. Thank you for that, Judge, and members of the Tribunal, the legal counsel for the Crown and for the people of Ngpuhi. A descendant of Ngti Kura, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Kahu of Whangaroa has come. The khanga reo of Matauri who are coming on now. They made a big journey this morning and I would like to welcome the kohanga and the whnau and I am going to hand it over to learned counsel, Mr Hutton, who is also from Whangaroa. Just before you start, Mr Hutton, we have the brief and it is going to be quite a mission to get through this in time. Are you confident that that will happen within the 40 minutes that has been allocated? Sir, Ms Epiha has indicated that she would like the brief of evidence taken as read. Okay. She has other things that she would like to do, but I am going to leave that up to her to explain. Tn koe. Good morning, sir. My name is Hutton; I am counsel for Ms Epiha. Sir, I am just going to hand it straight over to her to start.

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NG WAIATA 25 HE Tn koe Papatuanuku, tn koe e Matauri, tn koe Hokianga Whakapau Karakia. Tn koe Panguru, tn koe Waipuna, tn r koutou, tn r mtou, tn r ttou katoa. Good morning Waitangi Tribunal, I, we, Here Epiha, Ngti Kura, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Kahu ki Whangaroa Greetings to the land, greetings Matauri, greetings to Hokianga that expends karakia, greetings Panguru, greetings the marae of Waipuna. Good morning Waitangi Tribunal. I, we, Hera Epiha, Ngti Kura, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Kahu ki Whangaroa, are here today to speak to the brief of evidence. We spoke in song. What you have heard is the essence of our brief of evidence. To that, we have nothing further to say. We are open to questions. Tn koe. Tn koe, i a koutou e waiata ana i ng waiata ataahua, panui i te pepa i whrikihia mai nei, ataahua hoki ng krero o roto r. N reira, tnei te mihi atu ki a koe karekau he ptai mhau. Kia ora. 95

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As you sang your beautiful songs, I read the submission and how beautiful the words are within. Thank you very much, I do not have any questions.

Ranginui Walker questions Hera Epiha [9.46 am]


5 RW Tn koe, Hera. At page 12 you talk about incorporation of your land and that is a Pkeh construct. It cuts across which way does it cut across the way that you want to look at and use the land? I am sorry, I did not quite could you - - I understand that there is incorporation, you talk about a land incorporation as being a Pkeh construct, Pkeh kaupapa and by talking about it like that, are you objecting to the way a Pkeh kaupapa is imposed on you over the land? I am objecting. And what is the basis of your whakah? I would just like to say that is a big question and if I want to answer it properly I would have to give more thought to that particular question. I am happy to answer it in its fullest and I do believe it deserves more thought from my part to deliver the just answer. Kua tae mai [Indistinct] whnau - - Taihoa, lets just let Hera answer the question. Haere tonu, Hera. Are you asking to be able to file that answer in writing? I am. That deserves more thought, yes. Kre he ptai, ngari, tautoko ana ng krero he ataahua ng waiata. He ataahua ng waiata. He ataahua ng kupu, , he ataahua te whakarongo ki a koutou e waiata i ng waiata n reira tn koe, tn koutou e haramai nei ki te whakamrama mai i ng krero , kua rongo mtou i te mamae, kua rongo mtou i ng kupu, kua rongo mtou i ng krero nei, n reira tn koe, tn koutou. Tn r ttou katoa The beautiful songs, the beautiful words of the songs and tunefully sung and thank you and thank your team, your group who came to clarify the words that we have now heard, the pain within the words, so thank you and thank you all. Tn ra ttou katoa. I would ask one thing, Mr Hutton. We would ask that the words for those waiata, if you are able to, they be filed at some time with the Tribunal. Certainly, sir. Thank you.

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E ttou mea, ehara i te mea, e tautoko ake i te huatanga o n mihi, ahakoa e waiata ana to ttou whaea, haere tonu tera waiata, e Hema, e Hera, ng taitamariki, kore au e tuku ki a koutou ki te haere kia mihia r an ki t mtua, ko ahau te kaitautoko tn koutou.

HMENE He kororia hareruia, Ihoa o ng mano, ki te kahui Ariki wairua ko te mngai hei tautoko mai. Te Arepa, te Omeka tautokotia mai te roopu nei. Piriwiritua, Hamuera, ka puta ka ora e. Trans

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The Alpha and the Omega, may you support this effort. Piriwiritua, Hamuera, for benefit for all the people. Tn ttou. Thats another gold star for being on time, that one. Hopefully I will run out of gold stars by the rest of the day. e. Mr Duncan? Tn koutou. Your Honour, my clients have just told me they want to get a gold star as well, so ka pai. Your Honour, the two witnesses that are presenting evidence today are Mr Ken McAnergney and Mr Danny Watson on behalf of Waitaha, Wai 1940. As set out in my memorandum that I have filed with that evidence, we communicated to the Tribunal that Waitaha had intended to present more material, but that they had reduced their time to take into account the fact that this is a Ngpuhi nui tonu matter, therefore the scale and extent of the presentation has been reduced as a sign of absolute deference to Ngpuhi nui tonu, focusing on a couple of matters that connect the north with the south and the bottom of the south to the north of these islands that we call Aotearoa. In addition, some of the Waitaha words that are used in the briefs are extremely ancient and not in common use and also, your Honour, Mr McAnergney will have some small typographical errors in his brief that he wishes to correct when he is presenting his evidence. I will just hand now quickly over to Purahau Korako, who will just begin this in the usual manner with a karakia and introduction.

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WAIATA ? 35 Ae hoki ka nui r te mihi ki a koutou, i haere tawhiti mai kia tata, a ttou kia haere kia tata, kia kore ai ttou e tawhiti te haere. N reira ka nui taku mihi ki a koutou. E mhio ana au i timata mai koutou mai te Mane, tahuri atu ki tnei rangi i runga ake ng kaupapa a kui a koro m. N reira tnei mihi, me kii, e hoki ana au ki roto i ng krero o te whaea i tmata ake i ta ttou pukapuka tuatahi, ahakoa te wero o te tini o te mano, n tera kuikuia mtou i poipoia kia tae mai ki waenganui i to koutou aroaro. Ahau nei ttahi o ng mea i haere i mua i te aroaro o to koutou tuakana i roto i te Waipounamu, i reira ka rongo, ka tangi te ngakau i te mea ng whenua i raro i ng ringa kaha o roto o Ngapuhi i mau katoa i raro i te kereme o Ngai Tahu, o Ngti Mamoe, o Waitaha. N reira tnei te tangi 97

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atu ki a koutou, kia aroha mai ki nei tokorua. Kua aukati mtou te w ka pupuri ai ng krero karekau mtou i mau mai to mtou roopu waiata, kia pai ai te noho o a koutou nei karaka me kii. N reira taku mihi, taku tangi, taku whaea e Whina ko koe tn. Nau r i timata mai te huarahi kia puta mai an ta mtou hap o Waitaha kia nohotahi ai me ng krero o Waiariki. N reira mtou te hoki mai, mai te Waipounamu kia tuitui an ng krero kua warewarehia i raro i te taumahatanga a Pkeh. N reira taku tangi atu ki a koe, kua mutu mai o mtou mahi i roto i te Waipounamu, kua hoki o mokopuna, ahakoa he mokopuna koretake, he mokopuna. N reira ki a koutou e Pita, anei au ka kawe o tera i ng kaupapa o te Htiti, kia parai tonu ana i roto i a mtou, Tn koe. Warmest greetings to you all who have come from a distance and so that we may not be distant from each other. Warmest greetings to you all. I know that you commenced your hearings on Monday and today we are still carrying on, focusing on the matters, historical matters of this area. This greeting returns to the words of the elder who was instrumental in book one, despite the sweat and hard work, she encouraged us to make the effort to come here amongst you. I am one of the first witnesses who came before the Tribunal in the South Island and it was there that I wept for the land that was taken in Ngpuhi area and similar to our claims of Ngi Tahu and Ngti Mmoe, and so this is the lament. We have abbreviated our time; we did not bring our accompanying choir so that the clock is adhered to. So my acknowledgment to you and I farewell and lament to my inspiration, Whina, you set the path that brought my hap of Waitaha out of the darkness and that they make those links with the Waiariki, so we have returned from the South Island to link again the forgotten stories that had been suppressed by the laws of the time. So I weep to you. We have completed our works in the South Island, your grandchildren have returned to you, although we are useless grandchildren, we are still your kin and so, Pita, I carry on and the memories of Te Hotete are still with us, the kin. CD Now is the evidence of Mr McAnergney, document C13.

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Robert McAnergney speaks to his Brief [9.56 am]


35 ... me Ngi Tahu hoki. Tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou katoa. Tnei te tawai karere, whakaoho ku whakaaro, tauhi whakarere, tauhi whakaoho, taurima o to wai, e ng manu, e ng mana, e ng reo, e ng karangatanga maha. 40 Members of the Tribunal, friends, whnau, I bring you greetings from Te Punga o te waka o ng atua Rakiura (Stewart Island). I have here examples of the taonga, the trade articles of my of our ancestors, pounamu, in its raw found form, picked from the rivers of, what we now call South Island. I have a roughly mapped argillite adze, found at one of the old workstations, one of the manufacturing sites on the East Coast of the South Island, and I have the great prize the tt. JC Are you looking to file that as evidence? 98

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You may [Indistinct] trade. Tt nestled in their poha, rimu rapa, bull kelp with Kerri ttara bark in a harakeke flax kit. This was the prize from Rakiura from the south, that our ancestors in the north waited for. I was told by one of my old aunties that she used to wait for days for the bird train at Kaikohe, living under the dray and hearing the stories of the deep south. They had to be there when the bird train arrived so they could put their hand in and get their birds; otherwise some of their Ngpuhi cousins might borrow them. Kia ora. Whilst I intend to be brief and speak to my brief members of the Tribunal, there will be some numbered sections which I wish to emphasise and read in full. I am going to try to be brief. I have noted the main issues of the inquiry and in discussion with my elders have prepared a very limited and hopefully clear and concise brief of evidence. It is focussed on relationships, connections, contact between various hap, individuals in the Hokianga and the Bay of Islands and the lower South Island, including Rakiura. The main thrust of my evidence is summarised in paragraph 32, on page 10 and deals with the period leading up to the signing of He Whakaputanga. Given the complexities during the period in the lead up to the signing of Te Triti and the matter which our legal counsel mentioned about trying to keep our time down, were going to focus purely on He Whakaputanga because, of course, of the conflicting and differing opinions between historians and scholars. Waitaha doesnt wish to comment on this time by way of any oral histories. To my great distress and regret I do not speak te reo. My mum, in Invercargill insisted that my sister and I study for our future professional careers. I was born in Invercargill in 1940 ...

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ROBERT MCANERGNEY CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF ... and I have been engaged in that role since 1986. And departing from my notes, whilst I am passed my used by date, Im involved in a $240,000,000 dollar project which they wont let me retire until its completed.

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From very early on, I was told stories about my Mori ancestress on Stewart Island. From Invercargill on a good day we could see Hananui (Mt Angland), Rakiura. I was told that she had been sent away and had comeback with a Pkeh to build a ship at Port Pegasus. Now this fellow that she came back with was called Jackie Lee or John Lee, he went down to Stewart Island in the company of some people from up here in the Bay of Islands, including William Cook and his wife who was the sister of Tamati Waka Nene, and so there was a connection.

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On holidays we went to Stewart Island after the war when my dad came back and it was there that I heard about a book called Rakiura written by Basil Howard who, at that time, was the liaison officer at Otago University. The book generally confirmed all the family histories, including the boat building saga, the sale and purchase of an island by Jackie Lee for a safe haven, his involvement in bay whaling at Preservation Inlet and his involvement in the signing of a Treaty by Tuhawaiki in June 1840. There was also considerable mention of the southern progress by Bishop Selwyn who went down in 1844 with his big book and met all the European men and their Maori wives, christened them all, married them all and importantly, gave a lot of women names and he gave my ancestor the name of Sarah Timu. This was to cause me huge problems in 1990. I will come to that shortly. As a child I was fascinated with ships and boats. I was in the Sea Scouts, we went to Stewart Island frequently, we muddled around in boats and I became fascinated about this whole business of Sarah Timu being sent away. I was a great fossicker for Maori adzes and have an extensive Maori adze collection. I asked everybody that I met who had any knowledge of the early days on Rakiura how people were sent away. I spent time with the director of the Southland Museum at the time, a woman called Olga Sanson, who gave me some books to read and told me about the fact that mutton birds were not just for local consumption in the Bluff or at Makarewa freezing works or at Mataura freezing works where all the North Island people came down. No, they were exported, she said. They went up and down the island by waka. They went up the island, she said, with pounamu, with argillite, with basalt, with bowenite, with bowenite, with a great many different stones. I will refer you later to appendices which refer to those stones. This was fascinating to me and I started to wonder how I could get more information about this. Skipping through my notes, I will come down to about paragraph 11 where an old uncle of mine told me that we were not descended from the local Ngi Tahu people, we were descended from a much earlier group of people who were alive when the moa was alive, who were there when the moa was alive. Now, he had a connection with my grandfather, of course, who had been in the First World War and it was through then that we got this family saying that we were descended from the Syrian Jews of the South Pacific. This, of course, was because my grandfather had been in the Otago Mounted Rifles and had been in the Camel Corps and had been in the Middle East and had seen, he believed, many, many likenesses, including these long ears which I have. In the mid 1980s, skipping now to paragraph 14, I had been attending Canterbury University where I studied engineering and had become a traffic engineer and transportation planner. I got involved in the SILNA issue, and that is where I met one of the members of the Tribunal, Mr Richard Hill, who knows me from the old days. I was the person who filed Wai 158, the SILNA claim, in July 1990 and at about 2 oclock on the afternoon that I had been told to file it on this particular day because of

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what the Crown was trying to do to SILNA at that time, there was a box that had to be ticked that said iwi affiliation. Now, we did not know too much about our whakapapa. But at that time in 1990 because there was only fleeting information about Waitaha in the south, I said to my mother what I am going to put down in this iwi affiliation? and she said well, look, I think we must be related to John Timu, the Maori All Black. Now, signing Ngati Kahununu on the Wai 158 claim caused me huge problems. But out of those huge problems came people coming to me saying hey, we are related to you, we know Timu, we know her other name, her name is Timo, she was sent away, she was tomod to old guy called Pomare up in the Bay of Islands, another connection. Paragraph 17. Now, having worked as a traffic engineer in transportation planning, in 1986 I got involved in the SILNA issues, as I said. I started to become very interested in trying to understand how the ancestors had managed resources. I wanted to understand how they got resources from one place to another, why there were so many adzes lying around, why there were so many different stones. So I was constantly on the search for information. Maori in the South Island, in paragraph 20, had obviously had to adapt to climate and develop different and complex survival techniques, transport and travel systems. But, more importantly, they had developed complex supply chains of resources from sources and places of processing and then on to the market. Careful questioning when the opportunity arose brought to light information about three of the many manufacturing sites set up and maintained and managed by my Waitaha ancestors along the east coast of the South Island. Firstly, at Huruhurumanu, at the mouth of the Waitaki River. Members of the panel, I will just refer you very briefly I am out of order here but I am trying to skip around. This is what we do in the Environment Court, you have to skip around a bit. Appendix C, a note about the Willetts collection, which was just found one afternoon in February in 1853. It started the unearthing of a huge site. I commend to you, if you are ever in the South Island and you go to Oamaru, please go and look at some of these magnificent taonga. So they came from Huruhurumanu, the mouth of the Waitaki. Incidentally, my ancestress, Hine Roukawakawa is buried there. She was carried up from Colac Bay. It took about two years to get her bones up there, of course, in the process. But we honour her and I call to her every time I am driving south in my car to Rakiura. Secondly, at the Wairau Bar. I got involved in that when I was asked by the Canterbury Museum to comment as a Waitaha elder on the possible repatriation of kiwi remains. It was difficult, a difficult situation and I refrained from getting involved. Then thirdly, at Te Uru Tutaepatu in connection with a visit by Waitaha elders to the site of Pegasus New 101

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town near Woodend in Canterbury where one of the most significant manufacturing sites, one of the most significant archaeological sites in New Zealand was uncovered. I do not have the time to go into detail about these matters because of the time constraint. During the wnanga --I wonder then if, in order to keep things focused, and you have spoken about how the principal issues are at paragraph 32, I wonder if you could go to paragraph 32 then and carry on from there? With all due respect, sir, I would like to speak from paragraph 28, which is a lead-up which just talks about the voyaging waka and the connection from North to South and then I will go to the paragraph you requested. So that gives us context as to why this evidence would be relevant for this hearing? Because, sir, I would like the Tribunal to understand - - Yes. Move to paragraph 28 then. Okay. I wish to speak briefly about the ports of call of the waka that I was referring to visited in the South Island. These visits commenced at Rakopi, one at Whanganui in West Haven inlet, a safe harbour at the top of the South Island and then in the Waitaha histories in there, that was the stern of the waka. There is a brief karakia there, sir, which refers to tying the fish to the heavens and the heavens to the earth and then to Whakapoai and another brief karakia, then to Whanganui-iti, then to Okarito, then to Waitahanui, then to Tokomarino, then to Muritai, then to Manawakaiea, then to Poukarere and so on it goes, sir, through all of these ancient ports. Now, these names, sir, and members of the panel, have disappeared. They have all disappeared because they are held in Waitaha histories, but they are forgotten, apart from a few of us and with the panels indulgence, sir I will just explain one or two of them. Waitahanui, Bruce Bay, Tokomarino, the mouth of the Haast River, Muritai, Jacksons Bay, Manawakaia, Milford Sound, Pukareri, Secretary Island and Doubtful Sound, Mahiakokara, Preservation Inlet, Te Whatanui, Port Craig, Te Horomina, the gutter on Stewart Island and so on, Ki Wai, the Bluff, Tamatearoa and so it goes on, sir. Now, what I am trying to emphasise is that these vessels travelled around, but not only did they move the taonga, they moved people, they moved ideas, they moved political thought and in the lead-up to Whakaminenga, this was the way the news was disseminated. Now, in the interests of getting the gold star, paragraph 32. The principal matter, what was the understanding of the rangatira when they were preparing to sign he whakaputanga and with respect to the knowledge base of Waitaha, who were those rangatira, who were they signing on behalf of and what did they think they achieved?

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Now, members of the panel, I think that you can probably take the paragraphs that I have written there as read until we get down to paragraph 39 when I am quoting some of the information that I have heard at wnanga and in italics, Many of our people wanted to kill them, I am talking about the settlers, to drive them back to where they came from. Why do they have to live here? They are no good, drunken people who rape our women and girls, kill them when they are finished with them, some even shoot people as if we were animals and we have to bury unknown people and sometimes those who kill our people in unmarked graves for we do not know who they were. Now, they are notes that have been made at wnanga discussing some of the lead-up period. I am trying to tell you some of the stories that exist in the Waitaha wnanga. In paragraph 41 I refer to discussions and meetings that were held with the coloured people, and I use that term advisedly, who crewed the whale ships and if you read some of the contemporary information that is contained in documentation at that time, there were a lot of coloured people crewing on whale ships and it was them who talked about the declaration of independence and the magic Boston Tea Party in the United States of America. Within Waitaha we have Negro, American Negro tpuna who ran away from the south and became free and who brought their ideas here, and they were discussed openly. Many of our tupuna, sir, in paragraph 43 did not trust Busby because he was known to be selective about his name sorting, and I will leave you to read those words in italics in the interests of the gold star. In paragraph 45 our ancestors believe, as we do today, in the sacrosanct power of te reo. Now, I am not a speaker, but I understand that it is very difficult for scholars sitting in an office and not being in this context to translate the reo in cold hard words. There are situations when the reo is being spoken, which may refer to something that was spoken of before. So, sir, I say please be careful about these little translations. That is what Waitaha say. Waitaha in his time in the Hokianga had associations with James Clendon, and I mention those in 46 and 47.

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In 48 we have a more intimate relationship with James Clendon because he, for a time, had a wife called Elizabeth Ruka Te Korakora, known as Black Bess, who danced for him one night and he was smitten. Now, sir, in paragraph 49 of my evidence one of the other matters that is often discussed when the Declaration of Independence is mentioned is that it is a general understanding that there are some other nations who have signed this document, who have accepted it and I list those there. I have no way of checking those. But it is the belief within my whnau and the hap that via He Whakaputanga the rangatira of Niu Treni declared themselves an independent sovereign nation. In my view, and the view of my hap in Waitaha, this document is the founding document of what we now call New Zealand. In my view, this was the understanding of those rangatira who signed that document, the 103

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understanding that they had, and we, their uru whakatupu, understand and endeavour to enact our lives within our marae, hapu and whanau in accordance with that document. 5 As stated previously, those rangatira had in effect a delegated authority from various hapu whose leaders were often considered too frail to travel and, of course, I have skipped over that, sir, and members of the panel, but I hope that you will read it. In paragraph 54 I want to just refer to where a lot of this information came from. In the urupa associated with Mahuri Marae at Takehe, there are the remains of ancestors, descendants and whanau of up to nine of the people associated with the following rangatira, and I list them there, Wharerahi, Rewa, Moka, Patuone, Kekeao, Titore, Atuahaere (Te Wera), Matangi and Tareha. Now, there were people, those nine were involved in the choice of the flag. They are listed as having signed the whakaputanga. Some of them signed The Treaty; I am not quite sure whether they all did. But people who have famous ancestors and relations often like to talk about them and that is where the stories come from. At night when they are sitting with the deceased and the stories are getting a little bit dull, somebody can tell something about their famous ancestor and link that with the deceased. That is a tradition which is alive and well and that is how a lot of the information that I have gathered up and I have been privy to has come to me in recent years. Members of the panel, in paragraphs 59 and on I have attempted to collect up three little thumbnails, as I call them, about Moka, about Te Wharerahi I think that was the only two, I reduced it considerably, we did have more. But when legal counsel said we were going to be time reduced, I did reduce it. So I would like you to read those paragraphs carefully. I think that one of the statements made is very cogent, and it is paragraph 74, and I will read it. Te Wharerahi was the matua to Moka and Rewa and to Patuone as well. Patuone was a cousin to Moka and Rewa. In every meeting involving Patuone and his brother, Tamati Waka Nene it is stated that Tamati Waka Nene said Do not hurt these people and do not kill these people. If you feel you must kill these people, come to my home first and kill my mokapuna as they have the blood of these people. If you do that and kill them, every ship that comes in will look for you. It is going to be the blood of my people. In summary, it was Te Wharerahis belief, in paragraph 75, the idea of he whakaputanga was a move by Maori to prepare a document similar to the Declaration of Independence in America. He believed that our lands would never be taken under the Crown of England if that was done. He believed that whakapapa, being the understanding of genetics, was important and the introduction of new blood via assimilation with the English people would give us immunity genetically from the diseases that they brought and that this was the view of the others who signed it. That is my opinion, sir. 104

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From these three that I have mentioned to send some of the leaders who are currently before the Waitangi Tribunal, if not by direct blood lines, then with the relative inter-marriage that was carried out in the late 1700s and early 1800s. The principal claim of Waitaha is to be heard at some time in the future and I wont go into that now. But I just want to refer to the appendices, sir. Appendix A is from Athol Andersons book and shows the map of the coastal sites in the South Island. Many, many of those manufacturing sites for adzes, all connected by the double hulled waka on the journey that I referred to. If the double hulled waka did not stop at those particular ports of call, just as the container ships today go to principal ports, there were small waka that journeyed backwards and forwards that went ahead went behind. You will see on the next page the proliferation of them down in Otago and Southland.

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Then probably the most telling is Appendix B and I am not sure, members of the Tribunal, whether you have it in colour. If you do not, I would be happy to provide colour, but you can access that over the internet. But that shows the proliferation and the location of stone sources in the South Island and, of course, the double hulled waka and other waka and land trails which my cousin, Danny Watson, will refer to were means of moving the stone around, not only moving the stone around but moving ideas, political thought, information, relationships and blood. Thank you for your attention. I am happy to answer any questions.

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I have no questions, sir.

Richard Hill questions Robert McAnergney [10.26 am]


RH Greetings, Ken, nice to meet you again since our SILNA days and I commend you for your management skills during those difficult negotiations way back then. Thank you for bringing some of your knowledge base from Waitaha to us today. I just have one question which relates to your evidence, I think about paragraph 39 onwards, where you mention that your italicised words emanated from some of your wnanga. Mm'hm. You mention later also that some of your stories came from the stories you heard in krero in the evening and so on. But I am just wondering, the writings from the wnanga are they publicly available or are these your prcis notes taken from them? The notes are taken from many of the little red covered notebooks that one carries around and surreptitiously makes notes. Professor Hill, it is good to see you too again, sir. Kia ora.

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One of the things that was very disconcerting, I will answer the question this way, one of the things that was very disconcerting for me was that going to my first wananga there were no handouts, there were no preprepared notes. You had to sit and listen. I surreptitiously made notes. I made frequent visits to the toilet and I would scribble down in little notebooks and my children say to me Dad, when you are going to do something about these notebooks and get them all in order? But Richard, you know what it is like, you deal with SILNA, you deal with all these other things, you deal with a full time profession as an airport planner, you do not have time. Kia ora, thank you very much. Might I also add that in due course more books about the Waitaha history will be published and I am sure that in one or more of those books, many of these matters will be traversed with attributions to the ancestors that made them. Kia ora, Mr McAnergney, I wish to express my gratitude to you for bringing to the attention of the Tribunal the extensive trading routes and trading relationships, and especially for resurrecting the ancient names of those trading ports. Thank you very much.

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Judge Coxhead questions Robert McAnergney [10.29 am]


JC Trans JC Once again. I endorse the commendations to you. I was just interested in what you said at paragraph 49 about He Whakaputanga being something that was, according to your whnau, recollections that He Whakaputanga was something that was circulated not only in Aotearoa here but worldwide. Is that a held view of your whnau and hap? Once again, sir, that is a surreptitious note. But in preparation for this opportunity I made several journeys to the north thanks to Jetstar, direct flights from Christchurch to Auckland and a ride up with Danny Watson, or a rental car over many weekends. In trying to understand some of these things, one of our elders, who unfortunately through illness is not here today, stated that this document had been circulated to other nations and that other nations have signed it. If I was not so involved in Christchurch Airport just at the moment I would make some effort in that, but maybe the Waitangi Tribunal could research that themselves, could ask for their resources, because I pay entirely for all my fares, all my expenses and it is difficult justifying that to my wife, who says You are 70 now, stop spending money on the dark side of the blanket. Thank you for that, that is something we will look at. Ka nui ng mihi ki a koe, i haere mai nei ki te whariki ng krero o Waitaha. Thank you very much for your presentation. Thank you very much, sir, for coming all this way to tell us the stories of Waitaha. 106

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NG MTEATEA PT Kti r e ttou ma e mihi ana ki ng kaikrero katoa, me koutou katahi an ka hau mai, tn koutou. Koia tnei ko te r tuatoru heoi an me maumahara i te ahiahi inanahi i t mai a Waitai Tua i te mea, kua mate to rtou tuahine, n reira e mihi tonu ana ki tn whanau me ng mate katoa i huihui katoa i te r nei. E ttou ma, e te timatatanga o te r nei, mea atu au ehara tnei ko te whketere htiti ki ng iwi o Ngti Porou e ttiti k. This is not a sausage factory. I would like to thank the speakers to date. For those who have just come into our forum, good morning. This is the morning of day three and we recall the afternoon yesterday where Taitua rose to announce that their sister has passed away, so we pass on our condolences to that whanau, and indeed to all the whanau who are suffering losses. At the commencement of our morning I said this was not a sausage factory in terms of work. To the Ngti Porou, it is a sausage factory. However, in the interests of time, we do not want to have what happened yesterday where our Parawhau whanaunga were not able to fit in, so I will just quickly tell you what the programme is so that everybody is in the know. Immediately after morning tea will be Danny Watson, followed by our Parawhau speakers, Te Ihi Tiho, Pare Walker and then Maryanne Baker, which should take us up to lunch. Maryanne will continue after lunch, and then Marsha Davis, Renata Tane, Hilda Harawera, Hoki Painting and Wharetautau King will conclude the day. Around 5 we may have to stretch out the time. The times are you have already heard from the Judge that we have will take 15 minutes for morning tea. Morning tea is ongoing; people can go out and have morning tea any time you like so that it is not a rush at the tea times. Lunch will be half an hour and overall if we follow that pattern, we will save at least an hour, maybe more over the course of the day. I te mea, ko te kai a te rangatira he krero r hoki r. But just as importantly the talk Because the food of chiefs is discourse. - - - because the talk over the dining table is just as important as well.

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DISCUSSION Morning Adjournment 35

WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 1 [10.35 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 2 STARTS
Hearing Resumes DW John Charles Wells, ka puta mai Edwin Tewera Wells, Tewera ka moe. Mary Gledhill ka puta mai Alma, Alma Wells ka moe William Collins ka puta mai Lima Collins. Lima Collins ka moe the mokopuna o to Korako, Alex Watson ka puta mai ahau.

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No reira, e te whanaunga, ng uri o Rhiri kei te mihi, kei te mihi, kei te mihi kia koutou. E whngai tnei o te ranga takina te Korako Ruka taheke roa ko tpuna awa, Mahuri te marae, Pokewheke te whenua tapu, no reira, tihei mauri ora. 5 As you have already heard from my whanunga, kei te mihi kia koe e te rangatira ki t krero tautoko t krero, that in our urup there, are our tpuna who put their signature to He Whakaputanga. Now if you will indulge me and Im going for two gold stars and I will keep this really short, so please if you will indulge me. I want to talk about my suit. I did not get this from Winstone Peters, although he has not been in the House for a while, but if you think in terms of this suit, there are sheep in the hill called Mareno and they are bred for their wool and there are men that tend the sheep and they shear the sheep, and they look for buyers. They look for buyers in a world of trade and people buy that wool and where is it taken to, it is taken out into the world. How did they know about it, they listen, whakarongo e te krero o Aotearoa. So it ends up in Italy, whoa, ah, bonjourno, fantastic and they make the most amazing cloth and then the cloth is returned to another house somewhere in the world. This one happened to go to JBs in Auckland and Ronald made this suit for me. Why am I talking about my suit? Well you see, it is about trade and to trade takes time. To have produce and the things you trade takes an awful lot of time, and to carve stone sometimes takes generations. And when you are trading in stone, you are also trading in krero, heke ttou look, the bloodlines go with it. We heard from Ken, how Ken spoke of the waka that went up and down the coast here. They went everywhere. They didnt just bring the tt, they brought the krero the krero is so important. Now there was a question from the panel, aroha mai, about was it taken around. Was He Whakaputanga taken around? Our tpuna had the gospel in here. They didnt write it down, they had it in here. The whole Bible in here. Whkapapa, that goes on for two or three days in here. He Whakaputanga was in here. It went around in the krero with the stone, with the tt, with the whnau, with ng waka, thats how it went around. Why did it go around? We talk in terms of He Whakaminenga. Our tpuna were having krero and sharing beds, not for 10 years, 20 years, prior to Te Triti. They were doing it for hundreds of years and in our wanaga which I will address for you guys, thousands of years. It was all in the krero. How was the krero passed? How could my whanaunga, Ken stand here and talk of his little notebooks and all of the wonderful things? Hes not on his own. Man, I wore some notebooks out. I also wore my brain out sitting in the wnanga, on the moons, year after year after year, and you get to the point where youre about full up to here, but thats what it is, its krero. Now we are lucky enough to have in our whnau people that have opened the door and started to write it down. Whaea Awhina, she tautoko that. In this book Song of Waitaha is her tohu; there is a letter from her. Her tautoko is in this book, because she knew this 108

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krero. How did she know this krero? Hes from Rakiura. Well you head the whakapapa, were from everywhere. All of us are from everywhere. 5 Now He Whakaputanga, how did it come about? Some guy called Busby and got together and over two days and got our tpuna and said here sign this up, its cool. Thats just rubbish; they had been doing the Whakaminenga for hundreds of years. They just put a label to it to satisfy the Pkeh need for something to write down and they wrote it down. He Whakaputanga was a declaration, actually of trade, because we heard about the ships that were impounded. They did not have flags, that is how we got the flag. I do not need to go into this, we dont need a history lesson, we all know this, these guys. You guys all know this stuff. The bits you have forgotten, or we may have forgotten, is that we are all connected. Now, we are challenged sometimes. I have an older brother and he says if its not published twice, itis rubbish and Im sitting here going, brhhh, I dont get this, youe wasting your time. You go to this wnanga and you hear the stories, theyre just stories. We all know about Chinese whispers, they go around the room and they change. And so I said to my brother Kev, I said When the party gets to about 10 oclock, or 11 oclock at night, what are you doing? Another Saturday night and I aint got nobody - do you get the lyrics wrong? Ko. All of our histories, and we heard some today - kei te mihi ki ng tamariki - all of our histories are in the songs. We can play with the krero, but no one messes with the tapu of Ng Karakia. No body. So we are lucky enough to have some people in our whnau that decided it was time to place that krero. Now the tantalising taste that youve had from my whanaunga, Ken is just a little bit. Its just a window for us all. Lets not rush into this, but in this book here, it was written down. A scribe called Barry Brailsford was chosen by our kaumataua because of his understanding of the written word, his mana within acaedemia, you know the guys with all the pieces of paper on the wall, which our tpuna do not have. So, the songs were sung, thats why its called Song of Waitaha, its pretty basic isnt it, its not rocket science. They were songs and he listened to the songs, he listens to the translations, and like Ken, he made a lot of notes. Then the book was published. Now that krero is incredibly threatening. If you dont know it and you if have another story, but hang on, we can all stand on the same maunga and have a different tpuna on the same maunga - we know that So he was challenged and he was treated badly and that is another time and another place. But the krero, some of it is there. Its a window into Waitaha, Song of Waitaha followed by Whispers of Waitaha and there are more to follow as Ken said, because the information in the wnanga was just fantastic. It was delivered with lots of love, it was very very gentle.

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Now I want to go back to my suit if I may. The suit exists because someone planned to farm and have the sheep. The suit exists because someone planned to be a shearer. How many rouses do we have in the room here? We have been there, we have done that. It got shipped across the world. It got woven into cloth. It came back, a designer designed the suit. A guy put the tape measure around my waist and up to my middle leg and got very excited. I didnt, and then they made the suit. He Whakaputanga is the suit. It had been going on for a long long time. The planning was in the krero. They knew about these, millions of people out there. We had tpuna going out of this country, not in the 1800s, in the late 1700s. Check the records in your own whnau. They jumped on the whale boats, they went looking for technology. When Captain Cook came here, by the time he made his second landing, our tpuna were asking for that funny thing, the nails. How did they know, the krero had already moved. We are so connected. No disrespect to the panel, to the Tribunal, but successive groups in this country keep telling us we are different. We are apart and they set us against each other. The Huarahi o Rongo Maraeroa that our whaea tautokod is all about a wnanga that happens on your feet and you walk through the mountains on just one of the trails that those goods that Ken talked about are carried on, hinau pounamu, and it was carried from the coast to the mountain, where it is laying to this day, in a very tapu lake. And then in another season another whnau come from the other side and they come and they lift the pounamu and they take it down to be shaked and moved to our whanaunga and this was just one of the trade items. Now we are still doing that. We have never stopped doing. Waitaha are still walking the trails. It is very symbolic of what we carry because we are even limited in getting to the resource that our tpuna had. There are fences and land titles that stop us. In fact in our krero we have stories of our tpuna starving because they could not get to their resource. You heard a name in our whakapapa, Tamairoa, he took our people on a heke into the mountains to try and hold on to the remnants of who we are and what we do, and the soldiers still came. So to this day, I thank my whanaunga, Ken te rangatira, for bringing to you what is such a small gift, but it comes with absolute love of who we are and what we are because it has been carried in the same way and we have never stopped doing it. So my whanaunga in Ngpuhi, let's start walking the trails again together. Let's link the mokopuna together and that ng mokopuna, so that the resources flow easily just as they used to. no reira, kei te mihi kia koutou, ng mrehu e mihi an kia koutou, e mihi aroha kia kaha ki te Aratika o t krero o t aroha ki rongo He Whakaputanga. No reira, in summary and Ill go back to the notes if I may, just in case I make a mistake. These trails link us all - I dont need them. These songs link us all. The Whakaminenga links us all. Whakapapa links us all. He Whakaputanga o te rangatiratanga o Niu Treni links us all. When our tpuna signed He Whakaputanga they were were making a statement. They were saying to the world were open for business. 110

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Thats exactly what they were saying. A sovereign nation was saying the shop door is open. I would like to say, that same sovereign nation signed Te Triti o Waitangi with another sovereign nation, but that krero is for another time with this Tribunal. 5 piti hono ttai hono, te hungamate ki te hungamate, te wairua ki te wairua, piti hono ttai hono te hunga ora huri noa i tnei whare tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. JC AI 10 KM ?? KN 15 DW JC DW 20 RW He ptai? Kore kau he ptai, engari te mihi atu kia a koe te rangatira no Te Waipounamu, tnei te mihi atu kia koe. Tn koe. We need a gold star. E te rangatira, tnei ra ng mihi te Taraipiunara kia koe mo krero ko puta mai, i runga i te hohono o krero. No reira, tnei ka mihi ku kia koe, tn koe. Tn koe. Kia ora. And just closing as I sit down, my old teacher there, Rangi, do I get the two stars? Ka pai.

Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 2 [11.12 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 3 STARTS
Hearing Resumes 25 ?? and in just closing, as I sit down, my old teacher there, Rangi, do I get the two stars? Ka pai, ka pai e [Indistinct]. Kei wareware koutou ina haere mai koutou ki roto i a mtou te Waipounamu, haere mai ki Waitaha, ki Ngti Mamoe me Ngai Tahu, tn koutou. Lest we forget, when you come down to the South Island come to Waitaha, come to Ngti Mmoe and Ngi Tahu. tn koe, tn koutou. Mr Duncan, thank you. E te Taraipiunara, the next presentation will be that of Te Parawhau. They are here and they are in the house, and they are ready to proceed.

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Before we do proceed the presentation that Te Parawhau have put together has taken sometime to do so, and before they do present they would like to pay special thanks to Falia Tne who is next to me and Piripi Moa who have been instrumental in putting together a lot of the documentation to help them make this presentation. As they do go forward, sir, as you saw Te Ihi yesterday, they are respectful and they want to respect the amount of time that has been given so that everybody else gets a chance to present. However, sir, I do have to say they arent after gold stars, blankets or trinkets. They take their position, they participate in this programme to see their constitutional status realised. And with that, sir, I think I can hear them coming in. I will leave it to them. ??

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E t ana r i runga i ng irirangi krero. Ko te amorangiki mua, ko te hapai o ki muri, e ng kaihaut mai i te timatanga ki tnei nohoanga, ki tnei w tonu a ka mihi atu r ki a koutou. E Ngti Manawa, tnei ko te Parawhau kua tat mai ki roto i a koutou otira, ka mihi atu r ki a koutou. Me tmata kauwau ki roto o Whangaparao ki Tokataea. Tranganui Kiwa ki TaumatawhakatangihangakoauauTamateapkaiwhenuakitanatahu. E te whaea e Keita, Ngti Porou, tn koe, tn koe, tn koe. Mai i Hikurangi maunga, Waiapu te awa, e Ngti Porou, ka mihi atu r. Whakataua ttahatia r ki runga o Maungaphatu manuka ttahi atu he ptiki, moumou tangata ki te p, e Ngai Thoe, tn r koutou. Torotika te ara tera kei mua i a au ko te kuia nei kua torea te Whanau--Apanui. Ko te Whakathea e kare e Ranginui, e mihi ake r ki a koe. Tn koe. Ka whakaeke atu au i roto i te moana o Hopu e t ana te ihu o taku waka Mataatua, ko taku kuia ko Wairaka i whakatane i a ia. Torotika taku ara ki Moehau ara ko Tama Te Kapua o Te Arawa waka, Te Arawa tangata, Ngti Mkino, Ngti Pikiao, e te kaiwhakaw, tn koe. Ng kur o Whrei, Tikirau, Tikirau ki Maketu Tauranga Moana, Ngai Te Rangi. E kare, e Kihi, ka mihi atu r. Ka hoki mai r ki runga o Manaia maunga ki te tihi. Ko Manaia te maunga, ko Raumanga te awa, ko te Parawhau te hap, ko te Tirarau te tangata, tnei kua tat mai r o te Parawhau ki roto i a koutou. E ng hap te ktahtitanga o ng hap o Ngapuhi, ka mihi kau atu ki a koutou katoa. Mai i te timatatanga o tnei kaupapa ki roto i a ttou, he maha tonu ana to ttou marae, he maha tonu ana i ng w katoa. N reira ka mihi atu r ki a ttou.

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Ttaha taku ara ki runga o Hikurangi kiekie te whawhanui o Uenuku. Torotika taku ara ki runga o Motatau e Ngti Hine, a tn r koutou e Pita. Torotika taku ara ki runga o Phanga Tohor te puapua o Arai te Uru. E Ngai Te Uru tn r koutou. Ngti Pkau, tn r ttou katoa e Ngti Pakau. I roto i ng herenga e here atu ana e tnei i roto i a Ngti Pkau. Torotika taku ara ki runga o Whakatere, e whakatere ana ng waewae o twhakarere. I krerohia e k tpuna mtua i te krero teitei, i te krero hohonu i whakapaohohia e rtou i o rtou reo i runga i ng kare e rere nei, e rere nei, ka rere puta noa ki te Wahap o Hokianga 112

kia Wainini raua ko Arai te Uru e kuru pai mai r i waho i te Taipari whiuwhiu krero. Torotika taku ara ki runga o te Ramaroa o Kupe e Ngti Hau, Ngti Kaharau. Tn r ttou. Otira ki runga o Hokianga Whakapau Karakia o Ngatokimatawhaorua te waka, ko Nukutawhiti te tohunga, ttaha taku ara ki runga o Whiria te pae o te riri te kawa o Rhiri, thuri mai ki runga o Panguru Papat e t iho nei e t mai ttou i roto i a Ngti Manawa, n reira tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. E hoki mai ana ki o ttou mate maha to ttou tuahine kua ngaro atu nei ki waenganui i a ttou, e Ngti Rehia ka mihi atu r, ka tangi atu, tnei kua ngaro atu ki te Waonui a Tane, heoi an te krero m rtou, e hine, haere. Haere ko koutou tn ko hkai i te pae, kua koroki i runga i ng ttara teitei i te Waonui a Tane, e hine, haere. Haere r i mua i te tirohanga iwi kua mahue iho nei e koutou ki te ao troa. Haere atu ki Manawakore e kiiae hikoi a te Whetu, hikoi a te mrama, ka rere, ka rere, ko te tai whaea. Haere. Haere i te ara o Twhirimtea o Titi Mtanginui, ka tangi ng pttara o Uruao, o te Wharar o te rangi, ki Pururangi ka tau ki Hororangi, ki te kpunipuni whakapau rangi o Whakaotirangi. He rakau ka ruruku whakataka noa a Parawhenua mea, he au heke te au, he hau rere te hau. Koia heke nei i te tangata ki te p, e rere nei te wairua ki te rangi. Ae i titiro ki runga ki a Rehua. Kua akotia nei ng matemate kaha i ahu mai i te au o Tahumatep kei rawa atu ki runga i te aroaro o Matariki, o Herekikini, o Heremomotu tangata. Ki runga o Wairoti, ki runga o Hawaiiki. Me whakatria tn whare me korangi aio, ko ng tohu e rua i maka ki runga rawa hei tohu m te rangi. Nahaku k ao te horohiko te r an e mutu, e iti, e mauri ora. Here, ki here tangata, herea e te kkano o te rangi e t iho nei, tpirihia te mate hei taura kumekume i a taua i te tangata ki te p, ka p te kawatawata aroha ki te mata huatau, ka tangi atu ki te hunga kua kpani atu ki ng tatau o te p, a te iwi nui kua whakarehurehu ki t o Paerau, e te tuahine, ko koutou tn, haere, moe mai. Moe mai r koutou, moe mai i roto i to ttou ariki. N reira ka hoki mai e te Karauna, ka mihi atu r ki a koutou e Anaru tn r koe a o koutou. Ko koe me t tira kua tae mai n reira ka mihi atu r ki a koe, n reira huri noa, huri noa e ttou ma, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora mai ttou katoa. Trans I stand here on the time honoured words, sacred things to the fore and physical needs to follow. To the organisers of this meeting, from its commencement until this time, I acknowledge you. Ngti Manawa, this is Te Parawhau who have come amongst you. Let me commence in Whanga Paroa, Whanga Paroa to Tokataia, Turanga-nui-a-Kiwa, to Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauatamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu, greetings to you, Keita, Ngti Porou, greetings to you. 45 From the mountain of Hikurangi and the river Waiapu I acknowledge you and then turning unto Maungapohatu, Whakatne, Thoe Potiki, wasteful 113

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of men to death, to Ngi Thoe, greetings to you. And going direct to the path and this kuia Torea, Whnau Apanui and Whakathea, Dr Walker, I acknowledge your presence, greetings. 5 Then leaping into my waka Mataatua and to my ancestress Wairaka who turned herself in to a man, and my path goes direct to Coromandel to the resting place of Tamatekapua, Ngti Makino and Ngti Pikiao, Judge Coxhead, I acknowledge you. And from the dogs of Wharei to Tihirau, from Maketu, Tauranga Moana, Ngi Te Rangi, my elder Kihi, I acknowledge your presence. 10 And returning to the mountain Manaia to the summit. Manaia is the mountain, Raumaunga is the river, Parawhau is the hap, Tirarau is the man and we have come here to Parawhau amongst you, the hap, and the unity of the hap of Ngpuhi, I greet you. From the commencement of this hearings amongst us our marae is still filled with people at all times, so I acknowledge one and all. And my gaze goes upon Hikurangi and to the expanse of Uenuku and my path goes direct to Motatau and to Ngti Hine, I greet you Pita. And my path goes direct to Puhanga Tohora the blow hole at Araiteuru, Ngaituteauru, greetings to you. 20 Ngti Pkau, greeting, we of Ngti Pkau. In the genealogical ties I have ties that link me to Ngti Pkau and I go direct to Whakatere that rushes the waters beyond and where the discourse of depth and breadth and where they broadcast their voices upon the waters that flow to the hub of Hokianga, to the guardians, Niniwa and Araiteuru at the mouth of the harbour. And my path goes direct to Te Ramaroa, Kupe, greetings Ngti Hau and Ngti Kaharau. And upon Hokianga Whakapau karakia, Ngtokimatawhaorua is the waka, Nukutawhiti is the tohunga. And my path veers to whiria, the tap root of strife, the customs of Rhiri and turning now unto Panguru Papata that stands here, that we may come into the realm at Ngti Manawa, greetings, greetings, greetings, one and all. And acknowledging our many losses. Our sister who has passed on, Ngti Rehia I acknowledge and lament with you for the loss of our kin, but one word for them, oh madam, farewell, farewell, traverse the path that goes amongst the tall trees of the forest of Tne, farewell, go and leave the people as you go to Manawa Kore and walk to the moon, the stars, farewell, follow the path of Twhiri-mtea through Titimatanginui and the pttara the conch shell of Uruao, blow for you and settling at Hororangi, the camping place of the spirits. There is a tree that delves into the seas, parawhenua mea, and the tide is a downward tide, and that is the descent of man to the darkness. As their spirits ascended to the heavens gaze upon Rehua in the firmament who has beaten death and the many deaths that have been heaped before the playites and before the stars above Hawaiki and Wairoti and 114

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his house was constructed and the symbols that were placed there in the heavens. And binding the man, binding the seed of the heavens, and death shall be the rope that pulls us man to the dark. 5 And we lament those who have passed through the doors of death to the people who have gone beyond the veil; I say madam, rest in peace, rest in peace and abide in the Lord. Returning to you, the Crown Counsel Andrew, you and your team who have come here. Greetings. So it is one and all in our forum. WAIATA 10 Rimurimu teretere, tere ki te moana Tere ana ki te repo. He w aho e. Tirohia e [INDISTINCT]. He marino ana e Kei roto i ahau he mramatanga e Kei te tiro te huka i runga o ng iwi Kei te moe e, koro me te wairua e Rite tonu ki to taonga, ki te tirairaka e Waihoki to [INDISTINCT] te wairangi i te [INDISTINCT] Trans 20 As the tides go out to the sea, flowing and eddying beyond the coast and gaze upon the waters without. How calm, how calm. And within my sole it is raining and I see the froth tipped waves that come upon the people who sleep the eternal sleep of the spirit and I liken it to your resemblance. And to the bird that flits and flutters, and you will image. N reira ka hoki atu ki ng taumata krero o ttou tpuna mtua o te nehenehe, piti hono, ttai hono, koutou te hungamate ki a koutou, e moe, e moe i roto i te ariki. Ka hoki ihio ki a ttou ng mramara o Rehu mahuetanga i a rtou e mihi nei, e tangi nei. Otira e maumahara tonu nei m a rtou. piti hono tatai hono, ttou te kanohi ora ki a ttou. Huri noa, huri noa, ng tpito katoa o to ttou tpuna whare e t ake nei. E tapuiti, e tapurahi, e te ptanga akuanei, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora mai ttou katoa. Ka hoki iho au ki te whakatau mai i au kaikrero o te tuatahi ko te Ihi Tito, ko te tuarua ko Pari Walker, kia ora mai r e te Taraipiunara, e te Karauna. Tn koutou. 35 And so in the time honoured words of our ancestors of old, those who have passed on beyond the veil, may you rest in peace and abide in the Lord. And returning to we, the survivors, the descendents who lament and recall them, and we say farewell. 40 ?? And as we congregate amongst ourselves, the living, all of us in our ancestral house, home to my people, greetings. Kia ora mai ttou katoa.

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[INDISTINCT 11.30.50] Now that I have brought my speakers first is Te Ihi Tito followed by Pari Walker. Thank you Judge, thank you members. Tn koutou e te Karauna, tn e te Taraipiunara. Kua oti hoki te krero o te Rangatira i t i mua i ahau ki te korero atu ki a koutou, ehara i te mea he taki i a koutou kua oti. Greetings to the Crown, greetings to the Tribunal. Our Chief has made the appropriate introductions and formalities but this is not to trample upon you. Taku ingoa ko Te Ihi Tito. I noho ahau ki roto i Tangiteroria. Kei reira hoki te p o te Tirarau me Taurau. Ko Te Whareroa tera me te marae i te mutunga o tera p ko Mataiwaka tera. My name is Te Ihi Tito. I reside at Tangiteroria. There is the p of Te Tirarau and Taurau. Te Whareroa is the name and the marae at that p is Mataiwaka Ko ahau he uri no Kukupa o Te Parawhau, ko Whitiau n Ngti Rehia n reira tangi ana m ttou whanaunga e takoto mai kei runga ki reira, , te w ka hoki atu ki reira.

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I am a descendent of Kukupa of Te Parawhau and of Whitiao of Ngti Rehia and so I weep and lament for our kin who have passed away, and in time we will attend her funeral. My job - my position is to overview, to take you the geographic journey from the East Coast to the West Coast in Whangrei. And how Te Parawhau evolved from Ngti Ruangaio and take you through the battlefields pre-1830s to 1840. And my colleague will come behind and mop up. So this whakatauki, e pnei ana: Ko Rangi ko tama o te Korekore, Atua o te wai tapu e, ka whakawehia a Rangi rua ko Papa, ka whakapukea te tangi aue. Kei a Rangi he uapunehunehu, he hoa hotuhotu e. Riporipo te moana roimata a Papatnuku e. Ka puta ki waho ko ng wai e rua mai te ripo o Hikurangi mai te Tai o Rahiri e. Trans Rangi and Papa were in dread and Rangi has the fine mist of the rain upon Papa-t--nuku and begetting the waters from Hikurangi and from Rhiri. Ka moe Te Mangakahia ka moe i te Wairua ka puta ki waho ko te Wairoa me tona mana hoeroa ko Pokopoko, ko Kahukura ng taniwha ko Rangariri te Rakau Whakangau Tai. Ka rere te tai tapu ki Waihh kei raro ng maunga Tangihua, Ttemoe, Tokatoka, Maunga Raho, Maunga Nui, me rtou whakatauki e.

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Mangakahia married Wairua and begat Te Wairoa and its mana Pokopoko and Kahukura are the taniwha and Rangariri is the tree, and the tide fair crashes on Waihihi where the mountains are, Tangirua, Tutmoe, Tokatoka, Maungaraho, Maunganui and their sayings. 5 Ka rere te tai tapu ki te p nekeneketanga o ng waka i roto i Te Kaipara, ki Tporapora huri waka whakarere wahine puta atu ki waho ki te Moana nui a Tpokapoka Tawhaki kia whakatau ana ki te t i t Mauao, whiti rongo, haere mai te toki, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. And the sacred tide flows to the place where the waka berths, to Tporapora where the waka upturns and capsizes and outside to the great ocean of Tawhaki and arise, arise. Kake ttou n runga i te koa. He manu tipua kia titiro ai ki te rohe o Te Whangarei Terenga Paroa ka kuikui ka kaokao ka rere. Titiro ki Manaia ki tai, ki Parihaka ki uta, kua h te ao o te awa e rere ana mai Ahipuku ka rere ki te whi tapu te pou herenga waka a Hhaua. We are here in joy. It is a sacred bird that gazes upon the lands of Whangrei Terenga Paroa and screeches and then soars. Gaze upon Manaia at the coast and Parihaka in land and upon the rivers that flow from Ahipuku as it flows to the sacred place where the waka were berthed at Hihiaua. Ka rere te tai tapu ka t taki te tai ki ng paripari o Matikohe me ana nei krero kia mutu a Tau te khui o ng tohor, te terenga o ng paroa I haere mai rtou i runga I te hau o te marangai, ka rere ng ngaru. 25 And the sacred tide surges on and crashes upon the cliffs of Matakura and its stories. And unto Motu o Tau, the Island of Tau, the gathering of the whales who came on the winds of the ocean. Ka titiro ng ngaru ki Rhuikur e whakangau ana te tai, ki Rehotahi, ki Poupouwhenua, , ka karekare te wai o te wahap o Terenga Paroa kei raro te maru o te maunga Manaia e titiro ana ki ng motu I waho a Taranga me ana nei tamariki, Mui Roto, Mui Waho, Mui ki te Taha, Mui Tikitiki a Taranga. And the waves gaze upon Rahuikuri where the tide laps incessantly to Rehotahi and to Poupouwhenua. And the waters of the harbour Whangrei froth and foam below the mountain Manaia that gazes out to the islands without Tranga and his children Mui-roto, Muri-waho, Mui-ki-te-taha and Mui-tikitiki-a-Taranga. Ka titiro ki a Ruarangi, ka rere ka whakatau i runga i te nohonga o Torongare. Ka titiro te kauamatua ki te wahap o Terenga Paroa n te rrangi o ng waka ka mhio ia he hoa, he rwaho rnei. 40 Gaze upon the Rurangi that flies and lands upon the residing place of Torongare and then the elder gazes upon the harbour of Whangrei and the fleets of waka and sees, yes, to strangers coming.

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Ko te Parawhau te hap me ng whanaungatanga ki a Ngpuhi putanga, n reira tihei mauriora ki te Wheiao ki te Ao Mrama. H! N reira e ttou m. 5 TIT Parawhau is the hap and the kinship ties to Ngpuhi, and so I arise to the world of light. Hi. One day we could be enemies, the day we could be friends. You know, you lean your animosities to the side and join the confederation of chiefs, hi. How the Parawhau name evolved. 10 Ki runga hoki I tenei whi o Hhaua ki roto o te Whangarei a Terenga Paroa, ka tae mai hoki a Ngti Wai, ka noho rtou ki reira. Kei waenganui hoki a rtou he wahine rangatira, ko tona ingoa ko Knui. Ko tana tne ko Paroa n Ngti Wai. Trans 15 Now, at this place Hihiaua and the Whangrei Harbour Ngti Wai came and they resided there, and amongst them was a woman of chiefly birth named Konui. Her husband was Paroa of Ngti Wai. N, tnei wahine he tuahine a Kangapuhine ki a Te Pora Harekeke n Ngti Ruangaio, , ka k atu hoki ng rangatira o Ngti Wai Haere koe ki te krero atu ki t tungane a Puna, mea atu ki a ia karekau mtou i tae mai ki te whakararuraru i a koutou, kua tae mai m te w poto ka hoki atu mtou ki Whakaruru. Haere koe ki te krero ki t tungane. Now, this woman was a sister of Tepuna Harakeke of Ngti Ruangaio and the chiefs of Ngti Wai said to her, Go and talk to your brother, Pona. Tell him we have not come here to disturb them but we are only here for a short period and then we will return to Whakaruru. Go and talk to your brother, tell him that message. N, ka haere ia me tna tira wahine ki te p o te Puna Harekeke, ko tr hoki te whi e t ana te hohipera a Whangarei i te r nei. N, ka haere mai hoki a Knui, ka kite hoki a Knui kua haere mai n taku tuahine ka titiro ia rangatira hoki na kkahu n, kei runga i a ia te kaitaka, ki runga I tana kak hoki te tiki pounamu, iri mai ana na taringa kuru pounamu. Erangi i te mea kua rerek ko ng ptiki, e ranga tona makawe. E whitu rtou. And so she went with her party of women to the p of Puna Harakeke where the Whangrei Hospital stands today. And Konui came and saw, and he saw, Oh, my sister is coming and he gazed out, Oh, shes wearing fine arrayments. She had a chiefly cloak and around her neck she had a greenstone pendant, and from her ears dangled precious earrings, greenstone earrings, but the very unusual thing was the things tying her hair her braids. There were seven braids. Ka whakaaro ia ng krero o ng kaumatua o mua he aha tnei tohu he ngkau. Ko te tikanga o he ngkau he tohu whawhai.

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And the brother recalled the stories of the elders, now what is this sign? What does this mean? And he thought about it, Ah, it is a ngkau, it is a sign of fighting to fight. 5 Ka k atu a Knui ki tona Tuakana e te tungane kei konei hoki a Ngti Wai ki runga koutou whenua o Ngti Rua Ngio. Erangi kihai rtou haere mai ki te whakararuraru i a koutou, te w ka hoki rtou ki te kinga. Ki te haere koe ki te whakararuraru i a rtou, m ia ptiki he ranga kotahi rau o ng toa o Ngti Wai. Ka mea atu a Puna oh n nanakia, tn koe e te tuahine. Kei ahau e whitu tekau ka nui te even shot, e te tungane kaua koe e haere ki reira ka mate koe i reira, hoki koe ki iwi e te tuahine. And Konui said to her brother, Brother, Ngti Wai is here on your lands of Ngti Rungaio but they are not here to cause trouble. In time they will return to their homes. If you go to disturb them, for each of these braids is equal to 100 warriors of Ngti Wai. And Puna said, Thank you, oh that is good, for I have 70. I have 70, and that is enough. Now brother, do not go there. Do not go and upset those people, brother. And he said, Sister; you go back to your people. Awatea, ka haere hoki a Puna, ka whawhai ia ki reira, pki whawhai ki roto o Whangarei Terenga Paroa, puehu puehu pai. Ka mate hoki a Te Puna i reira, ka mate. Ka hoki atu a Ngti Wai ki rtou kinga ki Punaruku, ka hoki mai hoki a Tirarau tuatahi, ehara I te Tirarau Kukupa. Ka tangi, o e hoa m n wai i mahi atu tnei mahi, n wai I patu atu i a Puna?, Ngti Wai ng whanaunga o Hori Parata me rtou m. Ae mrika. In the morning Puna went and he fought them big fight in Whangrei and the dust raised and Puna died there he died in battle. And Ngti Wai returned to their homes at Punaruku and Tirarau the 1st (not Tirarau Kukupa, but Tirarau the 1st) came and saw, What happened? Who killed Puna? It was Ngti Wai. The kin of Hori Parata - all those people. E ono o rtou i haere ki Whangaruru, tae atu rtou ki Whangaruru kei reira hoki ng toa (oh theres a bit many of them now). Ko tnei hoki te whakaaro o te kaumatua, Tirarau tuatahi e Rangi, haere mai kia whawhai tua anake, waiho ki toa ki te taha, ka waiho ku toa ki te taha kia whawhai tua. Then six of them went to Whangaruru and when they got there and the elder, Tirarau the 1st said, Rangi, come lets dual, you and I. Leave your men to the side, you and I, and I will leave my men to the side you and I, one on one. 40 Tahi r ka whawhai, haere mai, kakamai! Ka hinga atu rua ki roto i te wai. Roa ki te wai tonu ka kaukau, ko wai, ko wai, ko Ngti Wai tnei. Ka mate hoki a Tirarau ki roto i te wai, erangi he whawhai rangatira. And they fought, and what a fight it was, parry; attack. And they fell into the water and people were looking down in the water and next minute

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they were looking the people were looking and they were seeing Tirarau drown. However, it was a noble dual. Ka t mai hoki te rangatira tona ingoa ko Rangitukiwaho, hari atu t koutou rangatira ki te kinga, he whawhai rangatira tn. Kua houhia te rongo mai i taua w tae noa ki tnei w, kua houhia te rongo. And the chief stood, his name was Rangitukiwaho. Take your chief home, he fought a noble fight and peace was made from that time unto this day peace has been permanent. 10 Tahi ana rtou ka p te rau o te whau ki runga i te tppaku, wera hoki n r ka p ki runga hoki i te tppaku. Ka hari atu ia ki te kinga, ko te rau o te whau, ka hari atu rtou ki Whatitiri ka oma tahi o ng toa I mua o te taenga o rtou, ka tae atu rtou ki reira hoki ng whine e tangi ana. Otir tangi hotuhotu, ka whakatakoto hoki te tppaku ki runga i te papa, ka tangohia ng rau o te whau, kua para katoa te tppaku,e rapa ana hoki ng para ki runga i ng whau. And then they placed the whau leaves upon the body of Tirarau until it was covered with the whau leaves and he was carried off home. These are the leaves of the whau tree. And they took him to Whatitiri and some of the warriors went in advance and they arrived there and the women where there mourning, carrying their funeral dirge for Tirarau, and they were crying inconsolably and the body was laid on the ground and the whau leaves were taken off the body. E rapa ana. Mai i taua w tae noa ki tnei w ka hua tnei ingoa ki runga ki a mtou kia kore ai e wareware ki te toa ki te kaha o Puna Harakeke me Te Tirarau Tuatahi. And the body had gone off because they were all sticking to the leaves and from that time unto this day we have taken that name so that we may never forget the bravery of Puna Harakeke and Tirarau the 1st. E tatou m ko tr te tikanga o t rtou hap Te Parawhau. 30 Ladies and gentlemen, this is the meaning of the name of our hap, Te Parawhau. nei rkau te rahurahu me te whau he rkau mana ki a mtou. Te Uri Roroi me Te Parawhau he hap kotahi, kore e taea ki te whakawehewehe. 35 These trees, the rahurahu tree and the whau tree are trees of mana to us Te Uri Roroi and Te Parawhau are one hap. They are inseparable. N reira e ttou m koia tn ka mhio koe i anga mai mtou n hea, I mhio koutou I anga mai t mtou ingoa n hea, n reira ka tmata ai ki te krero, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn an ttou katoa. 40 And so, ladies and gentlemen, that is so now you know where we come from, now you know where our name emanates from and so now we can turn to the evidence proper. 120

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Te Ihi Tito reads to his Brief [11.46 am]


The evidence that I put before the Tribunal relates to TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF protect and maintain the entrance of the whare tapu of Ngpuhi. 5 TIT Trans TIT 10 Titiro ki a Manaia, titiro ki Tutemoe, Tutemoe e titiro ki Maunga Nui. The Southern wall of the Whare Tapu o Ngpuhi. Gaze upon Manaia, gaze upon Tutamoe, Tutamoe gaze upon Maunganui. War, the whare tapu of Ngpuhi. Boy, we got some hidings for you fellows, troubles and sins that you have cast upon us down there, e hoa ma. You know, etahi w ka rongo te ptt o te taiaha ki runga t tatou kuaha who goes there? I haere mai i runga i te karanga o Tu, I haeremai koe I runga I te karanga o Rongo? Pono mrika hoki tr. Sometimes we hear the banging of the taiaha on our door. Have you come in war or peace? That is the truth. It was down at that south wall, the south wall of the whare tapu of Ngpuhi. We still do. Us and Hori Parata and them from Ngti Wai down there, all the rest of the other Parawhaus down there and the other people. N reira, you know there was three names of Terenga Paroa and there are a lot of people who ka phh ng whakaaro ki ng ingoa, so well lets clear it up now. Trans 25 Some people have mistaken beliefs about the names. The first one was those beautiful, he mahanga haere mai ttahi hua, ka rongo hoki a Uaoneone ki runga o Whangape, te papai hoki ng hanga o ng whine ki roto i Waikato. Ka haere ia ki te titiro, tika mrika, te papai hoki te hanga o Reipai rua ko Reitu. Engari kore e mhio ko thea ka hoki mai ia ki Whangape. A te p ka t mai ia ki te maunga o Whakakoro, n ka tmata ai hoki ki te whakatangitangi tana koauau. Trans Oneone of Whangape learned of the beauty of these twins from Waikato so he went to check them out and he confirmed, yes, they were beautiful, these twins, Reipai and Reitu, but he could not decide which one was the best so he came back to Whangape and at night he stood on there mountain of Whakakoro and he began to play his flute. Ng whine ki roto whare ka rongo hoki oh ko Ueoneone tn. N, ka haere hoki tr manu ki te tiki hoki r putiputi haere mai ttahi hua. I runga tr manu te Karearea ka rongo tahi ko te Hokio - kore ko te Karearea ka whakatika hoki tr. N, ka tae te raruaru ka kite hoki tr maunga, tae atu ki reira Manaia, pnei hoki a Reitu i te mea I mua. And the women, those women heard, Oh, it is Oneone. And so he sent forth the bird to get those two beautiful maidens. And on that bird it 121

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was not a hokioi, it was a krearea. I want to correct that. And then he saw that mountain reaching Manaia, Reitu she was in front on the bird. Are we too heavy? One of us should get off, eh? The one at the back I heard that. I want to get off here. Nah, ka heke hoki te manu ki raro. 5 Trans And so the bird descended. First time a bird has ever landed on it, thats why they got the airport there, 600 years ago. 600 hundred years, whoa, thats the first good thing Pkeh done, put the airport in the right place. Thats enough, stop it. 10 Koia tn ka hua hoki te ingoa Onerahirahi, the Place of Whispering. N, koia tn ka hua hoki tn ingoa Whangarei, te whanga o Reipai, I hope from now it will be called like that. He rua hoki ng ingoa, Whangarei Terenga Paroa. Trans 15 Hence the name, Onerahirahi and so that name came to be and then Whangrei, the harbour of Rei and Pae. Now there are two versions Whangrei and Terenga Paraoa. I ng r o mua ka haere rtou ng tohunga ki waho, kua phh ng tngata ka mea mai ko te Terenga Paroa ki roto kore, ki waho! I rongo koe te krero o t ttou krero innahi, ko te Terenga Paroa kei waho, kei reira e t ana hoki te tohunga mai I te tawhito, mai te tipua.. karanga, karanga ki a rtou ka whakautu hoki ng tohor. In the old times the old people the tohunga would go. The people would say people think that Terenga Paroa is within the harbour. No, it is on the sea. You heard yesterday about Terenga Paraoa is outside of the harbour and there the tohunga was standing and offering up his karakia. Ka haere mai rtou ki uta ki te whangai hoki ng maha hap ki roto me ng taonga pnei hoki o te tohor, ko nei taonga n ko te ingoa tuarua te Terenga o ng Paroa. 30 And he was calling out to them and the whales responded. And they would come to land and to feed the many hapu and to provide them with such things as the whale bone, patu. And that is the Terenga Paraoa part of the name Whangrei Terenga Paraoa. Te tuatoru ko tnei, I haere mai ng tohor I runga I te hau o te marangai. Ko Hongi tn me ng maha rangatira te haere mai rtou ki tr whi o Matakohe, te whi o Motu a Taua. N kite koe I tr te motu a Taua tn te khui o ng tohor o ng rangatira. I mua o t rtou haere ki ng pakanga kite koe te rahi tr motu a Taua kei reira hoki te w e hakahaka ana, e mirimiri ana I mua t rtou haerenga ki te pakanga. A Matakohe, ko tn hoki te p o Te Ihi. N reira e ttou m koir tr te tikanga o ng ingoa torutoru o Whangarei Terenga Paroa. Thirdly, the whales came on the wind. It was Hongi and the many chiefs. They came there to Matakohe, to Motu o Tau. You see that little Island, 122

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Motu o Taua, that is the gathering of the whales of the chiefs before they left for war. You see the Motu o Tau, they would carry out their haka and their speeches and Matakohe was the home of Te Ihi. And so, ladies and gentlemen, that is the explanation for the three names of Whangrei Terenga Paraoa. This is the reality from which our identity was forced TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF [11.56.52] the attention of other matters that also highlight this fact. 10 TIT I te tau 1819 ka tae mai Ngti Paoa ki roto o Te Whangarei Terenga Paroa. Ka haere mai rtou ki te whawhai i te Parawhau ki runga o Onemama koia hoki te p o Te Kukupa. Ki te whawhai ki a Te Ihi ki runga I te mata o te p o Te Matakohe. Ka aha rtou, I mauheretia a Taurau me tana tuahine. Ka haere mai ana rtou mai te taha o Matakohe kei reira hoki a Tirarau me Te Ihi. Ka whakahihi ana ki a rtou e hoa, kua mea mai n taku rongo tino hoa koe, tino toa hoki, e hoa kei ahau tuahine, t teina. In 1819 Ngti Paoa came to Whangrei. They came to fight with Te Parawhau upon Onemama. That was the p of Kukupa, to battle with Te Ihi on Matakohe P. They were imprisoned Taurau was imprisoned and his sister. And there came from Matakohe, because Tirarau was there and they were boastful of themselves, and they heard you are a real chief but I have got your sister and your younger brother captive. Ka haere nei ki Tamaki ki Mauinaina ka karanga atu a Tirarau Kaea, he p m taku teina, he p m Taurau. I aua w I waimarie hoki koe ki te whai p, waimarie. Ka hoki mai ae. Ka tuku atu hoki te p kanapanapa pai ana m tana teina. Ka whakahihi tonu ia ki Te Ihi ka mea mai a Te Ihi, kore e roa kua haere mai ahau i te taha o Hongi. And so he went to Tamaki to Mauinaina and Tirarau said, Kaea, a gun in exchange for my younger brother, a gun in exchange for Taurau. In those days you were lucky if you had a gun. And so yes, it was agreed the musket was shining as he handed it over in exchange for his son. And he is still boastful today and Te Ihi said it will not be long and I will come with Hongi. I will be back. He maha hoki ng krero e p ana ki Te Ihi. Ka hua hoki tnei ingoa ki runga i Te Ihi Te Mana o Ngpuhi, erangi khai Ngpuhi, khei te Parawhau e hua tr ingoa ki runga ki a ia. Ka haere ki ng maha pakanga Mauinaina, Ttara, Mokoia, Rotoiti, te maha, te maha. Te Ika-a-Ranginui n ng hoariri I whakahua tr ingoa ki runga ki a ia. Kore rawa ia e mau p, n reira kore e wareware ki te krero a Kaea Haere mai koe ki roto o Tmaki i te hiahia r te krero mai ki ahau. Koina ana krero ki na toa I mua o te haere atu ki a Hongi ko tnei kaua rtou, kaua koutou e p t ringa ki hoki a Kaea, waihotia m ahau. Tae atu ki reira ki reira hoki a Kaea, he tino toa hoki a Kaea, haere mai hoki a Ngpuhi ki roto e 40 nna i patu a Kaea. 123

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There are many stories pertaining to Te Ihi and the name Te Ihi, he was given another title Te Mana o Ngpuhi but Ngpuhi and Te Parawhau did not give him that name, he went to the many wars Mauinaina, Te Ttara, Makoia, Rotoiti, many, many battles. Te Ika-a-Ranganui it was his foe who gave him that title. He did not carry a gun and Kaea never forgot that when he goes to Tamaki, before they left with Hongi to battle, he said to his warriors do not lay a hand on Kaea, he is mine. And Kaea was waiting because Kaea was an acknowledged warrior and Ngpuhi entered and Kaea killed 40 Ngpuhi. Koia tn ka whawhai ia a Te Ihi, n Te Ihi I wikitoria. N reira e ttou e Te Ihi I whara ia ki roto o te pakanga o Te Ika a Ranginui. Tr pea he tau muri mai tr pakanga ka mate hoki a Te Ihi, muri atu tn kua mate hoki a matua Kukupa. And so they duelled and Te Ihi was victorious, and so ladies and gentlemen, Te Ihi was injured at the battle of Te Ika-a-Ranganui. Perhaps a year after that battle Te Ihi died and after that his father, Kukupa died. The mantle of authority then passed to Tirarau who took TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF

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in Tangiteroria e pnei an: Kaua e whakahorohoro. You see like yesterday, eh? You thought we were going to attack. No, not yet. We come up here because we know that things are rushing on, we know that the power is failing so, you know, we are reasonable people. You need to go back and have rest so you are clear and you are not tired. We did not want you to go about 7 oclock and have to ride right around. No, we came back today. You know our tpuna, he never rushed. He took his time. If you look, he signed it always later.

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So, you know, our tupuna and then the final one this is so important. Kaua e whakanui i a koe, waihotia m te iwi. 30 Trans Do not extol your own self. The people do it. That will do, that will do. This is the one that I always, always get it it always reminds me of my mother. My mother was 92 when she passed away. My Dad was 97, he was born in the 1800s. Aunty Phoebe died in 1964 at 99 years old. They saw those tpuna and you know what? I was so fortunate to look back through their eyes. I was so privileged, of what? But they always said never, ever give everything away. And I dont just enough. So our tpuna was careful, they were calculated. This is TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 40 would have signed the Whakaputanga on 9 February 1836, late.

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Careful, careful, ki ta haere. You know, this krero is one of our whakatauaki too. Its way back: I muri te t moko e tu an he tangata m, kia tpato. Trans 5 Behind the tattooed face is a white man. And then Te Tiriti, on around 13 May, give or take, 1840, placing his name along with Pomare and Kawiti above others. You know, I always picture myself that Kawiti said Haina koe i te Tiriti?, not yet, taihoa, you sign first, kahore, kahore. Trans 10 Have you signed The Treaty? No. You sign it first. No, no, no. You see, so we are very close to Ngti Hine, kia ta haere e hoa me ta titiro ki ng kupu ki roto I tnei, ka tukua te, he aha tnei mea? Te Kwanatanga, tukuna te Kwanatanga. He aha te tuarua? Kei a koe ake rangatiratanga. Kei a koutou ake rangatiratanga. Trans 15 Take your time. Have a close look at this part and kwanatanga will be ceded and Article 2. You will keep your own rangatiratanga. Okay, we will sign it in good trust, in good faith, because we have got the flag, the declaration of independence. That is good. So we trust you, yes. It is about trust and integrity. That is what it boils down to. It has got nothing to do with money. 20 The reasons that he joined the confederate will be covered and mopped up by my colleague, Pari, on behalf of our hapu. It is important to emphasise TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF statistics lowering life expectancies. 25 TIT You know, Maori people die 14 years earlier than non-Maori. That is a fact. I work in a hospital. This is not the future Tirirau sought for his mokopuna TE IHI TITO CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF its about respect, honour, dignity and integrity. 30 TIT You know, you look at people who have really made a difference, a change in the world you know, make a difference their name echoes through the ages forever; Mahatma Ghandi. You know, today could be something really big, but I really, really am overwhelmed that we have finally got to this stage that you will listen to us, thats awesome. You know, if you have the guts no, thats not a nice terminology. Let us act like chiefs, act like them and with dignity.

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If it changes and it has got it right it will echo forever, It got fixed in 2011. The person who had the courage he who dares wins; but with dignity with dignity. 5 One thing I know, if you seek mana and power it will elude you, but if you share your wisdom, your knowledge, integrity and compassion whilst in a position of influence your works and deeds will live on long after you are gone. That is mana and power. 10 You know, ka tangi an tku ngkau m Buddy Were Tapau he fought this fight many years ago and everybody thought he was crazy, him and Mori Pao, tangi atu tku ngkau ki a krua ko takoto krua i waenganui I ng tapuwae rtou m, takoto mai e te tuakana e Wiri Tapau. Takoto mai e Mori. Trans 15 My heart bleeds for Buddy Wiri Tapau. My heart goes out to you; rest in peace my brother Wiri Tapa. Rest in peace Mori. Takoto mai e Mori, I wish you would have been here to see this, that the Crown those people are being honourable thats what its all about, its being honourable. 20 N reira, kia whakatau ana ki te t i Tamaua whiti, haere mai te toki, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Tn koutou. TIT JC I hope there are no questions. Mr Irwin?

Andrew Irwin questions Te Ihi Tito [12.13 pm]


25 AI JC TIT AI 30 Yes, I do have some questions, sir. Mr Tito, if you just come forward, Mr Irwin has a question. Kia ora. tuatahi tnei te mihi atu kia koe e te rangatira tnei te mihi ki a koe m t whakamramatanga mai o t hap, m ng whi o t hap n reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koe m ng krero i whrikihia mai nei mua i te aroaro o te Taraipiunara, I mua hoki o te aroaro o te Karauna n reira tnei te mihi. Thank you very much for your evidence and for your points of clarification, for your hap and the significant sites of your hap, so thank you very much for that. I must say for my part I am glad Morley Powell was not here today because of how he used to give me an ear bashing on the telephone

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And I had the distinguished honour of acting for the Crown in the proceeding that Mr Powell brought a number of times, and it was quite humbling that my few experiences before the Court of Appeal I twice lost to Morley Powell who had no law degree. 5 TIT AI TIT AI 10 Trans AI 15 TIT AI TIT AI 20 Tn koe, tn koe. But Mr Powell always corrected my Mori when I attempted to say tn koe to him, and so for my part I am glad he is not here, Engari. They were before their time, sir. They were before their time. e. He mea puriki ki ahau nei n te mea kore e taea e au te haere ki tana tangihanga, he mea pouri ki ahau tn heoi an he ptai ku mhau. I am sad that I could not attend his burial. But I have a question. I wondered if I might ask you whether your parents spoke to you at all about He Whakaputanga? When krero come out we have books at home, books that go way back. And whether they spoke about Te Whakaminenga at all? They did mention his krero, e. e, koin ng ptai engari te te mihi atu ki a koe he honore m mtou te haere mai nei ki te whakarongo ki ng nawe a te iwi ki ng whakamrama hoki kei muri I ng nawe a te iwi, n reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koe. That is all my questions. But it is our honour of the Crown team to come here to listen to the concerns of the people and to the clarifications behind the concerns of the people. Thank you very much.

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Ranginui Walker questions Te Ihi Tito [12.16 pm]


RW tn koe, Te Ihi ktahi an au ka rongo I ng ingoa o ng moutere r, ko Mui Roto, ko Mui Waho, ko Mui Pai, ko Mui Tikitiki a Taranga. E toru ku haerenga ki r moutere I runga I taku poti. Ktahi an au ka rongo koir te ingoa tapu m r moutere r. Kua whakahweatia e te ingoa kua utaina i a rtou, kua whakaheiheitia, kua whakapptia. Tr e tono ana koutou kia whakahokia mai ng ingoa tturu? Thank you, Te Ihi. I have only just heard of these islands, the Mui Islands outside of Whangarei. Three times I have been to those islands and this is the first time I have heard the real names of those islands, and those islands have been degraded because they have been called the Hen and Chicken Islands. Have you asked that those names be returned the original names? What I am asking, is it your desire for the proper name to be returned to those islands?

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Yes, not the Hen and Chicks. I whawhai hoki mtou kia whakahokia te ingoa a Parihaka. Koin hoki mtou hononga ki Hawaikinui, Hawaikiroa, Hawaiki Pamamao, n reira kei te mihi atu ki a koe. The next speaker is Pari Walker. Will this take us through to lunch, or are you expecting us to go over lunch? No, no, this should be finished before lunch, sir. presentation, a short presentation and - - Thank you. Kua tukua te tira mate ki tua o Paerau ka noho te tira ora ki te ao troa, ka t te tira o te Parawhau. And to the losses beyond Paeroa, leaving the living to this world, and so the - - My name is Pari Walker. I am from Te Parawhau It is a short

Pari Walker reads to his Brief [12.18 pm]


to fast forward through to the times of our tupuna. KARAKIA Trans 20 PW The beginning was Io Matua Kore, it was his breath that he infused into his descendants. Has life force and thymos This is where we as a hapu believe the kaupapa

PARI WALKER CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF for the next 27 years. PW 25 I just want to give a quick brief on where these places are so that over where? No, I cannot see it. I just want to give you an idea for the Tribunal and the other representatives. The part I am taking about is that there at Te Rewarewa Tahi, that was the first p site, because it was aligned with He Wakaminenga. The hap there was Ngti [Indistinct], now that island is Motuekanui. Now around the corner here is another island called Ririwha where Tirarau had his p site, and to the right of it Te Ngaere is where the first meeting took place. PT 35 Mr Pou, I have just had a call from the kitchen that they are ready for lunch now.

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So I just wanted to bring that to your attention. Now following on from this: In 1834 a trade agreement was reached with Maori

PARI WALKER CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 5 JP in the gifting of a trade flag. Excuse me, Pari, just break. Sir, I am looking at his evidence, there is only three pages to go, he is rocketing through it. He would probably be finished in about five to eight minutes. It is probably better to carry the flow. Get it finished now? Yes, sir. Thank you. When the flag was handed to Maori and PARI WALKER CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF 15 likely started after the hakari on the 6th. Kia ora mai ttou.

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Andrew Irwin questions Pari Walker [12.35 pm]


AI 20 JC AI Sir, I do have some questions but perhaps Mr Walker would like to have his lunch and come back afterwards? Let us get through the questions and finish this speaker. Mr Walker, tn ra rawa atu koe. You hold the tohu, you say, of Kai Arataki for He Whakaminenga o Ng Hap o Niu Treni. Could you explain to us what that role is? Kaitonotono for the rangatira. Worker, fetcher. Sorry that is about all I can yes. That is what it is. How long have you held that role for? Seven years. Who was your predecessor? Thats privileged information that I cant give to you. Taihoa. Could you tell me what does Te Whakaminenga do today? 129

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I can tell you what I do. Te Whakaminenga o Ng Hap o Niu Treni speaks for itself. I do not speak for it so I cannot tell you what they do; it is up to the rangatira. Once you engage with them as the Crown after 170-odd years out in the cold then you guys might be able to find out what they do. Kia ora. Are you nevertheless able to tell me how often Te Whakaminenga meets? Whakaminenga meets on the 28th of October as in the Whakaputanga o Ng Rangatira every year. Where does Te Whakaminenga meet? They are held at Waitangi. Waitangi, at Te Tii? Yes. Does Te Whakaminenga keep records of meetings? The Whakaminenga do keep records because - Te Whakaminenga do keep records. They are very private to Te Whakaminenga. Yes. Just one final question. In your presentation you came before the Tribunal and you spoke to the places where meetings were held a very long time ago, and I do not think that what you said was actually captured on this recording system. I just wondered if you could repeat the places where Te Whakaminenga met that you explained before. The creation of the Whakaminenga are you talking about? Well I think you just recorded the p where the meeting - - The first p to be aligned with Te Whakaminenga o Ng Hap Niu Tireni was called Rewarewa Tahi. Have you got one of those things that go out? Just the names, Mr Walker? Okay. Rewarewa Tahi was the first p to be aligned. The Motuekanui was where it was done the green light by the tohunga and Te Ngaere to the right of that was where they actually kicked off from the rangatira to go out to that motu. That - - Yes, ka pai tn. Kua nui, no further questions. That is satisfactory, thank you very much. We have no ptai, Mr Walker. N reira, tn rawa atu ki a koe ki a koe hoki Ihi, koutou katoa I haere mai nei whrikihia ng krero. Thank you very much, Mr Walker, and to you Te Ihi, and to all of you who came to present your evidence. Kia ora. 130

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WAIATA Luncheon Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 3 [12.43 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 4 STARTS
5 Hearing Resumes TA Kia ora mai ttou. I was very interested in Anarus krero about Morley Powell this morning. Thank you for that, that was very interesting. There is an old saying at the bar which a QC said to me, was we cant choose the strength of our clients cases, can we, but we can only do our best. We cant choose the strength of our adversaries case as well. So I am very glad to be on this side of the divide at this stage, kia ora mai ttou. Our next speaker, your Honour, the brief of evidence of Maryanne Baker, I believe the number is C32. Ko nei ttahi o ng uri o Te Kerema, n reira mku e tuku atu ki a ia kia whakatakoto na krero. She is a descendant of Te Kemara, so handing over now. tn an r ttou katoa, huihui nei i tnei ahiahi kua mhio ana kua nui ng mahi ki mua I a ttou ko te mea e haere tonu ana ttou I te huarahi tika. N reira ka mihi ki a koutou o te whnau o te w kinga, ki a koutou o te Taraipiunara, ki nei o ttou whanaunga I te Karauna. I tnei w kua t mai t mtou kaikrero m Waitangi e krero ana ng huatanga i p I roto I Waitangi ki t rtou tupuna. Ka uhia ana mku e whakamutu rtou krero e p o rtou tpuna I tnei w ko taku tuahine ko Maryanne Baker te kaikrero, ko tahi I muri atu I a ia. Kia ora an ttou. Greetings everyone, and greetings to the hapu and the home people, the members of the Tribunal. At this time our speaker for Waitangi will come forth to speak of matters pertaining to Waitangi and their ancestor. I am not here to deliver their evidence pertaining to their ancestor, but this is my kin, Maryanne Baker, and one after her. Thank you.

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Maryanne Baker reads to her Brief [1.15 pm]


30 TA MB ... by the ritenga and tkanga of He Whakaputanga. Paragraph 73 please. As for Te Kemara he has nearly been wiped off the ...

MARYANNE BAKER CONTINUES TO READ TO HER BRIEF ... by Te Atua, He tapu, He tapu, He tapu. 35 And this last saying is a combination of us as Kemaras with Aperahama Taonui: Ko ng taniwha katoa o tnei motu. Ko Niwa, ko Arai-i-te-uru, ko Te Pouahi. Kore i mate. I moe nei tae antia ki tnei ra. Maranga maranga. E t, e t. 131

The taniwha in this island Niwa, Arai-i-te-uru and Te Pouahi they are not dead, they are just sleeping, to this day, so Ngpuhi arise and stand. TA 5 AI JC Trans 10 JC Kia ora, Maryanne. I wonder if you could just field any questions from the Crown or the Tribunal. Sir, I have no questions. Engari, te mihi atu ki a koe i te tuahine, tn rawa atu koe. We have no questions, Maryanne, but we do want to mihi atu ki a koe m nei krero hhonu nei, mo nei krero whnui ng krero taahua. Thank you very much for this evidence of depth and breadth and beauty. So we thank you for presenting that korero to the Tribunal. Thank you for collecting all this krero, which Im sure he taonga tnei mu, he taonga m t hap. No reira, tn koe, tn koutou. This is a legacy for you and your hap.

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NG MTEATEA 15 TH JC TH JC 20 AS Tn koe [Indistinct] tn koe, engari kia tpato kia kia mau te krero tika, haere atu ai r, e t. Tn koe, Maryanne. Tn koe, tn koe, tn koe Ngpuhi kia kaha. Tn koe, Maryanne, tn koutou. Kia ora an ttou e huihui mai nei I runga I te karanga o te kaupapa nei, kei te t au ki te mihi ki a koutou te whare tapu o Ngpuhi. Kei knei au I te manaaki I te hpai ttahi o ng kaikrero mai Waitangi hei kinaki hei whakamanahia ng krero I puta mai te mana o te wahine nei a Maryanne. I runga I taua tmanako kore au I te noho wahang n te mea ko te koa o taku ngkau I whakarongo ai ng krero I whakahaere I ng hui nei. Tn koutou ng tohunga, ng kaikrero, ng hap, ng iwi I knei kei te tautoko, kei te whakamanahia te kaupapa. Ka huri atu au ki a koutou te rp whakamana me taku hoa o te Karauna, aroha mai ka huri au ki te reo tuarua o tnei whenua I tnei w, ko tku nei hiahia kia mhio ai katoa rtou te whakahaere o oku nei whakaaro m taku tuahine. Thank you everyone gathered here. I stand here to acknowledge Te Whare Tapu o Ngpuhi.. I am here to assist one of the claimants from Waitangi, to add to the evidence of Maryanne and in that hope I am happy to hear the evidence and I acknowledge the tohunga and the claimants and the people of this area. I turn now to the members of the Waitangi Tribunal and my friends of the law. I will speak in English so that we are clear about what I am about to say. I wish to turn to the Tribunal and say Ive been very silent this week, its been an unusual fact for me. But I have been deeply moved by the 132

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quality of the submissions today and I do not think you are going to be disappointed by the next speaker. She is someone that I have known for a long time who is normally the quiet worker at the back of the marae that makes things work at Waitangi. In her job though she is a curator and a holder of many of the records that is hugely important for this period which we are here before and I am very grateful that she has agreed to offer her insights versus some of that knowledge that has been made available to her. It is my pleasure to introduce Marsha Baker. Her mother gave evidence for Ngti Manu in the second week. She today, however, will be giving evidence not only for that side of her whakapapa, but also will be supporting many of the perceptions that had been offered by her people of Ngti Rhiri and Ngti Kawa and as a trustee of the most sacred ground which we travel to yearly to honour the two documents that are before us. On that note, I would like to invite Marsha to introduce herself to the hui and for the hui to bear with her. She is not like me; she is a soft, quiet woman with all the dignity that women bring to these things. Kia ora.

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Marsha Davis reads to her Brief [2.11 pm]


20 ... said by my grandchildren, about our hopes of this process. In closing I wish to address three issues which arent in this brief. The first one, is as an uri of Whetoi-o-Titaha o Ngti Rhiri ki Waitangi, we are opposed to the initiative led by Sonny Tau and the Rnanga o Ngpuhi to ender into direct negotiations with the Crown. 25 JC MD Hoi, hoi. The Tuhoronuku model, being takiw marae based, stands outside the claims framework which is being brought forward by hap, iwi and whnau. The second is compensation versus land repatriation. Compensation amounts to the payment of land after the fact the sale after the fact, as a result of land taken from Mori through the transgressions of the Treaty. It is the land which is important to Mori. Compensation maybe viewed as settling for something less. The third one is Mori names which you talked about with a previous client. We would love our Mori names for those places that were renamed through the doctrine of discovery to be given back to those taonga. Kia ora. JC Kia ora. Mr Irwin?

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40 AI Yes, just a few questions, your Honour. Ms Davis, could I ask you to turn to paragraph 10 of your brief? Sub paragraph (b) in particular that I wanted to talk to you about. At paragraph 10 you say Upon realising the full import of the consequences of clauses 1 and 2 of He Whakaputanga and then you go through what those are in (a), you say at (b) The Crown 133

caused Te Triti o Waitangi to be drawn up and applied in an attempt to nullify he whakaputanga. MD AI 5 MD Yes. Is it your point of view that the Colonial Office instructed Hobson to come to New Zealand to obtain a Treaty for the sole purpose of nullifying He Whakaputanga? I say this because there are other documents there between the Colonial government, between He Whakaputanga and the signing of he whakaputanga and Te Triti, which ask Hobson to come to New Zealand to see if they can actually get the chiefs to cede some of the land in the Bay of Islands, only some of the land in the Bay of Islands, okay, and they did that specifically for commercialism for trade and they wanted to establish more factories there. So myself personally, I do feel that once the British realised that they had written themselves out in terms of control, in terms of He Whakaputanga, that yes, there was needed to be some way for them to put themselves back into the picture and take control again. But just to be clear, is it your point of view that in Britain in 1839 there was a realisation that Maori in New Zealand had sovereignty and that must be stamped out and therefore Hobson was instructed to come to these islands to stamp that sovereignty out? He was. Could I ask you to turn to sorry? That is what it says in the documents anyway. That is what it refers to in the documents. Sure. Could I ask you to turn to page 5 of your evidence and to footnote 3, which you read out to the Tribunal. Would you accept that it is partly because of reports such as these that by the middle of 1839 the British government felt it had a moral obligation in respect of New Zealand in that it had to act in respect of that moral obligation and it sent Hobson, for reasons such as these, such that New Zealand could come within British sovereignty so that lawless British people in New Zealand would come under British law? I realise that is a very long proposition, isnt it? Yes. Can you break that down please? Yes. I think I in footnote 3, which you read out, there is a report there of the problems of lawless Englishmen, it is referred to there, being in New Zealand and some of the problems that they are causing. What I am putting to you is that it is reports such as these that cause the British government by the middle of 1839 finally to do something about this, that British authority, British sovereignty needs to be extended over New Zealand to take control over lawless British people in New Zealand. Do you accept that that is one of the motivations for sending Hobson to obtain a treaty? 134

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That might have been one of the motivations for the Crown to do that. Yes, of course. But you have got to remember that in the documents there were other references made, particularly to trade, okay, and we know that at that particular time the British empire was also working within India and the USA and so they had that model going and it worked for them, and there is lots of references to putting that model into play into New Zealand I guess there was one particular circumstance that really did push the British government into action, and that was the actions of the New Zealand Association sending ships to New Zealand for their proposed settlements. You would accept that that was one of the key motivations in finally prompting the British government into action? It may have been. Yes, it may have been. I think what we have to do is go back to He Whakaputanga and look at the articles that were in there and to see whether, when the Crown had actually agreed to that and then had changed the boundaries I would say, because between that time, between 1835 and 1840 we know that there was a lot of reports going back from Busby in terms of the trade and possibly the resources and the development of that trade to the advantage of the Crown in England. Could I ask you to turn to paragraph 22 of your evidence? This concerns the permission that was given by Governor Macquarie of New South Wales to a proposal that certain businessmen be able to set up a company to operate in New Zealand and the time of this document is this is from June 1815, isnt it? 24th, yes. You say at paragraph 22 that in giving this permission he was giving permission without the knowledge of Mori chiefs. He, being the Governor I presume, presumed the right to do so as an agent of the Crown and his aim, you say, was the same as Captain Cooks, which was to expand the British empire in the Pacific region. Can I ask you to turn to that document? You have appended that as your Appendix 1, havent you, at the conclusion of your evidence? Sure, yes. It is just that final paragraph, isnt it, of that document that pertains to Governor Macquaries permission, isnt it? Mm. Now, would you accept that, of course Governor Macquarie at this time has no jurisdiction over New Zealand at all, does it? No. And would you accept that the reason why he is being asked for permission in this instance is because, and this comes in the end of the first sentence of the paragraph in question, the reason why Governor 135

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Macquarie is being asked permission is because these traders wished to establish a commercial company in New Zealand to the exclusion of all other traders. MD 5 AI Yes. And so if Governor Macquarie were to give permission to that, the effect would be there would be a monopoly, this company would have a monopoly on trade from New Zealand into Port Jackson? Yes. It is that aspect of the proposal that Governor Macquarie declines, isnt it? Yes. In the final sentence he says that he does not see that there can be any objection to the gentlemen being able to establish a factory at their own expense and, of course, he cant see any objection because he has no jurisdiction over New Zealand. That is correct? That could be your interpretation, yes. Certainly. He says that he can see there as being no objection to their doing so. He does not, in fact, give them permission as such to go and establish the company in New Zealand, does he? He simply sees that there is no objection so long as, of course, he says, they do so with the permission of the native chiefs. So he, in fact, is respecting the jurisdiction of the native chiefs. They are the ones who are to permit this exercise; he has no jurisdiction so he is not granting, if you like, permission for their activities in New Zealand. Do you accept that? I do not accept that. What I look at my interpretation of this is that if he had wanted the permission of the chiefs, he could have held back that permission for the factory to be established until he had actually gotten permission from the chiefs. It is like going into somebodys house and actually not being allowed to go in there, like it is not your house, entering someone elses house or someone elses whare. So what I suggest is that perhaps the way to have handled this, because remember, he did not have any jurisdiction, okay, was to talk to the chiefs first and then get their permission, written, because remember, they had the missionaries there to interpret, and then give that permission in an official document that he had permission from the chiefs and then perhaps they would have gone in there, he would have been able to, with the permission of the chiefs first. I am putting to you that he did not permit the traders to go to New Zealand. Rather, I am putting to you that he simply had nothing to do with that. What he has said is - - I disagree with you. Yes, I think we disagree on that point. 136

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Yes. The one final question I have is that in making his statement he has not pre-empted any permission that the Mori chiefs may or may not give, has he? He has said I see no objection in them going there, so long as they do so with the permission of the native chiefs. If the native chiefs did not give permission, well they could not conduct their activities. Would you accept that he is not pre-empting any permission? No, not really. I see that if he wanted if he was the legal authority in New South Wales and not the legal authority in New Zealand at that particular time, then the correct way is to go through to the chiefs first and say Hey, we have some offers here. We would like to establish some factories, get their permission and bring it back to those people. Then perhaps the chiefs might have said Okay, well we will give them exclusive right. We do not know. You cant see - - He is pre-empting, he is pre-empting them. No, further questions, thank you very much. Kore he ptai.

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Annette Sykes questions Marsha Davis [2.58 pm]


20 AS Two questions of re-examination. Can I start with the second, can I take you to paragraph 26? I will work backwards from my friends questions. Now, in your paragraph 20, you were asked a series of questions by my friend about why you believed Macquarie pre-empted chiefly authority. That is essentially the several parts to my friends question. You actually set out in your evidence, dont you, at paragraph 26 why you believe that when you read the letter that pre-emption is obvious. Can you amplify that please? I will make it simpler. Why do you believe pre-emption was clear? You have given an explanation to my friend that a proposition was they could have come in, asked the rangatira and made it clear. That did not occur, so why do you believe there was pre-emption? Because in the same letter it also talks about having Reverend Samuel Marsden also go to New Zealand to start a mission there. Okay, so there is two things that are happening there, he is basically taking requests in his authority as part of the Crown in New South Wales and pre-empting the Maori chiefs at that time with both subjects, firstly Christianity and the church missions, and secondly trade. So there was a course of conduct described in the letters that gives you confidence at your conclusion that pre-emption was being made by Macquarie? Yes. Thank you. Now, the second question I would like to take you to is the first series of questions. He took you to page 3 of your brief of evidence 137

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and to the propositions that were put there by you in paragraph 10. Then my friend spent some time talking with you at paragraph 22 of your brief. So are you clear what I am asking you about? You said in response to his questions that it was quite clear that there had been a shift in the motivations of the Crown. If I could put this in a theoretical way, are you suggesting to my friend in a practical example that the first series of correspondence, which is the 1831 you are looking at, is about assertion of mana rangatiratanga, assertion of independence, and that is recognised by King William the Fourth in that he only wishes in that response to 1831 to extend his authority to cover the unlawful behaviour of British citizens? That is clear, yes. But then there is a shift, isnt there? There is a shift. Could you amplify what that shift is? The shift is that in the Kings reply is that he then looks at extending his authority, which is not what the chiefs asked for. So when you say extending authority in the first proposition, he only wants to govern Pkeh people. In the second proposition though, he is now saying he will govern Pkeh and Maori, is that correct? That is correct. Thank you, I have no further questions. We have no questions. Tn koe. Thank you for your presentation. We are going to take a 10 minute break now and then we will come back with Renata Tane. I see, people, that we had done well in catching up and now we are behind time again, so we will look to move through the next speakers as quickly as we can.

Afternoon Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 3 SESSION 4 [3.02 PM] FINISHES


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Hearing Resumes PW Kia ora mai tatou kua huihui mai i tnei ahiahi ki te hau kinga koutou I whakatau mai nei manuhiri ki t marae kinga, tn koutou. E te Taraipiunara ko te kaikrero I naianei ko Mr Renata Tne, e k ana kore he mister, n Ngti Kawa, n Ng Rhiri. Ko te nama o tona pepa ko C18a. Sir, Mr Tne advises that he has a few amendments which well file at a later date, kia ora.

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Greetings everyone, greetings to the home people who have welcomed the visitors. Renata Tane is the next speaker of Ngti Kawa and Ngti Rhiri and he is C18(a).

Renata Tane speaks to his Brief [3.15 pm]


5 RT Tn koutou, tn tatou e te tpu tn koutou. Ranginui tn koe. I mua o taku tmatatanga me whakatakoto ia taku ppa. Tnei ppa n taku matua tupuna a Hori i ng w i a ia e nawe ana i tnei tmomotanga i waenganui i a tatou i te tmatatanga o tr rautau. Ktahi ka tika ki te tuku whakamoemiti ki t ttou nei kaihanga. Greetings everyone, greetings Ranginui. Before I commence I will lay down my paper. It was given to me by my ancestor. He wrote these at the time he was concerned about issues and this was at the commencement of last century. Firstly, observations to the creator, incantation to commence evidence. N reira ko te whakaaro nui ko te wehe ki a Io nna I homa, nna ng kete I tango, n reira e Io e Io e Io, n Io i te wnanga, Io I te tikitiki o ng rangi, Io I te toi o ng rangi takiri mai te ara tipua te rangi ka whakaheke te w, whakaheke te p, weu, te more, reu, te wao nui a Tne. Whano, whano haere mai te toki, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Incantation invoking Io Matua Kore who fetched the baskets of knowledge and brought them back to earth, which caused the creation of man. Tnei au, tnei au, tnei au ko te hkai nei, ki taku tapu wai ko te Hkainuku, ko te Hkairangi, ko te Hkai o t tupuna a Tnenui a Rangi i pikitia ai ki te Rangithh ki te tihi o Manono i rokohina atu r ko Iho mtou koir anake. i riro i ng kete o te wnanga, ko te kete tuatea, ko te kete aronui e. Ka tiritiria, ka poupoua, kia Papatnuku ka puta te ira tangata ki te Wheiao ki te Ao Mrama, hui e, Taiki E! Ka hoki atu nei ng whakaaro ki ng w o mua i te w o nehe, i te w o ttou mtua tpuna, i tae k mai ki tnei whenua Aotearoa. Mai tr o ttou nei tupuna a Kupe tatu mai ki tana mokopuna a Nukutawhiti, n reira mai i wa ka tatu mai ki ng r i kowhiritia tnei tmomo huatanga ki waenganui i a ttou. Ka mihi ki a Iho Matua, ka mihi ki te whi ngaro, ko te whakaaro nui ko te wehe, ko te wehe tonu i a ttou inaianei. E wehe tonu ana, e wehe tonu ana e te whnau Ngpuhinuitonu. Nna ng mea katoa mai i te tmatanga tae noa ki te mutunga, mai a Io Matua te Kore tatu mai ki a Papatnuku. Let us return to the ancient times, the times of the elders who came to this land, Aotearoa. From the time of Kupe unto his grandchild, Nukutawhiti. Then coming down unto the times when the tauiwi came and acknowledgments to Io Matua Kore. We are still in dread and turmoil, Ngpuhi nui tonu. The god, Io Matua Kore, descending to Papat--nuku, everything on heaven and earth is his, hers, theirs. Kua mimiti te puna I Taumarere, kua tae mai katoa ng hinengaro o Ngpuhinuitonu ki te Hokianga. N reira ka mihi atu ki te whnau o te 139

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Hokianga, ng kaitiaki o te waka o Ngtokimatawhaorua, I kohatutia t waka. The waters dry up in Taumarere because the intellect, collective intellect of Ngpuhi has come here to the Hokianga and so acknowledgments to the kin of Hokianga, the guardians of Ngtokimatawhaorua which was fossilised. Mai te w a Kupu a Matahourua, tukuna tana waka kia haehaetia, mai I tana mokopuna a Nukutawhiti. Ka tangi te reo o ttehi o ana whine he ao, he ao, he ao tea roa. Ttou m koina te ingoa tika o tnei whenua o ttou. Tturu mai r an o ttou mtua tpuna. From Matahourua, Kupes waka and he let his waka be re-fashioned again by his grandchild, Nukutawhiti. And one of his women called out during the journey, He ao! He ao! he Aotearoa, a cloud, a cloud. That is a name from the ancient times for this land. 15 Mai I a Nukutawhiti ko Puhi Te Aio, he ingoa tawhito tr o Ngpuhi. Puhi-Moanaariki, Puhi Kaiariki, Puhi Taniwharau. Koina ka Ngpuhi ai ttou,Ngpuhinuitonu. Mai i ng rekereke maunga t te ao, t te p o ttou nei maunga whakah e Tiria, te paiaka o te riri t ttou nei tpuna a Rhiri. Engari kaua e wareware ki tana wahine Ahuaiti. i noho ai tr pou i Te Pukenui, kore i tino tawhiti atu i taku kinga, mai i reira ko ng Tokimatawhauroa ko tana kotiro a Moerewarewa. Koina t ttou nei Whale Rider, e ttou m, koina te tohor i ahau mai i Hawaikinui, Hawaikiroa, Hawaiki Pammao. N reira Keisha Hughes kore i te whakaiti i a ia engari i reira o ttou nei mtua tpuna e ttou m. Mai I r an. From Nukutawhiti unto Puhi Te Aeawa, an ancient name for Ngpuhi. Puhi-moanariki and Puhi-kaiariki, Puhi-taniwharau. Ngpuhi nui tonu, from the base of the mountains, constantly day and night, our prestigious mountains, whiria, the tap root of strife. Our ancestor, Rhiri, and lest we forget his wife, Ahuaiti, who resided that Te Pukenui, not far from where I have my house. Then Ngtokimatawhaorua and his daughter, Moerewarewa, that was our whale rider in the day. Takauere, who came from great Hawaiki, distant Hawaiki, long Hawaiki. Taua Taniwha r kei roto o ng papawhenua a P Rahirahi, kei tr taha o ng riu pukepuke o roto o Kaikohekohe he kaitiaki o t ttou nei taniwha. Rongo nei ng krero o te tuahine nei e krero ana ki ng taniwha ar a Araiteuru, a Niniwa, ng kaitiaki o te waka o Ngtokimatawhaurua, te waka a Matahaurua a Kupe. Kei knei e kaitiaki ana te whenua o Ngpuhi. Aniniwa kei raro i ng rekereke o te maunga Pihangatohor, Araiteuru, kei te wahap e mea ana te mngai o te wahap o te Hokianga he kaitiaki i reira. Ko t ttou nei waka o roto o mapere, he roto tapu tr. That taniwha residing at the flats at Rahirahi, on the other side of the valleys around Kaikohekohe. They are guardians and, as we heard from my kin about Niwa and Araiteuru and Matahourua of Kupe, they are here guarding and caring for the lands of Ngpuhi. Niniwa is at the base of 140

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Pihangatohor, Araiteuru at the mouth of the Hokianga Harbour, guardian over that region and our waka at Ompere. I roto o ng pakanga i roto Ngpuhi e teretere ana ng kiwi i runga i ng waka, ng waka tppaku o mapere. Ng pakanga o t tatou nei hap mai i Tmati Waka Nene, a Patu One me taku karana matua a Hone Heke, ko toku karanga matua a Kawiti. I rongo i tnei o aku tuahine e krero ana mna. In the battles of Ngpuhi the remains, the bones were placed in waka at Ompere. The battles between the hap from the times of Tamati Waka, Nene, Patuone and my ancestor, Hone Heke, and my ancestor, Kawiti. Te Waka o Mataatua, kotahi ana waka ku, te tangata a Toroa, tana teina a Puhi, kua hoki mai an ki a Puhi. I whakakohatutia t waka I roto I te awa o Tkau e kore e taea a Ngti Awa te hari i t rtou waka. Mehemea e kaha ana rtou karakia erangi kore e kaha ana ng karakia o Ngti Awa tn pea ka hikia, tn pea. Engari kua ngarongaro n momo karakia I a ttou I te ao tawhito. He aha ai? Koinei ttou nei e korero ana m tnei kawenata te Whakaputanga. The Waka Mataatua, another of my waka, and Toroa, the captain and his younger sibling, Puhi. It was fossilised in the Tkau River, Ngti Awa cannot come and get their waka now. If their incantations are strong enough, if the incantations of Ngti Awa are strong enough, perhaps they may be able to float the waka. But we have lost those ancient incantations. So we are here today to speak of such covenants as He Whakaputanga. A Mataatuam, ko Mmari, ko Ruanui, ko Kurahaupo an tr an o ng waka te Phurirangi. Ka tae atu taku whakapapa ki tnei o ng roia o konei a Annette Sykes a Te Arawa waka. i hoki mai taku tupuna whaea he kotiro mai i ng pakanga o Hongi Hika, i tae mai ki roto o Paihia ka noho ai ki reira, i moe i ttahi Pkeh, n ko taua Pkeh he tupuna ki taku tuahine nei n. He blonde k ana huruhuru, he puru k na kanohi, ko t Joyce. Engari i moe an tear, t ttou nei whaea ki Te Heipounamu, ki tana tane tuarua a Charles Cook kei roto o Mangamuka te nuinga o r kuku, kei roto o Kerikeri ka kite ai i a Henare Kingi ki knei, e noho ana i roto rtou. N reira kei a rtou ng kanohi kirni, kei taku tuahine ng kanohi puru. N, aroha mai e Hone Harawira, kua mukua te m ki roto i aku toto, n te moe tahi ki ng Pkeh. Ehara r he krero noa iho nei hei pukuriri ki ahau. N ka tae mai ki te tangata e t nei. Mataatua, Mmari and Runui, Kurahaupo is also another waka and the captain, Phurihanga. My whakapapa includes Annette Sykes, the good Annette Sykes of Te Arawa. My ancestress returned after the wars of Hika, Hongi Hika and returned to Paihia and she lived there and married a Pkeh and that Pkeh is an ancestor of my sister, he was the blond one and blue eyes. That is the Joyce whnau. Then she married again to Charles Cook. They are in Kerikeri and I see Henare Kingi here. They have the green eyes and my sister has the blue eyes. So I apologise to

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Hone Harawira, but I have washed away the white in my blood. Just a light aside, Hone, please dont get angry at me. RT HAKA 5 Kia ora ku tamaiti, ko n ng uri o aua waka he kanohi puru, he kanohi kirini, me te huatanga miki o ng huruhuru. Kore i tino tata ki te blond engari e tata ana, kore e pnei ki taku tuahine nei. Trans 10 These are the kin, the descendants of those waka I mentioned, blue eyes, green eyes and a mixture of hair, kind of blond, mousy blond maybe, not like my kin here, true blond. N reira e ttou m, te whare tapu o Ngpuhinuitonu, te whare o ng hap o Ngpuhi maranga mai, maranga mai. Maranga mai i roto o tnei tmomo hua ka hoki aku mahara ki te kawenata e takoto mai n i runga i t tpu r. i tr rautau te rautau o te 20, i reira ng krero o taku tpuna matua a Hori Tane e krero ana i tnei w tonu mehemea ka hoki ai ttou ki aua w ttahi taha o t kawenata ppa kei roto i te reo Pkeh, te reo Pkeh i hahou ai ttahi tangata i roto o te Tiriti o Waitangi i runga i te kohatu. Ko te reo Mori te taha, ahakoa kua rerek tahi pnei i a Mike Laws ka taka ng h kei reira tonu taua kupu te whenua. Arise the house of Ngpuhi, arise. As my memories flood back to the covenant, in the 20th century Hori Tane, my ancestors words and writings were there and he was debating whether we should return to those times and it is in the English language and on that stone at Waitangi. Mori language is on one side. Although some dialects drop the h sound, it is still there. N reira ko taku paparahi te mea hanga i toku whare a Papatnuku, te paparahi ko ng maunga, ng poupou o Ranginui e titiro ana i te tuanui o [indistinct 0:14:08.0] kei reiro ng krero. N, ka hoki au ki taku maunga i reira aku tuahine e krero ana ki a Rakaumangamanga. Ko Rakaumangamanga ki Te Matak ki te Tokerau, me ng hap Patu Keha, Ngti Wai, Pare Raumati, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Torino, koina ttahi o ng kuaha o te rwhiti kua puawai. Kua twheratia. E mihi aroha ana ki ng whanaunga o ng hap o Ngpuhinuitonu, kua roa k t tatou nei krero, t tatou nei whakaaro, t ttou nei rongo ki nei tmomo krero. Haere ttou i te r ki te whakanui i te r o te 6 1840 ia tau, ia tau, ka kite ai ttou ng pakanga o ttou nei whanaunga Mori ki ttou nei whanaunga Mori, ng Pkeh kei reira me ng p, me ng kaipuke nui rawa n p ki runga. Ki taku karanga matua tupuna a Hone Heke Pkai Matarahurahu, Ngti Rhiri, Ngi Tawake, Ngti Tautahi, nna i turakina ng pou kara o te British ehara kotahi anake te w e wh k. Ki taku karanga matua tupuna a Kawiti ki a Ngti Hine, i reira k ia hei tuara hei pou, hei kaitautoko. i hoatu e ia ttahi mere pounamu e takahia ana i roto i te tutae tangata, he tikanga kei roto i tr tmomo takahi o te mere pounamu, he tikanga kei roto. Ko wai au?

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My house is constructed with Ranginui above and Papa-t--nuku as the floor and the mountains are the pillars. I return to my mountain where my sisters were referring to Rakaumangamanga. Rkaumangamanga and to Tokerau and the hap therein, Patu Keha, Ngti Wai, Pare Raumati, Ngti Rehia, Ngti Torino, that is the one of the eastern doorways that has been opened and I extend my love to the kin of Ngpuhi-nui-tonu for so long have we sat to discuss and debate these issues and each year in 1840 we see the strife between our Mori kin against our other Mori kin and against the Pahekas, all watched over by the navy with their guns as Hone Heke Pokai said, of Matarahurahu, Ngi Tawake and other hap, he felled the flag post at Kororareka, not one time but four times. To my ancestor, Kawiti and Ngti Hine, who was there as support, as pillar and as back-up, he gave a mere that was smeared in faeces and there was a message implicit within that mere. There is a message and a story. I pakanga ai rtou me te p me te toki, a muri k nei mai ko te pene me te tuhituhi, ko Hone Heke an tr I ako nei ia mai a Wiremu Wiremu, ako ia ki te reo Pkeh. I taua w ka hoki ng tuhituhi I tuhituhia e ia ki a Kawana Karei, kei roto i te whare kohikohi pukapuka i Pneke r tmomo tuhituhi. i pakanga rtou, i tuku atu te aroha ki aku iti, ki aku rahi te whare tapu o Ngti Kawa, te whare tapu o Ngti Rhiri. Ka tautoko au I ng krero kia kotahi te hoe o tnei waka o ttou. They fought with guns and hatchets and then later with the pen and the words of writing and Hone Heke was also involved in those wars. He was taught by William Williams to speak and write English and he entered into correspondence with Governor Gray and those are in the library at Wellington and he extended his love to Whare Tapu of Ngti Rhiri and I support and endorse the words that there be one beat and one rhythm in rowing this waka. Ki taku whanaunga a Kingi Taurua, ki a Maryanne, ki a Marsha ng krero I puta mai inanahi nei ka rongo ng werawera o tnei o ttou o knei, me taku k ki a ia, he tikanga o aua w. Mori me rtou nei tikanga tturu Mori, kore i k atu, kore i k atu. i haere mai te kupu Pkeh i roto o aua tau mai i te 1835 i aua w i tae mai te reo Pkeh, ahakoa ka rongohia engari kore te reo tika. Ko ng mauhere o Ahitereiria ng mea e mau ana, ko ng mea patu tohor, ko ng mea patu kekeno, te reo e mau ana, koina ka puta te reo pihikete i roto o mtou nei tpuna whaea i haere i te aha ng wera nanakia, i haere ki te t mai rtou nei hua kia noho i roto i te tane me tangata. Kei konei ttahi kupu engari e kore au e mahi I tr kupu, n reira ka kite au I taku whaea a Whina I knei I te w I mutung ahau I knei koia te mea e takoto mai ana. To my kin, Kngi Taurua and Maryanne and Marsha and their evidence they proffered today and I saw the sweat coming from the Crown team and I say those were the customs of those days. Mori and their customs, real Mori, unvarnished Mori. The Pkeh word in those days came from 1835, in those times the English language came, although they had heard the language, they only heard the rude language of the whalers and the escaped prisoners and the sealers with their rude language and their base language. It was those types of people who 143

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tempted our women in union. There is a term for those people, those sailors and stuff, but I will not mention it. The last time I was here it was Whina who was lying in state in this marae. 5 N reira ka haere tonu ahakoa phea t ttou nei kori, aku krero me whakakotahi te hakaaro o te teina me te tuakana i raro o te whakaaro kotahi. He taniwha tnei kore ng taniwha tino pai, he taniwha tnei mehemea ka waimaria ka rangimaria tnei taniwha ka waimaria ki roto o ttou o Ngpuhi nei ki Rakaumangamanga, ki motu Kokako, ki Tokerau ka huri taku titiro ki te tonga, ka hoki taku titiro ki ng maunga o Pokenui ki te tonga ka kake au m runga taku manu o taku tupuna a Ueoneone m runga tana Hokio ka tau taku manu ki runga o te maunga, taku maunga tupuna I paupau ai te whenua ki a rua ng pou I roto o tana wharenui. An te ingoa o taku maunga Pouerua, Pouerua. Although no matter what we do, how much we jump up and down, how sweet and pleasant it is to see the brethren in unity. This is an evil taniwha that if we are fortunate there will be peace from this taniwha to us of Ngpuhi from Rakaumangamanga to Motu Kokako to Tokerau and gazing to the south, to the mountains of Pukenui in the south and I ascend my bird and my ancestor, Ueoneone upon his bird, the Hokioi and it lands on the mountain, my ancestral mountain. The name of my mountain, Pouerua, signifying the two pillars of the mountain. I roto o Pouerua ko te tupuna o Tahuhunui o te Rangi, mai I tr o ng maunga a Manaia, Manaia Tangata a Ng Wai, ka haere tr tupuna o mtou ka nohaina a Pouerua. Nna taua ingoa r I tmata a Pouerua, I ng w o mua ko Pukenui. Kore i tino rerek atu tr Pukenui I te Pukenui I roto o te anga, kore I rerek. Ki raro o nei rekereke ko te awa a Waiaruhe. In Pouerua the ancestor, Tahuhu-nui-o-te-Rangi, from the mountain, Manaia, Manaia Tangata, Ngti Wai area and that ancestor of ours went and occupied Pouerua and he gave that name to the mountain, Pouerua. Before that it was named Pukenui. Pukenui is somewhat similar to the other Pukenui up north here. At the base of the mountain is the river, Waiaruhe. E te Taraipiunara te tikanga o taku krero I whakaaro ake au I roto o Waitangi, Te T Waitangi, n reira aku whakaaro ka huri ki reira, ka tohu ki reira. Taku Pouerua kei kn, te awa kei raro o na rekereke ko Waiaruhe. Tmata taua awa I raro o ng riu pukepuke I roto o Kaikohekohe, I roto I te ngwha Parahirahi. Kei kn te pakanganui I riro mai te Karauna 5,917 heketa, he krero an tr. Members of the Tribunal, the focus of my evidence I thought at the time we were at Te Tii tea and so I turned the focus of my krero to Pouerua and the river Waiaruhe is at the base and that river commences in the valleys and hillocks of the Kaikohe region and in Ngwh and Parahirahi. There was the great battle there, whence the Crown attained 5,977 hectares, but that is another story.

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A Waiaruhe ka uru mai ki te whenua a Pkaraka ki Maunga Turoto ki taea mai I Oromahoe. Te ingoa o Oromahoe he tirak ng roi, ng kawa n te whare o Urekoatanui. N roi e tika ana, he koroi I whatiwhati taiaha kei te taha o te awa o Kuparu. He tuawhenua, he hei puhi, he tukuna n te wai hue, he miro rkau I reira t ana n taua miro taua ingoa r. N, I roto tr krero te waihue koina te hoa rangatira a Marupo. Ka whnau mai tana kotiro a Makere, ka moe a Makere te Pkeh I te tuatahi, e kia nei ko Captain Hart. Kore he whanaunga ki a Minto, kore. Engari kei reira te whakaaro. N ka heke mai t rtou nei tamaiti, te tupuna papa a Te Tane Haratua. Ka riro mai te ingoa o tana tamaiti a Hori Tane, n te tangata tamaiti kei a ia te teina ingoa r o Poutawera, Hori Poutawera Tane. N ka riro mai te toenga o te ingoa, te mea o mua mai o te ingoa, Te Tane Haratua ka waiho tr m te whnau o ng Tane nei o roto o Oromahoe. Waiaruhe flows through Pakaraka to Maungaturoto and unto Oromahoe. Oromahoe from the house of Urekoatanui and on this side of the river is the lands that have been ceded by Te Waihue. There were miro trees standing there and that is where the name emanates. In that word Waihue was the friend of Marupo and when the child, Mkere, was born, Mkere married firstly a Pkeh, Captain Hart. No connection to John Minto, but they had the same thoughts and their child, our ancestor, Te Tne Haratua. The name of his child, Hori Tane, I have given it to my boy, Hori Poutawera Tane and the first part of the name, Tane, I leave as a remembrance for the whnau Tane of Oromahoe. N te Kuparu r he toka tuna I runga I te awa o te Waiaruhe. Taku whanaunga a Eruera I tae mai I te rangi nei, e mhio ana r ki te toka tuna. He purunga tuna ki t Pita Apiata, koina ng purunga tuna. Ka rere tonu taku awa ka rere ki te awa o Manaia, mehemea ka haere koe kei hea tr awa o Manaia e kore koe e kitea, n te mea te ingoa e tare mai inaianei, ka tautoko te krero kaua e tni o ttou nei ingoa, ko Oromahue Creek. Now, Kuparu that Kuparu is a rock that is home to eels. Eruera, my kin, did not come but they understand that story, and thats where Pita Apiata used to get his eels. Waiaruhe River flows onto the Manaia River. You will not see that river, Manaia, because the name now of that river is Oromahoe Creek. Te awa mai te pae maunga o Oromahoe ki Whangae ki Otao e noho ai ng whnau o Ngti Kawa me Ngti Rhiri. E kore au e mea atu n Waitangi, n Oromahoe. Kotahi an te whnau o Ngti Rhiri, kotahi an te whnau o Ngti Kawa kore e noho taone ana pn I tahi o tatou, ka mea r te nuinga o te taone Auckland Big New City, kao. Then the mountain, Oromahoe at Whangae at Otao and the families of Ngti Kawa and Ngti Rhiri reside there. I do not say they are from Waitangi or from Oromahoe. Ngti Rhiri is one family. Ngti Kawa is one family. They do not live in town. DISCUSSION

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Aroha mai te nuing o aku krero kei roto I ng huatanga o te reo, te reo tturu n te mea kua rongo au te reo Pkeh mai I taku haerenga mai I tnei rangi te tikanga o ttahi o aku krero e p ana ki te mtauranga Mori, koina ka noho au te nuinga o aku krero I roto i te reo Mori, te reo e ngaro nei pnei I te moe a T Kingi Ihaka, ngaro noa, ngaro noa, ngaro noa. Ka rongo te nuinga o ng krero e puta mai ana I tnei whakaminenga o te raupatu I roto ng huatanga ko taku reo. E mamae kaha ana taku wairua me taku ngkau o taku nei reo rangatira n te mea he kaiako k au I roto I ng kura, koina ka tukua mai taku rangatira, taku boss, kia haere mai au ki te noho mai whakapnui atu aku krero. He krero m ng kireme 1665, Ngti Rhiri me Ngti Kawa. Most of my evidence is within the Mori language. I have heard the Pkeh language being used as a vehicle of discourse, a part of my evidence pertains to Matauranga Mori and most of my evidence will be in the Mori language, the language that is being lost to the world and so one of the things that is being assailed is my language. Because I am a teacher in a school, my boss has allowed me to come to offer evidence to the Tribunal today. Ka moe a Taiheke ka puta te teina o Paka, ka moe a Hinepapa mai a Kawera ko Taiheke, ko Whautere, I moe a Taimania. Mai a Paka me Hinepapa ko Kawhi, ko Hikiro. Mai a Taimania rua ko Tuaho me Opangaiti. Mai a Kawhi rua ko Hikiro ko Ahuaiti me Rhiri. Mehemea ka ptai n hea ake au, mehemea n Rhiri ae tika, engari kaua e wareware ki tana hoa rangatira a Ahuaiti. We are speaking of Kawa, who married Taiheke and begat Paka, who married Hinepapa, Kawera descended to Taiheke, to Whautere, who married Taimania. From Paka and Hinepapa we have Kawhi and Hikiro. From Taimania and Tahuao and Opangaiti. From Kawhi and Hikura is Ahuaiti and Rhiri. And if there are any questions where I am from, I say I am of Rhiri, but lest we forget his partner, Ahuaiti. T rua nei tamaiti ko Uenuku-kuare koina ka kuare au ki te taima a te tiato. N te kuare tr o t ttou nei tupuna ki ng karakia me ng tikanga o tana matua, he aha ai, n te mea I noho wehewehe I runga Pouerua. Mai a Tahuao rua ko Opangiti ko Kareariki, ka moe a Uenukukuare. Koina te tamaiti tuatahi a Rhiri rua ko Ahuaiti. Their child, Uenuku-kuare, that is why Im ignorant of the time constraints, because of the ignorance of that ancestor to the prayers of his father. Why? Because they were separated in their living on Pouerua. From Tahuao and Opangaiti was Kareariki who married Uenuku-kuare. That is the first child of Rhiri and Ahuaiti. Mai I tr moenga a Kareariki rua ko Uenuku-Kuare ka puta mai ko t rtou nei ktiro a Maikuku, , ka rongo au ttou n krero e hngai ana ki a Maikuku, ka tautoko au I r krero. E tangi ana te Ngkahi, e tangi ana te wai, koina ka Waitangi ai I roto I r momo krero. ko te tangi tr o ng taniwha, ng kaitiaki o Maikuku I tukua te mana tapu kia rere I ttahi nanakia tangata a Huatakangaroa, koina ka mau te kahu o Ngti Kahu. E mini ana Ngpuhi ki te homai ttehi kahu ki ahau, ka aha r. 146

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From that union they begat their daughter, Maikuku, and we heard the stories pertaining to Maikuku and I support those evidence. The Ngakahi weeps, the waters weep and that is why we have the name Waitangi. The lamentations of the taniwha, the guardians of Maikuku who released her tapu to a deceptive person, Takangaroa, and so I wear the mantle of Ngti Kahu because Ngpuhi would not give me a vest. Just joking. Ng oriori o ng taniwha o Maikuku I t mai tnei rangatira a Huatakangaroa, ng uri o Hua, mai a Tangaroa tae noa ki te wahap o Waitangi koina I ahu mai te ingoa o Waitangi, ko ng roimata ng reo o aua taniwha n Ngakahi e au tonu ana mai taua w tatu mai ki tnei w. Engari n ka rongo au te aue he paruparu ana ng wai o reira, kua tutae katoa. Huatakangaroa and the descendants of Hua from Tangaroa unto the mouth of the Waitangi, that is where the name came, The tears of the Taniwha, the Ngakahi that are still crying unto this day. But they are crying because of the pollution of the waters. Koia tn te kinga a Ruarangi, I noho ai t ttou nei whaea a Ahuaiti ki knei k an te kinga o te anga o Maikuku. E t mai nei te whare kua ingoatia Te Treaty Grounds of Waitangi. Ttahi atu o ng whare he hotera. E maha nei ingoa o te whaea tupuna n runga I ttahi whare, Te Whare Tiko. N te w, I aua w koina tr October 2008. nei whenua katoa he golf course, the Waitangi Forrest. Ttahi puke kei muri ki runga I taua whenua e kia nei Mount Bledisloe. Nna aua whenua r I hoatu ki a ia, nna tana krero I whakahokia mai ki a wai? N wai i whakahokia mai ki te whnau o Ngti Rhiri, o Ngti Kawa, Ngti Kura, rawa, kihai. That is the home of Ruarangi where the mother of Ahuaiti resided, and that is where the cave of Maikuku can be found, where The Treaty grounds house stands at Waitangi. Another house there is a hotel and one of our tupuna call that hotel Te Whare Tiko because in those times all these lands have now been turned into a golf course and forest, there is a hill on that land called Mount Bledisloe. Those lands were given to him and he returned those lands according to him. But to who, who did he return them to? No one returned them to the whnau of Ngti Rhiri, of Ngti Kawa and Ngti Kura. No one, no one. N ka hoki, ka riro I a James Busby mai I te tau 1833 I roto I te rima tau ka riro mai 3,000 heka I mua o tana hakinga, before he got the sack. Ka porangi tr tangata, ki te tt I ng whenua o aku mtua tupuna, ka mutu ka riro mai ia a ia 7,210 heka ki Waitangi. Te toenga I roto I te TV3 kei kn he toenga, kei a Ngti Rhiri te mana whenua engari kaua ttou e pakanga m tr e Pita. From 1833 James Busby in five years had a quiet 3,000 acres. He became mad and he was indeed crazy to tamper with the lands of my ancestors. He eventually attained 7,200 acres at Waitangi and the remainder of the lands in TB3 is there. Ngti Rahiri is the mana whenua, but let us not fight over that, Pita.

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Ka waiho nei nawe ki knei m tnei w. Te mataamua kua krero katoa nei. Ka huri au ki taku maunga, te maunga a Pouerua tana moko ko Ahuaiti i noho ai ki kn te awa o Waiaruhe tmata mai te paparahi a Prahirahi ng riu mai i ng rekereke e whangai ana tnei awa a Waiaruhe, ka heke mai ki te ngwha, ka heke mai ki Ohaewai, ka heke mai ki Titirangi, ka heke mai ki Pkaraka, ka p atu ki Takiura kei reira ng kiwi o ttou nei mtua tpuna I haere ki nga pakanga. Tn pea m te mana te take, engari I taku whakaaro ehara ko tr. We leave these concerns here for now. I have spoken of the elders. I turn now to my mountain, Pouerua. His moko is Ahuati, who resided there at Waiaruhe River and commences at Parahirahi at the flats and through the valleys and recesses that feed the Waiaruhe until it reaches Ngwh and Ohaeawai and unto Titirangi and unto Pakaraka and breaks out at Umutakiura and there are the bones of our ancestors who went to the wars and the battles. Perhaps for mana, but in my opinion it was not for that. E pnei ana I ng ppa pnei. Te taha ng kupapa ng mea I noho ki te taha o te Kooti Whero I ng hoia I taua w. Ko Umutakiura he whi tapu tae atu ki P Karaka, ko Kaingaroa, Kaingarapa. Te tikanga kei reira taku tupuna a Hone Heke engari taku whakapae pai kua riro ng kiwi me ng taonga o tr tpuna ku ki whi k. It is like the papers that we read here. On one side was the kupapa, the loyalists, those who sat with the red coats and fought with the red coats and the soldiers of the time. Umutakiura is a sacred place, the same as Pakaraka and Kaingaroa and Kaingarapa. My ancestor, Hone Heke, lies there, but I reckon that the remains of Hone Heke have been taken to a better place. Ka hono te awa ki Titirangi ko Puketotara, ko Patukaue, I keria te awa o Puketotara te taha o te soda springs, ka hakamarokehia tr waipuna hora. Kua tukinotia te nuinga o ttou nei whenua I a Tauiwi, I a Transit Roads te kaha o te tkino, inaianei rtou kua tkino te huarahi e kake ana ki Te Rewa Bulls Gorge. Kua haere k ng krero ki reira, ka hono mai ki Manaia ki tnei Oromahoe ka hono mai o ttou nei hoea mai Te Hoko Whiti a Tu te 28, ng Gum Diggers, ng Keri Kapia. Taku matua, kotahi o aku tuahine te papa o aku tuahine I haere ki aua pakanga. Te nuinga o ttou, o rtou nei matua I raro o tenei tuanui I haere o rtou nei matua ki r pakanga. Ka hoki mai rtou te Tari Mori paku awhi I a rtou I hoki mai I aua pakanga r, kore e taea e rtou te mahi tika o rtou nei whenua, I tohaina m rtou, he Dairy Farm he Mirka Ktt Kau. Ka mutu ka rhuitia, ka kohikohihia r whenua ka whakamahia I te tau 1990 ka tmata te Oromahoe Trust, e ora tonu ana tr Oromahoe Trust. The river joins Titirangi at Puketotara, Patukaue and the river at Puketotara was dug up next to the soda springs and that spring was made to dry up. Most of our lands have been tampered with by Pakeha, by transit roads. They are really bad and now they are starting to debase the lands for the roads at Bulls Gorge and then coming to Manaia to Oromahoe and when our soldiers returned from the second world war, 148

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the gum diggers, my father and the father of one of my cousins went to those wars. Most of our elders went to war. On their return the Department of Maori Affairs gave them small assistance on their return from fighting overseas. They could not adequately work their lands, the lands that was apportioned to the dairy farms. In the end, those lands were gathered up and then in 1990 the Oromahoe Trust commenced and still goes today. Ka hono taku awa ki Waitangi I Puketonga. Te awa o Waitangi I puta mai I Ompere, pahure atu Pukenui I roto o Rawhitiroa, pahure atu Parawhenua, pahure atu Tauwhara, tau mai ki Puketonga ka hono atu te Waitanga Awa me Te Waiaruhe, n kua haere tahi e rere aua awa r Wai a Whriki ng pakanga me Ngti Miro, pakanga a Ngti Rangi, Ngti Rhiri, Ngti Kawa i aua pakanga. Korekore katoa a ttou nei rangatira tupuna I aua w. E kitea ana tn mokemoke tonu ana I tnei rangi. My river hooks in at Waitangi. Waitangi River emanates from Ompere unto Pukenui, Rawhitiroa and flows onto Parawhenua and flowing onward to Tauwhara and unto Puketono where it joins Waitangi River and the Waiaruhe River and the water flows onward with the Waiawhariki where the battle against Ngti Miro and Ngti Rangi, Ngti Rhiri, Ngti Kawa and those battles and today our ancestors are still mournful for their rivers. Ka tau tonu taku haere, ka kau mai ki te wahirere e kia nei ko Haruru, mai I a Haruru ko te wahap o Waitangi, Te Tii Waitangi. Mai te wahap o Te Tii Waitangi ka makere mai ki te anga o Maikuku, a Ruarangi, Motu Maire, Niho Nui, Motu Aro, Motu Roa. Koina ng moutere kei reira. I carry on to the falls known as Haruru Falls. From Haruru Falls we go onto Te Tii and to the harbour and then past the cave of Maikuku, past Huarangi, Motumairi, Nihonui and Motuaro, Moturoa. Those islands are there.

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Ka hoki au ki tnei te WAI 1060. N ko au te kaikrero e rongo nei koutou, koina kei raro o ng marumaru o te kereme n te mea taku iwi ko Ngpuhi e p ana ki te kereme WAI 1060 me ng mahi hokohoko a Busby m. Mai i knei ka whakatakoto tnei o ng krero Now returning to Wai 1060. I am one of the claimants for that. 1060 pertains to the sales of Busby - - Between the years 1834 and 1839 James Busby acquired ... RENATA TANE CONTINUES TO READ TO HIS BRIEF DISCUSSION RT

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E te Taraipiunara arohamai, mhio ana ttou te huatanga o Ngpuhi Kowhaurau, koina ttahi o ng rau. He hakarpopotia ana aku krero engari te ia o te ngako o aku krero tn pea kore e puta. I tmata te rere o taku awa I roto o tr rere ka aukati taku awa a Waiaruhe I raro o te rekereke o Pouerua, o Pukenui, a Ngti Hine mhio ana au I tautoko 149

au i tr krero mai tnei o ttou nei tuahine, mea ana au ki a koe e Pita, waiho tr ki te taha. Kei roto ahau I koutou nei ringa. Trans 5 Apologies, Tribunal. We know all about Ngpuhi Kowhaorau. But the kernel, the focus of my evidence perhaps may not even be heard. I commence with my river and the waters that flow and in that flow of my river, Waiaruhe, from the base of Pouerua and Pukenui, my river was stopped. I endorsed Ngti Hines words and evidence and I say to you, Pita, leave that to the side. I am in your hands, Tribunal. Mehemea ka hoki ki te Whakaputanga me te Tiriti ka tmata i reira. 10 RT If we return to the Whakaputanga and the treaty, paragraph 25. There is a dam on my awa. Tn pea ka waipuketia e ttou. mehemea kei te titiro ki ng tau I tae mai te Pkeh ki tnei whenua mai ai Tasman kua tmata te hakaaro o te Colonisation me te discover. Ehara I a Tasman I discover I tnei whenua o ttou a Aotearoa. Engari I mau mai e rtou rtou nei huatanga o te Colonisation, ae tika. Mehemea ehara ko ia ko te Dutch, te Tiati, ko ng tametame o Ingarangi, mehe ehara ko ng tametame a Ingarangi ko ng tangata o Ww k, I rongo ai ttou I r krero. Te haerenga atu a Hone ki Ingarangi ka kite I te hua o King George IV me na hwene. Ka mhio k ia te hua o ng missionaries, ka mhio ki te rongopai me te noi ki te atua Pkeh. At the time when the Pkeh arrived on these lands from the time of Tasman, the thoughts of colonisation started to be aired. It was not Tasman who discovered Aotearoa. But they brought their thoughts and the world conquest view, he was a Dutchman and the British if not the British, then it would be the French. We heard all those words. When Hone went to England he saw how King George operated and his comments and he knew what missionaries was about, he knew about the bible and knew about the Pkeh god. Mea ana au te atua Pkeh me te mea an hoki ki roto I tr krero kaua e p raruraru mai ki tr krero, ka ttoro atu te ringa tawhai ki a rtou ki ng hakaaro I kite mrika I te noho I haere ia ki Cambridge University te aha ai? Ki te hakamahi I ttahi pukapuka kupu me Campbell, engari I te w kore ia e mahi ana te titiro ana ki ng pikitia o ng pukapuka pakanga, ka mhio ia te huatanga o te pakanga, te mau I ng kkhu rino kia kaua e te mat e ki tana tinana Mori. Mai Poihakena ka hokohoko ia te katoa o na taonga i riro mai i a Tauiwi I roto Ingarangi, ka waihotia ko te huti rino hei kaitiaki m tana tinana. I ask that the churches not be offended by my statements and he grasped those knowledge. He went to Cambridge University and where he helped with candour to write the first Mori language dictionary and then he was also a keen studier of the wars of the European wars and he knew about wearing armour to prevent bullets. From Sydney he purchased his firearms, he sold his gifts given to him from England and he sold them in Sydney, except for this coat of arms, suit of arms.

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Ka mutu te taenga mai o te Mihingare ttahi Frenchman De Thierry n te tangata Ww I hakahorohoro ng piha o Ingarangi kia tere horo te ppa o te Whakaputanga. I mhiotia nei tangata ng piha o t rtou nei kaupapa kia kaua a Ww e whai whi atu kia riro I a rtou ttahi pihi whenua I roto I Aotearoa. When the settlers came, De Thierry came, he was a Frenchman and the officials were concerned because of the coming of the French and the British officials were determined that the French not receive a piece of this land for themselves.

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There are two channels of thought for Te Whakaputanga, ko ng tangata o te Karauna, ko ng tngata pnei I a James Busby, Henry Williams, Missionary, George Clarke, James Clindon me Gilbert Mair nei n I mhio ki te reo Mori. Ko Tawa tona ingoa Mori. The Crown people, and people like James Busby, Henry Williams, Gilbert Mair was fluent in the Mori language. His name was Tawa. RT Now I want to read this script I had taken from one of my grandfathers books, based on the Treaty, Te Whakaputanga. I just want to read the first paragraph. The Declaration of Independence had provided for a congress at Waitangi to legislate for the Maori state and it was to Waitangi that the chiefs were summoned to discuss the question of accepting British over lordship. If we translate that kupu we come up with all sorts. Koin tahi ng kupu we come up with all sorts, koin tahi o ng kupu I mhiotia e au, e kore e taea e Busby rua ko Henry ki te whakamori. Those are some of the words that I know that Busby or Henry Williams could render into the Mori language. Edwards, son of Henry Williams - The Treaty itself was prepared by Mr Busby, the resident and was translated into Mori by Edward Williams he tamaiti tr n Henare, the son of the veteran missionary the son of the veteran missionary. And I think Buick was the Governor General at the time, gives a literal translation of the Mori version into English of a kind, of a kind, which shows the difficulties of translating the pompous phraseology of official documents into even poetic Mori. N ka waiho tr ki kon ka hoki au ki taku ppa. Ka mutu r o rtou haere ki Ingarangi hoki mai pnei I a Hongi Hika, a Waikato, r Mori I muri mai o rua ka miharo ki te mana, ki te tino rangatiratanga me r momo poko. Kore te poko ki roto I tr ppa nei n, te poko e krero ana m ttou te matenga, te matenga koira te whi tino tapu tapu tapu rawa atu I runga I te tangata. Kia ora tn I roto I tn whakaaro a Mori m, kua pokotia tn kawenata tn pea he tapu kei reira. Turning now to my paper. After going to England people such as Hone Heke and Waikato returned home and they were full of awe and marvelled. The upuko, the head I speak of because the head is the most 151

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sacred part of the person and if in their thinking they had likened it to a head of a person, then that signifies how tapu they thought that compact was. 5 M rtou te pono me te tika e ngkaunui nei matua tpuna e mahi tika ana. Para tika ana tnei huarahi. Kua hh katoa nei rangatira Taipure ki te tkinotanga o rtou wahine, koina te reo pihikete, te kaha mrikarika o ng tngata mauhere mai I a Poihakena. Ko tahi kua whai pakihi ka rongo au I ttahi o aku tuahine I knei I roto o Paihia, I roto o Kororareka, I roto o Waitangi ki te hokohoko korari, kapea, rkau kauri me r tmomo mea kua tmata te hoko haehae o rtou o te kaha o te Mori te mahi moni hei oranga pea m rtou. In their truth and honesty they followed this path. Although they had become tired of the oppressions upon their women and the despicable nature of the ex-prisoners from Sydney, some had established businesses. I heard one of my kin say in Paihia and Kororareka and Waitangi, they established businesses to sell kauri, to sell alcohol and the Mori was successful in commercial ventures. N, ka huri au ki Te Tiriti, whrangi 33.11, ka pnui au te tmatatanga o tnei ppa I roto I te reo Mori. Ko Wikitoria te Kuini o Ingarangi I tna mahara tawhai ki ng rangatira me ng hap o Niu Tirini, I tana hiahia hoki kia tohungia ki a rtou rtou rangatiratanga me rtou whenua, , kia mau tonu hoki ki a rtou. Kua whakaaro ia he mea tika kia tuku mai ttahi ki ng rangatira hei kai whakarite ki ng tangata Mori o tnei whenua o Niu Tireni. Kia whakaaetia ng rangatira Mori te kawenata o te Kuini ki ng whi katoa o te whenua me ng motu, , kei raro r huatanga o te Kwanatanga. Turning now to The Treaty of Waitangi, I will read the first part in Maori. Queen Victoria is the Queen of England. In her consideration to the chiefs of New Zealand in her desire that they retain their rangatiratanga and their lands, be held by them and she has considered that she send an official to this land of New Zealand and that the chiefs may agree to this covenant with the Queen, that it cover all parts of the land and the islands under the government. Ka waiho tr krero ki reira, ka huri au, section 33, page 11. 35 RT I leave that there and turning now - - The Treaty of Waitangi purports to be an instrument by which

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RENATA TANE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF was not a translation of the official version sent to England. RT 40 Ko tnei te Tiriti tturu, te Tiriti Mori. E tika ana, e hakapono ana ng mtua tpuna o aua w ng ppa o muri iho tnei I raweketia I ng pononga o te Karauna. Ki ahau r I knei te pono o ng mtua tpuna, ka mutu kei kn ng waka o ng p nunui rawa atu e hakatautoko I rtou nei mana o te mana o Hobson me ana kaimahi o te Karauna. Koinei te HMS active kei reira kaipuke nui. Ki aku hakaaro I aua w 152

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mehemea kore a Hone Heke, a Marup I haina ka patua tkinotia te marea I roto Waitangi me rtou waka nunui me ng p nunui. Koin ka puta mai te krero I roto o ng pukapuka htori he rebel k taku tpuna matua a Hone Heke. Engari rawa tr krero I tae atu ki taku pnuitanga a Kawiti, kihai. He tangata pai k ia engari I haere tahi r, me tahi atu, ki aku hakaaro I hanga horohoro te ppa Whakaputanga engari aua ake. This is the real Treaty, the Mori version. Our ancestors agreed that the papers that came after this were tampered with by the officials of the Crown. To me, this is where the belief of the ancestors and all the time they were under the cannons of the sailing ships of England while Hobson and his officials carried out their work. Ships such as the HMS Active. In my opinion, if Hone Heke and Marupo had not signed the people who had gathered at Waitangi would have been obliterated. That is why you hear in the histories that Hone Heke was a rebel. But in terms of Kawiti, according to the records, Kawiti was a good man, although they fought the same fight. In my opinion, the drafts were made too quickly. RT And on reflection on the understanding of point 40 Ill read 39. Ka hoki ki ng krero a Hongi mua mai tna matenga ...

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RENATA TANE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF Trans RT Returning to Hones quote. Hone spoke at his deathbed Beware of Be very wary of people who read the red coat. Ko ng hoia r. M taua ppa ka hohou te rongo o te rangimarie te noho, ka puta te krero a Kawana Hobson he iwi tahi ttou, me te whakapkeh o taua a Hone Heke I mea kia tika ai t krero he iwi kotahi ttou, koina te tikanga o t krero engari kore I tika. From one we have we are one people, to one we are a united people. I rongo koe te huatanga nei, we are still note united. We are a united people. On reflection, the understanding was made clear to the Crown

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RENATA TANE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF have different disguises, and the government are but one of them. Kei ng kanohi te rerektanga o te titiro o ttou ki te Karauna. TH 35 RT e ra tika, pono. I mhio te Karauna i aua ppa Kawenata koi an te tuhituhi an o ttahi, he raruraru kei te mhio a Busby kua mutu tana mahi he British Resident, arch decan Henry Williams kua tukuna ana kara, kua kaha nei hunga te tuhituhi, te rawekeweke whenua I rtou matua tpuna. Koina kihai rtou te Govenor General I tautoko pea I ng w ki muri. Mehemea ki te tika, kei te pai te hakatakoto nei tmomo Kawenata 153

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krero tn pea kua hohoe t ttou nei waka I runga I te rangimarietanga. N te nohonga o te teiteitanga o tnei te Sir me te Lord ka mahi whnui atu kia tau r te whakapapa kia whai whenua, koina t rtou nei hakaaro engari auare ake kua kore take rtou rawa I tahaetia. Kei te pania tonu ttou a Mori m, mai aua w tae noa ki tnei rangi, te kara o te Union Jack kei kn tonu te colonisation. Te hakaititanga, he rite te mtauranga ki ng mangumangu, iwi taketake o whenua k, Awherika me Ahitereiria, he iwi kuare iti noa iho taurekareka, r momo he iwi servants pn ana ttou, pn ana ttou. Trans Different perspective from the Crowns perspective, you can see it in their eyes. The Crown knew in these covenants but the problem was Busby knew he was soon to be finished his job as a resident and Henry Williams, his collar was being taken off him, so they turned to land acquisition. That is why the Governor General did not support. If these covenants had been laid down properly, we would be rowing our waka in peace. So their real goal was the acquisition of land. Mori are still being assailed from those times unto this day by the Union Jack flag, which still denotes colonisation and the belittling of Mori people likening us to the Aboriginals and Africans, that we are just a base people and we are just slaves for other people. That is how they saw us. Kore kau ana kia mana an pr tonu te kara o Niu Tireni, kua ngaro te whenua e kitea e te tupuna a Kupe. Ng krero o ng mtua tpuna kua meinga he Legend, he rite ng Greeks me ng Romans. Te whaea o te motu, aroha mai te whaea a Whina

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The New Zealand flag had not yet come to be. The lands that Kupe had discovered were now lost to them and their stories were now consigned to be mere legends and Whina marched to parliament. Marched to parliament for it and the government of the day gave her a Dame big deal.

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My taokete helped resolve Bastion Point and they knighted him aroha mai tku kotiro. These are classic examples right here on our doorsteps ...

RENATA TANE CONTINUES READING TO HIS BRIEF Treaty grounds, Waitangi golf club, Waitangi forest, Copthorne hotel. 35 RT Trans RT He krero whakamutunga. In conclusion. A comment re the implications of wrongful purchases. One ignored Mori concepts of authority and land and mana and the principle tuku. You wont find it, I have got here so dont hunt for it. Ngti Rahiri = not to expect the sale was one way of permanent transactions where the authority of land would be given up.

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And finally, conclusions; Our key grievances are the ways in which our lands were wrongfully transferred out of hap control, particularly in the time of Busby in the pre-Treaty r: And (2) we welcome Hobson and his authority to our lands, we expected our mana in our lands would continue, we expected to have new opportunities to engage in trade, in sharing of development in our regions in this whenua of Aotearoa. Further, specifics regarding our claim can be found in technical reports. This krero provides a whriki for whatever m ttou m. N reira e ttou m ka huri ake ttou ki te marea, ki a koutou, ko aku whanaunga aroha mai. E tangi ana te ngkau me te wairua ki a ttou, te h o ttou mtua tpuna kia , kia manawanui. Turning now to the house, to my kin. Please extend your love to me. My heart bleeds for us. May the breath of our ancestors come amongst us. Be strong, be steadfast.

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HAKA RT Tnei taonga e hari ana ki Poland ki reira ng iwi whenua kia rongo ai te reo o Ngpuhinuitonu, n reira e te marea, ki a koutou o tpu huri noa tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa, ng ptai. This taonga we take to Poland, to the people of Poland, that they may hear the voice of Ngpuhi-nui-tonu. To all the people, greetings, greetings, thank you very much. Questions please? Ptai, Mr Irwin? Kore kau he ptai, engari i te mihi atu ki a koe e te rangatira. Tnei te mihi ki a koe koutou ko t rp, koutou ko te ope me haka mai nei, n reira tnei te mihi. I do not have questions, but thank you very much, sir. Kia ora. Kore mtou he ptai mai n reira tn koe, , tn koutou. We do not have questions, but thank you very much. Kia ora. Just to counsel while we are waiting for the next person, Ms Hilda Harawira, to come forward, I can indicate at this time that in order to try and move things so that we can hear the people, one option that we could explore, what we are thinking about is having the Friday morning session open for tangatawhenua, so those witnesses who maybe we do not find time for we could have that slot there for them and then Mr Carpenter and Dame Anne Salmond, we think it is important that the people hear their krero. But in terms of questions, those questions would be in writing. So that may be an option for us to explore. But now I hand it over to you, Ms Mangu.

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Kia ora, your Honour me te Taraipiunara tn koutou. E mihi atu ana ki a koe e te rangatira e Renata m tnei huatanga kua p ki mua i a ttou I tnei w, , e kore r e taea te hokia kia whakatikaina engari ko te tmanako kia kore an tnei huatanga e p ki mua a ttou. Tn koe, tn koe m t t rangatira ki mua o te iwi me t krero. Kore taea e mhio me huri au ki hea, engari Greetings your Honour and the Tribunal. Thank you, Renata, for the evidence that you have proffered. Of course, we cannot undo what has been done, but the hope is that we do not suffer this complication again. Thank you for your noble stand and your evidence. I do not know which way I should turn. Your Honour, I do want to seek your assurance that the Tribunal is in control of this process that I am assured that it is a legal process and I will not tolerate any interruption from the audience in any shape or form whilst my client is speaking. Whilst we are on that, your Honour, I will remind everyone that there is a Bill of Rights Act which gives everyone the right to stand and have their say before the Tribunal. On that note, I applaud your provision for more kaikrero to stand up before you on Friday morning. Thank you, sir. Now, I would just like to bring to your attention that the next witness is Hilda Halkyard-Harawira. Her document is C11(a). It is the amendment to her document that has already been filed. My apologies to my learned colleagues because we have not been able to put that out on the email as yet. However, there are some copies here that can be circulated.

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Ms Mangu, so she will be reading from 11(a) or 11? She will be reading from 11(a), youre Honour. Are you anticipating that this will take us through until 5 and then she will restart tomorrow? Yes, your Honour, and the other thing is that I would like to bring your attention to the fact that this witness has written her whole presentation before you today and the entitlement page actually located at the back of the document, and that is done in order not to create the same mistake that was done in the signing of the Triti. This is Hilda Halkyards work and I refuse to put my entitlement, my korowai over her krero and hence it is located at the back. Kia ora, youre Honour.

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Hilda Halkyard-Harawira speaks to her Brief [4.32 pm]


HHH 40 Trans HHH Tn ttou. n Ngti Hau ahau ki Te Rarawa, n Te Aupouri, n Ngti Whatua, n Poronihia. I am of Ngti Hau and Te Aupuri and Ngti Whtua and Polynesia... ... I am a citizen of the world.

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Ka mihi atu ki ng mate huhua o ng marae maha, ki te whaea a whaea Rab ktahi an ka mate he tuahine ki a Glass Mare, ki ahau ki Glass Mare te tino taumata m mtou o Ngti Haua, koia he rangatira pai. Ki aku hoa kua hinga I roto I te Struggle for Mori Rights, ko Collin Ngopera Clarke I acknowledge the losses on each of our marae, to whaea Rab a sister to Glass Murray, Glass Murray was the epitome of people of Ngti Hau, a good chief. To my friends who have fallen by the wayside, I speak of Colin Npera Clark - - Brian Lepou, Roger Rameka, Kngi Tangira, Sophie Stockman, Tihema Galvin, Hone Ngata, Sid raua ko Hana Jackson, Jan Dobson, me tna kotiro a Reipae, Tura Jeffreys, Hiraina Marsden, Nicky Lawrence, Walter Pou-Erstitch, Patu Hakaraia, Tuaiwa Rickard. Kua mutu te hkoi i runga te mata te whenua. Huri noa ki te haukinga tn an koutou me te hunga ora, tn ttou katoa. Ki a koe matua Erima ng mihi ki a koe nu I tino tiaki tnei huatanga o ng Kereme m ttou o Muriwhenua, o Ngpuhinuitonu, n reira ng mihi m t mahi tautoko I a Matiu Rata me te kuia nei a whaea Titewhai. Koia te tino toa o te Tiriti. Te Taraipiunara kia kaha. They no longer walk the land. To the home people, greetings, to we the living. To you, Rima, thank you very much. You protected, sheltered the claims of Muriwhenua and Ngpuhi-nui-tonu, thank you for your efforts for supporting Matiu Rata and whaea Titewhai. She is the very strongest warrior of the Treaty. The staunch Tribunal - - And all I ask is that he mahanga mamae, and there can be a time, it is like pornography, you can get so much saturation it doesnt bother you. Dont lets become anaesthetised to the pain. I know - I trust that you will make a good decision, kia kaha. Congratulations, Dr Rangi Walker, for being acknowledged, finally, by your peers. Kia ora. Ki te Karauna, homework for you please. Can you, at a later time, tell us why Te Triti, the Mori text of The Treaty should not have more weight than the English version? So I will leave that for homework. Kia ora. Mori sovereignty is a never-ending endurance marathon HILDA HALKYARD-HARAWIRA CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF

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agree to work together at a later stage for a common purpose. I am used to being controversial, so Kaiwhakahaere, in our generosity, sometimes some of us are in flavour. We were out of flavour for 30 years. You might be in flavour for five minutes. Today we have got the speaking time. Hoatu te w ki a Sonny Tau hei kaikrero he tangata pai m te htori, hoatu he w krero ki a ia, hei aha ng whakaaro m te rnanga me te whakatau settlements. Ka mihi au ki ng kaitiaki o te Hokianga, ng mea tawhito o te Pou Whakairo ki runga o Puke Rangatira me ng kaipupuri o te mtauranga Mori o nei w.

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Give time for Sonny Tau. Nevermind about what the feelings are about the runanga. He is good for telling histories and I acknowledge the guardians, caretakers of Hokianga and those who hold on to Maori knowledge. He Whakaputanga and Te Triti should have been erased from the

HILDA HALKYARD-HARAWIRA CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF and provide a modest income from sale of furs and fur products. JC We will continue pp. I hand it over to the hau kinga.

NG MTEATEA 10 DISCUSSION KARAKIA Trans We are offering up prayers to you this hour from the commencement of our day. We have offered up our prayers to you, oh Lord that you protect and cherish us, the whnau who have gathered here today in this, our sitting. We offer up our prayers to you for those who return tomorrow in the name of our lord. So we pray to thee in the name of your holy name forever and ever, Amen.

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Hearing Resumes KARAKIA Trans May the Holy Spirit come and infuse amongst us, into our hearts and your enlightenment, and may we be consistent in our works in glory to your name and upon the land, and may we sit as one before you. Our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen. Our Lord we pray to you this morning that you give us shelter for our body through Jesus Christ Our Lord, Amen. Our hymn, Kia waiata ki a Maria HMENE Kia Waiata ki a Maria

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O Lord may you provide rest and shelter for those of us and fill us with your boundness enlightenment and you were there in the times of strife and we prostrate ourselves before the Lord and we offer up that our Lord Jesus Chris.

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Kti r e ttou m, Mrena. E mihi ana ki te taumata e Bob ki a koe te kaimihi he tautoko nei te huatanga o t ttou nei karakia I whiua ai e te whaea nei a Bubby m ttou katoa, heoi an kia tau tonu te rangimarie ki raro o te tuanui o t ttou whare, ahakoa I hanga pakohu te rori innahi e pai ana, haere tonu ana te kaupapa. N reira ka mihi tonu ki a koutou. Good morning everyone. Thank you, Bob, for supporting our prayer administered by Bobbie for all of us. So may peace reign in our house, although the road was a bit rough yesterday it was okay, we carry on, and acknowledge each and every one of us. Time is of the essence. I will have a little bit more to say about the programme probably just before we go to morning tea, because we want to make a quick start. As you know, we are still finishing off from yesterday, so our first speaker is Hilda Harawera, to be followed by Hokimate Painting, Wharetatao King, and then we will start the programme that was supposed to have been this morning, which are our Ngati Wai speakers. N reira koia tn ko te kaupapa

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So that is our programme for this morning. As the organising committee, we have been trying to - working in with the co-ordinating counsel and the other counsel, and with the Judge, to try and put a programme in place in here, all of our speakers. This programme is based on an estimate of time given by the Kaikrero and their counsel. As an organising committee we understand that there is a --Excuse me, your Honour - - I have got the floor and I will finish my korero because I want the whare to understand how we are trying to organise this. As a result, we are trying to fit everybody in on an estimate of the time that we are given. If you have seen the programme and it says 15 minutes or half an hour or two hours, it is based on an estimate. Now, we will try and manage that and that is what I will continue to do on behalf of the organising committee over the course of today and tomorrow. So without any further ado e te judge ka hoatu ana ki a koe. I will now hand over to you Judge and to our next witness. Page 10, part 2. Tena koe, your Honour, tena hoki koutou. Greetings everyone. Hilda will carry on with the rest of her evidence. Greetings to Hone Harawira. He was not available to come and support his wife, but he is here in spirit. Tn ttou katoa te whare Good morning everyone. 159

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What a wonderful journey of liberation this is, even if we do not get anything at the end he wnanga pai m ttou, ng mihi ki te kai whakahaere, Te Taraipiunara, Te Mana Whenua , ttou katoa. Greetings the Tribunal, the home people and everyone.

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Hilda Harawera reads to her Brief [8.51 am]


HH They are trying to rediscuss the Takutai whatever has come out from the National caucus and kei reira tonu. Anyhow, yesterday I talked about how Aotearoa has suffered political amnesia, our minds have been made to accept that our situation as Maori is hopeless, give up. All speakers to date have asserted that Ngpuhi-nui-tonu never ceded sovereignty and Maori still practice their obligations to Te Whakaptanga and Te Tiriti Maori sovereignty is not confined to 1835 to 1840, and that is the mindset the Tribunal needs to think about, because we are not frozen in time, our chief still exists, I mana carries on. Just because it is not recognised it still happens. Yesterday I outlined protest since 1840 to - well you can say the 1930s, that highlighted Ngpuhi-nui-tonu should be treated as a sovereign partner. Part 10 title should read Part 2(b) Modern Toa and what we will do is we will go to page 12, because I am sure you would have read how fabulous we were as young Maori Ngpuhi with our partners and we had wananga, we had to - you know we came from Otara, Mangare, Ponsonby. There are all kinds of things on us that we should accept, how the lefty whites would do things and we said nah, there is something different about being Mori and we would have big wnanga with Willy Wilson, who was a communist at the time. He was a great man, protected us all at Bastion Point and made us all stick to the discipline, no humbug. All the young ones wanted to fight the police and it was Willy Wilson. Te Ata Witihera said no. nei te kaupapa kia mau ki te rangimarie. Trans HHH Hold fast to the theme. 1979, the first march - I am talking about Waitangi Action Committee. It was not known as Waitangi Action Committee until after the march. He got our name from a cop Tim Shadbolt gave us a truck to get to Waitangi, we marched from Auckland to Waitangi, he gave us a truck, the cops stopped the driver and said who does this truck who is it registered to? and he goes Waitangi Action Committee, because at Bastion Point they had the Orkei Maori Action Committee, so pretty much we borrowed it from there. So page 12, and if anybody wants a copy, they can give me their address and I can send it to them because they are all gone, sorry. In 1979 the first march from Auckland to Waitangi began under the HILDA HALKYARD-HARAWIRA CONTINUES READING TO HER BRIEF HHH but I will give that note to Mere, if she can give that over. 160

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Kia ora, tn koe. Engari ka mutu au i konei. Trans HHH 5 Trans HHH 10 I conclude here. I forget these words of Mira Szarzy, take your anger and use it for the benefit of the people. The thing I liked about her was she was the first one that started to listen to us when we would jump up and down. Ka mihi au ki a Whaea Titewhai I acknowledge Whaea Titewhai for her bravery from the old times unto this day. My mum is not here today, she has got a shift at Morengai Nohowhenua at an occupation in Ahipara and she has to rest for two days before she has the kaha to go. Mum, youre too sick. Oh no, me and Auntie Maggie will go over there and we will stay in the camp. So they had night shift at Morengai Nohowhenua my husband is in parliament, we are spreading ourselves thinly. Engari ka mihi atu ki a ttou Te Taraipiunara ng Roia Mori Greetings to everyone, to the Tribunal, to the Maori lawyers, Papa Sam [Ph 9.48.52], to the Crown and everyone. Tena koe Hilda Mary and tn an ttou ng mihi o te w. We have two waiata e tautoko. The first one is called How Much Longer. It was written by a fine young woman, because there is not a hako amongst us. Her name is Donna Awatere. The words are in English and they summarise creatively what Hilda Mary has spoken about. The second song we are going to be singing is called Taki Ngatu. The words were by Hori Tait n Thoe but the rangi is by Hori Chapman n Te Taitokerau.

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NG MTEATEA HHH Kia ora. The photo collection, I hope we were showing them, probably forgot, sorry, Simon, those photo collections are held by Hinewhare and if people or whanau want them, see her. They come from all the hikoi out of sync and kia ora tatou. Tena koe. Mr Irwin? Sir, I have no questions. Engari te mihi ki a koe te whine toa. Tnei te mihi atu ki a koe me k he hhonu ng krero i whrikihia mai nei, he krero mai i te ngkau, , he krero e p ana ki te htori ki te whakapapa a te whawhai I ng iwi Mori I ng tau kua pahure ake nei. N reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koe koutou ko t rp. Whakamiharo ng whakahua te taahua hoki. Tn koe Hinewhare m ng whakahua nei. Kia ora. Thank you very much, brave woman. Your evidence was of great depth and heartfelt and the history and the genesis of the battles of Maori in these years past. Thank you and your group and I marvel at the photos that you have arrayed. Thank you, Hinewhare, for the photos. Thank you.

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Tipene Potter questions Hilda Halkyard-Harawira [9.54 am]


TP Trans 5 TP HHH TP HHH 10 TP I have some questions for the witness, just brief questions. Kia ora, Tipene Potter tku ingoa, he roia ahau. My name is Tipene Potter, I am a lawyer. You have involved in constitutional issues for many decades, is that correct? No. No? My husband is involved at the moment, but not my whole whnau, no. But you have certainly been involved with people who have shared experiences about what their tpuna, who were Kaituhituhi to Te Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti? Ae. Now, some of that krero that you have been told, I think is really important for the Tribunal to understand, particularly around the word kawanatanga. Now, in week two Dr Bruce Gregory gave some evidence. Are you familiar with that evidence? No. No. One of the things that Dr Gregory said was that Kwanatanga meant something less than absolute sovereignty. Would the people who have spoken to agree with that? Yes. And you would agree with that too? I agree with it. The late Mori Marsden spoke in Kaitaia about this and he took it from the bible and he said Mori would have understood they were au fait with the Paipera that there was a difference between Herod and Pontius Pilate and that Pontius Pilate was understood to be a governor and Herod was the king and I say to my students who take treaty studies it is the difference like being a Kwanatanga is the manager and the rangatira is the owner. Now, that is a good point because what - - Dont ask me hard questions. I think the answers that we are looking for are very important to the questions that the Tribunal have asked and I think that you have got a lot of evidence that is important to the core questions. Sure.

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Dr Gregory, I will focus on Dr Gregorys evidence first, Dr Gregory said that the Kwana was beneath the king. Now, that is what you have just related to with Pontius Pilate and Herod. Now the Kaituhituhi to He Whakaputanga and especially Te Tiriti would have understood that when they were agreeing to a Kwana coming in, it was somebody less than the king? Yes, because they would have seen themselves as the chiefs, as the rangatira. The king was like a rangatira of sorts? Yes. But, and that is what the tupuna would have understood in the day. Mm. They would have also understood that the Kwana was a lot less than the king. Yes. Dr Gregorys evidence also said that the Kwana did not have the power to pass laws. Now, is that the understanding of the people who have spoken to about their tupuna, who were Kaituhituhi to Te Tiriti, did they understand that the governor did not have the power to pass laws, especially laws that bound Mori? Pass on that one. I can ask I will ask the question a bit differently. Did the Crown have the power to pass laws to make Maori do things; was that part of Te Tiriti? I think we saw it as that Pakeha could make laws for themselves and they would look after them because a chief, when you are in charge of your own people, you can do anything with your people, you have the right of life and death over your people in your area. Your people play up, you kick their butts. You dont let someone else do it. We still hold those principles today, but who is the chief of these humbug Pkehas? So they were asking for Pakeha to look after their own. So what you are saying is that when the Kwana comes in, and this is your evidence this is the evidence from the people who have spoken to about what their tpuna who signed Te Tiriti, I cant make that point strong enough, it is about the people, about the tupuna who signed Te Tiriti in the day. What you understand of the korero that you have been told is that the Crown had to do, and when I say Crown I am talking about the Kwana, the Kwana had to do what they were told by Mori, is that correct, by Rangatira?

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I think Kwana would have they would have liked Kwanatanga to work with Mori. But that they would like them to take care of their own people, like Maori chiefs did. When you are talking about them taking care of their own people, they did not have the power to come in and then just rule everyone? We have three Crown reps here. It would be like saying that this Hui would give them all the mana for this marae. We could not do that and we would not do that, and that would be the same situation back here. We would acknowledge them as chiefs for what they do, we would hope that they would work with us and that is it. Because Mori do not like telling others what to do. We like to try and see if they work with us and if people do things a different way, we have to accept that they do different things a different way. But we do not have to accept, like I say, if they threaten our Rangatiratanga, we do not let anyone do that to us. Now, there is a difference between the king and the governor. Yes. There is a difference between - - Mr Potter I think that point has already been answered. Yes. Kia ora. And what we are going to do is say that somebody else other than the Kwana was the boss. Oh definitely. They would have seen that there. I think that point has already been addressed too. And that boss was a Mori? No, pai ana. They would have seen that Queen Victoria would have been there, the colleague. But not the Kwana? Not the Kwana. He was just he mma noa iho. Kia ora. Thank you.

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Annette Sykes questions Hilda Halkyard-Harawira [10.01 am]


AS Sir, I have one question and it is a question that was raised by my friend, the Crown, of another witness. But I would like the same question to be put to this witness. Your brief has been very helpful in identifying efforts by what might be described as different Whakaminenga, gathering of Mori rangatira, to assert rangatiratanga and mana. Would this be a fair description of all of the matters that you have discussed that since 1840, 164

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certainly here in the north, there have been many, many gatherings, not just yearly at Waitangi as the declaration contemplated in autumn, but all of the time to look at ways to develop tikanga and how we as Maori may make laws to look after our own people. That is what I am trying to endeavour to summarise and I ask that question in light of the question put by my friend yesterday to witnesses about Mr Morley Powell, asking when did The Whakaminenga meet in modern times. HHH Yes. All of the every hapu meets all the time, we meet at Waitangi 4th, 5th and 6th, there has been taumatua kaumatua hui at Waitangi October the 28th for all of the years that I have been back home and my uncle, Glass Murray, was a member of te taumatua kaumatua. So yes, and Mori do it all the time, that is what we are about, that is why we are still strong.

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Thank you. Would you agree that your evidence, while it might seem modern, is actually a documented history of how we have met to provide tikanga to honour Te Tiriti and to remember the declaration of independence in our lives? Exactly. Kia ora. Taihoa, we have got some questions. Sir, just before that, I would just like to say that it also answers issue number five, I think you put there, the effects that are carrying on to today. Tn koe Hilda. Kei te mihi atu ki a koe te wahine toa I pakanga m te mana motuhake o te ao Mori. Kei te maumahara tonu I te w ia a koe e tamariki ana, , ka whakatt atu koe ki ng Pkeh e whakahawea ana I te haka I roto I te Whare Wnanga o Tmaki. He tino toa koe m tr huatanga. I tipu k mai krua ko t hoa I roto I te taone, kore I mhio ki te reo, kore I mhio ki ng tikanga, engari ka hoki ki te w kinga, ka ako I te reo, ka ako I ng tikanga, whakat t krua khanga reo, reo irirangi, kura kaupapa, kore he tngata I k atu I a krua m tr momo mahi I te manaaki I te iwi. N reira ka nui te mihi ki a krua. Tn krua, tn krua. Thank you Hilda. Thank you for your evidence, you warrior woman who fought for the rangatiratanga and the mana motuhake of the Maori world. I still recall the time when you were younger and you challenged the Pakeha who were jeering the haka at the engineering school at Auckland University. You are a true fighter for doing those actions. You and your husband were raised in the town. You did not know the language, you did not know the customs, but you went home and you learnt the language and the customs and you established your kohanga reo and your radio station and your kura kaupapa Maori and there was no one else beyond you for achieving those sorts of attainments. So thank you very much. Kia ora. Ms Mangu, your next presenter? The next presenter is Hokimate Painting. Sir, there is an amended document to be filed with you. Mrs Painting will be reading from her own document, and again, this is a document that she has written herself and I will be putting my entitlement page at the end of it as well. Sorry, we do not have copies of the amended document. Yes, I am aware of that, your Honour, because of what happened the other day, I have not been able to get a document properly filed, but I will be doing that within the next two weeks. So what document do we refer to?

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At the moment you will just have to follow what because basically there is a it is document C12. But is there a document to supersede this? There is a document to supersede that, your Honour, but it will be filed within the next two weeks. E te matua e Eru. Heoi an ra e mihi ake ana ki a ttou katoa. E mihi ake ana ki te Taraipiunara, mihi ana ki a koutou katoa ar ki te Kwana e noho nei I waenganui I a ttou, ki ng roia, ttou katoa e te whnau e mihi ana ki a koutou katoa kua tae mai nei I tnei r te tuatoru o ng hohoutanga o tnei kaupapa. Heoi an r e rapu ana ttou katoa I te pono me te tika, n reira e mihi ana, e mihi ana, e mihi ana ki a ttou katoa. Greetings everyone, greetings to the Tribunal, greetings to everyone. To the Crown, counsel who are sitting amongst us, to the legal counsel representing the different claimants and to all of us, greetings to you all who have come here this day, week three of our hearings as we search for the truth and righteousness, so I greet us all. Tn koutou, tn hoki ttou katoa. E ng kaiwhakaw kaua e rikarika mai ki taku roia, ehara nna te h kore kau aku te hanga nei kore kau aku rangatira I pai kia kite koutou I aku krero kia pnuingia r an. N reira koina t koutou he whakarongo mai. Members, please do not castigate my lawyer. It is not her fault. It would appear that the powers that be decreed that you not see my evidence until I actually read it out to you.

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Te mea tuatahi mku me tuku whakawhetai atu ki t ttou matua nui I te rangi, m tnei honore kua tatu mai ki waenganui i a ttou e huihui nei ki te whakaputa krero m rtou ttou tpuna kua mene noa atu ki tua o te rai. Firstly, I would like to send acknowledgments to the creator for this honour, that the lord may come amongst us as we speak of the histories of our ancestors who have passed beyond the veil. Huri atu ki a koutou ng kaumatua o te Taumata, ng mihi nui kei a koutou te mana o tnei huihuinga mai I te tmatanga o te wiki ki te mutunga. N reira me pnei ng mihi, tn koutou katoa kia kaha, kia maia, kia manawanui, manawaroa, aroha mai. E kore hoki e warewaretia ng reo karanga o ng marae, ng manu tioriori hei tautoko I ng mihi o ng kaumatua o te taumata. N reira te mihi, tn koutou e kui m, m te atua koutou e manaaki I ng w katoa. Turning now to the elders of Te Taumatua, warmest greetings to you all. You hold the mana of this hearing from its commencement unto its conclusion, so let me say greetings everyone. Be strong, be steadfast and be of stout courage. Lest we forget the women who call to visitors on our marae, the songbirds who support the speeches from Te 167

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Taumatua. So I acknowledge one and all, to the grand dames of our marae, may the lord protect you at all times. Huri atu ki te hunga o te Karauna, a koe Anaru, me hoa mahi tahi. Ko tnei te huihuinga tokotoru m te Taraipiunara o Waitangi mai I te tmatanga o nei hui kua kite au kua rata mai koe ki ng krero. n reira me pnei oku mihi kia kaha te whakarongo mai, kia kaha te werowero mai kia tau au te mramatanga mutu ake kia nui te aroha ki te iwi o Ngpuhi. E kore hoki e warewaretia oku hoa me ng whanaunga kua whiwhi nei ki ng tohu o te ture ki a koutou me koutou hoa mahi tahi tn koutou katoa. Turning now to the Crown team, to you, Andrew, and your colleagues, this is week three of our hearing process for the Waitangi Tribunal in Te Paparahi o te Raki. From the commencement of these hearings I have seen that you have softened and have taken aboard the evidence that is being proffered. So I ask that you listen keenly to the words being spoken and be determined in your challenging and questioning so that enlightenment may accrue and finally, may you have much love in your deliberations for the people of Ngpuhi and lest we forget my friends and the kinfolk who have advanced in the fields of law. Greetings to you all. Ng mihi mutunga kei a koutou ng kaiwhakaw e noho tahi nei me koe Barry me hoa mahi tahi I muri I ng kaiwhakaw. Ng mihi tino nui ki a koutou katoa. N koutou I whakaae tnei whakaritenga, tnei honore hoki kua tatu mai ki waenganui o mtou ng uri o te iwi o Ngpuhi. Kia kaha te whakarongo ki ng pouritanga, ng mamaetanga e puta mai ana I ng krero hei aha? Hei whakarongo whnui m koutou, me phea r te awhi. N reira tnei r te mihi atu whakarongo mai, whakaaro whnui mai, aroha mai. Kia koutou ar ttou ng uri mai I ng hap o Ngpuhi kua tae mai ki te whakarongo krero, ki te whakaputa krero rnei tn koutou katoa. Nau mai haere mai. Finally, to the members of the Tribunal who sit in unity and to you, Barry, and your work associates who are operating behind the Tribunal, warmest acknowledgments to you all. It was you who agreed and arranged this honour. You have come amongst us, the descendants and the people of Ngpuhi, be strong and listen keenly to the pain and the afflictions that will come through in the evidence, that it may be heard widely and that you may work out how to assist. So we ask that you listen keenly and intellectually dissect the claims and to the descendants of the ancestors of Ngpuhi who have come to listen or to give evidence, greetings, welcome, welcome. Ko wai tnei e mihi atu nei? Te maunga tapu o Whakarongorua, te awa ko Utakura, te hononga o te roto o Ompere ki te wahap o te Hokianga. Te tapu ko te Rakaikuka, ko Uta te Whanga he riu ko Utakura. Ko Maru ng whitu mai I a Rhiri me Mokonuiarangi, koia nei te matua o Taura Tumaru te tino rangatira o Utakura. Te hap ko Te Popoto, te iwi ko Ngpuhi. Ng mtua ko Rangitehau Kingi rua ko Mohi Tawhai Kingi. E t atu nei t rua kotiro mtaamua Hokimate Kingi-Painting te kaikrero m oku mtua tpuna tuatoru o Te Popoto hap. Te arikia Mohi Tawhai me tona teina Te Rauhi Kingi kia ora ttou katoa. 168

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Who is this who stands to greet you? Whakarongarua is my sacred mountain. Utakura is my river and the link between Lake Omapere to the Hokianga River and the plains are Uta-te-Whanga and the valley is Utakura. The descendant line from Rhiri and Mokonuiarangi down to us and unto Tumaru, the chief of Utakura. The hapu is Te Popoto and the people are Ngpuhi. My elders, Rangitehau and Mohi Tawhai Kingi. I stand here, their daughter, their eldest daughter, Hokimate Kingi Painting. I speak on behalf of my ancestors of Te Popoto hapu. Te Ariki Mohi Tawhai and his younger sibling, Te Rauhe Kingi. Greetings one and all. Inianei kua huri te reo engari I mua o te huringa he krero aku m ttou katoa. E ttou katoa, e ttou te iwi o Ngpuhi, ta tirohia te hua noho o rtou e krero atu nei ttou ki a rtou. N, n mtou tnei mahi ki te taiapa I a rtou me o ttou rangatira, tupuna hoki. N reira me mutu ttou te pekepeke, me mutu ttou te paiara, me mutu ttou te werowero I a rtou, n mtou tnei mahi te taiapa I a rtou kia kore ai rtou e para I a ttou. Ae e rongo atu au I a koutou n krero, kore koutou rongo nei I ku. N ttou tnei mahi kei muri rtou I ttou tpuna, whakaaro, whakaaro, aroha mai me haere tonu n te mea e hiahia ana au tahi whetu kaura m aku tpuna me au hoki. Inianei kua haere I turn now to the other language. But before I do, I have some things to say to all of us. Ladies and gentlemen and the people of Ngpuhi, look carefully at how the members are seated. We organised the seating thus to fence them off and arrange our ancestors in front of them. So let us cease jumping up and down and let us cease challenging the members. It was we who organised things here, to bind them and to fence them, lest we may be compromised or physically challenged. So it was us, they are arrayed behind our portraits of our ancestors. So I want us to consider this for everyone. I want some gold stars for my ancestors and for myself. I turn now.

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Hokimate Painting reads to her Brief [10.16 am]


Morning Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 1 [10.26 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 2 STARTS
35 Hearing Resumes PT K mai t ttou kaikrero a Hokimate. There is also a purse, bag, gear that has been misplaced. If you recognise it, kei konei, kei runga te tpu nei. Just before that Pita, I just want to let everybody know that during the break here were discussions that went on regarding the timetable. We as a Tribunal want to ensure that we hear from the Ngpuhi witnesses who are on this timetable, and because we have been running a little bit over time we are slightly behind. So we had that discussion, we are still considering how we can manage things. We will carry on with the krero from Whaea Hokimate, and just to let everybody know that that is what 169

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we were discussing during the break. We still have the witnesses from Ngti Wai who have not started yet, and also Wharetatao King that we need to hear from, so it is about ensuring that we do hear from those people. Okay? So that is what we are planning on discussing during the break. Ka pai? Now, we will Kei a koe whaea. Kia ora, sir. Ka horohorongia nei wku krero kia whiwhi ai i ng whetu. I will move along now, so I can get a start.

Hokimate Painting continues reading to her Brief [11.01 am]


Trans 10 ?? JC I will move along now, so I can get a start... ... decedents of the ancestors, as we sit here in discussion, greetings. Sir, she would like the questions put before the waiata. Mr Irwin?

Andrew Irwin questions Hokimate Painting [11.28 am]


AI 15 Tn rawa atu koe Mrs Painting, tnei te mihi atu ki a koe Mrs Painting m t krero mai. Kua whakarongo mai nei mtou ku hoa ki krero mai, me k ahakoa he tawhai t whakahoa I t krero tturu koe ki t kaupapa ar te whawhai m t iwi n reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koe te whaea o Te Popoto. Kore kau he ptai mai i tnei taha. Thank you very much, Mrs Painting, for your evidence. We have heard keenly your evidence and although your words were couched in sweet tones, your determination shone through the grand dame of Te Popoto [Ph]. We have no questions. Tn koe m u krero. Kei te tatangi t reo I ng taringa, kei te houhu te ngkau, ka mau ki roto I te hinengaro n reira tn koe, ng mihi nui ki a koe. Mrama atu te whakarongo atu, p mai ana te mamae kua p ki a koutou I roto I a mtou e noho atu nei. N reira tn koe. Thank you Maam for your evidence. I hear the emotion in your heart. It was clear, your evidence, and your pain was sensed clearly. Thank you. Kia ora e kui Kare kau he ptai. Tautoko nei ng mihi a te kui ki a koe, ki a koutou, tn koe. We have no questions. I endorse the sentiments of the kuia. Thank you very much. tn koutou e Ngti Tpu, tnei an te waiata he twhito n te riu kei roto t te kinga tturu o te kaikrero I knei. N te kaikrero I knei, n toku papa, he tuakana me te teina. Ka whai ake au m te teina ka ttika te tuakana, ko te tuakana ka ttika te teina, n reira tn koutou.

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This is an ancient waiata from the valley, from the home of the speaker. The speakers mother and our father and my father are brothers. And so I am following on in the tradition of siblings assisting each other.

WAIATA 5 JC Trans PT ?? JC 10 LT Kai ora, Your Honour, kua mutu tnei kuia rangatira Ms Painting has concluded her evidence. Our next presenter is Wharetatao King. Tena koe, sir. Linda Thornton will be taking over [Indistinct 11.35.20] Ms Thornton. Ms Thornton, while you are setting up there can we just have an indication, so time, 11.30, will this I see it is estimated for an hour. Will this take us through to 12.30 lunchtime? Certainly that long, and hopefully not much longer. I have tried to estimate, calculate and we have not added anything and we have not amended our brief in any way that I know of, so we are striving to stick to an hour as close as possible. If we could get through this one before lunchtime, that would be good, and then we could hear Ngti Wai straight after lunch. That would be very good. And possibly, Your Honour, to take advantage of this few moments before I actually introduce Ms King, I would like to remind the Tribunal that we have exhibits D, F, and G to our brief of evidence, that we have the original of those documents here today and we would like to publish them to the Tribunal, meaning to actually bring it forward for you to view, and we thought we would do that during the presentation. We would not stop necessarily, but we have somebody that can bring it around. And I would like Your Honours permission to do that if that would be acceptable. Thanks. At this time I would like to introduce my next present the next presenter who is Wharetatao King, and I will just turn it over to her from here. Thank you, Your Honour. 30

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Wharetatao King reads reading to her Brief [11.38 am]


WK E te tpu, e te hui, e ng mokopuna, e te whare, e te whnau, me phea hoki he krero ng moemoe o ttou matua tpuna, engari pnei k taku tmatanga. Tn m koutou e whakamrama mai ki ahau ko tn te Taraipiunara, ko tnei rnei, kore au I te tino mhio ko wai r. Kia ora r. I te tuatahi e hiahia ana au kia mhio koutou. Members of the Tribunal, and to the people assembled to the grandchildren, and to the people within the house, and the house, to the family, how can I possibly express adequately the dreams of our ancestors? However, let me attempt and perhaps some could tell me who is the Tribunal, who are the members of the Tribunal. Greetings.

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It is an absolute privilege to be able to come here and share the ancestors dream. And as a matter of courtesy to them, we have turned up today out of courtesy to share the beautiful banquet that will be placed before you. We don't come to ask anything, we don't come to change anything, and we don't come to ask anyone to see it our way, but merely to thank you all for giving us a chance and an opportunity to go back to a childhood experience that was not of my choosing but rather one designed way beyond my physical appearance here. Someone has got reception. That is not fair. How cool is it you I have got a cellphone taped to the end of my tewhatewha if I am out in the courtyard, and now someone gets a ring? Things are working after all. Thank you e ng mokopuna. I will be straight up, I don't know how to do a krero the way I saw it being done previous to me, but I admire them. I totally admire their ability to go and take krero and string it into a sensible mauri, and I want to thank the speakers that were before me. Tino tino t miharo ana ahau, n i runga i tr whakaaro kua huri au ki te take o te r. N reira tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora r ttou katoa.

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I turn now to the matter at hand. I am Wharetatao King. I bear my grandmothers name on my fathers side. I was instructed very young that my name had a lot to do with being able to instinctively know how to deal with challenges, how to ward off challenges, how to assist others who may suffer with a challenge that is giving them some grief, and so te Wharetatao is the name that holds the information like a university, like a whare whanaunga, on the ability to instinctively know the pathway correct to have an outcome that would make you proud. My surname King, I don't change my name to Kingi or any other forms of variations because I was exposed on many occasions to my tupuna crying at night because of the shame that they had learnt being passed down to them regarding the trickery that was executed on our tupuna Huri and Tuku when they went over to the Norfolk Island and were left there and abandoned until they gave up the fight and gave their knowledge at the end of the day to this ship owner William King, because he wanted to turn the whole island into rope, because that was the industry of the day, and they starved themselves would not eat for a long time. So I had to listen to our old people cry like that, about these tupuna. And they used to say to me, Never ever, ever change the name King. You are to always remember the incident of when our tupuna were taken away to the island of Norfolk and forced to reveal the process of turning harakeke into rope. So they finally gave in and passed the information over, and they went about turning the flax on that island into rope, only to discover it was the wrong rope and it kept breaking a wrong flax.

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And so they asked William, William King, the ship owner to bring them back, but they insisted he bring them back at night. They did not want to come in during the day because they were too whakam and so the appendix 1, is it? The waiata Te Ra te Po Pango, which I think you will find marked as appendix A, holds that information that I have just shared with you. And I will just do a couple of lines so you can understand the tone of whakamomori that was in them when they were coming home in the middle of the night, and to Waitangi. WAIATA

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So that is just talking about when they were coming in, they were weaving in and out of those rocks at the entry of at the Waitangi entrance there. And so that holds that information about paragraph 1. If you think you want me to stop or anything, I don't have a problem with that, so please, if that is anything you would like, just indicate, that is kei te pai tr. Yes. And on my maternal side, bears the name Wharerau. Now Wharerau was a name placed upon my great grandfather Raniera Wharerau who was born up on our maunga in Hakatere on the plateau called Mararangi and he was not given that name until he was three months old and in those days they did not bring them the tamariki down to introduce them to the whakapapa until te rerenga toto tuatahi o te mm muri mai i te whnaunga mai o te tamaiti. Trans WK Until the mothers first shedding of blood cycle after having a child. - - - take of his lifes work was placed on him then in the name Wharerau. And as you will see in my brief, he became passionate about fulfilling the meaning of his name which was charged upon him at three months, when you grow up, all you are able to begin establishing within each rau huri noa i te motu, and that is what regions and districts or rohe were called in his time. A whare that will take care of business in that rau, and that rau, and that rau, and that rau, and in that rau. Wharerau. And so with his dream of fulfilling that he went on a tour, we would call it a roadshow today and with Hapahuku, and Pene Taui, they toured the whole of the country, come back with 20,000-plus signatures from whanau hapu who were willing to engage in a political structure which allowed them to themselves, under the banner of Te Kotahitanga. Paragraph 4 deals with a hui that our tpuna Te Pahi, attended in Omanaia regarding there were three take, three take discussed at that hui, or three decisions were made, so sorry. The first one was what was the name they were going to create that would correctly describe their descendants in 200 years time. What could that name possibly be? So they had whanaunga and they and that was one of the take at that whnaunga in 1794. The other take was for the Ng Puhi whnau rangatira to make a decision unanimously to transliterate their Nga Puhi reo for the expediency of trade. The other take so that was a name for the descendents be te reo, and a decision the third one that they made was to allow the ways that they see this, our country, and other countries, 173

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how they have drawn our country, because they drew our whenua upside down. And our tupunas had already been out there travelling and they knew, they were going Oh. Kua wera katoa te tara o t ttou whaea, because the maps already showed Papa-tu-a-nuku, if you have got a screen, and you are looking at a screen, they had her the other way, and they were so sorry because they reckoned that her tara was sunburnt. Her vagina. Put her on her feet was their request. But they made a decision in 1794 to leave her that way for now because they were in a position to begin trading and create liaisons very different to what they had experienced. So when they went out and they saw in the museums all around different parts of the world that they had shown our whaea upside down, they made a decision that we would leave it like that. And so the word Mori, decided upon at that hui, derives from the whakaaro . Until then they believed, they saw themselves as the Te Iwi Oriori. But they were fully aware that it would not take long, that they would not be able to claim that purely. And that their descendents would become parts of Te Iwi Ori mixed with what? And so the m did not mean white of the word Mori, it means M te toto o tn iwi me te toto o te iwi ori ka puta te hua. M te toto o tr iwi, me te toto o te iwi ori ka puta an he hua. So its not the white blood and that blood, its through the leason with that iwi and that iwi and they marry into us, we end up Trans Through the blood of that iwi and the Mori iwi will benefit fruit, and through the blood of that iwi and the blood of the Ori people, benefits will accrue. - - - are we that is what they write? How many of us are pure Mori? Kia ora. I dont disturb your whakaaro, can I hongi you later? Ive never hongied a true blooded Mori, thatd be a pleasure. Any body got a ptai? So like many here at the hui, among my many tupuna Tamati Waka Nene, Patuone, Tawai or Taiwhai, and these tino rangatira were signatories to the Wakaputanga o Ng Rangatiratanga o Niu Tirani. Like all the rangatira, I can whakapapa to all hap throughout the motu. However, I choose as a sovereign rangatira to give only a selected portion of my whakapapa, and I choose to give it by traditional oral means through the Tauparapara Pipiwharauroa, a copy of which is attached and marked as appendix B. But I need to have a drink, sorry. TAUPARAPARA

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Pipiwharauroa, kawekawea te tangi iho nei kare [Indistinct 58:24.7]. Whiti mai, whiti mai kurukuru weho te hau I tuku mai. I Maunga Nui kei raro I a ripiroa e ng ranga karakia, he wehenga karakia. E ua ai te ua taka mengomengo noa ki Papatnuku ng tohu o te p. Kawau te theke roa ki Moehau. Pari mai te tai I a Araiteuru, [indistinct 58:51.7] atu ai a Riki, ai e aue. He titi ki te mara ko te Taraki a Katea. Maunga ki 174

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Hakatere t noa mai n. He maunga kanahi nui tangi whakaingoingo te manu. Te tahuna ki Kaiwa ka twhera ki te rua. Ko te taniwha I moe a Tuputupuwhenua, haere ake ki Pangaru ki P patapu. Ng maunga whakahirahira o ku tpuna e t noa mai n. Te Kakai i Whirinaki e rere ki Opara. Ki Paria te h I waho ai he tohu n Kupe. [indistinct 59:42.4] te rui ki te hapanga kei tirohia matatia te rua patiki e twhera mai r. Ko te huri o Toi ka ahi he urunga, taka ki te moana ka manu me ko Tangaroa. Haere mo ake ai au toku toki nei ko te Tu I te Rangi ka kohakoha ana. Tawhirimatea tuku au kia eke ki te awhiowhio I te puroro hau e tuku ki muri. Whakahinga nei au te one ki Rangaunu. Taku mumu hau taka ki manawa tahi. Ka whara ki te uru te amokura e, m runga mai koe te Taitokerau e t ki t Tonganui whakaruru ake ana te hau ki Mangamuka, ng tai pehi I riri nu e Kupe. Ka hora ki te ao, whakarongo ki ng tai tangirua roto Tawhitinui mihi mai, mihi mai. Te Tai Kakarirua whakatawhaki nei au. Kia taina atu te Paparo I Hawaiki. Tere i Hawaiki whakangarungarua te rae ki Kumuhore [indistinct 1:01:21.4] hakahaka te wao ki te matua. Whakawhirinaki ai au ng p nikau. T ki k kawhara, ka kuru mai ai te taro, e ora ake ana. E hia nei o roto I ahau kia moe ake ana I taku tungane, aue te hakuhaku nei, ka kku e, tau e, tau e. Trans Shining cuckoo, rise and stab the air at Maunganui is the division of prayers, the rain falls upon the land, the signs of the night, and the cliff, the tides rise at arai te uru The bird flies and the taniwha who married Tuputupuwhenua that goes among pangaru ppapta the mountains, the illustrious mountains of my ancestors that stand tall. The flag at Whiria and the mist falls upon the land and gazing upon the Flanders fields that are open to the people, the descendants of Toi unto Pangarua let me upon ride the whirlwind and may the whistling blowhole behind. WK The boundaries noted in this tauparapara extend from Kaipara Harbour through to Cape Reinga and they include the various waterways situated both above and below ground. In days gone by our people used the waters, both above and below the ground, for transport. Of note too is that our boundaries include Easter Island and Ha-wai-i-ki. N wai te h kei runga i te wai i ki a wai? Koina te Ha Wai i Ki.

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Whose breath is upon the waters that is the Ha-waiki. - - - to me of what Ha-waiki means. I also link to Kai Tahu, the people of Papa-tu-a-nuku. This is the original name for the South Island. It means that the land that has never every moved from its axis full stop and Whaninua [Ph 12.02.54] put a report out recently that substantiate its. Our tupuna knew way back when? They were clever. Mind you, they had a wairua net. Eh? We got the internet, they had the wairua one. You know, there is so much in here, and I have really I don't really want to stick to paragraph 3 to 73. It is I am being told I have to.

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If you want to, I mean you are welcome, we have read it all, so you are welcome to like I suppose summarise it all rather than go through each paragraph. Yes? Because I do note we have had half an hour of korero and we are on paragraph 7, and you have got 63 to go. So you may want to just summarise your korero. What is the main points? Yes. Okay. I think I will go I will be very quick. 1940 the arikis in our whakapapa all around the areas I just waiataed, used to pray and pray, how do we bring about a change for our people? How? And then in 1940 they turned up at Mum and Dads, and my Mum being Amiria Wharerau and my father being a Tuauru Kingi, Tuaru King, sorry. And said to my parents that they had been praying for an answer and that they were very sure that what was being shown to them, that they were going to be able to pass a child through their whakapapa, and they all know that this child would be the one that they have been seeing in their prayers because this child would be wearing a kahu, a kahu. And so that was in 1940, and then in 1950 with that visit of the old people almost forgotten, I appeared. And Mum ended up in the hospital having me, and she pulled the bottom it was a two-piece kahu, and she pulled the bottom half off very slow because she was freaking out I might have webbed feet and webbed hands, which was common in our whakapapa, or maybe crocodile elbows, knees and shoulders was also another feature, of if we were really lucky we had gills. And so she said that when she discovered that I didnt have webbed feet she was kissing my feet and the doctor cut the top part of my kahu a little piece off to I don't know, what did they do with it then, and she behaved in a way that I asked her about it when I was two years old, and I asked her why she gave the doctor a hiding in the hospital, and I think I remember she was carrying a bucket, we had just come up from the cowshed, and just carrying a bucket of milk, and dropped it and it tipped, of course, and so I was not very popular, and she said, Who told you? I said I hadnt been told by anyone. I saw it. And she said, Impossible. I said, No, I saw it and I said, And you hit the matron with a pan and knocked her out. No, I didnt say that, But you hit the matron with a pan, and then she still didnt believe me. It wasnt until I in some way made the time on the clock that was in the theatre when I was born, I made by hands tell the time that was on the wall, that my Mum grabbed a bucket of water and threw it on me thinking I was possessed. And then they rushed me over to our uncles place, which is her brother Bens house, Uncle Bens house, and they told him he ran ahead, and we went out to Waimamaku and met all those old people again, the tohungas, and but they assured my mum and Dad that I wasnt in fact possessed, but I had come through with a particular gift that they thought may be needed to be developed, but in fact I was born with it, which was an exceptional recall, memory recall. And so realising that they asked my mum and dad to enjoy me because at three they were going to come and get me, and begin my training. And so by four and a half the first kuia that inputted into taking advantage of the memory recall that I demonstrated, was my 176

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Karanimama and she had the responsibility of ensuring that she taught me many aspects of the Declaration of Independence. She was 92, born in the 1860s, brought up in huts and whares that were constantly visited and raised by signatories of the Declaration of Independence. 5 And so she was able to, in her training of me, take me back into those huts in the 1860s through the voices that she could throw, and let me hear how they were practising the phrases back in the 1800s and how our ancestors perceived the phrasing of He Wakaputanga, Wakaputanga o Nga Rangatiratanga o Nu Tirani. Yes. So I am getting prompted now. They don't know I am still back in the 1800s. They didnt have jets then. I have to jet forward now to page 37. Okay, so what I want to do is to see with me and feel with me is at four and a half, you are taken to the Waipoua by a kuia who is 92 years old, who was raised by people who were signatories to The Wakaputanga, and her job is to lay that information into my cellular memory. Her job is to ensure that she leaves a legacy intact behind, not for a couple of years, but for today, for this very day. And that is why I say this is a courtesy call. And so we would go into the ngahere and we would wait outside the area that she had selected, and she said kaua koe e haere ki roto. Trans WK That shed go inside. And when she felt it was right, I know you want me to go straight to the translating, but there is no use doing that unless you get the feel of how she built the momentum to put that information in me. And so we would be outside the ngahere on a track, and she would go like that. Ninetytwo. As soon as she went into her karakia, she was 16. Never felt anything with her body, and she just put her rakau down in the land like that, and you would hear her start to hum, getting her voice into a mode where she knows the forest will accept the tones coming out of her and that her tone is not going to abuse the growth of the trees. Am I boring you? And so she would start. Ko te kawa ora, ko te kawa ora, e tatari kaua e haere, Then she would try again. By then she is kicking her feet, creating the scene, creating the senses, waking me up, waking herself up, asking for permission for her and I to enter. When we finally get in there she would go turn to the tree she would turn me to the tree, and then she would start, and when we get to article 2, I will give you an example of her voice to let you know how she would throw it at that tree and give it back and never will I ever forget, as long as I stand, breathe, live, it is in my memory of my cells. So with Te Whakaputanga what she did was her first job was to teach me the whakapapa behind the title of the document. Nga Puhi rights like te tai-hauuru. He whakaputanga o ng rangatira o Niu Tireni the way that they all agreed to leave behind in the title evidence for their descendents that you would be very, very aware that they were here on your behalf.

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Excuse me, I wonder, Ms King, if you can just speak into the microphone so people can hear it and we can record it. So that left behind in that title is evidence for the mokopuna that their tupuna were here and here it goes. He Wakaputanga was what te TaiHauuru chose to leave behind as evidence that they were involved. So, go down every family group on te Tai-Hauuru. Rangatiratanga is the evidence left behind for the descendants to understand. Who are the two iwi today that are the loudest of our dead? Tino rangatiratanga and are unashamedly so. Te Tairwhiti, Te Puku o te Ika Were you involved? Yes. They left their mark here for you to see. And Niu Tireni is the TaiTokerau evidence that we were there too, because no only did the transliteration of the word New Zealand indicate that we are there, but the love we showed by using that word, absorbed the entire country. Don't ever forget the gift you gave to take the whole country in under this document. How loving were your ancestors to put their genealogical rights into name of this document. Not just Nga Puhi, everyone was here for the party. And I don't expect you to believe me. I am only sharing with you what was taught to me. Okay? Love you all.

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Now, article 1, Ko mtou ko ng tino rangatira o ng iwi o Niu Tireni I raro mai o Hauraki kua oti nei te huihui I Waitangi, I Tokerau, I te r 28 o Oketopa 1835, ka wakaputa I te rangatiratanga o t mtou ake whenua, , ka meatia ka whakahuaina e mtou he whenua rangatira, ko te Wakaputanga o te Wakaminenga o ng hap o Niu Tireni, aroha mai. Ko taku mokopuna kei te hiahia te haere mai. We, the chiefs of New Zealand, north of Hauraki have met at Waitangi, and the north on the 28th of October 1835, and we express the rangatiratanga of our own lands. And we say that this is an independent land. Now, we have the name tells you who they are. Okay? We don't need to cover that. We have already been there, it is clear, ko mtou ko ng tino rangatira The point in this one that I would really like to work with is i raro mai o Hauraki. Now, if we go back to the hui in 1794 where our tupunas made a decision regarding the way the rest of the world were going to perceive our land mass as being upside down, in our tupunas view they decided then to leave it like that so when we hear in here, i raro mai o Hauraki, it means exactly that. We don't turn go back on our feet and then go i raro mai o Hauraki, and just leave it in Nga Puhi, no, no. And so i raro mai o Hauraki kua oti neighbourhood te huihui. The other part that I would like to talk about is to matou ake wenua. Yes? Trans WK Our own lands. Two meanings sitting inside that, because of the way they phrased back in that time. To matou ake wenua is like making an announcement to the world, this is our you know, we are talking about our land mass here.

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The people who are involved in this decision are also saying our individual hapu lands. Okay? Is there any patai? JC 5 WK JC WK 10 Not yet, but if you just want to carry on a bit further, and then it may be an appropriate time to take questions from the Crown, and from the Tribunal. Kia ora. And we will try and wrap all of that up before lunch. Ka pai. Kia ora. Going into article 2. This is the one I wanted to give you an example of what I was put through in the bush at 3 oclock in the morning. Okay? But the karani made it so much fun for me I really did not even know it was cold sometimes. And what she would do is sink back into the voice that she could hear in the discussions in the hut in 1860s, and so when she would impart that whole emotive experience that she was going through as a young girl, and duplicating all the different voices that were in those huts, it might have sounded something like this: Ko te Kingitanga ko te mana i te whenua o Te Whakaminenga o Niu Tireni, ka meatia nei mtou kei ng tino rangatira anake. Trans 20 WK We say that only the great chiefs of our assembly we will never cede the power to establish laws to anyone else or any other government. Did that give you an example of what I was put through? And that is only one sentence. She taught me the whole thing that way. So that is a question that they asked constantly in that hut when she was a little girl. Was it really the Kings mana? Here? The Kings monarchy here? In our nation, was it really that authority? Didnt we say we will not allow kore tukua. Miss King. Yes. Are you ready for ptai, it might be an appropriate time to take ptai there. Ae? Kei te pai tn Mr Irwin, do you have any questions? I have no questions. Could just let her go for a little while? Ae. She likes to hang around sometimes. Kei te pai?

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Ranginui Walker questions Wharetatao King [12.25 pm]


RW Trans Tn koe, e te tuahine. Greetings maam. 179

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At paragraph 11 you talk about When I was a child and a vision came at two years of age. I asked my mum why she hit the doctor at my birthing. And then at paragraph 63, you talk about The 16 waiata were handed to you through the veil from the other side. And you say, I am not a composer, I have never composed any songs before in my life. However, they just started coming to me when I began this work for the mokopuna. Anei taku ptai ki a koe, he matakite koe? Question are you a visionary? Ko ahau ttahi mokopuna kare kau e mataku ana ki te tuku i ng wairua o aku tupuna te hakahaere i ahau, me pn taku whakahoki. I am a child, a mere child who opens herself up to the ancestors who wish to use me as a medium. Kare ku ptai, engari ko te mihi atu ki a koe kei te rongongia te tangi n roto i kupu, I te rere o te mita o t reo, me te mamae kei roto I a koe. N reira tn koe te maia ki te t mai ki te tuku mai n krero ki te Taraipiunara, tn koe. No questions, but thank you very much. I can hear the pain and the lamentations in your voice and your delivery. Kore au he ptai engari I do want to thank you for the brief that you have put together, and the accompanying documents that you have supplied to us which has made reading your brief, with those documents, a lot easier. So, ka nui te mihi ki a koe, koutou i haere mai ki te tautoko I a ia, tn koe, tn koutou. And also your support team. Thank you very much. E k ana koe kua ktia te krero m tnei w, , muri mai te w tina ka hoki mai? Is my time up? Perhaps after lunch, perhaps I shall return? Kua pai, kua ptai I ng ptai. It is good. It is complete. We have asked the questions. Taku e hiahia ana te ptai ki a koutou te hui o te tpu n te mea he mea pea, he mea mataku kei roto I tn o tn o ttou, engari kua oti k taku krero ki a koutou kore kau I haere mai ki te ptai ttahi mea mai I a koutou ki te whakararuraru rnei, engari tku e akiaki mai ana mai muri kia haere ttahi atu kaupapa paku nei kia taea te krero kapia te kuahi, ka harikoa mai muri, kia kore ko ahau ka patua e te rori e hoki ana kore kau i tino oti. Ana, taku e noi ana mn ka whakaae koutou ka taea e au te haere mai ki te, he aha te kupu, I dont know what the Mori word would be for it but in Pkeh, I would like to publish too the tale I would like to ask you, the people, and the table, and perhaps some may be a bit unsettled, but I have completed my evidence. I am not here to cause trouble, but there are forces that are compelling me to offer up 180

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another matter that I and then I can close the door to them and they will be surprised because lest I be the payment if we do not complete things adequately. If you agree, with your permission, can I come and - - WK 5 JC LT 10 JC WK JC WK JC 15 WK JC WK - - - I would like to publish to the table one of the evidences that I would have loved to have brought out and if that is possible, if you granted me, then I would be so like - - Yes, Ms Thornton spoke about this before. If you want to present that too. It is available right this minute. We could possibly do it and then - - Okay. And while that is happening, can we sing you a waiata, one of those 16? Ae, ka pai. Yes. Not the whole 16, eh. Oh, what? Are you going to choose the short one or the long one? Yes, medium. The medium, ka pai r. We, you know, I did not put this submission together. I would not know this phrase. So I think I am quite flash. We are going to come past and what is the legal term, publish to you a document Mori got, not the government, not the bishop, not the residents from another land Mori got a letter, and from the Queen of England via her courier, Thomas Gore Brown, and it is asking Mori would you you know, would you like these laws. And we would love to publish it to you. So, we have that permission to do that? Waiata mai May I be so daring as to say they wont mind if we sit there? Just getting guidance here from Aunty Bubi to make sure as to where you can go.

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Tn koe, tn koutou. That is probably a beautiful way to go to the pnui, Pita. Ae, kia ora ttou. E mihi ana ki ng kaikrero katoa e Wharetatao tn koe me t rp tn koutou

HOUSEKEEPING 35 Lunch Adjournment 181

WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 2 [12.41 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 3 STARTS
Hearing Resumes JC 5 - - - is to hear from the people, that is why we are looking obviously to hear from Ngati Wai in this session and in the next session. If possible we would also like to hear from Dr Merata Kawharu. However if that is not possible, because as I say our first goal is to hear from the people and if it is not possible to hear from that claimant witness, and we understand she is unable to return tomorrow, then we would look to take her evidence as read and set up a process for written questions. It is not the most desirable position, but in order to obtain our first goal of hearing from the people that is the process that we would look to adopt. In terms of tomorrow we think it is important that at the least people hear from the two presenters tomorrow. We have heard from counsel that they are very keen to clarify some of the matters that both of the presenters have in their evidence and so they would like the opportunity to question them. So in order to accommodate that we will look to go with Mr Carpenter in the morning and then we would look at having questions from counsel, questions from the Crown, and if there is not if we run out of time there then those oral questions can be supplemented by written questions, and the same process we would look for Ms Ann Salmond. That is the process that we look to provide for today and tomorrow. Like I say, our first goal is to ensure that we hear from the people so Ngati Wai Tn Koe NK Trans JC NK 30 Trans JC TA 35 E te rangatira he ptai tnei ki a koe r I k mai nei te krero nei, e k mai ana koe he claimant. My question to you is who said that this Merata was a claimant witness? In her evidence. Ko taku ptai, n wai tr [indistinct 2:35.0] khai tahi o mtou e whakaae ki tana krero [indistinct 2:42.8]. I just say that because some of our group do not agree with what she says. Kia ora, Nuki. Perhaps if I can assist there, your Honour. My understanding was I allocated to lead Dr Merata Kawharus evidence. My understanding, sir, was that she was commissioned via the Crown Forestry Rentals Trust at the request of the Waimate Taiamai Alliance, your honour. Koia nei te krero kua tuku mai ki au. That is the information I have on hand. Kua mrama Mr Alders, Ms Tuwhare? 182

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Thank you, your Honour. tn an tatou. Greetings everyone. It is with great pleasure, your Honour and members of the Tribunal, that I invite the Ngati Wai speakers to present their evidence. Initially, sir, we will have an introduction from Haupeke Piripi prior to the kaikorero who are presenting their evidence. First to present will be Hori Te Moanaroa Parata, that is document number C22, and he will be followed by Te Warihi Kokowai Hetaraka, sir. I have handed up an amended brief for Mr Hetaraka this afternoon and you should have that before you. That is document number C19. Kia ora. Thank you. Ka kuikui, ka koakoa, ka rere te whnau, waihoa hoki au kia kwana i te puni I te mrama, I te wnanga, I te tauira mai e. Tuia I te kawe tairanga I te kawe, ko te kawe o Ihoa, ko te kawe o te haere, n reira e ng mana, e ng reo, e te Taraipiunara, te whare, tatou katoa kua huihui mai nei I raro I te karanga o tnei r, te kaupapa o tnei r, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora tatou katoa. Let me remain at the camp while the people have gone. Bind of the people under the mana of Jehovah and to the members of the Tribunal and everyone assembled in our house on the call of this day and the matters before us. T ake tnei te maramara o te rkau totara o Ngti Wai I raro an hoki te mana o t mtou tpuna a Manaia. T ake tnei ki te tutuki ng moemoe o ttou mtua tpuna. Ng kwenata I waenganui rtou me koutou m o te Taraipiunara, o te Karauna. He kwenata hia rtou, tnei kawenata hore kau rtou e h ana rtou whakaaro m tnei Te Tiriti o Waitangi engari rangirua ng whakaaro o te Karauna I tnei w e t ake tnei te mihi atu ki a ttou katoa me k he tai mihi whenua, he tai mihi tangata ko te tuku mai ng ngaru me mirimiri I tnei riu o Whangaru. N reira I tnei w e hiahia ana te whakaheke I ng hekenga o Manaia. Manaia ka koe ia Tt, t rua ko Mouriuri, ko Motipua, ko Manuhiri, ko Pukohu, T Mouriuri tana ko Whakatau, tana ko te Rau a Te Hui, tana ko Manaia Tuarua, tana ko Rangikapikitia, tana ko Whakaturangi, tana ko Kauawa, tana ko Rangapu Kuramakoha, tana ko Rangapu, tana ko Rangiihokaia, tana ko Toremoko, Te Rangiihokaia ko Ao o Te Rangi, tana ko Toke, ka moe a Ruakanohi ka puta ki waho ko Patapohanoa, ka moe a Hawhea ka puta ki waho ko Te Rangi Apatini, ka moe a Paiakanui ka puta ki waho ko Teari, ka moe a Hera ka puta ki waho ko Te Matenga, ka moe a Merepaea ka puta ki waho ki waho ko Hori, ka moe ia Ruiha, ka puta ki waho ko Hoana, ka moe a Morore ka puta ki waho ko Haupeke, ka moe a Mere ka puta ki waho ko tnei n e t ake inaianei n o Ngti Wai. I stand here, a servant of Ngati Wai, under the mantle of our ancestor Manaia. I stand here to realise the dreams of our ancestors and the covenant between them and you of the Tribunal of the Crown. They entered into a covenant for this covenant The Treaty of Waitangi. They 183

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entered into it whole heartedly but the Crown had other ideas. But today I stand here to acknowledge the people and acknowledge the land, and we see that the tides of men have crashed upon the Hokianga and so I will offer the whakapapa from Manaia married Tete, they begat Muriuri, Mtupia, Manuhiri and Pkohu and from Muriuri who begat Whakatau, who begat RauaTe Huia, who begat Manaia the 2 nd, who begat Rangikapikitia who begat Whakatrangi who begat Kawauwa who begat Rangapu, Kurimakoha who begat Rangap who begat Rangihokaia who begat Toremoko, Te Rangihokaia begat Ao-o-te-rangi who begat Toke who married Ruakanohi and begat Pato Ponoa who married Hawhia and begat Te Rangiapetini who married Paiakanui and begat Teari who married Hera and begat Te Matenga who married Mere Paia and begat Hori who met Ruiha and begat Hoana who married Morore and begat Haupeke who married Mere and begat myself, who stands before you, of Ngati Wai. N reira e oku rangatira e ppuri mai ana te taumata, te mana, te ihi, te mauri kua tae mai tnei o Ngti Wai I waenganui I a koutou me ng mahi hianga o te Karauna. I tnei w ko te t mai tnei ki te whakawhitiwhiti aku whakaaro, ki te honohono nei whakaaro ki a koutou mai ko te t mai nei I tnei w. So to my kin who hold onto the Taumata and the authority and the life force we Ngati Wai have arrived amongst you and the works and look into the deceptive works of the Crown, and we have come here to enter into discourse about our thoughts and our reasons to bind them to your thoughts and to your reasons at this time. N, I tmata mai a Manaia me Ngti Wai m tnei tauparapara e whakaatu mai te tmatatanga mai te taenga mai o Manaia ki Aotearoa ki t mtou pukenga wai o Ngti Wai.

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Manaia and Ngati Wai, its origins may be illustrated in this chant explaining the arrival of Manaia to Aotearoa, to our waters of Ngati Wai: TAUPARAPARA Takina r kia ara te taitara ki Motu Kokako whakatia r te tikitiki o T Te Mahurangi. He manu kawe I ng k ki roto o Pouerua ng kohu e tatao I runga o Rkaumangamanga. Kei tahuna Tapu Te Riri e, whai mai r ki au. Ki roto i tnei whanga o tnei tauparapara te taenga mai o t ttou tpuna a Manaia I runga I tna waka a Mahuhukiterangi. Tae atu ia ki Motu Kokako, n, ka neke atu ia ki Maunga Nui, kore I roa ki reira, n ka whakawhiti atu ki Taupiri ki te taha whakararo o Mangamanga. I reira ka pakaru tana waka, n rrere haere ana ng wairoa me ng namu puta noa I te motu. N, ka whakawhiti atu ia ki ttahi atu o ng nohoanga o ng pukenga wai o Ngti Wai ki Whangaruru, ki Tawhitirahi, , ki Whangarei Terenga Paroa me tahi atu o ng nohoanga. Trans In this portion of the chant is quoted the arrival of Manaia upon his waka Mahuhukiterangi. He reached Motukokako and then moved to 184

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Maunganui and for a while he stayed there, and then crossed to Taupiri on the other side of Rakaumangamanga, his waka capsized there and the mosquitoes and the fleas spread through the lands, and he traversed the lands that would soon become Ngati Wai to Whangaruru to Tawhitirahi, to Whangarei Teranga Paraoa and some other sites of occupation. N, te whanga tuarua o tnei tauparapara: The second part of this chant: TAUPARAPARA

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Tn r koe pea e p e te apatu te krero a Whare ana kia houhia te rongo e kore e mau te rongo. Ka whakarauika a Ngpuhi ka t tai haruru te moana e hoia ai e Ngti Wai ki raro ki Ptawiri. Ka mate I reira ko te Wehenga, kore I reira ko te Aukumeroa, n [indistinct 10:43.2] kei waho o Ruamrunga he au here toroa whai mai r ki au. Koinei ttahi o ng tohu whenua I waenganui I a mtou o Ngti Wai, n I roto I tnei whanga o te tauparapara nei ka rongo koutou te taenga mai o Rahiri I waenga I a mtou. I tona taenga mai ka moemoe haere mai ki ng tpuna whaea o Ngti Wai, o Whangaruru, ko Ahuaiti, ko Moetonga. Trans These are sort of the symbols of land occupation by Ngati Wai, and in this part of the chant you will hear the references to the arrival of Rahiri amongst Ngati Wai. On his arrival he inter-married with the grand dames of Ngati Wai, Whangaruru, Ahuaiti, Moetonga. N reira I reira mtou e noho ana I mua o te taenga mai o Rahiri, ehara tnei I te krero ki te takahi t ttou tpuna a Rahiri engari I whakaatu mai ana t mtou tino rangatiratanga o Ngti Wai. I reira an hoki mtou I mua I te taenga mai o Reitu, o Reipai. I t rtou taenga mai ki Whangarei Te Terenga Paroa, engari m nei mea ka kite ng honohononga ki ng iwi katoa. We, Ngati Wai, were there before the arrival of Rahiri. This is not a boastful comment against our ancestor Rahiri but it merely shows our rangatiratanga of Ngati Wai. We were also there before the arrival of Reitu and Reipai. On their arrival at Whangarei Teranga Paraoa. But it is through these tales that we see the links to all the iwi. N hore kau tnei e hiahia ana te tangotango ingoa o hapu k, n reira he maha ng pekanga o tnei ttai mai Manaia tae atu ki tn hap, ki tn hap I roto I t mtou rohe. Engari kei knei a Ngti Wai I raro I te mana o t mtou tpuna a Manaia. I do not want to quote other peoples hapu but there are many links to this whakapapa from Manaia descending to that hapu and that hapu in our area. However Ngati Wai is here under the mantle of our ancestor manaia. I tnei w ka huri atu ki ttahi atu o ng tauparapara: 185

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At this time I will turn now to another chant of Ngati Wai Te Puke Manaia. TAUPARAPARA 5 Te Puke I Manaia ka tarehu e mihi ana ki te whenua e tangi ana ki ng tangata. Horohh p korohh ao ka rongo I turia ki te matahou o T. T Winiwini, T Wanawana, T Whakaputaina ki te Whei Ao, puta ki te Ao Mrama, tihei mauri ora. Turuturu a Tai, turuturu a uta whano whanao haere mai te toki, haumie, huie, taiki e. N reira ko te rangatira a te Ikanui I roto I tona matakitetanga I kite I te taenga mai o te Pkeh I waenganui o Ngti Wai. I kite rtou mahi, ng mahi o te Karauna, te tangotango whenua, te tahae whenua, tahi o mtou nei whi e kia nei e au ko Reotahi ttahi. N Te Ikanui I whakahuihui tona iwi, n ka whakahua nei krero tona kitenga ki a rtou e hoa m, kite atu au te taenga mai o te Pkeh me t rtou mahi tinihanga, n, kei Reotahi kite atu ia e hakatt ana te Pkeh t rtou whare patu mti. N, kei roto I tana kitenga meatia atu ana ki a rtou I kite I ttahi e rere atu ana te toto I te awa tae atu ki te Whangarei Te Terenga Paroa, n meatia ana ia He toto, he toto, he toto. Trans 20 We acknowledge the land and weep for the people. The Chief Te Ika Nui in his visionary state he saw the advent of the Pakeha amongst Ngati Wai. He saw their works, the works of the Crown, taking land, stealing land; some of the significant places such as Reo tahi. Whilst Te Ika Nui who gathered his people there and he uttered his prophecies to the people and said, People, I have seen the Pakeha, and in this time he will come with his deceptive works. Reotahi could see that the Pakeha established their freezing works, and in his vision he said to them, I saw the blood flowing into the river and out to the Whangarei Harbour, and he said, It is blood. It is blood flowing. It is blood. N, I kite an ia te tahae o Tikorangi, o Motu Kiore, n, mhio ana ia he moni, he moni, he moni. I te mea kei reira tahi kohatu raima, whi kohatu raima, n he moni kei roto n t huatanga. N, kei roto I nei krero kk pai ana I ng htori, ng whakapapa. He also saw the theft of Tekorangi of Motukiore and he realised it is money, it is money. It is about money. Because there are limestone pillars there and there is money to be made from accessing that resource. N, me huri atu au ki te patere a Rakaumangamanga, ttahi whanga: Now in these stories they are replete with histories and genealogical ties, and I turn now to the song pertaining to Rakaumangamanga. 40 PATERE Ko maunga whakahh kei te tai marangai ko Rkaumangamanga. Manaia Matakana o te ao. 186

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N reira nei ng pou krero, ng maunga krero, ng maunga whakah, ng maunga whakahirahira o Ngti Wai me k Ng Pou o te Whare Tapu o Ngti Wai. N, kei roto I tnei krero ng t tohu whenua, ng krero o nei maunga e karapoti mtou iwi o Ngti Wai me ng hap katoa. 5 Trans References to the mountain Rakaumangamanga. These are the speaking mountains, the illustrious ranges of Ngati Wai, and the pillars of the sacred house of Ngati Wai. In this statement we see the mentioning of significant sites that is from the stories of the mountains that surround the realm of Ngati Wai and the hapu. N, me huri atu tnei inaianei n ki ng hononga ki a Te Kapotai ki a Ngti Hine, ko te Harihari o Ngti Wai ki a rtou. Onui e Ngti Wai hei aha, Onui e Te Kapo Tai hei aha. Onui whakauruuru ki ng tawatawa o Ngti Hine ka taupoki te waka, a ko te Tt ka tikona iho. I will turn now to the links to Te Kapotai to Ngati Hine. 15 Heoi an aku rangatira e te Taraipiunara kua tae mai mtou, kua tae mai mtou, kua tae mai mtou o Ngti Wai mea ana ng krero he tamariki mtou n te moana. People say that we are just children of the seas, and that is we are of the taniwha residing in the waters. 20 Ko tona manawa tear, ko ng taniwha kei reira. Heoi an e oku rangatira hore kau tnei e hiahia ana te troangia ng mihi engari ko tnei tnga te whakahora nei krero I waenganui I ng tpuna e whakahua mai nei, konei rtou wairua e rrere haere ana, e hakarongo ana ki ng krero o nei nei n ko te t mai nei. N reira kti ake mku I tnei w, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora ttou katoa. I will not be too long, but I stand here to lay down the themes before the portraits of our ancestors because I sense their spirits have come amongst us and are listening keenly to the words of the speakers. So enough from me. 30 WAIATA

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Huruiki is the mountain, Mokau is the river, Hekeheke are the people. Here are my grandchildren and the ancestors who have gone on beyond cry out. It was Huruiki. Stand tall as a messenger and acknowledging the people who acknowledge your welcome. Tihei winiwini. Tihei wanawana ka puta ana ki te whaiao ki te ao mrama. Tihei Mauri ora. N reira e tautoko nei ng mihi ki a koutou e te tpu, te rangatira e t ake nei ki mua I ahau nei. N reira ko tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou e haere mai nei ki te whakarongo ng nawe puta mai mtou ng tinihanga o te Kwana, n reira ko tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou.

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I endorse the acknowledgments to you by the chief who stood before me. So I would like to acknowledge and greet you as you are here to listen to the concerns and the acts of deception by the Crown, and so warmest acknowledgments to you all. Ng mihi hoki ki a koutou e te iwi, n reira kia kaha ttou, kia kaha ttou ki te whakawhiri atu ki t ttou nei whanaungatanga. N reira kei reira te mea nui, ng toto o t ttou tpuna e rere nei I roto o ttou an. N reira ko tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou. tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. Turning to the people. Let us be strong. Let us be determined and to make the links closer to each other for the blood of our ancestors flows through all of us.

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Basically, your Honour, I would just like to just say a couple of things before I talk to my affidavit. I have been to all of these. I have been to this hearing from the beginning right until now and I have felt rather pouri about how the koreros have been changed, because what they are trying to say is perhaps sometimes not coming out. I just felt I needed to say that. Secondly, it is the Crown the thief, the liar, that is making the rules for how we approach this taki with you people. And I just needed to say that for ourselves we find ourselves doing all sorts of things to please you people when we are not doing very much at all for our kaumatua and kuia. N reira koinei k pouri

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These are my concerns. My name is Hori Te Moanaroa Parata and I provide

Hori Te Moanaroa Parata reads to his Brief [1.39 pm]


authority could be taken by the stroke of a pen. Kia ora ttou. 30 HAKA JC AI Trans 35 Mr Irwin, he ptai? Kore kau he ptai, engari te mihi atu ki a koe Mr Parata, Ngti Korora, Ngti Takapari tnei te mihi atu ki a koe. No questions, but thank you very much, Mr Parata, Ngti Korora, NgtiTakapari Thank you very much for your evidence.

Judge Coxhead questions Hori Te Moanaroa Parata [2.13 pm]


JC You talk about I just wanted to clarify this. You talk about Ngati Wai being involved in He Whakaminenga and the Hui that went on there. I 188

presumed from that, it was not clear to me, that they also were signatories to He Whakaputanga? HP 5 JC HP JC 10 Trans HP Trans 15 JC TWH That is correct. In that regard I only spoke of my own tupuna, Paratini Te Manu. Then who were the Ngati Wai tupuna who I haina Te Tiriti? Paratini again, or? My colleague, Te Warihi will talk about that. Okay. Ka pai. Kore, kua mutu ng ptai ng mihi ki a koe me te tama nei I haere mai ki te tautoko I t krero, ng mihi ki a krua. We have no more questions of you. Thank you very much to you and your young fella. Kia ora koutou, ae taku tamaiti tr haere ia ki te Kura Kaupapa o te Rawhitiroa. Yes, that is my son. He goes to the Kura Kaupapa Maori O Te Rawhiti Roa. Just taihoa. We are just locating the new briefs. Tn koutou e te Taraipiunara. Kua ngaro hoki tahi o aku ppa nei, kua haupeke nei, I tahae aku nei krero, engari tino tautoko I tana whakapapa i tuku ki mua ki a ttou I tnei w. N reira tn koutou. Greetings to the Tribunal. Apologies, parts of my evidence is missing. Someone has taken some of my papers. My name is Te Warihi Kokowai Hetaraka and I provide Was it

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Te Warihi Kokowai Hetaraka Parata reads to his Brief [2.17 pm]


and they must remain celibate. 25 JC Kia ora, Mr Hetaraka. I wonder if it is an appropriate time to take pause there, we will have a cup of tea and then you can come back and continue with your korero. Kei te pai tn? PT 30 JC PT JC Just for the cup of tea period, or is that for the rest of your life? Before people go to afternoon tea. Taihoa, taihoa. Judge, before people go shall remain celibate.

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Taihoa, everybody. Please know that a small group, as you know, on Tuesday afternoon we were informed by Waitai Tua that their sister had passed away. The hui Matura is in Peria, and there is a group of us heading up at 5.30. If anybody else would like to join us we are heading up to Peria at 5.30 from directly outside the Waharoa. I runga i ng motoka One of the other things, hei ngaungautanga ma koutou i te w o te kapu t something else we need to talk about is the venue for week four, it has not been decided. The dates for week four are October the 11 th to the 15th. I think people would agree he mea pai tnei te mau mai te wairua o tnei kaupapa ki roto i Te Hokianga, n reira he whakaarotanga ano ma ttou, that decision has not been made as yet. Kia ora, Charlie.

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Afternoon tea. Te Warihi, sorry to cut you off halfway. We have four speakers, including Te Warihi, who will resume after afternoon tea. I am sorry to interrupt but we realise that Ngati Wai is very fluent. So on that basis we will take afternoon tea. Ka hoki mai 20 past 3. Kia ora tatou. Afternoon Adjournment

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WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 3 [3.02 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 4 STARTS
Hearing Resumes JC: TWH: Kia ora Mr Hetaraka I think I was up to celibacy. , ka hoki mai Can people keep quiet as they come in please and settle quickly in the hall. The actions of Tane who created and breathe his life essence via the hongi into the first woman human being is the reason why kai whakairo must not blow the wood chips during the process of carving. Such an action could be seen as behaving like a God by breathing life into the forms we create. To break any of those rules meant immediate retribution from the spiritual realm or harm may be passed down through the udi, no one could even see the work unless they were given permission. You have got to realise here, I am talking about the past. The tapu relating to whakairo is unlike any other and is a higher level of tapu than most. This is because trees or rakau, should have said there one of the reasons, are the domain of Tane Mahuta who is known at the life giver, and therefore part of the Kauae runga must therefore navigate and the transfer of the superior wairua and Mori connected to the tree to a new form for humans to use. The Tapu must be strictly observed, there must be no mistake in the whakapapa restartations from Ranginui and Papatuanuku so as not to imperil the project and the people involved.

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The tapu or cocoon was placed over the project at its inception remained in place up until the dawn of the opening of the building. The entire process from beginning to end is likened to the conception and growth of new life in the womb. The woman in the form of a puhi, or ruahine are called upon to open the new whare or launch the waka. The night is the birth canal. The building is open at dawn and the first people in the whare must be a woman, in recognisation of the fact that they are the only ones able to give birth. However, there must be either a puhi who is pre-pubsecent or a ruahine who is past menopause. Woman in either of these states guarantee that the purity and devine essence of the project is maintained. The birth is the new form that has been created into the world of light. Tapu ensured the balance of the energy forces and that pulsates throughout the whole of creation were maintained. Tapu has been compromised since the arrival of the Pkeh and our people observe them entering the line and cutting down trees without retribution. Our people observe the newcomers ignoring tapu and then going on to wipe out traditional and sacred resources. The fact that the Pkeh did not adhere to our laws is one of the reasons that our rangitara sign teteriti. The impact of Christianity and the observation the Pkeh were not affected, even when they breached tapu meant that the affect of our laws and the authority of the tohunga and rangitara was being undermined. Te Teriti was a guarantee that our ways would remain to protect our society and environment whilst allowing Pkeka and rangitara to step in and regulate their own people. As I have said above, the symbolism is contained within whakairo, enhances our understanding or our traditional korero. As part of our oral traditions, from a Mori point of view, the human brain is by far the superior tool in which knowledge can be held.

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From generation to generation, students were carefully chosen to be initiated into the wnanga. The training was intense with the first phase being the separation of the mind of the student from all worldly things. This involved the student having to endure vigourous physical and mental tests. The whole process was considered tapu. To cut a long story short it was very rare indeed for a fully trained person to ire. If they did make an error, it meant the tapu was broken and the consequences could be fatal. Because of the standard of excellence reached by the learned ones, once they had completed this training, their expertise and the method used for the transmission of knowledge was totally reliable. So we remain confident of the factual position or our oral histories. The integrity of our oral history is further corroborated by the universal nature of our stories, not only here in Aoteroa, but throughout the pacific. Conversely written history or literature is more often disputed and prone to error. Whakairo was our written language and like Te Reo flowed to the rhythm of nature. Our mtauranga provided the principle on which our rangitara entered into agreement with the Pkeh. They could not know that their 191

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ways would be ignored and betrayed by the Pkeh. By the time of the signing of The Treaty, some of our rangitara had converted to Christianity. Traditionalists continued to adhere to laws of prewhakaputanga even though they appeared to take up Christianity. 5 They lived in a Mori world and took on Christianity on Sundays, so even though there were two camps, the traditionalists and those separated from traditional views regardless of their views, the understanding of those that signed The Treaty te Trti were the same. It did not matter whether thye were Christian or not, they all recognised tapu and were steep in their own laws, so they all recognised the signing of The Treaty as tapu. The tapu surrounding The Treaty was partly because of the fact they placed their mark by way of moko on it. That represented their identity and thus had to be protected, to the point that they went to war for the Crowns failure to act in accordance with the tapu of the contract that was signed. It is significant that when signing The Treaty the rangatira used only a small part of their ta moko. When we look at t moko we can read the entire universe represented there, but in signing their He Whakaputanga and The Treaty, the rangitara only chose to use a small part of their moko, which signified a humble acknowledgement that the meaning of their action in signing was insignificant to the meaning of the universe that was held represented in the total t moko. Ta moko represents the mana of the bearer; the excerise of that mana is a priviledge. The partos of the moku chosen by the rangitara were those parts that refer to them as individuals. Different rangitara took from different parts of their moko, usually the part that described their person or their particular skill. For example, an orator would choose that portion of the t moko referred to as Te P. That starts at the lower makaurangi on the Ngu and runs down the side of the mouth to the Kauai raro. I am using professional jargon here so the terms may be lost - - Excuse me Warihi, I am over here, just a moment there is a kaumatua outside and he wants his caregiver Tracy to come out to the car very quickly, if Tracy is in the room please. Kia ora. Trans JC Kia ora, kia ora Pita If you are familiar with whakairo you may know the term takarangi, Makaurangi is a similar mark that is placed on the Ngu, pnei n, and it is in the Makaurangi that the energy force mai te kore me ng p gathers, and from the makaurangi ka rere hoki te P, te Weo te More ki te taha o te waha. From the void in the dark.and then the science of the creation story are fixed to the side of the mouth.

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I know of two of my Tpuna who signed The Treaty, actually I know a few more, because all of my Tpuna is my Tpuna to. One signed on behalf of Ngti Wai, the other on behalf of a sub-tribal Ngti Wai, kapotahi, Te Kauwhata who signed for Ngti Wai was from Ngawha but it was his wife Margarita was Ngti Wai. It is said that his mark was made by his daughter on behalf of Ngti Wai. When it came to agreements rangitara expected the Pkeh would honour their word. That agreement to them was binding and any transgression by either side meant that the outcome would manifest itself globally or on the environment. It can be argued that the negative effects of this break in the tapu agreement made by our tpuna and Pkeha is manifesting itself today across the Nation today as a whole in the form of spiritual social and environmental degradation and disintergration. Manaia himself foretold that these negative forces would impact on his udi and that was resited by our previous speaker as well. The proof of the tapu that surrounds the mark on The Treaty is seen in the reaction of the rangitara who witnessed the Crown break its convenant almost immediately after signing it. By 1844 Kwiti and Heke were prepared to die to uphold the tapu of The Treaty. While we consider it the fault of the Settler government for the dishonoured agreement, we are all suffering the consequences. Sometimes that is the nature of the transgressed tapu. Ngti Wai in the northern wars was covered by hori; I am touching on a few here. After the signing of The Treaty Ngti Wai felt cheated that the British Crown had assumed authority of Mori. It is important to say that the battles that happened were to prove a point. They were undertaken to highlight that the Crown could not control us and that the Crown control over us was not what we had agreed to. The rangatira were willing to go to battle with the Crown. They were willing to assert their power and authority. This willingness not only to fight, for what we understood was tika, but also to inflict retribution on those who we believe had broken the tapu of the agreement. It was completely consistent with our own law and way of life. My grandfather Te Moro and the son of Riwhihari led the Waikato forces in the attack on Kororareka. An incident occurred as the war party closed in on Kororareka. They surprised the black man and my Aunty said he was a Frenchman raping a Ngareraumati wahine. When Te Moro challenged him, the rapist leaped up, grabbed his gun and fired grazing Te Moro on the right side. Te Moro in turn shot and killed him before continuing on his way to Kororareka to join Kawiti and Heke. My Aunty said that three nights before they marched off to battle Te Moro remained awake all night resiting karakia, chanting battle strategies and preparing the minds and spirit of his men for the task ahead. The British attacked Te Kapotahi at Waikari and my tpuna Riwhihari was killed by his whnaunga Hauraki who fought with the British and he in turn later died from a wound inflicited by Riwhi. Ringakaha, this toki Ringakaha was used in this battle. Te Warahi Kokowai killed two solidiers in battle. He took part in the battles against the Crown, forces at Kororareka, 193

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Omapere, Waikare, Ohawe, and Ruapekapeka Remo, Wetere who inherited ringakaha after the passing of the warrior was ten years old loading muskets at Ruapekapeka. 5 TWH Rangatira made the point, well through these wars that we still have the authority and we can exercise it whenever we want to. We have not given it up. In conclusion, one of our Ngti Wai signatories was the daughter of Makarita. He wahine ariki o Ngti Wai, and Te Kauwhata, Ngi Te Rangi, Ng Puhi. A noble woman of Ngati Wai. Ngati Rangi, Ng Puhi. Signed on our behalf. Another signatory was Riwhiharis great grandfather, Matatahi. Ngai T, Ngati Wai. The Treaty of Waitangi was a deal between Mori and the Crown which is supposed to let Mori and European live side by side in harmony, however, we all know that the reverse has occurred. The single biggest hurt to our people was that our agreement was transgressed straight after the Treaty was signed. The only rules that the Rangatira new and understood were derived from our complex and intricate cultural belief systems and these were the rules that governed them. Because they had accepted changes in some aspects of their lives our fundamental understandings of our world and how we behave within it remained intact and to the fore. On this basis our rangatira could not give away their power and order for Pkeha to control their destinys, nor were they themselves break the tapu of the Treaty through war, had it not been for the fact of it already having been transgressed by the Pkeha. The war was retribution for this. In signing the Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti our tpuna gave Pkeha our world views in the form of segments of their ta moko, these marks explained the understanding of our people from the conception of the universe to the present day. Because of cultural differences these world views were misunderstood, taken only as marks in place of a signature for illiterate people. They were not looked at as explanations of what we understand as our world view. We gave them our written language back then, it was misunderstood. The irony is that generations later we are presenting our histories and our world views again. This time in the form that Pkeha might understand, so that there can be no hint of confusion. It was not Mori who transgressed against our tapu, contract with Pkeha; however, it is definitely our responsibility and obligation to ensure that processes are put in place to rectify the transgressions. It is my sincere hope that the Waitangi Tribunal Hearing of Te Paparahi O Te Raki inquiry will kick start this process. Kia ora ttou. HAKA 194

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Tn koutou. Mr Irwin?

Andrew Irwin questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.46 pm]


AI 5 Yes, just a couple of questions, your Honour. Thank you very much Mr Hetaraka for your evidence. I take it from your evidence that in putting their marks or their t moko to Te Tiriti there can be no question that those rangatira who did that agreed with Te Tiriti, so my question is in putting their ta moko or their mark to Te Tiriti we can take it forgiven that the rangatira did indeed agree with, what you have called a sacred covenant? TWH AI JC TWH JC 15 AI Kia ora. I take that as a, yes, sir. Well, is that a yes? The voices behind me say ko. Ask that again, Mr Irwin? I mean the question may go without saying, but in putting ta moko or in putting their mark to Te Tiriti we can take it forgiven that those rangatira who did that did indeed agree with the Te Tiriti - there is no question they did agree with it, that is why they put their marks to that document. Yes, they agreed, according to you know 1935 and Te Tiriti not Treaty. But in saying that though, is that - you know the fact that they only took a small portion of their mark, it represented their views, and not necessarily the views of what I said earlier - the universe or the entire iwi or hapu. It would not matter if say the day beforehand they had questioned whether or not the Treaty should be signed, that would not matter would it, by signing their ta moko or part of their t moko they did agree with it, from their point of view? Yes. kati, tn rawa atu koe te rangatira o Ngti Wai. I am sort of hearing, like seeing or listening or hearing a double sword in your question. E hara tnei ptai te ptai tinihanga, engari, kua whakautua te ptai, , n reira. This is not a question to catch you out or anything, but you have responded adequately. Is that they signed according to their understanding of what the Treaty was about, not the understanding that they learnt after, yes. I am referring to the Mori version.

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, kati, tnei te mihi ki a koutou ko t rp n Ngti Wai tn koutou. Thank you very much to you and to the people of Ngti Wai. Mr Pou.

Jason Pou questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.49 pm]


5 TWH Kia ora Mr Hetaraka. I just have another question, and it relates predominantly to the use of the mark from the Ngu on Te Tiriti. I have had a look at some of the marks on He Whakaputanga and I have compared them with the same people of Te Tiriti. He rerek, ka nui tn. They are different. That is an important point. Depending on how the person was feeling at the time, you know they put what they felt was necessary to represent their mark, and they could have been taken from the jaw they could take it from the ear next time or they could just simply put a cross to represent the first of the spirals for example. So it did not matter what part they took but I think the point is that it came from a mark on their faces, yes. JP TWH 20 JC Thank you that is the question that I wanted to ask. Kia ora. Ms Mangu?

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Mere Mangu questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.50 pm]


MM Kia ora Hetaraka. First of all I just want to acknowledge my Ngti Wai whakapapa, and I have been asked to ask you some questions Sir from the floor. Is it your assumption through your evidence given that Ng Puhi does not have a direct descent lineage from Manaia? They have through Whakaruru, Auaiti, Moetonga and Paru. Tena koe. Is it your assumption that Ng Puhi descent lineage is only from Matatua, as you claim that Ngti Wai was already here when Ng Puhi arrived with Puhi, and knowing that Rahiri proceeded Puhi by 17 generations, and according to the evidence given it only shows that only 15 generations from Manaia to the Kai whakapuaki evidence given also shows that Kupe was the first arrival? Mm. Tn koe. Can I just take you to paragraph 38 on your evidence? Sorry, was that questioned answered? Yes, youre Honour. 196

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Sorry, Kia ora. For the record, Mr Hetaraka shook his head in ascent. Can we go to paragraph 38, please?

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Kia ora. And where you have the word Laws is that the correct -? L-o-r-e. Has it been checked? Because further down - - Sorry, can you just - should it be L-o-r-e or L-a-w? L-o - - L-o, tn koe. Hello. Tn koe, can we just go to paragraph 41, now, please? Thank you for that. Can you just clarify what you mean by paragraph 41? When you are talking about kawa and tikanga? Ms Mangu, what exactly are you wanting clarified? Yes. Youre Honour, I was instructed by him straight after afternoon tea, and I am doing my best, however, I also know that there is short fall and there is an interruption in protocol legally, but however, I would seek your assistance in allowing Mr Sadler to put his own question, please. Ms Tuwhare? Sir, can I suggest that those questions be put to Mr Hetaraka in writing and then Mr Sadler can - - I think that it needs to be clarified so that the people can understand all the evidence. Ms Mangu, it is a legal process, so I would ask you to put the questions. Kia ora. Can you just clarify what you mean by paragraph 41? - I will be more specific, can you clarify further about your explanation on kawa? e. Sir, Mr Pou, here. I know the Tribunal has allowed latitude to go beyond the statement of issues when it comes to the inducement of evidence, 197

however, now that we are actually asking questions I would like to know how this relates the issues in the statement of issues, and if this process would be facilitated to get these questions out a little bit faster, perhaps it would assist if Mr Sadler actually sat to Ms Mangu when he was asking the questions. Now, I am just aware that time is being eaten up and I want this stanza to progress so that it ends to the satisfaction of the people that are watching rather than just being drawn out. JC Ko tnei te ptai whakamutunga, Mr Mangu.

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e your Honour, can I just record that I could not invite our kaumatua up to this table because it is just so congested, and look at me now having to stand in this position to ask the questions of our rangatira. But I will put it now to Mr Sadler to ask the question. Your understanding of kawa in paragraph 41 has stated, and you also ask about what te kawa o Rahiri is? Yes, yes. The issue is around - do you concede that the use of kawa in your brief is the same use that is used in the northern area as kaupapa? I am just internalising it. Tn koe, e Hone, mhio hoki tn krero. That is why I said before when I presented it, that this will cause a debate, because in regards to whakairo and as you know whakairo was abolished in northland, so what I am talking about here is the kawa that is connected to where is that photo, put that photo up, please, that one of the carvings. It is a connection to the understanding of the wairua principals that is explained in whakairo. So it is not to say that that is over the term kaupapa. I have used it here to explain the principals that I talked about in whakairo, that I had explained, yes.

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Tn koe, your Honour kua mutu ng ptai i tnei w. That concludes my questions, thank you very much, sir. Sir, can I follow up on that question because that was the question I wanted to ask.

Annette Sykes questions Te Warihi Hetaraka [3.58 pm]


AS 25 Would you accept that in different disciplines within knowledge keepers that language is hugely important in conveying certain conceptual understandings? So Te Reo Mori, Te Reo Rangatira, Te Reo O Ng Puhi, Te Reo O Ngti Wai, is hugely important in conveying understandings, would you accept that? e. Yes. Now, following on from Mr Sadlers question, in your brief you have used these terms interchangeably - kawa is equivalent to law - l-a-w, sometimes kawa has been used as the word tikanga. What your brief has highlighted is sometimes the use of that language is incorrect, is that a fair summary. Inter - yes. Yes it is. And what you are trying to highlight, if I can infer that, is that just a simple term like whenua, like rangatira, without the concept, without the context of its understanding can have enormous change. Mm. 199

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So if we come back to the term kawa. Sir Eddie Dury actually suggests that the term does mean L-a-w, and not L-o-r-e, and I want to know why when you were cross examined you agreed that the term should not be L-a-w? Because just to give an example, a very learned Mori Judge does say that Kawa equals L-a-w, not L-o-r-e.

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Okay. And I want to know when you were asked that question why you changed your mind, because in your brief it is L-a-w, but you were asked whether it should be L-o-r-e, and I am asking you why you changed your mind? I will have to go back to that question again, that original question, did you write it down? Take your time Mr Hetaraka, find the paragraph you were referring to, 38. 38, that is the one you asked? Ko ia tnei te mata o te mea raka o te tuhituhi, he rerek tn, kore au he kai uhituhi ko au nei he kai whakairo n, kei roto hoki ng whakarei o te whakairo nei kia mhio au hoki ki tn. As a carver I find it difficult to place my thoughts down in writing. As a master carver my writings are the carvings. A knowledge keeper of different realms of knowledge that knowledge keepers of English language can also distort things from the knowledge keepers of Teo Reo Mori. Yes. I have no further questions. Kia ora. Ms Tuwhare. Do you have any re-examination?

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Kihi Ngatai reads to his Brief [4.02 pm]


KN Kia ora Mr Hetaraka. Tnei r ka mihi ake r ki a koe whakamramahia te mea te kaupapa i mua i roto i to tuhituhinga ko tnei mea te whakairo e whakamaramahia ai e koe ki a mtou, n reira tnei ka mihi ka mihi ka mihi ki a koe. Thank you very much, sir, for explaining your written submission about the disciplines of carving and I would like to applaud your clarification of these important disciplines. While we make the move the next presenters, I understand that, Ms Morgan and Ms Baker, their briefs will be taken as read? That is correct, sir. The two last witnesses are Wayne Te Tai and Abe Witana to present next. Thank you. 200

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NG MTEATEA JC MIHI PA 5 Kia ora ttou, Te Rarawa ka haere mai ng kaikrero m Te Rarawa, n reira e mihi tonu ana ki a Ngti Wai, a Hori, me n o ng kaikrero a Te Warahi tn koutou katoa. Tn koutou, counsels name is Miss Agius. I am here on behalf of Mr Wayne Te Tai, Mr Te Tais brief is document C26, but your Honour the Waihou Marae would like to sing a Waiata to proceed Mr Te Tais presentation. JC PA JC 15 PA JC PA JC 20 JP Can I just ask, are you also counsel for Mr Witana? Yes. Just to get an indication of where we are going to end up this afternoon, how long do you estimate that these two presentations will take? Your Honour, we estimate they will take approximately 15 minutes each, as indicated on the timetable. Okay. Thank you, your Honour. If they just want to wait just a little while, I mean - - Sir, while we are waiting sir, Mr Pou here. While we are waiting as Ngati Wai flows through the house, with the 15 minutes for each of the briefs that has been estimated by my friend that does leave only a half an hour for Ms Kawharu and I am wondering, sir, how we are to proceed for her to present her evidence, and given our intimation that we do desire to put questions to her viva voce and with the knowledge that she is unavailable tomorrow I would just like to know how the Tribunal - - After lunch I thought that I made that clear to everybody, it was that we would look to proceed and if we could hear from her that would be our desire, but our first, I suppose goal, was to hear from the tangata whenua kaikrero. The second part was that if we were to hear from her and we did not have time for questioning then we would look at questions in writing, hence my asking how long this would take in order to get an indication of whether we will get to hear from Miss Kawharu or not. 35 JP And it is in those respects, sir, I would just like to reserve a position if there is time for her to come back later on in this process for the evidence that she puts before the Tribunal today for an opportunity for claimant counsel to actually question her viva voce to allow some of the issues to be expanded upon and explored in front of everybody, sir. 201 Tn koutou, Ngti Wai.

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Yes, noted, Mr Pou. Thank you.

Tn koutou. Tuatahi ka tuku mihi ki te kaiwhakaw, tn koe, an hoki ki a koutou te rp whakamana i te Trti o Waitangi tn koutou. Ki a koutou m, , mihi atu ki te taumata tn koutou, an hoki ng kaihanga, ng whnaunga ku tuakana, na rtou e whakamana mai tku t i tnei w. Ki ng mana wahine kua taetae mai he mihi kau ana, an hoki ki Waihou te whnau a tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora mai ttou katoa. Greetings to you Judge, firstly, and to the members of the Tribunal. And greetings to the taumata, the kin the many kinfolk present my elder siblings who enable me to stand tall at this point. To the women the strong women who have come, I greet you all. And to the whanau from Waihou, greetings everyone. Ko Te Rarawa te iwi, ko Ngti Te Reinga, Ngti Manawan, Te Kai Ttai ng hap. Ko Te Reinga te maunga, ko Te Reinga te tangata. Ko Waihounui a Rua te kinga, ko Waihounui a Rua te marae, ko Waihounui a Rua te awa. Ko Hokianga te moana, ko Nukutawhiti te rangatira, ko Ngatokimatawhaorua te waka. Ko Ruanui te rangatira, ko Mamari te waka. Hokianga Whakapau Karakia Hokianga a Kupe, ko Araiteuru rua ko Niniwa ng taniwha. Ka moe a Tarutaru I a Te Ruapounamu ka puta ko Kahi. Ka moe a Kahi I a Kaimanu ka puta ko Ngakahuwhero. Ka moe a Ngakahuwhero I a Muriwhenua ka puta ko Nga Niho Te Tai. Ka moe a Te Tai I a Meriwhena ka puta ko R Te Tai. Ka moe a R ia a Hana Te R ka puta ko Penetana Te Atua Wera Te Tai. Ka moe a Penetana I a Wharani Te Whiu ka puta ko Kereti Te Tai. Ka moe a Kereti I a Huhana Dunn ka puta ko Waata Te Tai. Ka moe a Waata I a Meri Hukawai Pepere ka puta mai te kaikrero e t nei, ko Wayne Hone Te Tai ahau, tn koutou katoa. Te Rarawa is the iwi, Ngti Te Reinga, Ngati Manawa, Te Kai Tutai are the hapu. Te Reinga is the mountain, Te Reinga is the man. Waihouanuiarua is the home, Waihouanuiarua is the marae, Waihouanuiarua is the river. Hokianga is the seas, Nukutawhiti is the chief, Ngatokimatawharua is the waka. Ruanui is the rangatira, Mamari is the waka. Hokianga whakapau karakia. Hokianga of Kupe. Araiteuru and Niniwa are the Taniwha. Tarutaru married Te Ruapounamu and begat Kahi. Kahi married Kaimanu and begat Nga-kahu-whero. Ngakahu-whero married Muriwhenua and begat Nganiho Te Tai. Te Tai married Meriwhenua and begat Re Te Tai. Re married Hana Te Raa and begat Penetana Te Atua Wera Te Tai. Penetana married Parani Te Whiu and begat Kereti Te Tai. Kereti Te Tai married Huhana Dunn and begat Waata Te Tai. Waata married Hukawai Pepere and begat the speaker who stands before you, Wayne Hone Te Tai. Greetings everyone.

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Wayne Te Tai reads to his Brief [4.17 pm]


45 JC Mr Irwin?

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Krekau he ptai engari te mihi ki a koe te rangatira, Ngti Te Reinga, Ngti Manawa, Te Kai Tutae tnei te mihi kia ora. I do not have any questions thank you, sir, of Ngti Te Reinga, Ngti Manawa Te Kai Tutae. Thank you very much, sir. E te potiki e Wayne, ka mihi r ki a koe, ka mihi ake ki a koe i roto i krero m to tpuna heoi an ko te krero ki a koe kia mau ki ng krero i waihotia ake ai e t tpuna ki a koe, hoki ana ng mara ki t matua , ko koe r tnei e kawe nei ng huatanga i a ia e kawe nei tna huatanga. N reira ka mihi ake r, tn koe, kia ora. To the young sir, Wayne, thank you very much. Thank you very much for your evidence pertaining to your ancestors but I say to you hold fast to these stories that were left by your ancestors to you. My memories return to your parent and you are carrying the mantle for him, as he carried the mantle for those before him. So thank you very much. Thank you. Kia ora.

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Annette Sykes questions Wayne Te Tai [4.34 pm]


AS Sir, I have one question from one of my clients and I just wanted to put it, and I think it is important because it may be dialectical. And it is just to illustrate the dialectical differences that occur here. At the top of page 8 of your brief in a discussion you use the word and for the benefit of the audience I will repeat the whole sentence: That night Te Tai called me, and said, koro, there is one objective to my words. I know people might think that I am being obtuse here because I know what koro means but I think in the context of this krero koro may have a different meaning. Can you amplify or help us understand? Kia ora. WTT 30 Trans WTT WAIATA Trans JC 35 Waimirirangi is our Queen. Waimirirangi is the Queen of all of us. Mr Witana? e. Ko te kupu r ko koro tku nei whakaaro no te hau kinga ko te koro he tamaiti. The word koro is from the whole home lands. It is a child. So ae, it was not someone who was beyond their age. Kia ora.

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Abraham Witana reads to his Brief [4.36 pm]


AW Tn koutou katoa, taku mihi tuatahi ka mihi atu ki a koutou e Ng Puhi nui tonu i haere mai nei ki tnei wiki i raro te maunga tapu o mtou o ttou ko Panguru ki Papata, ka nui te mihi ki te taumata, ki o koutou nei whakaaetanga ki a mtou te hau kinga ki te hakapuaringia o tnei 203

huihuinga me ki te whakakapia o tnei whanga o ng tangata whenua ka nui te mihi ki a koutou katoa. Ka huri ki a koutou ka nui te mihi. MIHI Trans 5 Tena koutou katoa. Greetings one and all. Firstly acknowledgements to Ngapuhi, Nui tonu who are consistent in their attendance this week. Under the mantle of our sacred mountain, Panguru ki Papata. Warmest acknowledgements to Te Taumata, to your agreement that we, the home people, express ourselves at this forum and to close this portion of the tangata whenua evidence. Warmest acknowledgements to you. Turning now to the members of the Tribunal, warmest greeting and acknowledgements. Whakarongo, whakarongo, whakarongo ake au ki te tangi o te ngkau a Papatnuku. Titiro ki ng roimata a Ranginui e tangi ana, titiro ki te riri a Tangaroa e, titiro ki ng mamae a Tnemahuta. E whawhai tonu ana a Tawhirimatea I ana tuakana e. Whakatupu mai ng mra kai a Rongo, whakatupu mai ng hua a Haumietiketike. E ohooho ana Ruaumoko te potiki e. Ko tnei te whanga o te Ao Hurihuri I runga I te marae atea a Tmatauenga. Listen, harken, harken, listen to the cry of Papatuanuku. Gaze upon the tears of Ranginui who laments and weeps. Gaze upon the anger of Tangaroa, gaze upon the pains of Tanemahuta who is fighting still Tawhirimatea against his elder siblings. May the cultivars of Rongo and their tubers of Haumietiketike] growth forth as Ruaumoko reverberates within the bosom of his mother. This is the ever changing world upon the marae, the courtyard of Tumatauenga. Mauria mai te mana, mauria mai te tapu, mauria mai te ihi, mauria mai te wehi ki ahau nei, ki ng taonga nei. Haere mai te toki, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. 30 Bring your mana, bring the sanctity and let us see the power and the dread to me and to the treasures arrayed before us. Ko Panguru ki Papata titiro ki Te Reinga, titiro atu ki Tauwhare, titiro at ki Pukerangatira, titiro atu ki ng maunga o Tarakeha me Ototope. Me titiro ki te moana o Te Akau Roa. 35 Gaze upon Te Reinga, gaze upon Tauwhare, gaze upon Toki rangatira, gaze upon the mountains of Torokeha and Ototope that gazes outward to the sea and to the long beach. I titiro ki te Moana o Te Akau Roa, ka huri atu ki te tahuhu o Kauae Ruru Wahine. Hoki mai ki te maunga a T ki Tamatea, ka hoki atu ki te maunga teitei o Panguru ki Papata. 40 And turning to Kauae Ruru Wahine and returning to the mount Tamatea and returning to the tall mountain of Panguru ki Papata that stands with my spirit there upon the summit. 204

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E t taku wairua i runga te maunga nei. Ko Waipapa, ko Whakarapa, ko Waihounui a Rua, ko Punehu ng awa e rere nei ki te moana o Hokianga nui o Kupe. Ka rere atu ng awa ko Waipuna, ko Waihopai, ko Moetangi, ko Taikarawa, ko Ngtuni ki te Moana Nui a Tawhaki. Ko Waipuna, ko Tamatea, ko Waimirirangi, ko Waiparera, ko Matihetihe huri atu ki Panguru ki Ngti Manawa, nei ng marae o te rohe nei. Waipapa and Whakarapa, Waihou nui a rua, Punehu are the rivers that flow to the waters of Hokianga nui a kupe. And the waters flow on Waipuna, Waihope, Moetangi, Ko Taikarawa, Ngatuna to the great Tasman Sea. Waipuna, Tamatea, Waimirirangi, Waiparera, Matihetihe, and turning to Panguru and Te Ngati Manawa, these are the marae of this region. Ko te Waiariki, ko te Kaitutae, ko Ngti Manawa, ko te Waikoe, ko Ngti Te Reinga, ko Parewhero, ko Te Uri o Te Aho, ko Ngti Moeriki, ko Patutoka, ko Te Tawhiu, ko te Waitaha, ko Horehuhaere, ko Keha, ko Taomaui ng hapu o tnei rohe. Te Waiariki, Te Kaitutai, Ngati Manawa, Te Waikoe, Ngati Te Reinga, Parewhero, Te Uri o Te aho, Ngati Moeriki, Patutoka, Te Tawhiu, Te Waitaha, Hore huhaere are the hapu of this region.

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Ko Panguru ki Papata te maunga, ko Whakarapa te awa, ko Hokianga nui a Kupe te moana. E toru ng hap ko Waiariki, Te Kaitutae, Ngti Manawa. Ko Waipuna te marae, ko Te Rarawa ki Hokianga ki a mtou. Panguru ki Papata is the mountain, Whakarapa is the river, Hokianga nui a kupe is the seas. There are three hapu, Waiariki, Te Kaitutae, Ngati Manawa. Waipuna is the marae, Te Rarawa ki Hokianga other people. Taku whakapapa e tmata ai o ng tpuna ko Kahi rua ko Kaimanu ka puta ki waho ki Tiari, Te Huhu, Papahia, Herepaenga, Whakarongonui, Waiporo. Ko te whaea a Herepaenga tona ingoa an ko Ng Kahuwhero. Ka moe a Papahia ki a Koiuru ka puta ki waho ko Wiremu Tana Papahia rua ko Hone Tana Papahia. Ko Wiremu Tana Papahia ka moe ka puta ko Witana Hamihana. Ko moe a Witana Hamihana ki a Ngahirahikatopia ka puta ki waho ko Eru, ko Maraea, ko Aperehama, ko Matiu, ko Waata, ko Tame te potiki. My whakapapa genealogy, commencing with the ancestors, the kare and kaimanu who begat Te Ari, Te Huhu, Apahea, Herepaenga, Whakarongonui and Waiporo. And the mother was Herepaenga, her other name was Nga Kahu Whero. Papahia married Kohiuru and begat Wiremutana Papahi and Honetana Papahia. Wiremutana Papahia begat Witana Hamihana. Witana Hamihana married Ngahi Rakatopea and begat Eru, Maraea, Aperahama, Matiu, Waata, Ko Tame the youngest. He whakaaro i muri i nei ingoa, ko Eru tona mokopuna ko Merehauiti, toku whaea kaikaranga n Waimirirangi ka mihi atu ki a keo. There is thought put into these names. Erus grandchild, Merehauiti, my elder for my mererangi, greetings to you. 205

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Toku karanipapa, tona service number 20778, New Zealand First Expeditionary Forces. Ko Matiu, service number 260020661 New Zealand Expeditionary Forces. Trans 5 My grandfather, his service number is 20778, New Zealand First Expeditionary Forces. For Matiu, service number 260020661 New Zealand First Expeditionary Forces. Ko Waata, ka moe a Waata Witana ki a P Parata ka puta ng whnau i krero e p ana ki te WAI262 ko tku whaea karanga ko Mere Robson m. Tnei te mihi ki a koutou ng whaea, tn koutou. 10 Whata Itana married Pi Parata and begat the families that spoke of Wai 262 and that was Mere Robson and the others so greetings to you, the elders. Greetings to you, my aunties. Ko Tame, i hinga ia kua mate ia a twhi. Tona service number KIA801861. Ka moe a Aperehama Witana ki Heretutetewake, ko Heretutetewake te teina o Te Kuia i hanga i runga i tr pt. Ka puta ko Freda Takarei (nee Witana) he watene Mori m 20 tau. 79 ng tau ona tau, he kuia, he kaha i roto i a ia. A ka puta ki waho ko Matire Witana, toku whaea i takoto toku whaea i te urup o Pureirei. N, ka puta ko au. He mokopuna o rtou m. Ko Aberaham Witana TANGO25225 toku ingoa. Tame, he fell overseas. His service number KIA801861. Aperahama Witana married Heretute Te Wake. Heretute Te Wake, the youngest sibling of the kuia arrayed on the portrait, begat Freda Takerei nee Witana. A Maori warden for over 20 years. She is 79 years old, she is a fighter. And begat Matire Witana, my Mum. My Mum lies at Pureirei cemetery. And that begat me, i am a grandchild of these people, Witana, number Tango - - AW 30 Papa, he was the rangatira of Te Rarawa. He lived at a place called Hourangatira in Te Rangi. Other rangatira of that generation where his elder brother, Te HuHu, his whanaungas, Pane Kareao, Paraihe, Ng waka and Te Puhipi all descendents from Tarutaru, a warrior chief. Hongi Hika, Aperahama Taonui, Mohi Tawhai, Moetara Te atua wera and others were also known by Papahia. Ka hoki au ki ttahi krero o ttahi pakanga a Hongi Hika. Now, there is a saying that goes, from a battle of Hongi Hika. Papahia went with Hongi Hika on a works expedition to Tauranga to avenge the death of Hengi of Ngati Rehia, his sons and the tohunga, Te Haramiti in 1830 to 1831. He lived until after the date of He Whakaputanga and Te Tirito o Waitangi, of which his and his mokopuna were signatories and bracketed Te Kotahi. Tna krero he aha ai i tae mai te kawana mehemea ko te kawana rite te teitei o Maunga Taniwha ko mtou ng rangatira he puke anahe kore au i whakaae.

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Here was a saying why did the Government come? If the Government is as great as maunga Taniwha we, the chiefs, are mere hillocks. I do not agree to that. It has also been translated in other books What has the Governor come for? exclaimed Papahea. He indeed, he to be high, very high like maunga Taniwha and we low on the ground, nothing but little hills. No, no, no. Let us be equal. Why should one hill be high and the other low? This is bad. The rangatira of Te Rarawa ki Hokianga never intended, nor they in fact ceded their mana or authority as a consequence of signing Te Tiriti te whakaputanga. In fact they considered that their mana and authority was reinforced and supported. The surrounding history and traditional concepts and understandings of mana and chieftainship support the conclusion that there could never have been any intention to cede or assign chiefly mana, or by implication the sovereign authority held by Te Rarawa ki Hokianga rangatira. Records show that our tupuna held hui and made decisions over the use and wellbeing of our natural and physical resources well into the early 1900s at a place called Te Karaka.

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Ko koutou te taraipiunara, you fellows have been driving past that every morning and it is under that one tree in front of that church. Our people continue to practice the rangatiratanga. It is still alive within us in this great marae of ours for all to share. Look from within then you will know our rangatira. I end by saying let us be equal, why should one hill be high and another low? Honour the intent of He Whakaputanga and honour the covenants made by Te Tiriti. Ka maumahara nei ng krero m ng uri whakaheke m ttou mokopuna n te kinga i muri atu. Trans I recall the words for the generations yet to come, for the grandchildren of this home in the days to come.

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The people have gone beyond the horizon and I gaze upon Te Reinga and gazing upon Maunga Pohatu that stands yonder, and gazing beyond. And farewell at the people Tauwhare and Tu Panguru Papata, and my words will be lost to me and who will speak of my loses when I am gone. It will be the generations that are growing. Apiti hono, tatai hono rtou te hunga mate ki a rtou, apiti hono, tatai hono ttou ng hunga ora tn koutou, tn koutou, taku krero whakamutunga te waiata i waiatatia, ko Aperahama Witana te kaitito he taonga m ng mokopuna n ka oti au. The song that was just sung, the composer was Aperahama Witana. It was a composition for the children. I conclude.

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Mr Irwin? Mr Tribunal, I actually had another whakaro. I actually was going to leave this and present this to te matua a Ranginui Walker, ko ia te kai pupuri o taku nei taki engari I changed my mind, I think. You know what they say, three strikes. Te whakaputanga, strike one, Te Tiriti, strike two I will leave this just in case there is a strike three, but I will also have this in my jacket should a red cross or tohu need to go somewhere. If it was black you would be sweet, if it is red kia tupato tatou. Mr Irwin? Karekau he ptai engari te mihi ki a koe kei te rangatira n Waiariki, Kai Tutae, Ngti Manawa. Tnei te mihi a te Karauna, tn koe. I do not have any questions but I would like to commend you, sir, of Waiariki ki Tutae Ngati Manawa. Thank you very much, sir.

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Annette Sykes questions Wayne Te Tai [4.34 pm]


15 AS Before the Tribunal asks questions I just want a question of clarification and I would like to page 14 and 15 of your brief, and to the two sections that you have translated from Maori into English at paragraphs 85 and 87. You recall in the first evidence that you have given of the recollection of rangatira that they are having huge discussions about a number of actions that are occurring. Is this between 1835 and 1840? I just want to position the time of this discussion. AW 25 AS Just looking at those rangatira that are there it would have to have been within that moment in time. So it is between the 1835. Okay. If I go back then to paragraph 81, this is really helpful. It shows that a number of your tupuna signed the declaration of independence, He Whakaputanga, at different times over that period 1835, with the last one signing (if I look at your evidence) on 12 July 1837. Is that discussion, that wananga of rangatira, after that do you think? So it is taking place immediately before The Treaty? AW AS 35 I would like to reply to that in writing if I may, youre Honour. Kia ora, kei te pai. Well then the last question which you might want to help me is why did they sign at different times, in paragraph 81? It is, particularly when you look there, you have got brothers and cousins signing at different times. Are you able to help me on the He Whakaputanga? The only thing I could probably think of right now is that there were no waka or motor vehicles at that time, and for a message to get from Ahipara to here in the Hokianga probably would have taken a while, and 208

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for our learned people of that time to fully understand and grasp the message that was being presented to them. AS 5 AW JC AS JC 10 And my last one, because I think your quote about high mountains and low mountains because I tend to be described as one of the low ones who is the author of that he whakaaro rangatiratira tr. Ae. For that one, that is Papa, he is speaking. Ms Sykes? That is my only questions of clarification. Thank you, sir. Kre he ptai mai i te tpu nei engari ng mihi, ng mihi ki a koe, taihoa! Kei te mihi atu au ki te kaikrero r m na krero taahua kua whrikihia mai nei ki mua i a mtou. N reira ka nui ng mihi ki a koe koutou katoa, e haere mai nei ki te tautoko i a ia, n koutou n krero n reira tn koe, tn krua, tn koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora koutou. We have no questions from the members, but thank you very much to you. Thank you very much, sir. All of you who came here to support him. Kia ora tatou. Just to let everybody know, I have discussed it with the panel and we will take the opportunity to hear Dr Kawharu, but as I explained after lunch the process will be we will get the opportunity to listen to her but questions for her will be done in writing. Mr Pou has already asked that he reserves the right if there as an opportunity later to ask questions that that be done, however at this time we will hear from her and then we would look to have questions in writing that is both from the Crown, from the Tribunal and from counsel. Mr Afeaki? TA Tn koe e te kaiwhakahere, huri noa, huri noa ki a koutou ki a ttou m. Sir, I am just mindful of the time. Does your Honours krero just then mean that we can go for say, half an hour? JC TA JC 35 TA JC Yes, we will look to conclude Miss Kawharus evidence being aware that I know that some people are leaving to a tangi at half past five. Ae. So if she could be as prompt as possible that would be very much appreciated. Tn rawa atu koe, kia ora mai ttou. Dr Kawharu, did you hear what I just said in explaining the process? Kei te pai. It is over to you, kia ora. 209

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Huri aku whakaaro ki ng hunga kua ngaro ki te p. Te p uriuri, te p tangotango, te p I au t rtou nei moe. Ka hoki mai ki a ttou te hunga e pakanga ana tonu te ngkau me te wairua ki ng huatanga kua whiriwhiritia nei I raro I tnei tuanua, I roto I tnei o ng whare. N reira e te tpu e mamae tonu ana taku ngkau m ng mahi innahi. Engari e t ana ahau te tautoko I tnei ktiro, tnei o ng iramutu mai I ng rrangi hap e kia nei innahi r engari rawa I oti taku krero.

MIHI Trans 10 Greetings, acknowledgements to those who have passed on beyond the veil. And returning to the living, the people who are still fighting spiritually and emotionally for the issues that have been broached in this foreign. I am here to support this speaker here, one of the nieces from the hapu. N reira ka mihi aroha ki tnei o ng ktiro n te tono o te iwi, n te tono o te whnau ka tae mai te rangi nei e kia nei e haurua te haora he whanga mna. Te tikanga o tr krero mai I te ata t te 11 tatu mai ana krero. N reira e mamae tonu ana, engari ngawari ana te ngkau, ngawari ana te wairua. So I acknowledge this next speaker because of the call and the request of the people and the whanau, and she has a half an hour to give her, and we understood from 11 oclock she was supposed to commence, however we carry on. Tana papa ko t Hugh Kawharu, tana mama he tuahine ki ahau ko Fred Rankin Tame. N ng kwai rangatira o Ngti Kawa, Ngti Rahi tatu mai ki Ngti Whtua, Te Mahurehure. Ngi Tauake ko roto I ng kwai I raro I ng maunga I roto o Te Ahuahu, Ngti Hineira. N reira e te whnau e te iwi, aroha mai ki a ia, n koutou koia. Her father were Hugh Kawharu. Her mother is my sister, Freda Rankin Tane, from the chiefly lines of Ngati Whatua and the other tribes and Te Mahurehure and under the mantle of Ngati Hineira. And so ladies and gentlemen, here is your child. We acknowledge Merata.

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Merata Kawharu speaks to her Brief [5.05 pm]


MK Thank you, uncle. Tuatahi he mihi atu ki a koe e te matua m t tautoko mai ki ahau i te w kua pahure ake nei mai ki tnei w, kia ora rawa atu. Me koe hoki Hirini, koutou, ttou katoa. Ka mihi atu ki te hau kinga, Ngti Manawa, Ngti Kaitutae, Ngti Waiariki tn r ttou. Ng rau rangatira m, ng mema o te Taraipiunara tn r koutou. Greetings to the home people, Ngati Manawa, Ngati Kaitutae, Ngati Waiariki. Greetings. August members of the Tribunal, greetings to you. E te rangatira o Whakatohea me mihi atu ki a koe. Ka hoki aku mahara ki te w I a au e taura ana ki te whare wnanga, nu I rahi mai ki ahau m nei tmomo mahi rangahau, tn r koe. Huri noa ttou kua huihui mai nei I raro I te maru o tnei whare. Tn ttou katoa.

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Greetings to you, Ranginui, Professor Walker. My memories return to the time I was at Auckland University as a student, you helped me, you were my mentor in my research work. To one and all gathered here, greetings. MK 5 Lucky me, last word maybe. I do not know. Well, I was gearing up to present at 11, then at 1, then at 2, then at 3. So I went up, then down, then up, then down. So kau pau taku hau. So I understand I have about 30 minutes, and the presentation that I had prepared was for about 50 minutes. I thought five minute ago I was not even presenting at all and now I learned that I am, so I am going to attempt to make a start in summarising the summary where I can. So bear with me, but I will also take some cues from my left and my right to try and move through as best I can so that we can fit in what we can in half an hour. 15 But because we are really cut for time I guess one of the first things I did want to say really, Ngapuhi did not cede sovereignty. I suppose also as a start this korero really aims to support that already given by Erima and and Patu. They were talking really authoritatively on these things and even yesterday we heard, for instance, from Marsha, who spoke really clearly and very well on the 1831 petition and those sorts of things. So what I am going to try and do is cover maybe 100 years in 30 minutes, is rather superficial. So what I have to say is going to be at a high level I suppose, looking principles and where I can draw on some examples in the time that we have. I have pictures too, which I thought might be helpful at this time of day. This is a summary of a report that examines Te Tiriti o Waitangi within the context of Crown, northland Maori relationships during the 19th century. So I had certain things that I wanted to try and cover. So that is the 1831 petition of chiefs to the British government. The 1835 declaration, of course The Tiriti signing contexts, the Kohimarama conference in 1860, the role and influence in northern Maori members of the House of Representatives, the impact of the Wi Parata and Bishop of Wellington decision 1877, the Kotahitanga hui variously in Tai Tokerau. There was a deputation to the Queen in 1882, the involvement of northern Maori in the Kingitanga Kotahitanga Maori Parliament and other things. So the report seeks to highlight Maori expectations from what could be gleaned from documentary sources mainly that were both in Te Reo and in English. Some information though also came from a hui when I did this mahi about five years ago, but unfortunately it was behind the scope of the project to encapsulate all of that rich korero and because there is so few what we have to rely on in terms of trying to understand what the rangatira said in the 19th century is from Pakeha sources there are many limitation with that, and so the korero given, as I said, by people like Ierema and others are very important to elucidate from a ground up or a community perspective, you know, what was going on. 211

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So the major broad principles so I am in paragraph 2 at the bottom the major broad principles reiterated by northland Maori leaders throughout the 19th century relating to The Treaty were and we have already heard these things before as well the value of partnership between themselves on the one hand and the government, the Queen and Governors on the other hand; the right to continue exercising customary authority in relation to lands, resources and communities; the right to be involved in major decision making concerning Maori welfare and wellbeing; and equality of treatment. For many northern leaders Te Tiriti was a continuation of their relationship with the Crown. The Treaty gave added mana to this relationship and provided further opportunity to advance the reciprocity and things like peace, security, justice and economic development. For Ngapuhi in particular and northland groups more generally, Te Tiriti became a key focus in the endeavours to regain control over their affairs, especially in the latter part of the 19th century because it contained promises and agreements, as their forebears understood them, and as northland Maori continued to understand them. Obtaining recognition of Te Tiriti was also about recognition of the manaaki originally extended to Captain Hobson and his officials at each of the signing Hui in 1840 and to Hobsons successors in the period that followed. JC I am sorry, Dr Kawharu, if I can I do not want to interrupt your flow but you may know that the focus of the issues that we have lead us up to 1840 and I wonder would it be helpful if we looked for you to concentrate on that area, rather than - - I was just about to move to that. Kapai. Thank you. And then rather than going past 1840, concentrating on that era. Yes. Thank you. Good point. So just to summarise the first there are several chapters, there is about eight or nine. The first chapter (which I will not go into) covers a background period leading up to 1840, so it is briefly covering mana, trade and missionaries the kinds of relationships that were established, the various types and various places throughout northland. ?? And so if we move on to chapter 2. Is that right? Paragraph 9. That is right. How much time have I got? 212

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Okay, so what I thought to do is then concentrate on chapters 2 and 3 really. So chapter 2, new ways of promoting mana, the petition, the flag and the declaration. 5 Maori explored aspects of the introduced culture that suited them to strengthen their authority and control over resources in a changing socioeconomic and political environment. This summary highlights examples of this. The initiatives also strengthen relationships between Maori and the Crown representative realised in the drafting of a position to King William, the appointment of James Busby as British resident and in 33 through the 1834 flag and through the 1835 declaration. The 1830s was a period in which Maori were dominant and their leaders determined what opportunities were important for their peoples wellbeing and survival. It is within this context that northern Maori lay the foundations for developing a range of relationships with missionaries and with Brown representatives. Just as a quick aside, because I just wanted to make this point, that some people talk about oh well, the 1831 petition and those sorts of things were missionary initiatives or Pakeha initiatives. For me, what I found was important was not that, but how the rangatira used the opportunities that were there for their own purposes to seek ways in which they could further enhance their mana really, and get that recognised in appropriate ways. So that leads down to paragraph 12, the petition. Thirteen Pewhairangi and Hokianga rangatira signed a petition to King William in 31. Rangatira gathered at Kerikeri, listened to what the missionaries said about it, but came to their own conclusions about how their interests could be advanced more generally. In specific terms the petition saw rangatira asking for protection for supposed threats to land, social disorder and conflicts from other groups. The petition asked about protection from the French, who rumour had it were plotting to acquire sovereignty over New Zealand and to seek revenge for the death of Marion du Fresne [Ph 5.15.04]. In more general terms the petition had a strategic intent to develop an alliance at the highest level between rangatira, and that was something (as we probably heard before too) that Hongi and others had in mind when Hongi went to England and met the King. It was a significant step in terms of reaching out beyond local circles, but it was one that accorded with existing approaches in developing cross cultural relationships. So the appointment of James Busby was seen as a step towards what the petition sought, namely a strengthened relationship, I should add, between the Crown and Ngapuhi.

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Moving down to paragraph 14, bottom of page 4. The adoption of a flag by northern rangatira was another step towards formalising the alliance between local leaders and the Crown. The flag was symbolic of this alliance, one that would also safeguard and strengthen their mana. 5 In March 1834 Busby invited local Maori leaders to discuss the importance of protection of ships in open seas and the importance of having a recognisable identity. The idea the flag would assist Maori in their trading efforts by having a recognised [indistinct 5.16.28] for their vessels, one that would also demarcate them from pirates. Britain would acknowledge the flag and afford it due protection, and as we know, the flag became known as the flat of independent tribes. Now moving to Ti Tore is kind of reflective of the kind of leadership that was exercised at the time in terms of initiative. 15 Local Maori leaders took other steps at this time to strengthen their relationship with the Crown and with the King. And so, in 34, influential leader Ti Tore from Kororreka utilised his relationships with Pakeha to communicate further with the King. From Whangaroa on 24 June he dictated a letter to Yates with the hope that as an allay the King could be called upon if required, so the idea of rangatira Te rangatira was strategically important. He Whakaputanga the alliance with the British rangatiras and means of enabling northern leaders to exercise their mana continue to be important throughout the 1830s. The declaration was approached with the overriding incentive to protect and enhance existing ways of hapu life and to promote security and development. For that reason, broadening and confirming the alliance already made between northland Maori and the Crown was an important factor to support the declaration. It was a formalisation of the relationship. 30 The declaration also secured recognition of mana rangatiratanga in an international context. Rangatira had requested that the declaration be sent to the King and the King then responded with his full support. So there are themes are continuing of relationships at the highest level. So, Busby had his views for what he wanted to achieve but more importantly Maori did have an interest in the declaration for their own reasons. It provided opportunity for them to affirm their mana by receiving recognition at the highest level by the Kings, as said. A related reason for the declaration was Busbys interest in developing a form of political development for Maori. Busby had indicated that he intended to build a parliament house for Maori where they could discuss matters of wide interest to them. With these motives in mind Busby called northland rangatira together.

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A meeting took place at his residence in Waitangi on 28 October 1835 attended by around 35 Ngapuhi leaders. Missionaries and Busby acted as scribe and produced a paper that became known as He Whakaputanga. Northern rangatira, representing a significant diversity of hapu, continued to sign it throughout 36, 37, 38 and I think also 39. A key part of the first clause was Ka whakaputa i te rangatiratanga o to matou whenua. Declared the independence of our country. The sense of the second clause was to assert the rights and responsibilities of rangatira to exercise their authority, mana, o te whenua mana tangata and to protect them from encroachment. And the third clause concerned meeting at Waitangi in Autumn annually to discuss laws for peace and order and hokohoko, which is translated as trade.

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The final clause concerned informing the King, advising him of the care Maori had for settlers and to ask for his assistance as a parent for their infancy and to enable them to exercise their rangatiratanga. I am just going to quickly diverge here for a moment to this question about parent or matua. My understanding, from what I have read, is Maori certainly did not see themselves as infants looking up to their parents and that they then did not have a view unless they consulted and looked up to them. The idea of matua is where hear today, rangatira. It is important to recognise the mana of those to whom you want to build a relationship with and we hear it in our whaikrero. E te rangatira e te matua. I think the values underpinning that sense is the way I recognise you, your mana, then I expect also to receive the reciprocal. The British law system was considered useful but only in so far as it made sense to Maori, was relevant and could be integrated into the existing system.

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Busbys idea of a Maori government through the confederation of chiefs that had the legislative responsibilities where laws would have general application across tribal clinical boundaries was not to work because it was foreign to, did not fit the existing kinship system of penalties and rewards. However, the confederation provided another layer of formal communication between Maori and the Crown and strengthened the existing alliance between them; it was a forum for discussion and debate on issues of common interest. It also supported hapu in delivering their own forms of hapu control. Rangatira who could not attend the Hui were very supportive of the concept of He Whakaputanga rangatiratanga or a new level of chieftainship and of collective leadership, as indicated in a letter by several northern leaders in 1835. 215

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A Maori King, paragraph 21. While leadership continued to be exercised by several rangatira in relation to their kin groups throughout the 1830s and later. The idea of authority vested in a single leader like a King was in fact proposed by Hakiro in 1839, and there are other examples of the sort of idea being floated elsewhere. Tmati Wakanene also had apparently considered the idea of a great chief, probably in 1834, with good Maori and good Pakeha coming together to root out the bad from the land. King William seemed a good candidate, in his view, given his many ships and soldiers strategic alliance thinking perhaps. Despite being well meaning the idea did not gain traction within northland as there did not appear to be any significant need to go to such lengths to ensure their rangatiratanga would be protected not least since the policital system placed heavy emphasis on kin group autonomy and independence, as opposed to a system where a monarchy would exercise control over a wider community of subjects. Northland rangatira were quick to take advantage of new opportunities to better administer to their economic, social and political needs. As discussed, trading relationships in the first chapter of the report new forms of commerce, travelling abroad to acquire new ideas and muskets, developing relationships with missionaries and learning new skills, communicating directly with the King, receiving Busby in their midst and accepting a flag were all directed to enhancing their independence, their authority, development and wellbeing in other words, their rangatiratanga or their mana. The declaration was all part of that general direction and by supporting the declaration they expected that these opportunities would continue, and so the declaration provided another level of recognition.

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So this is chapter 3, this is the treaty signing context and I will try and truncate this as best and try and retain a sense of what the chapter is about. Although rangatira were both for and against the governor remaining in New Zealand, and by implication for and against the treaty, a position common to all chiefs with a desire to protect their rangatiratanga in relation to their people and to their estates. The discussions that lead up to the signings were essential. Hui were held throughout Tai Tokerau and at Te nohoanga o ng tau o ng rangatira next to Teti Marae at Waitangi. What is important was that emphasis on the korero and the dialogue would have been essential much more so than what the written words were. So this summary here has two parts there is a contextual part and what the motivations of the Crown was. It is covered very well by many authors, and then the second part concentrates on the rangatira perspectives, and as I mentioned at the beginning of this summary we

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are constrained by the kinds of sources that we have to rely on and there is the written sources but equally, more importantly, are the oral. Moving to paragraph 26. For Maori in northland, compared to other parts of the country they had several years of experiences of Pakeha obviously through trade and so on. Relationships had developed not only within their rohe but also offshore. Notable among those experiences are Hongi Heke and King George, relationships that developed following Te Morengas [Ph 5.26.27] visit to Australia, the relationships between local Ngapuhi leaders and Busby, and the relationships between Ngapuhi and missionaries. Of course these relationships varied some were positive, some were not at all. But this back ground was sufficient for some at Waitangi to make initial conclusions about not supporting the Governor or The Treaty. Te Kemara of Ngati Kawa was one Bay of Islands leader who expressed concern in light of past land transactions with missionaries, and we have heard a little korero about that yesterday as well. Other chiefs, including Rewa, Kaweti shared doubts recalling past wrongdoings and had limited faith in James Busby, who was considered ineffective in dealing with local affairs. 20 Orerahi Hakiro and Tareha voiced concern that a new authority would be seen as greater than their own. Although some grievances were against the missionaries and Busby over land the concerns were also about a clash of cultural values as they related to land and wider implications of the loss of authority and control if they signed. At stake was their mana. A counter position was presented by other northern leaders; Pukututu was less sceptical and asked the Governor to remain. He was critical of those who were not in favour of British authority, implying that their loss was their own doing and not the fault of missionaries, Busby or others. But by contrast to others he did not have the same kinds of experiences. Other notable Ngapuhi leaders supportive of the idea of a Treaty included Pumuka of Roroa, Parerahi of Ngai Tawake, Rawiri of Ngti Tautahi, Hone Heke of Matarahurahu, Hakitara, Tamati Wakanene and Patuone. Support was not given though without expectations or conditions. I think that is quite an important point to say. Hekes support was given on the basis that The Treaty would enable his authority to be maintained, if not further enhanced, and that protection would be provided. The implication was that by not supporting The Treaty Maori would be worse off. Peace and order were key reasons for supporting. Nene emphasised that prosperity would follow having British settlers and the benefits of having a Governor to suppress warfare and cannibalism. Nene was concerned that the Governor ensure that Maori never become slaves, that their lands and customs be protected and that there be a father to them. And as I mentioned, this latter comment was not about 217

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being subservient but was rather about respect to Hobson which Nene then expected would be reciprocated. Te Tiriti was an opportunity for existing relationships to develop and for reciprocity between the British authority and rangatira to develop. Maori did not understand the idea of setting sovereignty and they did not, and certainly did not see themselves as submissive to a greater authority. Paragraph 29 from 10 February The Treaty began its journey around the country, starting with Te Waimate mission then Rangaungu here , Kaitaia and Waitemata to obtain further moko signatures. Similar to the Waitangi meeting, explanations were given about the Treaty at Hokianga Hui and several rangatira vociferously opposed it. Others, such as Mohi Tawhai and Aperahama Taonui offered support even if given in caution. However, despite the opposition at the Hokianga Hui, like at Waitangi, they did not prevent them from signing. More signatures were in fact acquired at Hokianga than at Waitangi. Unlike their initial reception at Waitangi and Hokianga, the meeting at Kaitaia was on the whole positive. The same principles stated in various ways at both Hokianga and Waitangi meetings were echoed at Kaitaia, namely the need for both parties to act with integrity and goodwill, Nopera Parakareao said that. That mana would continue to be exercised Nopera again, Richard Taylor - peace, order, partnership and unit. Commerce was also seen as important for advancement. It was believed that The Treaty and the Governor would bring these advantages and were key reason why The Treaty was supported. Like Hokianga, more signed at Kaitaia than at Waitangi. Briefly, other accounts of the Waitangi meeting I really wanted to emphasise actually the korero given by Sir James Henare in a case, the lands case in 87. 30 His account of the meeting was based on oral history. In it he states that although Maori oppose The Treaty was in fact symbolic opposition. Token opposition would not have been given without. Opposition was indeed in important statement in itself because it indicated the caution with which the chiefs appended their moko. It also suggests that support was conditional on the issues raised and the speeches of opposition. Paragraph 34 In all, about 240 northland leaders affixed their moko or signatures to the Waitangi copy of Te Tiriti at various times throughout Tai Tokerau in 1840. Experiences with the missionaries were significant not only for what was learnt and the alliances made but also for paving the way for others who missionaries respected, to establish relationships with Maori. Most speakers were Christian and saw the Governor as an extension of their network with the missionaries. Northern Maori had many positive and negative views about The Treaty. In general support was given, even if cautious, on the basis of the existing systems of authority continuing and of their seeing the value in 218

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entering into a new level of partnership. recognise their authority.

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Signing was with a forward thinking mentality which had mokopuna or future generations in mind. And that theme, I remember the Hui that we held and this research was being done came out quite a bit. They did not know or understand what British sovereignty would mean in practice although there were concerns that it may usurp the authority of chiefs. Support was therefore conditional for many chiefs and dependent upon the Governor fulfilling the expectations to protect their customary authority, even if not also to provide economic benefits, peace, security and justice. Te Tiriti represented a continuation of a relationship for many and offered protection of mana whenua and rangatiratanga. Customarily the protection of authority over lands and people were foremost to hapu leaders because they were directly concerned with the groups political economic survival and wellbeing. They continued to be essential in 1840 and The Treaty appeared to offer security in these terms, aided by missionary advice. The Governor was permitted to remain in New Zealand and fulfil his promises but he was on probation. Signing was not the end of the matter, it was just a beginning. ?? JC Tena koe, Dr Kawharu. That is the most relevant stuff in the lead up to that period, at the signing of Te Tiriti and the rest of it Mutu i kona Ka mutu i konei n reira e te tkuta, tn rawa atu koe ki a koe te kaiwhakaw Kei te t mai ttahi hei waiata tautoko m

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Tn koe e Merata ka nui te mihi atu ki a koe e whai nei i ng tapuwai o t papa a Hugh. Kti, I k atu o tr I would like to complement you. Thank you very much, Merata for following the footsteps of your father. Because I have read the full report and you have provided through your research the scholastic evidence that underpins many of the things that have been produced in the oral statements by witnesses throughout this hearing. Thank you very much for that. Tn koe. Pita? Judge, just a moment please. E Renata e pai ana kore e hiahia ana kia haere e mamae tonu ana t ngkaku, waiho k e te rangatira mku pea e pikau te mamae ki roto I t ngkau. Kia mhio ai t ttou huihuinga kua oti te whanga ki te mamae e Renata. Mn mku e mea atu ki a koe ka nu ake tangohia I a koe. Ka oti t ttou kaupapa e Renata, koia tn ka tuku atu ki a koe I tnei w.

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Pita? Ki te taumata Heoi an e te tiati e ttou m me whakarane ake au i ng huatanga o ng krero a tnei o ng matua Erima ki a Renata me te rongo atu I te mamae o t ngkau e Renata. Heoi an ko ahau an ttahi me whakaiti I mua I a koe I runga an I tn toto he atao innahi. N reira e mihi atu ana ki a koe heoi an me krero tonu, me haere tonu. N reira e mihi ana ki a koe me t whnau katoa, tamariki. Just to add onto the words of Erima, prostrate myself before you Renata and because of our little debate yesterday, but we should carry on and I acknowledge you and your family and your children who have come here. N reira e ttou m kua tae tnei w ki te mutunga o te r tuawh, te wiki tuatoru. Mai I te tmatatanga o ng kaikrero m ng hap ko Hinerangi, tae noa ki a Abe, n, ki a Merata e krero mai nei e mihi atu ki a koe m n krero me te maumahara an hoki ki t papa.

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This is the end of Day 4 of Week 3. From the commencement of the evidence from the hapu today from Hinerangi to Abe and then unto Mereta I would like to thank you all. And acknowledging your debt. PT Tomorrow we are starting at 8.45. We will start sharp at 8.45, and for those of us who are going up to the Hui mate shortly after this, once we have finished the karakia and the krero whakarpopoto i te r, kua haere tn tira ki Peria, n reira e hoatu ana te w ki te taumata kia karakiangia ai ttou. The taumata to offer their prayers to close off our day. We have closed our day.

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KARAKIA Trans Oh, the Son of God, take away the sins of the world. Oh, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, take away the sins of the World. Forgive us. Oh Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on us. Our Father who art in Heaven hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory forever and forever. Amen. May through the grace of God that we cannot estimate, cleanse and clear our minds and our intellects in our unending love to the Lord and his Son, Jesus Christ and hold fast to the grace of God, the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit. Evening Adjournment

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WEEK 3 DAY 4 SESSION 4 [5.43 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 1 STARTS
Hearing Resumes KARAKIA 5 Trans Here we are, thy servants who prostrate ourselves before you, a Jehovah, as we offer up our words of praise and glory and honour to you. You have cared for us in days past unto this time here, unto the completion this afternoon, and it is our hope, oh Jehovah of the Myriads, that you gaze down upon this congregation and for those who have passed on to your realm, and may they rest in peace and abide the Lord, and returning to we, the congregation here today, as we sit under the shelter of Jehovah of the Myriads as he gives light to those in darkness and for those ailing he raises their spirits and may peace rain upon us all now and forever, and the maunga to support now and forever, Amene. [Inaudible 8.47.46]. I would like to thank our Minister for our prayers this morning. Tn koe e Te Hapai, tn koe I te huatanga o te karakia I tnei ttou mtua I whrikitia ai I te ata nei mai I te tmatatanga o tnei hui I te Rtapu n P Henare Tait I te Rtapu I mahia mai ttahi karakia I roto I te whare nei. Tata rua haora tn karakia kia pai ai te wiki katoa, tae noa mai ng karakia ia r, tae noa ki tnei karakia I te ata nei e haere tonu ana t ttou kaupapa. Thank you, Te Hapai, for supporting the prayers offered up by our elder this morning. From the commencement of this Hui on Sunday last, it was Pa Henare Tate who blessed our Hui with prayers, was almost two hours long so that the whole week would be peaceful. So from that time unto the prayer this morning, we still maintain consistency with the task at hand. I think everyone is used to the programme, you know what times are morning tea and lunch. Our speaker this morning is Samuel Carpenter, Tribunal Commissioned Kaikrero providing evidence on He Whakaputunga and Te Tiriti, but with particular focuses that he has been commissioned to provide. So we are not going to hold back, we are going to launch straight into it, I know that people arrive, and before we go to morning tea there are a couple of panui about how we are going to conclude the day et cetera, but I will wait until there are more people here. Otherwise, the wardens have just asked that as people come in, and it a bit hard to tell this to people who havent arrived, but over the course of the day if people can come up to the front and fill up the sides, so that the people who come in afterwards can sort of fill up from the back as they come in. Otherwise e te tiati e mihi ana ki a koutou o te Taraipiunara, te Karauna, e Anaru koutou m e te whare umu, ng roia tae noa ki a ttou

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katoa e te kaikrero e Samuel, Tom e mihi ana ki a kaurua, kia ora an ttou katoa. Trans 5 JC Greetings to you, Judge, members of the Tribunal, Crown team, the lawyers, and to all the speakers, Samuel and Tom, and to all of us. Tn koe e Pita. Tuatahi ki t ttou kaiwhakarite ng mihi ki a koe nu an I tuku ng whakamoemiti, ng whakawhetai ki te Runga Rawa kia pai haere ng mahi o tnei r, kia tutuki pai te kaupapa kei mua I a ttou. Thank you this morning for our prayer to ensure that our work goes smoothly. I just want to take the opportunity to explain to people about the two witnesses that we will hear from today, Samuel Carpenter and Dr Anne Salmond, they are not Crown witnesses and they are not claimant witnesses. The Tribunal has asked them to undertake research to help us, and also help this inquiry. So just so people are clear, neither of them are here on behalf of the Crown or the claimant, in essence they are independent researchers that we have asked to look at certain aspects of He Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti and come along and explain what they have found. So just so everyone is clear about those, and with that, I would hand it over to Mr Bennion. TB Trans TB 25 Tn koutou, te rp whakamana I te Tiriti o Waitangi tn koutou katoa. Greetings everyone, to the members of the Tribunal and to everyone. Counsels name is Bennion, sir, and we have Mr Carpenter here, I am his legal guardian for the day, since he is neither claimant nor Crown, he is open to potential questions from both sides, so, sir, you will have his evidence, it is A17, and a presentation of it, it is going to come up on a PowerPoint as he presents it, and he has got about a 30-50 minute presentation, and then questions, sir. So without further ado, I will call Mr Carpenter. Kia ora. Ka whakarongo ake au ki te tangi a te manu nei a te Matui. Tui , tui, tuituia. Tuia I runga, tuia I raro, tuia I roto, tuia ia waho, tuia ki te muka tangata I tkea mai I Hawaikinui, Hawaikiroa, Hawaiki Pmamao. Tuia ki te hono wairua kia k ake au ka ao, ka ao, ka awatea tihei mauri ora ki te whei ao ki te ao mrama. N, e tika ana kia tukuna atu ng mihi ki te Runga Rawa m na nei mnaakitanga I hia nei ki runga I te tangata, mai r an tae noa ki tnei w n reira whakakroria tona ingoa. Te whare e t nei, te marae e takoto nei, tn krua. Ki te hunga mate rtou ng rangatira, ng ariki kua wheturangitia kua hingahinga mai I te wao nui a Tane haere, haere, haere atu r. Ka huri au ki te hunga ora I te taumata tapu tn r koutou, e te tpu whakaw tn r koutou. I ng kaimahi a te Karauna tn r koutou hoki. E ng rangatira, e ng ariki o Ngpuhi nui tonu, tn r koutou e te whare tn koutou,tn koutou, kia ora r koutou katoa.

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I listen to the song of this bird of matui, it binds above and binds below, and binds without and binds within, and binds man, who emanated from Hawaikii, and I say it is dawn, it is dawn, it is the world of light. I would like to add my acknowledgements to the Lord, God, for his blessings upon the people, so glory to his name. To the ancestral house, and the marae without, I greet you. To those who have passed on, to the distinguished people who are no longer amongst us, we say farewell. And to the living, any with Te Tamata hapu and to the members of the Tribunal, and to the Crown team, and to the Chiefs, to the distinguished people of Ngpuhi nui tohu in our house, greetings. Ko Pukekohe te maunga, ko Waikato te awa, ko Bombay te waka, ko Ng Hau e Wh te marae, ko Ngi Te Tiriti te iwi, ko Samuel David Carpenter ahau, huri noa I te whare kia ora mai ttou katoa.

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Pukekohe is the mountain, Waikato is the river, Bombay is the waka, Nga Hau E Wha is the marae, and Ngai Te Tiriti is the iwi. My name is Samuel David Carpenter, greetings. To further introduce myself, I have conjoint arts and law degrees from the University of Auckland, and I have practised law for five years. I have an MA, Master of Arts, in New Zealand History with distinction from Massey University. I have also recently graduated with a Diploma in Te Reo Mori from Tai Tokerau Wananga North Tech.

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Samuel Carpenter reads to his Brief [8.55 am]


JC 25 CD Kia ora Mr Carpenter. If you can just stay there. Has there been a working out of how we proceed with questions? Would it be counsel first and then the Crown? Sir, we have just been having a bit of a discussion about it. This witness is a neutral witness so it does not really matter who goes first, and just having a look at the line-up of who does want to ask questions, it seems that pretty much every counsel along the front and the back bench and those ones in the cheap seats that could not find a bench, they all want to question this witness. So rather than start off with claimant counsel then skip to the Crown and then back to claimant counsel, it would probably be cleaner if the Crown start, exhaust their questioning and then leave it to us to maybe come along and mop up, to use the words of Te Ihi tito Mr Irwin? Sir, I thought that this issue had been resolved. I understood that your decision was that the claimants were to question this witness first and the Crown was to question afterwards. So I am more than happy to continue with that process. We will start with who is first? Is it you, Mr Pou, or Mr Campbell? It is Mr Duncan. Campbell Duncan.

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Duncan, sorry. As I have said, sir, and as you most graphically realise, this hearing has been shifting sands and a tumultuous harbour, as you will, and what I am suggesting, sir, is just to keep things a lot cleaner, just to get the Crown out of the way so that the Crown can actually have its turn and use up all its time. I do not see why they have to go last, it is a neutral witness and it just makes it easier, sir, rather than breaking it all up. We will start with Mr I think there is more counsel than the Crown. We will star with Mr Duncan. We will give all counsel a chance first. Mr Duncan? Okay, as your Honour pleases. Before I - - Sorry is it proposed I have got a list here, then you, Mr Pou and then shall we just move through the first row and then back to the second row? Your Honour, like the first draft of Te Tiriti, the list that I handed up did not actually have positions of where people were going and my friends have put their signatures down in order of the way they wish to proceed. So I will just go through and give you an idea of where we are going with questioning. I will be going first, then Mr Te Kani Williams will be second, followed by Mr Pou, then we will have Mr Doogan who will have to make his way up from the back, then Annette Sykes, Mr Miharo Armstrong, then Gerald Sharrock, followed by Linda Thornton, then Mr Tipene Potter who indicated he wished to ask questions, I am not sure whether he is here or not, Moana Tuwhare and then finally Mr Daniel Watkins. So, your Honour, I am in your hands, but that is the order that my friends have indicated they wish the cross examination to proceed. We will start with you, Mr Duncan.

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Campbell Duncan questions Samuel Carpenter [9.46 am]


30 CD Thank you your Honour. Morena Mr Carpenter, my name is Campbell Duncan, counsel for a number of claimants in this inquiry including Mr Rima Edwards, who gave evidence in the first week. I would just like to, first of all, turn to your terms of reference. You would agree that both the terms of reference for your commission and the report you completed should be confined to James Busbys and Henry Williams conceptions of the declaration of independence and The Treaty of Waitangi, is that correct? Well, obviously primarily. But, as I have said in the summary, they were seeking to, of course, address or speak into the Mori world and find the right words and approach each document in context in the appropriate way in the cultural context. So yes, my brief is confined to Williams and Busby. Taiho, let him answer the question please.

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Sorry, sir, I hate to interrupt. So just that we can be clear about what counsel are trying to do, Mr Duncan is trying to explore what this witness has said for the benefit of his clients. It is his job here now to attest the assertions that Mr Carpenter has made in his report. Every time somebody interrupts it breaks the flow that Mr Duncan is trying to achieve and at the end of it Mr Duncan might be trying to pin Mr Carpenter up against the wall. Every time you interrupt, every time you interrupt you allow him out and you take away from what Mr Duncan is trying to achieve. That is not fair to either Mr Duncan or the clients that he actually represents. So I would like we actually brought this hearing to Hokianga so that people could be respected while they were giving their views up here and I would like to think that for those reasons, and that is what the taumata assured us right at the start that we could actually allow this process to happen. If you have any issues that you would like to raise, come up the front, put your questions to one of the counsel and then they might be able to get explored. But actually allow Mr Duncans clients claimants the respect that this taumata promised. Thank you Mr Pou. Sir, it is a little bit like the debates that happened on The Treaty grounds I think. Mr Carpenter, I think what you were if I am correct, if I could summarise your answer, you were saying yes, I was looking at what Busby and Williams understandings of The Treaty, or the declaration in Busbys case were, so putting it through their filter? Yes, primarily that is the case, yes. Thank you. Now I take you to your summary of evidence at the bottom of page 5, top of page 6. You are talking about the issues that you will be exploring. In particular, you say on page 6 With a few exceptions, present day Ngapuhi or Mori views of these events were not consulted. However, Ngapuhi views are implied by the text of the documents themselves, missionary commentary on them and from the surrounding context. Do you see that? Yes. There is a footnote on page 6 of your summary which says that you spoke to Mr Rima Edwards, that you considered Dr Manuka Henares thesis and you attended claimant hui in Kaikohe on 6 November 2009. That footnote is not included in your November report, is it? That is correct. And also, Mr Carpenter, I understand that you have also attended both weeks one and at least week one, maybe even week two of the hearings? Only week one. Week one, but you heard the kaikorero there? Yes. 225

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Okay. So you can confirm that on occasion your report indirectly relates to Mori understandings? Well, what I am - - That is what you have said. Yes, well what I am saying is that I am looking at the texts of he whakaputanga and Te Tiriti, I am looking at what Busby and Williams primarily said about those. Now, I am looking at the surrounding context which, of course, includes their interaction with rangatira and also to an extent includes rangatira interaction with New South Wales and so on. Mr Carpenter, you could understand that claimants may take issue with you saying that Ngapuhi views are implied by the text of the documents themselves, missionary commentary on them and from the surrounding context, particularly when the focus of this inquiry is to hear traditional korero and for claimants to stand in place of their tupuna and for claimants to directly challenge the accuracy of the widely held understandings of the text of these documents. The missionary understandings and the surrounding context you would agree you would understand that? Yes. You would, of course, agree that you are not an expert in Ngapuhi tikanga on issues of Ngapuhi tikanga you would defer to the knowledge of the kaikorero? Yes, I would. As to your understanding of Te reo, and specifically the Ngapuhi understanding of Te Tiriti, you would defer to the kaikorero understandings as they are experts in Te reo and the Ngapuhi mita in understandings of Te Tiriti? Well, generally I would, yes. I think though that I have interpreted these texts as missionary Mori documents, at least in part, and therefore the context of them as, of course, the Mori world and the Aotearoa context, but also the context of Europe and also the bible as well. It is an interesting side argument, Mr Carpenter; you describe these documents as missionary Mori documents. But, of course, Te Tiriti is between the Crown and Mori, isnt it? That is correct. Yes. So I will just revisit a previous question, that you would agree that in relation to Mori understandings of he whakaputanga and Te Tiriti, you would defer to the kaikrero witnesses that you heard in hearing week one on the basis of their expertise of Ngpuhi tikanga and their traditional knowledge?

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Well, I would certainly defer to them in terms of the oral traditions because those I have not looked into as such. You have looked into the understandings of James Busby and Henry Williams? That is correct. And their world view. Yes. Yes. You would agree that your report is based on documentary evidence and a text in context approach to He whakaputanga and Te Tiriti to examine Busby and Williams understandings of these two texts? Yes. Furthermore, you would have to agree that the way that your report is based on documentary evidence and a text in context does not align with the knowledge and understandings of the kaikorero witnesses who have presented evidence before this Tribunal, ie they have relied on their oral traditions, the whare wananga, those understandings. Sorry, can you repeat the question? That your report is based on documentary evidence and text in context and that that does not necessarily align with the knowledge and understandings of the kaikorero witnesses who have presented evidence before the Tribunal? Well, it does not no, it does not necessarily align, yes. That is not to say that there cannot be some correspondence between what those witnesses said and what I have said. But where there is a departure in your report from the evidence given by those kaikorero witnesses, would you defer to their knowledge? Well, I would have to defer to it. I will just take you to paragraph 48 of your summary. Do you have that? Yes. At the bottom of that paragraph you say Mori had given up government and not sovereignty to Queen Victoria, yet if there was any difference in Williams mind between the two terms, he did not show it. Rather, on the balance of evidence Williams thought sovereignty and government were identical terms. I would suggest to you that there is a contradiction in those two sentences. Are you saying that Williams understanding was different to the Mori understanding?

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There I am talking about Williams understanding of those two terms, sovereignty and government. I am not talking about the Mori understanding at that point. Okay. Throughout your report you make extensive use of Samuel Johnstons dictionary first published in 1755 and you use the 1824 edition as a contemporary source and there is a number of places in your report where you have obviously referenced Dr Johnstons first major dictionary. Do we know whether Henry Williams had a copy of Johnstons dictionary in his bookshelf? No, we do not know that. Perhaps Williams did not read Blackstones commentaries either, is that correct, do we know? We do not know whether he did or not, no. Now, you obviously have a legal background as well. When you were sitting in your lectures you take back to I do not know if you went to Auckland University or one of the other universities in New Zealand, but you were doing statutory interpretation, to understand the way a word is used in legal contexts would a dictionary be the first port of call to understand what those words in that statute would be? Well, if I recall correctly, the first principle is the plain and ordinary meaning of the words. Okay. So which could differ quite significantly from a dictionary definition? Well, no. I think quite the opposite. I think dictionaries will generally the idea of a dictionary is that it encapsulates what the common understanding of the words are. So hence why I referred to Johnstons dictionary as the authoritative dictionary on the English language at that time. But surely the context to which that word is used is equally important and other interpretative instruments, such as parliamentary debates, those sorts of things, would help to the understanding of that word or those words? Well, context is, of course, important. I will just take you to paragraph jumping around here a bit, back to paragraph 46. You talk about there essentially you would agree with me that the last sentence of that paragraph, Constitutional monarchy, therefore the cession of sovereignty, did not imply the loss of chiefly rights. I just put it to you that the definition of constitutional monarchy that you have explored still implies a loss or diminution of authority or power though, doesnt it? For example, regardless of how a government is structured, there is still, in this particular model, an authority that those things have to spring from? At the end of the day there has to be a source of that authority if you are using this particular model. 228

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Are you talking about constitutional monarchy? Yes. Yes, there does. So it is not implying, is it, some sort of pluralistic model, is it? Well, the authority needs to be located somewhere, but, the authority or the sovereignty, but that does not mean to say that different actors within the one polity can share that authority. Say, for example, a recent example where we had the Scottish parliament that was established in 1998, that parliament is not completely sovereign, is it, ie at the end of the day their authority comes from statutes passed in Westminster? You are asking about the current day Scottish parliament? Yes, I mean just as an example. Yes. Well, I am not an expert on the Scottish parliament of the present day, but I understand what you are getting at, yes. The discussion we have just been having, the subtleties and nuances of the Westminster model of government, for example, that is not something that people even today really completely understand, do they? I mean, what I am meaning is the general publics understanding of the Westminster model system of government, in our case now the mixed member proportional system is something which is pretty complex. Well, I would have to agree it is not necessarily well understood. Yes. So Mr Williams understanding of the Westminster model, him not being say a member of parliament or a constitutional lawyer would have been, I put it to you, limited? Well, I mean, it is a question of how much he understood the inner workings of Westminster and who was actually pulling the strings or whatever. But I think my point on this is that he believed that his legal system, his monarchy, however you describe it, protected and upheld rights and liberties. If he had quite a limited understanding of that model of government when he was trying to explain it to people who were not involved and viewed in that particular society, it is going to become even more difficult, isnt it, when you have got issues of language concepts? Yes, except that I think he saw, as I have argued, the chiefs as potentially a type of aristocratic nobility along the English model and, of course, the aristocracy was well, at least the people with the land and estate were the ones that held the power in the British constitution and so in fact, it is not referenced in my report or my summary because I only

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came across this reference the other day, but at one point quite early on he refers to chiefs as, in time, the dukes and earls of New Zealand. CD 5 SC CD SC 10 CD JC 15 So I take it from what you are saying that Henry Williams at least did not conceive of any other potential models of organising power based upon his view of the way British society was at that time? In terms of the way -? That government his perception of how a government in New Zealand might be structured. Well, I think you have got to look not just at the domestic context, but of course, the imperial context and the way that the empire took different forms. Thank you, Mr Carpenter. I have no further questions. I will hand you over to my friend, Mr Williams. Mr Williams?

Te Kani Williams questions Samuel Carpenter [10.07 am]


TKW Yes, kia ora, sir. I just apologise to the Tribunal. I was meant to have five minutes at the end of the process. I now find myself elevated, but nevermind. Kia ora Mr Carpenter, my name is Mr Williams, no relation to Henry Williams. I represent Patu Keha, Ngti Kuta and Ngti Kahu in this inquiry. Mr Carpenter, perhaps I would just like to focus on two of the questions that have been put to you by the Tribunal, which you were asked to address in your report. You have outlined, when you introduced yourself at the beginning of your summary, the questions that you were asked to address. But could I just ask you to turn to page 67 of your report, and in answering question - - Can you just give us a sec? Certainly, sir. We have got the summary, I have just got to get a copy of the report. What page was that, sorry? 67, sir. Thank you. I will be bouncing between his main report and the summary in questioning, sir. At page 67, Mr Carpenter, you in responding to the question outlined, that you consider that the question seeks an illumination of Williams understanding of He Whakaputanga, that is correct? Correct.

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So when you responded to this issue you appear to have focused somewhat on his missionary background. Had you considered his background and upbringing in flavouring your response, eg so we are clear he was English, correct? Correct. And he served in the British Navy? Correct. His upbringing by virtue of his father as a draper, you have suggested that his father supplied uniforms to the Navy? Correct. Three of his uncles in the Navy? Yes. And so I think, as you say, as a youngster he exhibited a keen desire to join his Majestys service, that is accurate? Yes. So these would be fairly strong indicators that he had a certain loyalty to a British position, wouldnt that be accurate? Can you repeat the question? Wouldnt that upbringing indicate a fairly strong loyalty to a British position? What do you mean by a British position? The fact that he was desirous of being part of a British Navy. Well, obviously, yes. Yes. So that is the answer I was seeking. So where you say at page 10 of your main report, referring to the biographer, Carlton, that his personality and outlook was being formed in part by his naval experience. That adds to the whole influence that Williams would be bringing to the translation, wouldnt it? Not just the missionary one, but his background as a representative within the British Navy. Pertaining to what exactly? Well, we are dealing with his interpretation or his translation of an English text of He Whakaputanga, so when you are dealing with his interpretation and translation of it, that also flavours how he might portray that translation? Well, I think generally - - 231

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You cannot just rely on a missionary position is what I am saying. That is correct. I mean, he - - Would you like to rephrase that question, Mr Williams? No, sir, I think it was accurate. My apologies, sir. A missionary background, sir, it is not just his missionary background which flavours - Can we just have quiet so we can hear the question please? Yes, sir. It is not just his missionary background which flavours his translation? Well, his naval background certainly flavours his general outlook on the world and I have, of course, pumped [Ph 10.12.46] out with that in my summary today, including pictures on the screen. Yes, all right. So just I suppose in turning to the texts of I will focus on He Whakaputanga first, just to check, you are not a linguist, are you? Not academically, no. No. Well, I mean, I think you have outlined that you have a law degree, yes? Yes, I have a law degree. As well as a Masters? Yes. As well as a Diploma in Mori? Yes. But that hardly makes you a linguist, does it, by way of your training? I have not studied linguistics, if that is what you mean.

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Yes, thank you. Could I just ask you to turn to page 2 of your summary, paragraph 3? You have outlined there the documentary sources, or some of them that you have considered in the drafting of your main report. Did you also consider any of the information that has been filed in this inquiry by some of the tangata whenua witnesses in its drafting? In the drafting of? Your report. My report. And the subsequent summary that arose. If I recall correctly, I think that my report was filed completed and filed before most, if not all of the tangatawhenua evidence for stage one was filed. Yes, all right. So can I assume, or you can tell me, whether or not you considered, for example, the evidence that has been filed by Professor Motu on behalf of Ngti Kahungunu in this inquiry? I have looked at that, I believe. But it is not incorporated with your report, is it? No, not as such. No, okay. For the Tribunals edification, that is documents A23 and A24. I will come back to that particular issue, Mr Carpenter. But at page 5, paragraph 10, and my friend, Mr Duncan, has also made some reference to this, you have described the texts, the Mori texts of the He Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti as being missionary Mori documents rather than Crown documents. I suppose to give myself some context here, going back a little; when the Tribunal commissioned you to provide a report for this inquiry, you do not call it a legal/Crown/Mori document, do you? Sorry, I do not understand the question. Well, you are looking the document you are saying is a missionary Mori document has been drafted by an individual who has a particular background such as yours; you have a particular background in law for example, for the benefit of supposedly Mori. In this situation you are drafting a document purportedly for the benefit of both the Crown and Mori because you are independent, but you do not call it a legal/Mori/Crown document, do you? It is a Tribunal commissioned document. It is a Tribunal commissioned report, yes. Yes, okay. So in this situation who commissioned Williams to do the translation?

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Well, he was asked by Hobson to complete the translation of The Treaty. Yes, so he was asked by the Crown, wasnt he? Well, in effect, yes. Yes. Thank you. He was not asked by missionaries to provide this document, was he, to provide the translation? No. No. Certainly was not asked by Mori to provide the translation, was he? Of The Treaty? No. No. And the translation he provided was of English text provided by the Crown, is that accurate? Yes. Thank you. But he was not merely translating the words, was he? He was providing an interpretation. Would that be fair? I think an interpretation is probably as good a word as translation. Yes, well they are quite distinct terms, so I think that also requires some exploration. Because I think at page 5 of your summary, again in the same paragraph 10, you are suggesting that it incorporated Williams perception of what the English text meant, dont you? Yes, I say that. Yes. So he is providing his own interpretation of the English to Mori people and not merely just translating the documents. Well, could you explain to me what your understanding of those words is so I can answer the question more appropriately? No, I will get to that as we go further along in my cross examination. But the question is, is he providing an interpretation or a translation? Well, I think in his mind he is providing both and. It is not either or, it is both and. All right. Because you talk, I think somewhat dismissively of the lost in translation position at page 6, paragraph 12, that is correct? I would not have said it was dismissive, I would have said it was cautionary.

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All right, cautionary is fine. You suggest there that in order to make that allegation you must ascertain what Williams thought he was doing at the time, yes? Yes. All right. So for the Tribunal to think about what he was doing at the time, I suggest to you that they would also need to, over and above the context you provided, take into account his English upbringing. Would that be fair? Of course. Okay. His training as a naval officer? Yes, generally. Yes. The fact that he was asked by the Crown to provide a translation of the Crowns works? Well, he was asked by the Crowns agent, Captain William Hobson, to provide translation. Effectively the Crown. As the Crown, yes. I mean, you are aware of the law of agency and how that applies, arent you? Yes. Yes, thank you. It is those words from the Crown which he has interpreted, translated or provided a perception of. Is that accurate? Yes. Thank you. All right; my next questions sort of follow on from the question put to you, your question four. Just again, dealing really with this lost in translation argument. You said you have read, or you have looked at the documents filed by Professor Motu. So are you familiar with the humpty dumpty principle which is outlined in document A23? If I recall correctly, that is the idea that words can be fragile in their meaning. I think the principle is words can mean what they mean and what the user of those words means, not what they are to be translated as. Would that be fair? No, I believe she is getting that from Bruce Biggs. That is correct. And he talks about with translation from one language into another the translator has two options. One, he can use an indigenous word for he can use an indigenous word in the target language to translate the word in the source language, or he can choose an introduced word or 235

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transliteration or whatever, and in effect ascribe to it a meaning that it may have because of the context. But whatever. TKW 5 SC TKW Yes, and I will come to this again. But the point is it is only the user of the word who actually understands the intention of the word, isnt it? It has not necessarily been communicated to the other parties, isnt it? Well, no, I would not agree that that is what Bruce Biggs is saying. All right, then let me continue. Professor Motu says that in 1835 there are no words in Mori that would accurately convey concepts such as sovereignty, independence or collective capacity. Do you disagree with that? Sorry, can you repeat the question? The question was Professor Motu in this article says that in 1835 there were no Mori words that accurately conveyed concepts such as sovereignty, independence or collective capacity. Do you disagree with that proposition? Sovereignty yes. Independence was independence the second one? It was. Well, I mean, once again it depends what independence means in the English context. But I mean, I would have thought that the idea of rangatiratanga or the status of a rangatira does actually confer or does actually imply the state of being independent of other authorities. So you are saying that the word though is accurately conveyed, that was the question, in Mori, accurately conveys independence? I think different people are going to have different views of that particular issue. Which is why I am obligated to put that view to you, given it is the evidence of my client which has been put on the inquiry, I have to put the question to you. Yes. This assertion is not only made by Professor Motu. She refers to the fact that Bruce Biggs also says the same thing. So do you continue to say that you do not agree with that proposition? What proposition? That there were no words that accurately convey sovereignty, independence or collective capacity? Well, I would not I am not sure that I would be able to comment decisively on whether there was or not.

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Yes, that is fine. So when you look at Williams translation of rangatiratanga, as you have in your report, in He Whakaputanga he translates independence as rangatiratanga, is that accurate? Yes. Okay. What does he translate rangatiratanga in as in The Treaty? Can you recall? He uses it to translate the full exclusive and undisturbed position of their lands, estates, forests and fisheries. Yes. So quite a distinct position from He Whakaputanga and then The Treaty, isnt it? Well, I accept that I think that when he is thinking of rangatiratanga when Williams is thinking of rangatiratanga I do not believe he is thinking just of property rights as just individual property rights held by individuals, but he is thinking of the status of chiefs in relation to hapu. So in that sense, the use of rangatiratanga in article two of The Treaty, or Te Tiriti, can be related to the use of rangatiratanga as independence in He Whakaputanga because he is using is to note the idea of chiefly independence. Yes, and the question I suppose for iwi is whether or not he was communicating that accurately to the people at the time, isnt it? Well that would be the question, yes. Yes. Professor Motu has a different view in that she says it suggests that the change in terminology was carefully scripted to avoid the notion of independence since Mori had supposedly ceded that to the Crown. Do you disagree with that proposition? Ceded what to the Crown? Sovereignty, independence. Sorry, can you ask the question again? Sorry, I will come back again. The assertion, I have been told that I have got one minute, sir, the assertion by Professor Motu is that the change in terminology used by Williams was carefully scripted to avoid the notion of independence since Mori had supposedly ceded that to the Queen. Well, I do not agree with that interpretation. All right, that is fine. Sir, I am probably going to take probably another five to 10 minutes. I am in your hands whether I do that now or continue after the break. Pita, he w pai tnei m te whakatau, kei a koe he pnui. We will take the break now. Pita has some panui first and then we will look to have a break for morning tea and come back after that. 237

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DISUCSSION Morning Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 1 [10.32 AM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 2 STARTS
5 Hearing Resumes PT Kua tae k mai ttahi krero, kei Ngti Manu ttahi hui mate ko Waina Wynyard. Kua haere k a Hone Pirihito ki tn hui mate, n reira e mihi ana ki tn whnau pani me t ttou whaea tuahine kua ngaro I te tirohanga kanohi. Heoi an kia mhio ai koutou kei Ngti Manu ttahi mate e takoto ana, kia ora ttou. There is bereavement at Ngati Whina Wynyard. Hone Pirihoto has gone to attend that bereavement and so we extend our condolences to the bereaved and the whanau at Ngti Manu. If we can just have a bit of quiet. Mr Williams? Yes, thank you, sir. Mr Carpenter, I do not have much more for you, but just continuing to focus on the terminology that was used. The term Kingitanga, that is derived from English, would you accept that? Yes. It is one of the transliterations you were referring to earlier in your oral presentation? Yes. Kawanatanga, a similar situation, yet again a word derived from the English term of governor? Yes. Both Biggs and Professor Motu say that in 1835 that there would have been little or no meanings that Mori could associate with Kawanatanga and Kingitanga. Do you disagree with that proposition? They would have associated little or no meaning? Yes. With those terms? Those terms. No, I do not agree. You do not agree with that? No. 238

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And the reason for your disagreement is? Well, some, few admittedly, chiefs had seen the English monarch. They -In particular can you say who? Hone in Waikato. And when? 1820. Right. So based on their interaction you are suggesting that all those who signed The Treaty had a concept or an understanding of Kingitanga and Kawanatanga? Well, no. But obviously it was discussed amongst rangatira. Does discussion, in your view therefore, mean understanding and comprehension? No, it does not necessarily mean comprehension. Yes, thank you. So when using those terms, and it was Williams who used those terms, he in using them would have been the only one to have understood what was meant by those terms, would that be accurate? No, I do not agree with that. You do not agree, okay. Can I ask you to turn to pages 156 and 157 of your main report? In these pages, or in this section, you discuss the use by Williams of the term Kawanatanga to describe sovereign authority in civil government. Is that accurate? Yes. Okay, and as I have just put to you, are you aware that apart from Motu and Biggs that there are other writers that are critical of his use of Kawanatanga as describing sovereign authority? Yes, I am aware of that. All right. So when Motu in quoting Biggs at page 22 of document A24, which I know you do not have before you, so I will read it to you, Biggs concludes that Mori were unlikely to have understood the word in the way the missionaries intended it to be understood in talking about Kawanatanga. So you disagree with that, just to be clear? Whether the chiefs understood it differently from the missionaries in effect? Yes. 239

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I think some chiefs probably did understand it differently from the missionaries. I think some perhaps were quite well aware of what a governor was and what a governor meant, to some extent, because they had seen it in New South Wales, they knew that the governor basically was at the head of that establishment in terms of courts and military and that sort of thing. So they knew they had seen in the flesh what a governor was. All of them? Some. A majority? I could not say for sure, but I would doubt that it was even a majority in the north, though I know that it was significant numbers that did go to New South Wales. Yes, but that is not the question I asked. Did a majority of the people who signed understand the term in your view? Well, I think if you look at Colenso, and admittedly I have not got that Colenso in my report or my summary, but from those discussions it is quite clear that chiefs understand that a governor is someone with a real authority and they are aware of his position in Australia and possibly other places. So people like Kawharu who says that, relating to Kawanatanga, there can be no possibility of the Mori signatories having any understanding of government in the sense of sovereignty or Claudia Orange in The Treaty of Waitangi where she says The single word Kawanatanga covered significant differences of meaning. It was not likely to convey to Mori the precise definition of sovereignty. You are disagreeing with their position? Well, I think you then have to define what sovereignty is before you can compare the two. We are talking about both of them are talking about the Mori understanding of Kawanatanga being sovereignty. What I am asking if you continue to disagree with the positions put by both of those people, Kawharu and Orange? I would have to disagree with them to some extent. And some extent would be? Well, I think that government, Kawanatanga, a Kawana is somebody who exercises definite authority. That is, I think, obvious to the rangatira at Waitangi and other places. In terms of the British view of what is going on, I think, as I have said, my evidence is that in Williams mind sovereignty was a kin to civil government.

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Yes, all right. Just a last series of questions, Mr Carpenter. At page 140 of your main report, can I just ask you to turn there? Yes. You have provided some text from The Treaty that says Kia whakaaetia i ng rangatira mori te Kwanatanga o te Kuini ki ng whi katoa o te whenua nei me ng motu, and you provided an English translation there, havent you? Mm'hm. You have not provided the text before that though, have you? Of the preamble? Yes. No. Professor Motu at page 21 of her document A24 has provided a literal translation of that text which reads Now, Victoria, the Queen of England, in her well meaning thoughts for the heads of the tribal groupings and the tribal groupings of New Zealand and out of her desire also to signal to them their paramount authority and their lands and so as to maintain peace with them and peaceful habitation also. That is a contextual factor which has not been added to this particular aspect of your report, isnt it? What particular aspect, contextual aspect? Are you just referring to the fact that I have not quoted the proceeding? Yes, and the context that goes with the proceeding aspect of the word. Well, I mean, it is true that I have not sighted the full preamble in this particular place. Yes, but in doing so you have been selective and it does not provide a full context to the whole phrase. Well, I think my point here is that the government based on the text, the government is to apply to both Mori and Pkeha. Yes, but what it misses though is that the recognition in Professor Motus view of the paramount authority of the chiefs over their land. Well, I have no problem with that. All right. Thank you, and on that note, sir, those are the questions that I have. Mr Pou?

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JP Kia ora Mr Carpenter. You will be glad to know that a lot of the contextual discussions that I sought to have with you have been discussed by Mr Williams. However, in his discussions with you, you are now asserting that your view should be taken in priority to those views that have been given by Claudia Orange and Professor Margaret Motu. So in that sort of context, I just want to ask you a little bit about your academic background. Youre Masters in Arts, what was that majoring in? History. History. The discussion that you have given here you say in page 8 is that it is a text in context; it is a socio-linguistic approach. Now, I know that you had a discussion with Mr Williams that you are not an academic linguist, but you are not a linguist at all, are you? You do not have a background in linguistics. Well, my reference there is to a particular movement of historical interpretation in the last 20 years which basically treats language as indicative of world view. So that is the reference to socio-linguistic approach, otherwise known as the linguist term. But you are not qualified, for instance, to take apart the language and to determine the Ngpuhi understanding of those terms as they appear within Te Tiriti. The Ngapuhi understanding? Well, as I have said, I have focused on Williams and Busbys understanding. And you say that Williams, Busby, Nene and Heke need to be understood within their particular world views. You actually have no comprehension of what the Nene or the Heke world views are, do you? Well, I would not say I have no comprehension. I mean, I - - However, if let me just we are going to have some evidence, some socio-linguistic evidence from Dr Patu Hohepa. You would not compare your knowledge to Dr Patu Hohepa, would you? No. And you would not compare the understandings and the context that you are giving here to the understandings that Mr Rima Edwards might have portrayed in the first week, would you? No, not at all. So where they asset a linguistic analysis or a view based on a linguistic analysis, your evidence should be seen as to having less weight than theirs? Well, I think you have to see what I am saying in the context of my commission and I think that what I am saying has to be brought into dialogue with what somebody like Mr Edwards is saying. 242

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But where they disagree with you, your evidence should be in the background and theirs should come to the fore. It depends what you are talking about. Lets go a little bit further. You say the socio-linguistic approach denotes a need to anthropologise the history and its views. You are not an anthropologist either, are you? No, not an academically trained anthropologist. Well, how are you an anthropologist if you are not one academically trained? Well, I mean, in the sense that I have not studied anthropology as such as a discipline in a university. You are either an anthropologist or you are not. Yes, you are? No, you are not? Well, I think the best history is a history that understands people in their context and understands their world view and I think that is what I have done with Williams and Busby. Now, we are going to have two anthropologists giving evidence, Dr Patu Hohepa, he has got a degree in anthropology and Dame Anne Salmond, she has got a degree in anthropology. So where they describe a world view based on an anthropological understanding of what is occurring, you should be deferring to them as well, shouldnt you, given their training? It depends on the subject matter. The subject matter? Lets be very, very clear. The subject matter is He Whakaputanga me Te Tiriti and the northern understanding of it and how it has been described. Lets not mince with words or try and snake around a whole lot of things. The matters that are before you are directly before Dame Anne Salmond and they are directly before Professor Patu Hohepa and what I am seeking to ask you is do you consider that your knowledge and your training should actually elevate your evidence to a status that is higher than that which is given by Dame Anne Salmond and Professor Patu Hohepa? Well, just briefly, I would not certainly not compare myself with Dr Hohepa in regard to the linguistic nature of te reo or anything like that and the same with Professor Salmonds anthropological expertise. However, what I have done in relation to Busby and Williams is I have placed them in their particular contexts, which is an attempt to anthropologise those two people and described their world view. I think Mr Williams has gone through in some depth that context, where that context arises within the naval backgrounds, the Army backgrounds and those sorts of things. So I am pleased that Mr Williams has actually done that. However, there are some issues that you have brought up. 243

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You have discussed the role of the Kawana and how Mori would have understood terms like Kawana. You have gone to a dictionary to find that understanding and you see to have ignored the way that Kawanatanga is referred to in the bible. Why have you done that? 5 SC No, I have not ignored the way it has been referred to in the bible. I have referenced the nature of Pontius Pilate as a Kawana in the New Testament, who governed a Kawanatanga, a province of the Roman Empire. But Pontius Pilate and the Mori understanding of those who were missionary trained, they always knew that he was not the sovereign, he was something less, yet you use a dictionary understanding to change, to advocate for a different position and now it seems that you are advocating rather than giving objective evidence, and I would like you to comment on that. Well, I think, as I have already said, these words need to be understood in their plain and ordinary sense and in their context, and that is the evidence that my report gives. And the context is not Johnsons dictionary. I think it is Johnsons dictionary that you refer to. The context is the bible, isnt it? Johnsons dictionary is irrelevant and how it depicts kawanatanga in that dictionary is actually quite irrelevant within the context of the discussions that are occurring between the missionary who is preaching from that book and those Mori who are listening to that message. Well, I think if you want to talk about Pontius Pilate then it is quite obvious that he has a mandate from the Roman emperor to govern that particular province of the empire. He is, as far as the empire is concerned, the one who is the head of that civil establishment and I think there is no difference between him in that sense and Governor Hobson in the New Zealand setting. But it is something less than sovereignty, isnt it? It is not sovereignty. You cannot compare it to sovereignty. So why do you? The hori old chestnut of sovereignty. Well, I think I have already explored what the word sovereignty not just the word but the embodiment of sovereignty in the form of a legislature is, in fact, how most people identified most British people identified the nature of the sovereign power as being a legislative body, and that is Kawanatanga. And now we are talking about how it is being passed over and how it is being informed to Mori, it is being informed at the same time that Mori are being told that they are going to be maintaining their tino rangatiratanga. So that Kawanatanga actually needs to be seen within that hierarchy, doesnt it? Which hierarchy? Well, Mori are being told that their tino rangatiratanga is going to be protected and there is this offer of Kawanatanga that is going to be 244

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made. That is the context, it is not the context of Johnsons dictionary, it is not the context that a governor is going to have the power of life and death over people. The context is is that Mori are maintaining that which they have maintained and that which is declared in He Whakaputanga, isnt that true? Well, I agree that the intent by and large was for Mori to retain customary authority and that is what tino rangatiratanga refers to. To attain? To retain. Retain, to just keep what they maintain the status quo, isnt it? Well, in respect of their own affairs, yes. Whose country is this at that time? You mean prior to -? In 1840, who does this country belong to? Well, Mori. So this country is their own affairs, isnt it? Yes. And the immigrants, the people that are coming here, they are not respecting Mori law, are they? Which people are you talking about? The sailors, the well, Jennifer Rutene talks about alcohol being brought into Horeke, she talks about the attempts to regulate alcohol through the chiefs of Te Popoto. Those sailors, those traders, they are not actually respecting those laws and Mori are seeking a way to get somebody to help them have their laws obeyed, arent they? Well, yes, and that is one of the main reasons why people like Henry Williams supported The Treaty, to control those very people. Exactly. Not to control Mori, to control those very people. Well, yes, to control those very people. And that is how Mori are being informed that it is to be the Pkeha that are to be controlled, not themselves. Tihei mauri ora, e te tpu tn [Indistinct Mori 24:02.9] e t ake nei e te Taraipiunara e te Kawana, koina ng krero ko taku hap kei roto I nei krero e t ana, e krero ana te rangatiratanga. Ko wai te tangata nei hei krero m taku hapu o taku whnau, tika k ng krero kia aro 245

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mai ki ng rangatira [indistinct 24:49.9] o Ngpuhi iwi whnui tonu hei krero tnei take. Trans 5 I stand here as a representative of some hap. Members of the Tribunal, Crown, my hap is being mentioned in this evidence. I stand here to say who is this person to speak of my hap and whnau? It is appropriate that the words should come from the members of the hap. He is still fresh behind the ears, he is still wet behind the ears and his consistent non answers is not good. I say conclude this evidence. What is the reason we are listening to this evidence? I just felt the need to express myself here because I was agitated and disturbed inside and the spirituality and the treasures of our ancestors are being compromised. You may not have been here before when Mr Pou explained that there are a number of people, of the lawyers who will be putting I think some of the same issues that you are talking about, there is still a number of lawyers to come who have questions for Mr Carpenter and I am presuming that some of the issues that you just raised there may be put to him as well. So we will wait for those questions to come through ng roia nei. Kia ttou m kia ttou. Mai nei werowero ki tnei kaikrero puta ai te pono o ttou matua tpuna ng krero kia haere, tukuna ng ptai kia haere, heoi an te pono mana an e whakaatu mai ki a ttou. Mihi ana ki a koe e te matua Oneroa e tika mrika wero, taku krero ki a ttou kia ttou kia ora mai. Ladies and gentlemen, let us be determined. It is through cross examination of this evidence that the truth of our ancestors will come to the fore. Let the questions be asked and he can show us where the depths of the truth are. I thank you, Oneroa, for your sentiments. You are quite correct. But I say to all of us, let us be consistent and hold our stance. Mr Carpenter, have you considered the evidence that Dame Salmond has put before this Tribunal? Anne Salmond? Yes, I have seen a draft. Have you considered her discussions on the difference between Ture and Tikanga? You will have to remind me exactly what she says. Well, from my memory, and I do not have a copy in front of me, she distinguishes the two saying that Ture is a law that might have its origins that do not come from this country, whereas Tikanga when it is referred to Mori would understand that as their law, their law prevailing. Are you aware of that distinction that she draws? Yes, I think so, yes. Have you considered the wording of article three in Te Tiriti, in the use of the term Tikanga not Ture? 246

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Mm'hm. If we are to draw Dame Salmonds reasoning a little bit further, that article three seems to be saying that the governor will assist in ensuring that Mori law, Tikanga not Ture, Mori law would be they would facilitate circumstances to ensure that Mori law would be applied equally to both Pkeha and Mori here in this country. Have you got any comments on that? I am just looking at the clause here. Except that it says that they, Mori, will be given all of the Tikanga, the same as the people of England. Well, this is where you not being a linguist, Tuku could mean facilitate, couldnt it? Kia tukuna noa atu, could be to facilitate the provision and it is Tikanga, it is not Ture? Correct. And Dame Salmond says that if it is Tikanga it is Mori law, correct? Mm. So that would seem to give an understanding that it is Mori law that will be applied equally and the Queen and her agent will actually facilitate the equal application of Mori law to everybody in this country. That is what that would that is an interpretation that could be gained, could it not? Well, I do not think I am in a position to commence decidedly on that point. Okay. That is a pity. Now, you have discussed the magna carte and you have talked about it as the greater charter source of law. Yes. You are aware that the magna carte is not a source of law, it is a fetter on law. Have you actually read the magna carte? I have looked at aspects of it, yes, for this report. Have you read the whole thing in its entirety? That is actually quite a long document. Yes, it is. So is your report, but have you read the magna carte in its entirety? Well, bearing in mind that of course it was in Latin and I do not read Latin, so it is translated, I have read if I have not read the full clauses, I have certainly read summaries of what the clauses concerned, and there were a whole host of issues. Are you aware of the whakapapa of the magna carte and where it sits with the petition of right and how it is actually a fetter on power and a 247

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protection against the abuse of public power rather than a source of rights in itself? SC JP 5 SC JP 10 SC JP SC JP 15 SC JP 20 SC JP 25 SC JP Well, that is one way of putting it, yes. I would have to agree with that. Then if The Treaty is to be seen as a Mori magna carte, isnt that a fetter and a constraint and a constriction on the way any authority can be exercised by those people that are mentioned in that treaty? Yes, in relation to kawanatanga, yes. So the document does not give unbridled power, it does not give unfettered power, it actually determines the limits, the natures, the scope and the extent of that power that will be granted. You are talking about Te Tiriti here? Te Tiriti. Yes. And it is to protect Mori from the possible abuse of public power that might flow from one such governor, that would be correct, a fair assumption? That is essentially what my report says. So Mori would be trying to protect themselves against what they have seen as Makoere says, the way that the governor treats the blacks in Australia, they wanted a governor to be different here than that which was everywhere else, that is correct? That is correct. And they were not agreeing to somebody having unbridled power. That is very correct, isnt it? Yes, I would say that is correct. And Williams would have understood this because he was close to Mori, he was discussing things with Mori, he would have understood that that was the Mori intention? Well, as I have said, his understanding of his own political system was that authority was constrained by law. So it makes total sense. And this was being constrained by The Treaty, by the document itself. Any exercise of power was going to be constrained by it. Yes, I believe that is how he saw it. Now, we also and this is getting a bit beyond your brief and I know you have talked about Williams as a translator. But when we come to Hokianga it is not Williams that actually reads Te Tiriti out, is it? 248

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I believe you are correct, yes. Do you know whether or not it was his translation that was read out or whether or not a translation was read out? I do not know for sure. But whatever it was, it is that Mori version that is signed by the Mori chiefs, isnt it? Correct. And that is not a pact between the chiefs and the church, that is a pact between the Crown and the chiefs, isnt it? Except that the Queen is also the head of the Church of England. But essentially yes, it is a pact between the Queen and the chiefs. Mr Carpenter, I just want the simplest, simplest understandings that we can get out. I do not want it clouded and muddy things by mixing roles up and I think Mr Williams has gone through this with you in quite a lot of depth. The relationship that is encapsulated within Te Tiriti is between the Crown and Mori chiefs. Mori chiefs did not understand that they were signing a peace pact with the church, did they? Except that the understandings were filtered through people who represented a Christian influence and I think, if I can refer back to it, how Williams said he explained The Treaty. We gave them sorry, this is at paragraph 38 on page 13 We gave them but one version explaining clause by clause, showing the advantage to them of being taken under the fostering care of the British government by which they would become one people with the English and the suppression of wars and of every lawless act under one sovereign and one law, human and divine. So I think there is quite a close connection between the Ture that is under the auspices, if you like, of Kawanatanga and the Ture that is actually sourced from the bible. But I want to be very, very clear and I want you to answer the question. I want you to think back of the expertise that you have in law and in history. The Treaty, Te Tiriti, was never purported by Henry Williams to be an agreement between the church and Mori. It was an agreement between the Crown and Mori and it spoke about a governor, not about a bishop being allowed to live here or a missionary is that true? The relationship is between Mori and the Crown. Lets not mince words, lets not say this filter that filter. The agreement is between Mori and the Crown. Yes. And the agreement is to fetter the way the Crown exercises or the Crowns agent exercises authority in this country? Yes.

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Now, I have a bit of a difficulty with you when you say that mana was not given up, but they are allowing somebody to go over the top of them. If you place somebody over the top of you, and that person can exercise mana over the top of you, how that can not be giving up mana? You are giving them the discretion to make key decisions that relate to you and you are saying that you are now bound by those decisions. How is that not a giving up of mana? Well, I think it is quite clear that the governor is someone with mana who comes to exercise a mana or an authority. So have you finished? That is see, I am stuck. You are saying that I can allow somebody to be my boss, to be my governor, to be my leader. He sits above me, I have to respect him, I have to defer to him, but I am not giving up mana. Your paradigm is internally inconsistent with itself. Well, I do not agree that from Williams point of view those things were inconsistent. I think that in fact, if I can refer, if I may, to I believe the evidence of Mr Edwards who said that Williams said to the chiefs the governor is coming as a parent governor on the basis of love and so and I think the word matua reflects some sort of protective role, but that does not necessarily imply that mana is thereby given up for the governor to exercise that protective role. That is because the role is a transient one. Is that I will put an example to you. We have a judge here today, he is the father of this process and he governs this process. This process are his laws, they are his rules but that does not make him the paramount chief of Ngti Manawa or Kaitutai. Is that what we are actually agreeing to here? A limited role, an assisting role, but it does not make the judge the tino rangatira of Waipuna. Would that be consistent with what you are trying to get across? Let me say what I think the basic purposes of The Treaty were. First, to keep the French out and any other foreigners. Secondly, control British settlement and settlers, particularly the lawless kind. The third, protect Mori rights and fourth, the piece of the realm generally, which may which I think would have extended in Williams mind to peace making among hapu iwi because that was one of the roles that he was involved in as a peace maker. But to be a peace maker in between say Bosnia and Serbia does not mean that you have to be the president of those two countries at the same time, does it? You could be an independent facilitator, an independent mediator, an independent adjudicator, as we have got now. That does not mean that they are going to have a sovereign role, does it? No, not necessarily. So again, the Mori understanding of what is emerging from the discussions from the clear assertions and the information that they are getting from Henry Williams is that the status quo is to be maintained, somebody is going to come along, be like a parent and a system in maintaining peace and dealing with the rowdy, lawless Pommies that are 250

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here and make sure that the French do not pose a threat. So the processes over which the governor is being given authority are clearly circumscribed. SC 5 JP I think that that is a reasonable statement from the point of view of rangatira. And from the point of view of the people that are making those assertions, isnt it? Isnt that a fair assessment? Shouldnt Henry Williams have known what he was saying? Wasnt he having these discussions? Yes, and I think by and large that is what Williams also thought, except that the nature of a governor bringing civil government means that the buck has to stop somewhere and I think in Williams mind the buck stopped with the governor. I mean, he was the one ultimately who was to be responsible for peace and good order and justice and whatever else. And I am struggling for the place where you are finding Mori consenting to civil government within The Treaty or he whakaputanga or where that is figuring in, in the discussions that is occurring between Henry Williams and the chiefs. So that is just that is an extrapolation that you are just trying to bring in, isnt it? Well, no, it is not, because if I can refer you back, if we are looking at the texts for a start, in He Whakaputanga Kawanatanga is reserved to chiefs in article two, the executive and the legislative power Te Whakarite Ture. Now, I would suggest that is quite clearly tukued to the governor in article one of The Treaty. I would not say that that is expressly tuku. What is being reserved, and we have just had a discussion about what is what processes the governor is being empowered to carry out. You have a role that has been carried out by chiefs, do you accept that? Yes. And it is being done in a collective fashion, say in the Hokianga because Wakanene is dealing with Patuone, he is dealing with Muriwai, he is dealing with Matangi. So they do have this collective form of dispensing tikanga, you would agree with that? Yes. And Mori are seeking to maintain that, you would agree with that? Yes. Even in 1846 Wakaneinei is telling Governor Gray that I am the law, I make the law in Hokianga, I deal with my own things, not you. That is correct? I am not aware of that particular event, but yes. 251

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Jennifer Rutenes evidence is that at 1846 Governor Gray was concerned about some of the deaths that were occurring in Hokianga and Wakaneinei told him explicitly that Pakeha law was neither available nor applicable in the Hokianga and that the justice that was being metered out by the chiefs in Hokianga was their own business. Are you aware of that? I am not aware of it, but it makes sense. And you are aware that most chiefs were actually doing this well after the signing of The Treaty? Yes, I am generally aware of that. And if we are going to take your socio-linguist texts in context, that is quite a clear indication that Mori understood that the law making authority would remain theirs over their own people. That is fair enough? Yes, that is a fair indication, yes. We have also got the fact that Mori are meeting from time to time. You are aware that Mori are meeting; the chiefs are meeting from time to time to discuss matters of significance? What time period are you talking about? I am talking about prior to and following the signing of The Treaty, as the evidence of Hilda Harawira has well, right up until today, even if we go through the evidence of Pare Walker, you were aware that Mori chiefs have regularly met to discuss a number of these matters? I would be surprised if they were not. So in a sense, while we might not have had a national government, we do have a sort of governing form of nations, nations coming together to discuss the governing of their own internal affairs and how they interface with Pakeha, that is correct? Yes, I suppose they were continuing the customary role of rangatira. I do not want to demean it and say that it is customary. It is actually quite political, isnt it? They were making political decisions. It is political, yes. It is political. High level decisions, political decisions about the regulation of significant resources and about the way the people interact with each other, that is correct? Yes. So Mori actually do have a form of government that is actually in existence, as they said would happen in accordance with he whakaputanga. That is correct, isnt it? 252

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Well, I would have to have some reservations about saying that there was a form of government that operated at a pan tribal national No, you are not listening. I am not saying a pan tribal national. I am saying - - Or even a pan Ngapuhi. - - - when you read he whakaputanga it is about a confederation that is coming together, similar to a federal system that is occurring, might be in the development of the United States. But those hapu that want to be part of the confederation are joining up to the confederation and they are actually discussing and making collective decisions are they not? Well, I might have to defer to some of the traditional evidence about the nature of, and Hui that were taking place at that time. But I do know, for example and it is dealt with in my report, that when Busby attempts to mediate a significant issue at Waitangi in 1836 between Te Hikatu and Ngati Manu, I believe, there ended up being a shootout and a couple of Ngati Manu died at that time. Then of course there was the 1837 battle or whatever you call it between Pomare and Titori in the bay. Now, I mean, it seems I mean, those are the types of things that I think are making Busby, and certainly Williams, think well, we need something else here to assist law and order basically. Well, lets expand the selection. Are you aware, Hinepuru Cooper, she referred to a mediation that occurred in the Hokianga that is one where Mohi Tawhai was called in to mediate. Rather than having Busby or Hobson or Williams or a Pakeha mediate, they called in their own chiefs to mediate, chiefs like Mohi Tawhai who mediated at an argument that was occurring between Ngati Manawa and Ngati Korokoro. Are you aware of those instances? Well, I am aware that rangatira were involved in mediating, even in the 1837 disputes. Well, that is the issue. Mori were not did not want Pakeha to mediate their internal disputes, they wanted them mediated by Mori, like Mohi Tawhai, like Karaka, like Pihi, like those types of people, isnt that true? What time period are you talking about? 1860. Okay, well that is, of course, later than the period we are discussing here. Well, 1830 as well. We have Mohi Tawhai mediating a dispute between Ngati Manawa and Ngati Korokoro. Yes. So from 1830 to 1860, which is the relevant time, you have got Mori allowing themselves to have other Mori mediate their disputes.

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I have got no problem with that, but I also know that there were others involved, including missionaries. I just want to put to you that it is given that there were these mechanisms in between hapu, as they are rubbed up, pushed in, as Hinepuru says, as they push up against each other and pull away from each other, isnt it a rather racist context to actually assert that there was no form of collective governance that existed within the country and it is really just a post factor attempt to justify the need to intervene in circumstances that do not really require intervention? Well, no, I do not agree with that. Let me give you an example. As a result of some incidents that occurred during the 1837 problems in the Bay of Islands, Henry Williams had to travel he was subpoenaed by Sydney lawyers to go to a trial of a few Europeans I believe in Sydney where he was there for three months, away from where he wanted to be, back here, and I think that is the sort of issue that you had, that made people like him think we need some other authority here to sort these problems out. But their authority was being rejected and if you take what Wakaneinei said in 1847 where the matters were between Mori and Mori, those were deemed to be the Mori domain. But where there was an interface between Pakeha, then there seemed to be some acceptance that the Queens agent could have a role. Other than that, they were being their efforts were being rejected, werent they? The efforts of? Well, for instance, the efforts of Gray to come in here and tell Te Popoto that their legal system was invalid and that they could not be killing people for adultery. Well - - Or the efforts of the Crown to come in and get Heremia Tewaka out when the hapu did not consent to it in the first place. Those efforts to actually regulate internal hapu affairs were being rejected by the hapu and the rangatira themselves. Well, if those things happened then I do not dispute that they happened. But that shows a context, it shows a propensity, it shows an understanding, doesnt it? It does, yes. And if Gray is being rejected, he actually knows what the Mori understanding of The Treaty is, does he not? Well, I would not want to speak for Governor Gray at this point. If, seven years after the signing of The Treaty, a significant chief, Wakaneinei, tells the governor of the time that your law is neither 254

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available or applicable in my rohe, that is a clear indication to the Queens agent of what the Mori understanding of Te Tiriti is, is it not? SC JP 5 JC JP JC JP 10 SC JP 15 SC JP SC Yes, I would have to agree with that. Now, those are my questions. Mr Pou, just noting that there is eight more counsel and then the Crown to come after you. We did give the Crown the opportunity to go first, sir. But there is still eight more counsel to come too, Mr Pou. That being said, sir, I am wrapping up, I have got one more line of questioning that I will follow up. Can you explain to us and the people here what the Te Karuwha Trust is? It is a trust to raise awareness of the connection between missions history and The Treaty. What is your role in the Te Karuwha Trust? I am a trustee for that trust. How does that trust view the actions and the deeds of Te Karuwha? Well, Te Karuwha Trust is informed by history, just as this Tribunal is informed by history. So we are you referring, are you asking me to comment on the character of the person? No, I am asking you to comment on the character of the trust and whether or not your presence here is to justify his mistranslations, misdeeds rather than to just objectively portray the context as it occurred. My understanding of Williams is informed by the historical record and that is what I am here to talk about. No further questions, sir. The issues are raised. Thank you Mr Pou. Mr Doogan?

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Mike Doogan questions Samuel Carpenter [11.58 am]


MD 30 SC MD Thank you, sir. Good morning Mr Carpenter, I am counsel for Te Aho Claims Alliance and Ngati Hine. At page 191 of your report you say Williams thought sovereignty and government were identical terms. Are you sure about that? Yes. Am I right that your report is based on available sources, you have not uncovered any new material from which you draw that conclusion?

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Well, except that I believe I have placed Williams in his historical context and his socio-linguistic context, if you like, in relation to these terms. But that context, the context on which you relied is the available sources, the sources that other historians have used. You have not uncovered anything new, have you? Well, I - - Talking about your primary sources. Primary sources. You have not got a letter from Williams saying I thought sovereignty and government were identical. No. No, I am essentially my sources, I cannot think off the top of my head whether I have uncovered any sources that have not previously been uncovered by other people. So just to be clear, the basis for your you have confirmed that you are very confident that Williams thought sovereignty and government were identical, but the basis for that belief is your inferences from the available sources, correct? Yes. Now, Williams was a Navy man; he knew chain of command, right? Yes. Williams would certainly have known that Hobson was not the sovereign, right? Yes. Would you also agree that the rangatira also knew that Hobson was not the sovereign? Yes. On page 193 of your report, just at the top paragraph, you say The fact that sovereignty was in the next sentence There was no direct Mori equivalent to sovereignty. A Mori sovereignty declared in part by the significant word mana in 1835 was not going to work to mean giving up of that mana in 1840. Can we just break that down a little bit? First, are you accepting that it was an accurate translation in 1835 when mana was used as an equivalent for sovereignty? Mana was used in conjunction with kingitanga to mean all sovereign power and authority. Yes, you say Mori sovereignty, declared in part by the significant word mana in 1835. First question, are you accepting there that that was an accurate translation in 1835? 256

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Yes. Then you go on to say It was not going to work to mean the giving up of that mana in 1840. Why do you say that? The expression there is, I must confess, probably a little bit clumsy. But what I am saying is that, in my view is that mana, the mana of the chiefs, the rangatiratanga of the chiefs was not it was not the intent of The Treaty to take it away. So hence mana was not appropriate. So I am still struggling with this distinction you are drawing. If it was all right in 1835 and accurate to say mana was used as an equivalent for sovereignty, you are saying something entirely different is happening in 1840. Now, I do not have the English text of article one in front of me, but the gist of it is simply, in English, the chiefs cede to the Queen forever the sovereignty, the sovereign authority of these islands, these lands. That is the gist of article one? Yes. That is what Williams is being asked to translate into Mori. Mm. Now, one of the, I suppose, dubious benefits of arriving slightly late to the hearing this morning is that I get to see all the cars in the car park, and there is a very distinctive white van out there which I would invite you to go and have a look at in the lunch break. It has got the words ko te kingitanga ko te mana on the back and on the side the translation all sovereign power and authority. Now, your argument is it would have been wrong for Williams to use ko te kingitanga ko te mana to translate accurately article one of The Treaty. That is your argument, isnt it? Well, he did not use mana. question. I mean, I think kingitanga is another

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All right. Perhaps I will just break it down a little bit. If we I do not know if you have had a chance to look at the evidence that Anne Salmond, Professor Anne Salmond is giving to the Tribunal later today, have you seen that evidence? I have seen a draft of that, yes. And in terms of her field of expertise in anthropology and linguistics, you would acknowledge her expertise? Yes. I will just read you a couple of passages from that as a shorthand way of getting to these issues of translation. What Professor Salmond says at page 24 of her report is that On the basis of the evidence, it seems that the best of the translation equivalents in Mori in 1840 for sovereignty is defined in Blackstones commentaries as a supreme, irresistible, absolute, uncontrolled authority would have been, first, mana. She 257

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defines mana in this way, power, efficacy deriving from the ancestors, quite close in fact to the divine right of kings in European political theory and thus the best indigenous equivalent to sovereignty which was used in the declaration of independence as a translation equivalent of authority. Do you disagree with Professor Salmonds analysis? I disagree, because I think to Williams it was a kawana that was being sent. He was to bring a kawanatanga, a civil government, that was the clear intent of the English text of The Treaty, and so kawanatanga was the appropriate word. Yes, but the kawana and the civil government are the Queens governor, the Queens government. Do you understand that? Yes. So it is not just Hobson and his half a dozen officials, it is the sovereign, they are coming under the sovereign, and that is what is being given up in article one of the English version. Yes, well, I accept that. Professor Salmond goes on to say, again looking at what would have been the best translation equivalent in 1840 for sovereignty, the second is kingitanga, which you noted, and she says Kingitanga, the best of the neologisms, referring as it did to the status and powers of the sovereign. It is frequently used in the bible as a translation equivalent for kingdom and in the English text of the declaration of independence for sovereign power. Do you disagree with Professor Salmond that Kingitanga would have been the best of the neologisms available for translation of article one? Well, the one thing I have said about that is that it would seen somewhat incongruous for chiefs to be giving up kingitanga to a Queen that is one thing I would have said. The other thing that I have said is that essentially mana, I believe, was meant to be protected by the agreement and therefore it would be incongruous to give up the chiefs Kingitanga if they were at the same time retaining their mana. Well, Professor Salmond goes on to say Ko te Kingitanga, ko te mana, these two terms together as used in the declaration of independence for the avoidance of doubt and then she goes on to say If Henry Williams had used any of these words one might agree that his translation of sovereignty into Mori was reasonable. As I understand it, you are saying that you disagree with Professor Salmond and that Henry Williams use of the word Kawanatanga was an accurate translation. Is that still your evidence? Yes. One more passage from Professor Salmond, just to give you a chance to respond. At page 25 of her report, Although Henry and Edward Williams used Kawanatanga instead of a translation equivalent for sovereignty, this term was used, and not very often, in the official and missionary 258

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Mori of this period to refer to a lesser delegated set of powers, such as governors, over their provinces in biblical texts or for functions of government to be exercised by individuals appointed by the united chiefs in the declaration of independence. Do you essentially disagree with Professor Salmond on that as well? Well, I think at one level yes, it is a delegated power and it was - - Can I stop you there? When you say at one level it is a delegated power, what do you mean by that? Well, in the sense that if you are dealing with the province, the governor is the head man basically. He is the one with the overarching authority in that context. So even though it is delegated from an imperial monarch or emperor, he is still exercising the overarching power in that particular province or area. But you would agree, wouldnt you, that is power is entirely delegated? It is delegated, yes. Entirely delegated. He has no authority independent of what is given or conferred by his letters of instruction from the imperial source. Yes, I would agree with that. I just want to briefly go to page 162 of your report. Taiho. E noho. Tn koe. Can we just have quiet again please so Mr Doogan can ask the question. Now, I just want to clarify. It seems to me that a good deal of your the argument put forward in your report is based around or is supportive of the Belgrave position from 2005, is that a fair summary, that essentially you are agreeing with Michael Belgraves criticism of what he calls the modern treaty? Yes. Okay and you have said at page 162 that Belgraves critique is based on a critique of Ruth Ross and her scholarship from the early 70s. Yes. And you address what you call the problematic nature of the modern treaty. Now, on page 162 there is a quote there which is cited as an example of the modern treaty and I am taking it that this quote is what you are sort of agreeing is a problematic interpretation. Just for the benefit of the house, I will just read the quotation at page 162, second paragraph and it says, and I quote, it comes from a health sector publication, In article one of Te Tiriti the rangatira were granting Kawanatanga to the Crown. Rangatira believed this term to be less than sovereignty. It was a missionary transliteration of the word governorship. The missionaries used the story from the bible to explain that Pontius 259

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Pilate was a governor and had limited powers under Caesar who retained sovereignty. The rangatira were agreeing to Kawanatanga, governorship, by the Crown, not mana (sovereignty). Now, you say that is, or you are critiquing that as a modern treaty and at least from my understanding of a lot of the evidence we have heard from week one, week two and during this week, that does not sound like the modern treaty in terms of the evidence I have heard that sounds like the old Treaty. Now, are you saying that this view is a modern spin on the real Treaty? SC MD SC MD The modern treaty that Belgrave is talking about is a view which says the two texts are incompatible and they basically cannot be reconciled. And you disagree with that? I do, to a large extent, yes. So you think the two texts are compatible and can be reconciled? I think in the minds of some people, yes, definitely, they can be reconciled. In the minds but what is important here is for the Tribunal to understand what is in your mind. So is your opinion that the Mori and English versions of Te Tiriti can be reconciled? I think if you look at it through the sort of eyes that Williams was looking at it, then yes, it can be reconciled. Taiho, let him answer. So just to be clear, what you are when you say reconciled you are going back again to say that Kawanatanga was an accurate or a good translation of sovereignty. That is what your whole analysis rest on, isnt it? It was an appropriate translation in that context. And you still hold to that view just to be clear again, you still hold to that view, not withstanding for example Professor Salmonds view that the appropriate translation would have been mana or ko te mana, ko te Kingitanga, any of those alternatives would have been better than Kawanatanga. Your view is still that, just to be clear, that kawanatanga is was the best translation of sovereignty? Yes, for that particular context. Okay. To look at the issue another way, in week one in some opening remarks presented to the Tribunal, Erima Henare said, and this is from paragraph 26 of his opening remarks, and I will just quote this, The fact that Te Tiriti was signed and that the foreigners were not annihilated is the best evidence that no demand to cede sovereignty was made. Had the demand to cede sovereignty been made, it would have been the ultimate insult requiring the ultimate sanction delivered by experts in 260

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warfare, resulting in a consequential failure to make a Treaty. In other words, the retention of Mori sovereignty guaranteed Te Tiritis existence. Do you agree with that? SC 5 MD SC 10 MD Well, I agree that if sovereignty to the extent that sovereignty can be seen as an equivalent for mana, then yes, you can use those words together. Well, to put it the other way, to what extent can sovereignty not be used as an equivalent to mana? I am not quite sure where you are going with that. Well, just going back to that statement that Erima made in week one, it would be a fair inference, wouldnt it, that Henry Williams would have known, any missionary who had been in the country more than about 10 minutes would have known that a demand to cede from the chiefs their mana would have resulted in the kind of consequences Mr Henare is referring to here. I think Williams was would have been aware of that sort of dynamic, yes. But the point is that he did not believe The Treaty was about taking away chiefly mana, which was their essential dignity, their whakapapa. I mean, it would be ludicrous to ask somebody to give that up, and that is why it is not an appropriate term in this context. Yes, but if you take the view that in actual fact, knowing that if we accept that Williams knew, as you have accepted at the start of our discussion, Hobson was not the sovereign, the nature of the sovereign, the power, the Queen, Williams would have known the nature of that power, he knew what words were used in the 1835 declaration, whakaputanga, he was well aware that mana and kingitanga put together would have been translation options. But he did not use them. I think it is possible that he I think it is possible that that option was present, to his mind. But I do not think he would have considered it the appropriate translation. I guess I just want to be clear as to why it is that you think Williams thought that was not the appropriate translation? Because Williams was part of a humanitarian stream of influence in Britain that was concerned with protecting the rights of Aboriginal peoples, that is very clear from the record. He would not have conceived it possible that Mori would have given up their essential, as I have already said, their essential human dignity and whakapapa and all the things that mana represents. That was not, in my view, the point of Te Tiriti. So that is essentially why it was not used, in my view. Well, the alternative is that it was not used because no chief would have signed, and that is the alternative, isnt it? There would not have been an agreement if those words had been used and, just to turn that into a question, Williams for all the reasons you have mentioned, his humanitarian outlook, was clearly of the view that in his mind it was in the 261

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interests of the chiefs to enter into Te Tiriti. That is correct, isnt it? He was supportive. SC MD 5 SC Yes, you would have to say that, yes. So starting from that assumption, he is really trying he is not just a neutral translator, he is an advocate for The Treaty, he is trying to persuade the chiefs to sign, isnt he? Well, to that I would like to read what he said on page 23 of my summary when he explained to Bishop Selwyn his role in the translation, and he says, this is at 23 about four paragraphs down, As I was satisfied that I was discharging my duty as a loyal subject of Her Majesty and as a faithful pastor to the Aborigines, I executed the duty requested of me by Her Majestys representative, His Excellency Captain Hobson, and I am now prepared for consequences. As I did explain the nature of The Treaty in 1840, I must continue to explain in self defence, for I must not be accessory to such deception but continue to stand upon The Treaty alone. This is 1847, was it? Yes. Well, he would say that, wouldnt he? It is by that time there had been war over the meaning of Te Tiriti. Kwiti, Heke had gone to war because they felt their understanding of Te Tiriti was being trampled, was not being honoured. So it is not surprising that Henry Williams or any other active agent will be making some self serving statements. That is fair, isnt it? Well, that was not the reference to the northern war that was the reference to the waste lands issue. And the waste lands issue, just to be clear, was one of the reasons for the northern war. Yes, but what is he saying is if that had been our understanding of The Treaty, then we would not have supported it. Okay, just go back to what I said at the start of this discussion, Williams in 1840 was advocating, was trying to persuade essentially the chiefs to sign. You have agreed with that? For the reasons that I have pointed out, he believed it was a necessary thing to protect Mori rights. That is why he supported it. He supported The Treaty, I am not entirely sure leaving aside whatever reasons he was supporting The Treaty, I guess the critical issue is he nearly every pou krero who has spoken so far and most of the historical scholars, including Professor Salmond and others from Ruth Ross onwards, have said that Williams translation was wrong. The two texts of Te Tiriti are not compatible, and your evidence is, and just to be absolutely clear, you are saying they can be reconciled and that Williams 262

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was accurately conveying a giving up of sovereignty by the word Kawanatanga. That is where we have got to in this discussion, isnt it? SC 5 Well, I would disagree that my views are not supported by other historical scholars. There is Michael Belgrave for a start, there is Claudia Orange who says that mana was not necessarily the best option and there is also Alan Ward who said that way back in the 1970s, he said that I believe, if I recall correctly. Thank you, I have no further questions.

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Annette Sykes questions Samuel Carpenter [12.27 pm]


10 AS Trans SC Trans 15 AS Trans SC Trans JC 20 AS Trans AS Kia ora, I am going to ask a few questions before lunch. Kei te mhio koe ki te krero Mori? Do you know how to speak Mori? tahi. A little. Kei te hiahia t tua nei krero i roto i t ttou nei reo rangatira? Can we enter into discussion in our language? Engari kei te ngenge au, aroha mai I am a bit fatigued, but - - I do not think he has the level of Mori that you have, Ms Sykes. Ko nei taku tino ptai e te tiati. This is my main question. I am instructed by my clients to express concerns that many of the terms in your report would suggest that one, you have a fluency in te reo rangatira, two, that you see therefore the lens through the Mori language, so I want to explore with you before lunch what is your experience in te reo rangatira o Ngpuhi? I claim no expertise or fluency in the language. I have studied the language for a number of years, including most recently in the Hokianga at Taitokerau Wnanga where I completed a diploma. But I am not fluent, but I do have some understanding. I am not saying that is to be privileged above fluent speakers or anything like that. But you would agree, if we go through your report, you pepper your whole report with a number of translations on significant Mori contextual issues that arise from reading documents like the whakaputanga, The Treaty, but also from analysing various diary readings and other papers, documents that are in te reo Mori, dont you?

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I do, I guess, engage with the Mori text with the understanding that I have. So my next question is while you do that, are you relying on your interpretation of those phrases into English or are you actually commenting on someone elses interpretation of those phrases? Well, I would appreciate it if you could refer to a particular aspect. I will, but these are general issues, just as a whole. So we will just use the same terms, right through your summary, for instance, you have different passages you use mana, tino rangatiratanga, Kingitanga, those terms. Then you go to He Whakaputanga and you derive where those terms have their meaning. But if you actually analyse you do not actually use the exact term of He Whakaputanga, there is some variance. So I just want to know the general approach, what is your theoretical approach when approaching the question of translation from Mori into English, how have you approached that task? Well, obviously I want to be consistent with any other translations that are in existence. I mean, I am not sure that I can say much more on that. But if you would like to refer to particular instances, then I would be - - Well, I just want to show you some differences that we have seen in the evidence, and we did not get a chance to explore this. But Ms Kawharu in her appendix shows different stages in the translation of the document Te Tiriti as it progressed over the course of the discussions. Did you go through each of those differences, like she did, and look at the different language used to see why a particular term was that which was the final proposition put to the chiefs, and that is the process I am talking about, not the actual language. I am sorry, I do not know to what you are referring with respect to Dr Kawharus report. Well, Dr Kawharu in her appendix to her summary has the three translations of The Treaty that is available for us to be referenced. I am not worried about her. I am talking about the process. So we have heard a lot of discussions about different terms today. One of the most prominent ones which I will discuss with you is rangatiratanga. Did you go through systematically to see what was used consistently to describe the term that the rangatiratanga was eventually utilised in the Mori text, the process of your analysis I am trying to find out. Well, I certainly well, I compared quite closely the relationship between the texts. But that is not evident in your report. So how did you do the analysis? Well, I am sorry, I am not sure exactly what you are asking me. Well, did you have a table, for instance, to see the change in terms, and I use this because a lot of the expert testimony from tangata whenua, Manuka Henare, shows a table. Ms Kawharu does it not by way of a 264

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table, but actually producing in total the various contextual analyses. I am asking you how you approach the task. SC 5 AS I basically worked through the texts in chronological order and compared the English text with the Mori. Did you have in a column or in your mind available while you were doing that translations that had been done by notable historians like the translation my friend has just taken you through of Professor Salmonds, but there are a number of translations, there is Rosss translation, there is a number of Mori translations that are also available now in the modern context. Did you have any of those going through with you as you approached your analysis? Of course, I have looked at other translations. I mean, I am aware of Kawharu, I am aware of what Salmond says and I have read Manuka Henares report. I mean, I am not sure what bearing that exact process has on what I have said. Well, just for my assistance and my clients assistance, we actually asked for your document bank to see what actually was your originating research from the Mori texts and when we asked about it, there is actually no document bank. So I am wondering, do you have a document bank of all the primary sources of the Te reo Mori information that you relied upon? Well, I do not have a formalised document bank because I was never asked to provide one. I did not understand that was part of my brief. But I would be happy to provide a basic document bank, if that is requested. Would you accept, in the absence of having those texts available to us, it is very difficult to question some of the translations in your report because we are not clear where those translations derive from and it seems on the face of it that they are your translations. Well, I have been clear, I think, where the translations are my translations or paraphrases or whatever. I cannot really see the relevance of this. Ms Sykes, I just had a call that lunch is ready. Sir, can I just ask this one question before lunch? Would you accept that you actually are without appropriate qualifications to undertake that task? I have already said what my qualifications are and - - No, I asked a very specific question. I know what your qualifications are, I have explored with you what your language understandings are. Would you accept that you are without the sufficient qualifications to give a linguistic analysis of the kind that you have attempted? The analysis I have given is what I have given and if you dispute that then raise particular issues with me. Thank you. I will ask some more questions after lunch. 265

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Thank you.

DISCUSSION Luncheon Adjournment

WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 2 [12.36 PM] FINISHES


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Trans JC - - - to our Tribunal and to our witness and the lawyers with their questions. Before we recommence with the questions, just so everyone knows how we see the rest of today panning out, we have discussed on how we might proceed. We want to allow as many counsel as possible the opportunity to ask questions of Mr Carpenter. So from now until 3 oclock when we take the afternoon break will be open for counsel and the Crown to ask questions. If we do not get time to get through all the questions in that time period, we would allow people to ask questions in writing. Following the afternoon break we would then move to Dame Anne Salmond and hear her evidence. That will probably take us through to closing off this weeks hui, and so therefore what we would propose is that questions for Dame Anne Salmond to be in writing. So those questions from everyone will be in writing for her and that will allow us time for the taumata and hear to do our mihi before kaihakeri at 4.30. JP Sir, just on that point, it is Mr Pou, here, sir, the troublesome Mr Pou again, I really do want to have the opportunity to put some questions viva voce to Professor Salmond, so I would like to reserve my position in the same way that I did for Ms Kawharu. Yes. As is I did request again for another three days from the Tribunal, sir, and if those days do get made available, I would like to have those have the time to do that. Yes, thank you. I have noted that one, Mr Pou, and our post-hearing direction we would look to - - Yes, sir, Mr Duncan here. I think I like other counsel, would also wish to reserve that position for both Professor Salmond and Dr Kawharu. Yes, thank you. Kia ora, Your Honour, Mere Mangu here. I would also like to reserve my position and that if there is no time for me to question in the same light as the other counsel I would like the witness to be brought back at the next hearing. 266

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I will take it as a general position from all counsel that if we can have the opportunity to have Dr Kawharu and Dame Anne Salmond brought back for questioning, then that would certainly be the process to follow. Ka pai?

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Annette Sykes questions Samuel Carpenter [1.17 pm]


AS 10 Now, I would like to explore with you some scenes that have already been explored by other counsel, but I would like to put a number of propositions, and I think we have got to these levels of agreement. There is a certain cultural lense that applies when we look at interpretation of these two documents, and you have attempted in your report so that is the first proposition, would you agree to that? 15 SC AS Yes. So there is a cultural lense that you have focused on in your commission, was that of two individuals who were key in the development of the construction of the documents? Yes. We have gone through the various histories of that, Mr Williams and Mr Doogan, both of those individuals would have understood quite clearly concepts of chain of command and power and authority within an English common law construct? Is that fair? What is the reference to chain of command there? Well, we had a number of questions put to you about a naval history of an individual. Another chain of command and another metaphor, of course, would be within the clergy, the bishop having a higher rank, and the Queen, of course, being that where both the military and the church would end up with the Queen as head of state as having the mana. So chain of command very clearly. Yes. The third propositions that were put to you is that there was quite a different understanding from rangatira Mori as to the notion of the right of them to maintain authority exclusive and absolute authority over their estates. So the third, we are up to the fourth proposition, and I am just trying to summarise so I don't have to repeat the matters, is that an these are the line of question from Mr Pou, that there was quite a different understanding that the rangatira had with respect to both He Wakaputanga and its relationship to Te Tiriti in particular the way that it reserved in their minds that they were of the absolute authority over 267

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their estates, and there was a delegation of a limited authority in certain contexts to a kwana. Do you accept those propositions? SC 5 AS Well, bearing in mind that I am talking primarily about Williams and Busby here, but generally I that would make sense to me, what you have just said. Now, I just want to look at the cultural lense, and highlight some things that I think need to be on the record, and I want to draw from some of the language of your report. And I am really exploring in my questions of you what was the colonial intents, and where is the evidence of that colonial intent being notified to these two individuals that you have focused your research on. But I am interested in some of the language in your report. If we go to page 40, for instance, you go, British history from independent tribes to civilised nation. Are you suggesting that Mori were independent uncivilised tribes that were to become a civilised nation? I am just struggling with your this is your language; this is not the language of the two individuals you were commissioned to research. Is this the lense with which you interpret this part of New Zealand history? SC 20 AS With respect, that is not my language; that is the language and world view of these two individuals at the time. Okay, so if we go to page 40, so all of these subheadings for you are about not you classifying the period, but language to classify the themes of that period, drawing from that period? Yes. They are to encapsulate the understanding and world view of those two people in particular, but they are general cultural constructs. And so, the other one that pops out at 63 is From savagery to civilisation, and those are the general morality ethical views that were being held by these two individuals. Could you amplify what you mean by from savagery to civilisation having regard to the two examples that you use at that part of your report? Sorry, which page? Mine is on 63, but I think I have a different numbering. Yes. It is above footnote 167. I am struggling to find the place, but you wish me to elaborate briefly on -It is the page after where the footnote from 167 is, there is a heading From savagery to civilisation. Yes.

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But that kind of phraseology is pepper-potted right through from page 40 to page 80 of your report. Yes. This in particular is Busbys language, and he is contrasting a civil polity governed by law to, in his mind, a barbarous state where everyone takes up arms in his own defence, or groups take up arms in their own defence. That is one aspect of it. But certainly the Scottish enlightenment had a very strong tradition which saw civilisation emerging through different economic states from sort of nomadic savages to semi-civilised or barbarous tribes who may be settled and in some ways settled in a particular place, to a certain extent, and then coming through to what they considered was the industrial state of settled civilised towns in which there was a division of labour and that sort of thing. So there is the sense of superiority, that their culture is superior and other cultures which are perhaps more tribal, based on communal lifestyles, where laws around controlling behaviour may result in death at the end of a particular weapon, those are inferior cultures? I would hesitate to say they are inferior cultures. The idea was these ideas were constructed historically. They saw that through various influences in their own history, Christianity, Roman civilisation, perhaps Norman civilisation, Britain had been civilised, had attained to a level of civil government and of course the industrialisation that was going on to some extent at the times comes into it. You would not say inferior, but you use the term savage. What is the difference? Well, I mean, in some ways it was a term of art for the Scottish enlightenment philosophers for perhaps some Christian from a missionary point of view perhaps, from an evangelical point of view, this was also in a sense a moral category. So things like cannibalism and infanticide would perhaps come under that definition of savage, but by the same token, Europeans could also be savages as well. Well, French were actually barbarians, were they not, French were actually using very similar techniques as regulators of behaviour, in their communities, werent they? What techniques do you mean? Barbarous, cannibalistic behaviours. And I don't want to go into it but the point is there is this belief that we need to move from the state to a more superior state, a civilised state, is how it has been described, and that is one of the cultural lenses, that is one of the moral objectives, that is one of the clear intentions that they bring in their tasks at this time. Yes, I would agree with that. So, it is about them moving an individual group of people who they believe is lesser than them, inferior to them, to a more advanced state?

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The terminology gets difficult because the if I can just make this point. At page 81 on my report this here is really the kernel of the humanitarian movement of the, in particular the anti-slavery movement. And it appears and William Wilberforces 1807 work justifying the abolition of the slave trade, and he says, well he causes a portion of the Book of Acts 1726 to appear on the title page, which says, God hath made of one blood all nations and men for to dwell on all the face of the earth. Now that was one of the driving forces, that world view was one of the driving forces of anti-slavery, of humanitarian concern for aboriginal peoples worldwide. And that has encapsulated the idea that every people group is equal in the sight of God. So we might be at different stages of civilisation, but in essence we are all human beings. That is people but let us get to some individual analysis. That was quite a wrong assumption, was it not, if I use Hone Heke as a particular example of an individual from this period who exhibited all of the traits of a Mori rangatira, but who, when travelled to England, was recognised at university there as a writer of sonnets, and could cut it, mix it with the best of the British society. So that was quite a wrong assumption to be made of key individuals of this period, was it not? Well, I mean, chiefs were, you know, esteemed for their intelligence and their dignity and nobility and that sort of thing. The British thrived on that sort of thing. But they were wrong, they were not savages. He was being described as a savage in your and you developed this theme, in your understandings by Busby and Williams, but he was not a savage. Well, I mean, as far as the savage language goes, as I have explained, we have got to be very careful about the nuances of that. I have explained the sort of socio economic nuances in terms of the Scottish enlightenment and the sort of moral nuances. Yes, I know that. Yes. But he was not a savage. Are you asking me whether I think he was a savage? I am very aware of no yes. He was not a savage their analysis was not applicable carte blanche to all of those rangatira, was it? Well, I am here to talk about what these people understood. So, did these two individuals consider Hone and the culture that he represented as something savage that needed to be transformed into something civilised? In terms of the conception I have explained, yes, that would be a general that would be generally applicable.

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And they were wrong, were they not? I am not prepared to answer that question. I am not here to give my own personal view. I am here to explain what these people understood. But that is really the conflict, isn't it? Isn't that the clear conflict in the position of the parties that colours the lense from which the relationships are then crystallised in these documents? Isn't that the internal and fundamental dilemma that we have two individuals charged with the colonial objective, a civilising mission, making a subjective assessment that individuals of the ilk of Hone and his contemporaries were savage? Well, I mean if we want to get to specifics, in fact Mori were described as more as, I think barbarians or even semi-civilised by some people. As Mr Carpenter has said, these are not necessarily his views. This is what he is saying the two people that he researched, is what they have put forward. Now, I am getting criticised for asking my question now, but I need to explore this because two thirds of your report is around explaining this colonial mission, these colonial objectives. The influences that were colouring the lense of these individuals. So if you do not understand that, then it is very difficult to understand why we disagree with your suggestion that the views that have already been stated by the Tribunal and in other reports, that there was a deception in the language eventually used, employed by these individuals because they did know that these were highly intelligent individuals, skilled in the understanding and knowledge of their own governance arrangements within their communities, and would not accede to a paradigm where they were inferior while the newcomer would be superior. And it is hugely important in exploring that in your report. Well, let me state it briefly once again. I am here to explain what people understood in a particular historical context, and that does colour their view. And I think they would have agreed with you. In fact they say things these chiefs are astute, intelligent individuals. So there is no necessarily disagreement with that. So therefore they would have known, to use the language of mana, in preference to a word like kwana would have crystallised quite clearly that paradigm. They would have know that if we had asked the rangatira to cede their authority, their mana, that they would have been asked to give up that position of equality or superiority that they enjoyed in this land to a newcomer who was asserting that they would have then a greater status than what was enjoyed by tangata whenua. That is why the terms are hugely important. Mana, kingitanga as opposed to kwana and all of the other language that are used eventually in Te Tiriti. I would like your comments on those proposition. Well, I think you have jumped from your previous discussion to discussing the text, with respect. I mean what relevance does that view have to a particular translation choice? 271

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Well, isn't that really the point of what is missed in your report? Because the fact is that these gentlemen, Williams knew that these rangatira because in 1835 quite expressly had affirmed their sovereignty through the use of the language mana and kingitanga, and that they were unlikely and just remember I need to tell you this I act for a number of the hapu from Kororareka and Waitangi who signed the declaration and the Treaty, who knew that if there was a shift in language, so that there would be accession of the mana and kingitanga preserved in the Wakaputanga to accession of that in The Treaty there would have been no agreement. That is why it becomes important, that is the motivations. There they are to civilise, to provide civil government. And I really want you to consider that that is the flaw in the conception of your thesis. Well, I do not agree with that, I am sorry. Now, I looked at your footnotes for your discussions on He Wakaputanga, and I notice that you did not actually consider some of the early correspondence that had taken place to give context to the petition, and to give context to the motivations of the colonial office from about 1815, before 1835. Why did you not do that? Essentially because it was not did not come within my brief. It was not a central part of my brief at least. I started when Busby arrived in 1833. But if we go to and I am just going to the early parts of your evidence I just want to clarify, because we have got a document dated October 2009. I have never been served with a November 2009 document. Are they different? Yes, the well, if I can answer that, the October 2009 document was the draft that was released, and the November document is the final report. Mine does not have draft on it, and I have an official version from the Tribunal, so that is my difficulty. Okay. Well, there is actually very little difference between the two. Just the numberings? Yes. Okay. But while you do not go into this period here, you do background in the early part of your report a number of the contextual matters, for instance, of the Scottish movement. If we go to page 7 of your report you start in 1815 there. It is in the prologue. And you use that to highlight Wellington defeated the French general at Waterloo. So you look at contemporary movements in 1815 which was the features and the events shaping the lense of these gentlemen. Mmhm. One would have thought you would have also seen what was happening here in this period, in the kinds of correspondence that was being written by the colonial government, the imperial government and their expansion 272

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policies and we actually put a brief this week, I don't know if you were here for this, Marsha Davis brief which sets out all that relevant correspondence right up to 1835. And I am going to take you to parts of your report where parts of those correspondences are actually mentioned in your report. But you do not actually address those correspondences. Why didnt you? No particular reason except that you can never cover everything in a single piece of research. Well, I am struggling why you spend a lot of time in the middle parts of your report on the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the Berlin Conference after this period, which is a lot of written material on this, but the key area that we are talking about, the correspondence that flowed from 1815 to 1835, which gives the intention of the colonial state its clear meaning, is not considered by you. It shows a huge gap in your approach to these matters. Well, it is not for me to say. Well, would you accept that that then creates huge difficulties with the voracity of many of the conclusions in your report? No, I don't accept that because what I am doing, is understanding these two people and their context. The point about the empire stuff, which I went into, the Treaty of Westphalia and things like that, that is important to understand the nature the sovereignty, and if I have not made it clear already, my evidence is that the sovereignty that Williams had in his mind was not that absolute uncontrolled authority that, I think, a lot of us looking back on 1840 assume that, you know, the Crown was it was there to exercise. That is the problem of history. We have to somehow get back to the time period and try and look forwards, rather than looking back through the lenses of what happened after. But then you also omit though, by failing to look at that correspondence at some of the motivations which led the Crown to then instruct these individuals. For example, I will use the first correspondence we took Marsha to, which is the letter that was sent in 1815 expressing that Merchants had approached the Crown resident in New South Wales at that point with the purpose of commercialisation, of trade, of establishing a factory in New Zealand and then there was a series of correspondence around what the colonial office saw as the preconditions to that kind of relationship. Do you accept that because not considering that, and by focusing on definitions of parliamentary sovereignty, what the construct of civil government is, you may actually be missing other key objectives that are driving the drafting of these documents? Well, that is for the Tribunal to judge. You do not see yourself as okay, so you do not see trade as an objective, the desire of entrepreneurs from England coming to establish factories in the Bay of Islands as a motivating factor to enable settled enable peaceful settlement of that area? 273

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Oh, there is no doubt that trade was a factor. You do not say it is a primary factor? You are still saying - - A primary factor in what exactly? In developing an arrangement for the peaceful co-existence of the arrivers, the newcomers and tangata whenua? From the point of view of the European settlers or traders? The arrivers. Well, oh, certainly that was a reason for government intervention to regulate those people, and their interaction with Mori. So, if you have not explored those motivations, you have not looked at the primary documents, what did you look at to get the flavour of those matters and how they were influencing those individuals? Well, look, my report is my report. It is a confined brief. I am not I did not have carte blanche to go and look at everything that might be possibly relevant to this inquiry. So, you are saying that in your researching you found no evidence of Williams being aware of these earlier correspondence in the way he interacted with Mori during the period that he was operating here? You mean this petition, or whatever it was? The correspondence leading up to the petition, the petition itself and the background to the He Wakaputanga. Are you saying that because you did not consider it, which is what you have just told me - - What was the date of that particular - - This one is 1815 but there is a number of documents right up to 1834 prior to the 1835 declaration. No, I did not go back that far. So, you did not so you are unable to tell us whether they were matters that were in the mind of these two gentlemen? Well, I cannot say anything more than that, you know, trade was obviously a factor. I mean Williams wanted to control the liquor trade. That was a major concern of his, into the Bay of Island. And he would have been aware of these documents, but you are saying that in your research, you did not come across any direct information to confirm that? Not that early, no. He was not even in New Zealand at that stage.

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But you would accept that that is a huge gap in your evidence because you do consider early influences on Williams right up to 1812. Your report looks at those matters, but does not look at the particular matters operating here in Aotearoa in the Bay of Islands? And that is part again, I am sorry, I do not know the numbering. It is introducing Williams and Busby; it is page 7 of your summary. Well, it is for others to judge whether there are gaps that other evidence can fill. Okay, so just to be clear, you looked at matters that influenced his life, but you did not look at matters that influenced the community the transactions were being developed within? Well, no, I do not agree with that. I have looked at the period primarily from 1833 from Busbys arrival through to 1840, and that is the key period and that is the period that the Tribunals questions are directed to. Now, in this correspondence there is the term factories used. And you also use it in your report. Can you amplify what factories? My client thinks that that means that term was used at that time to establish trade. But it is not, isn't it? It is a term that is used in a number of contexts, and you use it in your report in a different way. Can you tell us why you use factories the way you have? Well, it is relevant because Hobson proposes factories as a model for British intervention in New Zealand in his 1837 report to his superior. I cannot remember who exactly that was. But he has been in India and that is the context of the factories he is referring to, I believe. Those were essentially trading posts, initially, that over time grew into I guess small pseudo legal jurisdictions with military support. So, if someone in his correspondence is saying that I am going to Sydney for permission to establish a factor in New Zealand and given during this period then one might assume then that they are not coming to develop some industrial development, they are actually coming here to set up some prominent kind of regime. Some what type of regime? Some kind protectorate regime of the kind you describe. It is at 1.40 of your main report. And that is the October date; I do not have the November version. Oh, okay. Well, - - Under the summary of schemes of British intervention. If you are referring to the 1815 reference - - No, it is the next two letters afterwards also talk about factories. Okay, but you are asking me to comment on the 1815 reference to factories? 275

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Mmhm. Well, in that case I would say that they were essentially intended to be trading posts on the Indian model. And can you just clarify because I really wanted to understand for the audience, what was the Indian model? Well, I think I have just explained that before in brief. It essentially was the involvement of chartered companies in India who fixed themselves to particular locations, mostly along the coasts, for the purposes of trading goods in and out of the subcontinent back to Europe primarily. So, it is about setting up settlements. Now, who would those settlements be governed by, England, or would they be governed by the jurisdiction of the countries they had been located in? They were usually preceded by some sort of negotiation with the local Indian rulers or authorities. So, if there is an intention to establish those kinds of factories expressed as early as 1815, then were these matters made known in your research to those individuals who were charged with the declaration and the Treaty? Well, I think that they were aware of attempts to I mean, by traders to set up shop in New Zealand. I mean they had set up shop in New Zealand already. So, I mean, they obviously were aware. They were Williams was aware, I believe, of the 1826 attempt by the New Zealand Association, the former body of the New Zealand Company to establish a that was a settlement actually, rather than a trading post, so those things need to be kept separate. And who would be looking after the communities, the people in those settlements? Who would be ultimately responsible for those people in those settlements under that model? Well, in India it was, I think, chief factors or and which became governors and governors general, so they were essentially in charge of that particular area. That was the concern of the trading company. But it was essentially, in the Indian situation, an economic enterprise. Did you consider that the factor, the gentleman or the repository of authority could have actually, as you have said, been the kwana that was contemplated in Te Tiriti? Well, yes, I mean governors were in part I mean that is one context in which governors emerged in the British Empire, in places like India. And they were there as factors, as governors for those settlements. They were not there to bring a different set of government to that nation, were they?

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No, and this is evident from Hobsons initial 1837 factory proposal that basically it was about carving out localised jurisdictions which the governor would have the control of. But outside that, he would be in a consular relationship with the chiefs. So that was happening in India, that has been mentioned in correspondence, and that is the background to some of the history to the development of these documents. Are you able to tell us whether Williams or Busby knew about that model of development from any principal source that you researched as part of your paper? Busby, I think, was probably aware of India. In fact a lot of his proposals for the protectorate were with the native police force and native guards and that sort of thing. I mean these are the sorts of things that developed in India. I mean the Indian Army was mostly not British soldiers, but Indians in India. So what was the point yes, so Busby was certainly aware of I am pretty sure he would have been aware of the factory model, but he proposed the protectorate model, which was a somewhat different proposal. Williams was probably generally aware of what was happening in those places. He had actually been to them, as I mentioned in my report.

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The other omission in your report is I do not see you analysing in any detail, which the Crowns witness subsequently does, and that is the proclamations of May 1840. Why did you not do that? It was not within the ambit of my brief to look at that. Do you think it was contextual, given its timing is only three months after the Treaty. You consider in your report a lot of the downside, or the upside that occurred as a result of the consequences of proclamations and the failure to adhere to the form of government that tangata whenua had. I am struggling why you did not consider that as a relevant fact as part of the historical context to these matters. The proclamations and that sort of thing? Well, undoubtedly I could have dealt with them, but once again you cannot deal with everything. But I am in terms of your brief, because I am trying to get into the lense of the minds of these men, would they have did you have any evidence to show that they were aware that these proclamations were likely? Were likely? Well, I mean, that was, I suppose, one of the things that European states did, is proclaim things. So they probably would have been aware that it was likely. So, then, if they are aware that a proclamation is likely, could there not be an equal inference that they are actually just softening up this proclamation of a protectorate kind of civil government for something else to then come in and substitute and take away rights? Because that is what the proclamation does. It comes in and asserts accession of sovereignty to the Crown without the free and formed consent of the hereditary chiefs of the northern tribes. 277

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Well, it asserted the proclamation took place after some of the Treaty documents had been signed, but admittedly before others. So, - and there is a whole context for that, which I do not wish to go into because I have not looked at that closely. I believe - - But consent was irrelevant, was it not? Consent was irrelevant. The consent for the tribes to agree to whether it is a factory whether it is because these are the three possible constructs of this period a factory type of settlement is what was happening in India, the protectorate that you have described, or a delegated authority where the mana rangatiratanga stayed with the tangata whenua was irrelevant, was it not? What was what? Was irrelevant, because the proclamations are made without reference to any of those models of settlement. It is irrelevant, is it not? Well, I mean consent was an issue. Normanbys instructions dealt with the issue of consent. But if we accept because there are three possible constructions on the model of government it could have been a limited authority of the settlement kind described in India, a factory, where a factor is a kwana who manages those people within that settlement that is a possible construction on the papers. The other one you have described in your report which is a benevolent protectorate being established in accordance with the philosophies of the time, the evangelical philosophies that there were all men and women were free to be protected, and given the rights and privileges of all citizens. And then the third option of a delegate authority which is what you have accepted today was likely to be the interpretation the chiefs understood. Any one of those was irrelevant because the proclamations proclaimed cession of sovereignty. Well, I am not sure whether I have accepted that last proposition, but - - So is Paul McHugh wrong? Paul McHugh can speak to his own evidence. No, but I am asking you, of someone who identified two key players in this period, who are developing key constitutional documents to ensure the nature of the relationships between visitor and tangata whenua are set up. So you are saying Paul McHugh is wrong, consent is fundamental to ensuring the cession of sovereignty? What in particular are you referring to, when you say Paul McHugh was wrong? Well, Paul McHugh, in his evidence, and I do not know if you have seen it, he says in answer to the question how was sovereignty ceded to the Crown goes to the May 1840 proclamation as the source of the cession of sovereignty. And if I understand your evidence today, you have said 278

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the free and formed consent from Normanby is fundamental to any cession of sovereignty. SC AS 5 SC Yes, that was Hobsons instructions. So, Paul McHugh is wrong? Paul McHugh has his own rationale for that. I am not prepared to comment any more on that because he is looking at a different brief there. The context is highly relevant to whichever paradigm we look through legal, sociolinguistic, cultural, political, isn't it? Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions. Mr Armstrong?

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Miharo Armstrong questions Samuel Carpenter [2.02 pm]


MA 15 SC MA Yes, thank you, sir. Kia ora, Mr Carpenter. Kia ora. I act for Ngati Whakaue and Ngati Hau who are hapu based in Omanaia. I just wanted to explore with you one of the concepts in your report which is this concept of protectionism. It comes through in our report as being one of the concepts that was a driving force behind the Crown at these times, was the need, as they saw it, to protect Mori. My first question is, to protect them from what? To protect them from the French and other foreign powers. To protect them in a sense well not in a sense, to protect them from British settlement and settlers, the context being the New Zealand companies had already arrived by 1840 without the proper sanction of the Crown. That is certainly a key concern of Williams that these settlers are going to overrun the place and, you know, there will be dodgy deals done, and Mori will lose out. So, just to paraphrase, there is the French and what some people have termed is the wayward Pkeha. Those were the - - Well, I mean there is the wayward Pkeha and Kororareka and people like that, but then there is also this whole organised colonisation sort of juggernaut that is arriving on the doorstep of Aotearoa, and basically they believed they needed to control that to protect Mori interests and Mori rights. It was one of the main reasons. Just turning to the first matter that you raise, of the French, so you are referring there that they were concerned over the French coming in here and imposing French law and doing acting not in the best interests of Mori? 279

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Yes, in brief. So, in order to protect Mori from French colonisation, they imposed British colonisation? Well, you have got to understand that people like Normanby sorry, people like Glenelg and at the colonial officer, and the humanitarian lobby did not want organised large scale British colonisation, and the proposals for intervention British intervention, were initially limited from that metropolitan end, as in the London end, but as things escalated into 1839 and 1840, they decided that they could not delay, and they had to take control of the situation. Is it not also true though that the British have a long and conflicted history with the French that coloured their perception of the French coming in? Absolutely no doubt about that. So the British certainly were looking to their own interests and perceptions when looking at the French? Oh, there is no doubt about it. There was obviously motives around you know, purposes around, you know, around economics and that sort of thing, yes. Just turning to the second matter that you referred to about settlement processes coming in and colonisers and companies and that sort of thing, we have heard very detailed evidence this week from experts here in the Hokianga as to the intricate laws that they have in place through whakapapa, tikanga, kawa and concepts like mana and tapu that are there to protect those interests. So you accept that Mori and Nga Puhi already had laws and processes in place to protect those interests? Well, in the eyes of Williams there is a comment where he says they did have a law to regulate their society, but it was not a civilised law as he sees it. That was according to his perception, but we have heard very detailed evidence this week, and I am not sure if you have been here to hear it, about the very detailed intricate nature of the laws that existed and the very civilised way that they were constructed, exercised and maintained in the Hokianga and in Ng Puhi. Well, I have not been here for most of the week. I arrived yesterday. But I do not wish to dispute - - Can we just have hush so we can hear Mr Carpenter. I do not wish to dispute that evidence. And you would also accept that at that time, while there were Pkeha coming to New Zealand, Ng Puhi and Mori in general were far superior in terms of numbers and military might?

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Yes, in 1835, and well, in 1840 as well. So it is quite clear then that not only did Mori have processes in place to protect their interests, they had the military might to enforce those processes? Well, from the perspective of these two people there were certain, I guess, tikanga to be observed. I mean they had experienced, and they had seen first hand the tikanga of muru and things like that. So they were very aware of those processes. Whether they thought them sufficient going forward into a sort of a settlement era is another question. Well, let me put it this way. I will put to you that what the actual issue was is that there was a need to govern Pkeha but that that is very different to a need to protect Mori. Well, I think the two are pretty closely related. Well, I will just link those last two questions together; what I am putting to you is that there is a process in place that Mori have to protect their interests. They have might to back that up if they need to, and what was sought was a method to govern Pkeha, rather than someone coming in to protect the poor Moris. Well, I think it is hard to separate those two out because the very reason for intervening was, yes, to control British settlement, but British settlement inevitably would interact, and had already interacted in various ways with the Mori populace, and it was some of the ways in which that interaction had taken place that were seen to be problematic and require intervention. Well, I just turn to the nub of the issue, because the problem with this approach of protectionism is that the Crown perception is that in order to protect Mori they needed to impose their own laws to regulate the land. That was the theory behind how they were going to protect Mori. I would not agree with the way you have phrased that. They certainly needed to regulate land transactions between Mori and Pkeha settlers, but that is a different thing from imposing English law on the situation. Well, I will just take you to 38 in your brief where you refer to Williams explanation at Waitangi. The quote there, you will see, he refers to taking Mori under the fostering care of the British government which is this notion of protectionism, by which they will become one people with the English and the suppression of wars and of every lawless act, under one sovereign and one law. So it seems quite clear that they were looking at passing law and legislation as the way that they considered to protect Mori. Well, I think they were intending to pass legislation to protect Mori, yes. But of course the fundamental problem with that is that by passing these laws they were denying Mori the right to exercise their own mana in accordance with their own laws. 281

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Are you asking me to agree or disagree with that? Yes. Well, I think that there was not intention to I mean the whole issue of land transactions that is the context, I think you are talking about, I mean that had to be the Mori tenure system if you like had to be dealt with or engaged with in order to deal with these transactions between the two races, if you like. So I mean, I think we are getting into other subject matter which is post 1840 here. No, it is a direct question based on this concept of protectionism which is a prominent theme in your report and I just want to put this question again because I think it is a direct question and it requires a direct answer. You have agreed that the Crown were looking at protecting Mori through the imposition of law. Isnt it then natural to accept that the problem with the imposition of Crown law is that it denies Mori the right to exercise their own mana in accordance with their own laws that is taken away because there is now British law? No, I do not agree with that statement. It does not necessarily follow what you are saying. Well, lets say then, looking at a particular issue, that if there was a hara committed it would, under this regime, have to be tried according to British law. Mori were denied the right of addressing a hara, whether it be murder or whatever it might be, in accordance with their own Mori laws. Well, I mean, we have moved from land now to crime. I have not raised land. You have raised land. I am talking about the concept of - - I think you talked about land before. We are talking about the concept, it is the same issue, this is just an example. The imposition of British law in this manner denied Mori the right to exercise their own mana, their own laws. Well, over the course of time. The problem we have here is we look at these things retrospectively, as I said before, we look from 2010 back. That is not necessarily a reliable guide for what was intended or even instructed by Normanby to Hobson for example. I think the three things that there is about three things that Normanby is concerned about in terms of law and good order or peace and good order, and they are around cannibalism and that sort of thing. Those are the things that need to be controlled because they are repugnant to the principles of humanity. I am only quoting the guy himself. But see, that is quite a different thing from saying you Waka-nene cant sort out this land dispute between two of your hapu members or whatever. I mean, those two things are quite distinct.

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Returning to that prior example then, say that a murder was committed here in the north by a Mori, by a Ngpuhi, he was dragged off to court, the rangatira cannot go to that court and say to the judge he is coming back with me, we are going to deal with him in accordance with our mana and our tikanga, you will not deal with this issue. British law prevented them from doing that. Are you referring to a particular historic example here? No, I am not. It is a proposition, it is quite clearly spelt out and I think it requires a very clear and simple answer. Well, of course, it becomes problematic because if there is a murder committed by a Mori against a Pkeha, for example, then of course, the governor is going to be interested in that. Likewise if there is a murder committed by a Pkeha against a Mori, there is going to be concern about that as well. So this is the problem of adjusting the interests and the laws, if you like, with two different populations. So it comes down to the relationship between Kawanatanga and rangatiratanga. I will just leave it there. Kia ora. Next on the list, Mr Sharrock.

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Gerald Sharrock questions Samuel Carpenter [2.20 pm]


20 GS Thank you, sir. The first question, Mr Carpenter, we referred to the Normanby instructions and there is the question of free and intelligent consent of the natives. What I want to deal with is expressed according to their established uses shall be first obtained. What do you think their established usages were? I put it to you that that was a custom in practice, that the process should have been done not only in terms of tikanga but also in terms of language? Yes, that would generally be the case. Right. Now, therefore clearly there had to be, before any treaty was entered into, clear and intelligent consent and that was Hobsons instruction received from Normanby, correct? I believe so. Right. Now, as a naval captain, of course, William Hobson would not lightly disobey instructions. Now, if we go on further in Normanbys instructions, I think it is also clear that Normanby was reluctant to take sovereignty. The words I think of, and I think you would agree with this, A most inadequate compensation for the injury that must be inflicted on this kingdom, that is the United Kingdom, itself by embarking in a measure essentially unjust but too certainly fraught with calamity to a numerous and inoffensive people whose title to the soil and to the sovereignty of New Zealand is indisputable and has been solemnly recognised by the British government. Do you recognise those words? Yes. 283

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Now, earlier in your evidence you made reference to a series of objectives about peace and good order and security and all of those things, correct? Yes. They are taking law and order and enforcing them, correct, in very generalised terms? Yes. Now, that could be described as a magisterial type of role with an attached police force? It could be interpreted that way, yes. And, in fact, that is one of Dr Johnsons definitions of a governor is a magistrate and to govern is to exercise magisterial power. Yes, in the sense of a judge. Yes. Yes. Exactly, and in fact without going through, because we are in short time, there are, I am sure you remember, a number of very precise references to the benefits and protections of law administered by British judges etc. Yes. Now, if you are undertaking I think it was very interesting, Mr Pou made reference to the peace making role is sometimes adopted by a country or a set of countries to assist in activities. But if, for example, we send peace making troops to Timor, we are not asserting sovereignty there, correct? Yes. And you would also recall that a number of the Mori chiefs in the discussions around The Treaty I referred to be our judge and peace maker. Yes. So again, that would be consistent with the magisterial role? It would seem to be, yes. Right. Another point I would like to come to is when Williams was taking on his role on the 5th and 6th of February he was acting as chief negotiator and translator, wasnt he? He was acting as translator or interpreter. I am not sure whether I would use the word negotiator. 284

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Wasnt it that Williams had discussions with the chiefs on the evening of the 5th of February? Yes, I believe he did. And everyone thought, before Williams went to see them, that proceedings were going to be put off to the 7th? That is Colensos account, yes. Right. Then Williams comes back in the morning of the 6th and says Boys, weve got a deal, yes, very sort of roughly? Well, I think if I recall correctly, he has spoken with the chiefs and they say Why delay? Lets do this now. We have discussed it and so then he goes a message is sent to Hobson on the 6th, yes. Now, there is also tradition and evidence has been given that the original proposition that had been put to the chiefs had been either mana or rangatiratanga and that Williams knew that that would not fly. Do you agree? Are you asking about whether he put that proposition to them prior to? No, that he knew that he would not succeed if he put that wording to them. Sorry, can you repeat the question? Okay. There is a tradition that the original word put in article one was mana and if we listen to some of the evidence that has been given, mana would have been an appropriate word and if you look at the wording in He Whakaputanga, it would seem a logical word to have put in the original draft. Yes, I think you are referring to Te Tiriti tuatahi, about which evidence, krero has been given. I have looked at the chronology of those events and I cannot see that the timing is difficult in terms of that discussion well, for a start there is no particular reference, to my knowledge, anywhere in the written record that that discussion took place with rangatira. The discussion that Williams refers to is the one on the evening of the 5th of February after Te Tiriti has already been presented, where he is assuring chiefs that this is a good thing. So there is nothing in the written record, that is point one. It is a matter of debate or uncertainty. Well, there is certainly no documentary evidence that that discussion took place. Although something, I would put it to you, did happen because the speed of proceeding to an agreement, shall we say, and changed momentum.

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Except The Treaty with Kawanatanga had already been presented on the 5th. His discussions took place on the evening of the 5th. Now, lets just have a look. Williams was asked to provide a certificate for the accuracy of the translation of The Treaty. Yes. Now, just bear with me, and as a lawyer I think you would understand that you would normally expect a certificate of accuracy to something like it is a fair and good and accurate translation. Would that be the sort of certificate you would have a warm feeling about receiving? Something along those lines, yes. Right. Now, when you get a certificate, on the other hand, that says I certify that the above is as literal a translation of The Treaty of Waitangi as the idiom of the language will admit, you would have alarm bells ringing? Well, on the surface there appears to be some sort of - - At best you would describe it as a qualified term? I was going to say qualified or some sort of caveat or something. But it is a soft one, because he says as the idiom of the language will admit. Yes, very soft I think, with respect. Now, I think, without reading it all out, I think you could agree that when Hobson speaks on the day of The Treaty he makes reference to restraining the European and creating an environment of peace and good order, yes? Yes. Right, okay. Now, my colleagues asked you these questions, are you still believing that government and sovereignty are equivalents? Yes, in Williams mind they were. Yes, even though, of course, Williams would have understood concepts of separation of power so there could be divisions within the function of government. So, for example, a magistrate, although he is exercising an aspect of sovereign power, is certainly not sovereign. Well, I think he would understand that, yes. Getting back to the issue of the translation, you are generally aware of the letter of Father Savant to Colin where I will quickly read it out. The governor proposes, this is his report to the Marist brothers concerning The Treaty. He says The governor proposes to the tribal chiefs that they recognise his authority. He explained to them that this authority is to maintain good order and to protect their respective interests and that all the chiefs will retain their powers and positions, right. Now, I think it is very interesting that you recognise that statement? 286

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I do not know that one in particular. Okay. What is interesting about Father Savant, and this may be of assistance to you, is he was obviously French and his Mori was better, much better than his English. So he was actually seeing the transaction, although he had the wherewithal of a western concept of constitutional structures, he was linguistically hearing the proceedings through the Mori ear in the Mori language. But was he relying on his own understanding of the krero in Te reo or was - - Yes. - - - he getting the English translation? He was there with Pompellier. Okay. So what we are saying again, we have some evidence here that shows that whatever was being put in the interesting scrap of paper in English, the transactions of fair and intelligent consent was indicating that the chiefs will retain their powers. Yes, well there is other evidence, I am not sure if it is Freeman or I forget the person who is getting an English translation - - But Freeman is an Australian, or at least an English Australian, listening to the transaction through the English lens. Yes, but what I am saying is there is a correspondence between what he hears in English and what Savant is saying, and he emphasises the fact that chiefs were assured they would retain their independence, their chiefly independence. Yes. Yes. Now, would chiefly independence not be sovereignty? Well, my understanding of that, according to Williams, Hobson and company, is that they understood that chiefs would retain the - - May I say in your evidence you make reference to that they will retain their rights of self determination? Well, if I have used that term then that is more or less independence. And although we admit that this is a 20th century term, it does sort of relate, for instance, back to the concepts of sovereignty, for Wilson and his 13 or 19 points?

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Yes, but I think that the independence that is being referred to there, and it is interesting that, as I say, I cannot recall whether it is Freeman or some other official there, who appears to see no inconsistency between the powers that the governor is to assume and this thing called chiefly independence. I find it interesting you go to Freeman and what I call the Australian officials, because in your evidence earlier you appeared to indicate that you felt that Williams was the sort of guiding mental intention of the Crown at the time of the signing of The Treaty. No, I would not say he was the guiding mental intention of the Crown. He was translating and interpreting the Crowns English draft. But he is the only one that really had mastery of Mori among shall we say the official contingents. Well, other missionaries did, but - - And other missionaries who were not part of the central [Indistinct 2.35.56]. Well, I mean, Hobson is relying on him to do a fair and honest translation. Yes, but then would you agree that in subsequent days Williams fell away in his authority and that sort of sphere of influence passed to the likes of Freeman etc? Well, I think Williams, as he says, he was doing his duty but he always saw his primary role as pastor of the Aborigines, the terms that he uses. So I mean, in fact, he is relieved when the government officials moved from the Paihia mission settlement, where they were staying for a time, over to Hokiato. Because he felt conflicted in his position? Well, I think he just he wanted to get on with the reason for why he was there, and that was his mission work. I would like to go on to paragraph 30 of your statement where you make reference to the letter to Glenelg. Yes. Now, again, in there, there is the statement where The chiefs should be incorporated into a general assembly, that is part of what is said, under the guidance of certain officers with an English governor at their head, right? Yes. Then it goes on and talks about the preservation of order and peace, right, and that the natives have, for many years since, and this was written in 1838 if I am not wrong? 288

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Yes. Have proposed that this should have been done. I put it to you that what we actually have here is the governor spliced into the Whakaputanga, that that general assembly of natives is the whakaminenga. Yes, I think Williams probably has He Whakaputanga in mind. And that what he was trying to do was preserve the legislative power of the Mori to make law and that the governor was only there on a limited peace and order role, which would be consistent with Kawana. Well, I do think that the situation which Williams describes here with an English governor incorporating a general assembly of chiefs etc is perhaps not dissimilar from Hobson and what he the situation as at February 1840. In other words, one option was to still, in Williams mind at least, incorporate some sort of assembly or council of chiefs. I would like thank you for that. Now, you have acknowledged that the Roman governor model was something that was in various peoples minds at the time. Now, the Roman governor, if you and the principal source of understanding of that would have been the bible, correct? To Mori you mean? Yes. Well, I think dealings with New South Wales and - - But I think you would understand that New South Wales had a big cross beside it, from the various comments made by a number of chiefs. Well, yes. Okay, and although Pontius Pilate obviously was not flavour of the month, there was at least some interesting elements that could come out of looking at that. I put it to you that Pontius Pilate was exercising a judicial function but only a judicial function at the request of the other parties. In other words, Kyofas sent Christ to Pilate. Well, here we get into New Testament scholarship. Okay, so if you feel uncomfortable, that is fine. If you wish to take some time, I am happy to receive a written response to that, okay. The next element, I will just put it to you that Herod was exercising sovereign power in ancient Palestine and I will give you a couple of examples, not terribly nice ones. The massacre of the innocents was his exercise of executive power, as was the execution of John le Baptist and Herod invoked taxes and passed laws and made decrees, and in fact the only thing that Herod had to do was make sure that the Romans got their limited amount of tax and there was no rebellion against the Romans. Is that a fair summation? A bit truncated, but in these circumstances. That sounds like a fair summation to me. 289

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Right, okay. So in fact, if the Mori thought that that is all that Hobson was going to do, they might say Not necessarily happy about the taxes, but we could just about live with it, so long as they know that Herod can also raise his taxes. I think well, I have heard of krero actually, this is a tradition one that says that the chiefs said We do not want Herod, but we want Pilate. Yes, well I can understand that. Yes. But it was also that there was but the point was that Herod was doing effectively the exercise of rangatiratanga, he was the local resident continuing to exercise his sovereign rights. So he, Herod, had not given up his sovereign rights. Yes, I am not prepared to comment any further on that without yes. Okay. Just a few more minor points and then I will be finished, sir. I would like to take you to some of Dr Johnsons definitions. I mean, for instance, when you look at I will just step back a bit. One of the things that I believe clearly shows that the contemporaries of The Treaty signing knew the importance of the Mori document as against the English translation is there were four or five or six contemporary translations made within a matter of weeks of The Treaty, and I think Parkinson describes those very well, correct? Translations of Mori text into English. In Mori into English. Yes. Right. Now, many of those in article one either keep kawanatanga unchanged or use government or governance. Yes. Or the exercise of governorship. Yes. Now, it is interesting that in some of the definitions of government is the administration of public affairs, an established state of legal authority. These are sort of subordinate references which sort of move back from the sort of absolutism of Hobbs that is in the supreme authority position for government, correct? Yes. And they would seem more in line with the understanding of British constitutional structures? That is the import of my evidence. 290

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Yes, okay. So in other words, in having this conversation, I am left with the conclusion that Mori did retain sovereignty, although the Crown got a subordinate power to administer judicial function. That is possibly the way that some of the rangatira saw it, yes. Okay. Thank you, sir. No further questions. Ms Thornton, I note that - - Your Honour, I just have one question, if I may? Well, I have got the list here and it has got Ms Thornton next and then Mr Potter, Ms Tuwhare and Mr Watkins. I am just going to say that we are close to afternoon tea. I had proposed previously that those who did not get the opportunity to ask their questions, we would do those questions in writing. I will keep with the list that I have, Mr Afeaki. Ms Thornton?

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Linda Thornton questions Samuel Carpenter [2.46 pm]


LT 15 SC Thank you your Honour. Tena koe Mr Carpenter. Are you familiar with how Johnsons 1755 dictionary was compiled? I believe that he compiled the definitions from leading English writers in the language. People like Shakespeare and a whole range of people of that time. Okay, and that they were compiled from a period of time 150 years up until the time he wrote the dictionary in 1755, is that youre understanding? Well, yes, most of them would have been 17th and 18th century authors I think, yes. And do you know how he concluded what they meant? Well, if you look at the dictionary it is not like it is not quite like a modern dictionary, it is a compilation of extracts, phrases drawn from those well known texts. So if I suggested to you that he and several other gentleman that he hired sat in a room and tried to divine the meanings of these words based on how they were used in the context from 17th and 18th century English literature, would that comport with your understanding? Yes, that is more or less how it happened. And that this is the first effort to make a complete, comprehensive English dictionary that had ever been undertaken, is that your understanding? I cannot be categoric on that, but certainly it was known as the dictionary of that time.

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Okay, so by the time we get to 1824 it is possibly as much as 150 years out of date? Well, I do not agree with that inference. I think that the culture did not change a whole lot necessarily between the 17th and 18th centuries, or even the early 19th century. Have you compared the different four versions of the dictionary to see what was changed in that period of time? I possibly looked at one of the earlier editions. But I do not think there is a whole heap of difference. And your basis, if you have not looked at it, for that conclusion is what? As in there is I do not think there is much difference, if I recall, between say the 1755 version or the 1759 version and the 1824 version. And if you have not looked at them you do not really have a basis for that then, do you? No, I have I do recall that I looked at one or two of the earlier versions. I would like to turn your attention to he whakaputanga and that was translated by the the title of that was translated by whom into English? Sorry, repeat the question please. He whakaputanga, the title was translated into English by whom? Well, my understanding of the chronology, and this is from the written record, is that Busby compiles the English texts that we have and then he handed it to the missionaries for translation into te reo. There may have been some adjustment at the discussion, but that is essentially the chronology. So a missionary translated it into the declaration of independence? Yes. Before that time, and it falls on me to ask this question, I am sorry to say, what other prominent document was known as the declaration of independence? Well, the United States declaration of independence. Right, and that was the beginning of the end for Great Britain and its American colonies, right? Yes. And Henry Williams was even involved in a subsequent war after that between Great Britain and the United States and nearly lost his life, had a serious military altercation during that time, right? 292

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Yes, that is correct. Okay, so would it be correct to say that the British government and the British representatives here in New Zealand would be particularly enthusiastic about embracing a document called the declaration of independence? Sorry, whether British officials would be? That is right. The representatives here, would they think that was a good thing to promote among the Mori people or would they think that that was maybe not so fabulous? You are asking about the officials here, as in Busby? Yes, I am talking about these ones here. Well, I think that it was seen as a positive thing if it led to coordinated decision making and maybe a coordinated authority structure among the tribes, among the hapu. But they did not call it the magna carte. No. It was translated as the declaration of independence. Yes. Okay, and the body that was defined or described in that document that was supposed to be the meeting, the people that met regularly to perform legislation and create legislation was called what? The whakaminenga, or the huihuinga. Okay, that would be in te reo Mori, but in the English version it came out as what? The English version, as congress. Right, now that is not a British structure, is it? Not on the face of it, no. It is an American one, isnt it? Yes. The American government uses congress to enact laws and the British government uses parliament. Yes. Well, I mean, there was possibly examples of councils of chiefs in British history. I do not think they were called congresses. I have not run into any, but I thought 293

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Actually, I should add here that there were international instruments like the congress of Vienna which were very significant which also yes. Right, but that would not be a British Vienna is not in Great Britain. Well, those agreements involved Great Britain. The Treaty of Paris involved Great Britain. Sorry, The Treaty of Paris, yes, which was a yes. Okay, so if you could I would like to invite your attention very quickly to paragraph 37 of your summary where you commented in fact that he whakaputanga connected these chiefs up with a British forum of government. Yes. Now, if we have got an American document reference to the declaration of independence and they are supposed to be using an American construct called the congress, how do you reach that conclusion that this is a British forum of government? Well, I think, in a sense that it is intended to act as a national legislative body, like a parliament. Busby refers to building a parliament house, so that is consistent. But the term congress I think possibly is borrowed from the relations between European states perhaps as much as the American example. And wouldnt those European states have been sovereign amongst themselves and joining up together to meet, if it is in a congress? Yes, well I mean, it is an interesting question what that congress was meant to effect. Well, given the American references and constructs, isnt it just possible that He Whakaputanga was intended by the Mori chiefs to be an effort to avoid putting themselves under a strictly British system rather than to embrace a strictly British system? I do not agree with that interpretation. I think at the time, in fact the declaration refers specifically to requesting the kings protection. Other than that, there is no effort for the Mori all the activities that are going to be performed by the chiefs, all the language involved here does not refer to anything other than an American system, isnt that right? You are asking about the English? Yes, I am talking about the English translation, because the English translated it, did they not? Well, I agree that congress is not ostensibly a British term. It is possibly more a term of international relations or international law or whatever. 294

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I have nothing further. Mr Potter, you have three minutes.

Tipene Potter questions Samuel Carpenter [2.56 pm]


TP 5 I will make it a very short three minutes, sir. Tn koe Mr Carpenter. Got a couple of questions for you. In your evidence at page 83 you say Te Wiremus choice of Kingitanga (kingship) for sovereign power and authority was obvious. The king was the English sovereign. I think it is at the bottom of page 83. Yes. Can you point to where in Te Tiriti the term Kingitanga comes up? It does not appear. It does not appear? It does not appear. But that was Te Wiremus obvious choice to describe sovereign power and authority. Yes, at the time in the context of that declaration of embryonic Mori statehood or nationhood. Now, Williams was a smart man, correct? I believe so. He was an officer in the Royal Navy? Yes. When it came to time to be involved with a fellow officer of the Royal Navy in looking at Te Tiriti o Waitangi, I put it to you that what Williams was trying to do was use a word other than kingitanga to describe sovereignty because Mori would have under no circumstances signed up to it. In fact, they did not sign up to anything with Kingitanga in it in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Are you asking me whether they would have signed up to Kingitanga, whether they would have signed up to accession of Kingitanga. I put it to you that they did not cede Kingitanga. No, they did not. That is not in the text. Rather, if anything, what they agreed to was a form of Kawanatanga. Yes.

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Now, there has been evidence from Dr Bruce Gregory, from Hilda Harawira and a number of other kaikrero here that say Kawanatanga is something less that sovereignty. What do you say about that? Well, I think, as my evidence says, my evidence is that in Williams mind sovereignty or Kawanatanga was an equivalent for sovereignty because the essence of sovereignty in the European context was a legislative authority, and that is what a law making and law enforcing authority, and that is what a Kawanatanga is. I put it to you that Williams misled Mori in order to get their tohu on Te Tiriti o Waitangi and that is all he was interested in. I disagree. No further questions. That brings us to the afternoon tea period. Dont anybody run anywhere yet. For the other counsel who wish to ask questions, the same process will apply. As I have said before, we will have questions in writing and also, Mr Irwin, in terms of the Crown and also in terms of the Tribunal, we will put our questions in writing for you, Mr Carpenter. , i tnei w mihi atu ki a koe Mr Carpenter, thank you for coming along and... Thank you very much, Mr Carpenter. - - - in presenting your evidence and answering the questions of counsel.

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NGA MOTEATEA JC MM 25 Tn koutou, Pita. Sir, before you pass over to Pita, I want to record my opposition to this process. I want the same opportunity to ask the witness questions in front of our people, as has already been put. I do not want to put my questions in writing. I would request the same as every other counsel has had, the same opportunity. As noted, Ms Mangu, we have set down the process and we are happy to continue with that. Pita? Kia ora ttou. E ttou m, I find it interesting that we are going down the home strait now, there is only one session left and we are sitting in a whare called Te Puna o te Ao Marama. I think we are in that Puna o Te Ao Marama as we hear the questions n reira e ng roia tn koutou, e kokiri atu nei ng ptai m ng kai kereme m ng hap, no reira tn koutou. Thank you to the legal counsel who are representing the claimants and the claims. Thank you very much, Samuel, for answering the very direct questions and questions that went to the heart, and quite rightly so.

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Nuki Aldridge has had to leave the Hui because he has heard of the passing of his mokopuna, 14 years of age, who died through suicide. So i te haerenga a Nuki i runga an me ng manaakitanga me te aroha.

. 5 Trans PT Nuki, take our love from this congregation with you in your loss. We do have a distinguished professor, Anne Salmond, sitting up here in front, who will be going after afternoon tea.

DISCUSSION Afternoon Adjournment 10

WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 3 [3.03 PM] FINISHES WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 4 STARTS
Hearing Resumes JC TB Kia ora Mr Bennion. Yes, sir, so we have Dame Anne Salmond, and you have a short summary of her evidence, which is #A22(a). I note some people here have that summary as well.

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Anne Salmond reads to her Brief [3.20 pm]


AS 20 Trans AS 25 Ko te wai e hora nei Hokianga Whakapau Karakia, ko te whare e t nei Te Puna o Te Ao Mrama, koutou aku rangatira te Taraipiunara, koutou ng tngata whenua, aku rangatira katoa tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. To the members of the Tribunal and the waters of the Hokianga, to the home people, greetings. The evidence that I am presenting today was commissioned by the Tribunal, which asked me to re-visit a much earlier analysis of Mori understandings of The Treaty of Waitangi, which was prepared for the Tribunal during the Muriwhenua Land Claim in 1992. In that report I was asked to address questions about the historical context in which the transactions and debates surrounding The Treaty took place, how various Mori participants might have understood The Treaty and its likely impact upon their rights to land and other resources. So in preparing my evidence for this hearing, it was indicated to me I should not carry out further research, which is a very hard thing for an ardent researcher. But of the questions now before the Tribunal I am addressing number 5, how did Mori understand Te Tiriti/The Treaty, and therefore what was the nature of the relationship and the mutual commitment they were accenting to and signing Te Tiriti/The Treaty.

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My background of experience relevant to this exercise have been outlined in the written report. So just to speak a bit about the research. In the report I endeavour to present quite a lot of primary material about the various versions of The Treaty of Waitangi and the debates at Waitangi, Mangungu and Kaitaia, so that the Tribunal can make up its own mind about a number of key issues. Unfortunately, as far as I know, no contemporary written eye witness accounts in Mori by Mori of those transactions appear to survive, so we in 1992 and now again, attempt to cast light upon contemporary Mori understandings of the agreements that were reached at Waitangi and elsewhere by firstly a close examination of the texts of Te Tiriti, including what we call a historical semantic analysis of some of the key terms in that document, and how closely they correspond with sections of The Treaty in English.

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In this exercise I have worked closely with Meremere Penfold, a native speaker from Te Hapua and scholar of Mori and also drawn upon the contemporary back translations of Te Tiriti into English. 20 Also we have used an inquiry into the Mori texts of the Bible and other documents in missionary Mori, from the period, since this is the language in which Te Tiriti was written, placing these terms in a wider linguistic context. From my earlier report in 1992 I worked closely with the late Cleave Barlow on this issue, a native speaker from Hokianga, an expert on the historical linguistics of Mori, and drew upon his concordance of te paipara, paipera tapu and other early texts in Mori. Also I have carried out an examination of earlier and slightly later manuscripts written in Mori by Mori on related topics, and carried out an analysis of the debates here in the north. Although these accounts record the various speeches that were made by the rangatira and the officials in summary and in English, and there is a lot of problems about that which I addressed in my report - they are the best surviving contemporary evidence written of the time of the views and concerns expressed by the rangatira and the assurances they were given by the Crown and as allied agents at the time. It needs to be said, and I can just interpolate here that the fact that so many, or nearly all of the surviving documents about these transactions and the debates were written in English by Europeans is a problem for the interpretation of Mori understandings at the time, and so I have argued in my report that oral evidence that is forthcoming from claimants and others should be taken and given weight in order to try and balance the record.

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Also, a reflection on the historical and rapidly changing context in Northland at the time of The Treaty, including some relationships amongst the key rangatira and between these individuals and various European leaders. But of course again the oral evidence on that is going to be very important. So some key arguments and conclusions. I am assuming, and I want to take as little time as possible in my own oral evidence, because it would be nice to have some exchange with counsel and others - I am taking it for granted that people have read the report, or that counsel and Tribunal have read the report. So I will try and focus on some key arguments and conclusions. The first one I want to highlight is the conclusion that Te Tiriti and The Treaty, although they are bracketed in brief by the Tribunal with a slash between them, I have argued that they are two very different documents with divergent histories and implications. In my view it is a fundamental error to blur the discussion of these two texts, as is so often done. Over the years this persistent error has led to a confusing and confused historiography of The Treaty of Waitangi. The Treaty in English, which was first drafted by James Freeman are the Secretary of Captain Hobson, the Lieutenant Governor Elect, who had no knowledge of Te Reo, was revised by James Busby, the British Resident in New Zealand then edited by Hobson and others, his officials, into a final version, as I am sure everyone here knows by now. Although this final draft in English was read out by Captain Hobson at the beginning of the proceedings at Waitangi, it contributed little to the discussions with the rangatira since most; perhaps all of them did not understand it. For this reason it is strictly speaking irrelevant to the question of what was agreed with the rangatira at Waitangi and elsewhere in 1840. Nevertheless, as soon as the meeting of Waitangi was over The Treaty in English was certified by Henry Williams as a translation of Te Tiriti, the Mori text that had been debated and signed by many of the rangatira, and was then circulated as the official version of the 1840 agreements, both in New Zealand and in Britain. In fact, as I point out in my report the reverse situation was the case, The Treaty which is what I have called Hobsons final draft in English was the text that was then translated into Mori by Henry Williams and his son, Edward, while it was Te Tiriti that was read out, debated and signed by many, but not all, of the rangatira during the meetings at Waitangi, Mangungu and Kaitaia. So, in that certification - something that was being certified as a translation was in fact the original draft that was then subsequently translated into Mori. Despite this draft status, The Treaty in English subsequently became the focus of scholarly discussions and political discussions, almost invariably in English, of The Treaty deliberations and their political and legal implications, and this carries on today. 299

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This history, however, tells us more about imperial assumptions, subsequent relationships between Mori, the Crown and settlers in New Zealand, and the intersections between historiography and power than it does about the promises that were in fact exchanged between the rangatira and the Crown in 1840. Nevertheless, and I think this is common ground, The Treaty in English does cast significant light on the intentions of the British Government, Captain Hobson and Henry Williams, among others, in those transactions. So the fidelity of those the translation equivalence between various sections of The Treaty in English and Te Tiriti is material to questions about good faith and efficacy in the negotiations at Waitangi and elsewhere. Secondly, as major, major set of arguments, since Te Tiriti, in my argument is the authoritative record of the agreements between Mori and the Crown in 1840, it is in this text that the nature of the relationship and the mutual commitments to which they were ascending are most powerfully defined. In order to assess that evidence, i.e. Te Tiriti itself, in 1992 Meremere Penfold and I, produced an historical semantic translation of Te Tiriti into English, with an indepth discussion of many of the key terms that bear upon the Tribunals question that I am addressing, drawing upon historical as well as linguistic evidence. So in my efforts to grasp some of those key terms in Te Tiriti I was very fortunate to have the assistance of the very eloquent and insightful native speaker. So let us look at the text of Te Tiriti and make some comments about it briefly. Interestingly in Te Tiriti the relationship with Mori is defined as one with the rangatira of various hapu. So the use of these terms hapu and rangatira throughout Te Tiriti indicates that by 1840 in Tai Tokerau hapu, which today is often translated as sub-tribe, but at this time as tribe with a dominant form of descent group rather than say iwi for example. In addition, although there is in fact powerful historical evidence that during the early 19th Century, sort of 1810s, in the 1810s and a little later, there had been Ariki - paramount chiefs you might call them, ritual leaders in the North. It seems though, but by 1840 rangatira were now being recognised as the most senior leaders of descent groups in this part of the country, and in my report traversed some possible reasons for this transformation, which is actually quite an important one. So it is the context in the North helps to shape the terminology of the Te Tiriti in which hapu are described as entering into agreements with the Crown through their rangatira, and the term Te Rangatiratanga being used to describe their powers and capacitates. Ariki are not mentioned, and it is interesting that in other parts of the country where Ariki existed and everybody knew they were called that, for example with Te Whero Whero, with Tai Heuheu and others, none of these men are know to have signed Te Tiriti.

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So I am just raising a possibility here, which is kind of an interesting speculation, that a higher layer of Mori authority in those parts of the country at least was left undisturbed. 5 Secondly, according to the preamble to Te Tiriti, the Queen sent the Kawana as a kai-whakarite or whakarite to the Mori people, plural. As it explains in the preamble, the Queen had decided to send a rangatira, the Kawana or governor, he kai-whakarite ki ng tangata mori o Niu Tireni. In 1992 we translated those phrases as mediated to the Mori people of New Zealand, and it is interesting that in Te Tiriti Mori is always without a capital, it is used in the old sense of ordinary, normal, every day. People of Te Ao Marama in fact rather than the incomers who were different in quality. This concept of kaiwhakarite or whakarite, one who makes things alike or equal, literally, is used in early Mori translations of the Bible as a translation equivalent for Judge, so Kai-whakarite Judges, and this role of a kai-whakarite as a mediator in inter-hapu disputes had become familiar in the North as a role that the missionaries might usefully play, although as other people have pointed out it was very often played by senior rangatira themselves. While the term kai-whakarite was used by William Williams in an 1832 translation of an official letter to describe the newly arrived resident William Busby as a facilitator and mediator in Mori/European exchanges. So the phrase ki ng tangata mori o Niu Tireni suggests that the governor was to play this mediator, kai-whakarite, a judicator role - not so much with hap as collectivises which is an appointment point I think, as with their members as individuals. Another interesting thing about the text of Te Tiriti is that the articles, which we talk about as article one, two and three, were described as Ture. It explains in the preamble the Te Tiriti would apply ki ng, ki te tangata Mori ki te Pkeha and e noho ture kore ana it should be. To the Mori people and the Pkeha who are living without law. So the articles that follow - this is the articles in the Treaty itself, are described there are ture. What is well established I think that in biblical texts in Mori ture, which is derived from the Tora in the Bible, so it is a missionary coined word, was used as an equivalent for law, ordinance, statute and the like, and it was quite closely associated in the Bible with the role of kai-whakarite or mediator or adjudicator. So if you read the preamble it is suggesting that these turei, or laws, and I would suggest that these are the ones that have been articulated in articles one, two and three of The Treaty, would primarily apply to the currently unregulated relations between Mori and European individuals, and I think that the rangatira would have understood them in that way given the grammar of what was said there.

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Fourthly, in the text of Te Tiriti the agreements are being exchanged between Queen Victoria and the rangatira, and the term tuku is used throughout, placing Te Tiriti in the context of chiefly gift exchange and alliance. 5 So if you read the text right from the beginning, from the preamble onwards, Te Tiriti is phrased as involving the Queen both directly and personally in its various provisions. The term tuku which I think has been well argued in other Tribunal Hearings, used in chiefly gift exchanges to refer to the release of taonga, weather, heirlooms, men and women in marriage, and sometimes in land, especially at times of marriage is also used throughout Te Tiriti. Indeed, if you read Te Tiriti in its own language it is expressed as a series of tuku or gift exchanges between Queen Victoria and rangatira. So in the preamble it starts with a tuku by the Queen of a kawana or governor, as a kai-whakarite mediator, adjudicator, negotiator to Mori people. Then also in the preamble there is a tuku by the rangatira of parts of New Zealand to the Queen now and in the future. Now this is not very clearly spelled out exactly what that means but the phrase is there. Then there is a tuku by the rangatira to the Queen of all the Kawanatanga of their lands, and I will talk about that word more, and that is ture 1. Then the Queen agrees to the tino rangatiratanga of the rangatira, the tribes and all the people of New Zealand over their lands, their dwelling places and all of their valuables. That is using our sort of translation that we came up with, their taonga. Then a tuku by the rangatira to the Queen of the Hokonga which we translated as trading of those areas of land whose owners are agreeable, and that is in ture 2 as well. Then finally a tuku by the Queen to the Mori people individually of her protection and tikanga, or customary rights, exactly the same as those of her subjects in England. So I am arguing in my report, which is a lot more extended in the information that has been brought forward that this framing of Te Tiriti as a chiefly gift exchange would have led most of the rangatira, because this was a Mori world at that time with Europeans living mostly on the edges of it in various ways, although the missionaries had their own enclaves, to understand these tuku as forging a personal aristocratic alliance between themselves and the Queen and their descendants with mutual lasting obligations. So now to proceed to the terms kawanatanga and tino rangatiratanga in Te Tiriti. The words Kawanatanga in the preamble and ture 1 of Te Tiriti, rangatiratanga in ture 2, and kingitanga in the declaration of independence or te whakaputanga, are all constructed alike. A stative, referring to a status or role, Kawana, rangatira or kingi takes anomilising suffix tanga to become an abstract noun, describing the qualities of such a position in society with its associated powers, obligations and privileges, so for this reason people usually translated rangatiratanga as something like chieftainship. Kingitanga, which I am going to argue is the 302

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closest transliterated equivalent for sovereignty, can be translated as kingship, and in strict parallel kawanatanga in 1840 is best translated as governorship. The equivalent indeed that was given by William Martin, the first chief justice of New Zealand and a number of other contemporary European translators, as various counsel have pointed out., in other words, the state of having a governor with his privileges, obligations and powers. But in article one of The Treaty of Waitangi, this is the text in English we are talking about here, it stated that the chiefs cede to her majesty the Queen of England absolutely and without reservation all the rights and powers of sovereignty. The question then arises as to whether ture 1 of Te Tiriti ko ng rangatira ka tuku roa atu ki te kuini o Ingarangi ake tonu atu te kawanatanga katoa o rtou whenua, which Meremere Penfold and I translated as the chiefs give completely to the Queen of England forever all the governorship of their lands. Where this is a fair and reasonable and accurate translation of article one, particularly when in ture 2 of Te Tiriti the Queen had agreed to uphold their tino rangatiratanga or what we translated as unfettered chieftainship. This question is crucial I think to the questions in front of the Tribunal, because as Paul McHugh [Ph 3.30.19] points out in his evidence, the British government insisted that if sovereignty was to be established in New Zealand the free and intelligent consent of the natives, expressed according to their established users, must first be obtained. But as other reports outline, Te Tiriti had been foreshadowed by He Whakaputanga, o te rangatiratanga o Niu Tireni the declaration of independence in 1835, in which Henry Williams was also involved in the translation, and I think that is an important point, because it is not as though these were totally independent exercises. In the declaration, the rangatira declared the rangatiratanga, which was used as the translation for their independence, as a whenua rangatira, an independent land, or some might say a land of piece, a chiefly land. Asserting their Kingitanga, which is chosen there as the translation equivalent for sovereign power, and their mana - authority. While they reserved to themselves the rangatira did the right to make Te Reo laws, they foreshadowed the possibility that they might delegate Kawanatanga or function (singular) of government to persons appointed by them. If you are looking at other texts in Te Paipera tapu, Kawanatanga is used, not very often in fact in that very important document for province or principality. And both here and in the declaration referred to a subordinated and delegated form of power. If you are looking again at the Bible, kingitanga was the standard translation for kingdom, although in fact rangatiratanga was also used in this way, in the Bible and in the Lords Prayer. So if you are looking at all the texts that we managed to muster and used in the concordance and in some of our other work, including the declaration, it seems that the best of the translation equivalents in Mori in 1840 for sovereignty would have been, and some of this evidence is sort of been presented in advance, mana - power, efficacy, deriving from 303

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the ancestors as we translate it, which has been noted is in fact quite close to the divine right of Kings in European political theory and perhaps the best indigenous equivalent for sovereignty. It is interesting; I will talk perhaps another couple of things about that in a minute. 5 Kingitanga is the best of the invented words, the neologisms, referring as it did to the status and powers of the sovereign, and is an abstract term you know by having tanga added to it has become an abstract term, so the gender issue is, you know it is interesting but I do not think it is particularly powerful. This term was frequently used in the Bible as a translation equivalent for kingdom, and in the English text of the Declaration of Independence for sovereign power. Then there is what is called the Kngitanga Mana these two terms together as used in the declaration for the avoidance of doubt, just in case nobody - you know anybody might be confused about what the rangatira were wanting to reserve to themselves they used both terms together - kingitanga and mana. There are other possibilities, you could have used I suppose arikitanga, although probably not in the North at that time, but in other parts of the country at least, it still referred to the highest human authority in Mori polities. But you also could have used rangatiratanga, another one of these neologisms, which is used as an equivalent for kingdom in the New Testament and in the Lords Prayer and for independence in the Declaration or Independence. So I am arguing at least five options. If Henry Williams had used any of these options one might agree that his translation of sovereignty into Mori was reasonable. But I argue that no one with any knowledge of Mori life in 1840 would have asked the rangatira to surrender their mana, which came from their ancestors and was not theirs to cede. Its loss would have meant death and disaster to themselves and their people. It would have been contradictory and a folly to ask them to give up their rangatiratanga, their status and standing as leaders amongst their people. In any case this was already used in texts of Te Tiriti where it was guaranteed to the chiefs and the Mori people in turei number 2. Nor is it likely, I think, that Henry Williams would have used the term arikitanga in Te Tiriti, because in missionary Mori that was associated with Christ. So this still left though kingitanga which was the term that was used for sovereign power in the Declaration of Independence, and as I pointed out Henry Williams also had a hand in the translation of that document. Instead of any of those terms though, Henry and Edward Williams used kawanatanga as an equivalent for sovereignty, a term that, as I have pointed out in biblical texts, was used to refer to the power of governors over their provinces and in the Declaration of Independence to function of government. When the rangatira were asked in Te Tiriti to cede this kind of authority, which was European by definition and of a subordinate kind, this would 304

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have been more palatable than any of the alternatives. Nevertheless, uncertainty about the spheres in which kawanatanga might operate meant that this part of Te Tiriti was still highly contentious, and you can see that when you read the debates, people were just not absolutely certain what this would mean and so they argued about it, they sought clarification, they made some very fiery speeches about it, and this led a number of rangatira to vehemently oppose the arrangement. So from the evidence presented in the report, which of course a much longer document, I concluded that in 1840 kawanatanga was not inaccurate or even a plausible translation equivalent for sovereignty, whether understood as supreme, irresistible, absolute uncontrolled authority, as in Blackstons commentaries, or in Paul McHughs [Ph] more minimalist definition in his recent report, which I had not read when I wrote my evidence, of communities of amenability to British authority. I do not think it meets the test of correspondence as being an accurate or even a plausible translation for sovereignty in either of those senses. On these grounds it also fails the test of securing the free and intelligent consent of the rangatira to the session of sovereignty to Queen Victoria. I think this is really important, I have learnt a lot from the evidence that has been presented to the Tribunal. Paul McHughs evidence on the constitutional issues, as I think are absolutely fascinating, and he makes it very plain that in British jurisprudence at that time and in political theory any delegated authority, any delegated jurisdiction had to proceed from the Crown itself. So kawanatanga itself in that theory is not the same thing as sovereignty, it is a delegated power which proceeds from sovereignty, which is without doubt a higher power, and he says this over and over again in fact in his evidence. So while it is often asserted that at Waitangi the rangatira ceded sovereignty to the British Crown, I have argued that this tells us more about the political interests involved, the rhetorical dominance in the English draft of The Treaty, both immediately after the signing and since, and the inadequacy of much historiography of this period, which relies on sources in English very often while neglecting those in Mori than it does about the weight of the evidence. The texts of Te Tiriti does indicate that kawanatanga would involve the introduction of turei, and presumably these are those that are immediately enunciated in Te Tiriti itself, in other words the terms of the agreement itself rather than something more broad, and tikanga or customary rights is one translation, you can translate this more broadly, of course, as we all know. For Mori people exactly the same as those in England were the governor acting as a kaiwhakarite, a mediator, an adjudicator, a negotiator between Mori and European individuals. In the Declaration, however, the rangatira had already foreshadowed their willingness to entertain an arrangement, in which they delegated what they called in that text kawanatanga or function of government to someone they themselves appointed, and indeed in some of the debates there were rangatira who suggested they should do that, appoint their own kawana, without disturbing their rangatiratanga or independence, 305

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without disturbing their mana or authority, or their kingitanga sovereign power, all of which they reserved for themselves in the declaration. So in Te Tiriti the kawana or governor had been appointed by the Queen. That is very clear, he had been sent by the Queen, but apart from that you could say reading the text in Mori, the text of Te Tiriti, it was compatible with this kind of arrangement. It also seems in keeping with a situation described by the tell and cited by McHugh, in which a so-called weaker state might place itself under a so-called stronger on for purposes of protection without (and I am quoting here McHugh) divesting itself of its right to self-government and of its sovereignty. So the final turei of Te Tiriti, just looking at that. The final turei of Te Tiriti we translated as follows, and recognition of this agreement to the kawanatanga of the Queen - the Queen will care for all the Mori people (plural) of New Zealand and gift to them all in the exactly the same tikanga, customary rights or conventions, as those she gives to her subjects, the people of England. So what is happening here I think is placing the Queens relationship with Mori individuals as that of a kaitiaki (a guardian or protector), and as we know when King William the northern rangatira first invited King William the Fourth to become their friend in 1831, they asked him to become a kaitiaki for these islands, and there are various other letters of that kind that were circulating in Mori and being sent to royalty. Now I think Queen Victoria was being bought into this kind of relationship, which was a spiritual - it was operated in the realm of mana and tapu. Kaitiaki is a well known concept in Mori, the guardian. So you could say in this part of The Treaty the Queen was offering to become a guardian for the Mori people as individuals and to give tuku to them exactly the same tikanga - those things which are correct, proper, just, right, straight, as those of her own subjects in England. Thus putting them on an equal footing with the British, and that is important because that was something that people were very concerned about in the debates - is the governor going to higher are we going to be low, will we be equal or will we be subordinate? Those questions were asked and they were asked vehemently and they were debated without certainty I would think by the end of those discussions. So I think that by the end of - in this large promise that the rangatira would have understood this as a personal guarantee from Queen Victoria herself and her descendents, because that is the way things worked in Te Reo Mori with rangatira and Ariki, but in the new regime would ensure they were cared for and that matters would be handled in ways that were tika, giving them exactly the same customary rights, and even you could broadly argue customs as British subjects. The idea of tika in Mori has got a lot of resonance with ideas of justice in English, just as the idea of mana can resonate with the idea in English of honour. This offer, I think would have been appealing to the rangatira, given the sense of injustice that many of them felt in their dealings with some white settlers, and they talk about this also at great length in the debates in Waitangi, Mangungu and up north in Kaitaia. 306

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At the same time, however, it is not clear how the rights of British subjects framed as they were within British Law and a capitalist economy was going to be reconciled with tino rangatiratanga, framed as it was within tikanga Mori, in which resources, including land, were held collectively and rights were shaped by principals like mana and utu, so that war captives for example who lost their mana also lost a lot of their autonomy. But within tikanga Mori the personal commitments made by Queen Victoria in The Treaty would have been understood as backed by her mana, as a very great Ariki, and that is the terminology that was used, binding upon her descendents, which I think explains why over so many generations Mori leaders would travel to Britain and seek audience with successive monarchs asking them to honour the words of their ancestor and to put things straight, or tika for Mori people. A last sort of major point about the debates. The debates in the North indicate that many of the rangatira were adamantly opposed to, or very uncertain about the implications of agreeing to have a governor. There are some issues that were raised by that fact, the fact that in the debate themselves many of the rangatira adamantly opposed having a governor and they spoke and said these things in the most vehement and unequivocal of terms. This does raise questions about the status of signatures from some of these people, because you have got the problem there of given this opinion expressed on the ground amongst their peers, then how the signatures appeared, but also it does point to the fact that the assurances that were given before and after the debates must have been crucial in obtaining the signatures, the tohu of a number of those who did sign The Treaty or Te Tiriti. In the written report I had quoted the debates in the North at great length, because I wanted to make it clear just how contentious Te Tiriti was amongst the rangatira and the levels of uncertainty amongst them about its implications. The debates make this crystal clear. It is also very clear, I think, from the evidence that both before and after the formal debates assurances were given to the rangatira that their authority over their people would not be disturbed or their mana challenged, and that without these assurances many of them would not have signed. In my reported it cited one reasonably detailed account of Lieutenant Shortland discussing with Nopera Panakareao another rangatira in Kaitaia, and he assured them, according to this, that the Queen would not interfere with their native laws nor customs, but would appoint gentlemen to protect them and to prevent them being cheated in the sale of their lands. So that is there in the record and the other evidence that survives about these meetings, which otherwise are not documented in detail, is consistent with that kind of tenure, that these kind of assurances were repeated, especially by the missionaries.

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So just to briefly conclude, in my view, most of the rangatira at Waitangi and elsewhere in Northland, including in Hokianga, would have understood the exchanges in Te Tiriti as forging a personal, aristocratic alliance between themselves and the Queen and their descendents, with mutual lasting obligations, and that the Queen would act as a kaitiaki or guardian for Mori people. It is said in the preamble to Te Tiriti that the Kawana or governor had been sent by the Queen as a kai-whakarite, or mediator to the Mori people, to control the lawless whites who had arrived amongst them, and this is also made very plain in some of the commentaries about some of the informal assurances that were given. In signing The Treaty they agreed to accept the governor and his kai-whakarite, which I conclude in my report would apply primarily to the currently unregulated relations between Mori and European individuals. At the same time the rangatira gave to the Queen or her agent the control, but not in fact in Mori the exclusive control, of the hokonga or barter of those lands, whose owners were willing to exchange them, while the Queen promised that they would remain in control of their own lands, their dwelling places and valuables, and gave to them exactly the same customary rights as her people in England. In my view, the agreements exchanged in Te Tiriti do not meet the test of securing the free and intelligent consent of the rangatira expressed according to the established users to the session of sovereignty to the British Crown. As William Swanson, the first Attorney General would observe in 1842, in most cases the rangatira had not the most remote intention of giving up their rights and powers of dealing according to their own laws of customs for the members of their own tribes or of consenting to be dealt with in all cases according to our laws. And this is hardly surprising, in Te Tiriti itself, and in the assurances the rangatira were given before and after The Treaty transactions those rights were specifically guaranteed to them. The evidence indicates that what they ceded, Kawanatanga, was a lesser and much more limited power. Ka mutu. RW Tn koe e te tuahine Ani, kei te mihi atu m te mrama o t whakarpopotonga mai o krero. Kua tahuri ki te mihi ki te hohonu o t mahi rangahau I roto I t ripoata roa me t tiki atu hoki I te whaea nei a Merimeri ki te mnaaki I ng whakamori, whakapkehtanga o ng kupu Mori. He mea nui tn. Kei k atu o tr te nuinga o ng krero m te Tiriti nei n te Pkeh k I tuhituhi, ktahi an ka puta mai te nuinga o ng whakaaro o te ao Mori. N reira kei te mihi atu ki a koe tn koe, tn koe, kia ora huihui an ttou. Thank you for the clarity of your summary of your evidence. I also want to acknowledge the depth of your research in your report and your work with Meremere Penfold in analysing the translations of the Treaty, and furthermore, most of the comments on The Treaty have been written by Pkeha, it has only been recent times that Mori have contributed krero on The Treaty.

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As I said before, we will be providing questions - the Tribunal, counsel, and the Crown, we will have written questions for you. No reira ka tautoko au ng mihi ki a koe. N reira ka tautoko au ng mihi ki a koe m nei krero I whriki nei, tn koe.

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I support the commendation to you for your evidence. Thank you. Just before Mr Edwards does go, sir, it is my submission that Dame Anne Salmond has actually put in a very strong case which supports the prepositions that Ng Puhi have been putting. Rather than reserve the right for myself to cross-examine, sir, I think the tree that she has actually placed quite firmly in the ground needs to be shaken by the Crown. If they are to go ahead and as she said she has strongly challenged the thesis that has been outlaid in Dr Paul McHughs evidence and that that is something that does require challenging, sir. I would really like to thank you for the evidence that you have given. I know it has been independent, but it has supported the Ng Puhi case to a very, very, large extent and I really do think it is on the Crown, sir, to actually test that evidence and to have it tested properly. That is noted by Mr - you have heard those comments, Mr Irwin? I have heard those comments, sir. Do you wish me to do anything in regard to them? No - well, just - - Sir, there is a half an hour left, I am just very conscious - the best evidence is always that which is listened to by those that are present, and I understood we did not complete until 4.30, so I thought the Crown may wish to take advantage of at least that time to be used to question this witness. I have been advised that this time the taumata would like the mihimihi to be done before we go into the hakari. heoi an r me mihi atu r ki t ttou kaituku prongo ki ttou I tnei ahiahi he poto noa iho tnei mihi ki a koe e te tuahine Ani, e tautoko kaha ana ng kupu kua oti te whriki I a Ranginui, ki u putanga krero. Heoi an he whakamutunga ake ttou m ko te waiata e whakaarongia Toro Mai Ringa. I commend Dr Salmond for her report. This is a just a brief commendation to you, Anne, for the words you have laid forth, and I endorse Ranginuis commendation and the song Toro mai ringa

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NG MTEATEA ? 40 Sir, I have a quick talk with the taumata, they said there is 15 minutes that is available, which would get through some questions. Perhaps we could use that time, sir, for the Crown to put some key prepositions to this witness. This witness did say she was trying to rush through things 309

so that she could have some engagement and some discussion with counsel, and I think this is the best opportunity for the Crown to test the seminal issues of the main themes of its case. JC 5 AI JC Do you have one or two questions ready Mr Irwin? I have a number of questions, sir. I can certainly begin. Let us limit it to 15 minutes so there are mihi from this side and also from the taumata. Mr Irwin?

Andrew Irwin questions Anne Salmond [4.04 pm]


AI 10 I will just take a moment, sir. Greetings Professor Salmond, my name is Andrew Irwin, and I am from the Crown Law Office. You are familiar with the instructions of August 1839 of Lord Normanby to Hobson? AS AI 15 Yes. I quoted them in part. Yes. My learned friend, Ms Hogg, is just going to hand out a copy of those instructions to you. Sir, the Tribunal already have a copy of those, I think Ms Mehire put those in front of you, and we do have further copies for counsel and there are other copies to be distributed as well. Professor Salmond I have highlighted certain extracts in the instructions and I would like to take you through just a few of those. I was going to take you through a few more but we will try and limit it. The first extract that I have highlighted is near the beginning of these instructions, and you would accept there that the instructions to Hobson acknowledge the importance of New Zealand to the British Empire in terms of both natural resources and its geographical location to Australia? AS AI Yes. But in the next extract that I have highlighted there, the instructions do state though that on the other hand the Ministers of the Crown have been restrained by still higher motives from engaging in such an enterprise, and the enterprise that is being discussed there throughout the rest of the extract that I have highlighted as B is the acquisition of New Zealand for Britain, is it not? Yes. Well, it is colonisation actually, literally. Yes, there is reference in there to the acquisition of New Zealand further through that section, is there not? Yes. Well, if you are reading it literally it says there is probably no part of the earth in which colonisation could be affected with a greater or surer prospect of national advantage, on the other hand and then your quote follows. 310

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Just further down the extract that I have highlighted as B you will come across the reference there to the acquisition of New Zealand, it is in reference to the Select Committees recommendations to the Crown. Correct. Yes. And near the end of that reference there is reference there to the title of Mori to the soil and to the sovereignty of New Zealand which is said to be indisputable, that is correct? Correct. There is some qualification to British recognition of Mori sovereignty in these instructions though, is there not? Well, as you say, what it says here - again to quote directly is, the reason why they did not pursue the colonisation of New Zealand as sanctioned by the Crown initially was that this would be a most inadequate compensation for the injury which must be inflicted upon this kingdom itself by embarking in a measure essentially unjust, but to certainly fraught with calamity for numerous and inoffensive people has titled the soil into the sovereignty of New Zealanders as indisputable and has been solemnly recognised by the British government, we retain these opinions in unimpaired force. Yes, so the recognition here of Mori sovereignty in New Zealand is described to be solemn by the British government? Correct. In the section that I have highlighted as C there is recognition though that British policy towards New Zealand is changing. Correct. But that change only occurs with extreme reluctance. I assume this to refer to the wider context in which the New Zealand Company had raced ahead with settlement, and also a potential threat as perceived by the British Crown from France. Yes, I undertake the same assumption. Right. Okay. The next paragraph goes on to set out why the British government considers it necessary to change its policy towards New Zealand, you would accept that at the bottom of that next paragraph, the section that I have highlighted as D. Yes. The principle object of Hobsons mission to New Zealand is to establish a settled form of civil government in New Zealand? 311

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Again, you are quoting partially, it says to mitigate and, if possible, to overt these disasters and to recognise the emigrants themselves from the evils of a lawless state of society. It has been resolved to adopt the most effective measures for establishing amongst them a settled form of civil government. Yes. Would you agree, if I may ask in return, that that implies that the civil government would be amongst the settlers? It is very good of you to ask me these questions, but I would have to disagree for the reasons set out in the remainder of this document. Okay. The paragraph that I have - or the section that I have then highlighted as E. Yes. This is, you would agree, some caveat is put around the British acknowledgement of Mori sovereignty in New Zealand? You would agree to that? Yes, again, what it says is that we acknowledge New Zealand as a sovereign and independent state, at least as far as it is possible to make that acknowledgement in favour of a people composed of a numerous, dispersed and petty tribes, who possess few political relations to each other and are incompetent to act, even to deliberate in concert. But the admission of their rights, and then it says, though inevitably qualified by this consideration, is binding on the faith of the British Crown. Yes. So there still is no - that caveat on British recognition of Mori sovereignty is no diminishment of the solemnity with which Britain recognises Mori sovereignty in New Zealand. They are saying that - I assume, in the Declaration of Independence, that in acknowledging that, they had acknowledged New Zealand as a sovereign and independent state while having reservations, which have been well documented in a number of the reports, about just how that might work out in practice if it was to be enshrined in lasting sovereignty by Mori, but this is the British view, and I should state that my evidence is not about the British view, my evidence is about Mori understandings. I just want to come - the extract that I have highlighted there as F is of course the extract that you have referred to, which is the requirement that there needs to be free and intelligent consent of Mori expressed according to their established usages. Yes. To be obtained first. I want to take you to a different section though, and that is to the section - - 312

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Can we just - I think thats a really important issue, this issue of free and intelligent consent, so I wouldnt want to pass over it quite so quickly, because indeed in Paul McHughs report he makes it very plain that from the Crowns point of view, in Britain, that unless that free intelligent consent could be said to have been obtained, then indeed sovereignty would not have been seeded. Yes, and following on from that, and I wish to explore that with you in terms of these instructions. Just above the section that I have highlighted as G, there is - I have just highlighted a section there which is the actual instruction to enter into a Treaty. Correct or to treat with, for the recognition, again, I think it is important to quote in full. Authorise you to treat with the Aborigines of New Zealand for the recognition of Her Majestys sovereign authority over the whole or any parts of those islands which they may be willing to place under Her Majestys dominion. Yes. The section that I have then highlighted at G, which follows. Yes. Do you accept there that there is an instruction to Hobson to explain quite genuinely what The Triti is that he has been instructed to enter into? I think it is very plain that Hobson must have been aware that unless indeed there were such, you know, sincere efforts, that The Triti would not stand. Any kind of treaty would not stand. That is not the question. The question is whether indeed those understandings prevailed. Indeed. Can I take you then to the following section that I have highlighted there at H? Mmhm. It is almost superfluous to say that in selecting you for the discharge of this duty I have been guided by a firm reliance on your uprightness and plain dealing, you will therefore frankly and unreservedly explain to the natives or their chiefs the reasons which should urge them to aqueous in the proposals which you will make to them. Would you accept that there, again, is an instruction to use plain language, such that Mori will understand The Tiriti that is to be put before them? There is, of course, a major problem here for Hobson because he didnt speak Te Reo. So his, you know, his uprightness and plain dealing had to be mediated, and I would also wish to say here that it is well known and well documented in various reports in front of the Tribunal in this hearing that Hobson had already arrived at his own view of what the most desirable outcome for this country was, which was the transfer of sovereignty and indeed had been selected as the Lieutenant Governor elect for that reason. I think Paul McHughs report makes that plain.

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In the following section, which I have indicated with the capital letter I, Hobson is instructed especially to do certain things and he is especially directed to point out the impossibility of Her Majestys extending to the many effectual protection unless the Queen be acknowledged as the sovereign of their country, and on it goes. Would you accept there that there is further reinforcement that there is a special direction to Hobson to explain the key ingredients of this Treaty, the transfer of sovereignty? I think that Paul McHughs evidence on the importance of free and intelligent consent and the way in which this was - the instructions that were given to Hobson, I think that thats, you know, powerful, and I dont dispute that. What I would say, however, thats not the question, thats not the issue I am addressing. The good faith of Lord Normandy, or indeed, you know, I mean Hobson is interesting because Hobson had already expressed a view, hadnt he, a very strong view about how things should go in New Zealand. So he had a job to do and he was sent to New Zealand to do that job as a Naval Officer, he had instructions from his Queen and from her officials, and he would have taken those most seriously and sought to uphold them in everyway possible. I take that for granted. That is not the issue that I am addressing in my report, however. Mr Irwin, do you want to round off with one more question, and then any other questions can be put in writing. It would be great if the Crown would ask me about the substance of my report, which is about the understandings that Mori had of Te Tiriti and whether in fact the sovereignty that is being outlined here was in fact plausibly translated in the text of Te Tiriti, because that is the nub of my evidence, well at least a part of it, and the points that you are raising here, I think. I mean, from my point of view the British Crown, and indeed Lord Normandy, I think that the adherence to the idea of free and intelligent consent and of law is clear, and I think Paul McHugh documents that well in his report. That is not the problem and that is not the question. What I was commissioned by the Tribunal to do, was to attempt to cast light on Mori understandings of The Tiriti. And so I have, you know, you are asking me a whole lot of questions here about the British intentions, and strictly speaking, as indeed were the English texts of The Tiriti, they are irrelevant to my evidence. Mr Irwin? Sir, I think time is against us. Yes. Hang on, I need to hear from Mr Irwin. Sir, with your indulgence I would offer some explanation. I have been given an extremely limited opportunity to ask you some questions, and I thank you for indulging me in answering the questions. Sure, I accept that, yes. The questions were, from my perspective, going somewhere and were and are relevant to the very questions of Mori understanding. Mori 314

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understanding of these documents, from a historical point of view, is so sadly captured in the written historical record, and this is a part of that. So my questions were certainly going somewhere and, from my point of view, were and are relevant. But, tnei te mihi atu a te Kawanatanga ki a koe te whaea. On behalf of the government I would like to thank you very much. and sometimes - - -mihi ana ahau ki a koe hoki, and sometimes I would observe it is better to travel than to arrive. Thank you too, sir. Tn koe, tn koe, Mr Irwin. Kia ora an ttou e ttou m kua tae ki te mutunga o t ttou huihuinga. Trans PT Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the end of our work for the week, thank you. Thank you very much, and as important as this session is, the mana of this marae is more important and particularly our taumata and our cooks in the kitchen, and we are drawing very close to 4.30 pm, so it is not my place to mihi to anyone, it is the place, and this is the process, the taumata has asked that Charlie Dunn be given an opportunity to speak to the hui, followed by the Tribunal, the Crown, handing back to the taumata for the mihi mihi mutunga, the karakia. The taumata will then lead the Tribunal and the Crown into the wharekai to have our hakare. Now, all I want to say is that on Sunday evening after the powhiri, the supreme authority of this marae, coming through that taumata, handed over a limited authority to te kotahitanga o nga hapu Nga Puhi, and they handed it over to Rudy Taylor and myself to run that limited form of authority, to run this hui. Now, I am about to hand that back to the taumata because that is where the authority lies, and that is what we have been talking about for the last few days. In saying that, I have been asked to panui and I will summarise it. As we know, on the 28th of October every year a hui is held at Waitangi to discuss He Whakaputanga, Albert McQueen is asking that if people consider themselves to be direct descendents, mana tuku iho of the signatories, meet him down the back or find him the wharekai, and if you want to find him electronically, his panui is tonu@hotmail.com. N reira kua mutu te whanga ki a au, I mua o te whakahokitanga atu ki te taumata ko Charlie te kaikrero tuatahi, kia ora ttou. Trans CD Before handing back to taumata I hand over to Charlie Dunn. Kia ora tatou te whnau. Ehara I te mea e peke ana ng kaumatua engari tnei ng mihi ki a koutou te taumata, te taumata o te kinga, te taumata o Ngpuhi hoki. N reira tn koutou, tn koutou ng hap katoa kua huihui mai I tnei wiki te hap o Ngpuhinuitonu, n reira ng

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mihi ki a koutou katoa. E mihi ana ki ng kaikrero, ng tne, ng whine, pai atu ng whine I ng tne ki ahau nei. Trans 5 Greetings everyone. It is not as if I am trampling on our elders, but I would like to acknowledge the taumata, the taumata of home and taumata of Nga Puhi. Greetings to all the hapu who gathered here this week. The hapu of Nga Puhi tui tonu, warmest acknowledgements to you all. To the speakers, the men and the women. The women were better than the men in my opinion. Mai te tmatanga o t mtou hui ka t mai t mtou whaea a Hinepuru ki te whakatmata I t mtou hui I tnei wiki, mai I a ia me ng whine katoa ka mau ng kaupapa o Ngpuhi, n reira tn koutou ng whaea me ttou mtua hoki, ttou rangatira e krero nei m ttou o Ngpuhi. Ka mihi ki a koutou katoa. From the commencement of our week Hene Puru stood to commence the evidence, from that time to this time the women have been masterful and superb in their delivery. So greetings to the women and to the mothers. And to our elders and to our leaders who represent us, Nga Puhi. Kore ahau e whakapapa I te mea I rongo koutou a Moe Tara ko Te Hau tn, a Makarini, Titore, Haritanga taku tupuna ko ahau tn. N Kahi ko mtou katou tn o tnei whi, n reira tn ttou katoa ng whanaunga/ I will not whakapapa because I am a descendent of Moetara, Te Hau, Makarini, Titore Tehau, many of the portraits at the front, I am a descendent of those ancestors, so I greet you my kin. 25 CD I have just got something here that I have been holding for 39 years, there is taonga here, and during my boxing days I got invited to a home to a friend of a friend and he had these photos of our whaea Whina and there is rangatira here, and I have been holding this, it has been hanging up in my house, beautiful, for all these years and then last night ka haere mai tana wairua ki te kite I ahau ahakoa ehara ahau I te tangata mataku te kehua engari te atap,rua kara pea, ka tae mai te tangata nei ki ahau hiahia ana ahau te hoki ki te kinga. Heoi an ka haere, n reira kore ahau kia moe mai tn w ki tnei, , ka hoki ki te kinga I mua o te tina mutunga ki te tiki I te taonga nei. Te taonga nei te whakaahua o Tamati Waka Nene. N I runga ahau n ng whnau I krero m tn tpuna, ehara nku te tpuna nei, engari I roto tnei I taku kinga 39 ng tau, n reira mhio ana ahau te tangata harekehi nei a Owen Kingi, nna te tupuna nei. N reira Owen haere mai tikina mai t tupuna. Mhio koe ki te whakapapa. His spirit came to see me, although I am not scared of ghosts, but about two oclock this morning this man came to me and he said he wanted to come home and then he left me. So I have not slept from that time to this. So I go home, before we finish proper, to go and fetch that taonga, and this taonga is a photo portrait of Tamati Waka Nene. I heard the whanau evidence about this ancestor. Owen Kingi, he is a descendent of

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this ancestor, so I call upon Owen, come and get your ancestor. If you dont know the whakapapa, Owen, I will hold on to this portrait. WAIATA ?? 5 Taihoa, taihoa I te mea ko mtou I puta mai I a Tara, kore kau k he uri a Waka Nene, ae, [indistinct Mori 1:09:00.1] I roto I a mtou. Kia aroha mai koutou ki a mtou, ko mtou ng uri a [indistinct 1:09:11.7] ka puta ko mtou ng tangata, puta ai a Harata. N Whangaroa, tn koutou ng teina, tn ttou ng uri katoa. Wakanene had no descendents and he is entered at [Indisctinct Mori 1:09:00.1] amongst us. So may he extend love to us. We are the descendents of that ancestor.

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Ka puta a Ngti R, ana ka puta a Maru, ko mtou n Paparoa [Indistinct 1:11:06.0] ko Pokai, ko Hone Heke. Haere ki tr taha whakapapa a Paparoa waiho kia oti ake r ki a koutou m ki a au e t mai I mua ki a koutou ka ohorere mai, I mau ng taonga, kore. [Indisctinct 1:11:59.8] Maru and [Indisctinct Mori Content 4.31.05]. Maru, begat [Mori Content] begat [Mori Content] who begat [Mori Content] begat Hone Heke. Kia ora, i tnei w m ttou aianei m ttou e whakarite tnei krero. Time for now to close up our session, thank you very much. I just want to thank you, whanaunga, there is just another one ki ng kaiwhakaw ki a krua, tn krua, ki ng roia ki koutou, tn koutou katoa. Just to our last speaker, I would just like to congratulate her, and to the second last speaker, when you got up and started telling everybody except for us Nga Puhi, that you had been to law school, that you had studied Mori and know Te Reo Mori, and we have got a good thing in Panguru, we always find a nickname for people, and just going outside and someone that wanted my phone number said outside to me, oh that fellows name is dart board, because while you were standing up there everybody was firing darts at you, and you couldnt fire them back. N reira ki a koutou katoa te whnau tn koutou. N reira e ttou m hoatu ki te Tarapiunara. Kti e te whare tn koutou. Tn koutou kua tata ai te w kia huri ai te ihu o tnei waka ki te w kinga, engari me tuku atu ng aroha, ng roimata ki wr e whakahuahuatia ake nei kua huri atu, kua ngaro atu i te tirohanga kanohi. Me whakahuatia ake nei e t ttou rangatira ko Pita te huatanga ki a rtou. Heoi an ka tangi ake ki a rtou, ka maringi te roimata m te huatanga o t rtou aituatanga. I tnei r ka tangi ki a rtou hoki mai r ki a ttou ko Hokianga Whakapau Karakia. Ng kaikrero, e tuku mai ai ng krero I waenganui, ki mua I te aroaro o te rp whakamana I te Tiriti. Ng krero hhonu I rongo ai mtou ki te wairua o te krero. Tnei r ka mihi ake r ki a koutou, tn koutou, tn 317

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koutou ng taumata o Hokianga Whakapau Karakia. Ka huri r ki te taumata, e koutou m tn koutou I tuku mai ai tnei whanga I roto I t ttou tpuna whare ina r te rp whakamana I te Tiriti. Tnei r ka mihi ake r ki a koutou te huatanga o t koutou manaaki I a mtou. Mai I t ttou taenga mai ki knei tatu noa ki tnei w. Ko koutou r he tuara m mtou. Ka mihi ake r ki a koutou. Ki a koutou te kaunihera o ng rp kaikaranga, kaitono e mihi ake ana. E mihi ake ana ki a koutou I pakari ai te noho ki te rongo I ng krero. Ki a koe e te rangatira Anaru ka mihi r. Ka mihi ki a koe otir ng kaikrero, ng kaikrero o te Kaunihera. Ka mihi r te rp whakamana I te Tiriti, ki a koutou katoa tn koutou, tn koutou, tn ttou katoa. Greetings everyone. We are just about to turn our waka towards home, but before we do we must extend our love and tears to those who have passed on beyond veil. Pita spoke of them and the role they played and we lament their passing and the tears fall freely for the manner in which they passed on. So we lament for them and returning to we, the people in this house, the people of Hokianga Whakapau Karakia, the witnesses who offered the words and the stories before the Waitangi Tribunal, the deep stories, we sense the spirit within those stories, and we acknowledge the taumata of Hokianga Whakapau Karakia and to the taumata here, thank you very much, you afforded time for us, the Waitangi Tribunal, to do our works in your house, so I would also like to thank you for looking after us, caring for us from our arrival here unto this time. You have been our support these days passed, I thank you for that. To the legal counsel representing claimants, I applaud you and your keen ears listening keenly to the evidence and to you, sir, Anaru, I commend you, and to the witnesses, and the witnesses, we, the Waitangi Tribunal, acknowledge your efforts.

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WAIATA 30 Trans The sun shines through and all of the troubles of the world, all the troubles of the world fall away. Fly and soar, oh spirit, on the winds of the heavens, and with the sun shining down and the troubles that sail me, and all the worries must fall away, and all the strife and binds fall away. Despite the tears we have shared for those who have passed on, may they congregate amongst themselves and we, the living. N reira ahakoa te roimata ka maringi m rtou, apiti hono ttai hono ko rtou ki a rtou, ko ttou r tnei te pito ora ki a ttou. Tn koutou, tn koutou, kia ora ttou katoa, e tau ana. Kti Hokianganui, Hokiangaroa, Hokianga Whakapau Karakia tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou, tn koutou, tn koutou katoa. E ng minita, te taumata, e kui m, e kara m. Tnei te mihi atu a te Kwanatanga, te Karauna katoa I awhi mai nei I a mtou I tnei wiki, I tnei wiki roa. Mai I te Rtapu tae noa ki tnei r kua manaakihia mai nei mtou e te kaha a te iwi I te haere mai nei ki te whakarongo, ki te whakatakoto kai, te werowero mai I te Karauna n reira tnei te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. E te Taraipiunara tnei hoki te mihi atu ki a koutou, tn koutou. E te hoa noho mai nei ng kaimahi hoki tn ttou katoa, kia ora.

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Hokianganui, Hokiangaroa, Hokianga Whakapau Karakia this is my acknowledgements and commendation to you. To the Ministers, to the taumata, to the elders, this is the word of the Crown to you all who assisted us and supported us this long week. From the Sunday unto this day, you have assisted us and cared for us, and the Iwi, I applaud for coming consistently to listen to the evidence and to challenge keenly the Crown. So this is my commendation to you. To the members of the Tribunal, thank you, thank you. To my colleagues in law and my staff, thank you.

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WAIATA Trans We are the Crown, who goes on its path, the path that was trialled by the people, who have gone to the void. So farewell to the dead, we the living, I greet you and I acknowledge you, thank you. Apiti hono ttai hono ko rtou kua whakawheturangitia ki a rtou, apiti hono ttou hono ttou te hunga ora ki a ttou. Tn koutou. ?? Tn ttou kua mutu te Karauna I tana mihi, ko tnei te t ake nei te tautoko I ng mihi kua mihingia ki roto I tnei tupuna whare a ttou. Rangatira, kaumatua I roto o Ngiterangi tnei kua oti k te mihi ki a ia, ko tnei te tautoko ake. Kore e whakaroahia tnei w heoi an kotahi tonu te whakaaro e te whanaunga a Oneroa, Ngti Kohatutaka, Kohatutaka whakapae ana au ki a koe te whakautu. Kei a koe te whakahau I te Karauna I taku hoa e noho nei n te mea kua p k tana ringa ki runga I t rtou paipera, kore e kore pnei mau ki u krero, ng krero I krerongia e koe kua pai ttou o Ngpuhi. Tnei te tmanako ka aue ia ki ng krero I krerongia e ia I runga I tn paipera i hoatungia koe ki a ia. Mihi tonu ana ki a ttou katoa me te mahara ake ki t ttou rangatira whangai tnei aitua ki a ia, ki tana whnau n reira e mihi ana. N reira ka mutu ake I knei aku mihi ki a ttou katoa, koutou Ngpuhi nui tonu, n reira tn koutou, tn koutou, tn an ttou katoa. The Crown has completed its mihi, so I stand here to support and endorse all the kind words and I just endorse the elder kihis words, I will not tarry, I just have one word, Oneroa, my kin, Ngti Kohatutaka. I surmise that you have the exhortations to my colleague for his hand has laid on the bible. Now, if he had adhered to what you wanted with your book, then Nga Puhi would be in a much better state. References to the bible that you tried to bring forth the other day, and lest we forget, the losses that Nuke Aldridges whanau is experiencing. I conclude here to one and all, Nga Puhi nui tonu, thank you very much, thank you very much. ?? Trans WAIATA Kore t mtou waiata I oti, ka mutu t mtou waiata . We will sing our song first.

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There are three things, three very, very great things that are spoken of in the good book. Faith, hope, but the greatest of all is love. And this is my Treaty to my colleague, that they extend love. Koia tn te tono ki te Karauna, ki aku hoa e noho nei, kia aroha mai.

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[Indaudible Mori no mic 1:24:44.1] I want to thank you David, for placing your hand on the bible the other day. Most of the questions have not been answered and first question, what is the covenant of the government?

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Kua whakapapa ki te whenua. Mhio ana tn engari titiro ki te huatanga, ki ng kawenata I runga nei I He Whakaputanga me te Tiriti o Waitangi. Second question, give us the genealogy to the land, and I ask that you look deeply into these two covenants He Whakaputanga Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

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[Indaudible Mori Content 1:25:19.6] The work has been completed in this house. We ask that you go in peace because his body lies at [Indaudible Mori Content 4.46.32]. I go in peace.

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Judge, my heart is glad that you have come to our home. We are filled with joy at your coming. [Inaudible Mori Content 4.47.13]. I would like to acknowledge the efforts of the Crown, you showed perseverance in staying here and taking the hits. So acknowledgement to you because you came into this house and the hapu of this community have looked after you this week.

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So once again, thank you, the Crown, it is a one in all present. Greetings.

KARAKIA Trans 30 Father in heaven, you opened the path, we open the path to you on the arrival of the visitors in Panguru, and into our house Te Puna i te Ao Mrama, and at this, the closing of our hui, we open again the spiritual bridge and thank you for the blessings that you have bestowed upon us from the commencement unto this hour in our house. You are the well spring of all knowledge and thought and the people who pray to you also have that great thought, and the matters that have been laid down in this house, we lay before you, and the seeds that we have sown this week, we infuse into the ground and may these seeds grow and bloom, and may you make the light, sun to shine upon these seeds, and may you care and nurture these seeds so that the Island, the whole country, knows and smells a sweet scent, and we ask that you take the words that have been spoken this week in joy and in anger, that they be suspended on the laws of this house, and we leave it to the grand dame to gather up 320

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these words, and we call upon you, our Lord, to soften the hearts of each and every one of us. If someone was offended by any words spoken this week, take the pain off them. Oh, Lord, the visitors who have come from all corners of the country, protect them and shelter them as they go to their respective homes and families, and upon Tamaki, those who have come from Tamaki and who return to Tamaki, protect them on the roads, and we who return, oh Lord, the people who crossed the Hokianga Harbour may they cross safely to the mountains on the other side, and may your blessings remain upon the people of North Hokianga, Whakarapa Panguru and upon this ancestral house, as that was a shelter for us for this most important meeting pertaining to the living and those that passed on, and we offer up these prayers of clearance so that they may go in joy and in gladness that the task has been achieved. Be steadfast, although some did not achieve what their hearts desired; leave it for time to take care of those matters. But, oh, Lord, the greatest treasure of all amongst the people, each and every one of us, is the faith, and we ask that you care for this treasure as a mauri, so that truth may be a fruit in our hearts and in our works. We offer up these prayers in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. HIMENE ?? Trans ?? Hoki atu I runga I te rangimarie Go in peace. Kia ora ko te amorangi ki mua ko te hpai ki muri. Tribunal, if you can follow the taumata.

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WEEK 3 DAY 5 SESSION 4 [4.55 PM] FINISHES

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