Bysiewicz

1
6 ROUGH DRAFT PURPOSES ONLY. NOT TO BE USED AS

THE
7 OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT AS IT MAY CONTAIN UNTRANSLATES
8 AND MISTRANSLATES WHICH WILL BE CORRECTED IN THE
9 FINAL VERSION.
10
11
12
13 April 5, 2010
14
15
16 SUSAN BYSIEWICZ
17
18
19
20
21
22 Bethany A. Carrier, LSR.
23 Brandon Smith Reporting Service
24 (860) 549-1850
25
Brandon Smith Reporting
1 (The deposition commenced at 12:05 pm.)
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The date today is
4 April 5th, 2010. We're going on the record at 12:06
5 p.m. The case is Bysiewicz versus DiNardo, the
6 Connecticut Democratic Party, the Connecticut Office
7 of the Secretary of State, filed in the Superior Court
8 of Hartford. The name of the witness today is Susan
9 Bysiewicz, and this is volume 2. This deposition is

10 being held at Gersten, Clifford and Rome, 214 Main
11 Street, Hartford, Connecticut. My name is Jacob
12 Brandon from Brandon Smith Reporting & Video. The
13 court reporter is Bethany Carrier from Brandon Smith
14 Reporting & Video.
15 Counsel will now state their appearances
16 for the record, please after which the court reporter
17 will swear in the witness.
18 MR. HORTON: Wesley W. Horton for the
19 plaintiff.
20 MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: Perry Zinn Rowthorn
21 from the office of the attorney general on behalf of
22 the secretary of state's office.
23 MR. REYNOLDS: Kevin Reynolds from
24 Connecticut Democratic Party.
25 MR. GERSTEN: My name is Eliot Gersten.
3
1 I represent the republican party. And in the room
2 also we have two people, Allison Dodge from the
3 democratic party. She's representing the democratic
4 party. And his eminence Robert Martino, and you're
5 here on behalf of whom?
6 MR. MARTINO: I'm here on behalf of the
7 campaign.
8 MR. GERSTEN: And the campaign would be
9 the campaign --
10 MR. MARTINO: Friends of Susan 2010.
11 MR. GERSTEN: Thanks.
12 MR. HORTON: And I would ask that we
13 proceed without a lunch break so that this deposition
14 can be over with by 5:00. And secondly, my client
15 would like to correct two items of her testimony from
16 last Thursday.
17 MR. GERSTEN: Can we first swear in the
18 witness.
19
20 (Witness sworn.)
21
22 BY MR. GERSTEN:
23 Q Madam Secretary, have you had a chance to
24 review the deposition that you had take place?
25 A I had a chance to reflect further on items
1 that were discussed in the deposition and I would like
2 to correct two things.
3 Q Okay. My question was whether you had a
4 chance to actually review the -- a copy of the
5 transcript of the deposition?
6 A No.
7 Q And you indicated that notwithstanding that
8 lack of review, you'd like to make some corrections to
9 your testimony?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What is the first item, just topic wise, if
12 you could be kind enough to tell us what you're
13 referring to?
14 A A question with respect to the Ryan McKeen
15 blog post and my response to that.
16 Q Okay. And what was the second topic that you
17 wanted to have a chance to correct?
18 A An item with respect to David Killain.
19 Q We'll come back to both of those.
20 MR. HORTON: Wouldn't it be appropriate
21 for her to correct the record now.
22 MR. GERSTEN: I really don't have any
23 questions, Wes. If she wants to make a speech, she'll
24 get a chance you when you ask her questions. But I'm
25 just conduct ago series of questions STENOMARK.
1 BY MR. GERSTEN:
2 Q Do you have any -- and besides -- never mind.
3 Now, the first question I'm going to ask you,

4 some of this is going to go back some other materials
5 I'm going to try to make it as short as possible but in
6 connection with your resume, you indicated that you
7 worked for a period of time at Robinson & Cole. Do you
8 recall that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You have indicated in the past that you
11 thought that was four years, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And in our deposition you indicated it could
14 have been less than four years?
15 A I didn't review the exact dates.
16 Q Fair enough. Now, while you were at Robinson
17 & Cole, didn't you take a leave of absence to work on a
18 political campaign?
19 A I did. Richard Blumenthal's campaign.
20 Q And how long was your leave of absence strike
21 that. Was your leave of absence approximately six
22 months out of the term that you worked at Robinson &
23 Cole?
24 A I'm not certain of the exact time period but
25 it was for a series of months.

1 Q Didn't you actually move down to Stamford?
2 A I did not.
3 Q You didn't. Okay. You -- however, were you
4 practicing law while you were working on Mr.
5 Blumenthal's campaign?
6 A I was working on the campaign.
7 Q And my question is: Were you practicing law
8 while you were working on the campaign?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. And ma'am, would I be correct when you
11 said you don't recall the exact time, as you sit here
12 today, it was an extended period of time you took a
13 leave of absence, correct?
14 A For a period of months, yes.
15 Q And despite the fact that you took that leave
16 of absence, you're counting that within your time frame
17 of saying I was practicing law while at Robinson &

18 Cole, correct?
19 A Because I took a leave of absence, yes.
20 Q But during the period of time that you took a
21 leave of absence you just told us I wasn't practicing
22 law?
23 A Correct.
24 Q So wouldn't it be fair to say that whatever
25 period of time that you spent on the campaign with Mr.
1 Blumenthal should be deducted from your time period
2 that you say I was practicing law qualify for the
3 senate, correct?
4 A That's a legal conclusion.
5 Q Okay. What's your opinion about it? You're
6 a lawyer.
7 A My opinion is I've been a lawyer practicing

8 law for 24 years.
9 Q In your counting the time of 24 years, are
10 you counting the time period that you worked not
11 practicing law on the campaign of Richard Blumenthal?
12 A Can you ask that question again.
13 MR. GERSTEN: Can you read it back to
14 her please, Bethany?
15
16 (The testimony was read.)
17
18 A I have been a lawyer since I graduated from
19 law school and past R passed the bar exam. That's the
20 time I'm counting.
21 Q Okay. Is it your testimony today that
22 whatever time period you've been as a lawyer should
23 count towards your time period is satisfying the
24 requirement that you be an active practice of law?
25 A Absolutely.
8
1 Q Were you engaged in the active practice of
2 law while you were on a leave of absence from Robinson
3 & Cole and working on the Dick Blumenthal campaign?
4 A I was working on the campaign, but again
5 we're going to legal conclusions.
6 MR. GERSTEN: Can I have my question
7 read back? I'm not sure she understood it.
10
11 A Again, this goes back to the legal question,
12 which is at the crux of this lawsuit.
13 Q Are you saying you can't answer the question,
14 ma'am?
15 A The answer is yes.
16 Q Okay. So you are in fact counting the time
17 period that you were on a leave of absence from
18 Robinson & Cole and you worked on Dick Blumenthal's
19 campaign when you were not actively practicing law? Am
20 I correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when you were employed at Robinson &
23 Cole, who did you report to?
24 A Alvin Thompson.
25 Q Okay. And when you were employed at the
1 Aetna, 578 I correct, ma'am, you were also an elected
2 official?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Can we go back. Alvin Thompson was your
5 correct report while you were at Robinson & Cole?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q During the entire time period?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Okay. And when you were on your leave of
10 absence working on the Blumenthal campaign, were you
11 reporting to Alvin Thompson as your direct

12 supervisor?
13 A No.
14 Q Now, when you were at the Aetna, who was your
15 direct supervisor?
16 A Mel, I can't think of his last name.
17 Q Okay. What did he do?
18 A He was the head of the pension and health
19 care unit.
20 Q Okay. And when you were employed at the
21 Aetna, were you also serving as a state legislator?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Which of those two positions was the
24 full-time job you occupied during that time period?
25 A My position with Aetna.
10
1 Q How often would you spend time strike that.
2 Did you spend five days a week at the Aetna during your
3 entire time period?
4 A I believe I went most every day.
5 Q Did you spend the bulk of your day at the
6 office at the Aetna?
7 A I believe so.
8 Q Okay. Now, did you also serve as a state
9 legislator when you were employed at the Aetna?
10 A I did.
11 Q And how much time did you spend as a state
12 legislator while you were at the Aetna?
13 A I think it depended when the legislature was
14 in session. It doesn't -- the legislature is not in
15 session all year.
16 Q Let's go over your best recollection the
17 amount of time you spent at the legislature while you
18 were employed at the Aetna at your first year at the
19 Aetna, how much time did you spend serves as a state
20 legislature?
21 A Well, if I had a session, I would attend the
22 session. If I didn't, I would go to my job at the
23 Aetna.
24 Q Okay. So when you were in the session at the
25 Aetna, strike that. While you were in session at the

11
1 legislature, did you spend a full day at the
2 legislature?
3 A If I had a full day of session, yes; if not,
4 I went to my job at the Aetna.
5 Q And it's true that's the way you would
6 describe how you spent your time during both years that
7 you were at the Aetna?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q And would I be correct ma'am that the state
10 legislature meets for five months a year?
11 A Generally speaking.
12 Q And would I be correct that when you were
13 involved with having your -- strike that. When you
14 were serving time at the state legislature, you were
15 not spending time at the Aetna?

16 A If I had a session, then I would be in
17 session at the legislature, in F not, I would be at the
18 Aetna.
19 Q Okay. And when you were at the Aetna, I
20 think I've seen your resume, you've indicated you
21 worked on pension and health care work?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Prior to going to the Aetna, what experience
24 had you had in the pension and health care area?
25 A My -- none.
12
1 Q Thank you.
2 A Or limited, I would say. I'd actually like
3 to expand on that, if I may. I did do health -- some
4 health care work at Robinson & Cole because one of the
5 firms clients was the Connecticut Health and
6 Educational Facilities Authority, CHEFA. And so we did

7 do some work with respect to hospital financings.
8 Q And what you're calling the work doing
9 health -- let me see, I'll restate that.
10 Are you indicating today that the work you
11 did on hospital financing is the same kind of work that
12 you worked on when you were at the Aetna doing pension
13 and what was the other health care work?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q Were they the same? You did financings for
16 hospitals?
17 A No.
18 Q So other than your experiences at Robinson &
19 Cole working on hospital financing, you had not worked
20 on any pension or health care related work while you
21 were at Robinson & Cole before arriving at the Aetna;
22 is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And did you take any leave of absence from
25 the Aetna similar to the one you took while you were

13
1 employed at Robinson & Cole?
2 A No.
3 Q And when you worked at the Aetna then I
4 presume the Aetna was aware that you had become a state
5 legislator and you would not be available to work at
6 the Aetna during the time period that the legislature
7 was in session?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And as you sit here today, ma'am, are you
10 able to recollect and tell us precisely how long you
11 actually did remain employed at the Aetna?
12 A I don't have the dates in front of me.
13 Q Okay. So you'd need some records to refresh
14 your recollection?
15 A Yes.
16 Q ?
17 A Or look at my buying graph fee.
18 Q The only thing you would be able to rely on
19 yourself is to look at your biography?

20 A Or any kind of employment records and I don't
21 have them here.
22 Q Okay. Now, you talked much the last time
23 about having some volunteer lawyers. Do you recall
24 that?
25 A Yes.
14
1 Q In fact, Mr. Martino who is here today on
2 behalf of your campaign is one of those volunteer
3 lawyers, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Who is Kevin Murphy?
6 A He is a prosecutor.
7 Q Okay. And where is he located?
8 A He lives in Berlin. I'm not sure where he
9 works.
10 Q Okay. When -- how do you know him?

11 A I know him from his membership on the
12 democratic down committee in Berlin and I know him as a
13 democratic state central committee member.
14 Q Okay. Now, so he's a state employee, am I
15 correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Is he a member of your volunteer lawyers?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And who is Ted Dolittle?
20 A Ted Dolittle was my treasurer and -- for our
21 campaign, and Ted Dolittle is also a volunteer
22 attorney.
23 Q And where is he employed?
24 A Health net, I believe.
25 Q Okay. And in fact, Kevin Murphy was one of
15
1 the individuals who participated in drafting a response
2 to Ryan McKeen, am I correct?
3 A He did not participate in the drafting. He
4 sent me an e-mail with an opinion.
5 Q And what was that opinion?
7 (Jennifer O'Neill entered the deposition.)
9 A That he believed I am engaged in the active
10 practice of law.
11 Q So you have a prosecutor sending you this
12 opinion. Did he give you any kind of authority for his
13 opinion?
14 A The practice book.
15 Q Okay. Is he the one who gave you that
16 section of the practice book that you inserted into the
17 Ryan McKeen response you prepared?
18 A I can't recall because there were many people
19 who brought that particular practice book section to my
20 attention.
21 Q Okay. Well, we know one of them is sitting
22 here today Mr. Martino?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now you've identified Mr. Murphy. Can you
25 identify any others who brought that particular section
16
1 of the practice book to your attention?
2 A There may have been others. We were -- our
3 campaign was receiving a huge number of unsolicited
4 communications from people who wanted to be helpful.
5 Q But you indicated that you got that from a
6 number of people. Could you identify any of the other
7 people who you are referring to?
8 A The two that come immediately to mind are Bob
9 Martino and Kevin Murphy.
10 Q Okay. You've already mentioned those, and I
11 made it very clear I got it from a number of other
12 sources. Who else?
13 A Maybe perhaps David Makerwicz.
14 Q Okay. Anyone else? STENOMARK?

15 A I'm not sure.
16 Q Okay. And now I understand then Mr. Murphy
17 provided this to you in an e-mail?
18 A I -- either that or a phone conversation. We
19 also had a phone conversation.
20 Q Okay. You were pretty explicit that I
21 received an e-mail from Mr. Kevin Murphy?
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q And where were you when you got that
24 e-mail?
25 A He sent it to my campaign.
17
1 Q Okay. And where were you -- were you at the
2 campaign when you received it?
3 A Well, I receive e-mails at the campaign, so I
4 read it when I was at the campaign.

5 Q Now, you've mentioned this volunteer lawyers
6 a number of times and what I'm now going to ask you is:
7 Are there any other volunteer lawyers that you consult
8 with?
9 A Those are the main ones.
10 Q Okay. Are there others besides the main
11 ones?
12 A My husband.
13 Q Anyone else?
14 A Richard Orr.
15 Q I think we covered him the last time. Anyone
16 else besides those?
17 A That's all I can think of at the moment.
18 Q Okay. Do any of these volunteer lawyers have
19 any kind of engagement period -- engagement letter with
20 you?
21 A Not a formal letter.
22 Q Okay. Is there an informal letter?
23 A No.
24 Q Okay. Is there a letter?
25 A No.

18
1 Q So would I be correct ma'am in saying that
2 not one of the individuals you have identified as
3 volunteer lawyers have a written engagement letter with
4 you?
5 A No.
6 Q I'm not correct?
7 A Oh, there's no letter.
8 Q Thank you.
9 A You are correct.
10 Q And just by way of reference, how often do
11 you and Mr. Murphy exchange communications?
12 A We had that one e-mail that I mentioned, and
13 we have a group of volunteer lawyers that meet
14 periodically.
15 Q Okay. And how often do you and Mr. Dolittle
16 exchange communications?
17 A Frequently or infrequently, depending on
18 what's happening.
19 Q Okay. And when you use the word frequently,
20 what would you say that equates to? How many times a
21 week?
22 A Several.
23 Q Okay. And when you say several,
24 unfortunately I'm trying to get a qualification
25 indication as opposed to a subjective view. Are you
19
1 talking about meeting with Mr. Dolittle more than five
2 times a week?
3 MR. HORTON: I object to form.
4 MR. GERSTEN: I'll restate my
5 question.
6 BY MR. GERSTEN:
7 Q Do you have meetings with Mr. Dolittle
8 STENOMARK more than five times a week?

9 A No.
10 Q Okay. How often more than two times a
11 week?
12 A Are you asking about face-to-face meetings?
13 Q I'll start with a face-to-face. We'll break
14 it down.
15 A We don't meet face-to-face every week.
16 Q Okay. How often do you meet face-to-face
17 with Mr. Dolittle?
18 A Perhaps once every two weeks.
19 Q Okay. Now, I take it then in addition to
20 meeting with Mr. Dolittle once every two weeks
21 face-to-face, you have a series of communications with
22 him that are in writing or verbal?
23 A Mainly verbal.
24 Q Okay. How often do you and Mr. Dolittle
25 talk?
20
1 A Perhaps a couple of times a week.
2 Q Okay. When you say a couple times, are you
3 referring to being twice a week or more often than
4 twice a week?
5 A Could be two, could be more.
6 Q It's at least two?
7 A I think it depends.
8 Q Okay. Over the period of the past month, how
9 often would you and Mr. Dolittle talk?
10 A We're talking about the month of March.
11 Q Month of March.
12 A I would say a couple of times a week.
13 Q Okay. Is that at least two times a week,
14 ma'am or more?
15 A About two.
16 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Martino, the fellow who's
17 sitting here, can you tell me how often you and Mr.
18 Martino spoke over the past week?
19 A Couple of times.
20 Q Okay. Is that more than two?
21 A Could be.
22 Q Are you guessing?

23 A I'm not certain. I don't keep track.
24 Q Is it your testimony over the past week you
25 spoke to Mr. Martino no more than two times?
21
1 MR. HORTON: Objection. She didn't say
2 that.
3 A I said approximately.
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q Okay. And would it be greater than two or
6 more than -- less than two?
7 A I'm not certain.
8 Q So you can't recall how many times you and
9 Mr. Martino talked over the past week, other than to
10 say it could be at least twice?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Good. And how often have you and Mr. Martino

13 met in person over the past week?
14 A We haven't.
15 Q Okay. And do you know why -- I presume did
16 you ask Mr. Martino to be present today?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. And do you know why you wanted to have
19 him present today?
20 A Because there were campaign people here from
21 the other side of the aisle.
22 Q Okay. And who are you referring to?
23 A Mr. Healy and Ms. O'Neill.
24 MR. HORTON: I object. I just want to
25 clarify. I assume you're talking about meeting with
22
1 him before today you're not talking about today? If
2 you are, clarify. Because obviously it's a meeting.
3 MR. GERSTEN: You can clarify it.

4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q So you're not indicating that Mr. Martino is
6 here representing you, Susan Bysiewicz, the plaintiff,
7 that's Mr. Horton's job, right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Now, Mr. -- I'll butcher this name and I
10 apologize.
11
12 (Recess: 12:33 pm to 12:34 pm.)
13
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 12:34.
15 MR. GERSTEN: Can I just have the last
16 question read back for a moment.
17
19
20 Q Now, I will butcher the name of the young man
21 who works for matter Martino, David mark?
22 A Makerwicz.
23 Q Makerwicz. How often have you and Mr.
24 Makerwicz met?
25 A I'm not sure of the exact number of times.

23
1 Q More than five?
2 A Over what time period.
3 Q Over the past month?
4 A I can't think of a time.
5 Q Okay. And am I correct, ma'am, he was the
6 one who wrote the brief that you talked about the last
7 session that was rejected by the Second Circuit?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you have a copy of that brief
10 available?
11 A Not with me.
12 Q Okay. Would you be able to ask your counsel,
13 if I ask your counsel to produce a copy of that brief,
14 is that something you would be willing to produce?
15 A Yes.
16 Q ?
17 MR. GERSTEN: Can you make --
18 MR. HORTON: Of course.
19 MR. GERSTEN: Thank you. I meant to do
20 that over the weekend. I forgot.
21 BY MR. GERSTEN:
22 Q Now, you indicated earlier today, ma'am, that
23 you consider the time period that you spent on your
24 leave of absence from Robinson & Cole to be part of the
25 time period where you've engaged in the active practice
24
1 of law, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Am I correct -- let me ask you a question:
4 Could you explain that to me? If you concede you
5 weren't practicing law at the time when you were
6 involved in the campaign, what is the basis for you to
7 include the time period that you worked on the campaign

8 as part of your calculation of being involved in the
9 active practice of law?
10 A The -- the definition of active practice in
11 21890's are what active practice are considered to be
12 in the 18 09's and also that I have been admitted to
13 the bar in Connecticut since 1986.
14 Q Okay. So if I understand it correctly then,
15 ma'am, you're indicating that even if you don't engage
16 in the practice of law and you just do political work,
17 that's considered to be part of the way you count your
18 involvement in the active practice of law because of
19 the way it was done in the 1897? Do I have that right?
20 A In 1897, the active practice probably meant
21 simple the not retired and I have not retired from the
22 practice of law when I was working on Mr. Blumenthal's
23 campaign.
24 Q So since you were not retired from the
25 practice of law, you're counting it towards your time

25
1 period of 24 years of actively practicing law, am I
2 correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Good. And when you say back in 1897 that's
5 what it meant, what's your basis for that? Strike
6 that. Do you have a basis for that or is that -- that's
7 your opinion, right?
8 A Research has been done by my attorneys at the
9 Horton law firm on that subject.
10 Q Okay. As you sit here today, do you know
11 anything about that subject?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. And what is it you know about that
14 subject then?
15 A That at the time active practice meant not
16 retired.
17 Q Okay. And are you able to cite me to any
18 authority for that?
19 A That would be the equivalent of the practice
20 book or the rules of court in Connecticut at the

21 time.
22 Q Have you read that?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And when did you read it?
25 A I reviewed it in the brief that we talked
26
1 about, the brief draft that we spoke about.
2 Q Okay. And as you sit here today are you able
3 to recall the authority for that position any nor
4 clearly than just the equivalent of a practice book?
5 A It's the authority cited in the draft brief
6 and also our volunteer lawyer, Ted Dolittle did his own
7 research on that topic and shared it with me.
8 Q Okay. And when did Mr. Dolittle do his own
9 research on that topic and share it with you? That's a
10 terribly question.
11 When did Mr. Dolittle share it with you?

12 A In January.
13 Q Was that in January before you announced your
14 candidacy or after?
15 A After.
16 Q And when you say he shared it with me, did he
17 share it with you in writing?
18 A We talked about it.
19 Q Did he share it with you in writing?
20 A I don't remember.
21 Q Okay. What do you recall Mr. Dolittle
22 telling you when he advised you of what he learned?
23 A Active practice meant not retired.
24 Q Okay. And you had a telephone call with him
25 on this or a face-to-face meeting?
27
1 A Telephone call.
2 Q And you're indicating that he had done some
3 research, but you can't recall if he had shared it with
4 you in writing, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, do you -- in January, do you recall
7 giving a press conference and indicating that you had
8 already checked out the issue as to whether you had
9 satisfied the requirement of the active practice of law
10 before you made your declaration for running for
11 attorney general?
12 A What press conference are you referring to?
13 Q Any press conference. I know you do a lot of
14 them.
15 A I'm not certain which press conference you're
16 referring to.
17 Q Okay. Have you ever told a member of the
18 press that prior to the time you had made a decision to
19 run for attorney general, you were aware of this
20 requirement of the ten years of active practice, you
21 had already checked it out and you had satisfied it?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. Who did you make that statement to?
24 A I don't remember but the statement's

25 correct.
28
1 Q Okay. What research had you done prior to
2 your declaration for candidacy?
3 A I looked at the statute and looked to see if
4 there was any legislative history on the -- on that
5 statute, the ten-year requirement, 3-124, there was
6 none, and there was also no case law.
7 Q So when you told people I checked it out and
8 I'm okay and I satisfy the requirement, you were
9 relying simply on the work you just described as
10 checking the statute and not seeing any legislative
11 history?
12 A Nor any case law. There did not appear to be
13 anything to prohibit me from serving.
14 Q Okay. So that's what you were referring to
15 when you told the press that you've already -- you were
16 aware of the issue and you had done some research and
17 you would satisfy the statute; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did you actually go and pull out the statute
20 yourself or did you have somebody do that for you?
21 A I had already looked at the statute.
22 Q Okay. And do you recall the time period that
23 you had already looked at the statute?
24 A Yes. Prior to the announcement.
25 Q Okay. So we know that prior to January 13th
29
1 then you made this -- you looked at the statute?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you confer with anybody upon reading the
4 statute?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Who did you confer with?
7 A Bob Martino.
8 Q Okay. Was that by telephone or in writing?
9 A It was in person.
10 Q Okay. Where were you?
11 A At his office.
12 Q Okay. So this was prior to the time you had
13 determined to run for attorney general and you sat down
14 with Mr. Martino and you had a discussion about this
15 issue and you said look at the statute, that's all
16 there is, correct?
17 A No. We looked at the statute, we looked to
18 see if there was any legislative history and we looked
19 to see if there was any case law.
20 Q Okay. I guess I misunderstood. So this is
21 something you did with Mr. Martino at his law office?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You didn't do it on your own prior to that
24 time?
25 A I had been well aware of the ten year

30
1 requirement since Mr. Blumenthal ran for attorney
2 general.
3 Q And how had you --
4 A In 1990.
5 Q How had you become aware of the ten year
6 requirement?
7 A I looked at the requirement to be attorney
8 general.
9 Q Okay. And were you aware of -- that Claire
10 Nardine Riddle's position -- strike that. Do you know
11 Claire Nardine Riddle?
12 A I do.
13 Q And she was an acting attorney general,
14 wasn't she?
15 A She was.
16 Q And do you know why she was nominated to act
17 as attorney general as opposed to getting the title
19 A Yes, because she only had eight years of

20 practice in Connecticut.
21 Q So am I correct, ma'am, that you and Mr.
22 Martino sat down that day and discussed the statute and
23 you said, well, this satisfies it, I'm good, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You didn't go back then and take a look at
31
1 what you thought was taking place in 1897, correct?
2 A Correct. We did -- but we looked at -- we
3 looked to see if there was any legislative history, we
4 didn't see any and we didn't see any case law.
5 Q And that's the extent of what you performed
6 as your research to determine with Mr. Martino that you
7 had satisfied the statute that day, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And how long did that meeting last,

10 ma'am?
11 A I'm not sure.
12 Q Now, is it your contention that -- you're
13 familiar with the term CEO, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Chief executive officer?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And is the term chief -- if I use the term
18 CEO in the context of private business, is that clear
19 to you what I'm referring to?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So if you have a CEO of a private business,
22 like we'll call Travelers insurance, the CEO of
23 Travelers insurance to make it simple, okay. Is that
24 all right with you?
25 A Yes.
32
1 Q Is it your contention that the CEO of
2 Travelers insurance who has a law degree is engaged in
3 the active practice of law while he is acting as the
4 CEO of Travelers Insurance Company?
5 MR. HORTON: Objection to form. You're
6 talking about a member of the bar of Connecticut; is
7 that correct?
8 BY MR. GERSTEN:
9 Q If The Travelers insurance company has a CEO
10 who graduated law school, went to Duke, became a member
11 of the Connecticut bar and is now acting as the CEO of
12 Travelers Insurance Company for the past 11 years, is
13 it your contention that that CEO in his capacity as
14 running Travelers Insurance Company is engaged in the
16 A He could be.
17 Q That's a little unclear to me. What do you
18 mean he could be?
19 A I wouldn't know what it is that he did all
20 day, but if he negotiated contracts, if he drafted
21 legal documents, then he could be engaged in the active
22 practice of law.
23 Q So let's take both points then. If the CEO

24 of Travelers with the qualifications we just discussed
25 negotiates contracts, that's part of his practicing
33
1 law?
2 A If he negotiates legal contracts, if he
3 drafts legal documents, he could be engaged in the
4 practice -- the active practice of law.
5 Q You've used the word could be twice now. I'm
6 trying to understand is it or is it not, if we could
7 eliminate could be?
8 MR. HORTON: I object to the form.
9 A This is a legal --
10 MR. HORTON: I object to the form of
11 the question.
12 MR. GERSTEN: I'll restate it.
13 MR. HORTON: I'll.

14 MR. GERSTEN: You're not you're
15 entitled to object to form. I'm going to restate the
16 form -- restate the question. You don't have to argue
17 with me. I'm an easy guy to get along with.
18 STENOMARK.
19 BY MR. GERSTEN:
20 Q Ma'am, is it your testimony that the
21 individual with a law degree who graduated Duke who got
22 admitted to the bar of Connecticut who acts as the CEO
23 of Travelers Insurance Company would be engaged in the
24 practice of law in your opinion if he negotiates
25 contracts?
34
1 A Yes.
2 Q And why is that?
3 A If he is drafting legal documents, then he is
4 engaged in the practice of law.

5 Q Okay. What if he's not drafting legal
6 documents? What I asked you is whether he's engaged in
7 the practice of law when he's negotiating legal
8 documents. Is it your position that he's practicing
9 law while he's negotiating legal documents in his
10 capacity as CEO?
12 the question.
13 MR. GERSTEN: Okay I'll restate it.
14 BY MR. GERSTEN:
15 Q Is it your position, ma'am --
16 MR. GERSTEN: Can I have my question,
17 Beth, read back, the one that's two questions ago
18 because she answered it about drafting documents I'm
19 just asking about the negotiation of documents. And
20 there was no objection to it, so I want to do the same
21 question again without having to raise Mr. Horton's
22 ire.
23
25
35
1 A I don't know.
2 BY MR. GERSTEN:
3 Q And what leads you to have any element of
4 doubt in your mind, ma'am?
5 A I'm not sure.
6 Q I understand. Is there a reason why you're
7 not certain?
8 A I'm not sure whether negotiating documents is
9 the same as drafting legal documents. If drafting
10 legal documents is the practice of law, is part of
11 practicing law.
12 Q Okay. That's why I asked you the question.
13 So as you sit here today, negotiating a contract may
14 not be enough to satisfy the requirement of
15 satisfying -- of active practice of law?
17 the question. Would you like me to state my reason.

18 MR. GERSTEN: No.
19 MR. HORTON: Very well.
20 A What's the question.
21 Q I'll try to restate it.
22 Is the reason for your lack of knowledge
23 relating to your idea -- relating to your inability to
24 answer the question, rather, because negotiating
25 contracts is different than drafting a contract?
36
1 MR. HORTON: The reason for my
2 objection is there are two definitions of practice of
3 law going back and forth and you're not making it
4 clear which one you're talking about.
5 MR. GERSTEN: With all due respect, Wes
6 if the witness isn't sure, just like I gave her the
7 instruction, and ma'am I hope it's clear to you, if
8 you don't know what I'm talking about I'm just a dumb
9 lawyer here asking questions you got to be able to say
10 to me I really don't understand the question. That's
11 not a form objection, that's kind of what sometimes I
12 know you're not a litigator but people get accused of
13 coaching the witness. I'm not doing that but that's
14 why I'm asking if you don't ever understand any of my
15 questions, you go ahead and tell me I don't get it,
16 you're confusing Mr. Gersten and I'll do my best to
17 restate it. Okay? Is that clear.
18 A Yes.
19 Q Great. Is it the practice of law in your
20 opinion for the CEO that we just discussed to be
21 negotiating a contract in his capacity as the CEO of
22 Travelers?
23 A And the answer is I'm not sure.
24 Q And what is it that leads you to believe that
25 you can't be sure?
37
1 A He would be using his legal training, I
2 believe, to negotiate and -- and I would argue that he
3 would be engaged in the active practice of law,
4 especially if he were drafting documents with respect
5 to that negotiation.
6 Q I'm sorry, I only heard a part of it because
7 we have someone coming in with your video here. I
8 guess we're going to take a short break so we can put
9 up your second video?
10 MR. HORTON: I guess we have to.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record
12 12:54.
13
14 (Recess: 12:54 pm to 1:10 pm.)
15
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Beginning of tape
17 number 2. On the record. 1:10.
18 MR. GERSTEN: And just for the record,
19 Wes, can we agree that the interruption that took
20 place is an interruption caused by the untimely
21 arrival of the second videographer who we are

22 accommodating at your request.
23 MR. HORTON: Yes.
24 MR. GERSTEN: I just don't want it
25 counted against me down the road.
38
1 MR. HORTON: That's absolutely
2 correct.
3 MR. GERSTEN: Thanks. And Bethany, I'm
4 sorry I'm going to ask you to tell me just the
5 question I asked so I can move on to the next one.
9 BY MR. GERSTEN:
10 Q Now, then, Madam Secretary, let me just ask a
11 question I'm going to add one more element to that
12 hypothetical I asked you about the CEO. If the CEO

13 does not disclose he's an attorney, would you say the
14 same anxious?
15 A Which answer.
16 Q Okay. I'll state this again. If the CEO,
17 graduated Duke?
18 A Law school.
19 Q Graduated Duke law school became a member of
20 the Connecticut bar and served as CEO of Travelers
21 Insurance Company for ten years and never indicated to
22 anyone that he was an attorney dealing with those
23 individuals while he was drafting or negotiating the
24 contract, that is the active practice of law?
25 A Yes.
39
1 Q And why is that?
2 A Because he is using his legal training.

3 Q Okay. So is it your testimony and position
4 in this lawsuit that as long as you use your legal
5 training, you are actively practicing law in a capacity
6 of heading up the secretary of state's office and
7 negotiating or drafting documents?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And would that include documents in which you
10 indicated earlier you indicated you are actually the
11 client on?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So even STENOMARK when you're the client,
14 your testimony is you're practicing law, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you mentioned earlier that you believe
17 that in 1897 the statute was referring to someone who
18 was active who was not retired from the practice of
19 law, do I understand that correctly?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Okay. Could you describe how in 1897 an
22 attorney at law retired from the practice of law?
23 A They close their practice or they passed
24 away.
25 Q Okay. So if they closed their practice, that

40
1 would be a retirement even though they maintain the
2 title attorney at law?
3 A What is that question again?
4 Q Are you indicating that an attorney at law,
5 someone who retained the title attorney at law or
6 closed their door was retired from the practice of
7 law?
8 A Maybe.
9 Q Okay. Why is it anything but a yes or no,
10 ma'am, in your opinion?
11 A I was just wondering perhaps if they were
12 suspended from the practice of law, perhaps that would
13 be ending their active practice.
14 Q Okay. So there's a third category you're
15 indicating now, retired, death or suspension?
16 A And I'm not certain about retired because you

17 still --
18 Q Retain the title attorney at law don't you?
19 A Yes.
20 Q That's why I'm asking you how can you be a
21 retired attorney in 1897? That's exactly why I'm
22 asking you the question?
23 A Well, I'm not sure.
24 Q Now, let's assume for a moment you have an
25 individual who graduated Duke law and then practiced
41
1 for four or five years in private practice, and then
2 went to go to work as a rock and roll singer and
3 engaged in the rock and roll industry as a singer. Is
4 that person engaged in the active practice of law?
5 A Sure.
6 Q Okay. And how about the individual who

7 graduated Duke law school and worked for four or five
8 years in private practice and then went to work at a
9 kindergarten teaching students, is that individual
10 engaged in the practice of law?
11 MR. HORTON: Object to this question.
12 Are all these people are actually admitted to a bar.
13 MR. GERSTEN: I'll restate my question
14 if that's the big -- if that's a problem.
15 BY MR. GERSTEN:
16 Q Ma'am, instead of the title CEO, if I have an
17 individual who went to Duke law school, worked for four
18 or five years, joined the Connecticut bar, paid his
19 dues every year as a member of the Connecticut bar and
20 then decided to go teach kindergarten children at the
21 local school around the corner, is that individual
22 engaged in the practice of law once he started the
23 teaching of kindergarten children?
24 A Was the person admitted to the Connecticut
25 bar.

42
1 Q Yes, ma'am?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And are you indicating, likewise, if the
4 individual who graduated Duke law, got admitted to the
5 Connecticut bar, practiced for four or five years, and
6 then went to go sing in a rock and roll band, that
7 person's engaged in the active practice of law; is that
8 correct?
9 A Was that person admitted to the Connecticut
10 bar?
11 Q Yes, ma'am.
12 A The answer is yes.
13 Q Okay. How about the individual who graduated
14 Duke law school, got admitted to Connecticut, became a
15 member of the Connecticut bar, and then decided to
16 close the doors of his office, maintain his Connecticut
17 bar membership and go fishing every day for ten years.
18 Would you consider that person to be engaged in the
19 active practice of law during the time period he went
20 fishing?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So is it your testimony today that as long as
23 someone is an active member -- strike that is a dues
24 paying member of the Connecticut bar, that's engaged in
25 the active practice of law?
43
1 A If they are admitted to the Connecticut bar,
2 then they are engaged in the practice of law.
3 Q So your testimony is as long as they've been
4 admitted to the practice -- admitted to the Connecticut
5 bar, that's the active practice of law?
6 A Under one definition, yes.
7 Q Okay. And have you seen any support for that
8 position or is that just your opinion?
9 A Yes, I've seen it's in our brief, our draft
10 brief.
11 Q Okay. As you sit here today, are you able to
12 cite to any cases that support that position?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. And you've indicated that that's one
15 definition. Have you got a definition that you believe
16 is correct?
17 MR. HORTON: I object to form. You
18 mean as opposed to the first one.
19 MR. GERSTEN: Yes.
20 BY MR. GERSTEN:
21 Q Is that the definition you're relying on in
22 this case as the plaintiff in this case, ma'am?
23 A Not the only one, sir.
24 Q Okay. So you have more than one?
25 A Yes.
44
1 Q Okay. So the -- what other ones are there

2 then, ma'am?
3 A There are other definitions of active
4 practice that include many activities, in addition to
5 going to court. For instance, giving legal advice.
6 For instance, drafting documents. Or advocating for
7 changes in the law. Those all constitute active
8 practice.
9 Q Okay. So if I understand it correctly, so is
10 going fishing, as long as you have an active membership
11 in the bar, correct?
12 A There is an interpretation of -- that active
13 practice means bar admission only.
14 Q Okay. Which definition are you relying on as
15 the plaintiff in this case to demonstrate to the court
16 that you are engaged in the active practice of law for
17 a period of ten years at the bar?
18 A We are relying on --
19 Q A ma'am I'm going to excuse you for a moment
20 when you say we you recognize that you're the plaintiff
21 right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q There is no we there is only one person,
24 that's you, right?

25 A I am.
45
1 Q Okay.
2 A And my counsel are.
3 Q So what I would like to know is what are the
4 plaintiff's understanding of the definition we're all
5 going to be listening for to know how you think you're
6 going to satisfy the requirement of being engaged in
7 the active practice of law for ten years at the bar?
8 A Among other things, the statutes 9 dash 3 and
9 9 dash 4, which require me as secretary of the state to
10 give legal advice to election officials, to write legal
11 opinions and declaratory rulings.
12 Q Okay. Is there any other definition you're
13 relying on?
14 A ? Let me restate my question. You're not

15 relying on the definition that you just referred us to
16 that a person who has a law degree who became a member
17 of the bar closed his office and decided to go fishing
18 would be considered the active practice of law, are
19 you.
20 MR. HORTON: Objection to the form.
21 Which definition are you talking about Eliot.
22 A I'm confused.
23 BY MR. GERSTEN:
24 Q Okay. Are you considering -- is it your
25 position that the individual -- I want to make sure I
46
1 understand it because if you're confused I'm more
2 confused. Is it your position, ma'am, that the person
3 who graduated Duke law school, joined the Connecticut
4 bar, opened an office for four years in private
5 practice and then went to close the doors of that

6 office and went fishing for ten years, would that
7 person satisfy the requirements of actively practicing
8 law so long as they maintain their Connecticut bar
9 membership?
10 A Under one definition of active practice, if
11 the person was admitted to the Connecticut bar, they
12 would be actively practicing. Our case is not about
13 going fishing.
14 Q Okay. That's what I wanted to know. So
15 you're not relying on the going fishing example,
16 correct?
17 A That was your example.
18 Q You're right. And you said that person would
19 be considered an active member?
20 A Under one definition.
21 Q Right. And that is the definition you're
22 relying on in this case? That calls for a simple yes
23 or no?
24 MR. HORTON: No it doesn't I object to
25 the form of the question.

47
1 BY MR. GERSTEN:
2 Q Go ahead, ma'am? That is the -- is the going
3 fishing definition, the one we went over, the
4 definition, because you said that's one definition that
5 exists, is that the definition that you are relying on
6 in this lawsuit?
8 the question. You're assuming she's relying on only
9 one definition.
10 A We have multiple --
11 MR. GERSTEN: If you couch her one more
12 time, Wes, you're right I'm going to go to the judge.
13 Please.
14 A I've already said there are many arguments
15 that we are making with respect to how I meet the
16 active practice definition under our state's law.
17 BY MR. GERSTEN:
18 Q And my question to you is not whether there

19 are many arguments, I'm trying to find out if this is
20 one of the arguments you are relying on. That calls
21 for a yes or a no?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Thank you. And going back to your
24 understanding about what happened with Claire Nardine
25 Riddle, was it your position at that time that
48
1 Ms. Riddle satisfied the statute?
2 A At which time?
3 Q At the time that she was named acting
4 attorney general because there were questions whether
5 she satisfied the statute. What was your position?
6 A I wasn't aware of -- I certainly didn't have
7 a position back when that happened.
8 Q Okay. And how did you learn about
9 Ms. Riddle's -- the issue concerning Ms. Riddle's

10 position?
11 A It was brought to my attention when questions
12 with respect to 3-124 arose.
13 Q Okay. And who brought it to your
14 attention?
15 A An attorney from orange.
16 Q And when did the attorney from orange bring
17 it to your attention?
18 A Sometime after this issue came up in
19 public --
20 Q Was it before you filed your lawsuit or
21 after?
22 A Oh, I don't know.
23 Q Did he do it in writing or oral 8?
24 A Orally.
25 Q Does he have a name?
49
1 A He does.
2 Q And what is his name?
3 A Joseph Lembo.
4 Q And is Mr. Lembo a member of your volunteer
5 lawyers?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. Which just takes me one more question
8 about that. You indicated that you meet with your
9 volunteer lawyers as a group, I think you said twice a
10 month. Is that correct?
11 A I'm not certain there's a regular -- in one
12 month we could have met twice.
13 Q Okay. How about over the past four weeks,
14 how many times have you met with your volunteer
15 lawyers?
16 A Once or twice. I'm not certain.
17 Q Okay. Where did you meet?
18 A In Meriden.
19 Q Okay. Where in Meriden?
20 A Research parkway.
21 Q Okay. Whose offices?
22 A B and L companies.
23 Q Mr. Orr's offices?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And who are the members of the volunteer
50
1 lawyers who met twice at Mr. Orr's offices in
2 Meriden?
3 A They are attorneys who are helping me on my
4 campaign.
5 Q Okay. Was there anyone in that group besides
6 Mr. Dolittle, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Martino, Mr. I'm going to
7 butcher his name, Mr. Mack -- whatever his name is?
8 A Makerwicz.
9 Q Makerwicz and Mr. Orr?
10 A At various points others.
11 Q Okay. Jamie Sullivan?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And anyone else?

14 A Carol Goldberg, John lit advertise I can't.
15 Q John lit advertise I can't?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Anyone else?
18 A Robert born.
19 Q Is he the one from the northeast?
20 A Yes. Those are the ones that are coming
21 immediately to mind.
22 Q Okay. And this -- these two meetings you've
23 described, are these meetings that are similar as you
24 can recall over the -- since you declared your
25 candidacy, if you had a meeting with your volunteer
51
1 lawyers twice a month?
2 A Could be.
3 Q Okay. Now, which calendar do you use to note

4 that you're meeting with your volunteer lawyers?
5 A I don't necessarily use a calendar.
6 Q Okay. Now, in the last session you mentioned
7 you've recused yourself from any consideration of this
8 position from the secretary of state's office. Do you
9 recall that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you make some kind of written memorandum
12 regarding your recusal?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And where is that memorandum located,
15 ma'am?
16 A It would be in the secretary of state's
17 office.
18 Q Okay. And what does the memorandum say, do
19 you recall?
20 A It's one or two sentences and it says simply
21 that for the purposes of putting candidates on the
22 attorney -- candidates for attorney general in the 2010
23 election, that I recuse myself.
24 Q And did you recuse yourself before or after
25 you received the opinion letter from Mr. Blumenthal?

52
1 A I have to be -- I would like to know what day
2 his letter was written before I can answer that.
3 Q Okay. We can come back to it.
4 Is there a -- do you know if you recused
5 yourself before or after you wrote your letter to
6 attorney general Blumenthal?
7 A Are you referring to our request for an
8 opinion.
9 Q Correct.
10 A After.
11 Q Okay. Was there a reason why you didn't
12 recuse yourself before?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. What led you to recuse yourself after
15 you received Mr. Blumenthal's letter when you decided
16 you wouldn't recuse yourself beforehand?
17 A I recused myself after I received advice from

18 my counsel.
19 Q And that was Mr. Krisch?
20 A Yes, who had spoken to Perry Zinn-Rowthorn.
21 MR. HORTON: Krisch.
22 A Krisch, excuse me.
23 MR. GERSTEN: As long as the state's
24 here at the table I'm going to make a claim to get
25 that document please.
53
1 MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: What's the
2 document.
3 MR. GERSTEN: Whatever it is she's
4 referring to. Whatever it is. Her recusal documents.
5 BY MR. GERSTEN:
6 Q And you're indicating now that Mr. Krisch had
7 a conversation with the attorney general's office and

8 that's when the decision was made about recusing
9 yourself?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. And you don't recall the date of
12 that?
13 A Which date?
14 Q The date that you recused yourself.
15 A Well, it will be on the letter.
16 Q Okay. I'm asking you these Madam Secretary
17 because we're going to ask for this to be produced but
18 we have to do our best to try to identify it and you're
19 the only one who's seen it?
20 A It was probably after January 29th, the date
21 that I filed the lawsuit, to the best of my
22 recollection.
23 MR. GERSTEN: Perry is that enough
24 identification for you to be able to track it down at
25 your end or do you need more.
54
1 MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: I know about the
2 document. I can get it for you.
3 MR. GERSTEN: Okay. Thanks.
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q Now, ma'am, just one more brief question
6 about your past. Did you take any time off of work for
7 any maternity leave?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And what kind of time off did you take
10 for I think you have what, three kids or is it four?
11 A Three.
12 Q Three. I didn't know if you're counting your
13 husband because my wife would. So would you tell me
14 how much time did you take off from employment for each
15 of the maternity leaves?
16 A I would have to check with -- I recall taking
17 approximately -- I don't know. I know that I took some
18 maternity leave with my daughter Ava, my oldest child
19 and I took no maternity leave with my other two
20 children because they were born when I was in the
21 legislature.
22 Q When you say they were born while you were in
23 the legislature?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Does that mean they were born when the
55
1 legislature was in session or it was out of session?
2 A Well, I have to think about that. When my
3 daughter Lana was born, it was December 22nd, 1993 and
4 the legislature was not in session, to the best of my
5 recollection. And my son, Tristan was born on August
6 5th, 1995, and I do not believe that the legislature
7 was in session at the time.
8 Q So does that mean you did take time off from
9 your employment at Aetna for maternity leave?
11 Q Okay. And one other question. You're aware

12 that because Mr. Horton made it clear our last session
13 that you're making a constitutional challenge in this
14 case, aren't you, as the plaintiff?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. As you understand it, what is your
17 constitutional challenge?
18 MR. HORTON: I object and I don't --
19 this strikes me as getting to be harassment. It's a
20 pure legal question as you well know, Eliot. I'm not
21 directing her not to answer, but if this goes much
22 longer on that subject I'm going to claim
23 harassment.
24 A I believe I answered this question the last
25 time I was here, but our constitutional argument is
56
1 that when our constitution was changed in 1970 and 1980
2 to say that if you are -- if you are 18 and an elect

3 tore, you can run for any office in the state and that
4 language, therefore nullifies the 1897 statute. That
5 is the constitutional argument.
6 Q Okay. And are you making the argument that
7 you need not be an attorney in order to run for
8 attorney general under your constitutional argument?
9 A No.
10 Q So are you conceding that you need to be an
11 attorney to run for attorney general under your
12 constitutional argument?
13 A Under the constitutional argument, you don't
14 need to be an attorney.
15 Q Okay. That's -- I thought you said the
16 answer to the question was no.
17 A Yes, you don't need to be an attorney.
18 Q So if your constitutional argument is
19 accepted, you do not need to be an attorney to run for
21 A Correct.
22 Q And you do not need to be an attorney to be
23 admitted to the Office of Attorney General?
24 MR. HORTON: Is that the same thing.
25 A You mean to be eligible to run for attorney

57
1 general or to be sworn in.
2 BY MR. GERSTEN:
3 Q Sworn in. Thank you for clarifying it for
4 me.
5 A If the 1897 statute is invalidated, you would
6 not need to be an attorney.
7 Q So we're clear on this litigation, your
8 position is that someone who is not an attorney can run
9 for attorney general so long as they're over the age of
10 18 and are an elect tore in the state of Connecticut,
11 correct?
12 A This is assuming the 1897 statute is
13 invalidate, yes.
14 Q I'm accepting your constitutional argument
15 that I'm looking to invalidate that statute, correct?

16 A Yes.
17 Q So you would be looking to invalidate the
18 requirement that one would have to be an attorney to
19 become an attorney general representing the people of
20 the state of Connecticut?
21 A I am an attorney, so I -- I'm sorry, I'm not
22 understanding your question.
23 Q Is it your position that if the 1897 statute
24 is invalid because it conflicts with the constitution,
25 you need not be an attorney to become attorney general
58
1 of the state of Connecticut?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Now, let's talk about what you do on a
4 typical day in your position as secretary of state. By
5 the way, are you being paid as secretary of state for
6 the day that you've been here to testify?

7 A I'm taking a vacation day.
8 Q So today's a vacation day?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And last week did you submit that as a
11 vacation day when you appeared for your deposition?
12 A I will.
13 Q Okay. You haven't done that yet?
14 A Not yet.
15 Q And just to be clear, this videographer who's
16 here today, that's an expense that you are personally
17 incurring yourself, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, over the weekend or I guess it was
20 Friday, excuse me, Mr. Horton delivered to me your
21 calendar that I'm hoping I have a clean copy of so I
22 can?
23 MR. HORTON: You mean the one Thursday
24 afternoon?
25 MR. GERSTEN: Yes. I thought I had

59
1 copies made of it. I'm just looking for it right now.
2 I'll come back to it.
3 BY MR. GERSTEN:
4 Q Ma'am, I think I'm on Exhibit 9 right now am
5 I correct. What number? 10. I'm going to show you
6 what we're going to have the court reporter mark as
7 Exhibit 10 which are Bates stamp pages from the
8 secretary of state's 045 through 098 and I'm going to
9 ask you after it's been marked for you to identify it
10 for us and see if we can ask you some questions from
11 it?
12 (Defendant's Exhibit 10 marked for
13 identification. Calendar.
14 BY MR. GERSTEN:
15 Q Ma'am, do you recognize this document?
16 A I don't know. This -- it looks like it's a
17 calendar from March of 2000 and it looks like it was
18 printed out March of 2010. I don't know what this is.
19 And I don't --
20 Q You don't recognize this document?
21 A I haven't seen my calendar from 2000 in quite
22 a while.
23 Q Okay. Well, do you recall answering
24 interrogatories in this case when we asked you about
25 whether you have a calendar to produce?
60
1 A Uh-huh.
2 Q And do you remember saying none other than
3 what the secretary of state's office would produce?
4 A Uh-huh.
5 Q Do you recall that?
6 A Yep.
7 Q And as you look at this today, are you
8 indicating you can't tell if this is the calendar that
9 you operated from -- I can represent to you, ma'am that
10 the numbers at the bottom were placed there by Perry or

11 his crew or his client and we've been told this is your
12 calendar. I'm looking to see if you can confirm that.
13 A It appears to be my calendar.
14 Q Good. Now, you testified previously that you
15 couldn't really tell us what he did on any given day
16 without looking at your calendar, do you recall that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Now, I'm looking at your calendar from
19 just the first page which is dated 4/5 there.
20 MR. HORTON: I'm sorry.
21 BY MR. GERSTEN:
22 Q The first page there number 45. Do you see
23 that? Is it owe I see something about block field TC
24 event. Do you know what that stands for?
25 A It looks like it could stand for Brookfield
61
1 town committee.
2 Q Okay. And just so we have the record clear
3 because I don't know what I'm talking about, what is a
4 Brookfield town committee?
5 A A democratic town cheat.
6 Q So in your secretary of state's book here
7 you've recorded a meeting that you attended on March
8 12th, some Brookfield democratic town event, town
9 committee event; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Good. Now, that week doesn't seem to have
12 any other meetings you took place in.
13 A Yes, and I'm actually wondering about this
14 month myself.
15 Q What is it you're wondering, ma'am?
16 A Because I know I did -- I'm surprised that
17 there are no events recorded on this calendar and I am
18 wondering about them.
19 Q Okay. So it looks like it may be missing
20 some information?
21 A It does.
22 Q Good. Let me ask you to take a look at the
23 page that's entitled May 14th, 2000. It's page number

24 54 do you see it?
25 A May 14th.
62
1 Q Right. Down at the bottom it should say SOTS
2 5545?
3 A Yes.
4 Q This seems to have some recording on it East
5 Granby TC event and Granby TC event?
6 A That's the 18th STENOMARK.
7 Q Right. And those dates that would be the
8 democratic town committee for those two towns again?
9 A I would assume.
10 Q Okay. And you can see that if we go to the
11 next page you see something for the Pomfret town
12 committee. Do you see that? And then it's blank, it's
13 blank, it's blank, so if I look at this calendar and I
14 said to you Madam Secretary, could you tell us all the

15 activities you did during this time frame that your
16 calendar that you told us you would have to refer to,
17 reflected that you worked on during that period of
18 time?
19 A I couldn't tell you.
20 Q All right. So if I looked at this calendar,
21 you would agree with me, ma'am, that it appears the
22 only thing the secretary of state did was have a few
23 meetings with the democratic town committees during the
24 year stretching from March 12th, 2000 all the way to
25 December 2000, correct?
63
1 A Yes, but I'm not sure this is the calendar.
2 Q Well, this is the one you referred us to when
3 you told us you can rely on that calendar that's going
4 to tell you what I did. And it appears though the only

5 thing that's registered here are you going to
6 democratic town committee events, correct, through
7 December?
8 A Yes. And there is something that seems odd
9 about that.
10 Q Okay. Now the next question I have for you
11 is in your answers to interrogatories you made it clear
12 that you weren't claiming that everything you do 24/7
13 is part of your practicing law, correct?
14 A Can you restate that question?
15 Q Sure. In your answers to interrogatories,
16 weren't you pretty certain that you said strike that.
17 In your answers to interrogatories, didn't
18 you indicate that not everything you do all day long
19 has to do with your claim of practicing law, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Okay. Is it your testimony today under oath
22 that your attendance during the year of 2000, these
23 calendar entries we see here at democratic town
24 committee events is practicing law?
25 A It isn't.

64
1 Q Okay.
2 A However, I was absolutely working as
3 secretary of the state during this time period because
4 for instance in November of 2000 we would have had that
5 very interesting presidential election at which point
6 we were dealing with many election issues and there
7 were many media interviews, especially during the
8 months of November and December in the aftermath of
9 that election, which do not appear on this calendar,
10 which are making me wonder whether, in fact, this
11 calendar is an accurate representation of my work. And
12 that's why I'm looking in November and I know that I
13 was doing numerous media interviews which would have
14 been noted and they're not appearing on the calendar.
15 Q Okay. Well, you were the one who
16 indicated -- you guys can go rely on whatever the
17 secretary of state has produced to you to know what I
18 do as secretary of state and you said go look at that

19 calendar. Do you recall that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And now what you're indicating is we can't
22 really rely on this calendar that's been produced for
23 that time period?
24 A Not this particular portion.
25 Q It just ain't right, right? So let's take
65
1 this we'll just throw it out. That one doesn't count.
2 Let's go to another one. Let's look at a time period
3 covering the next year we'll have this one marked as
4 Exhibit 11, please?
6 (Defendant's Exhibit 11: Marked for
7 identification. ( Calendar 2001.
8 MR. GERSTEN: Can I have the exhibit

9 the one I wanted to throw out for a moment handed back
10 to me, Madam Secretary? Thank you. We're almost
11 perfect. Just so the record's clear, Bethany, I'm
12 going to take January 14th, which is SOTS 90 through
13 98, which was accidentally included in the prior
14 exhibit and I'm converting that to Exhibit 11 so the
15 witness has that period of time in front of her.
16 Madam Secretary, could you take a look at Exhibit 11,
17 please, which is the one to your right.
18 A This one?
19 Q Yes, ma'am. Do you recognize this
20 document?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. Can we agree this would be your
23 appointment calendar that you referred us to earlier in
24 your interrogatories as coming from the secretary of
25 state's office. Reflecting your activities?
66
1 A Yes.
2 Q Good. Now, referring you to what I'm going
3 to -- the March 11th date, which is at 98 there.
4 A Wait a minute. What?
5 Q The March 11th, 2001 time period, which is
6 page 98. It's the last page. Do you see where I'm
7 referring to, page 98?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Good. Is it your testimony that when you're
10 speaking to Paul Patterson's government class relating
11 to citizenship you're practicing law?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Good. And is it your testimony that when you
14 indicate that you're at the Simsbury TC event would
15 that the be democratic town committee again?
16 A Yes, although it says a.m. and I wouldn't
17 have gone to a democratic town committee event in the
18 morning.
19 Q Okay. So --
20 A They're not held at 8:0 or 9:30 in the
21 morning.
22 Q So this is wrong?
23 A I'm just curious as to why it doesn't say
24 p.m. Well, I'm not sure about the time frame.
25 Q Okay. Well, are you testifying now that
67
1 looking at it recording at 9:30 a.m., that's an
2 error?
3 A It appears to be. I do recall visiting the
4 Simsbury democratic town committee because the town of
5 Simsbury was not on the central voter registration
6 system and I was speaking to democratic town committees
7 in this period to try to get them to -- to try to get
8 particular towns to be part of our centralized voter
9 registration system which prevents fraud and which
10 protects voter rights. And was later included in
11 legislation that was passed in 2004. And in the help
12 America to vote act as well.

13 Q So if you were going to -- you were doing
14 that to the democratic town committees as part of your
15 job being a lawyer?
16 A As part of my job being secretary of the
17 state.
18 Q As secretary of state?
19 A And I am a lawyer.
20 Q And in your performance of the job as
21 secretary of state, you were going to the various
22 democratic town committees to encourage people to
23 follow your advocacy, if you will, of getting them
24 involved in the voting program that you just described,
25 do I got that right?
68
1 A Yes, because that was a component of the Help
2 America Vote Act of 2002 and also of legislation that
3 was passed in 2004.

4 Q Okay. And when I go through this, where I
5 see notations of Simsbury town event just like we did
6 before those are all the democratic town committees as
7 you just testified, right?
8 A Yes, although I have been to republican town
9 committees to talk about this and members of my staff
10 have as well.
11 Q Okay. Before we get to members of your
12 staff, I'm looking only at your calendar and trying to
13 find any reference to you go to a republican town
14 committee event. I don't see any obvious until 2000,
15 but we already know that's worthless. How about these
16 three months of 2001 are there any reference of you
17 going to any republican town committees?
18 A I know that I went to a republican town
19 committee in Waterbury to do a demonstration of our new
20 voting equipment.
21 Q Okay. So that's one?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. You've been in this office for 11
24 years?
25 A Uh-huh.
69
1 Q Do you recall any other occasion besides this
2 one in Waterbury where you went to the republican town
3 committee?
4 A I have also been to a republican -- a
5 republican town committee event to honor some citizens
6 of the year.
7 Q Okay. So that's two?
8 A Uh-huh. I tend to get invited less to
9 those.
10 Q Okay. Now, looking at the Exhibit 11 in
11 front of you. Is it your testimony that when you -- I
12 thought you indicated a moment ago, ma'am, that you
13 don't consider it part of your active practice of law
14 when you're at these democratic town committees as of
15 2000. Did that change?
16 A I am reminded that one of the reasons I was

17 visiting with democratic town committees was to talk
18 about why particular towns should be part of our
19 centralized voter registration system because when I
20 took office there were only a certain number of towns
21 that were part of it. And it actually required
22 legislation that was included at the federal level in
23 the Help America Vote Act and at the state level and an
24 election law reform.
25 Q And so that was part of your job as public
70
1 policy, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And if I understand it correctly, you're
4 indicating because you are an attorney, as a member of
5 the bar, when you are espousing matters of public
6 policy, you are engaged in the active practice of law;
7 is that correct?
8 A When I am advocating for changes to the law,
9 yes.
10 Q As a matter of public policy?
11 A As a matter -- when I advocate for changes in
12 election law, in -- for other types of law changes,
13 that is the practice of law.
14 Q Okay. And you would agree with me that
15 you -- when you do that, that is engaging in matters of
16 public policy, correct?
17 A It is engaging in public policy, it is also
18 engaging in the active practice of law to advocate for
19 legislative changes at the state level and at the
20 federal level.
21 Q And would you agree with me, ma'am that there
22 are many people who engage in that kind of advocacy who
23 do not have a law degree?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q And you'll agree with me that there are many

71
1 people who advocate in that kind of public policy who
2 didn't go to law school?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q And there are people who advocate in that
5 kind of capacity who are not members of the Connecticut
6 bar?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what makes you different from all of them
9 and why you call it practicing law is because you have
10 a law degree, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you had your dues paid to the Connecticut
13 bar?
14 A I don't belong to the Connecticut bar
15 association, if that is what you're talking about.
16 Q Okay. I'm glad you reminded me. You don't
17 belong to the Connecticut bar association, do you?
18 A I don't. No.
19 Q I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding
20 me. And other than recently, you've never paid

21 anything in the past ten years to the Department of
22 Revenue Services as a part of your active practice of
23 law, correct?
24 A No.
25 Q And you've never paid to the lawyers security
72
1 fund, other than that one instance in January 2010 over
2 the past ten years, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And that's always been paid for you, other
5 than that $55 check you wrote?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And going back to Exhibit 11, then. Could
8 you point out in this time period those instances which
9 you believe support your claim that you are engaged in
10 the active practice of law during this time period?
11 A Yes. There are meetings with legislators

12 where we were talking about legislative changes.
13 Q Okay. Go slow. Where are you referring to
14 on this exhibit, please?
15 A I am referring to various notations about
16 meetings with state representatives and legislators.
17 Q Okay. And that would be on the 18th there?
18 A That would be on the 16th with representative
19 Curry. That would be on the 18th with representative
20 God free and representative dies son.
21 Q Great. Can we move onto the next week,
22 ma'am?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Can you identify those activities that upon
25 your review reflect that you were engaged in the
73
1 practice of law during this time period?

2 A Yes. In that I was meeting with various
3 legislators with respect to the legislative session, so
4 that would be Senator Gaffey on the 23rd,
5 representative Carter on the 13th, representative
6 Fontana on the 26th, and Representative Montilla on the
7 26th as well.
8 Q Okay. Now, ma'am, all of these
9 representatives you're referring to, are these all just
10 democrats?
11 A They are but they are democrats who are in
12 charge of committees.
13 Q Okay. Going to the next week, ma'am. Could
14 you identify those activities that you claim support
15 your position that you're engaged in the practice of
16 law during this time period?
17 A Yes. There is a meeting with representative
18 Nafis and also representative Denise Merrill and there
19 is a notation about the legislative meeting with
20 mayors.
21 Q Okay. So I just want to make sure I got this
22 clear. You're talking about Tuesday the 30th?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you're talking about that meeting there

25 that took place for about 30 minutes?
74
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. And the other one you pointed us to?
3 A Oh, I'm sorry, I missed Representive Lyons.
4 Q And Representive Lyons, that's another 30
5 minutes?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And what was the other one you referred us to
8 representative Merrill?
9 A Yes. And that is on Thursday the 1st.
10 Q And that's another 45 minutes?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. So in this entire week what we got
15 here is an hour and 45 minutes spent on the activity

16 that you claim supports your position of practicing
17 law, correct?
18 A Yes, amongst other things.
19 Q Okay. Well, are you talking -- I've been
20 asking you to tell us what on this calendar amongst
21 other things but I don't see anything here. That's why
22 I asked you?
23 A What you have is my public meetings for these
24 particular days during the -- during the legislative
25 session. And, you know, and the other times I am
75
1 running the agency. And talking to election officials
2 on the telephone, meeting with people in my office.
3 Q Okay. Well, I'm looking at meetings with
4 people in your office, just on this week.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And I see meetings with Maria Tanya and
7 Babette?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q And it says something about office issues.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are you indicating that that's another 30
12 minutes that should be counted in your week towards the
13 practice of law?
14 A Amongst other things, yes.
15 Q Okay. But as you sit here today, if I
16 understood your testimony last time, there's really
17 nothing else that you can rely on besides your calendar
18 that would allow us to know what you do during a day,
19 there is no other documents, correct?
20 A There are many documents that our office has
21 produced and that our -- and that I have written.
22 Q Okay. Okay. We're going to come to those.
23 But other than those examples that you selected, there
24 is nothing in the form of any daily report that would
25 reflect that you do anything at all, other than what's

76
1 on these calendars, correct?
2 A Well, there are lots of documents in our
3 office.
4 Q Okay. Could you identify those that tell us
5 what we would look at to know what you do on a daily
6 basis because you indicated in your last testimony, I
7 can't remember what I recall I would do and I needed to
8 have my calendars to refresh my recollection. So are
9 you indicating there is something other than your
10 calendars that we need to look at to refresh your
11 recollection of what you would be doing?
12 A I'm just making the comment that there are
13 many phone calls and other meetings that I might have
14 with people in my office that are not reflected on this
15 calendar.
16 Q Okay. And where would one look for documents
17 that would reflect what you just described, all these
18 telephone calls?
19 A Well, you can look at our telephone

20 records.
21 Q Okay. And what telephone records would you
22 be referring to to tell me we should look at those that
23 would refresh your recollection?
24 A Well, those would be telephone calls that I
25 made either myself or with my deputy or with other
77
1 attorneys in our office, as an example.
2 Q Okay. And what kind of records would reflect
3 that, that you are referring us to?
4 A There would be telephone records.
5 Q Are you just talking about long distance
6 telephone charges, is that what you're referring to?
7 A That's right.
8 Q Would there be any memorandum that you could
9 refer us to?
10 A I mentioned the last time we met the log
11 books that some of our attorneys keep.
12 Q And you're aware that when you made the
13 request for the log books, the secretary of state
14 responded and said we don't have any records like that.
15 Do you recall that?
16 A I was referring to logs kept by our election
17 attorneys.
18 Q And do you recall that your office responded
19 to the request you made in formal discovery and said no
20 such documents exist?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q Ma'am, did you look at the responses that
23 were filed in discovery?
24 A I think I do and I am -- perhaps I should
25 just say that my deputy, Leslie Mara, will often make
78
1 notes on particular conversations that we have with
2 election officials. So perhaps I shouldn't have said
3 log books and maybe notes is the better term to use.
4 Q So when you made a request of your office and
5 your lawyers said -- you would agree with me that you
6 asked for a copy of the log kept by the election law
7 division of the Office of the Secretary of State
8 reflecting the division's responses to official
9 election law Inquiries during the years 1999 to 2010,
10 that was a request that you helped prepare, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And did you receive a response or did you --
13 strike that. Did you read the response of the
14 secretary of state that said the office has no
15 documents responsive to this request? Did you read
16 that?
17 A May I see that, please?
18 Q I'm going to show you question number 16 and
19 the answer which was given under oath from my copy even
20 with my handwriting on it. Did you read that
21 response?
22 A I must have.
23 Q Okay. So your request of your office

24 produced no documents, correct?
25 A Correct.
79
1 Q Now, ma'am, I'm still on this Exhibit 11.
2 And what I'd like to make sure we go through is in the
3 week of February 18th, the only entry I see of your
4 activities would be your meeting with the democratic
5 Norwich town committee, correct?
6 A That's the only one I see.
7 Q And that's at 8:30 in the morning?
8 A And that doesn't seem to be the correct time
9 because I know of no town committees that meet 59 8:30
10 in the morning. So I'm wondering if there was a
11 computer issue with that.
12 Q Okay.
13 A Generally town committee meetings are in the

14 evening.
15 Q Okay. Now, I'm looking at the next week,
16 February 11th. I'm sorry, it's page 94.
17 A I don't have a 94. I have a 93 and a 95.
18 Q Okay. Well, everything --
19 A Wait. No. It's out of order.
20 Q Okay. Thank you. Looking on this page of
21 your week, can you identify the time that you can that
22 demonstrates you were engaged in the practice of law
23 during this week?
24 A Well, as an example I was meeting with
25 representative Wade Heislope and was meeting with
80
1 senator Chris co, who was on the budget writing
2 committee, and we did those meetings in preparation for
3 an advocacy for legislation and also for our offices
4 budget.
5 Q I'm looking at that it looks like it took 30
6 minutes?
7 A Yes.
8 Q On the 16th. Correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And looks like that's about it that week 30
11 minutes spent, right?
12 A 30 minutes that that meeting took. Doesn't
13 mean I wasn't engaged in the active practice of law at
14 other times. These are simply my public
15 appointments.
16 Q Okay. Well, where would we look to find out
17 your private appointments, if not in your calendar
18 here?
19 A Well, my private appointments wouldn't be on
20 this state calendar.
21 Q Okay. And you wouldn't be saying that -- I
22 think you testified earlier that your private
23 appointments are when you go to see the doctor,
24 right?
25 A Correct.
81
1 Q So we're not counting that as practice of law
2 now are we?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay. Where would you keep a record of your
5 activities of your private activities as opposed to
6 your public activities?
7 A I guess I'm not sure what you mean by my
8 private activities.
9 Q Okay. Well you indicated that this is my
10 public calendar?
11 A Right.
12 Q And this is the calendar that reflects my
13 activities that I've engaged in as secretary of state,
14 correct?
15 A Correct. But every -- every telephone
16 conversation, every constituent letter, every legal
17 ruling or memo that I've worked on does not appear on

18 this calendar. These are my public appointments.
19 Q Okay.
20 A For instance, a democracy cup in West
21 Hartford, a presentation in Essex that week as an
22 example.
23 Q Well, you recall making a big note in your
24 calendar of spending time drafting your letter request
25 to the attorney general regarding your eligibility to
82
1 become a candidate, correct? You marked it down on
2 your calendar, didn't you?
3 A Okay. I did.
4 Q So we know of one instance where you made a
5 big deal or maybe it was no big deal of marking the
6 time you spent drafting a letter to the attorney
7 general, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Is there a reason why you have no
10 indication -- again I'm just pulling three months from
11 one year and three months from the other, there is no
12 indication of you doing any letter writing in any of
13 these calendars, is there?
14 A Not on the calendar.
15 Q Okay.
16 MR. GERSTEN: I'm going to have marked
17 147 through 152 and ask the secretary after that's
18 been marked as an exhibit to see if she can tell me if
19 she can identify this.
20
22 identification.) Calendar 2002.
23
24 BY MR. GERSTEN:
25 Q Ma'am, you can identify these documents as
83
1 coming from your calendar at the secretary of state?
2 A Yes.
3 MR. HORTON: Is this 12?
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q And on these papers, can you -- for the first
6 page -- you know, I thought I had an extra copy. I'm
7 just going to take a two minute break because I thought
8 I had a copy and I wanted to ask you some questions on
9 this one. I want to make a copy. I'm sorry to
10 interrupt the flow of questions, Madam Secretary.
11
12 (Recess: 2:16 pm to 2:30 pm.)
13
14 BY MR. GERSTEN:
15 Q Beginning of tape number 3. On the record
16 2:31?
17 BY MR. GERSTEN:
18 Q Great. Madam Secretary just to go back for a
19 moment. I'm going to have this document marked as
20 Exhibit 12 that was handed to me by the attorney
21 general's office during a break. See if you can just

22 confirm for me that this is the document. I'm sorry,
23 don't rush because we have to have the court reporter
24 mark it first, please?
25
84
2 identification.) letter February 19,
3 2010.
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q Ma'am, looking at Exhibit 13. This is the
6 document you were talking about earlier that you
7 indicated you recused yourself on?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. So we have this now, you wrote this
10 letter after you filed your lawsuit in this case?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. In what part of the -- and then you've

13 indicated since that Leslie Mara has recused herself as
14 well?
15 A I believe she has.
16 Q Okay. Did she do that in writing?
17 A I believe she did, but I'm not certain.
18 Q Okay. How did you learn that she recused
19 herself?
20 A I assume she did.
21 Q What knowledge do you have that she recused
22 herself?
23 A Well, I guess I don't have any actual
24 knowledge that she did.
25 Q Okay. So when you testified for about twenty
85
1 minutes on the last session when you said it went from
2 you and headed off to Mara and you in turn thought Mara
3 head I had it off to Bromley you've never seen any
4 documents that support that?
5 A No. I believe she told me that she intended
6 to do that.
7 Q Okay. And when you say she told me she
8 intended to do that did she do that on the same day
9 that you wrote this letter to her?
11 Q When did she tell you she intended to recuse
12 herself?
13 A When I was discussing this letter with her.
14 Q Okay. Did you discuss this letter with her
15 before you wrote it?
16 A I'm not certain of the exact timing.
17 Obviously she got the letter, and I know that we
18 discussed it.
19 Q Okay. And when did she tell you, I intend to
20 recuse myself also, Madam Secretary?
21 A About this time.
22 Q After she received this letter?
23 A I believe so, at the same time she received
24 it.
25 Q Okay. And as you sit here today, what

86
1 statutory authority did you have to delegate the
2 decision making with respect to this matter to your
3 deputy?
4 A I had the advice of counsel.
5 Q Okay. And that counsel with whom?
6 A Dan Krisch.
7 Q So you went and --
8 A And my counsel Perry sin row thorn and the
9 attorney general's office.
10 Q So Perry indicated to you as your counsel
11 that you should recuse yourself from any decision
12 making with respect to this matter?
13 A Not directly. I believe he had a
14 conversation with my counsel, Dan Krisch.
15 Q So the secretary of state is relying on
16 private counsel to give the secretary of state advice

17 on recusing the secretary of state from making any
18 decisions with respect to this matter, am I correct on
19 that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. Were there -- is there any other
22 attorney you relied on in making the decision to recuse
23 yourself and delegate your decision making to someone
24 else in the office?
25 A Other than those two, no.
87
1 Q Okay. And you didn't talk to Perry sin raw
2 thorn yourself?
3 A No.
4 Q And by this time when you made this decision,
5 you had already filed a lawsuit against your own
6 office, didn't you?

7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were anticipating -- strike that.
9 And you were relying on an adversary strike that. You
10 were relying on an attorney who's an -- representing an
11 adversary in this lawsuit to give you advice?
12 MR. HORTON: I object to the form.
13 Could you explain.
14 MR. GERSTEN: Sure.
15 BY MR. GERSTEN:
16 Q You've identified Perry sin raw thorn as
17 someone that you thought you got advice to recuse
18 yourself on, correct?
19 A I had heard from my attorney that Perry had
20 mentioned it to him and I relied on my town, Dan
21 Krisch.
22 Q When you say your aware that Perry represents
23 an adversary to you in this lawsuit, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And are you indicating now that the idea of

88
1 recusing yourself came from the attorney representing
2 an adversary in this lawsuit?
3 A Came from Dan Krisch.
4 Q Okay. So you're not relying on advice given
5 from the Office of Attorney General in delegating
6 decision making to someone else in your office; is that
7 correct?
8 A I think I've answered that question.
9 Q It would be correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Great. Now, do you know of any authority for
12 you to delegate all decision making with respect to
13 this matter to someone who's not elected as the
14 secretary of state?
15 MR. HORTON: I object to the question.
16 It's been -- this has been gone over before.
17 A We discussed this in the previous --
18 deposition.
19 BY MR. GERSTEN:
20 Q We did. Now that I got the letter I'm

21 looking for some clarification here. Do you know of
22 any authority --
23 A I don't.
24 Q That allows you -- thank you. I just need to
25 finish my question then I'll let you answer?
89
1 A Sorry.
2 Q Pro problem. Do you know of any authority
3 from you to delegate all decision making with respect
4 to this matter to someone who's not elected as
6 A I don't.
7 Q Thank you. Going back to Exhibit 12, ma'am,
8 which was the document I wanted to have copied during
9 the break. I'm going to hand that to you now. This is
10 your calendar for a few months of February 2002?

11 MR. HORTON: Excuse me Eliot before you
12 go there, we did figure out over the break what the
13 miss store about Exhibit Number 10 is. If you -- if
14 you wish to question it. If you don't that's fine.
15 A May I add something about Exhibit 10, please?
16 Q Sure. Hang on a minute I threw it out,
17 remember now I'm bringing it back. Okay.
18 A During the break, I spoke with my scheduler
19 to ask her why town committees might be appearing in
20 the morning and why there didn't appear to be much on
21 the calendar for many months and she indicated that
22 scheduler by the name of Babette Mantilla, who preceded
23 her, had kept calendars on a different program,
24 computer program. And there -- and that may not have
25 been -- that information may not have been properly
90
1 transferred to this calendar and maybe the reason why,

2 you know, town committees are bizarrely appearing on
3 occasion in the early morning, something looks a little
4 strange about this calendar. And she confirmed that
5 that's when in 2000 we started using a different kind
6 of a -- we changed from one program to another.
7 Q What's her name?
8 A Her name is Tammy Marzik.
9 Q And she's the one whose name appears down
10 here as the one who printed out this calendar that
11 day?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Right? And are you indicating she worked for
14 you in March of 2000?
15 A No, I'm saying that Babette Mantilla who is
16 mentioned on this schedule on Exhibit 12 was the
17 scheduler and Tammy was saying that Babette used a
18 different type of program in 2000. And so maybe the
19 reason why there isn't anything on here when I know I
20 was very busy in 2000, particularly after the
21 presidential election.
22 Q So we can't rely on these calendars anyway if
23 I understand your clarification to demonstrate what
24 work you were doing during that time period, correct?

25 A This doesn't appear to show that, yes.
91
1 Q Okay. I'm asking you that ma'am because you
2 were very clear in the last session that we got to look
3 at your calendars to refresh your recollection for us
4 to know what you would have been doing during a period
5 of time and you were very specific in saying 2000. Do
6 you recall that?
7 A I recall that's it's been a while since I
8 looked at my 2000 calendar.
9 Q Okay. But what you're saying now is that we
10 can't rely on Exhibit 10 to tell us what you did during
11 the day for that period?
12 A I don't believe Exhibit 10 has the correct
13 information on it.
14 Q And as you sit here today even with the

15 explanation do you know of a calendar that exists that
16 would contain the correct information that would allow
17 us to know what you were doing?
18 A I'm not sure I would have to do a little more
19 investigation on that.
20 Q Okay. And when you answered the questions to
21 interrogatories in this case and you indicated we could
22 rely on what the secretary of state's office was
23 producing, this was the calendar you were referring us
24 to specifically in your answer, do you recall that?
25 A Yes.
92
1 Q Okay. But there is some other document,
2 right? There is some other document you think that
3 would be more --
4 MR. HORTON: Objection. I thought she
5 said --
6 MR. GERSTEN: You're right. Bad
7 question.
8 BY MR. GERSTEN:
9 Q Moving onto Exhibit 12, ma'am. Can you take
10 a look at this calendar and indicate -- and confirm for
11 me this is the calendar covering the time period of
12 February 2002 through this one goes through March
13 2002?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. Now, looking at Exhibit 12 at page
16 147, ma'am.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Could you indicate to me -- first of all we
19 have some personal days noted on this one, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. So we're not -- are you claiming
22 strike that.
23 Can you identify those entries on this
24 calendar, just this week's worth of calendar that
25 reflect the time you claimed was spent practicing law

93
1 as the secretary of state?
2 A Well, for instance, on the 19th I was talking
3 to two -- three media outlets regarding the address
4 confidentiality program, which is now a matter of state
5 law, which was the subject of a law revision commission
6 study to help us create it and we advocated it for
7 legislation to create it within our office and it is
8 now part of state law and it is administered in our
9 commercial recording department.
10 Q Okay. That's the day that's marked as
11 president's day, right?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Any other instances?
14 A Yes. On Wednesday, the 20th, I was
15 testifying at a government administration and elections
16 hearing.
17 Q Okay.
18 A So I was speaking about bills that would

19 affect our office and that I'm sure our office was
20 supporting.
21 Q Okay. Any other entries on this particular
22 page reflecting the work you claim you did as
23 practicing law?
24 A Those would be reflective of work that we
25 were doing in our office.
94
1 Q Okay. Just so I'm clear because I'm
2 concerned about some prior testimony. You do have
3 marked down here things like visits to the doctor or
4 physical therapy I'm presuming is a doctor type visit.
5 Is that -- you have personal date information on this
6 calendar that --
7 A Yes and that should have been removed.
8 Q When you say it should have been removed, why
9 should it have been removed?

10 A Because doctor's visits are not disclosed
11 under freedom of information.
12 Q Okay.
13 A Sorry.
14 Q But in terms of giving a full picture of how
15 the secretary of state spends her day, this page, for
16 example, reflects how you spent your day during each
17 day this week, correct?
18 A It certainly reflects things -- particular
19 things that I did.
20 Q And it includes personal information?
21 A It does.
22 Q Now moving onto the next week let me restate
23 that just for a moment. For the week then of February
24 17th if we take what you identified here we have
25 approximately four hours and 30 minutes of time during
95
1 that week that you spent practicing law, if I add up
2 everything correctly?
3 A No, because there were other things that I
4 could have been doing and -- I'm sorry can you restate
5 the question, please.
6 Q Sure. Based upon your testimony in your
7 reference to your calendar, letting us know that this
8 would reflect your activities, the activities that are
9 reflected in this calendar week total approximately
10 four hours and 30 minutes of time spent practicing law
11 based upon our review of this document; is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, ma'am, going to the next page, which is
15 February 24th and we're moving into March now, would
16 you be kind enough to identify those entries that you
17 claim support your position that you were engaged in
18 the active practice of law during this week?
19 A One example is we were advocating for our
20 address confidentiality program that later became law
21 on the 26th of the month.
22 Q Would that be the interview with Mr. Thompson

23 that you're referring us to?
24 A That would be correct. And also that would
25 be one public thing.
96
1 Q And when you say one public thing what are
2 you referring to ma'am. I'm looking for any evidence
3 on this document, public, private, semipublic,
4 semiprivate?
5 A Because this doesn't record everything that I
6 did in the administration of my office.
7 Q Okay. But again, this is the only document
8 we've been able to see that reflects it just as you
9 said to us in your earlier testimony, this will help
10 you refresh your recollection?
11 A Yes, although excuse me, let me add that I
12 have several meetings noted on the 27th regarding the
13 centralized voter registration system and getting all

14 of the towns to join that system and it was critical
15 that all towns be on it because the Help America Vote
16 Act was in the process of being drafted in 2002 and I
17 advocated for providing that every state have a
18 centralized voter registration system and West Hartford
19 was not on it, I believe Mr. Harris was the mayor and I
20 met with him to ask him include his town and to get his
21 town to be part of that.
22 I also have meetings with at least one
23 legislator Mary Eberly, and I presume that's about
24 legislation.
25 Q Okay. Anything else?
97
1 A That would be it.
2 Q All right. So if I add this week up
3 correctly you've got an hour 45 minutes that you can

4 identify as having something to do with the practice of
5 law for the week of February 24th, 2002 to March 2nd,
6 2002, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Great. Moving to the next page, March 3rd,
9 2002. I'm going to ask you again to go through this
10 and identify those instances in which you indicate that
11 this calendar reflects activities that you think
12 support your position you were engaged in the practice
13 of law?
14 A There is a meeting with mayor positive lack
15 that could have been about our centralized voter
16 registration.
17 Q Can you refer me to the date, ma'am?
18 A I'm sorry that would have been --
19 Q Oh, the 4th. Okay?
20 A The 4th.
21 Q Yes.
22 A And also there is a meeting about the voting
23 alternatives commission meeting and at that point we
24 knew that we were going to have to start looking at new
25 voting technologies so that we could be compliant with

98
1 the federal law, and also we were working on state law
2 changes as well. So that's another example.
3 Q And what date is that, ma'am?
4 A That would be on the 4th as well.
5 Q Okay. Any other things on this page?
6 A Yes. And there was my prep time for
7 testimony to -- and I often had preparation scheduled
8 to go over testimony on particular bills and advocacy
9 before -- generally the government administration and
10 elections committee.
11 Q Are you referring to the entry on the 8th?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And MMG would be whom?
14 A Maria March rain that Greenslate, my
15 deputy.
16 Q So that's a meeting you're having with a
17 deputy?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Concerning preparation time for testimony and
20 that's considered by --
21 A Yes that is a meeting to go over testimony.
22 Q And in that testimony is activity that you
23 claim supports your position that you are actively
24 practicing law as secretary of state, correct?
25 A Yes, because the monitoring of legislation,
99
1 testifying in favor of or against particular
2 legislation is the practice of law. Also I would
3 direct you to March 7th. We have regular policy
4 meetings and at those we discuss various pieces of
5 legislation. There is a Maria meeting and a policy
6 meeting and when we had policy meetings, we would talk
7 about various pieces of legislation that would be

8 proposed at the legislature.
9 Q And again that would be a -- when you call it
10 policy, that's public policy meeting, right?
11 A Or legislative policy.
12 Q Okay. Now, if I add that up correctly now
13 then I'm talking about one hour, hour and a half,
14 probably a total of six hours that week that you spent
15 actively practicing law that week, based upon your
16 documents?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Good. I'm going to ask you to move to the
19 next page, ma'am, of March 10th. And on a typical day,
20 ma'am, when do you show up at your office when you
21 engage in the active practice of law?
22 A Around 9:00-ish, 9:00.
23 Q What time do you consider closing day,
24 closing of the day?
25 A When the work is done.
100
1 Q And generally speaking, when would that be?
2 A It really depends because I work, you know,
3 whenever it's necessary, whether it's on a Sunday,
4 whether it's on a Saturday, whether it's on a holiday,
5 whether it's in the evenings, whether it's in the early
6 morning.
7 Q All right. So you're not limiting yourself
8 to a 40 hour week, correct?
9 A What does that mean?
10 Q In order to earn your pay as secretary of
11 state, you don't consider that to be something that a
12 9:00 to 5:00 job, am I correct?
13 A No.
14 Q And you wouldn't consider yourself to be
15 somebody who works only 40 hours a week on a general
16 basis, correct?
17 A No.
18 Q And that would be throughout your career here
19 from 2000 to today you work more than 40 hours a
20 week?
21 A I do.
22 Q Great. During the week of March 10th, ma'am,
23 could you point out those instances in which you
24 indicate that you were engaged in the active practice
25 of law?
101
1 A Yes.
2 Q Go ahead. Would you be so kind?
3 A It looks like on Sunday evening it starts to
4 say prep for and it looks like testimony, because then
5 the next day on the 11th I prepared for my testimony
6 before the G A E hearing and the judiciary hearing as
7 well.
8 Q So if we got that Sunday highlighted. Then
9 we got the judiciary committee hearing?
10 A A testimony prep from 10:15 to 12:00 and then
11 the G A E hearing from 12:00 to 1:00 and then the

12 judiciary hearing from 2:00 to 4:00.
13 Q Okay. Any other occasions that you see
14 marked in your calendar that reflect activities that
15 you engaged in the practice of law?
16 A Yes. There is a reference on the 12th to E D
17 R and CVR. It looks like I was speaking to the media
18 about election day registration in our centralized
19 voter registration bills, which were pending.
20 Q Any other occasions?
21 A Those are the ones that I see right there.
22 Q Okay. Now, in your entry on Monday when you
23 were at the G A E committee and at the judiciary
24 committee, you didn't represent to either of those
25 legislative bodies that you were an attorney,
102
1 correct?
2 A No, because I sat on the judiciary committee

3 when I was in the legislature for six years and many of
4 the members already knew that. I didn't feel it was
5 necessary.
6 Q Okay. Whether you thought it was necessary
7 or not, if someone is just sitting out in the audience
8 and listening to you talk, they didn't know you, you
9 didn't do anything to identify yourself as I'm here as
10 the secretary of state and I am an attorney letting you
11 know about my position on these issues, correct?
12 MR. HORTON: I object because you went
13 overall this last time.
14 MR. GERSTEN: Actually, I didn't. But
15 go ahead.
16 BY MR. GERSTEN:
17 Q Madam Secretary?
18 A No, I did not indicate I was a lawyer to
19 either committee.
20 Q And would you agree with me, ma'am, that
21 members of the public sitting in on those hearings,
22 those were members of -- if they live in Connecticut,
23 those are constituents of yours, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And those are people you consider to be I

103
1 think you used the word clients also, didn't you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And there's no way that anyone listening to
4 you speaking that day on March 11th for looks like four
5 hours would have known that you were talking as a
6 lawyer unless you told them that, correct?
7 A Not specifically. It is a very small world
8 at the Capitol, however.
9 Q Okay but we're not talking about people who
10 are members of a small world we're talking about
11 members of the people sitting there watching you
12 testify. No members of the public would know you're a
13 lawyer when you are talking would they unless you
14 identified yourself?
15 A Unless they had personal knowledge.

16 Q Okay. Miles Rappaport got up there and
17 testimony like you did?
18 A He certainly did.
19 Q As did every other secretary of state before
20 you, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And they -- we've already established they
23 weren't lawyers?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So there is nothing you said to identify you
104
1 to members of the public who didn't know you that you
2 were speaking as an attorney when you spoke, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q I'm going to move onto the next week for a
5 moment, ma'am. Oh, I'm sorry let me go back to one
6 thing I missed it. On the 16th, it said preparation of

7 ethics filing. What was that, ma'am?
8 A Oh, that's just ethics filing that all public
9 officials are required to file in May.
10 Q Okay. And that's something that as secretary
11 of state, you're required to file because you are a
12 public official?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And as a public official, you are involved in
15 matters of public policy, aren't you?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Moving to the next week. We got a
18 bunch of entries here relating to a lot -- appears to
19 me to be personal items, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. So would it be correct --
22 A I'm not sure why they printed out several
23 times but --
24 Q No problem. Looking at this document, ma'am,
25 can you identify the time that's reflected here where

105
1 you are engaged in the practice of law?
2 A Yes. We are -- on a couple of occasions I
3 have meetings with representative dies son and also
4 there is a reference to a league of women voters panel,
5 and when I speak with the league of women voters that
6 is on the 18th, it is to advocate for changes to our
7 election system.
8 Q Okay. Any other indications on your calendar
9 here of your activities and where you practice law?
10 A I think that's it for that anyway.
11 Q That's great. Moving to the week of March
12 24th of that year. Do you see any reflexes of
13 activities you engaged in where you were seeking -- in
14 where you were engaged in the practice of law?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And when is that, ma'am?
17 A That would be on the 27th of the month
18 preparing for a press conference on voters with
19 disabilities issues on the 28th, because one of the

20 issues with the Help America Vote Act has to do with
21 making sure that voting technology is accessible to
22 people with disabilities. Also there is a meeting with
23 registrar regarding the centralized voter registration
24 system and still we were engaged in this effort to make
25 sure that all of the towns would participate and it was
106
1 not until 2004, 2005 that all of the towns became part
2 of that system and that all of the towns were part of
3 it. And then there was a press conference on the 28th
4 regarding voters with disabilities issues. And again,
5 this is a civil rights issue.
6 Q Okay. Are you the draftsman of this civil
7 rights law that you're referring to?
8 A I advocated for provisions that were
9 ultimately put into the Help America Vote Act with
10 respect to the centralized voter registration system

11 and one of the marriage tenants in the Help America
12 Vote Act is to ensure that people with disabilities
13 could vote privately and independently and it is part
14 of my job as the chief elections official for the state
15 to make sure that our state complies with federal civil
16 rights law.
17 Q Okay. Now, by the way you had a meeting with
18 rabbi Alan Lazowski by the way on the 25th?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Was that a fundraising meeting?
21 A No. Rabbi Lazowski is the -- I don't know if
22 chaplain is the correct word but he is the -- he is
23 often one of the people who says the prayer at the
24 beginning of the session.
25 Q So you were meeting with him in connection
107
1 with him giving the prayer at the beginning of the
2 session?
3 A No. That was just a personal meeting.
4 Q It wasn't any kind of fundraising activity?
5 A I don't believe so.
6 Q Okay. I'm going to move onto another April.
7 April 6th and have this -- starts at 206 and have this
8 marked as an exhibit.
11 identification.) calendar April
12 2003.
13 BY MR. GERSTEN:
14 Q Ma'am, you recognize this as part of another
15 portion of your calendar that we've had produced to
16 us?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And if you would be kind enough to take a
19 look at page 206 of Exhibit 14, can you identify those
20 entries on this page that you claim support your
21 position that you are engaged in the active practice of
22 law?
23 A Yes. There are meetings with legislators,

24 senator Harp and Representative Montilla noted on the
25 7th. And also there is a policy meeting where we --
108
1 our staff members would often discuss legislative
2 issues.
3 Q What date is that you're referring to me?
4 A I'm sorry, that would be the 9th.
5 Q Okay.
6 A Oh, and also on the 10th of April, there is a
7 meeting with Maria regarding the direct primary and it
8 may have been around this time that the -- we had to
9 rewrite the direct primary laws because there was a
10 challenge to the Connecticut primary law, so I'm not
11 sure of the time frame but that could have been about
12 that.
13 We had a group that our office put together
14 involving the legislature and the parties regarding

15 direct primary and just going back to your policy
16 meeting that you indicated here with Babette Mantilla.
17 Who -- in looking at this document, besides Babette,
18 are you able to identify anyone who participated in
19 that policy meeting.
20 A Generally it was Maria, my legislative
21 liaison, Babette my chief of staff.
22 Q So it would be your chief of staff, your
23 scheduling person Maria?
24 A My deputy, some of my executive staff.
25 Q Okay?
109
1 A Legislative liaison, my scheduler, my chief
2 of staff, my deputy, my press secretary.
3 Q Press secretary, too?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So that's everything this week. What about
6 the next week?
7 A The -- on the 14th I had a speaking
8 engagement regarding the Help America Vote Act and that
9 was on the 14th. And on the 15th, we had one of our
10 registrar of voter conferences and that would be at the
11 point where we would -- our office would be presenting
12 information as to how to comply with election laws and
13 it was -- this would have been a time when we would
14 have been explaining to the registrar the new
15 requirements in the Help America Vote Act and what that
16 might mean and we would also be talking about some of
17 our legislative initiatives.
18 Q That's the one you did at the Mohegan Sun?
19 A That's right.
20 Q Any other instances besides that occasion at
21 the Mohegan Sun when you were practicing law that
22 week?
23 A Yes and there was a Help America Vote Act
24 meeting on the 16th and under the Help America Vote
25 Act, states were required to prepare state plans and we

110
1 had a very large committee of people who participated
2 in the discussing and creating of our state plan.
3 Q And by the way, ma'am, in those meetings that
4 you had either at the Mohegan Sun or this second
5 meeting that you mentioned, did you tell everybody
6 you're a lawyer?
7 A No.
8 Q You were speaking from your position as
9 secretary of state, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Any other occasions in which you claim your
12 calendar supports your position that you were engaged
13 in activities that week showing that you were
14 practicing law?
15 A Yes. There are other interviews with the
16 press and there is one on the 15th that says regarding
17 direct primary. I believe this was the time where
18 there was a lawsuit involving the direct primary and

19 the legislature was required to rewrite our primary
20 law.
21 Q Okay. Anything else on this page?
22 A That's it. And there is actually on the 16th
23 there is an interview with respect to voting machines.
24 And again in 2003 we were beginning to educate people
25 about how we, as a state, had to comply with the Help
111
1 America Vote Act and federal civil rights law and the
2 steps our state was taking in order to make sure that
3 we were in compliance.
4 Q And your testimony today is that when you
5 give an interview and educate people about how we're
6 going to comply with the new law, you are acting as an
7 attorney when you give these interviews in your
8 capacity as secretary of state?

9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And if I ask you to take a look at the
11 next week, ma'am, of April 20th.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Could you identify the occasions in which
14 this calendar reflects that you are engaging in
15 activities that demonstrate that you were engaged in
16 the practice of law?
17 A Yes. Because there are various references to
18 conversations concerning our centralized voter
19 registration system where we were advocating for
20 mandatory CVR legislation at the state level and it was
21 already part of the Help America Vote Act, so I'm
22 referring to the 22nd. And also --
23 Q Could you slow down for a moment. What entry
24 on the 22nd are you referring to there, ma'am?
25 A The telephone conference with Maria.
112
1 Q Thank you. That's why I wanted to make sure
2 we had that. And also there are various legislative
3 meetings, there is representative Boukus on the 25th
4 and there is a telephone conversation with Marisa
5 Morello and Mary para seen no regarding Help America
6 Vote funding because there are various types of funding
7 there were available under that law. And we were in
8 the process of making sure that our state applied for
9 the correct funding?
10 Q Okay. So we've got those two telephone calls
11 this week. Any other occasions on this week?
12 A Yes. And there is a meeting with Ralph
13 Cappanara regarding a direct primary question. And
14 that could have been about the issue with respect to
15 how you go about primarying.
16 Q So that week between the two telephone calls
17 and the discussion with Ralph, we've got 32 and a half
18 hours worth of time you spent either on the telephone
19 or in person engaged in the practice of law that
20 week?
21 A Among other things, yes.
22 Q Then I'm going to turn you to the following

23 week of April 2003.
24 A Again, we have a number of calls and meetings
25 regarding the Help America Vote Act and other election
113
1 law topics. So for instance, on Monday the 28th the
2 conference call regarding the Help America Vote Act
3 meeting with my deputy with two staff people regarding
4 the help America Vote Act. A meeting with
5 representative Heislope and the interview regarding
6 election day registration in our centralized voter
7 registration system also on the 28th.
8 Opt 29th, we again had one of our HAVA
9 meetings at the legislative office building that we
10 were required to have by the Help America Vote Act to
11 put together our state plan and various conversations
12 with my deputy and the attorney general about Help

13 America Vote topics and we were starting as well to
14 begin to make a transition to start looking for which
15 types of voting machines would meeting the Help America
16 Vote Act.
17 And.
18 Q Looks like he even had a telephone call with
19 your attorney there on the 29th concerning HAVA?
20 A Why, I did. I mentioned that I had a
21 telephone call with Richard Blumenthal and my deputy
22 Maria Greenslade is an attorney as well.
23 Q Well, you're not saying that your deputy
24 excuse me, you're not indicating that because your
25 deputy is an attorney that she's your lawyer too,
114
1 right?
2 A She was a lawyer who worked in my office.
3 Q Okay. Did she do legal work?

4 A Yes. Absolutely.
5 Q Okay. And is -- when you -- I'm sorry, keep
6 going. I'm sorry. Any other instances in which you
7 claim you've engaged in the practice of law this week?
8 A Also a conversation that I see with my deputy
9 on the 2nd of May.
10 Q Okay. Is that the one that says office
11 issues or voting machines?
12 A That would be voting machines.
13 Q Okay. So your testimony is --
14 A And office issues could have perhaps
15 included --
16 Q Your testimony is any time my deputy and I
17 talk about voting machines, we're practicing law
18 because she's an attorney and I'm an attorney?
19 A No.
20 Q Okay?
21 A Because when we are talking about voting
22 machines, we are talking about the search and the task
23 that we were charged with under the Help America Vote
24 Act to find voting machines that would comply with the
25 various several rights component of the Help America

115
1 Vote Act, namely that there be voter verified paper
2 trail and also that those machines would be accessible
3 to people with disabilities.
4 Q Now on Thursday the 1st I see you had a
5 personal meeting there that's included on your office
6 calendar, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And that's a personal meeting with up dike
9 Kelly?
10 A That was a personal meeting at up dike
11 Kelly.
12 Q Oh, I see. Was that one of your volunteer
13 lawyer meetings?
14 A I'm not sure what that was, but it was a
15 personal meeting.
16 Q Was that a fundraising meeting?

17 A I'm not sure.
18 Q Do you engage in fundraising during the
19 middle of the day at all?
20 A When I have a campaign, I have a separate
21 office set up outside of my secretary of the state
22 office and a separate committee set up to assist in
23 fundraising.
24 Q Okay. Could I have the -- I think the
25 witness may have misunderstood my question. I was
116
1 wondering if we could give it back to her so she could
2 answer the question, please?
6 A What do you mean by middle of the day?
7 BY MR. GERSTEN:
8 Q Well, I'm looking at a calendar April 27th,
9 2003 through May 3rd, 2003, for example. If I was
10 going to refer to the middle of the day I would say
11 somewhere between 11:30 and 2:30. Does that better
12 define it? I'm trying to figure out your day. That
13 looks like the middle of your very, very long day.
14 Would I be correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. If that definition is accepted by you,
17 could you tell me do you engage in any fundraising
18 activities during the middle of the day?
19 A It depends.
20 Q What does it depend on?
21 A Whether I have a campaign and whether I am
22 doing fundraising. It depends on whether I have a
23 campaign first of all and I do fundraising on my own
24 time.
25 Q Okay. Well, let's take over the past three

117
1 months. Are you in a campaign?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Okay. Do you engage in any fundraising for
4 that campaign?
5 A I do.
6 Q And do you engage in any fundraising during
7 the middle of the day for the campaign that you've been
8 engaged in over the past three months?
9 A It depends.
10 Q And what does it depend upon?
11 A The day.
12 Q Okay. When's the last time you engaged in
13 any fundraising during the middle of the day?
14 A When I took a day off on I believe March
15 29th.
16 Q Okay. And before March -- and you engaged in
17 campaigning fundraising on March 29th, is that your
18 testimony?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And prior to March 29th, did you engage in

21 any fundraising during the middle of the day?
22 MR. HORTON: You mean ever or this
23 year.
24 MR. GERSTEN: This year.
25 BY MR. GERSTEN:
118
1 Q In the three month period since January?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When was the time before March 29th that you
4 engaged in fundraising your for your current campaign
5 during the middle of the day?
6 A Between that particular 11:30 and 2:00 time
7 frame is that what we're talking about?
8 Q That's how we agreed to define middle of the
9 day. Would you feel more comfortable with a different
10 definition?
11 A No that's fine. The answer is I don't know.

12 I know that on the 29th I took the day off to do
13 fundraising.
14 Q Okay. And would your calendar reflect
15 that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q So a calendar of March 29th would reflect day
18 off, correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Personal day?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Just like the personal day or vacation day
23 that you're taking to have your deposition taken,
24 right?
25 A Yes.
119
1 Q Now, have you engaged in fundraising during

2 the middle of the day when you don't take a full
3 personal day off over the past three months?
4 A I could have.
5 Q Okay. Is there any element of doubt in your
6 mind?
7 A No.
8 Q So I ask you that Madam Secretary, because
9 could have sounds rather speculative. I just want to
10 make sure you're not speculating.
11 A I'm not.
12 Q Okay. How many times a week in March of 2010
13 have you taken time to make fundraising calls during
14 the middle of the day?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Okay. What would you have to look at?
17 That's terrible. When you say you don't know is it
18 because you don't remember or you don't know?
19 A I have many things to do on a particular day,
20 so I'm not sure.
21 Q Okay. When you say you're not sure is it
22 because you don't remember or you don't know?
23 A .
24 MR. HORTON: I don't understand the

25 difference between those two. Could you -- I object
120
1 to the question. It sounds like the same thing to
2 me.
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q You don't remember. Okay. Is there a
6 document that you could look at to refresh your
7 recollection as to when you took time off to make phone
8 calls during the middle of the day?
9 A No.
10 Q Does someone keep a calendar for to you keep
11 track of your phone calls that you make for fundraising
12 during the middle of the day?
13 A No one keeps a calendar for that.
14 Q Okay. Is there a schedule of some type kept
15 for to you do that?

16 A No.
17 Q Okay. Are there any records of your
18 activities engaging in fundraising over the past three
19 months of your soliciting people?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay. How do you go about deciding how to do
22 it?
23 A I just take time as necessary.
24 Q Okay. And how do you determine when it's
25 necessary?
121
1 A It depends.
2 Q And what does it depend on, Madam
3 Secretary?
4 A Whether I have a campaign and whether I have
5 a campaign going on and when I decide to take time to

6 do so.
7 Q And I'm only asking you over the past three
8 months because I think you can concede you had a
9 campaign going on over the past three months,
10 correct?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q Over the past three months, how many days a
13 week do you take time out to make telephone calls to
14 people to solicit money?
15 A I'm not sure.
16 Q And when you say I'm not sure, is it that you
17 don't remember or you don't have any idea how much time
18 you take?
20 Q Okay. And what document would exist that you
21 could look at to tell you, did I make those calls that
22 day to refresh your recollection?
23 A I don't have a document that -- to keep track
24 of that time.
25 Q Okay. Does your campaign keep track of phone

122
1 calls you've made to people to solicit money?
2 A They keep track of commitments that I have.
3 MR. GERSTEN: Can I get my question
4 read back, please?
8 A Yes.
9 BY MR. GERSTEN:
10 Q Who keeps -- who at your campaign keeps that
11 record?
12 A My fundraising staff.
13 Q Okay. Is there someone in charge of your
14 fundraising staff?
15 A Omar Alam.
16 Q And is there a document that Omar keeps that
17 indicates that the secretary has come over to make this
18 phone call to Joe Smith to solicit money on a such and
19 such a day?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And does the document reflect that you made
22 the phone call?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And does the document reflect the day you
25 made the phone call?
123
1 A Yes.
2 Q And does the document reflect the number or
3 names of people that you called that day?
4 A Can you ask that again?
5 Q Sure. Does the document that Omar keeps
6 reflect the number of calls or names of people you
7 called to solicit money that day?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And does the document reflect whether you

10 made if phone call during the middle of the day or some
11 other time period?
12 A No.
13 Q If you looked at the document, would it
14 refresh your recollection whether or not you made the
15 phone calls during the middle of the day?
16 A No.
17 Q They would just reflect you made phone calls
18 that period of the day?
19 A Yes.
20 Q If we took your calendar?
21 MR. HORTON: What period of day? I'm
22 sorry.
23 MR. GERSTEN: I'll restate it.
24 BY MR. GERSTEN:
25 Q If we took that document and we compared it
124
1 to the calendars you've produced here, would we be able
2 to tell when the phone calls were made to these
3 people?
4 A No.
5 Q And why is that, Madam Secretary?
6 A We just don't date stamp everything or time
7 stamp everything.
8 Q Okay. We'll get back to it.
9 Now, moving to the next set of calendars.
10 We're all the way now up to 2004. Can I get this
11 marked?
12 MR. HORTON: While she's marking that I
13 would like to just have a second. I didn't get 2003,
14 by the way.
15
17 identification.) May 2004 calendar.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record,
19 3:32.
20
21 (Recess: 3:32 pm to 3:41 pm.)
22

24 number 4. On the record 3:41.
25 MR. HORTON: Eliot, in an effort to
125
1 move things along I've spoken to my client over the
2 break and she's going to stipulate as follows, that
3 the Exhibit 14, which is the 2003 official diary is
4 typical of all the years since 2003 and that, you
5 know, certainly won't show any more of what we're
6 trying to prove in our case and what you see in 2003
7 for any of the years since then. And that she -- in
8 none of these cases in the years since has she used --
9 mentioned that she was an attorney when she was acting
10 as a the secretary of the state. So I offer that so
11 to move things along that -- there aren't things that
12 we're going to be able to claim in any of the years
13 since 2003 says a had a, we've done more of what we're

14 claiming as legal work than we showed in 2003 in terms
15 of documentation. In terms of this diary for 2003
16 forward. That 2003 diary is typical for the years
17 since after and before for that matter.
18 MR. GERSTEN: I appreciate that I wish
19 you had told me off the record so we could put
20 together a stipulation that would work. And I really
21 don't want to take up transcript time in some extended
22 dialogue.
23 MR. HORTON: Can we go off the record
24 then for just a second.
25 MR. GERSTEN: Sure.
126
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 3:43.
3 (Recess: 3:43 pm to 4:12 pm.)
4
6 number 4. On the record, 4:12.
7 MR. GERSTEN: And for the record, Wes,
8 while we tried mightedly, it's pretty clear we couldn't
9 reach a stipulation that worked correct
10 MR. HORTON: We did not reach a
11 stipulation.
12 MR. GERSTEN: We can continue to try.
13 BY MR. GERSTEN:
14 Q Madam Secretary I'm going to ask you to take
15 a look now at the 2004 calendar?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I'm going to ask you to identify the
18 entries for this time period which is again randomly
19 selected as May through -- May through the first week
20 of June 2004. And could you identify those activities
21 that are reflected here that you claim support your
22 position that you are engaged in the practice of law?
23 A Yes. One is on the 4th of May, the policy
24 meeting that we had at the Capitol with my executive
25 staff and also my conversation with Maria about

127
1 legislative issues. I'm wondering about the 1:30 to
2 12:00:30 taping of the news maker show because I can't
3 see what the topic was but if it was about the Help
4 America Vote Act or election reform, because this was a
5 time period when our office was working on direct
6 primary legislation that could be it. So that's 4th.
7 And then I would always go to phone
8 conversations with Larry para seen no, my press
9 secretary and Lou Button who is an attorney in our
10 legislative lease is a son. And/or elections attorney
11 regarding legislation probably direct primary and Help
12 America Vote, since that seems to be the topic that was
13 being considered by the legislature in our office. And
14 also there is another meeting with my deputy where we
15 would go through a wide variety of --
16 Q And what date is that, ma'am?
17 A Sorry. That would be May 6th.

18 Q That would be the hour long meeting with
19 Maria?
20 A Right. And then another same meeting with
21 Maria between 1:00 and 2:00 about the Help America Vote
22 Act and our office's compliance with that and
23 legislative issues on the 7th.
24 Q And ma'am, can I just refer you back to the
25 6th? It has a Windsor down committee meeting. That
128
1 would be the democrats, correct?
2 A Yes. And actually, there is a republican
3 counsel committee meeting -- excuse me dinner on the
4 7th that I would just point out to you that I went to
5 the next day.
6 Q Okay. But you're not counting that one as
8 A No. That was an awards ceremony.

9 Q Okay. So we found one dealing with my
10 client. Moving onto the next week, ma'am?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Could you identify the activities during this
13 week that you claim support your position that you are
14 engaged in the active practice of law?
15 A The policy meeting from 10:00 to 11:00 on
16 Wednesday, the 12th. And also my meeting with Maria on
17 the 13th of May.
18 Q Okay. And ma'am, I see you have noted here
19 the Jewish holiday Lag Bermer. Did you celebrate all
20 the Jewish holidays?
21 A No, I don't but we wanted to be sensitive
22 because we had a comment from a legislator that our
23 office scheduled an event on the Jewish holidays so we
24 tried to be sensitive about that and put that on the
25 calendar. There are other holidays on the calendar as
129
1 well.
2 Q There are, it's just that's one I don't think
3 I ever heard of before?
4 A Me neither.
5 Q Have you learned what it celebrates?
6 A No. Sorry.
7 Q Okay. Moving onto the next week would you be
8 kind enough to identify those activities that you claim
9 support your position that you are engaged in the
11 A That would be on the 17th of May, my
12 conversation with Maria about primary issues. There
13 are, as you head toward primary season, we often have
14 issues in large cities with respect to primary
15 questions. And so I have a meeting with Maria about
16 that where we are called upon to advise the candidates
17 and party members about legal issues with respect to
18 primaries.
19 Q Do you recall what the primary issue was in
20 connection with Bridgeport that you were referring
21 to?
22 A They have a lot of primary issues and every
23 primary season you can count on -- you can count on
24 getting calls from many large cities on primary topics.
25 I can't recall specifically what that was.
130
1 Q Okay.
2 A Again, a -- I would note meeting with Maria
3 on Tuesday, the 18th from 2:00 to 3:00, and from 3:30
4 to 4:30 and it looks like not only was I meeting with
5 my deputy regarding HAVA, but there were certifications
6 that we had to sign, probably with respect to receipt
7 of federal funds.
8 On the 19th of May I had a meeting with my
9 deputy from 1:00 to 2:00 and also a policy meeting with
10 my executive staff from 10:00 to 11:00.
11 Q And what date was that, ma'am?
12 A That would be the 19th of May.

13 Q Okay.
14 A And Friday, there is a news makers taping I'm
15 not sure what the topic was, but it could have been
16 about legislation. So -- but I'm not certain.
17 Q So you would consider if it's about
18 legislation, that supports your position that you're
19 engaged in the practice of law?
20 A Yes to the extent that it involves
21 legislative advocacy.
22 Q And turning onto the next week, ma'am. Could
23 you tell us the instances that are reflected in your
24 scheduling that demonstrate you were engaged in the
25 practice of law?
131
1 A Yes. On the 24th of May I spoke at the
2 reading league of women voters annual meeting with

3 provisions in the Help America Vote Act and what our
4 state was doing to comply with it and particularly with
5 respect to new voting machines and also there is a
6 conference call, it's not in chronological order on
7 that same day on the 24th, and you see representative
8 Kirkley bay called regarding the registrar of voters
9 primary in Hartford and I think this one was between
10 Ms. Surge on and Ms. Alvis and that was -- there was a
11 lot of issues with respect to that primary and who
12 could serve as checkers and whether someone who is a
13 registrar and is a candidate in that registrar of
14 voters primary had conflict of interest issues.
15 Q And you provided that advice as a function of
16 your office of secretary of state, correct?
17 A Correct. And then on the 25th, more
18 conversations with our deputy and representative
19 Kirkley bay about that primary and Hartford and
20 speaking at a league of women voters meeting in North
21 Haven on Help America Vote issues and our state's
22 efforts to comply with that. Also on the 26th, a
23 policy meeting with my executive staff.
24 Q Okay.
25 A And a meeting with my deputy between 9:00 and

132
1 9:30 on the 27th of May.
2 Q And looking at the next page, ma'am, could
3 you identify the activities that are reflected on your
4 calendar that support your position that you were
6 A Okay. Meeting with representative Barry on
7 the 1st and on the 1st I -- looks I did some
8 constituent correspondence. I did not put down the
9 subject, but that could have been involving me going
10 through legislation or the legal rights and
11 responsibilities of a constituent.
12 The policy meeting on the 2nd of June between
13 11:00 and 12:00. And 1:30 to 2:00 there was a question
14 by Paul Hugh's regarding LLC's. There were a number of
15 pieces of legislation at various points that have been
16 proposed regarding LLC's, and probably had to do with

17 one of those legislative initiatives.
18 And another Maria meeting on Friday the 4th
19 between 10:00 and 11:00.
20 Q Okay. So we've got about five hours spent on
21 doing work according to your calendar that week that
22 you claim was done in connection with your practice of
23 law, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, ma'am, are you aware of any statute
133
1 authorizing you to provide legal advice to a
2 constituent?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What statute is that?
5 A That would -- 9 dash 3 and 4 provide for
6 legal opinions to election officials who are

7 constituents. And to provide advice to election
8 officials and others about compliance with election
9 law.
10 Q And is it your testimony that when these
11 opinions are issued by your office, this is an activity
12 that you engage in that is in the practice of law?
13 A Could I have that question again.
14 MR. GERSTEN: Would you reread it to
15 her, please?
16
18
19 A Yes.
20 BY MR. GERSTEN:
21 Q So every opinion that comes out of your
22 office is something that you claim demonstrates that
23 you as an individual are engaged in the practice of
24 law?
25 A Which opinions are we speaking about?

134
1 Q Any legal opinion issued by your office?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So every legal opinion that's issued by your
4 office is done pursuant to a view you have that that
5 demonstrates that I, Susan Bysiewicz, as an individual,
6 am engaged in the practice of law?
7 A Yes, because I supervise the attorneys in my
8 office who provide them and they speak to me about
9 them.
10 Q Well, I've noticed in all these calendars
11 that we've gone through almost five -- five years
12 worth, there don't appear to be many references to your
13 meetings with staff attorneys in your office. Are
14 there?
15 A No, because most of these meetings are
16 meetings outside of our office. However, it is the
17 case, as I believe I mentioned, that when I testify at
18 a legislative hearing, often my attorneys Mike Kozik,
19 Ted Bromley, Lou Button, would meet me beforehand, come
20 with me, often our attorneys are present at policy

21 meetings.
22 Q Would you agree with me, ma'am, that for the
23 five years we've looked at so far, there's been no
24 reference to Mike Kozik anywhere?
25 A No.
135
1 Q Okay. And we did a computer run, ma'am, and
2 there is about 15,000 entries on your computer covering
3 your 11 year term as secretary of state. Would it
4 surprise you to know that Ted Bromley appears on six of
5 them?
6 A It's not surprising.
7 Q Okay. Now, are there any other documents one
8 could look at to determine when you have engaged in
9 supervision of your attorneys working for you that
10 supports your position that you are engaged in the

11 practice of law?
12 A The documents that the attorney general
13 provided to you. Are examples of those.
14 Q Okay. Those are examples?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q So is it your testimony that if your name
17 appears on the document as being the secretary of
18 state, that demonstrates that you supervise the
19 attorneys who wrote it?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And is it your testimony that each and
22 every one of those documents that were provided by the
23 attorney general's office are documents that you
24 participated in drafting?
25 MR. HORTON: Objection. Would you say
136
1 the end of that question again.

2 MR. GERSTEN: Participate in
3 drafting.
4 MR. HORTON: In drafting. Okay.
5 A Some of them, yes.
6 BY MR. GERSTEN:
7 Q Okay. Did you participate in drafting all of
8 them?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. But it's your testimony that because
11 you are the head of the agency and because the
12 attorneys work for you, that demonstrates that you are
13 engaged in the practice of law when these attorneys are
14 issuing legal opinions on behalf of the secretary of
15 state?
16 A Yes, because often I am involved in
17 discussions about the topic with them, with my
18 constituents, with election officials, with my deputy
19 and executive staff and others.
20 MR. GERSTEN: We'll go to 2006, please.
21 This time it's September for a change.
22
24 identification.) September 2006

25 calendar.
137
1 BY MR. GERSTEN:
2 Q If you could look at Exhibit 16, ma'am. And
3 where does it indicate on this document that you are
4 engaged in the practice of law on the first page,
5 number 385?
6 A I am not certain about the topic of the press
7 conference. I'm going to assume that it's --
8 Q What day is that, ma'am?
9 A Election related. That would be on the 11th.
10 Because there was preparation going on for that on the
11 11th from 12:00 to 1:30 and a meeting with respect to
12 it from 3:00 to 3:30 and there are meetings and
13 interviews regarding voting machine selection and this
14 may have been about the time that we selected a type of

15 voting machine that we thought would comply with the
16 Help America Vote Act I just can't be sure because, you
17 know, I don't have any more information. But it looks
18 like that from some of the other entries that appear
19 later on in the week on the 14th.
20 Q So I would be correct that your testimony is
21 that in connection with the secretary of state's
22 implementation of a mechanism to comply with the Help
23 America Vote Act, you personally are engaged in the
24 practice of law?
25 A Yes. Absolutely. Because it would be my job
138
1 to make sure that our state complies with federal civil
2 rights laws and also with our election law. And so I
3 would count the meeting from 12:00 to 1:30 with Leslie
4 and 3:00 to 3:30 with Dan also preparation the next
5 morning and the meeting with our voter advocates group,

6 these were people who were concerned about having a
7 voter verified paper trail and were concerned about the
8 use of electronic voting machines. I would include the
9 press conference from 12:00 to 1:00 and the various
10 advocacy around that and on the 14th, from 10:00 to
11 12:00 we were doing a demonstration of the voting
12 equipment at the Sharon town hall to election officials
13 and mayors and first selectmen in that northwest corner
14 area and there was media interviews on that day as well
15 both in the morning from 9:00 to 9:30 and from 7:00 to
16 7:45 with respect to that.
17 Q All right. And that's all considered by you
18 to be the practice of law?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Great. And what about this mad son
21 democratic committee cocktail party. Do you see that
22 noted here?
23 A Yes.
24 Q That wasn't the practice of law, right?
25 A No. But I would point out that on Saturday,

139
1 the 16th from 2:00 to 4:00 I was speaking to the
2 disability collaborative and I remember speaking at
3 that event about the voting machines that are -- that
4 we were choosing to be accessible to people with
5 disabilities.
6 Q And in the course of that, you did not
7 identify yourself as an attorney when you were speaking
8 at the disability collaborative forum, did you?
9 A No.
10 Q Now, this mad son democratic town committee
11 cocktail party, was that a function you engaged in as a
13 A I was invited because I was the secretary of
14 the state.
15 Q Okay. Moving onto September 17th. Would you
16 be kind enough to identify those entries on your
17 calendar that reflect your practice of law?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Ma'am I'm going to interrupt you for a minute
20 because you made one statement earlier. Your testimony
21 is when you demonstrate how the voting machines work
22 you are engaged in the practice of law?
23 A Yes, because I am explaining the state and
24 federal law requirements and how our -- how our state
25 was complying with those. And also, you know, doing
140
1 voter education as well.
2 Q Thank you. I'm sorry I interrupted you. You
3 were about to talk about the 17th?
4 A That was from 2:00 to 4:00 on September
5 18th.
6 Q Okay. And you didn't identify yourself as an
7 attorney when you gave that speech, did you?
8 A No.
9 MR. HORTON: We'll stipulate to that

10 for all cases.
11 MR. GERSTEN: Thank you.
12 A And from 12:00 to 12:30 on the 20th, I was
13 interviewed by Steve, and I believe it's Thrall, on
14 KRIS radio and we were starting to explain the
15 telephone system that is available for -- that we were
16 hoping to make available for people with disabilities.
17 And there was a voter advocate's meeting from 6:00 to
18 8:00 at the L O B. I'm wondering about the time
19 because it -- that -- and those voter advocates were
20 people who were concerned about making sure that we
21 adopted legislation in Connecticut to provide for
22 audits and a paper trail. And then on the 21st of
23 September, our office and I conducted a voter -- a
24 voting demonstration of the voting machines that we had
25 selected to comply with the Help America Vote Act. And
141
1 from 11:00 to 11:30 about visited with Meriden record
2 journal because we wanted to build support for
3 legislation that we were beginning to seek support for
4 an audit legislation and also for the voting machines
5 that we had chosen for our state. And then the town
6 clerk conference at -- between 12:00 to 3:30 on the
7 21st where I spoke to the state's town clerks about our
8 preparations for the November election. And compliance
9 with the Help America Vote Act.
10 Also on the 22nd, a voting machine
11 demonstration at Bristol city hall with election
12 officials there from 10:00 to 11:00.
13 Q All right. So I noted that and it looks like
14 you spent a total of seven hours that week engaged in
15 activities reflected in your calendar showing that
16 you're engaged in the practice of law?
17 A I apologize but I would just take you back to
18 an interview with Sam Gingerella from 1:00 to 2:00
19 about the voting machines. And again, that is under
20 the topic of education and advocacy for the Help
21 America Vote Act compliance and the other --
22 Q So when this secretary of state is being

23 interviewed about how the state is intending to
24 implement and comply with the federal law, you
25 personally are engaged in the active practice of law?
142
1 A Yes.
2 Q Moving on to page 387 of the Bates stamp
3 documents which starts with September 24th. Could you
4 tell us --
5 A Yes. On the 26th of September from 10:00 to
6 11:00 30, and -- we -- our office did a demonstration
7 and program with election officials in New London about
8 the voting machine technology and our compliance with
9 Help America Vote Act and then an interview thereafter
10 with channel 3 from 11:30 to 11:45. And also we did
11 another demonstration on the voting machine equipment
12 on the 27th between 10:00 and 12:00 in Norwich. And
13 from 1:30 to 3:00 we had a meeting with the league of

14 women voters talking about our office's compliance with
15 the Help America Vote Act and also with legislation
16 because we meet with the league on a regular basis and
17 advocate for changes to election law in collaboration
18 with the league of women voters.
19 Another voting machine demonstration in
20 Windham on the 28th of September from 10:00 to 11:00
21 with an interview there. And an editorial board
22 meeting about the new voting technology with the
23 romantic chronicle from 11:00:10 to 11:45. And I'm not
24 sure had a this --
25 Q Okay. That's fair enough. So if we subtract
143
1 the interviews with the media regarding the entries on
2 this calendar, on this particular calendar, the only
3 reflection that you engaged in the practice of law

4 would be your league of women voters meeting, do I
5 follow that correctly?
6 A I'm sorry are we subtracting the voting
7 machine meetings which were public meetings designed to
8 educate people about our --
9 Q No I'm sorry I'm including that, too. Okay.
10 Thank you for that correction. Got it. Good point.
11 So if I do my totaling up here of the time
12 you claim you spend engaged in the practice of law, we
13 probably have about six hours that week, right?
14 A From this calendar, and again, I would just
15 continue to say that there is other work that I do that
16 doesn't necessarily get reflected on this calendar.
17 But if we're focused on the calendar, yes. The answer
18 is yes.
19 Q Well, again, I don't want to argue with you
20 ma'am and that's a fair comment you're making. But
21 when I asked you at the prior session what documents we
22 would look to to determine what you do every day, you
23 said my calendar would be what I would look at.
24 A Months --
25 Q This is the calendar that we would be looking

144
1 at, correct?
2 A Yes. But again, my calendar affects --
3 namely reflects public events, not everything that I
4 might do during the course of a day.
5 Q Well when you call them public events we know
6 you also have personal days on here, personal meetings
7 because we've seen them, right?
8 A Yep.
9 Q And when you call them public events, we have
10 a lot of meeting with Tammy, that's within your office,
11 right?
12 A That's an internal meeting but not all my
13 internal meetings are reflected.
14 Q Okay. Have you seen any internal meetings in
15 any of the samples we've selected here of meetings with
16 staff attorneys?
17 A There was one that I just saw with Lou on

18 Exhibit 16 that I didn't point out.
19 Q You did point that one out. That was one?
20 A Okay. So not right here with the exception
21 of meetings that I might have noted with my deputy, who
22 is an attorney.
23 Q So is it your testimony that these calendars
24 do not accurately reflect how you spend your time as
145
1 A Doesn't reflect every minute of my day, no.
2 And I might have missed on the 12th of September a
3 meeting with Leslie, Dan and Lucian Pavlak, who was the
4 person engaged in working with our -- and is engaged in
5 working with our town clerks and registrar with respect
6 to compliance on the Help America Vote Act and I don't
7 believe I mentioned that and I just noticed it.

8 Q That's fair enough. That isn't considered to
9 be the administration of elections, is it?
10 A What is it?
11 Q Is implementation of compliance with the Help
12 America Vote Act the equivalent of administration of
13 elections?
14 A I would say not.
15 Q What's the difference?
16 A There are -- well, there are preparations
17 that go on by our office for elections, and also by
18 election officials for election, but when we're doing
19 that we are complying with state election law and
20 federal election law and it is my job to make sure that
21 our election officials do comply with those.
22 Q And so what's the difference between what you
23 are describing as what I'll call the practice of law
24 for the purposes of our discussions and the
25 administration of election laws?
146
1 A Well, running -- I would say compliance with
2 election law and administration of elections are one
3 and the same in that we are helping our clients or our
4 election officials to carry out election law in a way
5 that complies with state and federal law.
6 Q And is it your testimony now that you
7 consider the administration of the election laws to be
9 A Well, let me just clarify that there are
10 aspects of election administration, for instance, that
11 don't involve the active practice of law. A for
12 instance, making sure that there are enough poll
13 workers for our elections and that's an issue that we
14 have faced that's hard to get pole workers and we
15 actually had a program in anticipation of the 2009
16 election to train young people to be pole workers. And
17 that is an example of something I would put in the
18 category of election administration, making sure that
19 town clerks and registrar who are in compliance with
20 the Help America Vote Act by making sure that there are
21 telephones set up for people with disabilities to vote

22 in every polling place and that the privacy laws that
23 are in -- reflected in our state constitution are
24 followed by making sure people have privacy folders
25 when the ballots are distributed, I would say that that
147
1 is -- that that encompasses the practice of law.
2 Q Oh, it does?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Making sure forms are submitted and complying
5 with that portion of the statute is considered the
6 practice of law?
7 A Making sure that voters vote is private and
8 making sure that our constitution is complied with and
9 educating election officials about that would be the
10 practice of law.
11 Q And it's the practice of law because you're

12 an attorney and not necessarily because you're the
13 secretary of state; am I correct?
14 A I am charged with giving advice to election
15 officials and making -- and giving legal advice in 9
16 dash 3 and 9 dash 4.
17 Q And I appreciate that, ma'am, but at the
18 beginning of our deposition you indicated that those
19 secretary of states before you who followed that same
20 statute were not practicing law simply because they
21 were following that statute; is that correct?
22 A Correct. However, I would argue that if they
23 were lawyers and engaging in those activities, they
24 would be.
25 Q And that is in fact your argument in this
148
1 case, isn't it?
2 MR. HORTON: Eliot, we've been over

3 that. Please.
4 BY MR. GERSTEN:
5 Q Ma'am?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, we've covered a sample of 2006. Moving
8 along to 2000 -- looks like I skipped 2008. I
9 apologize for that.
10 BY MR. GERSTEN:
11 Q Showing you what we're going to have the
12 court reporter mark as Exhibit 17, starting with 487
13 through 494 covering the time period August 2008,
14 ma'am?
15
17 identification.) calendar 2008.
18 BY MR. GERSTEN:
19 Q Looking at the first page, what would you
20 identify as your activities you engaged in reflected on
21 this calendar that constitute the practice of law?
22 A I believe this week was spent at the
23 democratic national convention, so I would not argue
24 that that was any of those activities show that.
25 Q Okay. So as of this week we had no time

149
1 spent on the practice of law?
2 A Not reflected at this -- on this calendar.
3 Q Right for this week's calendar for the
4 secretary of state there is no activities reflecting
5 your engaging in the practice of law?
6 A Actually, one of these interviews with Chaz
7 and AJ, Chaz was considering running for the general
8 assembly and wanted to know -- oh, and he wanted to run
9 not as part of a major party and he wanted to know what
10 he would have to do in order to run and I believe it
11 was for the state Senate as someone who's not running
12 on either of the republican or democratic party ballot
13 label and I was explaining to him what he would have to
14 do in terms of collecting a petition of signatures or
15 perhaps trying to get another party that had ballot

16 access to nominate him. So -- and I would say had a
17 that would be giving a constituent advice about how to
18 run for a particular office and that would be engaging
19 in the practice of law.
20 Q Did you tell him you're a lawyer?
21 A I did not.
22 Q What's Chaz's name?
23 A You know I honestly couldn't tell you what
24 his last name is, but he's the host of the -- of a
25 morning show based in Milford.
150
1 Q And who's AJ?
2 A That's the other -- that's his co host.
3 Q Okay. So this is --
4 A The name of their show.
5 Q This is a radio show that you had and you
6 told them how the secretary of state would post

7 something about petitions and stuff like that?
8 A I told him what he would have to do if he
9 would like to be a candidate for the general
10 assembly.
11 Q Moving onto the next week, Labor Day weekend,
12 I guess. Do you see any entries that reflect your --
13 A Yes. From 9:00 to 12:00 where I say
14 returning constituent calls and constituent
15 correspondence, to the extent that those calls were to
16 election officials who are my constituents or people
17 who wanted to get advice about elections, which is
18 often the case during the fall, that was the practice
19 of law.
20 Q Ma'am, can you tell me what documents would
21 reflect who you called that day or what constituents
22 you talked to that day?
23 A I'm not sure if I wrote a letter on that
24 particular day. That would be something that I could
25 point to.

151
1 Q How many letters do you send out a day that
2 you wrote?
3 A I think it depends on the day.
4 Q Last week how many letters Madam Secretary
5 did you issue with your signature that you drafted?
6 A I'm not sure.
7 Q More than ten?
8 A I'm not sure.
9 Q More than 100?
10 A It depends on the day. And we do send out
11 regular communications to our election officials, so it
12 would just depend.
13 Q I'm afraid I wasn't clear. I'm not asking
14 you what your office issued, I'm asking you, Madam
15 Secretary, how many letters did you issue last week
16 that you drafted personally yourself?
17 A I'm not sure.
18 Q Is it that you don't remember or you just
19 don't know?
20 A I don't remember. I can tell you this: We
21 do constituent service reports in our office and so I
22 could tell you in 2010 we had -- excuse me, in 2007 we
23 had approximately a 400 constituent letters that I
24 worked on with my director of constituent services, and
25 in 2008 we had I believe 5 60 or so. And then in 2009,
152
1 approximately 400. And I either write those letters
2 personally or work on them with my constituent service
3 director and I don't write every letter, sometimes I
4 make changes, sometimes I collaborate and sometimes I
5 speak with the constituent and suggest further research
6 or work and our constituent service director will
7 follow up and then I will sign correspondence that we
8 sent to our constituent.
9 Q That raises a very good question. You're not
10 claiming that every piece of correspondence you send

11 out to your constituents is an example of you
12 practicing law, is it?
13 A It depends on what the -- it depends on what
14 it is.
15 Q Maybe I didn't state my question carefully.
16 Are you claiming, Madam Secretary, that every piece of
17 correspondence that you send out to constituent
18 services constitutes an example of you personally
19 practicing law?
20 A No.
21 Q And there are many times when you send out
22 correspondence to constituents in which you say you
23 can't do anything to help them, they should go get
24 their own attorney; isn't that correct?
25 A What's the question again, please?
153
1 Q Is it correct, ma'am, that many times you
2 have correspondence with constituents in which you say
3 you cannot give them the legal advice they seek and
4 they should get private counsel?
5 A I have said that on occasion, yes.
6 Q This is getting crazy. Sorry what was the
7 last question?
10
11 BY MR. GERSTEN:
12 Q Do you say that -- now, you've indicated that
13 you've probably written about a thousand letters to
14 constituents since 2007, 2008, 2009, you were pretty
15 clear how many had gone out?
16 A I was just -- yes.
17 Q Is there a record that you could refer us to
18 that would indicate where your numbers came from?
19 A Yes. For those particular years, yes,
20 because we asked our director of constituent services
21 to keep track and that's how I have those numbers.
22 Q And what's that record called?
23 A He does -- it's a report that he prepares on

24 an annual basis. It's like an annual report where he
25 writes about our constituent correspondence and types
154
1 of issues and who we've helped and --
2 Q And so if I were to indicate to the Office of
3 the Secretary of State that I'd like to get a copy of
4 that record, what is it I have to indicate that I'm
5 looking for in order to get that so that no one
6 questions the document we're looking for?
7 A That would be the annual reports prepared by
8 our direct tower of constituent services Val Ramos.
9 MR. GERSTEN: Mr. Attorney general.
10 Okay. STENOMARK.
11 BY MR. GERSTEN:
12 Q And you're not indicating here, ma'am, that
13 everyone of those correspondence ease constitute
14 evidence of you engaging in the practice of law,

15 correct?
16 A Not everyone.
17 Q Okay. And out of that survey of 1,000, how
18 many of those pieces of correspondence do you actually
19 review and sign yourself personally?
20 A Almost all of them.
21 Q And, in fact, you gave us three examples in
22 your answers to interrogatories that you wanted us to
23 rely onto say that this is proof of my practicing law;
24 isn't that correct?
25 A Yes.
155
1 Q And would you include your correspondence
2 with that pine or charred country club as something you
3 engaged the practice of law in?
4 A I'd have to see that.

5 Q Okay. We'll come back to it.
6 A Okay.
7 Q In going to the 2008 calendar just for a
8 moment, ma'am, looking at September -- the week of
9 September 7th. Would you be kind enough just to
10 indicate which activities are evidenced in this
11 document reflecting your practice of law?
12 A Yes. On the 8th, preparation for
13 congressional testimony. On 11:30 to 12:30.
14 Q Yes. Okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Would
15 that be congressional testimony in the United States
16 Congress?
17 A It was I believe for the United States Senate
18 because senator Feinstein was holding hearings with
19 respect to President Bush's policy to ban voter
20 registration at veterans hospitals, and that was
21 regarding --
22 Q You didn't identify yourself as an attorney
23 when you gave that testimony, did you?
24 MR. HORTON: You've already been --
25 I've stipulated to that.

156
1 A No.
2 BY MR. GERSTEN:
3 Q If I understand the stipulation attorney
4 Horton is making, am I correct, ma'am, that none of the
5 examples you provided to us from your calendar that
6 we've talked about today, in not one of these have you
7 identified yourself as an attorney when you say, this
8 is proof that I engaged in the practice of law, am I
9 correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Any other examples you'd like to point out to
12 us that you want to say support your claim that you are
14 A Yes. I would say that as we were preparing
15 for this press conference on this issue of the
16 president's ban on voter registration at veteran's
17 hospitals, we -- that that was the practice of law
18 along with that press conference and a discussions with

19 the reporters on that day afterward about it.
20 Q Okay. Now, during the following week, -- I
21 can represent to you ma'am that I got -- my secretary
22 gave me a note that judge she would done didn't want to
23 interfere with the deposition but he did want us to be
24 made aware that some TV station wants to broadcast some
25 hearing tomorrow with your case. And I was passing it
157
1 along to --
2 MR. HORTON: It's the --
3 MR. GERSTEN: Identifies just passing
4 that along to your lawyer.
5 MR. HORTON: It's not important.
6 BY MR. GERSTEN:
7 Q Ma'am, take a look at the week of September
8 14th. I see you had a meeting on the 19th with George

9 Collie at the Enfield senior center do you see that?
10 A I do.
11 Q Okay. Was that a fundraising event, ma'am?
12 A I don't -- I don't -- I'm not sure.
13 Q Well, what would you and Mr. Collie be
14 meeting about if it weren't for fundraising?
15 A I'm not sure -- I don't know what that was.
16 Q All right. Is George Collie someone you've
17 solicited money from?
18 A Yes. But I don't remember on that particular
19 day what --
20 Q Not a problem. Would you agree, ma'am,
21 George Collie has in fact contributed to your campaigns
22 in the past, correct?
23 A He has.
24 MR. HORTON: Did you finish your answer
25 from the previous question?
158
1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what was --
2 MR. HORTON: I thought you were
3 interrupted.
4 A Pardon me. I would also like to add that I
5 remember talking to -- and I can't remember if this was
6 a meeting about this, but George Collie wanted to
7 discuss with me memorabilia that he had at a storage
8 facility of Ella Grasso's -- he had boxes of Ella
9 Grasso's memorabilia. I'm not exactly sure what it
10 was. And I remember talking to him about that stuff
11 that he had of hers. And I remember making some calls.
12 He was hoping to give it to the state library or
13 perhaps the -- her -- the college that she went to,
14 mount hole yolk. We were talking about what he could
15 do. And I can't remember if that meeting was about
16 that stuff that he had. But I remember having
17 conversations with him about that and I can't remember
18 if it was that particular time or another time.
19 Q Okay. And who's Matt Conway?
20 A Matt Conway was someone that is a state
21 representative.
22 Q And both of these fellows are democrats,

23 correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Now, on this week, you're not claiming those
159
1 are activities engaged in the practice of law, are
2 you?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay. And during this week, can you identify
5 those examples that you claim support your position
6 that you personally are engaged in the practice of law
7 while serving as secretary of state?
8 A On the 18th of September I spoke at the
9 annual town clerk's fall conference where we would
10 speak about legislative changes affecting elections and
11 also talking about preparations for the presidential
12 election, which would be the first presidential

13 election that we have held with the HAVA compliant
14 voting machines. And also meeting with Leslie on --
15 between 12:00 and 1:00 on Wednesday, the 17th. Are the
16 things that I --
17 Q Okay.
18 A See. And also on the evening of the 17th
19 preparing for remarks and for my talk to the town
20 clerks the evening of the 17th.
21 Q And on the 16th, the lunch with Bob Martino,
22 is that the same Bob Martino that is here?
23 A It is.
24 Q Do you recall what you and Mr. Martino spoke
25 of then?
160
1 A I'm not sure.
2 Q I've got one more set 6 calendars we can do
3 for you and then we can try to figure out what we're
4 going to do. This one I'm going to introduce the two
5 together as being --
6 MR. GERSTEN: What number are we up to?
7 Court reporter court reporter 18.
8 MR. GERSTEN: 18 and 19. Make her out
9 look one 18, make the other one 19.
10
12 identification.) calendar January
13 2010.
15 identification.) calendar 2010.
16 BY MR. GERSTEN:
17 Q Mad am secretary could you take a look at
18 what we've marked now as Exhibit 18 and 19?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Do you recognize 18 and 19?
21 A Yes.
22
23 (Mr. Reynolds left the deposition.)
24
25 Q Okay. Exhibit 18 covers your appointments as

161
1 secretary of state, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And number 19, ma'am?
4 A Is my town committee and campaign schedule.
5 Q I'll represent to you, ma'am that number 19
6 was the one that we had to go to court to get a copy
7 of?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And many of the entries on 19 are the same
10 entries on 18; isn't that correct?
11 A They may be. I haven't had a chance to look
12 through the whole thing.
13 Q Take a moment?
14 A These pages are out of order. Just give me a
15 minute.
16 Q Absolutely. I'll take full responsibility

17 for them being out of order because I tried to make the
18 copies myself so I probably messed it up.
19 A I think this could be a duplicate.
20 Q Sorry about that?
21 A I don't know. Let's see. 81, 82, 83. This
22 is 89.
23 Q You're familiar with it now, ma'am?
24 A Okay. But -- okay. I'm just not seeing
25 January 1st here because I have my -- if we start at
162
1 January 10th, that's fine.
2 Q We can start at January 10th.
3 A I'm confused because these calendars are --
4 it's hard to look at them like this but can we -- why
5 don't you ask me about particular days and then I'll
6 try to find the day.
7 Q I'll try it a different way. Looking at

8 Exhibit 19 for a moment. Can you tell me who prepares
9 that?
10 A That would be -- that would be Zack at my
11 campaign.
12 Q Okay. And when Zack prepares it, there's
13 entries in here, for example, creator David at Susan
14 2010. Do you see that?
15 A Oh, that could have been David Mason, when he
16 was at our campaign in December, that was for a forum
17 that we probably got an invitation to, you know, I
18 don't know, a month or two months prior to the event.
19 Q Okay. But what I'm trying to figure out is
20 it says David for S O T S calendar.
21 A Right. The secretary of the state campaign
22 calendar. See it says S O T S at the top.
23 Q Right. So what does that mean?
24 A I'm the secretary of the state. This is my
25 campaign calendar. I don't think there's any

163
1 significance beyond that.
2 Q Okay. So what this basically reflects then,
3 this is the calendar as it relates to you,
4 personally?
5 A The campaign, yes. My campaign.
6 Q Okay?
7 A Engagements.
8 Q Now, in looking at what you did as recently
9 as it looks like the most recent calendar we have is
10 dated March 7th through the 13th.
11 A Okay. Let me just find that.
12 Q Page 5 67?
13 A I'm sorry March what.
14 Q March 7th through the 13th. That's the last
15 one we received.
16 A Okay.
17 Q Can you indicate on this page what entries
18 reflect you engaging in the practice of law?
19 A On the 8th, testifying at the government
20 administration and elections committee. And that would

21 be that event.
22 Q All right. So for that week we have about 30
23 minutes of time supporting your claim that you engaged
24 in the practice of law?
25 A Yes.
164
1 Q And you're not going to indicate to us that
2 anything that is contained in your campaign calendar
3 would reflect activities that you claim aren't
4 supportive of your practice of law?
5 A No.
6 Q And on the day you testified at the GAEC,
7 were you accompanied by counsel?
8 A Usually I am. Usually I have Ted Bromley and
9 Lou Button and sometimes Leslie Mara.
10 Q And on that day, weren't you asked questions
11 that you said I don't know the answer, you've got to

12 ask -- or words to the effect of you should ask our
13 legal counsel?
14 A We may have had a question directed at Ted
15 Bromley.
16 Q Right. And Ted Bromley would be the one it's
17 directed to because he's the one giving the legal
18 opinion from the secretary of state's office,
19 correct?
20 A No.
21 Q From his position?
22 A He may have just known the answer to that
23 question.
24 Q Okay.
25 MR. GERSTEN: Well, Wes it's a little
165
1 bit after 5:00. It's probably a good time to try to

2 end this endurance contest.
3 MR. HORTON: Okay. But Eliot, I'm and
4 my client are prepared to go forward tomorrow morning.
5 If this.
6 MR. GERSTEN: What time you want to
7 start, Wes.
8 MR. HORTON: As early as possible
9 because I'm going to claim a protective order by 2:00
10 tomorrow afternoon this F this isn't done. There is
11 no sense in making speeches. We will come back
12 tomorrow morning to get this over with. And I will
13 have your document on the brief to the Second Circuit
14 with me tomorrow morning assuming we can put our hands
15 on it. So let's get this over with. 9:00 tomorrow
16 morning.
17 MR. GERSTEN: Just a few other
18 questions just so I know.
19 BY MR. GERSTEN:
20 Q Ma'am, appreciate your accommodations to us
21 here and I hope you appreciate we've been accommodating
22 your perception that you got to have this heard
23 quickly. Are there any -- is there anyone that you
24 intend to bring to court to testify that they could

25 support your claim that you engage in the active
166
1 practice of law?
2 A Could you ask that question again.
3 MR. GERSTEN: Go ahead, madam court
4 reporter?
8 A You are asking who I intend to bring or would
9 I intend to bring someone to do that? And I would have
10 to discuss that with my counsel.
11 Q Okay. And you made reference before that
12 Leslie Mara has notes of discussions regarding the
13 practice of law issues we've been discussing here. Do
14 you recall that?
15 A I said that she sometimes makes notes of

16 conversations that we have with election officials who
17 are asking for advice.
18 Q Okay. Just so you're aware of this, ma'am, I
19 don't care if you go back and ask her or not but we've
20 asked for those kind of notes to be produced in this
21 case and we've been told they don't exist. So if you
22 have them or you have access to them through your
23 subordinate who works for you would be a good idea to
24 have those with you tomorrow?
25 MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: We have made the
167
1 request and we are verifying the response to the
2 request so we'll have an answer, you know, hopefully
3 by tomorrow morning. I can't promise we'll have it by
4 9:00 tomorrow morning.
5 MR. GERSTEN: Okay. Great why don't we

6 try to reconvene about 9:30 to get it done.
7 MR. HORTON: 9:30.
8 MR. GERSTEN: 9:30 won't work.
9 MR. HORTON: How about 9:00.
10 MR. GERSTEN: How about 9:30.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record,
12 5:22.
13
14 (The deposition adjourned at 5:22 pm.)
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1

6 ROUGH DRAFT PURPOSES ONLY. NOT TO BE USED AS

7 OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT AS IT MAY CONTAIN UNTRANSLATES

8 AND MISTRANSLATES WHICH WILL BE CORRECTED IN THE

22 Bethany A. Carrier, LSR.

23 Brandon Smith Reporting Service

Brandon Smith Reporting

1 (The deposition commenced at 12:05 pm.)

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The date today is

4 April 5th, 2010. We're going on the record at 12:06

5 p.m. The case is Bysiewicz versus DiNardo, the

6 Connecticut Democratic Party, the Connecticut Office

7 of the Secretary of State, filed in the Superior Court

8 of Hartford. The name of the witness today is Susan

9 Bysiewicz, and this is volume 2. This deposition is

11 Street, Hartford, Connecticut. My name is Jacob

12 Brandon from Brandon Smith Reporting & Video. The

13 court reporter is Bethany Carrier from Brandon Smith

14 Reporting & Video.

15 Counsel will now state their appearances

16 for the record, please after which the court reporter

17 will swear in the witness.

18 MR. HORTON: Wesley W. Horton for the

20 MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: Perry Zinn Rowthorn

21 from the office of the attorney general on behalf of

22 the secretary of state's office.

23 MR. REYNOLDS: Kevin Reynolds from

24 Connecticut Democratic Party.

25 MR. GERSTEN: My name is Eliot Gersten.

Brandon Smith Reporting

2 also we have two people, Allison Dodge from the

3 democratic party. She's representing the democratic

4 party. And his eminence Robert Martino, and you're

5 here on behalf of whom?

6 MR. MARTINO: I'm here on behalf of the

8 MR. GERSTEN: And the campaign would be

10 MR. MARTINO: Friends of Susan 2010.

11 MR. GERSTEN: Thanks.

12 MR. HORTON: And I would ask that we

13 proceed without a lunch break so that this deposition

14 can be over with by 5:00. And secondly, my client

15 would like to correct two items of her testimony from

17 MR. GERSTEN: Can we first swear in the

24 review the deposition that you had take place?

25 A I had a chance to reflect further on items

Brandon Smith Reporting

1 that were discussed in the deposition and I would like

2 to correct two things.

3 Q Okay. My question was whether you had a

4 chance to actually review the -- a copy of the

5 transcript of the deposition?

7 Q And you indicated that notwithstanding that

8 lack of review, you'd like to make some corrections to

11 Q What is the first item, just topic wise, if

12 you could be kind enough to tell us what you're

15 blog post and my response to that.

16 Q Okay. And what was the second topic that you

17 wanted to have a chance to correct?

18 A An item with respect to David Killain.

19 Q We'll come back to both of those.

20 MR. HORTON: Wouldn't it be appropriate

21 for her to correct the record now.

22 MR. GERSTEN: I really don't have any