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TheMagicCafeForums"Preshowwork"and"Ethics"

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TheMagicCafeForumIndexPennyforyourthoughts
"Preshowwork"and"Ethics"(1Likes)
Gotopage 1 ~2[Next]

RLFrame

Posted:Jun30,200411:31am
0

ThoughtImightstartadialogonasubjectIhavebeenthinking
aboutlately.

Veteranuser
349Posts

WhenIwasa"financiallychallenged"collegestudentmanymoons
ago,Ididapsychicroutineformyfraternity'sparties.Themost
talkedabouteffectwaswhereeveryoneintheroomsubmittedhis
nameandsomeotherinformationonsmallslipsofpaperwhich
weregathered.Onewaschosen,andthenameread.Though
blindfoldedandfarawayfromtheslips,Ithenrevealedtheother
writteninformationandotherdetailsnotwrittenincludinghowmuch
changewasintheirpocket,etc.Peoplewereimpressed,butthe
routinewasbasicallyawayto'force'a"stooge."That'sright.Iwas
youngandstupid.
Though'timehonored'andundeniablyeffective,Ihavesincesworn
offusingstooges.AndwhileIdonotwishtooffendanybodywho
usesanytechnique,Inowamhavingthesamesortofthoughtsof
'unfairness'concerningsome(butnotall)ofwhatistermed'pre
show'workasIamcomingtobelievethatsomeofitessentially
createsa'stooge.'
Thatperhapsgoesabitfar,butIhopesomeofyou'get'whatIam
hintingat.Therearesituationswhereinformationisgatheredina
waythatthe'later'audiencewouldnotbesoimpressedbyhadthey
seentheprocedure,andwherethe'miracle'happensprimarily
becausetheaudienceisundertheimpressionthattherehasbeen
nopreviouscontact.
Mr.Strivingshasbeenquotedassayingthatpreshowworkcan
makeyoulooklikeagod,orsomethingtothateffect.Iagree,and

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thatisprettymuchmyproblem.
PerhapsIcompletelyoffbasedinthisviewandinneedof
correcting.Perhapsothersofyouarehavingthesamesortof
misgivingsasIam.Isthisaddressedinanyoftheliterature?
Apologiesifthishasbeencoveredpreviously!
dpe666

Innercircle
2847Posts

Posted:Jun30,200411:40am
0

Annemannwouldemploy99audiencemembersoutof100justto
fooltheone.Usingastoogeisthesameasusinganyothermethod.
Doublelift,shuttlepass,ElmsleyCount,Stooge.Theyareallthe
samewhenitcomestomethodofeffect.Thereisnosuchthingas
"ethics"whenitcomestomethodology.Wedowhateverwehaveto
doinordertoachieveadesiredeffect,andifthatmeansusinga
stooge,sobeit.
Findmyebooksandvideosat:

http://www.lybrary.com/daviddevlinm98836.html

DavidNumen

Posted:Jun30,200411:54am
0

It'sverymuchapersonalchoice,justastheuseofsleightsare.
Therearenorightsandwrongs.Ifyouarecomfortabledoinga
doubleliftandapalmthenyouwilldoeffectsinvolvingthem.Same
withstooges.
Innercircle
1531Posts

Regards,
David.
Newbook"PhoneHome:ConfessionsofaTelephoneReader"availablefrom
Lybrary.com.NealScryer,RichardWebster,MillardLongmanandJeromeFinleyloveit
maybeyouwilltoo!

Platt

Posted:Jun30,200411:57am
0

I'mfascinatedwithmagic,andIknowmanyothersaretoo,because
Ifinditanintellectualchallenge.Theelementsareallthereinfront
ofme.Ijusthavetomakesenseofthem.
Innercircle
NewYork
1755Posts

Theseelementscouldincludeeverythingfromhiddentrapdoors,
stooges,etc.Allisfair,aslongasthepuzzleisproperlyandfairly
setup.AslongasIhavethepotentialtodeducethesolution.Ifthe
audienceistoldflatoutthattherehasbeennoprearranged
informationandtherereallyhasbeen,that'sunfair.IfI'mwatching
magiconTVandtheysayeverythingisshowninitsentiretyandit's
not,that'sunfair.Itbecomesthe"guesswhatthemagicianislying
about"game?Ratherthanthe"it'sallhereinfrontofyou,now
figureitoutgame."

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Ifyoudisagree,wheredoesitstop?WouldyoubecoolwithaTV
magiciandoinganentireshowwithtrickphotography?
Basically,Ifeelthepuzzlehastobeproperlypresented.It'snotan
ethicsthing.It'sjustmyopiniononkeepingmagicentertaining.
Whenthepuzzlehasbeenthrownoutthewindow,andyoudon't
evenknowwhatitisyou'retryingtofigureout,there'snothing
entertainingaboutit.
SugarRushishere!Freakishlyvisualmagic.http://www.plattmagic.com

drchutney

Posted:Jun30,200412:01pm
0

It'saninterestingtopic,andyou'recertainlynotoffbaseinraising
it.It'sbeenlightlytouchedoninsomeoftheDerrenBrownthreads,
i.e.,doesanypreshowworkforhisTVspecialsnegatehisclaimof
'nostooges'?
Specialuser
UnitedKingdom
518Posts

Spectatorspaytheirmoneytobemystifiedandmostwillnotbe
botheredabouthowtheyaredeceived.(Hopefullythey'llmarvelfor
daysafterwards.)Therewouldprobablybeanelementof
disappointmentiftheyfoundoutlaterthatstoogeworkwas
involved,becausethey'rewillingtosuspendbeliefforthedurationof
theshowandbelieveinaperformerwithgreatmentalability.
Yetthesamewouldapplytothemdiscoveringamiraclethey
witnessedandapplaudedwastotallyselfworkingandsomethinga
childcoulddo.
Attheendoftheshow,ifthey'vebeenentertained,mystifiedand
amazed,andleavewantingmore,themethodsdon'treallymatter.
It'stheperformancethatcounts.
We'rehavingalaugh!
GrabyourselfaFREEJokeEbookathttp://thejester.biz

Osiris

Posted:Jun30,200412:02pm
0

Arrgh!

Specialuser
610Posts

Firstly,stopthinkinglikeadangmagician.Inmyopinionandinmy
experiencedoingPsychicstyledwork,theuseofastoogeis
somethingmagiciansandtentrevivalistdo,notMENTALISTS!
Now,letmeeatmyownwords...
Stoogescanbeusedinacreativemanner.RickMauespeaksa
greatdealonthisideaandhowitcansaveyourbuttintoday's
"Let'sexposeeverything"world.
UnfortunatelyIcan'tgointoextremedetail(duetosecrets),but
thinkaboutplacingtheSwamiontheotherhand,e.g.,lettingthe
stoogedothedirtyworksotheheatisoffofyou.(Infact,Ibelieve

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anotedMentalistdidexactlythatonamajorTVspecialrecently.)
Preshowwork,inmyopinion,cancreatethefeelofaninstant
stoogebut,onlywhenitisbeinghandledwrong.Ihavenoproblems
clippingquestionsandinformationifIhavenoalternativethat's
practicalandwhichallowsmetowork"clean".Thecatchis,Iseek
alternativemethodswhenandwherepossible.Idespisehavingto
dopreshowandhavefoundthatit'snotneededninetimesoutof
10.
Bearinmind,thepeopleyouareclippingdon'tknowyou'redoingit.
Secondly,ifyoubelievethey'resuspiciousaboutyourclipboardor
whateveryou'reusing,don'tuseit!Too,askyourselfwhyyoufear
thatelement.IfyouhandleYOURTOOLSliketheymeannothing,
theaudiencewillseetheminthesamelight.Whenpossiblehave
thehost/esshandouttheclipboardstohavefolksfillout
information(oranaccomplice).Anotherexcellentalternativeisto
usealittletechniqueT.A.speaksofinMind,Myth&Magic(I'llnot
tipithere,butifyoulookyou'llfindit.It'sexcellent,nonsuspicious
andworksverywell.I'vebeenusingitforawhilenowinmy
Mysteryshowsandloveit!)
InstantStoogingissomethingIdetest.Again,Ibelieveit'sa
Magician'smethodvs.somethingthat's"proper"formentalism.The
reasonbeingisverysimple:someoneisbeing"letin"onasecret.
Usuallyinanotsosubtleway.Sure,thetrickmaybeverycool,but
thepsychologicaladvantageIwantwhenpeopletalkaboutwhat
theyexperience,islost.
I'vespokenofthisbefore:ifIwanttocluesomeonein,Ineeda
waytocuethemandmakethatcuevanish.Inotherwords,Iwant
thatpersontobeuncertain,asifthey'vehada"Psychic"
premonition.
Oneofmyfavoritemethodsistousesomethingalongthelineof
THINKINK.Ittakesonashapetocuetheparticipantandthen
quicklyreturnstoapuddleshape.Noevidence!Othersimple
methodsincludetheGHOSTGLASSliquidorsubtle"flashes"suchas
canbedoneinaWaterfallshuffle.
Ifyoufeelthatyou'retakingadvantageoffolksbydoingpreshow
work,thenchangeyourstyleandact.Believeitornot,themagic
communityistheonlyplaceyou'regoingtofindsuchantics
happening(outsideofaverycrudeSpiritualistschurch,maybe).
Mostoftoday's"Psychics"simplyaskthequestionorimplya
questionand"fish"forsomeoneintheroomtorespond(WatchJohn
Edwardsandyou'llgetthepoint.)
Experiment.Learntofindthewaytoaccomplishyourgoalsasa
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performerusingmethodsthatarecomfortabletoyouaswellas
practical.Idarenotgofurtheratthisstageinthegame.
freddyz

Posted:Jun30,200402:51pm
0

Thiscanbeathornyquestion,butIfeelitbecomescrystalclear
whenyoutakeintoconsiderationoneessentialfact.

Newuser
14Posts

ThemomentIwalkinfrontofagroupofpeopletoperform,a
"show"isbeginning.Notalecture,notachurchservice,notanIRS
audit,buta"show."
Asanactor,Idoplentyofpreshowwork.Iputonmakeup,
costumes,memorizelines,asetisbuilt,lightsaredesigned,andall
sortsofother"preshow"workisdonetocreateaneffectiveand
entertaining"show."
Noneofthisiseverconsideredunethical,andI'mnotworriedthat
someonemaythinkthatthecharactersorstoryI'mtellingisrealor
not.Itmayhavearelationshiporresemblancetoreallife,butthat's
asfarasitgoes.
Sowhyshouldpreshowworkforamentalistbeconsideredany
differently?Mycontractwiththeaudiencewhetherit'saplay,a
musical,acabaret,amagicshow,oramentalismshowisthatI
amgoingtoentertainthemusingallthestagecraftatmy
command.Period.
I'mnottryingto"prove"anything.Iwilldoeverythinginmypower
toinvokearesponsefromtheaudience,andifthatincludesusing
lights,music,elementsofstorytelling,magicalphenomenon,or
demonstrationsofpsychicpower,it'sallpartofthe"show."
Now,Ihavetotakemildumbragetotheuseoftheword"stooge."
Someonemodifieditearlierinthisthreadbysaying"instant
stooge,"whichIfeelismoreontracktoaproperdeceptionofpre
showvolunteers,butthistermhasbeenbroadenedovertheyears
insuchawaythatismisleading.
Atruestooge(orstickorhorseinthehypworld)issomeonewhois
"in"ontheactandisanother"actor."An"instantstooge"inthe
originaldefinitionisusuallyanaudiencememberwhoisbeing
"cued"orpromptedtoactinacertainway.(RemembertheGeorge
Andersonployofwriting"Now!"onhiscigarette,andwhenhe
wantedthespectatortosay"stop"hesimplybenthisfingersinand
letthepersonseethis"command!")
Thisterm"instantstooge"hasnowevolvedtoincludepreshow
participants,andIfeelthatthisisanimproperinclusion.
Ifyourpreshowworkisproperlydone,thepersonfromwhomyou

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gainedinformation(orforcedsomethingon,etc.)willstillbebaffled
andentertainedduringtheshowproper,albeitinaslightlydifferent
way.
So,ifyouacceptthisdefinition,whatremains?Wehavepreshow
workthatissimplyanotheraspectofthepreparationofa"show."
Wehaveanaudiencememberwhohasbeenaskedtoparticipateat
anontraditionaltime,i.e.,beforetheshowratherthanduringthe
show,andwehaveanaudiencefilledwithpeopleduringtheshow
thepreshowparticipantincludedwhoareentertained.Preshow+
show+audience=ethicalentertainment.QED.
Forme,then,thereisabsolutelynoquestionwhatsoeveraboutthe
"ethics"ofpreshowwork.
Now,dippingwalletstodiscoverinformation...
FredZimmerman
sergestorms

Posted:Jun30,200410:22pm
0

Likethetitleofthebookby,Ibelieve,BobFarmer,"Beat'em,
cheat'emandleav'embleed'en",you'reentertaining.Aslongas
youraudienceisbeingentertainedandnotridiculed,dowhatyou
haveto.
Veteranuser
LasVegas
364Posts

RLFrame

Veteranuser
349Posts

"OverkillisUnderrated"

Posted:Jul1,200408:36am
0

Idrawthelinewithstooges.IfDerrencanrepeatedlyfindwhich
handacoinisin,Iamimpressed.Icandoitrathereasily,of
course,ifthe'spectator'isastooge.Infact,mostmentalismeffects
canbeachievedmucheasierwithstooges.Idon'tthinkthisdoes
muchtoelevatetheart.
TakeaneffectlikeMaxMaven'sPsign.Aspectatorpicksanumber
betweenoneandeight.Turningtheboardover,itisshownthatthe
numberscorrespondtoeightdifferentdesigns.Thedesignfreely
chosenbythespectatorperfectlymatchesapredictionbythe
performer.Itisaclevereffectthatisnotcleveratallifthe
spectatorisastooge,andnotnearlysocleverifanumberisforced
orclippedpreshow.
Contimentalisterrific,butcanbedifficulttopulloff,andisnotquite
100%(spectatormustknowEuropeandbeabletospell).Buta
stoogewithaprearrangedcountryinhisheadwithoutadoubt
looksmuchcleanertoanaudience,andapersonclippedfora

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countrypreshoweliminatesalltheproblemswithContimentalas
well.IstilllikeContimentalbetter.
IfImarketedaneffectwhereaspectatorfreelythinksofanyword
andthenyoudramaticallyrevealitletterbyletterwithno'fishing'
atalltothunderousapplause,Icouldprobablysellalotofthem
untilthereviewsappearedhereonthe'caf.'Veryeasytodowitha
stoogeoraclipboard.
Istherereallyanyincentivetodevelopanyneweffectswhenthey
cannotachievethesameresultsasstoogesorpreshow?My
opinionis"Yes",becausealotofpeopleareinterestedineffects
thatdonotinvolvedstoogesorpreshow.
paulduggan

Regularuser
131Posts

Posted:Jul1,200408:57am
0

Idon'tlikestooges,butIdisagreewithPlatt'sargument.Magicand
mentalismeffectsshouldn'tbepresentedaspuzzlesforpeopleto
tryandfigureoutinanycase.Doingsowillonlydiminishtheeffect
andleaveyouwithanaudiencethatisaggressivelytryingtobring
youdown.
Myproblemwithstoogesisthattheaudienceexpects*you*tobe
theperformer,andtherestoftheaudiencetobeontheirlevel.I
don'tliketheideaofthe'audience'beingperformers.
Itwasagoodbattle,andtheynearlywon.

DangerMouse

Posted:Jul1,200409:25pm
0

Whataboutconfederates?Thosewhocue?Orexchange(eh,
Vision)?Orevenwrite???
Whataboutthem?
Specialuser
LONDONCITY
504Posts

TerryHolley

Curtis.
Cheeseisnothingbutthickmilk.
Posted:Jul1,200410:51pm
0

Iusedoneinstantstoogeroutineinmostoftheover400mentalism
showsthatIperformedatathemeparkonesummer.WouldIdoit
again?YES!Theresponsewasoverwhelming!DoIstilldoit?YES,
whentheoccasionisright.
Innercircle
1597Posts

Theinstantstoogeroutinemakesmenolessofamentalistthan
whenIdon'tuseone.
IMHOthesamegoesforpreshowwork.Ifoneisreallya
mentalist/psychic,onemaynotneedit,butI'mwiththerestofthe
mortalsoutthere.Theaudiencemaynotbeimpressediftheyfind

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outIusedpreshowworkorastooge,butwouldtheybeimpressed
toknowthatIalsousedatrickdeckorasmallpieceofleadtopull
offaseemingmiracle?
Ineverhaveaproblemwithlettingaspectator"inonit,"becauseI
neverclaimtobea"realpsychic/mentalist"(whateverthatisbut
IthinkmostofyouknowwhatImean)outsideoftheperformance.
Priortomyshow,ItelltheaudiencethatIhavenosupernatural
power,butIwillattempttoconvincethemthatIdoduringthe
performance.AtthatpointIassumetheroleofapsychic.Atthe
endoftheperformance,Istepoutofthatroleandonceagain
explainthateverythingthattheyhavejustwitnessedwasdone
throughordinarymeans.
Astotheethicsofpresentingyourselfasreallyhavingthese
paranormalabilities,wellthat'sanotherthread(andsoisthe
discussionabouttheprosandconsofdisclaimers)!
Terry
CoauthorwithillusionistAndre'Koleof"AstrologyandPsychicPhenomena."

domcoke

Newuser
35Posts

Posted:Jul2,200410:32pm
0

I'vepostedonthistopicbefore,andIamnotconvincedbythe
argumentthatastoogeisonaparwithanyothermethodsuchasa
DL.Itisnot.Tosayitis,istodiluteandsimplifythedistinction
betweenthetwothings.ADLtakesskill.Atopchangetakesskill,
andskillinmisdirection.Bothofthese,touseasexamplesof
methods,aredeviceswovenintowhattheaudienceknowsisa
trick.
IfIdidacardtrickwithastoogeandotheraudiencemembers,
wherethe"picked"cardwasprearranged,andthattheywouldcall
outthiscardoncue,thenamIamagician,oramIjustamember
ofatwoteamconact?
AnAudiencememberfindingoutthemethodoftheDLmightbe
impressedbythesimplicityofthemethod,andtheskillinachieving
it.Aspectatordiscoveringthatthepersonwhopickedthecardwas
astoogewoulddismissthemagicianasacompletefraudwith
absolutelynoskill.ThemoreonedoeseffectsthatcanONLYbe
achievedwithastooge,instantorotherwise,thenthemoreoneis
sailingclosethewindintermsofexposure,andultimately,career
suicide...
Derren'sdesiretoconceiveofmoreandmoreeffectsispossibly
sailingthiscourse.Whensomeonewatchestheeffectwherea
memberofthepublicstopsawomaninthestreet,andthewoman
interviewedafterwardsitsoobviouslyastooge,thenpeoplewillbe

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switchingoffindroves.
StevenEvans

Posted:Jul3,200411:05am
0

ThebestuseofstoogesandassistantsthatIhaveeverseenisby
DavidBerglasinhis'TheMindandMagicof'.Hetalksalotabout
stooges,assistantsandpreshowwork.Everythinghesaysseems
tomakesensetome.
Regularuser
Wrexham,North
Wales.
191Posts

It'sallabouthandlingtheperson(thepersonyouaregetting
informationof,preshow).LeeEarlehassomegoodthoughtsonthe
DesertBrainstormvol.1inhiseffectCombination.
Ipersonallyhavenoproblemswithpreshow,butIwouldn'tusea
stooge.
'TheimpossibleIdoimmediately
Miraclestakealittlelonger'
DavidBerglas.

Platt

Innercircle
NewYork
1755Posts

Posted:Jul3,200412:43pm
0

Okay,thebasicargumentforusingstoogesseemstobethis:The
minuteyousitdowntowatchmagic,you'rebeingentertained,the
showhasbegun,andtheaudienceknowsit'sashow,soanything
goes.
Withthatlogic,wouldyoubeokayseeingamoviethatbeginswith
thequote:"Thisisatruestory.Everythingyouseehappenedjust
thewayitoccurred"?Onlytolaterlearnitwas100%fictionalstory.
You'dprobablyfeeldupedandmanipulated.Butwithabovelogic,
you'dhavetosaytoyourself,well,it'sjustamovie,andamovie's
entertainment,sothefilmmakercansaywhateverhewants.
BecausetheminuteIsatdowntowatchthepicture,the
"entertainment"hadbegun.
Andthemagiciancansay,"Nostooges,notrickyediting,no
preshowwork"andthat'sallpartoftheentertainment.
Idon'tagree.Itshouldbeclearwhenthe"entertainment"begins.
SugarRushishere!Freakishlyvisualmagic.http://www.plattmagic.com

TomCutts

Posted:Jul3,200401:21pm
0

"Itshouldbeclearwhenthe"entertainment"begins."
Pleasesharewithuswhythisshouldbeso.
Staff
NorthernCA
4848Posts
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btaxin

Regularuser
sanfrancisco
152Posts

DanielLove

Loyaluser
UK
265Posts

Posted:Jul3,200402:44pm
0

Well,toaddmytwocents,Idon'tseeaproblemwithusinga
stoogeaslongasI'msureheorshewon'tgiveitallawayafterthe
show.Otherwise,itdoesn'tseemanylessethicalthan(mis
)readingaoneaheadbillet.Ineithercase,we'redeceiving(orlying
to)ouraudience.
BobTaxin
Posted:Jul3,200403:58pm
0

Oddyoushouldmentionfilms,asoneofthesinglemostpowerful
filmsI'veeverseenwasbasedonthisveryconcept.Itclaimedto
bebasedcompletelyongenuineeventsIwon'tnamethefilmas
thatwouldspoilit.Thefactiswithoutthiselementthefilmwould
havebeensimplyaverage.
AnotherfilmthateveryonenowknowswasfakeisTheBlairWitch
project.Againthestrengthofthisfilmwasalltheeffortputinto
makingusbelieveitwasfactratherthanfiction.
Inmyopinionthelevelsofengagementcreatedbythisruse
exceededthatofthediscoveryofthereality.

bobser

Innercircle
4154Posts

Posted:Jul3,200407:58pm
0

FirstofallletmesaythatIveryrarelyusestoogesbutIhavedone
andIamveryhappywiththosewhodo.
IhavetosaythatIdofindinterestingthedelusionsofgrandeur
possessedbysomewithinthemagical/mentalistfraternity.
Imeantosay,althoughthereareskillsinvolvedinourart(andI
believeitisanart)thereasonwhyweachievewhatweachieveis
becausewecheat.Orisitjustmewhilsteveryoneelseissimply
highlyskilled?Ortheyreally'are'magicians?!
Idounderstandthatsomeguyshavewhattheymightcallethicsin
notbelievingastoogeshouldbeinvolved,andIdorespectthat
belief.However,formeit'slikeadmittingthatIcheatbutI'mnotas
badashimcos'he'really'cheats.Whynotgothewholehogand
simplyquitallthosedevioustricksaltogetherandbecomea
councilor?
Me?ShowmehowIcanachievetheeffectthatIwanttoachieve
withoutanyonesuspectinghowIachieveit,andIcallthat'magic'.
BobBurnsisthecreatorofTheSwan.

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RLFrame

Posted:Jul3,200409:57pm
0

Idonotthinkthisboilsdowntodenyingthatallofourmethodsare
'cheating.'Mentalistsandmagiciansuseavarietyofunderhanded
andsomeveryclevermethodswhichrequiremuchthought,
creativityandpractice.
Veteranuser
349Posts

ThatismymainpointforNOTusingstooges.Mosteverygreat
mentalismeffectcanbeequaledorbetteredwithastooge.Drawing
duplicationsareapieceofcake:yourstoogeandyouhaveitall
workedoutaheadoftime.Anywordcanbedivined,anyquestion
canbeanswered.Youfindthecoininthehandeverytimewitha
stoogeontheotherend.
Thepointisthatsomedenystoogestoraisethebar.Theywould
rathercoldread,whichischallenging,thangiveafullaccurate
'reading'forapersonthatyouhaveprearrangedtobechosenand
whopretendstobeamazed,thoughthelattermethodismore
accurateandmucheasier.
Onceagain,noonedeniesthemiraclesthatcanbeworkedwith
stoogesandotherassortedpreshowwork.
Howaboutifyouspentmoneyfora"great"versionof"OutOfThis
World"withaborroweddeckthatisbroughtbythespectatortothe
show.Severalotherspectatorsshuffleandthen,withoutthe
performereventouchingthecards,thespectatorlaysouttheface
downcardsintotwopilesaccordingtohiswhim,andthenthe
spectatorturnsthepilesoverinthefirstpile,andinthesecondpile,
allarered.
Youanxiouslyawaitforthemanuscript,andwhenitcomesitisonly
fivewordslong"M***keddeckandastooge."Mostanyonewould
bedisappointedwiththat,but,hey,theeffectismuchmore
impressivetoanunsuspectingaudiencethananyotherversionof
OOTWthatIhaveseenmarketedorperformed.
StillIsuspectthatmostpeoplewouldbedisappointedwiththis
method.Isurewould.

Platt

Innercircle
NewYork
1755Posts

Posted:Jul4,200402:52pm
0

[quote]On2004070315:58,DanielLovewrote:
Oddyoushouldmentionfilms,asoneofthesinglemostpowerful
filmsI'veeverseenwasbasedonthisveryconcept.Itclaimedto
bebasedcompletelyongenuineeventsIwon'tnamethefilmas
thatwouldspoilit.Thefactiswithoutthiselementthefilmwould
havebeensimplyaverage.
Youspeak,ofcourse,oftheCoenbrothers'"Fargo."Fargoisoneof
myfavoritemovies.AndIcouldjusthaveeasilyused"Fargo"asthe

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reasontorationalizeusingstooges.
PersonallyIfeltthedisclaimerupfrontwascompletely
unnecessary.Itwouldhavebeenabrilliantmoviewithorwithoutit.
Butwhileonthesubject,Fargowasinfactbasedonasimilarsetof
eventsthattookplaceinMinnesota.Theyjustdidn'thappenexactly
astheCoenschosetosharethem.Probablynotcloseatall.For
somereasonI'lllettheCoensgetawaywithit.Withmagicitjust
seemswrong.
SugarRushishere!Freakishlyvisualmagic.http://www.plattmagic.com

AlanMunro

Posted:Jul5,200406:05pm
1

Aslongasthemethodacheivesthedesiredeffectanditwon'tland
meinjail,I'llconsiderusingit.lol
http://www.sneakymagician.com/
Innercircle
GrandRapids,
Michigan,USA
5606Posts

magicinsight

Innercircle
2812Posts

Posted:Jul8,200402:42pm
0

Whileusinga"stooge"orahelpercanbejustifiedstrictlyinlimited
magiceffects,suchasinaHimberringroutineorinanArrowHead
illusionwheretheparticipantisletinonthemethodimmediately
priortotheperformance,Idonotbelievesuchtechniquesshouldbe
condonedinapurementalismroutine.Thereisadistinctdifference
isusinga"stooge"andinutilizinglegitimatepreshowtechniques.
Mr.Osterlindtellstheaudienceduringhisroutinesasseenonhis
DVDsthathedoesnotandneverhadused"stooges"andhaseven
offereda$50,000rewardtoanyonewhocanproveotherwise.This
ispowerfulinthemindsoftheaudience.JustlookatMr.Osterlind's
ImpPadroutine.Surethesameresultcouldhavebeenachievedby
usinga"stooge."Butbyusingalegitimateandsimpletechniquein
hispreshowwork,Mr.Osterlindwasabletodoperformanamazing
drawingduplicationwhilebeingabletohonestlystatetothe
audiencethattheparticipantdrewthepictureandsealeditinside
tinfoilandtheninasealedenvelopeunderthefairestconditions,
andthatthepreviouslyselectedaudiencememberevenkeptthe
padthatthepicturewasdrawnon.Theaudiencememberconcurs
thathisdrawingwasdoneunderthestrictestandfairestconditions
withoutMr.OSterlindbeingabletoseethedrawing.Thisis
mentalism.Thisisentertainment.
Beliefmattersmorethantruth.Everymoment,beliefinimaginarythingsalterslives
whiletruthsitsunnoticedandwaits.
Hakim,Loreweaver

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TheMagicCafeForums"Preshowwork"and"Ethics"

JayAre

Innercircle
4149Posts

Posted:Jun26,200509:13am
0

Sorrytoraisethisoldtopicfromthedead,wouldweconsider
electronicdevicesusedinmentalismtobeinthesamecatagoryas
preshowwork,orstooges?Aren'tall3justwaystoachievea
desiredeffect?Ithinksometimeswe'rejusttohardonourselvesas
faraspurity,alloftheargumentsabovehavevalidpoints.Idon't
thinkanyofthethreeareunethicalIMHO.
xxx

Richard
Osterlind

Posted:Jun26,200510:40am

Quote:
On2005062609:13,icy_rabbitwrote:
Sorrytoraisethisoldtopicfromthedead,
wouldweconsiderelectronicdevicesusedin
mentalismtobeinthesamecatagoryaspre
showwork,orstooges?Aren'tall3justways
toachieveadesiredeffect?Ithinksometimes
we'rejusttohardonourselvesasfaraspurity,
alloftheargumentsabovehavevalidpoints.I
don'tthinkanyofthethreeareunethical
IMHO.

V.I.P.
2142Posts

Icy,
I'mverygladyourevivedthisthreadandthatyouveryingeniously
linkedelectronicdeviceswithpreshowworkandstooges.Idohave
adifferentconclusionthanyou,however.
WhatIamabouttosaymayoffendsomemembers,butplease
understandIamnottryingtoputdownanyone'smethodofworking
ortheirbeliefsaboutperformingethics.Iamtryingtouselogichere
tosupportmyownviews.
ELECTRONICS.Inthesedayofincreasingtechnologicalknowledge,
moreandmorepeopleassumethatsometypeofspecialpens,
electronicclipboardsandotherremotecomputerdevicesareatuse
inachievingmentalismeffects.Lookatthemovie,"LeapofFaith."
Infact,somevariationsofthenewdevicesonthementalism
marketcanbefoundinStaplesandOfficeMax,storeswherepeople
otherthanmagiciansfrequent!Whygotheveryroutepeople
suspectwhenyoudon'thaveto?
PRESHOWWORK.LetmepointoutthateventhoughIincludedone
hiddenpreshoweffectinETMMMforthesakeofcompleteness,Ido
notpersonallybelieveinthiskindofworkatall.(Asamatterof
fact,InowwishIhaddonetheslateeffectwithoutthepreshow
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work.)OneofmymainreasonsisoneIhavetalkedaboutbeforein
greatlength.AFTERTHESHOW,stoogesandpeopleapproached
beforetheshowTALK!YouwantyourprestiegetogoUPover
time,notDOWN!Ifpeopleintheaudiencefindoutthatcertain
spectatorsusedduringaperformancewasapproachedbeforethe
show,theysay,"Oh,that'showhedidit!"Eveniftheydon'tknow
exactlyHOW.Yourperceptionasamentalistgoesdown!
STOOGES.Ifastoogetalks(andtheyusuallydo),forgetit!You
thenbecomeascoundrelandacheat.Evenifsomeoneinan
audiencefiguresoutthewayanormalmentalismeffectworks,they
maystillgiveyoucreditforbeing"clever."But,iftheyfindoutyou
usedastooge,intheireyesyouhaveriggedtheshowandthatis
NOTclever!Itischeating!
Ihavenotbeenoverwhelmedwiththerecentrashoftelevision
mentalismshowfortheabovereasons.Ihaveplayedsomeofthem
fornonmentalismfriendsand,whenasupposedstrangercomes
walkingdownthestreetandthementalistjustwalksuptohimand
giveshimsomepersonalkindofinformation,theyjustlookedatme
andsaid,"Comeon!Thatisrigged!"And,ofcourse,theyareRIGHT!
Theydidn'tsaythatbecausetheyarethatfamiliarwithmentalism,
butratherbecauseITISJUSTCOMMONSENSE.Inordertopushthe
thresholdsofmiracleonestepfurther,thesetelevisonperformers
goTOOFARandbecometotallyunbelievable!Intheearlydaysof
television,producerswereafraidtoputmagiconTVbecausethey
thoughttheaudiencewouldassumeitwas"cameratricks."Ittook
innovatorslikeMarkWilsontoshowhowmagiccouldworkby
keepingthecamerasrollinganddoingREALMAGICLIVE!These
earlylessonsseemedtohavebeenforgotten.Now,anythinggoes.
Someofyoumaysay,"Well,someperformersonlyusepreshow
workacoupleoftimesintheirshows."ButIsaythatonceitis
apparentthathediditonce,thebelievabilityofeverythingelseis
ruinedandanythingthatlooksimpossiblewillbeputdowntopre
showworkorstooges.Itislikeanunspokentrustbetweenthe
spectatorandthepeformer:"OK,youcandoanythingyoursneaky
littlemindcandreamupASLONGASISEEEVERYTHINGTHATIS
GOINGONandASLONGASYOUHAVENOTRIGGEDTHESHOW
WITHSTOOGES!"Onceyoubreakthattrust,theaudiencewilljust
say,"Whocares?"
ThereisonemorepointthatIwishIwouldseemorepeople
making.Whytheheckismagicanydifferentthantheotherarts?
Wouldyoubothersittingthroughaperformancewhereasingerwas
lipsyncingthewholeshow???Wouldyouwatchapresentationofa
famousorchestrasupposedlyplayingwhen,inreality,itwasa
recordingtheywereplayingalongwith???Eveniftheywerecapable
ofplayingthatmusiclive,iftheyweren'tWHATISTHEPOINT!?
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Isn'titamatterofsimplyDOINGYOURJOB.Youaresupposedto
haveSKILLSasamentatist.ThatiswhatmakesyouaMENTALIST.
Youaresupposedtobeabletostandupinfrontofanaudienceand
doyourthingwithouttheaidofpeoplebehindhescenesandall
kindsofsetups!Isawoneshowintelevisionwheretheywould
havebeenbetteroffusinganACTORinsteadofthementalist!Allhe
didwasfeedbackinformationgottenaheadoftime!Andanactor
wouldhavehadalotmorePERSONALITYthanhedisplayed!
Ibelievethestatementofusingaroomfulofpeopletofoolone,is
bunk!Idon'tcarewhosaidit.Isn'titamuchhighergoaltofoola
roomfulofpeopleallbyyourself?Whynotpayattentioninsteadto
thewordsofAlKoranwhosaid,"Whyusestoogeswhenthereisso
muchwonderfulmentalismoutthere?"
Ireallydon'tcareiftheseviewsmakemeunpopularoropento
criticism.Afteralifetimeinthebusiness,andafterseeingsomany
greats,itpainsmetoseeabunchofgarbagegettingsomuch
attention.Itisnotskillfuloringenious.Anditdoesn'teven
accomplishwhatitsetouttodo.
RichardOsterlind
MrMindman

Regularuser
UK
111Posts

Posted:Jun26,200510:48am
0

ThanksRichardforyourinsite,forwhatitisworthIagreewithyou
andIdon'tandneverhaveusedstoogesorpreshowwork.
Asyousaid,thereissomuchgoodmentalismoutthere,thereisno
needtorelyon'cheating'.
Anotherthingisthattodopreshowtakesalotofplanning!to
ensureyouhaveapreshowpartyetc.theriskisnotworthtaking.
Alsoitcangetoutofcontrolifitlookstoogoodtobetrue,thisis
whatcausesquestionstobeaskedlateron.'Real'mentalism
techniquescanbeusedtoachieveeffectsthatarejustassuper
clean!andifpeopleaskaroundlater,thereisnothingtobefound
andthementalistscreditgoesupandup.
Justsomethingtothinkabout
JonJames

RLFrame

Posted:Jun26,200511:10am
0

Richard,
Amen.Andamenagain.
Veteranuser
349Posts
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entity

Posted:Jun26,200512:14pm
0

Richard:Inanswertoyouadmonitionsagainsttheuseofpreshow
work:

Innercircle
Canada
5054Posts

Dunninger
Kreskin
TimConnover
DerrenBrown
TheabovefourareundeniablysuccessfulMentalists.3ofthefour
areorwerehouseholdnamesinvariouspartsoftheworld.Theyall
garneredtopdollarfortheirwork.Theyallpossesstheskillsthat
youspeakofinabundance.Theyalluseorusedpreshowwork.
Whiletheuseofpreshowworkmaynotbeyourcupoftea,others
seemtohavefoundwaystouseittotheirbenefit.
entity
I
email:tombaxter@cogeco.ca

RickDangerous

Specialuser
Ican'tbelieveImade
897Posts

Posted:Jun26,200512:39pm
0

Hmmm...Richardreallygotmethinking.
Iguessifstoogesfityourperformancestyleandcharacter,thenit's
okay,butasMr.Osterlindsays:Theycanreallyruinthetrustofthe
audienceinyourabilitiesandskills.IwouldNEVEREVERfor
exampledosomethingthatwouldmakemelookbad(instant
stooges)causeiftheonepersonknowsthatallIdoislittletricks
withmyaudienceandinvitethemtoworkwithme,itblows
everything.ThevolunteerWILLTALKtoothers.
Beasimpromptuaspossible,Imeantherereallyaremany
methodstoachievethesameresultswithouttheuse(andrisk)of
stooges.
"Realityiswhatyoucangetawaywith."
RobertA.Wilson
"Thinkforyourselfandquestionauthority."
TimothyLeary

SvenRygh

Posted:Jun26,200504:15pm
0

Richard
Nothingcouldhavebeenmoreadequatethanyourpost.
Innercircle
Oslo,Norway.
1731Posts

Bravo!

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Sven
WWW.SVENRYGH.NO
"Keepitassimpleaspossible,butnosimpler"
http://www.svenrygh.no/svenrygh/presse/nrkforstogsist/
http://www.svenrygh.no/video.html

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