P. 1
Huebl Testimony Jan 2010

Huebl Testimony Jan 2010

|Views: 486|Likes:
Publicado porcrimefile

More info:

Published by: crimefile on Nov 05, 2010
Direitos Autorais:Attribution Non-commercial

Availability:

Read on Scribd mobile: iPhone, iPad and Android.
download as PDF, TXT or read online from Scribd
See more
See less

10/26/2013

pdf

text

original

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording, transcript produced by transcription services.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

2

3 MILKE, et al.,

4 Petitioners,

5

vs.

No. CV 98-60-PHX-RCB

6

RYAN, eta 1 . ,

Phoenix, Arizona January 12, 2010 10:05 a.m.

7

Respondents.

8

9

TRANSCRIPT OF CONTINUED EVIDENTIARY HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE ROBERT C. BROOMFIELD UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

APPEARANCES:

For the Petitioner Debra Milke:

By: Michael D. Kimerer Amy Nguyen

Lori Voepel

KIMERER & DERRICK PC 221 E. Indianola Avenue Phoenix, AZ 85012-2002

For the Respondents:

By: Julie Ann Done

Kent Cattani

OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 1275 W. Washington Street Phoenix, AZ 85007

For Christopher Milke:

By: Douglas L. Irish

CRIME VICTIM LEGAL ASSISTANCE PROJECT

1850 N. Central Ave., Suite 1440 Phoenix, AZ 85004

Court Recorder:

Vicki Reger

Transcription Service:

AVTranz

365 E. Coronado Rd., Ste. #100 Phoenix, AZ 85004-1525

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

1

2

INDEX

Direct Cross Redirect

Recross

3 WITNESSES FOR PETITIONER:

4 Paul Huebl

(By Ms. Nguyen)

S (By Ms. Done) (By Ms. Nguyen)

6 (By Ms. Done) (By Ms. Nguyen)

Richard Leo

8 (By Mr. Kimerer) (By Ms. Done)

14 Respondents':

None

7

9

10

11

12

13

lS

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2S

3
16
37
44
45
48 127
80 WITNESSES FOR RESPONDENTS:

None

Marked

Received

EXHIBITS:

Petitioner's: 23

S7A

17 48

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

3

1

Q

And do you do that both in California and Arizona?

January 12, 2010

2

THE CLERK: Civil case 98-60 Milke et al. vs. Ryan et

3 al., on for evidentiary hearing continued from yesterday.

4

THE COURT: Do we have the next witness available?

5

MS. NGUYEN: Yes, Your Honor. Petitioner calls Paul

6 Huebl.

7

THE COURT:

Fine.

8

PAUL HUEBL, PETITIONER'S WITNESS, SWORN

9

THE COURT: Thank you. Please have a seat.

10

THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honor, Distinguished

11 Counsel, and Ms. Milke, and also Happy New Year to all of you.

12 DIRECT EXAMINATION

13 BY MS. NGUYEN:

14

Q

Good morning. Can you introduce yourself to the court,

15 please?

16

A

My name is Paul Huebl.

17

Q

And Mr. Huebl, what does your current employment entail?

18

A

I'm a licensed private investigator both here and in the

19 State of California.

20

Q

And do you have your own business in that capacity?

21

A

Yes, I do.

22

Q

What does that entail?

23

A

It entails criminal defense, but I also do freelance

24 television investigative news producing.

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

4

1

A

I'm sorry.

Q

Do you that both in California and Arizona?

2

3

4

A

Yes, I do.

Q

And so that entails Just field reporting, field

5 investigations, and reporting your findings to different news

6 stations?

7

A

Not such reporting, but gathering information, gathering

8 evidence and facts to bring to reporters and help them prepare

10

9 their stories.

11

12

13

14

15

Q

And how long have you been doing that?

A

Oh, God, since 1981.

Q

And when did you become a licensed private investigator?

A

1981.

Q

Both, in Arizona and California?

A

NO, I started out with a Arizona license, and then later I

17

16 added my California license.

18

19

20

21

Q

Prior to becoming a private investigator, what did you do?

A

I was a police officer in Chicago.

Q

And how long were you a police officer?

A

Just shy of 12 years.

Q

And as a police officer, did you undergo training in

22 speaking to witnesses and interviewing somebody in looking for

24

23 factors to determine whether they're telling the truth?

A

Yes, as part of an overall police academy experience,

25 certainly.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

5

1

For

Q

And can you tell the Court about that training a little

2 bit?

3

A

Well it basically starts out with understanding the laws,

4 the law of arrest, interviews, interrogations, the Justifiable

5 use of deadly force and the liability, traffic

6

Q

Let me interrupt you there, Mr. Huebl, specifically when

7 you're assessing, when you're interviewing either a witness or

8 a suspect, specifically what are the factors that you were

9 trained in determining reliability of statements?

10

Well basically to do an interview.

If a person is in

A

11 custody, obviously you have to advise them of their rights, and

12 there's certain techniques that you use to elicit information.

13 But basically you don't give the suspects the answers of the

14 questions that you're asking.

15

Q

But what about assessing, you know, whether or not they're

16 telling the truth, such as observing body language, eye

17 contact, so on and so forth?

18

All of those factors are in it.

Eye contact is important,

A

20 minimize -- For example, if a person tells a confession to you

19 they explain to us, and body language, and also how people

22

21 and then maybe later on they want to mitigate why they did it,

"That I really mean to confess.

I was drunk.

I was promised

24

23 something." You know, something like that, or people to get

them to confess, you kind of minimize what they did.

25 example, if they committed something very serious, you try to

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

6

6

Q

And how did you become involved?

1 suggest that maybe it was morally acceptable, or somehow it

2 might be self-defense, maybe when it1s not, but if you kind of

3 open those doors, you're going to get them to essentially give

4 you more information and whatnot. And of course one of the

5 things that I was taught is if a person is present --

MS. DONE:

Your Honor, we would obJect to this line

7 of questioning. This witness was not called as expert on

8 police interrogation techniques. We were never told that he

9 was an expert.

10

THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase your questions.

11

MS. NGUYEN:

I'm going to be moving on.

12 BY MS. NGUYEN:

20 at some point become involved in the investigation of State vs.

13

Q

Based on your training, were you able to employ those

14 skills during your 12 years as a police officer?

15

A

Oh, certainly.

16

Q

And were you also able to employ those skills doing

17 interviews as an investigative reporter?

18

A

Certainly.

19

Q

And in your position as an investigative reporter, did you

22

21 Milke?

23

24

25

A

Yes, I did.

Q

And when was that?

A

That was, I believe December 4, 1989.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

7

1

A

I had very little other than she was arrested and a

A

I got a phone call from, I believe it was a conference

2 call from David Howell and Jim Lemay. David Howell was a news

3 director at Channel 10. Jim Lemay was a producer. And they

4 called me and they told me that the case of Christopher Milke

5 has taken a big turn, that please, "Can you get over to the

6 Maricopa County Jail, and can you interview Debra Milke"? And

7 they knew that because I had a private investigator card, that

8 I could do that.

9

Q

When you say they said the case of Christopher Milke had

10 taken a big turn, what do you mean by that?

11

A

They had made arrests and that the body of the little boy

12 was recovered.

13

Q

Was it your understanding that they had arrested Debra

14 Milke?

15

A

That was my understanding, along with two other men.

16

Q

And what was going to be the purpose of meeting with Debra

17 Milke?

18

A

Essentially to get her side of the story, to get anything

20 public with their broadcasts.

19 at all from her, and so that they could essentially inform the

21

And what information

prior to meeting Debra Milke, what

Q

23

22 information did you have?

24 policeman, who I can't recall, seem to tell me, I don't know if

25 it was a rumor or whatnot, it was unconfirmed, that she

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

8

3

1 confessed. Officially the Phoenix Police Department would

2 absolutely not give us any information.

Q

So you had some information that she may have confessed

4 but that she was arrested at that point?

5

6

7

A

Correct.

Q

And where did you meet Debra Milke?

A

Well I went over to the Maricopa County Jail, and asked

8 for her, and that was it.

9

Q

And do you know how long from the time that you met her,

11

10 how long before she had been arrested?

A

Apparently hours.

She was still Just in the receiving

12 area of the Jail. In other words, she hadn't been moved into

13 the population. She came out to me in the same clothes that

14 she was arrested in. And again, this is in the receiving area.

15 They call it the horseshoe.

16

17

18

19

20

Q

So she hadn't yet been booked and processed?

A

I'm sorry.

Q

She had not yet been booked and processed?

A

I'm not sure what stage of the process she was in.

Q

And so can you tell the Court when you arrived there, what

21 does the process that you went through that brought you to

23

22 eventually meet with her in a room?

A

Well, I came into the jail, and I asked to visit Debra

24 Milke, and they asked me for identification and I showed them

25 my private investigator credential. And then they brought me

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

9

3

Q

And did Debra agree to speak to you?

1 into the receiving room area, in the horseshoe, and then they

2 brought her out to me. And then we have a conversation.

4

5 them.

6

7

A

Yes. Well, she -- I asked her questions and she answered

Q

Did you tell her that you were an investigative reporter?

A

I told her that I was a private investigator and that

8 Channel 10 had sent me over to get her side of the story.

9

11

10 interview?

Q

And did you have a tape recorder with you during that

12

13

A

Absolutely.

Q

And can you describe what type of tape recorder that was?

A

It was a full-size cassette tape recorder and it had a

14 microphone, a concealed microphone that I made myself that's

15 disguised as a ballpoint pen. And the ballpoint pen was up in

16 my shirt. The wire went down my leg and the tape recorder was

18

1 7 concealed.

20

19 interviews?

Q

And is that a method that you often used to record your

A

In states where that's allowed.

Some states it's a crime.

22

21 This state it is allowed.

Q

So you met with Debra. You started asking her questions.

24

23 What questions did you ask?

A

Well the two questions and answers that I can remember

25 verbatim was, "Did you tell the police that you had anything to

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

10

2

Q

And what was Debra's response?

1 do with the death of your son"?

3

A

He eyes got really big and she glared at me, and she says,

4 "Tha t 's crazy. Who told you that? I had nothing to do with

5 the death of my son."

6

7

Q

What was her demeanor, would you describe?

A

She was so shocked and surprised, and I was shocked and

8 surprised at the answer.

10

9

Q

Why were you shocked and surprised at the answer?

A

Well, because I had heard that rumor that she confessed

11 and I also know that people who wind up getting arrested for

13

12 murder usually do confess.

15

14 Saldate?

Q

And this was Just hours after her arrest by Detective

16

A

You know, I am hard-of-hearing.

So please bear with me.

17 Detective Saldate?

Q

Excuse me. And this was Just hours after her arrest by

18 A Apparently so, yes.

19 Q What else did you ask her during that interview?

20 A Well my next question that I remember absolutely verbatim

21 was, "I heard it had something to do with insurance."

23

22 Q And her response?

A

Her response was, "I heard that, too. And that's off the

25

24 wall."

Q

And based on your training and experience as a police

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

12

HUEBL - DIRECT

11

1

A

What I did, I took the actual tape recording that I had

officer, what did you think as far as her

whether she was

2 telling the truth or not?

3

Well she looked me right in the eye.

She was

A

4

sane-looking.

She was sober-looking.

She was dead serious.

I

5

was serious.

I thought it was a serious question. And I felt

6 I was getting a frank answer.

7

Q

And what else took place that you can recall during that

8 interview?

9

Well she asked me, "How can I get a lawyer.

I've asked

A

10 for a lawyer but I don't know how -- I haven't seen one yet.

11 How can I get a lawyer"? And then I

Q

What did you tell her?

13

A

I explained to her the procedure was that she would go in

14 front of a Judge for a bail hearing and since there are two

15 other defendants, there's three of them, one would get the

16 public defender's office, that was what the way it was at the

17

time, and the other two would get a street lawyer.

But after

18 the lawyer is appointed by the initial appearance Judge, that

20 her.

19 it might take a few days before they actually get over to visit

21

23

22 about at the time?

Q

Did it seem like that was something that she was concerned

24

25

A

She was very concerned; and okay.

Q

And did you report your findings of that interview?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

12

1 made and I took it over to Channel 10, to the news room, and

2 immediately a sound engineer and a graphics person grabbed the

3 tape so that they could go put the fonts, the words over what

4 she was saying so people could read it as well as hear it, and

5 then get that sound on video tape. And then the producer, for

6 the 6:00 broadcast was a lady by the name of Mary Cox. Mary

7 Cox listened to the tape and she actually wrote the story

8 because she's sitting there at her typewriter for the

11

10 moment and it was broadcast to over a million people.

9 teleprompter. And so she wrote that story in Just a quick

12

13

14

15

Q

So was that story aired --

A

Absolutely.

Q

-- that night?

A

Yes, it was.

17

16 Debra's case as it went forward?

Q

And did you inform -- were you involved or did you track

A

It was -- essentially, it became my case with Channel 10.

19

18 I was on it constantly, and beginning to end.

20 with her?

Q

And did you ever inform Debra's attorney of your interview

21

23

22 once

A

Well, what I did was I approached Ken Ray in the hallway

24

Q

And can you tell the Court who Ken Ray is?

A

I'm sorry, Ken Ray was Debra Milke's trial defense

25 counsel.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

13

1

Q

Okay.

A

And I approached him in the hallway to get information.

2

3 "I s there anything you can give me about this"? And he said,

4

"You're the man that interviewed Debra.

Don't you dare talk to

5 my client ever again." He scolded me. He was angry. But he

6 never asked me what she said.

7

8 the interview was there?

Q

And did you assume that he knew what she said, given that

9

A

I had to assume it.

I mean, a million people heard it,

11

10 and he apparently knew that I interviewed it.

12

13

Q

And were you also present throughout Debra's trial?

A

Yes, I was.

Q

And based on your training and experience in observing the

14 trial firsthand, what would you say was the most significant

15 piece of evidence against her?

16

17

18

19

A

Armando Saldate's version of his interview of Debra Milke.

Q

And why do you say that?

A

Well, because that apparently was the only evidence that

was there.

It was Armando Saldate claiming that she confessed

20 to this crime.

21

Q

And following Debra's conviction, were you able to

23

22 interview her again?

24

25

A

Yes, I was.

Q

And when was that, do you recall?

A

I sent her a letter to the Maricopa County Jail, and I

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

14

5

Q

And at some point, did you have a conversation with Debra

1 told her that I would like to interview her perhaps the day

2 before she is sentenced by Judge Hendricks. And Ire-informed

3 her that I was the person who interviewed her in the jail and I

4 promised her that I would be fair with her.

Q

Did that interview take place?

6

She called and it was all arranged.

She signed the

A

7

releases.

I came over there with a reporter by the name of

8 John Cane, and a cameraman. And we sat down for about an hour

9 and a half, and asked her questions, and she gave us answers.

10

Q

And without going into any details of that interview, did

11 she continue to deny that she ever confessed to Detective

12 Saldate?

20

21

13

A

Absolutely.

14

Q

At some point, Mr. Huebl, were you contacted by one of

15 Debra's appellate attorneys?

16

A

I'm not sure if he contacted me or if I contacted him, but

17 at that particular point when she was in the appeal process, I

18 was involved with KTVK Channel 3 for this story, and so I

19 believe I contacted Anders Rosenquist.

Q

And do you recall approximately when that was?

23

22 like that.

A

Oh, my gosh, I'm going to guess eight years ago, something

24 Milke's next habeas counselor, Lori Voepel, who is present in

25 the courtroom?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - DIRECT

15

1

A

Yes, I've had a conversation subsequently with Lori

2 Voepel.

3

4 involvement in Debra's case?

Q

And did you inform Ms. Voepel of your interviews and your

5

6 her.

7

A

I informed her, as well as trying to get information from

8 submit an affidavit in Debra's case?

Q

And as a result of those conversations, did you agree to

10

11

12

13

9

A

I did.

Q

And if I can have Mr. Huebl shown Exhibit 20, please.

And are you looking at Exhibit 20, Mr. Huebl?

A

Yes, I am.

15

14 Debra Milke's case?

Q

Is that the affidavit that you submitted to Ms. Voepel in

A

It appears to be the same and I see my notarized

17

16 signature.

18

19

Q

On Page 4, your notarized signature?

A

Yes.

Q

And does that affidavit accurately summarize your

20 interview of Debra, as well as your testimony here today?

21

22

A

Yes, I have no disagreement with this.

24

23 Honor.

MS. NGUYEN:

That's all I have at this time, Your

25 II

THE COURT: Ms. Done?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

16

3

Q

Good morning, Mr. Huebl.

1 CROSS~EXAMINATION

2 BY MS. DONE:

4 pronounce your name?

It's Huebl, is that how you

5

6

7

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

My name is Julie Done, from the Attorney's General's

Office.

Do you remember speaking to me in an interview, a

8 telephonic interview, on December 2nd?

9

10

A

Yes, I do.

Q

Okay. You spoke in your testimony Just now about two

11 interviews that you've done with Debra Milke?

12

13

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

One, right after she was arrested, and perhaps before she

14 was booked at the Jail?

15

16

A

Correct.

Q

And then you talked about another interview that you did

17 with her, I think you said after she was convicted?

20

18

19

A

Yes; yes, ma'am.

Q

And are there any recordings of those interviews?

A

There's a recording of the second interview still in

22

21 existence.

MS. DONE:

Okay. Your Honor, it's our belief that

23 Exhibit 22, which plaintiffs talked about yesterday is a part

24 of recording, and at this time, we would move into evidence

25 Exhibit 22, and would like for the entire tape to be played as

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

17

2

"Yes, Dale. An unthinkable murder according

1 the best evidence of these interviews.

MS. NGUYEN: Your Honor, I believe Exhibit 22 is the

3 diagram that was admitted into evidence.

4

MS. DONE:

I'm sorry, Exhibit 23.

5

MS. NGUYEN:

It would be Exhibit 23, correct. And we

6 have no obJection to the admission of Exhibit 23, and it being

7 played.

8

THE COURT: Where is it?

9

MS. NGUYEN: Vicki has it.

10

MS. DONE: Up from the beginning.

11

THE COURT: 23 may be received and you wish to play

12 it at this time?

13

MS. DONE: Yes, please.

14

THE COURT: You may.

15

(Plaintiff's Exhibit 23 Received)

16

(Beginning of Playing of Recording)

17

"26-year~01d Debra Milke may become only

18

the third woman ever to receive a death

19

sentence in Arizona. Maricopa County Superior

20

Court Judge, Cheryl Hendricks, is expected to

21

sentence Milke tomorrow for the murder of her

22

four~year~old son, Christopher Milke. With us

23

now is our private investigator and reporter,

24

Paul Huebl, to tell us more about the case.

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

18

1

to the back of his head. Officers also found the

to the motives offered by the prosecutor. The

2

young victim was neither loved nor wanted

3

by his mother.

He was an inconvenience.

4

The money from a $5,000 life insurance

5

policy would solve some short~term financial

6

problems. An infatuated gunman hoped to

7

win the favor of the child's mother as a

8

reward for killing this boy.

It was 13

9

months ago when little Christopher Milke

10

was reported missing by his mother's

11

roommate, James Styers.

Styers fabricated

12

a story, telling police that the boy

13

disappeared after using a Metro Center Mall

14

restroom."

15

"'We walked into Sears, went into the restroom

16

there, and when I came out of the stall in the

17

restroom, Christopher was gone, and that was

18

it. ,"

19

"Police questioned a boyhood friend of Styers,

20

Roger Scott.

Scott confessed implicating both

21

Styers and Milke in the murder.

He took police

22

officers to this desert wash near 99th Avenue

23

and Happy Valley Road. The boy's body was found

24

in a fetal position with three gunshot wounds

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

19

1

little evidence was heard by the Jury that linked

murder weapon and a pair of sneakers allegedly

2

worn by Styers.

Scott says he only drove

3

the car and that Styers was the triggerman.

4

Styers was tried, convicted, and sentenced

5

to the gas chamber for his role.

In court,

6

however, Styers testified that Scott was the

7

triggerman and that he only made the phony

8

missing record report because Scott threatened

9

to kill him if he didn't. Roger Scott's trial

10

is now underway in another court and is expected

11

to last several more weeks. News Center 10's John

12

King and I, talked with Milke for over an hour and a

13

half in an exclusive jailhouse interview."

14

"Were you involved in any way or did you give

15

consent to the murder of your son, Christopher?"

16

"No."

17

"Tomorrow night, we will show you this interview

18

and hear Debra Milke's accusation that a Phoenix

19

police detective made up the confession, and it

20

was used against her in court."

21

"Was it Milke's confession really the strongest

22

evidence that was presented to the jury that

23

convicted her?"

24

"That's right, Dale. Other than the confession, very

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

20

1

Florence to get me, or whatever you want to call

Milke directly to this crime."

2

"All right, fascinating story, tragic case, too.

3

Thanks, Paul."

4

"As we reported earlier, a Superior Court Judge

5

sentenced Debra Jean Milke to the gas chamber.

6

Our private investigator and Reporter, Paul Huebl,

7

continues his report now of that exclusive

8

Jailhouse interview with Debra Milke."

9

"News Center 10's John Cain and I, interviewed

10

Debra Milke at the Maricopa County Jail for more

11

than an hour and a half.

It's not the first time

12

I've talked to Milke.

I interviewed her less

13

than 24 hour hours after her arrest. As she

14

did in the earlier interview, Milke still denies

15

any involvement in the murder of her son."

16

"It's been more than a year since Debra Milke

17

was put in Jail for a crime she says she didn't

18

commit.

Her defense, she says Phoenix Police

19

Detective, Armando Saldate made up a confession

20

he used against her in court. The confession

21

was neither tape~recorded nor written by Milke.

22

Unfortunately, only the detective and Milke were

23

present. And only they know what was said."

24

"'I think that before he even came down to

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

21

1

"'When I talked to Jim, he said I'm here and there's

it, I believe that once he heard my name because

2

I was implicated by Roger, I think once he

3

heard my name and this involved a child, and

4

then I was out of Phoenix, I think he knew

5

immediately this would become a big story,

6

you know. And I'm the arresting officer, and

7

I'm going, to ~~ you know, like some kind of

8

hero."

9

"Milke also refuted claims that she was an abusive

10

mother.

'It Just amazes me how people can say that

11

I was so abusive. Well, I was never reported. No

12

one ever tried to take him away from me, you know.

13

I did the best I could with what I had. And that's

14

~~ I mean, I Just did the best I could.'"

15

"Milke detailed her divorce and custody proceedings

16

with the boy's father, Mark Milke."

17

"'I wanted sole custody and restricted supervised

18

visitation because Mark abused drugs and alcohol.

19

I didn't strip him of his parental rights.

I

20

didn't care about money. All I wanted was to make

21

sure Christopher was, you know, protected, you

22

know, legally.'"

23

"She explained her reasons for not searching for

24

Christopher when he was missing."

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

22

1

"Now her hopes are in the appeal process."

people here looking and the security guards were

2

there. And then I didn't have a way to get.

3

That's why I stayed home. The police officers

4

were there. They told me that I needed to be

5

with my family. And I told them that my family

6

lives out of Phoenix. And they said that my phone

7

was tapped, so if they heard anything, I'd be the

8

first to know. So someone volunteered to stay

9

at my apartment and listen for my phone so I

10

could go be with my family. And I left them

11

my dad's name and address and phone number. And

12

I told them, if you have anything ~~ if you've

13

heard anything, or you need to get ahold of me,

14

this is where I'll be. And we left. And it was

15

okay. It's not like I Just ran.'"

16

"Milke just described the two tragedies in her

17

life."

18

"'It's really hard to explain to people what I go

19

through when someone hasn't been through this. I

20

don't have Just one tragedy. I have two, you know

21

and. The first one is the loss of Christopher.

22

And the second one is being charged and going

23

through this legal stuff and being convicted of it on

24

top of it.'"

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

23

1

Interesting story."

"'The only thing really that I have left to hang

2

onto is the higher court, a Court of Appeals.

3

And I Just don't have one time.

I have more;

4

or the Supreme Court.

I feel really positive

5

and optimistic about it. ,,,

6

"We requested an interview with Armando Saldate,

7

who now works as a Justice court constable.

8

Although he declined an on~camera interview, he

9

did say that he stands by his testimony, that he

10

expects Milke to lie in order to save her own

11

neck."

12

"Is it normal police procedure to interview a

13

murder suspect without the use of a tape recorder?"

14

"NO, Dale. Confessions are often obtained in

15

writing or tape~recorded by police. Another

16

alternative is for more than one officer to be

17

present as a witness. None of these things were

18

done here.

It's very interesting that in the

19

confession given earlier, the same day by fellow

20

defendant, Roger Scott, police tape~recorded his

21

statements. Why that wasn't done with Milke,

22

I'm not sure that I know."

23

"It certainly does raise some interesting

24

questions as to why not. Thank you, Paul.

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

24

1

(End of Playing of Recording)

3 BY MS. DONE:

MS. DONE:

Thank you.

2

4

Q

You made some statements in that clip that you we Just saw

5 and then you also Just testified that this ~~ in your opinion,

6 the significant evidence against Debra Milke was Detective

7 Saldate's testimony, correct?

8

A

I'm not ~~ I didn't quite hear you. Could you maybe get

9 closer to the microphone?

10

11

Q

Sure.

A

I have hearing aids, and they're not too terrific, I'll

12 tell you.

13

14

15

Q

Okay.

I'll try to speak a little louder.

In the clip that we Just watched, you made a

statement, and then you also Just testified in court that

I

16 believe you said, in your opinion, the significant evidence

17 against Debra Milke was Detective Saldate's testimony, correct?

20

21

22

23

18

19

A

That's correct.

Q

But you also said that you did attend the trial, correct?

A

Yes, I did.

Q

Were you present for all of Ms. Milke's testimony?

A

Yes, I was.

25

24 the witnesses?

Q

And you were present for other people that testified, all

A

Yes, ma'am.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

25

1

Q

So did you also hear statements made that would be

2 inconsistent with any testimony that Debra Milke wasn't

3 involved?

4

5

6

7

8

9

A

Not that I recall.

Q

Perhaps her reactions to police?

A

I don't -~ I'm not sure what you're

Q

Reactions to family members?

A

Family members? Is there somebody specific?

Q

Do you remember hearing testimony at trial that when her

11

10 stepsister awoke her when she was sleeping in Florence ~~

12

13

14

15

16

17

A

Oh, yeah, I remember

Q

~~ she said, "What the fuck do they want"?

A

I remember her sister's testimony vaguely.

Q

And do you remember that statement?

A

What is ~~ repeat that statement.

Q

That when her sister woke her up ~-

MS. NGUYEN:

Your Honor, I obJect.

It's going beyond

19

18 the scope at this point.

20 BY MS. DONE:

THE COURT:

Overruled. You may answer it.

21

Q

That when her stepsister woke her up in Florence after she

22 had been sleeping and told her that there were sheriff's

23 officers there, her reaction was, "What the fuck do they want?"

25

24 Do you remember that testimony, sir?

A

I remember Sandy saying something along those lines, yes.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

26

1

Q

And do you also remember testimony that she never asked

4

5

7

8

9

12

13

15

16

17

18

19

21

22

23

24

25

2 those sheriff's officers what was going on with her son? She

3 never asked them anything?

A

She may have said that.

I don't recall at this point.

Q

Okay. Were any of those statements included in any of

6 your reports, your news reports regarding this case?

A

Nothing that I had wrote or prepared.

I may have made

notes at the time.

I don't recall.

Q

Okay.

So most of your news reports were focused, as far

10 as her guilt, the significant evidence against her was

11 Detective Saldate's testimony, correct?

A

Well Saldate was, as I could see it, he was the case.

14 was arrested?

Q

Okay. You said you also interviewed her right after she

A

Right after she was arrested, yes, ma'am.

Q

And is there a recording of that interview?

A

There was a recording.

Q

Do you know if it still currently exists?

A

I turned it over to David Howell,

20 the news director of Channel 10, and apparently it has since,

It was not my property.

one, been recycled, disappeared.

I don't know.

Q

Have you tried to obtain a copy after this?

A

Yes, I have.

Q

And you weren't able to?

A

I was not able to.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

27

1

Q

But you do remember some statements from that interview?

A

Oh, yes, ma'am.

2

3

Q

I believe you told me in your interview that Ms. Milke

4 told you that she said, "I told them I wanted an attorney." Do

5 you remember saying that?

6

7

A

Yes, I recall that.

Q

So that's what you recall, as far as her speaking to you

8 about an attorney?

10

9

A

She said that she asked them for an attorney.

She wanted

an attorney.

She had not yet gotten an attorney to visit her.

11 She wanted to know how she could make that happen.

12

13

14

15

16

Q

So she made all those statements to you?

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

Did she tell you when she asked them for an attorney?

A

Well, obviously she ~-

Q

Did she tell you when, without speculating, when she asked

18

17 for an attorney?

A

No, I'm not sure if I know exactly when.

But she Just

20

19 said she told them that she wants an attorney.

Q

So would it surprise you, Mr. Huebl, to know that Debra

21 Milke testified yesterday that regarding an attorney, she only

23

22 told you or asked you, "When can I talk to an attorney?

A

I wouldn't be surprised anything would come up in the

24 testimony, considering where it came from and it wasn't

25 recorded.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

28

1

Exhibit 20, you were shown?

Q

But this was Ms. Milke's testimony yesterday here in

2 court, that I asked her what she said to you regarding an

3 attorney in that December 4th interview ~-

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

and she said, "The only thing I said was, 'When can I

6 talk to a lawyer'''?

7

A

I wouldn't ~- I guess it would surprise me but it's also

8 20 years ago so, you know, although it's a very important

11

10 those first two questions and the answers because they've been

9 event, I think that details like that, you know, I can remember

so repetitive to me that, you know, it's easy.

But to get to

13

12 exact words of, you know, I can at best paraphrase.

Q

So you're saying now you can't recall exactly what she

15

14 said to you?

A

Well, I recall exactly the first two question-and-answers

17

16 that I quoted.

19 I asked for an attorney. When can I see an attorney"? And

20 asking me the process.

18

21

22

Q

But regarding an attorney, sir?

A

Yes. With he attorney, she said, "I wanted an attorney.

Q

Sir --

That's all paraphrased.

I can't give you an exact quote

A

24

23 on that no matter how hard I try.

25

Q

Okay, sir. Thank you.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

29

1

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

Do you still have Exhibit 20 in front of you

2

3

4

5

6

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

~~ your affidavit that was prepared in 2002?

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

Can you please show me in that affidavit where you make

7 statements or under penalty of perJury, regarding her request

8 for an attorney, her statements to you regarding an attorney?

10

9

A

Well, I did not write this affidavit. This was written.

I read it.

I agreed with what it said.

I didn't disagree with

11 what it said.

12

Q

Can you point to any statements in there, sir, regarding

14

13 her request for an attorney?

15

A

Repeat that last question.

Q

Can you point to any statements in your affidavit

17

16 regarding her request for an attorney?

18

19

20

21

A

I would have to read it completely

Q

Please.

A

If you want me to do that, I will, or if you want ~~

Q

Yes.

Apparently the author of the affidavit did not put that in

22 there.

23

24

25

A

Q

But it's your affidavit, correct; you signed it?

A

Oh, I signed it.

I signed it.

I don't disagree with it.

Q

But when you read it, did you not think that was important

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

30

2

A

It was prepared by a lawyer.

1 to include in the affidavit?

3 was necessary to put in.

I think that they knew what

4

5

6

7

8

9

Q

But now you think it's important?

A

Well, if you're asking me about it, I believe it is

important.

Lawyers aren't perfect.

Q

Have you ever been a police officer in Phoenix?

A

No.

Q

And in the clip that we Just watched in court, you talk to

10 the other news reporter, I'm sorry, I didn't catch his name,

11 about an interview being tape~recorded ~~

12

13

A

Q

Are you aware of any procedures in Phoenix regarding

14 tape~recording interviews?

15

A

Well, those have changed over the years.

I do keep up

16 with what the Phoenix Police Department does. And it is up to

17 the last seven, eight years where I spent more time in

18

California, unfortunately, than here.

But I've kept up with it

20

19 and it's been normally a practice when possible, whenever

possible, to tape~record interviews.

So obviously it's very

22

21 important.

Q

Do you know what the procedure or requirement was for

23 tape~recording interviews for the Phoenix Police Department in

25

24 1989?

A

I cannot say that I remember what their operations orders

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

21 the operations orders is very tiny, so I'm kind of challenged.

22 So let me.

12

20

HUEBL ~ CROSS

31

2

THE WITNESS: Now that I've read this, can you repeat

1 that I had read previously, what they say now.

Q

Do you know if there was a requirement for officers to

3 tape~record interviews?

4

A

I, somehow, you know, obviously I think there was ~~ the

5 operations orders suggested that whenever possible to tape it,

6 but sometimes things aren't possible. You do the best you can

7 with what you've got.

8

Q

Thank you.

9

MS. DONE:

Can the witness be shown Exhibit 19,

10 please.

11 BY MS. DONE:

Q

Can you please look through that and at the top where it

13 has revision dates of 10/89, can you please ~-

14 MS. NGUYEN: Your Honor, I'm going to obJect to this

15 line of questioning. Mr. Huebl testified that he's not an

16 expert in the area of policies and procedures back in 1989, nor

17 was he asked that on direct examination.

18

THE COURT:

There was events on direct concerning it.

19 Overruled.

THE WITNESS:

I do have my glasses. This print on

24

23 (Witness reads document)

25 the question that you asked me?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

32

2

1 BY MS. DONE:

Q

Yes. Can you point to a requirement in there that

3 requires Phoenix police department officers to record

4 interviews?

5

A

There's not a requirement to record. There's a

6 requirement to, when they use a tape recorder, to actually

7

preserve that.

But this is operations orders.

It may have

8 been general orders that I was referring to ~~

9

10

11

Q

Thank you, sir.

A

~~ which is different.

Q

Thank you, sir.

12 You said when you interviewed Debra Milke on the

13 night that she was arrested, that she looked you right in the

14 eye, correct?

15 A Yes, ma'am.

16 Q And you also stated that she was sober-looking?

17 A Absolutely.

18 Q And sane~looking?

20

19 A I'm sorry.

21

22

23

24

25

Q

And sane? You said she looked sane?

A

Sane~looking, yes.

Q

You said she looked sane?

A

Yes.

Q

Did she appear intimidated by you?

A

Not by me; no, ma'am.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

33

1

Q

Okay.

2 had on December 22nd, you made the statement "Let's hope

Do you remember at the end of our interview that we

3 whatever is supposed to happen does happen, and we get justice

4 in our system"?

5

6

A

Absolutely.

Q

What did you mean by the statement, "You hope we get

7 Justice in our system"?

8

9

A

Well, that's up to somebody of a higher pay grade than

myself.

I mean, we hope, I think in the criminal Justice

10 system, that the right thing is done; that the guilty are

11 punished, that the innocent are set free, and that's not my

12

determination to make.

But whoever makes that determination, I

13 hope they do that with the best guidance they can. They do

15

14 that under God.

17

16 Ms. Milke?

Q

Do you think your testimony here today will help

19

18 horse in this race.

A

I don't know that it will or it won't.

I don't have a

20

Q

And do you think Ms. Milke is innocent?

A

You ask me if I thought she is innocent.

I am convinced

22

21 she never confessed.

23

24

25

Q

Sir, do you have a website?

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

Is it called Crime Files News.com?

A

Yes, ma'am.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

34

1

MS. DONE:

I'd ask that the witness be shown

2 impeachment Exhibit 57, please.

3

4 BY MS. DONE:

THE WITNESS: Should I open it?

5

Q

Please. And there's two copies in there, if you could

6 hand one to the Judge?

7

8

9

10

A

I'm sorry, ma'am.

Q

There's a copy in there for the Judge?

A

Okay. I'll hand it to him. Your Honor.

Q

If you could look at that and tell me if that looks like

11 something off your website?

12

13

14 2009?

15

16

17

18

19

A

It does.

Q

Do you see an article there dated Monday, October 26,

A

Yes, I do.

Q

Entitled "Wrongful Convictions are a Danger to Liberty"?

A

Yes, ma'am.

MS. NGUYEN: Can I get the page, Julie?

20 article on the front page.

MS. DONE: The very front page. The title of the

22

21 BY MS. DONE:

Q

And on Page 2, the 7th paragraph down, or the 6th

23 paragraph down, the first full paragraph, the 6th, where Debra

25

24 Milke's name is in bold?

A

Okay, yes.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

35

1

Q

Did you write this article?

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

15

16

20

21

22

24

25

A

Did I write the third one?

2

3

4

5

Q

This article?

A

I wrote this article.

Q

Okay. And in reference to that paragraph I'm talking

6 about, can you read that paragraph, please?

A

"Two such high profile cases that I can

think of are Debra Milke, Arizona, and Scott

Peterson, California. Neither of these

condemned prisoners had criminal histories.

These cases both lack evidence and scream for

further investigation."

Q

So, am I safe to assume that the gist of this article is

14 that you believe both of these people are innocent?

A

Well, it's like I said, it deserves further investigation.

I think there is some serious doubt.

I think that the doubt

17 needs to be looked at. And it's like anything, particularly if

18 you're going to kill someone, that by God, you better be sure

19 before you do it.

Q

And the second article that starts on Page 3?

A

Okay.

Q

Dated Tuesday, September 29, 2009, "Entitled Debra Milke

23 May Be Freed from Arizona's Death Row"?

A

Uh~huh.

Q

Did you write that article?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ CROSS

36

1

A

Yes, ma'am.

8

9

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q

And if I could take you to Page, and I apologize some of

2

3

4 5.

5

6

the pages I believe are cut out by the hole punch.

It is Page

A

Page 5, of that article?

Q

Yes. The first paragraph starts with, "I was surprised to

7 hear her say" ~~ have you found that page?

A

Okay, yes.

Q

And the very last paragraph on that page. Can you read

10 that, please?

A

The last paragraph?

Q

Yes.

A

"I've been convinced for 20 years that Debra -~

that Milke never made the confession to anyone.

Armando Saldate had a long history of obtaining

questionable confessions and investigative

dishonesty."

Q

And can you go on to the next page and read the next

19 paragraph, please?

A

"I'm convinced not only was the confession

fabricated by Saldate, that Milke is no more

than a legitimate victim. Milke had found a

new Job at the John Alden Life Insurance Company

across town in Tempe, arranged for daycare for

Christopher, and rented a two~bedroom apartment.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - CROSS/REDIRECT

37

20

1

Specifically, am I to understand that

Styers would no longer have the run of

2

Milke's apartment, the contents of the

3

refrigerator, or the use of her car."

4

Q

So from those two paragraphs, can we assume that you do

5 believe Ms. Milke is innocent, correct?

6

A

Well I think that there's serious doubt that she's

7 innocent.

8

Q

Do you believe Ms. Milke is innocent, Mr. Huebl?

9

Yes, I kind of do.

I really accept that, you know.

A

10 "Innocent" is a legal term under our system.

11

Q

Thank you.

12 And were you present during the interview of

13 Detective Saldate with Ms. Milke?

14

A

NO, I was not. Nobody was.

15

Thank you.

If I could Just have a moment,

MS. DONE:

16 Your Honor.

17

THE COURT: You may.

18

MS. DONE: Your Honor, we have no further questions

19 for this witness.

21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

THE COURT:

Redirect?

23

22 BY MS. NGUYEN:

Q

Mr. Huebl, Ms. Done asked you some questions about what

25

24 you recall during your first interview of Debra immediately

after she was arrested.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

38

1 you specifically recall asking two questions and the specific

2 answers given by Debra, correct?

3

4

5

A

That is correct.

Q

And what were those questions and answers?

A

"Question No.1, did you tell the police that you had

6 anything to do with the death of your son"? The answer was,

7 "Tha t 's crazy. Who told you that? I had nothing to do with

8 the death of my son."

9

10

Q

And then what was the second question?

A

The second question was, "I heard it had something to do

11 with insurance." The answer, "I heard that, too, and that's

12 off the wall."

13

14 and answers verbatim?

Q

And why is that you specifically remember those questions

15

A

Well, because when I had to come back, I had to see it, I

16 had to double-check it and triple-check it before it hit the

17 air, and it's been a topic of conversation and I don't mind

18 saying that this was kind of a very important story to be

19

20 it was right. And I had to remember what it was. And this

working on. And so I had to get it right.

I had to make sure

21 thing has been important apparently for 20 years. And it will

22 be important until however it's resolved.

23

Q

And then the discussion that took place with regard to

24 Debra getting an attorney, did that take place immediately

25 after those questions, or was that later on in this interview?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

39

1

Q

You were also asked about your affidavit, which is Exhibit

A

That was ~~ After those questions, I asked her several

2 other questions. And she quickly throughout this thing about,

3 you know, "How can I get an attorney? I asked for an attorney.

4 What do I got to do? When will one visit me"?

5 Q Was that conversation about an attorney, was that, you

6 know, as you said dubbed and then later aired as those two

7 clips

8

A

We did not show that portion of it. That was, you know,

11

10 couldn't get that whole interview in, in a million years.

9 we took those two big sound bites, time is very precious. We

12 attorney wouldn't be as clear, you're paraphrasing as opposed

Q

And so does that help explain why the conversation with an

14

13 to the first question two questions that were aired?

15

A

I would believe so; yes, ma'am.

Q

And again, you were paraphrasing the conversation about an

17

16 attorney?

19

18 do.

A

Yes. That was a paraphrase, absolutely. That's all I can

20 attorney, she requested an attorney, how can she get an

Q

But you're sure that Debra had told you that she wanted an

22

21 attorney?

24 20. And you testified that your affidavit is, in fact,

23

A

Yes, ma'am, all of those.

25 accurate, correct?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

40

1

It's not set in

A

Yes, ma'am.

2

Q

And that's why you signed it?

3

Absolutely.

If I didn't agree with it,

I wouldn't have

A

4 signed it.

5

Q

Does your affidavit include every single piece of

6 information that you obtained in this case?

7

A

No, ma'am.

8

Q

You were also asked about Phoenix police policies?

9

A

Uh~huh.

10

Q

And I believe you testified that it was your understanding

11 that the general order of the Phoenix Police Department

12 recommended recording. Can you explain that a little bit more?

13

A

Well it's a little fuzzy, you know, because it's been

14 many, many years since I've worked at these things, but it was

15 either in the operations orders, which are prepared by an

16 entity formally known as ALEOAC, now known as POST, Peace

17 Officer Standards and Trainings. That's given to every police

18

agency in the state.

It's a guidebook.

20 which are an absolute, you must do this, this is the procedure.

19 concrete. Then they have, separately from that, general orders

21 So somewhere, I recall, and you know to be absolutely positive,

22 these rules have changed over the years. And for me to mix up

23 a policy from let's say, 1992 with a policy in 1989 is very

24 probable. You know, I could make a mistake, but obviously you

25 know, it's Just like I wanted to record it. This is evidence.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

41

1 Everybody wants to record it, and they should.

2

Q

And you certainly aren't an expert or purport to be an

3 expert in the area of Phoenix Police Department procedures in

4 1989?

7 in front of you?

10 Bates~Stamped, 00933?

5

6

8

9

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A

Oh, absolutely not.

Q

In taking you back to Exhibit 19, do you still have that

A

19, I have it in front of me now.

Q

If I could have you look at the last page, it's

A

Uh~huh; yes, ma'am.

Q

And Paragraph No. 22, where it says, "Tape Recordings"?

A

Right.

Q

Are you there?

And can you read that paragraph?

A

Yes, that's the same paragraph that appears throughout

this thing.

It says,

"When officers tape~record an interrogation

or interview with a suspect, witness or victim,

in the course of investigation the tapes must

be preserved for trial by impounding them in

police property. The DR, that's for

Departmental Report, must make reference to the

use of the tape recorder, the substance of the

information contained on the tape, and when the

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

42

1

tape was impounded. The tapes need to be

preserved even if the contents of the tape

are transcribed."

Q

And would you ~~ does that paragraph suggest that at least

2

3

4

5 tape recordings of interrogation or interviews with a suspect

6 were done back in 1989?

7

8 Scott.

9

A

Of course they were done. They were done with Styers and

10 that was October 1989?

Q

And the date of this page at the top right~hand corner,

12

11

13

A

I'm sorry, where

Q

At the top right corner of that same page?

A

Of that same page.

Let me go to that same page. Yes,

14 10/89; yes, ma'am.

15

Q

So that would have been in effect during Debra Milke's

16 interrogation in December of '89?

17

18

A

Certainly, it would.

Q

And as you said before, both interrogations of Scott and

20

19 Styers were recorded?

21

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

You were also referred to Exhibit 57 by Ms. Done and asked

22 several questions about your website and statements you've

24

23 specifically made about Debra Milke's case?

25

A

Yes, ma'am.

Q

Does that in any way change the fact of the two interviews

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

12

20

21

22

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

43

2

Please

1 that you conducted with Debra Milke?

A

No, ma'am.

3

Q

And again those two interviews were, in fact, recorded?

4

A

Yes, ma'am.

5

Q

And we Just saw a video, and in that video you say, and

6 you reiterate that Debra Milke always denied, in fact,

7 immediately after her arrest that she confessed; is that right?

8

A

Yes, ma'am.

9

MS. NGUYEN:

I have no further questions.

10

THE COURT:

You may step down, sir. You're excused

11 and

THE WITNESS: Am I excused?

13

THE COURT: ~- free to leave.

14

MS. DONE:

Excuse me, Your Honor, we would Just ask

15 to open recross, and to address a couple of questions she asked

16

in redirect.

It's very limited.

17

I normally end with Redirect.

Is there

THE COURT:

18 some surprise here that you didn't expect?

19

MS. DONE: That's fine, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What's the subJect area?

MS. DONE: Regarding Roger Scott and James Styers,

24

23 question regarding that. Would you like me

interviews, as far as them being recorded.

She asked a

THE COURT: All right.

I'll limit to that.

25 have a seat again, sir.

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

HUEBL - RECROSS

44

1

MS. DONE:

Your Honor, it's an impeachment exhibit.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

2

MS. DONE: I'll be very brief, Your Honor.

3

THE COURT: And you can have redirect if necessary.

4

MS. NGUYEN: Thank you, Judge.

5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

6 BY MS. DONE:

7

Q

You talked about Roger Scott and James Styers' interviews.

8 You said at least one of Roger Scott's interview was recorded,

9 correct?

10

A

Yes, ma'am.

11

Q

Do you know if they obJected to the recording?

12

A

I don't recall reading that or hearing that; no, ma'am.

13

Q

And James Styers?

14

A

NO, ma'am.

I don't recall that.

15

Q

So you don't know if they obJected to having the interview

16 recorded?

17

I don't recall any such passage.

It may have been made.

A

18 I Just don't recall it.

19

MS. DONE:

Okay. And Your Honor, we would also move

20 for admission of Exhibit 57 into evidence. Thank you.

21

THE COURT: Any obJection to Exhibit 57?

22

I would object.

I was Just handed a

MS. NGUYEN:

23

copy of Exhibit 57, Your Honor.

I haven't even had an

24 opportunity to review it in its completeness.

25

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

20 I don't have a clue.

12

21

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

45

1

Q

And in your experience as a police officer, did you record

MS. NGUYEN:

I still need an opportunity to review it

2 before it's admitted, Judge.

3

MS. DONE: And Your Honor, Mr. Huebl did not deny

4 that he's the author and that that is his website.

5 THE COURT: I'll let you look it over and then I'll

6 make a determination. You can do so at the break between this

7 testimony and the next witness.

8

Do you have any questions in light of what was

9 raised?

10

MS. NGUYEN:

I Just have a couple follow~up, if I

11 may?

THE COURT: You may.

13

MR. NGUYEN: Thank you.

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MS. NGUYEN:

16

Q

Mr. Huebl, do you know if Roger Scott was asked if his

17 interrogation could be recorded?

18

I have no recollection whether he was or wasn't.

A

He may

19

have been.

I Just don't

I may have heard it 20 years ago.

Q

And do you know if Jim Styers was asked if his

23

22 interrogation could be recorded?

24

A

Same thing, same answer.

25 a suspect or a witnesses interview without their permission?

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

1

HUEBL ~ REDIRECT

46

A

I can't imagine not interviewing a suspect without

2 recording. My God.

3

4

5

6

Q

And you also know that it can be recorded surreptitiously?

A

Of course, I have no problem.

Q

So without the suspect's knowledge?

7 Debra Milke.

A

We have no problem. I surreptitiously taped-recorded

24 57. I have had an opportunity to review it during the break.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

Q

And police officers are also able to do that?

A

They do it all the time.

MS. NGUYEN: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
THE WITNESS: Am I excused now, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You are, sir. Let's take 15 minutes now. Is the other witness

here?
MS. NGUYEN:
THE COURT:
MS. NGUYEN:
MS. DONE:
THE DEPUTY:
(Recess)
THE COURT:
MS. VOEPEL: The other witness is here, Your Honor.

15 minutes, please.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All rise.

Please be seated. Your next witness.

Judge, if I may, we can address Exhibit

25 And I believe both parties have agreed ~~ we have no obJection

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

47

1 to its submission but we've agreed to Just remove pages 7

MS. VOEPEL: Yeah, I think it's hole~ ~-

2 through 23 which don't include any articles.

3 THE COURT: I'm looking for the page number and I

4 really don't find it. It seems to say page ~~ oh, wait a

5 minute. It's

13 How does it start out so I can -~

15 the remaining ~~ on the next page there's some ~-

20 is page 23, we've agreed to Just remove those from the exhibit.

21 In other words everything from page 7 on?

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

16

17

18

19

24

25

THE COURT: Because that's where the hole is, isn't

it?
MS. VOEPEL:
THE COURT:
MS. VOEPEL:
then 7 starts
THE COURT:
MS. VOEPEL: Right. I apologize for that.

Okay. So what page is 7? What's

So, we'll include pages 1 through 6 and

THE COURT: That's page 7?
MS. VOEPEL: Correct.
THE COURT: And from then on through
MS. VOEPEL: All the way through the last page which THE COURT:
MS. VOEPEL:
THE COURT:
MS. DONE:
THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor.

The Clerk will split the exhibit into 57A

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

LEO ~ DIRECT

48

7

A

I'm currently a professor of law at the University of San

1 and B. 57A will constitute pages 1 through 6. B shall be page

2 7 through the balance of the exhibit. 7A (sic) is received.

3 Or 57A is received.

4 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 57A Received)

5 Thank you, Your Honor.

MS. VOEPEL:
MS. DONE:
THE COURT:
MS. VOEPEL:
THE CLERK: Sure. You may call your next witness.

8

Plaintiff calls Professor Richard Leo.

9

Remain standing.

10

RICHARD LEO, PETITIONER'S WITNESS, SWORN

11

THE CLERK: Thank you. Please have a seat. Speak

12 into the microphone.

24 Francisco. I've also been a professor of criminology and

20

21

22

23

13

THE WITNESS: Okay.

14

THE CLERK: Thank you.

15

MR. KIMERER: Could you please give Dr. Leo Exhibits

16 5, 6 and 7?

17

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION

19 BY MR. KIMERER:

Q

Dr. Leo, would you please state your full name?

A

Richard Angelo Leo. Last name is spelled L~E~O.

Q

And tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do?

25 psychology and sociology prior to that at the University of

AVTranz

E-Reporting and E-Transcription

Phoenix (602) 263-0885 • Tucson (520) 403-8024 Denver (303) 634-2295

You're Reading a Free Preview

Descarregar
scribd
/*********** DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE ! ************/ var s_code=s.t();if(s_code)document.write(s_code)//-->