Chavrusohfest Source Sheet B

Pro-Employment Sources Find Someone with Source Sheet A Have A Chavrusoh With Them e!ate and En"oy T#eves Beis $edrash Chavrusohfest $osheves Ha$edinoh Second Session %&'%
All Complaints and Accusations (f Heresy Should Be irected To A)iva Weisin*er

What is +ollel,
A kollel is an institute for full-time, advanced study of the Talmud and rabbinic literature. Like a yeshiva, a kollel features shiurim (lectures) and learning sedarim (learning sessions); unlike a yeshiva, the student body of a kollel are all married men. Kollels generally ay a regular monthly sti end to their members. The first !kollel! in the "e#ish dias ora #as the Kovno Kollel, the modern sense of the term, the !Kollel $erushim! founded in Kovno in %&''. (t #as founded by )abbi *israel +alanter, and directed by )abbi (saac ,laser. The ten students #ere re-uired to se arate from their families, e.ce t for the +abbath, and devote themselves to studying for the )abbinate. There #as a four year limit on one/s membershi in the kollel. T#o eo le can be considered to have s earheaded the kollel hiloso hy and outgro#th in today/s #orld )abbi Aharon Kotler, the founder of ,eth 0edrash 1ovoha, America/s largest yeshiva located in Lake#ood, 2e# "ersey, and )abbi 3la4ar +hach, one of the most rominent leaders of the "e#ish community in (srael until his death in 566%. The community kollel movement #as also fostered by Torah 7mesorah, the 2ational +ociety for 8ebre# 9ay +chools. :urrently, the term is a lied in America to any sti end given for yeshiva study and is no# a general term for the yeshivah a roach to life. 3ven those engaged in outreach #ork, teaching, or administration can be said to be !in kollel! as long as they are financially de endent on a yeshivah. The uni-ue hiloso hy of the kollel, in #hich members are subsisting entirely on su ort from others, is art of an overall hiloso hy of ;rthodo. "udaism, that 1od meant "e#s to rimarily occu y themselves in this #orld #ith the study of Torah, and gave certain "e#s more of a ro ensity to #ork #ith the intention that they should su ort the /learners/. (n orthodo. "udaism this has become kno#n as the /(ssachar-<ebulun/ artnershi , after the first recorded relationshi of this sort in the ,ible, #here "acob on his deathbed instructs a more businessinclined brother to su ort his studious sibling (ssachar. The re#ard of the su orter is seen to be ro ortionate, for e.am le in an ideal artnershi (=6>=6 division of the money) the business artner is considered to have an e-ual ortion in the learner/s ?orld-To-:ome earned by his studying.

Torah She-Baal Peh Sources

'. Pir)ei Avos/ 012
<G @8:< ;A H<E ;C@4 >:@>387 5:7; <<A A3A FG7 =A4 57DE< =7856 ;<7 =A4 <8C@A< A5B? =>?@ <; 5:7; 6789 345 =<7?A J: 733E <B7I A57@ 3548: AIAIA1 Ka!!i T#ado) used to say1 o not ma)e the Torah a crown with which to a**randi#e yourself/ nor use it as a spade with which to di*. As Hillel used to say1 He who ma)es worldly use of the crown of the Torah shall perish. Thus you may infer that any one who eLploits the words of the Torah removes himself from the world of life. What application does this $ishna have to the +ollel model descri!ed a!ove,

%. Brachos M2!
. ,J4@GG =3548 <7G3 /F3D: APA A57@A 5DN >7:3 ;< O-; ?>7A3O 15:;I> 3D< - 5:7< 87:<@ A: - /FIC8 @DN;7 1JI45 7I@

@?>4 >57E =8; 5>D; 15:7; 3E73 J4 J7?:> 345 R<;?:>3 345 3548 /Q5; F58 CAI: JA4 CAIA - FIC8 @DN;7 15:7< 87:<@ J:P4 1;<; ,A3<? ;A@ A: A57@ /E75A @?>4 A57P7 /A>38 @?>4 >87 /A5396 @?>4 59767 /A?35P @?>4 ?57P7 /A>35E J:P47 .-7C7 =GI;9 7?57 =35P 78:?7 O;SN 7A3?>3O 15:;I> /=35E; 383 <? @3>?I J@G;<: - =76: <> 7I795 J3>7? <;5>3> ;<; /87? ;<7 RFIC8 @DN;7 O;S3 =3548O 15:;I> /J:9? 383 <? @3>?I J@G;<: - =76: <> 7I795 J3>7? <;5>3 J3;> A@<?7 - <;?:>3 345G 7>? A45A 1334; 5:; .-7C7 F437; @; @84?7 OESG =3548O 15:;I> /J83 <? @3>?I =35E; @G;<:> /3;:6 7PE@@ ;< 35>@ 3:7347 JN3I 3:734 /7G33I3: ;@7B:4 1JI45< ;45 7A< 5:; .J834 A@<? ;<7 - 3E73 J4 J7?:> 345G /J834 ;<> A;57 ;4 13;?<; 3454 A87A3 345 =7>: JIE73 345 5:; AIE 54 54 A45 5:; .;@> ;<7G 7G33I7P:4 785B@ ;<8 3G3A 3G =3I75E;A @7578 /J834 A:336@I 7P7 7P - 3;5? J@G;<:7 ?46 J@57@ 7>? =3I7>;5A @7578 /=3I75E;A @7578 =3I7>;5A @7578G J834 A:336@I ;< 7P7 7P - 3;5? J@57@7 ?46 J@G;<: 7>?>. (ur Ka!!is tau*ht1 And you shall *ather in your *rain. 13 What is to !e learnt from these words, Since it says/ 14 -This !oo) of the law shall not depart out of your mouth/- T mi*ht thin) that this in"unction is to !e ta)en literally. Therefore it says/ -And you shall *ather in your *rain-/ which implies that you are to com!ine the study of Torah with a worldly occupation. This is the view of K. Uishmael. K. Shimon !ar Uohai says1 Ts that possi!le, Tf a man plows in the plowin* season/ and sows in the sowin* season/ and reaps in the reapin* season/ and threshes in the threshin* season/ and winnows in the season of wind/ what is to !ecome of the Torah, VoR !ut when Tsrael perform the will of the Almi*hty/ their wor) is performed !y others/ as it says. And stran*ers shall stand and feed your floc)s. etc.15/ and when Tsrael do not perform the will of the Almi*hty their wor) is carried out !y themselves/ as it says/ And you shall *ather in your *rain. Vor is this all/ !ut the wor) of others also is done !y them/ as it says. And you shall serve your enemy etc. Said A!aye1 $any have followed the advice of Uishmael/ and it has wor)ed wellR others have followed K. Shimon !. Uohai and it has not !een successful. Ka!a said to the Ka!!is1 T would as) you not to appear !efore me durin* Vissan and Tishri so that you should not !e anLious a!out your food supply durin* the rest of the year. Ka!!ah !. Bar Hanah said in the name of K. Uohanan/ reportin* K. Wudah !. Tla-i1 See what a difference there is !etween the earlier and the later *enerations. The earlier *enerations made the study of the Torah their main concern and their ordinary wor) su!sidiary to it/ and !oth prospered in their hands. The later *enerations made their ordinary wor) their main concern and their study of the Torah su!sidiary/ and neither prospered in their hands. '. What does this Xemara have to do with the +ollel system, What values are !ein* evaluated here, %. What is the si*nificance of A!aye-s statemement, M. Ts this Xemara '&&Y anti-)ollel, As) your chavruta what he thin)s of it.

M. Bava Batra ''&a

,;3A ;<7 ;>:: P!?< @54N ;7A7 .@7354< F5B93 <;7 P!?< 7:9? =8; 53G>3 =<7?< @;4; 34; @34: 3I<476: FG ,JA< 5:; 7< A5P> A874? - P!? ;<; He said to them/ this T have received from the house of my father-s father1 A man should always hire himself out to idol worship and not !e dependent on others. Keally, Tdol Worship, Vot really/ rather Avoda Zara- Wor) that is forei*n to him. What does this !rayta say a!out the value of !ein* self-sufficient,

0. +iddushin %[a
@7BN3< 78:<: 7<3;G /;<; ,8SN @7BN3< .@7BN3< 78:<: - @7I:7; 7I4 @; 8:<: 7I3;> <G 15:7; A87A3 345. Ka!!i Uehuda says1 Anyone who does not teach his son a "o!/ teaches him ro!!ery. Keally, Ko!!ery,

Kather/ as if he tau*ht him ro!!ery. '. Why mi*ht this !e true, What does this say a!out !ein* self-sufficient/ rather than dependent, %. What does this have to do with the )ollel system,
There are some statements by Chazal which have recently been challenged by people who claim to be Orthodox Jews. These people don't come out explicitly and declare Chazal to have been mistaken but they do make it very clear by their policies that they are disputing Chazal. They seem to think that Chazal were wrong or that the social conditions o! our time have made Chazal's declarations obsolete or that when Chazal made blanket statements they intended there to be numerous exceptions. This is very disturbing. There is no reason not to think that Chazal were correct in these cases. "urthermore recent evidence clearly shows that Chazal were indeed correct. # am re!erring to the !ollowing statements o! Chazal$ %&hoever does not teach his son a trade... it is as though he has taught him to steal.% '(iddushin )*a+ %,ny Torah that is not accompanied by work will end in neglect -o! Torah. and will lead to sin.% ',vos )$)+ /et in most parts o! the Charedi world they act otherwise. ,!ter all o!!icial educational policy is not to teach their children a trade and not to accompany the study o! Torah with work. They clearly demonstrate that they do not believe these words o! Chazal to be true. 0ut Chazal were correct1 "rom the graves o! these giants o! wisdom and purity emerges the truth that can never be repudiated by the midgets o! our generation. 2e3ain leharher achar divrei ha4emara. These rules o! which Chazal spoke rest not upon transient psychological behavioral patterns but upon permanent ontological principles rooted in the very depths o! the human personality which is as changeless as the heavens above. #t is based not upon sociological !actors5 it is an existential !act. #t was true in anti6uity5 it is still true and it will be true a thousand years !rom now. ,nd the !acts prove it.7 -Rabbi Natan Slifkin

Source \0 (n Sheet A
What halacha is the mishna comin* to teach,

Kishonim
2.Kam!am Hilchos Talmud Torah M1[-'&
57;: A4G7 A57@A @; AP47 =>A @; <<E AP 35A A689A J: NI5D@37 AG;<: A>?3 ;<7 A57@4 67N?3> 74< <? =3>:A <G 3548: AIAIA <G =3:GE 75:; /APA =<7?4 A57@ 3548: @7IA3< 57N;> 3D< /;4A =<7?A J: 733E <BI7 7:9?< A?5 =5C7 @8A @; 47A; 75:;7 779 87?7 /JA4 57DE< =7856 ;<7 JA4 <8C@A< A5B? =>?@ <; 75:;7 779 87?7 /=<7?A J: 733E <BI A57@ @7354A @; =BN<: ;A3> AP =8; H7N7 /J7? @557C7 A<3B4 AD7N AG;<: A:? J3;> A57@ <G7 @7I45A @; ;I>7 AG;<:A. APA =<7?4> A47B7 874G <G< AG7P AP47 /;3A =3I7>;5A =383NE @8:7 /7383 A>?:: NI5D@: ;7A> 3:< ;3A A<78C A<?: 47B 7<7G> ;4A =<7?< F< 47B7 APA =<7?4 F35>; F< 47B7 F35>; <G;@ 3G F3DG ?3C3 5:;I> ;4A =<7?<7. (ne who sets his *oal to involve himself in Torah and not en*a*e in wor)/ and to !e supported !y

t#eda)ah/ desecrates Xd]s Vame/ dis*races the Torah/ eLtin*uishes the li*ht of reli*ion and causes evil for himself and removes his life from the neLt world/ for one may not !enefit from words of Torah in this world. The sa*es said1 (ne who !enefits from words of Torah removes his life from the world. They further instructed/ ^ o not ma)e them a crown in which to !e elevated or a !lade with which to di*._ They further instructed/ ^`ove wor) and hate authority/_ and/ ^All Torah that does not include wor) with it will !e nullified and will lead to sin/ and in the end one will !ecome a !andit._ There is a *reat level in supportin* one]s self with the wor) of one]s hands/ and this was the trait of the early pious ones/ and throu*h this one merits all honor and *oodness in this world and the neLt/ as it is written/ ^When you eat the la!or of your hands/ you are fortunate and it is *ood for you._ Uou are fortunate in this world/ and it is *ood for you in the neLt world/ which is entirely *ood. '. oes Kam!am !elieve in a Uissachar-Zevulun Kelationship,

%. What concerns does the Kam!am have a!out such an arran*ement, Are such concerns !orne out !y the current reality, M. Are Torah Scholars allowed to accept any money/ accordin* to the Kam!am, a. Plato/ The Apolo*y Socrates1 As little foundation is there for the report that T am a teacher/ and ta)e moneyR that is no more true than the other. Althou*h/ if a man is a!le to teach/ T honor him for !ein* paid. There is Xor*ias of `eontium/and Prodicus of Ceos/ and Hippias of Elis/ who *o the round of the cities/ and are a!le to persuade the youn* men to leave their own citi#ens/ !y whom they mi*ht !e tau*ht for nothin*/ and come to them/ whom they not only pay/ !ut are than)ful if they may !e allowed to pay them. What is Plato-s attitude towards people who char*e for teachin*, $i*ht this have influenced the Kam!am,

b. Shu-t HaKosh/ '21c F; ,=3<B4 =35484 6N?@A< A<B4: 7I3;7 83:@ A57@4 AC7A7 ,3;5? 7@G;<:7 ?46 7@57@ A>7?7 ,7@7I:7; 7@57@> E!@ <G J7? @557C7 A<B4 AD7N AG;<: A:? J3;> A57@ <G7 ,Q5; F58 =? @!@ AD3 3G .7@47E ;3A 7P 3G ,7@NI5D 35E; 57PE<. Any Talmid Chacham whose Torah is his "o!/ and ma)es his Torah his main concern and his wor) his temporary concern/ and involves himself in Torah constantly and does not waste time involvin* himself in worthless matters/ !ut still ta)es time to earn a livelihood for this is his o!li*ation. For *reat is the learnin* of Torah with derech eretz/ and any Torah that is not accompanied !y wor) will eventually cause idleness and !rin* a!out sin. What does the Kosh ta)e for *ranted a!out any Talmid Chacham,

Sources b and c on Sheet A

What *roups of people are the +esef $ishna and the Tash!et# tal)in* a!out, Are those the same people that are in +ollel, oes that matter,

Acharonim
c.$aharsha Chiddushei A**ados/ Brachos M2!
A:A =3B?:8 ;<; =35E; 3S? @3>?I J:9? @G;<:> 7A4 =376:8 =357:C =36389 >3 3;878 >5D< A;5I .-7G 3S5G 7>? A45A =A J3B?7:8 J73G7 3I47 3I; =A =3I> =; -7G H<; =; =3B?7: =A7 A33<? 3I4 3@3;5 d1A:e A45?7 4<7< -D4 A3D7C 3S4>5 5:;8G ;7A ;:>8 3I; 57:C 6389> =35E; 3S? @3>?I 3@G;<:> 3D< <<G AG;<: A>7? 3I3;> 5:7< AP <? F7:N< =8; <G< J3; GSG ;<7 3S4>5G 7>? A45A7 =357:C =36389 JI3; =<7? 4758 J834 A@<?7 <;?:>3 345G 7>? A45A >SP7 57:C 6389 7I3;7 A?7B 83@?< <4; -7G AG;<: A:? J3;> A57@ <G7 -7G ;S8 =? @S@ AD3 7I3I>> 7:G7 3S4>5G =357:C =36389 JI3; =475> 3D< -7G 7C7 =GI;9 7?57 =35P 78:?7 7I4 =3763 -7C7 =36389 =<7G F:?7 5:;I>^$any did li)e Ka!!i Uishmael_ et al. Tt seems that definitely there are complete t#addi)im that their wor) will !e done !y others/ eLcept they are very few/ as Kash!i himself says in pere) `ulav f-Aravah/ d02!e/ ^T have seen worthy men and they are few/ if a thousand...if two/ its me and my son_/ and since they are so few/ not every person should rely on it to say that T won-t do any wor)/ !ecause my wor) will !e done !y others/ !ecause T am a complete t#addi)/ !ecause may!e he-s mista)en/ and is no complete t#addi)/ and this is what it means when it says many did li)e Ka!!i Uishmael and did well/ !ecause most of the world isn-t completely ri*hteous/ and many did li)e Kash!_i and did not/ et al./ !ecause most of them were not completely ri*hteous/ and similarly we teach/ *reat is learnin* Torah with derech eret# et al/ and all Torah that does not have with it wor)/ et al. But in the future/ it says ^your nation will !e all ri*hteous_ will !e fulfilled throu*h us/ and stran*ers will come and shepherd your sheep '. %. To the $aharsha/ what is the meanin* of source %, What would the $aharsha say a!out the current situation, Why,

[.+ollel is Vot Always Forever

By Jonathan Rosenblum/ on ecem!er 'Mth/ %&&[

gEditor]s note1 Ka!!i Kosen!lum ori*inally su!mitted this as a comment/ respondin* to one reader]s feed!ac) to an earlier piece. This piece is too valua!le to allow it to *o unnoticed to the many of our readers who do not loo) at the Comments section. At my su**estion/ therefore/ we are pu!lishin* it as a stand-alone su!mission.h $ore than anythin* T]m saddened !y the comment of +ollelXuyinEU. Pro!a!ly !ecause T can visuali#e him writin* with a feelin* of self-ri*hteous virtue that he has defended the honor of the *edolei Torah. He has not. +ollelXuy seems to thin) that !ecause he has not seen a front-pa*e announcement in Uated Ve]eman that it is now permitted to wor) that the eLalted fi*ures he mention !elieve that every yungeman must stay in )ollel indefinitely. T would start the other way1 Have you ever heard of a yungeman who went to one of the fi*ures mentioned and told him i We have no food on the ta!leR my wife is !rea)in* downR our shalom bayis is a wrec) !ecause of fi*htin* over moneyR or "ust that he feels that he is sta*natin* after many years in )ollel/ with no prospect of any )ind of position in si*ht j who was told that he should nevertheless continue in )ollel no matter what, T suspect that T]m a !it older than +ollelXuy/ and T can say that T have never heard of such a case/ and T have heard of plenty of the opposite. Tmmediately after the War/ there were those who were ur*ed to stay in )ollel/ even when their chances of success in learnin* full-time or possi!ility of satisfaction were sli*ht. Tn a well-)nown story/ Kav Aharon +otler told a father who complained that it had !een o!vious from the start that his son was not suited to )ollel1 We are in a war/ and in a war there are always casualties. The war was one to esta!lish the le*itimacy of lon*-term )ollel learnin*. And/ as Kav $attisiyahu Solomon declared already years a*o/ that war has !een won. Casualties after the !attle has !een won are a different matter. As the old Uiddish sayin* has it/ ^Even the !a)er *oes to war/ !ut when the war is over the !a)er is a*ain a !a)er._ Tn a similar vein/ the Cha#on Tsh is also widely reported to have said that two *enerations of full-time learnin* were necessary to re!uild from the ashes of Europe. Those two *enerations have now come and *one. And if +ollelXuy as)s/ so why no announcements in Uated Ve]eman/ T suspect he already )nows the answer/ or should. (ri/ a non-(rthodoL Wew in Austin/ TeLas/ )nows it1 The last thin* the *edolei HaTorah want to do is destroy the strivin* for *reatness in Torah learnin* that characteri#es the Tsraeli chareidi community. And any such pu!lic announcement would !e interpreted as a statement that everythin* we did/ everythin* we have !uilt over the last siLty years was a mista)e. dT emphasi#ed in ^`ivin* with CompleLity_ that "ust the opposite is the case.e Tn other words/ it would lead to an overreaction more dan*erous than the situation it sou*ht to cure. There is another reason that there will !e no such pu!lic statements. Any such statement would !e met with vicious attac)s !y the ^)enaim/_ who would say a!out the *adol in kuestion precisely what +ollelXuy as)s me1 Who are you, The Cha#on Tsh did not say what you are sayin*R Kav Shach did not say it._ Perhaps +ollelXuy remem!ers the attac)s on one of the Sa*es he mentions for his tacit support of Vahal Chareidi. dEven Kav Shach used to say that he was afraid of the stone-throwers.e (ne of the mem!ers of the $oet#es Xedolei HaTorah of the lnited States told me recently that the *edolim cannot even discuss kuestions surroundin* poverty !ecause if they did the ^street_ would "ust la!el them fa)e *edolim. T do not )now if +ollelXuy is the same person who called me the ni*ht !efore +ollelXuy]s comment went up to as) me why T]m a*ainst )ollelim. But T suspect he is. That kuestion is founded on a mista)e and misses the point. Both my married sons learn in )ollel/ one of them in a ten-year dayanus )ollel/ and T hope and pray that my other five sons will learn many *ood years in )ollel as well. T also learned '% years in )ollel. T was not writin* primarily a!out what ou*ht to !e/ !ut what is. Perhaps/ as a chutznik/ +ollelXuy is unaware of the eLplosion over the last five years of trainin* pro*rams j !oth academic de*rees and non-academic j for chareidi men. Chan*es are ta)in* place/ and that is part of the reality with which the *edolim are wrestlin*. Vor are the reasons too hard to discern/ especially when one remem!ers that there are no historical precedents for a Torah society !uilt around the ideal of full-time learnin* for every man forever j an entire society of Ka!i Shimon Bar Uochai]s. dThe num!er of those learnin* full-time in Eret# Uisrael dwarfs !y many times the num!ers of those doin* so in pre-war Europe.e The deni*ration of ^wor)in*_ that one sometimes hears in the Torah community in Eret# Uisrael has scant support in the Torah/ and countless sources refutin* it i e.*./ ^Better to T also suspect that +ollelXuy does not have too many economic worries and that his children are still youn*. Tn short/ he has little first-hand )nowled*e of the situation of thousands of yun*eleit in Eret# Uisrael. T]m not sure whether he feels he is not allowed to thin) or "ust not allowed to pas)en. But T wonder how he would answer some or all of the followin* kuestions1

d'e o you thin) there are any differences of )ind/ not "ust ma*nitude/ !etween the homo*eneous *roup of idealists who rallied to the Cha#on Tsh]s !anner and today]s chareidi community of three-kuarters of a million nefashos, d%e o you have any idea of the de*ree of poverty in the chareidi world/ includin* amon* avreichim, o you see the chareidi world today as vulnera!le, What/ for instance/ would happen if the Tsraeli Supreme Court ruled definitively that the state cannot fund schools that do not teach a common curriculum, Tsraeli welfare payments have *rown twice as fast as *ross family income over the last two decades. What do you thin) the impact would !e if the Tsraeli *overnment decided that disparity is unsustaina!le and imposed another dramatic cut in welfare payments/ li)e the cut in child care allowances under Prime $inister Sharon dwith Vetanyahu as Finance $inistere, dMe o you see any cost to traditional Torah family structure from the assumption that the wife will !e !oth the primary !readwinner and primary care*iver to very lar*e families, o you thin) most women are capa!le of sustainin* !oth roles, d0e o you thin) the Xemara )new what it was tal)in* a!out when it said that the primary source of marital strife is the lac) of money, o you see poverty havin* an impact on shalom !ayis in the Torah community, d2e What do you thin) happens to a eleven-year-old who is already stru**lin* and fallin* !ehind in cheder when he as)s his father what he is *oin* to !e when he *rows up and his father tells him his only option is to !e an avreich, dae Ts there any point at which the communal cost in terms of drop-outs and !ro)en families is too *reat to !e sustained without !ein* addressed at its core,

Kead more1 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2009/12/13/ ollel-is-not-alwa!s-"orever/#i$%%22&u't0!(

En"oy Uour `earnin*m