Kachkar Policeinterview

ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RICHARD KACHKAR BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT DANIEL NIELSEN (5809) AND DETECTIVE MARY VRUNA (7164)
ON 25TH, JANUARY, 2011, AT 10:01 HOURS
Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN:
Alright? Okay?
Detective Mary VRUNA:
Ya (UI)
NIELSEN:
Its Tuesday, January 25th of 2011. The time right now is 10:01 a.m.; I'm Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5-8-0-9 of the Toronto Police Service Homicide Squad. Im in room B029 of Maplehurst Correctional Institute with my partner, Detective Mary VRUNA , spelled V-R-U-N-A, badge 7-1-6-4. Ah, we have asked to see inmate Richard Esbar KACHKAR, spelled KA-C-H-K-A-R. Ah, security officers Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES have gone to get him from the medical wing of the Institute.
MALE:
Well, there's a cell unit I would have taken normally but ah they got him in the shower.
NIELSEN:
Hes in the shower?
MALE:
Hes in the shower and so.
NIELSEN:
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Okay.
Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR
ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RICHARD KACHKAR BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT DANIEL NIELSEN (5809) AND DETECTIVE MARY VRUNA (7164) ON 25TH, JANUARY, 2011, AT 10:01 HOURS
MALE:
Were gonna (sic) be delayed by a few minutes.
NIELSEN:
A few minutes?
MALE:
Yeah. 5 or 10 minutes or however long it takes him to have a shower and get dried off and get clothed and so.
NIELSEN:
So okay. Well, well wait.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
MALE:
Was in the shower - -
NIELSEN:
Sure.
MALE:
- - as we speak and when we walked in.
VRUNA:
Okay, do you want to re-start?
MALE:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Okay and just maybe the time again?
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NIELSEN:
Yeah and we've been told the inmate ah Mr. KACHKAR is in the shower and were gonna (sic) be delayed.. So we're gonna (sic) off the recording at ah 10:03 a.m.
MALE:
I wasnt expecting that (UI)
NIELSEN:
Ya we (UI) that that has to be turned off.
VRUNA:
Oh, sorry.
(Tape stopped) (01:48mins)
VRUNA:
Okay, were going.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Were on video and um and were being recorded again and ah it's Tuesday, January 25th 2011 and the time right now is 10 - 10 a.m. and we're at the Maplehurst Correctional Institute; room B029 which is the Halton Police Liaison Team Office. We're in the main office. I'm Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, badge 5-8-0-9. My surname is spelled N-I-E-L-S-EN. Present with me here is my partner, Detective Mary VRUNA, badge 7-1-6-4 and the spelling is V-R-U-N-A and were with the Homicide Squad. We have asked to see inmate Richard Esbar KACHKAR , spelled K-A-C-H-K-A-R.
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(Background noise.)
NIELSEN:
And were waiting for security officers; Zolten RONKAI, and the surname is spelled R-O-N-K-A-I and Darren JONES to bring him from the medical infirmary wing of the Institute.
VRUNA:
We need to know the time when he's in the room.
(Speaking in the background inaudible.)
NIELSEN:
Hi Richard.
Richard KACHKAR:
Hi.
NIELSEN:
How are you? Come on in here. I'm Detective Sergeant ah NIELSEN and this is my partner De- Detective VRUNA.
VRUNA:
Hi.
KACHKAR:
Nice to meet you.
NIELSEN:
Were with the Toronto Police Homicide Squad and uh I'm just gonna (sic) ask you to sit over there okay and the time right now is 10:13 a.m.
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KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
Richard and we've never met---
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
---and um just so you know were being - we are on video camera and were being recorded okay? Um, I'm just gonna (sic) introduce more formally who we are. Ah, Detective VRUNA and I are the lead Homicide Investigators into the death of Ryan RUSSELL okay. We didn't see you at the hospital. Ah, some other officers met went and they (UI) arrested you and charged you. Okay? But were gonna (sic) ask you some questions; but before I get into that, I'm just gonna (sic) go through a few things. Um, were in a an office right now um it's room B029 of the Halton Police Liaison Team Office. Ah it's normally occupied and it's not occupied ah and so we can sit here and talk to you today okay? Um the door is shut behind me, there's a window and it's clear ah it's not blocked. Ah security officer Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES are just in that room, its called a DNA testing room. Um, they have a clear view in here but they can't hear what's being said okay? Um, for the record
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um do you see anybody else in this room other than ah Detective VRUNA and myself?
KACHKAR:
No sir.
NIELSEN:
Okay and yourself -- there's nobody else in this room?
KACHKAR:
No sir.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So what I'm gonna (sic) start ah Richard um I know you were arrested -- I'm just gonna (sic) run through what you were arrested for okay; and you - and you have been charged and I know you've been to court. The First Degree Murder is in relation to a police officer by the name of Ryan RUSSELL and that occurred in the early morning hours of January 12th of this year just a little over a couple weeks ago, alright; So those are the charges that you're facing and youve been formally charged. Youve been to court now I think twice is that correct? Okay. Now I just wanna (sic) make sure that you understand your rights before we talk any further. Do you understand what you've been charged with?
KACHKAR:
I mean what you've told me. I mean.
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NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
You understand? Ah, it's my duty to inform you ah that you have the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay. You have the right to telephone any lawyer you wish and you also have the right to free legal advice from a Legal Aid Lawyer. If you are charged with an offense and you've been ah charged Um, you may apply to the Ontario Legal Aid Plan for assistance, 1- 800- 265- 0451 is a toll-free telephone number that will put you in contact with a Legal Aid Duty Counsel Lawyer for free legal advice right now. Do you understand that?
KACHKAR:
I did that already.
NIELSEN:
Okay so do you understand that?
KACHKAR:
Yes.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Um, do you wish to call a lawyer right now?
KACHKAR:
I need a lawyer to help me, I don't know what happened. I don't know what's going on here.
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NIELSEN:
Okay. I'm just -- do you want to speak to a lawyer before you speak to us or are you okay to speak to us?
KACHKAR:
No, I should speak to a lawyer; I should have my lawyer please.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Because I'm ah---
NIELSEN:
Have you retained a lawyer by the way?
KACHKAR:
I'm in the process now of calling some people and---
NIELSEN:
Do you have a lawyer?
KACHKAR:
Not yet.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So youve ah - you've not retained any lawyer?
KACHKAR:
No, because I just got applied for Legal Aid and - and then just applied for Legal Aid so now I'm looking for a lawyer.
NIELSEN:
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Okay. So what Im going to do is there's a telephone here---
KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
---um before we go any further so what I'll do is - and we'll ah bring you into the next room and I'll put the telephone there and well give you privacy okay. Now I I should tell you that we cant hear what you say because of the circumstances you will be under observation. Do you understand that?
NIELSEN:
Okay, I will call duty counsel and um actually we have to call them first is how it's gonna (sic) work and well call duty---
KACHKAR:
I called one this morning.
NIELSEN:
Did you?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I called a lawyer cuz (sic) I have a list. So, I called a lawyer, said shes gonna (sic) get back to me or I should call back at 2 or something after lunch to see if - if she's gonna (sic) be ah available so I have a few that I want to call.
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NIELSEN:
Okay. Um we were provided the name of a la- of a lawyer of a - a lawyer by the name of ah Magdalena WISOMUSKA. Have you spoken to her? (KACHKAR shaking head) So what's your preference, would you like us to call a a certain lawyer or would you like us to call Duty Counsel to see if you can get some legal advice?
KACHKAR:
Well, in court already they said that um I should call the - I should have some lawyers that I should call.
NIELSEN:
Okay. But I'm asking you what - what what do you wanna (sic) do right now?
KACHKAR:
Right now probably just call those ah call them and then - and then listen to what they have to say. Cuz (sic) I don't kn- I don't know what happened officer; I really don't. I'm running very scared. It never happened to me in my life. I don't know why I did it or what happened? I dont have a and---
NIELSEN:
Okay. But but you know listen, before you go any further we'll ah - what we'll do is - so you don't have - I just want to make sure I'm - I understand that you have not spoken to a lawyer, youve not retained a lawyer?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah. No.
NIELSEN:
You understand what's involved in that?
KACHKAR:
Legal Aid, like a Legal Aid they proved that and then find a lawyer who wants to---
NIELSEN:
So youve not actually been interviewed by a lawyer? (KACHKAR shakes head) Okay what I'm gonna (sic) do then based on what you're telling me is um we will call um Legal Aid, the number, and put them in - put you in touch with a lawyer so you can speak to a lawyer and get some legal advice okay? We'll do that. So were gonna (sic) have to make a phone call and what I will do is Ill have the officers um - actually, I'm just gonna (sic) speak to them and see what the best way of coordinating that is okay. Let me just ask them. (NIELSEN off camera) What he wants is - we're gonna (sic) call a ah Duty Counsel so I think probably the best thing for us to do is to make the call, well let you take him back to his room.
MALE:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
Ah, subject to what you think Ill call Duty Counsel and Legal Aid and wait for them to call me back.
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MALE:
Alright.
NIELSEN:
When they call me back---
MALE:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
---um maybe we can bring him back and he can speak to counsel---
KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
---ah here or is there some other area where he can speak to Legal Aid?
MALE:
Um---
NIELSEN:
And if they call here can we ---
MALE:
Well, why don't why dont we try calling them while we have him here?
NIELSEN:
Yeah. They won't - they won't answer ah it's the 1- 800-number and we have to give them information to call back.
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MALE:
Oh, okay. Okay.
NIELSEN:
Thats how it works.
MALE:
So um, I think here is as good as any.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So in the meantime while were waiting and well and well can we take him back to his room?
MALE:
Now the only other thing that we can do is he's entitled to a - he's able to make a collect call from his cell. We have one of these (inaudible) telephones.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
MALE:
Um, that ah - if the duty counsel calls - calls back and like if he gives you a phone number---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
MALE:
---that he can call collect.
NIELSEN:
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M-hm.
MALE:
Then he can call the Duty Counsel from his cell.
NIELSEN:
Why don't I try that. So what well do is ah - were gonna (sic) do that okay Richard? Im gonna (sic) call Duty Counsel and the officer is gonna (sic) take you back to the secure area---
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
---and well call duty counsel and when they call me; I'm gonna (sic) get a number that you can speak to somebody okay?
KACHKAR:
Thank you.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So it's ah 10:21 a.m. and these officers are gonna (sic) take you back to your area okay?
KACHKAR:
Okay. (Tape stopped)
NIELSEN:
Okay. Its Tuesday, January 25th, 2011, and the time now is 11:34. Im Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5 8 0 9 of the Toronto Police Homicide Squad. Maplehurst Correctional Institute in room B029; Im with my partner Detective Mary
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VRUNA and Richard KACHKAR and were in the DNA room with security officer Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES. And Richard, we are being recorded again and we have a Duty Counsel Lawyer by the name of Susan PORTEUS on hold. Okay Richard, you have asked us to speak to a a lawyer and so we have a duty counsel lawyer ah were gonna (sic) forward you some privacy and for the record the officers will be just outside this door.
KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
Well be just inside this door. Ah, because of the security measures well be able to see ah and we ask that you remain seated where you are and you have privacy. We cant hear whats being said okay? So when youre finished the phone and Ill just ask you to hang it up and then ah well speak to you okay? So were gonna (sic) shut the doors right now and the time right now is ---
VRUNA:
Hi, Ms. PORTEUS? Hi, Ive got Richard KACHKAR here um and Im gonna (sic) give him the phone and then well be leaving the interview room okay? Yes, he does. Okay and there there you go.
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NIELSEN:
Okay its ah 11---
KACHKAR:
And what were we talking about?
NIELSEN:
2011 and the time by my watch right now is 11:34 a.m. I'm Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN, 5-8-0-9 of the Toronto Police Homicide Squad, Maplehurst Correctional Institute in room B029 and this is my partner Detective Mary VRUNA and ah Richard KACHKAR and in the DNA room um with security officers; Zolten RONKAI and Darren JONES and ah Richard we're now being recorded again. Um you just got off the phone with a lawyer, Susan PORTEUS is that correct?
KACHKAR:
Yes.
NIELSEN:
Okay. I'm just gonna (sic) accompany us back in the interview room. Just have a seat over there okay? Thank you. You understand were still being recorded right Richard?
KACHKAR:
Yes sir.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Have you spoken to a - a lawyer?
KACHKAR:
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On the phone.
NIELSEN:
Susan PORTEUS on the phone?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Alright. I'm just gonna (sic) go over a a couple of things. Um, I told you what the charges you're facing are. Im just gonna (sic) recite them again just so youre clear. Its First Degree Murder and it's in relation to events that took place on January 12th a little - almost 2 weeks ago ah in the morning of January 12th 2011 okay? Um, in relation to one witness - or one victim is a a police officer by the name of Ryan RUSSELL and ah he died. Those are the charges that you're facing alright. I explained them earlier. Um and do you wish to say anything in answer to the charges? You're not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say in relation to the charges may be given as evidence. Do you understand that?
KACHKAR:
Yes sir.
NIELSEN:
Okay. In your words, what does that mean to you?
KACHKAR:
It means that I whatever I say could be used as evidence.
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NIELSEN:
Okay. Alright and were being recorded ah and were taking some written notes as well okay; and ah the other thing I wanna (sic) ask you is if you have spoken to any police officer before you met us or to anyone with authority and that includes the Security Correctional Service people. Um or if any such people have spoken to you in connection with this case, I want it clearly understood, I don't want it to influence you in making any statement. Do you understand what that means?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. People talking and since everybody knows something anyways but I dont know.
NIELSEN:
Yeah. But did you under- what - in your words what does that mean to you?
KACHKAR:
That theyll say a lot of things but it hasnt - its not what you're talking about. Youre saying youre
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NIELSEN:
What ah - and what that means is has anybody made any promises to you to say something to us? Ah, anybody made any threats to you to say anything to us or not say anything to us?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
How have you been treated in the facility here?
KACHKAR:
Very nice. They treat me nice here.
NIELSEN:
They treat you well? Okay and since your arrest, how have you been treated?
KACHKAR:
Well, I dont know because Ive never been arrested before so just standard I guess, Im just being put in my room and wait there and they have somebody watch me and Id be eating my food and have my bandages checked and thats it. I haven't had any communication.
NIELSEN:
So when you went to the hospital, how did you get treated there, how were you - how did you feel you were treated there?
KACHKAR:
I don't recall. I don't recall the hospital incident and everything. I don't recall that.
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NIELSEN:
Okay. Alright. Ah, I'm just gonna (sic) ask you a couple things and um maybe a little bit about yourself and ah and it's up to you whether you want to answer it or not? I mean it's um - I have spoken to your wife, Maro. I understand um that you've been married for quite some time is that right? Ah, how how long have you been married for?
KACHKAR:
20 years or 22 years.
NIELSEN:
20 years?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Youre very soft-spoken Richard and I'm just gonna (sic) ask you to try to ah---
KACHKAR:
22 years sir.
NIELSEN:
22 years? Okay.
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
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And um and you have a couple of kids?
KACHKAR:
Yes.
NIELSEN:
And that's ah as- Ashley and Berj is that right?
KACHKAR:
Yes sir.
NIELSEN:
Okay and um were gonna (sic) speak to that and just to - I have spoken to Ashley by the way. She asked me to pass the message on to you, I promised that I would. I'm gonna (sic) do that now. She asked me to tell you that she loves you.
KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
Alright? So, I did tell her that I would say that.
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
Um, have you seen them? Whens the last time you seen them?
KACHKAR:
I dont know, I think after New Year's or New Years.
NIELSEN:
After New Years?
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KACHKAR:
Before New Years.
NIELSEN:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, because um I'm not working and things like that and at home you know I'm kind of just - because it's not my house so I just stay there sometimes when I don't I stay at my place. I have a little building that I stay at and---
NIELSEN:
Okay. Which now - which - and when you say it's not your house, which house are you talking about?
KACHKAR:
My wifes place because its like a kind um um a co-op housing.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Shes there because she has like a medical condition.
NIELSEN:
Alright.
KACHKAR:
And it when our and and she needed to get her time together so she was shes with the kids there and so me going there sometimes puts stress on her and you know she doesn't have time
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for me she doesnt have you know she wants to water her plants or something you know she's not - I have to call her.
NIELSEN:
Okay so were you - were you staying there?
KACHKAR:
No. No.
NIELSEN: KACHKAR:
No and then ah - Im just wondering; is that the the co-op I'm not supposed to be there its just I go see my dogs there. I have some dogs there.
NIELSEN:
How many dogs do you have there?
KACHKAR:
I have three.
NIELSEN:
Three dogs and they and theyre your dogs?
KACHKAR:
Ah, the one that that one um and the miniature pincher, from the other apartment I got, I got that when she was in the hospital.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
And then the other one too; the other Chanel is my dog too. Theyre hers, she takes care of them. Theyre her dogs.
NIELSEN:
She takes care of them?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, theyre her dogs.
NIELSEN:
Theyre her dogs?
KACHKAR:
Yeah she registered them and gets their shots and everything.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Now how long is your has your wife ah lived there at that address?
KACHKAR:
2005?
NIELSEN:
2005?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And did you live there with her at all? (KACHKAR shakes head) So you - you never lived there with her?
KACHKAR:
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No.
NIELSEN:
And and and am I right in saying that your wife lives there with your two children? (KACHKAR nods head) Ashley and and Berj?
KACHKAR:
Like on occasions, I do I go there, I visit you know a day or like oc- occasions I go there and visit, but I'm not welcomed there. Im not.
NIELSEN:
You're not welcomed there?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
Now why is that ah Richard?
KACHKAR:
I dont know. I don't know. Again, I don't know. You know, I I - doesn't matter where and if Im on the other side of the world, I'm concerned especially about Ashley and Berj; you know who they go out with like the wi- the wife will tell me oh she's got this boyfriend or whatever so I'll make sure Im there. You know where are they going and you know they think they're going camping or they think they're doing a lot of things. So, I have to say to her you're not doing that, you're coming home at 11. But she was working and she's coming home and she wants
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to go somewhere else at 12, I says you're not gonna (sic) do that. Her mom doesn't have that ability. Her mom is just a nice lady and everything and she just doesn't like arguments. But---
NIELSEN:
Okay. So you - you're talking about your daughter now?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And your son?
KACHKAR:
For my daughter and my son, Im all you know and I'm always there. Even though I'm not wanted there, I'm not supposed to be there, at least I do that, whether they like it or not. You know because I know there were some things involved and kids in high school what they do. So, I I always wanted to be part of that. Now when they got older ah Berj is doing his thing and he has his construction and his - and his friends he's older; and Ashley is at her school. I'm fine now. Her mom is ah taking care of things.
NIELSEN:
You think ah your wife is looking after things better now?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
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NIELSEN:
So it wasn't so good before?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Because kids were younger and theyre swearing at everybody and everything like that you know and---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
---and at their mom and everything.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So mom sort of got used to that thing and I don't get used to it. When they swear that says thats it youre out of here. Theres no way you can, its not your house. I said I don't care whose house it is and those kind of issues so.
NIELSEN:
So will you have an arg- did you have arguments with each other?
KACHKAR:
Well, not arguments but theyre like - because they know they can't argue with me---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
---when I say 11 o'clock, you be home at 11 o'clock.
NIELSEN:
So you're more of the - of the disciplinarian than---
KACHKAR:
Thats right.
NIELSEN:
---and your wife has a heart and she's more soft is that what you're saying?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. She's like you know lets guys go up into her room and they hid in her room and I say no it's not going on. Let them go get their own room that's not how it works. You dont do that around here. Because theyre coming there smoking - smoking things and stuff like that in the house and I said that not going on and my wife would go and come and tell me; oh and so she leaves and come back and she says oh and theyre smoking, smoking stuff and whatever, whatever. I says you know what those guys youse (sic) bring over if I I kept them on the side and I said well - I don't want to repeat it now. But - but I just explained to them that you know - don't do that around here.
NIELSEN:
Okay and how did ah - how did your children accept that from you?
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KACHKAR:
Um, I think they - I think they they they - I think its its like me being here, how do I accept it? I don't wanna (sic) be here, but I'm here and you know I have to live by the rules, and the rules are right. So whether I wanted to complain or not you know it's my business.
NIELSEN:
You respect the rules?
KACHKAR:
I respect the rules. I respect what's happening and - and that was the whole reason I went to the shelter and everything. Because I---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I need to get up early, have a little breakfast and have my coffee and go do my work. Im a toolmaker. I - I get up early and do my thing and go to work; after work come home you know and have a nice dinner, go for a walk but that's all.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Its simple.
NIELSEN:
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I understand.
KACHKAR:
So it got too complicated and I dont want to I kept up getting up at 12 and then eating this and that and coming home at (UI:01).
NIELSEN:
Im just gonna (sic) - Im gonna (sic) get back to that. But I wanted to ask you and you said something um about your house um um the one on Welland where your wife and your children live? You said you're not welcome there; what do you mean by that?
KACHKAR:
Every time I go it's like what's he doing here and you know somethings wrong there something -- they just don't like me.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
C-cuz (sic) I take up their time, my mom's time, and she pays attention -- just kid stuff officer, just kid stuff - nothing, normal, nothing you wouldn't have in anybody's family; anybody could have that.
NIELSEN:
It sounds like that to me. But---
KACHKAR:
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It is it is - theres nothing theres nothing.
NIELSEN:
---Ive got teenagers so I can - I can relate a little bit ah and that sounds like what you're describing.
KACHKAR:
Yeah and the thing is Im kind of---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---Im kind of um - I'm just a normal person too so when things have not and when things happen you know, could happen. Like they start smoking drugs at school or whatever you gotta (sic) accept it. It happened. That's what they're doing. There's hundreds of kids, they're getting pregnant, they're doing that. So, I don't know if you ah - there's a way to prevent it in every family good or bad.
NIELSEN:
I don't think there's any perfect way other than to understand your - your child's life---
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
---and then they try to be the parents.
KACHKAR:
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Thats what I did and---
NIELSEN:
Is that what you were doing?
KACHKAR:
Thats all what I was doing officer and like and Ive even one time when when she went there, she moved to her place, I went to go get my place. Theres many people. I used to go and you know especially these um accommodations and so many people wanted me to live with them and I'm a really good person to get along with and cook and---
NIELSEN:
Youre pretty easy going?
KACHKAR:
Easy going; I never have a problem officer with anybody.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So, but that wasn't the point, I didnt -- the point was I had to finish this and make sure shes okay and even until now to go to school. I made sure she - you know she had to go to school, do her student loan, get her things going and it's tough.
NIELSEN:
It seems to me that that you're trying to be a good dad.
KACHKAR:
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Thats all.
NIELSEN:
Thats all you're doing?
KACHKAR:
Thats all I'm doing.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Now is - is there some um - is there some legal um is there some legal reason why you couldn't go back to the house?
KACHKAR:
No because we've had arguments and things like that. Arguments, my wife used to go you know I don't know when she's coming home. We had that pulling and that tugging and they were calling the police and this happened.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I was never charged or anything. Id always wait there.
NIELSEN:
Is that on the Welland Avenue house?
KACHKAR:
No, that wasnt even when I moved to Toronto -- I had a hou- I had a house in Toronto at Bangor and Sheppard.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
So that was co- that was - I was paying over like $2500 dollars for that and the hydro and everything.
NIELSEN:
But did you rent or did you own that house?
KACHKAR:
I was renting.
NIELSEN:
You were renting it?
KACHKAR:
I was working with a company at the time and when it came so it was okay because I was getting okay and then that company moved to Florida so I thought Id stay. I liked Toronto and my wife liked it here.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But she - I wanted - and we needed to scale down. We needed to do something, but she has no communication skills - I mean absolutely.
NIELSEN:
Maro?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. She can't. She knows it. She kind of always takes things as ifwhen you tell her - when I talked to her she seems to
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know it already and and ah you know and we can't just say and say look and were in this situation, we need to scale down. Why don't we go take a look at houses you know and its in a and not a - this could be an enjoyable time. But everything seems to be oh no were moving again and so I - I have to I walk lightly. I walk on egg shells. So if we had a chance to drive out - we were driving out to Niagara Falls just for a houfor a visit---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and everything. She didn't want to come or whatever. But she came and then we stopped at St. Catharines and we found a little apartment there for like $800 dollars or $700 dollars and that's it and we decided to move there with the family; and we moved there ri- right away and she moved in. It was nice and ah then and then the kids put them to school.. She put them in school, nice schools there.
NIELSEN:
This is in St. Catharines and when - and what and what year was that ah Richard?
KACHKAR:
About 2004; I think.
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NIELSEN:
2004? So you moved from Toronto to there?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
Okay and how long had you worked in Toronto?
KACHKAR:
I've been in Toronto since probably May of 2000.
NIELSEN:
So about four years?
KACHKAR:
Yeah or little bit more.
NIELSEN:
Always at that same address on Bangor?
KACHKAR:
Ah, no I was in - I was staying alone at one time when I was working with the company because my family was in Vancouver still. So I was working with the company and then I was travelling like every two weeks I was going home for the weekend. Like Id leave at night, fly to Vancouver---
NIELSEN:
Oh.
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KACHKAR:
---see the kids and then go out. Id leave in the evening and Id come to take the the 11 oclock flight and then go to Toronto, go to the office in the morning.
NIELSEN:
That must of been pretty stressful?
KACHKAR:
Mostly on the kids, not on me.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
For me it was like you know and was it just a it was hard.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But thats - I thought that was gonna (sic) at least help me---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and you know my future---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---instead of sitting back. It was hard. I never had a dull moment.
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NIELSEN:
What company were you working with at that time?
(Background noise.)
KACHKAR:
At that time; Misa Pharmaceuticals.
(Background noise.)
NIELSEN:
Misa? And what were you doing for them?
KACHKAR:
I was just like office manager and helping them. Like tooling and things like that.
NIELSEN:
And when did you start working for for Misa Pharmaceuticals?
KACHKAR:
I think 99.
NIELSEN:
1999? And you said you were living in Vancouver; were you living in Vancouver at the time? (KACHKAR nods head) Like whereabouts in Vancouver were you living?
KACHKAR:
I was in North Vancouver.
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NIELSEN:
North Vancouver?
KACHKAR:
On um on ah Phil Avenue (ph).
NIELSEN:
Phil Avenue (ph). So you were there with with Maro and your children and ah how did you get this job with Misa Pharmaceuticals?
KACHKAR:
Um, I don't know through family, through ah ah my uncle came and I don't really remember that. I don't recall all those things now.
NIELSEN:
Your uncle? What's your uncles name?
KACHKAR:
Ah, Fred.
NIELSEN:
Fred? What's his last name?
KACHKAR:
KACHKAR.
NIELSEN:
Fred KACHKAR?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
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NIELSEN:
So did he - did he have a - a high position at the company or was it his company?
KACHKAR:
No, it was his son's company.
NIELSEN:
His sons company?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
And whos his son?
KACHKAR:
Um, Jack.
NIELSEN:
Jack? So Jack actually owns Misa Pharmaceuticals?
KACHKAR:
I think so, I don't know.
NIELSEN:
Is it and thats - so that's how you got the job? (KACHKAR nods head) Okay so you started working in Vancouver and you were an office manager?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and he was buying a factory in ah - and buying a factory and ah so I was just doing the due diligence on the - on the acquisition.
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NIELSEN:
Where was that?
KACHKAR:
Ah in New Jersey.
NIELSEN:
In New Jersey?
KACHKAR:
In Ferriton (ph). So I was sent out there and stayed late.
NIELSEN:
Whats the name of the town or city?
KACHKAR:
In Ferriton (ph).
NIELSEN:
Ferriton (ph)?
KACHKAR:
Ferriton (ph).
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
By Vineland
NIELSEN:
Okay, I don't know New Jersey very well and so.
KACHKAR:
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M-hm. So it was a rough place---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
---so they found the right guy. I get in there and it's all the comp- the factory is all dysfunctional and everything so they wanna (sic) sell it and they have their list of all their things.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So now I'm gonna (sic) check it, check their software and all that and things are winding up, thats it.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Like thats what was my job and then from there I would fly back and---
NIELSEN:
Back to Vancouver? Okay so was Misa based out of Misa Misa Pharmaceuticals?
KACHKAR:
No out of Edmonton.
NIELSEN:
Out of Edmonton? Okay so did you work out of Vancouver or Edmonton?
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KACHKAR:
Edmonton. Sometimes I would take the lap top, but mostly, I would be in Edmonton. So I've been away from my family since 1999 or so.
NIELSEN:
Since 1999 - that's a long time.
KACHKAR:
I've been with them, but because of the travel and that Y2K thing and all that.
NIELSEN:
Oh, yeah. I remember that.
KACHKAR:
I handled all that because I had my computer; I had my ah you know skills in that area.
NIELSEN:
Are you you good with the computer?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Where did you learn that?
KACHKAR:
I've learned that at um (UI:01) College because I studied architecture.
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NIELSEN:
I heard that and and---
KACHKAR:
I studied architecture in Armenia. My background is Armenian.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Are you Armenian?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Well, my - I'm adopted.
NIELSEN:
Oh, you are adopted?
KACHKAR:
Im adopted into an Armenian family.
NIELSEN:
Okay and then what were you - what are you - your parents names? Your adopted parents?
KACHKAR:
Um Betty and Esbar KACHKAR.
NIELSEN:
Esbar?
KACHKAR:
Yes.
NIELSEN:
Betty and Esbar? Okay. Are they still alive? They're not eh? Were they living in Vancouver and they adopted you?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah, but in Edmonton. I think.
NIELSEN:
In Edmonton?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I have three older sisters.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Did you have a - another name before you were adopted?
KACHKAR:
Um, see I had -- we had never been told my my and I was never told that. People when I - I was never told---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---I was adopted. I was treated nice and everything and then few times it came up and my wife always says oh we need to know who you - I really didn't need to know. I really didnt want to know because my parents weren't that good. My parents - like people like theyre hard to explain. But where they take their adopted people and they take better care of it so um s----
NIELSEN:
How old were you when you were adopted?
KACHKAR:
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Just a baby.
NIELSEN:
Just a baby? So did you - did you ever find out - have you ever met your ah your---
KACHKAR:
No, I---
NIELSEN:
---your birth mother?
KACHKAR:
No. No. I was in Vancouver and in Toronto once and I phoned cuz (sic) I was in Toronto and I - when I was there working and I called - theres some - theres now an adoption - an open Adoption Registry and everything like that. So, I was in the process of that.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Like after that I don't know and they sent me a letter or something, but I don't know where that letter is or no - no follow-up.
NIELSEN:
So you you - you don't -- you had no other name that you knew of that you went by until you were born? (KACHKAR shakes head) Okay and so you - you were adopted in Edmonton when you were a baby?
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KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Where did you grow up?
KACHKAR:
In Edmonton.
NIELSEN:
You grew up in Edmonton? Okay and do you have any brothers, sisters?
KACHKAR:
Just three older sisters.
NIELSEN:
Three older sisters?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
What are their names?
KACHKAR:
Grace, and Da- Ingrid and Daisy.
NIELSEN:
Grace?
KACHKAR:
Ingrid and Daisy.
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NIELSEN:
And Daisy - and were they adopted as well? (KACHKAR shakes head) Okay, so they---
KACHKAR:
I don't think so.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So you---
KACHKAR:
But - I don't think so. It's something like they knew something was different you know and there was always something -normal stuff.
NIELSEN:
How did you find your life in Edmonton when you were growing up?
KACHKAR:
It was rough and it was a tough city you know? You know a tough city. I used to go to c- store, the corner store and get robbed and punched out, and get robbed as a young kid. From day one, right out in from of the store.
NIELSEN:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
Just running all the time. School and always running and running and always people just running and problems and---
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NIELSEN:
Did you um - you went to school in Edmonton I take it? How far did you get in school?
KACHKAR:
I went to high school. Archbishop. I went to Our Lady of the Victories in elementary and then St. Paul's a Junior High and ah high school, I went to um Archbishop MacDonald.
NIELSEN:
How far did you go in high school?
KACHKAR:
Grade 12.
NIELSEN:
Grade 12? How did you do in school?
KACHKAR:
Um, some things I did well, some things I didn't.
NIELSEN:
What were you good at?
KACHKAR:
Like um math and machining and ah - something language arts and either I did really well really well or I did really bad.
NIELSEN:
What did you do bad in?
KACHKAR:
Um chemistry and stuff like that. It wouldn't make sense to me
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NIELSEN:
What was your favourite subjects when you were going through school? I personally, I hated math but ah I liked the sciences.
KACHKAR:
Drafting and things like that. Machine shop, machining.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Were you good at it? Did you have a lot of friends Richard when you were in school? Yeah?
KACHKAR:
Some. A different some - and some friend. Like I had a few friends, a few certain friends. We we had certain friends in high sc- in ah - in high school.
VRUNA:
(Clears throat.)
NIELSEN:
What did you like to do when you were in school? Did you have any hobbies? Did you play sports or anything like that?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. After school wed you know our my buddies and I we would do street hockey, do normal things.
NIELSEN:
Yeah? You play hockey?
KACHKAR:
Like I didnt go into the - I wasnt able to go play, but I played. I played ah with them - with them when I could.
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NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
Id find a stick here and tape it up or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Just a regular---
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
--- a regular Canadian kid who played street hockey.
KACHKAR:
Thats it. Because my parents brought me up different. I - I started working when I was young I was working when I was 14 working at dishwashing in my first year.
NIELSEN:
Oh, yeah?
KACHKAR:
So, I worked all summer and then---
NIELSEN:
Where was that?
KACHKAR:
That was at Mayfield Inn in Edmonton because my uncle would take me right?
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NIELSEN:
14? So, you were young when you started working then?
KACHKAR:
My uncle was the manager there and I liked that and then that school, I had my car. I always had a car when I was 14 even.
NIELSEN:
You had a car when you were 14?
KACHKAR:
When I started to learn my learners---
NIELSEN:
Your learners?
KACHKAR:
---when I was 16 my dad gave me his car and---
NIELSEN:
He gave you the car? What was the first car you had?
KACHKAR:
Its um a 1978 Meteor Monte Carlo. Because Id go use that to go pick up my mom and ah from work - she worked at the hospital until 11.
NIELSEN:
So you must of been pretty popular, a 16-year-old with a car?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I did - it was okay. To a lot of people it was okay, I had a lot of friends and there was no reason to not to be any problems.
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NIELSEN:
Did you have no - no problems in - in school?
(Background noise - phone ringing.)
KACHKAR:
A couple of times there were some guys, I don't know where they pop out of ah - I don't know like (phone ringing in the background) KACHKAR were gonna (sic) kill you or whatever. Come after me with a knife and---
(Telephone ringing in the background.)
KACHKAR:
---some guys from other schools.
NIELSEN:
Now why would they - why would these---
(Telephone ringing in the background.)
NIELSEN:
---people be saying that to you?
KACHKAR:
Just like bullies, just like today, bullies. They always come out with their plan because I went to an academic school---
NIELSEN:
Right.
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KACHKAR:
I need to do my thing and there's some guys that have been in jail already since 12 years old stealing cars or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So now they're still on - you know I maybe asked his brother oh, where's your brother and how come he's not in school or whatever and thats it. Theyre chasing me around and keep coming to me Rich and you know the guys wants to kill you with a knife so Id take off already out of the back door.
NIELSEN:
Were they - was it just you in particular or were there other people?
KACHKAR:
No, it was just me.
NIELSEN:
Or were they be treated the same way?
KACHKAR:
No, it was just me.
NIELSEN:
It was just you eh?
KACHKAR:
Just me.
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NIELSEN:
And that sounds pretty tough, but you're finished school right?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
So what did you do when you finished high school?
KACHKAR:
I was working um - with um with a rental company; I got a job rental - a rental company and he had contracts with um apartments and things. So you find - you call them and we pick you up and then I find you a ten Id find accommodations for you like if you called and you said youre new in town. I'd come and pick you up and he's telling me oh I want to go check out some places and then I know - and thats it and then I get um a commission. 50% of the first month rent.
NIELSEN:
It sounds pretty good.
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And I mean for a young guy and right out of school?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I would be a a lot of my friends always would ask me they need a job, and they need a job and everything. But you
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know what to go get a job, you have to go get a job that's the first thing.
NIELSEN:
Thats right.
KACHKAR:
You know I can ask and I can do, and I can have contacts, but you really need to just go and get one. So that was that and then then ah it was just and people were growing up in high school with hockey and everything and then those years maybe. At la- after high school my family friend came and he studied in Armenia.
NIELSEN:
Whos that?
KACHKAR:
His name was Raffy BALIAN (ph). He was a - a doctor.
NIELSEN:
Raffy BABIAN (ph)?
KACHKAR:
BABIAN (ph). Hes a friend and so he's a friend of my - well sisters husbands from Lebanon or something so when he came to ah - he came to Edmonton to visit so I went to pick him up, I was like younger too and you know he was older than me. He was a doctor; I think so.
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NIELSEN:
How old were you then do you think?
KACHKAR:
Probably, 18.
NIELSEN:
18?
KACHKAR:
So, him yeah, I helped and I would go pick him up and go stay at his house because I didn't like my place at home. I didn't like it you know. I wasn't able to do much and---
NIELSEN:
How come?
KACHKAR:
I don't know and you know girls and they always do their own thing. My parents were smoking, chain smokers all the time.
NIELSEN:
Did you get along with your parents?
KACHKAR:
Ah, I did because I I did - I just did.
NIELSEN:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
But if otherwise, I didn't because you know I wouldn't. Um, I don't know. Sometimes they did and sometimes we didn't it would all depend on their mood. It wasn't a normal relationship.
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NIELSEN:
Wha- what makes it not normal? In your mind?
KACHKAR:
Well, I never seemed to be able to do anything right and---
NIELSEN:
You?
KACHKAR:
M-hm. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
But then now who - gave you that idea?
KACHKAR:
I don't know, just the way it is. You know like Id go to work.
NIELSEN:
Was it your mother or your father?
KACHKAR:
Kind of yeah and the sisters. Like ah they always knew something I didnt you know. Id come - Id be adopted and then when I was 15, I was like working in the kitchen---
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
---and making prep things and everything so we had to peel garlic right? I peeled - peel bags of garlic. So, I remember when they used to come and pick me up theyd like be ewe and what's
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that smell? That kind of stuff, stupid stuff. Like now I would of said its garlic you know, get used to it. Then I was just a youth, I didn't understand.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So is that the extent of why you didn't think you had a - a great relationship with them?
KACHKAR:
I---
NIELSEN:
Or is there something else? Did you get along - did you get along um better with your dad or your mom?
KACHKAR:
Well, I think with my dad I used to get along and they had a business and everything and I always used to go help them in their business after school or---
NIELSEN:
What, what was the business that they had?
KACHKAR:
A mens wear store.
NIELSEN:
Mens wear?
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KACHKAR:
And they had it - it was on the other side of the city so after my dad was working, working for the Government all day then he'd go to the store.
NIELSEN:
So he had two jobs? He worked what did he do for the Government?
KACHKAR:
He was a communications technician and operated Government telephones.
NIELSEN:
And then they had a store as well?
KACHKAR:
And then he bought a store.
NIELSEN:
So he was doing both at the same time? What - what was the name of the store?
KACHKAR:
Diors Men's Wear (ph).
NIELSEN:
Now was that in Edmonton as well?
KACHKAR:
That was in Edmonton North Town Mall so it was really and Id have the suits - I remember we came here to Montral to - and from Tor- we were in Edmonton and we drove to Montral and
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hed buy the suits and hed make hed make and he would have the things made by Shipley and Ricky Allen. Nice suits.
NIELSEN:
All high-end stuff?
KACHKAR:
And then there was a lot of people that - from you know on the oil rigs and things like that they come in. He set them up nice, a suit on and everything like that.
NIELSEN:
So did they - and did the business do well?
KACHKAR:
The business did really well. It was doing well and my mom would work there too, but she - she worked in the hospital and an administrator in the hos-- hospital.
NIELSEN:
Which hospital was that?
KACHKAR:
Royal Alexander Hospital.
NIELSEN:
So your mom worked in a hospital and your dad worked for the Government and he ran ah the store?
KACHKAR:
And she did - she worked at the store until she used to work at the store and it could be the morning until he gets there so she
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can go to her job, so basically we kids were at home and do just do what we do so when I used to come home and try to make something to eat and---
NIELSEN:
So it sounds to me like your parents were out a lot because of the jobs? So now, I I didn't ask you, but are your sisters older than you or younger?
KACHKAR:
Older than me.
NIELSEN:
Theyre all older? Now you're 44 right? And how old are your sisters?
KACHKAR:
I don't know a little older than me. 45 or 46 and I mean 48 and ah Daisy 50 something. I lost communication because when my mom was sick and and I was working and she was sick I came um - I came to see her because she was sick and it's hard - it's hard for me to fly back and forth. Like I had my time every two weeks I could say Im going home and I could fly out.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
KACHKAR:
Ah, when I started working like with the Pharmaceutical Company.
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NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So when my mom was sick and I don't recall the year so I wasn't able to go out that much so when she did pass away and I went there they would - nobody would even hugged me or anything so it was over and its just as well.
NIELSEN:
So you weren't very close at that time?
KACHKAR:
I was very close with my mom. My mom.
NIELSEN:
What about your sisters? That's what I'm - is that what you're saying to me?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. But that was just weird and they - and they were just weird like and they were just weird and I didn't have anything to do with them.
NIELSEN:
Why do you think that was?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. I don't know. They enjoyed their lifestyle there and my parents and---
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NIELSEN:
So at some point ah when you were growing up with your sisters were you - were you not close with them or you - you weren't? You weren't?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
So and ah just to get back to what you are talking about with this ah - ah this doctors and is it Ra- Raffy? This doctor?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
No? What happened there?
KACHKAR:
So, when he came he was a cool guy and everything he said um and he sa- he told my parents you should send Richard to Armenia.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So that was a surprise to me.
NIELSEN:
And you were 18 at this time?
KACHKAR:
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I was 18.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
And when he said it, I said I don't think so. I mean, I'm just getting ready now and I'm ready to go because I didn't have any girlfriends or anything like that. We weren't allowed to havelike, guy friends.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
But there was none of that kind of relationships stuff.
NIELSEN:
Were your parents strict?
KACHKAR:
Not really, no.
NIELSEN:
No?
KACHKAR:
No, I could go out and come. They trusted me a lot and I had good friends.
NIELSEN:
How come you didn't have girlfriends?
KACHKAR:
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No, I had friends like girls.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
But not those kind of girls that we bring home and sleep with them and stuff like that doesnt go on like that.
NIELSEN:
And why is that?
KACHKAR:
Just apparently and just were not like that you know?
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
The same with my wife, she's the first person I met and like the first person Im with. And I met her in Armenia.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So, I had lots of - I had lots of girls coming and going or whatever.
NIELSEN:
You didn't have like a steady?
KACHKAR:
No.
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NIELSEN:
Intimate girlfriends?
KACHKAR:
No. No, never.
NIELSEN:
And growing up?
KACHKAR:
No. No.
NIELSEN:
Your wife was the first one is that what you're saying? The first ah woman that you were intimate with? Okay. So Raffy says to your folks you
KACHKAR:
I should go to the Armenia.
NIELSEN:
Armenia? Okay.
KACHKAR:
So at first I said oh I don't think so and you know and this and that; and ah so I went and I did some research and then when my mom said oh you're going to Armenia. I said, I knew that, then then I better go because my mom made - my mom would then tell me---
NIELSEN:
She wanted to go?
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KACHKAR:
She said you should go
NIELSEN:
Okay. Do you speak Armenian by the way?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Did you learn that growing up?
KACHKAR:
No. So, when I went there I didn't speak any language or anything. I went by myself and I had a few hundred dollars in my pocket and a suitcase and - and then go to Montral and then I went to Moscow and then when I was there um---
NIELSEN:
So you're 18, pretty young?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
It must of - now did you go by yourself?
KACHKAR:
By myself.
NIELSEN:
And so what happens when you get there?
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KACHKAR:
Ah my flight I kind of figured out and a flight goes there you know I'm kind of like ah - ah I'm kind of shy type so I go and and Im looking for my flight. My flights there and it's gone because I have the ticket from here. The flights gone, flights gone and maybe three days in the in the airport in Moscow.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So my flight is gone and theres just - and theyre just ignoring me so finally somehow they put me on a plane and I flew there and my relatives picked me up there and I don't know where we were and what was going on.
NIELSEN:
This is Moscow?
KACHKAR:
In Armenia now.
NIELSEN:
Armenia?
KACHKAR:
Armenia and I was coming down with other people and they grab you and everything you know.
NIELSEN:
Is there a city in Armenia?
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KACHKAR:
Yerevan.
NIELSEN:
Yerevan?
KACHKAR:
Yerevan.
NIELSEN:
So that's where you landed? Yeah and that's why your relatives went there?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. They picked me up and - and brought me home.
NIELSEN:
Which relatives met you there?
KACHKAR:
My mom's - moms older relatives because they're from Egypt. Because there was a geno - in 1915 or something there was a genocide and half my family flew back went to - and stayed in Russia. Some went to Egypt and my mom was born in Egypt.
NIELSEN:
Your mother was born in Egypt. How about your dad?
KACHKAR:
I think my dad was born in Lebanon.
NIELSEN:
Lebanon?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And they - and they ended up in Russia?
KACHKAR:
No, they never went to Russia.
NIELSEN:
Or Armenia?
KACHKAR:
No they never did. They met in in Egypt and then my dad they went to Europe, to Sweden. My dad was setting up the phone systems in the Middle East and my dads a phone technician and my mo- and my mom was setting up the embassies also in Saudi Arabia.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
And so.
NIELSEN:
So it's from there that they came to Canada?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and they and my dad says he liked it there and he had prob- he liked Beruit he says. But there's always problems and fighting and he says he'd come back to ah - go back to Canada and he came to Edmonton. Actually, he came from some - I
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don't know where Vancouver or something working in factories and so on. But Edmonton is where he - we started in 1964 or something.
NIELSEN:
Thats when you came to Canada? In 64?
KACHKAR:
My two other sisters were born in I think Lebanon. But me and Grace - Grace and I were born in Edmonton.
NIELSEN:
You were born in Edmonton? Okay so this ah - and when you get to Armenia and youre - what's the name of the town? Yerevan?
KACHKAR:
Yerevan.
NIELSEN:
Yerevan.
KACHKAR:
So it's a preparatory school, a University just for thing, so they give you a little room and then you you go to class and brandnew language. I thought I was gonna (sic) study Russian and they said no and you're gonna (sic) study Armenian; and Armenian is a very difficult language, 36 letters, complete different and everything.
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NIELSEN:
Thats university?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I went to university. So we started, started giving me the lo- the letters of the alphabet and go home you know and then when you go home theres a lot of students there that already know the language from Lebanon, from different countries. Syria. So they're all partying because that first year is like preparatory for them, next year you go to University.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So again, I had to be alone and now I had problems with them again. I had problems again.
NIELSEN:
What kind of problems?
KACHKAR:
Like um I was learning the language rapidly, I learned it rapidly like it was - it didn't take me long, I could start communicating.
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NIELSEN:
Did you have like a - do you have a knack for picking up languages?
KACHKAR:
I picked it up quick.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
It wasn't a knack. Im Im when I'm able and I'm comfortable in everything like anybody else. Have the ability, you can do it. So I remember going to the - I don't know it was a party, a New Year's party and I guess these guys were gang were - and those people I want with and they were from Lebanon and they spoke English. So, I was always hang hanging I was with them and then I would - wed sit there and then um just dancing - you know they dance there and they eat and they dance and everybody was dancing around.
NIELSEN:
Sure.
KACHKAR:
Some guy head butts me or whatever in the - and comes like that pushes me around on the floor. Im just about to come after him too; and one of my buddies says no don't dont do that or whatever.
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NIELSEN:
Why did he do that to you?
KACHKAR:
Well, I - I don't know maybe I don't know what he was on. It was just I guess there were gangs; two gangs.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So, I says - so I sat down for awhile I says better leave and then when I left - I started to leave, I saw those guys and theres a whole bunch of guys at the door and all that so.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So a big confrontation with them. Pulled out knives and everything and cut me up everything.
NIELSEN:
Where did you get cut?
KACHKAR:
Like on my back and my shirt. It wasn't bad because they were hitting me and it wasn't really - it wasn't really putting me down so I just pu- did what I could do and then I moved on and then the next day they round all these guys up and find out that um they were after me already.
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NIELSEN:
And why? Did you ever find out why they were after you?
KACHKAR:
Because I was with the other group and, you know.
NIELSEN:
They thought you were part of the other group?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and you know where I go, we have fun. I don't hang - I don't like trouble and if I my and even my my best friend or something never liked trouble; not even downtown I have a friend and I stay with him. He drinks too much and everything I tell you - you know and I'm---
NIELSEN:
What friend is that?
KACHKAR:
Stevie B - Stephen BROWN.
NIELSEN:
Stephen BROWN?
KACHKAR:
He has an apartment there. He's a nice kid. He's a nice boy.
NIELSEN:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
He does his Tin thing and everything. Hes just - you know, just a man trying to survive.
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NIELSEN:
How long have you known him for?
KACHKAR:
Ah, I met him when I was in Toronto. I met him through some friends because I was through Stap- I was getting orders through Staples delivery.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
And so I met one guy and he was nice and he had me - after work we met up.
NIELSEN:
Which guy was nice?
KACHKAR:
Norman.
NIELSEN:
Norman?
KACHKAR:
Norman and he was a nice guy and I was new to Toronto and because we had people coming in from the UK and stuff too and they said oh dont you have any friends or mates? I said; no. So when you - when I don't have I just I don't know it just happened I just pray and I had some friends. So they - and then I met them and then through them I Im - I went to s- the like oh
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and were going to a birthday party and come along, come along. So that's how I met, thats how I started to meet my friends downtown.
NIELSEN:
In Toronto?
KACHKAR:
In Toronto.
NIELSEN:
Just kind of going to parties, social - regular social events.
KACHKAR:
New experiences for me officer. New experience. I've never been there. Especially in Regent Park there and ah---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
---that corner where I - and why would I go there? I would never go and I don't even know like what - and I go there at night.
NIELSEN:
So these guys are your - and that's where they were living or staying?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. No that's where they live.
NIELSEN:
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Thats where they live?
KACHKAR:
They live. So I see you know where they're living and they ah that life and everything and---
NIELSEN:
When was that - when did you meet ah - when did you start meeting these people in Toronto?
KACHKAR:
It was like 90 um - I just remember 93 or so.
NIELSEN:
93 and thats when you?
KACHKAR:
No. No, later. Later. Later. 2000. 2003, I think.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Is that when you were here living with your family?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, on Bangor Street in Toronto.
NIELSEN:
Is that when you started meeting these guys?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I met one guy and then I met his friend; and he was a really nice guy. He's from Jamaica.
NIELSEN:
Which guy is that?
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KACHKAR:
His name is Peter.
NIELSEN:
Peter?
KACHKAR:
Peter.
NIELSEN:
Do you know his last name?
KACHKAR:
Um, I do. Peter um PASOA (ph).
NIELSEN:
Hes from Jamaica?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. So, he's nice.
VRUNA:
Sorry, whats his name?
KACHKAR:
POASA. P-O-A-S-A. POASA. So, he was always nice. When he started working, he started working at Krispy Kreme and driving and we always used to I always used to call him he and he got - and we always used to talk about work and everything like that. You know, I would tell you officer and if we were - if I was messing around with him, I would - I would tell you know and were doing this and that; but we weren't and we were just chilling.
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NIELSEN:
Just doing the - and just regular buddy stuff? Hanging out. What kind of things would you do?
KACHKAR:
Just buy a six pack and sit down you know and then talk about things and because we were older. So now when we were older, a lot of these younger kids are just coming around and this and that. So we started to like you know put - put kids in their place too especially around there. Kids were coming around and - and you know they'd respect us and---
NIELSEN:
So when you were hang around with these guys, you were hanging around Regent Park? Thats where most of um - your buddies lived? This gu- this guy Steve um how long have you known him for?
KACHKAR:
I just met him at - and he - I met him and he - he was there at one party or something like that. When I was going there ---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
--- It - it was very strange for me. It was strange. The lifestyle was strange so.
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NIELSEN:
Strange in in what way?
KACHKAR:
Everybodys there and going and coming, and they're smoking all that you know and---
NIELSEN:
When you say smoking what do you mean?
KACHKAR:
Well, theyre smoking weed and that.
NIELSEN:
Weed?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Not cigarettes, smoking weed?
KACHKAR:
Smoking weed like its nothing; I guess.
NIELSEN:
So you were doing drugs?
KACHKAR:
Drinking. Yeah. So for me it was like unusual.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
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And---
NIELSEN:
Did you get into it?
KACHKAR:
No. No.
NIELSEN:
Do - do you smoke ah - you dont smoke weed? Ever?
KACHKAR:
No, I use to take you know I used to try and everything. But I don't smoke.
NIELSEN:
No? Any other drugs you take?
KACHKAR:
No sir.
NIELSEN:
Never tried ah any other illegal drugs?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
No. Even - even when I drink if my in-laws are home; I says were gonna (sic) drink they say; no, no we don't wanna (sic) drink and so um---
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NIELSEN:
You don't drink either?
KACHKAR:
I do drink, but I when I drink, I just become you know I become more open and---
NIELSEN:
You lose your inhibitions.
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I just say things that I say and---
NIELSEN:
That you ah, wouldnt say when you are
KACHKAR:
No, I would say it; but when I'm drinking its like it's different. It's hard to explain. It's better I don't anyway. It's not good for you.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Do you drink a lot?
KACHKAR:
No. Not even beers.
NIELSEN:
No.
KACHKAR:
Not even beers. No, sir.
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NIELSEN:
So when you drink and what and what would you normally drink?
KACHKAR:
I drink, I don't know maybe make a drink with the wife, a cocktail or something and if its something nice and then we drink it and I just giggle.
NIELSEN:
You just get happy?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I just giggle.
NIELSEN:
Do you ever have any - any problems with ah drugs or alcohol?
KACHKAR:
No sir.
NIELSEN:
Never?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
This guy Steve; so you know him since about 2000? Whens the last time you seen him?
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KACHKAR:
By New Year when I came to town and that's why I'm having all these dates um one - I thought it was just after New Year's because on New Years, I went - wanted to go home.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
I went home because I was - I went home and they were eating and they just didn't they were standing by the door and when I came in, my kids said, oh, he's here again, he's here back so.
NIELSEN:
So when you say New Year's are you talking about January 1st?
KACHKAR:
Something like that.
NIELSEN:
Like regular New Year's or some other New Year's?
KACHKAR:
No just regular New Year's.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So then I just turned around and I walked back to um walked back to ah the bus stop.
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NIELSEN:
Now when you say you went to see them you're talking about your wife and your children?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Is that the last time you saw them? Can you tell me about that, what happened then? Okay, this is New Year's?
KACHKAR:
I think so.
NIELSEN:
And you went to their house?
KACHKAR:
I think they were eating and getting ready to eat or whatever and I just went in and I didnt - I just went in and they were all looking.
NIELSEN:
You went inside?
KACHKAR:
No, just a little bit.
NIELSEN:
So youre just in the doorway and what happened?
KACHKAR:
They just said you're not welcome and I was prepared for that already. I knew that. That happens often.
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NIELSEN:
Why? Why were you not welcome?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. They dont tell you - they wouldn't tell me you know?
NIELSEN:
They wouldnt tell you? Is it is this was that something that had been going on for a while ah Richard, that you weren't welcome there?
KACHKAR:
Ah, like when her parents came and I went picked up her parents from the airport, everything is cool and when they wanted to go to Niagara Falls it's all cool we go; they buy their shirts and everything and we get home, come downstairs; oh you have to go um.
NIELSEN:
Now whose parents is that?
KACHKAR:
My wife's parents.
NIELSEN:
Your wife's parents?
KACHKAR:
They came in from town and all their relatives came into town; I said fine I'm in and out. You know what I know it's - I know it's
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not right. Its like right now you could say okay get lost and then - and then and then say okay Richard come in and get lost you know; I - I would go with it. Because you have your authority and you have your right you're an off- you know and you you have---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I'm just saying manners is your own business people.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
If you wanna (sic) tell me, you tell me. But if you don't want to tell me, you don't have to tell me. But they werent telling me and then they says oh you have to go so here I go.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
KACHKAR:
Like in summer; like when her parents were here in summer.
NIELSEN:
Last summer?
KACHKAR:
It was hotter days.
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NIELSEN:
Was it last summer of 2010?
KACHKAR:
This this last summer we had the eight. Yeah, the last summer.
NIELSEN:
Of 2010?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
So her parents came to town?
KACHKAR:
Her parents - her parents - her her sister and brother from Iran. Her other mother-in-law, their two kids. Had like 12 people in the house and they just didn't want me around for sure. So, I just packed my bag and I go. I go to Stevie's house because I had a key for Stephen's house.
NIELSEN:
Is this Stephen BROWN?
KACHKAR:
Stephen BROWN.
NIELSEN:
Stephen BROWN---
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
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NIELSEN:
---in Regent Park?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and he had a room on.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
But he's a nice guy, You know he cooks and everything and were okay and nobody comes in that room when I'm there.
NIELSEN:
You guys are good buddies?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I think so. He he does his thing. He respects me a lot and you know he does and he always helps me.
NIELSEN:
So you had some problem with your wife's parents?
KACHKAR:
No, I didn't have any problem--- it was nothing just - they just came and after we went out to Niagara Falls and everything and I came down. Its like oh good were gonna (sic) have an evening and go to - and she just said she said you have to go.
NIELSEN:
Who said you had to go?
KACHKAR:
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My wife.
NIELSEN:
Your wife. How did you feel about that?
KACHKAR:
Just - used to it already. I was used to having my bag ready already that's how I am.
NIELSEN:
Now you told me initially that you weren't living there at that time?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Now were you staying there from time to time? (KACHKAR nods head) How often would you stay there?
KACHKAR:
Few days. You know a few days here and there and then. Any time I was there I would be like in the basement. I wouldn't even come out of the basement and that would make her mad and she - and she was mad because I'm not allowed to be there. Because they gave her that on special condition.
NIELSEN:
M-hm. You mean the?
KACHKAR:
The apartment.
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NIELSEN:
The ah the unit?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, the unit.
NIELSEN:
So did they - the understanding was that she could live there---
KACHKAR:
With the kids.
NIELSEN:
---did that, did that have to do with um some kind of income she was getting or?
KACHKAR:
Income and our arguments, and our misunderstanding with the kids.
NIELSEN:
So um when did that become an issue?
KACHKAR:
Those things are always like issues and ever and every movement with her is like kind of like that you know? I can - I can go there I know the managers there and everything---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
go walk the dogs. I don't have any restraining order or anything like that.
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NIELSEN:
So you got no legal restraining order or nothing? So um---
KACHKAR:
Its when they need me basically they need me; when they don't need me they kick me out of the house, thats all.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Were you providing any source of ah financial support to your family?
KACHKAR:
Well, when I work, I was working Id always work. Id go work with agencies and ah theyd always call me.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So, I'd get up early 4 o'clock, she would make breakfast you know I take my little lunch, and go work and that's what was happening; my my first job was like working at um this plastic company in Belleville in the plastic company they make hand dispensers. So, I do really well when I go into these companies---
(TIME IS 1:00:43 VIDEO RECORDING STOPPED

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WORKING THE FOLLOWING PORTION IS AUDIO)

NIELSEN: M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---with my tool making experience. I do really well and I get even the jobs $10 dollars an hour but they're paying the $15 dollars an hour so I've got a $10 dollar attitude and they've got a $15 dollar expectation. So, but it didn't matter; I would work always and they would pick me up and plus they pick you up and you - and they charge you $10 dollars.
NIELSEN:
So you you're making your - you're making money by doing temporary jobs?
KACHKAR:
Ah, yeah and Ill get and not only temporary, I worked at Sleighgrove (ph). Any job I get into, I get in.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
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Nice and welcomed.
NIELSEN:
Did you stay long there?
KACHKAR:
Oh, yeah. I stayed long like six months, seven months.
NIELSEN:
Then how would - why would you leave the jobs that you got?
KACHKAR:
Its over the contract but theyre making heaters and things like that so when that's over I just have to look for a new job.
NIELSEN:
And this is through a job placement agency so there's like a contract they go to the agency---
NIELSEN:
---look for people for a certain period of time? Is that what you're talking about you would say for that length of time; and sometimes I know ah from ah other people's experience ah people get to stay on of those jobs. Did that ever happened to you, did anybody ever offer you---
KACHKAR:
Um---
NIELSEN:
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---full-time jobs?
KACHKAR:
---that would be creepy and it had become such a - such a big deal for those people like---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---I was working for Ferrero Roche, Ferrero Roche the chocolate factory at the time.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
Packaging and everything. I mean you know they got the brown shirts and then the blue shirts and all that; and I have my white coat, I'm happy with my white coat. I'm happy; I don't need a brown shirt or anything.
NIELSEN:
So when you would make money would you provide some some money to your wife?
KACHKAR:
Oh, yeah.
NIELSEN:
How often would you do that?
KACHKAR:
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Every - anytime I had money. I would---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
--- go shopping or - or pay something. Pay for my ah, pay for something.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Now are we talking recent - recently?
KACHKAR:
Ah, recently it was hard. Ah recently I was working with a construction company and we were I was - I was supervise the the um 333 ah the Bay - Adelaide Centre.
NIELSEN:
So you were gonna (sic) supervise?
KACHKAR:
Supervise the construction project at - for the for that for the downstairs.
NIELSEN:
The project?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And whats ah - what are - are you trained to do that?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah, supervise - well, in construction, Im - with my architecture and the plans I can read drawings. I'm very good at reading drawings.
NIELSEN:
Were you actually working for a company?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
What was the name of the company?
KACHKAR:
The company was um Renovate All and its, so I was helping him with other projects, but he wanted me to manage that project. So I was---
NIELSEN:
Who - who's he?
KACHKAR:
Um, Maroon - Marone ZATAR.
NIELSEN:
Marone ZATAR? So he was your boss? He hired you - when did he hire you?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember the date exactly it was in ah May or something. So it was on and off.
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NIELSEN:
Of last year?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And he hired you to be a supervisor at a construction site?
KACHKAR:
No he hired me first just to come on and we were building a house and doing things though.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So, he eventually um and you know he's got that leave ah the new contract.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So he wanted me to be supervisor and be there and ah do those things. I am good at that. I am good at that because---
NIELSEN:
You are good at?
KACHKAR:
Making sure, like, the protocols with the security downstairs. No contractors - you don't leave doors open; I had no problem
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telling contractors or whatever move their vans or Im kind of always out there.
NIELSEN:
So you're a good supervisor? A good site supervisor? Are you still working for him? When did you stop working for him?
KACHKAR:
Like I was working and then I called um - then he called me, he said oh job starting, but I had already started working with ah Ferrero Roche in the chocolate factory.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
KACHKAR:
May again; I don't know.
NIELSEN:
Of last year?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Of 2010?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
So---
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KACHKAR:
I started with him. I went in to work with him, and doing construction and doing that and cleaning up the houses, getting them ready, waiting kind of supervisor labour work.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I mean his house was finished and he thought that we we would go to other projects too to fix, he would have these other homes to go to. He would also take me, wed go fix them up and things like that. Id use his van and so on - so then now this - this one came along and this to the building of a sushi restaurant for Blow Fish Sushi Restaurant.
NIELSEN:
Right. Wheres that?
KACHKAR:
The one on King Street. I've never been to that one.
NIELSEN:
In Toronto?
KACHKAR:
In Toronto.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
So he now wanted me to supervise that project. So I had already started when I go into the building I always have to go downstairs with my ID you know for the ah security and so on. Any contractor who comes in had to come with me. Even in the beginning there the first contractor would come in and I say hold on here is different. So I was just Id just be myself. So that's what I'm saying and then - and then I really wa- I want it and then I would come back for some meetings and so on that's when my in-laws were in town. So about when that happened then I came back and the agency called me again. The agency calls me almost every morning.
NIELSEN:
Okay and what agency is that?
KACHKAR:
I think um Universal Staffing or CNN Staffing.
NIELSEN:
Is that in Toronto?
KACHKAR:
In St. Catharines.
NIELSEN:
In St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
Every day theyd call me even if for issues - theyd call me.
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NIELSEN:
And - and is that because youre a good ah - you're a good worker?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I'm a good guy. I get out there, I do my thing and nobody - and nobody ever heard prob- problems you know and they like me a lot. So ah you know when they call, if they have a nice job; I don't like to go out to those other chicken places, killing chickens and whatever. I don't do those things and certain jobs. So---
NIELSEN:
Just ah this so the job that you were doing like a construction supervisor; why is it that you stopped working there?
KACHKAR:
Well, it - it was on hold because he was getting - they were getting their contractors together. They had to get some funding together, proof of funds to get their contracts together to get their team together.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So I went back to St. Catharines ah for money. As soon as it's not working there because Im staying at Stevie Bs. Steve Stephen's house.
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NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
And as soon as this - this job is not right and so after work Id come there and after and then - and then he says oh hed call me he says, oh, I don't need you for this week. That's it, I go, I go home now. I come back to St. Catharines. So then I go to St. Catharines and try - I go to the wifes for a few days you know hang out there until - until waiting that so when I got there the next day - Universal Staffing - when I'm working at Universal when I'm working ---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
She - I can - I can be there. You know I can stay there and just mind my business and come and go. That's what happens.
NIELSEN:
When you're working for Universal?
KACHKAR:
When I'm working; yeah, I have a pay cheque and I - I can come home.
NIELSEN:
And and your wife doesn't mind it?
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KACHKAR:
No. Because she's on a limited budget, I understand her too and even when she is, I don't take from her budget you know and if we eat - we eat a little sandwich or whatever. Were not big spenders.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So when I came, I already had that job with um Ferrero Rocher and I was there and it was a good job it was like - it was good for me. It was a big, big factory and I was working on a line and everything. He said come back he says, I need you. I says well I need like a week.
NIELSEN:
Is that in Toronto Ferrero Rocher?
KACHKAR:
No, theyre in Brampton.
NIELSEN:
In Brampton?
KACHKAR:
But that's through an agency in St. Catharines.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
So that's how much I work I go I get it through an agency and go there and they would pay $15 dollars to take you out there in the van - and theyd pick you up and then they bring you home.
NIELSEN:
From where - where were you living when you were working in Brampton?
KACHKAR:
I think I was staying in my building. I have a shop in Geneva Street in St. Catharines. I have a little shop there that I stay---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---when it's warm. Because I was trying to winterize it---
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---because Im waiting for my GST back and everything.
NIELSEN:
Is that 70 Geneva? How long have you had that for?
KACHKAR:
Like 2005, I bought that.
NIELSEN:
You bought that?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah when the wife moves there I bought that and I was living there.
NIELSEN:
How much did you pay for that?
KACHKAR:
$29,000 dollars.
NIELSEN:
29,000 eh?
KACHKAR:
I didn't even know that building; ah because I didn't even know when I found it and I went. It's a small building. I needed a place for me. So there was---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---a little shop there and the guy had a good little day room in there. But I did some renovations; I took everything out and then I tried to stay there. I had my couches and everything and I changed it again.
NIELSEN:
So you were living there---
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
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NIELSEN:
---part of the time?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I put a new door up and things. It's a dangerous area there though. So I'm not dangerous; but it's a weird area.
NIELSEN:
Weird weird and dangerous how? What do you mean?
KACHKAR:
Um like those guys at night time. Those crack heads and things on - by the Salvation Army. It's Queen are you familiar with St. Catharines?
NIELSEN:
I've been there a couple of times. Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Yeah, theres some weirdos (sic) out there walking around.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So that - that's the kind of danger youre talking about?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, like my neighbours even the neighbours there or I bring---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I brought couches and things like to move in and I went to Toronto and I came back and everything is gone and my
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neighbour says well those guys took it. So from day one, I had problems again. Well, probably.
NIELSEN:
Richard, you - you said that ah your wife didn't mind you staying um on Welland Avenue when you were working. Were you working all the time or were there times were you wouldn't be working?
KACHKAR:
Um no, mostly I was working or going to training. I did ah I was working with Krispy Kreme Donuts driving there and do doing deliveries.
NIELSEN:
Where is that?
KACHKAR:
Theyre in Mississauga on Mavis. Mavis and um a big area there; Heartland.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
That area there.
NIELSEN:
When did you do that?
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KACHKAR:
It was in 2007. So I was driving the trucks and I - so I would leave here at 5 - I would leave here like 4 in the morning, catch the first bus to - to Toronto and then get - get back on the Go train and go back to Mississauga and then catch the bus and go to work get my truck and go do my deliveries out in Oakville and then out back to Brampton, back to Whitby, Ajax. Basically finish at about 9 or 10 and then come back and go back and get back downtown and go back home. Because I had nowhere to stay in Toronto.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
It was just like---
NIELSEN:
How long did you work for Krispy Kreme for?
KACHKAR:
For over a year.
NIELSEN:
For over a year?
KACHKAR:
Over a year. I was just delivering to their Sobeys stores going there, picking them up, delivering them. They lost the contract so I was on unemployment.
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NIELSEN:
You were on unemployment?
KACHKAR:
After that. So unemployment; I went to the I was at this um - I followed a program---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and you could upgrade your skills and everything so I took heavy equipment - heavy equipment operator and truck driver training.
NIELSEN:
Where did you take that?
KACHKAR:
At um - in St. Catharines at um a Truck - Canada Transport Ca- Transport Canada Training.
NIELSEN:
In St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
In St. Catharines.
NIELSEN:
Okay. When did you take that?
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KACHKAR:
It was maybe 2008. But you do Im I'm not sure of the dates. All the dates - like really theyre different. I mix up days a lot. But it was after that.
NIELSEN:
It was after that?
KACHKAR:
After the Krispy Kreme. I went and did a like theres a way you take your you go and you do your resume then you get upgraded and then they take your um - they take your um - not everybody gets it a lot of people want to do things.
NIELSEN:
How did you get it though?
KACHKAR:
Just by being ah being um qualified to to do that; to do the heavy equipment and the truck driving so.
NIELSEN:
But had you had training or experience in that before?
KACHKAR:
Ah, I operated equipment; heavy equipment like that.
NIELSEN:
When you say qualified, what do you mean?
KACHKAR:
Like I'm technically able to do that---
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NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---to drive those things and stuff like.
NIELSEN:
Based on your experience and education?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I think so and - and it was something, it was definitely something new.
NIELSEN:
Alright.
KACHKAR:
So to hop in a - in an excavator.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
First you know to - they teach you what this is and that it is and then you just get in it and there's a big area and then you just start going; and then you just start learning the scoop and you start learning all the techniques and what it is and how to put the foot and all the ah landing gear down and so I became like an expert in ah heavy equipment. Bulldozer and backhoe, ah an excavator and um grater.
NIELSEN:
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Its a lot of heavy machines.
KACHKAR:
I operated all those. I did all my times, the morning until night I was there, to do three shifts.
NIELSEN:
Now how long did you go to school for that for?
KACHKAR:
That I went for just a few months. A few months and then after that was finished, I went back to class for my ah AV.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So, I ah got in the - the truck. The big 18 wheeler.
NIELSEN:
Right. What happened?
KACHKAR:
I started to use that thing too. First to start to get it going.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Get gears and get going and---
NIELSEN:
Were you good at it? Yeah. What, did you get a certification?
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KACHKAR:
So then I did - and I started to hook up the trailer, back up the trailer and I jumped in the trailer, drive around. I used to drive around all the Niagara region you know. Keep it on the road Ritchie, stay on the road because sometimes - it's a technique for a 53 foot truck.
NIELSEN:
I imagine it would be.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. It's hard to keep and plus in Niagara---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---the roads the way they are it's bumpy rough roads. So I - I think I did well with that and then at that time there was ah that strike. I went to go - to get my license. I have my licenses for heavy equipment.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
But to do you get your license for your AV, you have to go to um the Ministry there and you have to drive out to Brantford or somewhere because they were closed on strike; and ah I got I did my ah I got my air brake the Z and everything and I went for a ride with a guy---
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NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
--- it seemed okay. But I was nervous or whatever, I was grinding too many gears and I was grinding some gears and then I was at the intersection I let some lady go and I Im in the intersection.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So, I said let her go and he said youre not supposed to do that or something - you know and then backing up - backing up and I - I was okay but I don't know the guy - one of my trainers told me not to look out the window or whatever and so I - I didn't pass that test.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So you didn't get your AZ?
KACHKAR:
I didn't, I got my Z but not the AZ.
NIELSEN:
And you didnt get ah the A part?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah and so I called the school and everything and they said well they couldn't really do much. So now here I spent all that time and I spent $18,000 dollars grant.
NIELSEN:
Where did you get the grant from?
KACHKAR:
Thats from the government they give that.
NIELSEN:
To take that course? Okay.
KACHKAR:
$18,000 dollars.
NIELSEN:
$18,000 dollars worth?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
So at the end of it all did you - did you graduate? Did you graduate?
KACHKAR:
I graduated and they said oh theres a work placement and everything and that started to become all kind of fake too. There's no work placement.
NIELSEN:
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So you never got a job?
KACHKAR:
No. I was---
NIELSEN:
In that in that line of work?
KACHKAR:
Theres no bulldozer, no heavy equipment going on or whatever. So I have all those certificates so here I am and---
NIELSEN:
Have you worked with heavy equipment after getting that certificate? Never eh? Listen I sort of would like to take you back again to um - we've talked about a lot of stuff. But you were talking about when the last time is that you saw your wife is New Years New Years you think it was?
KACHKAR:
I don't think I was well. Something was wrong with me.
NIELSEN:
What do you think was wrong with you?
KACHKAR:
Well, I was just walking around and well I have no family and - I just don't have and I didnt I felt bad.
VRUNA:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
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KACHKAR:
I just felt bad like. Like I just felt bad walking around and I didn't have family and so I was staying in - that shelter in St. Catharines.
NIELSEN:
Which shelter is that?
KACHKAR:
A shelter in Southridge.
NIELSEN:
Southridge?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
How long had you been saying there?
KACHKAR:
Like a week or so. I was staying there and everything was fine there, but I didn't like it either. It was weird. People at night getting up and going in and out and---
NIELSEN:
Where you staying before you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
At home.
NIELSEN:
What shelter was that?
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KACHKAR:
In - on Welland Avenue.
NIELSEN:
On Welland?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
With ah Maro and and the children?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Yeah. But I know like that I knew that morning Im gonna (sic) go, I have to go you know. I knew that I wanted to go. Because I could feel - somehow they like it just to give me the boot.
NIELSEN:
What do you mean whose they?
KACHKAR:
My wife and the kids and my son. Like my son won't come out; if I'm at home, he doesn't come out and eat.
NIELSEN:
Why is that? Ah, do you have a problem with your son?
KACHKAR:
No. Um I went - he was sick last year or last Christmas whatever and he got very sick and I was there for him. I helped him out and everything and then he just - he just has his own private - private things. He goes out he does his things.
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NIELSEN:
So up to um - before you went to the shelter you were staying at home with your wife and children?
KACHKAR:
Ye- well, yeah but it was a - it was ah like that one of those um I'm really not supposed to be there at that time you know that's - sometimes they don't want me there even in the morning to go walk the dogs or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Now when you say stay there like you - you're sleeping there?
KACHKAR:
Id stay on the couch in the basement. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
So you're not sleeping with---
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
---with Maro - and how---
KACHKAR:
I sleep alone.
NIELSEN:
---and how long had you been staying there?
KACHKAR:
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Like off and on all these times.
NIELSEN:
Off and on? Now when you say often on and you go to stay there, how long would you stay for?
KACHKAR:
Three, four days.
NIELSEN:
Okay and then why would you leave?
KACHKAR:
Because even when I get there, it's like you're not staying long are you? It's like..
NIELSEN:
Whos saying that?
KACHKAR:
Like the wife and my kids why is he here?
NIELSEN:
So both your kids and your wife don't want you there? You wanna (sic) be there because they're your family right?
KACHKAR:
I do. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Is that the reason you go back? But you're saying - did they actually tell you they don't want you there? How does it make you feel? It's got to be pretty tough.
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KACHKAR:
Yeah. Well, I'm sure it happens to people so I just walk out.
NIELSEN:
Yeah, people have their problems is that ah and how long has that been going on for like that?
KACHKAR:
I think for a long time she's been doing that to me since I met her.
NIELSEN:
and you keep going back?
KACHKAR:
It's not that I'm going back, like Im just you know its like you go to a job and you have somebody there that's always doing that and right you go there.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
I have my job. I take care of my kids right?
NIELSEN:
Now when you go back, are you being asked to come back or are you going back unannounced?
KACHKAR:
No, I go like - I go I go back quietly again. Just sort of go back again and like---
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NIELSEN:
Is it kind of the same thing every time? You stay for a few days and then they ask you to leave? How do they ask you to leave? What do they say?
KACHKAR:
Just like even at night time, were there, we're sitting; my wifes there, were sitting, were having tea and my daughter would just like tell me to F off and just like for no reason.
NIELSEN:
No reason, just tells you to F off?
KACHKAR:
I look at the wife and the wife is like smiling and ah you guys are strange and I go start putting I go start putting on my coat and I'm gone.
NIELSEN:
Why would they say that to you? Had you - had you said something to your daughter or your wife that - that would cause them to say something like that? No. So they told you and they asked you to leave?
KACHKAR:
Lots of times.
NIELSEN:
And where do you go when you - when you leave?
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KACHKAR:
I just go walk. I walk all the way. Id walk to St. Catharines. I walk downtown St. Catharines. I walk all those places. That's how I meet all these people; street people.
NIELSEN:
And when they - when they ask you to leave how do you feel?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. I'm just like - I just feel ah I don't know. Like you go to a job and you get fired and you you know?
NIELSEN:
It can't - it cant make you feel very good.
KACHKAR:
No, I don't feel good, but again again like I don't really take it to heart really. I do - I get upset and everything and I just I just go walk it off.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Go downtown and I talk to people or whatever. It's just---
NIELSEN:
So when you leave, where - where would you stay at?
KACHKAR:
I just go to my shop my building.
NIELSEN:
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To your shop? On Geneva.
KACHKAR:
Geneva. Yeah. I put the heat on yeah, I put the heat on there, stay there. The next thing you know people are coming there bringing me stuff from the Salvation Army; food and---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Its the weirdest thing.
NIELSEN:
Tell me about the last time that you you saw your wife on New Years?
KACHKAR:
There was like when - they didn't even want to see me. I just turned around.
NIELSEN:
Who did you speak to when you went there?
KACHKAR:
I think my wife was there, my son was inside and Ashley was inside.
NIELSEN:
Okay and what was said?
KACHKAR:
You can't come - you cant come here, you can't stay here.
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NIELSEN:
And who told you that?
KACHKAR:
I think Mar- Maro did. Maro.
VRUNA:
Pardon me? Im sorry?
KACHKAR:
Maro, the wife.
VRUNA:
Maro?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIESLEN:
So Maro told you you cant stay here. And did you say anything to her?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
And what happened after that? What did you do?
KACHKAR:
I just turned around and I started walking back to um - takes like an hour to walk. I had my sweater and my coat. That's what I remember it was cold out, but I had no gloves on, I had no hat, but I wasnt feeling cold.
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NIELSEN:
Alright.
KACHKAR:
I just walked back and then I walked back and and um I just walked back and went to the bus station.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I bought a ticket. Was a ticket, the next ticket to Toronto, 7, 8 o'clock. I came back.
NIELSEN:
Did you get on the bus? Were you by yourself? So what happened after you got on the bus?
KACHKAR:
I just arrived to Toronto, got off the bus, I walked downtown. You know Toronto of course?
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
I walked down Dundas Street just I walked all the way to my ah - I didn't even have any clothes with me.
NIELSEN:
Did you have um - a suitcase or anything like that? What did you have with you?
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KACHKAR:
Nothing - just my coat, my shoes.
NIELSEN:
Just what you were wearing?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Did you have money on you?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
You had no money? How much did it cost you for the bus ticket?
KACHKAR:
Like $22 dollars I had. Because I saved when I was staying originally at this house which they were giving us two dollars a day or something. I was saving that.
NIELSEN:
Thats the only money you had? Just what you got from the shelter? Did you have any money in the bank? Do you have any credit cards? Um are you under any financial, do you have financial problems?
KACHKAR:
Not really. No. No.
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NIELSEN:
No. You just don't have any money in the bank?
KACHKAR:
No money, no.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I have a I had a jeep and it was stolen. I was parking it across the thing and one day I come and its gone. Thats normal all my stuff was stolen; couches, everything I have.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
So so so sometimes they even give me insurance if I go out to buy a couch and they say oh and do you need insurance I say, no, no, I dont need it and we - and well give it to you. So, I would call the police. I called the police a lot over there. It's better now, way better now.
NIELSEN:
On Geneva Street?
KACHKAR:
Before you couldn't leave your bike out there one second. People would jump on it. Its weird.
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NIELSEN:
Ah, just to go back to your ah so you - you got a ticket to Toronto. Why would you why would you do that? Why did you get a ticket to Toronto?
KACHKAR:
Just I wanted I said I said you know thats it Im gonna (sic) go to Toronto and start working ah in Toronto.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Because if I work in St. Catharines, I need my wife's support to go there you know to have some lunch and have something Im cooking. It's not that I can't, but when I'm alone I get depressed or whatever. I've been alone before. I used to live there on Vine Street.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
I used to live by myself.
NIELSEN:
Vine Street in St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I had to do that when she moved new - and went from we moved from the apartment she went to a house. I needed to go out get my own house too so I got a - a little apartment there;
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and all those guys downstairs all the crack heads or whatever making noise and everything. But the guy told me upstairs dont bring problems.
NIELSEN:
Did you get depressed?
KACHKAR:
I get very depressed by myself and - and sitting there and---
NIELSEN:
Now when you say depressed?
KACHKAR:
I don't want to eat, I don't want to go anywhere. I just and I - I don't want to hear anything and I just don't.
NIELSEN:
Have you seen a - a doctor for depression? Have have you ever um---
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
---so you were getting sad -- is that what youre saying?
KACHKAR:
Its not sad it's just like you lose all your anything. You just lose everything. You dont care about things. Like if I if I was ah walking across the street and its a red light and Im walking
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and the cars are gonna (sic )come and hit me and Im just walking.
NIELSEN:
And thats because of how youre feeling?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
like you dont care?
KACHKAR:
I dont care.
NIELSEN:
Is that what it is? Is that a good way of saying it?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
And so youve never seen a doctor about that?
KACHKAR:
I went I went like in Toronto, I went and even that day I went to the hospital. I wanted to see somebody she says oh you have to wait and see. It was one of those things that was never gonna (sic ) happen.
NIELSEN:
Which day is that that you went?
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KACHKAR:
I dont recall. It was like the same day that I went to the shelter. I went there and then I went back to the shelter. So she said oh you wait, so you wait and I said Im gonna (sic) fall down Im not feeling good. I really feel bad. I never felt that bad in my life -- I dont know why, but it was happening to me.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And ah when I was staying there, there was other people saying oh my moms got theyre yelling at me my moms got cancer she has to wait or whatever and I remember somebody fell out of their chair or something.
NIELSEN:
And this is in the hospital?
KACHKAR:
In the waiting room. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
But do you remember which hospital that was?
KACHKAR:
I think it was St. Beadman or something. I dont remember; I just came through the side.
NIELSEN:
This is after you came to Toronto?
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KACHKAR:
Because when I went to Stevies house---
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
---hes weird. Stevies weird - drinks too much, talks too much. I have no idea what hes talking about. They have inside jokes right?
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Their own thing - I don't get involved in that. You know at at night time when Im trying to sleep, theyre still playing cards and he drinks and so---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I even sit in the hallway and theres so many times Im telling him I got to go I cant stay here. He holds me back. He thinks he can hold me back.
NIELSEN:
He doesnt want you to leave?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I told him, I says dont do that one time, two times; dont do that.
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NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Never do that Im gonna (sic ) lie down if you make noise, Im gonna again try it again - and thats it. Id push him to the side, I move out.
NIELSEN:
So tell me about so you get on a bus to Toronto and um what happens when you get to Toronto? You dont have anything you dont have any money, you have just the clothes that youre wearing? What do you do?
KACHKAR:
I just get to um to ah I go to Stevie Bs house.
NIELSEN:
So you went to S you went to Steve Bs house. And uh was that at night or was it day time when you got there?
KACHKAR:
Night time.
NIELSEN:
Night time? So you actually got to his house at night time did you go into his house? Okay. Do you remember what time you got there? Steve Bs house?
KACHKAR:
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In the evening or something.
NIELSEN:
Evening?
KACHKAR:
7, 8. He was surprised to see me, but thats how I am.
NIELSEN:
Okay. But he let you come in?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
And tell me what happened. Why did (Inaudible) how long did you stay with Steve B?
KACHKAR:
To that I dont I remember I went to the shelter.
NIELSEN:
You went you stayed until you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
No, I went that night. I didnt sleep but the next day I says, I the next day I said I better go to the shelter. I walked all over Toronto and then I went to the shelter.
NIELSEN:
So you walked all over Toronto? And ah which shelter did you go to?
KACHKAR:
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Ah one on um Dundas on Dundas and Parliament.
VRUNA:
Im Im sorry Richard?
KACHKAR:
I dont know the name of it.
VRUNA:
Youre covering your face so I cant hear you.
KACHKAR:
Sorry, I dont know the name of it.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Was the name of Good Shepherd; I think.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So had you ever been there before?
KACHKAR:
So, I lined up and then we went and had lunch and saw a few guys oh Richie, Richie. I know a few guys from there.
NIELSEN:
Richie?
KACHKAR:
They call me that.
NIELSEN:
That - is that what they call you?
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KACHKAR:
So we had our spaghetti. It was nice because I wish I had known earlier. I wish I had known earlier about that place.
NIELSEN:
Now you said something about um you went to the hospital. Did you go to the hospital before you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
I thought I had to go to the hospital because I wasnt feeling good. Like now Im not feeling good.
NIELSEN:
Okay. How are you feeling right now?
KACHKAR:
Im feeling bad. Im feeling the same way like that. Confused I dont know why? Time when I went or why and Im just Im just confused.
NIELSEN:
You feel confused right now?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and the the my - I'm not supposed to even be talking he says I'm not supposed to talk. I'm supposed to wait for a lawyer.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
But you're asking me questions just pertaining to you know these facts so.
NIELSEN:
You - you know if you want to answer you can, if you don't thats up to you, its your choice.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Up to this point, after this point I think I think it was right what you asked because its about that guy you know. Anyways, Im gonna (sic ) be honest theres no um and theres no other way. But up to this point, I dont know somebody did somebody put pills in my drink or what happened like that. Thats where Im at right now.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
And and its very unusual for me and - and it seems that way. It seems that way for me.
NIELSEN:
Somebody put some pills in your drink?
KACHKAR:
I wasn't sure what happened, but I wasn't normal. Because if I was normal and you met me---
NIELSEN:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
--- you would see I'm a different person. Im different - I go to work. I come to work, you see me having my break. But now I feel different. Something happened to me. So after this - after that---
NIELSEN:
So today you feel different than when?
KACHKAR:
Well, I - no Ive been feeling bad; the same way I've been feeling bad. I went to the doctors on that day.
NIELSEN:
The day you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
The day I went to the shelter---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I said wheres the clinic wheres the clinic? I have to speak to somebody really somebody like.
NIELSEN:
Who did you ask that to?
KACHKAR:
To the - there's a community centre that they aro- around around Regent Park. That one on um---
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NIELSEN:
The Regent Park Community Centre?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, the centre there.
NIELSEN:
You spoke to somebody there?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I spoke to a lady and she says oh you have to go to the doctor's office. I went around the corner went there was a girl there, she her - she her veil on.
NIELSEN:
A veil?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And - and what kind of - what do you mean by that?
KACHKAR:
Just a veil like and she was in a---
VRUNA:
(UI:01)? A hajib?
KACHKAR:
---yeah. But in the doctor's office. Like I need to see a doctor please I'm not feeling good. I'm not feeling - is very important
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and um I was just losing everything, I don't know what it was. I felt something was wrong with me.
NIELSEN:
So when you say you weren't feeling well was it - did you feel, was it because you were depressed or something else?
KACHKAR:
I felt so empty and dreamed and I didn't know where I was going, what Im doing. Like how I'm here even. That's continuing now so after that and then all those events. I don't dont know and even how I get here and now Im in prison? Do you think I ever dream of that?
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
And---
NIELSEN:
Had you seen a doctor that day?
KACHKAR:
No. He came, he looked he said oh you seem okay. I said okay.
NIELSEN:
So the doctor did look at you? Now this this - is it a hospital or is it a clinic?
KACHKAR:
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I think it's a clinic.
NIELSEN:
Near the community centre? Now how far away from the the shelter is this community centre?
KACHKAR:
Like the shelter is there and you know Parliament goes this way; I think. I just came on Parliament and its in the back there and on - on ah Parliament or maybe Gerrard Street.
NIELSEN:
Thats where the clinic is?
KACHKAR:
I - Detective I'm not kidding. I'm so disoriented, I don't remember all those things, those things, where I went, which corner. I couldn't recall it.
NIELSEN:
Okay. That's fair enough. I mean you don't---
KACHKAR:
I wouldn't---
NIELSEN:
---live in Toronto so its---
KACHKAR:
No, but I know the places. Like usually Im there, usually if Im there I get up early at 5 o'clock on days - on days that I'm working I'm up Im up at 5 boom, Im gone. I get up, I get on the bus and go somewhere, I'm gone. I'm working.
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NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Its not normal for me. For me to walk around and do it's not normal.
NIELSEN:
So what you're - what you're feeling now had you felt this way before? How about in St. Catherine's? Like when you said that you were depressed?
KACHKAR:
You know I would go for a while and then Id come back. The only thing that bothers me is even - even in the morning see.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Were all at home a Sunday morning or whatever and I says all were gonna (sic) do is have a cup of coffee, take our dogs for a walk, enjoy our day.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
just start with me early in the morning youre this, youre nobody. I cant walk with you. Don't even think you're coming
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with me stuff like that. You know I used to talk a lot. Now I just keep my mouth and it's whatever.
NIELSEN:
You used to?
KACHKAR:
I used to like say you know talk. I said, well, who do you think you are and blah, blah, blah.
NIELSEN:
Youre talking to your wife?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So, I told you that. I haven't done that in a long time.
NIELSEN:
When you have an argument with with your wife, how do you how does that make you feel?
KACHKAR:
I don't have arguments with her anymore.
NIELSEN:
No?
KACHKAR:
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A long time. No, theres no arguments.
NIELSEN:
Alright. So getting back to you see you saw a doctor he took a quick look at you?
KACHKAR:
Yeah at Regent Park he looked and I says I'm not feeling good.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
He goes well, you seem okay. But even my friends there that I know them from before---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---they come by and um I don't know, you know there's a - it's a different lifestyle. It was introduced to me because I - you know at that time I didn't have anybody, so people are nice to you know. You know maybe you know maybe that guy is a thief or whatever, he does this he does that they're all doing that. It's all lifestyle they have. I don't get involved in that. I don't and I would always discourage them to do that. Why are you doing that? Especially they come and ask for money I says no and I'm not giving you any money. I am different there. I mean if you know some people that know me there quite a few people know me there. I just go and you know?
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NIELSEN:
And theyre friendly?
KACHKAR:
Theyre friendly to me. You know nice people. I don't deal with them and I don't have any business with them; and I don't smsmoke with anything and so.
NIELSEN:
So after you saw this doctor what did you do? Is that when you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I was hungry.
NIELSEN:
You were hungry?
KACHKAR:
I was hungry.
NIELSEN:
Were you hungry? Okay and so you - is that why you went to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
Well, no, I went to the shelter because yeah I thought I could go there and get um like signed up for um you know a program or something a place to stay. So - because it's hard.
NIELSEN:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I really came to the point where I know I'm really in bad shape. Because my wife cant help me, I don't have any money.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So basically, I'm on the street like all these other people.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So, I said its better just go through this.
NIELSEN:
Is that why you went there?
KACHKAR:
So, I went there and I started to feel okay. Had dinner, had everything and they says oh you come back at night in there and that.
NIELSEN:
So you had dinner during the daytime?
KACHKAR:
In the afternoon.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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VRUNA:
The evening is that what you said?
KACHKAR:
In the evening; yeah and there would be cookies, they would put cookies and everything. So I did that and then I don't know was it after that of before that? I don't recall. That's when I went to go see see the doctor.
NIELSEN:
Alright.
KACHKAR:
Because the guys I know from there too they came and sat with me too. I know if you guys - he saw me he says - he goes, Bro, you're not looking good theres something's wrong.
NIELSEN:
Who said that?
KACHKAR:
One guy I know from there from a while I don't remember his name. But he knows me.
NIELSEN:
Did are you talking in the shelter?
KACHKAR:
In the shelter. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Is it like a worker or is it just---
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KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
---he was just standing there?
KACHKAR:
Just ah somebody that I know from the - from the park there, would come and go.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So you go there during the daytime---
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
---and you had something to eat; did you then leave?
KACHKAR:
I think I went to the - to the doctor's office.
NIELSEN:
Okay and what did you do after the doctor's office?
KACHKAR:
I walked around or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Did you talk to anybody?
KACHKAR:
No.
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NIELSEN:
Anything thing happen? Did you have any arguments with anybody; any problems? How were you feeling after you left the doctor's office?
KACHKAR:
The same. Worse.
NIELSEN:
Worse and how can you - can you describe worse?
KACHKAR:
Scared, like something is going on, something's happening to me. You know what was going on, something was gonna (sic) happen.
NIELSEN:
Somethings gonna (sic) happen?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Was this something - was this a physical feeling or I'm just trying to understand how you were feeling.
KACHKAR:
No, in my mind its like something was happening and I think I was being surrounded by this environment. It just came - it just come, something happened. I don't know what happened?
NIELSEN:
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When you say this environment can you---
KACHKAR:
Everybody's out there waiting to eat, it's a normal lifestyle for them.
NIELSEN:
Okay, being on the street?
KACHKAR:
Being on the street.
NIELSEN:
And that and that was making you feel?
KACHKAR:
It made me it did something to me. It made me feel just distraught.
NIELSEN:
Because youre on the street?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
With no money?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
M-hm. Alright. Did you ever go back to the shelter?
KACHKAR:
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At night time.
NIELSEN:
You went back at night? Okay did you talk to anybody before you went in? Did you take any drugs before you went in? Were you drinking? So what happens when you go in? What did they do?
KACHKAR:
I don't know we ate or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Did you have to sign in or is there a form or something that you have to fill out?
KACHKAR:
See, I - you know what after that I can't recall now what happened? I don't remember now after that what happened?
NIELSEN:
Well, what do you remember about going into the shelter?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember anything at all? Do you remember going to sleep? Nothing at all? Do you remember speaking to anybody inside there?
KACHKAR:
Remember people were speaking, saying things, whatever.
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NIELSEN:
What were they saying?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. They were talking non I never heard such nonsense. It was just nonsense or whatever and blah, blah, blah, talking. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
What does that mean blah blah blah?
KACHKAR:
I don't know.
NIELSEN:
What kind of nonsense?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. It's unusual for me to be somewhere where people are speaking and sleeping and talking like that.
NIELSEN:
How did you feel about being in that shelter?
KACHKAR:
Good.
NIELSEN:
Was it a good shelter? Was it clean?
KACHKAR:
Well it seemed okay.
NIELSEN:
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Yeah?
KACHKAR:
The best shelter I've been in, besides that. Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Youve been in the one in St. Catharines right?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, the one in St. Catharines.
NIELSEN:
How did it compare to the one in - in St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
Massive, it was bigger.
NIELSEN:
Just bigger eh?
KACHKAR:
And I didn't like the one there---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---in St. Catharines. People getting up at night and kind of like walking around. Apparently there's a lot of drugs there. People getting kicked out for drugs.
NIELSEN:
This is the one in St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
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Yeah.
NIELSEN:
What about this one in in Toronto?
KACHKAR:
This one, I didn't have the chance to know. I don't know.
NIELSEN:
No? Did they ah - what time did they make you go to sleep? Or is there a time?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember. I don't remember.
NIELSEN:
You dont remember that at all? Okay. So do you remember ah going to the hospital?
KACHKAR:
When?
NIELSEN:
When you got injured. I know the doctors and the nurses were talking to you.
KACHKAR:
I really don't recall. All I remember is just like - I don't recall much.
NIELSEN:
What do you recall?
KACHKAR:
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Just like looking in the ambulance. Sitting in the ambulance.
NIELSEN:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
I was just taking a couple of breathes and that's it; breathe, breathe and that was just it.
VRUNA:
Sorry, Richard.
KACHKAR:
I just said a couple - just take a couple of breaths and just keep breathing, keep breathing.
NIELSEN:
How did you feel?
KACHKAR:
I didn't feel anything.
NIELSEN:
Were you hurt?
KACHKAR:
I guess so.
NIELSEN:
What - what did you feel?
KACHKAR:
Not much; I didn't feel much.
NIELSEN:
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You didn't feel much?
KACHKAR:
No. Just pain and hurting.
NIELSEN:
Where were you hurting?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. Like all over here and I don't really recall.
NIELSEN:
In your body? Your upper body. And that's when you were in the ambulance?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember how I got out. I don't remember, I dont remember what happened and then I just was in the ambulance. My arm was broken or something twisted the other way.
NIELSEN:
Your arm was twisted? Which arm? You're looking at your left arm the one you've got in a sling?
KACHKAR:
Yes, sir.
NIELSEN:
Youve got a bandage there.
KACHKAR:
All stitched and everything.
NIELSEN:
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What happened to your arm?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. It was all broken, twisted off and just---
NIELSEN:
It was all broken? And that you remember that?
KACHKAR:
I don't I just remember my arm was hurting, I looked over and it wasn't there, and my arm wasn't there.
NIELSEN:
In the ambulance?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
And what else happened in the ambulance? Do you remember the ah paramedics talking to you?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember they were just putting things on me and---
VRUNA:
Sorry, Richard you've already---
KACHKAR:
I don't remember much. I don't remember anything. Just the just seeing the ambulance go I thought I was dying.
NIELSEN:
You thought you were dying? What kind of things were they putting on you?
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KACHKAR:
I don't remember.
NIELSEN:
But you thought you were dying? Why did you think that?
KACHKAR:
The ambulance and I don't know.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I couldn't breathe. I saw some blood coming out. I was on the snow, I think they pulled me out.
NIELSEN:
You were on the snow?
KACHKAR:
I think so.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I saw blood everywhere.
NIELSEN:
So when they pulled you out, do you remember who pulled you out?
KACHKAR:
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ah---
NIELSEN:
What I'm gonna (sic) ask you is when um do you remember how you got there? You don't remember anything about how you got there? So what's your - your earliest memory you had before you got in an ambulance?
KACHKAR:
I do not remember.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember; and when you get to the shelter, do you remember signing into the shelter at night?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. It's weird because I was sleeping on the - on the plastic, I was sleeping. I was so tired.
NIELSEN:
You were sleeping on the plastic?
KACHKAR:
On the steps there that go up into the shelter?
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
I was just sleeping there.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
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KACHKAR:
At night
NIELSEN:
At night?
KACHKAR:
I think so.
NIELSEN:
Okay. So you were sleeping on the steps? Outside or inside?
KACHKAR:
Inside.
NIELSEN:
Inside. How long did you sleep there for?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember. I don't remember. Isnt it better that I get a --I speak to my lawyer and they help me out and I go all over all these things with them and then they speak to you? Isn't it better to give you a - because these answers are all like s- I don't know like.
NIELSEN:
Well were just --- I mean and that's up to you Richard; what we're trying to do is understand what's happened okay?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. You're asking about my family and everything.
NIELSEN:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
The lawyers clearly told me don't have to, you shouldnt say anything if you don't have a lawyer. I mean maybe I shouldn't have.
NIELSEN:
Thats your choice.
KACHKAR:
No but it it it I'm just saying, there's got to be some - there's got to be something happened here right?
NIELSEN:
Well?
KACHKAR:
Something happened. I was involved.
NIELSEN:
Were - were trying to understand what happened.
KACHKAR:
So.
NIELSEN:
Thats why were talking to you?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. So---
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
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KACHKAR:
--- since I haven't havent had a chance to talk to anybody and understand or what happened and everything like that; it's probably better I wait and call - call them um that lawyer and then - and that way we can talk. You know I've answered you guys a lot of questions about my past and what I do and the family and everything like that. Even if my lawyer asked me not to say that or what see, I don't know - I've never worked with a lawyer.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So.
NIELSEN:
Youve never had a lawyer before?
KACHKAR:
No. Why? Usually when I have to do something, I do it and a lawyer just snaps or whatever? I don't know. What do you need a lawyer for? There's a code book, everythings booked, everything is a lie, everything has a sub-thing, its all - you do it. But I've never been involved like this. So at this point; I need to tell you those things.
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NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Yes.
VRUNA:
Could I just ask a couple of questions to clarify something? Like with the stuff that you've already told us?
KACHKAR:
Sure.
VRUNA:
Okay. When was the last time you stayed at your Geneva address?
KACHKAR:
I don't know exactly.
VRUNA:
You don't know? Was it like - how about like - let's break it down.
KACHKAR:
Just before I came here.
VRUNA:
Just before? So---
KACHKAR:
I'm always there - everyday I go there.
VRUNA:
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Everyday?
KACHKAR:
Thats where I spend my days there.
VRUNA:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
I get my heater going and I stay there.
VRUNA:
Yeah and what kind of things do you do there?
KACHKAR:
Just sit, read, write my notes.
VRUNA:
What kind of notes do you write?
KACHKAR:
Like business things, what I want to do. I want to open a pizza place. Ah, I got to fix, what I got to fix; the doors, the roof---
VRUNA:
M-hm and -- and where do you get the money to pay for all that for?
KACHKAR:
Well, theres some grants available. Rehab um res- residential rehab programs are gonna (sic) gonna (sic) have money available for that.
VRUNA:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Or I was gonna (sic) work, do some jobs again and work---
VRUNA:
Okay. Um so---
KACHKAR:
pay me
VRUNA:
---youre saying so you remember going to see your wife right and had you you were - but you all of a sudden went to stay at the shelter at which? Southridge right? Now was that because you couldn't stay and I'm trying to - and were trying to figure out why you went to stay at the shelter.
KACHKAR:
Oh, that already needed to happen because me, I like to have aroutine.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Get up early, have my breakfast, do my job, go get my work and go---
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
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---because that's it and---
VRUNA:
And you couldn't do that at Geneva?
KACHKAR:
You cant - I can't do that at home or anything because she's like retired, she lives her life.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Like shes retired, like she has her dogs and everything like that--
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
it's good for her.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But not good for me.
VRUNA:
Okay what about at the Geneva address? Do you have like a fridge and stove to be able to do that there or a bed?
KACHKAR:
I used to. I used to.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But I cleared it out now so I can work. So I can um I wanted to insulate it.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and use it. I have my microwave and everything, my heat I turned all that off because I was gonna (sic) insulate it this year and I do it. I have a little stove and stay there.
VRUNA:
Okay. Alright so I - I understand. I was trying to understand what came - how you came about doing that.
KACHKAR:
Even at home when they tell me to leave, I would go to Geneva. I have a chair there or whatever, I have a blanket.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Then I stay there for a few hours.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
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Ride my bike.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Even in the winter.
VRUNA:
Where is your bike now?
KACHKAR:
Probably in the store.
VRUNA:
At the store? Did you have your bike that day when you went to see your wife. You said that you walked you walked?
KACHKAR:
No. No, I just walked. I didnt ride my bike.
VRUNA:
Yeah. Okay. Um you were telling us that ah the agency, this employment agency that ah you ah um called you call every day right; where would you call from or they call you?
KACHKAR:
No, they called - they called my wifes house.
VRUNA:
Your---
KACHKAR:
they called my wife's number.
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VRUNA:
Okay, and how does she get a hold of you?
KACHKAR:
I usually check in right? I'm usually there, come in or ph phone her from from my job search.
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Im either at my job search.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Im at my shop.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Or Im working.
VRUNA:
Is there a phone at your shop?
KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
Do you have a cell phone? Or did you have a cell phone?
KACHKAR:
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Ah, I had one. But, I don't usually ah - it's not usually on---
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---unless I'm starting my work every day.
VRUNA:
Oh, okay. What number is that and do you - do you remember the number for it?
KACHKAR:
Um, not really. It's a little black one I had in one of my bags where I left them; I don't know.
VRUNA:
Okay and where is your bag now? What kind of phone is it? Like is it with a dealer?
KACHKAR:
No, its a pay and talk. I think Virgin, it's a black one, I opened it---
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
its a 647. I don't hook it up much. I dont. Because a lot of people say get a phone, get a phone. Why do I need - I don't really need a phone.
VRUNA:
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Yeah. Is that phone under your name or under your?
KACHKAR:
Um, I think it's my daughter's phone because she got a new one.
VRUNA:
Okay. So your daughter gave you her phone? Okay.
KACHKAR:
Itss like a pay month to month.
VRUNA:
M-hm and how much do you pay for it?
KACHKAR:
If I put $15 dollars, it will last me a long time.
VRUNA:
M-hm. Okay. So these companies you work at and do they usually pay you cash money or do you make---
KACHKAR:
No, they pay me every week.
VRUNA:
And how do they pay you?
KACHKAR:
Just with a cheque.
VRUNA:
And you have a bank that you deal with?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. CIBC, I cash it.
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VRUNA:
In St.?
KACHKAR:
In St. Catharines?
VRUNA:
In St. Catharines. Okay. So when was the last time you got a cheque?
KACHKAR:
The last time I got paid? October.
VRUNA:
October?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
VRUNA:
Was the last time that you had got money?
KACHKAR:
October or September.
VRUNA:
Were you were you actually got a pay cheque and?
KACHKAR:
Yeah so I was working at Ferrero Rocher factory; I remember that. Because I was called back to this construction company and he said come back. If you don't come back tomorrow, don't come back. So I really wanted to come back but I had a job there, so---
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I was staying there.
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
But then that job too. They put me on a shift and theyre telling me this and that, I said no, please. No, thank you and I just and thats it, and then the next day they said we don't need you back.
VRUNA:
Okay and ah so what did you - who - where did you get money in from October til now? How were you surviving? Like it's difficult right and winter is coming and---
KACHKAR:
I know, I - I don't like I do work here and I dont know, I just have some money.
VRUNA:
Like are you getting social services giving you money? Do you qualify for like a family allowance pay or?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. I already tried.
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VRUNA:
Well, make sure you call.
KACHKAR:
I do qualify. Because I went to the shelter they would (sic) sign me up on that.
VRUNA:
M-hm. But you never actually physically got a monthly cheque from them?
KACHKAR:
No. No and I didn't need much money because like I said you know if I had stayed with the wife, I would have a little breakfast and then I'm gone all day.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And then I - I have the real food I buy from ah Giant Tiger or whatever? Sardines or whatever and eat them.
VRUNA:
But you need money from somewhere. So is it money that you ah saved or you had in the bank or?
KACHKAR:
I didn't have money.
VRUNA:
Do you have any? You said you have a CIBC account, do you have any money in that account? Nothing eh? What about um
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your identification now like your - do you ever carry a wallet or a---
KACHKAR:
I usually just carry my license, my health care and my bank card and whatever and SIN number.
VRUNA:
And where - where is that identification?
KACHKAR:
Probably in the hospital or whatever cuz (sic) they were in my pants right?
VRUNA:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
I dont know.
KACHKAR:
I don't know either.
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Thats why I'm saying?
VRUNA:
Okay. Okay. Alright. Um, have you stayed at the Good Shepherd house before?
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KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
Had you stayed in any shelter in Toronto before?
KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
No? Okay. What about um - what about do you know how long you stayed with Steve when you came?
KACHKAR:
Ah, Stevie B; sometimes I stay with him for weeks.
VRUNA:
Okay. But, I mean this time.
KACHKAR:
This time, I don't remember; a few days or something.
VRUNA:
A few days? Yeah and do you remember wha- what those few days were about or anything between you and him? I know you said he drinks a lot and plays some cards.
KACHKAR:
Normal - normal stuff, normal stuff. Hes always talking about his girls and stuff like that stupid stuff.
VRUNA:
M-hm. Do you have a girlfriend? No? No? Other than your wife? I mean you pay - you you sound it and---
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KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
---you have a treacherous relationship with ah your wife right?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I have a lot - all the girls that come by, they like to see me and we talk and nice. I respect them. Theyre all like my sisters.
VRUNA:
Okay, which girls are these?
KACHKAR:
Like friends like Stevie B has all of - every day has new girls coming over with friends and---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---a lot of girls he has---
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
---coming over.
VRUNA:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
So they come, say hi, hi Richie, how are things talk to me; The only thing I talked to them about, I want to fix my place in St. Catharines and come help me.
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Basically that's why I'm there. Theres got to be if they're not in a good situation they got to find somebody to come help me.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So that's the reason I was there too because I don't find myself any better than anybody else and I don't have any family.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
You know they have a family and things like that.
VRUNA:
And they sort of took you in right?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Yeah.
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KACHKAR:
They've always been nice to me. Even I remember sometimes I didn't have money they ordered chicken they eat, we eat or I would cook at his house. That's all.
VRUNA:
Yeah. Did you ever did he ever ask you for money to pay him?
KACHKAR:
Steve B.?
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Not really.
VRUNA:
Yeah. You said he drinks a lot, so if he was there drinking, would you partake in drinking? You don't drink anything at all? No? What do you normally drink?
KACHKAR:
I usually drink - well, nothing, just a juice or whatever.
VRUNA:
Like for breakfast when you get up in the morning what was your whats your ideal break- breakfast?
KACHKAR:
I just make tea or have some toast or something. He doesn't have much food. Make some eggs or whatever.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Or go to McDonald's---
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
---for coffee.
VRUNA:
And how do you pay for McDonald's?
KACHKAR:
Well, in fact usually I have some money on me.
VRUNA:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
This last time I don't know what happened. This last time was something in my it must be something in my something.
VRUNA:
M-hm. What about drugs that Stevie B used? Does he do any drugs like? Not prescription drugs, like crack and?
KACHKAR:
I don't know.
VRUNA:
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You don't know?
KACHKAR:
No. No. No. No.
VRUNA:
What about weed?
KACHKAR:
I don't think so.
VRUNA:
Have you ever participated in any of that? No? Have you ever tried to purchase drugs on the - on the on the street or?
KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
What about um you know in times where you needed to get money and you were really sort of destitute, did you try to - did you ever steal, rob or? For money? You're shaking your head; but?
KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
No? No. Okay. I just have a couple more.
KACHKAR:
Because I don't need to - I don't need to rob. I have some clothes. I have my - you know some food.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I never had to.
VRUNA:
Yeah. So if you wanted to get your things right now, where would they be?
KACHKAR:
I don't know.
VRUNA:
You don't know?
KACHKAR:
No.
VRUNA:
No? Okay. Does anybody else have other than yourself, who has access to your Geneva address?
KACHKAR:
Just my wife.
VRUNA:
Yeah. Okay. How does she have access?
KACHKAR:
She just has a key, she goes checks on it and stuff like that.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
She checks the mail or whatever.
VRUNA:
M-hm. Okay. Um, I just want to understand, I'm trying to understand and - I think you might have explained it but the reason why you weren't supposed to be at your wife's house.
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
VRUNA:
You keep saying that I'm not supposed to be there, Im not supposed to be there. Um is there - like what's---
KACHKAR:
When we moved to St. Catharines and I had the apartment everything was fine.
VRUNA:
Yeah.
KACHKAR:
She does her thing again. She goes out at night. I don't know where she goes. Like the same thing that you know like I had. I did.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
She goes out, I don't know where. She walks around and then and then she checked herself into the hospital.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
She checked herself in the hospital. Then she had to stay there. She was there about a month.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And since she was there for a month then the Child Protection Child Protection Services called me, and I says well, I'm not working right now and things like that and come you know. Basically, this has happened before. She leaves me with the kids, she goes, I take care of it. But this time, I said she was there I says I can't.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So they said okay wait, wait, wait. So they came and they interviewed me and so on and they found out that things were not so bad. I could take care of the kids.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
While she was in the hospital, we do with the kids now the kids will have to make dinner together. We make food together. She used to get mad when Id have the kids, I would wash my car have the kids clean the rims.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Shed have a problem with that. Clean the rims of the car. So I'm - I'm getting them to clean the rims, to feel good about themselves, clean the rims to go for a ride.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So, I don't know, understanding difference like that. But as far as the - your question again was was for what?
VRUNA:
Why you weren't supposed to be there? You keep saying, I - I wasn't allowed to be there.
KACHKAR:
Because she - she got that place in emergency situation because ah there were problems at home; violence at home or problems in the house.
VRUNA:
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M-hm. Between you and her or?
KACHKAR:
Well, you know, I never had a chance to say anything so all I know is that she went and said something. I don't without you know we could of gone to a counsellor or whatever we were having issues. But she sort of went and did her thing told them her thing. And they interviewed me and basically they said this girl needs her own place---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and I shouldn't be there.
VRUNA:
Okay and you too---
KACHKAR:
And I shouldn't have gone back there.
VRUNA:
So basically it was the ci- the city or the government gave her that housing on the condition that she was gonna (sic) be a single mom living there?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Is that?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah. Because they thought---
VRUNA:
Yeah. You---
KACHKAR:
that her
VRUNA:
(UI:01) the gist of it?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Because her condition gets bad when we argue. If somebody's not in a good shape and they argue, it makes it worse right?
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Especially, somebody like me.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So that was the thing.
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VRUNA:
Okay you just - you just said something that just - you said that she had the same thing that you have where she left at night. What - what does that mean?
KACHKAR:
Like just the way when the would just walk around all day like when you have nowhere to go.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But she had a home.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
she - nobody would tell her anything.
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
She was on her own.
VRUNA:
Well why is that the same with you are Im not
KACHKAR:
What when no when - but she comes home.
VRUNA:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I don't tell her to leave. Maybe I had dinner ready, usually I do. Dinner is ready---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
--- kids are clean everything. But she still prefers to go out like after work and when she was in Toronto ah we were in North York, she would be there by Finch and the Tim Horton's or wherever she was working there.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
She would work like 15 hours a day or whatever and then shed come home and then shed go back, go shopping again. Like just stuff like that, all night.
VRUNA:
M-hm. But how is that the same as you?
KACHKAR:
So now when she used to so she used to just leave - so now when - that's her house, it's my house she tells me that every day this is my place. So you have to go, you have to go---
VRUNA:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---and I get up and I go.
VRUNA:
M-hm.. Okay. So let me understand. When you go to a shelter you're only allowed to stay there between a certain hour and for a certain hour right? Is that correct?
KACHKAR:
No. No.
VRUNA:
Like what were the rules for the Southridge?
KACHKAR:
The shelter? (U:01).
VRUNA:
What were the rules for Southridge? What time did you have to present yourself?
KACHKAR:
Just in the morning you get up and you have a shower and you have breakfast and - and you sleep and you go into the room and you can either go to prayers or whatever.
VRUNA:
M-hm. So if you wanted to stay at the shelter during the daytime you could?
KACHKAR:
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Yeah.
VRUNA:
Oh.
KACHKAR:
I did. Thats what I was doing.
VRUNA:
Okay. In St. Catharines?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
VRUNA:
And then - but if you wanted to leave for the day what time would you have to be back by?
KACHKAR:
Oh, by 10.
VRUNA:
At night? Okay. So - so did you in those - in that period did you ever leave there and---
KACHKAR:
Yeah. A couple times.
VRUNA:
And where would you end up going?
KACHKAR:
I - I'd go to the ci- I would go to the job-search bank on Church Street.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I do job search and things like that. And then um was it one night? One night I really liked it there.
VRUNA:
At Southridge?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Yeah? Well, that's good. That's good.
KACHKAR:
I did.
VRUNA:
Yeah?
KACHKAR:
I liked it. I told the lady too; I liked it.
VRUNA:
And what - did what you like about it?
KACHKAR:
And that was like---
VRUNA:
And what did you like about it? What did you like about it?
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KACHKAR:
Just the consistency and you could eat and you could you know and you could---
VRUNA:
They took care of you right?
KACHKAR:
Well it's not that it's that is, its not that. It's not even the money it's that they have a program and then you could eat and its done and you're done now you can go do your job or do whatever; and I needed to speak to somebody there about my issues.
VRUNA:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
So and---
VRUNA:
And what were they?
KACHKAR:
I think I spoke to somebody lightly, but then I the lady came from um from welfare---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---to get me set up. So I think she got me set up there.
VRUNA:
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M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Well, she must of. I started setting up like that.
VRUNA:
Okay and so what issues did you need to speak to somebody about?
KACHKAR:
Like why Im ah you know even though they were kicking me out of the house, I feel like I still want to go and be there or I'll let, you know, be there---
VRUNA:
Right.
KACHKAR:
--- I don't want to leave ---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---its not that I don't want to leave like I usually I like to finish my thing you know so.
VRUNA:
Finish your thing?
KACHKAR:
Well the kids aren't ready yet. They're still young, my kids are still young and like at least I'd be in the picture somewhere they can call me.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I don't need to be there all the time; but just in case they need me.
VRUNA:
M-hm. Yeah.
KACHKAR:
Oh, dad heres this. Oh, I went - she wants to go camping, she wants to sleep over at a boys house.
VRUNA:
You wanted to be part of their lives?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I said I don't think so. You know - so that was it.
VRUNA:
M-hm. Okay what about so you were saying religion; are you a religious person?
KACHKAR:
Not really, no.
VRUNA:
No? Do you go to church? Were you raised in a certain kind of religion? Do you ever practice religion while you were married with your wife?
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KACHKAR:
No. Like I go Catholic school whatever, but I just --- that I dont know ---
VRUNA:
Catholic?
KACHKAR:
--- hope been there and maybe get some shut eye or whatever. I don't know what um---
VRUNA:
Did you go to church while you were in the shelter?
KACHKAR:
I went a few times.
VRUNA:
Now do they pray at the shelter?
KACHKAR:
If you want to.
VRUNA:
Yeah and did you?
KACHKAR:
A few times.
VRUNA:
Yeah? Yeah? Okay. How do you feel about religion?
KACHKAR:
Um, like I feel it's your conscience how you feel.
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VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
You know like I feel it's like how you feel like um um it's how you are like sh- it's your conscience. Like like um - and you know even like abortion I feel is wrong.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
You know, I don't like them.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I don't feel they're right. You know that I don't think those things are right. So---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---I went through one of those and I never - I cant I still don't forgive myself you know?
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
My wife was young, we were just new in Vancouver and I never accepted that yet you know. Took a life and---
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VRUNA:
Your wife did that? I'm sorry?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
That after your two children were born? Okay.
KACHKAR:
So you know I never really get closure on that.
VRUNA:
No? Did you ever try talking to your wife about that; and what did she tell you?
KACHKAR:
She wasn't well and they had to do it. She wasn't well.
VRUNA:
After she did that?
KACHKAR:
No, even before she wasn't well.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
We had two kids and a little apartment and everything and finances and stuff like that.
VRUNA:
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So is that the reason why that happened?
KACHKAR:
No there - there came a point, because I was married in Armenia, there there came a point even when my and with my first son.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
We went to the hospital - we were students and went to the hospital and even the doctor came out say oh you should get abortion. So, I don't think so like it wasn't even a question. So I had my son and I grew up my son. I wasn't - you know I grew up my son there and then - and I had to move around. I had to find a new house and like Id find a house next to the wed live at student hostels right?
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But I'd find a house with water and gas and Id say take it. The wife would always say oh you just want to take me away from my friends and stuff like that so.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
So its always something like that. I took her to Edmonton she say oh I didnt like Edmonton and its all something. It was always something.
VRUNA:
M-hm. So there was always a problem?
KACHKAR:
Always a problem. Always I never did it right. I always did---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---things like that.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I'm not sure what that has to do with this but.
VRUNA:
No, were just were just ah you know we dont know, wed like to know who Richard is right, and youve been very helpful.
KACHKAR:
Well, yeah---
VRUNA:
Right?
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KACHKAR:
---and I - and I hope that it ah you know this - this follow-up Im just telling you from my point of view how it is.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But I'm just - tomorrow you could see me and it won't affect me you know? I go do my work and it doesn't affect me. It used to affect me to go to work.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But I became immuned to it or.
NIELSEN:
It used to affect; what do you mean?
KACHKAR:
Id go to work; in the morning I would argue with the wife and I would go to work.
NIELSEN:
But it bothered you when you went to work?
KACHKAR:
Well yeah. Because I had the tool, I had the machine I started thinking about what I'm doing or. Honey, what are you doing, what are you making today? Or something its always that. So my work was always affected; and they liked me at work. In
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Vancouver I worked with ah some big companies, nice companies. High tech companies. (UI:01) technologies with smart car company and everything, but theres always some kind of little problem you come you know - would come with your little baggage of problems.
VRUNA:
M-hm. So has - obviously, you were in the hospital right? You know that right? You were.
KACHKAR:
I dont recall.
VRUNA:
At all when you were in the hospital?
KACHKAR:
No. No, nothing. I black out.
VRUNA:
So are you not wondering how youre - you came about here? Have you not questioned it or?
KACHKAR:
I remember - I remember getting up or just opening my eyes and theres like security there and then the guys come out or other guys come out say oh we discharge you and bang they just took me away. Until this day.
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VRUNA:
Are you not wondering what - what the circumstances are or what it's about or why youre here?
KACHKAR:
I have. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
VRUNA:
Yeah? Have you asked anybody about it? You havent? So arent you anxious to know why you're here? Like other than we've told you you've been charged right and you've had a couple of court appearances. Have you not inquired about what the circumstances that or particulars did you tell anyone?
KACHKAR:
Not really because there's nobody I mean so the security, Warden and everybodys giving their little opinions something - something's going on that they know and I don't know. That's what's happening. And I've never been in trouble before and Ive never been in jail before. I've never had this suit on before, I've never been shot at before---
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---or anything like that. Something happened to me tragic, I don't know why and now I'm sitting in there so.
VRUNA:
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And how does that make you feel?
KACHKAR:
You know it makes me feel like day-to-day, if something's happened; I'm hoping that I can call my lawyer, I was supposed to call at 1, but Ill call them back. I hope I have somebody who can clear me up and explain to me and sit - I'm not well now either. Like I might not even you know, it's hard for me to recall this. Probably, Im gonna (sic) go like that - like that, like back like a zombie again.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So I go lie down in my cell. I really appreciate speaking to you. Um um - couldn't imagine - like now somebody has no daddy, has no wife and trag- what a tragedy and what a person like ah ah I don't know what to say. What is what a thing to say. What a thing to happen. I don't know these people. I don't know why I did it. I don't know people are telling me everything. It's like its like a bad dream.
NIELSEN:
Now have you ever in your life have you ever had like a time period like you're youre describing where you don't remember? Has this ever happened before?
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KACHKAR:
Yeah, like things when my dad passed away and stuff like that. He passed away he called me down and I had to go down. I I went with my friend Peter from here, from Toronto. He was working at Krispy Kreme. Ah, I can't move, I cant - I'm so weak when I went to Toronto I had to pack his furniture. I - how could I go into my dads little apartment. He had a house and he had an apartment. They tell me, oh you have to pack his apartment. Why do I want to pack his apartment if he has nice things there and everything I want to just leave. I don't feel people like are gone like that, gone and gone. He might not be there but he had instructions for me. He wanted me to take the car for his son and everything and this and that. Then the girls would come yeah it's the same situation I feel.
NIELSEN:
But what - what my question was clearly you remember, but what I'm asking you was there ever a time period we've asked you about what you said you can't seem to remember is when you went to the shelter in Toronto and when you were put in the ambulance.
KACHKAR:
I don't. I don't.
NIELSEN:
Is that - have you ever experienced that before in your life?
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KACHKAR:
I don't think so.
NIELSEN:
And you're telling us today you didn't take any drugs? You weren't drinking?
KACHKAR:
I remember coming and looking over the bridge there and going like to Regent Park.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Looking over the bridge, I was gonna (sic) go I had my head over, I was just ---
NIELSEN:
What were you thinking?
KACHKAR:
Im gonna (sic) jump. I was gonna (sic) jump.
NIELSEN:
You were gonna (sic) jump?
KACHKAR:
Easy.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
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KACHKAR:
That was the day the same day; the morning of all that or the eve - one evening.
NIELSEN:
The evening?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. One evening I don't remember. I was going to Stevie's house.
NIELSEN:
Now is this when you were going to Stevie Bs house or - or after you left the shelter?
KACHKAR:
No, before the shelter.
NIELSEN:
Before the shelter?
KACHKAR:
Before the shelter and then that - then that was the evening, so that why the next morning and I think I went to Bs house stayed outside his house because he was inside drinking.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
So, I slept in the hallway. And that next morning I started to walk over, went to the hospital. I started saying I'm not feeling well; they have no room, I had to wait in line and then I went
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there, I walked away, walked all where did I walk? I walked down - I don't remember and I walked far.
NIELSEN:
So you were looking over a bridge?
KACHKAR:
Yeah on the way home.
NIELSEN:
And youre - you said you were thinking of jumping?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. It's clear you know something like that---
NIELSEN:
And when you were doing this---
KACHKAR:
---It never happened to me before.
NIELSEN:
That never happened to you before?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
Would you say that's the worst you ever felt in your life is that fair?
KACHKAR:
I don't even know why.
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NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I don't even know why. I had hope you know. Okay and so what, my wife doesnt like want me there and the kids. I thought I was over that you know --I really.
NIELSEN:
So it sounds to me um like - what seems to be the ---
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
---thing that you bring up more than anything in the time we've been talking quite a bit your relationship with your wife seems to be something that upsets you.
KACHKAR:
Not really, the relation with her; it's really not that important because you know what she's an adult, I'm an adult, I move on you know and---
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
---and in anything, I can move on, I move on. But it's a matter of me being there in case something happens to her. Who's gonna (sic) help her kids? Who's gonna (sic) - whose gonna (sic) supyou know these kids they go one day on the street and they end
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up - one day you go a kid on the street they end up giving you dope and whatever and whatever or.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Right? Guys out there, what do they know what theyre doing? At first it could be crack and then tell you to do this and do that. So for me, I'm too worried about that because she's a - she's a vulnerable kid. She only has me and her dad; she doesn't have any grandparents or any cousins or anything like that.
NIELSEN:
Your daughter?
KACHKAR:
Yeah and she doesn't get along with the wife either. Always arguing, always arguing, swearing again at her too.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Did you have any recent ah arguments with your daughter?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. Not really recent. She wanted to go get an iPod and I says why don't you - she wanted to get an I- one of those iPods and I said well why don't you look at another one or whatever. She got mad, threw all my clothes down on the floor and whatever. So my wife just goes out and buys it for her. You
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know if I kept my mouth shut, let them do it, I think they would go on, theyre okay maybe, they are okay. I don't know. They don't need me. They hated me.
NIELSEN:
So you know the same thing that I asked you from ah - from my perspective um seems to me what seems to make you upset is your relationship or issues with your - your wife and your children.
KACHKAR:
Well it doesnt really make me upset.
NIELSEN:
Yeah.
VRUNA:
Well, how - how about it affects you right? and that has from---
KACHKAR:
It doesn't really affect me because in the end I can't help it anyways. In the end; I can't help my daughter has some eating disorder, what can I do she has to go to the doctor and follow the doctors orders. I don't get involved, I never get involved when I can. They come to me ask something about tubing or something about a car or something, I can help them. But I never get involved with people and their gossip and blah, blah, blah or pills or wh--. I don't know, I'm not a professional. So at that point, that's why I said at this point it's better I leave,
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because they're fine. They know they have their doctors, they have their school, they have themselves, they can deal with themselves. They don't need me anymore. I'm not even upset, wasn't even affecting. It wasn't affecting me. I wasn't always distraught leaving my wife and things like that. It wasn't that it's better. It was a good - it was a good time because they knew and I knew and it was a good time for me to move on. I wasn't even gonna (sic) contact her. I don't even contact her. The, the lieutenant let me call her a while ago, just a few days, otherwise, I wouldn't even of called.
VRUNA:
Where were you going to move on to?
KACHKAR:
Just get my job and get my apartment and start my work. That's all I wanted to do. But there's a lot of jobs now here with my heavy equipment and everything. I know I can do it. But not like going back like this and back-and-forth. I needed to stay now. That was my point and I was ready. And now that - that thing happened, whatever at night I don't remember. I don't know what happened. That's what I need to - I need to put back together; I don't know.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember what happened?
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KACHKAR:
No. Obviously, it wasn't part of my obviously, I wasnt plan it or anything like that. It was just so weird.
NIELSEN:
What was weird?
KACHKAR:
Just everything, even going to a shelter. I didn't have to go to a shelter. I could of called friends, I have other friends here I could of said you know, I need a week to stay with you and they would of. I don't know why I ended up like that.
NIELSEN:
This thing when you - when you went to the bridge. How long did you stay at the bridge for?
KACHKAR:
I was standing up and seeing the water, water and I said, I said then I said that's gonna (sic) be weird because - it's gonna (sic) be weird. People are gonna (sic) be concerned about me and you know because I know they care about me. I know my family cares about me.
NIELSEN:
Right.
KACHKAR:
So, I just did it on the spot. I never had those feelings before. I don't know.
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NIELSEN:
How long did you stay on the bridge?
KACHKAR:
Five minutes or a few minutes, I stayed there.
NIELSEN:
And where is this bridge again?
KACHKAR:
Just the one on um ah - I think Gerrard Street, just Gerrard Street by - by River.
NIELSEN:
So it's over the water?
KACHKAR:
Over the water.
NIELSEN:
Now you say that you never felt like harming yourself before? That's the first time in your life?
KACHKAR:
Um like that? Yeah.
NIELSEN:
What do you mean like that? Have you felt like harming yourself in another way before?
KACHKAR:
Not harming, but just like getting out of the picture.
NIELSEN:
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What do you mean by that?
KACHKAR:
Like feeling that I'm always causing problems for people and so I don't want to be a problem for people. So I just wanted to, you know, what do you do? You're always there. Like say I'm here now and we - and were eating but were here and then somebody comes and says oh, what are you doing here? That's enough to just ruin my evening. Really. Maybe it's a joke or not a joke, but it doesn't happen to me outside, usually people don't have the opposite. Usually people are happy and I'm happy to see people. Im even happy to see you here
NIELSEN:
How do you feel - are you saying that you felt like a a burden to people is that fair?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Like theyre up high and they started cutting, they start cutting the tree and leave me out of it.
NIELSEN:
How does that make you feel?
KACHKAR:
It makes me feel I want to get out of this situation. It makes me feel I'm out of here like.
NIELSEN:
And when you mean - when you say out of here; and what do you mean?
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KACHKAR:
Like just don't exist.
NIELSEN:
Do you want to die?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. Like I wish I would just go like, just go away somewhere. Just, where, I just would be somewhere else. No, I don't feel like I want to die, but I just don't feel like there. Like if I could be lifted up and go somewhere else like not I don't feel - I don't like those countries. I don't like those are - those Middle Eastern countries. Those Armenia those place - I don't like those places. They have no rules, everybody does what they want to do. They - I don't like those. I just need - want a place. I don't know.
NIELSEN:
Richard, what do you think of suicide? What's your personal opinion on suicide?
KACHKAR:
I don't think it's right at all.
NIELSEN:
No?
KACHKAR:
No.
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NIELSEN:
Now is that because of - why is that? Is it because of religion?
KACHKAR:
No, because I just didnt feel it is right, just take your life like that. I think it's sick, it causes sickness around you. And you hurt people around you. It's just not something - I mean---
NIELSEN:
I'm gonna (sic) ask you a question Richard; I know youve said you don't remember. It sounds like you're feeling -- not feeling very good about yourself. Is that fair? When you came to Toronto?
KACHKAR:
Even before.
NIELSEN:
Even before? How long have you been feeling not good about yourself?
KACHKAR:
Its been a long time. Like even in the summer when her relatives came from - from Iran and---
NIELSEN:
Last summer?
KACHKAR:
You know they ate and then they told me to leave. I says can I just a piece of watermelon they said no. Like they cut watermelon and ate
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NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And then they say you have to go after they cut the watermelon.
NIELSEN:
So that - you've been feeling bad about yourself a long time. And you've described a number of reasons for it. You've told me how you feel about suicide. You've also said that youd like to, because of how people leave you out or make you feel that you are a burden, you'd like to ah go away or not exist?
KACHKAR:
Yeah just be away.
NIELSEN:
Is that fair?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Like if I go to Stevie Bs, I don't tell people I'm there. I don't have a phone. I don't want people to call me. I don't want to call anybody. I just want to be alone.
NIELSEN:
Have you ever thought of any other ways where you wouldn't or you couldn't exist? Now you told me you were thinking of jumping off a bridge. Have you ever thought of any other way?
KACHKAR:
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Yeah, like moving.
NIELSEN:
Moving away?
KACHKAR:
Just moving away.
NIELSEN:
But that's a big difference to me - moving away and jumping off a bridge . Jumping off a bridge is taking your own life.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Doing that, you know, I'm just telling you because its the truth what happened.
NIELSEN:
I appreciate that.
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I wouldn't just sit make that up. Like I never looked off like I go over - over bridges I'm even scared of them.
NIELSEN:
And that's why I would bring it up because you said that.
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I go over bridges I'm scared of them. I go, you know, lifes important. I have my daughter, she's asking for me. People have the other man has his daughter.
NIELSEN:
On this occasion you said you were thinking of jumping?
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KACHKAR:
No, it wasn't I was thinking. It was like---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---it just became something possible. It became a possibility.
NIELSEN:
A possibility?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Like---
NIELSEN:
But it didn't last though?
KACHKAR:
No, I said thats - I better get out of here and go like shake my head, walk back.
NIELSEN:
Have you ever thought of suicide?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
No?
KACHKAR:
I know I'm - I know I could I'm helpful to people. I go to when I go myself to people like even to Regent Park. I've never been there right? I don't know, my friend took me there. But I met
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nice people there. There's people who, nice people there. Working people, after work, you know they come, they have a beer or whatever. That's good for me. I used to finish work, have a beer and sit outside, talk about things. So anywhere I go, new, I work and people like me I'm okay. So, I needed a - just a start somewhere. I needed a start just start to do something and be useful with what I have.
NIELSEN:
Richard, what do you think about police officers? What's your experience with police officers?
KACHKAR:
I have all respect for them, love them. Take care of people, have hard jobs. Protect people, they're always there for you.
NIELSEN:
Youve ever had a problem with police officers?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
Police officers came to your house a couple of times. How was your dealings with them? How did you find him just?
KACHKAR:
I appreciated what they did. They came, just told me to cool down and---
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NIELSEN:
Yeah they treated your wife okay? And they treated you okay? And your children? You said something ah earlier when DeDetective VRUNA was talking to. You said something about being shot. What do you remember about being shot?
KACHKAR:
I don't recall.
NIELSEN:
Why did you make that statement? Is that because of your wounds or you actually know?
KACHKAR:
No, because they told me.
NIELSEN:
You were told eh?
KACHKAR:
I wouldn't have known. They told me. They said here, here, here, here. Here. I still don't believe it.
NIELSEN:
Youve never asked anybody about what the allegations are? You were in court. Did ah you not talk to Duty Counsel about the allegations against you are? What were alleging that you did. Did that - that lawyer didn't explain that to you?
KACHKAR:
I didn't have a lawyer.
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NIELSEN:
There was Duty Counsel in -in court---
KACHKAR:
She was---
NIELSEN:
---when you appeared in court and they had a synopsis of charges about the allegations there. Did not anybody go over that with you?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, they said I'm Im being charged with Murder. Just like they said in the court here.
NIELSEN:
Did they say what - what it involved? What were the circumstances that they told you?
KACHKAR:
Yeah it's Murder in one because its a police officer.
NIELSEN:
M-hm. So they told you that.
KACHKAR:
They told me that.
VRUNA:
So what about the circumstances that were surrounding---
KACHKAR:
I don't remember anything.
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VRUNA:
---to that charge? You don't know what led up to that?
KACHKAR:
No, because I didn't have a lawyer - I didn't have a lawyer to speak to and I didn't ask.
VRUNA:
So do you have any questions for us about that?
KACHKAR:
I - I should have a lawyer with me. I should have a lawyer with me that---
NIELSEN:
Its you asking questions of us; do you have any questions of us about it?
KACHKAR:
No, because I because I know I did something wrong. I know I did something wrong, I did something stupid. I'm having a hard time recalling it. Im mixed up. I've never had a pol- I've always had highest regards for police and all my - and all things. I always even wanted to be police. But why you know why would I do that? And even if it was let's say, you know, it could of been anybody. It could. It could of been much worse too. It could of been a group of kids and a bus stop they shoot. This could have been disastrous. But it wasn't. It didn't have
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anything to do with police. That's when the wife calls the lawyer on the newspaper cop killer everything. I said wow. Wow.
NIELSEN:
I'm trying to get ah when you - maybe I'm misunderstanding; you said it could of been worse?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. It could have been. Well, I mean it could.
NIELSEN:
A - a young man lost his life.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. What happens if I - what happens if I had hit a whole bunch of people?
NIELSEN:
If it was somebody other than a police officer that would make it worse in your mind?
KACHKAR:
No, I'm saying police officers is - is tragic.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
But any life is tragic as well.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
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KACHKAR:
Police officer is tragic but thats his job; same thing with these Wardens here. They're taking care of people. They taking care of people with disease, with AIDS - you get AIDS through blood right, through a fight.
NIELSEN:
And that's just part of the - that's the nature of the job the job?
KACHKAR:
Well, the nature of the job but plus the person goes out (Inaudible) Im seeing that. It's tragic what happened. I can't believe what happened.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
I dont know how it happened.
NIELSEN:
Did what happened - all this happened. Did it happen because you were upset with yourself and your life? Is that what the what the problem is?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know.
NIELSEN:
You don't think so?
KACHKAR:
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No, because I have a good life ahead of me.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
My kids are older now and everything. I don't have a bad life. I have a good life. I have all my skills, everything ready to go. Just this is just a training part, it's just a matter of - of making sure they're okay, that's all.
NIELSEN:
Like going back to what you've told us. You went to see your wife and your kids and they didn't let, they didn't want you in the house. When you left you had 20 - $22 dollars to your name. You had no other money. You had only the clothes on your back. You came to Toronto. It sounds to me like you weren't very happy.
. KACHKAR: No officer; Im happy because I know here Stevie Bs got some clothes for me. They'll help me out and one day I get a job when I want to. The reason before I couldn't is just because I was also going back and forth, back and forth. But now when I came this time---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
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KACHKAR:
---it was here to stay so they were gonna (sic) I could get help, I could go to the next morning. I could go down to the job place and get a job. I was ready this time.
NIELSEN:
You also said you weren't feeling very good. In fact, I think I asked you this is this the worst you felt in your life and you you agreed with that. Is that true? Is that a fair statement?
KACHKAR:
Um, yeah. But it's separate from that. It wasn't because I'm here or there. I wasn't feeling good just because - just like if you were eating and then you told me to leave.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Say if the food came and you said leave; I would feel like bad. That's all it was.
NIELSEN:
So when you say you felt bad, bad enough to go to the hospital or clinic, because you wanted to see a doctor? That's what you said right?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
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NIELSEN:
And I asked you if this was the worst you felt in your life and you said yes. But was it bad like you just described, somebody asking you to leave and you don't want to or is it bad for some other reason? Because the way I understood it, it's not---
KACHKAR:
Bad becauseI know I'm not gonna (sic) go back anymore. That's the end of it.
NIELSEN:
Back to?
KACHKAR:
Back home, or care or anything. Even if the call and say oh Ashley's in trouble; I cant help you anymore.
NIELSEN:
Had you made that decision?
KACHKAR:
I did make that decision.
NIELSEN:
When did you make that decision?
KACHKAR:
When they that - when I left Toronto that night.
NIELSEN:
You said?
KACHKAR:
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When I left St. Catharines that night.
NIELSEN:
So that was a pretty final decision on your part?
KACHKAR:
A very final decision.
NIELSEN:
You said you weren't gonna (sic) go back?
KACHKAR:
Ah, it's not that I wasn't gonna (sic) go back, but I'm not gonna (sic) go here and there and call and everything thats - thats, this was decided. That was after the shelter I think um - in St. Catharines. That was the purpose of that.
NIELSEN:
Alright.
KACHKAR:
I could have stayed at the house too. I could have stayed. Even at night they didn't want me there, I couldn't have said oh please can I stay, they would of let me stay. But I had enough of that.
NIELSEN:
You had enough then?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. It wasn't it wasnt right for me. It wasn't right for them They don't want me around, they want their privacy. I respect that. Just like I knock on the door and I'd say can I come in you say no youre busy.
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NIELSEN:
And so when you went - you said you went to Toronto you made the decision that you weren't gonna go back?
KACHKAR:
No. I wasnt gonna (sic) go back. I was gonna (sic) stay, find a place and go for the housing, get my housing, and whatever whatever to get my work going.
NIELSEN:
So again, this - you don't think this happened, this incident you can't remember - you don't think it happened because you were upset with your life?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
Do you have any explanation why something like this would happen?
KACHKAR:
I've been way more upset in my life. I've been upset with my dad, what happened, my sister. I've been upset before, with the wife and and a lot. This wasn't upsetting this was a a good - it was a - it was a almost a good time. You know kids are older now. They are, theyre 21 and 18. That's it, they got to be okay. I've got to move on. I don't know what happened to me.
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NIELSEN:
Is this the first time that you made this decision that you were gonna (sic) move on?
KACHKAR:
Yeah. But even before when I was here, always Im thinking that I'm gonna (sic) go on the weekends, go back home see the kids when I'm working here.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
Always Im going back. Even the bus driver was asking you're spending more money on the bus than youre um than youre ah making.
NIELSEN:
Do you have any questions of me or do you have any more questions?
VRUNA:
No, I just ah - when you went to the hospital you actually went into the hospital, did you register when you were there or?
KACHKAR:
I think so.
VRUNA:
Did you tell the reception there that you went into the Emerge or where did you go?
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KACHKAR:
I went into some through this - I went through there the security guard took me and took me there.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And I think I gave her my name maybe. But there was like five people, six people there. The lady with cancer, another old lady there. There was a whole bunch of people there.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And I said and how am I supposed to do that? How am I supposed to wait? She said look everybody's waiting.
VRUNA:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And then somebody yelled at me and a guy says oh I'm a med student, and my mom has cancer and were waiting.
VRUNA:
Okay. But you gave your name?
KACHKAR:
I think so.
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VRUNA:
Yeah. I got the only question I have is um you know the family of this officer right is gonna (sic) wanna (sic) know that ah Detective Sergeant NIELSEN and myself have spoken to you.
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
VRUNA:
Is there anything you want us to say to them?
KACHKAR:
I'm just so um sad that I did something like that tragic. Now they don't have a daddy and their kids and everything like that. It's just - it's just horrible thing. Horrible thing. I don't even know why - why or how or? I'm sorry. Sorry is not even a word. What do you,what it was an accident. It wasn't meant to be. Kids without their daddy not coming home and the wife has no husband and all their family and friends and a man of such nice position.
NIELSEN:
Can I ask you something about what you just said? If you don't remember, how do you know it was an accident?
KACHKAR:
Because I never planned it. Never did any never went on purpose. It was some - something happened.
NIELSEN:
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Like how do you know it was an accident?
KACHKAR:
Well, because I never planned it never.
NIELSEN:
Because you didn't plan it ahead of time? You just kind of just did it?
KACHKAR:
But that I did it. Driving was night time. I don't know what happened.
NIELSEN:
Just because it was night when you were driving, do you have a hard time remembering?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember any of that.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember any of it?
KACHKAR:
The cars coming and going this way and that way and I can't turn and just confused.
NIELSEN:
What was making you confused? The cars or because it was night?
KACHKAR:
Just like, I didn't even know what I was doing. Where I was going.
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NIELSEN:
Where did you think you were going?
KACHKAR:
Just running.
NIELSEN:
Just running?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
What were you running from?
KACHKAR:
I don't know. That's what I'm saying. I really don't know what happened. It's weird I don't know what happened.
NIELSEN:
Do you remember hitting any cars?
KACHKAR:
I don't know, there's something's coming
NIELSEN:
I know.
KACHKAR:
flashing everything. But, I don't know. I can't recall whats happened that night.
NIELSEN:
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What kind of things are flashing?
KACHKAR:
Just lights and cars and I'm driving and that's all. I don't remember---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---any of those details.
NIELSEN:
Okay. Now do you remember how it is you got to be driving?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
And you dont remember hitting anything? So what are some of the details that you do remember?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember anything.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember talking to anybody when you were driving? Do you remember anybody, anybody saying anything to you?
KACHKAR:
Someone with me when I was driving?
NIELSEN:
Saying anything to you while you were driving? No. You just remember driving back and forth?
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KACHKAR:
I don't even remember. I just don't - I don't even remember that.
NIELSEN:
But you said that, that's why I'm asking you that.
KACHKAR:
Its like a dream or something.
NIELSEN:
Its like a dream? What about the lights? What kind of lights?
KACHKAR:
Cars. The cars - like I would go this way and then they would stop and then they would put me this way and then I would would sort of blackout or something like that and then Id back up and Id go again and make things happen.
NIELSEN:
So youd back up?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember. I'm just I mentioned, thats the kind of lifestyle I had now I do something like that. It doesn't it doesnt---
NIELSEN:
Oh, so it sou- it sounds to me like some of it is coming back to you?
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KACHKAR:
Well, whether it's coming back, I don't know where, how and what, so? If I get if I sit in - if I sit with somebody---
NIELSEN:
M-hm
KACHKAR:
---and and learn and understand more and more details, I could do better. I could do more, I could explain more. But right now I can't recall. Especially, I'd remember um - all I remember, even in the hospital, getting up and they say just wake up. Yeah, that's weird. One minute I'm there, one minute I'm there in the shelter one minute next minute I'm in the hospital. That's what I'm seeing.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
And all those little flashes of how I wish I could tell you. Has it happened to somebody else, I - I don't know. But in your career you, have you heard of such - such a thing?
NIELSEN:
Well it's entirely different. It's---
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
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NIELSEN:
--- I've been doing this for a long time, so every case is different and this - and this one is different. Every case is different.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. I never hurt a fly in my life I never hurt nothing and everything I have always helped - helped people. Then have something tragic like this happen. So either I'm sick, sounds like I'm sick.
NIELSEN:
What do you remember about the vehicle you were driving? Did you have a hard time driving it?
KACHKAR:
I don't remember.
NIELSEN:
Remember how you were dressed?
KACHKAR:
No.
NIELSEN:
What about the weather, what do you remember about that night outside? Was it cold?
KACHKAR:
I dont remember.
NIELSEN:
You don't remember?
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KACHKAR:
Isnt it better I get a - I get the lawyer and we go over that and get that? Isn't that better in you - in your opinion?
NIELSEN:
What I tell you is thats up to you, that's your choice.
KACHKAR:
I need to do that officer. I've been saying that from the beginning. I need to do that and maybe I'm sick. Obviously I'm sick.
NIELSEN:
You think you're sick?
KACHKAR:
For sure I'm sick. Somethings wrong with me. Of course, who would do that? A normal person wouldn't do that?
NIELSEN:
What do you think is wrong with you?
KACHKAR:
I don't know, maybe I have some kind of disease in my head or something? Mental illness.
NIELSEN:
Have you have you ever seen a psychiatrist before?
KACHKAR:
A few times.
NIELSEN:
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You have seen? Okay. Because I asked you that.
KACHKAR:
No, I know. But they don't take me in. I go there to see them. People have recommended me. I go there, I see them, they look at me, says no, you go and you're okay.
NIELSEN:
Who recommended you to see a psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Like my mom and my - other people and - and in Vancou- in ah Toronto.
NIELSEN:
Who in Toronto told you to go see a psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Like my workplace.
NIELSEN:
Which workplace?
KACHKAR:
At that pharmaceutical company.
NIELSEN:
They asked you to go see a psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Yeah like things happen they say---
NIELSEN:
Who who - who in your workplace asked you to see a psychiatrist?
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KACHKAR:
I dont remember, one of the workers. One of the girls there. Hes crazy. Ritchie, you're crazy or whatever.
NIELSEN:
So just sit down and talk or?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, just like that.
NIELSEN:
Did they say---
KACHKAR:
No. No, like that. Like talking. Like were doing something about paperwork or whatever, and I ask this and that and like an argument and theyre theyre in an argument and You should go in crazy house or whatever.
NIELSEN:
Anybody else?
KACHKAR:
Well, in St. Catharines when I, when I broke up with my wife, they said I should go; and I went and he said---
NIELSEN:
You went to see a psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Yeah, I got to see him. Yeah.
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NIELSEN:
Which one did you go see?
KACHKAR:
I don't know, the Canadian Mental Health Association in St. Catharines. I don't know even if he is a psychiatrist. No, I don't believe he was.
NIELSEN:
When was that?
KACHKAR:
Maybe 2005.
NIELSEN:
2005? Like who recommended that you do that?
KACHKAR:
Like Child Protection; I think.
NIELSEN:
So the Children's Aid or?
KACHKAR:
M-hm.
NIELSEN:
Child Protection or Child and Family Services? That type of thing?
KACHKAR:
Um, I don't think they meant specifically, but they said you better go get help. Oh, my mother-in-law. Last when we we talked.
248 of 259
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Did I mention that?
NIELSEN:
Yeah. Did you actually go get help? Did you see the psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Thats why I went to Southridge. That's why I went to Southridge. I went there, told them I'm here and I went and had a good time. My family was here and they said that's I need they need I need to see - um my mother-in-law said I need to go see a psychiatrist and take medicine.
NIELSEN:
Why?
KACHKAR:
I don't know.
NIELSEN:
No ones ever told you why? And did you actually ever go and meet with a psychiatrist?
KACHKAR:
Not really. I always meet with the - with the social worker and everything. And then that's it. I never really go see a psychiatrist. Ive never seen a psychiatrist.
249 of 259
NIELSEN:
In - in your whole life? So you've never and truly?
KACHKAR:
I've been in their offices and everything but never go inside and visit with them, no.
NIELSEN:
Do you have appointments?
KACHKAR:
I think so. Like in Vancouver my mom made me one and he said get out of here, he says who told you to come here I said oh my mom. He goes oh that's garbage.
NIELSEN:
Youve made appointments but you never actually sat down in an office with a psychiatrist who asked you questions. That's never happened? So you've never been treated for any sickness of the mind?
KACHKAR:
I think I have that.
NIELSEN:
You think you have that. Why - why do you say you think you have that?
KACHKAR:
Just look at my actions. Look at my actions. What everybody's saying I'm doing now. Im in jail. Theres something wrong
250 of 259
with me. I wouldn't be here. I would be out cleaning my sister's place or cooking food or being with my dogs. Why would I be here? Something's wrong with me.
NIELSEN:
And thats your explanation for that. You have no - other than because this has never happened to you before?
KACHKAR:
Opposite. Opposite. I've always been caring. Even coming home off of the bus. Somebody's causing a ruckus on the bus, I'll Ill make sure he's okay and sit until the bus stops. I'm there you know? Car accidents, I'd be driving my truck and would be doing my deliveries and (Inaudible) puff of smoke everybody is driving by. I would stop my truck, go help the people out if they're stuck in the guardrail. A lot of accidents. That's what I'm saying. Its very unusual. It's the weirdest thing that ever happened to me.
NIELSEN:
Its the weirdest thing?
KACHKAR:
Yeah.
NIELSEN:
Its the weirdest thing in - in your life that's ever happened?
251 of 259
KACHKAR:
Of course. Weird is not even - I took a li--- I did a lot of damage.
NOTICED THAT VIDEO CAMERA STOPPED WORKING ATTEMPT TO RESTART IT WAS MADE TIME ON AUDIO PORTION IS
VRUNA: Um---
NIELSEN:
Okay. Our camera is not working and its um - we just noticed it at 2:03 p.m. but our audio recorder is still working.
KACHKAR:
So ah - so sorry, officer may have the time please?
NIELSEN:
Its 2:03.
KACHKAR:
2:03. So when I go back to my thing, I'm definitely gonna (sic) call some help.
NIELSEN:
252 of 259
Thats up to you.
KACHKAR:
I have to.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Because I don't recall. I would tell you. I would tell you everything. I don't know what's going on.
NIELSEN:
Okay.
KACHKAR:
Its so - so out of character, out of touch. As far as the family and everything, how - how - it will be like my whole family. It's my whole family, that what happen. Even I feel that now I did that. How could somebody prepare for that like? Like I'm driving on anywhere or do anything to cause that? Or in the army or somewhere and you do that. I never take or hurt nobody. Now I have to you know?
(ATTEMPT TO RESTART THE VIDEO CAMERA AND IT

253 of 259
STARTS RECORDING HERE)

They must - I hope they're not angry. I hope they're not angry.
NIELSEN:
Whos - who's they?
KACHKAR:
The family.
NIELSEN:
The family of?
KACHKAR:
Of the victims. I hope they're not angry.
NIELSEN:
Well, they're upset.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. Ah ah but angry. Because I know, because I'm sick so.
NIELSEN:
Theyre devastated at their loss.
KACHKAR:
Yeah. But Im - something's wrong with me. That's all I think about is that loss.
254 of 259
(VIDEO STOPS WORKING AT THIS POINT THIS REMAINING PORTION IS CAPTURED ON AUDIO ONLY)
I'm not worried about this even the rest of my life, I'd stay here. What is mine. I did that. I caused that much damage. What could, why what how can I ever, how can I ever be?
NIELSEN:
How much damage do you think you caused?
KACHKAR:
A lifetime damage for people. No father now, I feel bad. Irreparable. Like if this happened to your family or my family or anybody's family. It happened to somebody's family. A nice family.
255 of 259
NIELSEN:
Well, what would you like - would you like us to say anything to the family?
KACHKAR:
Just like that hes my own family, my own father too that I did it. It was like - my own father. My own son, my own kids, the same. I feel the same---
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
---it wouldnt be. (Inaudible) So those things never should of happened.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I shouldn't of been out there you know I shouldn't - it shouldn't of happened. I put his life it shouldn't of happened. And if I spend the rest of my life in thing that's still nothing. I've never spent a a day in these places and now Im here? It's so weird for me, really. It not weird; it's just Im - do you see I'm not well when you look at me? Do you feel something's wrong? You must feel that?
256 of 259
NIELSEN:
Ah, again to be fair, you seem pretty normal to me. I mean we've been able to converse for I think three hours now or 2 and a 1/2 hours. Um yeah, I'm just trying to understand what happened. That's what I see.
KACHKAR:
I don't even know that area. I don't even know that.
NIELSEN:
M-hm.
KACHKAR:
I come from a good family. I dont know what happened to me. I just feel in my own family. Im very, very, very, very, very sorry that never um - and and my family too. My family must be so disappointed in that. We don't see people in our lives - we don't see people different like that. It happens to anybody, it happens to us. I don't feel different. My kids. My kids, I dont feel that.
NIELSEN:
Well, Mary do you have anymore questions?
VRUNA:
No, I don't.
NIELSEN:
Okay. We've been talking for quite a long time um which -ah the time right now, what were gonna (sic) do is were gonna (sic) get the the guards are gonna (sic) take you back to the
257 of 259
infirmary okay? Um, the time right now is 2:08 p.m. I'm just gonna (sic) get up---
KACHKAR:
Okay.
NIELSEN:
---and Ill have you stay there until I get them to come and get you okay?
MALE:
Yes sir.
NIELSEN:
If I could get your names? What are your names?
CUMMING:
Fred CUMMING.
HARDING:
Kyle HARDING.
NIELSEN:
Alright. Do you have badge numbers or anything?
CUMMING:
0343
HARDING:
0194
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NIELSEN:
Okay. Richard it's ah its now 2:09 p.m. Theres two security officers here ah Fred CUMMING, badge 0343 and Kyle HARDING, 0194. Theyre gonna (sic) escort you out okay?
KACHKAR:
Thank you
NIELSEN:
Okay. Theres Darren JONES here as well. I'm turning the recording off at ah - it's just after ah 2:09 p.m.
259 of 259

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ELECTRONICALLY RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RICHARD KACHKAR BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT DANIEL NIELSEN (5809) AND DETECTIVE MARY VRUNA (7164)

ON 25TH, JANUARY, 2011, AT 10:01 HOURS

Detective Sergeant Daniel NIELSEN:

Detective Mary VRUNA:

Hes in the shower?

Hes in the shower and so.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Were gonna (sic) be delayed by a few minutes.

So okay. Well, well wait.

Was in the shower - -

- - as we speak and when we walked in.

Okay, do you want to re-start?

Okay and just maybe the time again?

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

I wasnt expecting that (UI)

Ya we (UI) that that has to be turned off.

(Tape stopped) (01:48mins)

Okay, were going.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

We need to know the time when he's in the room.

(Speaking in the background inaudible.)

Nice to meet you.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Richard and we've never met---

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Okay and yourself -- there's nobody else in this room?

I mean what you've told me. I mean.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

I did that already.

Okay so do you understand that?

Okay. Um, do you wish to call a lawyer right now?

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

No, I should speak to a lawyer; I should have my lawyer please.

Because I'm ah---

Have you retained a lawyer by the way?

I'm in the process now of calling some people and---

Do you have a lawyer?

Okay. So youve ah - you've not retained any lawyer?

Okay. So what Im going to do is there's a telephone here---

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

I called one this morning.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

You understand what's involved in that?

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

When they call me back---

And if they call here can we ---

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Oh, okay. Okay.

Thats how it works.

So um, I think here is as good as any.

---that he can call collect.

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Then he can call the Duty Counsel from his cell.

Okay. (Tape stopped)

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Okay its ah 11---

And what were we talking about?

Okay. Have you spoken to a - a lawyer?

Interviewee: Richard KACHKAR Job No.: 5735 Accused: Richard KACHKAR

Susan PORTEUS on the phone?

Okay. In your words, what does that mean to you?