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shooting stars : quran vs science !

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Feb 16 2009

yashwant.IITR

shooting stars : quran vs science !

sahih muslim Book 026, Number 5538:

'Abdullah. Ibn 'Abbas reported: A person from the Ansar who was amongst the Companions of Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him) reported to me: As we were sitting during the night with Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah's Messenger (may peace
be upon him) said: What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)?
They said: Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that
that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died, whereupon Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) said: (These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth
of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the
Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them
until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the
supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they
accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until
this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches)
what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they
attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they
alloy it with lies and make additions to it.

AL-JINN (THE JINN)

072.008

YUSUFALI: 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming
fires.

PICKTHAL: And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found
it filled with strong warders and meteors.

072.009

YUSUFALI: 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen
now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
PICKTHAL: And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a
flame in wait for him;

072.010

YUSUFALI: 'And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord
(really) intends to guide them to right conduct.

PICKTHAL: And we know not whether harm is boded unto all who are in the earth, or whether their Lord
intendeth guidance for them.

AL-MULK (THE SOVEREIGNTY, CONTROL)

067.005

YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such
(Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing
Fire.

PICKTHAL: And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them
missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

AS-SAAFFAT (THOSE WHO SET THE RANKS,DRAWN UP IN RA

037.007

YUSUFALI: (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,

PICKTHAL: With security from every froward devil.

SHAKIR: And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious Shaitan.

037.008

YUSUFALI: (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast
away from every side,

PICKTHAL: They cannot listen to the Highest Chiefs for they are pelted from every side,

SHAKIR: They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side,

037.009

YUSUFALI: Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,

PICKTHAL: Outcast, and theirs is a perpetual torment;

SHAKIR: Being driven off, and for them is a perpetual chastisement,

037.010

YUSUFALI: Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of
piercing brightness.

PICKTHAL: Save him who snatcheth a fragment, and there pursueth him a piercing flame.

SHAKIR: Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame.

AL-HIJR (AL-HIJR, STONELAND, ROCK CITY)

015.016

YUSUFALI: It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to
(all) beholders;

PICKTHAL: And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for
beholders.

SHAKIR: And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to
the beholders.

015.017

YUSUFALI: And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil:

PICKTHAL: And We have guarded it from every outcast devil,

SHAKIR: And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

015.018

YUSUFALI: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).

PICKTHAL: Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue.

SHAKIR: But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

learned muslims

please explain to me the origin of meteors .

regards

yashwant arya samaji

Sanaul

Yashwant..
Hail Hitler..

I will reply to your comments tomorrow..

ALI

@yashwanth

According to the narrated hadith and Quranic verses, you or science or anyone of us cannot prove the
existence of angels and jinns, neither can we prove that they do not exist.

There is nothing wrong in the above stated verses according to science other than the fact that
existance of jinns, angels is not proved by science.

Two cases can exist here...

NOT believing in jinns and angels

If one does not believe in jinns and angels, NEITHER can he prove that they do not exist. So one cannot
refute Quran as one cannot prove that jinns and angels do not exist.

believing in jinns and angels

If one believes that angels and jinns exist, then we already know that stars and meteorites can move...

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q181.html

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=378

so why can they not be used to shoot at jinns to drive them??

Either way we cannot disprove what it is written in Quran.. infact these are some miracles that are
beyond our knowledge.

I hope everyone agrees with it...

yashwant.IITR

i am willing to believe in jinn and angel if u come with proof.

Defender

If one believes that angels and jinns exist, then we already know that stars and meteorites can move...

May be some day we will shoot moon to aliens to send info.

Get life bro.

For our conveniance lets assume these jinns and Angels are at some distant galaxy.But the question is
how one transmit the info like that.At least I am not bothered of jinns and angels,I intend to know
whether u beleive the shooting star theory,if yes,with proofs,not religious but scientific.

soheb

defender

May be some day we will shoot moon to aliens to send info.

Get life bro.

For our conveniance lets assume these jinns and Angels are at some distant galaxy.But the question is
how one transmit the info like that.At least I am not bothered of jinns and angels,I intend to know
whether u beleive the shooting star theory,if yes,with proofs,not religious but scientific

science still have to discover many things................

if you comsider science so much then tell me can you prove existence of god scientifically

Defender

Soheb

So far,god's existance cant be detected by science,and I beleive science will never be able to detect it.Its
because science deals with material phenomenon,and god is not one.

Such is not case with stars.They are material phenomenon,and can be explained with science.Thats why
I dont question allah,angels jinns etc.I question the transmission theory.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/showers_andstars_000809.html

Shooting stars are mostly grit from space colliding at very high speed with air molecules high up in the
sky.

As Earth travels in its orbit around the sun it runs into clouds of grit generally pulverized rock that also
orbits the sun. Many shooting stars are produced by grit no larger than a grain of sand. Some of the
more spectacular ones are pea-sized and the really stunning (but very rare) fireballs are the size of an
orange or larger. These objects collide with air molecules some 60 miles (95 kilometers) above Earth's
surface and, due to their very high speed, they begin to glow white hot. We see a streak of light as they
burn up. The scientific name is meteor but shooting star will do fine (just tell the kids that they are not
really stars).

Now dont tell me allah built seventh heaven in earth's atmosphere.

soheb

i have faith in my religion and what is written quran i believe it

can every thing written in gita n vedas are scientifically prove.........

Defender

Soheb

We havent tried for material things.All material phenomenons should be open for critical evaluations.At
least I wont hesitate to disagree with something which does not fit with science.After all,material things
dont make up my faith.

And I am sure qu'ran is nothing about shooting stars.It is about how mankind should behave.So the
shooting stars cant be cited as a proof that qu'ran is false.

soheb

defender

Soheb

We havent tried for material things.All material phenomenons should be open for critical evaluations.At
least I wont hesitate to disagree with something which does not fit with science.After all,material things
dont make up my faith.

And I am sure qu'ran is nothing about shooting stars.It is about how mankind should behave.So the
shooting stars cant be cited as a proof that qu'ran is false.

we are not religious scholar yo decide the authenticity of qura n gita/bible

so many debates where all ready done to false each other religious text

but out come is nothing rather than hatred

for you n me there is no need to look on science for authenticity of religion

can you say that all scientifically studies is completed ..........there is no more new discovery yet to
come.........

Matin

Yashwant

am willing to believe in jinn and angel if u come with proof.

I dont know how to give proof of angels but Ginn yes, having witnessed some paranormal phenomenon i
would not give any links or references as it is i do not give any to validate my point.

You need to visit the Meera Datar Dargah's, they are all over India, the biggest in Jaipur.
Here people are treated for demonic or Ginn possesions, i saw some spine chilling examples of Jinn
attacks, but i personally cant say i saw the Jinn.

Also in Solapur, there is a Mosque - Phaltan Masjid, where the Imam was shoved aside while sleeping in
the mosque one night by very tall men wearing white clothes, they were atleast 20 in number, they
offered their prayers in congregation and left.

The Imam doesnt sleep in the mosque any more and yes his brain is also not the same anymore, really,
the news even made it to the local newspaper and the local media.

Karthik

Matin,

Whats with these Jinns..Are they good or Bad or simply another type of species, who do neither?

Matin

Karhtik

According to Islam there are two creations Man and the Jinn, man was created from clay, the Jinn from
Fire, they are supposed to live alongside the humans you know like a different dimension, just like man
there are good and bad Jinns and just like man they will be questioned on the day of judgemet, the Jinn
possessions happen when we or they cross paths, they are physically and mentally more powerful than
the human race.

There is a fort in Marathwada(Naldrug), where every local says was built by a Jinn in one night, it has
never been captured.

Karthik

I just hope they dont have HOLY WARS ..That way, they shall score over us, Humans

Matin

Karthk

Hahaha no they wont there are different worlds assigned to both, it is only sometimes we cross each
other.

Defender

Soheb

we are not religious scholar yo decide the authenticity of qura n gita/bible

so many debates where all ready done to false each other religious text
but out come is nothing rather than hatred

for you n me there is no need to look on science for authenticity of religion

I dont think these matters decide authenticity of our religion,thats what I was trying to convey,n I agree
to you that science need not interfere religion.I tried to explain in other thread n I apply same logic here.

Similarly,I am least bothered whether Krishna really showed VishwaRup or not.His message is enough.So
if tomorrow someone says Krishna didnt disappeared from mathura to reach Dwarka in a moment,its
fine with me.Rather I will be happy to know the way devised.But this doesnt stop me from beleiving in
him as god,I dont call him god just because miracles and foretelling future,but because of his divine
qualities and setting an example and then giving ShreeMatBhagvadGeeta.

ALI

sahih muslim Book 026, Number 5538:

'Abdullah. Ibn 'Abbas reported: A person from the Ansar who was amongst the Companions of Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him) reported to me: As we were sitting during the night with Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah's Messenger (may peace
be upon him) said: What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)?
They said: Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that
that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died, whereupon Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) said: (These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth
of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the
Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them
until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the
supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they
accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until
this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches)
what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they
attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they
alloy it with lies and make additions to it.

May be some day we will shoot moon to aliens to send info.

Get life bro.

For our conveniance lets assume these jinns and Angels are at some distant galaxy.But the question is
how one transmit the info like that.At least I am not bothered of jinns and angels,I intend to know
whether u beleive the shooting star theory,if yes,with proofs,not religious but scientific.

@defender
meteors weren't shot to send INFO from angels to jinns. u better try to understand the meaning first
rather than asking someone to get a life.

there is this transmission of message of God's decision(whenever HE makes) and angels transmit it to
one another and also to the dwellers of heaven and in this process the jinns gets the message tooo...nw
when the jinns gets the message they try to convey it to their frnds with added information in it. i.e.
they try to change the exact message of the AlMighty and hence when the angels sees the jinns they
throw the meteors at them.

regarding the shooting star theory...

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q181.html

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=378

@yashwanth

am willing to believe in jinn and angel if u come with proof.

you can neither disapprove this theory so no point of not believing it..

ofcourse as it is not proved neither can u believe it..

so a sound and logical mind would always try to keep this topic aside and go by other things that are
proved....

@defender

Now dont tell me allah built seventh heaven in earth's atmosphere.

In the Qur'an it is stated that

“God is He who created seven heavens and of the earth a similar number. Through them all descends
His Command: that you may know that God has power over all things, and that God comprehends all
things in His knowledge.” (65:12)

It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and
arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things. (2:29)
Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and
revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (41:11-12)

Troposphere

Stratosphere

Mesosphere

Thermosphere

Ionosphere

Exosphere

Magnetosphere

.....taskeen

brother Yashwant wants proof!.... proof proof proof..

brother... v must understand dat science has its limitations but nevertheless is advancing evryday..... soh
maybe smday vl b able 2 give u 'proof!' abt existence of angels and jinns..... but kya kare abhi science
utna advance nahi hua na!

u knw brother Quran also speaks of life beyond earth.... science hasnt been able 2 prove outer life as
yet.. though they r trying hard and r almost convinced abt it!

well brother... dont u worry if non of us muslims r able 2 give u proof of angels n jinns.....

just wait 4 d day u die.... ul get d proof.. n angel will descend from the heaven above and take ur soul
wid him!...... jah!... i meantion soul! ..... nw ul ask 4 proof 4 soul 2... heehee

well since u believe in Almighty who has no image n is unique n 1.... mashahallah ur almost guided... im
wid u brother on dis... but cn u prove??... i hope u 2 believe in the Aatama..... any
proof????????????????

yashwant.IITR

matin

but i personally cant say i saw the Jinn.

u call them jinn .

sir syed ahmed called them natual forces .

hindus call them bhoot , pret ,bhatakti aatma.

doctors call this psychiatric problems.

in vedic dharma there are 2 conscious entities = atma and eeshwar .

there is no 3rd.

why would one want to leave the clarity of the vedas and go into darkness?

@ali

what is the work of jinn in allah's plan?

ali/saleel

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and
revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (41:11-12)

Troposphere

Stratosphere

Mesosphere

Thermosphere

Ionosphere

Exosphere

Magnetosphere

is arsh stationed on/beyond the magneto sphere?

md

To Yashwant and Defender

Please don't make yourselves the laughing stock of this community. If you don't know anything now ,
you'll cannot call it false. For example , we humans at present don't know whether there is life or not
outside earth.So we cannot simply reject the existence of life outside.You'll can judge Quran only on the
basis of established Scientific facts. And please do apply the theory of probability on Quran in terms of
established Scientific facts ,you'll will know how authentic and correct is Quran .I hope being engineers
you'll know what is theory of probability.

And by the way where were you all when I started the Topic "Quran and Science." No one dared to
speak a word then.

Karthik

Please don't make yourselves the laughing stock of this community.

You saying this..Lol

If you don't know anything now , you'll cannot call it false.

Well, I just read your ponts about mythology and Indian law and the Temple..

For example , we humans at present don't know whether there is life or not outside earth.So we cannot
simply reject the existence of life outside.

Ok

You'll can judge Quran only on the basis of established Scientific facts.

Ok, but is this applicable only for the Quran???

And please do apply the theory of probability on Quran in terms of established Scientific facts ,you'll will
know how authentic and correct is Quran .

Ok

I hope being engineers you'll know what is theory of probability.

I think that defender was very clear on what he wrote..

And by the way where were you all when I started the Topic "Quran and Science." No one dared to
speak a word then.
Well, No one has a problem when you speak sense..It is only the swings that cause all the trouble

Defender

md

For example , we humans at present don't know whether there is life or not outside earth.So we cannot
simply reject the existence of life outside.

Do one favour to me.Just go through my posts and tell me where I make a staement on existance/non
existance of aliens.

Seems u missed it completely,topic is about message transmission by shooting stars.

md

You'll can judge Quran only on the basis of established Scientific facts.

Then please do apply.

As u sujjest,we shall consider this shooting star theory from qu'ran just a fairy tale/white lie till u prove
them

And dont run away at least this time.

And please do apply the theory of probability on Quran in terms of established Scientific facts ,you'll will
know how authentic and correct is Quran .I hope being engineers you'll know what is theory of
probability.

So far,I didnt challenge authenticity of qu'ran,nor I wish to.Off-course in terms of philosophy or say
message of allah.So,it will be better if u dont compel me,you may not like the results.

Saleel

Brothers Yashwant and Ali,

The following are some personal observations of mine, but since I'm neither a scholar of Qur'an or
astronomy, I'd appreciate if my more knowledgeable brethren could point out any mistakes in these :

The seven heavens [sab'a samawaat, as in 41:12, 67:03 etc. of the holy Qur'an] described in the holy
Qur'an are different from the seven layers of the atmosphere, in my humble opinion. They spread
much beyond what we comprehend. Allah says that He has adorned the lower heaven with stars [e.g.
37:6], so this can't possibly be the lowest layer of atmosphere, the troposphere. In fact, the entire sky
observed by us could be described by this. Further, in Ahadith describing the heavenly journey of
prophet Muhammed (SAW), the Mi'raj, e.g. 8:345 54:429 of Sahih Bukhari etc., have accounts of
prophet (SAW) meeting different prophets in different heavens, and even witnessed Allah's abode in
the highest heaven. Surely, we can't be speaking of the layers of atmosphere here. There are further
allusions in the Qur'an which support this, but lets go back to the topic of the thread now...

The verses quoted by brother Yashwant at the beginning describe Satans/Jinns who are repelled from
reaching the higher heavens by the stern guards posted there. If by any chance they overhear a bit,
they are pursued by a bright flame (from the root noun "shihab" in Arabic). So we are speaking of a
phenomenon happening near the boundary of the lower heaven (not the atmosphere), which might
not be even visible to us. Shihab has a primary meaning of a bright flame (as in all the translations of
the verses quoted, except in one place, where the term "meteor" is used). So this could very well be
some astronomical phenomenon unknown to us (as it is, we might not have accurate explanations
even for every incident in our own solar system). It might even be an allegory - a penalty of fire
chasing the evil ones might denote the punishment of hell-fire awaiting them in the Hereafter.

The holy Qur'an contains a clear message meant for the guidance of humanity, it is a complete book in
that regard. It also contains allegorical verses whose meaning might not be clear to us (and nor are
they required for our guidance). It is described thus:

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established
meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden
meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in
knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the
Message except men of understanding." [3:07]

As a Muslim, I would follow the advice above and rather go by the overall meaning (that the evil ones
will be punished by Allah), rather than try to speculate about its intricacies, which are not going to
benefit us anyway.

Allah knows best.

Thanks and peace....

.....taskeen

jazak allah brother Saleel

soheb

good work bro

can any one say that the sceintific discovery is complete

yashwant.IITR

saleel

only in one place the word 'meteor' has...........

it might be an allegory..............

as a muslim I .......

none of u, orkut alim - e deen know how to explain this shooting star business .

tum eeshwar to nahin ho . it is ok. Further, there is the fear of becoming a murtidd if u go into the
intricacies of islam

conclusion : THERE ARE PROBLEMS IN ISLAM WHICH MOMINS INCLUDING MOHAMMED SAHIB COULD
NOT EXPLAIN.

please send this Q to the IRF official forum and ask them to answer.

scrap me the answer . thanx in anticipaton.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8142696/Official-Challenge-to-Dr-Zakir-Naik-by-Sarvdeshik-Arya-Pratinidhi-
Sabha-

Topic is closed