Myself Versus Atheists & Friends

Discussion turned debate about Certainty, reason, and Intellect

Y_M_Riley 9/6/2006

So I noticed that there was a group who claimed they were trying to come to a understanding, or common ground, with people who say they are Atheists, and people who are Theists. My question: One thing I noticed when speaking to people of belief, and nonbelief: Atheists tend to say," Intellect is important, without it we are lost". Theists tend to say," Belief is important, because without it we are lost." But I question both of you, what good is intellect and Belief without reason? In the System I live by, The Creator says that we were given Belief, Intellect, and reason. People neglect reason more than often, hence, this is why wars begin. People would deny the truth, and live a lie. I believe in The Creator, and I stand against religion, because Religion prefers to divide people and leave their followers in ignorance. I stand against Atheism, because most atheists (that I know) Rejects belief due to selfishness, and lack of understanding of the way the universal laws work. When people pray for a change in a law which balances the universe, you're asking the Creator to change the law, yet there cannot be change, change one law, existence is endangered. When people pray for a change in something that can be changed instead of striving to cause a change nothing happens. Does a starving person needs a prayer, or do they need someone to help them and teach them how to survive? Faith would tell you to pray, The Creator will tell you to help them. No ignorance or negative feedback. Only a reasonable response is needed. Peace to all. Rekab Mada: Intellect is a reasoned response to evidence one is presented. So when an atheist says, "Intellect is important, without it we are lost." They are considering reason. On the other hand belief is an unreasoned response to a lack of evidence. So really, the only ones who are ignoring reason is the theist. This is because it takes no reasoning to hold a belief without evidence. In factor it is counter intuitive to the concept of reason. "Reason is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, for establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information. Intellect is a term used in studies of the human mind, and refers to the ability of the mind to come to correct conclusions about what is true or real, and about how to solve problems. Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true." Look at those definitions and tell me which one, intellect or belief, requires reason? Me: Thank you for the response. But there is one thing: "Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true." So if a person with Intellect can come to correct conclusions about what is true or real, and about how to solve problems, wouldnt they believe in those answers? If so, how then can you say that belief is a psychological state in which a person holds a premise or proposition to be true? Would not that make intellect a psychological state as well as reason? This is what Im saying, All 3 needs each other. If you don't believe in what you can see and prove, then do you truly have reason and intellect? If you believe but cannot prove, do you really have reason and intellect?

Rekab Mada: I will concede that one must hold a belief that what they are observing is true (or coincides with an objective reality) but even this is not the same as a faith based belief. You can collect evidence to show that this is the case, such as asking others who have observed things whether what you are witnessing is similar to

what they are. Now, in this instance you have to believe that what you are hearing from them is true, or that your senses in hearing these things reflect an objective reality. You could keep going with this ad nauseum. It is more simply to concede that one must hold a belief that their sense are "telling the truth" most of the time or fall victim to extreme skepticism. Upon further consideration of your post, I guess that it is not belief that I hold issue with as much as it is faith. I think that I confused the two concepts since they are so often used interchangeably, and incorrectly so. I have no problem with the idea that one must have belief, intellect and reason in order to have a complete understanding of the world around them. As for your other claims about a creator, see my post below if you would like to know my feelings about that. I am certainly not an atheist because of a "lack of understanding of the way the universal laws work." In fact, if you read my post, my atheism stems from my understanding of the universe and its laws as opposed to a rejection or denial of them. Jeffrey Black: Reason is intertwined with intellect. Smart/intelligent people are typically reasonable. Without intelligence, you cannot reason. Reason is typically a trait of the intelligent. So by saying intellect is required, they mean reason as well. "I stand against Atheism, because most atheists (that I know) Rejects belief due to selfishness, and lack of understanding of the way the universal laws work." This isn't any atheist I know. We reject unsubstantiated beliefs, as they are garbage and indistinguishable from fiction. Reason would also reject those beliefs. It has nothing to do with selfishness or lack of understanding. "Does a starving person needs a prayer, or do they need someone to help them and teach them how to survive?" If prayer worked, then they could receive food from prayer. If a god actually gave a crap, they wouldn't be starving in the first place. However, in reality, you are right. Prayer will do nothing, as there is no god to pray to get change. Actual people need to do things for things to happen. One hand doing work is far more effective than a trillion clasped in prayer. So if a person with Intellect can come to correct conclusions about what is true or real, and about how to solve problems, Wouldn't they believe in those answers? Yes they would. If so, how then can you say that belief is a psychological state in which a person holds a premise or proposition to be true?" Because it is. "Would not that make intellect a psychological state as well as reason?" No. How come just because A would lead to B, and B is X, then A must be X? That is not reasonable or rational. If you don't believe in what you can see and prove, then do you truly have reason and intellect?" But beliefs come last. You have so many people that start at beliefs and try and reason from them. The intelligent people start with reality and reason using intellect to reach beliefs.

Steve Lee: I stand against Atheism, because most atheists (that I know) Rejects belief due to selfishness, and lack of understanding of the way the universal laws work." If an atheist lacks understanding of the laws of physics, why would that cause you to stand against atheism? It doesn't follow. As for 'reject belief in whatever god it is that you claim exists, due to selfishness', whatever does you mean? Atheists Vs. Religion: My question exactly Steve. ? (Lyn) Elvis Knucklehead: Don't you just love when religious "arguments" fall flat on their face? Tries to imply that faith is reasonable by using an unreasonable logic. Faith is to believe something WITHOUT evidence/reason. Otherwise it wouldn't be faith, it'd be knowledge. Me: Rekab Ill read your post below later. Fell flat on its face? This just got started. And don't call this an argument, its a discussion bruh. Now, lets get down to it, I just woke up, starting with Jeffrey Black: "We reject unsubstantiated beliefs, as they are garbage and indistinguishable from fiction. Reason would also reject those beliefs. It has nothing to do with selfishness or lack of understanding." Garbage is when a person manipulates your mind from an early age, the problem is, and most people follow those around them, and do not think or consider what is in the book. There is no reason for a person to be an Atheists, save that they deny truth in all honesty. The purpose of God was not to create miracles, but to explain the system of Peace. "If prayer worked, then they could receive food from prayer. If a god actually gave a crap, they wouldn't be starving in the first place. However, in reality, you are right. Prayer will do nothing, as there is no god to pray to get change. Actual people need to do things for things to happen. One hand doing work is far more effective than a trillion clasped in prayer." Can't blame God, when man created the problem. God gave us the book explaining all things, and he said that "God won't change the condition of a man, until that man changes his own condition". So if Prayer was a factor, the why would God say that man must strive for change? I agree that prayer is not even a factor. Action and good deeds is what I understand from the Quran that is what will cause progress. As for the last questions, Simple enough, your interpretation of the term belief contradicts, and its obvious now that Atheism is a religion, because it enjoins belief of science sir Now, to you Steve: "If an atheist lacks understanding of the laws of physics, why would that cause you to stand against atheism? It doesn't follow. As for 'reject belief in whatever god it is that you claim exists, due to selfishness', whatever you mean?" Its not physics that causes me to stand against it. Its your lack of reverse questioning that causes me to stand against. "For every Positive, there is a negative right?" If you ask how can we prove that God exists, why not ask how can we prove that God doesn't exist? There was never nothing, something always was otherwise there would not have been particles which existed prior to the creation of the universe. And there are things smaller than quarks which caused the Quarks to even become. I don't make claims, Using intellect, its obvious something proportioned, balanced, and guided these universal laws in order to allow existence to become. Tries to imply that faith is reasonable by using an unreasonable logic. Faith is to believe something WITHOUT evidence/reason. Otherwise it wouldn't be faith, it'd be knowledge."

I never implied unreasonable logic, not even once. I never implied faith; its another word for Ignorance. I implied that Belief without intellect or reason is ignorance, as it would be with intellect w/o belief. I bring evidence when I discuss these points. The Qur'an tells us to use our reason & intellect, and believe in what we can prove. If any of you have not noticed by now, I do not follow the "religion of Islam" that was created by those calling themselves Sunnis. I debate those guys all the time, because they go against the Qur'an in favor of the tales of Arabs. I follow the system and covenant of peace, which is the true way with the Creator. Islam means peace, In the Bible, it is called Eshalom (See Jeremiah, 28:9 Hebrew to English version). If a person does not strive for peace with the Earth and their fellow man, stand against war, ignorance and corruption, then this world will never have peace. This is God's system for man, just like physics is the system established for the universe, The Creator says everything has its system/way to adhere to. If what I say is not true, then I would be a liar. But I have been nothing but truthful in my words. Micke Srenborg: "Islam means peace" XD. Jokes aside, we can put up a sequence of importance to the three "intellect, reason, belief". To be able to reason, or indeed to believe, we need intellect. So intellect is the highest, or most important one. To believe, we need to reason. So reason is second. Ergo, belief is last, and the least important. In fact, we could do without belief, if all things were reasonable. Obviously they are not, so we need a certain amount of belief. Now, if we interchange "belief" with "faith", all things in that light, are reasonable, so religious faith is not necessary at all. Me: Atheists like you are no different from the same theists you abhor. You take sincerity of a man who does not believe in religion, and disregard it as nonsense. Please don't take me for a joke. I have the same respect and courtesy to take all of you seriously. You give Intellect, reason, and belief levels of importance, which is wrong. All 3 are equally important. Without reason, you have no sense. Without intellect, you have no mind to think and reflect off the physical signs that are apparent. Without belief, you wont stand for anything, not even the truth derived from scientific knowledge. They are equal in terms of level of importance. Atheists Vs. Religion: a lot of the suffering in the world is caused by weather conditions. How is that manmade? "Most people follow those around them, and do not consider what is in the book." Why do you even need a book to tell you that God exists and how to behave? How are we being dishonest by not believing the characters in this book are real, any more than you are being dishonest in not believing that the characters in Lord of the Rings are real? And where does selfishness come into it? I have no problem with your beliefs , you sound like a very intelligent, pleasant young man, and I just hope this page teaches you a little more about atheism. (Lyn) Me: Most of the world's problems are caused by weather? Ok, who caused global warming, thru deforestation, and pollution? Man. People need books to teach them things... just like people need science books to learn science, math books to learn math. There is no contest there. Books are necessary to give us a foundation to build on, in hopes of further evolving theories that are in place currently. The Constitution of the United States is based off of many laws, including the Qur'an, in order to create their laws. Yes, Im learning more from you guys daily, Atheists are the only people I feel I can discuss things with reason, logic, and sense... I done debated Islamic scholars with a Ph.D., and destroyed them, Imams, Pastors, and Priests. I only see a challenge in debating respectfully of course with atheists. However, Selfishness, on many atheists parts, comes from the wish for God to change the outcome of something man caused, or a natural thing, I.E. Death of a loved one. If everyone had been granted the power to give life, then we'd still be fighting crusaders, Vikings, Mongols, and Nazis.

However, some genuinely feel they have the sufficient proof to not believe. These are the atheists Im looking for. Dishonesty is not belief in the person. Their only importance in the scriptures was to deliver a message. This message was Peace. With self, man, woman, society, nature. Hence, the message is more than often misunderstood by people who claim to be a protector or learned one of it. I go against these people, because they hide the truth and mix it up with falsehood. Atheists Vs. Religion: have you suffered bomb attacks in the name of Islam? Do you think twice about getting on a train with someone wearing a backpack? Have you heard people in your own country saying that they want to kill everyone in it that isn't a Muslim? Have you experienced ANY kind of terrorism in the name of Islam? We have. Micke has every right to laugh at you when you say Islam is a religion of peace since he has experienced just the opposite. Please don't dismiss what we have gone through in the name of your religion. You may say you don't follow it but you do follow the book which says to kill unbelievers. This is the same book extremists follow. Just because you read something different into it doesn't mean it isn't used to justify what they do. (Lyn) Me: I have... September 11th, I was there; I grew up in a gang and drug infested neighborhood, and dealt with crime, and sometimes police who saw me as the black Thug who would never become anything in life but a criminal. I saw the towers fall with my own eyes... hence, why I went to The Military to fight, so you cannot use that fight on me. Atheists Vs. Religion: are you in the armed forces ? (Lyn) Me: I don't hate anybody for their belief, or their race. I can honestly say I stood up for something. And I was willing to die for my people, Americans. I am formerly. I am disabled psychologically with PTSD I just want to bring the truth to light, and expose these hypocrites. Steve Lee: "its not physics that causes me to stand against it." Then I suggest in future you be more clearly with what you think you want to say. Your statement was that you stood against atheism because you apparently know some atheists that don't understand the laws of physics, (unless you had some other laws in mind). I don't understand how the one has been attained from the other. Ok, you know some scientifically ignorant atheists.. Whats that got to do with atheism and your being against it? Explain yourself sir! Further, you fail to even attempt to answer my question. What do you mean when you claim they "reject belief (in whatever god it is that you claim exists) due to selfishness"? Explain yourself. " Its your lack of reverse questioning that causes me to stand against." Ah! Now it's my entire fault you stand against atheism! It's because I lack reverse questioning.. You make no sense young man. "If you ask how can we prove that God exists, why not ask how can we prove that God doesn't exist?" What? You stand against atheism because if someone makes claim to something and people ask for evidence, they can easily, (but fallaciously), ask them to prove their nonsense is not real? Again, you're not making any coherent sense. "Its obvious something proportioned...." Its obvious" is not evidence, it's the fallacious reasoning of someone that certainly won't make a good scientist, and who has abandoned reason and evidence in preference of personal feelings.

"The sun travels around the planet. What makes you say that? It's bloody obvious, look at it" No. Daniel Kenji Fukunaga:A s an American I'd like to extend my hand to you and thank you for serving in our armed forces. And as an aside, I hope you're getting some help for your PTSD. My dad has PTSD from Vietnam, which went untreated for far too long. Atheists Vs. Religion: Sorry to hear about your PTSD . I know a couple of young soldiers who fought over there who are suffering too. I'm not surprised. The Taliban are bastards and it's an absolute hellhole place to fight in. (Lyn) Me: Steve I actually did answer your question, when I was referencing atheists who question why God does not change the condition of men, I said in the Qur'an, God says that God doesn't change the condition of man, until they strive to change their condition. Its through action of virtue that God allows things to change. Ill answer your other questions in a sec Atheists Vs. Religion: God doesn't change the condition of man until they strive to change their condition? So we are just left to take care of ourselves then? And until we make headway he won't help us? So what is the point of God then? (Lyn) Steve Lee: " in the Qur'an, [humans claim that a] God says that God doesn't change the condition of man" I am unsure how this helps answer my question. You said that atheists reject belief in gods, specifically yours in this instance, because of selfishness. How so? Saying that a god does or does not change peoples emotions or nature or underwear is of no relevance to anything. Me: I enjoy all of you guys' intellect and reasoning. It entices my heart and mind. This is why I enjoy this page. Give me a second to read everything please. And thank you for acknowledging my service to protect my people and anyone else I may have benefited. God's purpose is to maintain the balance. That is it. See, God gave us the strength and intellect to change this world, and we have, but not in a positive way for nature. God made it so that we have full control over our affairs, but not so that we violate the natural order of things. @Steve, Allow me to explain my words. The selfishness in many atheists, not saying all Atheists, comes from them asking why God does not intervene with mankind's affairs. There is much sickness and corruption in the world. When a person begins to despair instead of striving, that is to make a change, they then begin to experience a thing called cognitive Dissonance. Or in the case they ask God to not allow a certain person to die, or why does God allow poverty. Atheist strength comes from the realization that Man must do things himself and be rational about it to make things happen. Hence, the selfishness comes from a person desiring change, but not striving for it, and Blaming God for it. Sure God has power, but God's power is over the laws in which everything abides by. Im sure you all know the law of cause and effect. For every action there is a reaction right. Imagine, if you and a million people stood up and fought to end all wars, what will happen after we were to be victorious? Eternal peace, but only if we understand the root of the world's problems. If a plague or any sickness comes, we go to war with it, study it to better understand it in order to defeat it. One must understand that it is not God who caused all of these problems, but men who uses The Creator's description to wreak havoc on others. Man is weak, hateful and easily manipulated. Oh, I forgot to distinguish belief. Maybe this will make my point, or rather my question, much better understood. There are 2 forms of belief. On one side, you have belief in the aspect of faith. This is simply blindly following something due to desire, as most religious folk does, this is the reason Atheists are at odds with them. Then you have Belief in the aspect of certainty, in which your intellect and reason can distinguish between truth and falsehood, this is

what myself, as well as all of you align more with. Belief in what we can prove. Im really enjoying this discussion. I love intellect and rationality.

Benjamin Hatch: I don't know of any atheist ever that blames "god" for anything, being that we don't believe one exists... I do blame the god CONCEPT for many atrocities, but this has nothing to do with selfishness, at least as far as I can see. Me: I do know of atheists who does. Because of how they word and detail their questions. Hence why I said many, and not all. I know lots of atheists, in fact some of my siblings and cousins are as well. I also know of atheists who using the limits of their reason, resolved in themselves w/o selfish reason that they turn to it.

Mary Wood: - going back to your OP and the first couple of responses, I'm seeing the classic fallacy of conflating "belief" based on evidence versus "belief" based on faith and calling it all the same. Go outside and cross the street. Why did you cross the street when you did? What made you "believe" it was safe to cross? I'm guessing because you looked both ways and saw/heard no traffic, or better yet at an intersection where you had the traffic signal on your side. Or there was traffic coming but based on past experience and observation you knew you would make it across the street well before the car got there. Now try crossing the street with earplugs and a blindfold. Ok, well, don't actually try it, but why wouldn't you? What in that instance would make you "believe" it is safe to cross the street? With no empirical evidence, no difference in your surroundings between safe-to-cross/unsafe-to-cross but only your faith? *That* is the difference when we say "belief" in terms of faith as opposed to "belief" based on scientific method, reason, and observation. Me: but, my contention is that most people, atheists, and theists alike, do not perform a polarity check. Ex: Asking how can we prove God exists, but not asking how can it be proven that God doesn't. In science, one of the main rules is that something is not fact until proven, if it cannot be proven, don't follow it, but keep researching.

Steve Lee: "The selfishness in many atheists, Not saying all Atheists, comes from them asking why God does not intervene with mankind's affairs... the selfishness comes from a person desiring change, but not striving for it, and Blaming God for it." What a peculiar statement. An atheist does not believe that gods exist and as such do not blame any for anything. Perhaps you don't understand what an atheist is? In your own words, you are against atheism because you falsely believe that those atheists, who don't believe in gods, don't strive for change and just blame everything on gods they don't believe in? What a mess. Me: LOL Mary that is a good understanding of it. I agree completely with what you said, "When we say "belief" in terms of faith as opposed to "belief" based on scientific method, reason, and observation." However, the fallacy of belief lies in that blindfold. Emotion causes Humans to become stupid. This is why belief with certainty is way better than belief with faith, because certainty means you Researched and rationalized understanding of a thing or topic. Many people, who become Atheists, were not always Atheists Steve. Im positive many of you came for religious families, so how can it be false, when a person's questioning make it evident? You will have to define a better way to detail what you see as a mess, this understanding and discussion is very perplexing for many individuals. But its actually common sense. My purpose is not to

convince anyone. My purpose is only conveyance of truth. If you and everyone are for truth, then we have a discussion. If not, there is nothing to discuss, because a person would rather live a lie. Atheists Vs. Religion: No you DON'T know any atheists who blame God for anything. You may know theists who are mad at their God for what they see as him not doing what they think he should be doing, but atheists don't believe God exists so how can they blame him for anything? When we argue here we don't argue about a God WE believe exists but one that YOU do, and its very arrogant of you to say that you know the truth and we Don't. We are all adults and like you say many of us come from religious backgrounds. Are you saying that God has revealed the truth (whatever that's supposed to mean) to you but not to us? (Lyn) Steve Lee: Many people who become Atheists, were not always Atheists Steve." I am well aware of this, thank you - but it does not save your erroneous statement. If someone is a theist, (believes in a god), and cannot reconcile the claimed existence of such entity and the existence of abject suffering or disease or tsunamis and becomes an atheist, (no longer has a belief in a god), then you can't argue that they are blaming a god they don't believe in for the state of the world. Instead, they considered the two things incompatible and hence dispensed with the obviously false notion, (that of an existent god with the definition theism typically espouses). This is not a matter of blaming anything, but logic and the incompatibility of a claim with observed factual reality. What you call 'common sense' is really just your complete ignorance of the subject matter. "My purpose is not to convince anyone. My purpose is only conveyance of truth" Oh! Well why didn't you just say so right at the beginning? That would have changed everything. 0_o Look, I know some people think this catchy nonsense is going to win themselves points, or somehow lend credence to their arguments, but it simply doesn't work that way. I've heard the old 'I'm here to speak truth so anyone that disagrees is against truth and living a lie" buffoonery before and I am not impressed. (LMAO, Then the Cognitive Dissonance develops) Jeffrey Black: There is no reason for a person to be an Atheists, save that they deny truth in all honesty. ARROGANT BULLSHIT! Grow the fuck up or fuck off to somewhere that might appreciate your stupidity and bullshit. Mary Wood: In science, one of the main rules is that something is not fact until proven, if it cannot be proven, don't follow it, but keep researching. Not quite. True that few in science will toss out the word "fact" easily, but many things can be "proven beyond reasonable doubt. To use Glee's wonderful spin on Russell's Teapot example: No one can prove that there does *not* exist a magical teapot floating on the dark side of the moon with a dwarf inside of it that reads romance novels and shoots lightning out of its boobs. But it's highly unlikely. And moreover, we do *not* have to therefore accept it as just-as-likely-to-be-true and keep researching the possibility. No one has brought forth convincing evidence that such a thing *might* exist; therefore, the default is that it doesn't. In the case of religion, we have hundreds and millions of myths, known as myths, treated rightfully as myth, except every now and then someone demands that this one myth is absolutely true, even though its evidence for truth is no better than anything else being acknowledged as myth. So, still no need to accept it as true until proven otherwise. That said, science *does* keep researching it. Every single scientific discovery, test, experiment, observation, has the potential for God to jump out and say "Surprise! Magic." Yet, nothing.

Me: Hmmm? When did I say I know the truth and you don't? Please quote it. I know Many atheists, I been around the world and back. I know many people. And I know many of them are atheists. That is pure conjecture Lyn. Its the indication that a person is struggling to understand what is being said, or in Arrogance, is just plainly denying reason and evidence. I did not say that God revealed truth to me and not you guys who say you are atheists, but it is you who says God did not reveal anything. Steve, 1st and foremost: If someone is a theist, (believes in a god), and cannot reconcile the claimed existence of such entity and the existence of abject suffering or disease or tsunamis and becomes an atheist, (no longer has a belief in a god), then you can't argue that they are blaming a god they don't believe in for the state of the world." Im not sure I understand you correctly, but are you saying that they can blame God but nobody can argue it? If so, that is possibly the most illogical thing a person can say. If a person blames God then rejects him (Becomes an Atheist), then its because they are not using rationality sir. If a person, instead of doing the human thing that is looking for a person to blame looks for a solution to the Conflict, Then they would not had been Questioning to begin with. They considered the two things incompatible and hence dispensed with the obviously false notion, (that of an existent god with the definition theism typically espouses). This is not a matter of blaming anything, but logic and the incompatibility of a claim with observed factual reality." This is a false Notion that cannot be proven. Again, that statement denies reasoning and the science rule that states, "If it is not proven, then it is not fact." There is no incompatibility, because Things do not happen by chance, thru luck of the draw, or by coincidence. There is only what is probable and improbable (or rather possible, or impossible). If a person can question how can it be proven that there is a God, the same can be asked, how can it be proven that there isn't a God? "What you call 'common sense' is really just your complete ignorance of the subject matter. My purpose is not to convince anyone. My purpose is only conveyance of truth Oh! Well why didn't you just say so right at the beginning? That would have changed everything. 0_o. Look, I know some people think this catchy nonsense is going to win themselves points, or somehow lend credence to their arguments, but it simply doesn't work that way. I've heard the old 'I'm here to speak truth so anyone that disagrees is against truth and living a lie" buffoonery before and I am not impressed." Ignorance? I an understanding and rationalizing clearly, the one who is exhibiting ignorance of the matter is you, you speak to me in an insulting way when I have done no such thing to you. The debate is lost once one begins to fire Insults, and conjecture. Who care for points, I am an individual. If I wanted points, Id play NBA 2k13. But again, Im not here for points, Im here for intellectual discussion with people who like to use Intellect, and not Ignorance. Again, as I said earlier, if you aren't for truth there is no discussion, live your lie. I will tell anyone that. And I would expect the same if they felt it was a lie. I heard it all; from the, "I heard that before", to the, "Well why is the majority following this or that?" When a person disregards something, they say meh, Stories of the ancients. But, how can these ancient stories expose lies, and what is truly in a person's heart? Simple, they hate what is true, and love what is false. The people that say well why does the majority...? If you follow the majority they will lead you astray. Hence why most people today are lost cause instead of doing and looking at self, they want to worry about others. So please, don't bring me that lame statement. I done heard that too.

Now, Back to business. If you take this as an argument, it becomes that. Im not arguing, nor do I feel any malice or anything. I've been calling this a discussion. Im trying my best to exhibit that there are no ill feelings on my part. As I said, I only wish to convey truth, be it from you, or from me. Now my question is, w/o God, or without bias to any belief or nonbelief, what are ways man can create solutions, establish peace, and change the state of the world today? What are these root causes, or the source of all the problems on Earth? Mary Wood: On theism as "common sense," we *do* have an inherent, primal instinct (as do all animals) to assume agency behind unknown dangers. I.e.; better to be afraid of the thing that goes bump in the night, putting our senses on heightened alert, than to assume it's just the wind, let our guard down, and get eaten by the tiger that's actually lurking there. This instinct however is not "common sense." It is an emotional survival mechanism. "Common sense" is to investigate the unknown with caution but without bias to discover it is a tiger, the wind, etc. In the case of most atheists having once been theism, that is cultural tradition playing into the aforementioned instinctive fear of the unknown and instinct to assume agency. Cultural tradition is not common sense. It is often the exact opposite of common sense. This is why we woke up and became atheists. Me: Question. They say that the universe has edges, or ends. Mary, have we been able to see those ends? Or beyond them? If not, how do they know this? People did not believe in Hobbits, yet Homo Floriensus proves that there were hominids in the pacific who bares resemblance to Hobbits, hence their name. People did not believe in Giant whales and Squids and Octopuses, yet, they are there. People did not believe that the Earth was round, yet it is. Things take time. Finding The Creator is Easy, because all of these signs, which we call science, are evident that something created it. Why isn't there an explanation how something could have existed when there was "Nothing"? How come people believe in Dark matter's existence, yet you cannot see it? Again, just because you cannot see it does not mean it isn't there. Just because you cannot see cells or bacteria with the naked eye does not mean they do not exist. People look to the heavens to find God, when God's essence is everywhere, including within us. Agreed, a person's cultural tradition, fear, instinct, etc. does not have anything to do with common sense, it is a natural reaction. However, when a person decides to delve to understand things outside of their understanding, they continue pursuing (As I am doing), Give up and decide its not truth, or simply revert back to Ignorance. That I do agree with. Many people have their reasons for becoming atheists, the discussion is not about why, but Proof, using Intellect, certainty, and Reasoning. So lets stay on that. Im not asking anyone to believe as I do, because even if I desired that, nobody would unless they wanted to. All Im asking for is for us to find understanding in these differences through reasoning, proof and intellect. You all can tell Im not a blind follower of a person's Ideologies, but that, like you all, uses my mind and senses to try to figure out solutions. Hence, why I keep saying I am enjoying this discussion, because Im learning from you, and Im sure you all are seeing things from me. Atheists Vs. Religion: I don't know how many times you have to hear this before you take it in. ATHEISTS DON'T BELIEVE ANY GODS EXIST. We do not blame God for anything. If you hear someone say that they blame God they are NOT atheists. And Jeffrey please keep your comments civil. Thanks. (Lyn) Me: and Again Lyn, when they are faced with it, the 1st response is," if there is a God, then why does he allow these things to happen?" its not Theatrics. Its fact of the matter. Atheists Vs. Religion: You said that your purpose is only to convey the truth. This implies that you know something that we don't. Please don't treat us like fools, we can read. (Lyn) Me: If I had a nickel for every time a person said that, I would be pretty rich. I debated many times. But there is no purpose for debate when a person insists on insult or lies (not aimed at anybody here). So I figured that a nice discussion over coffee about things, where everyone can question, is more civil and much more fun, because both parties learn. Hence, why I wanted to discuss this. If a person does not believe in God, that's

their prerogative. We as human beings have the right to believe in what we wish. But people should never be attacked for it. People should be willing to help others, no matter what color, race or school of thought they follow. The human race survives due to our ability to adapt and overcome things, not because a person thinks they are better or another is undeserving of civility. No, its nothing of the like. I call my understanding truth, as you call your understanding truth. Its slang for what I understand. Atheists Vs. Religion: You may not think you are being insulting but your condescension towards grownups is starting to grate. (Lyn) Me: grownups? Since when is talking like a high school student grown up? An insult only affects a person, when they cannot handle what is being said. If what I said was insulting, you have my apologies. But expect a like response when an insult is hurled at me. I see some dissonant cognition of some here. If you like we can just end the discussion with to you your ways, and to me mines. 1st, Im asked if I ever experienced terror, when I saw the towers fall, and did my time in the military. Next I say Islam, in terms of the word means peace, and people taunt it. yet Im being as you said," condescending* towards grownups", as If Im not a grown up? And Im arrogant?