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advance of 77 Million Paintings premiere both in North America and in Second Life, on
Joi Ito's nonprofit island, Kula 2. Thanks for your support, Joi!]
May 26, 02007
Alexander Rose: These days I spend most of my time working on the 10,000 Year
Clock, but I should probably give a little background first yes?
AUDIENCE: Yes.
Alexander Rose:The Long Now Foundation was started in 01996 by Danny Hillis (super
computer designer) and Stewart Brand (creator of the Whole Earth Catalog) as an
incubator for projects that might increase cultural attention span. It started when Danny
told Stewart about his idea for large very slow clock that could be an icon for long term
thinking. Stewart added the notion of a library, or long term information service that
could help a culture remember its past.
Bryan Campen: So is 77 Million Paintings, from its inception, another way to increase
the cultural attention span?
Alexander Rose: Actually I have found Brian’s email about this which I will share here…
“it’s about time and about stretching one’s sense of now. That’s why I keep sending
these things to the Long Nowists: I’m sure there’s a connection between what I’m doing
here and what we as a group are trying to achieve….” This was in response to another
board member (Kevin Kelly [founder of Wired Magazinebc]) asking about its altarlike
form that it was presented in at the Venice Biennialle. “And it does function as an altar
not so much because it’s a cross but because it induces the state of surrender which
religious experience can also induce. I said rather flippantly during my press conference
in Venice that perhaps this could be thought of as religion without God, but now I’m
starting to think I may be on to something there.” Brian Eno
Bryan Campen: You mention the religious aspect, and it reminds me of the fact that
Long Now by its very nature extends beyond our lifetimes.
Alexander Rose: Yes but we have certainly made a conscious choice to not be a
religion. But we have set guidelines that were designed specially around how to be long
lived. Things like “take no sides”. “Ally with competition” is another very important one.
Bryan Campen: Yes. You once mentioned, I think at an 01999 interview after you
finished the first prototype, that clocks and clock prototypes would continue to be
created long after you were gone. The scale of the entire thing is so enormous. And
then with Eno’s 77 Million Paintings, to watch all the permutations and variations it
would take, at top speed, something like 9,000 years. So how do you reconcile work at
such a huge scale with working in the here and now?
Alexander Rose: Well we certainly have dealines too…
[laughter]
Alexander Rose: We are a group of people that are very deep in technology. This is very
much not about ignoring or rebelling against speed or tech. It's more about finding some
of the issues that are more necessarily long term. The story of the beams at New
College Oxford is one of the best examples…
Bryan Campen: Can you tell it?
Alexander Rose: The hall there was built in the 1300’s when it was the “new college”,
and 500 years later when they needed to replace the beams they could not buy them
readily in Europe anymore. However when they talked to the school forrester, he said
“we have the tree you planted”, the trees I mean. So they were able to replace these
beams with the trees that were planted 500 years before. It was this type of thinking that
our founding board felt was not happenning anymore. Something as simple as throwing
down some acorns, solving a truly unsolvable problem if leveraged correctly. So
problems with the environment, hunger, education all have this feeling of being
unsolvable now. But in fact if you look at them much longer term they can become
tractable. Anyway that was the basic inspiration around the Foundation.
Bryan Campen: Because Long Now views issues in terms of centuries: what do you see
as the most tractable problems over the coming century?
Alexander Rose: Well I would not say they are tractable in the current mind set but, I
would say the largest long term challenges we have are clearly going to be around
climate and, to a large extent religious issues that have back stories going back
millennia that are just now coming to head as globalization flattens the world. The
problem of course is that politically is very difficult to attack problems longer than your
election horizon (if that). Politicians run the danger of putting something in motion that
their successor may get credit for.
Bryan Campen: So they don’t see an incentive to do it at all.
Alexander Rose: Right. One of the Seminars we did was with John Rendon. He has
been the publicity consultant to 5 white houses in times of war. It was interesting to me
that he did not even understand the question when it was posed by the audience and
moderator about “the Iraq agenda”. He was so wrapped up in the 15 minute to 24hr
news cycle that an agenda beyond that was pretty inconceivable.
Bryan Campen: more than a little disconcerting.
Alexander Rose: Indeed.
Question and Answer Session
Alvis Brigis: So, does Long Now endorse farsighted political candidates? Alexander
Rose: That falls in the category of ‘taking sides’ which we DON’T do
Alvis Brigis: Word
Alexander Rose: We would certainly do what we can to encourage them however.
Tish Shute: I would love to know what Alexander Rose thinks about the role of virtual
worlds in positive global development?
Alexander Rose: good question. I would say that at least for me I see them as a
excellent sand box, a place where things can be tested both visually and socially. I think
its very important to have. An environment like this to do that.
Jeremy Ettinghausen: What sort of people are members of long now?
Alexander Rose: You mean members of our recently launched membership program?
Or do you mean our staff and board?
Jeremy Ettinghausen: er … both?
Alexander Rose: Well I have just been looking through statistics on the now 1015 or so
members. They are largely based here in the Bay Area (about 60%). Which is
interesting because the main benefit is being able to watch the Seminar series videos
via the net. We are now at over 200,000 audio downloads of the seminar series per
month. Mostly by podcast.
Ducce Lykin: So there are no international members?
Inigo Kamachi: I am one!
Alexander Rose: There are certainly, so far about 15%. But the stats on the browsers
say they are 93% english speaking which makes sense.
Bryan Campen: Are there plans for making Long Now more global?
Alexander Rose: North America, Britain, and Australia mainly. I think the best thing we
could do would be generate a way to crowdsource* the translation of our Seminar
series. That is by far our most popular public thing. And it spans the broadest range of
interest since it is a different speaker each month. For those of you who dont know it
you can click SEMINARS on our web page at longnow.org
Inigo Kamachi: Can I ask a specific question about 77 million paintings in SL?
Bryan Campen: Angrybeth’s (Annabeth Robinson’s) work is really brilliant and coming
out on Friday, right here at 8pm.
Alexander Rose: I saw a preview yesterday and the work that she did as well as the
others she worked with was really stunning
Bryan Campen: Question from aisling sinclair: question for alexander rose: his ideas on
what may be the most significant contributions to mechanical engineering and/or design
in the next century? also, does he see possibilities for breakthroughs in bionics any time
soon?
Alexander Rose: Okay so I guess I should take the question about mechanics. Re
reading the question I am not sure I am too qualified to answer about the most
significant mechanical advances and bionics…But I would say that the advances in the
intense miniaturization of componentsMEMS machining, etc. I think will be making
machinery possible that will seem like magic to us now. I would also say that the solid
state developments in nitonol wire, piezzo electronics etc will also be very important
Anything else?
Bryan Campen: Here is one more: Christopher Meredith: What does 77 Million hope to
achieve? What is the main agenda and how can it help to be spread?
Alexander Rose: I dont think I can necessarily answer for the artist, but I can take a stab
based on my conversations with him…The inspiration for 77 Million as Brian has related
it. was simply that he started seing these large LCD and plasma screens in peoples
homes that were blank whenever he was there. He thought it was a largely wasted
space and tech. He wanted something to take that space, much like he did with Music
for Airports, that did not steal attention, but added to the environment. In answer to ‘how
it can be spread’ , the obvious first step would be to buy a copy and install it But an
interesting thing happenned when it came time to copywright the piece… he basically
couldn’t. So he has made the images open basically. And I think this has interesting
ramifications in a generative world like SL. The images that the system starts with the
generate the ‘paintings’ are a collection from over 30 years of his experience. He very
much thinks of colors and images in relation to his music and i defiantely feel that this
work shows that. There is also generative music that is part of the DVD that works in
concert with the piece.
Christopher Meredith: With the long now way of thinking isn't SL almost too here and
now. For a large part of the people that are here, how do you plan for a long view in
SL?
Alexander Rose: I dont think we have to necessarily. This is as much about the present
as the past and future…I had a researcher from IBM India looking at one of the earliest
clock prototypes. He listened through my whole demo and then said “in 3000 years they
will be sacrificing virgins on this thing and all the blood and sinew will screw it all up”. I
responded that while that may be true, before he looked at the Clock he likely had not
thought about what our world would be like 3000 years from now… So in that respect it
is already working.
Christopher Meredith: lol
Bryan Campen: Wow.
Alexander Rose: So basically by simply changing the conversation, having the one we
are having now, we succeed.
Christopher Meredith: Interesting.
Alexander Rose: Yes.
Christopher Meredith: Surely there could be “works” that could inspire long thinking
here in SL though.
Alexander Rose: I sure would hope so. We certainly hope to build such things. Bryan
here has been instrumental in making all this happen, and this 77 Million Event is really
a test to gauge interest in what we are up to.
Bryan Campen: from yngwie krogstad: With a more longterm view, how much credit is
being given to the idea that Global Warming may not actually be entirely our fault, and
could ultimately correct itself, based on core samples from the ice packs that show the
Earth has gone through many global warming periods throughout history, and the fact
that the amount of pollutants we humans are contributing to the problem is far less than
what is being released through volcanic activity worldwide?
Alexander Rose: My personal view is that it doesnt matter what it is from. History shows
us that it changes a lot. I think the result of reducing emissions has enough local
benefits to health and quality of life that its worth doing for that alone. Tell em more
about recreating history?
Bryan Campen: word.
Alexander Rose: Over the long view we know its changing no matter what. So preparing
for it cant be a bad thing. We have two threads here. let me answer Veritas’ question.
"Veritas Variscan": I have a comment rather than question : I see that here in SL, we can
in some ways recreate history while using the present to dream of the future, so I think
Sl is a wonderful vehicle for longnow.org. Models can be created here. Sims devoted to
human history have already been created extensively. Mathematical models, weather
simulations, all these things can also be done here in SL.
Christopher Meredith: The media has a large part of contributing to a short view of
things, does long now address this issue at all?
Alexander Rose: I am basically pretty new to SL so learning about the simulation stuff is
very cool. I think it has large potential for helping people understand long term issues.
Regarding Hawks question…I agree that the media really makes us feel as though we
cant pay attention to things more long term. However examples of pieces done by media
outlets supported by listeners like NPR etc show that there is interest for a deeper
understanding. We now have the opportunity to choose our media more broadly than
ever before and I think that will also increase squeezing out a lot of what we see today.
If that is all, I will be signing off. But I really want to thank Bryan and AngryBeth
[Annabeth Robinson] and Artisan Hawks for all their amazing and hard work on this.
Also all the hosts of the sims. They deserve a round of applause.