KTR00085

Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION
NO. 05-4182 "K"(2)
PERTAINS TO: MRGO, ROBINSON JUDGE DUVAL
(NO. 06-2268)
MAG. WILKINSON
Videotaped deposition of LEO A. HUBERT, JR., 11

English Turn Court, New Orleans, Louisiana
70131, taken in the offices of the United States
Army Corps of Engineers, 7400 Leake Avenue, New
Orleans, Louisiana 70118, on Tuesday, the 15th
day of April, 2008, beginning at 9:01 a.m.
APPEARANCES:
LAMBERT & NELSON
(BY: HUGH P. LAMBERT)
701 Magazine Street
New Orleans, Louisiana 70130
AND
SHER GARNER CAHILL RICHTER KLEIN & HILBERT

(BY: R. SCOTT HOGAN)
28th Floor
909 Poydras Street
New Orleans, Louisiana 70112
ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
(504)525-1753 HUFFMAN & ROBINSON, INC. (800)749-1753

ONE SHELL SQUARE,#250 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS NEW ORLEANS, LA 70139
Page 2 Page 4
1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED: 1 INDEX
2 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
(BY: KEITH H. LIDDLE 2
3 SARAH SOJA) 3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 4 MR. LAMBERT 6
4 Post Office Box 888
Benjamin Franklin Station 5
5 Washington, D.C. 20044 6
6 AND 7
7 JENNIFER A. LABOURDETTE
Assistant District Counsel 8
8 Office of Counsel 9 EXHIBITS:
CEMVN-OC
9 UNITED STATES ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS
10 LH Exhibit Number 1 24
Post Office Box 60267 Document entitled "MR-GO FLOOD
10 New Orleans, Louisiana 70160-0267 11 GATES AT IHNC"
11 ATTORNEY FOR THE UNITED STATES
ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS AFW-467-000001786
12 12
13 LH Exhibit Number 2 25
ALSO PRESENT:
14 13 Document entitled "Mississippi
PHILIP S. BROOKS, JR. River-Gulf Outlet New Lock and
15 MONTGOMERY BARNETT 14 Connecting Channels Site Selection
Suite 3200
16 1100 Poydras Street Report"
New Orleans, Louisiana 70163-3200 15
17
JOSEPH E. BEARDEN, III
LH Exhibit Number 3 75
18 DUPLASS, ZWAIN, BOURGEOIS, MORTON, PFISTER 16 Handwritten notes
& WEINSTOCK 17
19 Suite 2900
3838 North Causeway Boulevard
18
20 Metairie, Louisiana 70002 19
21 KASSIE HARGIS 20
McCRANIE, SISTRUNK, ANZELMO, HARDY,
22 MAXWELL & McDANIEL 21
Suite 800 22
23 3445 North Causeway Boulevard 23
Metairie, Louisiana 70002
24 24
25 25
Page 3 Page 5
1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED: 1 STIPULATION
2 ATTENDING VIA I-DEP VIDEOSTREAMING: 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
3 MANAS MOHAPATRA
4 CHRISTOPHER THATCH 3 between counsel for the parties hereto that the
5 KIRK AURANDT 4 deposition of the aforementioned witness is
6 BRIAN RYCKMAN 5 hereby being taken under the Federal Rules of
7 WARREN GARDNER 6 Civil Procedure, for all purposes, in accordance
8
9 7 with law;
10 VIDEOTAPED BY: 8 That the formalities of reading and
11 KEN HART 9 signing are specifically not waived;
Legal Video Specialist 10 That the formalities of sealing,
12 HART VIDEO OF LOUISIANA, L.L.C.
Bay 5
11 certification and filing are specifically waived;
13 1185 Robert Boulevard 12 That all objections, save those as
Slidell, Louisiana 70458 13 to the form of the question and the responsiveness
14 14 of the answer, are hereby reserved until such
15
16
15 time as this deposition, or any part thereof, may
17 16 be used or sought to be used in evidence.
REPORTED BY: 17
18 18 * * * *
CAROL VALLETTE SLATER
19
19 Certified Court Reporter
Registered Professional Reporter 20 CAROL VALLETTE SLATER, Certified
20 21 Court Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
21 22 in and for the Parish of Orleans, State of
22
23
23 Louisiana, officiated in administering the oath
24 24 to the witness.
25 25
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 6 Page 8
1 LEO A. HUBERT, JR., 1 of the question and that the
2 after being first duly sworn in the cause by the 2 deposition can be used for all
3 court reporter, testified as follows: 3 purposes. Just a general rule.
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 All right. If you've got anything
5 Q. Mr. Hubert, my name is Hugh Lambert, 5 different to add, I'd like to hear
6 and I represent -- we both share the same 6 it.
7 nickname, Skip. So, if we get mixed up -- 7 MR. LIDDLE:
8 A. We'll work it out. 8 Of course, privilege
9 Q. Exactly. I represent the plaintiffs 9 objections.
10 in this matter, and I'll be asking you questions 10 MR. LAMBERT:
11 regarding primarily the MRGO, and it's hard to 11 Understood. All right.
12 separate some things, particularly, when they're 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 all connected, so, we'll be drifting into some 13 Q. Now, with that having been said, I
14 other areas as well. 14 give this other speech and everybody laughs when
15 Have you given depositions before, 15 I do, but I'll do it anyway. I call it the
16 sir? 16 chocolate cake speech. And what it is is it's a
17 A. Yes, I have. 17 definition of truth in terms of discovery
18 Q. How many occasions? 18 depositions. Because this is a discovery
19 A. Several. 19 deposition, I'm not confined to questions and
20 Q. You know the rules. I'm going to 20 you're not confined to answers which are
21 put them on the record so they're clear. The 21 admissible in court. That has nothing to do with
22 best -- the best way to start is the simplest 22 this testimony. So, I may ask you what you heard
23 rule, which is let's not talk over each other. 23 or what you think, and when I do, I may get an
24 I'll try to finish my question completely and you 24 objection from counsel. Unless you get an
25 answer and I will try to wait till you're 25 instruction not to answer, please answer anyway.
Page 7 Page 9
1 finished completely so that the court reporter 1 The reason being is that may lead me to other
2 has a clear record. Is that -- 2 discoverable information which will lead me to
3 A. I understand. 3 appropriate evidence. Chocolate cake. When's
4 Q. Okay. Good. The second thing is, 4 the last time you had chocolate cake? You may
5 and you're doing it right, verbal responses are 5 not remember the answer, but you may remember it
6 preferable. You can shake your head along with 6 was at a birthday party for a child or a friend
7 it if you'd like, yes and no, but the verbal 7 or whatever. And, so, the truthful answer to
8 response will make the record clearer so the 8 that question would not be I don't remember the
9 court reporter doesn't have to interpret. All 9 last time I had chocolate cake, because you do.
10 right? 10 You don't remember the date. So, then, you give
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 me whatever information you have about it and
12 MR. LAMBERT: 12 then I can find the record of when the birthday
13 I take it we're going to use 13 was and then I've got something I can handle.
14 the rules which includes reserving 14 Do you understand that?
15 objections except as to the form; 15 A. I understand.
16 is that correct? 16 Q. Okay. So, you are under oath. The
17 MR. LIDDLE: 17 same penalties for perjury apply for testimony
18 What the rules provide, yes, 18 given in this conference room as if we were
19 sir. 19 sitting in federal court. You understand that?
20 MR. LAMBERT: 20 A. I understand that.
21 Okay. Well, my 21 Q. Okay. I think I've covered the
22 interpretation of the rules, just 22 gamut. Now, if you would, please, give us your
23 so that we don't get hung up, is 23 full name and your address for the record.
24 that we're going to reserve all 24 A. Leo Arthur Hubert, Jr., 11 English
25 objections except as to the form 25 Turn Court, New Orleans, Louisiana, 70131.
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 10 Page 12
1 Q. All right. And your telephone 1 service during your deputy district --
2 number, please. 2 A. That's correct.
3 A. (504) 400-2955. 3 Q. -- engineering position at the
4 Q. All right. And your current 4 Corps?
5 occupation. 5 A. (Nods head affirmatively.)
6 A. I'm a part-time consultant. 6 Q. All right. Now, since 1999 --
7 Q. All right. And are you 7 scratch that. Let's back up.
8 incorporated? Do you work for a company? What's 8 In the time frame from 1978 to 1999,
9 the situation? 9 while you were with T.L. James, what were your
10 A. I work for my own company, L.A. 10 duties?
11 Hubert, Jr., L.L.C., a Louisiana L.L.C. 11 A. My initial assignment was as manager
12 Q. All right. I have in my little 12 of special projects, which meant that I did
13 notes that you've been doing that since 1999. 13 anything that they dreamt up, new business
14 A. That's correct. 14 development, sort of thing. From 1979 until
15 Q. Okay. And before that, I have your 15 1992, I was general manager of Gulf Coast
16 employment with T.L. James & Company; is that 16 Trailing Company and a vice president of T.L.
17 correct? 17 James. I did two things at that time. One, of
18 A. That's correct. 18 course, was to run Gulf Coast Trailing Company.
19 Q. And that was from 1978 to '99? 19 The other was I ran the Real Estate Development
20 A. That's correct. 20 Division for T.L. James. In 1992, I became the
21 Q. All right. For the three years 21 president of the T.L. James Marine Group, which
22 before 1978, I have you as district -- or deputy 22 meant that I supervised all marine operations and
23 district engineer for the United States Corps of 23 I held that position until the company was sold
24 Engineers. 24 in 1999.
25 A. That's also correct. 25 Q. Okay. As manager of special
Page 11 Page 13
1 Q. All right. Can you tell me what you 1 projects from '78 to '79, did any of those
2 did before 1975? 2 special products -- projects include work for the
3 A. Starting when? 3 Corps of Engineers?
4 Q. Good question. Let's start at '75 4 A. No.
5 and go backwards. 5 Q. Were you ever involved in the
6 A. It's easier to start at the 6 dredging department of T.L. James?
7 beginning and go forward, if you don't mind. I'm 7 A. Not during that time frame.
8 old and I don't remember things. 8 Q. Okay. What is Gulf Coast Trailing
9 I was in the Army from 1957 until I 9 Company?
10 retired in 1978. Early on in the Army, I was in 10 A. Gulf Coast Trailing Company was a
11 the infantry, then the artillery, then the Corps 11 hopper dredging company that T.L. James was a
12 of Engineers, and during that time frame, I went 12 partner in.
13 to University of Nebraska to get a Bachelor's 13 Q. Did the -- did that hopper dredging
14 degree and then Arizona State University to get a 14 operation have contracts with the Corps of
15 Master's degree, had a combination of mostly 15 Engineers?
16 combat unit assignments and some Corps of 16 A. Yes.
17 Engineers construction management assignments. 17 Q. What contracts? In other words, in
18 Q. All right. What was your degree in 18 general? I don't want specific contracts, but,
19 at Nebraska? 19 in general, what kind of work did Gulf Coast
20 A. Industrial engineering. 20 Trailing Company do for the Corps of Engineers?
21 Q. All right. At Arizona State? 21 A. It was a hopper dredging company,
22 A. A Master of Science in engineering 22 and it dredged in the Gulf coast and on the east
23 management. 23 coast of the United States.
24 Q. Okay. And I take it then since you 24 Q. What -- how many hopper dredge
25 left the service in 1978 that you were in the 25 vessels were involved?
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 14 Page 16
1 A. The partnership had three vessels. 1 thing.
2 Q. Were they similar to the Wheeler? 2 Q. I wasn't counting those.
3 A. Yes. Smaller, but similar. 3 A. All right. Then, the cutterhead
4 Q. And what were the name of those 4 dredges, which are pipeline dredges which you see
5 three vessels? 5 in the Mississippi River pumping material out
6 A. The Atchafalaya, the Mermentau, and 6 into the river, and then hopper dredges, which do
7 the Ouachita. 7 primarily bar channels and take the material from
8 Q. Yesterday, during the deposition of 8 the outside bar to offshore disposal areas.
9 Nancy Powell, we heard a lot about the 9 Q. Okay.
10 Atchafalaya project, having to do with the 10 A. So that -- so that -- and the
11 restoration and so on. Was the Atchafalaya 11 vessels in Gulf Coast Trailing Company were all
12 hopper dredge involved in those operations at 12 hopper dredges, and the Atchafalaya and the
13 all? 13 Mermentau, they may have worked on the Gulf
14 A. No, it was not. 14 Outlet, but they were really too small to be
15 Q. Okay. 15 effective. So, my -- without factual
16 A. Those vessels were named after 16 recollection, I would say that neither of them
17 Louisiana rivers. Had nothing to do with any 17 ever worked on the Gulf Outlet. The Ouachita was
18 projects. 18 larger, more similar to the Wheeler, but still
19 Q. Were -- what operations on the Gulf 19 smaller, and it probably did do some bar channel
20 coast were any of the dredging -- hopper 20 dredging on the Gulf Outlet at some time.
21 dredges -- scratch that. Let me back up. 21 Q. Okay. Now, T.L. James has more than
22 Were there any more vessels, dredge 22 just these three hopper dredges as far as
23 vessels, other than the three you've mentioned in 23 dredging equipment goes.
24 the company Gulf Coast Trailing Company? 24 A. Yes, it did.
25 A. There were just survey vessels and 25 Q. And you've described the other two
Page 15 Page 17
1 management vessels. No other dredging vessels. 1 methods of dredging.
2 Q. All right. What projects on the 2 A. Yes.
3 Gulf coast was Gulf Coast Trailing Company 3 Q. Did any of the T.L. James equipment
4 involved in in the time frame when you were -- I 4 work on the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet?
5 guess it would be the whole time, '79 through 5 A. Yes, it did.
6 '99, because you were -- yeah, that's right. 6 Q. Okay. Regularly through the time
7 During that whole time frame. 7 frame of '79 through '99?
8 A. Yes. Do you want a laundry list? 8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Well, no. I'll tell you what. 9 Q. Okay. As I recall, there was a
10 Let's just stick with MRGO for now and dredging 10 budget yearly for dredging in the Mississippi
11 having to do with the Mississippi River Gulf 11 River Gulf Outlet of somewhere around 12 to $14
12 Outlet all the way to the Inner Harbor Canal 12 million. Can you give me an idea, based on your
13 and -- 13 recollection, of what percentage of that dredging
14 A. Okay. Do you understand -- I hate 14 budget T.L. James was involved with?
15 to ask you a question. 15 A. I have no idea.
16 Q. Probably not. 16 Q. Who would know that?
17 A. Do you understand -- 17 A. Corps of Engineers.
18 Q. Probably not. 18 Q. All right. What record department
19 A. Do you understand dredging? 19 would I go to to make that determination?
20 Q. I know there's two kinds of dredging 20 A. I don't know.
21 and I've got some basics as far as hopper 21 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to your
22 dredging goes. 22 explanation about the dredging operations. Do
23 A. Okay. There are actually three 23 you know whether or not the clamshell dredging
24 kinds of dredges. There are bucket dredges, 24 operation keeps material that its removed from
25 which are clamshells, backhoes, that sort of 25 where it's being removed from, let's just say a
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 18 Page 20
1 channel, in a more -- what word -- what word 1 in -- I'm sorry. Maybe my notes aren't too good
2 should I use? Congealed, clumped together, 2 here. I understand your tenure at Nebraska
3 clay-like, in other words, bigger hunks -- you 3 started in 1975; is that right?
4 know, what's the dredging term? 4 A. No. I graduated from Nebraska in
5 A. Than what? 5 1964.
6 Q. Than, for example, a hydraulic 6 Q. '64.
7 dredge, cutterhead? 7 A. And I graduated from Arizona State
8 A. Certainly. The answer is yes. 8 in 1973.
9 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that 9 Q. '73.
10 the hydraulic, cutterhead dredging operations 10 A. Yeah. I went to Officers' Candidate
11 actually create a slurry which goes through a 11 School in 1959. It was Artillery Officers'
12 pipe and it's deposited -- 12 Candidate School, but I was commissioned in the
13 A. That also is correct. 13 Corps of Engineers in 1959.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you've already told us 14 Q. Okay.
15 that the -- that the hopper barge operation 15 A. So, I was in the Corps of Engineers
16 deposits material that's removed from the channel 16 from 1959 to 1978.
17 in deep water. 17 Q. When did you come to the New Orleans
18 A. Usually. 18 office of the Corps of Engineers?
19 Q. Okay. I take it that the hopper 19 A. 1975. August of 1975.
20 dredge is not as capable of depositing material, 20 Q. Now, what was your first job at the
21 for example, behind a rock shoring structure as 21 Corps of Engineers in --
22 the cutterhead dredge; is that fair? 22 A. I was the deputy district engineer
23 A. That's not quite true. 23 for the entire time that I was here.
24 Q. Okay. 24 Q. In your job as deputy district
25 A. It can do that. Virtually every 25 engineer, did you communicate with members of
Page 19 Page 21
1 hopper dredge in the industry in the United 1 Congress at all?
2 States has what's called pump-out capability so 2 A. Only when they contacted us and
3 that they can -- a hopper dredge has the 3 wanted information.
4 hopper -- it's a ship with a big hopper in the 4 Q. Tell me about the information
5 middle of it, and when it dredges, it fills that 5 exchange between Congress and the Corps of
6 hopper. And the normal practice or the most 6 Engineers for projects like the Lake
7 efficient practice is to go out to sea or to go 7 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection
8 to a disposal area somewhere and open the doors 8 Project, or any particular project.
9 on the bottom and dump that material through the 9 A. I can't really -- I don't think I
10 bottom. They can, however, pump out of the 10 can give you an answer on that question. I'm
11 hopper, through a pipeline and place material 11 really not conversant with the process anymore,
12 like a cutterhead -- 12 and I don't remember what it was -- frankly, I
13 Q. Okay. 13 remember that we did it, but I don't remember the
14 A. -- if they have to, but it's very 14 process at the time.
15 expensive. 15 Q. Okay. Were you involved in that
16 Q. Okay. So, then, it's fair to say 16 process or were you just aware of the process?
17 that the choice of a disposal method of putting 17 A. I was aware of it. My job here was
18 dredged materials from a hopper dredge behind a 18 as a chief of staff to operate the district. We
19 foreshoring dike by the pumping method that 19 had 1,600 employees, so, I really did not
20 you've described, which, I imagine, includes 20 interface -- my recollection is I didn't
21 hooking up the pipes and all that kind of stuff, 21 interface with Congress directly much at all.
22 is much more expensive than just dumping it in a 22 Q. Okay. So, if somebody came down
23 disposal area or offshore? 23 here for a tour or something, you'd get involved,
24 A. That's correct. 24 but as far as providing information --
25 Q. Okay. Now, you joined the Corps 25 A. Yeah, that --
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 22 Page 24
1 Q. -- to the Congress, that wasn't your 1 investigation to determine whether or not the --
2 job? 2 and you call it MRGO?
3 A. No, sir. 3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Okay. Post-Camille and Betsy, there 4 Q. Whether the MRGO had a significant
5 was an issue involving the funnel effect. Do you 5 effect on surge?
6 know what I mean by that? 6 A. I don't remember. I don't remember
7 A. Yes. 7 that. I'm sure there was, but I don't remember
8 Q. Okay. Good. We may be able to cut 8 it.
9 through a whole lot of stuff if we can just not 9 Q. Okay. So, you wouldn't -- if you
10 drag out paper that's a block that way -- 10 don't remember whether there was any study done
11 A. Yeah. 11 or not, you don't remember whether or not -- or
12 Q. -- in another conference room. In 12 you don't remember what the outcome was?
13 connection with the funnel effect, there were 13 A. No, sir.
14 some recommendations made that included -- I kind 14 Q. Okay. My colleague has just given
15 of -- I'll just go with -- there's three areas, 15 me a sketch --
16 but I'll do them one at a time. One was floating 16 MS. SOJA:
17 gates. Do you remember that? 17 Thank you.
18 A. No. 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 Q. Okay. Floating gates around the 19 You're welcome.
20 Paris Road Bridge. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 A. Yeah. No, I don't remember that. 21 Q. -- which we have retrieved from the
22 Q. Don't remember it? 22 Corps of Engineers documents provided to us, and
23 A. No, sir. 23 this is AFW-467-000001786. I've marked it as
24 Q. Do you remember the discussions 24 Exhibit 1.
25 about building a levee across the MRGO -- I say a 25 (Whereupon, LH Exhibit
Page 23 Page 25
1 levee -- a structure to block it off? 1 Number 1 was marked for
2 A. No, I don't remember that either. 2 identification.)
3 Q. Okay. How about discussions about 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 not putting in a lock at the Seabrook -- at the 4 Q. That's some rough sketch of this
5 Seabrook Bridge or the Seabrook area because of 5 proposed floating gate structure. Have you ever
6 the effect of trapping water in the Inner Harbor 6 seen it before?
7 Canal, do you remember that? 7 A. I may have, but I don't remember it.
8 A. No, I don't remember that either. 8 Q. Okay. Now, LH Number 2 is dated
9 Q. Don't remember any of those things? 9 1975, New Lock and Connecting Channels Site
10 A. No, I really don't. No, sir. 10 Selection Report, and it includes Plate Number 4,
11 Q. Okay. What do you remember about 11 bearing the date of 1973 -- you need to show that
12 the funnel effect? 12 to your counsel as well -- which is the
13 A. I just remember that -- that 13 construction of the structure to close the MRGO
14 people -- people alleged that there was such a 14 across the northern part of it. Do you see that?
15 thing. 15 (Whereupon, LH Exhibit
16 Q. Okay. Okay. And do you remember 16 Number 2 was marked for
17 any recommended solutions, the cause of that 17 identification.)
18 allegation or any investigations done? 18 A. I'm looking at it.
19 A. The only discussions that I can 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 remember were the St. Bernard Parish folks 20 Q. Okay.
21 wanting to close the MRGO one way or another. 21 A. It predated me, March of '75. It's
22 How -- how -- I don't remember any details on 22 before I got here. If whether or not I had ever
23 how. 23 seen this drawing before, I don't -- I don't
24 Q. Okay. Was there -- while you were 24 recall.
25 deputy district engineer, was there any 25 Q. I don't -- I don't think that -- I
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 26 Page 28
1 don't think it was -- I don't think any of these 1 frame, if you could.
2 documents were unavailable after a certain point 2 A. He was here long before I got here
3 in time. 3 and he was here long after I left.
4 A. No, I understand that. 4 Q. Okay. And do you know where he is
5 Q. Okay. And, so, your answer is is 5 today?
6 that you are -- 6 A. He's dead.
7 A. My answer is I don't remember it. 7 Q. That was my thought. Okay. So,
8 Q. Okay. So, with regard to Exhibit 3 8 other than this gentleman who's passed away --
9 (sic), just so the record is clear, you don't 9 A. I don't -- of the people that ran
10 remember ever having seen the solution which I've 10 Engineering Division in those days, I don't know
11 called the -- it's called barrier plan -- across 11 who is still alive and in the community.
12 the MRGO, which includes some navigational locks, 12 Q. All right. If you really wanted to
13 it doesn't close the MRGO, it has navigational 13 know, who would you ask?
14 locks along the Chalmette waterway and more 14 A. I would guess that the chief --
15 navigational locks along the Intracoastal Canal 15 current chief of the Engineering Division should
16 you don't remember seeing that? 16 have records that'll show who was here when and
17 MR. LIDDLE: 17 what their responsibilities were.
18 Objection; vague and 18 Q. Okay. Do you know who that happens
19 ambiguous. 19 to be?
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 A. Walter Baumy is chief of
21 Q. Answer it anyway. 21 Engineering. I don't know the gentleman, but I
22 A. I don't remember it. 22 know the name.
23 Q. Okay. Again, just so the record's 23 Q. All right. If I understand your
24 clear, you don't remember ever having seen a 24 testimony correctly, you have no knowledge of
25 drawing like the one attached to Exhibit 2? 25 whether or not the MRGO or the MRGO, however you
Page 27 Page 29
1 A. That's correct. 1 want to call it, creates surge as a result of its
2 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the 2 geometry or not, correct?
3 Seabrook Bridge/structure, whatever you want to 3 A. That is correct.
4 call the Seabrook. You know where the bridge 4 Q. Okay. So that, as you put it, the
5 goes -- 5 so-called funnel effect, you don't know whether
6 A. Yes, sir. Right. 6 it's a legitimate concern or not, correct?
7 Q. Out by the Lakefront Airport. 7 A. I have an opinion which, I think, is
8 A. Yes. 8 the same as the Corps' opinion, which is that it
9 Q. Okay. Do you know that there were 9 is not.
10 discussions about a structure at that location? 10 Q. Okay. Do you have a basis for that
11 A. No, I do not know that. 11 opinion?
12 Q. You don't remember that? 12 A. No.
13 A. I don't remember it. 13 Q. Let me try a -- let me try to give
14 Q. All right. Who would know these 14 you a visual, if I can. I'm sure you're familiar
15 things? Somebody in the Engineering Department? 15 with the cafeteria upstairs -- or downstairs, on
16 A. Yes. 16 the second floor, correct?
17 Q. Okay. Back in -- I'm going to test 17 A. Yes.
18 your memory, and I know you got a good one -- 18 Q. Okay. If you're standing at the
19 what person in the Engineering Department should 19 window of the cafeteria and looking out across
20 I be directing these questions to about -- 20 the river, what's your best estimate of the
21 A. Well, the chief of Engineering was 21 position of the pilings where the barges are tied
22 Fred Chatry. 22 from the windows? Meaning, there's several
23 Q. Fred. Can you spell the last name? 23 pilings along there.
24 A. C-H-A-T-R-Y. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And give me his approximate time 25 Q. How far do you think that distance
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 30 Page 32
1 is? 1 A. I don't know.
2 A. Two hundred fifty feet. 2 Q. You don't know whether it was done
3 Q. All right. How far do you think the 3 in the MRGO anywhere?
4 bank on the other side of the river is? 4 A. No, I don't.
5 A. Probably in the neighborhood of 5 Q. Okay. And, so, you don't know about
6 3,500 feet. 6 wave wash, for example, in the MRGO from
7 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whether or 7 deep-draft vessels and its effect on the bank
8 not there were any concerns during your tenure as 8 erosion?
9 deputy director or deputy district engineer -- 9 A. I know what wave wash is, obviously,
10 what's the title? 10 and I know that it has effects on banks. What
11 A. That was correct. 11 the effect has been on the MRGO is only what I've
12 Q. Okay -- about the erosion along the 12 read in the newspapers. I don't -- I don't know
13 banks of the MRGO? 13 any more than that.
14 MR. LIDDLE: 14 Q. Okay. Why is it that you wouldn't
15 Objection; vague and 15 have read anything at the Corps for --
16 ambiguous. 16 A. I probably did, but it was over 30
17 A. Okay. 17 years ago, and I don't remember.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 Q. You don't?
19 Q. Go ahead and answer. 19 A. (Shakes head negatively.)
20 THE WITNESS: 20 Q. What's your date of birth?
21 Answer? 21 A. 11/6/38.
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 Q. Okay. Do you suffer from any sort
23 Yes. 23 of condition that affects your memory?
24 A. There's always concern about erosion 24 A. No.
25 on every channel, and I'm not certain that -- 25 Q. All right. And it's your testimony
Page 31 Page 33
1 that the MRGO's was any different than any other 1 that you have absolutely no recollection of
2 channel. 2 issues involving the excessive erosion along the
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 MRGO.
4 Q. Do you remember a series of reports, 4 A. I've already --
5 one of which was a reconnaissance report done in 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 1988, concerning bank erosion on the MRGO? 6 Objection.
7 A. No. No recollection, no knowledge. 7 A. I've already told you that all that
8 Q. Okay. And the same thing goes for 8 I've seen is what I've read in the newspapers. I
9 the 1994 reconnaissance report? 9 don't recall any particular incidences or reports
10 A. Not familiar with it. 10 or documents from the 1975 to '78 time frame.
11 Q. Okay. In your position as deputy 11 Subsequent to that, I wasn't involved and read
12 director, do you think it's important for the 12 the newspaper just like every other citizen does.
13 Corps to maintain a waterway as designed? 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
14 MR. LIDDLE: 14 Q. Okay. When the dredging was going
15 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 15 on along the MRGO by T.L. James post-1979, did
16 A. I think that's the Corps' intent. 16 you observe any of those operations?
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 A. Some of them.
18 Q. Okay. When we look out -- outside 18 Q. Now, I know you don't know the exact
19 here at the foreshoring along the rocks -- 19 ones that you observed or the exact dates when
20 foreshoring rocks along the levee, that's a 20 you observed them, but can you tell me, did you
21 common practice, isn't it? 21 observe any dragline or bucket dredging?
22 A. On some channels. I don't know that 22 A. I don't recall that I did.
23 it's universal. I've seen it done many times. 23 Q. Okay. Do you recall observing some
24 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was done in 24 hydraulic dredging, cutterhead dredging?
25 the MRGO? 25 A. Yes.
9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 34 Page 36
1 Q. All right. And did you observe any 1 Q. Okay. And while he's doing that,
2 hopper dredging? 2 what records are being kept of the swings?
3 A. Yes. 3 A. I'm not certain. There are records
4 Q. Okay. To get an idea, from 1979, 4 kept of the swings on both depth and width of the
5 which is the year that you became -- what was 5 cut. I'm not certain what else you're looking
6 your position with Gulf Coast Trailing Company? 6 for.
7 A. I was the general manager. 7 Q. Okay. How are they kept?
8 Q. And you were a vice president of 8 A. At that time, they were kept
9 T.L. James at the same time? 9 manually. We used survey boats to do it. Now --
10 A. That's correct. 10 now, times have changed and they have sensors and
11 Q. Now -- and then in 1992, you became 11 much better equipment than we had, but we had to
12 vice president in charge of their marine 12 use -- we actually took surveys.
13 operations? 13 Q. Were those survey vessels operated
14 A. President of the Marine Group. 14 by T.L. James as well?
15 Q. President of the Marine Group. 15 A. Yes, they were. That was part of
16 Did the Marine Group include the 16 our -- part of the requirements of the Corps
17 dredging operations? 17 contracts.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. And payment was made by the amount
19 Q. What percentage of the business, in 19 of material removed?
20 general, of the Marine Group are dredging 20 A. That's correct. That was on some --
21 operations? 21 there's two kinds of contracts, as I'm certain
22 A. 95 percent or greater. 22 you're aware. There are unit price contracts
23 Q. What percentage of the business of 23 where you're paid by the quantity of material
24 the dredging group, which is 95 percent of the 24 removed, and there are also rental contracts,
25 business of the Marine Group, is contracted to 25 where you're paid based on the amount of time
Page 35 Page 37
1 the Corps of Engineers? 1 that your dredge is operating on the project.
2 A. Probably 90 percent would be my 2 Corps of Engineers executes both kinds of
3 guess. That is a guess, but it's close. 3 contracts.
4 Q. Now, do you remember a practice 4 Q. The primary execution for
5 called box cutting? 5 maintenance dredging in the MRGO was the unit
6 A. Yes. 6 price, correct?
7 Q. Was box cutting used in the MRGO? 7 A. I wouldn't necessarily say that. I
8 A. I don't know. Don't remember. 8 think there were both. I think you'd have to do
9 Q. I take it you've been on a hydraulic 9 some research to determine which was
10 dredge while it's in operation. 10 preponderant, but probably unit price was the
11 A. Yes, I have. 11 majority of the cases.
12 Q. Many times? 12 Q. Okay. Now, do you know that it is
13 A. Yes. 13 more efficient for the operator of a hydraulic
14 Q. And I want you to describe for the 14 cutterhead dredge to box cut as opposed to a
15 record, if you would, please, what the leverman 15 profile for the sides?
16 does in the process of operating a cutterhead 16 A. Probably so. And on many Corps
17 hydraulic dredge. 17 contracts, they prescribe the cut at the side of
18 A. He swings the cutterhead back and 18 the channel. In fact, at all Corps contracts,
19 forth to cut the material, which is then pumped 19 they prescribe how you can cut. So, any dredging
20 out of the dredge. Pumped by the dredge to -- 20 that was done would have been done in accordance
21 through the pipeline. 21 with the plans and specs and the contract.
22 Q. All right. He swings it back and 22 Q. The plans and specs for the
23 forth and he manipulates it up and down, too, 23 maintenance of the MRGO included a one-on-two
24 doesn't he? 24 side. You're familiar with that terminology?
25 A. That's correct. 25 A. I don't remember that, but I know
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
Page 38 Page 40
1 what side slope is, certainly. 1 banks and they used a stake and they measured
2 Q. All right. And to accomplish the 2 from point to point. So, what you're saying is
3 one-on-two side slope, there was no prohibition 3 probably inaccurate and it probably predates
4 against box dredging, box cut dredging, but there 4 Michelle Daigle.
5 wasn't any specificity as to how it was to be 5 Q. Is probably inaccurate?
6 accomplished. Under those circumstances, it was 6 A. Yes. I do believe they did measure
7 apparently left up to -- according to the 7 the slopes.
8 witness, I believe it was Michelle Daigle -- to 8 Q. Okay. Well, if there's a guy with a
9 the leverman to determine how far he needed to go 9 probe and you got a 40-foot-deep channel, you're
10 past the 500-foot-width channel to accomplish the 10 going to have to have a pretty big guy, huh?
11 cave-in of the materials to reach the one-on-two 11 A. They use lead lines.
12 slope -- side slope measurement. 12 Q. Okay. So -- all right. Now, do you
13 MR. LIDDLE: 13 know what width the MRGO is supposed to be by
14 Objection; vague, ambiguous, 14 design?
15 compound. 15 A. No, I don't. I don't recall that.
16 MR. LAMBERT: 16 Q. Okay. Now, I'm asking you now
17 I'm not even finished yet, 17 questions about your memory as it is confined to
18 so, you can do that in just a 18 your work with the Corps of Engineers, which
19 second. 19 ended in 1978. I'm now asking you about your
20 MR. LIDDLE: 20 memory as it goes all the way up through 1999.
21 Apologize. 21 Okay?
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. My question is: Do you know if 23 Q. All right. I'm asking you about
24 that's inaccurate? In other words, do you have 24 your knowledge in connection with the dredging
25 information to say that's not the case? 25 done that you were aware of when you were the
Page 39 Page 41
1 MR. LAMBERT: 1 president of T.L. James Marine Division. Do you
2 Go ahead. 2 understand that?
3 MR. LIDDLE: 3 A. Yes.
4 Objection; vague, ambiguous, 4 Q. Okay. So, I'm not asking you to
5 compound. 5 wade way back in your memory. I'm asking you to
6 A. I don't have information to know 6 tell me what you know about the dredging
7 that that's not accurate. However, I do know 7 operations in the MRGO up until the last time you
8 that on our contracts that we were never -- never 8 had anything to do with it. Let's start off with
9 had a problem with overdigging, which the Corps 9 that date, if we can. When was the last time
10 would generally did -- if you dug too much, 10 that you recall being involved -- and I'm going
11 they'd notify that you were digging outside the 11 to be real broad at first and then we're going to
12 prism. So, we never had that problem. So, I 12 probe the details -- with the contracts having to
13 wouldn't guess that we ever exceeded the limits 13 do with dredging by T.L. James in the MRGO or --
14 of any contract. 14 when I say T.L. James, I mean T.L. James, Gulf
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 Coast Trailing Company or any other entity that
16 Q. I was told, and correct me if I'm 16 falls under the ambit of T.L. James or its
17 wrong, that the survey work done, particularly, 17 subsidiaries.
18 the survey boat work done in the early days, 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 included the survey of the channel, but not 19 You want to object?
20 necessarily bank to bank. Do you know? 20 MR. LIDDLE:
21 A. No, I don't know. I don't know that 21 No.
22 that's true. In fact, I would guess that there 22 MR. LAMBERT:
23 are limits -- and, in fact, if you want to get to 23 I'm amazed.
24 the real early days, it was -- it was done by 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 probing. It was done by people standing on the 25 Q. Go ahead.
11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 42 Page 44
1 A. Starting in 1999 and moving 1 probably long before that. Probably early to
2 backwards, I supervised three division managers 2 mid-'90s.
3 who would have signed the contracts and managed 3 Q. Do you remember the Corps of
4 the dredging projects that they had on, you 4 Engineers having any discussions with you as the
5 know -- that were with respect to their divisions 5 president of the T.L. James Marine Division about
6 on the MRGO or anywhere else. 6 the loss of wetlands as a result of bank -- let
7 Q. What were their names? 7 me finish my question -- as a result of bank
8 A. Gulf Coast Trailing Company was 8 erosion caused by maintenance dredging of the
9 Henry Shore, Jr. 9 MRGO?
10 Q. Uh-huh. 10 A. Never. I can recall that we never
11 A. The Cutterhead Division was G.W. 11 had a conversation about that.
12 James, III. And the Bucket Division was a whole 12 Q. Did anyone in T.L. James address the
13 list of people. The one I can remember is 13 issue to you as the president of the company? In
14 Michael Mayeaux. And I haven't been in touch 14 other words, that so-and-so at the Corps of
15 with any of those people since 1999, so, I can't 15 Engineers had raised the issue of maintenance
16 tell you how to reach them. 16 dredging causing a widening of the MRGO and a
17 Q. Henry Shore, Jr. was the -- 17 loss of wetlands in the maintenance dredging
18 A. Gulf Coast Trailing Company. 18 operations?
19 Q. Okay. So, that would have been the 19 A. To my knowledge, that matter was
20 vessels -- the hopper dredges as well as the 20 never addressed to any of my subordinate managers
21 survey vessels and so on? 21 as well as not to me.
22 A. Yes. Each division had its own 22 Q. Okay. The Corps of Engineers, then,
23 separate survey vessels. 23 as best you know, after you left and while you
24 Q. Okay. And did they charge on 24 were in the management of T.L. James and/or Gulf
25 separate contracts? 25 Coast Trailing from 1978 through your departure
Page 43 Page 45
1 A. They -- usually, they would operate 1 in 1999, never addressed the issue of excessive
2 on separate contracts. Occasionally, you'd have 2 bank erosion along the MRGO.
3 two kinds of a dredge on a contract, but I would 3 A. Never.
4 say that was -- I can't recall that that 4 Q. Okay.
5 happened. 5 MR. LIDDLE:
6 Q. We miscommunicated. I was asking 6 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
7 about the survey vessels. 7 A. Do you understand how contractors
8 A. Yes, sir. What about them? 8 deal with the Corps of Engineers?
9 Q. Do they operate on a separate 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 contract from the dredging vessels? 10 Q. Why don't you tell me.
11 A. No. No. No. They were part of the 11 A. Contractors bid on advertised work
12 team that did a job. 12 and then they accomplish the work in accordance
13 Q. That's what I understood. Okay. As 13 with the plans and specs. And -- and peripheral
14 you recall, most of the time, it would be one 14 matters that you keep addressing, the erosion on
15 type of dredge for one type of job? 15 MRGO, are not of consequence to the contractor so
16 A. That's correct. 16 long as he's accomplishing his contract in
17 Q. Okay. Now, is it fair to say that 17 accordance with the plans and specifications.
18 the Cutterhead Division would have been the one 18 So, that would have been a matter that might have
19 most likely to be doing work in the MRGO? 19 been addressed internally at the Corps, but
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 certainly would not have been addressed to the
21 Q. Okay. Now, when was the last time 21 contractor.
22 that you recall having anything to do with 22 Q. Do you remember a project involving
23 dredging operations in the MRGO that would be 23 the concept of BUMP, B-U-M-P?
24 obviously before '99? Would it be the year '99? 24 A. No. I don't. I've never heard of
25 A. I would have said it was -- it was 25 it.
12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 46 Page 48
1 Q. Really? 1 materials ever employed?
2 A. I really haven't. 2 A. It's my assessment that on every
3 Q. You want me to tell you what it is? 3 dredging contract, the Corps of Engineers
4 A. Yes. 4 specifies where the material is to be disposed
5 Q. Okay. It's the Beneficial Use of 5 and how containment levees are supposed to be
6 Dredged Materials Projects, B-U-M-P. 6 built. And, so, the answer to your question is
7 A. Never heard it called that. I've 7 yes. I would say on virtually every single
8 heard it called Beneficial Use, but that's a 8 contract that they attempt to beneficially use
9 whole new acronym to me, and I thought I'd heard 9 the dredged spoil. Again, this has nothing to do
10 them all. 10 with the contractor, but it's my observation that
11 Q. Okay. Well, what have you heard 11 the way the Corps moves disposal areas around and
12 about the beneficial use of dredged materials in 12 actually incurs greater costs in some cases by
13 terms of the MRGO? In other words, you've got a 13 using a disposal area that's further from the
14 bunch of dredged materials, millions a year, 14 dredging area, that, yes, they do that on a
15 coming out of the MRGO. What did you hear, as 15 regular basis.
16 the president of T.L. James, about the beneficial 16 Q. Okay. It was done along the jetties
17 use of those materials? 17 that go out of Lake Borgne, wasn't it?
18 A. Well, beneficial use of materials 18 A. I think so. You know, I don't know.
19 has been discussed since long before I was in the 19 I guess. If you say so, it was, because they do
20 Corps of Engineers, continues to be discussed 20 it regularly.
21 today. It more addresses material that's dredged 21 Q. And it was done along the south side
22 on the Mississippi River than the MRGO, and -- 22 of the MRGO just east -- I say south side. It's
23 and the crux of the matter is whether or not 23 really the southwest side -- behind the stone
24 material that's dredged on the Mississippi River 24 foreshoring that was done along there, wasn't it?
25 can be pumped over the levees and to renourish 25 A. Yes, it was.
Page 47 Page 49
1 wetlands and whether or not the government or the 1 Q. And there was also a structure built
2 state wants to pay the extra cost of pumping -- 2 to control erosion between Lake Borgne and the
3 using a hopper-dredge dredged materials and 3 MRGO, wasn't there?
4 pumping it over the levees. So, yes, it's been 4 A. Yes.
5 talked about forever. It's talked about monthly 5 Q. And those projects also, as you may
6 at meetings here in the Corps. 6 know, were intended to not only control erosion,
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 7 but also to reduce the necessity for -- reduce,
8 Excuse me. We need to 8 not eliminate, the necessity for as much
9 change tapes. End of tape 1. 9 maintenance dredging, correct, or do you know?
10 We're going off the record. 10 A. I don't know.
11 (Whereupon, a discussion was 11 Q. Okay.
12 held off the record.) 12 A. I'm assuming that's why it was done,
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 13 but I don't know that to be true.
14 This is the beginning of 14 Q. Okay. All right. The surveys that
15 Tape 2. We're back on the record. 15 were done in connection with maintenance dredging
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 were then presented to the Corps of Engineers for
17 Q. To your knowledge, was the concept 17 payment?
18 of the beneficial use of dredged materials ever 18 A. Yes, sir. Actually, computations
19 employed along the MRGO? I'm not limiting your 19 were done based on those surveys, and that was
20 knowledge to the three years that you were deputy 20 presented with -- to the Corps.
21 director of the Corps. I'm asking you: 21 Q. What about the surveys themselves?
22 Including the three years that you were deputy 22 A. And cross-sections were presented to
23 director of the Corps and the 20 years -- 21 23 the Corps.
24 years that you were an officer of T.L. James, to 24 Q. And those cross-sections, of course,
25 your knowledge, was the beneficial use of dredged 25 would exist in whatever form the technology of
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 50 Page 52
1 the day -- 1 Let me take a break for a
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 second. Let's take a break.
3 Q. -- dictates? 3 THE WITNESS:
4 A. That's correct. 4 Sure.
5 Q. Okay. And your belief is that 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
6 they're bank to bank. 6 Off the record.
7 A. Yes. 7 (Whereupon, a discussion was
8 Q. All right. Does T.L. James also 8 held off the record.)
9 contract to do foreshoring work? 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
10 A. To my knowledge, it did not. It 10 We're now back on the
11 used subcontractors for that kind of work. 11 record.
12 Q. Okay. So the record's clear, T.L. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 James didn't have a division that actually did 13 Q. All right. Let's skip ahead a
14 foreshoring construction. 14 little bit to 1999. In 1999, you left T.L. James
15 A. That's correct. 15 and started your own consulting company, correct?
16 Q. Okay. After you left the Corps as 16 A. That's correct.
17 deputy district engineer in 1978, who did you 17 Q. What consulting services do you
18 deal with at the Corps? 18 provide?
19 MR. LIDDLE: 19 A. I provide -- I primarily work with
20 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 20 companies that have either organizational
21 A. Do you mean by name? 21 difficulties or production difficulties. I
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 analyze -- generally, I describe them as sick
23 Q. Uh-huh. 23 companies, and I try to provide them some
24 A. All we did at that point was respond 24 medicine. I try to fix them. And that's the
25 to government solicitations, and we bid contracts 25 preponderance of my service.
Page 51 Page 53
1 in writing. At that point, when we were 1 Q. Okay. Do you do any work with the
2 successful bidders on a contract, we -- our field 2 Corps of Engineers?
3 people would go to the project and work with 3 A. I represent some companies that want
4 project engineers, Corps project engineers, 4 to do business with the Corps of Engineers.
5 on-site. And so long as you did -- prosecuted 5 Q. Okay. And can you give me a short
6 your jobs properly, you really had no interface 6 list of those companies that you're talking about
7 with the hierarchy here at the Corps other than 7 relevant to the Corps of Engineers?
8 through the Contracting Division, and I'm sure 8 A. Certainly. Giken, G-I-K-E-N.
9 that there were -- in those years, there must 9 That's a Japanese pile-driving company.
10 have been four or five chiefs of Contracting 10 Q. Uh-huh.
11 Division. 11 A. High Roads Solutions. That's --
12 Q. All right. I don't know if you 12 Q. High --
13 answered my question or not. 13 A. High, H-I-G-H, High Roads Solutions.
14 A. I don't know if I have an answer for 14 Q. What do they do?
15 it is the problem. I think I understand your 15 A. That's a Baton Rouge, small-business
16 question. 16 construction company.
17 Q. All right. 17 Q. All right.
18 A. Is there -- is there something that 18 A. Design Engineering, Incorporated;
19 you're looking for specific? 19 that's a Metairie engineering company.
20 Q. Yeah. 20 Washington Group International; that's a large
21 A. Well, make it clearer and I'll try. 21 construction concern out of Boise, Idaho.
22 Q. Okay. Good. When you left the 22 Interbeton, I-N-T-E-R-B-E-T-O-N, Rotterdam,
23 Corps of Engineers and went to work for T.L. 23 Netherlands; that's a large construction dredging
24 James -- first of all -- let me back up a second. 24 company.
25 MR. LAMBERT: 25 Q. All right.
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 54 Page 56
1 A. Van Oord Dredging, Rotterdam -- 1 generally, they have been mutually exclusive.
2 Dredging and Marine Construction Company. 2 Q. Okay. And then I asked you for a
3 Q. All right. 3 list of the companies that did work with the
4 A. Let me see if I've missed anybody. 4 Corps of Engineers or that you helped do work
5 Weeks Marine. 5 with the Corps of Engineers.
6 Q. W-E-A-K-S? 6 A. Oh, okay.
7 A. No. W-E-E-K-S, Weeks Marine. 7 Q. And you started off with --
8 Q. All right. What do they do? 8 A. Well, some of those don't,
9 A. Dredging company. I don't -- my 9 obviously.
10 service to Weeks has been completed and I still 10 Q. Let's check off the ones that do.
11 have a relationship with them, but I'm not active 11 A. Let's do it again. You read the
12 with them at the moment. 12 company, and I'll tell you if they do any work
13 I think that pretty much covers 13 with the Corps.
14 companies that I'm active with. 14 Q. Giken Pile-Driving.
15 Q. Okay. When did -- 15 A. That's Giken, G-I-K-E-N.
16 A. I'm sorry. Conrad Industries, out 16 Q. Giken. Okay.
17 of Morgan City. Actually, that's my largest 17 A. Yes, they have two current contracts
18 customer. I should have said them first. 18 with the Corps of Engineers as subcontractors to
19 Q. What do they do? 19 a major contractor.
20 A. They operate shipyards. They're my 20 Q. And the major is?
21 largest, my biggest success story, so, I'd be 21 A. I have no clue.
22 happy to talk about that all day long if you 22 Q. Okay. High Roads Solutions, do they
23 want, and it has nothing to do with the MRGO. 23 do --
24 Q. Does it have to do with the Corps of 24 A. He does do work for the federal
25 Engineers? 25 government in general, and the Corps of
Page 55 Page 57
1 A. No. 1 Engineers, very small contracts, 25,000, $50,000
2 Q. So, Conrad Industry has nothing to 2 contracts. I don't think he has a current
3 do with the Corps of Engineers? 3 contract with the Corps of Engineers.
4 A. No. They -- they -- I think they 4 Q. But you have helped him in
5 occasionally build ships for the Corps when 5 connection with --
6 they're successful bidders, but they don't deal 6 A. I'm trying to help him, and I deal
7 with the Corps. The preponderance of their 7 with a small business advisor in New Orleans
8 business is private. 8 District.
9 Q. Okay. What ships do you know 9 Q. Okay. We're going to get into that
10 they've built for the Corps? 10 in a minute.
11 A. I have no clue. I just know they 11 Design Engineering, Inc.?
12 bid on government work. That's a small portion 12 A. He also is providing engineering
13 of their business. 13 services under some of the design contracts for
14 Q. Okay. Now, you said two things. 14 the Corps of Engineers.
15 You said you help companies with their 15 Q. Okay. Washington Group
16 organizational structures, help them -- help make 16 International.
17 sick companies well. 17 A. They were just unsuccessful in the
18 A. That's correct. 18 bid for the Industrial Canal surge barrier.
19 Q. Okay. And you said, also, that you 19 Q. Okay. But the question is not their
20 help companies that want to work for the Corps of 20 most recent bid, but have you worked with them in
21 Engineers? 21 connection with contracts for the Corps of
22 A. That's correct. 22 Engineers?
23 Q. Okay. Do those things go together? 23 A. I was helping them to put together a
24 A. They -- no, they're mutually 24 proposal to the Corps of Engineers --
25 exclusive. They could go together, but, 25 Q. Okay.
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 58 Page 60
1 A. -- and they were unsuccessful. 1 A. Okay. Right there.
2 Q. They were successful in another 2 Q. Okay.
3 contract having to do with construction along the 3 A. Potential structure here.
4 Intracoastal or the -- 4 Q. Louder, please. Potential structure
5 A. I wasn't involved in that. 5 here on the Intracoastal Waterway?
6 Q. -- Inner Harbor Navigational Canal? 6 A. Yeah. And a structure here on the
7 A. I don't know. 7 Gulf Outlet and a structure here at Bayou
8 Q. You don't know? 8 Bienvenue.
9 A. The only one I was involved in was 9 Q. Okay.
10 the proposal for the IHNC. 10 A. Now, that may not be the successful
11 Q. And what was that proposal? 11 solution. I don't know. I'm not privy to that
12 A. That was the one that Shaw Group was 12 information.
13 just selected for to do the design/construct of a 13 Q. I understand. I understand. And
14 surge barrier across the -- connecting the 14 you've said in order to --
15 Intracoastal Waterway and Bayou Bienvenue. So, 15 A. The objective of the contract was to
16 it kind of went across the MRGO. 16 cut off the surge through Lake Borgne coming up
17 Q. Okay. 17 into the Intracoastal Waterway and then up into
18 A. Was awarded within the last month. 18 the Industrial Canal.
19 Q. Okay. Just so we've got that 19 Q. Okay. So, let's draw, if you would,
20 straight, that's at the intersection of the MRGO 20 please, an arrow, and label it "Surge."
21 and the Intracoastal Waterway? 21 A. (Complying.)
22 A. Yeah. The contract -- and I'm not 22 Q. Okay. And then if you'll draw a
23 sure what the successful design shows. It was a 23 line out from this structure down to the border
24 design/construct contract, but it runs from east 24 here so we can know what the mark is, or up here
25 of the Michoud Slip all the way to Bayou 25 in the lake. Doesn't matter.
Page 59 Page 61
1 Bienvenue Lock, if you can picture that. 1 A. What do you --
2 Q. On this exhibit, on Number 2, I'm 2 Q. I just want you to label that
3 going to lean across here for a second, and see 3 structure in general and you can call it whatever
4 if maybe -- 4 you want. I would think that something that the
5 A. No. It's too small. 5 WGI just bid on and didn't get. So, I guess it
6 Q. This is the Michoud Slip, right? 6 would be Shaw Group --
7 A. Let's see if I can see it. 7 A. Yeah. This is the Shaw Group --
8 Q. Right there. 8 Q. All right. Contract?
9 A. Okay. It would -- 9 A. IHNC surge barrier.
10 Q. That's the Michoud slip? 10 Q. Okay. All right. And you could
11 A. Yeah, it would come across this way. 11 just draw an arrow to it, please.
12 That's Bayou Bienvenue right there. It comes 12 A. (Complying.)
13 across here. 13 Q. Okay. Thank you.
14 Q. Right. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 A. So, there'd be a structure on the 15 Q. Now, let me see if I can do this so
16 Intercoastal Waterway, there'd be a structure on 16 that the record's clear. We're using Plate 4,
17 the Gulf Outlet and there may or may not be a new 17 which is part of Exhibit Number LH 2.
18 structure at Bayou Bienvenue. So, it's a surge 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 barrier to stop the flood surge coming up this 19 Can you get that, Ken?
20 way, to cut it off, to keep it from going this 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 way. 21 Q. And if you would, please, so we can
22 Q. Okay. So, I would like for to you 22 have a record complete, show the area where the
23 take this pen, if you would, please, and just 23 surge --
24 draw what we're talking about here so we've got a 24 A. Surge comes this way.
25 record of it. 25 Q. Okay.
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 62 Page 64
1 A. Intracoastal Waterway is this way. 1 you?
2 Purpose of the contract is to cut the surge -- to 2 A. I don't know that. No, I don't.
3 cut the surge off before it gets to the 3 Q. All right. Do you know whether or
4 Industrial Canal and floods the city. 4 not wetlands act as a buffer to surge?
5 Q. Okay. All right. Now, that surge 5 A. I have heard that they do. Do I
6 that you've drawn on Exhibit Number LH 2 is -- is 6 know that they do? No.
7 right in the same area that I asked you about 7 Q. Okay. And in your position with the
8 with regard to the "Funnel effect," correct? 8 Corps, I take it that you don't recall any
9 A. Yes. 9 specifics with regard to an analysis of whether
10 Q. Okay. 10 or not wetlands or the loss of wetlands has
11 MR. LIDDLE: 11 anything to do with surge?
12 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 12 A. No, sir.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 Q. Okay. Do you agree with me that
14 Q. As you understand it, the 14 during your 21 years with T.L. James involving
15 protection, whether it's -- I mean, clearly, we 15 dredging operations in the MRGO that you observed
16 don't have an engineering drawing of what the 16 a significant erosion of the original channel
17 protection is, but it's, apparently, attended -- 17 into the marsh?
18 intended to protect against the same concerns 18 A. No, I do not.
19 that you are aware of with regard to the funnel 19 MR. LIDDLE:
20 effect, the concerns, correct? 20 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
21 A. I would -- 21 A. I do not agree with you because I
22 MR. LIDDLE: 22 don't have that personal observation.
23 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 A. I would assume so. 24 Q. Okay. Did you see it on maps or --
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 25 A. Again, I've read about it in the
Page 63 Page 65
1 Q. Okay. In other words, the funnel 1 newspaper and in, you know, published works, but
2 effect that I asked you about before and I asked 2 I -- I don't have that personal observation.
3 you about this structure that we see here, 3 Q. Who did you deal with at Washington
4 Exhibit Number 1 and so on, it appears to you, 4 Group International, what individual?
5 based on what you know about the allegations, not 5 A. Well, this was a huge team.
6 reality, but the allegations, concerns about the 6 Q. Who was the lead guy?
7 funnel effect, that this recent contract, which 7 A. I'm going to tell you that, if
8 you were helping Washington Group International 8 you'll just be patient.
9 try and get and that the Shaw Group got was to 9 Q. Okay. Good. Thank you.
10 accomplish the construction of a series of 10 A. Alan Thrasher was in charge of
11 structures to protect against surge in the same 11 business development, and he was the lead of --
12 area as the funnel-effect surge, correct? 12 on our team.
13 A. But you're -- 13 Q. Did he ever tell that you they
14 MR. LIDDLE: 14 had -- "they," meaning Washington Group
15 Objection; ambiguous. 15 International -- had been involved in some
16 A. You're defining surge in a way that 16 contracts with the Corps of Engineers on the --
17 you want to define it. You really should consult 17 on a -- regarding a project on the east bank of
18 with the Hurricane Protection office, who's 18 the Inner Harbor Navigational Canal in
19 designed the new contract, but my understanding 19 preparation for new lock construction?
20 is that the surge they're concerned about is the 20 A. No.
21 surge coming off Lake Borgne, which is further 21 Q. You never knew anything about that?
22 east and has nothing to do with the Mississippi 22 A. Nothing.
23 River Gulf Outlet. 23 Q. I can't read my own writing
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 involving this Van something or other dredging
25 Q. Okay. But you don't know that, do 25 company.
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 66 Page 68
1 A. Van Oord Dredging was the original 1 Q. Okay.
2 partner with T.L. James in Gulf Coast Trailing 2 A. And their corporate headquarters is
3 Company. It's gone through several editions. It 3 in New Jersey.
4 was originally -- the original Gulf Coast 4 Q. Is the division head that you deal
5 Trailing Venture was Ham Holland Dredging 5 with -- I'm sorry -- that's Ellefson, is he --
6 International of Antwerp, Belgium, and T.L. 6 A. He's in Covington.
7 James. They were each 12½ percent owners. James 7 Q. In Covington. Is he the highest
8 was a 75 percent opener to comply with the Jones 8 ranking individual with the Weeks company here in
9 Act. Ham has, over mergers, over several years, 9 Louisiana?
10 has been bought up and it's now Van Oord Dredging 10 A. I would say so.
11 is the original Ham. 11 Q. Okay. Do they do dredging for the
12 Q. All right. So, we've got three 12 Corps -- I think you told me they do do dredging
13 people at 12½ percent and T.L. James at 75? 13 for the Corps of Engineers?
14 A. No. You have two people at 12½ 14 A. Yes.
15 percent and one person at 75, and that equals 15 Q. Okay. And what percentage of their
16 100. 16 work is dredging for the Corps of Engineers?
17 Q. Good. 17 A. I have no idea.
18 A. Ham is 12½, Dredging International 18 Q. How do you assist them in contracts?
19 is 12½, and James is 75. 19 A. I don't. I don't do that anymore.
20 Q. And you said in order to comply with 20 Q. Well, back when you did, how did you
21 the Jones Act, what does that mean? 21 assist them in --
22 A. That means that American -- an 22 A. I just --
23 American company has to own 75 percent, have 23 Q. Let me finish my question.
24 operating control of a venture which is involved 24 A. Yeah.
25 in coastwise trade, and dredging is considered to 25 Q. My question is: How did you assist,
Page 67 Page 69
1 be coastwise trade. 1 and we'll start with Weeks Marine, in obtaining
2 Q. Okay. And Ham became Van Oord? 2 contracts with the Corps of Engineers?
3 A. No. Ham became several other 3 A. I don't. I told you what I did with
4 things, but it currently is Van Oord. 4 Weeks was assimilate, help them to assimilate the
5 Q. Okay. What about Weeks Marine? 5 T.L. James people who had worked for me for 20
6 A. Weeks Marine bought the T.L. James 6 years into the Weeks organization. I also hoped
7 dredging fleet. And my work with them was 7 them to evaluate the equipment that they bought
8 strictly associated with the assimilation of the 8 from T.L. James and to determine what was going
9 T.L. James employees into the Weeks company and 9 to be used as part of their fleet and is
10 the assimilation of the equipment into the Weeks 10 currently being used as part of their fleet, and
11 company. 11 I also -- there was a continuing partnership that
12 Q. Okay. Does the Weeks company now do 12 Weeks was involved in with Ham, the Dutch
13 work for the Corps of Engineers? 13 company, and I was the Ham representative in
14 A. Yes. 14 dealing with Weeks to make sure Weeks paid them.
15 Q. Who do you deal with at the Weeks 15 And that partnership ran out in this past August.
16 company? 16 So, since August, I have had no dealings with
17 A. The division manager is Eric 17 Weeks.
18 Ellefson. 18 Q. When did your relationships with
19 Q. Who's the corporate president of 19 Weeks begin?
20 Weeks? 20 A. When they bought the T.L. James
21 A. I'd have to say it's Richard Weeks, 21 fleet, whatever date that was, 1999, 2000.
22 but I'm not certain of that. 22 Q. Okay. And that's when you started
23 Q. And where is Weeks Marine based? 23 your consulting business.
24 A. Their Dredging Division is in 24 A. That's correct.
25 Covington. 25 Q. And I take it that you were
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 70 Page 72
1 instrumental in Weeks purchasing the T.L. James 1 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you have
2 equipment? 2 anything to do with listing of the vessels, for
3 A. Not at all. They took -- they took 3 example?
4 bids. 4 A. I was not on the board of directors
5 Q. Who took bids? 5 and I was an operator.
6 A. T.L. James took bids. Several 6 Q. I understand. The board of
7 companies bid on -- on their fleet and they sold 7 directors isn't going to sit down and list the
8 it to the highest bidder, who happened to be 8 vessels.
9 Weeks. And, in fact, some parts of their fleet 9 A. No. Of course, someone -- you mean
10 were sold to other companies, and I don't know 10 our inventory of vessels?
11 exactly -- I don't recall who they were. 11 Q. Yeah.
12 Q. When did you start helping Weeks 12 A. Yeah. Sure. We had an inventory of
13 evaluate the people and the vessels? 13 vessels.
14 A. Sometime after the purchase. I 14 Q. Okay. Just so my question's clear,
15 don't -- you know, months later, probably. 15 there is a package that you've told me is being
16 Q. Who else bid on the fleet besides 16 bid on and the winner is Weeks Marine, which has
17 Weeks? 17 a relationship with -- with a company called --
18 A. It was advertised throughout the 18 oops -- go back to my notes -- Ham.
19 dredging industry. So, I'm -- my recollection is 19 A. That didn't happen till later.
20 not specific, but, general, I would say Great 20 Weeks -- what happened, when Weeks bought the
21 Lakes Dredge & Dock, Stuyvesant Dredging, B+B 21 fleet, they bought a dredge called a water-
22 Dredging. I would say probably the only one of 22 injection dredge, which is a dredge for which Ham
23 the major dredging companies that didn't was Bean 23 had a patent, a dredging system. So that when
24 Dredging, here in New Orleans, because they 24 Weeks bought that dredge, amongst all the other
25 couldn't afford to buy it. A mixed bag. 25 equipment, in order to operate it, they had to
Page 71 Page 73
1 Q. All right. In order for these 1 continue with the -- what had previously been a
2 companies to bid on T.L. James equipment and, I 2 T.L. James partnership with Ham. They assumed
3 take it, personnel -- is it a package? 3 that partnership and ran it out until the patent
4 A. Yeah. It was an equipment package. 4 expired in August of 19- -- of 2007 -- yeah,
5 It was an assets sale, but the condition was that 5 2007.
6 they -- that T.L. James wanted the buyer to 6 Q. Okay.
7 employ as many of its employees as possible and, 7 A. So, they hadn't been a partner prior
8 in fact -- again, my recollection is not 8 to that. There was no relationship between Weeks
9 specific, but I don't believe James sold to the 9 and Ham prior to the purchase of the James fleet.
10 highest bidder, based on the assurance that Weeks 10 Q. But Ham, I thought, became Van
11 would take on as many or all of its -- of its 11 Oord --
12 people. 12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Now, in this transaction, 13 Q. -- and Ham had a 12½ percent
14 which took place sometime in 1999, just before or 14 interest in --
15 somewhere in that same time frame, you were the 15 A. It was sold. When the Gulf Coast
16 president of the Marine Division of T.L. James. 16 Trailing fleet was sold in 1999, as part of the
17 A. That's correct. 17 overall T.L. James sale, Gulf Coast Trailing was
18 Q. And in your capacity as the 18 dissolved at that time. So, there were no longer
19 president of the Marine Division of T.L. James, 19 any partners. There were no longer any vessels,
20 I'm certain that you were instrumental in putting 20 it disappeared, except for the water-injection
21 together this package. 21 dredge, which was part of the fleet that Weeks
22 A. I was not. 22 bought, and that partnership continued.
23 Q. Who was? 23 Q. Okay. You're going to have to draw
24 A. The CEO of T.L. James, William 24 this for me.
25 Deasy, and the board of directors of T.L. James. 25 A. Why?
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 74 Page 76
1 Q. So that it's clear because I 1 was sold jointly to Weeks and B+B Dredging.
2 understand that you're the president of a 2 Three dredges, three vessels involved. Weeks
3 corporation -- 3 retained the Ouachita. B+B purchased the
4 A. Jesus Christ. Give me the pen. 4 Atchafalaya, as I've indicated there. And then
5 You're aggravating me here. 5 Weeks sold the Mermentau to a company in South
6 Q. Do you need another piece of paper, 6 America. So, the only one that's still in Weeks'
7 Mr. Hubert? 7 fleet is the Ouachita, and they named it
8 A. No. I'm doing fine. 8 something else. They changed the name.
9 Q. Okay. 9 Q. Okay. Did the transactions go
10 A. Thank you. 10 through Weeks or the transaction went from Gulf
11 Q. Here's another piece of paper so you 11 Coast Trailing to Weeks with regard to the one
12 can put it on the bottom, if you like, and we can 12 vessel and then the other two vessels were
13 just tape them together. 13 sold --
14 A. Okay. 14 A. Again, I don't recall, but I think
15 Q. As a matter of fact, let's tape them 15 they sold the two vessels to Weeks and the one to
16 together now so we can make sure we have a clear 16 B+B directly. I think there were two checks
17 picture. Like that. 17 involved.
18 MR. LAMBERT: 18 Q. I understand.
19 Counsel, we're going to need 19 A. And the other half of T.L. James was
20 another piece of tape because that 20 sold to a company called Iafredi, out of Detroit,
21 sticker is not going to hold 21 which -- the construction side.
22 everything. 22 Q. I'm interested in this marine --
23 MR. LIDDLE: 23 this is all the Marine Group, which you were the
24 We have any masking tape, 24 president of?
25 scotch tape? 25 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
Page 75 Page 77
1 (Whereupon, LH Exhibit 1 Q. Did the other group of T.L. James
2 Number 3 was marked for 2 have any contracts with the Corps of Engineers?
3 identification.) 3 A. I have no idea.
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 Q. Okay.
5 Q. Mr. Hubert, do you need another 5 A. I had my own problems.
6 page? 6 Q. Now, what did you do in preparation
7 A. No. I'm trying to give you notes 7 for your deposition today?
8 that you can read, and I'll be happy to explain 8 A. Nothing.
9 any of this crap to you. 9 Q. Did you review any documents?
10 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no intent to 10 A. No.
11 aggravate you. 11 Q. Did you speak to anyone in
12 A. No. It's just the process. My 12 particular at the Corps?
13 son's a lawyer, and he aggravates me, too, so -- 13 A. Just Keith.
14 Q. Okay. Then, I'm in good company. 14 Q. All right. No one other than
15 A. Yes, you are. 15 counsel?
16 Q. All right. I've marked for 16 A. No.
17 identification as LH Number 3 the document that 17 Q. Okay. All right. What sort of a
18 you've provided with an explanation of the 18 contract do you have as a consultant with Weeks?
19 transition of these companies. It seems to me 19 A. None. It's -- it's lapsed.
20 like the transfer in 1999 of all of the dredging 20 Q. What did you have?
21 operations, whether they're Cutter Dredge 21 A. I had a contract -- most recently
22 Division, the Clamshell Dredge Division or the 22 had a contract to find work for the water-
23 Gulf Coast Trailing Company's division, all went 23 injection dredge, which was really -- had nothing
24 to Weeks, right? 24 to do with the Corps of Engineers. It was with
25 A. The hopper -- Gulf Coast Trailing 25 plants on the Mississippi River.
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 78 Page 80
1 Q. Before that contract having to do 1 memory, but I'm going to say in about 1979 or
2 with the water-injection barge, what contracts 2 early 1980, the Atchafalaya was the first dredge
3 did you have -- I'm sorry -- what arrangements 3 that we built, and the first contract was on a
4 did you have with Weeks in terms of your 4 project called Oregon Inlet in North Carolina,
5 consulting business? 5 for Wilmington District. I remember it because
6 A. As I told you, I was -- I had a 6 it was the first one.
7 monthly contract to help them assimilate the T.L. 7 Q. What was the first one you remember
8 James people into their organization, and that 8 having to do with maintenance dredging in the
9 was really the majority of my work. 9 MRGO?
10 Q. Okay. 10 A. I don't remember any. I know we had
11 A. I had nothing to do with their 11 some, but I don't specifically remember any.
12 bidding on -- their estimating or bidding or 12 Q. The North Carolina Wilmington
13 anything from that point forward. 13 District contract, was that through -- which
14 Q. Okay. I want to back up to the last 14 division of the Corps?
15 time you had anything to do with Weeks or T.L. 15 A. It was through Wilmington District.
16 James -- scratch that. 16 Q. Okay.
17 I think what you just told me is 17 A. And that's South Atlantic Division.
18 once T.L. James sold its equipment, as you've 18 Q. What contact did you have with the
19 described in Exhibit Number 3 -- 19 Corps of Engineers office in New Orleans District
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 in connection with dredging contracts?
21 Q. -- and in your testimony -- 21 A. As I've already told you, I had very
22 A. Right. 22 little contact with any of the district offices.
23 Q. -- you had nothing more to do with 23 All of the bid processes is done in writing.
24 contracts with the Corps of Engineers for that 24 They put out solicitations, and if you're
25 entity? 25 interested in a bid, you -- in those days, you
Page 79 Page 81
1 A. That's correct. 1 had someone go in and you bought a set of plans
2 Q. Okay. Before that, that would be 2 and specs. You paid for them, bought them, they
3 pre-1999 -- 3 brought them back to the office, we estimated the
4 A. Yes, sir, right. 4 contract, we looked at it, decided if we wanted
5 Q. -- what sorts of involvement, what 5 to bid, and when we bid, we carried our bid in
6 sort of involvement did you have in helping T.L. 6 here to the bid room, to Contracting, we put our
7 James with contracts with the Corps of Engineers 7 bid in the box, it was publicly opened and that
8 for dredging? 8 was the process. So, we really didn't deal with
9 A. I reviewed the market, I decided 9 the people. There was no person-to-person
10 which contracts or which projects we were going 10 contact, per se.
11 to pursue, we were going to bid for. It was all 11 Q. None?
12 fixed price bidding. I reviewed estimates on 12 A. Very little.
13 those projects that we had decided we wanted to 13 Q. How did you -- how did you -- did
14 bid, and I approved recommended bids, and T.L. 14 you apply to work for T.L. James when you were
15 James had a Bid Review Committee where we 15 the district --
16 reviewed every project before we bid it, reviewed 16 A. No, I did not. I was recruited by
17 the estimates, both in terms of productivity and 17 T.L. James.
18 in cost, and I made the final decision on bids. 18 Q. Okay.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to 1978. 19 A. As I was recruited by Boh Brothers
20 A. Uh-huh. 20 and several other companies.
21 Q. What was the first contract that you 21 Q. Okay. Well, how did that process
22 know of that either T.L. James or Gulf Coast 22 work? In other words, you -- did you -- I
23 Trailing had with the Corps of Engineers for 23 imagine you had conversation with T.L. James.
24 dredging? 24 A. I didn't, actually. I'll tell you
25 A. I'm -- again, you're testing my 25 exactly what happened, and I just told this young
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 82 Page 84
1 lady a little while ago. I had five children and 1 (Whereupon, a discussion was
2 I had three of college age when I was here and I 2 held off the record.)
3 was notified by the Corps of Engineers from 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
4 Washington that my next three assignments were 4 This is the beginning of
5 going to be, Number 1, the command of battalion 5 Tape 3. We're now back on the
6 at Fort Carson, Colorado, for one year. The next 6 record.
7 year, I was going to the Pentagon for one year, 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 and then I was going back on what's called a 8 Q. Okay. How did you settle on Meurer,
9 hardship tour, probably -- Vietnam was over, so, 9 Serrafini as the place that you applied for work?
10 I wouldn't go back there. I would probably go to 10 A. It was a small engineering company.
11 Korea. I had already had four. I had been in 11 I wanted to go back to Arizona, where I'd come
12 Iran for a year, I had been in Vietnam for a 12 from in '75. I came from Arizona to here. They
13 year, I had been in Korea for a year and I had an 13 had just bought a new company in Tucson, on
14 assignment in Taiwan, which was a hardship tour, 14 Randolph Park. It sounded like a nice place to
15 but it wasn't really a hardship. I was going to 15 live with children, et cetera, et cetera. Cheap
16 have another hardship tour. Five kids. Hardship 16 place for my kids to go to college at either U of
17 tours mean you leave, and in those days, we 17 A or Arizona State. That's how I decided. It
18 didn't have cell phones. So, you'd leave your 18 was all a kid decision.
19 family and you'd come back in 12 or 13 or 14 19 Q. Okay. Now, when you were contacted
20 months, whatever the assignment was. You didn't 20 by T.L. James to start a new Dredging Division,
21 text message, you had no contact, and with five 21 did you -- did you have any idea that there might
22 children, kids going to college -- for one thing, 22 be a reason for that request associated with your
23 I couldn't afford to put three kids through 23 position?
24 college, so, I decided to retire here. I decided 24 A. I'd already -- I had already
25 about the end of the year 1977. So, I notified 25 retired. I had already notified the government I
Page 83 Page 85
1 the Corps that I was retiring, got my retirement 1 was retired, had a retirement date. So, all of
2 date, applied for a job in Arizona and -- and -- 2 this happened after I -- and once -- once you
3 the name of the company was Meurer, Serrafini & 3 retire from the military, you know, you go
4 Meurer. I accepted a job in Tucson, Arizona, and 4 through all the paperwork, it's in stone.
5 was about to go there and I was contacted out of 5 There's no longer any gray period.
6 the blue by Bob Boh and by George Williams, after 6 Q. I understand that.
7 whom Williams Boulevard is named, by the way, and 7 A. No. No. This had nothing to do
8 he also built Veterans Boulevard. He contacted 8 with that. They wanted me to start a new
9 me and asked if I'd be interested in starting a 9 business for them.
10 new dredging operation for James. I said I'd 10 Q. Okay. Now, the new business that
11 listen. I did listen. It sounded like fun. The 11 you started for them had to do with dredging,
12 fact that there were a couple of foreign 12 correct?
13 companies involved made it sound like fun and, 13 A. That's correct.
14 so, I was supposed to leave on a Friday to go to 14 Q. And the dredging operation had a lot
15 Arizona to take the job in Arizona to start as a 15 to do with the Corps of Engineers, correct?
16 new civilian, and on that Friday, I notified them 16 A. That's correct.
17 I wasn't coming, took the job with T.L. James, 17 Q. Okay. So, did it ever strike you
18 retired on the following Monday at noontime and 18 that the -- that your prior relationship with the
19 put a suit on and went to work for T.L. James and 19 Army Corps of Engineers as the deputy director
20 never missed a day. That's how it all happened. 20 had something to do with your employment at T.L.
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 21 James?
22 Excuse me. We need to 22 A. Actually, it was just the opposite,
23 change tapes. It's the end of 23 and since you want to know and since we've
24 Tape 2. We're now going off the 24 already screwed up my day, I'll tell you why.
25 record. 25 There was an adversarial relationship between the
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 86 Page 88
1 Corps of Engineers and the dredging industry at 1 A. Yes.
2 that time. Corps of Engineers operated 16 hopper 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 dredges. New Orleans District had a dredge named 3 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
4 Langford in those days. The dredging industry 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
5 wanted someone who understood the Corps to help 5 Q. All right. What percentage of the
6 put the Corps out of the dredging business. And, 6 Corps' prior dredging business did T.L. James end
7 so, as T.L. James thought, well, you can help us 7 up with, if you know?
8 to organize the company, you've got obvious 8 A. I don't know, but I can tell you
9 organizational skills, but you can also help us 9 this, is that the dredging -- the industry
10 to figure out a way to put the Corps out of the 10 dredging fleet in 1978 was comprised of three
11 dredging business. So, since -- from 1978 11 vessels. It grew to somewhere in the
12 through the late '80s, we were able to reduce the 12 neighborhood of 15 or 16 hopper dredges. This is
13 Corps' dredging fleet from the 16 hoppers to, I 13 the industry in total. T.L. James had the two
14 think they have five right now, if I'm not 14 smallest dredges in the dredging fleet. The
15 mistaken. So, really, it wasn't -- it wasn't a 15 Atchafalaya and the Mermentau were both 1,000
16 case of benefitting from my relationships at the 16 cubic yard dredges, which were literally the
17 Corps. It was a case of benefitting from my 17 smallest in the fleet. The Mermentau was a
18 understanding of the Corps and how to cut their 18 medium-sized dredge, a 3,000 cubic yard dredge.
19 fleet down. Corps fought every -- every dredge 19 So, the answer to your question is probably T.L.
20 was a big fight. But we cut the dredges out. We 20 James did somewhere in the neighborhood of 15
21 got legislation written by Congress that required 21 percent to 20 percent of the industry portion of
22 that the Corps put work out for bids first before 22 the work that the Corps contracted.
23 it used its own equipment. That's why the 23 Q. Is that just hopper dredges or --
24 Wheeler, that you referred to, sits here part of 24 A. That's hopper dredges.
25 the time, because it can only go out on training 25 Q. Okay. What about hydraulic
Page 87 Page 89
1 missions because the Corps has to advertise the 1 cutterhead dredges?
2 work first. That's what I did. 2 A. Well, it always had its hydraulic
3 Q. Okay. 3 market, and here in the Gulf of Mexico, T.L.
4 A. So, it wasn't friendly. It was 4 James was the largest operator. Now, it was not
5 adversarial. To this day, it has not been 5 a significant operator on the east coast or the
6 friendly. 6 northeast. It did no work at all on the west
7 Q. Okay. So, what I understand you 7 coast. But on the Gulf coast, because it was its
8 just to have told me is that the United States of 8 home market, it probably did between 25 and 30
9 America used to do a lot of its own dredging? 9 percent of the market. That's a guess.
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. Did that market increase in
11 Q. And at the time when T.L. James came 11 terms of T.L. James' participation in dredging
12 to get you -- 12 for the Corps of Engineers after you became the
13 A. Right. 13 president of the organization?
14 Q. -- to work for them -- 14 A. Certainly, because the Corps of
15 A. Right. 15 Engineers' fleet was getting smaller, so, they
16 Q. -- they decided to build dredges for 16 were putting out more contracts.
17 commercial operations. 17 Q. Right.
18 A. That's correct. 18 A. I mean, that was what it was all
19 Q. Okay. And to contract with the 19 about.
20 United States -- United States through the Corps 20 Q. So, the adversarial nature that you
21 of Engineers to privately dredge as opposed to 21 discuss is because the -- there was a
22 the government doing the dredging. 22 privatization sort of, so to speak --
23 A. That's correct. 23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Okay. And T.L. James ended up with 24 Q. -- of the dredging work, which T.L.
25 a significant part of the dredging business. 25 James was instrumental in?
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
Page 90 Page 92
1 A. That's correct. 1 Q. Okay. So, a licensed mariner. He
2 MR. LIDDLE: 2 would have in his hand a contract --
3 Objection; vague. 3 A. How they did the jobs, I have no
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 clue.
5 Q. And you were instrumental in T.L. 5 Q. Okay. But it's likely that this
6 James being able to accomplish that. 6 government employee who's operating the dredge
7 A. That's correct. 7 would have at least a similar specification to
8 Q. All right. Now, in doing that, 8 the one that a commercial contractor would have?
9 isn't it true that you met with Corps people now 9 A. I could only assume so. Don't know.
10 and then, particularly here in New Orleans? 10 MR. LIDDLE:
11 A. Not individually. 11 Objection; vague.
12 MR. LIDDLE: 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 Objection; vague. 13 Q. Okay. And then after the -- after
14 A. Collectively, yeah. Industry 14 the change that you've described for us, the
15 meetings, certainly. But we hired lawyers to do 15 dredgers were commercial, correct?
16 that. 16 MR. LIDDLE:
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 17 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
18 Q. All right. To do what? 18 A. Some were.
19 A. To represent us in dealing with the 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 Corps of Engineers and the Corps of Engineers 20 Q. The ones you were dealing with were,
21 hierarchy, and we -- and like any industry, we 21 they were T.L. James, correct?
22 hired lobbyists in Washington. 22 A. Right.
23 Q. All right. And then, so, the rules 23 Q. And the hydraulic dredging
24 were changed. So, the private bids had to go out 24 operations were being run by G.W. James, III, as
25 first before the government could use its own 25 best you know, the cutterhead dredges?
Page 91 Page 93
1 dredges? 1 A. That's correct.
2 A. That's correct. Initially, they set 2 Q. And those were the ones being used
3 a certain amount of work aside for the residual 3 on the MRGO?
4 Corps fleet, but then later, there was an 4 A. Some of the contracts on the MRGO.
5 agreement made that they would in all -- in most 5 There were also hopper contracts, but much fewer.
6 cases, they would put work out for bids first, 6 Q. Okay. But, primarily, it would be
7 and if they didn't get bids, then, they'd use the 7 cutterhead dredges?
8 government equipment. 8 A. Yes, sir. Yeah.
9 Q. What steps were taken to make sure 9 Q. And the head of that Cutterhead
10 that the contract was being executed as it was 10 Division was G.W. James, III, correct?
11 designed? 11 A. That's correct.
12 A. Corps inspectors on every contract. 12 Q. All right. Now, you say government
13 Q. Okay. So, what -- before 1978, 13 Corps inspectors. Do you know how many?
14 you've got a United States of America vessel in 14 A. No.
15 the form of a dredge, would be in general, that's 15 Q. No.
16 being operated by who? 16 A. A lot. Too many.
17 A. Government personnel. 17 Q. Do you know how often --
18 Q. Government personnel. And the 18 A. Too many.
19 captain of the vessel is -- 19 Q. Too many?
20 A. A government employee. 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And military employee? 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 A. I don't know who the Corps put on 22 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
23 their dredges, but I would guess they were not 23 A. And always.
24 military employees. They were civilian mariners. 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 They were all licensed mariners. 25 Q. Did they ever shut down a job, to
24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 94 Page 96
1 your knowledge, because it wasn't being done? 1 A. So, the answer is I'm not competent
2 A. I think they shut jobs down 2 to give the answer.
3 regularly, but I don't recall that they ever shut 3 Q. Okay. All right. Now, do you know
4 one of our jobs down. 4 of any -- scratch that.
5 Q. I'm asking about on the MRGO -- 5 Do you have any information to
6 A. No, I don't recall any job they shut 6 suggest that the funnel effect, which you
7 down. 7 described -- thank you -- which you described on
8 Q. Let me get my question out. 8 the record before as being in the same area as --
9 A. The answer is no. 9 or the same general area as the surge that you've
10 Q. Well, let me get the question out. 10 drawn on Exhibit Number LH 2 -- do you know of
11 Okay. Do you know of any job on the MRGO where a 11 any information that says that that funnel effect
12 hydraulic dredge, cutterhead dredge operation was 12 is not legitimate?
13 shut down because of an inspection? 13 MR. LIDDLE:
14 A. No. 14 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
15 Q. Okay. And you know of no 15 A. That's a twisted question.
16 discussions of foreshoring, correct? 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
17 A. No. 17 Q. Let me do it again then. Don't
18 MR. LIDDLE: 18 answer it. Don't answer it.
19 Objection; vague. 19 What I'm looking for is factual
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBER: 20 information that you have that says the funnel --
21 Q. Is that correct? 21 the funnel effect is B.S.
22 A. That's correct. Same answer I gave 22 A. I have none.
23 before. 23 MR. LIDDLE:
24 Q. Right. How many times have you been 24 Objection; vague.
25 on the MRGO, yourself personally? 25 A. I have none.
Page 95 Page 97
1 A. Very few. Less than ten. Maybe 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
2 less than five. 2 Q. Okay. Good. Now -- okay. Do you
3 Q. In those less than five instances, 3 recall any discussions, conversations, debates,
4 were you on board a dredge or were you on a 4 whatever, about the surge and its effect on Reach
5 survey vessel or were you on a fishing boat? 5 1, which is the widened Intracoastal Canal that
6 What's the scoop? 6 connects on the east into the MRGO and on the
7 A. I've never fished in my life, so, we 7 west end to the Inner Harbor Navigational Canal?
8 can eliminate that. 8 MR. LIDDLE:
9 Q. All right. 9 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
10 A. So, I have gone out to visit our 10 A. Do I recall any discussions where,
11 dredges, but that's a survey boat ride. You ride 11 when, by whom?
12 out, you know, because it's faster. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 Q. Right. 13 Q. When you were in the Corps.
14 A. So, yeah, I've ridden on it a couple 14 A. No.
15 times. Wasn't something that I looked forward to 15 Q. Okay. Do you remember any
16 doing. 16 discussions about a Seabrook structure?
17 Q. Okay. And you describe the leverman 17 A. You've already asked me that, and I
18 as an individual moving the cutterhead from left 18 said no.
19 to right and up and down. Do you know that the 19 Q. Okay. These are all Engineering
20 leverman also moves the vessel? 20 Department sort of things.
21 A. Yes, I do, but you really need to 21 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
22 talk to someone else about cutterhead dredging 22 Q. Okay. So, in terms of the height of
23 who's more conversant with the details of the 23 the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
24 operation on the dredge. 24 Protection Project and its relationship to surges
25 Q. And -- 25 caused by MRGO and/or the funnel, you wouldn't
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 98 Page 100
1 have any recollection of that? 1 name of Ed Lennox, who was a friend of theirs and
2 A. No recollection. 2 at that time was president of Metairie Country
3 Q. Do you remember any discussions 3 Club -- they all belonged there, I guess --
4 about using dredge materials along the southwest 4 anyway, he recommended they talk to me. He was a
5 side of the MRGO? 5 First Division guy and he knew I was a hardship
6 A. No. I just know we were told -- 6 case.
7 when we had dredging contracts, we were told 7 Q. First Division of what?
8 where to put the material. 8 A. Army. First -- it's called the Big
9 Q. Where to put it. 9 Red One. It's an infantry division. Landed at
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 D-Day, as did Mr. Lennox.
11 Q. But in terms of knowing what it was 11 Q. Okay. And did you know Lee Matthews
12 going to be used for or anything other than just 12 before he called you on the phone?
13 where to put it, that's it? 13 A. No, I didn't know them. I didn't
14 A. Yeah. 14 know them personally. I knew who they were. I
15 Q. Okay. Now, you gave me a 15 had never met either Mr. Williams or Mr. James
16 description of what happened in terms of your 16 until I met them at lunch and we talked.
17 becoming employed by T.L. James, and I understand 17 Q. Okay.
18 that. After you were employed by T.L. James, I 18 A. Nor had I met Mr. Boh before I met
19 imagine you spent some considerable effort 19 him at lunch and talked. So, similar situation.
20 setting up their dredging operation. 20 Q. Okay. And you'd never met Lee
21 A. Right. 21 Matthews before?
22 Q. Did they have a dredging operation 22 A. I had met Matthews. I didn't know
23 before? 23 him. I had met him.
24 A. Cutterhead dredging operation and 24 Q. And when did you meet Mr. Matthews?
25 the bucket dredging operation. Bucket dredging 25 A. I don't know. I just know I had met
Page 99 Page 101
1 was operated out of Vidalia, Louisiana. It was 1 him.
2 called Atlas Company. 2 Q. Had you met him in your capacity
3 Q. Okay. 3 as --
4 A. And the -- and the Cutterhead 4 A. Probably. But the relationship
5 Division was operated out of Kenner. It was an 5 between --
6 existing division. 6 Q. Let me finish my question.
7 Q. In your three years as deputy 7 A. Let me tell you how the Corps
8 director at the Corps of Engineers, did you have 8 operates.
9 any dealings with T.L. James? 9 Q. Let me finish my question first and
10 A. They were one of the contractors, 10 then you can tell me how it operates.
11 and I didn't deal directly with the contractors. 11 A. All right. I might or might not.
12 Q. Okay. Did you tell me the name of 12 Go ahead.
13 the individual who called you on the phone and 13 Q. Okay. The record has to be clear.
14 asked you if you wanted to go to work for T.L. 14 A. I understand. Continue. Please
15 James? 15 continue.
16 A. No. You didn't ask. 16 Q. I'm not trying --
17 Q. Who is it? 17 A. I want to get the hell out of here.
18 A. Initially, it was a gentleman named 18 Q. I'm not trying to argue with you at
19 Lou Matthews, who at that time was the cutter 19 all.
20 division manager. And when I told him I was 20 A. Okay.
21 willing to talk, I met with G.W. James, Jr. and 21 Q. I'm just trying to do what we said
22 George Williams. 22 we were going to do in the beginning, which is
23 Q. Okay. 23 not interrupt each other. Okay?
24 A. And I believe that the reason they 24 A. Fine.
25 called me at all was because a gentleman by the 25 Q. My question is: Did you meet Mr.
26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 102 Page 104
1 Lee Matthews in your capacity as deputy director 1 A. I'd pick up the telephone and I'd
2 at the Corps? 2 call the person that I think they should meet in
3 A. Yes, I'm sure I did. 3 their area of interest and set up a meeting for
4 Q. Okay. 4 them.
5 A. But I want to give you the full 5 Q. Call the person where?
6 answer. 6 A. Here at the Corps of Engineers.
7 Q. Please do. 7 Q. Okay. Who would -- let's use --
8 A. The full answer is that the colonels 8 A. Let's use High Roads Solutions.
9 in the Corps of Engineers and the contractors do 9 That's a construction company.
10 not become friends so that there was no -- 10 Q. No. Let's use one that has to do
11 there's never a personal relationship or there 11 with MRGO dredging.
12 shouldn't be a personal relationship between the 12 A. None of them have to do with MRGO
13 district engineer or the deputy district engineer 13 dredging.
14 and any contractor. So, I didn't know Matthews 14 Q. Okay. That was just an ongoing
15 personally at that time. I knew he was a 15 contract that didn't have to be rebid?
16 contractor. 16 A. None of the companies that I deal
17 Q. Okay. Let's skip forward, if we 17 with bid on -- have bid on MRGO dredging
18 could, please, to the breakup of T.L. James when 18 contracts.
19 it became -- when it was purchased by Weeks. 19 Q. Okay.
20 Okay? Did you know the people at Weeks -- 20 A. Weeks did it for years before me,
21 scratch that. Back up. 21 after me, during me, has nothing to do with me.
22 What happened? Why was it that T.L. 22 Q. And T.L. James did it also?
23 James -- let's start again. 23 A. T.L. James did it, also.
24 Do you know why T.L. James was 24 Q. Okay.
25 selling its Marine Division? 25 A. But I never represented T.L. James
Page 103 Page 105
1 A. It was a family-owned company and 1 as a consultant. We're talking about the people
2 the family decided that they wanted to get out of 2 I represent now.
3 the -- out of the construction and dredging 3 Q. I understand. What you did was you
4 businesses. 4 worked for T.L. James as the president of its
5 Q. Okay. And that was in 1999? 5 Marine Division and they dredged the MRGO?
6 A. I don't know when they made the 6 A. That's correct.
7 decision. 7 Q. So, what did you do? You picked up
8 Q. Okay. And -- and your role was to 8 the phone and called the Corps.
9 help that occur? 9 A. Yeah. Sure. Let's say High Roads,
10 A. My role was to continue to operate 10 I thought that was a nice, something simple that
11 the Marine Group profitably until the sale was 11 you could understand.
12 completed to make it attractive to buyers to buy, 12 Q. Keep it simple for me.
13 which I did. 13 A. That's what I'm trying to do.
14 Q. Okay. And then you eventually went 14 Q. Good. Thank you.
15 to work for the buyer that bought it as a 15 A. I called the Small Business advisor,
16 consultant? 16 whose name is Nancy Tullis, and I have a small
17 A. Yeah. 17 business concern that would like to do Corps of
18 Q. Now, I want you to tell me, and 18 Engineers contracts. I arrange a meeting. I
19 hopefully we can get this done before lunch, what 19 bring that poor, intimidating little contractor
20 it is that you would do to assist these 20 in here, I pick him up and I bring him through
21 corporations that you've listed to obtain 21 the gate, get him cleared, bring him in and I sit
22 contracts with the Corps of Engineers. 22 him down and I say this is Johnny. He wants to
23 A. I arranged meetings for them. 23 do small contracts for the Corps of Engineers.
24 Q. Okay. Now, let's just stop right 24 Please explain to him how he gets into the
25 there. How would you go about doing that? 25 system. And then the Small Business advisor
27 (Pages 102 to 105)
Page 106 Page 108
1 nicely explains to him how to get into the 1 come in and give a presentation of this new
2 system, and then the contractor bids the work 2 Japanese system, which is fantastic. And if you
3 when something comes up that he can do. So, what 3 ever need a pile driver, I'll recommend them to
4 I do is I try to arrange a face-to-face so that 4 you. So, anyway -- and I can't tell you who I
5 the government knows who the contractor is and, 5 contacted at the time, but we did arrange for
6 should I die of old age, the contractor knows who 6 Michael Carter to give presentations.
7 the government person is that they need to 7 Q. Okay.
8 contact when they want to work. 8 A. And he's given multiple
9 Q. Okay. That's High Roads Solutions? 9 presentations here in the district.
10 A. That's one. And that's typical of 10 Q. Washington Group International, who
11 all of them. 11 did you deal with with them? I think you told me
12 Q. Okay. How did you become associated 12 already.
13 with High Roads Solutions? 13 A. Yeah. Alan Thrasher. Yeah. Theirs
14 A. I give seminars on how to do 14 is a different situation. I come to what's
15 business with the federal government in 15 called the Mississippi River Forum here in the
16 partnership with a Philadelphia lawyer named 16 district once a month. It's held first Wednesday
17 Michael Payne, and our seminars are well 17 of every month, and it's generally the navigation
18 attended. And after the seminars, people contact 18 interests on the river collect up and bitch and
19 you and ask you for help. 19 moan. And, so, the reason that the Washington
20 Q. Okay. What individual did you bring 20 Group wanted me was if they got that job on the
21 in to the Corps of Engineers from High Lands -- 21 IHNC, the surge barrier, they wanted someone who
22 High Roads Solutions? 22 could interface with the navigation industry and
23 A. Chip Weimer. 23 keep them informed about what their project plan
24 Q. Okay. And you did the same thing 24 was and facilitate cooperation between the deep
25 for Giken Pile? 25 draft, shallow draft operators and the
Page 107 Page 109
1 A. Yes. 1 contractor. So, it was a facilitation sort of
2 Q. Okay. And what individual did you 2 thing.
3 do -- did you bring in for Giken Pile? 3 Q. Inter --
4 A. Michael Carter. 4 A. Interbeton is what was Washington
5 Q. K? 5 Group's partner on that contract.
6 A. No. C-A-R-T-E-R. 6 Q. Okay. And then you've already told
7 Q. Carter. 7 us about Ham, Weeks and so on.
8 A. Yeah. It's a Boston accent. Sorry. 8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. That's quite all right. 9 Q. And you told us that Conrad Industry
10 A. But, now, Giken is a little 10 was a Morgan City shipbuilding outfit.
11 different. Giken's a different situation. 11 A. That's correct.
12 They've developed a system of driving piles, 12 Q. Okay. Who did you deal with with
13 which every New Orleanian should be interested 13 Van Oord -- Van Oord, is it, Dredging?
14 in, which is both silent and vibration-free and, 14 A. Van Oord is the current company. A
15 so that when you do a job like putting a drainage 15 gentlemen by the name of Burt Krekt, in
16 system in on Napoleon Avenue, which is probably 16 Rotterdam. K-R-E-K-T.
17 close to where you live, they can come in and 17 Q. Okay. Did you physically bring him
18 drive the pilings and not crack your house or 18 into this office as well?
19 cause damage. 19 A. I don't know that he's ever been
20 Q. Is it water jet or screw? 20 into this office.
21 A. It's hydraulic press. 21 Q. Okay. Who would it be that you
22 Q. Press. 22 brought into the office from -- from Van Oord?
23 A. Yeah. Anyway, in that case, I 23 A. I don't know that I've brought
24 wasn't looking for work for them. I was 24 anybody in here recently.
25 contacting government Corps people to allow us to 25 Q. Okay. Back when they were Ham?
28 (Pages 106 to 109)
Page 110 Page 112
1 A. When they were Ham, that was in the 1 A. No, none.
2 days before 9/11, and there weren't security -- 2 Q. We did that.
3 the security precautions there are now. So, we 3 A. Yep.
4 came and went, you know, as we needed. But 4 Q. Now, did you ever -- scratch that.
5 the -- the -- over the last ten, 15 years, the 5 Were you involved with discussions
6 Ham relationship was the water injection 6 about replacing this old lock structure between
7 business, which is a commercial business. It's 7 the Inner Harbor Navigational Canal and the
8 not something that we do for the Corps. I think 8 Mississippi River itself?
9 they had one contract back in the early '90s for 9 A. Yes.
10 the Corps and in New Orleans Harbor. So, it's 10 Q. Okay. Tell me what involvement you
11 not a government-related process. 11 had with that project.
12 Q. Did you have anything to do with 12 A. I -- that project -- the planning
13 Conrad Industries in Morgan City getting 13 for that was ongoing when I was here. There was
14 contracts? 14 a gentleman named Landry who was the project
15 A. No. No. 15 manager. He had been working on that project for
16 Q. Okay. 16 22 years at that point and he left the Corps and
17 A. No. Theirs was an operational and 17 went to work for the Department of Energy before
18 an organizational problem. 18 he went crazy. That's what I remember about the
19 Q. Have you ever heard of a group 19 project, that it didn't move one inch while I was
20 called Brettschneider/Collins? 20 here.
21 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. What do you know, if
22 Q. So, I take it you wouldn't recall 22 anything, about TR foreshore protection? And I
23 any reports done by them in connection with 23 think it comes from the Coastal Engineering
24 surge? 24 manual.
25 A. Never heard of them. 25 A. I don't know.
Page 111 Page 113
1 Q. Okay. I think you've told me that 1 Q. Your expertise were industrial
2 you have no specific knowledge about -- and I'm 2 engineering and engineering management?
3 asking you questions that have been written by 3 A. Yeah.
4 somebody else, okay, so I can cover these bases. 4 Q. So, you didn't get involved in civil
5 A. Okay. 5 engineering functions?
6 Q. If I repeat something that you've 6 A. No. We had an Engineering Division
7 already done? 7 which did that.
8 A. I'm accustomed to it. 8 Q. Okay.
9 Q. Don't scream at me. 9 A. I made them do their jobs.
10 A. I'm accustomed to it. 10 Q. You were more on the management end?
11 Q. Connecting the barrier at Chef 11 A. Yes.
12 Menteur Highway and the Chalmette area pass in 12 Q. I understand. We heard from your
13 the vicinity Bayou Dupre, that project, did you 13 hydraulics -- scratch that.
14 deal with that one? 14 We heard from the current hydraulics
15 A. Are we talking about. 15 group, which, apparently, is a division of
16 Q. I think it's this one. 16 Engineering --
17 MR. LIDDLE: 17 A. Yes.
18 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 18 Q. -- that's been here a long time.
19 A. No, I don't know anything about 19 A. Yes.
20 that. 20 Q. Do you recall any discussions with
21 Q. Okay. I asked you about the 21 them about data collection for the purpose of
22 placement of floating gates into Reach 1 at GWII. 22 studying surge potentials in the area of the MRGO
23 A. Yeah. I never heard of that. 23 and the intersection at WGI?
24 Q. Okay. Seabrook lock structures, no 24 A. Mr. Chatry, who was chief of
25 recollection? 25 engineering in my time, was a very, very strong
29 (Pages 110 to 113)
Page 114 Page 116
1 individual. So, you didn't deal with the 1 A. You'd have to ask him that.
2 individuals or the branches within Engineering 2 MR. LIDDLE:
3 Division. You dealt with Mr. Chatry. And, no, I 3 Objection; vague.
4 don't remember any of that. 4 A. I don't know. I don't think
5 Q. Okay. I'm not even going to ask any 5 organizationally, operationally, it was certainly
6 more about design criteria for levees along the 6 not his primary mission, but he may have. I
7 reaches because you've told me you didn't have 7 don't know.
8 anything to do with that. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. Things would have gone up the
10 MR. LAMBERT: 10 chain through you to him, correct?
11 Let's go off the record for 11 A. That's correct.
12 a minute. 12 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen this, and
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 13 I'm not going to put it in the record or mark it
14 Off the record. 14 because it's been in a bunch of other depositions
15 (Whereupon, a discussion was 15 and we don't need to kill any more trees, but
16 held off the record.) 16 this is a reconnaissance report of 1988. It's
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 17 entitled Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet St.
18 We're back on the record. 18 Bernard Parish Bank Erosion Reconnaissance
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 Report.
20 Q. When we were off the record, you 20 A. I have never seen it.
21 were telling me about your fishing experience 21 Q. Never seen it?
22 with Chalin Perez. Was that while you were at 22 A. Never seen it.
23 the Corps or later? 23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I think I was still with the Corps. 24 A. Other than Corps of Engineers plans
25 Q. We heard yesterday or somewhere in 25 and specs, I haven't read any Corps of Engineers
Page 115 Page 117
1 there that the location of the levee in, I guess 1 documents since 1978.
2 it would be St. Bernard Parish, was moved from 2 Q. Okay. But you don't remember seeing
3 the Forty Arpent Canal, which is -- they call it 3 this report having to do with Lake Borgne
4 the back levee, on the south side of the MRGO 4 shoreline impact, erosion, and all of that kind
5 over to the -- just adjacent to the MRGO. I say 5 of stuff?
6 just adjacent. It's 100 yards -- because of 6 A. No.
7 Leander Perez's request. Do you know anything 7 Q. It was actually created in 1988.
8 about that. 8 So, you came there in '75?
9 A. I never met Leander Perez. 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. He was apparently district 10 Q. You were gone?
11 attorney at the time. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 A. Chalin's brother? 12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let me back
13 Q. Yes. 13 up to something that was before you then.
14 A. I didn't know him. 14 Likewise, you've never seen this 1994 bank
15 Q. Okay. Now, I brought this in. 15 erosion.
16 Don't be afraid. I just want to make sure that I 16 A. No, sir.
17 understand your testimony. 17 Q. Okay. In 1957, there was Design
18 By the way, who did you report to? 18 Memorandum 1A, which has to do with the
19 We have been calling you the deputy director. 19 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet and, in particular,
20 A. Early Rush. 20 it has to do with the design template --
21 Q. Who? 21 A. Uh-huh.
22 A. Colonel Early Rush, III was the 22 Q. -- which is the 500-foot channel
23 district engineer. 23 width, 36-foot depth, I told you the one-on-two
24 Q. Okay. Did he interface with 24 side slope.
25 Congress, do you know? 25 A. Uh-huh.
30 (Pages 114 to 117)
Page 118 Page 120
1 MR. LIDDLE: 1 before?
2 Objection; vague, ambiguous, 2 A. No.
3 if there was a question. 3 Q. Okay. And that's 1978, which is the
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 4 waning years of your association with the Corps,
5 Q. Can you see that? 5 correct?
6 A. Yeah, I can see it. 6 MR. LIDDLE:
7 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen this 7 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
8 before? 8 A. That's correct.
9 A. No, not that I recall. 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
10 Q. Can you look at these channel 10 Q. Okay. The date on that is April, is
11 specifications and tell me, based on the dredging 11 it?
12 that you -- that your company did, T.L. James 12 A. April of '78.
13 Marine Division and its subsidiary having to do 13 Q. When did you leave?
14 with the cutterhead dredges, does that strike you 14 A. February.
15 as being the general design criteria for it, or 15 Q. So, two months later?
16 do you just have no knowledge of that whatsoever? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 MR. LIDDLE: 17 Q. And the discussions, obviously, have
18 Objection; vague, ambiguous. 18 been going on for ten years because the memo is
19 A. It seems reasonable, but I have no 19 dated ten years before.
20 specific knowledge. 20 A. Right.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 MR. LIDDLE:
22 Q. Okay. And if those criteria were 22 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
23 given to T.L. James, it's your understanding that 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
24 they would try and follow them, correct? 24 Q. Is it your testimony today, and I
25 A. Exactly. 25 want to understand it real clearly, that you did
Page 119 Page 121
1 Q. Okay. Closer in time, we have 1 not know or consider anything with regard to this
2 Design Number 2, which is dated 1978. Let me 2 foreshoring?
3 just take a second to look at this. I'm going to 3 MR. LIDDLE:
4 just ask you to take a look. This is dated April 4 Objection; vague, ambiguous.
5 of 1978. I want you to look at -- it's Design 5 A. I don't remember.
6 Memorandum Number 2, which has a date of April, 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
7 1968, but, apparently, ten years later, the -- 7 Q. Okay. Okay.
8 there is a memo in here, top of it's Department 8 MR. LAMBERT:
9 of the Army. The subject is the Mississippi 9 I think we're done. I don't
10 River-Gulf Outlet, and I'd like for you to read 10 have any further questions. Thank
11 in the Paragraph 1 Purpose, if you would, please, 11 you, sir.
12 into the record. Out loud, into the record. 12 THE WITNESS:
13 A. Sure. 13 Good. Thank you.
14 "The purpose of this letter 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
15 report is to update the subject 15 Off the record.
16 general design memorandum 16 (Whereupon, the testimony of
17 supplement. This report is 17 the witness was concluded at 12:04
18 limited to the Mississippi River 18 p.m.)
19 Gulf Outlet north bank foreshore 19
20 protection. South bank foreshore 20
21 protection will be addressed in a 21
22 future report. Foreshore dike 22
23 construction on the south bank is 23
24 scheduled to begin in 1980." 24
25 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever seen that 25
31 (Pages 118 to 121)

Page 122
1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE
2
3
4
5 I, LEO A. HUBERT, JR., read or have
6 had the foregoing testimony read to me and hereby
7 certify that it is a true and correct
8 transcription of my testimony, with the exception
9 of any attached corrections or changes.
10
11
12
13
14
15 (Witness' Signature)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 123
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 I, CAROL VALLETTE SLATER, Certified
5 Court Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
6 in and for the State of Louisiana, as the officer
7 before whom this testimony was taken, do hereby
8 certify that LEO A. HUBERT, JR., after having
9 been duly sworn by me upon authority of R.S.
10 37:2554, did testify as hereinbefore set forth in
11 the foregoing pages; that this testimony was
12 reported by me in the stenotype reporting method,
13 was prepared and transcribed by me or under my
14 personal direction and supervision, and is a true
15 and correct transcript to the best of my ability
16 and understanding; that I am not related to
17 counsel or the parties herein, nor am I otherwise
18 interested in the outcome of this matter.
19
20
21 CAROL VALLETTE SLATER (CCR 78020)
CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER
22 REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER
23
24
25
32 (Pages 122 to 123)


KTR00085

Enviado por

Dados do documento

Descrição original:

Direitos autorais

Formatos disponíveis

Compartilhar este documento

Compartilhar ou incorporar documento

Opções de compartilhamento

Você considera este documento útil?

Este conteúdo é inapropriado?

Direitos autorais:

Formatos disponíveis

KTR00085

Enviado por

Direitos autorais:

Formatos disponíveis

Page 1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

Videotaped deposition of LEO A. HUBERT, JR., 11

SHER GARNER CAHILL RICHTER KLEIN & HILBERT

ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS

(504)525-1753 HUFFMAN & ROBINSON, INC. (800)749-1753

31 (Pages 118 to 121)

32 (Pages 122 to 123)

Você também pode gostar