KTR00181

RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR.
3/31/2008
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION NO. 05-4182 K2
JUDGE DUVAL
PERTAINS TO MAG. WILKINSON
(Robinson, No. 06-2286)
Rule 30(b)(6) Deposition of the U.S.

ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS, THROUGH ITS DESIGNATED
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR.,
given at the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers New
Orleans District offices, 7400 Leake Avenue,
New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-3651, on March
31st, 2008.
REPORTED BY:
JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
VIDEOGRAPHER:
GILLEY DELORIMIER (DEPO-VUE)
JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR. 3/31/2008
Page 2 Page 4
1 APPEARANCES: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX
2 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 2
3 3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 LAMBERT AND NELSON 4
5 (BY: HUGH P. LAMBERT, ESQUIRE) 5 MR. LAMBERT .................................7
6 701 Magazine Street 6 EXHIBIT INDEX
7 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 7
8 504-581-1750 8 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
9 - and - 9 Exhibit RB 1 ................................10
10 BRUNO & BRUNO 10 Exhibit RB 2 ................................21
11 (BY: JOSEPH M. BRUNO, ESQUIRE) 11 Exhibit RB 3 ................................52
12 (BY: FLORIAN BUCHLER, ESQUIRE) 12 Exhibit RB 4 ................................53
13 855 Baronne Street 13 Exhibit RB 4(a) .............................66
14 New Orleans, Louisiana 70113 14 Exhibit RB 4(b) .............................67
15 504-525-1335 15 Exhibit RB 5 ................................78
16 - and - 16 Exhibit RB 6 ................................85
17 LAW OFFICE OF DANIEL E. BECNEL, JR. 17 Exhibit RB 7 ...............................101
18 (BY: DARRYL BECNEL, ESQUIRE) 18 Exhibit RB 8 ...............................110
19 425 W. Airline Highway, Suite B 19 Exhibit RB 9 ...............................122
20 LaPlace, Louisiana 70068 20 Exhibit RB 10 ..............................126
21 985-651-6101 21 Exhibit RB 11 ..............................148
22 22 Exhibit RB 4(c) ............................159
23 23 Exhibit RB 12(a) ...........................170
24 24 Exhibit RB 12(b) ...........................170
25 25 Exhibit RB 13 ..............................171
Page 3 Page 5
1 REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: 1 Exhibit RB 14 ..............................176
2 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, 2 Exhibit RB 15 ..............................185
3 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION 3 Exhibit RB 16 ..............................189
4 (BY: SARA SOJA, ESQUIRE) 4 Exhibit RB 17 ..............................191
5 (BY: RICHARD STONE, ESQUIRE) 5
6 P.O. Box 888 6
7 Benjamin Franklin Station 7
8 Washington, D.C. 20044 8
9 202-616-4289 9
10 10
11 REPRESENTING THE U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS: 11
12 CORPS OF ENGINEERS, OFFICE OF COUNSEL 12
13 (BY: NICK MARZONI, ESQUIRE) 13
14 7400 Leake Avenue 14
15 New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-3651 15
16 504-862-2843 16
17 ALSO PRESENT: 17
18 JOSEPH E. BEARDEN, III, ESQ. 18
19 CHARLES M. LANIER, JR., ESQ. 19
20 KEA SHERMAN, ESQ. 20
21 ROBERT B. FISHER, JR., ESQ. 21
22 THOMAS D. FORBES, ESQ. 22
23 R. SCOTT HOGAN, ESQ. 23
24 CHARLES SUTTON, ESQ. 24
25 ADAM CHUD, ESQ. (VIA I-DEP) 25
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 6 Page 8
1 STIPULATION 1 so that the court reporter can get a clear
2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 record. Okay?
3 among counsel for the parties hereto that the 3 A. That's fine. Correct.
4 deposition of the aforementioned witness may be 4 Q. Okay. As you know, since this
5 taken for all purposes permitted within the 5 testimony is extremely important and under
6 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, in accordance 6 oath, the same penalties for perjury apply to
7 with law, pursuant to notice; 7 false testimony given in this room just as if
8 That all formalities, save reading 8 you were sitting in a federal courtroom.
9 and signing of the original transcript by the 9 Do you understand that?
10 deponent, are hereby specifically waived; 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 That all objections, save those as to 11 Q. Okay. The other thing is
12 the form of the question and the responsiveness 12 responsiveness. From a timing standpoint, I'm
13 of the answer, are reserved until such time as 13 going to wait until you finish your answer
14 this deposition, or any part thereof, is used 14 until I start the next question. Okay?
15 or sought to be used in evidence. 15 A. Okay.
16 16 Q. And I'm going to wait -- I'm going to
17 17 ask you to wait until I finish my question,
18 * * * 18 because sometimes I'm a little slow and I don't
19 19 get it all out in a hurry. So if you could
20 20 kind of give me a chance to get finished, then
21 21 we'll have a good record with a full question
22 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR, 22 and a full response. Okay?
23 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State 23 A. That's fine.
24 of Louisiana, officiated in administering the 24 Q. Good. Now, many times -- and this is
25 oath to the witness. 25 important: Many times, a truthful response
Page 7 Page 9
1 RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR. 1 will be I don't know. And that's the truth.
2 1504 Massachusetts Avenue, Metairie, Louisiana 2 And I don't want you to search for an answer
3 70062, a witness named in the above 3 that's not there. On the other hand, if the
4 stipulation, having been first duly sworn, was 4 truthful response includes something that you
5 examined and testified on his oath as follows: 5 have an idea of, since this is a discovery
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 deposition I want you to answer it. And I'll
7 Q. Mr. Broussard, my name is Hugh 7 give you an example. If I were to ask you the
8 Lambert, and I represent the plaintiffs in this 8 last time you had chocolate cake, for example,
9 matter. I had the pleasure of reviewing a 9 your truthful response, unless you had it last
10 rough transcript of your testimony a few days 10 night, would probably be I don't remember or I
11 ago -- I say a few days, maybe a week. I know 11 don't know. But if you knew that you had
12 you've been through this drill before, and as I 12 chocolate cake at your granddaughter -- well,
13 understand it that was your second deposition, 13 you're not old enough --
14 so this will be your third? 14 A. I'm old enough.
15 A. Correct. 15 Q. -- your daughter's birthday party, and
16 Q. Okay. There are rules which I know 16 even if you didn't remember the date, sometimes
17 you know but I'm going to put them on the 17 we forget, a truthful response will be I don't
18 record just so we both understand what we 18 know the exact date when I had chocolate cake
19 expect of each other. 19 but I remember I had it at my daughter's
20 You're under oath. You understand 20 birthday party. The reason being is that we're
21 that. 21 entitled to find out information from other
22 A. Correct. 22 sources and that's why we do these discovery
23 Q. And shaking your head is fine, and we 23 depositions. So then we could go -- and of
24 all do it, and I'm not going to ask you not to, 24 course we wouldn't have to in the case of your
25 but you need to make a noise at the same time 25 daughter, you could go ask your wife or
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 10 Page 12
1 whatever what that date was, and we could find 1 Q. Okay. All right. When we take a
2 it out. Okay? 2 break I'm going to ask your counsel to provide
3 A. Okay. 3 us with a copy of that. You can give it to her
4 Q. So I want you to include in your 4 and she can decide if it's something that we're
5 truthful answers whatever indication you have 5 entitled to, or we can at least identify it and
6 of what it is that the question involves. Do 6 then we'll discuss whether we can get it or
7 you understand that? 7 not.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 What was in the report? Was it sort
9 Q. Okay. Now, you have been identified 9 of a history, or what was it?
10 in a document that I'm going to mark for 10 A. I never have read the report in
11 identification as Exhibit Number 1 as a witness 11 detail, myself. It was a report that was
12 in this case. And if you'll look at Page 3 of 12 submitted, like I said, by the Port of New
13 that document you'll see Richard Broussard. 13 Orleans, or the Commission at the time, and
14 That's you. 14 basically it was some proposed facilities,
15 (Exhibit RB 1 was marked for 15 proposed along the IHNC, around the JIWW, and
16 identification and is attached hereto.) 16 the development in the St. Bernard area, you
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 might say, all tied in with construction as
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 18 they referred to it back then I believe it was
19 Q. And it says that you're going to 19 the tidewater channel.
20 testify regarding design, construction and 20 Q. Okay. I've seen something like that
21 maintenance of the MRGO. See that? 21 subject in some papers. Is that where there
22 A. Yes, I do. 22 was discussions about putting a connection
23 Q. And that's what this deposition is 23 between the Mississippi River and the, um --
24 about. In other words, our desire is to ask 24 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet for some
25 you questions and have you provide us with 25 additional wharfage and so on?
Page 11 Page 13
1 answers so that we get an idea of what it is 1 A. This report includes some of that,
2 that you're likely to say when you testify in 2 yes, sir.
3 the trial of this matter. 3 Q. Yeah.
4 Do you understand that? 4 A. That's correct.
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And some discussions about future
6 Q. Okay. So the way we start out with 6 development. And I'm looking at this map
7 that is to ask you if you've reviewed any 7 that's in front of us, I'm going to -- let me
8 documents in connection with your preparation 8 describe it in words -- along what I think you
9 for this deposition or the one you gave last 9 call the south side of the MRGO Reach 2?
10 week so that we'll have an idea of what 10 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
11 information base -- paper base you have. 11 Q. We don't have that, but what I'm going
12 A. The only document I reviewed just 12 to do is I'm going to reference that document
13 prior to this was there was a report that's in 13 as the Forge Ahead document. Okay?
14 the repository on -- prepared by the Port of 14 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
15 New Orleans. I believe it was a 1950 report. 15 Q. And we'll get it during a break and
16 Q. All right. And do you remember the 16 take a look at it and see if we can include it.
17 title of it or the subject of it? 17 A. Sure.
18 A. I'm not sure exactly. I want to say 18 Q. You looked at another document before
19 maybe something like "Forging Ahead." 19 your last deposition which you described in
20 Q. Okay. 20 that testimony, and I can't remember what it
21 A. I'm not sure. It was a document that 21 was, but you said it was a memo that you had
22 I had in my office that was -- I had a scanned 22 prepared? Do you remember what it was?
23 copy is what I had in my office. It was an 23 A. I think I know which one you're
24 electronic copy that I printed out myself. The 24 talking about, yes, sir. It was a summary.
25 original is in repository. 25 Q. Yeah. A summary. Do you still have
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 14 Page 16
1 that? 1 you said that you were a professional engineer
2 A. Do I have that? 2 intern.
3 Q. Yeah. A copy of it. 3 A. I'm an engineer intern, right. Not a
4 A. I have an electronic copy, that's all. 4 PE.
5 Q. Would you print out the electronic 5 Q. Okay. And why is that; why didn't you
6 copy of that document and provide it to your 6 take your professional engineering test or
7 counsel, as well? 7 whatever?
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 A. I guess I thought about it, but I
9 Q. Okay. And what title are we going to 9 guess for the job that I was in at the time, it
10 give that one? We've got the Forging Ahead. 10 was not required way back when. I considered
11 What's the title of the other one? 11 taking it a few years back, and I guess with
12 A. That one there was basically -- it 12 workload I guess I just did not pursue it
13 was -- it was basically like a history or like 13 further.
14 a summary of, you might say, maintenance of the 14 Q. Okay. So your degree is in civil
15 inland reach of the MRGO within the last six, 15 engineering?
16 seven years. 16 A. That's correct. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. Let's just call it a summary of 17 Q. Okay. From UNO.
18 inland reach maintenance. Let's just say 18 A. That's correct.
19 summary -- 19 Q. In what year?
20 A. Recent. 20 A. I graduated in 1980.
21 Q. -- summary of maintenance, because 21 Q. All right. And then how long after
22 we're not sure what's in it. Okay? 22 you graduated from civil engineering in 1980
23 A. Okay. 23 did you take the intern exam?
24 Q. All right. Good enough. 24 A. I took it the year before.
25 A. And another document I had reviewed 25 Q. The year before you graduated.
Page 15 Page 17
1 today beforehand was also -- which is also 1 A. That's correct.
2 available in the repository electronically, was 2 Q. And then I take it you were successful
3 a, um -- database file of the MRGO history. 3 in that.
4 Q. Okay. Just so I get an idea, Forging 4 A. That's correct. Yes.
5 Ahead, pages, roughly? Plus or minus? How 5 Q. Okay. And then after your graduation,
6 many? 6 having taken the intern exam, you were
7 A. 75 to 100, I would say. 7 qualified to take the PE exam but you didn't
8 Q. All right. And the summary of the 8 get around to it.
9 maintenance history? 9 A. That's correct.
10 A. That was -- from what I recall, it was 10 Q. Okay.
11 one sheet. 11 A. I believe at that time you had to
12 Q. One sheet. 12 wait -- at one time there was about a four or
13 A. Yes, sir. One, possibly two, but one 13 five-year period that you were supposed to work
14 sheet I think. 14 in between the engineering intern exam, or they
15 Q. The database file for MRGO history. 15 referred to it as the engineering training
16 How many pages do you think that is? 16 exam, and the PE.
17 A. I believe that could be printed within 17 Q. Right. And you got to have a
18 seventy sheets. 18 professional engineer sign off on your
19 Q. Seven sheets. All right. 19 application to take the PE exam? This is what
20 A. Seventy. 20 it is today.
21 Q. Seventeen? 21 A. I believe several professional
22 A. Seventy. 22 engineers have to sign off on it, so.
23 Q. Oh, seventy sheets. 23 Q. Attesting to the fact that you
24 A. Seven zero, yes. 24 completed that internship, so to speak, in
25 Q. Good. All right. Now, I believe that 25 other words, several years of working as an
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 18 Page 20
1 engineer. 1 look at, that had to do with the construction
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 of the MRGO as a deep draft vessel navigational
3 Q. Okay. And again, that's just a step 3 channel. Correct?
4 you didn't complete. 4 A. Correct.
5 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And that's what it is, correct?
6 Q. What areas -- you know, and this is 6 A. Correct.
7 just a very general question: What areas do 7 Q. And it was never intended in any way
8 you anticipate -- oh, by the way, I've seen you 8 to be a flood control project, correct?
9 referred to as Richard, Rick, um -- did I miss 9 A. To my knowledge, yes.
10 any? 10 Q. Okay. And the authorization nemesis,
11 A. My nickname is Rick. 11 beginning of it, was, as I understand it, the
12 Q. Rick. Okay. And then of course your 12 Rivers and Harbors Act of 1956. Does that make
13 last name is Broussard. 13 sense?
14 A. Correct. 14 A. I honestly -- I'm not familiar with
15 Q. Okay. How do you go -- what's the 15 that --
16 common address that people give you around 16 Q. Okay, fine.
17 here, is it Rick? 17 A. -- so I can't --
18 A. I go by Rick, yes, sir. 18 Q. But you know there was some
19 Q. Mine is Skip. I don't know how that 19 legislation.
20 comes from Hugh, but that's the way it is. Do 20 A. That's correct.
21 you mind if I call you Rick? Is that okay? 21 Q. And the plan was to make this channel
22 A. That's fine. 22 about 500 feet wide at the bottom, correct?
23 Q. All right. 23 A. Correct.
24 MS. SOJA: 24 Q. All right. And I'm going to give you
25 I think it would be better to 25 a document so I can refer to a page number.
Page 19 Page 21
1 refer to him as Mr. Broussard, for the 1 RB 2 -- you know, I think I'm going to -- this
2 record. 2 has two exhibit stickers on it. The new one,
3 MR. LAMBERT: 3 which is the one I put on it, is RB 2. It's
4 I'll do that. Mr. Broussard. 4 also previously been marked as U.S. 702(C)
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 Number 42.
6 Q. I've been slapped. 6 MR. LAMBERT:
7 A. That's fine. 7 How do you want to do that? Do
8 Q. All right. Mr. Broussard, based on 8 you want me to just mark it with the
9 what you sort of glean from the deposition 9 new exhibit number? When it's xeroxed
10 preparation that you did today and discussions 10 it going to be confused.
11 that you've had -- and I'm going to get into 11 MS. SOJA:
12 the chain of command here in a minute -- what 12 For the purpose of this
13 is it that you feel like you're likely to 13 deposition, I think we'll just --
14 testify to in connection with the flooding of 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
15 New Orleans after Katrina? 15 Q. Just use -- let's do that. 2 is
16 A. I honestly don't know. 16 easier. RB 2. (Tendering.)
17 Q. Okay. All right. Let me ask you 17 A. All right.
18 this: I'm going to -- I got a stack of stuff 18 (Exhibit RB 2 was marked for
19 we're going to go through here, but let me just 19 identification and is attached hereto.)
20 ask you, do you agree with me that there was a 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 plan to construct the MRGO some time ago and 21 Q. And what I've done, and you can --
22 that after its construction there was -- well, 22 it's up to your counsel -- you can use these
23 let's take them in baby steps. Back in the 23 tabs if you want, because that's where I'm
24 fifties there was discussions, and we've got 24 going to refer, or if you want to you can take
25 these design memorandums and stuff which we can 25 them all off and do whatever you want. But
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 22 Page 24
1 this is Exhibit Number 2. (Tendering.) 1 additional depth for advanced maintenance and
2 MR. LAMBERT: 2 it gives you a 2 feet advanced maintenance
3 Here's your copy, counsel. 3 depth, correct?
4 MS. SOJA: 4 A. Correct.
5 Thank you. 5 Q. And then it says, allowable overdepth,
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 parens, inaccuracies in dredging -- meaning
7 Q. And if you look at the first purple 7 this ain't no surgical procedure, just using
8 tab you can see the general description, and it 8 common terms. So you can have two feet of
9 says in there it was authorized by the Rivers 9 mistakes in terms of the dredging. Or
10 and Harbors Act, approved 29 March 1956. 10 variation, let's put it that way. They're not
11 You see that? 11 mistakes, they're variations.
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 A. It's a working tolerance.
13 Q. Okay. 13 Q. Yes. And then the channel slope is
14 MS. SOJA: 14 1:2. So I guess that means for every foot of
15 What page are you on? 15 depth you have two feet of width from the
16 MR. LAMBERT: 16 bottom up to the surface.
17 Um -- I should have marked yours, 17 A. It's one vertical and two horizontal,
18 too. Look at his. 18 correct.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 Q. All right. Then it has a berm width.
20 Q. Now, and it says -- right in the very 20 What is that?
21 first line, it says, the Mississippi River Gulf 21 A. It's the first time I've actually seen
22 Outlet, Louisiana, a navigational improvement. 22 this, but the berm width, to me, would be like
23 Correct? 23 from the existing bank, or could be -- could be
24 A. Yes, sir. 24 from the top of cut of that slope --
25 Q. Okay. So that fits with what you 25 Q. Uh-huh.
Page 23 Page 25
1 understand it to be, it's a navigational -- 1 A. -- to the channel side to, let's say,
2 deep draft vessel navigational channel, 2 a retaining dike.
3 correct? 3 Q. Okay.
4 A. That's correct. 4 A. It could be. Like I said, I'm not
5 Q. Okay. Now, if you'll flip over to the 5 sure offhand. It's the first time I've seen
6 second tab, it's got the channel design 6 this.
7 criteria. And that's what I was just asking 7 Q. I understand. Okay. Then -- so, but
8 you about. Now, this document for the record 8 what it looks like, and later on I'm going to
9 is dated way back in 1957. So this April of 9 show you where it talks about some slope
10 '57, this is a year after the legislation, and 10 calculations, and somehow 140 comes out in
11 it says it's going to be 500 feet wide, and 11 there, based on a 40-foot depth. I can't
12 that's at the bottom. 12 remember the exact math, but anyway -- all
13 That's what's authorized; correct? 13 right. And it says 140 feet minimum.
14 A. Correct. 14 Would that be the top of the berm
15 Q. And it's authorized to be 36 feet 15 above sea level? As best you know, based on
16 deep, and it says below m.l.g. 16 your understanding of the terminology.
17 What is m.l.g.? 17 A. As I said a little while ago, you
18 A. M.l.g. refers to mean low gulf. It's 18 know, it's the first time I've seen this.
19 a vertical datum. 19 Q. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. And that makes sense. You want 20 A. In this report here, berm width.
21 to have 36 feet for these -- for the draft of 21 Q. Right.
22 these vessels to clear the bottom, right? 22 A. And the only thing I can presume is
23 That's what you're interested in. 23 that a berm width could be from the anticipated
24 A. Correct. 24 top of cut to the inside, to let's say a
25 Q. Okay. Then it says, required 25 retaining dike. I really don't know for sure.
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 26 Page 28
1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you to flip to the 1 Q. I see something that says dike. Do
2 back of that Exhibit Number 2. And there are 2 you see that?
3 several plates. You see it? 3 A. I see a dike.
4 A. Uh-huh. 4 MS. SOJA:
5 Q. And I think that there is one Plate 5 Where are you looking?
6 Number A that has some definition of the berms. 6 A. I see a spoil dike, yes.
7 And guess what? I brought something for you. 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
8 You may not need it, but I sure do. 8 Q. Right. Okay. Well, so I have the
9 (Tendering.) 9 terminology right, you have a channel, and then
10 MS. SOJA: 10 the channel has a spoil area and then a berm,
11 Is that Plate 4? 11 or a berm and then a spoil area? How does it
12 MR. LAMBERT: 12 go?
13 Yeah. It is Plate 4. 13 A. The area I'm referring -- what I was
14 MS. SOJA: 14 referring to which could -- which is a berm,
15 Okay. 15 now whether that's that 140-foot berm they're
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 referring to --
17 Q. Does that help to find that berm width 17 Q. Right.
18 for you? 18 A. -- would be from where the channel
19 MR. LAMBERT: 19 slope intersects the natural ground --
20 Did I give you guys a copy? 20 Q. Yes, sir.
21 MS. SOJA: 21 A. -- to where the channel side to the
22 You did. 22 disposal dike begins --
23 A. I'm trying to find something labeled 23 Q. Okay.
24 berm width. 24 A. -- it would be this portion of natural
25 MS. SOJA: 25 ground, in other words.
Page 27 Page 29
1 Are you able to read that? 1 Q. I understand. Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: 2 A. That's a berm. Now, whether that's
3 Yeah. I can read some of it, 3 the 140-foot berm that's referred to, I don't
4 yes. 4 know.
5 MS. SOJA: 5 Q. Okay, fine. So you would have
6 Okay. 6 channel, you'd have berm, and then you'd have a
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 channel dike.
8 Q. Okay. 8 A. A disposal dike, yes.
9 A. In other words, I see a dimension 9 Q. A disposal dike. And behind the
10 which appears to be, although it's hard to 10 disposal dike is where you put --
11 tell, about 240 feet, although like I said it's 11 A. The dredge material.
12 hard to tell, from the bottom edge of cut on 12 Q. -- the dredge material.
13 the middle cross-section to the center line of 13 Okay. Good. Now, would you take this
14 the retaining dike on the channel side. 14 Sharpie, on Exhibit 1 [sic], Plate 4, and just
15 Q. Okay. 15 draw a big circle around the area that has the
16 A. But I'm not sure -- 16 berm and the spoil dike in it just so that in
17 Q. I understand. 17 the future we can see where we were focusing.
18 A. It's hard to make -- 18 A. This exhibit here?
19 Q. It is hard to make it out. 19 Q. Yeah. A big circle.
20 A. I'm not sure what that is anymore. 20 A. (Witness complies.)
21 That dimension -- but there is one dimension, 21 Q. And then draw an arrow out to the
22 but I've not seen anything yet referring to a 22 white part of that page and just label it for
23 berm, though. 23 me, please.
24 Q. Right. 24 A. How would you like it labeled?
25 A. A berm width, though. 25 Q. Why don't you put, um -- SD, spoil
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 30 Page 32
1 dike/B, berm. 1 it were -- so I guess a higher degree would be
2 A. (Witness complies.) 2 a sharper turn?
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. 3 A. Correct.
4 A. Sure. 4 Q. Okay. So if you made one of these
5 Q. Now, let's go back to the 5 channels and you had instead of a degree of
6 specifications again. And it says, a minimum 6 curvature of 1 degree, seven minutes, you put
7 of 140 feet of berm, and then -- 7 in 2 degrees, seven minutes, a ship wouldn't be
8 MS. SOJA: 8 able to make the turn, correct?
9 Is that your second tab? I'm 9 A. I would not say it could not make the
10 sorry to interrupt you. 10 turn, but it's -- also you have to account for
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 whether you're looking for one way or two-way
12 Yes. Right here. 12 traffic.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 Q. Okay. Safely.
14 Q. And then it says -- 14 A. Safely, at the same time, correct.
15 MR. LAMBERT: 15 Passing one another, correct.
16 And that's quite all right. Any 16 Q. So in other words it wouldn't meet its
17 time. It helps me because sometimes I 17 design criteria for the ships that are
18 confuse myself. 18 considered to use this navigable channel.
19 MS. SOJA: 19 A. It would not be the desired criteria,
20 I just want to make sure we're on 20 you might say, yes, for two-way traffic, if
21 the same page here. 21 that were that case, yes.
22 MR. LAMBERT: 22 Q. Then it says, target distance
23 Literally. 23 approaching a bridge, 2000 feet minimum. What
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 does that mean?
25 Q. Degree of curvature: 1 degree, 7 25 A. That's actually tangent distance.
Page 31 Page 33
1 minutes maximum. Is that, um -- from center 1 Q. Oh, tangent.
2 line? 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 A. That, basically, by reading this right 3 Q. Right. What does that mean?
4 here, based upon the design vessel that was 4 A. I'm not sure about the distance, but
5 proposed for this project here was probably the 5 tangent distance is another component of a
6 maximum allowable degree of curvature for the 6 curve.
7 curves within the MRGO channel that could 7 Q. Uh-huh.
8 easily accommodate those vessels, meaning beam 8 A. Just like the greater curvature is and
9 widths, length, et cetera. 9 the angle you're approaching. I'm not sure
10 Q. Okay. So in other words, that's 10 what they're referring to there as far as
11 the -- that makes it clear that the vessels 11 tangent distance approaching bridges, whether
12 using that navigable waterway can make the 12 that's the minimum distance between a curve and
13 turns within their limitations, in other words 13 a bridge, I really don't know --
14 their steering capabilities. 14 Q. Okay.
15 A. It's one feature -- it's one feature 15 A. -- what they're referring to here.
16 of the components of a curve that you evaluate 16 Q. Now, on that same page at the bottom,
17 when you are assessing, you might say -- when 17 there's just a mention of Hurricane Flossy.
18 you're trying to put in, you might say, proper 18 You see that?
19 curves for channels, be it for a barge channel 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 or be it for a ship channel, in other words. 20 Q. It says that an all time high -- and
21 Q. Okay. 21 they're talking about the water level -- during
22 A. And it all takes into account the 22 the passing of Hurricane Flossy in 1956 at
23 designer vessel, as I said before, the beam 23 which time the gauge on the Inner Harbor
24 width, the draft and the length of the vessel. 24 Navigational Canal lock read 7.2 feet m.l.g.
25 Q. So if, for example, this were off and 25 Do you see that?
9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 34 Page 36
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 feet.
2 Q. Okay. Now, that lock is the one 2 Q. Three and a half? Okay.
3 between the Mississippi River and the Inner 3 And that would be where the bottom of
4 Harbor Navigational Canal? 4 the berm would start, if you had 140 feet of
5 A. It's inside the Inner Harbor -- it's 5 spoil.
6 between the Mississippi River and where the 6 A. No, the berm -- if the berm is, like I
7 MRGO channel tied into the IHNC. 7 referred to you earlier, between the top cut of
8 Q. Okay. Now, on this lock, would that 8 the channel --
9 be on the inner harbor side of the lock or on 9 Q. I meant the dike.
10 the river side of the lock? The inner 10 A. It would be the interior of the dike,
11 harbor -- it would be the inner harbor side, 11 correct.
12 wouldn't it? 12 Q. So it would be 3 feet high at the
13 A. Based upon this, it does not say. It 13 bottom of the retaining dike, if you had
14 does not specify whether it's on the forebay or 14 140 feet width of --
15 the tailbay side. 15 A. As a horizontal distance.
16 Q. Okay. I wonder where we could find 16 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, down to channel
17 that out? Oh, it's in some other documents. 17 protection, Paragraph 16.
18 Okay. Never mind. 18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Let me ask you to turn to 19 Q. And just follow with me and see if I
20 Paragraph 16, page 7, next tab. 20 read this correctly. No channel protection is
21 A. Okay. 21 required initially, however --
22 Q. At the top of that page, and you might 22 A. Recommended.
23 have to back up to stability analysis, 23 Q. I'm sorry -- is recommended
24 Paragraph 15, first, and start reading that 24 initially --
25 sentence. I think this is where I was getting 25 A. Right.
Page 35 Page 37
1 this spoil stability. It says, it has been 1 Q. -- however -- I tell you what. Why
2 found impractical to construct fills for 2 don't you read it because I'm bad at this.
3 retaining dikes higher than 6 to 7 feet above 3 A. No channel protection is recommended
4 the ground surface or to spoil hydraulic fill 4 initially, however, erosion due to wave wash in
5 higher than ten feet above ground surface and 5 open areas can be expected in the upper part of
6 with slopes steeper than approximately 1 to 40. 6 the channel slope where the peat and highly
7 Do you see that? 7 organic clays are exposed. Protection for this
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 area can be provided if and when the need for
9 Q. 1 to 40 would be for the spoil? 9 it becomes necessary. No channel protection is
10 A. Out -- that's going to be the slope of 10 included in the overall cost of the project.
11 the spoil itself, yes, sir. 11 It is presumed that sufficient rights of way
12 Q. Okay. So if you wanted to be just a 12 will be furnished by local interests to
13 foot above the surface, or the water level, 13 preclude use of channel protection or that
14 you'd go out forty feet width. Two feet would 14 additional rights of way will be furnished when
15 be 80 feet? 15 the need arises. The reach covered by this
16 A. Yes. 16 report lies in the proposed new harbor
17 Q. And what would you get with 140 feet? 17 development area, and the construction of
18 A. You'd get 140 times 40. 18 slips, wharves, piers and other structures will
19 Q. What height would you get? Would it 19 probably provide for some channel protection
20 by 140 -- 20 that may be required.
21 A. Oh, 140 horizontal? 21 Q. Okay. So what that says to me is
22 Q. -- divided by 40? 22 we're going to dig this MRGO with no channel
23 A. Divided by 40. 23 protection initially, but we think it's going
24 Q. So what would that be, seven -- 24 to erode due to wave wash sometime in the
25 A. A little over three. Three and half 25 future. Correct?
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
Page 38 Page 40
1 A. Yes. 1 Q. In '80, right. That's right. Okay.
2 Q. And it also says that when it does 2 So this is way before your time here.
3 there will be some shore protection when it's 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 necessary-if it becomes -- when and if it 4 Q. Okay. Does it make sense to you that
5 becomes necessary. Correct? 5 the analysis of what is going to occur later on
6 A. It says -- 6 in a project is based on assumptions that are
7 Q. No, it doesn't say if. Yeah, it does 7 made in the beginning of the project? Does
8 say. If and when it becomes necessary. 8 that make sense, in general?
9 A. It says can be provided if and when 9 A. There are studies that are performed,
10 the need becomes necessary. 10 and, you know, whenever there's, let's say, I
11 Q. Okay. And then it says here there's 11 guess, development or expansion that may be
12 going to be some development along the, um -- 12 proposed by a local sponsor, um -- it could be
13 the canal which might help provide for some of 13 a federal, local or state agency, for example,
14 that. 14 in other words, and that development is
15 A. Correct. 15 accounted for in the economics of the project
16 Q. All right. Now, along Reach 2, which 16 as far as also what type of project is to be
17 is from the intersection of the MRGO with the, 17 built, what are you going to accommodate, will
18 um -- barge Intracoastal Waterway, all the way 18 that be barge or ship traffic, in other words.
19 out to the end of the MRGO out in Chandeleur 19 Q. I understand. I guess I was being a
20 Sound, there's no development along there from 20 little more basic than that as far as this
21 a commercial standpoint, slips, ships slips, 21 channel design goes. Um -- we've got some more
22 any of that kind of stuff, correct? 22 documents here, but to fast forward a little
23 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 23 bit, do you know of any -- and if you do, tell
24 Q. Okay. And so that part of, um -- 24 me where -- any changes in terms of the
25 these piers, wharves and other structures which 25 channel, um -- profile? I think you call it
Page 39 Page 41
1 might provide some channel protection never 1 something else; template?
2 happened, correct? 2 A. The template, right.
3 A. Never came to pass, as far as I know. 3 Q. Okay. Do you know of any of any
4 Q. Now, the only suggestion of developing 4 change in that from the one I originally showed
5 wharfage, as I've seen it, and correct me if 5 you to look at in Exhibit Number 2, which is
6 I'm wrong, is along the south side of the 6 that 500 feet wide at the bottom and 36 feet
7 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet. Correct? 7 deep?
8 A. Reach 2? 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Yeah. 9 Q. Okay. What did that change to?
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 MS. SOJA:
11 Q. Okay. So the north side along the -- 11 I'm sorry, Rick. I'm going to
12 I'll call it the Lake Borgne side, the 12 object based on vagueness. Are you
13 northeast side, that was never considered as a 13 talking about Reach 2? Reach 1?
14 likely place to have commercial development, on 14 Along what area?
15 Reach 2. 15 MR. LAMBERT:
16 A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. 16 Good point. Thank you. Good
17 Q. Okay. All right. 17 point.
18 Now I can go through a whole lot of 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
19 stuff and probably eventually we'll go through 19 Q. What I'm asking you now has not to do
20 some more of it, but there was then, in, um -- 20 with the actual -- first of all, we know that
21 1958 a memorandum which -- now, when did you go 21 the MRGO eroded significantly, don't we?
22 to work for the Corps? 22 Correct?
23 A. I actually started here as a student 23 A. There's been erosion, yes, sir.
24 in November, '76, and started here permanently 24 Q. Okay. And we know that the channel
25 upon graduation in May of '80. 25 width, for example, at the top, at least,
11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 42 Page 44
1 instead of being 650 feet wide as originally 1 Q. 42, okay. Now, where is that in
2 thought, has gotten significantly wider than 2 writing?
3 that, correct? 3 A. The additional advanced maintenance?
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. In Reach 2, we're talking. 5 A. That may be in some -- could be in
6 By the way, I'm going to stick to 6 some supplemental documents. A lot of times
7 Reach 2 just for a little higher, so we know 7 there are projects where based upon maintenance
8 where we are. 8 additional advanced maintenance is authorized.
9 A. Okay. That's fine. Good. 9 That would be requested by another office.
10 Q. What I'm asking you really doesn't 10 Q. Okay. What other office?
11 have to do with erosion right now, what I'm 11 A. It could be part of a study which
12 asking you are the specifications, in other 12 could have been our old planning division years
13 words, whether or not there was a change in the 13 ago, which is now the PPPMD, planning,
14 width of the template or the cross-section or 14 programs, project management office here.
15 the slope 1:2, from a design standpoint, not 15 Q. Wait a minute.
16 from a real life standpoint, but from a design 16 A. PPPMD, which is planning, programs and
17 standpoint, that you know of. 17 project management office.
18 A. For Reach 2, the only thing that has 18 Q. Okay.
19 changed, to my knowledge, is the advanced 19 A. Formerly, the old planning division
20 maintenance issue. 20 here at the district.
21 Q. Okay. In other words, advanced 21 Q. Who's in charge of that?
22 maintenance meaning being able to dredge a 22 A. Actually, I'm not sure who is in
23 little deeper in order to avoid having to 23 charge of it right now.
24 dredge so often. 24 Q. Okay.
25 A. That's correct. 25 A. Um -- we've reorganized quite a bit,
Page 43 Page 45
1 Q. Okay. I understand. But I'm talking 1 so I'm not sure who's in charge of that
2 about was there ever a situation, that you're 2 division overall. There is an east and a west,
3 aware of, where there were actual design 3 actually, so I'm not sure. It comes under the
4 changes that -- other than the advanced 4 exec office for the most part, though.
5 maintenance, that allowed for -- or specified a 5 Q. Executive?
6 wider channel? 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Okay. When was the reorganization?
8 Q. Okay. Now, since you mentioned it 8 A. There have been a number of
9 we'll talk about it right now. Advanced 9 reorganizations, believe me. It's constantly
10 maintenance: As I understand that, and I told 10 ongoing. I really -- it changed from planning
11 you I read your deposition -- okay? What 11 to PPP, it went to a life cycle project
12 you're talking about is going four feet deeper 12 management and it's changed. It's evolved
13 than 36 feet. 13 quite a bit within the last 25 years.
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right.
15 Q. Okay. And I imagine that four feet 15 A. It could also come from the operations
16 then, on the bottom of that four feet would be 16 manager who was in charge of, you know, the
17 that tolerance you talked about, two feet. 17 funding and the maintenance of the project for
18 A. Below that, yes, sir. 18 the district.
19 Q. All right. So what you got is, um -- 19 Q. And who is that?
20 a channel depth of 40 feet, 36 plus 4 -- 20 A. Currently, right now, it is Richard
21 correct? 21 Entwistle.
22 A. Correct. 22 Q. Now, organizationally, who do you
23 Q. -- and then a two-foot tolerance, 23 report to?
24 meaning plus or minus. Correct? 24 A. My office -- my office, for the most
25 A. Two foot below that, to 42. 25 part, reports you might say to the operations
12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 46 Page 48
1 managers. 1 advanced maintenance.
2 Q. Okay. And who is your boss? 2 Do you recall -- and this is that one
3 A. My immediate supervisor is Mr. Keith 3 with the birthday cake, okay? Do you recall
4 O'Cain. 4 actually seeing in writing a memorandum about
5 Q. Keith? 5 advanced maintenance dredging to 42 feet?
6 A. Keith, yes, sir. 6 A. I've not seen -- I don't recall ever
7 Q. And who does he report to? 7 seeing any information addressing any
8 A. He reports -- his immediate supervisor 8 additional advanced maintenance, myself.
9 is Ms. Jean Vossen. 9 Q. Okay. So where did you get the
10 Q. All right. And who does she report 10 information that this 36-foot deep channel
11 to? 11 could be 42 feet deep?
12 A. Mr. Walter Baumy who's of the 12 A. 36 to 42, keep in mind, is the
13 engineering division. 13 advanced maintenance and the overdepth.
14 Q. And who does Mr. Baumy report to? 14 Q. No, I understand.
15 A. The colonel. 15 A. Okay.
16 Q. The colonel? 16 Q. But where did you get the information
17 A. Right now. Col. Lee. Col. Al Lee, 17 that it was okay for these projects to go to
18 the deputy district engineer. 18 42 feet instead of 40 feet, I guess -- no,
19 Q. And who does he report to? 19 let's see, it would be 36 plus 2 -- 38. So
20 A. I guess he reports to the division 20 it's 38 to --
21 chief. 21 A. Well, 36 plus 4 advance, plus the 2
22 Q. Who would be? 22 overdepth.
23 A. Offhand, I'm not really sure to be 23 Q. Right. Where did you get that
24 honest with you. 24 information?
25 Q. Okay. 25 A. That was from previous plans and
Page 47 Page 49
1 A. When I say division -- yeah. We've 1 specifications that my office had prepared for
2 just had one retired. 2 the operations division in the past.
3 Q. Is there an organizational chart that 3 Q. No, I understand you got plans and
4 you're aware of that shows this structure? 4 specifications that allow you to go to the
5 A. I know there's some charts on the 5 42-foot depth that you created. I understand
6 Corps USACE website, and it may be also on the 6 that.
7 New Orleans District website you may be able to 7 A. Okay.
8 get to it. There are links on the website, 8 Q. I'm asking you, where or from whom did
9 yes, sir. 9 you get the okay to do that?
10 Q. Okay. Now, I notice that you got to a 10 A. I myself, personally, from the time I
11 colonel after William Baumy. 11 came on board, in other words, you might say
12 A. Walter Baumy. 12 reconjured up plans and specifications for
13 Q. Walter Baumy. 13 various regions based upon previous O&M
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 contracts that were put out. In other words,
15 Q. Is Walter Baumy an Army officer? 15 you review the plans and specs to see what
16 A. No, sir. 16 depths that were required to be dredged to,
17 Q. He's a civilian? 17 what overdepth was allowed, and then that was
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 incorporated into the next set of plans and
19 Q. Okay. Is everybody below Col. Lee a 19 specs.
20 civilian that you're aware of? 20 Q. But where the first one came from you
21 A. Everybody I named for you, yes, sir. 21 don't know.
22 Q. Okay. 22 A. I don't know. No, sir.
23 A. Under Lee. Under Col. Lee. 23 Q. Okay.
24 Q. All right. Now, we talked about where 24 A. That was before my time. Yes, sir.
25 this written information might be about this 25 Before my time.
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 50 Page 52
1 Q. Now, I saw that you have a lot of 1 tab.
2 information in your office regarding these 2 (Exhibit RB 3 was marked for
3 templates and specifications for the profile of 3 identification and is attached hereto.)
4 the MRGO. Would you be kind enough to provide 4 A. Okay.
5 to your counsel -- this is the third thing 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
6 we're asking for, now -- a plan and 6 Q. Let's see if we're on the same page.
7 specification template, as far back as you can 7 Let me see that? Yeah. That's right.
8 go, so that we can see the profile that you're 8 A. Uh-huh.
9 talking about, in Reach 2 again. We're still 9 Q. If each -- and I'm going to ask you to
10 in Reach 2. 10 read for me, please, Paragraph 2 d, like in
11 A. As far back as I can go? 11 dog.
12 Q. Yeah. Time-wise. 12 A. Okay. If each phase of channel is
13 A. That's all in the repository. 13 excavated as a box cut, the channel slopes of
14 Q. Okay. 14 about 1 on 2 probably will result during
15 A. Depending on how far back you want to 15 excavation since their factor of safety is
16 go. 16 about one. However, they may ultimately fail
17 MS. SOJA: 17 because the shear strength of the clay may
18 With respect to these documents 18 decrease due to reduction of effective stress
19 that, um -- you've asked for from the 19 caused by excavation. Therefore, the stability
20 start of the deposition, I think you 20 of slopes should be checked based on CD shear
21 asked for the -- 21 test data to evaluate the long-term stability.
22 MR. LAMBERT: 22 If these analyses show flatter slopes required,
23 Forging ahead. 23 consideration should be given to excavating the
24 MS. SOJA: 24 final flatter slopes by a series of step cuts
25 Forging ahead. 25 to reduce maintenance dredging in lieu of
Page 51 Page 53
1 MR. LAMBERT: 1 making a box cut and then be confronted with
2 And then the second one was the 2 possible considerable maintenance dredging.
3 summary of maintenance. 3 Q. Okay. Now, let's discuss that for a
4 MS. SOJA: 4 minute. Box cut is where you cut the thing in
5 Okay. Because we're not under, 5 a profile that looks like a box; right? As
6 under the CMO, an obligation to get to 6 opposed to the angles -- that 1 to 2 slope.
7 you today, we'll compile them at the 7 Let me be a little clearer. Forget that
8 end and take a look at them and get 8 question. Stand by.
9 them to you. 9 I'm going to mark this for
10 MR. LAMBERT: 10 identification as -- and I've got a mad reason
11 No problem. 11 for doing this, and so I'll -- that's all
12 MR. BRUNO: 12 right. Number 4. (Tendering.)
13 At the end of -- 13 I'm going to ask you to flip to
14 MR. LAMBERT: 14 Page 3, if you would, please. And you may have
15 At the end of the deposition. 15 seen this before.
16 MR. BRUNO: 16 (Exhibit RB 4 was marked for
17 This deposition. 17 identification and is attached hereto.)
18 MR. LAMBERT: 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Yeah. 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
20 Okay. Fine. 20 Q. Because I think maybe this was
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 attached to your last deposition.
22 Q. We're going to zip through these. 22 A. That's correct.
23 Exhibit number 3 is entitled Design 23 Q. Okay. So Page 3 and Page 4 are
24 Memorandum 1-B, dated September, 1958. And I'm 24 probably what you were talking about in your
25 going to ask you to take a look at the first 25 deposition. Am I guessing right?
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 54 Page 56
1 A. I recall Page 3, yes, sir. 1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let's stick to Page -- 2 Q. I mean, in other words, it's a cutter
3 well, let's just use Page 3 at first. It looks 3 head that's got -- that turns the bottom
4 to me like the explanation of box cut on Page 4 material into a slurry.
5 3, Figure 1, the second one down, would mean 5 A. It's got blades and teeth, yes, sir.
6 that the width of the channel would be, at 6 Q. Okay. So what you're telling me is
7 depth, considerably wider than the original 7 that the cutter head is dropped down, and let's
8 500 feet to allow the area for the top to fall 8 just say -- and we're going to use 42 because
9 in. Correct? 9 that's the maintenance dredging depth --
10 A. Based upon this schematic, yes. 10 dropped down to 42 feet, and you've got a
11 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not the 11 2-foot tolerance, so it could be 44 feet?
12 bottom of the channel in the box -- or first of 12 A. No, 40 is the required depth.
13 all, let me back up. 13 Q. 40 is the depth.
14 Based on the Exhibit 3 that I showed 14 A. 2 is the bottom of the overdepth.
15 you, box cutting is allowed -- as a matter of 15 Q. So we've got 36 feet is the design
16 fact, it's discussed and contemplated by these 16 depth, correct?
17 design memorandum with the Corps, correct? 17 A. Uh-huh.
18 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. You got to say yes.
19 Q. You got to say yes. 19 A. Correct. That's the project depth.
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Project depth. Okay. And then you've
21 Q. Okay. So the practice of box cutting 21 got, um -- two feet of maintenance dredging, by
22 is one where the dredger can drop the cutter 22 the document I showed you, Exhibit Number 2.
23 head down vertically, correct? And then move 23 Remember that?
24 it horizontally? 24 A. On that original document, yes, sir.
25 A. In general, what you see here on this 25 Two foot of advanced maintenance.
Page 55 Page 57
1 Page 3 of this Exhibit 4 -- 1 Q. Right. So that's 38?
2 Q. Uh-huh. 2 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
3 A. -- it would be a box cut for, in this 3 Q. And then you were given a two foot
4 case here, an existing channel. 4 additional for advanced maintenance.
5 Q. Okay. 5 A. Correct.
6 A. Maintenance. 6 Q. That gets to us 40.
7 Q. That's what we're talking about. 7 A. Right.
8 A. And the -- they don't necessarily drop 8 Q. And then you've got two feet of
9 the cutter there, they bring it down and they 9 tolerance.
10 swing it across the channel. 10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Makes sense. 11 Q. So 42. So between 40 and 42, the
12 A. And they go -- this is exaggerated, 12 cutter head is dropped down and it's moved
13 this drawing here, to begin with here. 13 horizontally. The original design width was
14 Q. Okay. 14 500 feet. That would be 250 feet on either
15 A. They swing it out slightly wider than 15 side of the center line; correct?
16 the authorized width -- 16 A. Correct.
17 Q. I understand. 17 Q. Okay. How far further do your plans
18 A. -- to allow for materials up on the 18 and specifications allow that cutter head to go
19 slope, which this schematic does not show -- 19 for maintenance dredging?
20 Q. Right. 20 A. We don't specify how far is allowed.
21 A. -- to fall in and fill in that area 21 We only tell the contractors that box cut will
22 there. 22 be permitted. And we have a sketch that gives
23 Q. No, I understand. So first of all, 23 them a typical schematic of a box cut detail
24 the cutter head is -- I look at it like an 24 which basically shows that the width you go
25 inside out garbage disposal. 25 outside is only enough -- is only to
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 58 Page 60
1 accommodate whatever has to fall on the slopes. 1 correct.
2 Q. I understand. 2 Q. Right. Right. And now can you give
3 A. That's up on the slopes, in other 3 me your best estimate of how much further than
4 words, inside the theoretical template, in 4 250 feet of center line the box cut detail
5 other words, to fall in that bottom corner, in 5 allows the dredger to go?
6 other words, that you're swinging out to. 6 A. Like I said, the detail does not --
7 Q. Did you attach that to the last 7 there is no specifics. It's a detail, and it's
8 deposition, that thing that you give them? 8 on a case-by-case basis, and it could vary by a
9 A. No, sir. I was not asked to. 9 cross-section. Every cross-section taken on
10 Q. Okay. 10 that channel, which are taken every 200 feet
11 A. And I don't recall if they had one or 11 along the channel, as to how much material on
12 not. I'm not sure if they had it or not. 12 the slopes have to be accommodated for to fall
13 MR. LAMBERT: 13 into that corner, in other words.
14 I want one. Let's get that, too. 14 Q. Okay.
15 So this will be Number 4. 15 A. And it also is a process of the
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 dredging operation by -- based upon the
17 Q. Let see. Number 3 was the 17 dredging contractor themselves and the dredge
18 repository -- from the repository, and that was 18 they have working and the lever man on that
19 the oldest template. Remember, the oldest plan 19 dredge. So it depends upon the actual natural
20 that you have that shows the 42 feet? 20 conditions that exist before they actually
21 A. Oh. 21 start excavating every one of those
22 Q. I'm talking about things we're going 22 cross-sections.
23 to get. 23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Shows the 40 and the 2 foot of 24 A. That determines how wide they may go
25 tolerance. 25 out with the box cut, how much they have to
Page 59 Page 61
1 Q. Right. Let's call it the 40 plus 2. 1 account for, in other words, to fall in from
2 Okay? And that's going to be dug out of the 2 the corners, in other words, from the slopes.
3 repository. 3 Q. All right. So we're talking about the
4 And this is going to be the 4 leaderman on the job, that would be a guy
5 template -- is it called the template? 5 employed by Bean Dredging, for example, or
6 A. It's a detail. 6 whatever other company -- dredging company it
7 Q. Let's call it a detail. 7 is, and he would make a decision as to how far
8 A. It's a box cut detail. 8 horizontally the cutter is going to move off of
9 Q. Box cut detail. 9 the proposed -- or the -- let's say design
10 All right. Now, when the external 10 250-foot bottom width?
11 blade and teeth encounter the bottom, they -- 11 A. To me it would have to be the lever
12 they turn the material into small enough 12 man because the lever man is up there by
13 particles so that it can be a slurry and 13 himself in that cabin and he's operating that
14 pumped, correct? 14 dredge. There's somebody telling him, for
15 A. Correct. 15 example, you need to go so many feet wide.
16 Q. Okay. And so as compared to 16 He's swinging out, in other words, so to me,
17 draglines, buckets, in those scenarios the 17 for the most part it's on the lever man now.
18 material is gathered in a clump, and it's not 18 I'm not saying there may not be other people
19 busted up and mixed with water to create a 19 like a captain, maybe, that may consult with
20 hydraulic slurry. Correct? 20 the lever man, but it's for the most part in
21 A. It's not as much of a slurry, correct. 21 the hands of that dredge lever man.
22 If it's maintenance material, it's going to be, 22 Q. Now just so we've got our terms clear,
23 in some cases, soft, but it will not be like a 23 the lever man is the guy that's pulling the
24 slurry, it will not have as much moisture, 24 levers on the -- to guide the boom that's got
25 water, like as in a hydraulic operation, 25 the cutter attached to it.
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 62 Page 64
1 A. He's operating the dredge. He's 1 example, what -- how he goes about doing it,
2 operating the advance as well as also the swing 2 does he check service, or does somebody tell
3 of the dredge and the depth of the cutter. 3 him? I don't know. Somebody else may tell
4 He's got full control over that. 4 him, for example, based upon surveys in a
5 Q. I understand. So advance means how 5 particular reach, like for the next 400 reach,
6 much forward the vessel is moving, correct? 6 in other words, this is the kind of face we're
7 A. Correct. 7 looking at, so much material on the slopes, so
8 Q. All right. That's the advance. And 8 then maybe he makes a determination as to how
9 the swing is how the cutter head is moved from 9 wide he has to swing for that next 400 or
10 left to right off of center line. 10 200-foot reach. I don't know exactly how
11 A. Correct. 11 that's determined --
12 Q. Correct? 12 Q. I understand.
13 And the height is when he raises it 13 A. -- by them.
14 and lowers it. 14 Q. I understand. Now, the lever man
15 A. The raising and lowering of the 15 doesn't work for the Corps of Engineers.
16 cutter, correct. 16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. And he has some levers that he's 17 Q. Okay.
18 manipulating, kind of like a crane operator. 18 A. That's correct.
19 A. Very similar. Yes. 19 Q. And the Corps of Engineers is under an
20 Q. Very similar. And he's making the 20 obligation to build the MRGO as designed,
21 determination of how wide to make the bottom 21 correct?
22 cut based on what he sees is going on with the 22 A. Construct and maintain the MRGO.
23 banks falling in? 23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. No, based upon -- that's all 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 considered before dredging cross-sections that 25 Q. Okay. And so would you agree with me
Page 63 Page 65
1 are made available to them. 1 that part of your job with the Corps of
2 Q. Okay. So now is he looking at a 2 Engineers is to make sure that the contractors
3 cross-section in the cab while he's doing this? 3 that you hire comply with the specifications
4 A. I honestly don't know how they go 4 for maintenance that you provide to them so
5 about exactly. All I know is they have surveys 5 that the channel has all of the characteristics
6 available to them, and somehow the lever man is 6 that it was designed to have. Is that fair?
7 the one that's in charge of determining how 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 wide he has to swing out at every one of those 8 Q. Okay. So we don't want it to have
9 cross-sections. That's all I know. 9 curves in it that are too sharp, as you've
10 Q. And how do you know that? I mean, 10 pointed out, correct?
11 what's the source of that information? 11 A. Correct.
12 A. I'm just saying from site visits, in 12 Q. Okay. And we want it to maintain the
13 other words. 13 kind of profile or template that it was
14 Q. All right. 14 designed to, correct?
15 A. You go up there, if you go to the 15 A. Correct.
16 lever room, a lot of times you'll go up there 16 Q. All right. Now, I saw in your
17 and the lever man is by himself. His or 17 deposition that you visit, depending on the
18 herself. 18 contracts, the site -- do site visits once a
19 Q. I understand. Okay. 19 year, at least, but maybe two or three times a
20 A. And nowadays, you know, they have -- a 20 year, depending on the contracts that are let?
21 lot of them may have plots in that lever room 21 A. Depending upon the contracts that are
22 office that are plotting cross-sections as they 22 let, depending upon the I guess you might say
23 get them in from the surveys. So I'm not 23 the magnitude of the contract, if it was
24 sure -- personally, I don't know, for example, 24 something unique, in other words, or if
25 I'm not in their mind -- I don't know, for 25 something comes up in the field that I need to
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 66 Page 68
1 go there -- I kind of determine whether or not 1 cutting the channel starting, let's say, from
2 the personnel who work directly for me, whether 2 the top to the bottom in like, let's say, maybe
3 they'll go or whether I should go, also. 3 five-foot increments.
4 Q. Okay. Now, if we go back and look at 4 Q. So if I could see this diagram 4(b),
5 this Figure Number 1 -- 5 as I understand what you are talking about
6 A. Okay. 6 would be doing, and I'm just going to
7 Q. -- and I'm going to -- I'm going to 7 exaggerate this, but just so it's -- something
8 actually -- this is Exhibit -- what Exhibit -- 8 like this?
9 4, isn't it? 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 A. It's 4 in mine. RB 4. 10 Q. Okay. And I'll just put it like this.
11 Q. Okay. I'm going to give you 4(a). 11 It's like a ladder.
12 And it is another diagram just like the one you 12 A. It's like a series of small box cuts
13 have. And I've colored in these two triangles. 13 is what it is.
14 And of course if we draw a box around that 14 Q. And steps.
15 we're going to know that those things are 15 A. Steps, correct.
16 equal. 16 Q. Yeah. Ergo, step cutting.
17 (Exhibit RB 4(a) was marked for 17 A. Correct.
18 identification and is attached hereto.) 18 Q. And I'm going to label this Step
19 A. Uh-huh. Correct. 19 Cutting.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 Is that accurate? I mean --
21 Q. Because they're -- I can't remember 21 A. That's a good depiction, yes, sir.
22 what that deal is, but they're equal. So? 22 Q. Okay. Just a depiction.
23 MR. BRUNO: 23 Okay. Now, the step cutting would
24 Euclid. 24 leave in place the solid material under it.
25 MR. LAMBERT: 25 When I say solid -- let me back. Scatch that.
Page 67 Page 69
1 Oh. Thank you. 1 Start again.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 2 The step material would leave in place
3 Q. So if you look at the amount of 3 whatever was there in the first place, whether
4 material on the top triangle, it's supposedly, 4 it's peat or -- in other words, it's not going
5 theoretically, equal to the amount in the 5 to count on what's up here in the top falling
6 bottom triangle, correct? 6 into what's on the bottom.
7 A. Well, and that's what I alluded to a 7 A. No, it would be just like a box cut.
8 while ago when I gave you my explanation, is 8 It would be a series of small box cuts.
9 this detail here does not show material, it 9 Q. Right. It it's not counting on big
10 shows existing channel. 10 amounts of material falling into overexcavated
11 Q. No, I understand. I understand. 11 depths.
12 A. Okay. If this were material, yes, it 12 A. It minimizes that, correct.
13 would be equal quantity, yes. 13 Q. Okay. And it leads to -- as it
14 Q. Okay. Now, RB 4(b) is just a bigger 14 suggests in Exhibit Number 2, it leads to a
15 version of what we've got. Right? 15 more stable cut.
16 (Exhibit RB 4(b) was marked for 16 A. More stable and minimizes the impact
17 identification and is attached hereto.) 17 zone outside, you might say --
18 A. Okay. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 A. -- of the slope.
20 Q. Now, back when we talked about box 20 Q. And it minimizes, or it's designed to
21 cutting in Exhibit Number 3, it said that there 21 minimize erosion, correct?
22 was -- it talked about step cutting. 22 A. I'm not sure if it necessarily
23 A. (Nods affirmatively.) 23 minimizes erosion. It minimizes how much
24 Q. What is step cutting? 24 you're going to excavate outside the template,
25 A. Step cutting is basically if you -- is 25 let's put it that way.
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 70 Page 72
1 Q. So it minimize it's amount that you're 1 MS. SOJA:
2 going to be excavating outside of the original 2 Do you need a break?
3 design. 3 THE WITNESS:
4 A. Correct. 4 Yeah. Maybe at 10:30 could we
5 Q. And just so we're clear with what we 5 take a break maybe?
6 mean by that, I'm going to color in this down 6 MR. LAMBERT:
7 here. That's the -- the red in Exhibit 2(b) 7 Sure. No problem.
8 [sic] is what it would minimize cutting. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 Right? 9 Q. All right. Now, the dredger -- the
10 A. Yes, sir. For the most part, yes. 10 lever man, or lever woman, depending on who's
11 Q. Okay. And so that would be -- and 11 in the cab --
12 we'll label that, if you would, please, excess 12 A. Correct.
13 cutting. 13 Q. -- they work for the dredging company.
14 A. Well, just keep in mind that if this 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 were a virgin cut, what this allows for is for 15 Q. As I understand it, on the MRGO the
16 this to fall into here. 16 box cutting is the way that these operations
17 Q. No, I understand. 17 are done. Is that right?
18 A. So it would not be excess when you 18 A. That's something that would have to
19 took the after dredging survey. 19 be -- is verified by our construction division
20 Q. Okay. But we're not talking about a 20 who administers the contracts and who inspects
21 virgin cut right now, we're just talking about 21 them.
22 maintenance dredging. 22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Maintenance, yes. And you would not 23 A. All we tell a contractor is a box cut
24 do this in maintenance. This is not a typical 24 will be permitted in our specs.
25 maintenance scenario here. 25 Q. And you probably know that they would
Page 71 Page 73
1 Q. Okay. 1 likely do box cutting because it's cheaper.
2 A. So I'm not sure if you want to mark 2 Correct?
3 this or -- if you rather mark this yourself as 3 A. Well, in all likelihood that's what
4 far as excess, because to me, for maintenance, 4 they would do, yes.
5 this is excessive, yes. 5 Q. Well, I mean, it's cheaper for them,
6 Q. Okay. It is excessive. 6 because they move this dredge off of center,
7 A. Okay. So put excessive? 7 they don't have to do all these steps.
8 Q. Uh-huh. Excessive cutting. 8 Correct?
9 A. I mean, it's not my term. 9 A. That's correct. Plus it's shoal
10 Q. No, the record is clear. Look, 10 material, it's not virgin material, so it will
11 there's a video camera here to make sure that 11 slide in, it will fall back in the cut -- the
12 it's all straight. 12 box cut easier, in other words, than virgin
13 A. That's fine. 13 materials -- than a virgin cut would.
14 Q. Okay, I understand. 14 Q. Okay. So in other words, what you're
15 MS. SOJA: 15 saying is shoal material, meaning it's silt
16 And for clarity 's sake, this was 16 that's built up in the channel just by movement
17 4(b), correct? 17 in the water, correct?
18 MR. LAMBERT: 18 A. Correct.
19 4(b). 19 Q. And so that as you do the box cut it's
20 MS. SOJA: 20 going to be easier for it to slide back in the
21 You said 2(b). 21 overdredged section because it's not -- it's
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 22 not, um -- original material in place over
23 Q. I'm sorry. 4(b). 23 hundreds of years.
24 Exhibit 2 is the one that talks about 24 A. Right.
25 step cutting. 25 Q. Okay. Now, based on your review of
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 74 Page 76
1 the original construction, was the original 1 about doing it, whether it's one -- let's say a
2 construction of the MRGO box cut, or was it 2 big box cut or a series of box cuts in steps,
3 step cut? 3 that a lot of times is specified in the plans
4 A. I have no idea. I've not seen -- I've 4 and specs.
5 never seen any cross-sections from the original 5 Q. Did you specify that in your plans and
6 MRGO after it was built. 6 specs for the MRGO, to do small step cutting?
7 Q. All right. Okay. Now, but just from 7 A. I have no -- I don't know. I'm not
8 your knowledge of dredging, is it fair to say 8 familiar with the plans and specs for the
9 that the dredger who gets paid by what, the 9 construction of MRGO.
10 cubic yard? 10 Q. Not construction. Maintenance.
11 A. Gets paid by the cubic yard. 11 Talking maintenance.
12 Q. Cubic yard of material removed, would 12 A. Maintenance? No, sir.
13 be more profitable in box cutting than step 13 Q. Let's make sure we understand the
14 cutting? You know that. 14 question and the answer. You did not specify
15 A. Well, step cutting is a form of box 15 in your maintenance contracts that step cutting
16 cutting, in other words, so it's the same -- 16 was to be done versus box cutting. Correct?
17 it's just how deep do you go? 17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Yeah. But what I'm getting at is, if 18 Q. Okay. So then you left it up to the
19 you're dredging, isn't it more economically 19 dredger whether to box cut or to step cut.
20 feasible -- remember, under oath here -- 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 A. I know. 21 Q. And whichever way the dredger chose to
22 Q. Okay -- economically feasible to do a 22 do that was okay with the Corps of Engineers
23 large box cut rather than the step cuts? 23 for maintenance dredging.
24 MS. SOJA: 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 I'm going to object. He may not 25 (Brief recess.)
Page 75 Page 77
1 have personal knowledge here. 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
2 A. Yeah. As I say, a lot of stuff goes 2 Q. Okay.
3 into it. That would depend upon the nature of 3 A. Mr. Lambert, I'm going back to I think
4 the materials, it depends upon also the 4 one of your original questions at the beginning
5 contractor, in other words. It depends upon 5 of the deposition was what I have reviewed this
6 the dredger in place. I don't have that 6 morning.
7 knowledge to my mind on the MRGO. 7 Q. Yes, sir.
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 8 A. There's another document from the
9 Q. Okay. But I guess maybe let's deal 9 repository. It was a 1945 reported on the
10 with what you do know. 10 tidewater channel that I'm going to make
11 A. Okay. 11 available to Sara.
12 Q. You do know -- you do know that box 12 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
13 cutting is allowed by the Corps. 13 A. I thought that was originally just in
14 A. Correct. 14 the IHNC, but that does go to the gulf. So I
15 Q. And you're going to provide us with a 15 will make that available.
16 detail that shows box cutting, correct? 16 Q. All right. And just so we keep our
17 A. Correct. 17 terms straight -- and by the way, you did
18 Q. And you're going -- and you do know 18 exactly what you're supposed to. If we take a
19 that it is up to the dredger, and/or the lever 19 break and you remember something, or even while
20 man which is an employee of the dredger, to 20 you're testifying you remember something that
21 decide whether to box cut or step cut. 21 I've asked you in the past that you want to
22 A. Unless -- and like I say, I'm going to 22 clarify for some reason, just do it, just like
23 repeat it again, step cutting is a form of box 23 you. Did?
24 cutting. It's a series of box cuts. Okay? 24 A. Okay. Thank you.
25 How he goes about doing it, the lever man goes 25 Q. Okay. Tidewater channel, as I
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 78 Page 80
1 understand it, means that it is affected by the 1 Q. Okay. So it's 500 feet all the way
2 tides, meaning in this case there's 2 down to La Loutre -- I'm sorry, all the way
3 communication between the Mississippi River 3 down to the gulf.
4 Gulf Outlet and the Gulf of Mexico through the 4 A. Correct.
5 inner harbor canal as well as through the 5 Q. Okay. And then you can go 600 feet
6 gulf -- the gulf end of it down by the 6 wide.
7 Chandeleurs. Correct? 7 A. That's what we refer to as the bar
8 A. I'm not sure if that's why they refer 8 channel, right, which is in the gulf, right.
9 to it as a tidewater channel, but yes, it is 9 Q. And still authorized channel depth
10 tidal. 10 36 feet below m.l.g. Correct?
11 Q. Goes up and down. 11 A. Uh-huh. Correct.
12 A. It is tidal, yes. 12 Q. And then it says, however, an
13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I think the 13 additional 2 feet of depth will be provided for
14 last design memo I gave you was September of 14 advance maintenance and an additional two feet
15 '58. Is that right? 15 allowed as overdepth to compensate for tidal
16 A. Exhibit number 3? 16 fluctuations and inaccuracies in dredging.
17 Q. Yes, sir. 17 So there's your tolerance.
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 A. The tolerance, correct.
19 Q. Okay. And then Exhibit Number 5 is 19 Q. Okay. So as of 1959, and this is the
20 November of '59 Design Memo Number 1(c). 20 third design memorandum, we're still looking at
21 (Tendering.) 21 the same authorized width of the Mississippi
22 (Exhibit RB 5 was marked for 22 River Gulf Outlet, 500 feet bottom width up in
23 identification and is attached hereto.) 23 the area between Bayou La Loutre and Reach 1.
24 MS. SOJA: 24 A. You mean Reach 2?
25 Could we get a copy, please? 25 Q. That's the Reach 2 area, but up to the
Page 79 Page 81
1 MR. LAMBERT: 1 Intracoastal Waterway.
2 I'm so sorry. (Tendering.) 2 A. Yes.
3 MS. SOJA: 3 Q. Okay. And the depth didn't change
4 That's okay. Thank you. 4 either in terms of what was authorized.
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 A. Authorized depth is the same in that
6 Q. Now, I want you to turn to the first 6 reach, yes.
7 tab which is the first page that says general, 7 Q. Okay. Now, in this document, going to
8 again. 8 Page 3, it starts to talk about -- it's talking
9 A. Okay. 9 about stone retention dikes. You see that?
10 Q. All right? And it says in here the 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 channel will have a theoretical slope of 1:2 11 Q. And where is this area --
12 and a bottom width of 500 feet from Bayou 12 Paragraph 6 -- where the discussion of stone
13 Latour to the Gulf of Mexico, a bottom of 600. 13 retention dikes involves?
14 So it's 500 feet wide between Bayou Latour -- 14 A. Those are the jetties, the north and
15 A. La Loutre. 15 south jetties of the MRGO channel.
16 Q. I'm sorry, La Loutre -- between Bayou 16 Q. Okay. That's out in the Chandeleur
17 La Loutre and the Intracoastal Waterway -- 17 Sound?
18 A. Okay. 18 A. No, sir, that's inside -- that's where
19 Q. -- and then 600 feet south of that. 19 you get from the land cut to the Breton Sound
20 Is that the way is it? 20 area.
21 A. No. Actually, it's -- let me just 21 Q. Okay. Can you show me that on --
22 read this report and respond to you. It says 22 regarding a mile post or one of these -- is
23 it's going to have a 500 foot width from Bayou 23 that -- I'll get it for you.
24 La Loutre to the gulf and then a bottom width 24 A. Oh, okay. Sure. That's these rock
25 of 600 feet in the gulf. 25 jetties here that begin roughly at Mile --
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 82 Page 84
1 actually, 23.2, and they go on out. This is 1 The mile markers are incorrect.
2 the south jetty, and here's the north jetty 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
3 here. 3 Q. They're incorrect?
4 Q. Okay. Now, is that Breton Island? 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Tell me why.
6 Q. Okay. What's that island, do you 6 A. They're off.
7 know? 7 Q. Okay. Tell me which ones are off that
8 A. That's actually some marsh that was 8 you can see.
9 created by the Corps from maintenance dredging 9 A. Well, the lands end at the jetties
10 behind the south jetty. 10 here actually starts at Mile -- roughly Mile
11 Q. So the jetty goes all the way along 11 23.2. And Bayou La Loutre as referred to in
12 this area. 12 that design document is roughly Mile 36.43
13 A. That's correct. 13 rather than 39 as shown there.
14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, while we've 14 Q. Okay. So the mile markers are off.
15 got this here, do you know if that green line 15 A. Correct.
16 is the original design width? 16 Q. Okay, good. Now, I guess these are --
17 A. I've never seen this map until now. 17 well, we'll find out more about that. Okay.
18 Q. Okay. 18 Thank you.
19 MS. SOJA: 19 There's other map which I'm going to
20 Would you like to have that 20 reference later on which is further north, and
21 marked? 21 that is from the same group, and it's an
22 MR. LAMBERT: 22 extension of the MRGO channel to the north.
23 Yeah. We're going to give you a 23 MR. LAMBERT:
24 pdf of it because it's too hard to 24 We'll give it to you, as I say,
25 deal with. 25 electronically.
Page 83 Page 85
1 MS. SOJA: 1 MS. SOJA:
2 Oh, okay. 2 And that came from the same
3 MR. LAMBERT: 3 source, the EIS Environmental?
4 So it is a MRGO channel alignment 4 MR. LAMBERT:
5 document, and it's from the ES² 5 Uh-huh.
6 Environmental Services, Inc.? 6 MS. SOJA:
7 MR. BRUNO: 7 Okay.
8 Shea Penland 's group. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 MR. LAMBERT: 9 Q. Okay. I think that's about all we
10 Shea Penland 's group. 10 need to do with this particular exhibit. Much
11 And the yellow is the -- the 11 of the rest of it remains the same.
12 yellow lines, according to the legend, 12 The next number, Exhibit 6, for
13 are the shoreline in 2005, and the 13 completeness -- (Tendering.)
14 green lines are the top of the channel 14 (Exhibit RB 6 was marked for
15 design width. And let me just make 15 identification and is attached hereto.)
16 sure that the record is clear on that 16 A. Thank you.
17 and we can focus on it for a second. 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 MS. SOJA: 18 Q. You're welcome.
19 Is it a satellite map? 19 Do you have a map that has the proper
20 MR. BRUNO: 20 mile markers on it that we could --
21 It's a satellite map over which 21 MR. BRUNO:
22 these things are noted, the mile 22 Skip, one second.
23 markers as well as the survey 23 (Off the record.)
24 stations. 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 THE WITNESS: 25 Q. Let's go back again to Exhibit 3, and
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 86 Page 88
1 go to the channel bottom diagram. 1 A. That's where it actually starts, at
2 (Indicating.) 2 center line Station 0. And it progresses as
3 A. Uh-huh. 3 you go outward.
4 Q. Right here. Plate, looks like 9. And 4 Q. Okay. But what's the mile marker at
5 I'm certain that you're correct because you 5 the satellite station at the intersection of
6 live with this MRGO on a daily basis, but I 6 the MRGO?
7 want you to look at the mile marker at -- is 7 A. 66.
8 this Bayou La Loutre here? 8 Q. 66.
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. What's the mile marker on that 10 Q. And this one is -- oh, is that the
11 diagram? 11 MRGO as it intersects with the inner harbor
12 A. That says 39.01. 12 canal?
13 Q. Okay. And then this one is 39? 13 A. As it turns into the inner harbor
14 (Indicating.) 14 canal, yes, sir.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Well, I'm confused.
16 Q. Okay. So this map -- 16 MR. BRUNO:
17 MR. BRUNO: 17 Yeah. This one says 63.
18 Is that Bayou La Loutre? 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
19 THE WITNESS: 19 Q. This is the other one of the two
20 Yes, sir. 20 satellite documents. This says 66 is here.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 A. Correct.
22 Q. So the exhibit which is the Design 22 Q. Where does it start 66 that you're
23 Memorandum Number 1-B, Exhibit 3, has the same 23 familiar with?
24 mile marker as this document, correct? 24 A. Right up in here, where it's showing
25 A. Yes, it does. 25 roughly near 69 -- not quite, between 68 and
Page 87 Page 89
1 MR. BRUNO: 1 69.
2 What's wrong? 2 Q. So this zero --
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 3 A. I guess if those were tenths it would
4 Q. But you're saying that's wrong. 4 be 68.5, roughly, I guess.
5 A. Correct. 5 Q. And that's where the counting starts,
6 Q. So this exhibit is wrong, too. 6 as best you know.
7 A. This was a design document -- that's 7 A. Correct.
8 correct, yes. I'm not saying this exhibit is 8 Q. All right. So just so we've got this
9 wrong, the mileage may have been correct based 9 on the record here, this, these little survey
10 upon alignment information used here and 10 dots have on them 500, 1000, 1500, and so on.
11 stationing used in this design document. 11 And that must be feet. Or does that make sense
12 Q. Okay. Um -- where do you say Bayou La 12 to you?
13 Loutre is now? 13 A. It looks like they're roughly, as if
14 A. Roughly, just above -- between 36 and 14 they were like tenths of a mile.
15 36 and a half. Around 36.4, just as this 15 MR. BRUNO:
16 design document referred to it here. I think 16 The survey stations.
17 it said 36.43 in Design Document Number, um -- 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
18 in Exhibit RB 5. 18 Q. Survey stations. And it starts at
19 Q. Okay. So these mile markers would 19 zero at this intersection of the inner harbor
20 change, I guess, based on where you started 20 canal and then runs down Reach 1 and then down
21 counting out in the gulf, on the gulf end. 21 Reach 2.
22 A. Actually, the stationing -- the center 22 A. Right. Uh-huh.
23 line stationing for the MRGO project starts up 23 Q. But what you're telling me is that the
24 where it meets at the IHNC. 24 way you understand the mile markers, the mile
25 Q. Okay. 25 marker would be here at 66.
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
Page 90 Page 92
1 A. No. Not zero. Mile 66 would be at 1 the south end where you've showed us, and this
2 Station 0. 2 design memorandum is the same --
3 Q. Okay. Now, where does the 66 come 3 A. Excuse me. Which one are you looking
4 from? 4 at right now, to make sure I'm correct.
5 A. That goes back to post design 5 Q. It's Exhibit Number --
6 memorandum. It goes back to -- that's a 6 A. Are you on 6 now?
7 mile -- if you look at the design -- authorized 7 Q. Number 6, yeah.
8 documents, the project math book for the Corps, 8 A. Okay.
9 Mile 66 is where the MRGO project begins. 9 MR. LANIER:
10 Q. But where is zero. Out in the gulf? 10 Hugh, what's the design memo
11 A. Zero is where Breton Sound and the 11 number?
12 gulf -- or the bar channel begin, near the 12 MR. LAMBERT:
13 Chandeleurs. 13 The design memo number --
14 Q. Okay. So just logically, if zero is 14 MR. BRUNO:
15 near the Chandeleurs, if where zero moved back 15 1-C. Supplement number 1.
16 and forth, then that would make sense that 66 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
17 would move back and forth, right? 17 Q. 1-C. And authorized stone extension.
18 A. If that was the case. But I don't 18 Let's look at those and see if those line up or
19 think that moved -- I don't think it moved that 19 not.
20 much, if you're talking about three miles 20 Are these mile markers on Plate
21 difference, in other words. 21 Number 3?
22 Q. Well, that and channel alignment. 22 A. I'm looking for Plate 3.
23 A. It could be different alignments, yes, 23 Q. That's this one.
24 sir. 24 A. Oh, okay. Yeah. When you have Plate
25 Q. Okay. All right. Why would you guys 25 3, these are mile markers, yes, sir.
Page 91 Page 93
1 count that way? Why wouldn't you start with 1 Q. And let's see if that stone jetty --
2 the mile markers on the inside where the 2 this looks like it's ending between 17 and 18.
3 stations are instead of -- I'm just kidding 3 A. Actually, 18 is the southern
4 with you. 4 alignment -- roughly 18 is the southern
5 Okay, Exhibit Number 3 -- 5 alignment of the south jetty.
6 A. Okay. 6 Q. Okay. And what is it on the design
7 Q. -- appears to be the same as the two 7 memo?
8 large -- 8 A. Well, this shows an existing, then it
9 MS. SOJA: 9 showed one as being authorized. I'm sorry. I
10 Plate 9? 10 say I believe the actual south jetty stops at
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 15. I'm not sure offhand.
12 Yeah. Plate 9. 12 Q. Okay.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 13 A. And this one here shows it going just
14 Q. Seems to be the same. And the reason 14 past Mile 15, around Mile 14.8.
15 I'm saying that is because of where Breton 15 Q. Okay. Now, I'm trying to get that
16 Sound is -- I mean Bayou La Loutre. They seem 16 associated with this, if I can, that meaning
17 to be the same, correct? 39? 17 that design memorandum having to do with the
18 A. As far as those maps, yes. 18 stone jetty.
19 Q. Uh-huh. Is this the -- this is the 19 Does it show a channel between 20 and
20 Design Memorandum, 1966 -- when was this 20 21?
21 thing -- when was the MRGO being dug? 21 A. It's on a previous sheet. Let's see.
22 A. The MRGO was being dug in the -- I 22 I don't see really a navigation map on this
23 don't recall exactly, the mid-late fifties. 23 thing here.
24 Q. And this design memorandum has to do 24 Q. Do you have station markers on that as
25 with putting the stone retention dikes down on 25 opposed to mile markers?
24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 94 Page 96
1 A. This here? 1 markers.
2 Q. Uh-huh. 2 A. That's correct.
3 A. There's a station on here at the end 3 Q. And the stations would be used more by
4 of the north jetty, but I cannot make it out. 4 the contractor, by the construction end of
5 Q. Okay. And that station would be off 5 things, maintenance end of things.
6 of the -- with zero being in back of that same 6 A. That's correct, for measuring work
7 intersection, as best you know? 7 along the channel, yes.
8 A. The station marker would go all the 8 Q. Okay. Good. All right. So you
9 way back to where the MRGO begins at the IHNC. 9 fellows are going to use the station numbers
10 Q. And just so we've got the alphabet 10 versus mile markers in terms of your work.
11 straight, the station markers start here, 11 A. On all of our plans, we give them
12 correct? 12 both.
13 A. Correct. 13 Q. Okay.
14 Q. Okay. So -- and the station markers 14 A. We give them stations as well as also
15 are -- how are those arrived at; in other 15 mile markers.
16 words, are those GPS stations? 16 Q. Okay. Good. Good.
17 A. No, basically, once you develop an 17 Now, you have Number 6 there, is that
18 alignment for a channel, you know, there as 18 right?
19 programs that we would use -- that you could 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 use, as well as also, um -- you know, basic, 20 Q. And that is the January 1966 document?
21 you know, surveying, and trigonometry to 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 measure distances along center lines as well as 22 Q. Okay. Now, if you'll take a look at
23 tangent distances between curves, so you had a 23 Page 2 again, on Page 2, shoaling history --
24 starting point that was Station 0, and you'd 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 progress from there on out -- 25 Q. -- paragraph B like in boy --
Page 95 Page 97
1 Q. I understand. 1 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir.
2 A. -- to your end point. 2 Q. -- and it talks about maintenance
3 Q. And so just for simplification, we 3 dredging. Would you begin reading in that
4 have some differences here in these mile 4 paragraph, please? I'll stop you when --
5 markers. They start from in the Chandeleurs, 5 A. Based on maintenance dredging
6 and they work their way into 66, or in the 6 performed to date, the highest shoaling rate
7 channel as it comes in the area of the 7 has occurred in Breton Sound extending several
8 Intracoastal harbor -- or the inner 8 miles beyond the outer end of the existing
9 navigational harbor. 9 dikes at Mile 20.2. The shoaling rates for the
10 A. Inner Harbor Navigational Canal, 10 first and second maintenance dredging averaged
11 correct. 11 755,000 and 982,000 cubic yards per year per
12 Q. And then the station markers, they 12 mile, respectively, for the reach from Mile
13 start at the Inner Harbor Navigational Canal 13 20.2 to Mile 14.9. The latter rate is 3.6
14 and they go the other way. 14 times higher than the average minimum rate
15 A. Uh-huh. 15 estimated in the general design memorandum.
16 Q. So basically, station markers go from 16 The third maintenance dredging in this reach
17 0 to whatever they go to, running towards the 17 now in progress has not advanced sufficiently
18 gulf, and mile markers go the other way. 18 to determine a comparative shoaling rate.
19 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. You can stop. So this thing --
20 Q. Okay. Now the mile markers are used 20 so basically, this paragraph says that there's
21 for what, the dredging or for ships? 21 3.6 times more shoaling in this area than was
22 A. The mile markers, for the most part 22 predicted.
23 are reference points for navigation interests. 23 A. Than was estimated in the GDM. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. So in other words, a ship will 24 Q. General design memorandum.
25 be able to describe its location based on mile 25 A. Correct.
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 98 Page 100
1 Q. Okay. And shoaling, for the record, 1 Yeah. I understand.
2 is the depositing of materials in the channel 2 A. Yes.
3 from the surrounding area? 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
4 A. It could be as a result of ship 4 Q. But the Corps made the determination
5 traffic or from wave wash, et cetera, yes. 5 that because of this excessive shoaling going
6 Q. Okay. Now, if you'd turn to the 6 on down there we're going to put in some
7 second tab on that exhibit, please. 7 jetties.
8 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 8 A. Or extend existing jetties.
9 Q. And describe for me what this is. 9 Q. Okay. They're going to do some jetty
10 A. These are typical sections of the 10 work.
11 stone -- these are the jetties is what they 11 A. Correct.
12 are. 12 Q. And the jetty work is pictured in
13 Q. Okay. Next page. 13 these diagrams, and it included making a rock
14 A. Or they're referred to as the stone 14 structure to reduce the shoaling from wave
15 retention dike extension. 15 wash, ship traffic, whatever.
16 Q. Okay. And so basically, what you did 16 A. Correct.
17 down in this area, and just so the record is 17 Q. And that was to reduce the amount of
18 clear we're going to identify it, we're not 18 maintenance dredging that had to be done down
19 going to use mile markers because there may be 19 in that area, correct?
20 some issue as to the mile marker, but we can 20 A. In this -- in a particular reach, yes,
21 surely identify it on the picture. 21 sir.
22 Where is this area that we're talking? 22 Q. Let me show you a document which I'm
23 A. Well -- 23 going to mark for identification as Exhibit
24 Q. The jetties. 24 Number 7. (Tendering.)
25 A. See, this is a Phase I and Phase 2. 25 Now, there may be other areas in here
Page 99 Page 101
1 The jetties -- the north jetty and south jetty 1 where there's comments about the MRGO and then
2 both begin right up in here. 2 the maintenance dredging and so on, and we'll
3 Q. Uh-huh. 3 probably get to some of them later, but this is
4 A. The north jetty goes a little beyond 4 entitled Mississippi River Gulf Outlet
5 the remnants of Gardener Island, and the south 5 Reevaluation Study, 1999.
6 jetty progresses further on out. 6 Do you remember this meeting, this
7 Q. I understand. Now, who built those? 7 discussion? Let's just say discussion.
8 A. They were constructed by the Corps. 8 (Exhibit RB 7 was marked for
9 Q. Okay. And was that your department? 9 identification and is attached hereto.)
10 A. No, sir. 10 A. This discussion?
11 Q. What department was that? 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
12 A. Back then I'm not sure offhand. It 12 Q. All right. Let me do that question
13 used to be handled by our general engineering 13 again. Bad question.
14 branch. I'm not sure if they were in charge of 14 Around 1999, how long had you been
15 that back at that time. I'm not sure. 15 with the Corps? Since '80, right?
16 MS. SOJA: 16 A. Full-time since '80, yes, sir.
17 To clarify your last question 17 Q. Twenty years-ish.
18 when you said the Corps, do you mean 18 A. I've got 31 years now.
19 the Corps or the contractors for the 19 Q. 31. There you go. So you started in
20 Corps? 20 '76 --
21 THE WITNESS: 21 A. 31 in May.
22 Well, they were built by a 22 Q. -- as a full-time student in 1980.
23 contractor for the Corps. A Corps 23 Now, we're in 1999 and you've been piddling
24 contractor. 24 around with this MRGO the whole time, right?
25 MR. LAMBERT: 25 A. No, sir.
26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 102 Page 104
1 Q. No? 1 A. I was with the Corps, yes, sir.
2 A. Not the whole time, no, sir. 2 Q. Okay. And my general question is,
3 Q. Okay. When were you not doing work 3 nine years plus or minus after you were
4 with the MRGO? 4 assigned to the MRGO, maintenance dredging and
5 A. I did some minor work as a student for 5 so on, this memorandum was written, and I'm
6 some other engineers working on -- doing some 6 sure that you were familiar with these issues.
7 programming for them while I was a student. 7 Correct?
8 When I came on board as a full-time employee 8 A. I was familiar with the issues of
9 here I was assigned other waterways. 9 maintenance dredging of the channel, yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. 10 Q. Okay. And you were familiar with the
11 A. Sometime in the early nineties is when 11 fact that there had been significant loss of
12 you might say when we had a little reorg in my 12 wetland along the channel and the width of the
13 own office and when another gentleman left the 13 water area was significantly greater than when
14 office, and I kind of like then was reassigned 14 the project was first constructed.
15 the MRGO project and some other projects. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So the nineties. 16 Q. Okay. Now, as far as the
17 A. Early nineties, yes, sir. 17 vulnerability to hurricanes and storm surges,
18 Q. So nine years or so when this 18 do you have any knowledge of that?
19 reevaluation study came out. 19 A. That's something that would have to be
20 A. A little before that, yes, sir. 20 addressed by our hydraulics personnel.
21 Correct. 21 Q. Okay. You'd clearly heard -- where do
22 Q. Okay. And it says, on Page 3 -- 22 you live?
23 starting at the top, but if you'd read, please, 23 A. I live in Metairie, Louisiana. In
24 I'd appreciate it. 24 Jefferson Parish.
25 A. At the very top? 25 Q. Okay. You clearly heard raised issues
Page 103 Page 105
1 Q. Yeah. 1 not only here at the Corps but in general about
2 A. Since the project was substantially 2 hurricane surges and so on, correct?
3 completed conditions have changed 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 significantly. There's been significant loss 4 Q. Okay. Now, you know the channel width
5 of wetlands along the channel and the width of 5 was significantly wider than it was originally
6 the water area is significantly greater than 6 designed, meaning the top of the MRGO, the
7 when the project was first constructed. The 7 surface. Correct?
8 vulnerability of the area to hurricane surges 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 can also be easily demonstrated as evidenced by 9 Q. The original drawings I've seen were
10 Hurricane Betsy. More recent storms such as 10 500 feet wide, 40 feet deep with a 2 to 1, so
11 Hurricane Georges have played havoc with 11 where does that get us as far as the top width
12 keeping the deep draft channel functional. The 12 goes?
13 loss of the channel after tropical storms and 13 A. Well, you're 80 feet on each side from
14 hurricanes has called into question the 14 outside that. So in other words, you have
15 reliability of the channel even though there 15 160 feet. So 660 feet, basically, at elevation
16 are several decades of fairly reliable use. 16 zero.
17 Q. Okay. Now, by the way, just off the 17 Q. 660 feet at elevation zero. So just
18 elevator on the second floor is a flag that 18 based on the quick math that you did in your
19 says it was flown over here during Hurricane 19 head, you know that the original design, based
20 Georges. 20 on the depth of the channel and the width of
21 A. Uh-huh. That's correct. 21 the authorized channel, the top of the channel
22 Q. Hold on a minute. Let me consult 22 is supposed to be 660 feet, plus or minus,
23 here. 23 wide, correct?
24 And I take it you were here at that 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 time. 25 Q. Now, do you agree with me that it is a
27 (Pages 102 to 105)

Page 106 Page 108
1 goal of the Corps of Engineers to try and have 1 not one of our official terms, no, sir. I'm in
2 their projects be within the specifications of 2 the waterways section, civil branch, yes, sir.
3 the design? 3 Q. Okay. And you know about, um -- it
4 A. I'm just trying to figure out how to 4 says that you may have been described as a
5 answer that question for you right now. 5 design engineer in waterways.
6 Q. Well, start with the simple answer. 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 A. I mean, yes. We do try to -- we do 7 Q. Okay. All right. And is it fair to
8 try to go ahead and maintain projects, 8 say that within your knowledges as an engineer
9 construct projects to within, as best we can, 9 that you know that the kinds of foreshore
10 tolerances to the desired goal, yes. 10 protection or whatever you want to call it can
11 Q. Okay. Now, I saw in your deposition 11 be used to reduce and/or prevent erosion?
12 that you mentioned that there was a different 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 department that was responsible for 13 Q. Okay. That technology is there.
14 foreshoring, or channel -- what would you call 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 it, channel protection? 15 Q. Okay. Now, was there a discussion --
16 A. It could be stabilization, it could be 16 and you can turn to Page 3. In 1999, and
17 armoring, it could be foreshore protection. 17 that's after you've been there for nine years,
18 Q. I'm talking about something like a 18 was there any discussions about foreshoring as
19 rock jetty -- 19 an alternative plan for development, screening
20 A. Uh-huh. 20 and evaluation at that time?
21 Q. -- but actually something more like 21 A. Under the reevaluation study?
22 a -- using riprap along channels -- 22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. Foreshore dikes. 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Foreshore dikes. There you go. Where 24 Q. Okay. And without beating a dead
25 the water is not -- it's not intended to 25 horse, of course I'll probably beat it anyway,
Page 107 Page 109
1 contain the water, it's intended to prevent the 1 but the reason it wasn't done was what? Why --
2 erosion from occurring. 2 and it's not in that document anywhere. I'm
3 A. Yes. 3 just asking you. Why didn't the Corps prevent
4 Q. You're familiar with that. 4 erosion along the MRGO by using the technology
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 that was available to the Corps?
6 Q. And those are foreshore dikes. 6 MS. SOJA:
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Can you clarify what time frame
8 Q. Does the Corps of Engineers know how 8 you're talking about?
9 to build those? 9 MR. LAMBERT:
10 A. Yes. 10 Post 1990. I'm sure the
11 Q. And does the Corps of Engineers use 11 problems --
12 those to prevent erosion? 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 A. We have used -- we've used them in 13 Q. The problems arose before 1990. Do
14 spots on the MRGO, yes, sir. 14 you know of another memo -- wait. I do. Let
15 Q. Not just the MRGO, but I mean the 15 me show you this one.
16 fly -- you know, the Mississippi River. Those 16 MR. LAMBERT:
17 are used all over the place, aren't they? 17 Wait, thank you. You're helping
18 A. There's -- there's -- there's channel 18 me. Just one second.
19 protection, there's revetment, there's 19 MS. SOJA:
20 foreshore dikes, yes, sir. 20 I not sure I wanted to do that.
21 Q. Okay. And you, I think, described 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 yourself -- or someone else described you as a 22 Q. Now we're getting into the heavy
23 channel engineer, waterway engineer. Is that 23 artillery here. (Tendering.)
24 the term? 24 MS. SOJA:
25 A. I don't know. We don't have -- that's 25 Great.
28 (Pages 106 to 109)

Page 110 Page 112
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 Q. Okay. It says, a packet containing
2 Q. This document is entitled Bank 2 copies of the comments on the reconnaissance
3 Erosion, February, 1988. So that's eleven 3 report and a copy of the current GDM schedule
4 years before the exhibit I just showed you that 4 was distributed. A copy is attached as
5 we've marked as Exhibit 7. 5 inclusion in NCL Number 3. Okay. And then it
6 MS. SOJA: 6 goes on to outline issues that were discussed
7 This will be 8? 7 at the meeting.
8 MR. LAMBERT: 8 Now, I take it you were or were not at
9 This will be 8. 9 this meeting? And there's a page in here
10 (Exhibit RB 8 was marked for 10 that's got a bunch of people's names on it, and
11 identification and is attached hereto.) 11 I'm looking through it to see if you were
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 12 there.
13 Q. Now, this is a big document, meaning 13 A. To my knowledge, I was not there.
14 in size. And I'm going to ask you to turn 14 Now, whether --
15 to -- we'll, now, first of all, let's just 15 Q. All right.
16 start at the beginning of this thing a little 16 A. No, sir.
17 bit. 17 Q. Okay. Now, turn to this page.
18 Have you ever seen it before? 18 (Indicating.) Which is Page 1.
19 A. Um -- I have seen the report, and I 19 A. In which exhibit?
20 think I even turned over a copy in the 20 Q. The new one.
21 repository. But like I said, this was before 21 A. Oh, the new one.
22 the time I was assigned to the MRGO in my 22 MS. SOJA:
23 office, in other words, but. 23 8.
24 Q. This is about two years before. 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
25 A. Well, probably about three. More or 25 Q. Exhibit 8.
Page 111 Page 113
1 less closer to three, probably, yes, sir. 1 A. What page are you on? I'm sorry.
2 Q. Well, we won't spend much time on it 2 Q. It's the Page 1. It's got an arrow
3 then. But let's flip through a couple of 3 right here.
4 things that you probably went back and 4 A. Page 1. Okay.
5 reviewed. First of all, this memorandum, in 5 Q. Got it?
6 the front of the thing that starts on the third 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 page dated November 30th, 1988, what is 7 Q. Okay. Now, above the arrow there's a
8 CELMN-ED-SP up at the top left-hand corner of 8 Paragraph C. Would you please read that.
9 the page? 9 A. Oh. Paragraph C. Okay. The loss of
10 A. That's a symbol for our, um -- it's an 10 the buffering marshes will reduce the erodible
11 office symbol. CE, Corps of Engineers, Lower 11 material that contributes to the maintenance
12 Mississippi New Orleans, the ED is for 12 dredging. However, maintenance dredging
13 engineering division, and the SP was an office 13 requirements are projected to increase
14 symbol for our projects engineering section. 14 significantly with the loss of these marshes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, there's some handwritten 15 The rationale for this increase is inadequate.
16 comments on here, in addition to the other 16 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you to skip
17 comments. These comments look -- it says that 17 down to Paragraph Number 2 where the arrow is
18 subject is Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, bank 18 and start reading, in addition to solving --
19 erosion, GDM -- general design maintenance? 19 start reading at that point, please.
20 A. General design memorandum. 20 A. In addition the solving the
21 Q. Memorandum. Okay. And then it says 21 aforementioned problems, it will also reduce
22 there's a conference on November the 18th. 22 the possibility of catastrophic damage to urban
23 This is written on the 30th. So I imagine 23 areas by hurricane surge coming up this
24 these comments were based on that conference. 24 waterway and also greatly reduce the need to
25 A. That's what I would presume, yes, sir. 25 operate and could possibly eliminate the
29 (Pages 110 to 113)

Page 114 Page 116
1 control structures at Bayous Dupre and 1 Q. Now, based on what I've looked at, and
2 Bienvenu. Furthermore, the salinity level in 2 we're going to look at some of those plans,
3 Lake Pontchartrain will be reduced, which, 3 fully lining both sides of the MRGO with rock
4 according to some parties, will be a great 4 jetties, much in the same way that -- well,
5 benefit. Plus, by making this closure the 5 that's expensive.
6 problems/concerns addressed by April, 1984 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 feasibility study entitled Mississippi and 7 Q. Okay. And it's expensive to do in the
8 Louisiana Estuarine Areas will be substantially 8 first place, but it's known that it will
9 reduced. 9 control the erosion, correct?
10 Q. Okay. Now, this is an alternative 10 A. It will assist in controlling erosion,
11 plan discussed in 1988, and I should have had 11 yes, sir.
12 you read the first sentence in that alternative 12 Q. Okay. And so what you could do is
13 plan. It says, the alternative to completely 13 actually maintain the waterway at this 680,
14 close the MRGO waterway would be to evaluate -- 14 700-foot water, plus or minus, width at the
15 go ahead and read that first sentence. 15 top, and the 500 width at the bottom at the
16 A. The alternative to completely close 16 prescribed depths which is 36 feet, plus 2 --
17 the MRGO waterway should be evaluated and a 17 if you had a way to keep the silt and stuff
18 discussion of the evaluation should be included 18 from coming back in it based on erosion and
19 in the report. The closure should be located 19 wave wash and so on, right?
20 in the vicinity of Mile 23 and could be 20 A. It would assist in the reduction of
21 constructed of dredge material from the 21 your maintenance dredging, yes, sir.
22 existing waterway. This alternative will 22 Q. Okay. Now, so that's one alternative.
23 control all future maintenance problems by 23 Now, the other alternative discussed way back
24 controlling bank erosion, preventing the 24 in 1966 is if you didn't want to spend the
25 associated biological resources problems, 25 money, you meaning -- if the Corps, for any
Page 115 Page 117
1 preventing saltwater intrusion and lessening 1 reason, couldn't get funding or whatever,
2 the recreational losses. 2 didn't want to spend the money, they could
3 Q. Okay. And then it goes on, and let's 3 close it, as suggested in 1988, right?
4 go ahead and read it again. 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 A. In addition to solving the 5 Q. Okay. And that is the cheap fix, so
6 aforementioned problems, it will also reduce 6 to speak, in terms of solving these problems
7 the possibility of catastrophic damage to urban 7 mentioned in Exhibit Number 8, Paragraph 2,
8 areas by a hurricane surge coming up this 8 correct?
9 waterway and also greatly reduce the need to 9 A. That's somebody's cheap fix, yes.
10 operate and could possibly eliminate the 10 Q. Okay. And it's suggested that in this
11 control structures at Bayous Dupre and 11 fix that by closing the MRGO, um -- you're
12 Bienvenu. 12 going to prevent all these problems with
13 Q. Okay. Now, this is an alternative 13 saltwater intrusion and marsh and surge and all
14 discussed in 1988, which is twenty years before 14 that stuff, right?
15 now, which included closing this MRGO, correct? 15 A. That's what this report says here,
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 yes.
17 Q. Okay. At beginning of this series of 17 Q. Okay. Where are you closing the MRGO?
18 questions I asked you, do you know as a 18 A. We're closing the MRGO just downstream
19 waterway engineer that the Corps of Engineers 19 of Bayou La Loutre.
20 in general, and you in particular, have the 20 Q. Where does this suggest that it be
21 knowledge to do bank stabilization, I guess 21 done?
22 you'd call it, meaning rocks and so on -- 22 A. It's at Mile 23.
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. What's the difference?
24 Q. -- to prevent erosion, correct? 24 A. Bayou La Loutre, the area where the
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 closure is being proposed right now to be
30 (Pages 114 to 117)

Page 118 Page 120
1 constructed is near the Bayou La Loutre ridge 1 sometime in 1988, yes, sir.
2 which is probably, from a geologic standpoint, 2 Q. Okay. Now, look at the next page, or
3 one of the more stable areas along the entire 3 two pages later, Page 3, Tab 7 -- I'm sorry.
4 MRGO. 4 Paragraph 9. Would you read that, please.
5 Q. I saw that. That's where the earth is 5 A. The average annual maintenance
6 higher. 6 dredging cost for the without project
7 A. Well -- 7 conditions should be $2,591,000, not $2,724,000
8 Q. The land is higher. 8 as presented in the report on Table 7. This
9 A. Well, the land is higher -- that's an 9 changes the savings in average annual
10 old disposal bank on the south side. 10 maintenance dredging costs for each of the four
11 Q. And it's a ridge. 11 scenarios presented on Table 7. The total
12 A. It's just downstream of the remnants 12 average annual benefits for Scenario 1 on Table
13 of the ridge, yes, sir. 13 12 becomes $2,095,000, not $2,228,000, with a
14 Q. How far is that from where this 14 benefit cost ratio of 1.04 to 1 for Design 3.
15 proposal was? 15 Design 4 drops below unity.
16 A. Thirteen miles. 16 Q. Okay. Now, these different designs,
17 Q. Okay. All right. And the closure is 17 if you keep going where this report, it says,
18 intended to accomplish these same sort of 18 bank protection structure, and it's got Design
19 things, correct? 19 1, Design 2, Design 3, and Design 4. You see
20 A. The closure is intended to reduce 20 those?
21 salinity. 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Insofar as you know, it's also 22 Q. And if we go to -- what table was it,
23 to, um -- let the marshes catch up, by reducing 23 7? Do you see the Table 7 in there anywhere?
24 salinity? 24 A. I see Table 7, yes, sir. Table 7 on
25 A. Then again, that's more for a 25 Page 44.
Page 119 Page 121
1 biologist or botanist to address that for you. 1 Q. Okay. Good. Okay. Now, these
2 Because you're still open to Lake Borgne, so 2 different scenarios, are they outlined in here?
3 that's a biologist or botanist has to answer 3 I think that Page 30, it says no action, and
4 that question for you there. 4 then 31 is structural bank protection north
5 Q. Okay. I understand. All right. But 5 bank disposal area operations.
6 let's put it this way: Do you have a paragraph 6 Oh, I think 35. That might be the
7 that you've written somewhere or that somebody 7 key.
8 has written somewhere that says why it is that 8 MS. SOJA:
9 the closure of the MRGO is going to occur? 9 Page 35?
10 A. Why it's going to occur? 10 MR. LAMBERT:
11 Q. I mean, what is expected to be 11 Uh-huh.
12 accomplished? 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
13 A. You mean accomplished as a result of 13 Q. You know what? This is all too
14 the closure? 14 complicated. Let's skip on forward.
15 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. Yeah.
16 A. That would be in the deep draft 16 Q. I hear you. Let's put it this way:
17 deauthorization study that was done following 17 It's pretty easy to see that there was some
18 Hurricane Katrina. 18 consideration being given to rock structures to
19 Q. Okay. I understand. Okay. So let's 19 prevent bank erosion, correct?
20 go back to 1988 just for a minute. Is it fair 20 A. Correct.
21 to say that this proposal on Page 1 of 21 Q. In some different reaches or areas or
22 Exhibit 8, Paragraph 2, Alternative Plans, is a 22 whatever.
23 discussion of closing the MRGO twenty years 23 A. Correct.
24 ago? 24 Q. And there was also a report having to
25 A. It does discuss closing MRGO back 25 do with -- I'm sorry -- a consideration having
31 (Pages 118 to 121)

Page 122 Page 124
1 to do with closing, correct? 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 A. Correct. 2 Q. And the next plate is 4, and that's
3 Q. Okay. Now, let me just show you one 3 north bank 60 to 27. And then the south bank
4 more here. (Tendering.) Exhibit 9. Let me 4 27 to 23.
5 put a sticker on that so we don't get lost. 5 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir.
6 (Exhibit RB 9 was marked for 6 Q. All right. So that's one side, right?
7 identification and is attached hereto.) 7 Just in general, one side of it? Then next
8 A. Okay. 8 option, 3, goes to the next plate.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 9 A. One side? Excuse me. One side? What
10 Q. Okay. Now, this is 1994. You've been 10 do you mean?
11 there four years now, and this report 11 Q. North side?
12 entitled -- let me clarify my question. This 12 A. Well, north side down to Mile 27, and
13 Exhibit Number 9 entitled Mississippi River 13 south side from 27 to 23, yes.
14 Gulf Outlet St. Bernard Parish Louisiana, Bank 14 Q. Right. Exactly.
15 Erosion Reconnaissance Report. 15 A. Correct.
16 Have you seen this before? 16 Q. And Option 3 is, as it states, north
17 A. Um -- vaguely, yes, sir. Yes. 17 bank from 60 to 23 and then it leaves a little
18 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back here to Page 18 part out because it's already done, and then
19 Number 38. This one is a little better 19 south bank 47 to 23. You see that?
20 organized. You must have had something to do 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 with this. This one says -- 21 Q. Okay. And then Option 4, Plate 6,
22 A. Not as much as you may think. 22 which shows -- doesn't include the south bank,
23 Q. This one says, Option 1: Critical 23 it's 27 to 23, and then it shows at what plate,
24 reaches. Option 2: And it shows north bank 60 24 which is down there in the bottom.
25 to 27, south bank 27 to 23, Plate 4. Option 3: 25 Then the next page, Design 1, Design
Page 123 Page 125
1 All unlevied reaches of the MRGO. Plate 5. 1 2, Design 3, Design 4 and Design 5. These are
2 Option 4: Mile 60 to 27. 2 all bank protection structures.
3 Do you see that? 3 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And I guess these just have to do with
5 Q. Okay. So this is talking about -- and 5 what? Better question: What do these --
6 if you'll drop back here to Plate -- and I 6 what's the difference between -- in other
7 can't read mine -- but this one -- 7 words, do you use different ones of these in
8 A. Okay. 8 different places depending on the conditions?
9 MS. SOJA: 9 A. It could be based upon geotech
10 What is its title? 10 conditions, for example, it could be based
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 upon --
12 It's, um -- it's a plate, and 12 Q. Cost?
13 it's around -- it's about the fourth 13 A. Cost is another issue there, also,
14 one. 14 yes. Some of them include a shell core with an
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 15 armor stone layer on the channel side, some of
16 Q. Well, let's just start with Plate 1. 16 them were just like on Design 3 is strictly
17 A. Okay. 17 100 percent armor stone structure.
18 Q. And that one says, study area, you 18 Q. Okay.
19 see, and it shows the whole -- it shows from 60 19 A. Um -- and some of them also have
20 down to 20. 20 berms, and the berm widths on some of them they
21 A. Yes. 21 vary, like 6 feet to ten feet on some of them.
22 Q. Okay. And then Plate 2 probably 22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 deals -- no, they're not going to make it easy 23 A. And I think all of them, for the most
24 for us. It says -- 3 is critical reaches. And 24 part, from what I can see, show dredge material
25 it's got those kind of outlined. You see them? 25 placed behind the foreshore structures.
32 (Pages 122 to 125)

Page 126 Page 128
1 Q. Let me show you a document which I'm 1 contacting the rock jetties on the north and
2 going to mark for identification as Number 10. 2 south side behind the vessel, right?
3 And I'm sure you recognize this one. 3 A. Correct.
4 (Exhibit RB 10 was marked for 4 Q. And that's wave wash by a vessel,
5 identification and is attached hereto.) 5 correct?
6 A. Very well. 6 A. Correct.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 7 Q. That's predictable, isn't it?
8 Q. And that's just the first web page of 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 your Corps of Engineers MRGO on the Internet, 9 Q. And in terms of big vessels, it's
10 right? 10 significant, isn't it?
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, let's look at this thing a little 12 Q. And there were even discussions about
13 more carefully. That's a deep draft vessel, 13 limiting the speed of vessels because if you
14 correct? 14 slowed them from 14 knots, which is their
15 A. Correct. 15 regular speed, down to 10 knots, you could
16 Q. Container ship. 16 reduce this, correct?
17 A. Yes. 17 A. I'm not sure of what knots they
18 Q. And it's coming down the MRGO, and I 18 normally travel, but you can reduce the wake.
19 don't know what part but clearly there's some 19 Q. By slowing down.
20 marsh land to the south, so it could be maybe 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 at the Lake Borgne portions, or the Lake Borgne 21 Q. And that's never been done, right? To
22 south side or somewhere along there, correct? 22 your knowledge.
23 A. Yeah. Actually, on the left side is 23 A. I'm not sure. I think there may be
24 the south side, and on the right-hand side 24 some spots on MRGO that may have some.
25 there is the north side. 25 Q. Speed limits?
Page 127 Page 129
1 Q. Oh, okay. So this one is headed 1 A. Speed alignment signs. I'm not sure.
2 towards the gulf. 2 Q. Well, now if you know that, can you
3 A. He's headed towards the gulf, yes, 3 get those for us? Because my -- all this stuff
4 sir. 4 I've been reading says that that's never been
5 Q. Okay. And do you know where along the 5 limited.
6 way this vessel is from a north-south 6 A. I think there may be one just
7 standpoint? 7 downstream of Bayou La Loutre in the Hopedale
8 A. I could show on your map, if you'd 8 area. I'm not sure.
9 like. 9 Q. Is that a Coast Guard issue?
10 Q. I'd like that. 10 A. You have to ask the Coast Guard. Yes,
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 sir.
12 Q. Do you want me to help you hold it up? 12 Q. Now, do you know that the waves
13 Let me do that. 13 created by deep draft vessels have actually
14 A. He's in this little area up in here. 14 affected small fishing boats on the MRGO?
15 For the most part up in here. Around this 15 Stability. Tipped them over.
16 mileage up in here. 16 A. Oh, I don't know if they tip them
17 Q. Okay. So there are jetties there. 17 over, no, sir. I'm sure they have an affect on
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 them from a stability standpoint, yes, sir.
19 Q. Okay. Good. Rock jetties, correct? 19 Q. Okay. Now, it's clear that the wake
20 A. That's correct. Yes, sir. 20 of this vessel is something that without rock
21 Q. So what we see here in the wave wash 21 jetties can certainly erode the marshes,
22 on each side of the MRGO are the waves created 22 correct?
23 by the deep draft vessel 's wake. Correct? 23 A. Yes.
24 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And along this section, at least --
25 Q. And what they're doing is they're 25 and I'm going to ask you to take this black pen
33 (Pages 126 to 129)

Page 130 Page 132
1 just so we've got everything straight here -- I 1 you're seeing here in terms of the marsh,
2 want you to circle the two wave washes created 2 meaning the spoil either pumped up there from
3 by this deep draft shelf. And then label those 3 dredging or preexisting, that it would be a
4 wake. 4 straight line just like it is down here?
5 A. (Witness complies.) 5 MS. SOJA:
6 Q. Now, it looks like that these rock 6 I'll object to the hypothetical
7 jetties are helping maintain the width of this 7 because he's a fact witness.
8 channel. Is that fair? 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 A. Correct. 9 Q. Subject to the objection. Just based
10 Q. And that's what they are intended to 10 on your experience.
11 do, correct? 11 A. What you're seeing -- what you pointed
12 A. That's correct. 12 out to in the 55 reach and above, there
13 Q. And if we go to the map again in that 13 actually is a rock foreshore dike there.
14 area that you just pointed out this vessel is 14 Q. Okay. Where is it?
15 traveling in, it looks like that the marsh land 15 A. It's built right along the edge of
16 is basically, as it appears in the photograph, 16 that water.
17 right up to the edge of the jetty. 17 Q. Here?
18 A. That's correct. 18 A. No. On the south bank.
19 Q. So in this photograph it seems clear 19 Q. Oh, I see it.
20 that this yellow line, which controls the 20 A. It's on the south bank there. It
21 erosion in this section, and that's Mile Post, 21 fronts the entire hurricane protection levee.
22 on this map, 23 to 26, and I'd say 24 to 25 are 22 Q. That's this right back here.
23 right in the middle of it, that that is a 23 A. No, sir. That's the levee there.
24 demonstration -- a clear demonstration, 24 There's a rock foreshore dike along the
25 visually, of how a jetty is going to preserve 25 water 's edge --
Page 131 Page 133
1 the wetlands on the side of it from erosion. 1 Q. I don't see it.
2 Correct? 2 A. -- that follows it.
3 A. The jetty will assist. I will make a 3 Well, your yellow line is probably
4 note that a lot of those wetlands you see there 4 encompassing it. It may be hard to see, but
5 were man created -- manmade from the Corps from 5 there's a rock dike all the way from Mile 60 to
6 dredging disposal. 6 Mile 47.
7 Q. However, the point is whether they 7 Q. All right. Well, let's drop that
8 were man-made or whether they existed there 8 down.
9 before, if you put a jetty there you can 9 A. Well, it ain't going to be your miles,
10 expect -- 10 but --
11 A. I won't argue that. It will protect 11 Q. Just point it out.
12 it, yes, sir. That's correct. 12 A. It goes all the way down from the
13 Q. Yes, sir. Now, let me just 13 other end of the hurricane protection levee --
14 hypothesize, for example. If you had a jetty 14 Q. Uh-huh.
15 drawn right along here, indicating -- well, 15 A. -- up to right around this turn up in
16 let's just go up here -- well, let's drop it 16 here. Around this Mile 62 on this map here.
17 down. Let's get the next one. This is 17 There is rock foreshore that fronts this entire
18 hypothetical, you know, just based on your -- 18 levee, which is this big portion here, this
19 no expert but just on what you know as a fact 19 white portion you see here. That's the crown
20 witness -- 20 of the levee.
21 A. Correct. 21 Q. Is it a straight line?
22 Q. -- the guy that's been working on 22 A. No. It's built to follow the contour
23 this. If you had a jetty along here, in a 23 of the natural bank. And that's been
24 straight line, meaning 55 plus or minus, would 24 maintained like that for some time now.
25 you expect to see something similar to what 25 Q. Okay. And so has that prevented the
34 (Pages 130 to 133)

Page 134 Page 136
1 further erosion? 1 MRGO in the reach which is part of the GIWW,
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 and eighteen miles along the south bank of the
3 Q. Okay. When was it built? 3 MRGO. Foreshore protection along the levee
4 A. Um -- that was -- I don't know 4 reaches of the MRGO as authorized by the August
5 offhand. It was authorized -- I'm not sure. I 5 '69 project modification has been completed.
6 don't know. 6 Q. Okay. Now, here's my question:
7 Q. Approximately. 7 You've explained to me that -- and we'll hold
8 A. I don't know. I would not want -- 8 this up -- that there are rocks along this
9 Q. Before you got there? 9 jagged line on the south side.
10 A. Before I took over the MRGO? Yes, 10 A. Correct.
11 sir. 11 Q. I take it no rocks on the north side.
12 Q. Okay. Now, the position of where that 12 A. There are rocks on the north side,
13 rock jetty was placed, in other words, it's 13 yes, sir.
14 location relative to the center line -- 14 Q. In this section.
15 A. Let me just clarify something. 15 A. In that particular area there, yes,
16 Q. Sure. 16 sir.
17 A. Where we're talking about right now is 17 Q. Okay. But --
18 a foreshore dike -- just for record purposes, 18 A. They come a little further on down.
19 this is foreshore dike on the inside. The 19 Q. But what about up in here?
20 jetties are on the outside. 20 A. Um -- no, sir.
21 Q. I understand. 21 Q. Okay. So there's a section in here
22 A. Okay. 22 about where I'm putting my fingers where
23 Q. The foreshore dike that you're 23 there's rock jetty and then there's a
24 discussing -- 24 passageway in here, into Lake Borgne.
25 A. Right. 25 A. Correct.
Page 135 Page 137
1 Q. -- where do I find a document that 1 Q. And on the south side, this south
2 shows its design authorization? 2 edge, you're telling me, somewhere -- where
3 A. I personally don't know, because like 3 does it end?
4 I say, that was handled by another office here 4 A. It goes all the way down to the lower
5 at the district. As far as design document, I 5 portion of the hurricane protection levee down
6 don't know personally, um -- the documents for 6 here.
7 the construction as well as maintenance were 7 Q. Okay. Down to here. There's rocks
8 handled by another office here at the district 8 along the south side of that.
9 prior to Katrina. 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. 10 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you, this green
11 A. After Katrina -- after Katrina, my 11 line, just for the purposes of my question,
12 office, you know, inherited, you might say, the 12 just assume that that is the top of the design
13 foreshore work on the MRGO project. 13 width of the levee.
14 Q. Okay. 94, Page 9. Would you take a 14 A. Okay.
15 look at that, please? 15 Q. Okay? I take it that these rocks
16 A. Where at? 16 don't go to the design width of the levee.
17 Q. The third paragraph. 17 A. No, sir.
18 A. The project was modified in August, 18 Q. They're just put wherever the levee
19 1969 under the discretionary authority of the 19 was back in 1969?
20 chief of engineers. The project modification 20 A. Not the levee. The levee --
21 provided for as a mitigation measure protecting 21 Q. Wait. Scratch that. Let me do it
22 a portion of the foreshore line between the 22 again.
23 Lake Pontchartrain & Vicinity Hurricane 23 The rocks were put in wherever the
24 Protection Project Levees and the MRGO. This 24 channel was when they were -- when they,
25 included six miles along the north bank of the 25 meaning the rocks, as foreshore protection were
35 (Pages 134 to 137)

Page 138 Page 140
1 authorized? 1 what do I ask your counsel to look for, to
2 A. The rocks -- like I said earlier, we 2 determine where the authorization for putting
3 had nothing to do with the foreshore work on 3 this wobbly line on the south side of the
4 the MRGO until after Katrina. My office. 4 MRGO -- wobbly line of rock on the south side
5 Okay? 5 of the MRGO? Where is that going to be?
6 Q. I understand. 6 A. The authorization?
7 A. So I don't know exactly what was used 7 Q. Yeah.
8 as the basis for the location of the rocks 8 A. Like I said, I don't have any
9 originally put there. It may have been a 9 documents. It would be -- the general design
10 certain contour, it may have been just 10 document --
11 immediately adjacent to the existing bank line. 11 Q. Uh-huh.
12 So I don't know what was used as the guide for 12 A. -- would have something in there,
13 the location of the rocks on the south bank -- 13 usually at the very beginning, just like all
14 Q. Okay. 14 these other GDM reports that you had here.
15 A. -- back then originally. 15 Q. And there will be a general design
16 Q. Where would I find that? 16 document for foreshore --
17 A. That would be in the repository, I'm 17 A. It may be a supplement to the MRGO
18 sure. It's in the documents that the general 18 project itself. It may be an MRGO supplement,
19 engineering division -- branch, I mean, not 19 for example, just like the jetties were a
20 division, they're the ones who have been 20 supplement, I believe, to the MRGO project
21 maintaining, and I think they did the 21 itself.
22 construction of that original rock work also, 22 Q. All right. Now, just visually, you
23 as far as plans and specs here at the district. 23 tell me that it stops somewhere down here at
24 Q. Okay. I think you told me before that 24 the end of the hurricane protection levee?
25 the rock jetties constructed down here were 25 A. The authorized work ends -- it fronts
Page 139 Page 141
1 constructed and then possibly fill from the 1 the hurricane protection levee, yes, sir.
2 dredging put behind them. 2 Q. Okay. And just for visual, we can see
3 A. Material pumped behind both the north 3 the erosion south of this sort of --
4 and south jetties, yes, sir. 4 A. That's an another levee.
5 Q. And so we see down here an example of 5 Q. The north/south levee, the south levee
6 how a straight line rock jetty has filled in 6 around Violet.
7 behind it. Correct? 7 A. Correct.
8 A. Has fill behind it, yes, sir. 8 Q. The erosion is much wider south of
9 MR. BRUNO: 9 that. You see that?
10 Time out. He needs to change 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 tape. 11 Q. Okay. And then up here on the north
12 Good place to break? 12 side of that Violet hurricane protection levee,
13 MR. LAMBERT: 13 along this one, where the rocks were placed on
14 No, not yet. 14 the south side, the erosion seems to be
15 MR. BRUNO: 15 significantly less than it is on the north side
16 He needs to change the tape. 16 except in the area where you told me the rock
17 MR. LAMBERT: 17 jetty exists by Lake Borgne.
18 Well, change the tape. 18 A. Correct.
19 MR. BRUNO: 19 Q. So do you agree with me that these
20 So we're going the break 20 rocks were put along the south side of the MRGO
21 regardless. Okay? Let's talk. Two 21 to prevent the erosion created by deep draft
22 seconds. 22 vessels?
23 (Off the record.) 23 A. My understanding, from what I've been
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 told in the past, they were put there to
25 Q. Okay. Now, what do I look for, or 25 prevent erosion and to assist in the
36 (Pages 138 to 141)

Page 142 Page 144
1 maintenance of the project -- 1 some, yes, over time, yes.
2 Q. Okay. 2 Q. Well, let me just be real clear.
3 A. -- of the MRGO channel. 3 Okay? We've got a 40 plus or minus foot
4 Q. Okay. There's two purposes. Okay? 4 channel that's designed to be 500 feet wide at
5 Number 1, erosion, and of course we're looking 5 the bottom, but we know it's wider.
6 here at Exhibit Number 10 which is the website 6 A. Right.
7 page -- 7 Q. For maintenance dredging and other
8 A. Correct. 8 reasons.
9 Q. -- which shows the waves caused by 9 A. Uh-huh.
10 deep draft vessel wake. Correct? 10 Q. Supposed to be 680 feet wide at the
11 A. Correct. 11 top, and we know it's a couple of thousand feet
12 Q. Okay. And as we can see here, and as 12 wide at the top in places, correct?
13 we can also see here, it does some good putting 13 A. I don't know how wide exactly, but
14 rocks along there, right? 14 okay.
15 A. Correct. 15 Q. Big-time wide; more than twice it's
16 Q. Now, the second purpose was 16 width.
17 maintenance; in other words, it prevents the 17 A. All right. That's fine.
18 banks from falling in which requires 18 Q. Okay. And that is connected, tidally,
19 maintenance dredging to keep the channel deep 19 to the Gulf of Mexico.
20 enough for vessel traffic, correct? 20 A. It's connected tidally to Lake Borgne,
21 A. Correct. 21 the Gulf of Mexico, Lake Pontchartrain.
22 Q. Those are the two purposes that you 22 Q. Right. Well, the Gulf of Mexico is
23 understood were the reason for the spending of 23 the big daddy, but this is tied on and this is
24 the money by the Corps to put rock jetties 24 tied on.
25 along this section that we've identified from 25 A. Right.
Page 143 Page 145
1 Violet up to the turn in the Intracoastal 1 Q. Okay. Now, this concentrated pathway
2 waterway. 2 of erosion, which is also the pathway of the
3 A. It's authorized as a maintenance 3 deep draft vessels, is as a result, at least in
4 feature, in other words, for the MRGO project, 4 part, of the existence of the Mississippi River
5 but it also provides a secondary benefit to the 5 Gulf Outlet, correct?
6 hurricane protection levee. 6 A. In part, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And that's because this 7 Q. Okay. Now, let's hold up this other
8 channel, this navigational channel, created 8 one here just for a minute. This is the
9 erosion because of, at least in part, these 9 southern part of the Mississippi River Gulf
10 ships passing. Right? 10 Outlet. With the exception of the jetty
11 A. Yes. 11 portion which seems to be controlled in terms
12 Q. And the channel created the wetland 12 of its width --
13 destruction that we see evidenced by that 13 A. Uh-huh.
14 wobbly yellow line, correct? 14 Q. -- do you agree with me that there's a
15 A. Partially. 15 demonstrated erosion, or maybe not this, that's
16 Q. Okay. What's the other part? 16 a lake, but a demonstrated erosion taking place
17 A. Um -- natural subsidence. 17 along this whole reach, on both sides?
18 Q. Oh. I understand. But we wouldn't 18 A. I would say with the exception of the
19 see -- but this deep draft vessel channel here, 19 Bayou La Loutre area, yes.
20 we wouldn't see a line of erosion like that, 20 Q. And that's here?
21 would we? 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 A. I couldn't say you wouldn't. Maybe a 22 Q. And that's where there's a rock jetty?
23 different magnitude, but you would have some. 23 Or is that --
24 As I'm saying, you would have some -- because 24 A. Well, there are actually rock dikes on
25 of the geology in the area, you would have 25 the north bank here --
37 (Pages 142 to 145)

Page 146 Page 148
1 Q. Right. 1 A. Operation and maintenance.
2 A. -- on each side of Bayou La Loutre, 2 Q. Okay.
3 and dredge material was pumped behind it and 3 A. The O&M budget.
4 there's another set of dikes down here on the 4 Q. And that's the operation and
5 north side, also. 5 maintenance of the Mississippi River Gulf
6 Q. Okay. Well, the north side dikes 6 Outlet deep draft vessel navigational channel?
7 along here were put in a long time ago? 7 A. The MRGO project.
8 A. They were put in 2000 as well as the 8 Q. Okay.
9 ones downstream. 9 (Lunch break.)
10 Q. Okay. And you can see that the rock 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
11 dikes have really controlled the width right 11 Q. Mr. Broussard, welcome back.
12 around Bayou La Loutre, haven't they? 12 A. Thank you. Welcome back.
13 A. The rock dikes were put in there not 13 Q. I have a document which I'm going to
14 just for erosion but also they were disposal 14 mark for identification as Exhibit Number 11
15 retention features. 15 and ask you to look at the marked page which is
16 Q. Okay. Well, you pump behind it, it 16 Plate 1.
17 doesn't get back in -- 17 (Exhibit RB 11 was marked for
18 A. They were dead end canals, and they 18 identification and is attached hereto.)
19 were put there, in other words, to be a 19 MS. SOJA:
20 retaining material. 20 Could we see it, as well?
21 Q. And for whatever reasons, they're 21 MR. LAMBERT:
22 working because the stuff is not falling back 22 Yeah. Yeah. (Tendering.)
23 into the canal and the canal is not getting 23 MS. SOJA:
24 real wide there. 24 Thank you.
25 A. Well, it's also the most, probably the 25 (Off the record.)
Page 147 Page 149
1 most stable area on the MRGO project itself 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
2 from a geology standpoint. 2 Q. Before lunch we were talking about the
3 Q. Either way, here, which is around 3 rock placement on the south line of the MRGO
4 Bayou La Loutre -- 4 down through the levee area.
5 A. Uh-huh. 5 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- and down here, even where it's not 6 Q. And you said that it was likely due --
7 stable at all, where these shore protections 7 or authorized in a supplement general design
8 exist you have a controlled width and less 8 memorandum. I think that's what we have here.
9 erosion, right? 9 This is the General Design Memo Number 2
10 A. Right. 10 Foreshore Protection, Supplement Number 4,
11 MR. LAMBERT: 11 dated April of 1968. Do you see that?
12 Time to break. 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 (Off the record.) 13 Q. Okay. Now, if you'll flip to the
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 14 first page, the letter is April 18th, 1978, and
15 Q. Budget: Where did the money come from 15 it says subject, and it refers to this same
16 for the rocks? 16 Memo 2, Supplement 4, Foreshore Protection, and
17 A. Which ones? 17 it says, the purpose of this letter -- it says,
18 Q. The rocks along the -- let's just do 18 Purpose: The purpose of this letter report is
19 Bayou La Loutre. 19 to update the subject general design memorandum
20 A. They were all -- oh, that's all under 20 supplement. The report is limited to the
21 the O&M budget for the MRGO project. 21 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet north bank
22 Q. Okay. Operation and maintenance. 22 foreshore protection. South bank foreshore
23 A. That's correct. 23 protection will be addressed in a future
24 Q. How about the rocks along the south 24 report. The foreshore dike construction on the
25 side of the MRGO along the levees? 25 south bank is scheduled to begin in 1980.
38 (Pages 146 to 149)

Page 150 Page 152
1 You see that? 1 Q. Okay. So the money for this is coming
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 from this navigational channel office of O&M --
3 Q. Okay. Now, that's signed by chief, 3 what is it called, operations and maintenance?
4 engineering division, R.H. Resta. 4 A. It's the operations and maintenance --
5 Who is he? 5 it's the operations division, right.
6 A. He was the chief of the engineering 6 Q. For the navigable channel.
7 division at our division office. 7 A. Based upon what I see here, it's for
8 Q. Okay. 8 the MRGO channel, correct.
9 A. Mississippi Valley Division office. 9 Q. All right. Correct. Now, so if I
10 Q. And then there's a -- the next page to 10 have my dates right, the discussion about
11 that is Frederic C-H-A-T-R-Y. 11 shoreline protection along those areas of the
12 A. Chatry. 12 MRGO was the subject of the original General
13 Q. Chatry? 13 Design Memorandum Number 2 in 1968, correct?
14 A. Yes. 14 You got it right there, first page of the one
15 Q. And who is that gentleman? 15 we're looking at.
16 A. That's our former chief of the 16 A. Yes. April '68.
17 engineering division here at the New Orleans 17 Q. And then in '78, ten years later,
18 District. 18 there's a letter that discusses the dike
19 Q. Okay. Now, if you turn to the figure 19 discussion along the north bank, and it says in
20 that I have marked Plate 4, you see that 20 it that the south bank is going to start in
21 there's foreshore protection indicated -- 21 1980, two years later. You need to say yes on
22 A. Plate 4 or Plate 1? 22 the record.
23 Q. Plate 1. I'm sorry. Plate 1 -- along 23 A. Yes, sir. Based on the April '78,
24 the south side -- the south side of the MRGO 24 yes.
25 along the area where the levee exists. 25 Q. Okay, good. Now, there's -- it says
Page 151 Page 153
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 design changes, alignment. You see that in the
2 Q. And then along the north side of Reach 2 letter?
3 1 of the MRGO. That's the widened Intracoastal 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Waterway section, correct? 4 Q. Okay. Interpret that for me, if you
5 A. Correct. 5 would. It looks like four feet minus m.s.l.
6 Q. Okay. Now, first of all, where did 6 Minus four feet m.s.l. Mean sea level?
7 the funding come from for this, as best you can 7 A. Mean sea level, correct.
8 tell from this document? 8 Q. So we were trying to figure out the
9 A. Well, the funding came from Congress. 9 alignment before, and instead of a straight
10 Now, what project it was authorized under, I 10 line you were guessing it could be based on the
11 don't know myself personally. 11 mean sea level, and this looks like that.
12 Q. Okay. 12 A. It could have been based upon a
13 A. Whether it was under the MRGO 13 contour, that's what I side, correct. Contour
14 project -- this right here, this report right 14 or existing water depth, right.
15 here tells me it was funded under MRGO. 15 Q. Okay. So it looks like that the
16 Q. That's what I thought. 16 wiggly line came from this contour, likely,
17 A. Based upon this title block and these 17 four feet below sea level. Wiggly line of the
18 letters here. 18 rock structure.
19 Q. Correct. 19 A. Well, keep in mind that this paragraph
20 A. Not like Lake Pontchartrain, correct. 20 right here is referring to the north bank of
21 Q. Okay. So as best you can tell, based 21 MRGO.
22 on this document, and you can look at Plate 2 22 Q. Okay.
23 also -- believe it or not it's further forward 23 A. The citrus back levee construction.
24 in the document -- same thing, right? 24 And we were referring to the south bank before.
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 Right before the break.
39 (Pages 150 to 153)

Page 154 Page 156
1 Q. Okay. And we're going to point those 1 supplement to the design memo.
2 out for the record. 2 A. Basically, this is their letter of
3 North bank is up here. 3 approval of the design supplement, yes.
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. Yes. Okay.
5 Q. And what we have here is stones placed 5 A. That's correct.
6 along this line which look like pretty much 6 Q. All right.
7 along the design line, top channel design 7 A. When you say -- when you talk about
8 width, along the north bank of this Reach 1, 8 authorizing it, that's something a little
9 correct? 9 different. But they've approved the document,
10 A. It appears, yes. Correct. 10 in other words, is what they're doing here.
11 Q. Okay. And then this bank, on the 11 Q. Where do we find out how the money --
12 south side of the MRGO, was supposed to start 12 A. That's going to be someone else, like
13 in 1980, right? 13 I said earlier, in either my operations and
14 A. According to this letter, yes. 14 division office or it's going to be -- it my
15 Q. Okay. Now, the money came from the 15 have been -- like I said earlier, someone in
16 O&M budget for the maintenance of the MRGO, 16 our planning division back then. Best would be
17 right? 17 to check with someone in the operations
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 division.
19 Q. And who dropped the flag on this; in 19 Q. Give me a name.
20 other words, was it the chief engineer that 20 A. Um -- the chef, operations division,
21 said, let's do this? 21 is Mr. Chris Accardo.
22 A. When you say dropped the -- could you 22 Q. And Mr. Accardo would be able to look
23 clarify when you say dropped the flag? 23 back in his records and figure your out where
24 Q. Yeah. Here's what I'm talking about: 24 the money came for these rock structures.
25 Nobody went back the Congress to get approval 25 A. He would be able to consult with his
Page 155 Page 157
1 to put up this rock dike; correct. It was 1 current operations manager and any other folks
2 authorized in some previous act. 2 who may have served in that capacity
3 A. Honestly, right off the bat right now, 3 previously, correct.
4 I really don't know offhand. 4 Q. All right.
5 Q. Doesn't it look like from this 5 A. As far as funding for foreshore
6 document that this engineering division are the 6 protection on MRGO, yes.
7 people that said, I think we need these rocks 7 Q. Okay. Good. Now, based on what you
8 along here and we're going to put them in? 8 know, experience, if you built a straight line
9 A. First of all, the letter, the first 9 rock structure to control erosion --
10 letter -- 10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Yes, sir. 11 Q. -- and you pumped behind it your spoil
12 A. -- that you're referring to right here 12 from the dredging operation, you'd end up with
13 is -- well, let's see. 13 something looks like that structure down
14 Q. It says, the letter report updates the 14 towards the south that we've already looked at,
15 September -- Supplement 4 to GDM, General 15 correct?
16 Design Memorandum Number 2 -- 16 MS. SOJA:
17 A. Correct. 17 We'll object to the hypothetical.
18 Q. -- is approved subject to the 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 following: And then it's signed by this 19 Yeah. Subject.
20 division engineer named Resta, whose title is 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 chief, engineering division. 21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. Correct. 22 A. If I was able to build me a foreshore
23 Q. All right. So based on what I'm 23 dike high enough, I could use it as a disposal
24 looking at here, it seems to me like this chief 24 area for material dredged from the MRGO to
25 of the engineering division approved this 25 build marsh or even upland, depending upon what
40 (Pages 154 to 157)

Page 158 Page 160
1 was desired. 1 right?
2 Q. There is an acronym for that, what is 2 A. There are foreshore dikes in that
3 it? Better use or? 3 area, north bank as well as south bank,
4 A. Beneficial use of dredge material. 4 correct.
5 Q. Right. B -- 5 Q. Okay. Well, we could get some
6 A. Not the Bud map. The BUMP program? 6 anywhere in along in here. Um -- what is this,
7 Q. BUMP. 7 um -- 51.50? 51.500. 51.500, 5200, 52.500, in
8 A. Beneficial use of material. 8 that area.
9 Q. That always scares me when you use 9 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
10 acronyms, because you never know what you're 10 Q. Cross-sections. But what that's
11 going to end up with. 11 intended to show is a widening due to dredging
12 A. I have enough acronyms to deal with. 12 over time and erosion --
13 Q. So the BUMP is better use of -- 13 A. Okay.
14 A. I'm not sure whether it's better use 14 Q. -- that you know to have occurred in
15 of material placed, but basically it's 15 areas of the MRGO where there is no shore
16 beneficial use of dredge material, is what it 16 protection, correct?
17 refers to, for the most part. 17 A. There's been erosion, yes.
18 Q. Okay. Good. And you have done that? 18 Q. Okay. And the erosion occurs over
19 A. Oh. Beneficial use monitoring 19 time, correct?
20 program. 20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. That's it. 21 Q. And the box dredging where the walls
22 A. That's what it is. 22 fill the bottom promotes the widening of the
23 Q. That's exactly right. 23 channel at the surface, doesn't it?
24 A. But it all has to do with beneficial 24 A. Not necessarily, no, sir.
25 use of dredge materials disposal. 25 Q. No?
Page 159 Page 161
1 Q. Dredge materials, right. Okay. 1 A. No, sir.
2 Let me just show you this -- I'm sure 2 Q. Well, how does it get wide?
3 you were shown it before but I want to just get 3 A. The box cut allows for material in the
4 it in the record. Exhibit Number 12 is from -- 4 side slopes inside the template to fall into
5 Oh, wait. No, I'm not going to do that. It's 5 those corners where you're digging outside of
6 4 something. C. 4(c). And it's again one of 6 the theoretical bottom.
7 these little schematic sketches which is 7 Q. What keep --
8 labeled Exhibit 5, and it has on it a depiction 8 A. Not the top. Not the top of the shelf
9 of a planned template or cross-section, and 9 of the MRGO. It's what's inside the slopes.
10 then there is one at the bottom that shows 10 It allows for that to fall in, into that corner
11 after erosion. 11 there, in other words.
12 You see that? 12 Q. Okay. Well, let's go back here for a
13 (Exhibit RB 4(c) was marked for 13 second to 4(a).
14 identification and is attached hereto.) 14 A. Uh-huh.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Are you saying that if you were to cut
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 16 the bottom of 4(a), and in 4(a) I'll just label
17 Q. Okay. No, I know that you probably 17 this one as top and this one as the bottom.
18 have templates that look like these, but they 18 Now, in 4(a), RB 4(a), if we cut down here at
19 are in real life, right? I mean, you have 19 the bottom, doesn't the material from the top
20 actual surveys. 20 here fall down into it?
21 A. I have actual surveys, correct. 21 A. If this were a solid cut, yes. That's
22 Q. Okay. And I know we're going to be 22 correct. But this is a -- this is
23 provided with some of those. I would like to 23 representative of an existing channel where you
24 get some -- and just so the record is clear, 24 would do maintenance. In other words, it shows
25 let me give you -- now, those are structures, 25 a channel already existing. That's where the
41 (Pages 158 to 161)

Page 162 Page 164
1 width of the box cut comes into play -- 1 it clear. The Corps of Engineers boss that
2 Q. I understand. 2 says we're going to do this or we're not, he
3 A. -- is to account for what's on the 3 decides that it's too expensive for some
4 slopes inside the theoretical template, in 4 reason. Okay?
5 other words, and only what's on the slopes 5 A. Okay.
6 inside the template. 6 Q. And he wants to go the cheap route in
7 Q. I understand what you're saying, but 7 terms of the MRGO situation. We know as far
8 there is nothing in the slopes on the template 8 back as 1988 when we looked at that document, I
9 that prevent the upper box in this 4(a) from 9 can't remember the number, I think it's 8 or 9,
10 falling into the lower box. You're not going 10 one of those, there was an option to close it.
11 to have a vertical line there no matter what. 11 Correct?
12 If you box cut -- 12 A. Correct.
13 A. No, that's right. 13 Q. All right. And that doesn't cost a
14 Q. In other words, it's not going to 14 lot of money to do.
15 happen. Your plan was for this the cave into a 15 A. It depends upon which method of
16 1 on 2 ratio. 16 closure, yes, it does.
17 A. Correct. 17 Q. Well, it doesn't cost as much as
18 Q. Okay. And the last time I checked, 18 putting rock dams on both sides, does it?
19 instill water sediment doesn't move up. 19 A. Rock dams?
20 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Rock -- I don't mean dams. I mean
21 Q. It goes downhill. 21 foreshore protection down the whole length of
22 A. Right. 22 the MRGO.
23 Q. Okay. So in 4(a), it's true that the 23 A. Probably not.
24 material up in the top of this triangle is 24 Q. Okay. So if you decide to go the less
25 expected to go down into the bottom. 25 expensive route, and then by doing that you
Page 163 Page 165
1 A. If it's a full -- if you that's -- if 1 avoid future dredging, you just let it silt
2 it's solid, yes. 2 fill and the whole thing, then that could be
3 Q. Yes. Okay. All right. 3 done as opposed to trying to keep the channel
4 Now, just so I'm clear, let's just 4 open which was done for; gee, from 1988 until
5 say, for example, that the chief engineer or 5 you just did the closure. Correct?
6 the -- let's just say the Corps of Engineers, 6 A. Well, the closure has not been built
7 whichever guy in the Corps of Engineers has the 7 yet, no. It's in the planning phase.
8 power, whether it's the Louisiana guy or the 8 Q. In the planning stages.
9 district officer, if they don't choose to use 9 A. Correct.
10 their discretionary function or their authority 10 Q. In other words, there's more than one
11 to fund the project because they think it's too 11 way to skin the cat, correct?
12 expensive. 12 A. Yes.
13 MS. SOJA: 13 Q. In other words, you can do a partial,
14 I'll object that that calls for a 14 um -- bank stabilization program, as we've seen
15 legal -- 15 done --
16 MR. LAMBERT: 16 A. Uh-huh.
17 I haven't even finished. 17 Q. -- true?
18 MS. SOJA: 18 A. Correct.
19 Fair enough. 19 Q. Or you can do the full bank
20 MR. LAMBERT: 20 stabilization where you actually try to bring
21 Let me get it all out so I can 21 the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet back close to
22 make sure I know what you're objecting 22 its original design criteria of 680 feet, plus
23 to. 23 or minus, wide -- you could do that, correct?
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 24 A. Very expensive -- you could, yes.
25 Q. And let me start again just so we make 25 Q. Expensive. But you could do it.
42 (Pages 162 to 165)

Page 166 Page 168
1 A. You could. 1 Island outside of the designated wilderness
2 Q. But if you don't have the money or you 2 area and locate it generally north of latitude
3 can't get the money or you don't want to spend 3 29 degrees, 28 -- this says seconds north.
4 the money, you could always close the thing, as 4 Q. Okay. It probably means minutes.
5 you all are getting ready to do now. Correct? 5 A. Probably was. Probably a typo.
6 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Yeah. Need.
7 Q. Okay. Now, one of the things that I 7 A. Need: There's no -- excuse me.
8 have seen done -- Exhibit 12 -- (Tendering.) 8 There's a need to beneficially use dredge
9 A. Okay. 9 material removed during maintenance dredging of
10 Q. -- is where I think I got that acronym 10 the MRGO navigational channel to the maximum
11 BUMP. B-U-M-P. On Page 4. It says the 11 extent practicable. There is also a need to
12 beneficial use monitoring program, erosion of 12 restore the barrier island habitat and the
13 land loss. Erosion and land loss. Background 13 storm and hurricane surge protection provided
14 information. Do you see that? 14 by the rapidly eroding Breton Island. Breton
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Island, like the other islands in the
16 Q. And there is the term, just like you 16 Chandeleur Islands Barrier System is part of
17 said, BUMP. Correct? 17 the first line of defense against storms for
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 eastern Louisiana and western Mississippi. The
19 Q. Okay. Now, this particular -- it's 19 barrier islands buffer the mainland from both
20 called Environmental Assessment, Beneficial Use 20 the wind and storm surges associated with
21 of Dredge Material for Restoration of Breton 21 hurricanes, tropical storms and winter storms
22 Island, Plaquemines Parish, Louisiana. 22 in the Gulf of Mexico. However, the Chandeleur
23 Purpose: If you'd read the purpose for me, 23 Islands Barrier System in general, and Breton
24 please. Right here. 24 Island in particular, are rapidly eroding.
25 MS. SOJA: 25 Historical analysis by the BUMP, 1997,
Page 167 Page 169
1 Are you on Page 4? 1 determined that between 1869 and 1985 Breton
2 MR. LAMBERT: 2 Island decreased in area by 568.3 acres at a
3 No. Sorry. I backed up. I'm on 3 rate of 4.9 acres per year, with an average
4 Page looks like 2 now. 4 rate of shoreline change for this period at
5 A. Okay. Purpose and need? 5 19.5 feet per year. More recently, between
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 6 1985 and 1996, Breton Island has shown
7 Q. Yes, sir. Okay. Purpose: 7 increased rates of shoreline change of negative
8 A. The USACE, New Orleans District, 8 27.3 feet per year and land loss of negative
9 proposes the beneficial use of dredge material 9 6.6 acres per year. In addition to its role in
10 removed during maintenance dredging of the MRGO 10 reducing the impacts of storms and hurricanes
11 navigational channel for the restoration of 11 to the mainland, Breton Island provides
12 Breton Island to it historic footprint, 12 valuable and unique barrier island habitat.
13 configuration and elevation profile. Breton 13 Q. All right. You can stop there.
14 Island is located on the southern side of the 14 A. Okay.
15 MRGO navigation channel that passes through 15 Q. You don't know, and it's not in your
16 Breton Sound and Chandeleur Sound on its way to 16 field, to determine whether or not the channel
17 the Gulf of Mexico, Figure 1. Breton Island, 17 cut through the Breton barrier Island
18 the southernmost island in the Chandeleur 18 structure, meaning the sandy underlying bottom
19 Islands Barrier System is part of the Breton 19 land; you don't know whether or not the cutting
20 National Wildlife Refuse NWR. All of federally 20 of the MRGO through there affected the
21 owned lands in the NWR, except for North Breton 21 island 's deterioration, do you?
22 Island, became part of the National Wildlife 22 A. No, sir.
23 Preservation System on January 3rd, 1975, 23 Q. Okay. You do know that the area of
24 Public Law 93-622. The USACE New Orleans 24 Breton Island is one of the areas where there
25 District would restore that portion of Breton 25 was heavy shoaling.
43 (Pages 166 to 169)

Page 170 Page 172
1 A. You mean the area of the channel? 1 between 23 and 60. So that's up in the area
2 Q. Yeah. 2 of, um --
3 A. The bar channel? Yes, sir. 3 A. That's from the jetties to the GIWW.
4 Q. Okay. And this document discusses the 4 Q. Yeah. That's what I was looking for.
5 use of the dredge materials to help build up 5 And it says, define the extent of
6 the island from its deterioration, correct? 6 erosion and erosion-related problems occurring
7 A. Correct. 7 in the area, identify opportunities to
8 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to mark for 8 implement potential solutions to the defined
9 identification as Exhibit -- which one was 9 problems, evaluate potential solutions by
10 that? 10 evaluating their cost, benefits and
11 A. This is 12. 11 environmental impacts, identify the post
12 Q. 12(a) is going to be this document. 12 appropriate plan or plans for implementation
13 (Tendering.) And I don't have a copy. Oh, 13 and development, and develop baseline designs
14 wait. I do. 14 and cost estimates, determine the level of
15 And that shows Breton Island, correct? 15 federal interest. And then it gives you
16 (Exhibit RB 12(a) was marked for 16 proposed alternatives.
17 identification and is attached hereto.) 17 On the next page, it says, impose
18 A. That's correct. 18 speed limits, no action -- I'm sorry. It
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 19 starts with Structural Plans. It's got A, B,
20 Q. And just to get the big picture in 20 C, D, E -- this looks like all putting rocks in
21 here, too, we'll put in 2(b). (Tendering.) 21 there. Right?
22 MS. SOJA: 22 A. Without having anything else in front
23 Thank you. 23 of me, probably -- it sounds like one of those
24 (Exhibit RB 12(b) was marked for 24 reports you passed out earlier.
25 identification and is attached hereto.) 25 Q. Foreshore?
Page 171 Page 173
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 1 A. It sounds like foreshore protection,
2 Q. Which shows the relative picture of 2 yes, sir.
3 where Breton Island is on the big scale of 3 Q. Okay. Good. And then those are the
4 things, right? 4 expensive ones. Then we got here F, G, H on
5 A. Correct. Yes, sir. 5 the next page, speed alignment, no action at
6 Q. Okay. Exhibit 13. Is that where we 6 all, and then close the MRGO to commercial
7 are? (Tendering.) Now you're going to have to 7 navigation. Right?
8 tell me what this is, because it is a series of 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 documents -- it's got a stamp on the last page 9 Q. So we're still talking about it here
10 which you may recognize -- it's entitled 10 in '93, correct?
11 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, Bank Erosion, 11 A. Correct.
12 it's dated September 30, '93, and it's got a 12 Q. So whatever was done back there in
13 meeting agenda. 13 1980 was maybe helpful, but problem not solved.
14 Do you recognize this -- first, did 14 Does the meet with your recollection?
15 you see there's some handwritten notes on the 15 A. Well, back in '80, I can't --
16 page, too? 16 Q. How about '90? I'm sorry. '99.
17 (Exhibit RB 13 was marked for 17 A. '99.
18 identification and is attached hereto.) 18 Q. '99 is when I showed you the first
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 memorandum that had to do with closing the
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 20 MRGO.
21 Q. Do you recognize those scribbles? 21 Oh, wait. I'm sorry. This is '93.
22 A. No, sir, I don't. 22 Okay. So let's start again. '88 was the big
23 Q. It says, under area to be studied, the 23 fat one there, the first one.
24 study area, Page 2, is located in St. Bernard 24 A. Right.
25 Parish along the unleveed banks of the MRGO 25 Q. And that one had to do with erosion
44 (Pages 170 to 173)

Page 174 Page 176
1 problems and a big discussion of them of which 1 That's why I asked you. But we'll go on to the
2 we saw there were alternatives in there that 2 next one, Exhibit 14. (Tendering.)
3 included closing the MRGO. 3 Now this one, three years later in
4 A. Well, this was the one I'm not -- I 4 July of 1996 --
5 don't recall offhand because I know this was 5 (Brief interruption.)
6 the one that was very complex and we kind of 6 (Exhibit RB 14 was marked for
7 scooted on to the next document here. 7 identification and is attached hereto.)
8 Q. Okay. 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
9 A. So I'm not sure offhand which -- 9 Q. Okay. Now we know from these acronyms
10 whether this one or this one referred to the 10 up at the top, CELMN-ED-E -- you told me before
11 closure. 11 what that means, that means the Corps of
12 Q. Okay. Well, we're still talking about 12 Engineers --
13 it here in this one which we've now marked for 13 A. Corps of Engineers, Lower Mississippi
14 identification as Exhibit Number 13, right? 14 New Orleans, engineering Division, Engineering
15 A. Uh-huh. 15 Control Branch, the E.
16 Q. As an alternative. 16 Q. All right. Now, on the first page it
17 And then it goes on to say, in 17 says that the foreshore protection along the
18 conclusions, findings of the study indicate 18 leveed reaches of the MRGO authorized by the
19 that severe erosion is occurring along the 19 August, 1969 project modification has been
20 banks of the MRGO. Why don't you go ahead and 20 completed.
21 read it. 21 Now, way back in '69 -- we looked at
22 A. Findings of the study indicate that 22 that document that showed us that it was
23 severe erosion is occurring along the banks of 23 authorized correct? You want to go look at it
24 the MRGO. The current bank erosion problem 24 again?
25 will become a major channel maintenance problem 25 A. Yeah.
Page 175 Page 177
1 in the future. An estimated six-fold increase 1 MS. SOJA:
2 in required average annual maintenance dredging 2 Paragraph C. (Indicating.)
3 of the MRGO could be realized by the year 2002. 3 A. Paragraph C?
4 Wave wash and drawdown effects produced by 4 MS. SOJA:
5 large vessel traffic are causing highly 5 Right here.
6 productive marsh to be converted to open water. 6 Just give him a second to read
7 Saltwater intrusion into marsh that remains has 7 it.
8 significantly modified the former fresh 8 MR. LAMBERT:
9 intermediate marsh character of much of the 9 Sure.
10 study area. Recreational hunting and fishing 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
11 resources have been diminished and cultural 11 Q. First line of that paragraph, third
12 resources are threatened by the currently 12 paragraph, it says the project was modified in
13 unabated bank erosion. 13 August of '96 under the discretionary authority
14 Q. Okay, you can stop there. 14 of the chief of engineers. Do you see that?
15 That is a clear indication that there 15 A. Yes.
16 were ongoing discussions. By the way, this is 16 Q. The project modification provided for,
17 a Corps document, correct? 17 as a mitigation measure, protecting a portion
18 A. You asking me? 18 of the foreshore line between Lake
19 Q. Yeah. 19 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection
20 A. Um -- offhand, it appears to be. The 20 levees and the MRGO. This includes six miles
21 paragraph I just read appears to have come from 21 along the north bank of the MRGO in the
22 a Corps report, but I don't see anything with a 22 reach -- that would be Reach 1 -- as part of
23 title or anything. To be honest with you, I'm 23 the WGI, and the 18 miles of the south bank of
24 not sure. 24 the MRGO. That's the one on the south side
25 Q. And I don't know for sure either. 25 that runs down to the end of the hurricane
45 (Pages 174 to 177)

Page 178 Page 180
1 protection levees; correct? 1 you better, in other words, but basically it's
2 A. Correct. 2 the drawdown of the water as the vessel is
3 Q. And that was under the discretionary 3 transiting, he's moving down the channel,
4 power of the chief of engineers, according to 4 versus the wake that's being created, in other
5 this document. Correct? 5 words, by the wave.
6 A. According to this, yes. 6 Q. Okay. Well, we know, just based on
7 Q. So that answers our question from a 7 our general knowledge of engineering, that
8 little while back. Correct? 8 liquids are non compressible. Gases are
9 A. Yes. 9 compressible.
10 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the next 10 A. Right.
11 page. Current MRGO channel maintenance 11 Q. Okay. So when you move this heavy ton
12 requirements: The MRGO channel was designed 12 vessel through the waterway, there's a reason
13 for relatively small general cargo vessels 13 why the wake comes up, and that's -- the reason
14 (freighters.) Right? 14 is because the weight of the vessel is
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 displacing --
16 Q. You read on, please. 16 A. Right.
17 A. However, ship sizes have increased and 17 Q. -- huge amounts of water. Correct?
18 larger container vessels move over the MRGO to 18 A. Uh-huh. Correct.
19 and from several container facilities located 19 Q. Okay. So that must have something to
20 in New Orleans. 20 do with this drawdown. Do you think? Or is
21 Q. Let me stop you right there. That's a 21 that a current created by the vessel?
22 navigational situation, right? 22 A. It's more or less associated with the
23 A. Yes. 23 wave created by the vessel.
24 Q. Okay. Those are bigger boats than 24 Q. Okay. All right. Well, that's fine.
25 were originally thought of to be in that 25 Start with passage, please.
Page 179 Page 181
1 channel are now using it, right? 1 A. Passage of these vessels causes very
2 A. That's what this says, yes. 2 large quantities of water to be displaced from
3 Q. Okay. And then we go back to our 3 the channel into the adjacent marsh, followed
4 exhibit that shows the picture of the deep 4 by rapid return flow into the channel. The
5 draft container vessel, which is what they're 5 tremendous forces exerted by these rapid and
6 talking about right here in Exhibit Number -- 6 extreme water level fluctuations caused the
7 A. 14? 7 relatively soft marsh adjacent to the channel
8 Q. -- 14, right? Running down the MRGO, 8 to break up and be swept into the waterway.
9 correct? 9 Q. Okay. And I imagine that that's one
10 A. Correct. 10 of the scenarios that causes the need for
11 Q. All right. And the reason for that 11 increased maintenance work.
12 is -- when I say navigation, it had nothing to 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 do with hurricane protection, right? 13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you to turn, if you
14 A. Correct. 14 would, please, to the next page. And you see
15 Q. Okay. Good. Now, keep reading, 15 the underlined portions? Would you read those,
16 please. 16 please, into the record.
17 A. The wave wash and drawdown caused by 17 A. Erosion along both the north and south
18 these larger vessels moving over the restricted 18 banks of the land cut portion of the channel is
19 channel have eroded its banks beyond the limits 19 significant. The average rate of bank retreat
20 of the channel rights of way in some areas. 20 is about 15 feet per year for each bank. The
21 Q. Okay. Now, let me stop you right 21 south bank of the MRGO along the Chalmette loop
22 there. Drawdown. I know what wave wash is 22 of the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity
23 from the wake. Drawdown. What is that? 23 Hurricane Protection Levee, Mile 47 to Mile
24 A. That's basically a hydraulics -- a 24 59.4 is protected with a rock foreshore dike.
25 hydraulic design expert could describe that for 25 No erosion protection measures exist along the
46 (Pages 178 to 181)

Page 182 Page 184
1 MRGO south bank between Mile 23 and Mile 47. 1 means to me in rough language that there's some
2 Protection measures for Mile 59.4 to Mile 60 2 economic calculations being done and based on
3 are authorized but have not been constructed. 3 traffic.
4 Q. That's fine. 4 A. Correct.
5 MS. SOJA: 5 Q. Okay.
6 For the record, I just wanted to 6 MS. SOJA:
7 note that there was a footnote here -- 7 Hugh, before you go on to your
8 MR. LAMBERT: 8 next question, those underlines that
9 Sure. 9 you have here in these documents and
10 MS. SOJA: 10 in the previous documents, are those
11 -- that he didn't read. 11 yours?
12 MR. LAMBERT: 12 MR. LAMBERT:
13 Go ahead and read it. What do 13 No.
14 you want to read? Go ahead and read 14 MS. SOJA:
15 it. 15 They were in the document to
16 MS. SOJA: 16 begin with?
17 Just for the record. 17 MR. LAMBERT:
18 MR. LAMBERT: 18 Correct.
19 No. Go ahead. 19 MS. SOJA:
20 The data was based on comparing? 20 Okay. Thank you.
21 Is that what you want? 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
22 MS. SOJA: 22 Q. Okay. That's good enough for that
23 Correct. 23 one. Again, a November, 2001 MRGO Reevaluation
24 MR. LAMBERT: 24 Study Meeting Agenda. And there you are,
25 Okay. The data was based on 25 right-hand column.
Page 183 Page 185
1 comparing uncontrolled aerial 1 (Exhibit RB 15 was marked for
2 photographs with the approximate scale 2 identification and is attached hereto.)
3 of 1 inch equals a thousand feet 3 A. Correct.
4 (1:12,000) for the following years: 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
5 '68, '73, '79, '82, '83, '86 and '92. 5 Q. Fifth guy down.
6 The erosion varies considerably since 6 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
7 the bank line is not uniform and often 7 Q. Eastern -- no, engineering division,
8 consists of broken and irregular marsh 8 Louisiana -- what's the W? LW?
9 shorelines or embankments. 9 A. Oh. Engineering Division, um -- LW,
10 MS. SOJA: 10 the L was for civil branch, and the W is for
11 Embayments. 11 waterways section.
12 MR. LAMBERT: 12 Q. Okay. Now, these are proposed
13 Embayments. Fine. 13 alternatives in a meeting that was held
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 14 sometime in November of 2001, or at least the
15 Q. The next page, Appendix A, Analysis, 15 notes were created then, right?
16 and it's the underline part. 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. The analysis clearly shows that it is 17 Q. Okay.
18 in the federal interest to continue maintenance 18 MR. LAMBERT:
19 of the channel for commercial navigation even 19 And there's a bunch of hand notes
20 under conservative (no growth) deep draft 20 in here, and I promise I don't know
21 traffic projections and my channel shoaling 21 where they came from.
22 rates. 22 MS. SOJA:
23 Q. Now, you and I don't know about that 23 Fair enough.
24 right now and we're not going to go into it 24 MR. LAMBERT:
25 because we're talking about channels, but that 25 No idea.
47 (Pages 182 to 185)

Page 186 Page 188
1 MS. SOJA: 1 funding? Is that what that says?
2 Fair enough. 2 A. Basically, what that's saying, in
3 MR. LAMBERT: 3 other words, is the O&M budget that's allocated
4 Okay. 4 by Congress each year was insufficient to be
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 5 able to go ahead and be cable to construct
6 Q. And there's a bunch of alternatives. 6 foreshore dikes along the entire MRGO, so you
7 Correct? 7 would need additional -- some other
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 supplemental funding from Congress to do that
9 Q. And just for the record, I'm sure it 9 work.
10 has a lot to do with, um -- with different 10 Q. Okay. But not the rest of these; in
11 alternatives of rocks and so on, but one of 11 other words, that's the only one that says
12 them, Number 5, is to let it silt in. Correct? 12 that, the rest of them you could do, isn't that
13 A. That's correct. 13 correct?
14 Q. Which means close it, correct? 14 A. I don't know. I mean, I haven't
15 A. Well, Number 5 actually was -- yeah, 15 looked at all these right now.
16 allowing it to silt in or construct a closure, 16 Q. Well, let's put it this way: You can
17 yes. 17 sure close it if you want to, right?
18 Q. Okay. Now, before we get to that, 18 A. Not on the O&M budget, no.
19 what's the -- what are the tolerances of this 19 Q. Okay.
20 channel? In other words, I know you don't want 20 A. Everything I see here for the most
21 it to be too sharp of a turn for a vessel. 21 part is going to require some sort of
22 Right? 22 additional funding --
23 A. (Nods head affirmatively.) Correct. 23 Q. All right.
24 Q. Okay. And I know that you've got a 24 A. -- to do this.
25 depth requirement that you -- 36 feet, and then 25 Q. Okay.
Page 187 Page 189
1 we talked about the over maintenance dredging, 1 A. Definitely would be additional funding
2 over -- what's it called? 2 required for all these features here.
3 A. Advanced maintenance. 3 Q. To alter this navigational channel by
4 Q. Advanced maintenance. And you're 4 more than O&M.
5 going to find a document for that for me later 5 A. In addition to the current O&M budget,
6 on, right? That says something about that. 6 correct.
7 That's one of ours that we're looking for? We 7 Q. Okay. Let me show you -- this is a
8 need it. 8 2002 document which discusses, again, various
9 A. I think you -- is that the one where 9 alternatives, but the part that I was
10 you wanted an old o -- 10 interested in the area particular, um -- says
11 Q. Yes, template -- 11 R.C. Clark or Rick Broussard -- that must be
12 A. That I don't have in my available -- 12 you -- can provide a detailed history of
13 yes. 13 dredging costs and CYs moved on the MRGO from
14 Q. The first one you've got. And I would 14 the database. I have a hard copy.
15 like something in writing, too, if you have it, 15 What's that mean?
16 that says we can do advanced maintenance. 16 (Exhibit RB 16 was marked for
17 Now, Number 12 on this next page says, 17 identification and is attached hereto.)
18 place rocks or other hard protection along 18 A. That's K.C. Clark, just to clarify
19 north and south of MRGO. Complete the 19 that, and the CY is cubic yards. This is from
20 remaining portions of the protection that 20 Mr. Edmond Russo who was a former MRGO manager
21 operations will not be able to construct with 21 here at the New Orleans District here. And
22 the maintenance funding. 22 let's see. Without reading the entire E-mail,
23 So it seems to me like O&M is doing 23 I guess what he's referring to is that
24 most of this, but if you were going to line it 24 K.C. Clark or I could provide some detailed
25 on both sides you might have to look for more 25 history of dredging costs on the MRGO project
48 (Pages 186 to 189)

Page 190 Page 192
1 itself. Because I have as builts and bid 1 structures branch, but he's still here, yes.
2 abstracts in my office, in other words, or had. 2 Q. Structures branch. Where is his
3 And they're turned over. As well as also the 3 physical office?
4 cubic yards removed by reaches. 4 A. I don't know his office, his room
5 Q. Okay. And you do have that. 5 number offhand. He's on the third floor,
6 A. I had that. I turned it over. All my 6 though.
7 data has been turned over, as well as also the 7 Q. Here, in this building.
8 dredging history that I had, the database, I 8 A. He's in this building yes, sir,
9 think, which he's referring to here was an 9 correct.
10 access database. 10 Q. What about -- and that's where the
11 Q. Okay. And let's see. Do we know what 11 foreshore department is, here in this building,
12 that is? How do we identify that? Who's got 12 for this -- MRGO?
13 it, first of all? 13 A. No. Mr. Giroir 's office used to
14 A. The access database? 14 handle that prior to Katrina. Since Katrina,
15 Q. Uh-huh. 15 that has now been absorbed by my office. The
16 A. That's the one I referred to earlier, 16 foreshore protection work.
17 I think, when I told you I reviewed some this 17 Q. Okay. But before, it was handled by
18 morning. That's about seventy pages. 18 him.
19 Q. There you go. 19 A. That's correct.
20 A. That's in the repository, hard copy as 20 Q. Okay. And -- but when it was handled
21 well as also in the electronic data, also. 21 before by him, it was still handled through
22 Q. Okay. 22 this building?
23 A. That's been turned over. 23 A. Oh, yes, sir. Correct.
24 Q. RB 17 is -- it looks like a part of a, 24 Q. Okay.
25 um -- Power Point. And it says in the bottom 25 A. The only foreshore rock work that his
Page 191 Page 193
1 here on the first page -- well, Task 1, place 1 office had not done prior to Katrina were those
2 rocks or other hard protection along entire 2 rock dikes I showed you earlier on the north
3 north shore. And then it says a number of rock 3 bank around Bayou La Loutre just downstream,
4 jobs have been completed to date under the O&M 4 because these were tied in conjunction with one
5 program and there are several on the books to 5 of our O&M dredging contracts.
6 be done. Rick Broussard and Gerry Giroir, to 6 Q. That north shore protection?
7 the best of their knowledge, are doing an 7 A. The two reaches on the north shore.
8 inventory of what exists and what is planned. 8 But there were another two on the north shore
9 Do you remember doing that? 9 that his office had taken care of in other
10 (Exhibit RB 17 was marked for 10 areas.
11 identification and is attached hereto.) 11 Q. Okay. Now, do you know how high the
12 A. Um -- for the most part I think Gerry 12 water level was at the Paris Road bridge during
13 Giroir is in our -- well, was in our general 13 Katrina?
14 engineering branch, and he had been the person 14 A. I don't know exact elevation, no, sir.
15 who prior to Katrina was responsible, or his 15 Q. What's your best recollection of it?
16 office, for the foreshore protection along the 16 A. I don't know what the elevation was.
17 MRGO channel. And from what I can recall, I 17 I don't know offhand what the elevation was.
18 think we were doing inventories of what had 18 Q. Okay. All right.
19 been completed and maybe even planned as far as 19 (Brief recess.)
20 foreshore protection for the MRGO project. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT:
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: 21 Q. What's the annual dredging --
22 Q. And he would have that? Does he still 22 maintenance dredging costs from your O&M
23 work for the Corps? 23 budget? I mean, per year, about, just
24 A. Yes, sir. He's now in the structures 24 ballpark? You can give me highs and lows if
25 branch. It was reorganized, so he's now in the 25 you want.
49 (Pages 190 to 193)

Page 194 Page 196
1 A. The average annual was probably 1 Mexico, and those are areas that are more
2 somewhere, I'd say, around thirteen and a half, 2 susceptible to impacts as far as shoaling
3 fourteen million. That information -- the 3 impact and impacts to navigation.
4 operations manager would have all of that 4 Q. Okay. Now, I guess further erosion of
5 information for you, if you're interested in 5 Breton Sound, the more open -- let's put it
6 that. 6 this way: The more open water you have next to
7 Q. And who's the operations manager? 7 your deep draft vessel channel, the more
8 A. Currently, that is Richard Entwistle. 8 problems you have in controlling its depth,
9 Q. Okay. Richard Entwistle. 9 because of shoaling.
10 A. Correct. 10 A. Well, it's because it's open to winter
11 Q. Now, that would be 13 to 14 million a 11 storms, it's open to tropical events --
12 year for how long, as far back as you can 12 Q. For whatever reason.
13 remember? 13 A. Any type of storm event. Yes, it's
14 A. I'd say sometime from around -- I'm 14 wide open to material being moved around in the
15 not sure -- there was a spreadsheet at one time 15 sound.
16 or a plot I got one time from the former 16 Q. Right. All right. And I imagine that
17 manager Mr. Edmond Russo, and I don't recall 17 would be a reason for putting it through marsh
18 exactly what year, but I don't think that 18 land as opposed to putting it through Lake
19 was -- whether that was from the sixties, I 19 Borgne, for example.
20 don't recall exactly, or whether it was from 20 A. I mean, there are a number of things
21 the seventies. I'm not sure. 21 that are looked at when you evaluate a route.
22 Q. All right. Well, that's the other 22 It gets down to -- there are environmental
23 thing I want to ask your counsel to provide to 23 issues, cultural, you know, fishery habitat,
24 us is whatever data you have of cost per year 24 things like that. There is also an hydraulics
25 of dredging. The reason I'm asking you is, it 25 issue as far as shoaling patterns, in other
Page 195 Page 197
1 seems to me like in all of these discussions 1 words, wind, waves, et cetera.
2 regarding rocks on both sides, or let's just 2 Q. And also economic interests, for
3 say shore protection -- 3 example if you want to set up a place to put
4 A. Uh-huh. 4 some docks and so on. Correct?
5 Q. -- there's a savings associated with 5 A. If you want to, yes. Correct.
6 the shore protection based on an estimate of 6 Q. Okay. Mr. Broussard, I thank you very
7 the reduced dredging costs because of 7 much for your patience with me today, and I
8 controlling erosion. Is that fair? 8 don't have any further questions. Thank you,
9 A. That would be fair to say, yes. 9 sir.
10 Q. Okay. And so, and without going into 10 A. It been a pleasure working with you.
11 any specifics, because neither you or I have 11 Q. Good. Thank you.
12 the patience right now to do that, but if you 12 MR. LAMBERT:
13 spend some money on shore protection, then the 13 Any other questions?
14 likely -- or the estimated benefit would be 14 MR. BRUNO:
15 that you wouldn't have to spend quite as much 15 Nobody else is permitted to ask
16 on maintenance dredging. 16 any questions other than the
17 Is that part of the benefit? 17 government.
18 A. In general, that's correct. But that 18 MS. SOJA:
19 is not necessarily the case for this particular 19 I don't have any questions.
20 project here. 20 MR. LAMBERT:
21 Q. Okay. And is that because you'd have 21 Oh, you do, too, but you're not
22 to then maintain the shore protection? 22 going to ask them right now.
23 A. Well, the thing is, a lot of the 23
24 channel is exposed in open waters of Breton 24
25 Sound and the bar channel in the Gulf of 25
50 (Pages 194 to 197)

Page 198
1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR.,
4 do hereby certify that the foregoing testimony
5 was given by me, and that the transcription of
6 said testimony, with corrections and/or
7 changes, if any, is true and correct as given
8 by me on the aforementioned date.
9
10 ______________ _________________________
11 DATE SIGNED RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR.
12
13 _______ Signed with corrections as noted.
14
15 _______ Signed with no corrections noted.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 DATE TAKEN: March 31st, 2008
Page 199
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 I, JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR,
3 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
4 of Louisiana, do hereby certify that the
5 aforementioned witness, after having been first
6 duly sworn by me to testify to the truth, did
7 testify as hereinabove set forth;
8 That said deposition was taken by me
9 in computer shorthand and thereafter
10 transcribed under my supervision, and is a true
11 and correct transcription to the best of my
12 ability and understanding.
13 I further certify that I am not of
14 counsel, nor related to counsel or the parties
15 hereto, and am in no way interested in the
16 result of said cause.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 ____________________________________
24 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
25 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
51 (Pages 198 to 199)

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181:22 187:10 95:6,14,18 103:17 187:7 wilderness 168:1

Page 223
Wildlife 167:20,22 197:10 108:17 110:4,24 1(c) 78:20 171 4:25

WILKINSON 1:7 workload 16:12 115:14 119:23 1-B 51:24 86:23 176 5:1
William 47:11 wouldn't 9:24 32:7 122:11 152:17,211-C 92:15,17 18 93:2,3,4 177:23
wind 168:20 197:1 32:16 34:12 91:1 176:3 183:4 1.04 120:14 18th 111:22 149:14
winter 168:21 143:18,20,22 years-ish 101:17 1:12,000 183:4 185 5:2
196:10 195:15 yellow 83:11,12 1:2 24:14 42:15 1869 169:1
witness 6:4,25 7:3 writing 44:2 48:4 130:20 133:3 79:11 189 5:3
10:11 27:2 29:20 187:15 143:14 10 4:9,20 126:2,4 19.5 169:5
30:2 72:3 83:25 written 47:25 128:15 142:6 191 5:4
86:19 99:21 130:5 104:5 111:23 Z 10:30 72:4 1945 77:9
131:20 132:7 119:7,8 zero 15:24 89:2,19 100 15:7 125:17 1950 11:15
198:1 199:5 wrong 39:6 87:2,4 90:1,10,11,14,15 1000 89:10 1956 20:12 22:10
wobbly 140:3,4 87:6,9 94:6 105:16,17 101 4:17 33:22
143:14 zip 51:22 11 4:21 148:14,17 1957 23:9
woman 72:10 X zone 69:17 110 4:18 1958 39:21 51:24
wonder 34:16 X 4:1,1,6,6 12 120:13 159:4 1959 80:19
words 10:24 13:8 xeroxed 21:9 $ 166:8 170:11 1966 91:20 96:20
17:25 27:9 28:25 $2,095,000 120:13 187:17 116:24
31:10,13,20 32:16 Y $2,228,000 120:13 12(a) 4:23 170:12 1968 149:11 152:13
40:14,18 42:13,21 yard 74:10,11,12 $2,591,000 120:7 170:16 1969 135:19 137:19
49:11,14 56:2 yards 97:11 189:19 $2,724,000 120:7 12(b) 4:24 170:24 176:19
58:4,5,6 60:13 190:4 122 4:19 1975 167:23
yeah 13:3,25 14:3 #
61:1,2,16 63:13 126 4:20 1978 149:14
64:6 65:24 69:4 26:13 27:3 29:19 #75005 1:23 199:25 13 4:25 171:6,17 1980 16:20,22
73:12,14 74:16 38:7 39:9 47:1 174:14 194:11 101:22 149:25
50:12 51:19 52:7 0
75:5 90:21 94:16 14 5:1 128:14 176:2 152:21 154:13
95:24 105:14 68:16 72:4 74:18 0 88:2 90:2 94:24 176:6 179:7,8 173:13
75:2 82:23 88:17 95:17
110:23 125:7 05-4182 1:5 194:11 1984 114:6
134:13 142:17 91:12 92:7,24 14.8 93:14 1985 169:1,6
100:1 103:1 06-2286 1:8
143:4 146:19 14.9 97:13 1988 110:3 111:7
154:20 156:10 108:22 121:15 1 140 25:10,13 30:7 114:11 115:14
161:11,24 162:5 126:23 140:7 35:17,18,20,21 117:3 119:20
1 4:9 10:11,15
162:14 165:10,13 148:22,22 154:24 36:4,14 120:1 164:8 165:4
29:14 30:25 32:6
180:1,5 186:20 157:19 168:6 140-foot 28:15 29:3 1990 109:10,13
35:6,9 41:13
188:3,11 190:2 170:2 172:4 148 4:21 1994 122:10
52:14 53:6 54:5
197:1 175:19 176:25
66:5 80:23 89:20 15 5:2 34:24 93:11 1996 169:6 176:4
work 17:13 39:22 186:15 93:14 181:20 1997 168:25
92:15 105:10
64:15 66:2 72:13 year 16:19,24,25 185:1 1999 101:5,14,23
112:18 113:2,4
95:6 96:6,10 23:10 65:19,20
119:21 120:12,14 1500 89:10 108:16
100:10,12 102:3,5 97:11 169:3,5,8,9 1504 7:2
120:19 122:23
135:13 138:3,22 175:3 181:20 159 4:22 2
123:16 124:25
140:25 181:11 188:4 193:23 16 5:3 34:20 36:17 2 4:10 13:9 21:1,3
142:5 148:16
188:9 191:23 194:12,18,24 189:16 21:15,16,18 22:1
150:22,23,23
192:16,25 years 14:16 16:11 160 105:15 24:2 26:2 32:7
151:3 154:8
working 17:25 17:25 44:12 45:13 17 5:4 93:2 190:24 38:16 39:8,15
162:16 167:17
24:12 60:18 102:6 73:23 101:18 191:10 41:5,13 42:5,7,18
177:22 183:3
131:22 146:22 102:18 104:3 170 4:23,24 48:19,21 50:9,10
191:1

Page 224
52:10,14 53:6 3 4:11 10:12 36:12 161:18 162:9,23 6 76 39:24 101:20

56:14,22 58:24 51:23 52:2 53:14 4(b) 4:14 67:14,166 4:16 35:3 81:12 78 4:15 152:17,23
59:1 69:14 71:24 53:23 54:1,3,5,14 68:4 71:17,19,23 85:12,14 92:6,7 79 183:5
80:13,24,25 89:21 55:1 58:17 67:21 4(c) 4:22 159:6,13 96:17 124:21
96:23,23 98:25 78:16 81:8 85:25 4.9 169:3 8
125:21
105:10 113:17 86:23 91:5 92:21 40 35:6,9,18,22,236.6 169:9 8 4:18 110:7,9,10
116:16 117:7 92:22,25 102:22 43:20 48:18 56:12
60 122:24 123:2,19 112:23,25 117:7
119:22 120:19 108:16 112:5 56:13 57:6,11 124:3,17 133:5 119:22 164:9
122:24 123:22 120:3,14,19 58:24 59:1 105:10 172:1 182:2 80 35:15 39:25 40:1
125:1 149:9,16 122:25 123:24 144:3 600 79:13,19,25 101:15,16 105:13
151:22 152:13 124:8,16 125:1,16 40-foot 25:11 80:5 173:15
155:16 162:16 3rd 167:23 400 64:5,9 62 133:16 82 183:5
167:4 171:24 3.6 97:13,21 42 21:5 43:25 44:163 88:17 83 183:5
2(b) 70:7 71:21 30 121:3 171:12 48:5,11,12,18 650 42:1 85 4:16
170:21 30th 111:7,23 56:8,10 57:11,1166 4:13 88:7,8,20 855 2:13
2-foot 56:11 30(b)(6) 1:10 58:20 88:22 89:25 90:1 86 183:5
20 93:19 123:20 31 101:18,19,21 42-foot 49:5 90:3,9,16 95:6 88 173:22
20.2 97:9,13 121:4 425 2:19 660 105:15,17,22 888 3:6
200 60:10 31st 1:16 198:25 44 56:11 120:25 67 4:14
200-foot 64:10 35 121:6,9 47 124:19 133:6 9
68 88:25 152:16 9 4:19 86:4 91:10
2000 32:23 146:8 36 23:15,21 41:6 181:23 182:1 183:5
2001 184:23 185:14 43:13,20 48:12,19 91:12 120:4 122:4
68.5 89:4 122:6,13 135:14
2002 175:3 189:8 48:21 56:15 80:10 5
680 116:13 144:10 164:9
20044 3:8 87:14,15 116:16 5 4:15 78:19,22 165:22
2005 83:13 186:25 87:18 123:1 125:1 69 88:25 89:1 136:5 90 173:16
2008 1:16 198:25 36-foot 48:10 159:8 186:12,15 92 183:5
176:21 93 171:12 173:10
202-616-4289 3:9 36.4 87:15 500 20:22 23:11
21 4:10 93:20 36.43 84:12 87:17 41:6 54:8 57:14 7 173:21
23 114:20 117:22 38 48:19,20 57:1 79:12,14,23 80:1 7 4:5,17 30:25 93-622 167:24
122:25 124:4,13 122:19 80:22 89:10 34:20 35:3 100:24 94 135:14
124:17,19,23 39 84:13 86:13 105:10 116:15 101:8 110:5 120:3 96 177:13
130:22 172:1 91:17 144:4 120:8,11,23,23,24 982,000 97:11
182:1 39.01 86:12 504-525-1335 2:15 120:24 985-651-6101 2:21
23.2 82:1 84:11 504-581-1750 2:8 7.2 33:24 99 173:16,17,18
24 130:22 4 504-862-2843 3:16 700-foot 116:14
240 27:11 4 4:12 26:11,13 51.50 160:7 70062 7:3
25 45:13 130:22 29:14 43:20 48:21 51.500 160:7,7 70068 2:20
250 57:14 60:4 53:12,16,23 55:1 52 4:11 701 2:6
250-foot 61:10 58:15 66:9,10,10 52.500 160:7 70113 2:14
26 130:22 120:15,19 122:25 5200 160:7 70118-3651 1:15
27 122:25,25 123:2 123:2 124:2,21 53 4:12 3:15
124:3,4,12,13,23 125:1 149:10,16 55 131:24 132:12 70130 2:7
27.3 169:8 150:20,22 155:15 568.3 169:2 702(C) 21:4
28 168:3 159:6 166:11 57 23:10 73 183:5
29 22:10 168:3 167:1 58 78:15 7400 1:14 3:14
4(a) 4:13 66:11,17 59 78:20 75 15:7
3 161:13,16,16,18 59.4 181:24 182:2 755,000 97:11

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RICHARD WARREN BROUSSARD, JR.

IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

Rule 30(b)(6) Deposition of the U.S.

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

27 (Pages 102 to 105)

28 (Pages 106 to 109)

29 (Pages 110 to 113)

30 (Pages 114 to 117)

31 (Pages 118 to 121)

32 (Pages 122 to 125)

33 (Pages 126 to 129)

34 (Pages 130 to 133)

35 (Pages 134 to 137)

36 (Pages 138 to 141)

37 (Pages 142 to 145)

38 (Pages 146 to 149)

39 (Pages 150 to 153)

40 (Pages 154 to 157)

41 (Pages 158 to 161)

42 (Pages 162 to 165)

43 (Pages 166 to 169)

44 (Pages 170 to 173)

45 (Pages 174 to 177)

46 (Pages 178 to 181)

47 (Pages 182 to 185)

48 (Pages 186 to 189)

49 (Pages 190 to 193)

50 (Pages 194 to 197)

51 (Pages 198 to 199)

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

140:6 161:12 164:8 111:24 116:1,18 beneficial 158:4,8 black 129:25

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

close 114:14,16 72:13 183:20 65:18,20,21 72:20 32:14,15 36:11

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

160:4,16,19,20 130:2 131:5 76:2 deal 66:22 75:9 75:5 164:15

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

116:4 127:17,19 kinds 108:9 knowledges 108:8 110:12 112:24 23:10

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

193:12 156:8 159:7 178:8 104:11 113:9,14 138:21 83:19,21 84:19

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

113:11 114:21 112:7,9 171:13 127:16 175:8 177:12 148:7 149:3

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

139:12 145:16 plots 63:21 preexisting 132:3 174:24,25 111:14

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

reported 1:21 77:9 168:12 70:21 72:9,17 riprap 106:22 196:21

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

Wildlife 167:20,22 197:10 108:17 110:4,24 1(c) 78:20 171 4:25

JOHNS, PENDLETON & ASSOCIATES 800 562-1285

52:10,14 53:6 3 4:11 10:12 36:12 161:18 162:9,23 6 76 39:24 101:20