Escolar Documentos
Profissional Documentos
Cultura Documentos
th
2013
Trial video Exhibits http://youtu.be/"at2.us=<F.
Michael Joseph Jackson Jr (rince! lainti""
$ire%t exami&atio& by 'r. Pa&ish.
(. 'i)ht #a&t to move that mi%ropho&e *ust a little bit %loser so #e %a& hear you. +a& you hear
me ,K-
.. /es.
(. +a& you state your 0ull &ame 0or us-
.. 'i%hael 1oseph 1a%2so&3 1r
(. .&d are you &amed a0ter your 0ather-
.. ,ri)i&ally 4 #as &amed a0ter my 0amily &ame3 Pri&%e3 but #he& my brother #as bor&3 #e
&amed him Pri&%e3 a&d 4 #as &amed a0ter my 0ather.
pro)rammers #ho pro)ram the robot3 a&d #e %ompete i& a &atio&al %ompetitio&. 4 )o to Ee)as
every year.
(. Ho# has your team do&e-
.. !ast year #e %ame i& se%o&d out o0 F3 s%hools. !ast year #e did&6t do so #ell. 5e had
%ha&)e o0 0a%ulty3 so #e ad*usted to that.
(. 7o you blame it o& the %oa%h-
.. /eah.
(. That happe&s. Ho# is your )rade poi&t avera)e i& s%hool-
.. 4 have a 3.F= D. P. ..
(. Ho# did you do last semester-
.. 4 mai&tai&ed the same avera)e #ith a 3.F= D. P. ..
(. 4s lear&i&) importa&t to you-
.. 4t is3 be%ause it6s somethi&) my dad tau)ht me to do3 is everythi&) is a lear&i&) experie&%e.
(. $o you #a&t to )o to %olle)e-
.. 4 do. 4 #a&t to )o to B.7.+. 0or 0ilm a&d busi&ess3 or 4 mi)ht ta2e me%ha&i%al s%ie&%e a&d
busi&ess.
(. 8o#3 you me&tio&ed this about 0ilmma2i&). Ho# did you be%ome i&terested i& it-
.. 5he& 4 #as little3 #e used to ma2e little movies #ith my dad. 'y dad used to tea%h me ho#
to 0i&d shots a&d ho# to study the 0ilms3 the )reat o&es3 as he %alled them3 a&d 0i)ured... .&d 4
al#ays #a&ted to %reate stories a&d movies.
(. 5he& you say C0i&d shots3C #hat do you mea& by that-
.. 'y dad3 #he& 4 #as little3 )ave me a &e%2la%e that had a %amera 0i&der o& it. 4 do&6t 2&o#
#hat it6s %alled3 but it #as a %amera le&s that you %ould use to 0i&d %ertai& shots to sho# ho# the
li)ht %omes i&.
(. 5hat is it that6s importa&t i& 0i&di&) a shot-
.. /ou have to have bala&%e3 ho# a perso& loo2s i& the shot3 ho# the ba%2)rou&d loo2s3 the
li)ht %o&trasts3 a&d #hat the #at%her 0eels or vie#s.
.. 4 lived there u&til 4 #as six years old. .&d the& #e moved be%ause o0... 9rom #hat 4 2&o#
a&d #hat 4 #as told3 there #as some %ompli%ated... .0ter #e 0i&ished the %ourt %ase3 4 believe
there #as %ompli%atio&s #ith poli%e that #e&t o& i& the house3 a&d 4 )uess they rui&ed it 0or my
dad.
(. .ll ri)ht. 46m )oi&) to sho# you exhibit :>23 #ho is that-
.. That6s my dad a&d me.
(. 5hat are you doi&) there-
.. He #as playi&) the pia&o3 a&d 4 #as tryi&) to play #ith him.
(. $o you li2e musi%-
.. 4 do.
(. $o you #a&t to )et i&to musi%-
.. 4 %a& &ever play a& i&strume&t3 a&d 4 de0i&itely %a&&ot si&). That6s somethi&) that my dad
#as the best at.
(. He did&6t )ive that to you-
.. 8o.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>3. 5ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. That6s me3 a&d 4 thi&2 my sister.
(. $o you remember that day-
.. 8o.
(. ,K. .ll ri)ht. !et me sho# you :>G. 5ho is i& that pi%ture-
(. /ou al#ays seem to be dressed up. 4s that... .re you a dress<up 2i&d o0 )uy3 or #hy is that-
.. 7ome days my dad #ould ta2e us out a&d ta2e pi%tures. He #ould say3 "when you grow up
and you have kids, you can show them and say this is what you looked like when you were little.
"
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>F. 5ho is that-
.. That6s my sister.
(. That6s Paris-
.. /es.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :>;. 5ho is that-
.. That6s me a&d my sister. .&d i0 4 remember %orre%tly3 it6s ri)ht outside the trai& statio& that6s
&amed a0ter my )ra&dmother.
.. 8i%2&ame-
.. 5e %all him mo&2ey.
(. .ll ri)ht. 7o it #as you a&d mo&2ey o& the video or o& the so&) #ith your dad-
.. /es.
(. !et6s see :G2. Ha video %lip #as playedI
.. that6s mo&2ey a&d me.
(. a&d you-
.. .&d that6s 8everla&d.
(. .&other si&)i&) debut-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. 4s that it-
.. /es3 that #as about it.
(. 8o#3 a0ter you lived at 8everla&d3 #here did you )o-
.. 5e traveled 0or a little bit. 4 %a&6t remember exa%tly #hi%h pla%e %ame 0irst. 4 do 2&o# #e
#e&t to ?ahrai& a&d 4rela&d3 the middle east area3 li2e $ubai a&d 4rela&d. 4 remember stayi&) i&
.spe& a&d 8e# /or2 0or a little bit a&d the& to Ee)as.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy you traveled so mu%h-
.. 'y dad had a lot o0 busi&ess he #as doi&) other tha& musi%3 but some o0 it i&volved musi%
overseas. .&d the middle east... 4rela&d #as musi% middle east #as more busi&ess deals he had.
.&d he al#ays brou)ht us3 his 2ids3 #ith him be%ause he &ever #a&ted to be a#ay 0rom us.
(. $id he ever )o o& lo&) trips a&d leave you )uys at home-
.. 8o. 8ot that 4 remember.
(. $o you li2e traveli&)-
.. /eah. 4 )ot it 0rom my dad.
(. .&d #he& you traveled3 #ho #ould travel #ith you-
.. 4t #ould be me3 my brother a&d sister3 a&d my dad #ith either the &a&&y at some times or
#ith a tea%her.
(. /ou remember #ho your &a&&y #as-
.. 4t %ha&)ed 0rom time to time3 but most o0 the time it #as Dra%e.
(. 5hat6s Dra%e6s last &ame-
.. J#aramba.
(. 4 #o&6t as2 you ho# to spell that. 5as edu%atio& a&d lear&i&) importa&t to your 0ather-
.. 4t #as al#ays importa&t. 40 #e #ere&6t i& s%hool #ith him3 #e #ould be i& s%hool #ith a
tutor3 or he #ould be tea%hi&) about somebody else6s %ultures3 reli)io&s or la&)ua)e so that #e
%ould lear& a&d u&dersta&d #hy it is buildi&)s are built that #ay3 or ho# it is that they i&tera%t
#ith ea%h other3 a&d be reli)iously respe%t0ul o0 everybody6s di00ere&t %ultures a&d di00ere&%es.
(. $id you have3 li2e3 a &ormal s%hool year-
.. /es. 4 started i& the 0all a&d #e&t to spri&)3 six hours a day3 i&%ludi&) P. E.
(. P. E. -
.. /es.
(. .ll ri)ht. $id your 0ather3 #as he i&terested i& #hat you #ere doi&) every day i& s%hool-
.. /es. He #a&ted to 2&o# #hat #e #ere lear&i&) a&d al#ays to @uestio&3 thi&2 0or ourselves3
&ot *ust be told #hat #as ri)ht. To al#ays as2 i0 #hat #e thou)ht to be true3 a&d he al#ays
#a&ted to 2&o# ho# #e #ere doi&) i& s%hool a&d ho# #e #ould use that to better the #orld.
(. 8o#3 other tha& lear&i&) i& s%hool3 did your 0ather try to tea%h you outside o0 s%hool-
.. .ll the time.
(. Ho#-
.. 40 somethi&) happe&ed to him3 or somethi&) happe&ed to us3 he #ould say3 Clear& 0rom your
mista2es. This is a lear&i&) experie&%e a&d &ever 0or)et. C
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you :G>3 a videotape. ?e0ore 4 do that3 did your 0ather a&d you ever3 #he&
you #ere you&)3 #rite a s%ree&play to)ether-
.. /es3 #e did.
.. 4 remember #eari&) the mas2s. 4 do&6t remember #here that #as ta2e&.
(. ,K. .&d did you... 5as that #he& you #ere outside-
.. 4t #as out i& publi%.
(. $id you ever #ear mas2s #he& you #e&t out i& publi%-
.. /es. 5he& 4 #as #ith my dad3 he used it to ma2e sure &obody 2&e# #hat #e a%tually
loo2ed li2e so i0 #e #e&t out #ithout him3 #e %ould have a &ormal %hildhood.
(. Ho# did you 0eel about that-
.. 5he& 4 #as little3 the mas2s #ere a&&oyi&) be%ause #e had these 0eathers i& our 0a%e3 or
they #ere hot. ?ut &o# that 4 )et 0ollo#ed by them all the time3 4 u&dersta&d #hy he did it.
(. 5as your dad prote%tive o0 you i& publi%-
.. Eery.
(. .ll ri)ht. /ou me&tio&ed 's. J#aramba #as your &a&&y.
.. /es.
(. $o you 2&o# ho# lo&) she #or2ed #ith you-
.. 7he #or2ed #ith my dad be0ore 4 #as bor&. 7he #or2ed 0or his produ%tio& %ompa&y. .&d
the& she later %ame o& as a &a&&y #he& 4 #as bor&... ,r 4 thi&2 #he& my sister #as bor&. 7o
#ith us probably 12 years.
(. ,K. !et me sho# you exhibit :F2. .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. 'y dad3 Dra%e a&d me.
(. .&d 4 assume Dra%e is i& the... 5hat do you %all it-... 1ea& *a%2et- 4s that #hat you %all it-
.. /es.
(. 4s that you #ith the mas2 o&-
.. 4 thi&2 so.
(. .ll ri)ht. !et6s see :F3. .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-
(. 8o#3 there6s a depositio& %lip played by .ED !ive i& this trial o0 your sister3 Paris. Have 4
sho#ed that... Have you see& it-
.. 4 have.
(. .&d Paris said some thi&)s that #ere&6t so &i%e about Dra%e. $id you see that-
.. 4 did.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy Paris #ould do that-
.. .0ter the death o0 my dad3 #e ea%h had our o#& di00i%ulties deali&) #ith it. 7he6s havi&) a
hard time ri)ht &o#. ?ut 4 *ust sa# her #ith Dra%e the other day3 a&d they #ere happy3 so...
(. .&d your sister... 5e6ll )et to that. 5as Dra%e at some time termi&ated by your 0ather-
.. /es3 she #as.
(. .&d do you 2&o# #he& that #as-
.. 4 do&6t remember.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy that #as-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o#. 9rom #hat 4 #as told3 she had some perso&al problems that she had to deal
#ith o& her o#&.
(. .0ter your 0ather passed a#ay3 did your )ra&dmother as2 Dra%e to %ome help #ith you-
.. /es3 she did.
(. .&d ho# #as Paris #he& she 0irst sa# Dra%e %ome ba%2-
.. 'e3 my brother a&d my sister #ere all happy to see a 0amiliar 0a%e.
(. 8o#3 4 #a&t to tal2 &o# about the time period o0 200;3 200= ,K- 4& 200; a&d 200=3 do you
2&o# #here you #ere livi&)-
.. 4 thi&2... 4 %a&6t remember3 but 4 #ould say the 'iddle East a&d 4rela&d3 traveli&) 0or a little
bit.
(. Traveli&)-
.. 4 thi&2.
(. $id you ever live i& !as Ee)as-
.. 5e did.
(. $o you 2&o#... /ou6re &ot )reat o& dates. $o you 2&o# approximately #he& that #as-
.. 4t #as be0ore #e moved to the ?el .ir hotel.
(. 7o let6s ba%2 up. ?e0ore you moved to the ?el .ir hotel3 you lived i& !as Ee)as-
.. /es. ,& palomi&o drive.
(. That6s a street i& !as Ee)as-
.. /es.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy you moved to !as Ee)as-
.. There #as a house out i& Ee)as that my dad #a&ted to buy 0or us. ?e%ause #e #ere
traveli&) all the time3 all o0 us3 me a&d my brother a&d sister3 #e said #e #a&ted a home to live
i&. .&d he sa# this house that the royal 0amily o0 ?ru&ei had built3 but they did &ot 0i&ish3 so he
#as )oi&) to buy it 0rom him. .&d that6s primarily #hy $r. Tohme #as o& the #or20or%e3 to )et
that house.
(. /ou remember a spe%i0i% +hristmas i& !as Ee)as #he& you a&d your brother a&d sister
re%eived a spe%ial prese&t3 a& a&imal3 0rom your 0ather-
.. /eah. 4t #as a do) &amed Ke&ya.
(. 5hat 2i&d o0 do)-
.. . %ho%olate labrador retriever #he& he #as puppy. He lost all o0 his #ei)ht3 but he #as
hus2y #he& #e )ot him.
(. $id your dad li2e do)s-
.. 'y dad #as s%ared o0 do)s. He #as terri0ied. ?ut he )ot him 0or us3 a&d he e&ded up li2i&)
Ke&ya. That6s the o&ly do) 46ll ever tou%h.
(. .re you a#are that your 0ather #rote a so&) about you a&d your sister %alled Cyou are my
li0eC-
.. /es.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you :GF. This is3 a)ai&3 that so&) #ith some photo)raphs that #e put to)ether
#ith you ,K- 40 you #a&t to %hime i& about the photos a&d tell us #hat6s happe&i&)3 that6s ,K.
(a vi#eo clip (as pla)e#& !
.. That6s me a&d my dad a&d my sister. That6s the pi%ture 0rom earlier. That #as my dad a&d
?la&2et. That #as my #hole 0amily.
(. 4s that Ke&ya-
.. /es.
(. 5ere you )uys happy-
.. Eery.
(. Ho# did you 0eel the&-
.. Eery happy.
(. Ho# did you 0eel #he& you a&d your brother a&d sister a&d 0ather #ere all livi&) to)ether i&
!as Ee)as-
.. That #as happy 0or us.
(. .&d3 &o#3 you told us that there %ame a time #he& you %ame ba%2 to !os .&)eles a&d that
you heard your 0ather #as )oi&) to )o o& a tour %alled CThis 4s 4t. C
.. 4 thou)ht it #as %alled the 02.
(. ,K. .&d the& you lived at a hotel 0or a #hile is that ri)ht-
.. /es3 4 did.
(. .&d the& did you move to a house-
.. /es. ,& +arol#ood.
(. $o you 2&o# the address-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# the &umbers. 4 *ust 2&o# it #as +arol#ood3 a&d 4 2&o# ho# to )et there.
(. +arol#ood. ,&ly o&e pla%e. $o you 2&o# arou&d #he& you moved there-
.. 4 2&o# it #as be0ore +hristmas.
(. /ou #ere there 0or +hristmas time-
.. /es.
(. ,K. 8o#3 did you ever )et to 2&o# a ma& &amed Tohme Tohme-
.. 4 did.
(. $id you also meet a ma& &amed Ja&dy Phillips-
.. /es.
(. $id you 2&o# a&ythi&) about the busi&ess deal i&volvi&) .ED .&d your 0ather-
.. 8o. ?ut 0rom #hat he told me3 he #as&6t happy #ith it.
(. .s 0ar as #hat the terms #ere3 all that...
.. 8o.
( That #as&6t somethi&) you #ere i&volved #ith-
.. 8o.
(. 8o#3 eve& thou)h you #ere you&)3 did your 0ather %o&0ide i& you at all about his deali&)s
#ith Ja&dy Phillips3 .ED !ive3 a&d $r. Tohme-
Mr& utna'% ob*e%tio&3 your ho&or. +alls 0or spe%ulatio& a&d hearsay.
Mr. anish: the @uestio& is Cdid he. C
Ju#$e% ,K. 1ust CyesC or C&o. C the #it&ess: yes.
(. .&d duri&) the time that you lived at +arol#ood3 #ho #as livi&) there-
.. 4t #as me3 my brother3 my sister a&d my dad. 'o&2ey #ould sometimes be livi&) there3 a&d
those are the o&ly people that #ould a%tually live there.
(. $id you have &a&&y-
.. 5e had 7ister Jose a&d Dra%e.
(. Ho# old #ere you-
.. Ex%use me-
(. Ho# old #ere you the&-
.. 12. 11 a&d 12.
(. .&d do you 2&o# #hether your 0ather #as ex%ited about the tour-
.. He #as very ex%ited about the tour3 be%ause he #as about to )o o& tour a)ai&. This #ould be
o&e o0... Probably the last time #e #ould be able to see him o& tour a&d that #e #ould be able to
see him per0orm.
(. .&d #ere you ex%ited about it-
.. 4 #as very ex%ited about it.
(. Had you ever see& your dad per0orm live be0ore-
.. 4 thi&2 o&%e #he& 4 #as little3 but it #as&6t at a& a)e to remember the #hole thi&).
(. $id your dad li2e to do rehearsals a&d prepari&)-
.. .ll the time.
(. $id there ever %ome a time #he& you believed your 0ather #as&6t happy #ith the #ay thi&)s
#ere )oi&)-
.. 5ith rehearsals-
(. /es.
.. He #ould %ome home 0rom rehearsals al#ays happy about ho# they #ere )oi&). He *ust
#ished he had more time 0or rehearsals a&d that he %ould have more rehearsals to #or2.
(. 8o#3 did you ever see your 0ather o& the pho&e be%ome upset-
.. . lot o0 times.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho he #as spea2i&) #ith-
.. 4t %ha&)ed. 'ost o0 the time it #as Ja&dy Phillips or $r. Tohme3 0rom #hat 4 2&o#. ,r he
had *ust )otte& o00 the pho&e3 a&d someo&e must have told him somethi&) about them.
(. 7o #he& your 0ather )ot o00 the pho&e3 did his demea&or... Ho# #as his demea&or-
.. He #ould )et o00 the pho&e. He #ould %ry sometimes. .&d a0ter he )ot o00 the pho&e #ith
them3 he #ould %ry.
(. 5as he upset-
.. /es. He #ould say3 Cthey6re )oi&) to 2ill me. They6re )oi&) to 2ill me. C
(. $id he ever %ome a&d lo%2 a&y rooms i& your house i& !as Ee)as-
.. 8o. He al#ays treated us i& the ope& #he& my dad #as there.
(. 4& the year 200:3 do you remember i0 you #ere livi&) i& the +arol#ood home at that time-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember #he& you #ere livi&) there-
.. Ex%use me-
(. 4 as2ed you that already. /ou do&6t remember #he&3 you 2&o# at least as o0 +hristmas<time3
you #ere livi&) there ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 5he& you #ere 0irst livi&) there3 #ould $r. 'urray %ome to the home-
.. 9irst it #as +heryl !ee #ho #ould %ome.
(. 5ho is +heryl !ee-
.. 4 thi&2 she6s a do%tor 0rom B.7 +. or B.+.!... .&d she #ould %ome to )ive my dad6s 4Es3
but o&ly i& the livi&) room.
(. .t some poi&t i& time3 did you &oti%e $r. 'urray #as arou&d more-
.. /es. .0ter #e did&6t see +heryl !ee.
(. .&d ho# o0te& #ould $r. 'urray %ome to your home-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 he #ould %ome over every day ex%ept 7u&day &i)ht.
(. $id a&y other do%tor %ome over a&d spe&d that mu%h time #ith your 0ather-
.. 8o.
(. 5ould $r. 'urray spe&d the &i)ht at your home-
.. 4& +arol#ood3 yes.
(. .&d #hat did you see $r. 'urray doi&)-
.. 4 &ever... 4& the be)i&&i&) #he& he #as do#&stairs3 4 sa# him )ivi&) my dad a& 4E i&*e%tio&
o0 %lear li@uid.
.. To my u&dersta&di&)3 it #as lo%2ed. 4 tried it o&%e3 a&d that6s #he& it #as lo%2ed.
(. $o you 2&o# #hy it #as lo%2ed-
.. 5he& 4 tried it3 he had bee& meditati&) over 72ype #ith a& 4&dia& spiritual healer3 4 thi&23
a&d it #as lo%2ed so he %ould 0o%us. .&d that6s #hat 4 heard.
(. .ll ri)ht. 72ype. 5hat is 72ype-
.. 4t6s li2e a video %o&0ere&%e %all.
(. 7o you %a&3 li2e3 )o o& a %omputer a&d have somebody o& #ith you-
.. /es.
(. .&d he #as doi&) meditatio& #ith a perso& 0rom 4&dia-
.. /es. 4 believe so.
(. 8o#3 did you ever see a&y type o0 medi%al e@uipme&t-
.. 4E holders a&d oxy)e& ta&2s.
(. 5here #ere the oxy)e& ta&2s-
.. They #ould either be do#&stairs by the 0ro&t o0 the stairs or out ba%2 by the se%urity o00i%e.
(. 5ere they bei&) hidde& a&y#here- 40 a&ybody #as loo2i&)3 %ould they see them-
.. They #ere ri)ht i& the 0ro&t o0 the house.
(. ?e0ore the +arol#ood home3 had you ever see& a&y oxy)e& ta&2s at a&y pla%e you6d lived
be0ore-
.. 8o.
(. 5ere you %o&%er&ed #he& you sa# $r. 'urray at your house so o0te&-
.. 8o. 4 #as 123 a&d to my u&dersta&di&)3 he #as supposed to 2eep... 'a2e sure my dad stayed
healthy.
(. 8o#3 $r. 'urray3 do you 2&o# #hether a&yo&e ever )ave him a&y payme&t or mo&ey-
.. 'y dad used to )ive me %ash3 a %ouple o0 hu&dreds3 a&d he used to say .ED. ... He 0eels so
bad 0or $r. 'urray be%ause .ED 4s&6t payi&) him. They6re supposed to3 but they have&6t paid
him yet3 so3 here3 ta2e him this. .&d my dad #ould )ive him li2e...
.. He #as )rabbi&) him by the ba%2 o0 the elbo#3 a&d they #ere really %lose3 a&d he #as
ma2i&) ha&d motio&s.
(. $id it surprise you-
.. /es3 a little.
(. 5here #as your 0ather at-
.. 4 believe he #as at rehearsals.
(. 5as this i& the day or the &i)httime-
.. +loser to the &i)ht. That6s #he& $r. 'urray %ame arou&d.
(. 8o#3 do you 2&o# exa%tly #hat day that #as-
.. 8o.
(. $o you have a re%olle%tio& o0 #he& it #as-
.. 5he& he %ame by himsel03 &o. ?ut #he& he %ame #ith the other me& a&d $r. Tohme3 4
remember it to be the &i)ht be0ore my dad died.
(. .&d there6s bee& testimo&y all over the pla%e. .re you absolutely sure that #as the day-
.. 4 am &ot. 4 %a&6t really remember. 4t #as either the &i)ht be0ore or t#o &i)hts be0ore.
(. Ho# old #ere you the&-
.. 12.
(. .ll ri)ht. 8o#3 #ere there other o%%asio&s #he& you sa# Ja&dy Phillips at your home-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember.
(. .ll ri)ht. ,ther tha& #hat you6ve already told us-
.. /es.
(. 8o#3 #he& you sa#... .t a&y time #he& 'r. Phillips #as there3 did you %o&ta%t your 0ather-
.. The &i)ht that 4 thi&2 #as be0ore he died3 4 %alled him up 0rom a se%urity pho&e.
(. ,K. $o&6t tell us #hat he said. 1ust3 did you %o&ta%t him-
.. /es.
(. ,K. $id you do somethi&)... Put that aside. $id you do a&ythi&) else 0or 'r. Phillips or
a&yo&e else he #as #ith at that time-
.. 4 %ame i&. .&d 4 as2ed them i0 he #ould li2e somethi&) to dri&2 or eat3 a&d they said &o.
?ut my dad al#ays told me to bri&) out3 li2e3 %hips or salsa or hors d6oeuvres3 somethi&) li2e
that. 7o 4 #e&t i& the 2it%he& to )et hors d6oeuvres 0or them3 %hips or salsa.
(. 4s that #he& you %alled your 0ather-
.. This #as be0ore... This #as a0ter 4 %alled him.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d do&6t tell me #hat he said3 but #hat did you do a0ter that-
.. 4 #e&t a&d )ot the %hips a&d salsa3 a&d the& Ja&dy Phillips #as tal2i&) to $r. Tohme a)ai& at
the bottom o0 the stairs3 )rabbi&) his elbo# a)ai& a&d tal2i&).
(. /ou mea& +o&rad 'urray- $r. 'urray-
.. /es. $r. 'urray.
(. /ou said $r. Tohme.
.. ,h. $r. 'urray.
(. /ou 2&o# i0 $r. Tohme3 is he a medi%al do%tor-
.. 9rom #hat 4 heard3 he6s &ot eve& a real do%tor.
(. 5ere you surprised that Tohme #as at your house-
.. 4 #as surprised that they #ere all at my house.
(. 5hy #ere you surprised that Tohme #as there-
.. ?e%ause 4 have&6t see& Tohme i& a #hile3 a&d3 4 mea&3 4 still did&6t li2e $r. Tohme.
(. 8o#3 let6s tal2 about 1u&e 200:. 4 2&o# you6re &ot )reat #ith dates3 a&d 4 2&o# you #ere 12
years old at that time. .s 0ar as you %ould tell3 ho# #as your 0ather6s health 0rom a 12<year<old
perspe%tive-
.. 9rom my perspe%tive ba%2 the&3 4 thou)ht he #as healthy. 4 did&6t see him eat a lot3 but that
#as somethi&)... He ate by himsel0 a lot3 so 4 did&6t 2&o# i0 he #as eati&) at rehearsals. 4 2&e#
he #as #or2i&) a lot. ?ut 4 loo2ed at pi%tures 0rom my )ra&dma a&d )ra&d0ather6s a&&iversary3
a&d he #as really3 really s2i&&y3 almost mal&ourished.
(. ,K. 4& the last part o0 his li0e3 last 0e# #ee2s3 did you &oti%e a&ythi&) u&usual about his
health-
.. 7ome days he #ould %ome do#&stairs a&d say he6s 0reeAi&) %old3 a&d it #as duri&) the
summer3 so 4 did&6t 2&o# #hy he #ould be %old. .&d some days he #ould say he6s hot. He
#as... His temperature3 body temperature #as up a&d do#&. His stre&)th #ould sometimes )ive
out. He #as de0i&itely &ot stro&) e&ou)h.
(. 8o#3 did you... $o you remember the last day that you sa# your 0ather alive-
.. /es.
(. .&d #he& #as that-
.. The day be0ore he died.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d do you remember your last %o&versatio&-
.. 4t #as #he& 4 tal2ed to him o& the pho&e about Ja&dy Phillips bei&) at the house.
(. The &ext day3 the 2>th3 did you ever lear& that somethi&) may be #ro&) #ith your 0ather-
.. +a& you repeat the @uestio&-
(. /eah. 7orry. The last day3 1u&e 2>th3 is that the day your 0ather passed a#ay-
.. /es.
(. $id you ever lear& that there may be somethi&) #ro&) #ith your 0ather-
.. 8o.
(. Ho# is it that you be%ame to 2&o# somethi&) u&usual #as o%%urri&)-
.. 4 #e&t do#&stairs i& the sitti&) room #ith 7ister Jose a&d my sister3 a&d 4 thi&2 my brother
#as there. .&d 4 heard s%reami&) upstairs. 7omebody bolted out o0 a door. .&d 4 heard
ru&&i&) do#& the ba%2 stairs3 a&d 4 ra& to the 2it%he& to see #hat #as )oi&) o&. .&d 4 sa# $r.
+o&rad3 li2e3 ru& ri)ht ba%2 up the stairs. .&d Kai #as loo2i&) &ervous3 a&d she said3 C$r.
+o&rad #a&ts you upstairs3C a&d .lberto *ust %ame i&side.
(. 5ho is .lberto-
.. The se%urity )uard.
(. .ll ri)ht.
.. .&d he had *ust %ome i&side the 2it%he&. .&d 4 ra& upstairs3 a&d 4 sa# $r. +o&rad doi&) %.
P. J. ,& my dad o& the bed.
(. .&d #hat did you see-
.. 'y dad #as ha&)i&) hal0#ay o00 the bed3 a&d his eyes 2i&d o0 rolled i& the ba%2 o0 his head3
a&d $r. +o&rad #as s%reami&) a&d doi&) +. P. J.
(. .&d #ho else #as there #ith you-
.. .lberto %ame i& the room a little bit later3 a&d #e #e&t do#&stairs. .&d the& my sister %ame
upstairs3 but #e #ere 2ept do#&stairs.
(. 5hat #as your sister doi&)-
.. 7%reami&) the #hole time3 sayi&) she #a&ted her daddy.
(. 5hat #as she s%reami&)-
.. 7he #as s%reami&) K sayi&) she #a&ts her daddy.
(. .&d #hat #ere you doi&)-
.. Bm3 4 #as #aiti&) at the bottom o0 the stairs %ryi&)3 #aiti&) 0or the ambula&%e.
(. $id you )o to the hospital-
.. /es.
(. Ho# did you )et to the hospital-
.. 5e #aited 0or the paramedi%s. The paramedi%s too2 my dad out i& a stret%her3 a&d #e
0ollo#ed them i& a %ar.
(. .&d #he& you )ot to the hospital3 did you do a&ythi&) to try to %om0ort your brother a&d
your sister-
.. 4 told my sister somethi&) that my dad al#ays told us that a&)els are still #at%hi&) over him3
a&d there have to be a&)els all over.
(. Ho# #ere you 0eeli&) the&-
.. ,ptimisti%.
(. $id you lear& eve&tually that your 0ather had passed a#ay-
.. /es.
(. Ho# did you lear& that-
.. 9ra&2 $ileo a&d $r. +o&rad %ame ba%2 i&to the room3 a&d $r. +o&rad said3 C7orry3 2ids.
$ad6s dead. C a&d 0ra&2 $ileo said he had a heart atta%2.
(. .&d #hat happe&ed-
.. 5e *ust %ried.
(. 5ho #as there #ith you-
.. 4& the room #as 7ister Jose3 my sister3 my brother a&d me3 se%urity )uard3 a&d $r. +o&rad
a&d 9ra&2 $ileo.
(. 46m &ot )oi&) to as2 a&y more about that. $o you remember there bei&) a memorial servi%e
0or your 0ather-
.. /es.
(. .&d did you )o to that-
.. 4 did.
(. 4 #a&t to sho# you exhibit :31 .&d #ho is i& that pi%ture-
.. 'e3 my brother a&d my sister.
(. 5here #as that ta2e&-
.. 4 thi&2 o& sta)e at the memorial servi%e.
(. $o you remember #hether your sister spo2e at the servi%e-
.. 7he did.
(. 5as that somethi&) that had bee& pla&&ed out-
.. 8o. 7he *ust )rabbed the mi% a&d *ust said somethi&).
(. !et me sho# you exhibit :G=. Ha video %lip #as played. I
(. 4s that #hat Paris said there-
.. /es.
(. 8o#3 a0ter your 0ather passed a#ay3 has it bee& a& ad*ustme&t 0or you a&d your brother a&d
your sister-
.. /es.
(. 5ho do you live #ith &o#-
.. Ji)ht &o# 4 live #ith my )ra&dma3 my %ousi& Tre&t3 a&d my brother a&d my sister.
(. .&d do you 2&o#3 #ithout telli&) us spe%i0i%ally #here you live3 #hat %ity do you live i&-
.. +alabasas.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho your prese&t )uardia&s are-
.. 'y %ousi& T1. .&d )ra&dmother3 Katheri&e.
(. 7ho# you a 0e# more pi%tures. Exhibit :FF .&d #hat6s the rail %ats-
.. 4 thi&2 it6s a mi&or lea)ue baseball team i& 4&dia&a.
(. .&d #ho is 0rom 4&dia&a-
.. 'y )ra&dma3 my dad3 a&d my #hole 0amily3 mostly.
(. /ou 2&o# #here i& 4&dia&a-
.. Dary.
(. .&d did you )o ba%2 to 4&dia&a-
.. 4 have.
(. .&d did you... 5as there a reaso& that you #e&t ba%2 to 4&dia&a-
.. There #as a memorial servi%e every day at the house at least every summer that my 0amily
)re# up i&3 a&d there6s a )ia&t sto&e ere%ted 0or my dad #ith #ords o& it. .&d the reaso& 4 #as
at the stadium #as3 4 #as thro#i&) the 0irst pit%h o0 the )ame o0 the seaso& at the rail %ats )ame.
(. !i2e a mi&or lea)ue baseball team i& Dary-
.. /es.
(. Ho# #as your pit%h-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o#.
(. $id it stri2e- Probably &ot3 huh- 8ever mi&d. !et6s )o to :F; 5ho is that-
.. That6s me at the %hildre&6s hospital that 4 volu&teer at.
(. !et6s loo2 at :F= $o you 2&o# #here that6s ta2e&- Tryi&) to remember-
.. /eah.
(. 9irst3 #ho6s i& the pi%ture-
.. 'y )ra&dmother3 my sister a&d my brother a&d me.
(. .ll ri)ht. 5e6ll %ome ba%2 to that all ri)ht- !et6s loo2 at :F: 5here is that-
.. That #as i& Derma&y at the ?ambi a#ards. 4 #as selli&) some o0 my dad6s dra#i&)s a&d
lyri%s that had dra#i&)s o& them 0or %harity. 4 #ore the exa%t same suit... 8ot the exa%t same3
but the style o0 suit that my dad #ore #he& he #e&t to that3 the ?ambi a#ards3 a lo&) time a)o.
(. .&d #ho #ere all the 2ids there-
.. They #ere 2ids 0or the %harity that #e #ere supporti&) out there.
(. !et6s see. .ll ri)ht. !et6s loo2 at :F... .%tually3 :;0 5here is that ta2e&-
.. .t some hotel i& Pasade&a3 4 thi&2. 4t6s #he& 4 #as doi&) my E i&tervie#s o0 the %ast a&d
%re# o0 oA.
(. 5hat is CEC-
.. E&tertai&me&t. 4t6s a tv %ha&&el3 4 believe3 a&d 4 #as doi&) a& i&tervie# o& the %ast a&d %re#
o0 oA3 a&d it #as 1ames 9ra&%o3 the dire%tor3 a&d "a2e. .&d that #as3 li2e3 my 0irst3 really3 debut
i& somethi&).
(. 7o #hy #ere you doi&) that-
.. 4 told my au&t that 4 #a&ted to #or23 a&d she brou)ht this3 a&d 4 #a&ted to do it be%ause 4
thou)ht it %ould be a )reat lear&i&) experie&%e a&d to try somethi&) &e#.
(. $id you li2e it-
.. /eah. That #as 0u&.
(. !et6s loo2 at :;1
(. .re you a&d your 0amily tryi&) to help her a&y #ay you %a&-
.. /es. Espe%ially my %ousi&3 T1.
(. .ll ri)ht. .&d ho# about3 does you or ?la&2et... /ou or Paris3 do you have birthday parties
a&ymore-
.. 'e a&d my sister3 #e do&6t %elebrate birthdays. 4t6s somethi&) #e o&ly did #ith our dad3 a&d
it #ould&6t be the same #ithout him.
(. 8o#3 ho# about ?la&2et- 8o#3 #e as2ed about him. $oes he ever have birthday parties-
.. /es3 he does.
(. $oes he li2e that-
.. /es.
(. +a& you *ust tell us3 #hat do you see that ?la&2et has lost #ith your 0ather-
.. Ji)ht &o# 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 ?la&2et realiAes #hat he lost be%ause he #as so you&). ?ut3 um3 4
mea&3 my brother is still )ro#i&) up3 *ust li2e 4 am3 a&d he does&6t have a 0ather to )uide him or
tell him3 li2e3 tell him #hat6s ri)ht 0rom #ro&). 4 mea&3 he has that3 but &othi&) li2e ho# my dad
#ould do it3 or someo&e to tal2 to about #he& he )oes to s%hool.
(. .re you all doi&) the best that you %a&-
.. /es.
(. $o you miss your dad a lot-
.. /es.
(. 4s there ever a day that you do&6t-
.. 8o.
Mr. anish: &o 0urther @uestio&s. Tha&2 you.
Ju#$e% %ross<exami&atio&.
Mr& utna'% tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Cross*e+a'ination ,) Mr& utna'
Mr& utna'% so 0or %omplete&ess3 si&%e they6ve re@uested the %omplete&ess idea3 #e6re )oi&)
to sho# all o0 it3 your ho&or. 4 *ust #a&t to 2&o# i0 #e6re )oi&) 0or#ard #he& #e have similar
ob*e%tio&s-
Mr. anish: #ell...
Ju#$e% let6s ta2e it o&e at a time.
Mr& utna'% ,K. Tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% let6s ta2e it o&e at a time. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y bei&)
said:I
"did you ever see your father pay Dr. Conrad Murray? "Ive seen him a couple times. "and did
he pay him in cash? "this is in the... he did only a couple times in the Carolwood house, but
mostly for... In !egas. "and in the Carolwood house, did he pay him in cash, do you know?
"he... Dr. Conrad never took cash. "what did he take? "he never took cash from my dad. "ike,
my dad would give... #e would give us cash and say, give it to Dr. Murray, and then Dr.
Murray would only take a portion of it."
(. .ll ri)ht. 7o let me as2 you the @uestio& a)ai&. $oes that re0resh your re%olle%tio& as to
#hether or &ot your 0ather ever paid $r. +o&rad 'urray %ash i& !as Ee)as-
.. 4& !as Ee)as3 my dad did pay him o&%e.
(. 4t #as o&%e-
.. /es. ?e0ore #e started the busi&ess %o&tra%t.
(. 5hat do you mea& by that3 sir-
.. ?e0ore 4 #as a#are that he had si)&ed to do the 02 are&as.
(. Bh<huh.
.. That6s #he& $r. +o&rad #as treati&) us.
(. 7o that #as i& !as Ee)as ri)ht3 sir-
.. /es.
(. .&d at that time your 0ather paid him i& %ash-
.. /es3 he did.
(. .&d you sa# your 0ather do that-
.. /es. ?ut li2e 4 said3 most o0 the time $r. +o&rad #ould&6t ta2e it3 a&d he #ould )ive it to us
to )ive to him.
(. 7o #he& you said the a&s#er3 a&d #he& 4 said3 Ca&d did he pay him i& %ash-C your a&s#er
#as Cthis #as i& the... he did a %ouple o0 times i& the +arol#ood house3 but mostly 0or i& Ee)as.
C the Cmostly 0orC #as *ust o&e time-
.. /es3 0rom #hat 4 remember.
(. .&d you i&di%ated somethi&) there. 4 as2ed at a&other poi&t i& your depositio&3 4 said... 7o 4
#as tryi&) to u&dersta&d the di00ere&%e bet#ee& payi&) %ash i& Ee)as a&d payi&) %ash i& !os
.&)eles. $o you remember me as2i&) you #hether your 0ather #ould )ive it to him there i&
Ee)as3 a&d do you remember telli&) me3 Cyes3 i& Ee)as he #ould also )ive him %ashC- $o you
remember sayi&) that-
.. 8ot #ord 0or #ord3 but 4 remember sayi&) somethi&) li2e that3 yes.
(. ?ut #he& you said those #ords3 those are the exa%t #ords3 you *ust mea&t that o&e time-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 yes.
(. .&d do you remember #hether your 0ather ever paid $r. +o&rad 'urray #ith %he%2s-
.. 4 do&6t thi&2 so.
(. .&d #hy do you &ot thi&2 so-
.. ?e%ause 4 &ever sa# it.
(. 7o you &ever sa# your dad pay #ith %he%2s-
.. 8o.
(. .&d i& all the times that you #ere treated by $r. +o&rad 'urray i& !as Ee)as3 the o&ly time
you ever sa# your dad pay $r. +o&rad 'urray #as o&%e i& %ash-
.. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 yes.
(. 8o#3 did your 0ather ever pay $r. +o&rad 'urray #ith %ash i& !os .&)eles-
.. 8ot dire%tly.
(. 5hat do you mea&3 C&ot dire%tlyC-
.. He &ever )ave him the %ash3 that 4 %a& remember. He al#ays had us )ive it to him.
.. 1ust %ash.
(. .&d *ust ha&d you %ash-
.. /es.
(. .&d you said hu&dreds-
.. +ouple hu&dreds.
(. 5ere these li2e L100 bills-
.. /es.
(. 7o he #ould )ive you L100 bills a&d as2 you to )ive them to $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. /es.
(. .&d #ould it be... 5as it %lipped to)ether- 5as it i& a&ythi&)-
.. 7ometimes he #ould #rap a rubber ba&d arou&d them.
(. .&d so i0 4 u&dersta&d it3 there #ould be bills3 a&d they #ould be rolled up li2e i& a #ad-
.. 8o. 4t #as 0lat.
(. 9lat #ith a ba&d arou&d it-
.. /es.
(. 7o you said it #as li2e this 0lat #ith a ba&d Hi&di%ati&)I3 a&d you #ould ha&d it over to him-
.. !i2e a rubber ba&d.
(. .&d that #as somethi&) that he #ould as2 you to do #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray %orre%t-
.. 'e a&d my sister.
(. .&d your sister-
.. /es.
(. 7o the t#o o0 you at times #ould )ive this sta%2 o0 %ash #ith the rubber ba&ds to $r. +o&rad
'urray-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 you #ould %o&sider it a sta%23 but yes.
.. /es.
(. .s2 you a little bit about #ho #or2ed there.
.. ,K.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho Kai +hase is-
.. 7he #as the %he0.
(. $id she #or2 there at +arol#ood-
.. /es.
(. .&d do you remember there bei&) a time #he& she #or2ed there3 a&d she #as &ot there a&y
lo&)er3 a&d she %ame ba%2 to #or2 a)ai&-
.. /es.
(. .&d did someo&e... $id you have a %he0 i& that time i& bet#ee&-
.. +he0 i& the house #ho #or2ed 0or you all bet#ee& the times #here Kai +hase #as there-
.. 4 thi&2 #e did. 4t6s a little bit va)ue3 but 4 thi&2 #e did3 yeah.
(. .&d #as it a ma&-
.. /es3 it #as.
(. .&d so 's. +hase #or2ed there 0or a period o0 time3 a&d the& there #as a di00ere&t %he0 #ho
#or2ed there #ho #as a ma&3 a&d the& 's. +hase %ame ba%2 %orre%t-
.. 5ell3 the ma&3 he )ot 0ired3 or he le0t3 li2e3 maybe a mo&th be0ore Kai %ame ba%2.
(. 7o do you remember that #as the se@ue&%e: she #as there3 the& he #as there3 the& she %ame
ba%2-
.. /es.
(. 5as 's. +hase allo#ed upstairs-
.. 8o.
(. This %he03 do you remember the ma&6s &ame #ho #as a %he0 i& bet#ee&-
(. 'r. 1a%2so&3 is this the se%o&d 0loor o0 your home i& +arol#ood-
.. /es.
(. .&d you had me&tio&ed that the bedrooms to your ri)ht #as yours3 your brother6s a&d your
sister6s %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d is the bedroom to the le0t3 is that your dad6s bedroom3 the o&e that says3 CmasterC-
.. /es.
(. .&d ri)ht up above3 there6s this Cse%o&d 0loor bedroom 2C-
.. /es.
(. 4s that #here $r. +o&rad 'urray treated your dad-
.. /es.
(. .&d you told us a little bit about lo%2s3 a&d the bedrooms bei&) lo%2ed. This bedroom had a
lo%2 o& it %orre%t-
.. 4t did.
(. .&d #he& you 0irst %ame to u&dersta&d there #as
.. !o%2 o& that bedroom3 is that be%ause your dad #as there bei&) treated by $r. +o&rad
'urray-
.. 8o.
(. That6s &ot the 0irst time. 5he& #as the 0irst time-
.. 5he& he #as meditati&) #ith the 4&dia& that 4 %a&6t remember his &ame.
(. 7o that #as the 0irst time you %ame to u&dersta&d there #as a lo%2 o& that room-
.. /es.
(. $o you remember telli&) me somethi&) di00ere&t at the depo-
.. 4 do&6t.
(. ,K. 46m *ust )oi&) to sho# you somethi&). 4t6s 0rom your depo3 a&d it6s pa)e 203/203 to 20G3
li&e 1.
Mr. anish: #hat6s the li&e... ,K. 4 do&6t have a&y problem #ith him playi&) that3 but it6s &ot
%o&siste&t. 4 2&o# he %a& play his depositio& 0or a&y purpose. That6s 0i&e.
Ju#$e% you may.
Mr& utna'% *ust so 4 %a& as2 a @uestio&.
Mr. anish: #ell3 his @uestio& #as3 Cdo you remember telli&) me somethi&) di00ere&t i& the
depositio&3C a&d 4 thi&2 that misstates the testimo&y.
Mr& utna'% a&d he #ill be able to a&s#er that.
Ju#$e% ,K. 5ell3 let6s see #hat it is.
Mr& utna'% tha&2 you3 your ho&or. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y
bei&) said: I
"I believe so. "and how did you know the second floor bedroom had a lock? "because the first
time he went to sleep with Dr. Conrad, we were trying to play hide and go seek, and when I tried
to open the door and hide in it, it was locked. "
(. 7o this tal2s about the idea that you 2&e# the se%o&d 0loor bedroom had a lo%2 be%ause the
0irst time he #e&t to sleep #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray3 you #ere playi&) hide a&d see23 a&d tried to
ope& the door to hide i& the room3 a&d that #as lo%2ed-
.. /es.
(. .&d that6s a di00ere&t time tha& the other time %orre%t-
.. /es. 4t #as a0ter.
(. 7o the 0irst time3 the&3 #as&6t here... Ho# you %ame to 2&o# that the se%o&d 0loor bedroom
had a lo%2 #as &ot this time3 but sometime be0ore- That6s ho# you %ame to 2&o# this-
.. .ll the bedrooms had a lo%2 o& it. 4 *ust did&6t 2&o# he #ould lo%2 it. 4 2&e# he lo%2ed it
0or meditatio& 4 did&6t 2&o# he #ould lo%2 it 0or medi%atio&.
(. 46m sorry. 5hat #as that-
.. 9or medi%atio& #he& he #as bei&) treated by $r. +heryl !ee3 he &ever had a loo2 o& that
door. There #ere &o doors3 a&d he did it i& the ope&. The same thi&) 0or $r. +o&rad. 5he& he
started it3 he did it i& the ope&3 a&d #he& he #e&t upstairs3 #e had &o idea he lo%2ed the door.
(. .&d you %ame to u&dersta&d he lo%2ed the door #ith $r. +o&rad 'urray be%ause you #ere
playi&) hide a&d see23 a&d you tried to )et i&3 a&d the door #as lo%2ed-
.. /es.
(. .&d is it true that your 0ather usually lo%2ed the door #he& they #ere i& there3 $r. +o&rad
'urray a&d your dad-
.. 46m &ot sure. 4 did&6t %he%2 that3 but 4 #ould assume so.
(. /ou did&6t have a& u&dersta&di&) o0 that-
.. Ex%use me-
(. /ou did&6t have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hether your 0ather #ould lo%2 the door #he& he #as
#ith $r. +o&rad 'urray-
.. 4 did&6t %he%2.
(. 7o i& the depositio& #he& you said that #as your u&dersta&di&)3 it6s be%ause you presumed
it3 &ot be%ause you 2&e# it-
.. /es.
(. .&d #as the door %losed at all times #he& they #ere i& there-
.. /es3 it #as3 ex%ept 0or i& the mor&i&).
(. .&d did a time %ome #he& you #e&t a&d tried to )et i&to the bedroom #ith your dad #he&
$r. +o&rad 'urray #as there-
.. 8o.
(. 7o you &ever tried to )et i& there-
.. ,&ly that 0irst time #ith hide a&d see2.
(. 1ust the 0irst time-
.. 1ust that 0irst time.
(. 7o every time therea0ter #he& your dad #as there3 you &ever #e&t do#& to tal2 to your dad
or 2&o%2 o& the door-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember.
(. .&d #hat about3 do you have a&y u&dersta&di&) about #hether your sister or brother ever
#e&t do#& to try to )et i& that room-
.. 46m &ot sure they tried.
(. 5as that door %losed at all times #he& they #ere i& there-
.. !i2e 4 said3 it #as %losed ex%ept 0or i& the mor&i&)s.
(. ,&e other @uestio&3 i0 4 %a&. /ou tal2ed about this idea that a time %ame #here you sa#
Ja&dy Phillips a&d a perso&... 5e6ll )et to #ho i& a se%o&d... .t the bottom o0 the stairs #here
'r. Phillips #as bei&) a))ressive #ith that perso&. /ou remember that testimo&y-
.. /es.
(. .&d at times today you said it #as $r. Tohme3 at other times you said it #as $r. 'urray. !et
me as2 you a 0e# @uestio&s about that. 5as $r. Tohme someo&e you 2&e# si&%e 200F #he&
you moved to !as Ee)as-
.. 4 thi&2 so.
(. 7o that #as a perso&3 by the time you arrived i& the +arol#ood home3 you had 2&o#& 0or at
least three years ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 4& 0a%t3 #he& you moved to !as Ee)as3 is it true that o&e o0 the reaso&s you moved to !as
Ee)as #as be%ause $r. Tohme had i&trodu%ed your 0ather to somebody #ho made it possible so
you %ould live i& the palm hotel 0or a year a&d a hal0-
.. /es3 he did.
(. .&d this is someo&e you sa# i& Ee)as3 $r. Tohme %orre%t-
.. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 4 sa# him i& Ee)as.
(. Ho# did you 2&o# he #as that perso&-
.. 4 met him i& Ee)as3 but 4 did&6t really remember #he& 4 sa# him. 4 do&6t remember i0 4 did.
(. .&d Ja&dy Phillips #as&6t someo&e you met u&til you moved to !os .&)eles %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d as #e sit here today3 you do&6t 2&o# #hether that e&%ou&ter that you6ve *ust me&tio&ed
bet#ee& Ja&dy Phillips a&d either $r. Tohme or $r. +o&rad 'urray... /ou do&6t 2&o# #hat day
that o%%urred ri)ht-
.. 8ot de0i&ite. 9rom #hat 4 remember3 it #as the &i)ht be0ore3 but 4 %a&6t tell you... 4 %a&6t be
100 per%e&t sure o0 that.
(. 7o you thi&2 it mi)ht have bee& the &i)ht be0ore that you sa# them there-
.. 46m more tha&3 li2e3 sure it #as more tha& li2ely o& the &i)ht be0ore3 or it #as t#o &i)hts
be0ore.
(. .&d i& 0a%t3 do you have a&y u&dersta&di&) as to #hether or &ot there6s bee& testimo&y here
that the &i)ht be0ore3 Ja&dy Phillips #as at the 7taples +e&ter #ith your dad-
.. 8o.
(. $o you have a&y u&dersta&di&) as to #hether there #as testimo&y here that... .&d the &i)ht
be0ore that3 the 23rd3 he #as also at the 7taples +e&ter-
.. 8o.
(. /ou do&6t 2&o# that-
.. 8o.
(. $o you remember telli&) me at your depositio&... 7tri2e that. !et me as2 you di00ere&tly.
That really bad mor&i&)3 the 2>th3 you did&6t see your dad that mor&i&) ri)ht-
.. 8o.
(. $o you remember telli&) us at your depositio& that the mor&i&) a0ter you believe you sa#
Ja&dy Phillips #ith a do%tor3 #hether it #as Tohme or $r. +o&rad 'urray3 you remember
sayi&) that the &ext mor&i&)3 you tal2ed to your dad about it-
.. Ex%use me-
(. /ou remember telli&) us at your depositio&3 that the mor&i&) a0ter you sa# Ja&dy Phillips i&
your house3 the &ext mor&i&)3 you tal2ed to your dad-
.. 4 do&6t remember sayi&) that.
(. ,K. !et me *ust sho# you your depo3 i0 4 %a&.
Mr& utna'% this #ill be pa)e 2>;/1: throu)h 23.
.. 'r. Put&am.
(. .&d the 0irst day #as o& a 7aturday is that ri)ht-
.. /es.
(. 4& 'r. Put&am6s o00i%e-
.. /es.
(. 4s that ri)ht- .&d #ere you s%ared #he& he #as @uestio&i&) you-
.. Bm3 &ot so mu%h s%ared. 46d *ust li2e to apolo)iAe. 4 did&6t 2&o# 4 had to #ear a suit o& that
day3 so... 4 did&6t 2&o# #hat 2i&d o0 eve&t it #as. 4 thi&2 it #as *ust be%ause... 8ot the #ay you
#a&t to spe&d your #ee2e&d3 exa%tly.
(. 5e 2&o# that. The depositio& o& a 7aturday started at 10: 3F i& the mor&i&).
Ju#$e% the #it&ess has to either a)ree or disa)ree.
Mr. anish: 46m sorry.
.. 4 %a&&ot...
(. $o you remember readi&)3 it says the time-
.. /es.
(. .&d the& it e&ded at... 5hat time did it e&d-
.. 2: 2> P'.
(. ,K. .&d you too2 a 1><mi&ute brea2 at... 4 2&o# you too2 a 1><mi&ute brea2 some#here.
!et me *ust 0i&d it here. ,K. .%tually3 you too2 a brea2 at... 4 #a&t to be %orre%t3 be%ause 4
2&o#... ,K. 7o you too2 a brea2 at 11: 2= to 11: GG3 a&d the& at 12: 233 #e too2 a brea2 u&til 1:
0G. .&d the& you #ere there u&til 2: 2>. 8o#3 o& the se%o&d day3 you be)a& at... 5hat time did
it be)i&-
.. .t 2: 00 P'.
(. ,K. 4 thi&2 that #as duri&) the #ee23 a%tually.
.. /es3 it #as.
(. 5as it a0ter s%hool-
.. 4 do.
(. $o you 2&o# #hether she #as @uestio&i&) your sister3 also-
.. 4 have &o idea.
(. ,K. .&d i& 0a%t3 #here did your sister have to )ive her 0irst depositio&-
.. 4 believe it #as )oi&) to be at 'r. Put&am6s o00i%e.
(. $o you remember some#here that you #e&t the day #here she )ave her depositio&-
.. 4 believe T1 petitio&ed 0or it to be do&e here i& the *ury room.
(. 8o#3 let6s tal2 about $r. +o&rad 'urray. .&d 46d li2e to play the rest o0 your testimo&y that
you )ave.
Mr. anish: a&d that #ould be at pa)e 2:=... Ex%use me... 2::3 li&e 1 to 2> #here 'r. Put&am
le0t o00.
Mr& utna'% ex%use me3 a)ai&-
Mr. anish: 2::/1 to 2>. Ji)ht a0ter you stopped. 4s that ,K-
Mr& utna'% o&%e 4 see it.
Mr. anish: you #ere 2:=3 up to 2>.
Mr& utna'% sure.
Mr. anish: ,K. 1osh3 ho# #e doi&) o& that- ,&e se%o&d.
(. 5hile he6s )etti&) that ready3 the time that you sa# 'r. Phillips... He %alled him $r. Phillips.
$o you 2&o# i0 he6s a do%tor or &ot-
.. 4 did&6t thi&2 he #as a do%tor.
(. 'r. Phillips3 #he& he #as )rabbi&) the arm o0 that i&dividual3 #as that Tohme3 or #as that
+o&rad 'urray-
.. +o&rad 'urray.
(. .&y @uestio& i& your mi&d-
.. 8o. They loo2 %ompletely di00ere&t.
(. That is true. .ll ri)ht. 8o#3 #he& you #ere at... Tal2i&) i& your depositio& about the %ash
that your 0ather had bee& )ivi&)... ,r3 ex%use me. The %ash your 0ather )ave you to )ive to $r.
'urray3 a&d you #ere tryi&) to %omplete your a&s#er3 did 'r. Put&am %ut you o00 i& the
depositio&-
.. 8ot that 4 %a& remember3 but he %ould have.
(. 4 mea&3 at the trial ri)ht &o#.
.. .t the trial- /es.
(. ,K. 5ithout telli&) us #hat a&yo&e said3 did you have a& u&dersta&di&) as to #hy your
0ather )ave you some L100 bills to )ive to $r. 'urray-
.. /es.
(. 5hat #as that-
.. That $r. 'urray #as &ot )etti&) paid a&d that he &eeded some mo&ey to )et... 5e6re tal2i&)
about at +arol#ood ri)ht-
(. Ji)ht.
.. That he #as &ot )etti&) paid. He #as supposed to be a&d that my dad #as )ivi&) him some
mo&ey to help him )et paid u&til he )ot a pay%he%2.
(. $o you 2&o# #ho #as supposed to pay-
.. .ED.
(. 8o#3 let6s play that testimo&y. Ha video %lip #as played #ith the 0ollo#i&) testimo&y bei&)
said: I
"and what kind... &o your dad would give you money to give to Dr. Conrad Murray? "yes. "did
he also do that in !egas? "in !egas, he would give it to him with us there. "'(. )nd in !egas,
would he also give him cash? "yes. "did... *o your knowledge, did he ever pay him with a
check? "I wouldnt know. "'(. &o to your knowledge, all you ever saw him pay him with was
cash? "yes. "and in !egas, did he ever give you money to give to Dr. Conrad Murray? "no. "did
you have an understanding as to why he started doing that at Carolwood? "he felt bad for him.
"what do you mean? "something was going on with Dr. Murrays finances. I dont think he was
getting paid for what he was doing. "
(. .&d the& did 'r. Put&am %ut i& o& the a&s#er there-
.. /es.
(. The time you #ere a%tually bei&) as2ed @uestio&s. 40 you ta2e out the time 0or the brea2s3
a&d you ta2e out the time... 46m tal2i&) about the 0irst time. That 0irst time3 about t#o hours
%orre%t-
.. 46m &ot )ood #ith &umbers3 so 4 #ould&6t 2&o#.
(. ,K. $o you remember that depositio& e&ded be%ause you had de%ided that you #ere tired-
.. /es.
(. .&d so you as2ed i0 #e %ould %o&ti&ue this o& a&other day-
.. 4 do.
(. .&d you remember us sayi&)3 sure3 o0 %ourse3 a&ytime that6s )ood 0or you-
.. 8o.
(. 5hat happe&ed-
.. 5e tried3 4 thi&23 leavi&)...
(. 46m sorry-
.. 4 believe that3 0rom #hat 4 remember3 #e tried leavi&) a little earlier be0ore the time that 4
had le0t the 0irst time3 a&d #e *ust %o&ti&ued #ith the @uestio&s3 a&d the& #e le0t at a di00ere&t
time.
(. 7o the time %ame #he& you as2ed to leave3 a&d #e said3 C9i&e. !et6s )oC-
.. /eah.
(. .&d it %o&ti&ued o& a&other day %orre%t-
.. /es.
(. .&d3 a)ai&3 it #as a day %hose& by your %ou&sel-
.. 4 )uess it #as.
(. .&d the lo%atio&3 a)ai&3 %hose& by your %ou&sel-
Mr. anish: ob*e%tio&. That6s &ot a%%urate.
Mr& utna'% stri2e that3 the&.
Ju#$e% ,K.
Mr& utna'% your ho&or3 #e %a& obviously let him )o &o# but be sub*e%t to re%all i& our %ase-
Mr. anish: #hatever you #a&t. ?ri&) him ba%2.
Ju#$e% ,K. Tha&2 you. /ou may step do#&. /ou may be re%alled3 but you may step do#&.
Tha&2 you.
Lunch-&&
Ju#$e% )ood a0ter&oo&. $id you #a&t to tal2 to me-
Mr& anish% yes3 your ho&or3 4 didM primarily o& s%heduli&)3 a&d o& some exhibits. 7o the pla&
#as &o#... 5ell3 the pla& #as... .t least my pla& #as that 'r. Pri&%e 1a%2so& #as )oi&) to ta2e
lo&)er tha& he did3 so he6s 0i&ished early. 5e have the depositio& o0 'r. !ei#e2e. There are
some exhibits that &eed to be ruled o&. There are three exhibits that %ou&sel ob*e%ted to3 a&d
they6re ready to ar)ue that. 5e %a& sho# that a0ter this. 5e have T1 1a%2so& here3 #ho %a&
testi0y &ext. 5e are pla&&i&) o& T1 a&d Ta* maybe )oi&) tomorro#M a&d the& #e have3 maybe3
a&other depositio&3 but it may be shorter tomorro#. 7o the @uestio&... .&d there are at least
three... There6s t#o motio&s that 4 2&o# o03 a&d a&other ar)ume&t o& some depositio& portio&s
that &eed to be addressed by the %ourt. 7o there6s ar)ume&t o& $r. 9i&2elstei&3 there6s a motio&
#ith 'r. .&s%hutA3 a&d there6s a motio& #ith 'r. Taylor. 7o there6s three other... 4 thi&2 that...
4s that ri)ht3 's. +aha&-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Ms& Cahan% yes3 a&d 4 #a&ted to tal2 about the depositio& subpoe&a 0or 's. J#aramba.
Mr& anish% ri)ht. .&d there6s a&other matter. 7o those are all )oi&) to ta2e time. 'aybe i0 #e
brea2 earlier today3 #e %a& ta2e up some o0 those. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 you6re ready o& those motio&sM
but #e %ould dis%uss 's. J#aramba3 0or example3 a&d #e %ould dis%uss $r. 9i&2elstei&3 at least3
be%ause 4 2&o# you6re 0amiliar #ith those. 'aybe tomorro# #e %ould dis%uss the other matters.
46m *ust tryi&)...
Ju#$e% at least .&s%hutA3 #e %a& de0i&itely dis%uss tomorro#.
Mr& anish% o2ay. .&d also3 maybe3 'r. Taylor. 4 do&6t 2&o# #here you6re at o& that. 4t6s all
bee& 0ully brie0ed3 you probably have&6t had a %ha&%e to loo2 at it.
Ju#$e% &ot o& Taylor.
Mr& anish% so 46m *ust tryi&) to advise you... ?e%ause the& 9riday is 's. 9aye3 a&d #e do&6t
#a&t to ru& over3 but 4 do&6t thi&2 that6s )oi&) to be a problem ri)ht &o#. 7o it is our i&te&tio&
that 's. 9aye #ould be all day 9riday. 7o #e have a& issue #hether it6s )oi&) to be today or
tomorro# o& the timi&)3 a&d 46m tryi&) to pla& #ith the %ourt6s help o0 ho# to use that time most
e00i%ie&tly.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% i& other #ords3 short o0 time or too mu%h time.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o tell me #hi%h... +a& you play some depos today-
Mr& anish% yeah. 5e6re ready... 'r. !ei#e2e is about a& hour3 4 thi&2. 4s that ri)ht-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Mr& anish% a&d the& #e have 'r. T. 1. 1a%2so&3 #e %ould put him o& today. That #ill ta2e us
0or3 you 2&o#3 a )ood portio& o0 the day today. ,2ay. The& tomorro# #e6re )oi&) to &eed
ruli&) o& 9i&2elstei&3 #hi%h is o&ly a& hour a&d 20 some mi&utesM a&d the& #e have Ta* 1a%2so&M
a&d3 really3 that6s it u&til 's. 9aye.
Ju#$e% o2ay. The depositio& o0 9i&2elstei& is o&e hour a&d 20 mi&utes-
Mr& anish% approximately. .&d the& there6s still some ruli&)s3 obviously. 46m *ust )ivi&) you
a& estimate. 4t6s &ot a& hour a&d >0 mi&utes3 it6s bet#ee& 20 a&d 303 or 1=3 a&d...
Ju#$e% a&d the& #hat else-
Mr& anish% Ta* 1a%2so&. Jeally3 4 thou)ht pri&%e #as )oi&) to ta2e most o0 the day.
,bviously3 he did&6t3 so #e6re happy #ith that3 but3 you 2&o#3 #e6ve )ot a& issue.
Ju#$e% o2ay. /ou thi&2 Ta* 1a%2so& #ill ta2e the rest o0 the day-
Mr& anish% you mea& T1 today-
Ju#$e% the 0ollo#i&) day.
Mr& anish% &o3 4 do&6t thi&2 he6ll ta2e the #hole day3 &o.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% 46m &ot a&ti%ipati&). 4 do&6t 2&o# ho# lo&) they6re )oi&) to %rossM but the dire%t is
&ot a&ti%ipated to be3 you 2&o#3 hours a&d hours. ?ut i0 #e play the video a&d him... 'aybe. 4
have &o idea ho# lo&) they #ould %ross3 4 have&6t eve& as2ed them that yet.
Mr& ut'an% very little.
Mr& anish% o2ay. 7o the& #e 2&o# that6s very little. 7o the& 4 do&6t thi&2... !i2e Cvery littleC
is less tha& a hal0 a& hour-
Mr& ut'an% obviously3 4 have to #ait a&d seeM but it6s )oi&) to be very little.
Mr& anish% that6s... 4 u&dersta&d3 he6s *ust telli&)... ?ut it6s either Cvery little3C or Cdepe&ds o&
#hat he says3C so 4 do&6t have a&y #ay to )au)e. That6s all 46m sayi&). 46m &ot tryi&) to restri%t
him.
Mr& ut'an% ho# lo&) do you thi&2 you6ll be3 sir-
Mr& anish% you %all me Csir3C &o#- Tha&2 you. /ou 2&o#3 maybe a& hour a&d a hal0.
Mr& ut'an% 4 %a&6t see #e6d be lo&)er tha& a& hour3 your ho&or.
Ms& Cahan% i0... That plus a& hour a&d a hal0 o0 video3 that )ets us to about 0our hours3 plus
#e6ll have ar)ume&t o& the 9i&2elstei& stu00 that probably #ill 0ill up the time.
Mr& anish% 46m hopi&) that it #ill all be 0i&e. 4 *ust do&6t #a&t to be sitti&) here at 2:30 a&d
you6re loo2i&) at me sayi&)3 C'r. Pa&ish3 #hat6s )oi&) o&- 4 #a&t to have #it&esses here3C #hi%h
has al#ays bee& my i&te&tio&. 46m *ust advisi&) the %ourt #here #e6re at so there6s &o issue.
That6s all. ?ut 4 2&o# that3 0or example3 !ei#e2e has to )et ruled o& ri)ht &o# 0or us to be able
to play itM so #e 2&o# that3 at least.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 4 #as *ust )oi&) to as2 are there a&y other depositio&s that are outsta&di&) that you
%ould play as a 0iller a0ter Ta* 1a%2so&-
Mr& anish% 4 do&6t thi&2 so. .re there-
Ju#$e% Taylor-
Mr& anish% #ell3 Taylor3 you have&6t ruled o&. 7o you6ve )ot to rule o& that. Taylor %ould be
played. That6s really the o&es.
Ju#$e% 4 %a& see i0 4 %a& )et movi&) o& that. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 46ll be ready by the&. 46ll try.
Mr& ut'an% *ust so your ho&or 2&o#s3 our positio& is that it %a&6t be played at all3 so this is&6t
o&e #here...
Ju#$e% a portio& o0 it.
Mr& ut'an% exa%tly. 4 *ust #a&t you to u&dersta&d #hat you6re )etti&) to so you do&6t rely o&
the idea there mi)ht be somethi&) there.
Mr& anish% that6s a 0air assessme&t o0 his positio&.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% so 46m *ust tryi&) to lay it out. 5e do&6t have to de%ide this mi&ute3 but 4 *ust #a&t
to advise you so 46m &ot havi&) you loo2 at me li2e3 C#hat6s up-C
Ju#$e% o2ay. 5ell3 #hy do&6t #e *ust... 5hy do&6t #e )o 0or#ard #ith !ei#e2e ob*e%tio&s
ri)ht &o#.
Ms& Cahan% yesterday 'r. ?oyle )ave me a sta%2 o0 do%ume&ts that #ere mar2ed at 'r.
!ei#e2e6s depositio& as exhibits a&d said he #ould... 4&te&ded to move them i&to the evide&%e
#ith the playi&) o0 the depositio&. 5e loo2ed at those last &i)htM a&d three o0 them3 'r.
!ei#e2e3 #he& he #as as2ed about3 had &o 0ou&datio& 0or them3 did&6t have a&y u&dersta&di&)
o0 the do%ume&ts3 a&d so #e do&6t thi&2 that his depositio& is a su00i%ie&t basis to move those
i&to evide&%e. .&d it6s my u&dersta&di&) 0rom spea2i&) #ith plai&ti00s6 %ou&sel that they thi&2
that at least some portio& o0 these three do%ume&ts is *udi%ially &oti%eable3 but that #ould be a
separate pro%ess a&d %ould be do&e at a separate time. 5e do&6t &eed to 0i)ure that out &o#
%o&%urre&t #ith the playi&) o0 the depositio&. .&d the do%ume&ts3 0or the re%ord...
Ju#$e% #hat #ould be *udi%ially &oti%eable-
Mr& anish% 7e%retary o0 7tate re%ord.
Mr& .o)le% do you have a& extra set #e %a& )ive to the *ud)e-
Ju#$e% +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate-
Mr& anish% yes.
Ms& Cahan% it6s a 20103 your ho&or... The 0irst3 #hi%h #as Exhibit 1 to 'r. !ei#e2e6s
depositio&3 is a 9ebruary 2010...
Ju#$e% 4 thi&2 4 remember this. He #as bei&) @uestio&ed as to %orporate status3 a&d...
Mr& anish% ri)ht. .&d he #as the +E, ,0 the %ompa&y3 a&d this is 0iled #ith the 7e%retary o0
7tate3 it6s a& admissio&3 a&d it6s...
Mr& .o)le% his &ame is o& it as a member o0 the... ,0 the !!+
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 *ust to be %lear 0or the re%ord3 this is a +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate
stateme&t o0 i&0ormatio& 0or .ED !ive3 !!+ He #as &ever the +E, ,0 that e&tity3 a&d he
did&6t have a 0ou&datio& to testi0y about it at his depositio&.
Ju#$e% that6s o2ay. 40 it6s *udi%ially &oti%eable3 4 thi&2 it %a& %ome i& #ith a&ybody at a&y time.
4 do&6t thi&2 it &eeds to %ome i&... 4t has &o importa&%e %omi&) i& at this time or a&y other time
duri&) the trial. 40 they #a&t to use it &o#3 that6s 0i&e.
Mr& .o)le% a&d to be %lear3 his &ame is o& it as o&e o0 three members o0 the !!+
Ju#$e% o2ay. $oes it have a stamp o& it3 thou)h-
Mr& .o)le% yes.
Ju#$e% li2e the 7e%retary o0 7tate stamp or somethi&)-
Mr& .o)le% yes3 C0iled3 7e%retary o0 7tate. C
Ju#$e% so that should ta2e %are o0 it.
Ms& Cahan% the se%o&d do%ume&t3 #hi%h is Exhibit G to 'r. !ei#e2e6s depositio&3 appears to be
a pri&tout o0 Exhibit... There6s &o date appare&t o& it that 4 %a& see. 4t6s a pri&tout o0 a& !. ..
Ki&)s sta00 dire%tory 0rom some 8H! 5ebsite. .t his depositio&3 he said that he did&6t have a&y
0ou&datio& to authe&ti%ate that3 a&d he said that he thou)ht there #as at least o&e mista2e i& this
do%ume&t3 so 4 do&6t thi&2 that6s appropriate.
Ju#$e% that6s &ot *udi%ially &oti%eable.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 to be %lear3 this is 0rom the !. .. Ki&)s #ebsiteM it6s the sta00 dire%tory
0or the !. .. Ki&)s. 'r. !ei#e2e #as the )over&or3 #hi%h mea&s the head perso& o0 the !. ..
Ki&)s.
Ju#$e% it may beM but i0 he does&6t #a&t to ide&ti0y it3 4 do&6t 2&o# #hat 4 %a& do 0or you o& that
0ro&t.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay. Dot it.
Ju#$e% so it6s &ot *udi%ially &oti%eable.
Mr& anish% #e %a& %all 'r. Trell to lay the 0ou&datio&.
Ju#$e% so &o *udi%ial &oti%e o& that o&e.
Mr& anish% #e #ere&6t sayi&) that these should be *udi%ial &oti%e. 5e6re &ot ta2i&) that
positio&. 5e6re ta2i&) the positio& that6s a& o00i%ial busi&ess re%ord o0 the !os .&)eles 2i&)s3
#hi%h is o#&ed by .ED. .&d #hi%h 'r. !ei#e2e #as a%ti&) as the )over&or or the head o0 at
the time.
Ju#$e% maybe. ?ut somebody has to lay a 0ou&datio& 0or the busi&ess re%ords a&y#ay3 so...
Ms& Cahan% that6s ri)ht3 your ho&or. .&d the third do%ume&t is Exhibit F to 'r. !ei#e2e6s
depositio&. .&d that appears to be a pri&tout 0rom the +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate #ebsite as o0
9riday3 ,%tober 1st3 20103 that )ives some busi&ess e&tity detail 0or .ED !ive3 !!+ There #as
&o 0ou&datio& laid #ith 'r. !ei#e2e. The plai&ti00s i&trodu%ed the do%ume&t to try to establish
some dates3 a&d he #as&6t able to pla%e a&ythi&) i& time based o& the do%ume&t3 a&d so it did&6t...
$id&6t re0resh his re%olle%tio&3 to my u&dersta&di&)3 a&d #as&6t somethi&) that he established as
)e&ui&e or... ,r releva&t to his testimo&y.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 yeah3 it6s a pri&tout 0rom the o00i%ial +ali0or&ia 7e%retary o0 7tate
#ebsite that sho#s .ED !ives6 busi&ess e&tity &umber a&d address. .&d some#hat sho%2i&)ly3
'r. !ei#e2e #as&6t able to ide&ti0y a&ythi&) about thatM but 4 thi&2 it6s a busi&ess re%ord 0rom
the 7e%retary o0 7tate #ebsite.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Ms& Cahan% a&d the i&0ormatio& o0 the busi&ess e&tity &umber a&d the address is also prese&t o&
the o&e do%ume&t that you did a)ree is *udi%ially &oti%eable a&d is...
Ju#$e% 46m sorry. 7ay that a)ai&-
Ms& Cahan% the i&0ormatio& that 'r. ?oyle *ust ide&ti0ied as bei&) the perti&e&t i&0ormatio&
0rom this #eb<pa)e pri&tout... The e&tity &ame3 &umber a&d address is also i&0ormatio& that is
prese&t o& the o00i%ial 7e%retary o0 7tate do%ume&t that the %ourt is ta2i&) *udi%ial &oti%e o0. 4
do&6t 2&o# that this other do%ume&t that6s a #ebsite pri&tout that 'r. !ei#e2e did&6t have a
0ou&datio& to tal2 about adds a&ythi&) to the a&alysis.
Mr& .o)le% that6s true.
Ju#$e% 4 do&6t thi&2 4 %a& ta2e *udi%ial &oti%e o0 a #ebsite3 so 46m )oi&) to sustai& the ob*e%tio&.
?ut the do%ume&t that has the o00i%ial stamp3 #e6re o2ay o& that o&e.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay3 your ho&or.
Mr& anish% %a& 4 )o to the restroom real @ui%2-
Ju#$e% yes. ?ut #e %a& %o&ti&ue #ith ar)ume&t i0 you have a&ythi&) else.
Ms& Cahan% this mi)ht be a )ood time to address the issue #ith respe%t to 's. J#aramba6s
subpoe&a3 be%ause 4 thi&2 #e %a& do it @ui%2ly3 a&d i0 #e %a&6t do it @ui%2ly3 a&d it i&terrupts3
the& #e %a& address it a)ai& later. 5e #ere served yesterday #ith a purported &oti%e o0
videotaped depositio& a&d depositio& subpoe&a #ith do%ume&t re@uests 0or )ra%e J#aramba. .s
your ho&or may remember3 #e tal2ed about our exte&sive e00orts to try to )et a )ood address a&d
%o&ta%t i&0ormatio& 0or 's. J#aramba duri&) dis%overy a&d plai&ti00s6 late re@uest to add her to
their #it&ess list. /our ho&or said that should she be lo%ated3 that the parties #ould be able to
both ta2e a depositio& o0 her. 4t6s our u&dersta&di&) 0rom the press that 's. J#aramba has bee&
spe&di&) time #ith 'rs. Katheri&e 1a%2so& si&%e mid 1u&e at the latest3 a&d presumably
plai&ti00s 2&o# #hat she6s )oi&) to say a&d #hat do%ume&ts she has. ?ut separate a&d apart
0rom that3 #hat they6ve &o# do&e is to u&ilaterally set her depositio& 0or 1uly 2&d3 #hi%h is a
%ourt day3 a&d it6s less tha& te& days6 &oti%es. 5e do&6t ob*e%t to the idea o0 deposi&) her3 but the
timi&) a&d the #ay it6s bei&) ha&dled is sort o0 problemati% here.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o %a&6t #e #or2 to )et a date that6s...
Mr& .o)le% absolutely3 your ho&or. 7he has bee& lo%ated3 a&d #e )ot the depo... permissio& to
ta2e her depositio& 0rom her. 5e )ave a depo &oti%eM a&d so #e %a& #or2 #ith them o& the time3
date. That6s 0i&e. ?ut...
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o #hat are you loo2i&) 0or- 5hat6s your time 0rame- 40 the 2&d is &ot )ood3
#hat...
Ms& Cahan% the 2&d may be o2ay3 your ho&or. 7i&%e #e o&ly )et G= hours6 &oti%e o0 their
#it&esses3 #e do&6t 2&o# #hether the 2&d #ould pose a %o&0li%t 0or us or &ot. 5e do&6t 2&o# i0
maybe this %ould be do&e over a #ee2e&dM a&d espe%ially i& li)ht o0 the 0a%t that plai&ti00s have
&oti%ed her depositio& 0or 1uly 2&d a&d the& said they #ill rest their %ase sometime the #ee2 o0
1uly =3 that sort o0 %reates...
Ms& Cahan%... . time %ru&%h a&d it6s problemati%. 4 #ould hope #e %ould #or2 to)ether a&d
pi%2 a time maybe o& the #ee2e&d or a day #he& #e6re &ot i& %ourt3 maybe 1uly >th or
somethi&) li2e that.
Ju#$e% o& the holiday #ee2e&d- That may &ot be so )ood.
Ms& Cahan% #e have &o idea #hat her availability is. 4 assume plai&ti00s3 si&%e they se%ured her
%o&se&t to be deposed3 mi)ht have some idea o0 her s%hedule.
Mr& anish% ho# do you 2&o# #e se%ured her %o&se&t to be deposed-
Ms& Cahan% Kevi& *ust said so.
Mr& anish% 4 did&6t 2&o# that. 46m )lad 4 2&o# that.
Mr& .o)le% she se&t us a letter.
Mr& anish% 4 did&6t 2&o#.
Mr& .o)le% so 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 4 misspo2e3 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 it6s %o&se&t to be deposed3 but #e
0ou&d out #here she #as.
Ju#$e% %ooperatio& o0 some sort.
Mr& .o)le% yeah. .%tually3 the poi&t perso& o& our team #ho is deali&) #ith this issue is &ot i&
the room3 but #e %a& tal2 #ith them about 0i&di&) a suitable time a&d pla%e. That6s 0i&e.
Ju#$e% are you satis0ied #ith that-
Ms& Cahan% yes3 your ho&orM a&d i0 it is to be a %ourt day3 i0 #e %ould )et a little bit additio&al
&oti%e o0 #ho is )oi&) to be o& %all to testi0y that day so that #e %a& ma2e sure our team is
sta00ed appropriately so that #e %a& ha&dle both thi&)s3 that #ould be ideal.
Mr& anish% that seems reaso&able.
Mr& .o)le% &o problem.
Mr& anish% i& other #ords3 the attor&ey that is )oi&) to be doi&) the depo3 you do&6t #a&t them
to be a #it&ess they #ere supposed to ha&dle-
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht.
Mr& anish% u&0ortu&ately3 that6s #hat really happe&s i& the pra%ti%e o0 la#3 so...
Mr& .o)le% but #e %a& #or2 it out.
Mr& anish% #e6ll #or2 #ith you.
Mr& ut'an% tha&2 you.
Ju#$e% o2ay. Tha&2s.
Mr& anish% o2ay. 7o...
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o are you playi&) the depositio& o0 !ei#e2e 0irst-
Mr& anish% yes. /es3 your ho&or.
Mr& .o)le% yes3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% o2ay.
Mr& anish% is there erratas-
Ms& Cahan% &o.
Mr& anish% so #e6ll stop a&d do that o&e Exhibit.
Ms& Cahan% #e did&6t ob*e%t to all o0 them.
Mr& anish% #e6ll do it at the e&d3 thou)h. ?ut #e %a& sho# it. 5e6ll sho# it #hile it6s )oi&)M
a&d at the e&d3 #e6ll move it i&. 4s that o2ay-
Ms& Cahan% that6s 0i&e.
o0 the medi%al %o&ditio& o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&3 so they6re &ot bei&) o00ered 0or the truth o0 the
matter asserted3 but 0or $r. 9i&2elstei&6s u&dersta&di&) o0 that. .&d it #as a %o&versatio&
bet#ee& t#o treati&) physi%ia&s. 7o 4 #ill %ite 0or that Ju0o v. 7impso&3 =F %al. .pp. Gth >;33
>:13 >:23 a&d the Jutter )uide o& %ivil trials a&d evide&%e3 %hapter = d. ?. .&d the hearsay rule
is simply &ot impli%ated #he& the issue is #hether %ertai& thi&)s are said or do&e a&d they have
i&depe&de&t le)al si)&i0i%a&%e3 #hi%h #e thi&2 is the %ase here3 people v smith3 1;: %al. .pp. Gth
:=F. 8o#3 #e also thi&2 i0 the %ourt is i&%li&ed to thi&2 these $r. 9ore%ast stateme&ts are
hearsay3 there are some ex%eptio&s. 9irst there is evide&%e %ode =013 #here $r. 9i&2elstei& is a
&o&<retai&ed expert i& this %ase by both parties. He happe&ed to be a treati&) physi%ia& at the
time3 but... ?ut subse@ue&tly he #as desi)&ated as &o&<retai&ed by both parties. .&d the la# is
@uite %lear that3 li2e a&y other expert3 a treati&) physi%ia&3 parti%ularly #he& they6re &o&<
retai&ed3 may provide both 0a%t a&d opi&io& testimo&y3 i&%ludi&) testimo&y i& the %ause. 5hat6s
happe&i&)3 $r. 9i&2elstei& is e&titled as a &o&<retai&ed expert to rely o& reliable hearsay3
i&%ludi&) the stateme&ts o0 other treati&) pro0essio&als3 i& 0ormi&) his opi&io& %o&%er&i&) a
patie&t6s physi%al state u&der =01HbI. .&d the %ase there is people v. +ampos3 32 %al. .pp. Gth
30G3 pa)es 30; to 30=.
Ju#$e% %ould you repeat that3 the pri&%iple-
Mr& .o)le% $r. 9i&2elstei& is e&titled to rely o& reliable hearsay3 i&%ludi&) the stateme&ts o0
other treati&) pro0essio&als3 i& 0ormi&) his opi&io& %o&%er&i&) a patie&t6s physi%al state u&der
evide&%e %ode =01HbI. .&d the& the %ase #ould be people v. +ampos3 32 %al. .pp. Gth 30G3
30;3 30=. .&d the& 4 #ill s2ip 0or &o# t#o other %ases o& that. 4 %a& %ite them to the %ourt i0 4
&eed to later. ?ut the& as 0ar as the hearsay %at%hall3 #e believe that i& the %ase i& re +i&dy l. 3
1; %al. Gth 1>3 pa)e 2=3 +ali0or&ia re%o)&iAes that %ourts %reate hearsay ex%eptio&s 0or hearsay
testimo&y provided there is a substa&tial &eed 0or the evide&%e a&d it3 @uote3 possesses a&
i&tri&si% reliability that e&abled them to surmou&t %o&stitutio&al a&d our other ob*e%tio&s that
)e&erally apply to hearsay evide&%e3 e&d @uote. Here3 the substa&tial &eed is that $r. 9ore%ast is
out o0 the %ou&try3 a&d both... .s the %ourt is probably #ell a#are3 both parties i& this %ase
deposed virtually every si&)le possible perso& that %ould be 0ou&d i& the #orld. 4 do&6t #a&t to
)uess3 but 46m assumi&) there6s arou&d 100 depositio&s ta2e& i& the %ase. 8obody #as able to
lo%ate $r. 9ore%ast3 or )et his depositio&. He6s beyo&d the subpoe&a po#er o0 the %ourt. .&d
the& part t#o o0 that i& re +i&dy l. .&alysis is that the stateme&t possesses a& i&tri&si%
reliability3 #hi%h is the la&)ua)e used i& the %ase3 be%ause it6s bet#ee& t#o medi%al providers
#ho #ere both e&)a)ed i& treati&) 'i%hael 1a%2so&3 so there6s &o reaso& to thi&2 that the
stateme&ts o0 $r. 9ore%ast #ould be u&reliable.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 may 4 address ea%h o0 those theories- 7o #ith respe%t to the 0irst3 #hi%h
is the positio& that this is &ot hearsay be%ause it6s bei&) used 0or the e00e%t o& $r. 9i&2elstei& i&
his treatme&t o0 'r. 1a%2so&3 $r. 9i&2elstei&3 a)ai&3 treated 'r. 1a%2so& o&%e be0ore he ever met
$r. 9ore%astM a&d a se%o&d time #he& $r. 9ore%ast #as out o0 to#& a&d u&available he )ave him
a si&)le i&*e%tio& 0or a& ur)e&t pai& issue. He did&6t testi0y that a&y o0 his %o&versatio&s #ith $r.
9ore%ast i&0ormed that se%o&d i&sta&%e o0 medi%al %are3 a&d it6s &ot possible that they %ould have
i&0ormed the 0irst i&sta&%e. .&d moreover3 Ju0o v. 7impso&3 #hi%h is... 4&volves the death o0
8i%ole ?ro#& 7impso&3 is i&apposite3 i& our vie#. The Ju0o %ase holds that stateme&ts made by
a hearsay spea2er are admissible to sho# the spea2er6s state o0 mi&d3 &ot the impa%t o& the
perso& #ho hears the spea2er6s stateme&t. .&d there it #as a %ase o0 domesti% abuse a&d3 you
2&o#3 pote&tial 0ear3 state o0 mi&d i& terms o0 's. 7impso&6s 0ear a&d her %o&du%t.
Ju#$e% so that #as a stateme&t that 's. 8i%ole 7impso& made or ,.1. 7impso& made-
Ms& Cahan% &o. That #as a stateme&t that 's. 8i%ole bro#& 7impso& made. 4t #as a%tually
&otes that she made a&d pho&e %alls that she made to shelters tal2i&) about her 0ear o0 'r. ,. 1.
7impso&. .&d she said there... The %ourt 0ou&d there that it #as admissible to sho# 's.
7impso&6s state o0 mi&d3 but &ot to prove #hat she had said. .&d there3 you 2&o#3 i0 #e #ere to
try to a&alo)iAe that to this situatio&3 the stateme&ts %ould pote&tially be admissible to sho# #hat
$r. 9ore%ast thou)ht a&d u&derstood at the time3 but they6re &ot &o&<hearsay 0or purposes o0 $r.
9i&2elstei&. .&d3 i& additio&3 your ho&or... .&d this is &ot somethi&) #e had a %ha&%e to
dis%uss last time... 7ome o0 the stateme&ts are $r. 9i&2elstei& sayi&) #hat $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht3
but the& there #ere also... There6s at least o&e stateme&t that6s $r. 9i&2elstei& sayi&) #hat $r.
9ore%ast had... 5as assumi&) or observi&) based o& the prese&%e o0 other physi%ia&s #ho %ame
i& to visit 'r. 1a%2so&. .&d so it #as&6t really... 4t6s a& assumptio& o0 $r. 9ore%ast6s that $r.
9ore%ast relates to $r. 9i&2elstei&3 a&d the& $r. 9i&2elstei& is relati&) it i& a depositio& 20 years
later. 7o #e thi&2 it6s &ot hearsay a&d that Ju0o v. 7impso& does&6t apply. 5ith respe%t to the
hearsay ex%eptio& u&der =013 be%ause he6s a &o&<retai&ed expert3 there3 'r. ?oyle re0erred to the
people v. +ampos %ase.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 *ust 0or... 8ever mi&d.
Ms& Cahan% 46m sorry. People v. +ampos says3 at 30=3 Ca& expert #it&ess may &ot3 o& dire%t
exami&atio&3 reveal the %o&te&ts o0 reports prepared or opi&io&s expressed by &o&<testi0yi&)
experts. The reaso& 0or this is obvious. The opportu&ity o0 %ross<exami&i&) the other do%tor6s as
to the basis 0or their opi&io&3 et%.3 is de&ied the party as to #hom the testimo&y is adverse. C a&d
the& later o&3 at the same pa)e3 it says Cdo%tors %a& testi0y as to the basis o0 their opi&io&3 but this
is &ot i&te&ded to be a %ha&&el by #hi%h testi0yi&) do%tors %a& pla%e the opi&io& o0 i&&umerable
out<o0<%ourt do%tors be0ore the *ury. C a&d importa&tly3 as #ell3 here3 your ho&or3 i0 the ex%eptio&
#ere to other#ise be appli%able3 #hi%h it is &ot here3 i& our vie#3 it #ould still &eed to be about a
matter that6s material to the %ase a&d &ot a ta&)e&tial issue3 #hi%h #e believe this is. 5hat $r.
9i&2elstei&... 9i&2elstei& said $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht about other do%tors #ho #ere %omi&) to
visit 'r. 1a%2so&3 or his per%eptio&s o0 'r. 1a%2so&6s health #he& 'r. 1a%2so& himsel0 #e&t to
rehab a&d publi%ly said that at the e&d o0 the tour is really 0ar a0ield. .&d the& to *ust address the
%at%hall %o&%ept...
Ju#$e% this is o& the tour that #as termi&ated early-
Ms& Cahan% %orre%t. 4t6s the tour that e&ded i& 'exi%o +ity #ith 'r. 1a%2so& )oi&) to rehab 0or
bei&)...
Mr& anish% 'r. Do&)a#are #as o&.
Mr& .o)le% a&d termi&ated3 i& part3 due to the a%tio&s o0 $r. 9i&2elstei&.
Ms& Cahan% a&d3 your ho&or3 there6s &o 0ou&datio& to that stateme&t.
Mr& .o)le%... Testi0y to that.
Ms& Cahan% #ith respe%t to the %at%hall idea3 0irst o0 all3 4 CDoo)ledC $r. 9ore%ast. 4 have his
%urre&t o00i%e address i& !o&do&. He is someo&e #ho %ould have bee& pursued i& dis%overy a&d
#as &ot. His address a&d %o&ta%t i&0ormatio& is as%ertai&able3 he6s a pra%ti%i&) physi%ia& i&
!o&do&. .&d #ith respe%t to the i& re +i&dy l. +ase3 that6s a%tually #hat 4 #as dis%ussi&) at the
be)i&&i&) #ith respe%t to the appellate %ourts havi&) the ability to %reate a hearsay... 8e#
hearsay ex%eptio&s #here there are i&di%ia o0 reliability i& %ertai& spe%ial %ir%umsta&%es. .&d i&
re +i&dy l. 3 the +ali0or&ia supreme %ourt 0ou&d there #as a substa&tial &eed to admit limited
hearsay evide&%e i& %ases #here the hearsay stateme&ts #ere made by %hild sexual abuse vi%tims
i& disputes over pare&tal ri)hts be%ause that6s a pretty u&i@ue situatio& a&d there6s3 obviously3
%o&%er&s there about the 0ra)ility o0 the vi%tims i&volved. .&d the %ourt a%tually3 i& that %ase3
a&d at 1; %al. Gth 1>3 at 2=... 4t6s a 1::; %ase... Tal2ed about the reaso&s #hy a& ex%eptio& #as
appropriate there3 sayi&)3 @uote3 there are parti%ular di00i%ulties #ith provi&) %hild sexual abuseM
the 0re@ue&t la%2 o0 physi%al evide&%e3 the limited verbal a&d %o)&itive a%ts o0 %hild vi%tims3 the
0a%t that the %hildre& are o0te& u&able or u&#illi&) to a%t as #it&esses be%ause o0 the i&timidatio&
o0 the %ourtroom setti&)3 a&d the relu%ta&%e to testi0y a)ai&st their pare&ts. .&d the %ourt added
some additio&al sa0e)uards3 as #ell3 be0ore eve& allo#i&) that &e# %ate)ory o0 hearsay there3
a&d that... Those sa0e)uards i&%luded that there must be i&di%ia o0 reliability3 availability 0or
%ross<exami&atio& or %orroborative evide&%e o0 %hild sexual abuse3 a&d adva&%e &oti%e o0 i&te&t
to i&trodu%e hearsay evide&%e. .&d so 4 thi&2 it6s @uite %lear that i& re +i&dy l. 4s &ot appli%able
to this 2i&d o0 situatio&M a&d to the exte&t that there is a *udi%ial ability to %reate &e# limited
hearsay ex%eptio&s3 that6s somethi&) that happe&s at the appellate level i& u&i@ue %ir%umsta&%esM
a&d here parti%ularly3 be%ause $r. 9ore%ast is alive3 %ould have bee& deposed...
Ju#$e% #he& you say it happe&s at the appellate level3 it has to happe& at the trial 0irst be0ore it
)ets to the appellate level. ?ut 4 )et your poi&t.
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht3 your ho&or. .&d the la&)ua)e that 4 #as re0erri&) to there is at pa)e 2> o0 the
opi&io&3 re0ere&%es the 0a%t that appellate %ourts do have the po#er to %reate &e# ex%eptio&s to
the hearsay rule &ot 0ou&d i& the evide&%e %ode. .&d3 obviously3 the trial %ourt #ould have to
0irst 0i&d that appropriate there3 but it6s &ot... 4t #ould be reversible error other#ise to...
Ju#$e% #hat they6re sayi&) is that the le)islature...
Ms& Cahan% ri)ht. 4t %ould be do&e le)islatively or the appellate %ourts %ould 0i&d that there #as
a su00i%ie&t reaso&. .&d here3 there6s *ust %learly &ot that su00i%ie&t reaso&3 either based o& the
%ir%umsta&%es or based o& other#ise bei&) u&able to )et $r. 9ore%ast6s testimo&y.
Mr& .o)le% 0irst3 %a& #e ide&ti0y spe%i0i%ally pa)e3 li&es... ?e%ause3 your ho&or3 this is all i& the
%o&text that your ho&or already ruled that these stateme&ts %a& be played3 a&d they6re &o# tryi&)
to )et your ho&or to %ha&)e the %ourt6s ruli&)3 #hi%h is 0i&e3 but 46m &ot exa%tly sure #hi%h exa%t
pa)e/li&es #e6re %halle&)i&) at this poi&t. 'aybe #e %a& put it i& %o&text
Ms& Cahan% sure. 4 %a& read them @ui%2ly3 be%ause they6re all short. The 0irst is pa)e ;03 li&es 3
to 11 Hreadi&)I:
+. &o based on your communication with Dr. ,orecast, did you have an understanding that
Mr. -ackson was receiving the pain medication on a consistent basis for the three and a half
months between bangkok and me%ico city? )nd then I ob.ected, Mr. /oyle said, "you can
answer," and he said yes. 0age...
Mr& .o)le% %a& #e ar)ue that o&e- 4 mea&3 that seems li2e they6re t#o physi%ia&s
%ommu&i%ati&) about the treatme&t o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&. That seems to be %lear =01 evide&%e
%ode3 ma2es it a& ex%eptio& to hearsay. .&d i0 it6s hearsay at all. 4 do&6t 2&o# i0 it6s eve&
hearsay at all. 4t6s his u&dersta&di&) o0 #hat #as )oi&) o& duri&) the treatme&t o0 'i%hael
1a%2so&3 a&d it supports his a%tio&s later 0or termi&ati&) the tour.
Ju#$e% %a& 4 as2 you #hy is it i0 this... .t the e&d o0 the tour3 'i%hael 1a%2so& %ame out
publi%ly a&d admitted that he had a dru) problem3 #hy are #e )oi&) throu)h this exer%ise #ith
9i&2elstei&- 4s there somethi&) i& parti%ular that is bei&) o00ered... 46m *ust %urious.
Mr& anish% yes. 'r. Do&)a#are de&ies that he had a&y 2&o#led)e #hatsoever that it o%%urred3
a&d it6s dire%t impea%hme&t o0 'r. Do&)a#are #ho #as o& the tour a&d his 2&o#led)e. .&d he
said i& his testimo&y that he &ever 2&e# a&ythi&) duri&) the tour u&til the tour #as lo&) over a&d
the& they put up that stateme&t that 'i%hael 1a%2so& made3 a&d he mira%ulously remembered3
Coh3 4 sa# that o& T. E. 3 a&d that6s ho# 4 2&e#. C so it )oes to dire%tly impea%h him as to &oti%e
o0 him a&d .ED as o0 'i%hael 1a%2so&6s %o&ditio&.
Ju#$e% my re%olle%tio& #as duri&) the depositio&3 that $r. 9i&2elstei& said that he did tell him3
so #hy all this other stu00-
Mr& .o)le% to sho# the exte&t o0 the issue. 4 mea&3 #e6re tal2i&) about $r. 9ore%ast brea2i&)
i&to $r. 9i&2elstei&6s ba) to )et stu00 0or 'i%hael3 a&d they #ere dis%ussi&) the %o&ditio&
throu)hout the tour. 4 mea&3 ri)ht there... That6s a )reat example. C@uestio&. . . C
Ju#$e% #ell3 did he dis%uss that #ith Paul Do&)a#are- 4 do&6t thi&2 there6s a&ythi&) about...
Mr& .o)le% he testi0ied that he tal2ed to 'r. Do&)a#are every si&)le day a&d told him
everythi&)3 esse&tially.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 that6s &ot the %ase.
Mr& ut'an% that is #hy they #a&t this i&3 your ho&or.
Mr& anish% 'r. Do&)a#are... Jemember3 'r. Do&)a#are6s brother... 'r. Do&)a#are #or2ed
#ith $r. 9i&2elstei&6s brother 0or ma&y years be0ore a&y o0 this o%%urredM a&d the reaso& that $r.
9i&2elstei& #as o& the tour #as be%ause o0 'r. Do&)a#are bri&)i&) him. 7o they have this
relatio&ship or3 %ertai&ly a reaso&able i&0ere&%e i0 you6re tal2i&) to him every day a&d you6re the
do%tor3 you6re )oi&) to tell him #hat6s )oi&) o&3 as he says he did. .&d this is more
%orroboratio& o0 his stateme&t that he told 'r. Do&)a#are3 a&d this sho#s 0urther evide&%e to
%orroborate. 8o#3 they6re )oi&) to %ome i& a&d atta%2 him a&d say he did&6t tell 'r. Do&)a#are3
a&d that... .&d so i0 they #a&t to stipulate that 'r. Do&)a#are #as a#are o0 this3 #hi%h they6re
&ot )oi&) to do be%ause he6s de&ied it... This is 0urther %orroboratio& o0 #hat $r. 9i&2elstei&
says that he told 'r. Do&)a#are3 his 0rie&d.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 there are a %ouple o0 problems #ith #hat #as *ust represe&ted there.
9irst3 &o&e o0 this testimo&y... There6s &o testimo&y 0rom a&yo&e at a&y poi&t that says $r.
9i&2elstei& told Paul Do&)a#are #hat $r. 9ore%ast had told him or #hat $r. 9ore%ast thou)ht.
The testimo&y 0rom $r. 9i&2elstei& is3
"I got to /angkok, I treated Michael once, I had some concerns about his health status and
whether he might have a dependency problem based on what I witnessed in that 123hour period.
"I e%pressed that to a group of tour promoters, I dont remember whether Mr. 4ongaware was
one of the people in the room. I then proceeded to spend the three and a half months on tour in
the b tour group. "
7o there6s the a )roup... That6s the artist a&d his e&toura)e... The b3 #hi%h is the ba&dM the %3
#hi%h is the %re#. .&d so $r. 9i&2elstei& #as retai&ed as the do%tor 0or the 1F0 people #ho
#ere o& the tour #ho #ere &ot 'r. 1a%2so&3 a&d that6s the )roup o0 people he #as ha&)i&) out
#ith. He said he did spea2 #ith 'r. Do&)a#are 0re@ue&tly3 but he de&ied spea2i&) to him about
'r. 1a%2so& or his medi%al %are3 he de&ied havi&) a&y i&tera%tio& #ith 'r. 1a%2so& re)ardi&) his
medi%al %are3 other tha& at the very e&d o0 the tour i& 'exi%o %ity. .&d his testimo&y #ith
respe%t to that is there #as some de%isio& made by somebody to do sort o0 a& i&terve&tio& #ith
'r. 1a%2so&3 EliAabeth Taylor #as %alled3 she 0le# i&3 a&d the& 'r. 1a%2so& #as se&t o00 to
rehabilitatio&. He made the a&&ou&%eme&t about it3 a&d $r. 9i&2elstei& )ot o& a pla&e a&d #e&t
home a&d #as&6t i&volved i& the i&tri%a%ies o0 that pro%ess. .&d so this improper i&0ere&%e that
they6re tryi&) to dra#... 4t6s improper that they6re tryi&) to dra# a& i&0ere&%e that there #ere
these %o&sta&t %o&versatio&s bet#ee& $r. 9i&2elstei& a&d 'r. Do&)a#are about 'r. 1a%2so&6s
health3 a&d that6s &ot supported by the re%ord. ?ut eve& setti&) that aside3 they6re the& tryi&) to
%ompou&d that by addi&) i& there6s this other do%tor #ho Kare& 9aye is )oi&) to say )rabbed her
by the throat a&d %ho2ed her out...
Ju#$e% ri)ht.
Ms& Cahan%... .&d is this3 you 2&o#3 mysterious perso& #ho appears o& the tour3 &obody
2&o#s exa%tly #hat 2i&d o0 do%tor he is. They 2eep tryi&) to say he6s a& a&esthesiolo)ist3 a&d
that6s &ot %o&siste&t #ith my u&dersta&di&)3 but #e have&6t heard a&y #it&ess testimo&y o& that.
?ut this do%tor sho#s up a&d is treati&) 'i%hael. They6re tryi&) to say he6s a& a&esthesiolo)ist3
they6re tryi&) to say Kare& 9aye is sayi&) he physi%ally atta%2ed her3 a&d to the& %reate this idea
that $r. 9ore%ast a&d 'r... ..&d $r. 9i&2elstei& #ere #or2i&) i& %o&%ert a&d havi&) these
%la&desti&e %o&versatio&s about 'r. 1a%2so&6s health%are that the& $r. 9i&2elstei& #as relayi&)
to 'r. Do&)a#are is *ust &ot supported by the re%ord3 a&d it6s )oi&) to be pre*udi%ial3 a&d it6s... 4
still have&6t heard #hat 4 believe to be a valid hearsay ex%eptio& or exemptio&.
Mr& .o)le% your ho&or3 4 mea&3 the poi&t is at the... .t the e&d o0 the tour3 or the premature e&d
o0 the tour i& 'exi%o %ity3 $r. 9i&2elstei& testi0ied that he tal2ed to the ma&a)eme&t people3
#hi%h he admitted #ould have i&%luded Paul Do&)a#are3 a&d told them that he thou)ht that
'i%hael had a problem #ith opiates. .&d these $r. 9ore%ast stateme&ts are part o0 his
2&o#led)e that led to him telli&) the people that3 a&d the& the sho# #as %a&%elled a&d there #as
a& i&terve&tio&. 7o that6s #hy 46ve bee& tryi&) to say i&itially &o&e o0 it is hearsayM a&d i0 it is
hearsay3 it6s part o0 t#o treati&) physi%ia&s tal2i&) about the treatme&t o0 a patie&t. ?ut the& it
ultimately led to him telli&) at the e&d this... This story. 4 mea& they6re tryi&) to mi&imiAe the
i&volveme&t...
Ju#$e% #hat you6re sayi&) is that 9i&2elstei& says that he told the tour ma&a)ers at the e&d o0 the
tour3 rou)hly3 about the time 1a%2so& admitted the problem-
Mr& .o)le% that he told 'r. Do&)a#are...
Ju#$e% that he had a dru) problem-
Mr& .o)le%... Earlier a&d the& told everybody else at the e&d based o& all the 2&o#led)e that he
)ot 0rom 0ore%ast3 as #ell as his o#& perso&al 2&o#led)e3 &ot *ust o&e treatme&t.
Ju#$e% #hat is the 9i&2elstei& stateme&t- He said3 "I told 4ongaware, I told the tour promoters,
I told. . . " at #hat poi&t did he tell them-
Mr& .o)le% Hreadi&)I:
+. )nd did you speak to Mr. 4ongaware about what was going on with Mr. -ackson in Me%ico
City? ). I have no independent recollection, but I... If you want me to speculate, I would
speculate yes. 5ell, did you speak to Mr. 4ongaware a lot on this tour? ). #es my friend.
'kay. +. 'kay. Did you talk to him every day, pretty much, on the tour? ). 6es. +. )nd
would you talk to him about what was going on with the artist? ). 6es. +. &o its a fair
assumption that you would have told Mr. 4ongaware what was going on with Mr. -acksons
opiate problems on the tour? ). 6es.
Ju#$e% o2ay. 7o...
Ms& Cahan% it #as %lear that he #as spe%ulati&) there3 a&d he said he had &o i&depe&de&t
re%olle%tio& o0 the %o&versatio&s 0rom 20 years a)o.
Ju#$e% a&d #hat #as my ruli&) o& that-
Mr& .o)le% that6s i&.
Ju#$e% o2ay. That6s all you &eed. 5hat... ,2ay. 5hat you6re tryi&) to do is support that #ith
all this other stu003 a&d 4 u&dersta&d #hy you6d #a&t to do it3 but...
Mr& anish% but they6re ar)ui&)...
Ms& Cahan% yes. 7o the 0our are pa)e ;03 li&es 3 to 11M pa)e 12:3 li&es 3 to ;. 4t6s ri)ht here.
Pa)e 12:3 li&e 233 to pa)e 1303 li&e >M a&d pa)e 13F3 li&e 2G3 to pa)e 13;3 li&e =.
Mr& .o)le% o2ay. Here6s the problem3 your ho&or. +a& #e )o 0irst to 12:<23 throu)h 13>-
Ju#$e% 4 mea&3 i& the problem o0... 4 mea&3 i& the abse&%e o0 somethi&) that dire%tly addresses
this issue3 46m &ot i&%li&ed to allo# it i&.
Mr& .o)le% here6s #hat 4 #as )oi&) to poi&t out.
Ju#$e% you 2&o#3 perhaps i& the 0ederal system there6s a little more lee#ay #ith these reliability
stateme&ts. 4t seems to me stateme&ts bet#ee& physi%ia&s %o&%er&i&) treatme&t is somethi&)
that #ould be i&here&tly reliable. ?ut i0 the appellate %ourts have limited the reliability 0or these
types o0 stateme&ts to %ome i& i& %hild molestatio& %ases3 u&der3 you 2&o#3 %ertai&
%ir%umsta&%es3 this *ust does&6t 0it.
Mr& .o)le% 4 u&dersta&d the %ourt6s ruli&)3 a&d 4 respe%t itM but 4 thi&2 there6s a problem #ith
#hat they6re tryi&) to 2eep out. 9or example3 at 12:3 li&e... This is part o0 the se%tio& that she
*ust read that they #a&t to 2eep out3 a&d maybe it6s a mista2e. ?ut there6s a @uestio&... The
@uestio& is Hreadi&)I:
+. 5hat physicians visited on tour? Do you remember any of their names. *his is me asking
Dr. ,inkelstein 8reading9: ). )rnie (lein and #oefflin, I believe it was. I believe it might have
been &teve #oefflin. +. Do you remember when on the tours they visited? *hats not a
,inkelstein;forecast communication.
Ju#$e% #hat6s #ro&) #ith that stateme&t-
Ms& Cahan% that6s &ot part o0 #hat #e6re tryi&) to ex%lude.
Mr& .o)le% but it is.
Ms& Cahan% &o. 12:3 li&e 3 to ;3 a&d the& 12:3 li&e 233 to pa)e 1303 li&e >.
Mr& .o)le% oh3 that6s &ot part o0 it.
Ms& Cahan% &o. 5e #ere o2ay #ith that.
Mr& .o)le% oh3 46m sorry. That6s 0i&e. Dood deal.
Ms& Cahan% = to 22 o& that pa)e3 #e are &ot tal2i&) about today.
Mr& .o)le% very )ood. ,2ay. .ll ri)ht. 5hat are you )oi&) to do- 4 #o& that o&e.
Ms& Cahan% #e #ere&6t 0i)hti&) about that o&e.
tomorro#... 4 #a&t to 0irst %lear up the thi&) that you said3 a&d 4 2i&d o0 thi&2 that6s #hat you
ruled be0ore. /ou #ere sayi&) that about $r. Earley. 8o# 4 u&dersta&d that applies to $r.
9i&2elstei&. 7o 4 #ill )o ba%2 a&d loo2 at the %ut<up tra&s%ript to see i0 #e %a& live #ith itM or i0
#e %a&6t3 4 2&o# the& 4 %a&6t play it i0 4 #a&t to %all him live. 5e have him u&der subpoe&a. He
has&6t bee& that available. He #as o&ly o& the 9riday s%heduleM a&d3 obviously3 #e had a&other
9riday issue #e have to deal #ith 0irst. 46ll let you 2&o# about that tomorro#. That6s all 4
#a&ted to %lear up about the ruli&)3 i0 #e played it3 #e %a&6t %all him. 4 #a&t to ma2e sure.
Ju#$e% 4 thi&2 that #as true. 4 thi&2 #e6ve bee& operati&) u&der that this #hole trial #ith
everybody a&d everybody u&derstood that. 40 46m #ro&)...
Mr& .o)le% Earley #as a little di00ere&t3 but 4 u&dersta&d #hat you6re sayi&). 4 *ust #a&t to %lear
that up.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 *ust o& a )oi&)<0or#ard basis3 4 u&dersta&d the desire to see #hat )ets
ruled i& a&d out be0ore ma2i&) a 0i&al de%isio&3 althou)h that6s really a separate issue. ?ut #e
have spe&t literally hours ar)ui&) over a&d resear%hi&) these 0e# poi&ts re)ardi&) $r. 9ore%ast
a&d his stateme&ts3 a&d i0 #e %ould avoid this 2i&d o0 situatio& )oi&) 0or#ard3 be%ause it6s
%o&sumi&) a treme&dous amou&t o0 time #here #e %ould other#ise be havi&) testimo&y o%%ur...
.&d maybe there #as some %o&0usio& about #hat the rules #ere i& terms o0 doi&) live plus depo
or live or depo. ?ut *ust o& a& o&)oi&) basis...
Mr& anish% #e have&6t do&e that #ith a&y other #it&ess3 they6re all played.
Mr& .o)le% #e6ve bee& tryi&) to limit #hat you have to rule o&3 a&d #e6ve made %lear that the
ruli&)s mi)ht di%tate #hether #e play it. 'r. !ei#e2e has bee& a )reat example. There6s bee& a
lot o0 0i)hti&) here. 5e have spe&t %ourt time o& this3 but it6s %umulatively less tha& i0 #e %all
$r. 9i&2elstei& live #hi%h may be a day a&d a hal0. 5e6re &ot ma2i&) the %ourt or a&ybody do
extra #or2. 5e did a lot o0 resear%h3 tooM a&d the ruli&)s %ame out #here they %ame out.
Ju#$e% 4 2&o#3 but it does seem a little but li2e a bait a&d s#it%h 2i&d o0 thi&)3 you 2&o#.
Mr& anish% #ait a mi&ute. Everyo&e that #e6ve ruled o&3 #e6ve played. ,2ay- 5e have&6t
eve& )ot to this #hether it6s )oi&) to be played or &ot3 so there6s &o bait a&d s#it%h3 your ho&or.
Every o&e that you6ve ruled o& has bee& played3 so there6s bee& &o bait a&d s#it%h. The o&ly
@uestio& #as about this3 a&d #e did&6t 2&o# these... .&d #e thi&2 it6s pretty importa&t to our
%ase be%ause they6re %ompletely de&yi&) it3 so... 5e did a lot o0 time3 too. 5e do&6t have the
0or%es they have3 but #e spe&t a lot o0 time resear%hi&) the issues. /ou %a& see that a&d3 you
2&o#3 #e did&6t #i&3 so... 4 mea&3 4 do&6t 2&o# #hy it6s a bait a&d s#it%h #he& every o&e you6ve
ruled o&3 #e6ve played.
Ju#$e% 4 )uess the @uestio& 4 have 0or you is ho# is it )oi&) to be%ome &o&<hearsay *ust be%ause
he %omes i& live- 4 )uess 4 %a& liste& to ho# it #ould be%ome &o&<hearsay *ust be%ause he %omes
i& live3 but it still seems to be hearsay.
Mr& .o)le% be%ause 4 %ould as2 him a di00ere&t @uestio&3 or 'r. Pa&ish %ould as2 him a di00ere&t
@uestio&3 Cdid you have a& u&dersta&di&) based o& some other reaso&. . . C
Ju#$e% 4 have to say there6s bee& a lot o0 abuse i& this trial o0 that @uestio&.
Mr& anish% starti&) #ith Do&)a#are a&d Phillips bei&) @uestio&ed by de0e&se.
Ju#$e% both sides have used that @uestio&3 Cdo you have a& u&dersta&di&)3C a&d it al#ays eli%its
hearsay. ?ut3 a&y#ay...
Mr& anish% 4 a)ree. 4 #as ob*e%ti&) li2e %raAy about that #he& 'r. Trell #as o& a&d the %ourt
allo#ed it.
Ju#$e% 4 2&o#3 4 2&o#.
Mr& anish% 4 #as the o&e ob*e%ti&) to it.
Ju#$e% both sides.
Mr& anish% #ell3 o&%e that6s the rule3 that it6s u&dersta&di&)3 46m )oi&) to )o by the rules3 you
2&o#. ?ut 4 ob*e%ted3 i0 you re%all3 #he& that 0irst started.
Ju#$e% probably.
Mr& anish% 4 #as the o&e ob*e%ti&)3 sayi&) there6s &o su%h thi&) as that. ,2ay- The& they 2ept
telli&) you it is3 a&d a%tio&s based o& that3 a&d that6s #hat6s bee& the rule i& this trial.
Mr& ut'an% your ho&or3 4 thi&2 that6s a very sele%tive re0ere&%e o0 #hat a%tually has tra&spired
here i& the last seve& #ee2s. .&d 4 do re%all that #e a%tually 0ollo#ed them i& this lead3 your
ho&or.
Ms& Cahan% your ho&or3 may 4 *ust as2 i0 they6re &ot )oi&) to be playi&) $r. 9i&2elstei&6s
depositio& tomorro#3 #hi%h 4 had u&derstood #as )oi&) to ta2e up additio&al time a0ter a short...
5hat 4 u&dersta&d to be short exami&atio&s o0 'r. T. 1. 1a%2so& a&d 'r. Ta* 1a%2so&3 #e6d li2e
to 2&o# #hat else #ill be happe&i&) tomorro#.
Mr& anish% absolutely.
Ju#$e% )ood @uestio&. 5hat are #e )oi&) to do &ext- 46m assumi&) you6re usi&) your pho&e to
ma2e that determi&atio&3 'r. Pa&ish-
Mr& anish% 4 #as loo2i&) 0or... 4 had as2ed i0 there #as a&other #it&ess that %ould %ome3 a&d
46m loo2i&)3 a&d 4 do&6t have a respo&se.
Mr& ut'an% is this the ei)ht<hour &oti%e 46m )oi&) to )et 0or #hoever the &ext #it&ess is-
Ju#$e% i0 they6re ob*e%ti&)3 they have to have time to prepare. Everybody &eeds time to prepare.
5hat 46m sayi&) is #e6ll bri&) them i&3 do #hatever #e %a& do a&d se&d them home. 4t happe&s
sometimes. 46ve bee& o& that side3 4 2&o# #hat it6s li2e. /ou #a&t to prepare. 7o #e6ll *ust do
#hat #e %a& tomorro# #ith the #it&esses you have. ,2ay-
Mr& anish% 0air e&ou)h.
Mr& .o)le% %ertai&ly.
Ms& Cahan% tha&2 you3 your ho&or.
Ju#$e% tha&2 you.