Introduction News About Bogton Road and Forres The 2011 Vote The Proposal The Opposition Moray

Council Redco Milne Common Good Land FAQ Resources - Downloads Links Images Other issues Cluny Hill, Old Tescos building Nuisance Neighbour The Big Picture INTRODUCTION
The procedure for the sale or lease of Common Good assets is the subject of a report to councillors next week. The report, to Moray Councils policy and resources committee, sets out the requirements for asset transfers and Common Good property sales, which may include land at Bogton Road, Forres which was recently the subject of a proposed retail development by Aberdeenbased Redco Milne. The company was given outline planning permission for the development earlier this month. In the report a clear timeline is detailed from start to finish if individuals or groups wish to purchase or adopt assets from the council. These include some halls, buildings and other property. Any Common Good decisions have to be taken and approved by the full council. The convener of Moray Council, Councillor Stewart Cree, said that the disposal of Common Good assets requires a detailed scrutiny and extensive consultation process with the relevant community. Referring to the Forres Common Good Fund, he said: In the event of any approach being made to either purchase or lease the land for development, negotiations would require to take place over the value of the site. Once any such approach is made a valuation will have to be established with input from an independent valuer. The council, in full consultation with the people of Forres, will then be required to decide whether or not to proceed with the disposal of the site. If it was subsequently agreed to dispose of the land, an application to do so would require to be lodged with Elgin Sheriff Court. The disposal of the land could only follow approval from the sheriff who has to be satisfied that the council is acting in the best interests of the community. The proceeds of the sale or lease of the Common Good land would be credited to the Forres Common Good account. So far as the relocation of the Forres Mechanics FC ground is concerned, that is a matter for discussion and negotiation between Redco Milne and the football club. Outline planning permission has already been given for a replacement stadium. Subsequent detailed planning applications for both the football stadium and the retail development would be required which, again, would be determined solely on planning grounds.

http://www.moraysnp.org/news.php? id=117&cat_id&p&search#ontitle Moray MSP welcomes positive response on Forres Community Council concerns If you have just joined us - Welcome to "The Battle for Bogton". I started this page on the 12th June 2013 in response to Moray Council granting outline planning permission to Redco Milne for a proposed shopping mall and car park on our common good land.

THis was despite a comprehensive consultation exercise being carried out 2 years ago when 70% of 1,713 respondents said NO to selling off our Common Good land for this development. I felt angry.

CHARITY begins at home they say; but for a lot of folks living in and around the Bogton Road area of town, the only thing they are thinking about giving to Moray Council this week, is a piece of their mind. Bogton off - Residents tell Redco Residents are so fed up with the decision to grant outline planning permission to Redco MIlne for a retail development that they have formed a Bogton Road Action Group and are planning to actively campaign against the decision. They are not taking this laying down. The little community has rekindled the spirit of the Shanghiers (a name previously given to Bogton when it was described as looking like Shanty Town after the war) and joined together in its condemnation of the planning process. Residents feel let down, and are describing the decision as not democratic. Their argument centres around the results of an official poll commissioned by Moray Council, which asked the people living in the area encompassed by the boundaries of the Forres Common Good if they wanted to sell their land. The answer came back clearly as no. Someone pointed out that although it was 70% of people who returned a no vote; that this was from only approximately 30% of the total eligible electorate ie not very many. But as this is about the same amount who turn out to vote in local elections which puts councillors in their seats - that blows that argument out of the water. But the truth is that the majority of the eleven out of the twelve eligible members of the planning committee who voted (which is less than half the total of Moray Councillors) they decided that the development was not contravening any planning procedures - or at least not enough to warrant them turning it down and they voted to allow it with an 8-3 result. But people living around Bogton Road do not agree with that decision. They feel that they outlined issues which were of legitimate planning concern, including the impact on the town centre, and an unacceptable increase of traffic and the suitability of local roads, but councillors argued that these issues were covered in supplementary reports and planning conditions, so were over-ruled. So what happens next? If a full planning application is received - which is likely to happen - then the developer must negotiate with the council over purchase or lease of Common Good land, so the development can go ahead. A case must be put to the Sheriff Court by the council who must prove that as owners fo the Forres Common good fund, that they are acting in the best interests of the town. The councils legal officer stated in chamber last week that a consultation will take place with the people of Forres so that their views can be taken into account. At this point, one should point out that three online polls - two conducted by the Gazette have all returned a no vote.

Developers must also negotiate with homeowners whose houses stand in their way. Then comes the issues of Forres Mechanics FC. Homeowners and the football club are stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place or are they? Certainly in the case of the Cans, their chairman has stated they will be guided by what the people of Forres want, but that they must safeguard the club for the future. Those two arguments dont sit alongside each other. At the moment they stand to gain a brand new stadium, if their old stadium has to go; although the issue of who will pay for it doesnt seem clear yet. Do the people of Forres want to move them? No they dont.and dont forget the Cans currently have Right to Buy their ground under the Community Land Act, registered by the Government. So the question is Should the people of Forres give up their land for a payoff that may well go straight into a fund that they wil see very little of - as they are only eligible for the interest from the Common Good - swapping it for a view of shops and metal fences. And surely that land has now increased considerably in value, as it now has outline planning permission. Lets hope that Moray Council can see past the promises of the Golden Goose and will make the right decision for the people of Forres, as per their obligations as guardians of the Common Good.

REDCO MILNE Redco Milne Limited is an Active business incorporated in Scotland on 1st March 2008. Their business activity is recorded as Development Of Building Projects. Redco Milne Limited is run by 4 current members. and 1 company secretary. 2 shareholders own the total shares within the company. It is not part of a group. The latest Annual Accounts submitted to Companies House for the year up to 30/06/2012 reported 'cash at bank' of 3,816, 'liabilities' worth 3,037,363, 'net worth' of -798,076 and 'assets' worth 2,239,287. Redco Milne Limited's risk score was amended on 03/04/2013. http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/redco-milne THE 2011 VOTE The official vote against has already happened so I would argue that it is undemocratic. Also, if I came and got planning permission to put up a statue in your garden and then started to debate it with you, you'd rightly tell me to bog off. You wouldn't open a fb group to discuss it...this is how bamboozled people have become without even realising it.....I agree with everything you have said, once

Redco have gone. We can then invite them back IF the people choose to do so. Until then we must, I believe, have control back in the town..Rich July 1 at 10:26a Its a bit like someone saying "we want the land your house is on and your huge garden but don't worry we will pay to build you a new house at the bottom of your garden and own the rest of the land in exchange for doing that" The problem there Scott is that Forres folk have already spoken in the last consultation exercise - they have been ignored and thats why there is anger and suspicion of a 'stitch up'
The real issue is the determination of the vested interest brigade to ride roughshod over the objections of those consulted in the first instance.Although we have a 'Unitary Authority' The issue really has nothing to do with Moray council,too often the assets gifted or otherwise to now defunct Town Councils are subsumed into the maw of officialdom that has no real knowledge of the feelings of those immediately affected.As far as common good assets are concerned Moray council should butt out and leave the decision making process to those intimately connected to the impact on the local community i.e. Forres elected officials and those who they represent. Of course one can be accused of being simplistic taking this view,especially by those likely to make a buck or two out of this whole charade.Redco Milne have allready proved themselves disingenuous and should be sent packing.

THE PROPOSAL
A spokesman for Redco Milne said: We are pleased to have secured the support of Moray Council for our proposed retail development in Forres. It is our intention to contact the residents of Bogton Road with a view to arranging a number of informal workshops sessions to address and discuss the range of views expressed at the planning hearing regarding our development. The company is applying to Moray Council for a demolition warrant to take down the existing store and we hope this is granted at the earliest opportunity . Granting of outline planning permission will now allow for more specific discussions with retailers and will allow a dialogue to begin with Moray Council in respect of delivering a new stadium for Forres Mechanics and other aspects of our plans for the site. We look forward to taking forward this dialogue and our contact with Bogton Road residents in the next few weeks. From P & J http://www.moray.gov.uk/minutes/results.asp?commit=PR&Type=%3F %3F&start_day=12&start_month=03&start_year=2007&end_day=03&end_month=07&en d_year=2013

MORAY COUNCIL MORAY COUNCIL

Is it only Forres councilors. No all 26 of them. Is it a small possibility that the council could use the money from the sale of common good land to cover deficits?

http://www.forres-gazette.co.uk/News/Government-to-consult-ForresCommunity-Council-on-Common-Good-02072013.htm

Clovenside Cottage between Forbeshill and Cluny Hill has recently been sold. Forres Community Council claim that it was Common Good property and the proceeds should go to the Common Good Fund. CG land - Legal Opinion Cockenzie and Port Seton CC versus East Lothian Distric Council.pdf
Apropos of nothing do you think that the councillors who are against this development should be approached for their opinion/assistance?

Stewart Noble Go for it Jackie Longley - the e-mail addresses are in the file section. I sent out 26 and got just three replies. All replies to be posted here.

COMMON GOOD LAND They can sell the land if they think it's for the good of the people. They don't need permission, but if people object to the sale they have to go to court and the court will decide.They have promised consultation on this and if enough people object they will have to go to court, and it doesn't have to be a majority as I understand it.It comes under case law I've been told and is complicated. www.elcscotland.org.uk/resources/CommonGoodandtheLaw.pdf murraystable.com site, very informative. Would be useful to post it on main page. The jist of it is that regardless of the mechanism of the law, the councilors would need to consult the public before making a recommendation to apply to sell the land and representation at the Court of Session would need to come from individuals or community council, not 'activists'! Stewart Noble Aaron John McLean, Pearl Paul and Margo Howe voted AGAINST outline planning consent. 8 non Forres councllors voted for it . Come the full council vote to sell our common good land, George Alexander will probably have to abstain as he has an interest in Forres Mechanics (so that's a whole lot of Forres folk with no voice!) That leaves 14 councilors who have yet to say where they stand on how they will vote on this key issue - to sell or not to sell. "It depends" is not acceptable. http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_standard/page_1247.html
If you live inside the dotted line on this map then YOU co- own ALL of the common good assets of Forres and must be consulted on its disposition. From what I could understand, the council would hold the money and then yearly a percentage of the money can be applied for by groups, projects etc. I'm not sure if they can use this money in other investments or not. http://www.scottishcommons.org/

If it's the local town council that's the overseers if the common good land, Why are Moray council getting involved?. After regionalisation in 1975 - common good assets were transferred from the Towns that were responsible for them. (Read up on this in The quick guide to the common

good document in the files section Kellie). The 26 elected Moray councilors are now the sole Trustees. but they must do what 'is in the best interests of the local people" and that's where things get sticky! More information on this here; http://www.scottishcommons.org/project.htm The point with Common Good property is that it does not need to be registered until it is disposed of ie officially it does not exist. It is however in the ownership of MC ie they have the original deeds. When it is disposed of it has to be registered with the Court of Sassines. This registration is in the name of the seller ie MC and then the history of the property is available ie if the previous owner was the Royal Burgh of Forres then it was owned by them (or us) in 1975 and by CG rules, we submit, CG when disposed of. Colin has all of these rules available.
Until the Burgh Reform Act of 1833 the landowners and the commercial bourgeois class controlled all burghal administration of the common lands, and controlled it in such a way that vast areas of common lands were quietly appropriated, trust funds wholly disappeared, and to such a length did the plunder and the corruption develop, that some ancient burghs with valuable patrimonies went bankrupt, some disappeared altogether from the map of Scotland, some had their charters confiscated, and those which survived to the middle of the nineteenth century were left mere miserable starved caricatures of their former greatness, their Common Good funds gone, their lands fenced in private ownership, and their treasurers faced often with crushing debts. Tom Johnston, 1920. A History of the Working Classes in Scotland.

Andy Wightman's & James Permian's' paper on common good land http://www.scottishcommons.org/docs/commongood_v3.pdf "The history of the common good over the centuries has been a history of wise stewardship followed by corruption, nepotism, cronyism and criminality. Today the situation is characterised by ignorance, bad record-keeping, impoverished funds, confusion and a continuing dose of cronyism, nepotism and evidence of occasional criminality." Tez Watson Suggested petition wording: The undersigned people of Scotland demand that the Scottish Parliament create a new framework of laws to return authority over Common Good assets/funds to either a local Community Council or separate board of elected trustees if no Community Council exists instead of assets/funds being administered by local authority councillors not elected by the community to which the Common Good assets were gifted. We request that this matter is thoroughly investigated and swiftly actioned before further assets are lost or Common Good principles are further discredited.

I see there is a news item about Common Good Land http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_news/news_87250.html have put copy in a word format Procedure for sale of common good land http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_news/news_87250.html http://www.inthecommongood.org/start/common-good-guide/

THE OPPOSITION Bogton is an age old name that belies the area. It is very picturesque and rural, people have worked hard on their homes and they really look beautiful, they deserve the present outlook, - the grand, free, natural variety of the landscape. Why are we against this?
Forres is a beautiful place to live and bring up children, we need to retain our green spaces. We don't need another supermarket or retail units, we need to support the High Street. Landlords need to drop their rents to encourage new businesses, would they not be better having someone in their property for a reduced rent or have it lying empty. We are lu

to live in a town like Forres, we don't need another concrete jungle, we need to say NO to this development going ahead! Sandi Bayne
Celia McKenna On the subject of big retailers approaches to local communities: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23158973 Tesco tweet awesome work in getting planning permission http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_standard/page_85465.html

New report: "The National Review of Town Centres", commissioned by the Scottish Government includes the following recommendations: A "town centre first" principle whereby public bodies will consider how they can support town centres before considering development elsewhere and that public bodies should consider the impact of proposals to relocate services out of town centres http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-23168718 http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00426972.pdf National Review of Town Centres: External Advisory Group Report: Community and Enterprise in Scotland's Town Centres. This was discussed on BBC radio Scotland this morning.

FORRES HIGH STREET

does anyone actually know the number of empty shops we have on our high street and little side streets at the moment? What sort of investment would the town see if these units were filled even with 'pop up' style events? Was kindly informed last night that there are 9 empty shops in the town centre last night, these include prominent shops like de and Victoria wines and then smaller units on tollbooth and Caroline street. How many jobs would that equate too and if landlords and tenants were both local, how much investment would that bring to Forres? June 26

Doreen Taylor When I was growing up in Forres, the High Street had everything. There were drapers (remember that word?), fishmonger, greengrocers, small independent grocers, butchers, bookshops, shoe shops (3) everything a town needed to be self-sufficient. We also had a working hospital - I had my tonsils removed at Leanchoil! No-one needed to go to Elgin or Nairn or Inverness. We had everything on our doorstep. The town was buzzing on a Saturday afternoon, it was an exciting place to be in. I'm not saying that we should return to the past. What I'm saying is that we are now almost double the population here compared to the 60s and 70s of my youth, but almost a quarter of the facililties to serve a special town like Forres. That the high street needs regenerating isn't the crux of the matter. That is the costs of rents of retail places. I wonder if the owners of these empty shops are following this discussion. June 26 at 10:03am Like 6 Sarah Jane Munro I remember those little shops ones where you could go in and use a scoop for everyday needs ie coffee ceral flour ect ect I wish we still had that as I would never be away lol. and fresh fish from the shop and fruit orchard was my nan fav shop for fruit n veg plus my granddad use to have his own veg patch and green house in garden.. I loved that...
I remembered there been a material shop down Memory Lane next to Forres Gazette office, other side of street been a copper next to flower shop. I have seen many changes in the high street on webpage http://www.highstreetuk.com/forres/ for some of old shops that have closed, changed properties names this post is not aimed at being a plug for our shop. it is to raise the piont that many folk have been posting the lack of things you can buy in forres. it makes me think do folks know what shops are in forres? comments like now that DE is cosed there is nowhere to buy shoes or there is nowhere to buy mens or chidrens clothes all of which we have stocked over the last 3 years. we get local people in every week who ask are we just open?, and when i say no we have been open 3 years the most common answer is "oh well i never shop in forres"

Are High Street Rents too high? Kellie Shearer The rates depend on the size of the shop. I do not pay rates as my shop is small. And my rent is very small. It all comes down to landlords and how much they want to charge.

IS THIS PROJECT INEVITALBE ut that doesn't mean that the first plan offered has to be accepted for the sake of 'something rather than nothing.' Other communities have prevented similar projects. hat's why we need to let the objectors to this have a strong voice. To many decisions are out of our hands and we all live with the consequences. ou cannot please everyone, decisions had to be made and avian it's people who we democratically voted in who made them. I'm maybe being blunt because I can understand everyone's views and frustrations but its reality. I think the health centre plans went through relatively quietly and perhaps people were not given the chance to voice their objections. Apart from that though a health centre is important to the infrastructure of a developing town, not sure the same can be said for a retail development, but that does not take away from the people who have to live with that particular development on their doorstep. It's not about rejecting progress, it's about protecting the interests of the people of Forres and a changing retail world that is encouraging small retailers. I also see the loss of green land at Bogton as a high price to pay. Yes, we have a world economic crisis ....... caused by the corporate capitalists that now run the world. Their influence over governments is total. There is no democracy. Do people honestly believe that government policies are made in the interests of the majority? These corporate interests control the media, so they control what most people believe ....... their thoughts. My guess is the developers will win out in the end. They have the money, the power, and with the state of the economy, the locals , and the local authorities will be persuaded (reluctantly, in most cases) to go along with them in the end. Very sad! Unless, of course the majority of locals defend the small local shops, that truly have the local's interests at heart ... REDCO WILL TAKE THEIR MONEY ELSEWHERE cott..saying they will look elsewhere is a fear tactic and nothing more. They are always looking at places to make a profit from; that is their business. If they were going to take that alleged 25million and look elsewhere with that they would have already done so. If the town keeps growing it's balls and does say no to Redco we are in a great position to start to control our own destiny and not have it dictated by a corporation without a care for the town.... Check this out folks - there have been so many developments like Redcos proposal and this shows how good or bad they have been.. http://www.designcouncil.org.uk/Documents/Documents/Publications/CABE/supermarket-leddevelopment.pdf 25 MILLION POUNDS AND 500 JOBS

My guess is that most of the 25M will be spent by Redco to Stewart Milne the builders. And most of the 500 jobs will be for Stewart Milne the builders. Liddles employs just 8 people. How many High Street jobs will be lost? We need to research this.I agree Stewart, but I must stress again that the 500 figure, based on evidence from previous corporate estimates for developments, is most likely pure fantasy..That is the one fact we have from history of these sorts of things...Rich Redco are not a charity although I suspect that a lot of the 25M will be public money via Sportscotland ? Regretably most of the information we would need to make a measured decision will be classified as 'commercially sensitive' and therefore not told to us How does the 25M breakdown? How are the 500 jobs made up? Who will lease the units ? etc.Commercially sensitive" is a great term to hide pure fantasy behind too

Redco will own them initially. They will probably lease them and keep the land. The lease income is chicken feed compared to the overall deal. Here is my guess: Redco Investors (Stewart MIlne) put 25M into their land fund. They spend 5M (buying the land, clearing the site, moving the cans and providing some 'sweetners' - skate board park etc. They then spend 10M (with Stewart Milne) putting in the drains and building the car park and sheds NB There is no competitive tender here - Stewart Milne can charge Redco as much as they wish. Profit to Redco (Stewart Milne 10M). Stewart Milne Group get lots of work and use their equipment etc. Result Redco (Stewart Milne) now owns a prime development (to lease out) and with which he can do what he wants with in the future and which has cost them next to nothing. plus big Tax benefits to a very profitable company. Am just guessing but that's how 'business' works. The 25M investment is mostly to themselves. The 500 jobs is also mostly for themselves. ??

Redco Investors (Stewart MIlne) put 25M into their land fund. They spend 5M (buying the land, clearing the site, moving the cans and providing some 'sweetners' - skate board park etc. They then spend 10M (with Stewart Milne) putting in the drains and building the car park and sheds NB There is no competitive tender here - Stewart Milne can charge Redco as much as they wish. Profit to Redco (Stewart Milne 10M). Stewart Milne Group get lots of work and use their equipment etc. Result Redco (Stewart Milne) now owns a prime development (to lease out) and with which he can do what he wants with in the future and which has cost them next to nothing. plus big Tax benefits to a very profitable company. Am just guessing but that's how 'business' works. The 25M investment is to themselves. The 500 jobs is also mostly for themselves. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fiona Murdoch To: Mary Shearer Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: RE: Planning hearing 12/6/2013 Hi Mary Thanks for your email during the course of the planning hearing, members of the community suggested that the 500 jobs might not all be new jobs. We were not presented with evidence either way on this issue so my comment merely reflected that there was some dispute over whether all the jobs would be new. Hope this explains it. Cheers! Fiona From: Mary Shearer [mailto:maryshearer2067@btinternet.com] Sent: 26 June 2013 10:01 To: Fiona Murdoch Subject: Planning hearing 12/6/2013 Mrs Murdoch, As I understand it, you suppported/proposed acceptance of the Redco Milne outline planning application. It appears that as part of your thinking process you welcomed the investment on the basis that the proposed development had the potential to provide 500 jobs "whether new or retained". My understanding was that the developer's stance has always been that the development had the potential for 500 new jobs (no mention of retained jobs).

The talk of "retained" jobs suggests that there has been a departure from the developer's original application - can you enlighten me please. Regards Mary Shearer
As an economist, I can say that we always analyse development projects making a clear distinction between jobs created minus jobs destroyed or transferred which gives net jobs created by a project. So Redco need to be forced to quantify the net effect of their development on local employment. Retail jobs are fickle since they depend on other people being employed in other sectors. The 500 jobs number seems totally spurious to me, pulled out of a hat to catch people's attention. The lure of new jobs is particularly attractive in the current climate but once the land is gone and no new jobs appear then we are left with nothing

----- Original Message ----- From: Fiona Murdoch To: Mary Shearer Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: RE: Planning hearing 12/6/2013 Hi Mary Thanks for your email during the course of the planning hearing, members of the community suggested that the 500 jobs might not all be new jobs. We were not presented with evidence either way on this issue so my comment merely reflected that there was some dispute over whether all the jobs would be new. Hope this explains it. Cheers! Fiona From: Mary Shearer [mailto:maryshearer2067@btinternet.com] Sent: 26 June 2013 10:01 To: Fiona Murdoch Subject: Planning hearing 12/6/2013 Mrs Murdoch, As I understand it, you suppported/proposed acceptance of the Redco Milne outline planning application. It appears that as part of your thinking process you welcomed the investment on the basis that the proposed development had the potential to provide 500 jobs "whether new or retained". My understanding was that the developer's stance has always been that the development had the potential for 500 new jobs (no mention of retained jobs). The talk of "retained" jobs suggests that there has been a departure from the developer's original application - can you enlighten me please. Regards Mary Shearer

Mike - my fear is that the proposed development will compete with the high street shops. The local shops can't compete with the buying power of a large supermarket and the local shops will lose custom and be forced to close - with loss of jobs. The developer has claimed the proposal has the potential for 500 new jobs. We suspect this is unrealistic and the developer needs to be challenged on this. An experienced developer, based in Brussels, posted that all developements such as this are usually scrutinised for "net" jobs created. Ie. new jobs created minus jobs destroyed. Redco Milne has not provided this information and the Moray Council do not appear to have asked for it. I find this very worrying.

WONT THIS PROJECT REVITALISE FORRES I think that what at least some folk forget is that if a big retail set up is built at Bogton a) it will not have shops that are endemic to Forres - rather it will be the chain stores and internationals. Whilst money spent, for example in Mackenzie & Cruickshank, Mclean's, McBeth's and other local shops stays in the area any money spent in a supermarket or chain store disappears out-with the area instantly. I'd love to see the return to the High Street of a greengrocer, a wet fishmonger and a good deli. Right now the only place we can turn to for these is Tesco or Sainsbury's in Nairn. I think that is the mistake some people have made thinking we are all against progress or development. It just has to be right for the majority of us and mostly the people who actually have money to spend and know where they want to spend it. Forres High Street, independent local retailers. Scott, there are only a few real facts available as I have posted before: 1) Historically corporate job figures on developments are nonsense, 2) High streets die when retail developments are made away from the town centre and 3) local spending in local businesses tends to keep money in the town, whereas most money spent in other businesses is funnelled away. Whereas I have yet to see ANY facts abut the town's future health on the pro-side....Rich Did I see a reference on Redcos website that they hoped to build a hotel (premier inn or travelodge?) in that area along with more retail units in the long term? I wonder how that would affect the existing hotels and B&B's? yes anna and our remaining common good assets could go the same way (there is a list of them in the files section) yup, a 60 bedroom hotel Stewart When RedcoMilne first came to Forres they mentioned an hotel and a garden centre but that was reduced to what they are planning now.As for Mosset Park,it's a proviso that a new stadium must be built and up and running before they can demolish the old one and since Moray Council have said that this is between Redco and Mechanics my own opinion is,and it is only my opinion,that it's not going to happen as RedcoMilne have already said they're are not paying for it.More information on this is definitely needed. The reference to the Hotel was on Redcos website ShopForres which no longer works???

Anna McApple You can't/shouldn't stop progress is something I'm hearing a lot from those for the development.. but they don't seem to believe there is any alternative to Redco and it's a stark choice between deal with them or watch Forres wither. I'm optimistic about alternatives I hope once Redco has been seen off we can keep up the momentum to provide Forres with support for positive progress. http://web.archive.org/web/20130508163124/http://www.shopforres. co.uk/ This is all that's left on the web, but notice that they are arguing that this is designed to "keep retail spending in the town".....which translates to "money being spent within the town limits" but not "money being taken by local families and spent locally"......it does seem that in these troubled times there are few people willing to drop spin and insinuation for complete honesty. Until we have courses in "mindproofing" ourselves and our children, corporations will continue to use psychology and "dream selling" to bypass our rational minds and get our emotions on side. If anyone thinks that I may be a little paranoid here I would suggest you look at the latest topics in psychology and economics, which focus on the rather large numbers of ways we make cognitive mistakes and how these can be exploited....Rich Stewart Noble well found Rich - does anyone know how to download this website. (I have a feeling there may be evidence of wrong doing in here) I am sure there is software around that can copy a website and its pages? Scott, there are only a few real facts available as I have posted before: 1) Historically corporate job figures on developments are nonsense, 2) High streets die when retail developments are made away from the town centre and 3) local spending in local businesses tends to keep money in the town, whereas most money spent in other businesses is funnelled away. Whereas I have yet to see ANY facts abut the town's future health on the pro-side....Rich http://www.shopforres.co.uk/wpcontent/uploads/2012/10/ForresMechanicsRelocationPlans221012.pd f http://72.30.186.176/search/srpcache?ei=UTF8&p=www.shopforres.co.uk&fr=sfp&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.as px?q=www.shopforres.co.uk&d=5031653985754303&mkt=enUS&setlang=en-US&w=0qvih_Mkf9DwIf-crA5cyD089LvnXQ_&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=8GAkNw4GKU5Nm7DvYQ EVKg-Yahoo! Search - Web Search search.yahoo.com The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the ...See More http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=enGB&biw=&bih=&q=cache:wwdMot-

NG9YJ:http://www.shopforres.co.uk/contact %2Bwww.shopforres.co.uk&gbv=1&ct=clnk http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=enGB&biw=&bih=&q=cache:wwdMot-NG9YJ:http://www.shop http://ebookbrowse.com/5-121108-forres-gazette-redco-milnelaunches-plans-for-forres-pdf-d144590184 5 121108 Forres Gazette Redco Milne launches plans for Forres pdf free ebook download Stewart Noble OK Susan West Why would Redco systematically remove all traces of their ShopForres website. The above references are 'down' now also? We need a website download tool anyone? Susan West Hi Stewart Noble. I don't think this is particularly worrying. I assume they thought they would use the site as propaganda and then realised that it wasn't going to be very effective given the strength of local feeling and the fact that so few people went there. The cache s are all still there...the google ones should work still (mine do) and the yahoo one might need a resubmission but Redco cannot remove them.
Between now and 2018 22% of High Street stores are expected to close. Can Moray Council not see what is happening here? http://www.retailresearch.org/retail2018.php

FARMERS MARKET Sally Anderson LOL we HAD a farmers market, held first Saturday of every month. It started out at Bogton Rd community gardens but moved up to Anderson's school playground. The locals found it difficult getting down to Bogton Rd and the council refused to let it be held anywhere other than Anderson's. it ran for 3 years but folded over a year ago. I was told due to low footfall. I had a stall there selling my soaps etc (Findhorn Bay Soaps) was building a regular client base and was at all but three of the markets, alongside several other quality crafters. There was a regular stall with Findhorn Bakery, veg, jam, sometimes the cheese lady made it down from Caithness and sometimes the venison farm made it. There were not enough farmers or producers involved, IMO, but it wasn't for the want of the organisers trying to encourage them, several tried it once or twice but withdrew as they said the sales didn't justify paying for the stall and wages but IF it had become better established they would have taken part. TTF were a big part of it but many locals told me they were put off by them as they saw them as Findhorn Foundation busy bodies. As I see it you need to make the effort to get something like this established but too many of the locals couldn't be bothered to support it or found it too expensive.....there is so little appreciation of the fact that it costs small scale producers so much more to produce quality goods than it costs mega companies to produce cheap crap

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE AT BOGTON Tescos old site developed. Mechanics stay where they are and the remaining common good land redesigned for outdoor activities, youth facilities and recreation. ? Skateboard park a must, bmx trax,

cycle paths, dog walking facilities, horse jumps, fishing pond, allotments, landscaped gardens, Bog gardens. Nature Study areas. Children's play area, Picnic Tables - What other ideas do we have folks for a low maintenance, fun, green area which serves as an eye catching and inspiring foreground from the A96 for our town? Folk driving past would go "WOW - that looks interesting and different lets go off at the next roundabout into that town" Wild Flower meadow. have to agree with Sam on how no one actually comes to Bogton. It isn't really that nice as people make it out to be. But at the same time, it's not at all a dump. I played out there as a child and I have grown up at Bogton all of my life. But yeah. No one ever really uses it. At all. The occasional dog walker. That's it. I am against the development. It will have a terrible effect on the residents of Bogton road and the green space they enjoy. We need someone to list plants, trees, wild flowers etc to find out if any rare varieties are on site. Also beasties, are there hedgehogs, toads frogs flying things, crawling things etc - find out what inhabits the area. I find it ridiculous that there are claims that this proposed development could increase footfall to the high street - that is, to my mind, an outright untruth In Favour the present site at old Tesco is an absolute disgrace and eyesore which requires development. 2 the green area at Bogton is another piece of land that is under used both socially and commercially and with no funding cannot be developed into anything either for commerce or public use. 3 Something has to happen to drive forward the town as a place to shop/visit. What is the alternative and if there is one how will it be funded Responsehe "in need of development" bit is an opinion though. Regarding the green area being underused..that too is an opinion. The land doesn't have to be used commercially either, that is your own prejudice. The Wider picture One in five shops will close by 2018 Centre for retail research It don't take a visionary to know we live in a world with finite resources and to understand what the consequences of endless mindless consumption will be. What about Cluny Hill

Elgin is more of a ghost town than we are. Ok, you might not be able to get exactly what you want, but between the existing local shops, Tesco, Lidl, and the internet, I do not see any reason to open a retail park. Perhaps the reason that the High Street is doing so well at the moment is that there are just the right number of shops to meet demand. The new retail park opened in Elgin still only has 4 businesses in it, despite the fact that it is serving communities from Keith, Buckie, Fochabers, Elgin, Lossiemouth, Forres, and more, and of those 4 businesses, only 1 seems to be making any money: Home Bargains. The fact that there is any need to have this argument in the first place angers me: Moray Council have no rights over the land which they plan to sell anyway. And it could be argued that the land is, at present, wasteland, but that should surely provide a catalyst to do something about it for the good of the community, rather than for the good of the council's pocket. Go on the offensive Other issues Perhaps its time to go on the offensive - The Old Tesco building at the Mosset is dangerous and a health and safety hazard. Is anyone complaining to Moray Council about this? Folk are trying very hard to attract tourists here and this is what they see if they take a walk around the Mosset duckpond! - Broken glass and windows - Can we trust a business which has so little regard for the properties it is already responsible for?

OLD TESCOS The current tescos is suspected to be turned into houses, built by guess who? Make some posters of this mess! alongside the nice photos posted up already, before and after Redco. They have owned this building for years now and let it go to ruin!! Then they say they "care" about the town!! beggars belief!!!!! hey also have Giant Hogweed sprouting up! Is it not the case that tesco sold that property to Aberdeen development company who have taken on the running and future sale of it Yes - Redco If Redco Milne obtain permission to demolish the building who is going to fund the costs? As at its last Balance Sheet (2012) the company did not have any money and was in the red by a significant amount (Go to Companies House website where details can be obtained). Also, at the planning meeting debate was had regarding who would pay for the new stadium. To my mind this can only be for Redco Milne to suffer the cost. Moray Council should not even be considering meeting this expense and perhaps this is a point on which we can lobby all councillors? Its being demolished soon - (its only taken Redco 2 years to apply to MC for permission to do this) - but better late than never. Complaining seems to work Its the builder (Stewart Milne Group) that gets the money. After they build it,they get paid and take a walk to the bank. The aftermath (empty properties, empty High Street etc) is someone elses problem, not theirs.

Used needles and silver paper have been found next to the back wall its an eye sore. is this what we want if they build the new development will end up as empty and graffiti and dangerious objects lying about for kids and pets who may get harmed or injured.. I don't think so... Needles and silver paper is an environmental issue and complaints to both owners of building and council is appropriate course of action As I understand it, Redco wouldn't sell old Tescos for the new Health Centre. That would have brought lots of folk into the High Street/the chemists and would have been a lot more accessible ALTERNATIVE PLANS GrantMacDonalds alternative plan Here is another plan. Instead of retail and petrol station we have a supermarket with a smaller car park, the football ground stays where it is and Bogton is developed to have a community garden and bog, BMX/skate park, cycle track, community woodland and walk and Astroturf pitches with additional changing facilities. Apologies to any ideas I may have stolen. Would it work? Would it be used? Lets see what people think. why not save more space by putting the car parking on top or underneath the retail units and have more retail space where the car parks are on your drawing. no use of common ground, and new retail units? t would need to put the car park on top, due to the low water table around that area of Forres I think It would be aspirational for the soccer 7's to be playing next to the Can can stadium Am wondering if the Mechanics would keep an eye on the park and cut the grass in exchange for 4500 per annum or a similiar deal? Perhaps any building/ toilets could be nearer the stadium. The area to the east could seamlesley join up with future transition town expansion and allotments gardening/farming workshops? This could be the baseline for a planning for real consultation involving the whole community including the school and the community centre - joined up thinking. I believe this would really attract tourists INTO the Town and not threaten the High Street Shops. There was a huge demand for campervan parking at the Piping Hot games - Is there need for additional 'green' parking on this site too? Just brainstormin Dave Levon This is exactly what is needed!! all this and still have green space!! To me this is a no brainer!!

Hannah Maclean On the right track but super market - not so keen, smaller car park fine as long as it is artistically concealed, there is nothing more ugly than rows of coloured glinting metal, just doesen't suit the area. Oh aye and where is the money coming from I hear you all say - Well what about the community dividend of 166,750 per year for the next 25 years from the Berry Burn Wind Farm Community Benefit Fund - Green energy to healthy activities? Ah but then there is the drainage problem (that wasn't sorted out when the bypass was built). Is it too late to include this in the wider flood alleviation construction project? Is it just a case of installing some land drains or routing the water into a pond and bog garden? I bet a farmer would know how to do this. Please could you add some allotments to the plan? Perhaps on the far side? Also, if the path could be made into a jogging and fitness zone path (with fitness stations), that would be good too. It could perhaps even extend to around the football park Who is the flood alleviation main contractor - would they do a pro bono gesture to benefit the Forres Community as a gesture of appreciation for our support and inconvenience this has caused, I wonder? The big machinery to dig some holes is just up the road. Jennifer Sewell they said that the build where home bargains in elgin is, was a brilliant idea, it will bring in loads of business, create loads of jobs they said, and look at it now. there is only about two of the stores filled. if this thing in forres is built, and the stores are filled it will take the money away from high street, and nothing will be left but restaurants and maybe charity shops (which may become more expensive). if they are not filled it will look like the one in elgin. what we need is not more places for shops but something to entertain the kids! give them somewhere to go that they're parents don't have to spend 10 just on bus fairs. if they use this idea for something where the kids can go locally then I'm all for it, if it is going to be more shop then i say GET THE HELL AWAY FROM OUR TOWN!!! Grant you might like to talk to Brian Macdonald chair of FACT he has the Millenium project which was a very similar idea all children should have a play park in their own area beside their home it is their right.

Robin Hood Tax as a way of mitigating the cuts to public spending and so I would ask you all to sign and share, please. http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action? ea.client.id=142&ea.campaign.id=19781

THE MECHANICS STADIUM Mary Shearer My understanding is that Outline Planning consent has been granted with various conditions attached. There was discussion at the Planning Hearing on 12/6/13 on how best to get a contribution from the developer. My understanding is that MC considered two ways - 1. Negotiate a contribution from the developer, and 2. Put in a condition into the planning consent. MC chose option 2. Condition 10 of the planning consent is copied below:10 Unless otherwise agreed in writing with the Council (as Planning Authority) no works shall commence to remove the existing Forres Mechanics football ground, associated parking area or access roads until such time as an alternative facility has been completed to operational standard that meets with the prior written agreement of the Council (as Planning Authority) in consultation with Sportscotland. My understanding is that the effect of this is that Redco Milne must agree to provide a new football park/stadium before works can start on the main project. Of course, Redcoats Milne will not want to pay for this so they will try to negotiate some sort of deal so as to reduce their costs. That view was updated at the Planning Hearing on 12th June (1 hour 22 mins) stating that the football issue is undecided - the general consensus throughout is that it wouldn't be acceptable for developer not to pay but the decisions on that have to be decided separately http://connect.moray.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_v7.php? a=103859&t=0&m=wms&l=en_GB I have watched and listened to the planning officer when he commented on provision 10. My interpretation of what he said is that he would not commit to whom had to pay for the football ground only that RedcoMilne had to build it. No mention of who would pay for it. Also throughout the meetings the committee were talking about the connection with the town centre. Is this a physical lift and walkway system so less able people can climb up and down to the development or will they like most possible users of the shops use their cars. which is hardly green or justifiable. When the old Tesco was proposed as a health centre one of the arguements against was the ability of less able people to access the site. Nothing has changed has it? The hills have not gone away have they. The provision of the new football ground was discussed at the Planning Hearing on 11/6 and 12/6. As I understand it, the gist of discussion about the football ground was as to whether MC should have asked for a contribution from the developer (with any

contribution going towards the cost of providing the new football ground), or whether MC should put the onus of providing the football ground onto the developer. That onus took the form of the tenth condition (tenth of twenty nine conditions that were attached to the formal planning consent notice). The Chair (councillor Ross) appeared to have difficulty getting his head round why MC were not asking for a contribution from the developer and it was explained to him that there were different ways to approach the issue of "contribution". In this particular case the "contribution" element was catered for by the inclusion of Condition No. 10 which places the onus of providing the football ground on the developer. Your interpretation appears to differ from my interpretation of what was said and what is meant by the tenth condition. You have now put doubt in my mind and. I hope that I have not been duped by some play of words by one of the council officials who took part in the hearing. If I have been duped then perhaps some of the councillor s who voted for this have been likewise duped. My understanding is that the developer will now discuss the provision of the football ground with Forres Mechanics. You say (referring to my previous comment), that "that view was updated at the Planning Hearing.......". Your comment is not correct my view is based on what I heard at the Planning Hearing and by looking at the relevant condition attached to the planning permission. My view was not updated at the Planning Hearing. This is an important point because we need to be clear in what is being asked of the developer. I welcome your comments. Correct Max - that's what he said but he didn't say the council or common good would be paying either was my point, he had said that at the 19th March meeting. I fully agree the town should not pay a penny Planning Hearing on 12th June (1 hour 22 mins) stating that the football issue is undecided - the general consensus throughout is that it wouldn't be acceptable for developer not to pay but the decisions on that have to be decided separately http://connect.moray.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_v7.php? a=103859&t=0&m=wms&l=en_GB In an article in the Northern Scot . Mike Hendry i see they have cheekily put in 'delivering a new stadium for forres mechanics' as if they are banking on this to get the go ahead..fly f...ers.. hat's the main reason the young folks are for it! obviously it would be great for forres mechanics to have a new purpose build stadium, that and the 500 supposed jobs!!.. No disrespect meant to the youth, they are the future after all, its shocking to know there are people happy to divert them from the facts!! and unlike many of us

they don't appreciate the long term effects on the town. I personally believe the powers that be, are under estimating our youth. My understanding is that Outline Planning consent has been granted with various conditions attached. There was discussion at the Planning Hearing on 12/6/13 on how best to get a contribution from the developer. My understanding is that MC considered ... Iain Rollo Just like to ask a daft football question. Surely Forres Mechanics needs a stadium to play home games in, so how are Redco going to build a new one while having the original one still in use? or are they going to build it in the 10 week summer break! I don't think so. Heather Cameron Absolutely,I too believe the can cans have immense power here, thus the reason they want the youth on-side , no pun intended!.. They need them, i would love to see our local team with a new stadium, i doubt anyone would challenge that, i just think Red...See I agree with most that Heather Cameron has stated. However, why move Mosset Park? When the bypass was constructed, it was necessary to move and construct the new stadium to accomodate the A96(the main artery between Inverness and Aberdeen. But to move it to "accomodate" Redco is un-necessary. If you look here: http://forresmechanics.net/index.php/yourclub/latest-news I think it is clear that the club are staying well out of this. They have had to go to the Scottish Govt to obtain a 1st right to buy their ground and that is when Redco went...See More Grant Macdonald Iain they would continue playing in the old one until the new one was ready.

Documents Images Rejected Red Card Outline of Royal Burgh of Forres CG land - Legal Opinion Cockenzie and Port Seton CC versus East Lothian Distric Council.pdf http://www.tescopoly.org/ fighting to curb supermarket power http://www.planningsanity.co.uk/ Report Tescos as nuisance neighbor https://secure.moray.gov.uk/formserver/asb/AntiSocialBehaviour.for m Moray Town Centre Health Check 2012.pdf Item 6 - CATs and Common Good Assets.pdf

Moray council Webcast site http://www.moray.public-i.tv/core/ And past webcasts http://www.moray.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcasts

http://www.moray.gov.uk/minutes/ It can be good and it can be bad but we need some serious backup to define what We want /dont want if Redco somehow push through.. http://www.designcouncil.org.uk/Documents/Documents/Publications /CABE/supermarket-led-development.pdf http://insidemoray.co.uk/?p=299

TRAFFIC AND FLOODING ISSUES Gavin - I think you need to take a look at the plans. The entrance is from the bypass but it appears the access road to the car park and the service yard is along Bogton Road. This will include customer traffic and HGV deliveries. It is likely you will see a significant rise in traffic on Bogton Road. keep in mind that deliveries are likely to be during unsociable hours (befores hsops open and after shops close). i uploaded the approved Masterplan yesterday you will see the proposed road widening of Bogton Road on it. Hannah Maclean Where does health and safety come into all this as far as children are concerned, is'nt that more important? For long enough we have had it driven into us to have green belt areas and outdoor activities for children along with the calming ambience for adults, and just when everything is beautiful in the garden destruction arrives on the doorstep. Are there not other areas more appropriate this business could look at?

Interesting article in Press &Journal around 2010:New study puts four towns in spotlight By Donna MacAllister Published: 14/12/2010 ...See More

Moray Town Centre Health Check from P n J 2010 Notable points - In Buckie Tescos turnover more than all the local shops combined ! (how many jobs do you think both provide?). Forres turnover est at 10M in 2010. Even the half empty park in Elgin sucks huge amounts of money out of town. This consultation cost us 45,000 so why is MC not doing what is in the best economic interests of Moray towns

and supporting local businesses rather than National Chain stores? Stewart - there are 2 x reports on the MC Website (I don't know how to do a link to them) Moray Town Health Check 2010 and Moray Town Health Check 2012. Summaries of these reports can be found on the Internet. MC Community Asset Transfer Strategy.pdf Preview Download Upload Revision http://www.moraychamber.co.uk/index.php/about-us/medianews/partner-information/item/688-scotlands-high-street
Colliers Midsummer Retail Report asks Is the High Street Dead? Here is how Huntly town centre was affected. Taken from this document: http://huntlydevelopmenttrust.org/wp-content/uploads/Improving-Huntlys-Retail-SectorFinal-Report-for-Web.pdf