op. Look. That's what hooks's new book, Killing Rage: Ending Racism, is all about.

It unswervingly, unnervingly faces this subject, which is so often swept under the carpet and which is afloat in a big way. This hot writer shows racism as the minefield that it isconnecting it to all the other minefields. Here, she talks about racismabout hopelessness, right wingness, Oklahoma syndromes, political correctness, rapsparing no one in her insight.
wow sactry: Killing Rage: Ending Racism is your

St

eleventh book. At the core, everything you've written is provocative thinking about race, sex, and class. The more recent books are also about the ways popular culture reflects and at times exploits these issues. AS of your work cuts to the chase and reminds us that we cannot afford to be indifferent. Through the essays in Killing Rage, you take it a step further, calling for action. This book is much more hard-hitting, yet it is full of hope. What took you to another level? exu. HOOKS: Wherever I went, I kept hearing people say, "I will always be racist," or, "This person will always be racist." And I kept thinking, Why do so many people have bleak, passive responses to racism, where they just act as though it is some kind of illness that will never change, that will never go away. Why do they have this feeling that there's nothing you can do? I kept thinking how this passiveness really belies the history of resistance to racism in our culture. The idea that racism can't be dealt with, that it cannot be altered, that we cannot be transformed t a p culture, loses its reality base when one remembers that history. I continue to be one of those people who's just extraordinarily awed by the civil rights movement. When one looks at the history of African-Americans in our culture, it's amazing how much has been profoundly altered in people's lives, from the end of slavery to today. Killing Rage came out of a feeling of shock shock at people's lack of respect for history. But my approach in this book does not come from some naive Utopian idea that there isn't any racism today. It comes from a sense that we have this tradition of resistance and of cultural transformation. And it asks questions about what it means that people are wanting to deny that tradition and assume this posture of hopelessness and despair.
es: When you say "people," who do you mean?

en: I'm talking about everybody in this culture. ag As you sat there writing this book, did you feel angry that It was still necessary for you to write
Illuminating bell hooks.

it? Or did you feel that it was helping to write it helping others? Helping yourself?

au: At times while writing the book, I would just feel really overwhelmed. I would reach points where I thought to myself, I can see why people

want to deny the realities of racism, whether it takes denial of the extreme form of a holocaust, as in the case of the Nazi regime, or the way people have tried to deny what was really happening in South Africa, or denial of mundane forms of racism. Because, when you really think about it, it is so overwhelmingly painful. The lead essay, "Killing Rage," is all about what is in some ways a trivial incident that happened in my life. I tell the story of a friend who's traveling with me. We're in first class, and she's not been given a proper boarding pass. The plane makes a stop and a white man with a proper boarding pass gets on. He has been assigned to the same seat as my friend. First, she's called to the front of the plane. The plane's packed, and in front of the whole plane, they accuse her of lying and just create a spectacle. The man sits in her seat with her belongings, her purse, and everything. The pain came from the fact that it was a trivial incident, something that can happen to anybody, irrespective of racebut how it was dealt with was not trivial. If the roles had been reversed and the white man had been in my friend's place, he would not have been held up for such public ridicule. If this can happen to those of us who are successful, then what happens to people who have no resources, who have nowhere to turn? us: As you say, the incident was trivial and could happen to anybody. So someone might say you were being quote "hypersensitive" or quote "paranoid." But by the time the incident is finished and by the time your analysis of it all is over, It's clear this is racism in action. And what is so powerful about that opening chapter is what it evokes, moment by moment, glance by glance, interaction by interaction; you show the drama in how It was handled, and how you felt. arc These are the subtleties of racism that people often miss because, let's face it, many of us do have a lot of privilege in this culture compared to what many people experience in the world, in terms of daily terrorism, hunger, all of those things. So it becomes very difficult sometimes for people to articulate the mote hidden levels of racial assault. People don't know how to deal with the complexities of what still exists. Look how in this country we have lived for years with the simplistic idea that racism

Interview by Ingrid Sisdiy Portrait by Maio Saved

is about overt prejuclicea burning cross, lynchings, the not wanting to sit next to the black person, the not wanting there to be interracial relationships. The fact is, when a lot of those taboos were altered, that white-supremacist thinking was still intact. The danger in not articulating it and in not confronting it was made terrifyingly obvious by what happened recently in Oklahoma City. The experience of that tragedy was particularly powerful to me because I had been on a segment of the Charlie Rose show only a few weeks before it happened. It was a segment about racism, and I had used the phrase "white supremacy." I was part of a panel that included two black men. They started laughing when I used that phrase and threw up their hands, saying that nobody uses the term "white supremacy" anymore. I keep thinking how much I'd like to take the tape of that show, which was broadcast on national television, and create a video that intersects it with images of proof of the very hard-core white supremacy uncovered in Oklahoma and all around the nation right now. Part of the price we pay for not attending to embedded racism and whitesupremacist beliefs is that we allow the seeds of more vicious forms of fascism to be reawakened and to be nurtured and to grow. That's what's happening today in our society and in the world. is: What happened In Oklahoma is that It foregrounded the resentment and hatred that is afloat and is against all that gets In the way. rds hatred is antigovernment, anti-Intellectual, ardicolor, antlsenfitic, antihomosexual, anti-gun control, and how would you connect it all? en: All these forms of discrimination work together. The essay in the book that looks at antiSemitism talks about the fact that anti-Semitism and antiblack racism are fundamentally connected, that there can never be an end to one if the other hasn't ended. White supremacy is an anti-everything that is perceived as creating a space for inclusiveness or for the dispersion of resources, etcetera. That's why the government has become such a focusbecause the government has actually been a powerful agent of change. is After Oldahoma, people started saying, "Oh my Godwe've been sticking our heads in the sand." Killing Rage relates to all this, doesn't it? ex: The logic of the book is precisely in response to our times and the refusal on the part of our culture to grab a hold of racism. The book is also in response to denials of racism. In the book I tell a story about teaching in a private, liberal institution in America. The class I was teaching included a white South African student. I still remember the rage of the American students when he told his story of his family leaving South Africa because they wanted to leave apartheid behind, and then how, in coming here, they had found the same types of apartheid. My students, who were people you'd line up on the side of political correctness, couldn't face or accept what he was saying. They were invested in seeing this nation as a place where there is equal opportunity for every124

one, where if an individual works hard, he or she can in fact succeed in the midst of racism, etcetera. And of course that's the idea, and sometimes it happens. But how often? I frequently tell a story about being with a white male friend and a black male friend. My black male friend and I are both intellectuals; and in this particular situation we were saying something about being black in America. And our white friend said to us, "You're not black. You're intellectuals." Now, this is a friend of many years, somebody who's never shown any overt prejudice toward black people, and who my black friend and I love and who we think understands the issue of race in America. But suddenly, in one moment, he showed us that in his mind intellectuality and blackness are complete opposites. And that by being intellectuals, we transcend our race and ethnicity. is: How about the thought that he was intending

of those same people who oppose rap in the public sphere are themselves antiSemitic, misogynistic, and homophobic. It's a lie that the conservative forces that are attacking rap really care about those issues.' 9
Many
to show that he didn't see color? en: But isn't that part of the lie? is: What was his answer to your observation of what he had done? BH: We didn't really confront him. We told him, "Listen to what you just said," and left it to him to do the work. But we didn't shun him or stop seeing him. A lot of the work that I've tried to do in the past ten years around race and racism is to promote just that kind of thoughtfulness on the part of white people. I think there's been such a sense of helplessness on the part of white people when it comes to understanding racism. So many times white people come to me after talks and say, "I just don't know." My response is, "What do you do when you're having an argument with a friend? What do you do when you have a misunderstanding with a friend?" as: Do you think that sense of helplessness is where we are right now as a country In the

whole debate about affirmative action? I'm not taildng about the folks who are against affirmative action for obvious reasons, but some of those who were once champions of It. sic Absolutely. It's like we're all these little infants saying, "I have no clue as to how we might remedy this." But this means we have no understanding of the meaning of reparations. And a lot of it is simply fear-based. Even though it has become fashionable to pretend that racism has ended, a lot of people know in their hearts that it is still a reality. They live in apartheid neighborhoods. In our private lives, people stay primarily with people who are just like them. Many of us know how difficult it is to have a group of racially diverse friends who get together with one another socially. With affirmative action, it's so much easier for people to look at the disappointments of affirmative action rather than the gains. There are, of course, contradictions and disappointments and failures. But it's like the analogy I like to use of the eight white people who are pmracist and the two who are not; somehow the eight come to stand for all white people. The same is true of affirmative action. There have been so many good, critical interventions against racism, against sexism, and on behalf of justice, that affirmative action made in every way. But there's refusal on the part of many people to see that good. By focusing on the contradictions, the messiness, where things failed, one pushes forth a conservative stance. The fact is, people can be well-informed and still not want to give up power. See, the other side of the failure of affirmative action is the success, the way changes were being made in school curriculums, the way people were beginning to think and act differently. It's the success of those things that is frightening even people who claim to want those things, because those changes mean that power shiftsthat the whole world we live in is different It's so interesting that so many conservatives and liberals like Colin Powell. But Colin Powell wouldn't be where he is if them weren't affirmative action. The jolt is that it's the successes of affirmative action and not its failures that, in the end, are truly threatening to people. I mean, if all there was was the failure, then you could just let it exist, because it wouldn't really be doing anything. Is: In the book you use the word "radical" to describe individuals who are antiracist. Why not "humanitarian"? en: Because you can be humanitarian and still hold prejudiced views. For example, look at how many Christians say, "I hate homosexuals, but I feel that I have to be tolerant and accepting because that's what my humanitarian Christian values would have me do. I hate the sin, but not the sinner." To do away with that kind of thinking means that you have to assume a radical position. is: Isn't It incredible that one would still have to regard this view as "radical"? au: [laughs] Yes. And I think we have to be all the more radical today, because the tyranny of the rhetoric around political correctness has made it so

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' hard for people to take a stand. around nice and racism is very bleak, I was stUnned to see or listen to. How can people not tie these is: Let's take some of those who have no probby how much this writing differs from the writing of things to apartheid, to segregation, to forms of lem taking a stand. Let's take, for example, this progressive women, particularly women in feminist fascism. Jumping on rap lyrics that's been going on movements. One of the things this difference macie is: And censorship. again. Obviously there's an Implicit associasic Yes. Censorship, which is central to the debate me really think about was how many of us within tion between rap lyrics and color. feminism really struggled in concrete settings. We on rap. That's why I see this confusion about rap as sic If you look at the music, if you look at the weren't just theorizing about racism or sexism, we so dangerous. dress, if you look at a lot of the uses of vernacular es: Why so much confusion now? were saying, "How can we change this women's slang in the language, it's definitely coming out of studies program? How can we change this meeting? sr Where we are now is with a dying imperialism. underclass black culture. How can we change this battered women's shelter It's really interesting that so much antiracist strugis: I think It's coming from both black and so that it reflects the reality of the clientele?' And we gle in this culture happened prior to, and during, the white saw concrete results: a testimony to how far one can Vietnamese War. To some extent, that was a big en: Well, while the reality may be one of mixmoment where the primacy of U.S. imperialism go when there is the commitment to progressive ing, the condemning of it suggests that the change. I don't want to make it sound real problem does not lie with white youth lie I'm following the conventional stereoand white families, but with an engagetype that somehow we, as women, are ment with blackness Part of the attack on naturally more hopeful. Hopefulness has zap has to do with how it breaks down a lot been honed in difficult experience, difficult of cultural fears, and that's what makes it so theorizing, collaborations. threatening. is: And in personal experience. is: Breaks down or brings up? in not all Absolutely. I think that the breakrap music, but In some, there's the through that came out of the feminist bringing up of violence, of misogyny, of snuggle was to actually see the personal, to antIblackness, antl-Semitism, homosee that if we really wanted to understand the evil of racism or the evil of sexism, phobia, etcetera. then where we needed to see it was not just en: Yes, but many of those same people who oppose rap in the public sphere are on some grand institutional level. We also themselves anti-Semitic, misogynistic, and needed to look at it right in our own lives in terms of who came in our doors. Same homophobic. It's a lie that the conservative forces that are attacking rap really care thing when it comes to racism. We need to Martin Luther King, Jr., photographed by Charles MOW* while being about those issues. What they really care look at who we think about when we have arrested In a Montgomery, Alabama, courthouse for tottering, Sept ember 3, about is being the sole arbiters of what a job to give, or to get. We need to look at 1958. King was trying to enter a courtroom where ease Involvl ng his culture will be and what "values" will be. how we conduct ourselves in daily life. Mend and colleague Rev. Ralph Abernathy was being tried As I say in Killing Rage, popular music in How we relate to other people. this culture remains one of the few pleasures I've always tried to work from my concrete where there is cultural mixing, where there is experience and my experience of people around crossing of boundaries, where people are learning me. On the one hand, when I began this book, I from one another. No matter how unsophisticated was hearing about how the racism was never going or crude the narrative of rap is, part of what it's sayto end. On the other hand,! was thinking about my ing is that it's good to rebel and resist. That's own life. When I wrote the final chapter of this what really scares people on all sides, white and book, "Beloved Community," I was thinking about black. For example, the black church folks are how wonderful I felt my life to be and the lives of antirap, and yet many are so committed to misogother people I know, in terms of the incredible yny and sexism. I don't trust them saying, "This is racial diversity we've experienced. I don't know a what we're concerned about." I think they're conprogressive person of color in the United States cerned about rebellion. who doesn't have white friends that they feel are es: Clear* the audience has a hunger to hear the deeply and profoundly committed to antiracism. rebellion that It feelsand the conflicts that It And that's part of the love that they have for those sees--articulated In the music it listens to. I was called into question. The real tension in our friends. The truth of some of our lives is itself a tesmean, look how popular rap music is, not Just in culture today is the tension between how to restore timony and bears witness to the fact that many of America, but all over the world. That says a dying imperialism and, at the same time, how to us have found we can divest ourselves of both everything; It also says a lot that the Dole remain committed to those democratic values of internalized racism and white supremacy in all types of attacks on the music Industry are In racial equality, of gender equality, and of other kinds of ways. We have to offer this to other peosome quarters getting the responses that these forms of equality. ple. We can't act like we're somehow special, Dole types wanta shying away from this very is: What you're talking about is the great divide that we're the chosen or enlightened ones. That's powerful popular music. between those who want to go back to the why it disturbs me when those among us who are en: We have always seen that people are willing to old days and those who want to get rid of the bisupposedly enlightened then go out to the public relinquish profit in order to maintain and perpetuate ases of the old days, which brings up the conand say, "It's impossible to end racism." the structure of power and domination. Also unnection, say, between feminist thinking and There's that wonderful line in Charles 01derlying the issue of rap is the question about the antiraclst thinking. son's poetry where he says, "What does not representation of that which is deemed vulgar and an: Yes. Let me go to another reason why I began change is the will to change." If we cannot as a obscene. The rhetoric of safety, of family values, is writing this book. As I was thinking about how so culture once again exalt in the capacity of people all about saying, There are certain representations to change, then we really are laying the groundmuch of the writing by men, irrespective of class, irthat those who are quote "decent" should not have work for unprecedented forms of racism and fasrespective of whether they're progressive or not,

Suddenly, in one moment, he showed us that in his mind intellectuality and blackness are complete opposites."

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cisrr. to enter our lives. is: Why do you think the desire to get further Into these kinds of issues hes tuned so quiet In the past Skeen years? I'm not saying that there haven't been lots of discussions and outbursts about race. Sure there havefrom Rodney King to the whole OJ. thing. And of course there have been lots of books, and courses in universities, etcetera. But I'm talking about what's gone on in between and within all this& kind of pushing away of these Issues after the '60s, when there was a strong sense of urgency and unavoldability of them. 1114: For a time, we were made to feel that equal access would bring freedom. We were also made to feel that happiness and the quality of your life was determined not by whether domination ended 66

cy in this country and around the world. I had the misfortune to be on the Ricki Lake show with a white supremacist. They brought this person on as a surprise guest, which was a real surprise to me. (laughs] She was a young white female member of a Nazi party here in the States. She talked a lot about black women and white women being fundamentally different, Jewish women and the "real white women" being fundamentally different, and how they shouldn't mix, and all of these kinds of things. What was interesting is that the audience booed her. I responded by trying to make the point that her attitudes, though extreme, reflect general feelings in our culture. I told them, "You want to boo this woman, but you don't want to talk about where these attitudes are coming from?" Many of us learn early on that we should fear

withstand the potential threat to their well-being. is: Why did you leave the South? ow I left the South looking for a world that would embrace me as an intellectual. [feel like I confused the intellectual world with the academic world. And that was another kind of myth. I had been taught that the essence of being an intellectual was openmindedness, but when I got into an academy that didn't want critical thinking, that didn't promote dissent, I felt a tremendous conflict between my love of what I took to be intellectual life and the fact that! was having to open my eyes and see the function of educational institutions in our culture, which is basically a conservatizing function. is: Now, in addklon to doing the writing that you're doing, you're also teaching at City College, right?

1 had the misfortune to be on the Ricki Lake show with a white supremacist?'
people who are not of our group, period. And that's not just white people. That's all groups of people in our culture, largely because of the fact that people think, If you stray from your group, something bad may happen to you. is: How deep is that feeling in you? WIC I think that that was very deep in me when I was youngand on all levels. Fear of white peo- pie, fear of people who were not southerners. I was curious, but I was afraid. is: Do you remember how you broke it? OH: What broke it for me is what breaks it for anyoneactually getting to know people. One of the books that most changed my life was Rilke's Letter to a Young Poet. That book was given to me by a blond white woman student at Vanderbilt University, who was part of a Campus Crusade for Christ conference. Since then, I have been con- tinually fascinated by the fact that so much resis- lance to racism has come from people involved in religion, whether we're talking about Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Fannie Lou Hamer, Thomas Merton, Mother Theresa, all of whom were dif- ferent in tams of their religious affiliations. So it's also important to talk about the fact that, as people become less committed to religion, there is a loss of a kind of ethical grounding for your commitment to ending racism, the loss of an ethical argument for why you should go out and be with those who are not like you. Even in conservative religious tradi- tions, the whole idea is that you should go out. Remember, when I speak of growing up in the South, I was born in the '50s, so I'm also talking about the '60s and early '70s. We're not talking about a world where white and black could decide tube friends and just call each other up. We're talk- ing about a world where you could get shot for choosing to cross certain kinds of boundaries, People forget that many parts of the South re- rnained caught in extreme racial apartheid after the legislation had passed that said things had to be in- tegrated. So it's important to think about what qualities of faith gave individuals the courage to
BIC Yes.

or whether discrimination ended, but whether you had material goods. A lot of people felt that if they had material goods, then it wouldn't matter if they were still discriminated against by some. But a lot of people also found that it became more painful when they had those things. is: And what about white people? an: I think white people thought that they had done all that was needed to be done. They had vot- ed in the right direction, is: And now? 1114: It's very clear that we are a world in turmoil. We're seeing the rise of fascism globally. We're seeing a resurgence of narrow nationalism around the planet. Were looking at Rwanda, we're look- ing at Bosnia w: Or we're not looking. I thhdc there's so little understanding of what's happening, for exampie, hi Bosnia. I think whet people are thinidng is, I don't understand what these religious wars are about. And they are blocking it all out, an Oh. I agree with you that people are not seeing it specifically, but there's a connection between white supremacy, nationalism, imperialism, and forms of racial domination, is: But what people are seeing is a form of hoe- roc mid racial wars that they don't understand. BM: There I don't agree with you, Ingrid. I think a lot of people know that the grassroots issue linking what's happening in Rwanda, or what's happening in Bosnia, is that these wars have to do with no- tions of racial and ethnic purity. People may not on- derstand them in their complexity, but they know the issues of identity and racial purity are cen- tra As with Hitler's idea of a perfect race, people recognize that a discussion of race and national identity is at the heart of these particular kinds of struggles globally, es: But I'm not sure that translates am I don't think it would translate if there were not tragic incidents in the United States like Okla- homa, and how that sort of produced a wave of sto- ries in the media about the rise of white supreme- 126
INTERVIEW October

After working for years at private institutions, it is really exciting for me to teach at an institution with an incredibly diverse student body. However, now it's disturbing to be working at an institution that's discussing whether or not to build a gate around its campus. What is being kept out? What is being kept in? It makes me think of what it means to be bringing the values of the prison out into everyday life so that those values become acceptable to people. For instance, this is what zoning does. It herds certain groups of people in a neighborhood and keeps them out of other neighborhoods. Let's face it, we have gated communities in the United States in practically every city and suburb. There are some where you can't get in without a pass or an ID. People need to see the links between these kinds of classism, racism, surveillance, etcetera. We're certainly seeing it in actions with immigrants all around the US., with laws forcing them to produce evidence of their right to be in certain locations. All of these repressive strategies should be challenged. You know, at the moment there's such energy on the Right, and there's such a passivity among liberals and others. We're acting as though, "Well, it's not that bad." When it comes to freedom of speech or freedom of expression, these same people sit by and say, "I can't really take a stand about censorship because some pornography is disturbing to me, or some rap is really disturbing to me." And while we're busy saying we can't take a stand, the Right is taking an incredible standa strong stand, a frightening stand, a stand that is ultimately threatening to all of our freedom. is: Well, Killing Rage doesn't have the prob.. limn of someone not taking a stand. One of the beauties of mincing It Is how clear your positions are, and how clear It is that we have to keep on changing, keep on thinking, keep on talking about all these things. And that's where the hope of the book Ilesthat we can do this. me If you went around interviewing people and you

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Chi Vito demoserbetors photographed by Caries Moore while being "cespersed In tarmIngham, Alabama, In May 1963.

asked them, "Has racism changed? Are people more free to go out with whomever they want to, irregardless of race," the vast majority of people would say Yes. And, yes, we are more free. But ca, tamn things have not changed. And those are the things that really keep change from happening. To say that black people have greater freedoms does not contradict the fact that social apartheid and racial apartheid is still a reality in this country. For instance, we know right now that black people have greater freedom than they've had for such a long time in South Africa. But we also know that that has done nothing to transform overnight the bizarre, painful, and brutal history of racial and social apartheid in that country. Same with this cotmtry. How do you bring together people who have been completely divided and asmune that there will be a condition for trust? This has to take place through processes of reeducation and of reorganization. When I take an airplane

and I see that the pilot in the cockpit is a woman, that visual moment has more impact on my stereotypes about what women can or cannot do than ten feminist books might have. I think it was precisely in that power to visualize change that affirmative action was really creating some inroads. Killing Rage is also about visualizing changes. It is inclusive; it doesn't quote "blame white people." It really looks at all of our limitations as people in this culture when it comes to domination. It looks at black men's investment in continuing sexism. It looks at white women's investment in continuing racism. So it's not a book that's taking any one group and saying, "Gee, the problem lies with you. If only you would change." We all have to move away from a psychology of blame. Another thing that I have to say, Ingrid, is that I've never felt myself to be at all engaged in patriotism. This book was a real challenge to me, because I situated myself as having the right as a cit-

izen of this country to speak to the issue of the well-being of the nation. And that was awesome to me. Part of why I did that was because I think it's dangerous to leave that discourse of nationhood up to the Right, as though the Right is the only group in our culture that cares about the welfare of the nation, about the peace and joys of citizenship. As Howard Zinn says, "You can't be neutral on a moving train." I think it's especially crucial that individuals engaged in progressive politics not shy away from them. The image that's on the cover of Killing Rage is an American flag that contains a photo taken in Memphis, Tennessee, where Martin Luther King was so brutally assassinated. The little children in the picture stand for starsthose locations and sites of possibility. For me, claiming that imagery and claiming that space is part of the promise of freedom. It's both a sign of triumph, in that I can use that imagery, and it's a sign of the fact that the struggle continues.
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