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CSIP

2008
Baroque roof structures in Transylvania
arpante istorice cu caracter baroc din Transilvania
A i t t t f th t i l h h t d t th
2008
arpante istorice cu caracter baroc din Transilvania
Barokk fedlszerkezetek Erdlyben
An important part of the material shown here was presented at the
SAHC08 (Structural Analysis of Historic Structures, Bath
2008). It is though the first time being introduced within our
areas It reflects and synthesizes the 2008 work phase of the areas. It reflects and synthesizes the 2008 work phase of the
Transylvanian baroque roof structure research (Romanian the
proceedings of the conference, Hungarian Transsylvania
Nostra periodical) Nostra periodical).
Materialul acestei prelegeri a fost prezentat n mare parte la
conferina internaional SAHC08 (Structural Analysis of Historic
Structures Bath 2008); pe plan naional ns este prima sa Structures, Bath 2008); pe plan naional ns este prima sa
expunere. Sintetizeaz i reflect faza de lucru 2008 a cercetrii
arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc din Transilvania (vezi lb.
romn n publicaia simpozionului, lb. maghiar n revista p p g
Transsylvania Nostra).
Az elads anyagnak meghatroz rsze a SAHC08 (Structural
Analysis of Historic Structures Bath 2008) nemzetkzi Analysis of Historic Structures, Bath 2008) nemzetkzi
konferencia keretben kerlt bemutatsra, rginkban azonban
csak most kerl erre sor. Az anyag sszesti, bemutatja az
erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek kutatsnak 2008-as
k f i ( l k f i ki d b l
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
munkafzist (romnul a konferencia kiadvnyban, magyarul a
Transsylvania Nostra folyiratban).
CSIP
2008
Baroque roof structures in Transylvania
arpante istorice cu caracter baroc din Transilvania
It b id hi t i b ildi
2008
arpante istorice cu caracter baroc din Transilvania
Barokk fedlszerkezetek Erdlyben
It became an evidence among historic building
conservationists that historic load-bearing structures and,
as an integrated part of these, historic roofs in general,
and baroque roof structures especially incorporate
Unitarian Church,
Bdeni, Cluj County
and baroque roof structures especially incorporate
esthetical and historic values, transmit a message of their
time by their structural concept and conformation, historic
timber and technology through which they were created timber and technology through which they were created.
Valoarea estetico-istoric, mesajul transmis prin conceptul,
conformarea structural, materialul lemnos istoric pus n
oper; tehnologia de execuie a structurilor istorice n oper; tehnologia de execuie a structurilor istorice n
general, i a arpantelor istorice ca parte integrat a
acestora, respectiv a arpantelor cu caracter baroc n
special poate fi considerat deja o axiom n domeniul p p j
proteciei patrimoniului construit.
Mra mr aximv vlt az ptett rksg helyrelltsa tern
dolgozk krben hogy a trtneti tartszerkezetek azon dolgozk krben, hogy a trtneti tartszerkezetek, azon
bell a trtneti fedlszerkezetek, ltalnosan, s szkebben
a barokk fedlszerkezetek trtneti-eszttikai rtkkel brnak;
tartszerkezeti kialaktsuk, koncepcijuk, az ket forml
i f ki l k h lk l h l i
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
trtneti faanyag, a kialaktshoz alkalmazott technolgia
trtneti zenetet hordoznak.
Reformed Church, Cluj,
Koglniceanu street
1. Introduction Definition / Terminology / Networking
1 Introducere Definiie / Terminologie / Networking
CSIP
2008
1. Introducere Definiie / Terminologie / Networking
1. Bevezets Meghatrozs / Termonolgia / Networking
2008
The Anglo-Saxon (coastal) roof structures differ both in
structural conformation and elements from the continental
ones. Therefore the English terminology of historic
continental roof structures in general and the one continental roof structures, in general, and the one
related to the Baroque roof structures, in especial, is a
significant issue. Networking mainly with those familiar
with German terminology can be the solution (Szab, gy ( ,
Holzer, Kayser).
arpantele istorice anglo-saxone (de coast) difer att prin
conformarea lor structural, ct i prin elementele
componente de arpantele istorice continentale Astfel componente de arpantele istorice continentale. Astfel
terminologia englez a arpantelor istorice continentale, n
general, i a celor cu caracter baroc, n special, prezint o
problem important. Colaborarea internaional n p p
primul rnd cu nativii limbii de specialitate german
poate s prezinte soluia (Szab, Holzer, Kayser).
Az angol-szsz (tengerparti) fedlszerkezetek mind szerkezeti
kialaktsukban mind elemeikben alapveten klnbznek a kialaktsukban, mind elemeikben alapveten klnbznek a
szrazfldi trtneti fedlszerkezetektl. Ilyen rtelemben az
angol nyelv (barokk) fedlszerkezeti koherens terminolgia
krdse meghatroz jelentsg. A nemzetkzi
kd ki l l l i i l egyttmkds kiemelten a nmet nyelvterlet ismerivel
elrelpst jelenthet (Szab, Holzer, Kayser).
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
1.1. Definition of Baroque roof structures as structural sub-ensemble
1 1 Definirea arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc ca subansamblu structural
CSIP
2008 1.1. Definirea arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc ca subansamblu structural
1.1. Barokk fedlszerkezetek tartszerkezeti szempont meghatrozsa
2008
No Baroque straining
N B f! system No Baroque roof!
Fr dispozitivul de
Barokk fesztm
tensionare baroc, nu
exist arpant cu
caracter baroc!
Barokk fesztm
hinyban nem
beszlhetnk barokk
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
caracter baroc!
fedlszerkezetrl!
1.2. Definition of Baroque roof structures according to architectural
requirements, and as time and space functions
1 2 Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
CSIP
2008
1.2. Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
funcionalo-arhitecturale, respectiv n funcie de timp i spaiu
1.2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek meghatrozsa ptszeti / funkcionlis elvrsok
2008
szempontjbl, illetve tr s idfggvnyknt
Baroque space and volume requirements. Unlike medieval roofs, the
Baroque roof pattern was designed and drawn. Political, economical q p g
relations in 17-19
th
c. continental Europe. Travelling carpenters. Are there
connections between Medieval Anglo-Saxon and Baroque roofs?
Cerine de spaiu i volum n arhitectura baroc. Cerine de spaiu i volum n arhitectura baroc.
Contrar arpantelor medievale conceptul arpantei
baroce a fost proiectat / desenat. Relaii politico-
economice n Europa continental n secolele 17 economice n Europa continental n secolele 17-
19. Dulgheri cltori. Exist conexiuni ntre
arpantele medievale anglo-saxone i arpantele
ti t l b ? continentale baroce?
Tr s tmegkialakts ptszeti elvrsai a
barokkban. Ellenttben az empirikus kzpkori
f dl k t kk l b kk k ti ki l kt
Franz Ignaz Michael Neumann, 1755
Wrzburg Mainfrnkisches Museum
fedlszer-kezetekkel a barokk szerkezeti kialakts
tervezett / megrajzolt. Gazdasgi-politikai
sszefggsek a 17-1-. szzadi szrazfldi
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
Wrzburg, Mainfrnkisches Museum
Barock und Rokoko, Dumont
Eurpban. Utaz csok. Ltezik-e sszefggs
az angol-szsz kzpkori fedlszerkezet s a
barokk kontinentlis szerkezet kztt?
1.2. Definition of Baroque roof structures according to architectural
requirements, and as time and space functions
1 2 Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
CSIP
2008
1.2. Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
funcionalo-arhitecturale, respectiv n funcie de timp i spaiu
1.2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek meghatrozsa ptszeti / funkcionlis elvrsok
2008
ENG
szempontjbl, illetve tr s idfggvnyknt
The place of Baroque roof structures within the system of historic, continental western European roofs.
Locul arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc n sistemul arpantelor istorice continentale vest-europene.
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
Az erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek helye a kontinentlis, trtneti fedlszerkezetek rendszerben.
p p p
1.2. Definition of Baroque roof structures according to architectural
requirements, and as time and space functions
1 2 Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
CSIP
2008
1.2. Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
funcionalo-arhitecturale, respectiv n funcie de timp i spaiu
1.2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek meghatrozsa ptszeti / funkcionlis elvrsok
2008
RO
szempontjbl, illetve tr s idfggvnyknt
The place of Baroque roof structures within the system of historic, continental western European roofs.
Locul arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc n sistemul arpantelor istorice continentale vest-europene.
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
Az erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek helye a kontinentlis, trtneti fedlszerkezetek rendszerben.
p p p
1.2. Definition of Baroque roof structures according to architectural
requirements, and as time and space functions
1 2 Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
CSIP
2008
1.2. Definirea arpantelor cu caracter baroc din punctul de vedere al cerinelor
funcionalo-arhitecturale, respectiv n funcie de timp i spaiu
1.2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek meghatrozsa ptszeti / funkcionlis elvrsok
2008
HU
szempontjbl, illetve tr s idfggvnyknt
The place of Baroque roof structures within the system of historic, continental western European roofs.
Locul arpantelor istorice cu caracter baroc n sistemul arpantelor istorice continentale vest-europene.
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
Az erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek helye a kontinentlis, trtneti fedlszerkezetek rendszerben.
p p p
2. Innovations and characteristics of Baroque roofs
2 Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
CSIP
2008
2. Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek jtsai s jellegzetessgei
2008
A
Reformed Church, Kogalniceanu street, Cluj A.2.2(c).-a/c(3:a-c-a)-I-(1)
Reformed churchs roof
structure, Aiud, Romania , ,
survey and conservation
design, Utilitas , Cluj
(a) Changed architectural volumes
determined solutions based on lack
of tie-beams in secondary trusses;
(a) Volumul arhitectural
modificat a determinat soluii
de ndeprtare a corzilor din
(a) ptszeti tmegkialakts
elvrsa a mellkllsok
ktgerendinak eltvoltsa; a
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
of tie beams in secondary trusses;
criterion 4 within typology.
de ndeprtare a corzilor din
fermele secundare; criteriul 4
din tipologie.
ktgerendinak eltvoltsa; a
tipolgia 4-es pontja.
2. Innovations and characteristics of Baroque roofs
2 Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
CSIP
2008
2. Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek jtsai s jellegzetessgei
2008
B
(b) The invention of the Baroque straining
system; criterion 2 of the typology.
(b) Invenia dispozitivului baroc de tensionare; (b) Invenia dispozitivului baroc de tensionare;
criteriul 2 din tipologie.
(b) A barokk fesztm kialaktsa; a tipolgia
Axonometric view of the Bethlen Colleges roof
structure Aiud Romania survey and
2-es pontja.
Franciscan Church, Cluj
structure, Aiud, Romania survey and
conservation design, Utilitas Built Heritage
Conservation Research and Design Centre, Cluj,
Conservation within ACTT project 2000, Conservation within ACTT project 2000,
Transylvania Trust and BHCT
(c) Acoperiuri tip mansard
nsemnnd planul ntrerupt /
frnt al cpriorilor; criteriul 1
(c) Manzrdtet azaz a szarufk
trt skak; a tipolgia 1-es pontja.
(c) Mansard roofs mean roofs
(rafters) with broken, uneven line
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
frnt al cpriorilor; criteriul 1
din tipologie.
(plane); criterion 1 of the typology.
2. Innovations and characteristics of Baroque roofs
2 Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
CSIP
2008
2. Inovaiile i specificul arpantelor cu caracter baroc
2. Barokk fedlszerkezetek jtsai s jellegzetessgei
2008
C
(d) Elements with pentagonal cross section: the eaves
pentagonal purlin and the upper (or middle) pentagonal purlin.
(d) Elemente de rezemare eficiente pane / (d) Elemente de rezemare eficiente pane /
tlpi pentagonale inferioare i superioare.
(d) Hatkony altmasztst biztost als s
(f) The most innovative part is the
typical Baroque longitudinal
(d) Hatkony altmasztst biztost als s
fels tszg szelemen / talpgerenda.
typical Baroque longitudinal
bracing system, criterion 6 of the
typology.
(e) The middle suspension bar / king
strut (7) can be made up of a compound
section; criterion 3 of the typology
(f) Subansamblul cel mai inovativ /
(e) Bara central de agare (7) de
multe ori cu seciune compus;
it i l 3 di ti l i
section; criterion 3 of the typology.
(f) Subansamblul cel mai inovativ /
sistemul longitudinal de rigidizare
eficient; criteriul 6 din tipologie.
criteriul 3 din tipologie.
(e) Kzp fggesztrd (7), sok
esetben sszetett
(f) A legjszerbb alegysg a
hosszanti merevt-rendszer; a
tipolgia 6-os pontja.
Roman catholic churchs roof
t t Cl j R i
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
keresztmetszettel; a tipolgia 3-as
pontja.
p g p j
structure, Cluj, Romania
axonometric view.
3. Transylvanian Baroque roof typology work phase 2008
3. Tipologia transilvnean a arpantelor cu caracter baroc faz
d l 2008
CSIP
2008
de lucru 2008
3. Barokk fedlszerkezetek erdlyi tipolgija 2008-as munkafzis
2008
A
Research before the actual working phase
Cercetare nainte de prezenta faz de lucru
A jelen munkafzist megelz kutats A jelen munkafzist megelz kutats
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
CSIP
2008
3. Transylvanian Baroque roof typology work phase 2008
3. Tipologia transilvnean a arpantelor cu caracter baroc faz
2008
B
de lucru 2008
3. Barokk fedlszerkezetek erdlyi tipolgija 2008-as munkafzis
The typology is made up by using 6 criteria grouped
into 3 categories, as it follows:
1. according to the continuity / plane of common 1. according to the continuity / plane of common
rafters: (A) continuous common rafters, (B) mansard
roofs (broken common rafters)
2 according to the number / type of Baroque straining 2. according to the number / type of Baroque straining
systems; 2.* special structures: (1/2/3).
Tipologia se realizeaz dup 6 criterii grupate n trei
seturi de coduri, dup cum urmeaz:
1. funcie de continuitate / planul cpriorilor; tipuri de
baz (A) cpriori continui, (B) acoperi tip mansard; ( ) ( )
2. funcie de numrul i dispunerea dispozitivelor de
tensionare tipic baroce; 2.* pentru anomalii: (1/2/3).
A tipolgia 6 hrom csoportba sorolt kritrium szerint A tipolgia 6, hrom csoportba sorolt kritrium szerint
kszlt:
1. A szarufa folytonossga (skja): (A) folytonos /
eg enes s ar fa (B) trtsk s ar fa (man rdtet) egyenes szarufa, (B) trtsk szarufa (manzrdtet);
2. A (barokk) fesztmvek szma s tpusa az els
csoport msodik kdja; 2.* anomlik: (1/2/3).
CSIP
2008
3. Transylvanian Baroque roof typology work phase 2008
3. Tipologia transilvnean a arpantelor cu caracter baroc faz
de lucru 2008
2008
C
de lucru 2008
3. Barokk fedlszerkezetek erdlyi tipolgija 2008-as munkafzis
3. according to the suspension bar: which can be
missing (1); or it can be found in the main truss (2) and
in this case it can be simple (s) or compound (c). in this case it can be simple (s) or compound (c).
4. The second code identifies the roof structures
according to the horizontal force-transmission system
from the secondary truss to the main truss a group from the secondary truss to the main truss a group
of criteria: (a/b/c).
3. Funcie de bara de agare: (1) fr bar de agare,
( ) ( ) (2) cu bar de agare (central), realizate dintr-o
seciune simpl (s), sau seciune compus (c).
4. Urmtorul criteriu identific sistemul de transmitere a
eforturilor orizontale din fermele secundare spre fermele
principale prezentnd criteriu de sine-stttor: (a/b/c).
3 A fggesztrd fggvnyben amely hinyozhat (1) 3. A fggesztrd fggvnyben, amely hinyozhat (1)
vagy megtallhat a fllsban: (2) s ezen esetben
lehet: egyszelvny (s) vagy sszetett szelvny: (c).
4 A dik kd llkll ld l 4. A msodik kd a mellklls oldalnyoms-
felvtele/tvitele szempontjbl csoportostja a
fedlszerkezeteket nll kritrium: (a/b/c).
CSIP
2008
3. Transylvanian Baroque roof typology work phase 2008
3. Tipologia transilvnean a arpantelor cu caracter baroc faz
2008
D
Th l t t it i f th thi d t th
de lucru 2008
3. Barokk fedlszerkezetek erdlyi tipolgija 2008-as munkafzis
The last two criteria form the third group present the
characteristics of the longitudinal bracing system: 5.
according to the relation between the compound rafter
and the post of the longitudinal bracing system: I/II.
6. represents the pattern of the longitudinal bracing
system, as well as the number of the levels, on which system, as well as the number of the levels, on which
this system is placed: (), (/), (Y), (X), (XX).
Ultimul set de criterii se refer la sistemul longitudinal
de rigidizare:
5. funcie de raportul arbaletrierului i pe montantului
din sistemul longitudinal de rigidizare: (I/II); g g ( )
6. concepia sistemului longitudinal de rigidizare se
identific prin simbolul formei: (), (/), (Y), (X), (XX).
Az utols kt kd a harmadik csoportot alkotja s a Az utols kt kd a harmadik csoportot alkotja, s a
hosszanti merevtrendszer tulajdonsgait rgzti: 5. a
ferdedc s a hosszanti merevtrendszer rdjnak a
is on a s empontjbl I/II 6 a hoss anti mere ts viszonya szempontjbl: I/II. 6. a hosszanti merevts
formai kialaktst rgzti, a szintek szmt, melyeken
ez a rendszer elhelyezsre kerl: (), (/), (Y), (X), (XX).
4. Guidelines in (historic) Baroque roof structure research and conservation / retrofitting
specifications (draft 2008)
4. Structura propus a Ghidului de cercetare i proiectare a reabilitrii arpantelor
CSIP
2008
istorice cu caracter baroc (faza draft 2008)
4. Barokk fedlszerkezetek helyrelltsnak tervezsi s kutatsi tmutatja tervezett
szerkezet (draft 2008)
2008
A
Why is that needed?
De ce este nevoie de aceasta?
Mirt van erre szksg?
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
4. Guidelines in (historic) Baroque roof structure research and conservation / retrofitting
specifications (draft 2008)
4. Structura propus a Ghidului de cercetare i proiectare a reabilitrii arpantelor
CSIP
2008
istorice cu caracter baroc (faza draft 2008)
4. Barokk fedlszerkezetek helyrelltsnak tervezsi s kutatsi tmutatja tervezett
szerkezet (draft 2008)
2008
B-
ENG
4. Guidelines in (historic) Baroque roof structure research and conservation / retrofitting
specifications (draft 2008)
4. Structura propus a Ghidului de cercetare i proiectare a reabilitrii arpantelor
CSIP
2008
istorice cu caracter baroc (faza draft 2008)
4. Barokk fedlszerkezetek helyrelltsnak tervezsi s kutatsi tmutatja tervezett
szerkezet (draft 2008):
2008
B-RO
4. Guidelines in (historic) Baroque roof structure research and conservation / retrofitting
specifications (draft 2008)
4. Structura propus a Ghidului de cercetare i proiectare a reabilitrii arpantelor
CSIP
2008
istorice cu caracter baroc (faza draft 2008)
4. Barokk fedlszerkezetek helyrelltsnak tervezsi s kutatsi tmutatja tervezett
szerkezet (draft 2008)
2008
B-HU
5. Proposed structure of Transylvanian Baroque roof structure (on-line) database
(draft 2008)
5. Structura propus a bazei de date (on-line) pentru arpantele istorice cu caracter baroc
CSIP
2008
din Transilvania (draft 2008)
5. "Erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek" (on-line) adatbzisnak javasolt szerkezete
(draft 2008)
2008
A
Why is that needed? y
De ce este nevoie de ea?
Mirt van erre szksg? Mirt van erre szksg?
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
CSIP
2008
5. Proposed structure of Transylvanian Baroque roof structure (on-line) database
(draft 2008)
5. Structura propus a bazei de date (on-line) pentru arpantele istorice cu caracter baroc
2008
B
din Transilvania (draft 2008)
5. "Erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek" (on-line) adatbzisnak javasolt szerkezete
(draft 2008)
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
CSIP
2008
5. Proposed structure of Transylvanian Baroque roof structure (on-line) database
(draft 2008)
5. Structura propus a bazei de date (on-line) pentru arpantele istorice cu caracter baroc
2008
C
din Transilvania (draft 2008)
5. "Erdlyi barokk fedlszerkezetek" (on-line) adatbzisnak javasolt szerkezete
(draft 2008)
(5) Archive on Baroque roof structures literature lectures, scripts, expert
reports that can be consulted on-line (on-line library), links towards further
data bases (other geographical territories, other roof tipes); ( g g )
(6) On-line forum.
With the presented ideas, wed like to connect to Mr. Jiri Blahas
presentation from the afternoon, and actually both presenting our interest
t t d t k f i li t t t ith
(5) Arhiv de specialitate prelegeri, rapoarte, cri ce se pot consulta
on-line (bibliotec on-line) privind arpantele cu caracter baroc, link-uri la
to co-operate and to ask for specialists to co-operate with us.
baze de date similare (alte tipuri de arpante, alte zone geografice);
(6) Forum on-line.
Cu cele prezentate anterior a dori s m aliniez la cele ce urmeaz s
se prezinte de ctre dl Jiri Blaha i a dori s discut cu cei ce dein
A.2.2.(c) c(3) II.(1)
se prezinte de ctre dl. Jiri Blaha, i a dori s discut cu cei ce dein
informaii pentru a afla atitudinea lor fa de o posibil colaborare.
(5) Barokk fedlszerkezetekre vonatkoz szakarchvum eladsok,
jelentsek szakvlemnyek melyek on line olvashatak (on line jelentsek, szakvlemnyek, melyek on-line olvashatak (on-line
knyvtr), linkek hasonl adatbzisokhoz (ms rgik adatbzisai, ms
fedlszerkezetek adatbzisai); (6) On-line frum.
A bemutatottakkal Jiri Blaha dlutn sorra kerl eladshoz szeretnk
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya
csatlakozni, illetve szeretnm beszlgetsre hvni mindazokat, akik
fantzit ltnak egy ilyen jelleg egyttmkdsben.
Spacial thanks
Mulumiri
CSIP
2008
Mulumiri
Ksznettel
2008
Prof. dr. ing. SZAB Blint,
SC UTLITAS Srl., ,
Transylvania Trust
SC IROD M Srl.
stud ing CSKI Rme stud. ing. CSKI Rme
stud. ing. VAIDA Imola
stud ing SNDOR Borka stud. ing. SNDOR Borka
ing ACZL Csaba ing. ACZL Csaba
stud. ing. BARTHA Csaba
HLBSC CSIP TTK 2008 MAKAY Dorottya

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