9/11 Working-level Employee

\ SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

\\ OF STATE
\\ STATES INFORMATION AGENCY

\e of Inspector General

1 Memorandum of Conversation
1 Visas for the 9/11 Hijackers PIG. 7th Floor. SA-39 2/3/03
| Subject Office Date

Norfaert Kriee & Kris McMinn

Official Inspector

Mr. Krieg stated that the purpose of the interview was to respond to a congressional request that
OIG repbrt on visa issuance to the 9/1-1 terrorist hijackers. He added that OIG will protect the
identities of the adjudicators and that OIG's response will not single out specific individuals.

Ms.-Sharon L. Papp, General Counsel of the American Foreign Service Association,

accompanied! I at the latter's request.! Iread the questions for the visa
adjudicators given to him and answered them as follows.

1. For the record, please tell me your name, present rank and position.

; 2. Were you the officer (or consular associate) who issued nonimmigrant visas to (names of
\) on (dates) at (name of post)?

| examined the computerized visafilesof Nawal M S Al Hazrni who was issued an

NTV on 4/3/99 at Jeddah, and Kalid M A Al Mihdhar who was issued an NTV on 4/7/99 at
Jeddah.)

I do not remember these specific applicants. However, based on my review of the computerized
application information it appears that I issued the subject visas.

3. Is this a copy of their applications?

(Copies of the two applications (OF-156) were not available.)

/

If no application is available, then why is ii not available?

I do not know why the records do not exist. I assume that if the applications were destroyed, the
practice was consistent with State procedures in place at the time for all NTV applications.

4. Did you check the CLASS lookout system for his name, and what were the results?

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I do not remember if I checked CLASS for these two applicants; however, based on my review
of the computerized records, it appears I did check the CLASS system.

5. Did you interview this individual prior to issuing the visa?

As I stated, I do not specifically recall these applicants, and, absent the OF-156,1 have no way of
verifying whether or not I interviewed the subject applicants.

6. Ifnot,whyn6t?

At the time, the policy in Jeddah (as well as in Riyadh) was to "interview by exception."
Applicants were only interviewed if there was some indication of a problem. For example, if the
applicant was affiliated with the government or if by their dress they appeared to be an extremist.
All first time applicants for student visas were also interviewed. This left more time for officers
to deal with questionable applicants. This policy was instituted in about August 1998, a month
after I arrived.

7. What was the policy at post regarding personal appearance waivers?

If, by the applicant's dress, they appeared to a religious extremist the applicant would be
interviewed.

8. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

Initially, my supervisor provided guidance orally. Later, I developed standard operating

procedure on this policy, though I do not know what ever became of it

9. Were you personally given any instructions by your supervisors or superiors about asking
applicants to appear in person for an interview?

Yes, by the head of the consular section.

10. Did a travel agency submit the case?

No. Although we discussed using of travel agencies, they were not used while I was at post.

11. If so, what was the policy at post regarding travel agency procedures?

N/A

12. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

N/A

13. Would a personal interview of this applicant have helped you decide his eligibility for a visa,
and why?

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No. A personal interview would most likely not made a difference. There is a misperception in
the media that if the hijackers were interviewed, they would have been denied visas. In Saudi
Arabia, the vast majority of applicants were legitimate travelers. It was not uncommon for
young Saudi males to travel on vacation or to study in the U.S. for a month or so. This was even
considered the "cultural norm" or a "rite of passage". If the applicant's story was consistent with
these reasons for traveling, there was no reason to believe the applicant would be a problem.

14. If you interviewed this individual, what details can you recall?

I do not recall these specific cases.

15. Did he present any documents in support of his application?

I do not recall any documents.

16. If so, can you recall any details of the documents that were presented?

The officers in Jeddah did not routinely ask for any specific documentation from Saudi NTV
applicants. Other TCN applicants were required to provide documentation that might have
included a bank statement, proof of hotel reservations or plane tickets.

17. What specific elements obtained from the interview or the application convinced you that
this applicant was entitled to a visa?

I do not recall these specific cases.

18. Did you have sufficient time to conduct the interview or review the application to your
satisfaction? If not, how much time would you have preferred?

Again, I have no recollection of these specific applicants. In general, the interviews conducted
were brief by necessity to manage the workload. Applicants with problems had longer
interviews.

19. If there were sufficient consular officers at post to conduct personal interviews of every visa
applicant, would there have been sufficient interview windows, work space and support
staff?

At the time, interview facilities were not adequate. Officers operated in doublewide trailers with
a hard line installed. There were three tiny windows and each interview space was about 5 feet
wide. Officers had to shout at applicants because of the bulletproof glass and the ambient noise
from the waiting room. A new consular annex has since been added.

20. What other elements would have helped you make a better decision regarding the applicant's
eligibility for a visa and why?

Of course hindsight is 20/20 vision. Maybe I could have elicited a negative reaction during an
interview that might have caused me to deny a visa. Specific or general information from the

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intelligence community would have been helpful. We received no terrorist warnings, either from
the CLASS visa lookout system or from other colleagues at the post or the embassy.

21. Did your superiors ever discuss the post's NTV refusal rates in general with you?

Yes. Monthly reports and statistics were discussed routinely. There was a disparity in the
refusal rate of Third Country Nationals (TCNs) and Saudi applicants. More TCNs were denied
visas. This is because historical knowledge had shown problems with TCN applicants. I was
never ever told, however, to issue more visas to Saudis.

22. Did your superiors ever counsel you to raise or lower your own refusal rate?

No.

23. Did you or anyone in the consular section conduct NW return validation studies? If not, why
not?

Yes. Saudis and TCN applicants were put on a callback list. An FSN in the NIV unit performed
callbacks 60-90 days after the applicant was to return. Results showed that a number of TCNs
overstayed, though I cannot recall the exact percentage. TCNs were much more of an
immigration problem than the Saudis.

I do not recall a single case of a Saudi visa recipient trying to adjust status. TCNs routinely
attempted to adjust their status. I also cannot recall a single case of a Saudi overstaying his or
her visa. To the best my knowledge, there were no specific studies focusing on Saudi applicants.

There was no visa waiver program in Saudi Arabia at the time only because the Saudis did not
want to reciprocally waive visas U.S. citizens visiting their country.

24. How well did you speak and read Arabic?

I received a 2+ in speaking and a 2 in reading at FSI.

25. Did the Department train you in this language?

I took 2 years of Arabic in a university and received a three-month brush up course at FSI.

26. Do you consider that the training you received in the Department to carry out your visa
adjudication responsibilities was adequate?

Not entirely. I would have liked more language training. The ConGen course was heavy on
theory and light on the day-to-day operations of a consular section. Aside from the consular
course, I had no specific training on interview techniques that might have helped to detect
terrorists. We consular officer were reasonably attuned to the need for due diligence and the
realities of visa work. I recall flagging two very suspicious cases involving Sudanese TCNs.

There was no overlap with my predecessor and that would have been very useful.

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27. If not, what additional training would have enabled you to do a better job?

More language training and training in interview techniques would have been marginally helpful
to identify terrorists provided there was a shift in the "interview by exception" policy. However,
even if the policy changed, terrorists would probably adapt by developing better interviewing
techniques. We were really dependent on the CLASS lookout system to point out potential
terrorists.

28. What other comments would you like to make at this time regarding this visa case?

The officers did the best they could given the visa policy which made sense at that time. I am
concerned about the media's portrayal of the State Department's role in issuing visas to the
hijackers. I do not think that conducting more or longer interviews would necessarily have
stopped the hijackers from getting into the U.S.

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