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ENGAGEMENT
STRATEGIES
MAGAZINE
MAXIMIZING PERFORMANCE AND PROFITS THROUGH PEOPLE
Face to Face
With Curt
Coffman
ÉManagement Guru
and Co-Author of
First, Break All the Rules,
on the Art (and Science)
of Enterprise Engagement
Getting
Culture, Leadership, Engagement:
Close
to the Action
A revealing Q&A with Curt Coffman, author of First, Break All
the Rules – What the World’s Greatest Managers Do Differently,
on the key role of engagement in corporate culture
T
he concept of enterprise engagement – improving
corporate performance by seeking ways to engage
customers, channel partners and employees through a
comprehensive, holistic approach – may seem new to some,
but it actually has a long and well documented history. World-
renowned research firm Gallup, for instance, has been analyzing
the connection between employee engagement, customer
engagement and corporate performance since the late 1990s.
And nearly a decade ago, the Harvard Business Review reported
that “research has clearly and consistently proved the direct
link between employee engagement, customer satisfaction
and revenue growth.”
Rules was Follow This Path, which really focused on Creating More Relevant Interactions
®
%3- $O YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR MANAGING
%3- %MPOWERING THOSE ON THE FRONT LINES TO MAKE
THOSE TWO CULTURES AND KEEPING THEM IN ALIGNMENT
LEADERSHIP DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF CUSTOMERS
#OFFMAN Absolutely. Let me start with the big C. The
#OFFMAN Exactly. Just think of how many out-of-touch
big C is now demanding a whole new leader. We’re
decisions upper managers make, and the people close
just coming out of a period where, for a number of
to the customer can’t imagine how or why they were
decades, we’ve had “in-or-out leadership.” Let me
made. We see that every day, and it’s demoralizing for
explain that.
the customer and for the employee.
Draw a circle and put a dot in the middle. Let’s say
that dot is the CEO, or it’s the head of a department %3- 7HAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT MAKE UP THE
hBIG #v AND THE hLITTLE #v IN ORGANIZATIONS
The great leaders of tomorrow #OFFMAN Our research tells us that three things make
up the big C and little C. One is growth. Either you’re
are going to be those who involve growing or you’re dying. And when we talk about
growth in the high-productive cultures we study, it
the people closest to the action. tends to be people who are striving to build growth,
not buy it.
– a leader at that big C level. Then you put dots Second is the quality of relationships within that
representing people inside the circle around that CEO, culture. It’s the degree to which we’re all working
and you also put some dots outside the circle. Now, together. The silos of yesterday are gone. The
the greatest fear of the people within the circle would protectionism of individualism is gone. We have to
be getting kicked outside the circle. And the greatest have a broader purpose.
fear of the people outside the circle would be never
The third dimension is probably the most
getting in – or losing their jobs altogether.
controversial, but we find it in the most productive
So leaders have historically been managing organizations – and that is what I’d call, for lack of
from that in-or-out leadership position, and it has a better term, a servant focus. That’s where “It’s
caused a fear of being kicked out, so no one will not about us – it’s about the people we’re bringing
step up and say, “Maybe it’s not a good idea to products and services to and how we’re thinking
take the corporate jet to Washington to ask for about them, and how we can better serve them.”
$29 billion in aid.” The customer. The marketplace. And that can apply
to internal as well as external customers. If you think
Now we’re beginning to understand that great about it, that servant focus reengages the person
leadership is about collaboration – about having and who has it or does it. When we’re bringing something
knowing when you have enough information to make to somebody else, we are, in turn, receiving and
a good decision. And we know that diversity drives becoming more engaged.
great leadership. That’s the new big C.
%3- (OW IMPORTANT IS THE ROLE OF THE MIDDLE
%3- 3O THE NEW hBIG #v COLLECTS MORE INPUT FROM MANAGER IN ALL OF THIS 4HE MANAGERS IN ALL THOSE
ALL OF THE hLITTLE #Sv n OR ALL OF THE EMPLOYEES IN AN hLITTLE #Sv WILL HAVE TO SHARE THE VISION AND HAVE ALL
ORGANIZATION n MORE SO THAN IN THE PAST THE TOOLS AND SKILLS THEY NEED IN ORDER TO CREATE AN
ENGAGING CULTURE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL 4HAT SOUNDS LIKE A
#OFFMAN Yes. But the true test of a leader is when BIG JOB
they can still collect all that information without losing continued on page 44
the#OFFMAN
reportingWell,
of the data
first of and almost
all, let’s get nothing on We’veclearly
definitional. thedefining
manager theasdifference between
the first chair leadership and
of woodwinds,
manager development.
been treating managers as a rung on a ladder. And development their focus andis manager
that group, development
that woodwinds – all of the
group
we’ve also been treating them as leaders in waiting. things we’ve been
performing attalking about.levels and contributing to
exceptional
It’s my mission going forward to use the survey
But the role of the leader and the role of the manager, something broader.
dimension only to create a student of the manager So let’s get past the survey stuff and manipulating
we find, are very different.
and the employee. You get employees engaged the results
So weand mayget to really
actually engaging
have too many theleaders
cultureandin not
in their own learning, their own growth and
I think about it in terms of an orchestra director the your organization. It’s pretty simple,
enough straight managers. And what we need to isn’t it? And it
building of a great
– as having culture.
the focus of And
all thewith managers,
different pieces makes a lot is
realize of that
sense. That’sare
leaders one goodcreating
about thing about
a better
youcoming
have totogether.
bring the learning to where they’re
That’s a leader. But I think about at research – when you do good
tomorrow, while managers are about research it brings youa
creating
to give it relevancy. So you talk to managers about back to common sense. ESM
better today. Leaders need to prepare
not just doing a job performance evaluation once managers to be able to make the
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
TO BUILD A WORLD CLASS
Those are the things that will create
broad message more individual,
more specific and more focused.
SALES ORGANIZATION,
real transformation in an organization.
%3- ,ETS GO BACK FOR A MOMENT TO
YOU NEED THE
%3- /NE THING THAT COMPANIES
SAY ABOUT THE SUPPORTING DATA
SOME OF THE RESEARCH ON EMPLOYEE
ENGAGEMENT AND CUSTOMER
NEW DISCIPLINE OF LEADERSHIP
ON ENGAGEMENT IS THAT WE HAVE
RESEARCH THAT CORRELATES ENGAGED
ENGAGEMENT (OW CLOSELY ARE THOSE
TWO RELATED )S IT A DIFFERENT PROCESS
WORKFORCES ENGAGED CUSTOMERS AND TO ENGAGE A CUSTOMER THAN IT IS TO
HIGH
PERFORMING ORGANIZATIONS n BUT ENGAGE AN EMPLOYEE
AGAIN ITS A QUESTION OF WHICH CAME BOOST YOUR SALES FAST BY
lRST $OES THE ENGAGEMENT CREATE THE MAXIMIZING YOUR TEAM’S #OFFMAN Yes it is. And that’s where
HIGH PERFORMANCE OR DOES THE HIGH PERFORMANCE AND we’ve really missed the boat these
PERFORMANCE CREATE THE ENGAGEMENT TALENTS TO GET THEM last 20 years. Our research says the
SELLING MORE TODAY. concept that the customer is always
#OFFMAN Well, it’s both. We know right – that customers know exactly
that strong culture is definitely tied what they want and the form in which
TURN UNDERPERFORMERS
to high performance. And engaged they want it, for the price they want
INTO SUPER-ACHIEVERS
employees and engaged customers it – is just simply not true.
IN LESS THAN 30 DAYS.
are part of that culture. But working
for a company like Google has an #3&"5)&-*'&*/50%"5"
ATTRACT AND RETAIN
This really challenges conventional
engagement component as well. We wisdom, and it’s a pretty big
TOP SALES TALENT.
should be thinking of it as a circle 5)306()453"5&(:
“ah-ha!” You and I as human beings
that each one drives. And the point of have needs that we can’t meet
BUILD AND MANAGE
highly productive cultures is getting
and keeping the circle moving in the
*%&"5*0/"/%$3&"5*7*5:
A WORLD- CLASS, ourselves. We’re dependent upon
HIGH-PERFORMING somebody outside ourselves to meet
right direction, so engagement drives SALES TEAM. them. Think about how you feel when
performance which drives engagement /PUIJOHXJMMFWFSTVSQBTTB´CFMMZUPCFMMZµ
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you can’t meet your own needs. You
which drives performance. :PVHFUBMMPGUIFFNPUJPOBOEBMMUIFSFBDUJPO:PVDBOGFFMUSVTU
feel frustrated and vulnerable. And
NAMED 2008 SALES LEADERSHIP BOOK OF THE YEAR would a customer be a customer if
5ISPVHIJOTJHIUT
TUSBUFHJDDSFBUJWFBOEUFDIOPMPHZ
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%3- 7HAT KINDS OF INITIATIVES
AND WORLD’S BEST BUSINESS BOOK OF 2009.
DVTUPNFSTJOUPMBTUJOHSFMBUJPOTIJQT they could meet their own needs?
ARE YOU WORKING ON NOW WITH Probably not. If they could meet their
THE #OFFMAN /RGANIZATION
THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. 0VSDVTUPNJ[BUJPOQPXFSGVFMTUIFBCJMJUZUPDPOTJTUFOUMZNBUDI
own needs, why would they need
ZPVSDMJFOUTUPEZOBNJDJOEJWJEVBMDPOUFOU3*$(µTQSPDFTTQSPEVDFT
you?
#OFFMAN We’re trying to help people
DEVELOP THE MISSING DISCIPLINETUBCJMJUZ
NFBTVSBCMFQSP¾UBCJMJUZBOEVODFBTJOHHSPXUIGPSFWFSZDMJFOU
OF LEADERSHIP.
understand that engagement is a So they’re coming in frustrated and
XFQSPVEMZTFSWF8FµSFSFBEZGPSUPNPSSPXµTDIBMMFOHFTUPEBZ
dimension that’s part of something vulnerable, and they don’t necessarily
bigger called a highly productive like being in that position. But we’ve
Keith Rosen: 2009 Sales Education Leader of the Year.
culture, which is really the goal. Now, been treating them like they’re always
Visit the globally recognized authority on sales and sales leadership at
within that is a new customer strategy. right – like they know exactly what
www.ProfitBuilders.com for free sales training videos, coaching tools for
And in that is a new employee
managers and podcasts. Email info@profitbuilders.com or call 516-771-1444 they want. And what we’ve done is
engagement strategy. And
for more in that,
information on this book or to contact Keith Rosen regarding his
communications
we’ve ignored the vulnerability.
group ®
development strategy. And that means Now, think about that. When
continued on page 84
SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85
44 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009
Culture, Leadership, Engagement
continued from page 44
POWER OF NICE
knows me, walking away every day
THE knowing the value that I bring to
the organization. With employees
EMPLOYEE RECOGNITION PROGRAM there’s a new need for relationship
and collaboration and diversity
because that’s the only way they’re
going to be productive. We’re not
Based on going to be more productive by
the principles working harder, we’re going to do it
developed in the through technology, having the right
talents to fit the job and through the
best-selling book,
relationships by which we multiply
this powerful our effectiveness.
recognition
program can help %3- 7HICH COMES lRST IN YOUR
ESTIMATION n ENGAGING EMPLOYEES OR
IMPROVE... ENGAGING CUSTOMERS
t&NQMPZFF"UUJUVEF
#OFFMAN That is the age-old question
and Engagement
that has no right answer, except to
say that you have to do both. If you
t1FSTPOBM1SPEVDUJWJUZ
and Teamwork put me up against a wall, I would say
let’s start with engaged employees
t$VTUPNFS4FSWJDF because I’ll be darned if miserable
BOE4BUJTGBDUJPO employees don’t produce miserable
customers.
t4BMFT
1SPmUTBOE3FGFSSBMT
%3- 'ALLUP AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN
TALKING ABOUT ENGAGEMENT FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS NOW 7HY HAS IT
TAKEN SO LONG FOR 53 COMPANIES TO
Learn how Linda Kaplan Thaler, CEO and Robin Koval, President built The Kaplan Thaler UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT THE NEED FOR
Group into one of the country’s fastest growing advertising agencies by practicing The ENGAGEMENT 7HAT ARE SOME OF THE
Power of Nice. From start-up ten years ago to over a billion dollars in billings today OBSTACLES TO THAT UNDERSTANDING
(including the creation of the famous “Work Hard. Fly Right” campaign for Continental
Airlines and the Aflac Duck), Kaplan Thaler and Koval’s philosophy prove you absolutely #OFFMAN Well, a lot of companies
can conquer the business world with kindness. [like Gallup] – their product is a
survey. They’re out to sell a survey.
For information about how you can use And the problem is you don’t fatten
The Power of Nice Employee Recognition Program in your company,
visit: www.thepowerofnice.com or call Ira Ozer at (914) 238-2220.
the cow by just weighing it every
day. There has been a lot of focus
on the survey, the data collection,
the reporting of the data and almost nothing on clearly defining the difference between leadership
manager development. development and manager development – all of the
things we’ve been talking about.
It’s my mission going forward to use the survey
dimension only to create a student of the manager So let’s get past the survey stuff and manipulating
and the employee. You get employees engaged the results and get to really engaging the culture in
in their own learning, their own growth and the your organization. It’s pretty simple, isn’t it? And it
building of a great culture. And with managers, makes a lot of sense. That’s one good thing about
you have to bring the learning to where they’re at research – when you do good research it brings you
to give it relevancy. So you talk to managers about back to common sense. ESM
not just doing a job performance evaluation once
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
Those are the things that will create
real transformation in an organization.
%3- /NE THING THAT COMPANIES
SAY ABOUT THE SUPPORTING DATA
ON ENGAGEMENT IS THAT WE HAVE
RESEARCH THAT CORRELATES ENGAGED
WORKFORCES ENGAGED CUSTOMERS AND
HIGH
PERFORMING ORGANIZATIONS n BUT
AGAIN ITS A QUESTION OF WHICH CAME
lRST $OES THE ENGAGEMENT CREATE THE
HIGH PERFORMANCE OR DOES THE HIGH
PERFORMANCE CREATE THE ENGAGEMENT