Previous in Forum: Pressure Balanced Expansion Joint Next in Forum: Air Humidification Plant Vikram kapse Participant Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4 Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/08/2008 1:39 AM Hello All, anybody is there who clear my cofusion in "-Mill Tolerance". what is the significance of "-12.5% Mill Tolerance" & "corrosion allowance" in the Piping stress Analysis, how it's involvement while calculating the code stress in caesar-II, if same is considered during calculating the pipe thickness. thanks in advance for your valueable comments. Kapse Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added. Join CR4, The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion! Comments rated to be Good Answers: These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers". #2 "Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis" by Abdel Halim Galala on 04/09/2008 7:51 AM (score 2) Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers: Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them! #7 "Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis" by Abdel Halim Galala on 04/09/2008 7:56 PM (score 1) tjohnston Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pennylvania Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/08/2008 5:35 PM In the tube and pipe industry, the weld seam is nondestructive tested for defects larger than 12.5% of the wall thickness. Essentially, the spec allows for a wall thickness reduction of 12.5% due to weld inclusions and incomplete The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion Login | Register #2 #6 In reply to #2 #3 Posts: 9 fusion. While it is obviously undesirable to have any weld defects, they are a fact of life that will eventually occur. Perhaps the allowance to reduce the wall thickness by 12.5% is related. good luck __________________ Todd Abdel Halim Galala Guru
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1749 Good Answers: 240 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 7:51 AM Pipe Mill Tolerance in accordance with ASTM, ASME B36.10M is considered to be 12.5% of the nominal pipe wall thickness, tn. That is to say: if you have a pipe supplied with a nominal thickness tn, and you need to measure the actual thickness, you can find that there is a deviation reaches about 12.5% tn. I mean, if your pipe with a nominal thickness tn = 10 mm, may be you find the actual thickness is 9 mm or 11 mm, that is mean that there is a tolerance by 1 mm evaluated by 10%tn, and this tolerance still within the recommended tolerance accepted by the code < 12.5%. This tolerance is very important for designers when started to proceed the piping design, they have to take into consideration the worst case, I mean when the pipe supplied with a tolerance by minus 12.5% tn, to select the proper pipe wall thickness to compensate for any expected reduction in thickness of the pipe. Note. This tolerance is applied for all pipes at mill production, even for seamless pipe type (produced without seam welds), i.e. it is a mill tolerance, not related to welding or size of weld bead cap. And this tolerance is given to mill for their insufficient accuracy to produce a pipe wall thickness exactly as the required. And for this reason, we call this pipe wall thickness as the nominal thickness, tn. For any further clarification, please don't be hesitated. __________________ It is better to be defeated on principles, than to win on lies! No more Good Answers. Go to first "Almost" Good Answer qaqcpipeman Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 769 Good Answers: 9 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 7:21 PM Any input on the corrosion allowance as a seperate reduction in tolerances. Even API 5L calls out the 12 1/2 % for line pipe, but working on pressure vessels or power piping we also factor in the corrosion allowance. Anonymous Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 11:09 AM 2 #4 In reply to #3 #5 Poster In addition to Mr Abdel's answer, while calculating stresses for sustained load you should consider least section modulus (tn -12.5% of tn- CR ) and while calculating thermal loads (forces and moments) take higher thickness (nominal thickness + 12.5% of tn) and resisting section modulus is the same as for sustained loads. Abdel Halim Galala Guru
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1749 Good Answers: 240 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 1:30 PM Dear Guest, Please note the following paragraph UG-16(d) of ASME code, Section VIII, Division 1, which explains where we don't take that tolerance in such a specific calculations for nozzles of pressure vessels fabricated from pipes/tubes in what we called "nozzle area of compensation", detailed at UG-37 REINFORCEMENT REQUIRED FOR OPENINGS IN SHELLS AND FORMED HEADS: Quote UG-16(d) Pipe Undertolerance. If pipe or tube is ordered by its nominal wall thickness, the manufacturing undertolerance on wall thickness shall be taken into account except for nozzle wall reinforcement area requirements in accordance with UG-37 and UG-40. The manufacturing undertolerances are given in the several pipe and tube specifications listed in the applicable Tables in Subsection C. After the minimum wall thickness is determined, it shall be increased by an amount sufficient to provide the manufacturing undertolerance allowed in the pipe or tube specification. Unquote Therefore, for pipe wall thickness calculation, we have to take the mill tolerance into consideration to find the nominal thickness, tn. But in nozzle area reinforcement stress analysis, we don't deduct the mill tolerance from the pipe wall nominal thickness (tn - 12.5%tn), only we take the corrosion allowance CA into consideration, (tn - CA). __________________ It is better to be defeated on principles, than to win on lies! PennPiper Guru Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bayonet Point, Florida Posts: 603 Good Answers: 51 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 2:39 PM The following statement was made by a previous poster: "This tolerance is very important for designers when started to proceed the piping design, they have to take into consideration the worst case, I mean when the pipe supplied with a tolerance by minus 12.5% tn, to select the proper pipe wall thickness to compensate for any expected reduction in thickness of the pipe." I think that statement is grossly off base. The piping Designer may do the design in Feburary, the stress analysis may be done in March, the total PDS (or PDMS) piping model is approved in June, the Isometrics downloaded in July, The Isometrics approved and issued to a pipe fabrication shop in August with a start of fabrication in September. Now just how do we guarintee that a specific piece of pipe with a specific wall thickness will be used for that specific Isometric? #7 In reply to #5 #8 In reply to #7 #9 In reply to #8 I would say that the stress analysis must be based on the wall schedule specified in the piping material spec and it must consider a margin of error for the mill tolerance. __________________ Do it once and do it right Abdel Halim Galala Guru
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1749 Good Answers: 240 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 7:56 PM Sorry, may be you don't understand quietly my statement: "The expected reduction in thickness of the pipe", it means that the pipe when procured as a new and you found that its actual thickness is less than the nominal pipe wall thickness, tn. For this expecting, we have to take the worst case for the mill tolerance -12.5%tn. And, as I mentioned at a previous post, the corrosion allowance (other than the pipe mill tolerance) must be taken into consideration. I mean you have to know the deterioration period of your piping system as a years, and you have to know the corrosion rate per year (depending on pipe material, temperature, and type of fluid and its concentration) from which you can evaluate the total corrosion allowance during the whole life, and this corrosion allowance must be added also to the pipe wall thickness like mill tolerance. Therefore, I don't understand what do you mean with your question nor the relation between the design and fabrication stages with our case. In the same time, I think my explanation is very clear and familiar to whom interesting and experienced in piping design, fabrication, and erection. __________________ It is better to be defeated on principles, than to win on lies! No more "Almost" Good Answers. qaqcpipeman Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 769 Good Answers: 9 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 8:03 PM Great clarification. Abdel Halim Galala Guru Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 04/09/2008 8:11 PM Thank you qaqcpipeman, __________________ It is better to be defeated on principles, than to win on lies! #12 In reply to #7 #13 In reply to #7 #14 In reply to #13
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1749 Good Answers: 240 Anonymous Poster Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 03/04/2010 2:07 AM Great Clarification Vani Associate Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 31 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 08/14/2011 7:45 AM Dear Sir, I understand the mill tolerence, Thanks for your clarification, Please specify the corrosion allowance, How we find out this . What is the corrosion allowance of API 5L GrB . service is caustic soda. Thanks and Regards Vani. Abdel Halim Galala Guru
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1749 Good Answers: 240 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 08/14/2011 9:32 AM The attached graph is Caustic Soda NAOH Service Graph, which is extracted from handbook "Corrosion Data Survey - Metals Section - 6th. Edition by NACE". The graph is a relation between the concentration of NAOH (% by weight) and its temperature which creates and indicates an areas A (carbon steel, no stress relief necessary), B (carbon steel, stress relieve welds), and C (application of nickel alloys to be considered) defines the type of metal recommended at each area. So, for proper selection of type of metal and its corrosion rate, you have to define the concentration and temperature of NAOH. #10 In reply to #5 ................................................. __________________ It is better to be defeated on principles, than to win on lies! Anonymous Poster Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 02/04/2009 2:51 AM Dear Understand piping first not a modelling #11 In reply to #10 Copy to Clipboard spk Participant Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1 Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis 12/31/2009 5:58 AM Mill tolerance reduce section modulas (calculated along with corrosion allowance) used in stress calculation. Mill tolerance increase wt. + thermal forces based on potentially thicker wall. Register to Reply 14 comments Back to top Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added. Join CR4, The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion! Comments rated to be Good Answers: These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers". #2 "Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis" by Abdel Halim Galala on 04/09/2008 7:51 AM (score 2) Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers: Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them! #7 "Re: Significance of "-Mill Tolerance" in the Piping Stress Analysis" by Abdel Halim Galala on 04/09/2008 7:56 PM (score 1) Users who posted comments: Abdel Halim Galala (5); Anonymous Poster (3); PennPiper (1); qaqcpipeman (2); spk (1); tjohnston (1); Vani (1) Previous in Forum: Pressure Balanced Expansion Joint Next in Forum: Air Humidification Plant You might be interested in: Piping Services, Piping Systems "Persistence prevails, like a stream that is temporarily blocked by boulders and then collects force enough to overflow onward." -- Vernon Howard All times are displayed in US/Eastern (EDT) (Register to change time zone) 2014 IHS. No part of this site may be copied, transmitted or stored, in any form or by any means, without prior written permission of IHS. The information contained on this site is by users for users and is provided for information purposes only and does not constitute advice. Any views or opinions expressed by users are personal to them and do not represent the views or opinions of IHS. You should check any information and use your own judgment or seek expert advice before doing or not doing anything on the basis of what you read here. IHS does not verify or warrant the accuracy or completeness of any information on this site and, to the extent permitted by law, IHS shall not be liable for any loss, damage or expense incurred by reliance on it or for any dealings you have with users or other third parties that take place using or facilitated by this site.