RENATO MIGLIACCIO

INTERVIEW WITH PROFESSOR GORDO

This is an interview with Professor Gordo
Roberto Gordo Correa. A fifth degree
black belt in BJJ, he was my first instructor
and ultimately, my inspiration. If it wasnt for
him, I would not have gotten involved in jiu-
jitsu.

Professor, when did you start jiu-jitsu?

I started jiu-jitsu in 1985.

Where did you start jiu-jitsu?

I started at Gracie Barra.

It was already Gracie Barra?

Yes. Carlos Gracie, Jr., or Carlinhos. Went to Barra da Tijuca and he started
Gracie Academy. So, Carlos Gracie, Jr. moved from Copacabana to Barra da
Tijuca, and then started Academia Gracie in the Barra da Tijuca, which
eventually later was called Gracia Barra. And because I was friends with Ralph
Gracie and Renzo Gracie in the elementary school, so one day they invited me to
go to the academy and train.

Oh, OK. So, were you their friends before you even started jiu-jitsu?

Yes, I was friends with them in the elementary school. Yes, all the people
Daniel Gracie, Ralph Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Professor Carlos Robson. We all went
to the same school, the CA. And because our friendship, we always hang out
together, we used to surf together. So, one day they invited me to go to the jiu-
jitsu academy and I ended up starting jiu-jitsu.

And who was the instructor there when you started?

Well, when I started, it was Carlos Machado. He was the teacher. So, he was the
one who used to teach the white belts and blue belts- the beginners class. So, he
was the instructor.

And how old were you back then?

Well, I was 15 years-old.

How about my instructor, Ryan Gracie? Was he training back then?

Yes. Oh, yeah. Hethe Gracies, theyre born doing this.

What belt was he?

His belt washe was a yellow belt and he was about 12 years-old, three years
younger than me.

What game did you develop first when you first started jiu-jitsu?

Well, it was hard to compare, but I was learning according to whatever they
were teaching me. Nowadays, people talk about games, but back then jiu-jitsu
wasnt so developed in that matter. So, right now, what we see, its a lot of games
and stuff, but back then, I was learning everything, top, bottom, everything they
were teaching me- the basics to defend myself. But I used to like a lot to play on
bottom, you know, like, open guard, trying to take a lot of triangles and armbars.
Also, because Ralph Gracie, he had a very good guard and he used to attack a lot
armbars and I like that. So, I tried to do the same as him. But anyways, it was a
complete game. I believe that at the beginning, what they were doing to me was
trying to teach me the whole thing, top and bottom, the complete basics of jiu-
jitsu.

How was jiu-jitsu back then? Used to have a lot of tournamentshow was it?

No, we didnt have many tournaments. We have to travel a lot to find a
tournament. We had to go to the suburbs of Rio. And if you dont know, the
suburbs of Rio is not like the suburbs in California or the United States. The
suburbs are, like, more poorer areas and its hard to get there. So, people in a
better living areas, they barely travel to the suburbs. So, was hard to find
tournaments back then. And jiu-jitsu was a sport for the elite. It used to be
expensive, and thats why not many people did it back then. And then at the
tournaments were just a few people. You cant even compare what it is
nowadays. For example, a tournamentwe didnt have Brazilian Nationals back
then, but for our tournament was valid as a Brazilian National. We used to not
have not even half of the people that nowadays are competing in the Brazilian
Nationals.

And how was it compared to judo? Was judo bigger back then?

Yes. Judo was bigger and more organized. They had federations, they had the
state tournaments, the Brazilian Nationals. Because also for the advent of the
Olympic Games.

And how is the comparison nowadays?

Well, judo is still very strong in Brazil. Theyre actually doing a great job and the
people are getting more involved internationally. And they are placing a lot in
the World Series, Grand Slams, and in the World Championship and the
Olympic Games. In judo, they have a lot of sponsors for the national team, they
have government help, and they are traveling a lot to Europe, Japan, you know,
to compete in exchange training. So, judo is growing a lot. Its very strong in
Brazil. But anyways, jiu-jitsu has been growing too. Its actually explode. So, I
think, myself, in Brazil more people start now in jiu-jitsu than they would be
starting judo.

Who was the guy who you used to like a lot to watch when you started jiu-
jitsu? You mentioned Ralph Gracie, but

No, it wasnt Ralph. I liked to watch him, but I cant say that he inspired me. He
was a good friend, but he was way, way better than me and he was doing jiu-
jitsu since he born. So, anyways, it was good to watch him. He used to get my
arm, get me in armbars very easily, but actually in that time, I used to like Rigan
Machado a lot because back then, he was the best in the academy. So, he was the
best in the academy and I like to watch again him.

What belt was Rigan back then?

Oh, Rigan was a black belt. Rigan was a black belt and Renzo was a purple belt
back then. Renzo Gracie was a purple belt back then. And I used to mirror him,
to watch Renzo a lot. I used to try to copy a little bit of his game. Because I also
used to see him as like an older brother and his game was very offensive, always
trying to attack, and going for submissions.

Who do you think is the best Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighter nowadays, or a game
that you like? I know its hard to point one best guy, but someone that you like
the game. Who?

Well in jiu-jitsu competition and also because of his body type, Roger Gracie. For
sure, Roger Gracie, you know, to compete in open weight. But I also like Marcelo
Garcia. Roger Gracie is the best for me, has an offensive game, always looking for
tapping the opponent out. Yes, Roger and Marcelo Garcia are two guys who
have a very offensive game that I like to watch.

Is there anything in the rules in jiu-jitsu that you dont like?

Man, one thing that I dont like in the rules actually is they are changing the rules
all the time. I dont think the rules have to be changed all the time. We have a
problem with the interpretation of the rules, but this can be fixed without
changing the rule. And what I dont like also is theyre allowing this 50/50
guard, because I think the goal of jiu-jitsu is make the other one tap, and these
people that are doing this 50/50 guard, they dont have the intention of tap you
out. The intention is just stalling for a couple minutes, stalling for a few minutes,
5, 6, 10 minutes and then at the end of the match they start doing and win by just
one advantage. So, I think we have to tweak here and there just to change that.
Because from there, where do you go? You know, its not a position that you go
to somewhere; its just a position to stay there. So, I dont like that much. Its just
hurting the goal, the first intention of jiu-jitsu, which is the submission. You
dont see people trying that guard to get a sweep and stay on top and finish the
guy. You dont see that. You just see the guy going and coming back and doing
again over and over again.

Do you think there are techniques for different size body types and
everything?

For sure. Not just because for the size, but also for people who are flexible and
people who are not flexible. But jiu-jitsu is very adaptable. You can adapt a lot of
things. Anyone can adaptthe big one, the smaller one, the flexible, the non-
flexible. Of course you have exceptions. You have bigger guys that do not have a
bigger guy game, but this is just an exception. But mainly, yes, you know, the big
guy has a specific game just for a big guy; the small guy the same and the flexible
guy and the guy thats not flexible.

Is there, like, a body type that you think takes more advantage in Brazilian jiu-
jitsu?

Well, I would say that the advantage is in the tall guy and the shorty guy.
Because most people are average height, when the guy is either too tall or too
short, they can make a difference and confuse people.

Tell me also a position that you recommend someone to start. When they start
jiu-jitsu, whats the position they would have to pay more attention?

Me, particularly, you know, I came from judo, and even though there is not
much guard in judo, I think the guard is one of the most important things in jiu-
jitsu.

So, whats the position you think people will need to learn first?

I think the first thing that the person needs to learn in jiu-jitsu is how to defend
themselves, how to survive. Guard is a defensive position, but is also offensive.
But at the beginning of your stage in jiu-jitsu, guard will be more defensive, for
sure. But mainly I would say you have to pay attention on your defense on the
surviving mode. You will try to have a completely jiu-jitsu game, top and
bottom, but at the beginning the surviving mode is most important thing to do.

What do you think is the main difference between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and any
other martial arts like wrestling or judo or sambo? Whats the main thing?

Well, I think jiu-jitsu, is a lifelong sport because if you do it right, you can train
jiu-jitsu and have fun and train at 100% with your partner and your friend and
you can do this every day. Some other sports, they might be able to do it too, like
wrestling, judo, but talking about jiu-jitsu, for sure it can happen. We dont see
that much happening in other sports, but you see people actually coming from
wrestling and judo to eventually do jiu-jitsu because its a sport with less injuries
that can you can train at 100% without getting hurt. For example, boxing and
muay Thai, you do a lot of pads and drills, but you cant spar every day. You
dont have much a reality every day. Couple times a week or once a week,
depends on the periodization, then you do the sparring. And then thats what
attracts me to jiu-jitsu. Its something that you can you can train every dayif
youre not hurt, obviously, but you can do it every day.

So, talk about beginners. Whats a position that you think a beginner should
start now talking about being offensive? When someone needs to be offensive,
he wants to tap the guy out, what is a position that you would recommend?

Well, I would recommend the beginner always look for taking someones back
and go for the finish for the choke from the back. So, I would recommend he
always seek to get the opponents back.

And what type of guard is a beginner supposed to start training with?

Well, I think its the closed guard and also the butterfly guard. Thats what I
think those guardsa beginner can have more tools to be offensive.

Now people are talking a lot about the gi and the no-gi, its always this
discussion. What do you think? People should start gi or no-gi? Even though
Im pretty sure I already know the answer.

Gi, for sure. Youre gonna have so much more tools with a gi on. With a gi, its
way harder. Without the gi, its kinda easier. Its easier to learn, but you dont
rise to a higher level like you would do with a gi on. With a gi on, your defenses
will be way better and also your level is gonna be way higher. If you want to do
grappling and just reach an average level, go ahead and do no-gi. But if you
want to reach the top level of grappling, you gotta do with the gi on.

Now, for beginners, do you think a beginner should learn full locks and leg
locks?

No. No, we got to avoid that because those are positions that really can hurt, and
at the beginning people cannot get hurtotherwise they will quit and thats bad
for the sport. Well, in my school, a blue belt, 3 to 4 stripes, thats when they start
practicing leg locks. Before that, the guy needs to knowdont get me wrong, he
needs to know what it is, but only the defense so he can defend themselves. But
in my school, only blue belt, 3 to 4
th
degree start practicing.

Now, when the guy start training jiu-jitsu, when do you think is the first
should be the first competitionwhen hes ready for the first competition?

Im completely against competition for white belts. Only in the blue belt. Well,
when I give someone a blue belt, I think he is now ready for competing. Thats
the difference.

Cool. I didnt know about that. Great. That make me think. So how many
times a week is a person supposed to be training? Of course it depends on the
persons goal, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Well, if the guy has time, hes young, and does not work, I think hes supposed
to train every day. When I say every day, is like five to six times per week. And if
the guy works and is not looking for competing, but he wants to learn jiu-jitsu in
a higher level, I think three times a week is enough.

And how long should class be?

My classes are an hour and a half to two hours. So, to train jiu-jitsu and achieve a
good level, you could train for two hoursnot at a professional or elite level, and
then of course you have to train more, but we are talking about just being able to
learn jiu-jitsu and be able to be a good black belt one day.

So, now, how long should it take one person to get a black belt in Brazilian
jiu-jitsu? Well, there are people getting three to four years. I know, you know,
some of them have previous experience in other sports, grappling sports, and
some are just a phenomenon. But what do you think for the average person?

Well, with these exceptions, I would say in between 7 to 12 years.

Whats the best guard for a tall guy, with long-legs? Is a spider guard?

No, no. I think its the closed guard. It can be very offensive and takes less risk.

Do you think flexibility is important in jiu-jitsu?

Yes, its very important. Well, you can be very good without having flexibility,
but truly flexibility is a very, very important role.

What type of takedowns would you recommend for a beginner to start?

Well, the o-goshi, or hip toss, is a good takedown that is gonna, give you some
foundation for the other hip throws. And the double leg. I believe the double leg
is very secure and easy to practice. So, those two.

Now, people say that you were the one who invented the half guard. Can you
explain that a little bit?

Well, in reality I did not invent the half guard. I actually developed an offensive
game from half guard because of an injury that I had in my knee that I had to
develop a different game when I was a purple belt. So, I stayed a good amount of
time without training and when I came back, I wasnt completely ready yet. So, I
had to do a guard sideways and so I started developing the underhooks. Before
then, the half guard was just a transitioning position. The guy is about to pass
your guard, so you give him a hard time and you get him in a half guard, and
from there you just replace the guard or he passed your guard. So, I started
developing a game in order to be offensive from that situation. Then I develop
sweeps especially from that position. Thats what I developed. Not the half
guard.

Now, how about this deep half guard? What do you think about this?

I actually like it. I cant say that I developed that. I dont do that, but I have a
student, Celsinho Venicius, that does that a lot and hes good at it. Yes, I like it,
but like I said about the 50/50 guard, you have to do a deep half guard with an
offensive goal. The goal is come on top and finish and win the fight. Then I will
like it. Not just waiting there and try to get two points. My goal for guard is
sweep and win the match. And if you want to put the guard and allow me to be
on top, I even prefer that.

All right, Professor Gordo, thank you so much. Sorry for bothering you here in
the tournament. I know you have to coach other guys, but it was very
important to me. Thank you.

You are very welcome!