Testing Spark Plugs of Mark-V Control System

from the POWER GENERATION department...
Testing spark plugs of mark5 control system

Posted by SHYAM on 21 December, 2013 - 1:00 pm
We have frame5 gas turbine machine with mark 5 control system. We are using windowsNT for HMI. now machine is at
shutdown condition for combustion chamber inspection so that we removed both the spark plugs. now the question is we want to
check both the spark plugs operation. for that what are the signals i have to force?
i checked in the rung display it is showing L2TVX- (ignition permissive) as Input and L2TVX1- (ignition transformer), L2TVX1A-
(ignition transformer Aux relay K1), & L2TVX1A_REF (description not mentioned) are Output, ie, 3 outputs. Can anybody
explain about this rung? Description? Outputs? and Logic signals required to force, to test the spark plug externally in a safe
manner?
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Posted by CSA on 22 December, 2013 - 6:43 am
SHYAM,
The Mark V I/O Report will tell you precisely which software logic signal name drives the spark plugs. The file, found in
F:\UNIT1, is named TC2KREPT.TXT. It is an ASCII text file and can be opened with MS-Notepad or MS-Wordpad, and you
can search the file for "L2TVX" to find all occurrences to find the corresponding relay output which is assigned to switch the
AC to the spark plug transformers/spark plugs.
A word of caution about TC2KREPT.TXT: It is not automatically generated fromany other file(s) on the GE Mark V HMI; it
is created at the time the original Mark V software for your site was created. After it is created, it must be MANUALLY
edited by anyone making changes to the Mark V I/O for the turbine it was created for. QUITE FREQUENTLY if changes
were made during commissioning or afterwards this file DOES NOT get edited to reflect the changes. So, while the file is good
for MOST things, it DOES NOT reflect the actual way every input to- and output fromthe Mark V is actually wired to the
Mark V at your site.
Having said the above, the spark plugs are intended to be wired to a specific discrete (relay) output of the Mark V panel, so for
this particular output (spark plug transformers and spark plugs) it should be fine. (Unless it was improperly assigned to a
different output during or after commissioning.)
The ONLY Mark V configuration file which defines exactly which inputs and outputs are assigned (hardware to software for
outputs; software to hardware for inputs) is IO.ASG (also found in F:\UNIT1. This is also an ASCII text file, and can be
opened with MS-Notepad or MS-Wordpad. The caution with this file is DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THIS
FILE AND MAKE SURE WHEN YOU EXIT THE FILE YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE FILE NAME (IO) OR
FILENAME EXTENSION (.ASG).
So when using any programto open and view the contents of IO.ASG, make sure that when you close the file and exit the
programthat you DO NOT save any changes if asked by the program. (A really good way to avoid making any changes to
IO.ASG--or any ASCII text file associated with the Mark V--is to make a copy of the file and give the copy a unique name
and then only open the copy when needing to refer to information in the file.)
I'mgoing to make an educated guess and say the signal you want to force to a logic "1" to energize the spark plug transformers,
and hence the spark plugs, is L2TVX1. I believe this is the signal name you will find in both the I/O Report and IO.ASG files. I
don't have access to any Mark V configuration files as I write this, but I believe the relay outputs the spark plug
transformers/spark plugs are intended to be wired to are <QD1>CO16 or <QD1>CO17 (the "CO" stands for 'Contact
Output). So, when you find the signal name (again, probably L2TVX1) in the I/O Report or IO.ASG you should find it is
assigned to either Q_QD1_CO16 or Q_QD1_CO17. (If the unit has DLN-I combustors, you may find a second
reference/output; this is for DLN primary combustion zone re-ignition during a normal fired shutdown. It is a second set of
contacts fromanother relay output (contact output) in the Mark V wired in parallel with the "primary" relay output used during
starting. I believe this is the L2TVX1A output, but, again, that's just a guess without being able to see the CSP at your site to be
certain.)
The spark plug bodies must be firmly grounded to non-painted metal. (They are bolted to the combustion cans using metal bolts
which serve as the ground during normal operation; usually just laying themon the galvanized metal grating outside the turbine
compartment will suffice.) Personnel working in the area where the spark plugs are laid in the open should be notified and stay
a couple of meters away fromthe spark plugs when they are going to be energized.
Many times the safety procedures for an outage require that the AC source for the spark plugs be isolated (by opening an
circuit breaker or lifting a wire somewhere in the low voltage circuit (120 VAC or 220 VAC, depending on
locale/configuration). I've been to several sites where the maintenance technicians forgot that the AC power to the plugs had
been isolated during preparations for the outage and were claiming the Mark V wasn't working correctly when they forced the
logic signal to energize the spark plugs because they weren't sparking.... The Mark V just switches an AC source which is
external to the Mark V to energize the spark plug transformers. The Mark V does NOT provide the AC sources for the spark
plug transformers; it simply serves to switch the AC source on and off (by closing or opening relay contacts). The AC source
must not be isolated during this test.
Hope this helps--wish I could be more specific about the exact logic signal which drives the relay output at your site, but it's
always best to refer to the documentation for your site (including configuration files).
Posted by pascal on 22 December, 2013 - 7:14 am
Shyam
J ust check on your wiring list (or interconnecting diagram) where is your ignition transformer connected it will give you the
name of the signal to force, but usually forcing L2TVX will do the job all other signals are some "spare" one (at the time there
were two ignition transformers such as with Frame3 GT).
I amjust a little worry about you last signal L2TVX1A_REF, is your card the VPRO card connecting the ignition transformer?
and in that case it would be useful to also force the signal L4_XTP (also sometime named L4NEG) but usually ignition
transformer are connected to TRLY card.
Posted by CSA on 22 December, 2013 - 2:31 pm
pascal,
Mark V's don't have TRLY cards; Mark VI's and Mark VIe's do.
The "standard" for discrete outputs for all digital Speedtronic turbine control panels (if adhered to by designers and field
people) is to use a separate logic signal name to "drive" an output and NOT to use contacts associated with that logic signal
anywhere in logic. That way, when an output is forced the force does only one thing: acts on the output. And does NOT
affect anything else in logic/sequencing/control.
Sometimes, but not always, the separate logic signal is driven, in a separate rung, by the "main" logic signal, but frequently--
especially in Mark V--the output logic signal coil is in configured to be in parallel with the logic that drives the "main" logic
signal (L2TVX in this case). So, just forcing L2TVX will likely NOT force L2TVX1.
And, if the original poster looks in the CSP no contacts associated with L2TVX1 (and possible L2TVX1A) should be found
anywhere else in the CSP--because they are only driving outputs.
I, too, was surprised to see the L2TVX1A_REF signal, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the signal in a Mark V that's
recently been "upgraded" to a Mark Ve or whatever they're calling it these days, or as some "artifact" of some unused logic
signal that somehow was mistakenly left in the CSP for that site. But, without being able to see the CSP and know more
about the "Mark V", it's impossible to say for sure.
In the Mark V, trip solenoid outputs driven by the core frequently had _REF signals associated with them, but the spark
plug transformers were not usually driven by ....
Posted by shyam on 25 December, 2013 - 2:21 am
Thanks for your valuable reply. for a couple of days i amnot in the site so i could not check the TC2KREPT.TXT and
IO.ASG files. but as per wiring drawings it is showing there is 2 relays named-L2TVX1 and L2TVX1A. the control signals
(relay drive) for L2TVX1 connected to the,<QD1>DTBD - 61&62 and the control signals (relay drive) for L2TVX1A
connected to the,PTBA- 65&66.
230V AC taken fromthe external source and going to the ignition transformer through these relays. ie, phase is going
through one relay and neutral is going through another relay. Still i amconfusing about the last signal "L2TVXIA_REF".
Expecting your feed back..
In my view i think i will have to force both L2TVX1 & L2TVXIA signals to make spark plug activation. can you give
feedback?
shyam,
Okay, so part of the mystery is solved. L2TVX1A is assigned to an output of core, which explains the
L2TVX1A_REF (the Mark V uses the _REF signal as a check to see if the output has, in fact, been energized--or de-
energized--when commanded).
I don't have access to a Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195, at this writing to know exactly which output is being
used fromthe core. My concern stems fromthe fact that AC is necessary for the spark plug transformers, and many
of the core outputs are hard-wired/configured to pass DC (for trip solenoids). So, I'ma little confused about how the
panel is configured.
I would suggest actually tracing wires in the panel to be certain one wire is actually physically connected to the core;
as was said before, it's extremely common to find documentation that was never updated during installation/commissioning
to reflect wiring changes made to the Mark V Panel.
If, in fact, the spark plug transformers are connected to the core the task of energizing themis going to be quite a bit
more complicated. Presuming one leg of the spark plug transformer supply IS connected to the core you will need to
ensure that the emergency trip push-button circuit connected to the core is complete (no P/Bs are latched in the trip
position; many LOTO procedures require at least one E-Stop P/B to be latched and "locked" in the tripped position.
Next, you will need to force the following signals to the following logic states:
L2TVX1 = " 1"
L2TVX1A = " 1"
L4_XTP = " 0"
If you don't force L2TVX1A_REF the output will work, BUT you will get a Diagnostic Alarmoutput feedback not
agreeing with reference or something to that effect. You could also for L2TVX1A_REF to a logic "1" to prevent that
Diagnostic Alarm, but it's an unnecessary step.
Without being able to look at a Signal Flow Diagram(in GEH-6195) I can't understand how an AC signal can be passed
through a DC circuit (I'massuming the core has a TCTG card, which most GE-design heavy duty gas turbine Mark
V control panels use). So, I'ma little leery of whether or not the documentation actually reflects the current
wiring/configuration of the Mark V--but stranger things have happened!
I would suggest, again, that someone take the time to physically trace the spark plug transformer wiring in the Mark V
panel, draw a schematic of the circuit, and use this in the future when wanting to performthis test again. It will likely save
a lot of effort--and frustration. This could be part of a procedure that outlined what needed to be forced to what logic
state--again, this could be very helpful in the future.
Please write back to let us know what you find and how the test worked (what you had to force; etc.).
Posted by shyam on 26 December, 2013 - 11:25 am
We successfully tested both the spark plugs simultaneously by forcing L2TVX1, L2TVX1A and L4_XTP. Thanks for
your support and feed back.
shyam,
You are most welcome!
Thanks for the feedback, also. 'Feedback is the most important contribution!'(c) here at control.com. It is what
distinguishes control.comfroma lot of other Web-based forums. When posters who receive assistance from
responders on control.comprovide feedback it lets other people who read these posts--now, and in the future--if the
information provided was helpful, or not (as the case may be).
I want to be very clear about this particular post, though. It is NOT typical for either leg of the spark plug power
source to be connected through the core of a GE Speedtronic Mark V turbine control panel, so, it's not generally
required to force L4_XTP in order to be able to energize the spark plug transformers/spark plugs.
It's unclear (to me, anyway) why any leg of the spark plug power source would be assigned to the core, unless it
was something demanded during commissioning or by some local technical code or regulation. Even so, it's not clear
how an AC source can be routed through the core trip solenoid outputs. (I do NOT have access to Mark V Signal
Flow Diagrams at this writing, so I'mnot clear what function PTBA-65 & -66 are connected to in the core.)
Again, congratulations on the successful--and safe--test. And, thanks for the feedback!
Posted by G.Rajesh on 30 December, 2013 - 1:13 am
It's new subject for us too, spark plug is connected in core.
But questioner Mr.Shyamcan make sure without L4_XTP=0 spark plug is not energized.
Take care
G.Rajesh
Posted by shyam on 8 January, 2014 - 1:20 pm
sorry i was not in the site at the time of testing. i just given instruction to my colleague for testing the spark plug, so i
couldn't check your point. this both relays are mounted separately.
anyway i will try to confirmyour point and come back to you.
Posted by shyam on 22 June, 2014 - 10:10 am
Sorry for the late reply. We are using 2 relays to give the supply to ignition transformer, one relay drive signal is
connected to <QDI>DTBD & another relay connected to PTBA. So without forcing this L4_XTP.
The relay which is connected to
will not energize and cannot performspark plug test..ie, one relay (NO)contact for phase and another relay (NO)
contact for neutral of 230v ac as the input of ignition transformer. Once again sorry for the late reply.
Posted by CSA on 23 June, 2014 - 1:04 pm
shyam, or SHYAM,
The configuration you are describing is not typical, so without being able to see the schematic drawings for the
circuit it's very difficult to say for sure what might be the problem.
And I'mnot clear if there is second, physical relay that's connected to , or if it's a second relay output of
<QD1>(or even <QD2>if there is a <QD2>).
I'mgoing to venture a guess and say that the second relay (the one connected to ) is actually being used to
interrupt the AC neutral to the ignition transformers--but that's just a guess; it may, in fact, be in series with the
relay output of <QD1>. Again, without being able to see the electrical schematic drawing of the circuit it's very
difficult to say with any degree of certainty. You could try measuring the AC voltage across the contact(s) of the
second relay (the one that's connected to ). You could also use the multimeter to see if one side of the second
relay's contact(s) is connected to neutral (earth; ground).
My other scientific wild-arsed guess is that there is a second relay output of the Mark V that is being used to
apply power to the coil of the relay to energize the second relay's coil to close the contacts. This should be very
evident in the CSP because it would have to be a logic "1" at the same time as the L2TVX1 relay (that's the
typical signal name; look at the I/O Report to find the actual name used at your site). So, it should be possible to
find that second relay's name, and then use the I/O Report and/or IO.ASG To find which relay output the coil of
the second relay the contacts of which are connected to is located. But, it's a pretty safe bet that a second
relay output fromthe Mark V has to be used to drive the relay that's connected to --and this is presuming that
there is a second physical relay (an "interposing" relay) connected to .
Have you traced the wires in the ignitor circuit fromto see where they go? That will tell you a lot about how
the relay needs to be energized.
Please write back to let us know how you fare.
Posted by Batman on 29 July, 2014 - 10:44 am
CSA,
I have a question on ignition excitation logic, but before asking that I will post Mark vie version of the control
sequence. L2TVX is "ignition permissive" & l2tvx1 is "ignition permissive relay", which is energized when the
output of the block L2TVX is "1". Apart fromsupplying the AC voltage by external means to ignition exciters
95SG-2A,3A which in turn make the spark plugs 95SP-2 & 95SP-3 "on", l2tvx1 is also used in a block, which is
used for L30SG1_ALM i.e. "EXCITER CHANNEL FAILED WITH IGNITOR ON alarm" with a time delay
of K30SG1_ALM (1sec). I guess L30SG1_ALM is like L2TVX1A_REF in Mark- V, which is a check to see if
the output is energized or de-energized when commanded.
l 30sg1 l 2t vx1 L30SG1_ALM
| / | - - - - - - - - | | - - - - - - - - - - - ( )
Here comes the confusion. In the device summary, the description of 30SG-1 is
"DIAGNOSTIC IGNITION EXCITER SWITCH
NORM=NO; CLOSE ON EXCITER FAILURE;".
If we go by the logic block l30sg1 is an "NC" (NOT Gate used), but the device summary says it's an "NO"
contact, and it closes on exciter failure. It seems to be contradictory & creating confusion.
Note: The info posted above is collected fromthe O&M manual & device summary, not fromthe ToolboxST.
Posted by CSA on 29 July, 2014 - 3:19 pm
Batman,
This is an all-too-common alarmand problem, and may involve ... inversion masking.
The high-energy ignitor power source, 95SG (there's usually only one of these ignitor power supplies, which
drives two (2) ignitors ("spark plugs")) has a discrete (contact) output which changes state under some
condition. I don't recall if it changes state when both ignitor outputs ARE working, or when one of the ignitor
outputs is NOT working. Let's say it changes state when BOTH ignitor outputs ARE working, first.
l2tvx1 is the discrete output of the Mark VIe that, when a logic "1", will apply single-phase AC to 95SG,
energizing 95SG. So, when l2tvx1 is a logic "1" the input to 95SG should be energized, and the outputs of 95SG
should also be energized.
(There may be two 95SGs, and the discrete outputs may be connected in series or in parallel.... Things do
change over the years.)
For now, lets' say there's only on 95SG with two outputs, and in this case, when the ignitor power source is
energized and BOTH ignitor outputs are working if the NO contact changes state and closes that would be an
indication that both ignitor outputs are working (it doesn't say both ignitors are firing--just that the outputs to both
ignitors are energized). In this case, if the input was NOT inverted and the contact closed then l30sg1 would go
to a logic "1" and the normally open contacts of l30sg1 in the rung you provided would OPEN and there would
be NO alarm--which would be correct, right? Both ignitor power source outputs are energized when the input to
95SG is energized, and when the application code is telling the ignitors to be energized that's what is desired.
Now, let's continue to say that the discrete output of 95SG changes state when BOTH outputs are energized--
however, one of themdoes not get energized when the input to 95SG is energized. In this case, the discrete
output would NOT change state (the NO contacts would not close) and if the l30sg1 input were NOT inverted
then l30sg1 would NOT go to a logic "1" which means the normally closed contacts of l30sg1 in the rung you
provided would remain closed and one second after the input to 95SG was energized the alarmwould be
annunciated--which would be a true and correct condition.
All good so far--if we presume the NO discrete output of 95SG changes state when BOTH ignitor outputs are
energized AND when the discrete input driving l30sg1 is NOT inverted.
Let's take the other condition: The discrete output of 95SG changes state when ONE of the outputs is NOT
energized. In this case, if both outputs of 95SG are energized when the input of 95SG is energized the discrete
output will NOT change state, and if the discrete input driving l30sg1 is NOT inverted, the normally closed
contacts of l30sg1 will remain closed and after the time delay the alarmwill be annunciated. Which would be
incorrect.
But, if one of the 95SG outputs did not energize when the input of 95SG was energized then the discrete output
WOULD change state fromNO to closed, and if the discrete input driving l30sg1 was NOT inverted then
l30sg1 would go to a logic "1" and the NC contacts of l30sg1 would open and there would be NO alarm. Which
would be incorrect.
If the inversion mask of the input driving l30sg1 were changed to INVERTED, then the alarmlogic would work
correctly if the NO discrete output of 95SG changed state when one 95SG output was NOT energized, and
when both 95SG outputs were energized.
So, you need to know a couple of things at this point. One, what is the state of the discrete output when 95SG is
NOT energized. Two, what is the state of the discrete output when the input of 95SG IS energized AND both
outputs ARE energized? I don't know how to simulate the condition when only one output of a working 95SG is
not energized, so I can't help with this.
You may have to have both ignitors out and "on the deck" to see if they are both sparking when the input of
95SG is energized. Of course, if one of the ignitors wasn't working even when it was energized that would be a
bad test, so it would be necessary to switch the ignitors and performthe test a second time. (The outputs of
95SG are too high to measure with a normal multi-meter.)
You also need to know if the Mark VIe discrete input driving l30sg1 is inverted or not inverted.
I generally read the information in the Device Summary and the Manual, but I trust only what I personally
observe. And, then I go fromthere. Ideally, if it were my call as the responsible design engineer for the system,
I'd want a NO discrete output from95SG that changed state when the input of 95SG was energized and BOTH
outputs were working--as in our first example above. I would then connect that to a NON-INVERTED input of
the Speedtronic to drive l30sg1, which would be logic "0" when the input of 95SG was not energized, and would
change to a logic "1" when it was energized and BOTH outputs were working. If 95SG was energized and one
output did not work, then the discrete output of 95SG would NOT change state, and l30sg1 would NOT change
state and the NC contacts would remain closed and the alarmwould be annunciated.
This would be the most correct indication of the state of 95SG's outputs, and would provide an alarmif a wire
were to come loose in the circuit at some point. Using a NO contact to close when there is a fault will prevent
an alarmfrombeing annunciated when there is a fault.
I hope this is helpful; it's not very easy to describe in writing. And, when it's not properly commissioned it can be
a nuisance alarmfor years.
Again, my recollection is that the discrete output of 95SG changes state when BOTH output of 95SG are
energized when the input to 95SG is energized. If that's true, then it should be connected to a NON-
INVERTED input of the Mark VIe, that changes state when the NO contacts of 95SG change state. And, then
the rung you have provided will work correctly because l30sg1 will be a logic "1" when BOTH outputs of 95SG
are energized when the input to 95SG is energized.
CSA,
Thank you for the quick reply. I was under the impression that,
a) 30SG-1 & l30sg1 are same, but I was wrong. Fromyour reply I understand that 30SG-1 is a discrete output
of 95SG and l30sg1 is a discrete input to the Mark VIe through an I/O pack, which changes it's state when
30SG-1 is closed.
b) "NC" & inversion (using NOT Gate) are same, but now I realize that an NC relay (l30sg1 in this case) can
be inverted again in the logic block.
I have info only about 30SG-1 that it's an "NO" relay, but I amnot sure if l30sg1 is an "NC" relay.
Hope I amcorrect this time, will wait for your reply before asking more questions.
Batman,
30SG-1 "drives" l30sg1. You should think of it like this:
NORMAL ( Non- I nver t ed) Di scr et e I nput
t o Di gi t al Speedt r oni c Tur bi ne
Cont r ol Panel
Har dwar e | Sof t war e
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
30SG- 1 I nput Scr ew l 30sg1
- - - | | - - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( ) - - -
|
|
It's important to note that we are talking about a NORMAL (Non-Inverted) discrete input to a digital
Speedtronic turbine control panel. (We'll discuss INVERTED discrete inputs below.)
It's a rung, yes, but the vertical line in the drawing represents a "division" between hardware and software.
What I'mtrying to represent is that a physical device (a pair of normally open contacts in this case) "drives" or
in GE-speak "writes to" a software coil, energizing or de-energizing the software coil if the hardware contacts
close or open, respectively. Yes, l30sg1 is a discrete input to the Speedtronic, but it's really a software coil--with
associated normally open and normally closed contacts. The "coil" of l30sg1 never appears in any ToolboxST
representation, or Legacy Toolbox representation, or in any Mark V representation. However, the Mark IV
Speedtronic Elementary--the finest digital Speeedtronic document ever produced by GE--DID show the
representation above. It's how I visualize EVERY single discrete input to any digital Speedtronic turbine
control panel. Because, it's what is happening--but it's never shown in modern digital GE Speedtronic
representations.
Moderator's Note: the sentence below has been corrected at the author's request.
In the rung above, when the physical contact (30SG-1) is open, the software coil (l30sg1) will be a logic "0",
false, dropped out. J ust like with any coil (software or hardware) there are contacts associated with the coil:
normally open contacts and normally closed contacts.
Cont r ol Panel
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - - | | - - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( ) - - -
| |
| |
| |
| - - - | | - - -
| |
| - - - | / | - - -
|
|
OR
l 30sg1
| - - - | | - - -
| l 30sg1
| - - - | / | - - -
In the drawing above, I'mtrying to show normally open and normally closed software contacts "driven by" the
software coil l30sg1. The vertical line down fromthe l30sg1 coil is meant to show that when L30sg1 changes
state, the contacts change state. Below that, I'mjust trying to show another normally open- and normally closed
set of contacts associated with l30sg1--and they also change state when the software coil l30sg1 changes state.
These software contacts can be used in any rung or function block in application code--there's no limit to the
number of normally open or normally closed contacts, and the state of the contacts (open or closed) is a function
of the state of l30sg1. J ust like with a physical relay, or pressure switch or temperature switch. When the relay
or temperature switch or pressure switch is NOT actuated, normally open contacts of the device will be OPEN,
and normally closed contacts of the device will be CLOSED. When the relay or temperature switch or pressure
IS actuated, normally open contact of the device will be CLOSED and normally closed contacts associated with
the device will be OPEN. (I don't know about NO coils and NC coils; I only know about NO contacts and NC
contacts.)
When the normally open contacts of 30SG-1 are open then l30sg1 will be false, a logic "0". This means that
normally open contacts associated with l30sg1 will remain open, and normally closed contacts associated with
l30sg1 will remain closed. And, when the normally open contacts of 30SG-1 close the software coil l30sg1 will
be a logic "1" (true). When l30sg1 is a logic "1" (true), normally open contacts associated with l30sg1 will close,
and normally closed contacts associated with l30sg1 will open. Here's a table to describe this:
Cont r ol Panel
30SG- 1 NO l 30sg1 Coi l L30sg1 NO l 30sg1 NC
Cont act St at e Logi c St at e Cont act St at e Cont act St at e
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OPEN " 0" ( Fal se) OPEN CLOSED
CLOSED " 1" ( Tr ue) CLOSED OPEN
So, to your a) statement, I respond that you are correct--mostly--in that 30SG-1 is a discrete input through an
I/O Pack which changes the state of l30sg1 based on the state of 30SG-1. But, I want to be clear: It's a
software coil (l30sg1) that changes state when the discrete input (30SG-1) changes state. And, normally open-
and normally closed software contacts associated with l30sg1 change state when the discrete input (30SG-1) to
the I/O Pack changes state.
I don't know how to respond to your b) statement; I don't know what your experience or frame of reference is
for inverted signals. Yes, a normally closed contact is an "inverted" normally open contact. But, that's not how I
think of normally open versus normally closed. I prefer only to think of coils as being 'normal' or 'inverted'--I'll
explain below.
Let's talk about inverted inputs, and inversion masking--as done by GE in their digital turbine control panels.
Let's presume that discrete input l30sg1 was inverted in the I/O Pack configuration; it's pictorial representation
would look like the drawing below, and it would also have normally open and normally closed software contacts
associated with it:
I NVERTED Di scr et e I nput
Cont r ol Panel
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - - | | - - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( I ) - - -
| |
| |
| |
| - - - | | - - -
| |
| - - - | / | - - -
|
|
OR
l 30sg1
| - - - | | - - -
| l 30sg1
| - - - | / | - - -
Note the "I" in the coil of l30sg1; this represents an inverted coil, or, an inverted discrete input. Note also that
the inverted discrete input has normally open and normally closed software contacts associated with it.
The table below shows what the states of the various elements of the discrete input will be based on the state of
the normally open contacts of 30SG-1:
I NVERTED Di scr et e I nput
Cont r ol Panel
30SG- 1 NO l 30sg1 Coi l L30sg1 NO l 30sg1 NC
Cont act St at e Logi c St at e Cont act St at e Cont act St at e
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OPEN " 1" ( Tr ue) CLOSED OPEN
CLOSED " 0" ( Fal se) OPEN CLOSED
For an inverted input, the l30sg1 coil will be a logic "1" when 30SG-1 contacts are open (the opposite of what
one would expect!), and normally open l30sg1 contacts would be CLOSED and normally closed l30sg1 contacts
would be OPEN. I prefer to think of inversions as only being applied to software coils, not to contacts.
This is where, I think, a lot of people get confused. Normally open contacts can be open or closed, and normally
closed contacts can be open or closed. They're not always open or closed, respectively; they change state based
on the state of the device (for real, physical contacts) or software coil (for software contacts) driving them.
ALWAYS, normally open contacts associated with a device or software coil are OPEN when the device is
NOT actuated or when the software coil is a logic "0" (False). And, ALWAYS normally closed contacts
associated with a device or software coil are CLOSED when the device is NOT actuated or when the
software coil is a logic "0" (False). When the device or software coil IS actuated or when it's a logic "1" (True),
normally open contacts associated with the device or the software coil are ALWAYS CLOSED, and normally
closed contacts associated with the device or the software coil are ALWAYS OPEN (when the device IS
actuated or when the software coil is a logic "1" (True)).
I hope this helps. Again, I don't know what your experience has been with inverted signals; quite often people
refer to "inverting" a contact when they are changing the contact fromnormally open to normally closed, or vice
versa. To my way of thinking, I don't want to get that confused with inverted discrete inputs versus non-inverted
discrete inputs. Both can have normally open and normally closed contacts that ALWAYS behave in the same
way with respect to the device or software coil status. It's only the software coil status that changes based on
it's inversion mask setting (NORMAL or INVERTED).
If it's not clear, let me know. I'll try a different tack (to use a sailing term). I have read and re-read and re-re-
read the above in an effort to try to ensure there are no errors--but, I'mnot the best person to proof-read my
own writing. If there are errors, I will try to persuade the Kind, Friendly Moderator to correct themfor me.
CSA,
I amreally amazed by your sheer persistence to offer help to the needy. And after spending lot of time in typing
& re-reading, you were even ready to offer more support if it's not clear. OMG!! I would not do that to a
stranger if I were you (hate to say this, though). Really we are very fortunate to have you here.
I hope It's clear for me now. Inversion is applied to the software coils, not to the contacts associated with it. So
the inverted discrete input to the TCP, would result in a block like this, as you said in your reply.
30SG- 1 NO l 30sg1 Coi l l 30sg1 NC
Cont act St at e Logi c St at e Cont act St at e
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OPEN "1" ( Tr ue) OPEN
CLOSED "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED
I'll put it this way. 30SG-1 closes on ignition exciter fault (sensing one faulty output or both exciters fault is not
known at this moment), and since inversion is applied to the l30sg1 COIL, it's output to the NC contact is "zero"
& which in turn gives output "1" and generates the alarm. But how to identify that an inversion is applied to a
software coil? Is there any other means to know, than to find it out accidentally & hoping that it must have been
inverted? Has it got something to do with "inversion masking", like it's inverted but "masked"? Guess I amasking
too many questions, but I amnot in a hurry to learn, so reply me when you have free time.
And thanks a ton again for your generous reply to my previous post.
Posted by CSA on 31 July, 2014 - 10:09 am
Batman,
I don't think we know when 30SG-1 changes state, actually. We don't know if it changes state when the input to
95SG is energized and both outputs are energized, or if it changes state when the input to 95SG is energized and
at least one of the outputs is NOT energized. My suggestion to you is to use Trend Recorder to monitor l2tvx1
and l30sg1 during the next START. We'll presume that both outputs are energized when the input to 95SG is
energized (that's a fair assumption for now, especially if the unit and ignitor power supply are relatively new). If
l30sg1 changes state very shortly after l2tvx1 changes state then my presumption would be that 30SG-1
changes state whenever the input to 95SG is energized and BOTH outputs are energized. (This seems to be
what happened on units I've worked on in the past. This is a "positive" indication that the ignitor outputs are both
energized when the input to 95SG is energized. If one or both outputs were not energized when the input to
95SG was energized, then 30SG-1 would NOT change state--indicating a failure of one or more exciter
"channels" (I've always hated that description, but no one ever asked me what the alarmtext message should
have read). This would also go along with GE's philosophy of using device contacts that open to alarmor trip--
because the normally open 30SG-1 contacts would NOT close if one or both of the outputs were not energized
when the input to 95SG-1 is energized.
As for determining if a discrete input is inverted or not, one needs to use ToolboxST and open the configuration
of the I/O Pack(s) through which the signal in question is connected, scroll to the signal name, and then check
the configuration of the signal in the main window of ToolboxST. It will read either INVERTED or NORMAL
(Not Inverted), or, if the input is unused I think I will read NOT USED. I forget the name of this parameter for
discrete inputs, but it should be easy to locate.
I'mpretty certain that if you were able to disassemble 95SG you would find a small electro-mechanical relay,
and a normally open contact of that relay would be connected to the two terminals which are 30SG-1. (It might
be a solid-state relay, too; who knows. The point is: A normally open contact of a relay of some sort in 95SG is
connected to the two terminals being described as 30SG-1.) So, there is some internal circuitry that energizes
and de-energizes the relay I'mgoing to call 30SG-1, and a normally open contact is wired to the two terminals
that are ultimately wired to the two discrete input terminals that drive "imaginary" software coil l30sg1.
Imaginary software coil l30sg1 may--or may not--be inverted; that's done in the I/O Pack configuration for that
input using ToolboxST. Software contacts associated with "imaginary" software coil l30sg1 are used in the rung
you provided to generate an alarmwhen there is a problemwith one or both of the high-energy ignitor exciter
power supply outputs.
I have a question for you, Batman. Why did you choose this particular alarmand discrete input and alarm? Does
this alarmget annunciated every time the unit is started? Or, has this alarmjust recently start to be annunciated
every time the unit is started?
I have been to MANY sites that have this alarmevery single time the unit is started--and no one ever takes any
action. Why? Because the commissioning person fromthe turbine packager did nothing, and just said, "That's
normal; it will happen every time the turbine starts." Which is hooey. So, please tell us why you chose this input
and alarmto inquire about. Thanks!
Posted by Batman on 31 July, 2014 - 8:34 pm
CSA,
I have not faced any problemwith this alarm, but when I was going through the start up sequence, this
particular block confused me. Now I have a better idea, thanks to you & control.com. I worked in the
commissioning, involved in few start ups in which the turbine was loaded to spinning reserve. Now I amon to a
different assignment, trying to understand Mark Vie control philosophy during free time.
Fromone of your posts in a different forumI understand that the exact purpose of inversion masking is to make
the logic signal associated with a discrete input a logic "1" when the contact or the circuit is open. I amnot sure
it it's used here. Please shed some light on this.
Batman,
Can you provide a link to the comment so I can build on the information for the explanation?
Posted by Batman on 1 August, 2014 - 8:58 am
>Can you provide a link to the comment so I can build on the information for the explanation?
CSA,
It's fromthe forum"Getting a better understanding of gas turbine control" and the link is
http://www.control.com/thread/1399292917.
Comment Posted on 18 May, 2014 - 12:46 pm.
Posted by CSA on 1 August, 2014 - 4:02 pm
Batman,
I have a better thread (not forum--control.comis the forum, which has individual threads (questions)):
http://www.control.com/thread/1026245600#1026245640
Try this and see if it's helpful or not. (I HOPE it is!)
And to your comment about not helping a stranger, we're all strangers until we meet--even if it's in a World
Wide Web/Internet forum, AND I'mnot just helping you. Hopefully I'mhelping many others--not just now, but
later, as others find and read the thread and responses.
As I've said before, I was extremely fortunate to have had a "stranger" (as he was in the beginning) help me
many, many years ago when I didn't know a compressor bleed valve froma purge solenoid froma false start
drain valve froman LVDT (heck--I couldn't even spell LVDT then!), and so I'mjust paying it back, and also
trying to "pay it forward" to some extent in the hopes that others will learn and be able to do the same with other
"strangers" in their lives.
I'mnot sharing any proprietary information, and none of this stuff is the "rocket science" it's made out to be. A
lot of if is really simple--if people will just take the time to RTFM (Read The Fine Manual) and do a little bit of
Internet research. I do realize that in some parts of the work Internet access is restricted, but I find in those
same parts of the world that there is (UNFORTUNATELY!!!) a LOT of copyrighted material illegally posted
to the World Wide Web/Internet so information is available, just not in more easily accessible locations. (I AM
NOT encouraging anyone to ever download copy-righted material that has been posted illegally posted
somewhere. Not ever. Never. I'mjust saying that it's pretty hypocritical to block access to some sites and
permit access--even encourage, as I've seen in some cases--use of sites that have illegally posted copyrighted
material available for download. And that's all I'mgoing to say on this subject--information is out there, if one is
patient and creative and ambitious.)
Anyway, have a read of the thread above--and my upcoming post to this thread--and see if it all begins to make
sense. Actually, I recommend you read themseveral times over a couple of days, maybe longer, before asking
for any clarification. It's a LOT of information, but hopefully presented in a clear and (intended) concise way,
while being as literal as possible (considering all the possibilities and detailing themto make everything as clear
as possible).
Together, after reading the two threads (more than once), you should be able to understand the reason for
inversion masking, even if, technically, it's not really required in today's digital world of automation controllers.
It's still a very useful concept to grasp--open to alarm/trip; closed on good/normal. And, I've been to MANY
plants all over the world (industrialized, first-world countries as well as non-industrialized second- and third-
world countries) where BAD things have happened when 'open to alarm/trip; closed on good'normal' hasn't
been used/followed consistently in the plant design and commissioning.
One doesn't technically need inversion masking, it's just makes some things simpler (once certain decisions have
been made, and continued through the decades even when control automation systems have changed). It's just
one way of accomplishing something that could be done another way--but, as in most parts of the capitalistic
world: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Changing it in the GE world would entail a LOT of changes to a LOT of
drawings and application code--and, again, if it ain't broke, why fix it? (But they should be much better at
explaining it, shouldn't they? Because even their field service personnel and in many cases their control design
personnel don't know or understand this stuff. And that means they can't explain it to anyone else, either.)
And, I always encourage everyone to do this when encountering something new or unusual: Draw things in a
manner that makes sense to themwhile trying to work out and understand them. Sometimes, a drawing froma
manufacturer can seemvery obtuse and confusing, and just re-drawing it in a manner that you're comfortable
with can be very enlightening. Once you see it in a familiar format, it will make sense in it's "native" format, too.
Use logic diagrams and tables as you work through things and issues--they can be very helpful and useful.
Remember: "Learning is finding out what you already knew." (Richard Bach, 'Illusions') And it is, isn't it? When
somebody explains something so that you (finally) understand it, or when you finally come to know that you
understand something, doesn't it feel like, "Hey! That makes sense! I knew that!!!" And we all do, it's just
finding the way to, using our experience and points of reference, have it make sense with what we already
know--and then it really is just like we knew this, we just didn't know we knew it.
I really enjoy seeing that "light" come on for people when they finally realize, "Hey! That's it! I knew this, and
now I know I know it!" The expression on someone's face when they have that realization is absolutely
priceless--even if I can't see their face!
As a former colleague was fond of saying, "This ain't rocket science!" And it's really not. But until one takes the
time to research and understand--and to question things they're told and review and analyze themto see if
they're logical and true--a lot of this stuff seems like rocket science.
Posted by be_anon on 1 August, 2014 - 10:24 am
>I don't think we know when 30SG-1 changes state, actually.
This may help, fromthe manual. Note the ignitor box has both NO and NC contacts for 30SG-1:
The exciter contains a diagnostic circuit that operates each time the exciter is operated (each time exciter is in
the "ON" condition). The diagnostics circuit has no effect on the operation of the exciter. The diagnostic circuit
monitors the exciter operation for these two things:
1-Output Voltage for a "minimum" value of approximately 15 KV
2-Spark Rate for a "minimum" value of approximately 1.0 sparks/second.
If the Output Voltage or the Spark Rate becomes less than the "minimum" value, a relay in the diagnostic circuit
is energized and will stay energized for the remaining time the exciter is in the "ON" condition - the relay is de-
energized when input power is removed fromthe exciter (when exciter is in the "OFF" condition).
The relay is connected to three terminals of the "Diagnostic Output" terminal strip, but does not send an
electrical signal to those terminals. To have an indication that an exciter malfunction has occurred, an external
circuit (supplied by the operator) must be connected to the "Diagnostic Output" terminal strip. When the relay is
energized, a circuit between a pair of "normally open" terminals is changed to closed, and a circuit between a
pair of "normally closed" terminals is changed to open.
Posted by CSA on 1 August, 2014 - 5:43 pm
be_anon,
Thanks for the information!
So, the diagnostic circuit operates each time the exciter (the ignitor power supply) is energized (so when l2tvx1
is a logic "1"). And a relay in the diagnostic circuit operates when there is a fault (low output or low spark rate).
Hmmm.... (That brings up more questions about the alarmtext message, but that's for another day.)
So, in this case, 30SG-1 changes state when 95SG-1 is energized AND there IS a fault.
As with the other "big" response earlier, I have read and re-read and re-re-read and re-re-re-read the post to
find errors. Again, I hope the Kind, Friendly Moderator would accept a request to fix any errors should they
rear their ugly heads after it is posted. (Thanks in advance!)
Batman,
Let's take the case of the 30SG-1/l30sg1 discrete input circuit being wired to the normally open (NO) contact of
the ignitor exciter diagnostic circuit. Here's our drawing of a non-inverted input circuit:
NORMAL ( Non- I nver t ed) NO 30SG- 1 Di scr et e I nput
t o Di gi t al Speedt r oni c Tur bi ne Cont r ol Panel
( 30SG- 1 Changes St at e ( Cl oses) on a Faul t )
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - - | | - - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( ) - - -
|
| l 30sg1
| - - - | / | - - -
And here's the alarmrung fromBatman's post above:
- - - | / | - - - - - - - - | | - - - - - - - - - - - ( )
And here's a table of what happens when l2tvx1 is energized and there is NOT a fault in the ignitor exciter:
l 2t vx1 30SG- 1 NO l 30sg1 Coi l L30sg1 NC L30SG1_ALM
St at e Cont act St at e Logi c St at e Cont act St at e St at e
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" OPEN "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED "0"
"1" OPEN "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED "1" -
ALARM!!!
In this case, l30sg1 is a logic "0" when there is not a fault. Because the NC l30sg1 contacts in the alarmrung
would be closed when there is not a fault this would mean that every time the ignitors were energized and there
was NOT a fault that the Mark VIe would annunciate an alarm--erroneously. (Oh no, Mr. Bill!!!)
And here's a table of what happens when l2tvx1 is energized and there IS a fault in the ignitor exciter:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" OPEN "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED "0"
"1" CLOSED "1" ( Fal se) OPEN "1" - NO al ar m
In this case, l30sg1 is a logic "1" when there is a fault. This would also mean that if the ignitors were energized
and there WAS an alarmthat the alarmwould NOT be annunciated (because the NC l30sg1 contact in the
alarmrung would be open). Both conditions are BAD--an alarmwhen there is NOT a fault, and no alarmwhen
there IS a fault.
Now, let's see what would happen if someone just inverted the 30SG-1 input (l30sg1) to the Mark VI, while
leaving the circuit connected to the NO contact of 30SG-1:
I NVERTED NO 30SG- 1 Di scr et e I nput
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - - | | - - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (
I
) - - -
|
| l 30sg1
| - - - | / | - - -
- - - | / | - - - - - - - - | | - - - - - - - - - - - ( )
And here's a table of what happens when l2tvx1 is energized and there is NOT a fault in the ignitor exciter
when the 30SG-1 (l30sg1) discrete input is inverted:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" OPEN "1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0"
"1" OPEN "1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0" - NO Al ar m
In this case, l30sg1 is a logic "1" when there is not a fault--and there would not be an alarmwhen there was not
a fault when the ignitor exciter was energized because the NC l30sg1 contact in the alarmrung would be open--
and this is as it should be.
And here's a table of what happens when l2tvx1 is energized and there IS a fault in the ignitor exciter when the
30SG-1 (l30sg1) discrete input is inverted:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" OPEN "1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0"
"1" CLOSED "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED "1" -
ALARM!!!
In this case if there was a fault when the ignitor exciter was energized, l30sg1 would be a logic "0" and the NC
contacts of l30sg1 could be closed and there WOULD BE an alarm. (All is good, Mr. Bill!)
NOW, let's consider what would happen if a wire fell off a terminal in the 30SG-1 circuit that was connected to
an inverted input, or a wire came out of a crimp terminal lug, or a wire came loose fromthe Mark VIe input
terminal board for the 30SG-1 discrete input--AND there was a fault when the ignitor exciter was energized,
then even if the NO contact of 30SG-1 closed the Mark VIe would not see the change of state--and there
would be NO alarmwhen there was a fault. So, this is not a good thing--and is a "violation" of GE's policy of an
open circuit to alarmor trip and a closed circuit when the condition being monitored is good/normal.
All too often, unfortunately, people just simply change the inversion mask to make an input "work"--but it's not
really working properly, meaning that it would not alarmif there was an open in the circuit. Sure, there's no
alarmwhen there's no fault, but what about when there is a fault and there is an open in the circuit and the
contact closure doesn't get to the Mark VIe? Then there is no alarm--and that's not really "working properly." In
this case, the ignitor exciter, it's not really too much of a problembecause this isn't used as turbine trip or
shutdown condition. But, it could make troubleshooting difficult if the turbine were having difficulties starting that
were a result of problems with the ignitor exciter that weren't alarmed because of a open in the input circuit.
So, how to fix this and ensure that an open in the circuit would not prevent a fault frombeing recognized by the
Mark VIe? Change the wire at 30SG-1 fromthe NO contact to the NC contact AND use a non-inverted input.
So, here's all the requisite drawings and tables for a NC contact from30SG-1 connected to a non-inverted input
driving l30sg1:
NORMAL ( Non- I nver t ed) 30SG- 1 NC Di scr et e I nput
( 30SG- 1 Changes St at e ( Opens) on a Faul t )
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - -
|/|
- - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( ) - - -
|
| l 30sg1
| - - - | / | - - -
- - - | / | - - - - - - - - | | - - - - - - - - - - - ( )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" CLOSED " 1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0"
"1" CLOSED " 1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0" - NO Al ar m
In this case, l30sg1 is a logic "1" when there is not a fault, and the l30sg1 NC contact in the alarmrung would be
open so there would be no alarm. This is good, right? When the ignitor exciter is energized and there IS NOT a
fault, there will NOT be an alarm.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" CLOSED "1" ( Tr ue) OPEN "0"
"1" OPEN "0" ( Fal se) CLOSED "1" -
ALARM!
In this case, l30sg1 would be a logic "0" when there was a fault, and because the l30sg1 contact in the alarm
rung would be closed there would be an alarm. This would also mean that if the ignitors were energized and
there WAS a fault that the alarmWOULD BE annunciated. This is good! This is what we want.
It would also mean that if a wire came loose (fell off) in the 30SG-1 circuit connected to the NC contact that
when the ignitor exciter was energized that an alarmwould be annunciated--which may be "false", but it alerts
the operator and technician to a problemwith the wiring (see more on this below). And this is good, too.
Right?
Well, almost.... By GE's convention, the discrete input coil is usually a logic "1" when there is an alarmor trip
condition, and in the above scenario with a NC 30SG-1 contact driving a non-inverted discrete input l30sg1, it
(l30sg1) is a logic "1" when there is NOT a fault. And, the '30' in the signal name stands for "AlarmDevice",
which implies that when the signal is a logic "1" it should indicate an alarm(or trip) condition. Right?
Well, to make everything match GE's conventions for 'closed circuit to indicate good/normal conditions; open
circuit to indicate alarm/trip condition' AND the discrete input signal should be a logic "1" to indicate an alarmor
trip condition AND match the signal naming convention (in this case, a 30 device is an alarmdevice--implying
that when the signal l30sg1 is a logic "1" it's indicating a fault with "spark generator #1" (95SG-1)), we have to
invert the input AND change the sense of the contact in the L30SG1_ALM rung, like below:
NC 30SG- 1 Connect ed t o an I NVERTED Di scr et e I nput
of a Di gi t al Speedt r oni c Tur bi ne Cont r ol Panel
( 30SG- 1 Changes St at e ( opens) on a Faul t )
- - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - -
|
Physi cal |
Cont act |
- - -
|/|
- - - - - - - - - - o- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ( I ) - - -
|
| l 30sg1
| - - - | | - - -
And here's the modified alarmrung fromBatman's post above:
- - -
| |
- - - - - - - - | | - - - - - - - - - - - ( )
l 2t vx1 30SG- 1 NC l 30sg1 Coi l L30sg1
NO
L30SG1_ALM
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" CLOSED " 0" ( Fal se) OPEN "0"
"1" CLOSED " 0" ( Fal se) OPEN "0" - NO Al ar m
When the ignitor exciter is energized and there IS NOT a fault, there will NOT be an alarm. And when there is
NOT a fault, l30sg1 will be a logic "0".
l 2t vx1 30SG- 1 NC l 30sg1 Coi l L30sg1
NO
L30SG1_ALM
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"0" CLOSED "0" ( Fal se) OPEN "0"
"1" OPEN "1" ( Tr ue) CLOSED "1" -
ALARM!
When there is a fault, 30SG-1 NC contact will open, l30SG1 will be a logic "1", the NO contact of l30sg1 will be
closed--and there WILL BE an alarm. All is good!!!
Now, if a wire falls off in the 30SG-1 circuit or comes loose from30SG-1 or the Mark VIe 30SG-1 input circuit,
then immediately l30sg1 will go to a logic "1", and as soon as the l2tvx1 goes to a logic "1" to energize the ignitor
exciter a fault will be annunciated--even if there is not a fault at the exciter (the NC contact remained closed)!
Which will send the technician out to troubleshoot the problem--which will be very easy to troubleshoot.
Let's say during a START, the alarm'IGNITOR EXCITER CHANNEL FAILED' was annunciated but the
turbine started and was subsequently loaded. That would mean that at least one of the ignitor exciter outputs
(presuming it has two outputs) and/or one of the ignitors fired and ignited flame in one of the combustors. The
application code only energizes the ignitors for a short period (30-60 seconds, at most) so l2tvx1 will go back to
a logic "0" after the firing timer expires and the ignitor exciter will be de-energized. Which should mean that the
30SG-1 NC contact would again close, so the technician should be able to use ToolboxST to look at l30sg1 and
find it a logic "0"--meaning that there was no fault when the ignitor exciter was de-energized. BUT, he finds
l30sg1 a logic "1" when the ignitor exciter was not energized--indicating that either:
1) 30SG-1 is not working properly and the NC contact is "stuck" open
or
2) there is an open wire/termination somewhere in the 30SG-1 discrete input circuit
or
3) there is a problemwith the 30SG-1 discrete input circuit of the Mark VIe (either the input terminal board has
a problem, or the I/O pack circuitry for that input has a problem)--BUT in this case the Mark VIe would most
likely be (SHOULD BE) annunciating a Diagnostic Alarmfor this particular input circuit, so an alert technician
should be able to quickly diagnose the problemas a Mark VIe problembecause of the Diagnostic Alarm.
Using his trusty voltmeter, the technician measures the voltage at the 30SG-1 discrete input terminals and finds
~130 VDC, indicating an open circuit. He then uses the drawings provided with the unit to check all the
terminations in all the junction boxes out to the ignitor exciter junction box and ultimately he finds a wire has
come loose froma crimp terminal in the ignitor exciter junction box. He repairs the crimp (carefully--because it
will have ~65 VDC on the wire while the turbine is running!) and when he checks l30sg1 again using ToolboxST
he finds it is now a logic "0" when the turbine is running. (I would have gone immediately to the ignitor exciter
junction box to look for a loose termination or crimp; and if I didn't find anything there I would follow the conduit
leaving the ignitor exciter junction box with the 30CG-1 wires in it to the next junction box, opened that junction
box and looked for loose wires/crimps, and so on until I found the problem. No need to find drawings--which
may or may not have been marked-up to reflect changes during installation and commissioning.)
So, I think we've beat this subject to it's (hopeful) conclusion.
Posted by Batman on 2 August, 2014 - 10:11 am
CSA,
Can't ask for more!! Thanks a lot for your help & guidance. I'll go through the link you provided, before asking
questions. I regret what I said about helping strangers and yes, we are not strangers anymore!! I totally agree
with your comment "This ain't rocket science". But sometimes it's very difficult to understand the nuances of an
"alien" topic no matter how much effort you put into the subject unless some one guides you. Thank you once
again & all those who share their knowledge on this forum.
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Testing Spark Plugs of Mark-V Control System

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Testing Spark Plugs of Mark-V Control System

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