1

1 UNITED STATES SENATE

2
Select Committee on Ethics

3
Washington, D.C.
4
5

6
IN RE: ENSIGN INQUIRY
7

8
CONFIDENTIAL DEPOSITION OF
9
10
11
12

13
Wednesday, March 16, 2011
14
15

16
Hart Senate Office Building

17
Suite 220
18
19

20 REPORTED BY:
21
22
23
24
25

26 OW
AN1
.1.-SSCE0003686
1 Deposition of
called for

2
examination pursuant to notice of deposition, on

3
Wednesday, March 16, 2011, in Washington, DC, a:t the

4
Senate Select Committee on Ethics, Hart Senate
Office Building, Suite 220, at 2:11 p.m., before

6
, a Notary Public within and for the

7
District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of

8 the respective parties:

9

10
ESQ.

11
ESQ.

12
ESQ.

13
K&L Gates LLP

14
1601 K Street, NW

15
Washington, DC 20006-1600

16
202-778-9000

17
On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
--continued--
26
2
MIESSCE0003687
1

APPEARANCES (continued):
2

ESQ.

ESQ.

ESQ.

ESQ.

ESQ.
United States Senate Select

9
Committee on Ethics

10
220 Hart Senate Office Building

11
Washington, DC 20510

12
202-224-2981

13
111.111.111ffethics . senate. gov

14
111111111111rethics.senate.gov

15
IIIIIIIIIIIIIkethics.senate.gov

16
ethics.senate.gov

17
1111.111.11.1111.ethics . senate. gov

18
On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

--continued--
26
-SSCE0003688
1 APPEARANCES (continued):
2
3

4
United States Senate Select
Committee on Ethics

6
220 Hart Senate Office Building

7
Washington, DC 20510

8
202-

9
On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee
10

11
ESQ.
12

13
Las Vegas, Nevada 20001

14 702-

15
On Behalf of the Witness
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
-SSCE0003689
1
PROCEEDINGS

2 Whereupon,
3

4 was called as a witness and, having first been duly

5
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

6
EXAMINATION

7 BY

8 Q
Good afternoon. My name is

9
I am a Special Counsel of the Senate Select

10
Committee on Ethics, appointed for the purpose of

11
assisting the committee and advising them with

12 respect to investigation Senator John

13 Ensign.

14
And I'd like to also let you know who

15
these other people are in this room. This is a

16 colleague of mine,

17
: Good afternoon.

18
And

19
And if everybody else could introduce

20 themselves, all staff attorneys. is

21 sitting at the desk, Chief Counsel for the

22 Senate Ethics Committee.

23 And if you could.

24
counsel for the

25 committee.
26
5
SSCE0003690
counsel as
counsel as

5
: Hi,

Deputy

6 Staff Director.

7
: And I'm

8 counsel to the committee.

9 BY

10 Q
And to your left is the court reporter.

11
When you're asked questions, if you please try to

12
wait for me to finish asking a question before you

13
answer it, and please speak up loudly enough so that

14 she can hear everything that you say.

15
Before we proceed with questions today,

16
I'm going to read to you something that

17
we are required to read to every witness who appears

18
before the committee, so it's not directed at you

19
personally. It's just a statement of warnings, a

20 statement of advice.

21
The Senate Select Committee on Ethics has

22
summoned you here today for a deposition as a

23
witness in connection with the committee's

24
preliminary inquiry concerning Senator John Ensign.

25
Our questions and your answers will be
26
1

Hi,
2 well.
3
4 well.
SSCE0003691
1 recorded by the court reporter, and because this is

2 a deposition before a legislative branch of

3 government, your statements today are subject to

4 what's called the False Statements Statute, which is

5 Section 1001 of Title XVIII of the United States

6 Code.

7 Additionally -- and that is for your

8 information, a felony to give false statements to a

9 legislative committee.

10
Additionally, because this is a sworn

11 deposition, your statements are also subject to the

12 penalty of perjury under both Section 7(b) of the

13 Supplementary Procedural Rules of the Select

14 Committee on Ethics, as well as Section 1621 of

15
Title XVIII of the United States Code, as well as

16
the Obstruction of Congress Statute, which is 18 USC

17 section 1505.

18
Thus, you may nbt make any intentionally

19 false statements or knowingly mislead the committee

20 through your answers today.

21
Also, I want to let you know about some

22 rules regarding the proceeding. Supplementary

23 procedure rule 8 dictates strict confidentiality on

24 our part regarding the fact of this deposition and

25 all our statements made here today.

26
7
.1.-SSCE0003692
1
This rule does not govern your own

2 discussions of this interview. However, it is our

3 expectation and hope that no witness would tailor or

4 coordinate testimony based upon any earlier

5
deposition that has been taken or for any other
reason. And also, it's our expectation and hope

7
that there would be no public statements made about
this deposition today. We respect the

9
confidentiality of the proceedings, and we would ask

10 that you do as well.

11
: And we will respect that.

12
: I'm sure you will. It's in

13
nobody's interest to have public statements about

14 the proceeding.

15 BY

16 Q
Therefore, we request that you refrain

17
from discussing our questions and your answers with

18 anyone other than your attorney.

19
Do you understand this?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. Additionally, pursuant to

22
Supplementary Procedural Rule 6, you are entitled to

23
the opportunity to inspect the transcript of your

24
deposition in the committee's offices and request

25
that transcription errors be corrected. Not -- you
26
8
=II-SSCE0003693
1 can't change what you testified to, the substance of

2 what you testified to, but if there are spelling

3 errors or if words were -- if the reporter did get

4 them wrong, you can correct that.

5
And if you wish to do this, then you can

6 have your attorney contact us. We've already been

7 in discussion with about making that

8 opportunity quickly available to you.

9
Finally, if you want to take a break at

10
any time for any reason, bathroom break or break to

11 talk to let us know. And just we'd

12
prefer that you not take such a break when there's a

13
question pending. But we, of course, will give you

14

that opportunity to take a break when asked.

15
We are not trying t -- as I've explained

16 before to
other witnesses,

17
nobody is trying to trip anyone up in our questions.

18
So if you have any question about the question, if

19
you think you don't understand the question and you

20
want me to repeat it, then tell me so.

21
I'm not -- I'm not always the perfect

22
questioner, and I'll be happy to rephrase a question

23
so that you know and you are confident that you

24 understand it.

25
Do you understand all of this that I've
26
9
=111-SSCE0003694
1 just said?

2 A Yes.

3 (Exhibit 11-1 identified.)

4 BY

5 Q
I will now show you what has been marked

6
as Exhibit 11-1 for today's proceeding and ask you

7
to review this document and confirm that it is the

8
notice we've sent to you to appear here today to

9 appear as a witness.

10
(Witness reviewed the document.)

11
: I will confirm that that is.

12
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

13 BY

14 Q
Okay. Thank you.

15
Can you please tell me -- just tell me a

16
little bit about yourself by way of a narrative,

17
when you were born, where you were born, your

18 educational background?

19 A
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
10
SSCE0003695
1
2
3

4
Excuse me a minute. Did you

5 get the spelling of the

6

7
: It is okay, fine.

8 THE WITNESS:
9
10
11

12 BY

13 Q
Let me stop you right there.

14 A Okay.
15
16
17

18 A
19
20
21

22 A

23 Q
And I should have warned you of that at

24
the beginning. That's something we all do. But it

25
has to be a yes-or-no answer for the court reporter.
26
-SSCE0003696
1

2A

3 Q
Okay.
4

5 A
6
7
8
9

10 A
11

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay.
14

15 A

16 Q Okay.
17

18 A

19 Q Okay.
20

21 A
22
23

24 A
25
26
12
-SSCE0003697
1
2 A
3 Q
Okay.
4
5
6
7 A Yes.
8
9 A Yes.
10
11
12 A
13 Q Okay. All right.
14
15
16
17 A MI
18 Q
Okay. And let's jump way ahead now.
19
20
21
22 A
23
24
25 A
26
13
IIIIM-SSCE0003698
1 Q Okay.
2

3 A
4

Q Yes, right.

6 A Yes.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14

15 : Okay.

16 BY

17 Q
Now, your counsel who is with you today,
18
19

20 A

21 Q Okay.
22
23

24 BY

25 Q
Okay. But just for the record,
26
14
-SSCE0003699
A
Q
1
2

3 A Yes.

4
Q
5
6
7
8

9 A Yes.

10 Q
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A Exactly.

20 Q
21

22 A Yes.

23 Q
Okay.
24
25
26
15
=I-SSCE0003700
1
2
3
A
Q
A
And do you remember who that was?
I'm sorry, I don't.
4 Q Okay.
5
6 A At that -- I'm sorry, I don't recall.
7 Q
Okay. That's all right.
8
9
10
11
12 A
13
14
15
16 THE WITNESS:
17 BY
18 Q
Okay.
19
20 A Yes.
21
22 A Yes.
23
24
25 A Yes.
26
16
MIIIIII-SSCE0003701
1
Q
Okay.
2
3
4

5 A Yes.
6

7 A Yes.
8
9
10

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay.
13
14
15
16

17 BY
22
23
18
19
20
21

24 A Yes, yes.
25
26
17
-SSCE0003702
1 A Yes.

2 Q
Okay.
3
4

5 A Yes.

6 Q
Okay.

7 A No, no.
8
9
10
11
12

13 And this is -- did you number it?

14 111[2.

15
(Exhibit -2
identified.)

16 BY
17
18
19
20

21 A Yes.

22 Q
When did you see this before? Just over

23 the years or is this the first time?

24 A Over the years, yeah.

25
Q
Okay. Bear with me a minute, please.
26
18
SSCE0003703
and the last entries are in
is that correct?
A Yes.
Okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q
Those are the page numbers I'm referring

9 to when I say page numbers. It goes up through

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A Yes.

20

Okay.
21
22
23
24

25 A Yes.
26
19
1-SSCE0003704
2
3
4
5 A Yes.
6 Q
Okay.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 A Oh, in the middle. 1139, okay.
20
14 Q
Sometimes the check number is easier to
15 read than the actual line number.
16 A Yes.
17
18
19
20 Do you see that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q
Okay.
23
24
25
26
SSCE0003705
: That is fine.
21
A Yes.
2
3
4
5

Bear with me one moment, please.

6

All right. Let me just ask you a few

questions about this, and then I'm asking my
colleague to get some additional records for me.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
BY
MIE-SSCE0003706
1 A No.

2
Q
Okay. Let's walk through it a little bit

3 more, then. Earlier -- and again, we could go back

4 through other summary records that counsel has or it

5 would be easier just to accept my representations,

6 that in
7
8
9
10

11 A Yes.
12
13
14
15

16 Do you remember that approximate amount in

17

18 : We will accept that

19 representation as being shown on the exhibit.

20 : Thank you.

21 BY
22
23
24
25
26
22
SSCE0003707
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
23
A
16 Q
Okay.
17
18
19 A Yes.
20 Q
Okay.
21
22
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay.
25
26
1111=1111-SSCE0003708
A Not that I can recall.
Okay,
1

2 A No.

3 Q
No, you don't recall?

4 A I don't recall.

5 Q Okay. Fine.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A No.

20 (Exhibit 11[3 identified.)

21 BY

22 Q
I'm going to show you what has been marked

23 as III-3 for identification. And what I'd like you

24 to do, without me interrupting your thoughts, I'd

25
like you to go page by page through this document,
26
24
-SSCE0003709
1
2

3
(Witness reviewed the document.)

4 A Okay.

5 Q
Let me ask you just to turn to, if you

6 would, please -- and I wish these were numbered

7
pages, but they're not. But just turn to the page

8 that has the Are you there?

9 A Uh-huh.

10 Q
You can see that the columns have numeric

11
headings. If you look at column number 15, you see
12
13
14

15 A
16

17 Q
Okay.
18

19 A
20
21
22
23

24 Q
That would have probably been

25 A So --
26
25
-SSCE000371 0
1

2
THE WITNESS: Okay. Then that isn't who

3 this is. I don't know who that is, frankly.

4 BY

5 Q
Well, let me ask you this.
6
7

9 A Yes, yes.

10 Q
Does that help refresh your recollection

11 at all?

12 A The name honestly doesn't mean anything to

13 me.
14
15

16
THE WITNESS: No.
17
18

19 THE WITNESS:
20

21 BY
22
23
24
25
26
26
SSCE0003711
1
2

A
3
4
5

A Yes.
6
7

8 A

9
10
11

12 if I didn't.

13 BY
14
15

16 A
17

18 A
19

20 Q
Oh, my goodness. Okay.
21
22

23 A

24 Q Okay.
25
26
: I'm sorry, Nevada.
was going to correct you
-SSCE0003712
28
.1.-SSCE000371 3

1 A Yes.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22 A
23
24
25
26
A Okay.
A Yes.
A
Oh, probably 20 years approximately.
A Not exactly.
Q Okay.
29
1
2
3
4

A
6

A
8

A
10

11

Okay.
12

13

A I'm not sure.

14
15

16

THE WITNESS:
17
18

19

BY

20

Q Okay.
21

22

A
23

24

Q Okay.
25
26
-SSCE000371 4
1 A
2

3 Q
Okay.
4
5

6 A
7
8
9

10 A Yes, yes.
11

12 A
13

14 Q
I understand.
15

16 A I don't, no. But --

17

18 A
19
20

21 A I don't recall. I don't think so, but I

22 don't recall.
23

24 A As far as I know.

25
Q
Okay. And so you don't remember, as you
26
30
MIIIM-SSCE000371 5
1
2
3
4
sit here
A
today,
I don't, I'm sorry.
5 Q
Okay. No, that's fine. It's a long time
6 ago.
7 A Yes.
8
9
10
11
12 A Good question.
13
14
15
16 Q
Okay.
17 A Real frequently after that.
18
19
20 A
21
22 Q
Okay.
23
24
25 A No.
26
31
-SSCE000371 6
1
2

3 A Las Vegas is a big city.

4
Q
Yes.

5 A
6

7
Q
Well, let's --

8 A

9 Q
Why don't we talk about where -- I'm not

10 as -- I've only visited Vegas once in my life, and

11 I'm not familiar with all the neighborhoods, and it

12 would help us for the record if you could just give

13 us a sense of it.

14 A
15

16 A Uh-huh.
17
18

19
: That's right, I do remember

20 that.

21 BY

22 Q And Summerlin is on the south side of

23 Vegas or

24 A It's on --
25
26
32
SSCE000371 7
1
THE WITNESS: It's really west period,

2
west, because northwest is even further.

3
: Is even further.

4
THE WITNESS: Even further.

5 BY
6

7 A

8 Q
9

10 A
11

12 Q
okay.
13
14

15 A Now that there is an expressway, it's

16 probably 20 minutes.

17 Q
And before the expressway?

18 A Depends on the time of day. I would say

19 probably 40 minutes.

20 Q Okay.
21
22

23 A I don't recall.
24

25 A
26
33
111.11111-SSCE000371 8
1 Q
I'm sorry, as You don't

2 recall, okay.
3
4
5

6 A Yeah, I -- yes.
7

8 Q
Ultimately, yes.

9 A

10 Q
Okay.
11
12

13 A
14

15 A I would say yes.

16
17

18 A Yes. I don't recall how -- what exact

19 year, no, not at all.

20
21

22 A Yes.

23 Q
Okay.
24

25 A Yes.
26
34
IIIIM-SSCE000371 9
1
2
3

4 A I believe for work, if I recall.

5

6 A No.

7 Q Okay.
8
9

10 A Yes.
11
12
13

14 A No.
15
16

17 A No, no.

18 Q Okay.
19
20

21 A
22
23
24
25
26
IIMSSCE0003720
1
2
3
4

5 Q
Okay. And --

6 A
7
8
9
10

11 A
12

13
A Frequently. Frequently.

14 Q
How would you -- let's just stick with a

15
few years so we aren't talking about a great expanse

16 of time.
17
18

19 A

20 Q
Uh-huh.
21
22
23

24 A I don't recall.

25 Q
But you know it was frequently?
26
36
IIIIM-SSCE0003721
1 A Sure.

2 Q
Okay.
3

4 A
5
6
7
8

9 Q

10 A No, not often.

11
12
13
14
15

16 A
17
18
19

20 A Uh-huh, yes.

21 Q
Yes, okay.
22
23
24

25 A
26
37
1111M-SSCE0003722
1
2

3 Q
Okay.
4
5

6 A Yes.

7 Q
Okay.
8
9
10

11 A That's a good question.

12
13
14
15
16
17

18 A It was just general.

19

20 A Yeah. Yes, I would say that.

21

22 Q
Okay.
23
24

25 A No.
26
38
-SSCE0003723
39
1
2 A No.
3
4
5
6 A No.
7 Q
Okay.
8
9 A No.
10 Q
Did you -- yes or no?
11 A No.
12 Q
Okay.
13
14 A What do you mean?
15
16
17 A
18
19
20

A
21

Q Okay.
22
23

A
24
25

A
26
-SSCE0003724
15 good friend?
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
yeah.
A
A lot of them but -- I could go on and on,
Q All right.
A Yes.
1

2 Q
That's what I do too, so if that helps,

3 please do it.

4 A Yeah.
5

6 A
7

8 A
9
10
11

12 A
13

14 Q
Anyone else you'd characterize as a very
40
-SSCE0003725
1
2
3 A No.
4
5
6 A No.
7
8
9
10
11
12 A No.
13 Q
-- in life?
14 A No.
15 Q Okay.
16
17 A No.
18 Q
19 A I don't recall the name, no.
20 Q Okay.
21
22 A No, I don't recall that.
23 Q Okay.
24
25
26
41
111111MSSCE0003726
which -- strike that.
A I -- well, I mean, say that again.
1
2
3

4 A No.

5 Q
Okay. Did you recall a situation in
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

14 Clarify that.

15

: The question was at the end

16 of --

17 BY

18 Q
19
20
21

22 A I don't recall the exact date, no.

23 Q
Okay.
24

25 A
26
42
MIIIISSCE0003727
1
2
3
4
5

6 A Yes, yes.

7 Q Okay.
8
9
10

11 A
12
13

14 Q All right.
15
16
17
18

19 A Yes.
20
21
22

23 A I don't recall the times.

24
25
26
43
IIM-SSCE0003728
1 Q
Well, let's try to do it by events, then.
2
3

4 A
5
7
8
9

10 A Yes.

11 Q
Okay.
12

13 A Yes.

14 Q
And fairly regular conversations

15 thereafter?

16 A Yes.

17 Q
Okay.
18

19 A No.
20
21
22

23 A No.
24
25
26
44
1111.1111-SSCE0003729
1 A No.

2
Q
Okay.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

10 A
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21 A Exactly.
22

23 A Exactly.
24

25 A Yes.
26
45
-SSCE0003730
1
2
3

4 A Well, at some point, yes, of course.

5
6

7 A No, I did not know that.

8
9

10 A
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

23 A You know, I think that was pretty obvious

24 that --

25
: What did you know? Listen
26
46
1.11.II-SSCE0003731
1 to the question.
2 THE WITNESS:
3
4
5 BY
6
7
8

A Yes.

10

Q
Okay.
11

12

A Yes.
13
14

15

A I don't recall.
16
47
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
-SSCE0003732
1
2
3
4 A
5
6 Q
7
8 A
9
10 Q
11
12
13 A
14 Q
15
16 A
17
18
19 Q
Okay.
20
21 A Yes.
22 Q
Okay. 111.111.1.1.1.1111.11.
23
24
25
26
MI-SSCE0003733
48
A No.
Okay.
A No, no.
A No, I did not know that.
A I never even considered that.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 A I don't recall ever having a conversation
14 like that, no.
15 Q
With anybody?
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
49
1
2
3
4
5
6
50
Mill-SSCE0003735
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

8 A Absolutely.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

23 4
24

25
A Exactly. Exactly.
26
A As far as personal? Is that what
you're --
Q
Personal, right.
4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
Correct.
A
You know, and you're not comfortable
talking to just anybody about something like this
anyway.
A
Never got into that level of discussion,
okay.
51
MIIMI-SSCE0003736
A Uh-huh.
Q Yes?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
1
2

A Not that I recall.

3

Okay. And I understand that -- changing

4

the subject now.

5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14 A No.
15 Q
Okay.
16
17 A No, I did not know that.
18
19
20
21 A Never, no, never.
22
23 A We never --
24
25 A No, never.
26
52
IIIMII-SSCE0003737
2
3
4 A
5
6
7
8 A
9 Q Okay.
10
11
12 A Yes.
13
14 A
15
16
17 A Yes.
18
Q Okay.
19
20
21
22
23 A No.
24 Q
You don't think that's possible?
25 A No.
26
53
-SSCE0003738
4
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q Okay.
7
8
9 A Yes.
2
3
10 Q Okay.
11
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that correct?
14
15 A Both.
16 Q Okay.
17
18
19
20

A Yes.
21 Q
22
23 A Yes.
24 Q
25
26
=III-SSCE0003739
10
11
12
13
14 A
15
16
17 A
I don't -- well, let's see.
18
19
Q Now they are?
20
A Now. Now.
21
22
23 A Yes.
24
25
A Uh-huh.
26
Okay.
55
1

A
2
3

Q Okay.
4

A
6

A
7
8
9

A
11.111.-SSCE0003740
1 Q Yes?

2 A
3
4
A Yes.

6
Q Okay.
7

8 A No.
No.

9 Q Okay.

10 A Yes.
11

12 A No.
13
14

15 A No.

16 Q Okay.
17
18

19 A
20
21
22
23 A
You know, I don't recall. I'm sorry, it's
24 too long ago.
25 Q
Would there -- is there anything that
26
56
1111.11-SSCE0003741
A
Right now I can't -- I'll tell you, I
can't recall. I don't know.
Okay. Well, then let's do this.

1
could refresh your recollection on that?
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

10
A Uh-huh.

11

You have to say yes.

12 A

Yes.

13

And I think if we have the check register

14
handy, we have -- in
-- on page 4, we've

15
discussed this -- we've looked at this earlier.

16 shows that on
17

18
This is check number 1139.
19 A Correct.
20 Q
21
22
23
24
25
26
57
-SSCE0003742
1 A No, not that I recall.
2 Q
Okay.
3
4
5 A Exactly.
6
7
8

Okay.
9
10
11
12 A No.
13
14
15
16 Q
Right, understood.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

As -- as well as I can recall, yes.

25
Q Okay.
26
58
-SSCE0003743
1

2 A Pardon me?
3

4 A Uh-huh.

5
Q Yes.
6
7
8
9
10

11
BY 1111111111

12 Q Right.
13

14
BY
15
16
17

18 BY
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A No, I -- no, I -- no. I'll say no.
Q Okay. All right.
59
-SSCE0003744
A I couldn't be specific.
All right.
A I'm not aware of any of that.
1
2

3 A Not that I recall, let's just say.

4 Q All right.
5
6

7 A
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22 A Are you asking me if I was aware of it at

23 the time?

24 Q At the time.

25 A No.
26
60
-SSCE0003745
1 Okay.
2
3
4 A Yes.
5
6
7 A Just -- actually, just recently.
8 Q Within the last couple of days?
9 A And -- I don't know how many days it's
10 been, but just recently, yes.
11 Q Okay.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 A No.
22
23
24 A
25
26
EIM-SSCE0003746
1

2 A

3 Q
4
5

6 A Yes, yes.

7 Q
8
9

10 A

11 Q
12

13 A
14

15 Q
Okay.
16
17

18 A No.

19 Q
Not at the time, but have you since --

20 A Not at the time.

21 Q
Have you since become aware of it?

22 A Yes.

23 Q
24

25 A No.
26
62
-SSCE0003747
1
Q
2
3
4

5 A No.

6 Q
Are you aware of that now or you've never

7 been aware of that?

8 A
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17

18 A
19
20

21 Q Okay. And I'm not asserting that they

22 .
actually happened. I'm just -- these are

23 assertions.

24 A Yes.
25
26
63
MIIIII-SSCE0003748
64
1
2

A I was not aware of it at the time.

4 Q Okay. Again, when did you first become

5 aware of this?
A
7
8
9
10
11

12 A Just recently.

13 Q
Just recently?

14 A Just recently.

15 Q
And what is just recently? In the past

16 few days?

17 A
I would say in the past couple of weeks.

18 Q
Okay.
19
20
21

22 A

23 Q
Okay.

24 A

25 Q
Okay.
26
SSCE0003749
1
2

3 A No.

4 Q
5
6
7
8
9

10 A No.
Okay.
65
11 Q
Okay. So I'm going to -- since the answer
12
to that is no,
13
14
15
16
A No.
17 Q
Bear with me for a moment, please.
18
(Exhibit 111-4 identified.)
19
BY
20 Q
I'm going to show you what has been marked
21
as 1114 for identification and ask you to take your
22
time in reading that document, please.
23
(Witness reviewed the document.)
24
Before I ask you any questions about this
25
what I would like to do is
*26
111.11-SSCE0003750
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
show you some other exhibits first.
A Okay.
(Exhibit 1111-6 identified.)
BY
I'm going to show you what has been marked
III-6 for identification.
If you can read the handwriting, I'd ask
you to read it.
66
1.11.1-SSCE0003751
1
2
3 A No.
4
5
6
7
Are you familiar with a company called
8 November Inc.?
9 A No.
10 Q All right.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 A
Not that I recall, no.
24
25
26
67
IIMESSCE0003752
1 A At thetime?No.
2
4
5 A Yes.
68
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
-SSCE0003753
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 A What -- what areyou asking me?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
69
-SSCE0003754
1

A So you're asking me if I knew that?

2
3
4
5

6 A Absolutely not.

7 Q
Okay. Then I'm going to ask you to look

8 at a second exhibit marked IVfor identification.

9
(Exhibit 11-7 identified.)

10
THE WITNESS:
11
12

13
(Witness reviewed the document.)

14
BY

15
Q
1111111 this is a long document. I think

16
it is wise for you to read the entire document. I'm

17
only going to be reading, though, from a few

18 paragraphs.

19 A Sure.

20
(Witness reviewed the document.)

21
(Recess.)

22
BY

23
Q Okay. II-7
24
25
26
-SSCE0003755
1
2
3
4
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Do you recall
reading that paragraph?
24 A Yes.
25 Q
Okay.
26
71
-SSCE0003756
72
-SSCE0003757
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17 A
18
19 A Okay.
20
21
22
23
24 A Yes.
25
26
No.
Okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
Q Okay.
A
73
-SSCE0003758
1
Q
Understood.

2 A
3

4 Q
I understand. Would you like to take a

5
break right now? We're almost over, but I think it

6 would be --

7 A That's all right, go ahead.

Are you sure? Okay.
9
10
11
12
13
14

15 A No, I don't recall that.

16 Q
Do you believe it may have happened? 1111
17
18
19
20

21 A
I -- I can't say. I don't -- I don't

22 know.

23 Q
Now I'd like you to go back to the

24
I handed you a little while ago, -4.

25 A Yes.
26
74
SSCE0003759
1 Q Okay. And actually, I'm sorry, I've

2 jumped ahead just in an effort to expedite this.

3
Put that aside for a moment, please, and I'm going

4 to show you one more exhibit.

5 (Exhibit 1 . 8 identified.)

6 BY

7 Q
And this is III-8 for identification.

8
Sorry for the informality of shoving papers across

9 the table, but it's effective.

10
(Witness reviewed the document.)

11
Are you finished reading this?

12 A (No verbal response.)

13 Q
Okay.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
75
III.-SSCE0003760
1
2
3
4
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Does that refresh your recollection at
19 all?
20 A If -- if -- if this even happened, I'm not
21
aware of it. If this conversation took place, I'm
22 not aware of it.
23 Q
Okay. Thank you.
24
25
26
77
MII-SSCE0003762
A
Am I aware, did you say, that they --
1
2 A Which one, this?
3
4
: You looked at that earlier
5 today.
6

THE WITNESS: I looked at it, yeah.

7

: During these proceedings.

8
BY
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19 A
Well, I'm not sure how to answer that.
20
21
22
23
24
25 A
26
78
IIIMII-SSCE0003763
1
2 Q
Okay.
3
4 A Sure.
5 Q
6
7 A Yes.
8
9
10
11
12
A By whom?
13 Q
By whomever.
14
15
A Uh -huh.
16
Yes? You have to say yes or no.
17
18
19
20
21
22 A Oh, okay.
23 Q
Okay?
24 A Uh-huh, yes.
25
26
79
SSCE0003764
1
2
3
4
A Yes.
5 A
I guess because I probably was asked to do
6 it.
7
Q
And that's what I'm trying to get you to
8 remember,
the circumstances surrounding that.
9 A Okay.
10 Q
Do you know who asked you to do it?
11 A No, I don't recall.
12
13
14
15 A No.
16
17
18
19 A No.
20
21
22 A I -- I don't recall, I'm sorry.
23
24
25
A Not that I remember.
26
80
-SSCE0003765
1 Q
Okay.
2

3 A No.
4
5
6
A Not that I recall, so --

8 Q
Do you remember how you -- go ahead, I'm

9
sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

10 A

11
don't -- I honestly don't remember at the time.

12
It's been too long ago.

13 Q
I understand.
14

15 A Yes.

16 Q
17

18 A Yes.
19

20 A Yes.
21 Q
Okay.
22
23
24
25
Is that a true statement?
26
81
NIMISSCE0003766
1 A Pardon me?

2 Q Is that a true statement?

A
4

5 Q
No.

6
: No, no.

BY
8
9
10
11

12 A Yes.

13 Q
That is a true statement?

14 A
15

16 Q
17

18 A
19
20
21
22
23 A
24
25 Q
I see.
26
82
SSCE0003767
83
-SSCE0003768
1 A And, you know.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 A
24
25 Q Okay.
26
Q All right.
Q All right.
1

2 A Yes, yes.
3
4
5
6

7 A
8
9

10 Q
Okay.
11
12

13
A No.
14

15 A No.
16
17

18 A
Doesn't mean anything to me.
19 Q Okay.
20
21
22
23 A
24
25
26
84
11.1-SSCE0003769
1
2
3
4 A Yeah, I don't recall.
5 Q
6
7
8 A
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 A
17
18
19
20
21
: Listen to the question.
22
THE WITNESS: What -- what do you want to
23 know exactly?
24 BY
25 Q
Well --
26
85
-SSCE0003770
1 A
2
3
4

5 A
6
7
8

9 A
10
11
12

13 A
14
15
16

17 A Yes.
18

19 A Yes.
20

21 A
22
23
24

25
A Absolutely.
26
86
MM-SSCE0003771
1
2 A Yes.
3
4
5 A
6
7
8
9 A
10
11
12
13
14
A Sometimes.
15
16
17
18
19 A
20
21
22
23
24
A Uh-huh.
25 Q
Yes?
26
87
-SSCE0003772
1 A Yes.

2 Q
Okay.
3

4 A Sometimes.

5 Q
All right.
6
7
8
9
10

11 A Not that I recall.

12 Q
Okay. And just one more exhibit.

13
(Exhibit 11111 identified.)

14
BY

15 Q
I'm going to show you 11[11.
16
17
18
19
20

21 A Oh, okay.
22
23
24

25 A No.
26
88
MIRSSCE0003773
THE WITNESS:
1
2
3
4

A It's possible, but I don't recall.

5
6
7
9
10
11
If we could, I'd like to just
12
take about a 10-minute break now and we'll see
13
whether we have any additional questions.
14
: Fine.
15
(Recess.)
16 BY
17 Q
is there anything further
18
that you think that the committee should know that
19
you could share with the committee that would help
20
the committee in its current investigation, or
21
anything further you wish to say at this point?
22 A
I don't know that I probably enlightened
23
you any more than what you -- what you know here.
24 Probably --
25
: That's fine.
26
89
MIIIIM-SSCE0003774
1
2
3
4
5
THE WITNESS:

6
: I understand.

7
THE WITNESS: Sorry.

8
: Thank you very much for coming

9
today. Appreciate it. We know it's an

10
inconvenience, and we appreciate your coming and

11 testifying.

12
THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13
Have you made arrangements

14
with respect to reviewing? You're all set?

15
Oh, we'll be here at 9:00 in

16
the morning. We'll all three be here and obviously

17
we'll want them to view them separately.

18
We'll set you up.

19
(Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the deposition

20 was concluded.)
21
22
23
24
25
MM-SSCE0003775
1
I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read this

2
transcript of my deposition and that this transcript

3
accurately states the testimony given by me, with

4
the changes or corrections, if any, as noted.
5
6

7
X
8
9
10

11
Subscribed and sworn to before me this
day of

12
, 20
13
14
15

16
X

17
Notary Public
18
19
20
21 My commission expires:
22
23
24
25
91
EMSSCE0003776
1
2

3 WITNESS
4

5 by
6
7
8
9
10

11 Exhibit

12 Exhibit

13 Exhibit

14 Exhibit

15 Exhibit

16 Exhibit

17 Exhibit

18 Exhibit
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CONTENTS
EXHIBITS
1 identified 10
2 identified 18
3. identified 24
4 identified 65.
6 identified 66
7 identified 70
8 identified 75
11 identified 88
92
EXHIBIT NUMBER
EXAMINATION
5
IDENTIFIED
-SSCE0003777