Jacques Rancire: Literature, Politics, Aesthetics: Approaches to Democratic Disagreement

Author(s): Solange Gunoun, James H. Kavanagh and Roxanne Lapidus

Source: SubStance, Vol. 29, No. 2, Issue 92 (2000), pp. 3-24
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JacquesRancikre:
Politics,Aesthetics:
Literature,
Approachesto DemocraticDisagreement
interviewed
by
SolangeGuinounandJamesH. Kavanagh
de pensee,il fautque
"Pourque l'invitation
produisequelqueeffet
misentente
trouvesonpointde m6sentente."-La
la rencontre
(12)
ofthought,
the
toproducesomeeffect
[Inorderfortheinvitation
encounter
mustfinditspointofdisagreement.]

The Principlesof Equality,Educationand Democracy

In readingyourwork,one has theimpressionthatyou have had a
SG
kind of revelationor "nuitde Pascal" in encounteringthatextraordinary
to whomyou have devoted
nineteenth-century
pedagogue,JosephJacotot,
a book,Le maftre
(1987).
ignorant
an essentialencounterfor
JR Itwas nota "nuitde Pascal,"butcertainly
and
the
of
question politics
re-asking
equality.In fact,JosephJacotot
proposed,inan incredibly
provocative
way,tworadicalprinciplesthatplaced
the pedagogical paradigm alongside the progressivistlogic generally
identifiedwithdemocracy.Firstofall, equalityis not a goal to be attained.
The progressivists
who proclaimequalityas theend resultof a processof
reducinginequalities,of educatingthemasses,etc.,reproducethelogic of
theteacherwho assureshispowerbybeingin chargeofthegap he claimsto
bridgebetweenignoranceand knowledge.Equalitymustbe seen as a point
Wemustassumethatall intelligences
ofdeparture,and notas a destination.
raiseda radical
areequal, and workunderthisassumption.Butalso,Jacotot
For
to
democratic
could
him,
politics.
equality
provocation
only be
intellectualequality among individuals. It could never have a social
Anyattemptto realizeitsociallyled to itsloss. It seemed to me
consistency.
thateveryformof egalitarianpoliticswas confronted
by thischallenge:to
affirm
equalityas an axiom,as an assumption,and notas a goal. Butalso to
refusea partitionbetween intellectualequalityand social inequality;to
believe thateven if egalitarianassumptionsare alien to social logic and
#92,2000
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JacquesRancibre

and thatpolitics
aggregation,theycan be affirmedtheretransgressively,
consistsofthisveryconfrontation.
Whatstrikesme is theway thishas allowed you to intervenein the
conjunctionin the1980s,on theever-burning
politico-socialist
questionsof
tocarveouta placeforyourself
educationand teachinginFrance,and thereby
formsof "progressivism."
vis-a-visthetwo then-current
SG

The Frenchdebateoverdemocraticschoolingwas at that time-and

JR
stillis-monopolized by two positions.On theone hand, the sociological
tendency,inspired by Bourdieu, was calling into question formsof
knowledgeadaptedtoan audienceofyoung"heirs."Itproposed
transmitting
to reduce scholasticinequalityby adaptingthe styleof the schools to the
needs and stylesof underprivilegedpopulations.On the otherhand we
saw the developmentof theso-called"republican"thesis,summarizedin
ofknowledge
Jean-ClaudeMilner'sDe l'cole, whichmade theuniversality
and itsmode ofdiffusion
theroyalroadto democratization,
and denounced
teachersand sociologistsas destroyers
ofrepublicanschools.Jacotot'sideas
about intellectualemancipationplaced back-to-backthese two positions,
which based equality eitheron the universalityof knowledge and the
teacher'srole,or on a "science"ofthesocial arrangement
fortransmitting
knowledge.

SG
One of the strikingaspects of yourwork is thatit presentsboth a
seriesofshiftsfromone disciplineto another,
and therecurring
questforan
objectthatwill cutacrossall thesedisciplines.Thus,you have passed from
"the poetics of knowledge" in history,to literarycriticismwith your
of Mallarm6'swork,and finallyto theconceptof literature,
interpretation
and now you are concerned,amongotherthings,with"theaestheticidea"
and withcinema.Whileall thetimepursuing,fromone terrainto theother,
an objectthatrelatesto politics,as can be seen by mostofyoursubtitles:La
mesentente.
et politique(1995),Mallarm6.La politiquede la sirene
Philosophie
La
chair
des
mots.
(1996),
(1998). Withoutmentioning
Politiquesde l'ecriture
Auxbordsdupolitique,
publishedin 1990,withthenew,completelyreworked
editionappearingin 1998.
JR The questionof politicsand the methodof my "shifts"are closely
linkedtoeachother.Forme,thepoliticalalwayscomesintoplayin questions
of divisionsand boundaries.I chose thetitleLa nuitdesproletaires
formy
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Interview

bookon theemancipation
oftheworkerinnineteenth-century
Francebecause
at theheartofthisemancipationwas thebreakingofthenaturaldivisionof
timethatdictatedthatworkersmustworkby day and sleep by nightand
have no timeleftoverforthinking.
The workers'emancipationcame about
throughworkerswho decidedto devotetheirnightsto otheractivitiesthan
sleep, to give themselvesthistimethatdid notbelong to themin orderto
enterintoa worldofwritingand thinking
thatwas not"theirs."To takethis
intoaccount,I needed to breaktheboundarythatis supposed to separate
genres-history,philosophy,literature,
politicalscience.In principle,my
In otherwords,theirtextswere read
workersbelongedto "social history."
as documentsexpressingthe conditionof workers,popular culture,etc.I
decidedtoreadthemin a different
and philosophicaltexts.
way-as literary
Whereotherswere attempting
to read aboutworkers'problemsexpressed
in thelanguage ofthepeople,I saw,on theotherhand,a struggleto cross
thebarrierbetweenlanguagesand worlds,tovindicateaccesstothecommon
As opposed to culturalism,
languageand tothediscourseon thecommunity.
whichsoughttorestorea "popularculture,"I valorizedtheattitudeofthose
workerswho challenged thatso-called "popular culture"and made an
attemptto appropriateanother'sculture(i.e. thatofthe"iterate").The idea
of a "poetics of knowledge" thatwould cut across all disciplines thus
betweensubjectand method.La nuitdes
expressesa veryclose relationship
was a "political"book in thatit ignoredthe divisionbetween
proletaires
"scientific"
and "literary"
orbetween"social" and "ideological,"in orderto
takeintoaccountthestruggle
bywhichtheproletariat
soughttoreappropriate
forthemselvesa commonlanguagethathad been appropriatedby others,
and to affirm
theassumptionofequality.
transgressively
SG

All ofwhichled you to redefinetheroleof "spokespersons."

In traditionallogic,the "spokesperson"is theone who expressthe

JR
that
thought,feeling,and way oflifeofa group.I showed,on thecontrary,
a spokespersonis firstofall thepersonwho breaksthislogicofexpression,
theone who putswordsintocirculation-thatis,who uprootswordsfrom
theirassigned mode of speakingor ofbeing,accordingto whichworkers
shouldspeakin "workers'style"and themassesshouldexpressthemselves
in "popularculture."The basic problemwas to show thatmanyefforts
that
believethey"respectothers'differences"
"their"
into
by entering
language
and "their"ways ofthinking,
onlyrepeatPlato'sadage thatone shouldstay
in his/herplace and do his/herown thing.
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JacquesRanciere

to the
JHK Obviouslythebasis ofyourworkis a verystrongcommitment
want
to
from
and
a
of
republican
distinguishyourself
concept equality, you
notionof equality.But it seems to me thatany social sense of equalityis
and determinedin some way.Wouldyou agreeto that?
alreadystructured
sense ofequality?
Or are you posinga non-structured
JR Ifequalityis axiomatic,a given,it is clearthatthisaxiom is entirely
undeterminedin its principle-thatit is anteriorto the constitutionof a
determinedpoliticalfield,sinceitmakesthelatterpossiblein thefirstplace.
This being said, the egalitarianaxiom definesthe practices,the modes of
thatare themselvesalways determinedby a
expressionand manifestation
and
state
of
particular
inequality
by thepotentialforequality.
idea? That "all men are createdequal,"
JHK Isn't thatan Enlightenment
to
Aren't
then
back
withan eighteenth-century
prior politics.
republican
you
notionofequality?
JR No. Firstof all because Enlightenment
thoughtdoes notin anyway
an
of
From
this
imply assumption equality.
pointofview,theDeclarationof
the Rightsof Man exceeds Enlightenment
philosophy.It also "qualifies"
of
in
equality rightsby "difference talent." And most important,the
as is political
egalitarianaxiomis notbased on a common,naturalattribute,
"Nature"
is
in
two.
The
of
philosophy.
split
equality speaking beings
intervenesas an addition,as a breakwiththenaturallaws ofthegravitation
of social bodies. Finally,the egalitarianaxiom definesthe potentialfor
to
egalitarianpracticescarriedoutby subjects,and nottherightsattributed
individualsand populations,withinstitutions
in
the
"reduction"
specializing
ofthedistancebetweenrightand fact.
The Concept of Literatureand the Change in Paradigm:
The Disagreementsof LiteraryCriticism
SG
Let's talk about the changein paradigmyou detectin the passage
from"Belles Lettres" to "literature,"in the particularsense that you
understandthelatter.Whatstruckme,in readingLa parolemuette.
Essaissur
lescontradictions
de la littirature
(1998),is thesomewhathastyway in which
you describeBelles Lettresas completelyconcernedwitha representative
systemof "the art of writing,"basing your conclusions,forexample,on
Boileau, Huet, Voltaire,and Batteux,or on historiansand poeticiansof
literature
suchas MarcFumaroliand GerardGenette,without
contemporary
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Interview

your personally grapplingwith textswrittenduring this long period.

Whereaselsewhere,you propose verycomplexand detailed analyses of
textsto illustrateyourconceptof literature.
post-Revolutionary
Why this
in treatment,
difference
which resultsin two more or less homogeneous
ensembles-Belles Lettreson the one hand, and literatureon the otherand a changeinparadigmbetweenthetwo,butwhichdoes notseemwilling
orable totakeintoaccountthecomplexity
oftheBellesLettresrepresentative
it
in
system,to put
yourterms?
as an establishedsystemof
JR Firstof all, I have approachedliterature
the artof writing,whichbecame consolidatedin thenineteenthcentury.
I
have shownhow itsparadigmsare constituted
in oppositionto thekindof
order theydestroyed-the Belles Lettresparadigms. The "differencein
treatment"
is justifiednotonlybymyspecificsubject(literature
as a system
ofspecificthought,
notas a collectionofworks),butalso by thefactthatthe
Belles Lettresparadigmswere,forHugo, Balzac or Flaubert,summarized
in thesystematization
Frenchtheoreticians,
as
givenby eighteenth-century
a culminationof the systemoriginatingin Aristotle'sPoetics.I compared
two systemsforidentifying
theartofwriting,
and nottwo ways ofwriting
in twodifferent
eras.The representative
systemis characterized
by thevery
between
the
rules
the
of
and
themultitudeofwritingsthat
gap
"poeticarts"
do notobeythem.On theotherhand,literature
no longerrecognizes"rules
ofart"orboundaries.Thus thenew paradigmmustbe soughtin theworks
themselves.Clearly,a mass of earlierwritingsand writingpracticeswere
outside or on the marginsof the Belles Lettressystem.And the Age of
Romanticism
eithervindicatedtheauthors,epochsand formsthathad been
excludedbyBellesLettres(especiallythenovel,thatgenrewithouta genre),
or else itreinventeda "classicism"ofitsown. Whenwe comparea baroque
of Corneilleor Racine to Voltaire'sreadingof them,we are
interpretation
able to do so withinthehistoricization
thatbelongsto theage ofliterature.
withno relationto the
JHK You proposeanotherconceptionofliterature
art of writing,when you speak of membersof the proletariatseekingto
affirm
themselvesas speakingsubjectsbyappropriating
a commonlanguage
others.
alreadyappropriatedby
I call "literarity"
thisstatusofthewrittenword thatcirculates
JR
withouta legitimating
systemdefiningthe relationsbetween the word's
emitterand receiver.I'm referring
hereto Plato's oppositionbetweenthe
"living" word of the teachersown into the soul of the disciple,and the
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JacquesRanciere

"mute"word,whichgoeshitherand yonwithoutknowingtowhom
written,
it should or should notspeak. Forme,theword "literarity"
is emptyifone
takesthisto mean "ownership"bya specificlanguage,conferring
on textsa
famous
that
has
no
There
"literary"
quality(the
"intransitivity"
consistency).
is no directrelationship
betweenliterature
as a politicalsystemofcirculating
words and literatureas an historicalsystemof the art of writing.On the
thereis a strongtensionbetweenthetwo. A recurringthemeof
contrary,
novels is thewoe ofthepersonhavinghad themisfortune
to read novels.
I can imaginehow youruse oftheword "literarity"
SG
(thatpropensity
oftheinventiveliterary
animalthatwe all are)can cause misunderstandings
withtheidenticalbut unrelatedterm("literarity")
so muchin vogue in the
of
heyday literary
especiallyamongthosewho
theory--misunderstandings
have been debatingthesethingsformorethan40 years.It's interesting
to
note thatin Le Mondethe same articlereviewedyourbooks and Antoine
Compagnon's Le demonde la thdorie(Seuil, 1998), which proposes an
assessmentofliterary
It's clearto me thatyourLa parolemuette.
Essai
theory.
surlescontradictions
dela littgrature
been inscribedin this
has,paradoxically,
existentialhorizon,withoutspeakingdirectlyabout literarytheory,
butby
solicitingit constantlyby termsand notionsthatare highlycodifiedand
etc.
dated,like "literarity,"
"significance,"
"symbolicstructuration,"
JR I haven't been much involved in "literarytheory."What I call
is linkedtoa problemofsymbolicpartitioning
thatis mucholder
"literarity"
and larger,and concernswhatI call thepartitionofthesensible/perceptible
ofwords,time,space. Whatled me
[lepartagedu sensible]:'thedistribution
therewas notliterary
It'sthequestionofthepartition
theoryofthe1960s-70s.
withinbothlanguageand thought,as I had feltitwhileworkingon La nuit
desproletaires,
especiallyin theworkers'accounts-in factfictionalized-of
theirdiscoveryoftheworldofwritingvia foodwrappersor otherscrapsof
paper.
SG
You areproposingtwomodesofthefictive-a mimetic-fictive,
which
was thebasis of theBelles Lettressystem,accordingto you-and a fictive
thatbelongsto thesystemofliterature
"as a processofthehumanspirit,"as
you put it,quotingMallarm6.Do you meanthatBellesLetterscannotentail
anothermodeoffiction
thatwouldco-existwithfiction-imitation?
(invention)
Forexample,VincentDescombesrethought
"classical"writers'imitationof
theAncientsas a new principleallowingartto detachitselffromquestions
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Interview

of truthand fromreligion,thus paradoxicallymaking les Anciensmore

to Habermas)and stressingthe roleof
modernthanlesModernes(contrary
classicalwritersin thearrivalof themodernconceptionof literature.
And
wrote
that
"The
like
all
of
fields
of
recentlyyou
politics art,
knowledge,
constructs'fictions'-i.e. materialreorganizations
of signs and images,of
relationsbetweenwhatone sees and whatone says,betweenwhatone does
and whatone can do" (Le partagedusensible).
Is thisvalid forall art,notjust
thatofpost-1800?
It'sart'srepresentative
a centralconcept.
JR
systemthathas made fiction
There's no opposition between "imitation" and "invention." Art's
representativesystemis not a systemof copies, but of fiction,of "the
organizationof actions" that Aristotletalks about. It's the concept that
liberatesart fromquestions of truth,and fromPlato's condemnationof
simulacra.On theotherhand,the"generalbentofthehumanspirit"separates
theidea of"fiction"
fromthatof"theorganization
ofactions"orfromhistory.
Fictionbecomes a procedureof organizingsigns and images,commonto
factualaccountsand to fiction,to "documentary"filmsand to filmsthat
tellsa story.Butthisorganizationofsignsis not"outsidethetruth."When
fictionbecomesa "generalbentofthehumanspirit,"itis once again under
the rule of truth.This is essentiallywhat Flaubertsays: if a sentencedoes
notringtrue,it'sbecause theidea is false.
SG
AlthoughI completelyagreewithyourrestrainedand well-founded
definition
of "literature,"
I feelthatas a literarycritic,I have been put in a
double-bind.On theone hand,yourdiscourseseems to directlysolicitthe
interestofliterarycritics,by proposingalternateways to thinkabout their
activities,outside the constraintsand protocolsof the usual reading of
literature
as a social and learnedinstitution.
On theotherhand,you tellus
thatour fieldof activityas such doesn't interestyou. The criticalreader
realizesthatnotonlyhas he misunderstood
whatyou meantto say,butthat
is
not
even
addressed
him.
to
Whichbegs thequestionofthe
yourmessage
audience foryourtextsand yourstyle.Does literature
onlyinterestyou as
an objectconceivedforand addressedto philosophers?
JR For me, thereis no line of demarcationbetween the questions of
philosophersand those of "literarycritics."Clearly,I don't recognizea
separate domain forliterarycriticismand its "methods."Literatureand
investigationsinto literaturebelong to everyone.And this investigation
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10

JacquesRanciere

thoseconcerningthe
necessarilybringstogethertwokindsofinterrogation:
a
that
enable
us
to
historical
procedures
contemplate specific
systemofthe
artofwriting,and thosethatanalyze theformsthemselvesof thisart.For
me, Hegel's theorizationof Romanticismand Flaubert's correctionof
And I have spent more
sentencesspringfroman identicalinterrogation.
timereadingwritersthanphilosophers.
SG

I'm certainly
notquestioning
thisaspectofyourwork,northecomplex
of
texts
that
readings post-1789
you have done. I'm simplywonderingifthe
same thingcan be done withpre-1800texts.
tothewritings
JR I thinkso. Butit'snota matterofmoreorless attention
ofthisor thatera. "Literature"
beingthesystemoftheartofwritingthatno
longeracknowledgestherulesofthatart,itsimplicitnormsmustbe sought
in thedetailofthetexts.VoltairecomparedwhatCorneilledid withwhathe
"shoulddo." He allows us tomeasure,in one directionoranother,
theextent
ofCorneille'sdeparturefroma system'snorm.And Corneillehimselfpoints
outand justifiesthesedepartures.ForBalzac,FlaubertorMallarm6,"norm"
and "departure" are internalto a writingprocess. Auto-correction
has
critical
Our
critical
of
methods
close
a
are
replaced
adjudication.
reading
continuationof this self-editing.Today we read Montaigne or Racine
Likewise,
accordingtomodesofattention
forgedin theAgeofRomanticism.
an arthistorianof theschool of Louis Marinwill look at a Titianin a way
thatis informedby theImpressionists,
theFauves,or by abstractart.
SG

It is nonethelessremarkableto see how thispositionhas put you in

agreementwith the most traditionalliterarycritics,with those who are
politicallymore to the Right- like Marc Fumaroli,forexample-whose
impossibledream,sharedby many,is to getridoftheliterary
theoryofthe
last 40 years.Even thoughyourreasonsforbringingliterarytheoryto an
theeffects
remainthesame. Doesn't thisstrikeyou as
impasseare different,
problematic?
awareofthewish,hereand elsewhere,tomake a tabula
JR I am certainly
rasaofthetheoretical
and practicalupheavalsofthe1960s,and,forexample,
to restorea "humanism"in tune with the old art of rhetoric,
just as one
wants to restorethe criteriaof taste, and of pleasure, the wisdom of
enlightenedsovereignsand counselors,etc. But forme, separatingthe
historicalsystemsofwritingdoes notmeanputtingeach personin hisplace
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Interview

11

and time. In any case, the literarysystem of writing is a system of

of past works,whichblurs any pretensionto establisha
reappropriation
of appreciationand interpretation.
But ifliterarytheory
method
legitimate
out
the
of
its
pulled
pseudo-obviousness, it then leftit
literaryobject
oscillatingbetweenan essentialismthatexternalizesliterature
indefinitely
and a historicism
based on undetectablelinguisticaffiliations
(intransitivity)
thatoperatesan equally undetectableconnectionbetweenthe artisticand
thepolitical--basedon tautologicalnotionslike"modernity"
oron confused
whichmixestogethertendifferent
notionslike"critiqueofrepresentation,"
problems(fromparlimentary
democracytonon-figurative
painting,byway
of psychoanalysis, critique of the cogito, religious interdiction of
and theunrepresentability
ofthedeathcamps).
representation,
The Politics,Aesthetics,and Logic of Disagreement
SG

Let's move on to the question of individual and collective

thatyouanalyzein severaltexts,inan attempttounderstand
subjectification
therelationsyou establishbetweenliterature,
aestheticsand politics,all of
whichyou have redefined.In La misentente
(1995) you proposed splitting
thecurrentnotionofthepoliticalinto"police" and "politics"["la politique/
and you define"police" as a partitionof
police"and "la politique/politique"]
thesensible/perceptible,
while"political"would be a meansfordisrupting
thispartition,
since,accordingtoyou,theessenceofpoliticsis disagreement.
Fromwhichyouderivean "aestheticofthepolitical,"ora politicsthatwould
be aestheticinthesenseofallowingtobe heardorseenwhatwas previously
invisibleand inaudible,by inscribinga perceptiveworldintoanotherone,
as you describeditinyour"Postface"totheAmericaneditionofLePhilosophe
et ses pauvres(1998). So my questionis this:Does literature
belong to this
historical
mode
ofvisibilitythatyou call aesthetic,or is it different
general
fromit,and how? One has theimpressionof a kindof conflationof these
threeterms-politics,aesthetics,
todesignatethesameoperation:
literature-an antagonisticpartitionofthesensible.
JR I use "aesthetic"in two senses-one broad,one morerestrained.In
thebroad sense, I speak of an "aestheticof thepolitical,"to indicatethat
material.Politics
politicsis firstof all a battleabout perceptible/sensible
and police are two different
modes ofvisibility
concerningthethingsthata
considers
as
"to
be lookedinto,"and theappropriatesubjectsto
community
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12

JacquesRanciere

look into them,to judge and decide about them.In the extremeexample
thepatriciansdo notsee thatwhat is coming
thatI gave in La Misentente,
wordsspeakingofcommon
fromthemouthsoftheplebeiansarearticulated
In therestrained
sense,"aesthetic"
things,and notgrowlsofhungerand furor.
the
for
me
a
of
to
art,
representative
specificsystem
opposed
designates
arts
among the different
systemdistinguishes,
system.The representative
in
of
with
a
the
of
those
arts
common
sense
(different
goalways doing),
criteria
imitation-andfromthereit definesgenres,normsof"fabrication,"
of appreciation,etc.The aestheticsystemdistinguishestheartisticdomain
The aesthetic
based on how artisticproductionsare sensible/perceptible.
a
this
manifestations
ofthoughttransforms
into
the
of
mode
specific
system
a thoughtthathas become exteriorto itself-in a sensibilitythatis itself
The aesthetic
uprootedfromtheordinarymode ofthesensible/perceptible.
art
and the
the
of
as
of
the
intentional
equivalents
systemproposes products
the
and
of
the
of
the
conscious
non-intentional,
completed
non-completed,
and the unconscious (Kant's "aimless finality,"
Schelling'sdefinitionof
artistic
ofa consciousand an unconscious
productionas thecomingtogether
norms,but
process,etc.)It exemptstheproductsofartfromrepresentative
also fromthekindofautonomythatthestatusofimitationhad giventhem.
Itmakesthemintobothautonomous,self-sufficient
realities,and intoforms
of life.Literature,as a new systemof the art of writing,belongs to this
aestheticsystemoftheartsand to itsparadoxicalmode ofautonomy.
In whatsense do you use theword "writing"[Vcriture]
in thesubtitle
SG
of your Chairdes mots.Politiquesde l' criture?
For example,how do you
"discourse,"and "language"?Whatare the
distinguishitfrom"literature,"
theoriesoflanguage-philosophicalor otherwise-underlying
youruse of
thesewords?
JR The idea ofwritingis notbased on a theoryoflanguage,buton what
I callthepartition
ofthesensible.ForPlato,writingdefineda certaincommon
circulation
of language and thoughtwith neithera legitimate
space-a
a specificreceptor,
nora regulatedmode oftransmission.
Forhim,
emitter,
thisspace ofmutelanguageis,by thesame token,thespace ofdemocracy,
and democracyis also the systemof writtenlaws and the systemwhere
thereis no specifictitleforexercisingpower.This is a philosophicaland
politicalconcept,ratherthana linguisticone. "Writing"is a modalityofthe
which,since Plato and Aristotle,has
rapportbetween logosand aisthesis,
servedto conceptualizethepoliticalanimal.The conceptsofwritingand of
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Interview

13

allow us to considerthepoliticalanimal as a literaryanimal,an

literarity
animalinthegripofletters,
inasmuchas letters
belongtono one and circulate
fromall quarters.
Ifone had todistinguish
SG
yourapproachfromthatofMichelFoucault,
withwhom you acknowledgecertainaffinities,
would it be thisnotionof
the partitionof the sensible,and of thepoliticalpartitionof the common
language-in eitheran egalitarianmanneror not-that differentiates
you?
Whatexactlywould be thesubjectofyour"genealogy"?
JR The idea ofthepartitionofthesensibleis no doubtmyown way of
and appropriating
formyown accountthegenealogicalthought
translating
ofFoucault-his way ofsystematizing
how thingscan be visible,utterable,
and capable of being thought.The genealogyof the conceptof literature
thatI have attempted
inLa parolemuette,
orinmycurrent
workon thesystems
of art, could be expressedin termsclose to Foucault'sconceptof episteme.
Butat thesame time,Foucault'sconceptclaimstoestablishwhatis thinkable
or not fora particularera. For one thing,I am much more sensitiveto
oranachronisms
inhistorical
crossings-over,
repetitions,
experience.Second,
thehistoricists'
between
the
thinkable
and
the
unthinkableseems
partition
tome tocoverup themorebasicpartition
the
concerning veryrighttothink.
So thatwhereFoucaultthinksin termsof limits,closureand exclusion,I
thinkin termsofinternaldivisionand transgression.
L'Histoire
delafoliewas
aboutlockingup "madmen"as an externalstructuring
conditionofclassical
reason. In La nuit des prol6taires,
I was interestedin the way workers
appropriateda timeofwritingand thoughtthatthey"could not"have.Here
we are in a polemicalarenaratherthanan archeologicalone. And thusit's
thequestionofequality-whichforFoucaulthad no theoretical
pertinencethatmakesthedifference
betweenus.
SG

What is common language? What conception-philosophical,

linguistic,or otherwise-do you have oflanguage,ofwords,ofdiscourse,
of letters,thatallows you to ponder thesepartitionings,
these divisions?
And has thisconceptionchangedsinceyourworkon La nuitdesprolitaires?
JR The idea of"commonlanguage"is morepolemicalthandefinitional,
morephilosophicalthanlinguistic.On theone hand, "commonlanguage"
is thepoliticalrefusalofthepolicinglogic ofseparateidioms.The workers
ofLa nuitdesproletaires
refusedtotalk"workmen'stalk."Theyrefusedtobe
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14

JacquesRanciere

On theotherhand,thereference
is methodological.
assigneda groupidentity.
a
matter
in
of
that
the
It's
saying
long run,philosophersand historians,
and
sociologists
politiciansspeak, argue and make gesturesin the same
language.
JHK To put the questionin Chomsky'sterms,can we say thatyou are
interestedin partin literaryperformances-intheway theyare classified
and carriedout,etc.,and at thesame time,you seek to conceivea kindof
equalityofliterarycompetence?
inliterarity
as a commonpotentiality
JR On theone hand,I'm interested
ofexperience-individualand collective.On theotherhand,I'm interested
inliterature
as thespecificcase oftheartofwritingwithina historicalsystem
ofart.Obviouslythesetwoarelinked.Buton theone hand,generalliterary
competencehas no directconsequencesforliterature's
specificperformances.
Rather,thereis a rapportoftension,ofoppositionby writersto thissystem
ofliterarity,
whichconditionstheirexpressionand theirreception.Further,
I believeit'sfruitful
to workin twodirectionsat once-toward constituting
a paradigmof literature,
withits specificpoliticalpowers,and also in the
more
and transhistorical
indeterminate
area ofthepoliticsofwriting.
larger,
Wemustnotbe in a hurryto linkthesetwo together.
Wemustallow each of
theseaxes to produceitsown results.Bylinkingthemtogethertoo quickly,
we fallintotheuselesscategoriesthatI spokeofearlier-modernity,
critique
ofrepresentation,
and so on.
the"truenovelsofthedemocratic
JHK Whydo Woolfand Joycerepresent
more
than
Zola
or
To
elaborate,your work strongly
period" any
Hugo?
the
"Platonic"
notion
of
"a
of
questions
style speakingpresumedtobelong
to the workerstatus."It seems to want to deconstruct"how philosophy
in a way thatassignshim
conceptualizesthemeaningofan artisan'sactivity
a place appropriateto his being;thussocial historyor sociologyconnects
of a linkbetweena
being a 'good' scientific
objectwiththerepresentation
way ofbeingand a way ofdoingorsayingthatbelongsto popularidentity"
("Histoiredes mots,motsde l'histoire,"88).
You also say that "there are two kinds of community-societies
conceivedon theorganicand functional
mode-based on people's identity,
on deeds and words-and societiesbased on thesimpleequalityofspeaking
people, on the contingencyof theircomingtogether(ibid. 98), and that
"Clearly thereis a genealogy of the kinds of writingproduced by the
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Interview

15

community.For example, in the Age of Romanticism,realisticwriting

and anotherformof
correspondsto a certainparadigmof thecommunity,
to
another
idea
the
of
writingcorresponds
Clearly,foryou,
community."
"thetruenovelsofthedemocraticera arein factthosethatapparentlyspeak
oftheleisureclass and theirstatesofmind,and notthosethataim to givean
a la Zola."
accountofgreatsocial movements,
Doesn'tthisvergeon reintroducing
a new formofPlatonicclassification
of literature(perhaps even of society),and appropriateliterary-social
correspondences?
Somethinglike: the realliteratureof democracyis that
based on heterogeneousvoices,notgrandsocial gesture(preciselybecause
it correspondsto the realformsof democracy,
based on simpleequalityof
not
functional
speakingsubjects, organic
unity).Aren'tyou back to saying
thatthereare,indeed,formsof literaryexpressionessentiallyappropriate
to specificcommunity(i.e. political)forms?Only,thistime,just theinverse
of theones we thought.
to
Perhapsthisrelatestotheslidefromtwo"paradigms"ofcommunity
two "types"ofcommunity?
Thatis,ifwe maintainthedistinction
between
"paradigms" and the communities, can't we say that a democratic
willinevitably,
and
community-indeedany
community--can
appropriately,
mustrigorously
and conscientiously
be thoughtofeither/both
in "functional,
no
organic"and "simpleequalityofcontingence"terms,and thattherefore,
one typeof fictive(or theoretical)discourseis theessentiallyappropriate
one for democracy?Making visible the real relation of a Woolf-Joyce
discourseto thedemocraticepochdoes notrequiredenyingtherelationofa
Hugo-Zola discourse.Both are relatedto the democraticprojectin some
of
way; neitherdemocracymake. Doesn't respectforthe heterogeneity
discourseopen us to thepossiblepositiveuses ofbothkindsofdiscoursefor
thedemocraticprojectratherthanthechoosingofone overtheother?
JR The textto which you referaddressed the literaryparadigms of
historicdiscourseand the reasonsforthe perceptibleimpoverishment
of
thediscourseofsocial history.
therewas a
DuringtheAge ofRomanticism,
largeparadigm,represented
byMichelet,thatanalyzeddemocraticspeaking,
and was based on reducingthe"literary"gap thatconstitutedthiskindof
oftherevolutionary
orators,Micheletsubstituted
speaking.Fortherhetoric
the"meaningoftheirwords."Forhim,whatis speakingthroughthewords
oftherevolutionary
oratorsis eitherthelifeofgenerations,
themotherhood
of nature,or,on thecontrary,
theguttersof thecities.It is to such naturalIt is fromthesethatsprings
mythological
powersthatHugo and Zola refer.
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16

JacquesRancibre

I have detecteda certainexhaustionof this

the discourseof social history.
have keptsome disincarnateprinciples
From
social
historians
it,
paradigm.
ofmethod(recourseto greatcyclesand to daily detailsofmateriallife,the
of"silentwitnesses"),whileforgetting
theirsource.Forthem,
interrogation
thisreductionofliterarity
is stilltoo "literary."
And socialhistorians,
being
generallyorientedto theLeft,have a tendencyto see in everyquestionof
thisorderan aestheticism
thatis unworthy
ofpopularstruggles
and suffering.
I have said thatin orderforhistoriansto renewtheiraccess to democratic
speaking,theywould do well to renewtheirliteraryparadigms,and for
linesthatare closerto
myself,I wroteLa Nuitdesproletaires
along structural
TheWavesthanto LesMisdrables.
Forme,itwas an heuristicprinciple.From
thehistorians'pointof view,it was a provocation.But it's not a matterof
sayingthattherewould be a trulydemocraticliteratureand thenanother,
falselydemocraticliterature.There is no correspondence,termby term,
betweennovelisticformsand formsof politicalaction. And finally,it is
ofwriting-thatbelongstothedemocratic
literarity-asa modeofcirculation
of
the
and
not
some
kindofintrigue.
sensible,
partition
SG

Youpropose"disagreement"
as a way ofthinking
about
[lamisentente]
it
from
political subjectification,distinguishing
"misrecognition" [la
or "misunderstanding"
[lemalentendu].
meconnaissance]
Disagreementas the
democratic
as opposedtoconsensus.Youproposethenotion
logicofdissensus,
of"warringwritings"in
ordertothinkaboutliterature
and itscontradictions.
Whatwould constitute
similartowhat's
"heterogeneous"
literary
production,
in
the
produced by disagreement
political arena? Is there a style of
which,of course,would not be a
subjectification
particularto literature,
theoryofthesubject?
Literature,like politics,operates processes of subjectification
JR
by
theworld.Thisbeingso,
proposingnew ways ofisolatingand articulating
itssubjectiveinventionsaremade via a singularmechanism.Literature
finds
itselfbetweendemocraticliterarity
and a metapoliticalgoal: the goal of a
discourseand a knowledgeaboutthecommunity
thatwould speakthetruth,
The subjectsof a
underlyingor runningcounterto democraticliterarity.
invented
literature
bear
witness
to thisduality.
perceptibleexperience
by
Thus Flaubert'scharactersbear witnessto boththedemocraticcirculation
oflettersand a bodilyand passive mode ofperceptionthatchallengesthis,
movingfromthehumanscale to a sub-atomicone.

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Interview

17

Did I understand you rightly,in your talk at the Universityof

SG
whenyou affirmed
thattheantagonistic
ofthe
Connecticut,
subjectification
in
of
the
or
sensible-like
the
unconscious
social
like
the
texts,
partition
in
literature?
aesthetic-originates
JR At thatpoint I was not talkingabout an originof the politicalin
in thesense thatI understandit,as a
general.I was talkingaboutliterature,
historicalsystemoftheartofwriting.I said thatforme,thequestionofthe
mustextendto theheartofthisantagonisticpartition
politicalin literature
ofthesensiblethatconstitutes
thepolitical.And,in thiscontext,I analyzed
the politics-or metapolitics-specific to literature. That is, the
ofthepoliticaland thehistoricalperformed
in
reconfiguration
by literature
theAge ofRomanticism,
whenitcounteredhistorians'historyand tribunal
debates with a dive into the hidden depths of society and its coded
messages-fromBalzac's marketplacetoHugo's sewersystem,and whenit
in the
publisheda language and a rhythmappropriateto the community,
of
Rimbaud.
style
Aesthetics,Politics,and Democracy
SG
You writethat"... democracyis not simplya formof government,
nora kindofsociallife,inthestyleofde Tocqueville.Democracyis a specific
mode ofsymbolicstructuring
oftheindividuallivingin common."Would
therefore
social
or
every
politicalmovementbe firstof all a will toward
aestheticappropriation-anappropriationoftheother'slanguage--justas
everyaestheticpracticewould alwaysbe political?
of the
JR I thinkthatthe aestheticdimensionof the reconfiguration
between
and
that
circumscribe
the
relationships
doing,seeing
saying
beingin-common
is inherent
toeverypoliticalorsocialmovement.
Butthisaesthetic
that
componentofpoliticsdoes notlead me to seekthepoliticaleverywhere
thereis a reconfiguration
ofperceptibleattributes
in general.I am farfrom
believingthat"everythingis political."On the otherhand, I believe it's
importantto notethatthepoliticaldimensionoftheartscan be seen firstof
all in the way thattheirformsmateriallypropose the paradigms of the
Books,theater,
orchestra,
choirs,dance,paintingsormuralsare
community.
modes forframing
a community.
And thetermsofthealliancethata certain
numberofartistsor artisticcurrents
have made withrevolutionary
politics

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18

JacquesRanciere

are firstofall formedon theirown ground:in theinventionoftheateras an

theredistribution
autonomousart,theredefinition
ofthemediumofpainting,
oftherelationships
betweenpureartand decorativeart,etc.
SG
The idea ofliterary
"incarnation"appearsin yourworkbeginningin
the1990s,in thevariousliterarystudiesthatyou latercollectedunderthe
titleLa chairdesmots.How did thisparadigmcometo you,and how do you
ofthenineteenth
justifyusingitto considertheliterature
century?
JR I believe thiscame to me throughthechancereadingof Balzac's Le
in a quasi-Surrealist
way Plato'sfable
curddu village.Thisnovelfictionalizes
of theperversity
whichleads two
ofwriting.In contrastto novel-reading,
a
pure,popularsouls intocrime,Balzac presents redemptivewritingcarved
intotheverygroundofreality-thecanalsthattheheroinecauses tobe dug
in orderto redeemhersins and bringirrigation
and fortuneto hervillage.
Thisfableis closetoSaint-Simon's
theme-railroads
and canals
greatutopian
as truemeansofhumancommunication,
as opposed todemocratic
babbling.
Forme,thisrevivedthequestionofthepartitionofthesensible,whichwas
at theheartoftheworkers'emancipation.
Butitalso gave a romanticversion
ofthegreatthemeofSt.Paul: incarnatelanguagevs. dead letters.Fromthat
betweenthestatusofnovelistic
point,I was led to rethinktherelationship
fictionand theparadigmofincarnatelanguage,notablybased on a counterreadingoftheepisodeofPeter'sdenial,whichplaysa keyroleinAuerbach's
analysisofthegospels' accountsand novelisticrealism,inMimesis.Literary
disembodiment
struckme as theveryheartofthenovelistictraditionand of
the"dangersofnovel-reading"
identified
withdamagingeffects
superficially
of theimagination.I thensoughtto show how literatureas constitutedin
the nineteenthcenturywas involved in a greatgap between democratic
literatureand its opposite-the idea of a "truewriting,"a new versionof
incarnatelanguage.Consider,forexample,Balzac's or Michelet'snotionof
a languageofmuteofthings,Mallarm6's"directwriting"oftheIdea on the
page,Rimbaud'slanguageaccessibletoeverymeaning,Proust'sbookwritten
withinus, and so on.
SG
Totheextentthatforyou,democracyis notembodiedand thepolitical
collectiveis not an organism,you consider political subjectificationas
disembodiment."
How do yourideas differ
fromtheconceptionof
"literary
democraticinventionby someonelikeClaude Lefort?

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Interview

19

JR Lefortconsidersdemocracyas a moderninvention,based on the

schemata of the double body of the king and his revolutionary
disembodiment.This schematalinksthedualityintrinsic
to theconceptof
"thepeople" to thedualityoftheking'sbody,and makesdemocracyspring
froma kindoforiginal,symbolicmurder.So thatforhim,democracysprings
froman imaginaryreinvesting
ofa ravagedcommonbody,and is shadowed
totalitarian
terror.
Thus
democratic
by
dualityis linkedto thedrama ofan
sacrifice.
And
all
original
"theological-political"
thoughtcenterson this
Freudianthemeofpatricide,on Lacanianexclusion,on theKantiansublime,
on theTenCommandments'interdiction
of representation,
etc.in orderto
a
vision
of
the
definitivelyimpose pathological
political,wherein two
centuriesof historyare read as a singlecatastrophelinkedto thisoriginal
murder.I wantedto show thatdemocraticpeople weretotallyindependent
fromthisdrama.Whichis whyI used theGreektermdemos,whichcarries
no ghostsofsacrificedkings(thiscouldbe themeaningoftheend ofOedipus
at Colonus: the pure and simple disappearance of the dead king, the
elimination
ofthedramaofsacrifice).
Thedemosis nottheglorious,imaginary
body thatis heirto thesacrificedroyalbody.It's notthebody ofthepeople.
It's theabstractassemblageof "ordinarypeople," who have no individual
titleto govern.It is thepure additionof "chance"thatcomes to revokeall
ideas oflegitimatedomination,all notionsofpersonal"virtue"destininga
special category of people to govern. Democracy is the paradoxical
governmentof those who do not embody any title for governingthe
So thedoublebodyofthepeople is thedifference
thatseparates
community.
a politicalsubjectfromany empiricalpartofthesocial body.
JHK All right,democracyis government
by ordinarypeople. Buthow is
theabstractidea ofdemostranslatedconcretely
in today'sworld?
Thereis no constantbodyofthedemosthatwould supportdemocratic
JR
Thedemocratic
pronouncements.
principleis thebasis forwhatcan be called
occurencesofpoliticalsubjectification.
The principleof demosis translated
the
activities
of
those
who
make
and demonstrations,
by
pronouncements
a powerdeniedtowordsand judgment.Itis fromdemosthatthose
affirming
who have no business speaking,speak, and thosewho have no business
takingpart,takepart.These subjectsgive themselvescollectivenames (the
GermanJews,and so on) and impose a
people, citizens,the proletariat,
of
the
sensible
reconfiguration
by makingvisible what was not visible,
beginningwiththemselvesas subjectscapable ofspeakingabout common
ground.
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20

JacquesRanciere

SG
For example, therewas some demosat work in the strikesand
demonstrations
1995in Paris?
ofNovember-December
in
JR The questionof demoswas certainlyat play,veryemblematically,
thattransformation
of subwayworkersintodemonstrators
occupyingthe
benefits
pedestrians'space.Theeconomicquestionofretirement
immediately
became,in an exemplarymanner,"Who is qualifiedto overseetheinterests
ofthecommunity,
toconnectitspresenttoitsfuture?"
Accordingtoa purely
the
movement
was
logic,
Jacotot-style
only strengthenedwhen Prime
MinisterJupp6playedtheschoolmaster,lecturing
these"backward"people
at
old
and
ideas
of
"short-term,
grasping
"rigid
salary"
personalinterests,"
them
on
the
laws
of
the
enlightening
global economy and on wise
as
the
oftheircommonfuture.A good
director
government,
"responsible"
part of the intelligentsia-includingthe Marxist-trained
intelligentsiain thenameofthe
supportedthe"courageous"move ofthePrimeMinister,
struggleagainst "populism." But the strikersreplied,"Don't waste your
well.Andbecause we understand,we want
breath,we understandperfectly
nothingto do withyour reform."What theyhad understood,firstof all,
was the logic of the explanationwhose functionwas to divide the world
into those who understandand those who don't. It was the question of
equalityunderlyingthe "economic"question.This said, thereare degrees
of subjectification.Movements like those 1995 strikesput elements of
intoplay,without,however,arousingpoliticalsubjectsin
subjectification
thefullsense-subjectscapableoftracinga connection
betweenall instances
of subjectification
and attachingthemto the greatsignifiersof collective
life.
and reconfiguration
ofthedemos
JHK Thisimpliesa constantreformulation
to
context.
Thus
these
instances
that
one locates
it's
according
by analyzing
the political. So why attachso much value to the demos?What does it
contribute,
politically?Anyonecan call themselvesthedemos.
JR I seem to detect,behindyourquestion,the shadow of oppositions
between spontaneityand organization,betweenpopulism and scientific
For me,itis nota matterofvalorizingthedemosas thegood faceof
theory.
thecollective.It's a matterofreflecting,
firstofall, on thequestion,"What
makes thepoliticalexist?"It's a matterofproblematizingthe deceptively
simple idea of a subject who, as Aristotleput it, "participatesboth in
governing and in being governed." It's a matterof reflectingon the
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Interview

21

ofthisgap in relationto the"normal"orderofthings,wherethe

singularity
of
an
is notalso itsrecipient.
WhenPlato,in theLaws,examines
action
agent
to commandand thecorrespondingentitlement
thenaturalentitlement
to
be commanded,he discoversthe logical scandal he calls "the role of the
ofchance--"government"
thatknowsno principle
gods"-that is,theeffects
forthe symmetrical
divisionof roles.It is thislogical scandal, smothered
beneathbanal pronouncementson popular rule or on the reciprocity
of
citizens'rightsand duties,thattheworddemossummarizes-thesingularity
ofthepoliticalin relationto the"natural"logic ofdomination."Valorizing
thedemos"does notmeangivinga prizetoeverysign-wielding
demonstrator;
rather,it means foregroundingthe paradox of "the competence of
incompetents"thatis thebasis of politicsin general.It means sayingthat
"theanalysisofinstances"is notunivocal.Politicsis theverydisputeover
the instances and theirvarious elements. Today the denunciation of
"populism"seals theaccordbetweenold Marxistsand youngliberals.
The AestheticIdea and ArtisticForms
I'm interestedby the opposition that you develop-based on
SG
Foucault'srepriseofKant-between"aesthetic"and artistic
form.According
to you,aestheticformcan onlybe seen as a formifitis a "form"ofnothing,
and ifitdoes notrealizeanyconceptorimitateanyobject.Thusitcannotbe
can
"produced"by artisticlabor.So thatonlygenius,as a subjectivefaculty,
producean aestheticidea-itself an equivocal concept.Whatexactlyis an
"aestheticidea," yourcurrent
researchthemeat theCollkgede Philosophie?
JR Thisoppositionbetweentwoideas offormis theoppositionbetween
twosystemsofart.Representative
logicwas linkedtotheoppositionbetween
formand matterand to theidea ofartas theimpositionof formto matter.
Kant'sCritiqueofJudgment
to
juxtaposesthistraditional
logicofartas tekhne
a completelynew logic: thatof the "freeform,"which is not the formof
whichis nottheeffectuation
ofanyconcept,butratheris thepure
anything,
correlativeofa gaze thatsuspendsall relationsofknowledgeor interest
in
an object.For Kant,theaestheticidea is thesupplement
to theconcept,that
auraofassociatedand indistinct
thatallows theconsciously
representations
elaboratedartistic
formtotransform
itselfintoa widelyappreciatedaesthetic
form.Forhim,theaestheticidea belongsin thedirectlineofthefamous"je
ne sais quoi" thathauntedtheAge ofClassicismand thatmakesgeniusthe
standardattribute
ofthesupplement.
Buttheconceptofgeniusalso translates
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22

JacquesRanciere

Homer's poetic
thatpoeticalupheaval inauguratedby Vico,in identifying
a
but
on
the
as
not
as
for
invention,
genius
contrary, an inabilityto
capacity
masterthe language,the poet's unawarenessof what he is doing. In the
theidea ofart,of
aestheticage, theaestheticidea becomesmoreprofoundly
an identity
betweenan artistic
processproducedsolelybyunregulatedartistic
will,and a mode ofexistenceofartobjectsas "free"objects,nottheprojects
of will. This global idea of art defines aesthetic ideas, inventions of
betweenthebook alreadywritten
equivalencebetweenfactand non-fact,
withinus and thebook in whicheverything
is inventedforthe ends of a
demonstration
(Proust),betweentheunmediatedeye ofthecameraand the
power ofmontage,and so on.
combinatory
SG
Which brings us to "enthusiasm,"as the power that effectsthe
of artisticingenium
transformation
intoforms.You have said thatthe old
term"enthusiasm"should be called "unconscious,"in the Kantiansense,
where"genius is ignoranceof what one is doing or what natureis doing
throughone." Whichbringsus back to thequestionofthe"spirit"[l'esprit]
of formand theindividualizedfaceoftheincarnationof thespirit,as you
describein Mallarme.La politiquede la sirene,I believe.Can everywriteror
artistfromeveryperiod be thoughtof in theseterms,since "Thereis no
formwithoutthespiritofform,norwithouta struggleagainstthisform"?
JR It's not a questionof era,but of thesystemof art.The area of form
and itsspiritbelongstotheaestheticsystemofthearts.Opposingtheform/
idea oftherepresentative
system,we have thedoubletofformas freeform,
pure appearancerelyingon itself(Flaubert's"book on nothing")and form
as theformofa process,themanifestation
ofa historyofforms,and so on.
The "spiritofform"is thegive-and-take
betweenthesetwo poles,between
I have attemptedto show thisgive-and-take
as
autonomyand heteronomy.
to
discourse,whichcreatesa fictionoftheconquestof
opposed "formalist"
contentand ofanyobligationsexteriorto
pureform,freedofrepresentative
art.Fromthispointofview,Mallarmeis emblematic.His poems are often
of language.But Mallarme,in giving
presentedas pure auto-affirmations
themthemovementofa fan,ofcascadinghair,ofa garlandora constellation,
makes themmore than aestheticdelights.He makes themformsof life,
artificesparticipatingin a political-religiousconsecration of human
experience.

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Interview

23

Foryou,theaestheticis notthetheoryorphilosophyoftheBeautiful,
SG
but the area forelaborating"the idea of unconsciousthought,or again, a
problematic of the political community that is not limited to an
'aesthetization'of the political"("La formeet son esprit").So would the
aestheticidea be the idea of unconsciousthought?And "unconscious"in
what sense?
JR The key idea of the aestheticas an historicalsystemspecificto
artis theidentity
betweenthevoluntary
and theinvoluntary-contemplating
Vico's poetic revolutionin declaringHomer a poet not by virtueof his
inventivenessbut by the evidencehe gives of a stateof infancyvis-a-vis
Schiller's"aestheticstate"thatsuspends
language;Kant's aimlessfinality;
the usual subordinationof passive sensation to active understanding;
Flaubert'sor Proust'sprojectofa completelycalculatedbook thatwould be
identical to a book that would write itself;the impressivegrippingof
sensation itself,the unconscious revelationsof music in Schopenhauer,
was thegreatsystematization
Nietzsche,and so on.Hegel'sAesthetics
Wagner,
ofartas thoughtoutsideofitself.And fromthereliterature
assigneditselfa
double task--thelinguisticand geologicalone ofisolatinglayersofwriting,
while readinghieroglyphics
or fossilsexpressingthelayersofhistory(a la
and
the
task
of
and "typical"characters
sentiments
Balzac),
linkingthoughts,
to primalelements,in themselvesinsignificant,
of theirconstitution(a la
Flaubert).This is nottheFreudianunconscious,but itpreparestheway for
it to becomethinkable.
de Paris-VIII
Universite
University
ofConnecticut
interviewconductedApril18,1999
translated
byRoxanneLapidus

Note
1. Elsewhere,
Rancibre
hasdefined
the"partition
ofthesensible"
as"that
ofsensible
system
evidencesthatrevealsboththeexistence
ofa communality
andthedivisionsthatdefine
in itrespectively
in Lepartage
dusensible;
cited
assignedplacesandparts"("Interview,"
in "Cinematographic
and the'Splendorof theInsignificant,'
an
Image,Democracy,
Interview
withJacquesRanciere"by SolangeGuenoun,translated
by AlysonWaters
(Sites,Fall2000).

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24

JacquesRanciere
SelectedBibliography

Auxbords
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Ranciere,
Jacques.
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Politique
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