The Truth About Ancel Keys

11/20/2014
TheTruthAboutAncelKeys:WeveAllGotItWrong|RawFoodSOS
RawFoodSOS
Rescuinggoodhealthfrombadscience.
TheTruthAboutAncelKeys:WeveAll
GotItWrong
22122011
(Note: This post was inspired by the Ancel Keys
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDwjkv1FW5g&feature=related)
section in a recent series of paleochallenging YouTube videos
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=egqf7k5Lzhk&list=PLCC2CA9893F2503B5&feature=plcp&context=C4eafe64FDvjVQa1PpcFP_5FVP0Z
whichImaycritiqueinthefuture.TheanonymousvideomakerPlant
Positive highlighted some important misconceptions about Keys and
his research that Id like to broadcast to a larger audience, but didnt
address some equally important points tangled in the Keys saga, and
likewise made some arguments I believe are incomplete or
misleading. This blog post is an attempt to address those
misconceptions in a more balanced and thorough way, and provide a
broadercontextforhowweviewtheinfamousMr.Keys.)
Thisisoneofthosegottabustmesomemythsnomatterwherethey
come from blog posts. And by that, I mean Im about to challenge a
story thats been so wellcirculated among paleo, low carb, and real
food communities that most of us have filed it away in a little brain
folder calledThings We NeverHave toQuestion Because Theyre So
RidiculouslyTrue.
Im talking about the late, great Ancel Keys, and his equally late (but
maybenotasgreat)roleinthehistoryofheartdiseaseresearch.Theoft
repeatedtalegoessomethinglikethis:
Onceuponatime,ascientistnamedAncelKeysdidanawfulthing.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/thetruthaboutancelkeysweveallgotitwrong/
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Onceuponatime,ascientistnamedAncelKeysdidanawfulthing.
Hepublishedastudyaboutdifferentcountriesthatmadeitlooklike
heartdiseasewasassociatedwithfatintake.Butthetruthwasthat
he started out with 22 countries and just tossed out the ones that
didntfithishypothesis!Whenotherresearchersanalyzedhisdata
using all the original countries, the link between fat and heart
diseasetotallyvanished.Keyswasafraud,andhesthereasonmy
mommademeeatskimmilkandCornChexforbreakfastinsteadof
delicious bacon and eggs. LET HIS SOUL BURN. BURN!
BUUUUUURN!
Depending on who tells the story, some of the details (and wishes for
eternalhellfire)maydiffer.Butinmanycases,Keysinfamouscherry
pickingisattributedtohisSevenCountriesStudy,alandmarkproject
that helped sculpt our common beliefs about fat. Even the Seven
Countries
Study
page
on
Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Countries_Study#Criticism)the
first hit when you Google Seven Countries Studysays that Keys
shamelesslyerasedthedatahedidntlike:
The study began with a great many more countries but Keys
deletedthecountrieswhoseresultsdidnotmatchhispreconceived
conclusions, leaving him with only Japan, Italy, Great Britain,
Australia, Canada and the US. Full disclosure would have made a
greatdealofdifference.
Ditto
for
the
page
on
Ancel
Keys
himself
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#Seven_Countries_Study):
Keys collected data on deaths from coronary heart disease and fat
consumption from 22 countries. Despite the fact that 22 countries
providedstatistics,Keyscherrypickedthedatafromthe7countries
which supported his theory that animal fat was the main cause of
coronaryheartdiseaseinordertopublicizehisopinions.Theresults
of what later became known as the Seven Countries Study
appeared to show that serum cholesterol was strongly related to
coronary heart disease mortality both at the population and at the
individuallevel.
AndweallknowWikipediawouldneverleadusastray.Otherbig
hittersinthenutritionblogospherehaverepeatedthisversionaswell,
dismissing the Seven Countries Study as manipulated bias, and
claiming Keys theory fell apart once some discarded countries were
addedbackinmakingitallthemoretroublingthatthestudybecame
soinfluential.
This,weretold,isKeyscherrypickedgraph:
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/ancel_keys_graph_original.jpg)
Theupwardcurveofdoom.
Andthis,weretold,isthegraphwithall22countriesandadiminished
fatandheartdiseaseassociation:
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yerushalmy_hilleboe_22_countries.jpg)
Andthis,weretold,isthemanwhoruinedtheworld:
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/ancel_keys.jpg)
Unfortunately,realitysometimesinfringesonthethingswedpreferto
considerfacts.Thisisonesuchoccasion.
TheTruth:
Ancel Keys did not drop any countries from the Seven Countries
Study. His most famous graphthe first one up aboveis from a
different paper he presented at a World Health Organization
(WHO)conferencein1955.TheSevenCountriesStudydidnteven
launch until 1958, and entailed much more than just plopping
numbersintoaprettycurve.(Thatsaid,theSevenCountriesStudy
had plenty of problems too; some are mentioned on this site
(http://www.sph.umn.edu/epi/history/overview.asp).)
Contrarytopopularbelief,thecherrypickedgraphdidntconvince
everyonethatfatwasevil.Infact,Keyswasprettymuchridiculed
fortheweaknessofhisfat/heartdiseasetheorybyotherscientistsat
the WHO meeting, and whenever his graph was cited in medical
journals later on, it was usually paired with some criticism.
AlthoughKeysworkdefinitelyshapedourcurrentbeliefsaboutfat,
this graph didnt exactly take the world by storm. (More on this
later.)
When all 22 countries were analyzed, the association between fat
andheartdiseasedidnotgoaway.Itactuallyremainedstatistically
significant(meaningitprobablywasntduetochance).Andtomake
matters worse, the paper frequently cited as a rebuttal to Keys
shows pretty clearly that animal protein had an even stronger
association with heart disease than total fat did. The China Study
wasrightallalong!Timetogovegan,youguys.(Justkidding.But
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this part is the most interesting of all, and well examine it in

excruciatingdepthinamoment.)
Although some of his saga has been misconstrued, Keys was still far
fromperfectandhiseventualroleindemonizingsaturatedfats(while
glorifying polyunsaturated fats) has led us down an unfortunate
road. My goal is neither to nudge Mr. Keys into sainthood nor to
perpetuate his villain statusonly to lay out the history and data as
objectivelyaspossible.
Heresthemoredetailedscoop.
Thesixcountrygraph
Lets look at this sucker againsmaller now, to symbolize its
diminishedimportance(andtoeasetheburdenofscrolling):
(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/ancel_keys_graph_original1.jpg)
Keys published this graph in 1953 in a paper called called
Atherosclerosis:
A
problem
in
newer
public
health
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13085148)(whichisapparently
so brilliant that neither the abstract nor full text is allowed to exist
online). It was simple, really: he graphed fat consumption alongside
heartdiseasemortalityinmenfromsixdifferentcountriesandvoila!
The data points landed in a tidy little line. Keys first unveiled his
Wonder Curve to a handful of people at Mt. Sinai Hospital in New
York,buthismostfamouspresentationwasatthatWHOconferencea
fewyearslater.
Curiously, instead of rolling around on the floor possessed by fat
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Curiously, instead of rolling around on the floor possessed by fat

phobiademons,hisWHOaudiencereactedwithskepticism.Onereport
(http://www.epi.umn.edu/cvdepi/essay.asp?id=33)
says
another
researcherchallengedKeystodescribehisbestpieceofevidencefor
the dietheart idea, and effectively squashed Keys argument with his
Oxfordeducated debate tactics. As a result, poor Keys never got to
show all the WHOs down in WHOville the full reasoning behind his
theory,andlefttheconferenceratherdefeated.(Atleasthedidntsteal
Christmas.)
Butthedebatehumiliationwassmallpotatoescomparedtowhatcame
next. In 1957, Jacob Yerushalmy and Herman HilleboeBerkeley
statistician and New York State Commissioner of Health, respectively,
whod both attended the WHO meeting with Keyswrote a scathing
critiqueofKeysbelovedgraph.TheirpaperwastitledFatinthediet
and mortality from heart disease: A methodological note
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13441073).This,myfriends,is
therebuttalthatgetscitednearandfarasproofofKeysfraudulence,
andisthesourceofthatoriginal22countriesgraphwesawabitago.
Itsaprettygoodpaper,almostclairvoyantlyidentifyingproblemsthat
wouldplagueepidemiologyfordecadestocome.Andlikemostpretty
goodpapers,Icantlinktoitforfreeanywhereonline.WhichmeansIll
be screenshotting excessively from a copy Peter at Hyperlipid
(http://highfatnutrition.blogspot.com/) kindly sent me a few months
ago.(Thanks,Peter!)
It starts out with a nugget of wisdom about indirect studies (e.g.,
playingconnectthedotswithobservationaldata):
Itiswellknownthattheindirectmethodmerelysuggeststhatthere
is an association between the characteristics studied and mortality
ratesand,further,thatnomatterhowplausiblesuchanassociation
mayappear,itisnotinitselfproofofacauseeffectrelationship.But
quotationandrepetitionofthesuggestiveassociationsooncreates
theimpressionthattherelationshipistrulyvalid,andultimatelyit
acquiresstatusasasupportinglinkinachainofpresumedproof.
Truethat,YerushalmyandHilleboe.True.That.ButIrealizewerenot
here for wisdom nuggets; were here to learn the truth about Ancel
Keys and his picking of cherries. Heres where the paper gets
interesting:
Since no information is given by Keys on how or why the six
countrieswereselected[forhisgraph],itisnecessarytoinvestigate
the association between dietary fat and heart disease mortality in
allcountriesforwhichinformationisavailable.
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Thats right, folks. At the time he made his sixcountry graph, Keys
actually had access to a much larger database of food intake and
mortalitystatisticsfor22countries.Whyhechoseonlysixwillforever
remainoneoflifesgreatmysteries.
Andthusly,werepresentedwiththis.Thegraphwithalltheoriginal
countries in their nonmanipulated glory. Drumroll, please. (For
purposes of suspense and unbridled excitement, pretend you didnt
alreadyseethisgraphafewminutesago.)Herewehave
(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yh_small_graph_22_countries.jpg)
alessdefined,butexistentupwardtrend.Yeah,itsstillthere.
But wait! Wasnt this graph supposed to demolish the association
betweenfatintakeandheartdiseaseamongthe22countries?Arentwe
told that was the epic discovery of this paper? Yerushalmy and
HilleboeconcedethatalthoughKeyssixcountriesgreatlyexaggerated
theimportanceoftheassociation,thefullgraphstillshowsthattheres
some association in the conventional sense between the two
variables. And as well see shortly, that some association was
actuallyquitelargeastatisticallysignificantrvalueof0.59(p<0.02),
whichisprettyheftyinmathspeak.
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Sohereswhatwevegotsofar:
1. Keyscherrypickedsixcountriesandnevertolduswhy.
2. The cherrypicking was shameful and terrible and unscientific, but
the fat/heart disease association among his six countries was also
presentinthefullsetofdata.Keysdidntjustmakeitup.
Im not going to pat Keys on the back for deliberately choosing
countries to make his case look stronger, but in terms of historical
accuracy, we cant say that he actually lied. His biggest error, in fact,
had less to do with datadeletion and more to do with tunnel vision.
Alongwithfailingtoexplorereasonswhyfatmightbelinkedtoheart
disease in a noncausal way, it seems Keys had his eyes locked so
tightlyonhislovelylipidsthathedidntnoticetheroleofotherdietary
factors.
Andindeed,thisiswhereYerushalmyandHilleboereallyhammerthe
heck out of Keys (he could surely never open a door again). In their
paper, they explain thatin order to gauge whether the fatheart
disease relationship is really noteworthywe also have to look at the
relationshipbetweenheartdiseaseandotherelementsofdiet.Isfatasa
category really the strongest link? Certain subsets of fat? A different
macronutrientaltogether?Whatsthedeal?
Luckily, the paper supplies us with a chart answering those very
questions, using the same data Keys drew from. Apologies for the
crookedness of it all. (Edit: A huge thankyou to Tynan Smith
(http://tynan.com/)forremovingsaidcrookednessandemailingmethe
improvedversionbelow!)
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yh_animal_vegetable_food_breakdown.jpg)
Theres a lot going on here, so for now, lets just look at that first
columnthatsaysB26.Thatsneitheravitaminnorarockband:itsthe
official classification for arteriosclerotic and degenerative heart
disease, which is the mortality category Keys used in his sixcountry
graph.
Tomakeitalittleeasiertoprunethrough,herestheB26columntyped
out. Values higher than about 0.43 (or less than 0.43) are considered
statisticallysignificant,meaningtheassociationisverylikelytobevalid
andnotjustduetorandomchance.Positivenumbersindicateapositive
correlationheartdiseasegoesuphandinhandwiththefoodvariable.
Negative numbers indicate an inverse correlationheart disease goes
downasthefoodvariablegoesup.
Totalcalories:0.723
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Totalcalories:0.723
Totalcaloriesfromfat:0.659
Totalcaloriesfromanimalfat:0.684
Totalcaloriesfromvegetablefat:0.236
Totalcaloriesfromprotein:0.709
Totalcaloriesfromanimalprotein:0.756
Totalcaloriesfromvegetableprotein:0.430
Totalcaloriesfromcarbohydrate:0.305
Percentofcaloriesfromfat:0.587
Percentofcaloriesfromanimalfat:0.677
Percentofcaloriesfromvegetablefat:0.468
Percentofcaloriesfromprotein:0.172
Percentofcaloriesfromanimalprotein:0.643
Percentofcaloriesfromvegetableprotein:0.651
Percentofcaloriesfromcarbohydrate:0.562
Nouseinbeatingaroundthebush.Afterstatisticifyingall22countries,
Yerushalmy and Hilleboe found that not only was fat as percent of
total calories still associated with heart disease (r = 0.59), but
animal fat was clearly driving that correlation. In fact, plant fat had a
negativeassociationwithheartdisease(0.47)whileanimalfatwasuber
positive (0.68). And to rub salt into the wounds of omnivores
everywhere, the animal protein/plant protein division was equally
stark: animal protein as a percent of total calories had a correlation of
0.64 with heart disease, while plant protein had an inverse correlation
of0.65.
Innumberfreelanguage,thismeansthecountrieseatingmoreanimal
foods wereas a general trendreporting more deaths from heart
disease.
Aswithanyobservationaldata,thisdoesnttellusdiddlysquatabout
cause and effect. Drawing correlations between countries is
particularly risky because of massive confounding thats almost
impossible to account for. But if were going to be honest about these
specificnumbers,aheartdisease/animalfoodrelationshipisverymuch
there.
Oh,theirony.ThefatKeysfocusedonforhis1953graphwasbasically
a reflection of meat and dairy. Weve lambasted him for not using all
theavailabledata,butifhehad,hemightveturnedhiscorrelationis
causationlasergazeontoanimalfoodsandplumbgonevegan.
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/vegan.jpg)
Comejoinus,Ancel.
Infact,therelationshipwithheartdiseaseandanimalfoodsratherthan
fatasapercentoftotalcaloriesbecomesevenmoreobviouswhenwe
improve the data a bit. Yerushalmy and Hilleboethose perceptive
fellasnote that the countries with the lowest rates of death from
arteriosclerosis and degenerative heart disease had suspiciously high
ratesofdeathfromotherdiseasesoftheheart(orB27,ifyouwantto
getfancy):
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yh_other_diseases_of_heart.jpg)
Odd,oui?YerushalmyandHilleboeofferthemostlogicalreason:
unlessthereisareasonableexplanationforthehighratesinthese
countries in this less definitive group of other diseases of the
heart, it may be safer to operate on the assumption that in these
three countries [Chile, Mexico, and France] some deaths from
arteriosclerotic and degenerative heart disease are being recorded
underthebroadgroupofotherdiseasesoftheheart.
Indeed, classifying heart disease deaths was pretty inconsistent in the
mid1900sand even today, death coding practices vary widely
between countries. To get a more accurate picture, Yerushalmy and
Hilleboe recommend combining the death from arteriosclerotic and
degenerativeheartdiseasewithotherdiseasesoftheheart,instead
ofusingonlyB26likeKeysdid.Andwhenwedothat,ourcorrelations
shiftabit.HerestheB26+B27columnfromtwochartsago:
Totalcalories:0.593
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Nearly all the correlations got weaker, but Keys favorite variable
percent of calories from fatdropped off into statistical
insignificance land. Animal fat and protein, however, remained
stronglyassociatedwithheartdiseasedeaths.(Gaspshockhorror!)
(Note: Even though adding other diseases of the heart to the mix
probably gives a better picture of heart disease trends, its quite
possiblemaybeinevitablethatthemortalitydataisstillskewedfor
some of the healthiest looking countries. A WHO paper called
Miscoding and misclassification of ischaemic heart disease mortality
(http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper12.pdf) (PDF) points out that
countrieslikeJapan,France,andPortugalhavehistoricallybeenhigh
illdefinedcoders,meaningtheydumpalargeportionofheartdisease
deathsintothewrongcategory.Thisistypicallybecauseofinsufficient
diagnosticmethods(especiallyforlowincomecountries),localmedical
practices(suchasJapanstendency to writeoffcoronary heart disease
as heart failure), or simple physician error. Interestingly, the WHO
paper also notes that the apparent rise in heart disease as countries
become more developed is probably due to better classification on
deathcertificatesratherthananactualincreaseinthedisease.)
Butthestorysnotoveryet,folks.
Yerushalmy and Hilleboe ramp it up a notch by posing the question:
How does fat (and by extension, animal food variables) relate to
other causes of death? Weve seen what happens with heart disease,
buttherearecertainlymanyotherwaysforthehumanbodytoperish.
Arethefolkseatingmorefat,animalfat,andanimalproteingenerally
droppingfasterthantheirmoreplantfocusedcounterparts?
Timeforanothertable.Omnivores,wipeawayyourtears.Vegans,put
awayyourkazoos.Theplayingfieldsabouttochange.
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yh_other_deaths.jpg)
Lets look, first, at that middle columndeaths from everything other
thandiseasesoftheheart.Noticeapattern?
Totalcalories:0.530
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Werebasicallystaringatthereverseimageofthatearlierheartdisease
chart.Fatnowhasthestrongestnegativeassociationwithmortalityout
of any variablea whopping 0.674 for total calories from fat and
0.657 for percentage of calories from fat (highlighted in purple).
Animal fat and animal protein, but not plant fat or plant protein, are
also strongly negatively associated with nonheartdisease mortality.
You may notice, too, that the folks with a higher percent of calories
fromcarbohydratehadthegreatestmortalityinthisagerange.
Evenifwelookatthefirstcolumnfordeathfromallcauseswhich
isalittlelessimpressive,becausenoneofthenumbersreachstatistical
significancewe see that all of the animal food correlations are
negative.Theonlypositivecorrelations,weakastheymaybe,arewith
plantproteinandcarbohydrates.
The results are clear. When we look at noncardiac deaths, its the
folks eating more animal fat and animal protein who are stayin alive.
And when we look at overall mortality, animal foods sure dont seem
likestealthykillers.
Outofcuriosity,Itriedgraphingthelifeexpectancyforthecountriesin
1950 against their fat intake to see what would happen. Considering
that the bulk of each nations fat intake came from animal sources,
plotting animal food against life expectancy would probably turn out
similar. (Life expectancy data taken from EarthTrends
(http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/index.php?theme=4).)
Althoughthedotsareprettyscatteredwhenfatintakeisbelow25%of
calories,thetrendbecomesunmistakableoncethatnumberpasses30%:
countries with higher average fat intake had the longest life
expectancies.
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/fat_life_expectancy_men_1950.jpg)
But does any of thisthe life expectancy graph and the death from
othercausestableprovethateatingmorefatandanimalfoodsmakes
you live longer, or eating more carbohydrates makes you die sooner?
Heck to the no. Same goes for interpreting the animal food/heart
disease relationship in this data as a reason to go veggie. Yerushalmy
and Hilleboe explain precisely why we shouldnt assign a causeand
effectrelationshiptoanythingweveseensofar(emphasismine):
TableIVshowsthatfatcaloriesandanimalproteincalories,which
were seen above to be positively associated with heart disease, are
here negatively associated with noncardiac diseases. A plausible
explanation is that the dietary components which according to the
rank correlation coefficients appeared to be positively related to
heartdiseaseareindicesofthevariouscountries.Thatis,itmaybe
thattheamountoffatandproteinavailableforconsumptionisan
index of a countrys development, industrially, nutritionally,
medically,andnodoubtinotherrespectsaswell.
Bingo. Intake of fat and proteinparticularly from animal sourcesis
usuallyaproxyforacountrysdevelopment.Thesefoodsgoeshandin
hand with other features specific to industrialization, making their
relationshipwithdiseaselikelytobeconfounded.Continuingon:
It may also be that countries with more abundant diet are more
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It may also be that countries with more abundant diet are more
high developed and diagnostic acumen is greater. Hence, it is
possiblethatinsomeofthecountriesinwhichlessproteinandfat
are available, a certain percentage of deaths from arteriosclerotic
anddegenerativeheartdiseasearerecordedunderthenoncardiac
groupings.
Bingo again. As we saw in the WHO paper I referenced earlier
(http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper12.pdf)
(PDF),
diagnostic
patternsvarytremendouslybetweencountries.Thispaperevenpoints
outthatthecountrieswiththehighestapparentratesofcoronaryheart
diseaseoftenhavethemostvaliddeathclassificationsaswell.Infact,if
weXoutthecountrieswiththeworsttrackrecordforclassifyingheart
diseaseandcirclethecountrieswhoseaccuracywasnearlyperfect,our
22country graph looks pretty striking. (Mexico gets an X because it
didntevenhaveadeathcertificatesystemuntilthelate1950s(hattip
to Plant Positive for noting this on his Primitive Nutrition videos
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=NDwjkv1FW5g&feature=related)). Ceylon/Sri Lanka and Chile
numbers 4 and 5 at the bottomarent mentioned in the WHO paper
onewayoranother,butIimaginetheydeservesomeXstoo.)
(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/22_countries_xoxo.jpg)
KeepinmindthattheWHOpaperlooksatmortalitydataforthe70s
through90s,whilethegraphaboveusesmortalitydatafrom1948and
1949. Its possible that some of the countries improved their death
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classifying practices in the decades between, so this graph should be

takenwithagrainofsalt.Especiallyifyouhavelowbloodpressure.
ButbacktoYerushalmyandHilleboeforamomentbecausetheyreso
awesome:
Moreover, as Table IV shows, there are appreciable negative
correlationcoefficientsbetweendietarycomponentsanddeathrates
from B45 (senility, illdefined and unknown causes). The latter
categorymaybeconsideredaroughindexoftheaccuracyofcause
of death certification in the different countries. The negative
association with protein and fat is further evidence of the
nonspecificityofthepresumedassociation.
Indeed, if we glance at that third column from a couple graphs ago
(click
here
(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yh_other_deaths.jpg)to
openitinanewwindowsoyoudontgetlostinscrollinglimbo),well
seethatanimalfoodvariableshavestronginverseassociationswiththis
death category, while the plant food variables have
strong positive associations with it. Senility, illdefined, and unknown
causes are the equivalent of a doctor saying Gee, I dunno why this
person died so Ill just file them away under one of these vague,
essentially meaningless categories! Such a scenario is much more
likely in an underdeveloped area with shoddy medical care than an
industrializedcountrywithmorediagnosticprecision.
Iwantedtoexplorethisissueevenfurther,soIdugupsomedatafor
eachcountrysgrossdomesticproduct(GDP)percapitain1950.Thisis
themeasureofacountryseconomicoutputdividedbythepopulation,
and is a pretty good way to estimate standard of living. (Numbers
taken
from
NationMaster
(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_per_cap_in_195
economygdppercapita1950);IsraelandCeylon/SriLankaareomitted
becauseIcouldntfindtheirdatafromthisyear.)
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(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/20_countries_gdp_fat.jpg)
So there we have it: more kindle for the idea that fat intake generally
reflectsanationseconomicstatusandlevelofindustrialization,andis
hence vulnerable to confounding. (Or maybe correlation really
iscausation,andinhalingsticksofbutterwillmakeyourcountryricher!
Onlyonewaytofindout)
One final, superimportant point that could quite possibly render
everythingelseuseless:Thedietdataforour22countriescomesfrom
F.A.O. food balance sheetswhich show how much food was
availableforconsumptionineachcountry,ratherthanhowmuchfood
was actually consumed. If this sounds like a totally weird and
unreliable way to measure what people eat, thats because it is.
YerushalmyandHilleboeexplaintheproblemfurther:
These indices were constructed by the Food and Agriculture
Organization of the United Nations from statistics on production,
imports, exports, and on the proportion of available food used for
purposes other than human nutrition. The underlying data are
stated by F.A.O. to be subject to great limitations. Moreover, there
are no doubt great differences in food scraps in the various
countriescompared.Forexample,itishighlyprobablethatfarmore
edibledietaryfatisthrownintowastecansintheUnitedStatesthan
inlessfortunatecountries.
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Dur.Althoughthisdoesntmeanthedataforthe22countriesisbogus,
itdoesmeanthefatintake(aswellastotalcalories)forwealthiernations
may be overestimated. Maybe by a lot. Indeed, theres a strong
connection between how abundant food is and how much of it we
waste.
ThataboutcoversitfortheYerushalmyandHilleboepaper.Isntitneat
thatwejustdidadeeperanalysisofthe1950sdatathanKeyshimself
probablydid?Heresasummaryofthemajorpointsincaseyoureyes
glazedoverforanyofthat:
Yep,Keyspickedsomecherriesbutalinkbetweenfatintakeand
heart disease mortality existed among all 22 countries, not just his
sixcountry graph. And as Yerushalmy and Hilleboes paper
revealed,therealforcebehindthatcorrelationwasanimalfatintake,
not just fat as a general category. Keys definitely shouldve
facepalmed himself for not looking at the data more carefully, but
even if hed been scrupulous, he probably still wouldve launched
theantisaturatedfatcrusadethatdefinedhislatercareer.
Although total fat, animal fat, and animal protein were associated
withheartdiseaseinthisdata,thosevariableswereassociatedwith
less death from pretty much everything else. Overall, the countries
withhigherfatandanimalfoodintakehadlongerlifeexpectancies
than the rest. This doesnt prove that animal foods make you
immortalorthatplantfoodswillslityourthroatinthemiddleofthe
night: its mostly a result of countries with more money and a
higher standard of living tending to eat more animal products
(along with having lower rates of infectious disease, better health
care, diets higher in industrially processed foods, and so forth).
TheressomuchconfoundinginvolvedwiththissubjectthatIdont
evenwannatouchitwithatenfootstatisticalpole.
(http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/hammer_graph.jpg)
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Alotofcountriessuckatclassifyingheartdiseasedeathsunderthe
right label. Especially lessdeveloped nations with sketchy medical
care. This makes it look like some countries have abnormally low
rates of heart disease, when in reality, they just have abnormally
highratesofmessingup.
TheF.A.O.datathatKeys(andothersofhistime)usedisprobably
the most inaccurate way to measure food consumption ever
invented.Becausefoodbalancedatadoesntaccountforstuffpeople
throwaway,wealthiercountriesarealwaysgoingtolooklikethey
haveahigherintakeofprettymucheverythingcomparedtopoorer
countries. Its impossible to say how much this influenced the link
between fat or animal foods and mortality rates, but the impact
mightvebeenprettybig.
Correlation isnt causation. Correlation isnt causation. Correlation
isnt causation. Correlation isnt causation. Correlation isnt
causation. Correlation isnt causation. Correlation isnt
causation.Correlationisntcausation.Correlationisntacucumber.
(Justmakingsureyoureawake.)
Now back to Keys. Im mostly interested in clearing up the confusion
about the Yerushalmy and Hilleboe paper and what it really showed
about Keys cherrypicked graph, so Im not going to tweeze through
therestofhisworkwiththesameAspergersesquedetail.(Atleastnot
inthisblogposttherealSevenCountriesStudyprobablydeservesan
eventual skewering.) But I do want to address something interesting
aboutKeysthatmanypeoplearentawareof,whichis
Keysondietarycholesterol:onethinghegotright
AlthoughKeyswasstaunchinhisbeliefthatsaturatedfatcausesheart
diseasebyraisingbloodcholesterol,hewasoneofthebravefewwho
insistedthatdietarycholesterolwasprettymuchirrelevant.Thankstoa
slew
of
early
animal
experimentssuch
as
Nikolai
Anitschkows
famous
rabbits
(http://www.atherosclerosis
journal.com/article/S00219150(97)001615/abstract)that used dietary
cholesterol to induce atherosclerotic lesions, implicating dietary
cholesterol with heart disease was all the rage for a while. For a
long while, actually, considering how many folks today still to dump
theireggyolksdownthedrain.
But Ancel didnt buy it. In his paper Human atherosclerosis and the
diet (http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/5/1/115.full.pdf) (PDF), he
writes that from these animal experiments only, the most reasonable
conclusion would be that the cholesterol content of human diets is
unimportant in human atherosclerosis. Likewise, in some of
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his
metabolic
ward
studies
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049565900028),
Keysfoundthatalteringdietarycholesterolinthecontextofanormal
diet had only minor effects on blood cholesterol, concluding that
attention to this factor alone accomplishes little. And in his paper
The relationship of the diet to the development of atherosclerosis in
man
(http://books.google.com/books?
id=c0IrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=keys+anderson+1955+%22The+relationship+of+the+di
CK4&sig=n3u4urFGrkMTAq4I2UoiiFNAEiU&hl=en&ei=GMvES6n6KZGusgPesezCDg&sa=X&oi=book_
Keysisprettyclearabouthisviews:
The evidenceboth from experiments and from field surveys
indicatesthatthecholesterolcontent,perse,ofallnaturaldietshas
no significant effect on either the serum cholesterol level or the
developmentofatherosclerosisinman.
Goodforhim.
AndsinceIprobablywontwriteanymoreblogpostsuntil2012(unless
someone surgically implants a new month between December and
January),Iwanttousethisfinalparagraphtotelleveryonewhoreads
thisblogthatIloveyouandappreciateyourreadershipmorethanyou
could possibly imagine. Im continually astounded that you guys not
onlybearwithmethroughmysporadicblogginghabits,butalsocreate
suchawesomedialoguesinthecommentsection.Youpeoplerockmy
world.IfIwerewearingsocksrightnow,thosewouldberocked,too.I
reallymeanit.Haveawonderfulnewyear,everyone!
Actions
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Information
Date:December22,2011
Tags:ancelkeys,badscience,cholesterol,diethearthypothesis,
dietaryfat,fat,lipidhypothesis,saturatedfat,sevencountriesstudy,
yerushalmyandhilleboe
23/233
11/20/2014
Categories:Fat,ScientificStudies
679responses
22122011
PatriciaRotsztain(14:15:49):
Ireallyenjoyyourblogsandtheyareveryinformative.Iwishyou
wouldaddasummaryorconclusionsectionattheend(which
sometimesyourdo)becauseIamnotaresearcherandsometimes
getlost(ordistracted)inthestreamofdata.
Reply
28122011
Cara(18:24:23):
Ithinkanabstractatthebeginningofthearticlewouldbegreat.
Reply
24032012
Charlie(11:33:44):
Important!Hungryforchange.tvisofferingthisfullandFREE
previewforalimitedtime!
Pleasetelleveryoneyouknowtowatchthisfilm.ThisFreeViewing
EndsMarch31,2012!
http://www.hungryforchange.tv/
Reply
23072012
russ(03:21:49):
ThisblogisthebestoutthereIhaveseeninitspresentationof
unbiasedfactsandthescrupulousresearchdonebytheauthor.
Keepupthegoodwork!
Reply
22122011
SamKnox(14:24:46):
Excellentwork,asusual,Denise.
Reply
22122011
sarah(14:30:11):
ShediditsrightundertheFatIntakeandGDPPerCapita,1950
graph.
24/233
11/20/2014
GreatworkasalwaysDenise!Lovehowyoumakestatistical
dissectionentertainingeverytime
Reply
22122011
Andrs(14:36:31):
Well,itseemstomethemainfactstands:Keyswasabeliever,nota
scientist.Ascientisttriestofalsifyhis/herownhypothesis.
Bestregards.
Reply
17102012
Lucretia(23:21:55):
IfyoureadDr.JerryTennantsbookHealingisVoltageyouwill
seeDr.Tennant,brilliantman,exposedthatKeysknewthat
cholesterolhadnothingtodowithheartdisease.Tennantwrote
somethingtotheeffectthatbeforeKeyespublishedthe100papers
andafterhepublishedthosepapersthatKeyeswrotedietary
cholesterolhaszero,zip,nadatodowithonescholesterollevel.He
knew.Heabsolutelyknew.
OneonlyhastoreadDr.BrodaBarnesbookaswelltoknowthatthe
causeofheartdiseaseclearlyhadnothingtodowitheatingdietary
cholesterolbutratherthannoteatingincreasetheplacquingofthe
arteries3to4fold!Dr.BrodaBarneswenttoAustriaeveryyear
wherehypothyroidismwassohighonly1to4babiesoutof100
wouldlivelongerthanafewmonthsafterbirth.WhenWWIIcame
along,hedidover70,000autopsiesandfoundthatatherosclerosis
increasethreetofourfoldwhenthetroopsgotallthemeat,cheese,
butterandeggrationsandthepeoplehadtoliveoncarbs.Dr.
Barnesprovestheonlyreasonpeoplewerenotdyingofheart
diseasewasbecausethethyroidiskeytoonespHandonespHis
keytoonesoxygenlevelsinthebodyandthusonesimmune
systemandthuspeopleweredyingoftuberculosisand
pneumoniabeforetheycoulddieofheartdisease.(Oxygenkeeps
thebugs,virus,bacteria,fungusandparasitesfromeatingoneup.)
Whenpeoplebecomehypothyroid,morebugsandviruscreate
inflammation,moreinflammationcreatesmorecalciumdeposits
(atherosclerosis)inthearteriesandthusheartdiseaseresults.
Withallthefluoride,chlorineandnowbromine(nowbromineis
beingputinoverhalfofourfoodsincludingmeatandcheese),all
thesehalidesblockiodineconsumptionandthuscause
hypothyroidism.Dr.AlbertSyentGeorgi,NoblePrizewinner,said
theoptimumamountofiodineconsumptionperdayis62mgbased
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11/20/2014
on100yearsofresearchfrom1850to1950aroundtheworld.Thisis
400timesmorethantheUSRecommendedDailyAmountandis100
timesmorethantheJapaneseeatperdayofiodine,acountrywith
thelongestlongevityandtheleastcancer,heartdisease,infant
mortality,menopausalissues,etc.Tolearnmoregoto
http://www.iodine4health.comandlistentotheaudioofDr.Flecha,
Dr.MillerandDr.RussellBlaylockoniodine.
Reply
9052013
robg1Rob(06:46:47):
Ithinkyoumissedoutthesecondlastparagraphthere.Denisesays
thatKeysknewwellenoughthatcholesterollevelswerenotafactor
inheartdisease.
Reply
6112013
RowdyMason(23:12:02):
Actually,Rob,thesecondlastparagraphwasnotaboutcholesterol
levelsnotbeingafactorinheartdisease;itwasaboutdietary
cholesterol(i.e.,cholesterolcontentofthefoodeaten)notbeinga
factorinbloodserumcholesterollevelsoratherosclerosis.
Confusinghuh?
Supposedlythereisastrongepidemiologicalevidenceforthelink
betweenhighbloodserumcholesterollevelsandheartdisease,
whichiswhydoctorshandoutstatinstoanybodywithslightly
elevatedlevels.Itisclaimedthattakingstatinslowersonesriskof
deathfromheartattackby30%.
ThisisthescienceIdreallyliketoseedissected.
Reply
1022014
Dr.Nate(02:10:27):
Imnotsurehowoldthispostisbutwhentheyreportthatstatins
reduceheartattackrisk(andthepapersIvereadreportitasbeing
50%reduction)theyareactuallyreportingarelativeriskwhichis
someprettysneakyaccounting.Thewayitworksisfiyouput100
peopleonstatinsand100peopleonplacebo,inthestatinggroup1
diesandintheplacebogroup2peopledie,youcanreportthatas
relativeriskandsaythatstatinsreducedheartattackby50%(1vs.
2).Thatshowthatisdone.Thereareseveralquotessayingthat
LOWERINGCHOLESTEROLmayactuallybeworseforpeoplebut
26/233
11/20/2014
thatStainsdoprovideprotection,NOTbecausetheylower
cholesterolbutbecausesomethingelseinstatinsbehaveslikean
antioxidant.
Idonthavetimetopostlinksetcverybusymakingaworkshop
forhealthyeatingbutthisinfoisoutthere.
Reply
8102014
Natnat(01:46:35):
StatinsareHORRIBLEforwomenandnowomanshouldtakethem.
Womenneedtomaintaincertainamountsoffat/cholesterolfor
hormonalbalanceandoptimalhealth.Theydonthavethateffecton
men.
Reply
22122011
SimonM(14:47:04):
Denise,thatwasfunnyandfascinating.Thanks.
Reply
22122011
ScottMoore(14:49:56):
Fantasticagain!Youmaythinkyourpostsaretoolongor
something,butImalwaysdisappointedwhenIfinishthem!Why?
BecauseIwontbelearninganythingelse.Ihavebeenreading
everythingonlowcarbeatingforabout5yearsbutyoucontinually
addtowhatIknow.
Thanksforallofyourhardworkandattentiontodetail.
Andhappyholidaystoyou,too.
Reply
22122011
Istheuseofcholesterolinmortalityriskalgorithmsinclinical
guidelinesvalid?(14:50:57):
[...][...]
Reply
22122011
Seth(14:54:29):
Thatwasincredible.
Reply
22122011
Heidi(15:13:12):
27/233
11/20/2014
Ilovethis!Ihavetheinterest,butnotthefocus,orthesmartstodo
whatyoudosowell.Thanksforsharingallyourworkwithus!I
lookforwardtoyourbookandblogpostsof2012!HappyNew
Year!
Reply
30012012
Ryan(09:39:12):
Book????
Reply
18022014
catedraeconomie(00:40:38):
Yep,pleaseprovideabooknameorsomething!
Reply
22122011
ChrisSturdy(15:17:19):
Greatpost,asusual.Itsureishardtosortthrougholdstudiesand
comparethemagainst(un)popularopinion.Iwilldefinitelyusethis
postnextyearasateachingtoolinmyAncestralHealthcourse.
Although0.59(forthe22countries)isstatisticallysignificant,theR
squared(proportionofvarianceaccountedfor)isrelativelysmallat
0.35.Nothingthatmostwouldwritehomeabout,ormakeabigdeal
aboutwhenwritingascientificpaper!
Reply
24122011
RichardDavidfeinman(00:49:18):
Theotherstatisticistheeyeballtest.Ifthedatawerepredictivethen
aNorwegianwaverageconsumptionoffatwhowenttotheeffort
ofreducingintakeby10or15%(thatshowthesedataareusually
interpreted)wouldhaveanequalchanceofincreasingriskas
loweringandtheseareforaverageswithincountries.Sometimes
youcantellabookbyitstitletheCultofStatisticalSignificanceis
notagreatbooksimultaneouslytootechnicalandtoocolloquial
butyoucantellallfromthetitle.WhatKeysgaveuponiscommon
sense(andofcoursesciencewhichheseemsnottohave
understood).Theoriginalcurvedidsuggestcausalitythetight
associationwascompellingbutoncethatwasdestroyedsoso
correlationmeantnothing.
Reply
9022012
anngunn65(12:50:54):
Perhapstherewaspressuretonotusehiscommonsense.Funding
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11/20/2014
Perhapstherewaspressuretonotusehiscommonsense.Funding
myindustrythatstoodtogainthemostbytheoutcome.Idefinitely
seetheconfoundingissueanddirectlymakestoideathatcorrelation
isnotcausationsomuchmoreplausibleinthiscase.
Reply
9022012
anngunn65(12:52:06):
MeanttosayFundingbyindustrythatstoodtogainthemostby
theoutcome.
Reply
15012012
FoodScientist(09:20:10):
Japanisanobviousoutlier.Removeitandthewholeassociation
looksveryweakindeed.Iassume(Icantbebotheredrecalculating)
itprobablybecomesnonsignificant(r2<0.3).
Reply
22122011
Sjovall(15:18:02):
Marvelousandwellthought!
Theonethatjumpsoutatmeisthatthisis1950dataandformuch
ofEuropetherewere6yearsofsocietalanddietarydistressinthe
proceedingdecade.Degenerativediseasescantakedecadesto
manifestthemselves.Morerecentdatafrompoliticallystable
countriesismoretellingsincetheseventieswewerereplacingfat
withcarbsanddegenerativediseaserateshaveskyrocketed.
ThisisthemoststraightforwardanalysisofKeyesIhaveseen.
ThankYou
Reply
22122011
Alex(15:22:11):
Nicelydone,Denise!
Reply
22122011
JaneAnderson(@AboutGlutenFree)(15:26:55):
Nicelydone(asalways),Denise.Whenareyougoingtogettothe
wheatpost?
Reply
22122011
29/233
11/20/2014
VesnaVuynovichKovach(15:34:45):
Abombshell.Thankyou.
Reply
22122011
gager(15:37:52):
ThanksDenise.
Greatblogasusual.
Reply
22122011
Stephane(15:39:08):
Ah,anewpostbyDenise=earlyChristmaspresent!
Asalways,fascinatingandentertaining.
Happyholidays,andvivementleprochaintexte!
Reply
22122011
ElizabethLowe(15:44:16):
Amlivingproofthathighcholesteroldoesnotproduceheart
attacks.Ihaveinheritedhypercholesterolemia,andhavealwayshad
LDLlevels10Xmyage.Dothemath.Imnow68,walk5milesa
day,eatthingswithwings,andthingswithfins(mercuryfree,of
course),eggs,coldpressed,organicoliveoil.Ialsoabstainfrom
wheat,corn,dairy,andsoy.Havebeenoffdairy,exceptforclarified
butter(ghee)for25yearsandmybonesarefine.Havebeenoff
wheatforalmost10years,andmycookbook,GlutenFreedom,
EveryWayComfortFoods,hashelpedmanyofmyclientsto
transitioneasilywithoutgivinguptheirfavoritechow.The
connectionbetweentheactivationofinheritedgeneticdisease
markerstofoodintolerancescreationofcirculatingcytokine
proteinswillbethenextfrontierforpreventionofinflammatory
aging.Myancestorswerenotsolucky.Theydiedearly,intheir50s,
eventhoughtheyabstainedfromcream,butter,andeggs,following
the1950smantra.
Thanksforallyourgreatwork,geekyorotherwise.SawForksOver
Knivesthreetimes,andkeptarguingwiththeimagesonthescreen.
Oliveoilisnottheculprit!Rancid,nonorganicoliveoilisthereal
villain.ButIdigress.
Haveagreatholidayandkeepupthegreatwork.Weallneedthe
lightpointedinthedarkcornersofknownscience,andyour
abilitiesinthisregardaresuperb.
Reply
25072013
30/233
11/20/2014
RobPugh(07:34:49):
Ihaveafriendwithfamilialhypercholesterolemia,andwas
curiousareyouonstatinsofanysort?Hedliketogetoffthem,
butisunsureifhecanmanagetheconditionthroughdietalone.
Thanks!
Reply
25072013
gager(08:42:45):
Doyourfriendafavor.Doawebsearchaboutthecholesterolmyth
andthedangersofstatins.Thereisnoconditionrequiring
treatment.
Reply
25072013
RobPughr(08:48:30):
No,werebothaware/havediscussedandresearchedthebasic
falsityofthecholesterolmyth,UffeRavnskov,etcbutfamilial
hypercholesterolemia,accordingtosomesourcesisauniquecase.
Lookingforotherswithspecificexperiencewiththat.
Reply
22122011
Mrs.Strom(16:03:36):
Asalways,afantasticjob!
Reply
22122011
Mark(16:04:29):
ThanksforthenerdgasmDenise.ImspentasImsureyouare
afterknockingthisepicout,andIbelieveitisyouwhoisthesock
rockerinthisinstance.Allthebestfor2012.
Reply
22122011
Cathy(16:05:25):
Amazingpost.Thankyoufortheexcellentanalysis.
Reply
22122011
BrianJ.MacLean(16:23:09):
ThankyouagainDeniseforyoueruditeanalysis.
Brian
Reply
22122011
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11/20/2014
Renaud(16:27:08):
Kudos.
Thanks,forthisarticleandeverythingelseyousharedwithus.
Reply
22122011
superhans(16:29:44):
dudestopwritingblogpostslikethisandpublishabookthatwe
canallbuy,formoney.
Reply
22122011
gager(16:33:18):
Shutup!
Reply
22122011
D.M.Mitchell(17:17:29):
Iagreesuperhans,exceptthatIamoldfashioned(beinganold
guy)andDenisewouldbe,inmyparlance,dudette.Not
politicallycorrectperhaps,butidentifiesthegender.
Reply
22122011
Mark2(16:39:08):
The1stpartofthisarticleseemsabitcontradictory,bashingthose
thatsayKeyscherrypicked,wheninfacthedid.AndasGary
Taubespointsout,ifoneweretopickanother7countries,the
inversecouldbesaid,fairisfairright.
Andwhileyoucanstillseeatrendwith22countries,therearestill
severalcountrieswithahigherfatconsumptionandlowerHDrates
thancoutnrieswithlowerfatfatconsumption.
Therestofthearticlewasnicelydonehowever.
Reply
22122011
Dan(16:40:47):
Imustaddtothekudosandthankyous.Yousavedmefromgoing
completelyvegan,whichwouldhavekilledmethroughcausation
ofanindirectcorrelationtomywife.Ilovethewayyouinfuse
humorinyourwritingandIsuspectitmaybeoneofthereasonswe
allreadyourblogstothebitterend.Itstime(ifyouhaventalready)
towritethatbookdebunkingmoderndietarymythsandgetyour
roseyredcheeksonTheDailyShowandColbertReporseriously.
MerryXmas,happynewyearandIcantwaitforthewheattome.
32/233
11/20/2014
Reply
22122011
AmyLove@RealFoodWholeHealth(17:01:16):
Asalways,afantasticreadandveryinformative.Ialwaysenjoy
yourposts!HappyNewYeartoyouaswelllookforwardtoyour
postsin2012.
Reply
22122011
Niels(17:05:00):
Thankyouverymuchforthispost!
Reply
22122011
LauraDolson(17:13:31):
Wonderful!Ijustlovehowyoutakeusbeneaththesurfaceofour
sacredcowsandwithhumor!Happywhateverholidaysyou
celebrate!
(ChrisSturdy,anRsquaredof.35ishuge.35%ofthevariance
accountedforisseldomseeninhealthandnutritionresearch.What
thatmeansordoesntmeanisaseparatequestion.)
Reply
22122011
ChrisSturdy(21:16:43):
Isupposemyownresearchbiascreptinwiththeinterpretationof
.35andIagreeitisaseparateissue.
Reply
22122011
D.M.Mitchell(17:13:53):
Excellentarticle,bothinformativeandentertaining.
Reply
22122011
RobbWolf(@robbwolf)(17:19:50):
FANTASTIC!
Reply
22122011
aek(17:35:47):
Valuableanalysiswhichshouldbepublishedinahighrankjournal
soastogetmanymoreresearcherseyesonit!Thankssomuchfor
theincrediblyimportantworkyouaredoing!
Reply
33/233
11/20/2014
22122011
Scott(17:41:43):
Awesomepost.Itsgoodtobeinformedaboutthisasmostpeople
justdismissthesevencountriesstudyarmedonlywiththe
knowledgethatkeyscherrypickedhisdata.Thanksforsetting
therecordstraight,asusual.Anychanceyoucanjustdropyour
currentcareerpathandwriteamonthlyresearchreview?
Reply
22122011
KamalPatel(17:53:28):
IknowyoualreadyboldedthisDenise,butmaybeyoushould
superbolditandputadoubleunderlineintheretoo
theamountoffatandproteinavailableforconsumptionisanindex
ofacountrysdevelopment,industrially,nutritionally,medically,
andnodoubtinotherrespectsaswell
Highlysignificantcorrelationcoefficientscouldjustmeanvery
strongcorrelationbetweengettingheartdiseaseandbeingrich.
NowwhenareyougoingtodebunkKitavaandInuit?(notthatthey
aredebunkable,butthisKeyspiecewasfuntoread).Also,isAncel
KeysreallythegreatgrandfatherofAliciaKeys,oristhatjustan
unfoundedrumoraswell???
Reply
22122011
mokshasha(18:46:02):
everythingisdebunkableadinfinitum
Reply
22122011
Grok(18:01:29):
HappyHolidaysD.
Bestline:Thisdoesntprovethatanimalfoodsmakeyouimmortal
orthatplantfoodswillslityourthroatinthemiddleofthenight
Reply
22122011
Stabby(18:20:13):
Denise,youarefunnyandsmartandIlikeyou,butImnotgoingto
readthiscrapbecauseitiscompletelymeaningless.Saturatedfat
DOEScontributetocardiovasculardisease,butonlyincertain
contexts.Unlesswehavedatathatcontrolsforcontextweare
seriouslyatriskoffalsepositives.Evenifwehaveextremelygood
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datashowingthatthereisbasicallynowaythatanassociationis
explainedbyanythingotherthancausation,westilldonthave
necessarycausation.Therestheobviouspoint,thatsaturatedfatis
associatedwithaffluencewhichisassociatedwithprocessedcrap
andstress,possiblypollutionatthetime.Butthenthereisalsothe
veryimportantbiochemistry.Saturatedfatdoesimpairendothelial
function,butonlyinthecontextofanomega3deficiency
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/H10020?
url_ver=Z39.88
2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed
Theinformedandintelligentconclusionfromclinicalnutritionist
ByronRichardsisthatDHAhelpssaturatedfatfunctionproperlyin
thebody
http://www.wellnessresources.com/health/articles/dha_helps_saturated_fat_function_properly_in_y
Ifyouwanttotalkredmeatwecandothat,ifyouwanttotalk
alcoholorsugar,wecandothattoo,ifyouwanttotalkanynumber
ofthingsthatpeoplethinkisunhealthy,wecandothattoo,and
werealwaysgoingtofindmitigatingfactors.Epidemiologyisthe
conversationstarter.
Theconceptofthemitigatingfactorhassetepidemiologyback
another50yearsinmymind.Untiltheyidentify,quantify,and
incorporatemitigatingfactorsintoepidemiology,itisntworth
muchtome.
Reply
22122011
Stabby(18:27:02):
Okaysorry,maybenotgoingtoreadthiscrapisabitharsh.Ill
probablyreaditjustforthelaughswhenmycortisollevelsare
lower.Butdamnit,IhateepidemiologylikeIhatethewidearrayof
logicalfallaciesthatarepossible.
Reply
22122011
Grok(21:18:37):
Stabby,Idontthinkweveeverreallybeenfansofeachother,butI
getwhatyouresayinghere.
Reply
22122011
Stabby(23:20:27):
HeyGrok!Werejustintodifferentthings,ifItookupaninterestin
endurancerunningImightcheckoutyourstuffmore.Imnot
againstfruitorcarbs,andIthinkthatlowcarbandveryhigh
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11/20/2014
proteincanbebigmistakesforalotofpeople,Imjustmorefocused
onpreventingdisease,Ilikemyexercisetobeshorter,mostlywith
weightsandlightactivityratherthanendurance.
Imgladthatyouagreethatsomepeoplespendwaytoomuch
timelookingatepidemiology,itsannoyingandwhatsworse
awesomepeoplelikeDenisegetsuckedintoaddressingitand
givingitsomuchcredence.
Reply
23122011
Grok(00:10:44):
Enoughsaid
Reply
23122011
KamalPatel(00:13:50):
Stabby,youtroublemaker!Letmejustsay
1.Epidemiologyisfun.
2.OnepossibletakeawayfromDenisespostisthatthisstuffis
indeedsortameaninglessbecauseofhowquicklyinterpretations
changewhenyouchangetheoutcomedefinition,numberofdata
points,etc.
3.Stabbingishighlycorrelatedwithheartrelatedmortality.
Reply
23122011
Stabby(03:10:59):
Yeahitisgood,andIhavelearnedstufffromherposts,butshould
wereallybearguingoverwhetherornotXfoodisassociatedwithY
waytodieinAncelKeysofT.Colin.Campbellsstudies?Iwantto
seeDenisemakebigandimportantpointswhileincorporating
epidemiology,butImakeapointofnotgivingcredencetothe
groundsforahypothesis,especiallywhenithasalreadybeentested
andfailedtobedemonstrated.Itisfun,andwecanlearnsome
thingsfromit,butitgetswaaaytoomuchattention.Itisgoodthat
wedontkeepsayingthattherewasnothingatalltoKeysstudy,
butIdontsaymuchaboutitanyway.Isaywellthatsastatistical
association,buthereareoneswheretherewasnone,somaybewe
shouldjustgolookattheclinicalevidence.
AndIamgladweagreeonthatlastpoint.Butitisinversely
correlatedwithironoverload,dontforgetit!
Totallyagreewith3.W
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Reply
22122011
Dana(19:00:02):
Ifsaturatedfatcausesproblemswiththeendotheliuminthe
presenceofomega3deficiency,theobviousanswerhereisthatits
theomega3deficiencycausingtheendotheliumproblems.Bythe
way,saturatedfatpreservesomega3inthebody,soyoudontneed
toeatasmuchofit.
Lowcarbersliketosaythatdietaryfatonlymakesyoufatinthe
presenceofcarbohydrate.Again,causeandeffectareconfused.Its
thecarbohydrate,thoughthemechanismofinsulinproduction
triggering,causingthefatstorage.Thefatsjustthere.Itsnotdoing
anythingbyitself.
Reply
22122011
Stabby(20:08:30):
Rightright,Iwasinsinuatingthatitisntaproblemincertain
contexts.Andasforlowcarbers,neitherofthoseistrue,butbothof
themareworsethaneachaloneinthecontextofextreme
inflammationandthemetabolicsyndrome,theirmetabolismisbad
anditdoesdamagetothebody,butitsneitheroftheirfaultoreven
thecombination,itistheinflammationanddeficiencies.
Reply
23122011
anna(00:24:41):
Ilikeyourcomment.Asentencelikethis:
Therestheobviouspoint,thatsaturatedfatisassociatedwith
affluencewhichisassociatedwithprocessedcrapandstress,
possiblypollutionatthetimeisboundtoattractmyattention.I
wasthinkingaboutstressandtheexistenceofsomanyotherfactors
whilereadingDenisespiecewhichIlikedtoo,butyoureright.
Reply
23122011
BethKirby(00:34:43):
Itseemstomeunlikelythatpeopleinthedevelopedworldhavea
dramaticallyhigherlevelofstressthanpeopleinearliertimes.Not
toolongago,onecouldeasilyhaveonesfriendsandrelativesdying
suddenlyatanymomentandatahighrate(e.g.ofinfectious
disease),whichstrikesmeasamajorstressor.
Ialsoreadsomewhere(dunnohowtrue)thatamajorcauseofdeath
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Ialsoreadsomewhere(dunnohowtrue)thatamajorcauseofdeath
ofprehistoricpeoplewasmurder,whichstrikesmeasastressful
waytolivetoo.
Reply
23122011
stressisnotonlyemotionalithinkequallyasimportantarethe
hugeamountofenvironmentalstresseswenowhave(thatour
ancestorsdidnot)regardingindustrialtoxins,agtoxins,air
pollutionetcetc
thosecountasmuchorperhapsevenmorethanthefearofyour
sistergettingchompedbyasabertoothandeventhatwasde
rigueurinthosedayssosuchaneventwasnotnecessarilyso
dramatic(stressful)either
Reply
23122011
anna(11:13:40):
Well,whydontyoulookatthedateofKeyssgraphandcheck
whatwonderfulexperiencesomepeopleofthisgenerationwent
through?Iactuallyhadspecificstressfulcircumstancesin
wonderfulcivilizedEuropeandevelopedcountriesinthefirst
halfofthe20thcentury.
Reply
23122011
anna(11:43:43):
Inmycomment(11:13:40)IwasrespondingtoBethKirbys
comment(00:34:43)whichstartswithItseems
People,thisblogscommentsectionshouldberedesigned.Allthese
ITadmirerscouldactuallymakearealcontributioninsteadof
promotingthelatestfoodfad,suchaseatanimals,particularly
theirfatonly.
Reply
31052013
diane(16:53:53):
BravoStabby!.thanksforrappingthatoneup.Icouldnthavesaid
itbetter,norwouldIwantto.
Reply
31052013
gager(19:41:55):
Youneedtostudythelatestresearchsaturatedanimalfatdoesnot
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Youneedtostudythelatestresearchsaturatedanimalfatdoesnot
leadorcontributetoheartdiseaseorblockageoranyheart
problems.
Reply
22122011
BenFury(18:23:51):
ThecrookedchartsaresettingoffmyOCDandmakingithardto
enjoyanotherwiseFANTASTICPOST!!!
Ifyouwantmetostraightenthemandcolorcorrectthemin
Photoshop,sendmeanemail,orIllgiveyouanFTPaddressto
downloadthemfrom.
Straight_],sharp,notallc/r\o/o\k/e\d/andwashedout.
Whaddyasay?
Thanks,
BenFury
Reply
22122011
ithinkthecrookedwasintentionalBen.
Reply
22122011
BenFury(19:27:58):
Nah,justsloppycopying.
Cantstandit.IdonthaveanyotherOCDissues,butthatonereally
putsmyteethonedge.
WhenIgetoldercrookedcopiedpapers,Ijusthavetoripthepages,
straightentheminPhotoshopandrePDFthem.ThenIcanread
theminpeace.LOL!
Reply
22122011
ahh,aaahhhh,(speechless)
bravoDenise!
willyoudoyourtakeontheUFOphenomenonsomedaysoon?
Reply
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22122011
andweloveyoutookiddo
happyholidays!
Reply
22122011
ExceptionallyBrash(18:58:08):
Thanks!IhavealwaysthoughttheproblemwiththeKeysdatais
nothisanalysis,butthewaytheauthoritiesranwithit.Hisanalysis
wasactuallyquitegoodforthetime(nocomputers!).Theproblemis
thatothersusedittosetrigidnutritionalpolicyinsteadofusingthe
dataasaspringboardforfurtherresearch.Wearestilllivingtoday
withthebadresultsofsuchrigidity.
Anotherunfortunatepracticehasbeenquiteprevalentuntil
recently,thatoftakingdatafromasmallsubsetofmen,
extrapolatingittoeveryoneandthenchastisingothers(mostly
women)whentherecommendationsdonotworkaspredicted.
Perhapsthebiggestproblemwithsuchstudies,andaproblemthat
isstillcarrieduptothisveryday,isthepracticeofsubstitutingan
analysisofgroupmeansforananalysisofindividualpeople.IfKeys
hadthedataandthemeanstodoanalysisbasedonindividuals,I
amsurehewouldhave.Toputitbluntly,correlationsbasedon
countryorgroupmeansandratesaremostlyacrock.
http://exceptionallybrash.blogspot.com/2011/03/ecological
correlationitsnoteasy.html
Reply
22122011
Dana(19:04:31):
AllIknowisthatDanaonvegetableoilsiscrazyandmoodyand
b?!chytoanunbelievabledegree,especiallywhenlotsofgraincarbs
areaddedon,whileDanaonanimalfatsandsaturatedfats
generallyisalotmorepleasanttobearoundandalotmorein
controlofherownmentalfaculties.
Andno,thatsnotplaceboeffect.Itwasonlyafterayearortwoof
havingintroducedbutterandothersaturatedfatsbackintomydiet
thatIevencametothisrealization.IalsofoundIhadbetter
responsetothecarbsIdideatbecausethefatwasbluntingitall.
Also,animalfatscomewiththeirowncomplementoffatsoluble
vitaminsthatthehumanbodydesperatelyneeds.Itisshapingupto
lookasifhumansdontconvertplantprecursorstothefatsoluble
vitaminsveryefficiently,whenatall.ThisiscertainlytrueforAand
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Kand,ofcourse,Ddoesntshowupinplantsatall,appearingonly
infungusandthenonlysometimesandTHENasergocalciferol,
whichwe*also*havealotoftroublewith.
Iseenoreasontodropmyanimalfoodorsaturatedfatintakejust
becauseofafewcharts.Imatriskofcardiovascularevents
*anyway*,primarilystroke,becauseIamamigraineur.IthinkIwill
enjoymybutterandcreamandbeeffatandbaconandcoconutoil
whileIcan.AndIwillbesaner,andmyperiodswillbeeasierto
tolerate,andmyskinwilllooknicer(nosmallconsiderationwith
me,Ihavekeratosispilaris),andsoonandsoon.
Reply
22122011
Dana(19:05:35):
Oh!Andbones!Ilikemybonestoo.Fat+mineralintake+fat
solublevitaminintake=strongerbones.
Reply
22122011
Dana,
ThechancesofyoubeingaBloodTypeOareprettygood.Andyour
symptomsmayverywellbeactivatedbyanintolerancetowheat,
rye,andbarleywhichcanoftensetoffmigraines,aswellas
activating147otherdiseasesofbodyandbrainforthosewhoare
geneticallyprogrammed.Thereare8knowngenes,sofar,andonly
2ofthemarepureceliac.Theremaining6areintolerancegenes,
whichactivatetheelevationofcortisolinthebloodandcirculate
cytokineswhichsetoftheepigeneticmarkersthatweeachcarry
andwhichvaryfrompersontoperson.Luteinsupplementswill
reducetheauraandallowtheconstrictionofthevesselstoabate.
Buttherealcuremaybetogetoffglutenandgivethegutliningthe
3monthsitneedstorepairitself.
Reply
23122011
anna(00:41:47):
Elizabeth,areregularheadachesalsoasymptomofgluten
intolerance?
Reply
23122011
Anna,
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Anna,
Mostheadachesarethebrainswayofnotifyingtheownerofan
existingcompromisedoxygendeliverysystemviaredbloodcells
thatmovethroughthevascularnetworkofarteries,veinsand
capillaries.Gluteninflammationcanbeapossiblecause.
Oxygendeliverycanbecompromisedby:constrictionofvessels
fromcirculatingcortisol;bloodclotsthatobstructthenetwork,
especiallythecapillaries,wheresizematters.Sinusmucus,thatcan
putpressureonnervesinthehead.Fluidintheinnerear
compromisingbalance.Usuallymucusmembranesaremore
influencedbytheskimindairy,thanthegluteninwheat,butit
mightbeeither.
Reply
30122011
JeffreyofTroy(00:40:23):
dontforgetmagnesiumdeficiencycontributingtoallkindsof
headaches(andevenfibromayalgia).
Reply
23122011
justdumptheglutenAnnaheadacheornoagoodsummary:
http://evolvify.com/thecaseagainstglutenmedicaljournal
references/
Reply
23122011
Sue(11:03:27):
Elizabethdoyouhaveablog?
Reply
23122011
Sue,
Idonothaveoneatthistime,butamintheprocessofgettingone
upin2012.
Iminterestedinwhatyoulikere:mypostings?
Reply
24122011
JenniferReyna(02:17:20):
Iminterestedinyourinfoaswell;specifically,thelinktomigraines,
sinusproblemsandglutenintolerance.
Reply
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22122011
JuergenWeihmann(19:06:22):
Excellentwork,Denise.Cantwaitforthedisectionofthewheat
belly.
Juergen
Reply
22122011
Don(19:25:55):
Isthereanystudyouttherethatyoucannotskewer?Imgladyou
werentmy10thgradescienceteacherormaybeImnotmine
wasarealuggo.
Reply
22122011
Kaa(19:32:01):
Recommendedreading:
http://nisla05.niss.org/talks/Young_Safety_June_2008.pdf
Alsoherehttp://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#fn50isa
ratherinterestingoverview.
Reply
22122011
Theo(19:54:32):
IprettymuchexperienceatotalnerdgasmeverytimeIseeapost
fromRawFoodSOSinmyreader.Thatisall.
Reply
22122011
Thankyousomuchforthispost&allofthem.YayforDenise!
Reply
22122011
muskegonlisa(20:20:08):
Verywelldone,Denise!Anotherfine,objectivecritique.Pleasekeep
uptheintegrity.
Reply
22122011
andrewseher(20:37:19):
Beautifullydone,Denise.SothetakeawayisKeyssstudyis
largelyirrelevantbutnotforthereasonswebelieved?
Reply
22122011
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So,itseemsthatwhatthedataimplyisthatthereisacorrelation
betweenhavingmorefattyfoodandbetterdatacollection.
Beth
Reply
22122011
gager(21:06:34):
Oritmeansvegansdontlivelongenoughtodevelopheart
problems.
Reply
23122011
anna(01:19:24):
Ha.
Reply
22122011
cleaningmyplate(21:11:49):
Someonehelpme!
So,thedatadocorrelate;KeyesDIDfindapositivecorrelation
betweensaturatedfatandheartdisease,butsinceitsjusta
correlation,wecanalljustrelax(aslongaswetakeourfishoil)?
Areweaskingfortroublebyeatingredmeatfiveortentimesa
week,ordowehavenothingtofear(forgivetheblackandwhite)
becauseallcausedeathislowerformeateatincountries?Wouldnt
thecorrelationwithHDstillbethereaftercorrectingforlowerall
causedeath,becauselowerallcauseislikelyduetobettermedical
care,etc.?Ordoweneedtojustthrowouttheentirestudybecause
thedataaresopronetoconfoundingfactorstheyreessentially
useless?
Ifeellikewereretreatingbehindcorrelationdoesntequal
causationhere,whenthereappearstobedatalinkingsatfatand
HDinKeyeswork.ButImnotoriouslyslowamImissingahuge,
honkinpoint?
OhandHappyHolidays,Denise.Iheartyourblogandyourwork
andofcourse,byextension,you. Thanksforthebigplateof
foodforthoughttochewonoverholiday!
Reply
22122011
HeavensToBetsy(21:24:43):
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Ifeellikewereretreatingbehindcorrelationdoesntequal
causationhere,whenthereappearstobedatalinkingsatfatand
HDinKeyeswork.ButImnotoriouslyslowamImissingahuge,
honkinpoint?
Theupshotisricherpeoplecanaffordtoeatmoremeatandalso
betterhealthdatacollection.Wemaybelookingattheeffectsof
bettermeasurement,notanactualincreaseorcorrelationofheart
disease,becauseitssotoughtoaccuratelycategorizethehealth
statusacrosscountrieswithmassivelydifferentstandardsofhealth
datacollectionandcategorization.
Butifyoureconcerned,eatmoresalmon. Definitelystopeating
sugarandwhiteflour.Thatshouldtakecareofthemajorityofyour
issuesrightthere!
Reply
23122011
cleaningmyplate(02:49:06):
ThanksHTB.
Reply
24122011
RichardDavidfeinman(01:08:22):
Myowntakeonitisthatdontwanttoexaggeratetheprinciple.
Correlationdoesimplyicausationinsomesense,thatsallthere
is.Youhavetohaveareasonablehypothesiswhichyoutestwitha
correlation.AsEinsteinputit:yourtheorydetermineswhatyou
measure.Thehypothesismayhavebeenokandtheoriginaldata
supportedcausationbecausethecorrelationwasstrongasKeys
presentedit.WhenthecorrelationwasshowntobeweakbyY&H,
thetheorywasnolongersupported.Now,strongerorrelations
wouldbeneededbutthe7countrystudywasntlikethatone
limitationonmypostonMediterraneandiet
http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com.Whatyoudoinscienceisyoutry
totrashyourowntheory.Youtrytoputittothetest.Showing
consistencyisweak.Yes,wethrowoutthewholestudy.Maybesat
fatisinlovedbutthisisnogood.Byanalogy,wcourtoflaw,you
cannotbefoundinnocent,onlynotguilty.Currenperspective:sat
fatshouldneverhavebeenindictedatleastassoleperp.
Reply
25122011
James(22:26:39):
Iwishitwasassimpleandasstraightforwardasyouputitprof.
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Iwishitwasassimpleandasstraightforwardasyouputitprof.
Richard.Therealityisoftenquitedifferent.Oncewehave
epidemiologicallyorotherwiseestablishedconcurrence,wetryto
provecausationthroughstudieswherewetrytocontroloraccount
forasmanyofthepossibleconfoundersaswecan.Thenweshout
fromtherooftops,orevensneakierwepublishtheresultsbut
precedetheresultswithanabstractthatmayormaynotrepresent
exactlywhatwefound.
Reply
28122011
Idonotagreeatallthatcorrelationimpliescausation.Correlation
impliesanassociation.Wealwaysseemtowanttoseparate
variablesintothedriversandthepassengers,butinthistypeof
study,allthethingsresearchersarecaringaboutmayjustbealong
fortheridewithagiant,lurking,drivingvariablethatwejustdont
understandyet.
Reply
28122011
rdfeinman(19:26:21):
Acoupleofcomments.
1.First,IamnotRichard.
2.Ididnotmean,ofcourse,thatanyassociationimpliescausality
butratherthatassociationisreallywhatyoudoinscience.Itisthe
strengthoftheassociationandtheunderlyingtheorythatledyouto
measuretheassociationinthefirstplace.Iwouldsaythatthese
absolutestatementsaboutsciencecomefrommedicalliteratureand
areunknowntophysicalscientists.Thereisnogoldstandard,that
is,onekindofexperimentforeverything.Youhaveahypothesis
whenyoustarttomeasureassociations.
3.Anyway,DenisedidagreatthingbringingoutY&Hwhichmost
ofusonlyknewsecondhand.Y&H,however,dideffectively
destroythe6countrystudyandKeysknewitandthatswhyhedid
the7countrystudy.Ifyoulookatthefullcurvefromthe6country
study,youseethatthehighestfatintakehadawidescatterof
points.UShad3XtheCVDincidenceasNorwaywhichwouldnot
makeanysenseiftheindependentvariablewerefatintake.The
association,thatis,thetrendisheldupbyacoupleofpointsatthe
lowend.AsDeniseshowed,Y&Hsaidyoucouldmakean
associationwithallkindsofthingsandthatistheproblemwiththis
correlationstudies.TakeanyoftheNurseshealthstudies
associatingXwithYandyouarelikelytofindinthepaperagood
associationofZwithY.
4.WhenKeysdidthe7countrystudy,hefoundsimilareffects.The
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twocountrieswiththehighestfatintakehadthelowestCVD(Crete)
andthehighestCVD(Finland)andheassumed(asinthe6country
study)thatthatcouldnotmeanthatthiswasrandomerrorandhe
decidedthatitwasthetypeoffat,saturated(Finland)or
unsaturated(Crete)whichgaverisetotheMediterraneandiet.Of
course,whendietCVDdidnotcorrelateinotherpartsofFinland
thatdidnotbotherKeys.
5.Keyspaperisofhistoricalvalue.Itledusdowntheprimrosepath
ofscientificerror.IbelieveitisstillcitedbytheAmericanDietetic
SocietywhichmademethinkofBFSkinnerscritiqueof
psychoanalysis.HepointedouttheywerestillquotingFreudfrom
fiftyyearsbefore.Ifyouhaventimprovedonfiftyyearoldstudies,
somethingiswrong.
Anyway,thatsmytakeonitand,again,IamnotRichard.
RDF
Reply
28122011
James(20:03:16):
ProfessorFeinmanifapersondoesnothaveenoughpowersof
discriminationtodistinguishbetweenyourcommentsandtheone
fromthetrollcalledRichard,heorshewillhavetolivewith
him/herselfandonecanonlypitytheintellectualmediocrityand
squalorofsuchalife.Respectfullysubmitted.J.
Reply
28122011
Thanks.MyfirstnameisRichard,thatsall.
Reply
29122011
gager(00:11:36):
Iwishpeoplewouldnotuseacronyms.Thereisaverylonglistof
acronymsforeveryentry.
Reply
28122011
Wellsaid!But,Ibelievethatthepaperissignificantmostlyasan
exampleofpolicyrunamok,notsomuchthebadstatistics.The
funnythingIguess,ifitcanbeconsideredfunny,isthattheADA,
whileadamantthatfolksusegoodresearchstudies,declinestodo
sothemselves.Theirrecommendationsarebuiltonapileofsand,
andwouldhavebeengonebynowifnotforthebuttressingby
thousandsofregistereddietitianfootsoldiersandtheirhandlers.
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Reply
26122011
anna(02:05:57):
Areweaskingfortroublebyeatingredmeatfiveortentimesa
week,ordowehavenothingtofear(forgivetheblackandwhite)
becauseallcausedeathislowerformeateatincountries
Yourenottheonlyonewhoswondering.Butaccordingtoour
gentlemenherewearenotsupposedtowonder.March,march,
marchinnicerowsandchantMeatandfat,meatandfat,meatand
fat.
Iamsurprisedthatnobodysorderedyoutobehaveandquestioned
yourintelligence.Ah,maybebecause,suchtreatmentisreservefor
thosewhoseEnglishisntthefirstorsecond.
Reply
28122011
Manyresearchersgetsidelinedbycorrectingforotherfactors,just
anothermorerefinedwaytomakeasilkpurseoutofasowsear.
Theinformationyouseekjustmaynotbeavailableinthedata.Itis
myopinionthatepidemiologystudiesareessentiallyuselessother
thanperhapspointingsomewaystofurtherstudy.Unfortunately,
thereisthistrendamongsomemajorresearchcenterstocollecta
hugeamountofdata,mineitandthencrankouttonsofpapers,and
thentrainustobelievethatthereissomesortofrealresearch
behindit.
Reply
22122011
HeavensToBetsy(21:19:21):
Whatsalwaysbotheredmeaboutallthesestudiesisthemassive
effectofWWIIandtheGreatDepression.Peopleatacertainway,
andthencameWWIinEuropewhichforeverchangedtheway
folksate.WarrationingpartsofEuropecontinuedfor5ormore
yearsafterWWI.Somuchfoodsuchasmeat,coffee,sugarand
butterwereartificiallyrestrictedbythewar.Thencamethe
depression,wheremeat,sugar,tobacco,andbutterdisappeared
againbecausetheywereunaffordableformanypeople.Thencame
WWII,withmoreintenserationing.WWIIRationingcontinuedin
partsofEuropeuntil1952andinJapanforlonger.Oneofthefirst
thingstoreturnwasapparentlytobacco.Ijustdontseehowyou
canmakejudgementsaboutlongtermdietarytrendswithsuch
intensefactorsinplace.Arewesurewerenotjustlookingatwhat
happenswhenfolksdeprivedofsmokingaresuddenlyableto
smokelikechimneysagainfor5yearsormore?
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Reply
22122011
Wizzu(22:54:54):
Thisisaextremelyinterestingandthoughtprovokingpointofview
IMO.Theimplicationsarenumerous.Givesmeaheadache.
Itsmoreanmoretemptingtometostartconsideringall
epidemiologyasbeingasgoodasusingouijaboardsorcrystalballs.
Theusualstandardsjustfeelfartoolow.
Still,thereAREobviouslygoodandinsightfulmindsatworkinthe
field,soIchoosetokeepanopenmind.
Reply
22122011
Itseemstomethatepidemiologyisusefulforforminghypotheses.
Theproblemisthatpeoplethentakethemasmeaningwhatthey
imaginethemtomean.
Reply
22122011
Wizzu(23:13:56):
Icertainlyagree,thatsexactlywhatIgenerallysayepidemiology
*should*beusedfor(forminghypotheses)andnothingelse.The
problemisthatitissoeasilytwisted,andthatitssodifficultto
explaintotheaverageJoewhytheepidemiologicstudiesthatsome
badscientistswieldasproof,arenothingbut.
Forgivemeifsomeofmycommentshappentosoundstrange,Im
extremelytired.Ineedmybed. Timetostopposting.
Reply
22122011
Yourcommentsoundsveryreasonabletome.
Reply
23122011
Wizzu(12:14:52):
Thanks
Reply
28122011
and,youarejusttalkingaboutmainlydietaryfactors.Mostofthe
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and,youarejusttalkingaboutmainlydietaryfactors.Mostofthe
dietstudiesdonotincludeotherfactors,likepollution,cellphones,
plastics,pesticides,onandon.Ofcourseyouwouldexpectnutrition
researcherstolookforanutritionalanswer,butwhatifthemajor
answers(andquestions)aresomewhereelse?
Reply
30122011
over2000nuclearbombshavebeenexplodedalloverplanetEarth
since1945:ontheocean,intheocean,onland,underground,andat
everyleveloftheatmosphere.
itsnotjustaboutradiationatthepointofexplosion,butmoresothe
radioactiveparticles,whichweandtheanimalsweeatcaninhale
andingest.Whathasthatdonere:diseaserates?(andthisisin
additiontoaccidentsatreactors,ofcourse)
butthisisnevermentionedinmainstreamanalysesofscientific
studies.
Reply
30122011
gager(10:34:53):
Theparticlesfromallthosenuclearexplosionsarenotaproblem.
Theearthssurfacetoadepthof6feethasabout50poundsof
uraniumperacre.
Thehalflifeofuraniumisverylong,morethan4billionyears;not
veryradioactive.
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Theproblemiswhenuraniumdecaystoradonwhichhasahalflife
oflessthan4daysmeaningitisveryradioactive.Radonis
responsibleformorethan20,000lungcancersayearintheUS.
Reply
10092012
Ash(02:58:55):
Howyoucancomparenaturallyoccurringgroundradiationto
artificiallycreatedatmosphericatomicradiation?
Reply
13092012
gager(13:58:00):
Whatsyourpoint?Naturalradiationcausesalargenumberof
deathswheremanmaderadiationisverycontrolled.
Reply
22122011
PJ(21:26:41):
Iwouldthinkthereisoneotherfactorembeddedinhighfat
countriesbeinghigherdevelopment:itmeansthateverythingelse
theyareeatingthatisnotanimalfat,maybemorepronetobeing
problematicforhealth(aswellasotherissuesofstress,
environmentaltoxins,etc.).Inshort,thatwecouldsaythatbetter
developedcountriesmostlyhavemoreheartdiseaseforallthe
reasonsyoulist,butalsoforprobably400reasonsyoudont,which
areseparatefromtheissueoffat.Iknowyouknowthatasyou
pointedout,theresjustwaytoomanycompoundingfactorshere.
Gottaloveagirlwillingtobeclearaboutbothsides.
Reply
22122011
David(21:28:17):
thatwasabrilliantanalysis,thankyou
Reply
22122011
DavidCsonka(22:20:25):
ThiswasepicDenise,greatjob!Haveaniceholiday
Reply
22122011
Wizzu(22:38:14):
Denise,youaresobrillantthatwhenyoumakemelooklikeafool(I
amamongthosewhotendtospreadtheromanticversionofthe
debunkingofKeyssevenstudiesstory),youmakemeactually..
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enjoyit!Cestfort.Trsfort.
Thispostwasaboutasenthrallingasanovel,withthistreasure
huntingfeeling(showingthosepapersbyYerushalmyandHilleboe
feltalittlelikeshowingpiecesofthetreasuremap)whichis
excitingandveryentertaining.Ienjoyedmyselfsomuchthatdidnt
evenrealisethatitwasactuallyinformative(kiddingofcourse).
Iambaffledbyyourabilitytopulloffsuchadifficultmixof
humourandscience.Itisquiteunique,andextremelyvaluablein
ourtimes.
Jediraistoutamieuxenfranaisofcourse,Iwishenglishwasmy
motherlanguagesotowriteamorepoeticsongofpraisetoyou.
Summary:thanks.
Reply
25122011
James(22:51:16):
ThankgodyourenotanybetterinEnglishmydearWizzu,you
couldembarrassthelady.Thefactisofcourse,weareoften
surroundedbysomuchmediocrityandselfservingcommentsthat
adecentlydesignedanalysisandcarefullybalancedstatements
comeacrossassomethingotherworldly,whichofcoursedoesnot
takeawayfromthefactthatDenisedoesagreatjob.Stillformethe
critiqueofCampbellsChinaStudyisinadifferentcategoryand
willbesomethingtorefertoforsometimetocome.
Thishereisonlythebeginningofaseriousdiscussionthatissureto
startandwherethefocusmostlikelywillbeontheconfounders.
Whatcausedwhatandunderwhatconditionsandtowhatextent
andwhatwerethepossibleamelioratingfactors
Reply
25122011
James(22:53:23):
Afterburner.Ihaveafeelingwheatandgrainsingeneralcouldbein
foraroughride.
Reply
22122011
KatherineJames(@KMJvet)(22:44:52):
Verynicelaughedandlearned.
Reply
22122011
TracyBradley(23:01:53):
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Itspostslikethisthatdemonstratewhyyouareso,sovaluableto
thewholepaleo/primal/whaddevaconversation.Fantasticwork.
Reply
22122011
JackKronk(23:05:40):
Wow,Denise!Yourwritingstyleisacraftofgenius.Yourelikea
femaleversionofCMast,ersomething.ButseriouslyIenjoyedthis
piece.Pluswordonthestreet(Idontreallyknowwhichstreet)is
thatyouwereahitattheAHS2012.Afairamountoffolkinthe
Paleoworldhaveacrushonyou.Itssuperfantastictohaveyouin
thiscommunityofpeoplewhocontinuetodiligentlyseekthereal
truth(s)aboutourfoodcultureandhealthandwellnessintodays
world.Ahugethankstoyouforyourcontirbutions.
Reply
23122011
anna(00:48:34):
AcrushonMinger?Paspossible.
Reply
23122011
JackKronk(01:21:32):
Oopsie.Imusthavebeencastingavisionforyourfuture,Denise.
YouwereahitatAHS2011.Derrr.
Reply
22122011
Centauri(23:09:08):
Whatstheconclusion/abstract/TL;DR?Youknow,forthosewho
dontcareorhavetimeforthedetails.
Reply
23122011
gallier2(10:32:15):
Conclusion,youreaslacker.
Reply
22122011
Sara(23:11:13):
IvesaiditbeforeandIllsayitagain:TheNYTimesneedstocan
fraudsJaneBrodyandMarkBittmanandBEGyoutobetheir
nutritionwriter.
Reply
23122011
anna(00:56:27):
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Nonsense.Thisragdeservesitsfrauds.Deniseisdestinedfor
somethingbetter.
Reply
23122011
Bill(00:01:36):
ExcellentDenise,veryinterestingstuff.
Bill
Reply
23122011
MarianneLeFevre(00:03:57):
Denise,youarethebest.Youwritethemostbrilliant,interesting,
scientificandnerdypostabouttopics,Ineverimaginedtobe
anythingbutdry.Maybesciencemakesthemdeliberatelyboring,so
wedontpaytomuchattentionandquestionthedata.Pleasekeep
upthegoodworkinthenewyear.
Reply
23122011
Gydle(00:19:02):
Youwritesoengagingly,evenepidemiologyisswallowable.
Reply
23122011
anna(01:12:26):
Thisistypicallybecauseofinsufficientdiagnosticmethods
(especiallyforlowincomecountries
Illrespondwithananecdote(sadlyfactual).Twodecadesago,a70
yearoldwomanstartedtoshowsignsofdementia.Shewasbrought
toaprofessorinapremierhospitalinNewYork.Theprofessor
wasntsureandorderedMRI.AfterMRIsheanounced:Yousee
therearechangeshereandhere.Ithinkshehasministrokes.
Severalweekslater,afriendofherdaughtersuggested:Giveacall
toafriendofmine(educatedinalowincomecountry,passedall
examinations,nowpracticingmedicinehere).Afterabriefexchange
(questionsanswers),thedoctorsaidthefollowingYouknowthat
Icantdiagnoseoverthephonewithoutseeingthepatient,butIam
prettysurethatyourmotherhasAlzheimers.Guesswhowas
right.Thisforeignborndoctoralsosaidsomethingofinterest:
SadlyAmericandoctorsrelytomuchontests,withoutthinking.
Amongotherthings,theymissthefact,thattherearetypicalaging
changes,butthehealthyadultsarenottested.
Reply
23122011
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anna,
Irepliedtoyourheadachequeryjustnowanditisbelowyour
questionabove.
Reply
23122011
anna(01:25:45):
Thankyou,Elizabeth.
Reply
23122011
Beth(01:30:47):
Thebiggerquestioniswhatcanorshouldbedonetotreatthe
patient.IfministrokesandAlzheimersbotharetreatedbytryingto
keepthepersonfromwalkinginfrontofabus,itdoesntmattertoo
muchwhichitis.OTOH,theMRIsareexpensive
Reply
23122011
anna(01:49:35):
OTOH,theMRIsareexpensive.Beth,Ithinkyoumissedmy
point.Iactuallythinkthatinthiscasetherewasnoneedforany
hightechthesymptomswereobvious.IdidntsuggestMRI
testingofallseniors,butonlyrecommendedunderstandingoftest
results.
Reply
23122011
WhatImeantis,ifthetreatmentisntdifferentineithercase,the
diagnosisdoesntmatter.Doinganexpensivetestdoesnthelp
providebettercare.
Thesituationisntthatsimple,becausewhenthediagnosisaddsup
toyourmotherissickandisgoingtodiepeople(understandably)
tendtograspatstraws.Weliketothinkthatourhightechcancure
illness.Sometimesitcan,sometimesnot,butpeopleliketofeelthat
theyhavedonealltheycan.
Reply
23122011
Paleophil(01:52:22):
Diane,thanksfordoingthelegworkthat99%ofusourunwillingto
do.Asalways,youareagem.
Isuspectedthatsomethinglikeyourfindingsmightbethecaseand
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Isuspectedthatsomethinglikeyourfindingsmightbethecaseand
Iknowhowthoroughyouare,soImgoingtoassumeyoudidyour
homeworkandcontinuetoavoidreadingKeysoriginalresearch,as
ImalazyassedbastardwithzerointerestinKeysrecommended
lowfatdiet.
Reply
23122011
anna(02:13:46):
WhosDiane?
Reply
23122011
Oopsy,see,Iamalazyassedbastardandalsomuddleheaded.
Sorry,Denise.Thanksforthecorrection,Anna.Iminyourdebt.
Reply
23122011
Inmydefense,IhappentoknowaDianeMinger,butIknowthats
alameexcuse,sorry.
Reply
23122011
Bryanoz4caster(02:04:38):
Thetruthisseldomassimpleaswewouldlikeittobe
Nicetoseesomeobjectivediggingintothegraveyardsofthepast.
BTW,DenisewasabighitattheWiseTraditions2011conferencein
Novemberaswell.Shewasdefinitelymyfavoritespeakerasfaras
audienceattentionandentertainmentvalue.Thepresentation
qualitywasverygoodtoo,rightuptherewithPaulJaminetand
ChrisMasterjohn,whosepresentationswerealsoverypopular.
HappyholidaysDeniseandhopeyougiveusagreatbookbefore
toolong
Reply
23122011
LanceStrish(02:17:24):
Whatseveryonemakeofthis?Saturatedfatsandclotting
Saturatedfatscanalsocausebloodplateletstosticktogetherand
formbloodclotsthatcancauseaheartattackorstroke.
Transcend,RayKurzweilandTerryGrossmanMD
http://is.gd/tRLUHT
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Bloodvesselsandsaturatedfats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH4qJ
FoVZ0&feature=autoplay&list=PLEB83EF5814779CC7&index=32&playnext=2&t=8m39s
GeneralUCBerkeleyNutritionlecture
DrOzinterviewingGaryTaubes@5m(saysmorelikelytoclot)and
preventvasodilating(constrictive)
http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/manwhothinkseverythingdr
ozsayswrongpt2
GaryTaubesGCBCbook:
Inpreventivemedicine,benefitswithoutrisksarenonexistent.Any
dietorlifestyleinterventioncanhaveharmful
effects.Changingthecompositionofthefatsweeatcouldhave
profoundphysiologicaleffectsthroughoutthebody.
Ourbrains,forinstance,are70percentfat,mostlyintheformofa
substanceknownasmyelinthatinsulatesnerve
cellsand,forthatmatter,allnerveendingsinthebody.Fatisthe
primarycomponentofallcellmembranes.Changing
theproportionofsaturatedtounsaturatedfatsinthediet,as
proponentsofKeysshypothesisrecommended,might
wellchangethecompositionofthefatsinthecellmembranes.This
couldalterthepermeabilityofcellmembranes,
whichdetermineshoweasilytheytransport,amongotherthings,
bloodsugar,proteins,hormones,bacteria,viruses,
andtumorcausingagentsintoandoutofthecell.Therelative
saturationofthesemembranefatscouldaffecttheaging
ofcellsandthelikelihoodthatbloodcellswillclotinvesselsand
causeheartattacks.
DeniseMingerneverreplied
Reply
24122011
Franklin(17:42:06):
Iveneverunderstoodthisargument.Lowfateatershavehigher
amountsofsaturatedfatinthebloodthanlowcarbeaters.If
saturatedfatistrulytheproblem,carbsshouldbethefirsttogo.
Reply
5012012
LanceStrish(18:06:17):
Whataboutlowcarbplantbaseddietbeatsanimal/Atkinsbased
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Whataboutlowcarbplantbaseddietbeatsanimal/Atkinsbased
one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=iojFtL4jMao&feature=BFa&list=PL53AA35449C7DD652&lf=plpp_video#t=4m59s
Reply
5012012
HeidiG(18:25:15):
Ihavetosay,Iwatchedafewminutesofthatvideo,andcouldnt
stopmyselffromthinking,thisguyisimitatingBillMaher!
Otherthanthat,theinformationisnotapplicableacrosstheboard.
Allhighfatdietsarenotthesame.Thetypeofsaturatedfatis
important.Incidentally,mysisterwasontheAtkinsdietafewyears
agoandallherbloodmarkersimproved.Plus,herbloodpressure
wentbacktonormalandshedidloseabunchofweight.Iamnot
advocatingtheAtkinsdiet,buthadtopointouthowridiculousitis
tobaseanopinionononeexample.
Reply
5012012
mrchristophersea(18:49:36):
Heidiyoureright,allfatisnotthesameandthisisacardinal
mistakemadebyresearchersitseems,thatisnotrealizingthis.It
seemsbafflingtome.WhilerunningerrandsacoupledaysagoI
waslisteningtoalocalradioprogramdiscussingsomenewresearch
onobesity.Theywereinterviewingtheleadresearcherofapaperon
obesityinducedinrodents.Whattheyfoundwasanalterationin
thebrainofthemicewhichregulatesfattymetabolism(ina
nutshell).Theykepttalkingabouthighfatdietsdothisandthat.I
wasreallyirkedbecauseIknowthatallfatsarentthesame.Ialso
happentoknowthathighfatrodentchow(thankstoChris
Masterjohn)isactuallyalothigherinomega6fattyacidsthan
previouslythought,andtheyrealsoquitehighincarbohydrates.
http://blog.cholesterolandhealth.com/2011/11/thisjustin
infamouslardbasedhigh.html
therewasnoclarificationaboutthetypeoffat,butsaturatedfat
becamedemonizedacoupleoftimes,asifitsasinglemolecular
entity.Therewasnobreakdownofanything,whatamountof
linoleicacid,etc.theyfedtherats.TheyDIDtalkabout
inflammationseemingtocausetheproblemsinthebrainswhich
gavemeareallygoodcluethattheywerefeedingthesemicelotsof
linoleic(omega6)fats.
Goodgrief.
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Reply
5012012
Beth(19:02:39):
Also,peoplearentrats.Ratsgetfatonhighfatdiets,butpeople
dontunlessthedietsarealsohighcalorierelativetothemetabolic
needs.
Moreprecisely,whenratsarefedhighfatdiets,theystarttoovereat,
wherenormalweightpeopleonhighfatdiets(butlowin
carbs/sugar)dontspontaneouslyovereat.
Itsnotactuallythatsimple,ofcourse,becauseitseemsthatobese
peoplearedamagedinsomewaythatinduceshighcalorieintake
whichisnotnecessarilyreversedbyremovingsugarorwhateveris
thetrigger.Italsoisntobviouswhatthetrigger(s)is/are,butsatfat
isnotalikelycandidate.
Beth
Reply
6012012
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/09/08/brandspankinnewstudyare
lowcarbmeateatersintrouble/
LookslikeDenisehasdoneagoodlookatthis.ChrisMasterjohn
alsohasagoodcritique.
http://blog.cholesterolandhealth.com/2010/09/newstudyshows
thatlyingaboutyour.html
Reply
23122011
WarrenDew(02:51:33):
Ithinktheideathatitsalljustclassificationisquestionable.In
particular,PaulingstheoryonvitaminCandatherosclerosiswould
predictthatahighstarchdietwouldcausenoncoronarydeathsdue
toweakeningofbloodvesselwalls,whileahighfatdietshould
reducethosedeathsduetohigherratesoffatdepositiononthose
walls,whichwouldlikelyalsoresultinhigherheartdiseasedeaths.
Inaddition,glucosedisplacingvitaminCinwhitebloodcellswould
bepredictedtoincreasedeathsfrominfectiousdiseases.
Wedonthaveproofthattheresacorrelationbetweenpercentageof
dietaryfatorperhapsdietarysaturatedfatandpercentageof
deathsfromheartdisease,butweshouldntconsideritdosproven
either.
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Reply
23122011
DebbieYoung(03:09:33):
IjustlovemesomeMingertruth.
xo
deb
Reply
23122011
garymar1(04:09:41):
Verygood.Correlationisalsonotarutabaga.
Reply
23122011
IoftenfindmyselfcomingbacktoWestonAPriceandhisfindings.
ForinstanceinEuropehenotedthedifferenceinthequalityofmilk
fromtheisolatedSwissalpsregioncomparedtothemodernized
regions.Weknowthatfeedingruminantsandchickensfeedthatis
highincornandsoychangesthefattyacidprofileoftheseanimals,
skewingthemhighlytowardsomega6composition.Ihaveto
wonderifthisdatasomehowinadvertentlyshowsthisnegative
effectmodernizedanimalhusbandrypracticeshaveonhumans
downstream.Afterallthereisthiscorrelationwithvegetableoils
anddisease,hasthedatamadethemistakeofcallinganimalfat
saturatedmerelybecauseitcomesfromanimals(afterallweknow
alotofanimalfatisalsomonounsaturated)whenitmaybewere
justlookingatalotofexcessomega6consumption?
Reply
23122011
mrchristophersea,
ThisisanexcellenthypothesisandoneIshare.Yourquestioniswell
worthposing.The20thcenturysincreasinguseofGMOsoy,cotton,
andcorn,eitherupstream,directlyoffthecob,ordownstream,in
theanimalswefeedon,correlateswiththeriseofdiabesity,among
otherdiseases.Ifweareluckyenough,tobeamongthoseableto
effectivelydigestanimalprotein,thenobtainingasourcewithlower
Omega6sisworthpursuing.JoelSaladin,ofPolyfacefarmin
Swope,VA,isMichaelPollansgotofarmeronthesubjectof
healthyanimalhusbandry,andwhereImluckyenoughtopurchase
myturkey,chicken,andeggsatamonthlydropspot.Ivisitedthe
familyfarmonatournarratedbyJoel,andobservedfirsthandthe
ingenioustechniquesheespouses.TheextradollarsIspendon
healthiermeats,vegetables,andneutraceuticalsareoffsetbymy
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lowerhealthcarecosts.Iendupaheadofthecurve,bothfinancially
andhealthwise.Amongothers,IalsointakeOmega3Norwegian
SalmonOilgelcapsdaily,tokeepmyarteriesclearandmybrain
operatingatpeakefficiency.Imoutlivingmyancestersandam
productiveandhealthy.Thisallowsmetopassontheknowledgeto
othersinmycoachingpractice,andhelpthemtofindtheirownbest
practices.
Reply
23122011
anna(16:40:06):
Elizabeth,doyoueatgrainsandlegumes?
Reply
25122011
Ivebecomekindoffascinatedbythisaspectofthefatissue,how
feedingpracticeshavealteredthefattyacidprofileofanimalfoods.I
quitmakingbonebrothsfromchickens,evenorganicchickens
frommylocalmarket,becausetheyrevegetarianfed(meaning
soy,corn,etc.).IknowthisaffectsthefatsinthebrothwhichImnot
thrilledwith.SoIveswitchedtomakingbeefbonebrothsfroma
newbrandsof100%grassfedbeefthemarketnowcaries.WhatI
noticedwasthefatthataccumulatesatthetopofthebrothonceIve
letitcoolovernightinthefridgeisahardlayeroffat(perhapsyou
couldcallittallow?).EvenifItakeitoutandletitsitandwarm
somewhatitstaysrelativelyhard,likecoconutoil.Ineverhadthis
withthechickenbroths,itwasmushyatitshardestquicklyliquidif
letwarmjustabit.Ihadthissneakingsuspicionitwasbecauseit
wascomposedofbothmonoandlikelyalotofpolyunsaturated
oilsasaresultofthevegetariandiet.GrantedIhaventfounda
purelypasturedchickenyettocomparebrothwisewith(whichI
reallywanttodo)butfornowImswitchingoverentirelytobeef
broths.Iamluckyenoughtohaveaccesstoseveralsourcesof
(mostly)pasturedchickeneggs,thequalitybeingdemonstrably
betterthanregulareggs.
IguessmypointisthatIhavetowonderifthisissomethingalso
contributingtotheomega6imbalanceproblemthatssuchapartof
theSADdiettoday.Ornish,Campbell,Esselstyn,McDougall,etc.,
maybeinadvertentlypreventingtheirheartpatientsfromyet
anothersourceofdamagingomega6sbynotallowingthemtoeat
commerciallyproducedmeats(andthenjustclaimingitssaturated
fatavoidancethatsdoingthetrick).Imjustspeculatinghereof
course.
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Italsoreallyobscuresthethenotionthatyoucanevensayanimal
fatandsaturatedfatnowadaysinterchangeably(whichisso
common,especiallyfromtheveganfolksextollinghowbadthey
are,etc.).
Justasasidenotealso,Idonttakefishoilsupplements.Mysenseis
thatImgettingenoughEFAsfrompasturedeggs,rawgrassfed
milk,anddairytosatisfymyneeds.Iwouldneedtofindtheexact
quote,butImprettysureIreadonChrisMasterjohnsblogthatthis
isthecasewheneatinghighqualitypasturedproducts.Icouldbe
wrongthough.
Reply
1072014
Heyjude(23:34:23):
IthinkyoureabsolutelyrightabouttheOmega3supplements.I
alsoeatcleannutritiousfoodandIhaveneverhadtosupplement.
WhenIdidsupplementsomeyearsago,Ifounditthinnedmyblood
toomuchandIkeptgettingnosebleeds.ThenIdiscoveredthata
significantproportionofthecheapfishoilsupplementsonthe
marketweresyntheticethylesters,Inanycase,thelesserknown
factisthat,justlikeeverythingelseinthediet,Omega3hasasmall
healthyrangetoolittle(common)doesntbalanceOmega6intake
andtoomuch(rare)istoxic.Thehealthyrangeisabout1gramper
day.
Unfortunately,theproblemarisesbecausetoomanypeopleare
consumingOmega6inthetoxicrange.Hereswhereyourchickens
comein.
Itstruewhatyousayaboutchickensfednonorganic,genetically
modifiedgrain.However,chickens(birds)dohavealarger
proportionofOmega6fatthananimalsthatgraze.
IfIweretosupplementonOmega3,Iwoulddoitwithchicken,and
IwouldchooseKrillandCalamari.
Reply
23122011
TheLazyCaveman(@TheLazyCaveman)(04:45:37):
Outstandingworkasusual,Denise!
Reply
23122011
Sean(06:33:45):
loveyourwork;thanksforsharing!
Reply
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23122011
pronutritionist(09:05:10):
Hopefullythispostreachesabroadspectrumofbloggersand
academics!Super.
Correlationisntcausation.Itisnt.Andthereforeweneed
randomizedoutcomestrials,evenifRCTsarenotdevoidoferror
andbiaseither.Allstudieswillremainimperfect.
However,thereareonlytwolargerandomizeddietaryoutcome
trialsthathaveshowna*substantial*benefitoncoronaryheart
diseaseintermsofbothfatalandnonfatalevents.TheyareOslo
DietHeartStudyandLyonDietHeartStudy.
Thesetwostudiesbothreported4476%decreaseincardiovascular
events.InLyonDietHeartcholesterollevelsincontrolandactive
groupweresimilar.WellinlinewithwhatKeysalsosuggested.In
Oslostudytherewasadifferenceincholesterollevels.
Whatisthelinkbetweenthesetwooutstandingtrials?Intheactive
armsvegetableoils(soy/rapeseed),marinefood,nuts,vegetables,
fruitandwholegrainswererecommended(orevensupplied)while
theuseof(processed)meat,refinedgrainsandsaturated(andeven
transfat)wasdiscouraged.
Inmyopinion,thesetwotrialsarehardevidenceforMediterranean
typediet.Yourpostandthelatestprospectivecohorttrialshavealso
shownthatadvicetoeatplentyoffish,plantbasedunprocessed
foodandreduceprocessedmeatintakeisthebestadvice.Atleastin
termsofcardiovascularhealth.
IsntitexcitingtoseethePredimedstudyresultssoon?
Reply
23122011
MortenVinther(10:52:05):
AwesomestuffDenise!Itsnicetogetanevendeeperperspective
thanthatprovidedbyothergreatresources.
Reply
23122011
TomNikkola(11:34:48):
AnotherwonderfularticleDenise.Youhavequiteagift.Your
humormakesthedrystuffalotmorefuntoread.
Reply
23122011
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AncelKeys,TheDevil?MaybeNotSoMuch.ButStill,Yah.|
PrimalBodybuildingandHealth(13:09:18):
[...]Peeptherestbymakeyclickyrighthere.[...]
Reply
23122011
Richard(14:13:21):
Minger,stilldwellingintheWestonPricelalaland?Ilovethe
primitivenutritionserieonDeniseMinger,videos(6265),they
werebrilliant,andreallyputDenisesanalyticalskillsonmuch
neededscrutiny.Gladyou,Denisewereinspiredbythisvideoserie.
Irecommendalsothechaptersoncholesterol,3435,andofcourse
thevideoonChrisMasterjohn,video26
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Theframinghamstudyshowedthatonceyourcholesterolisunder
150mg/dloneisbasicallyimmuneforheartattacks,Esselstynsstudy
providedclinicalevidenceofthis,theaveragecholesterolsofhis
patientswerearound137mg/dl
The17patientsinthestudyhad49cardiaceventsintheyears
leadinguptothestudy,andhadundergoneaggressivetreatment
procedures.Severalhadmultiplebypassoperations.After
beginningtheeatingplan,therewerenomorecardiaceventsinthe
groupwithina12yearperiod.
Esselstyn
Youknow,weknowthatifIcangetyourtotalcholesteroldown
aroundletssay100to130orso,andIhavemaybenotquitea
billionpeopleontheearthlikethat,andthosepeoplecannotget
atherosclerosis.YouknowintheChinaStudy,forexample,when
ChouEnlaiwasdyingofcancerhestartedastudyinChinajustlike
theFraminghamStudy.Theonlydifferencewasitwasin
880,000,000peoplesoitwasalittlelargerthantheFramingham
Study.ButyouknowtheyfoundthesevillagesinChinawhereyou
couldntgetaheartattackoryoucouldntgetdiabetesandthe
womencouldntgetbreastcancerandyouknowtheirtotal
cholesterolwere127,butthechanceswecouldevergetAmericans
downthatlowwithdietandexercisearenotgood.
WilliamCastelli,theprincipalscholaroftheFraminghamstudy
http://www.prescription2000.com/InterviewTranscripts/20110218
williamcastelliheartdiseaselipidstranscript.html
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Folks,becarefullwiththatcholesterolladenfood.
Reply
23122011
MarioVachon(16:14:28):
IjustlistenedtothecritiqueofDenisesChinastudyanalyis.You
shouldgobackandreadDenisesactualcritique.Theguywhodid
thosecritiques,part3and4,hasgotamassiveaxetogrindand
completelymisrepresentedthegreatworkDenisedidonthat.,
ShamehedidnotlookatDenisesworkasobjectivelyasshelooked
atCampbells.
Reply
23122011
Ijustlistenedtopart2now.Theauthorbasicallyjustdoesa
characterassassinationofDenise.Hisgraspoftheissuesanddata
are,unfortunatelyforhim,farbehindDenisesgrasp.Bigegoand
notmuchsubstance.
Reply
23122011
Don(16:49:58):
Mario,
Iwatchedandlistenedtothecritiquesaswellandfoundthem
incrediblyadhominemthroughout.
RichardFolks,becarefulwiththatcholesterolladenfood
Soyouaresayingthatdietarycholesterolimpactsserum
cholesterol?
Also,thosepeoplewithtotalcholesterolbelow137orso(really
toughformesincemyHDLis106)thatareimmuneto
atherosclerosis,aretheydyingfromothercausesbeforethe
atherosclerosiscangetthem(likecancerorsomeotherdiseases?)?
Whataboutthestudy(Forette,etal.,1989)thatfoundaftertheage
offifty,LOWcholesterolisclearlyassociatedwithanincreasedrisk
ofdyingfromavarietyofcauses:
Thestudyofoldwomenindicatedthatacholesterollevelof270mg.
per100ml.wasassociatedwiththebestlongevity,Mortalitywas
lowestatserumcholesterol7.0mmol/l[=270.6mg%],5.2times
higherthantheminimumatserumcholesterol4.0mmol/l,andonly
1.8timeshigherwhencholesterolconcentrationwas8.8mmol/l.
Thisrelationheldtrueirrespectiveofage,evenwhenblood
pressure,bodyweight,historyofmyocardialinfarction,creatinine
clearance,andplasmaproteinsweretakenintoaccount.
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Reply
23122011
Richard(18:12:50):
Don
skipthepseudoscientificgarbage,getseriouswithscience,yes
exactlydietarycholesterolimpactsserumcholesterol,saturated
mightjustevenexcarcebatethisprocess.Clinicallyitsirrelevant
ThepeopleofruralAsiaandevenmoresothefolkCentralAfrica
whoconsumeverynearvegandietsarecompletelyfreeofmostof
cancers,diabetes,obesity,alzheimer,dementia,impotence,etc.These
folkallhavecholesterolsunder150mg/dlandactuallyprettyhigh
caloryconsumption,unlikethemythwouldsuggest.Onceyouare
underthesedigitswithcholesterol,youareprettymuchbulletproof
fromloadsofillstuff.Unlessyouaregeneticallyverygifted,
meaninghavingextremelyefficientcholesterolcleaningmechanisn,
youhavetobeascloseasveganyoucan,anditwonthurtavoiding
theskiptheplantoilsaswell.Thosearetypicallynotconsumedin
theaforementionedplaces,afteralltheirdietisverylowinfat.
WilliamRoberts,thechiefeditorofcardiologyknowswhathetalks
about,onlybiologicallyherbivorescangetheartdisease(byfeeding
themanimalproducts),andhumanisaone.
Reply
23122011
gager(19:34:09):
Meaninglessblather,asusual.
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Reply
23122011
gager(19:34:58):
MeaninglessblatherwasdirectedatRichard.
Reply
23122011
Richardwrote:completelyfreeofmostofcancers,diabetes,obesity,
alzheimer,dementia,impotence,etc.Ifinditinterestingthat
Richardsstatesbeingfreeofcertaindiseasesandoverallvery
healthyasthemarkerforaparticulareatingpattern.Butthesame
cantpossiblybetrueforpeoplewhoexhibitedthesesamepatterns
andateanimalfoods.ThisispreciselywhatWestonAPricedid,he
foundpeoplewithhighdegreesofresistancetomoderndiseases,
especiallynotingexcellentdentalhealth.Heneverfoundasingle
groupofpeoplewhowerevegan,theyallateanimalfoodstoone
degreeoranother.Theideathathumansareherbivoresisatodds
withtraditionaleatingpatternswherecertainanimalsfoodswere
prized(organmeatsasanexample).AndthefactthatPricefigured
outitwasthefatsolublevitaminsA,D,andKasbeingthe
cornerstonenutrientsmakesitclearhumansthrivewhenusing
animalproducts.
Reply
24122011
Richard(08:08:52):
WatchtheprimitivenutritionserieofInuits(videos2728)and
Masai.Theideathatthesefolkwerehealthyontheirnaturaldietis
beyondridicilous.
Reply
4012012
Andy(14:03:05):
DoesittalkaboutMasaiandInuitswhoeataprewesterniseddiet
orawesterniseddiet?Thereisadifference.
ThereisnosignofchronicdiseaseinMasaiandInuitswhoatetheir
naturalprewesterniseddiet,butassoonastheyateawesternised
dietchronicdiseasesappear.
Andfortherecord,bothInuitandMasaisprewesterniseddietis
HIGHINANIMALFAT.
Reply
10092012
Ash(03:16:22):
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Ohsnap!
Reply
23122011
Don(20:26:21):
Richard,
WhyisitthatifYOUbelieveit,itisscience,andifyoudontits
pseudoscientificgarbage?HaveyoulookedindetailintothestudyI
noted(Iwaslookingforanhonestappraisalorrebuke,nota
flippantremarkthatteachesmenothing(atleastabouttheresearch
inquestion).WhoarethesepeoplesinAsiaandAfricayouspeakof?
Howmuchlongerdotheylivethantherestofus(sincetheyare
bulletproof)?Whofundedthestudies?Howwerethosestudies
performed?Ihavereadofseveraldisparategroupsofthelongest
livedpeoplesfromaroundtheworldwhoeatdietsthatarein
completelydifferentfromeachothermosteatinganimalproteinof
someformoranotherthough;ifIletthemknowofyourresearch
shouldtheyallchangetheirdietssoastolivelonger?Youareso
arrogantinyourremarks/responsesIfeelyoumusthaveironclad
evidenceforyourpositions(possiblyevensomeresearchyouhave
performedyourself(oratleastastronglyresearchedand
intelligentlywrittencritiqueofthealltheresearchinquestion
muchlikewhatDeniseprovides).Youargumentcomesoffas
viscerallycharged:high(understandably)onemotionbutlow,
unfortunately,onanysmokingguns.Iamaskingtobeconvinced,
notpreachedat.
Reply
23122011
Richard(20:41:32):
Don,
youshouldstartfromsquareone.Nooneistalkingaboutlongitude
here.PeopleinCentralAfricaandruralAsiandiequiteyoungin
diseasesofinfection,whenyouarelackingantiobioticsandWCyou
cannotexpecttolivelong.However,mostepidemiologicstudies,
dontworrywhohavefinancedthem,theyarenotdesignedtomake
headlines,areagematched.Thatmeans,averagelifeexpectancy
doesntmatter.Wearetalkingaboutcohortswithhundredof
thousandsofpeople,sotheyhaveplentyofpeoplefromallage
categories,despitethelowaveragelifespan.
Ifyouhearsomeonesayingcorrelationdoesnotequalcausation
runasfastyoucan.Peoplewhopushtheselinesarealwayson
agenda.Areyoufoolenoughtothinkthatpeoplewhodealwith
theseissuehavenotheardaboutaconceptthatistaughtinevery
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entrylevelstatisticscourse.Thechancesforyougettingsincere
informationfromMrsMingerarezero.Itsaboutrevengeagainst
veganism.IfIputmydogdoanalysisontheChinarawdata,it
couldntgetworsethanMingerdidit.
Anyways,startwatchingprimitivenutritionyoutubeserie,
chronologicallyfromthevideo2forwards.
Reply
23122011
Whataloadofdung.WithoutquestionyoudidnotreadDenises
critiqueoftheChinaStudy.Youjustmadeyourselflooklikean
arrogantfool.Heranalysis(startingwiththerawdata)was
scholarly,andyourpostsareshameless.
Reply
23122011
Don(22:26:42):
Thanksforyouropinion.Denise(andmanyothers)havemade
betterarguments(inmyopinion)withlessbiasoragenda(more
parenthesishere)thanIfindinyourarguments.Ifeelcomfortable
knowingIcanstillenjoythisholidayseasonwithahealthy(not
huge)portionofanimalprotein,eatenwithconfidence,noguilt,and
seasonedliberallywithanunhealthyamountofalcohol.Ireally
hopeyouhaveaHappyHolidayseasonaswell.
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(00:39:05):
>Peoplewhopushtheselinesarealwaysonagenda
>Itsaboutrevenge
Lookwhostalking.:rolleyes:
>startwatchingprimitivenutritionyoutubeserie,
Idid.Itwaspainful.Sophomoricworkatbest.Mediocrityandlack
ofinsightwrittenalloverit.Icouldhavedonebetterinhighschool.
Reallypainful.IwishIhadntwastedmytimeonthese.
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(00:30:27):
Iamaskingtobeconvinced,notpreachedat.
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Gosh;thissumsitupsonicely!Kudosforhavingnaileditdownthis
way. ThaswasalsoexactlymyfeelingbutIcouldntfindthe
wordstoexpressit.Youdid.
Reply
15032012
SylviaOnusic(17:18:36):
Mario,Thanks,veryinformative.
Reply
23122011
Richard(17:31:35):
LOL.whydontactuallywatchthosevideosbeforeyoukeep
spreadingthatcarbage.Iftheguywastotallyloonie,Iamsure
Denisewouldhavesomethingtosayaboutit,especiallyafter
vegansarethrowingpartiesbecauseofthesevideos.But,butno
response.Wouldntitberationaltofirstaddresstheissuethatare
mostclosestrelatedtoyou.Well,maybethesilenceisbetter,afterall
youamericanshavecoinedthebestsayinintheworldonceyou
areinahole,stopdigging.
Judgeyourself,besmart,dontfallforpseudoscientificBSwhich
Deniseembraces.
Reply
23122011
SamKnox(17:37:27):
HeresanAmericansayingthatyoushouldembrace,Richard:
Bettertoremainsilentandbethoughtafoolthantospeakoutand
removealldoubt.
Ellohfuckingell.
Reply
23122011
Perhapsyoushouldtakeyourownadvice.Ireadeverywordof
DenisescriticismoftheChinaStudyandCampbellssupposed
rebuttal(basicallyjustattackingDenisescredentialsandignoring
theactualarguments)andlistenedtothisclowninthevideosyou
presented.HetotallymisrepresentedDenisesanalysis.Whatshe
hassaidinhercriticismandwhathesaidshesaysaremore
differentthanchalkandcheese.Whydontyoudothesame.Read
everywordofheranalysisoftheChinastudywhichisonthisblog
(itwilltakealongwhile,butisverymuchworththetime)andif
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youthinkwhatshesaysinanywayremotelyresembleswhatthat
clowninthevideosaysshesaid,wellthenIcanthelpyou.You
justwanttobelievewhatyouwanttobelieve.
Reply
23122011
Don(17:45:15):
NoreplyfromyouonMYquestions?HmmmIknowhowyou
hatethat
Ihavesomemore:
Whosaidloonie?Whatscarbage?Vegansloveagoodparty,so?
WhosaidIwasAmerican?
Reply
24122011
Andrs(00:33:33):
Well,thisisnotDenisesfault,butagainIamgoingtocancelmy
subscriptiontocomments.Isupposevegansblogsarenotgetting
sufficienthitsthatyouhavetoretorttocontaminatewithyour
stupiditiesandrudenessthoseofothers.Perhapsyouarenotaware
thatnobodywiththebrainstounderstandwhatDenisewritesis
goingtogiveyourbabbleanysecondthought.Youradvisingusa
youtubechannelissufficienttonotwastingtimeseeingit,thanks.
Bye.
Reply
24122011
neisy(05:07:50):
HiRichard,IwatchedthefourChinaStudyvideosinthePrimitive
Nutritionseriestonightandwasntterriblyimpressed.Regarding
myChinaStudycritique,thenarratorsaysrightoffthebatIdont
havetheexpertisenortheinteresttoproperlyfactcheckher
analysisofit(minute2:10onvideo62).Itshardtoengageinan
actualdiscussionaboutthedataifhehasnteventriedlookingatit.
Next,hecriticizesHarrietHallofScienceBasedMedicineonseveral
accounts.At3:37,hementionsthepartofmycritique(asrelayedby
HarrietHall)thatquestionswhyCampbelldidntexplorethe
wheat/heartdiseaserelationshipinhisbook,sinceapparentlythis
linkistoofarfetchedtoevenentertainasapossibility.Illassume
thenarratorneversawthepaperCampbellhimselfpublished
(Associationofdietaryfactorsandselectedplasmavariableswith
sexhormonebindingglobulininruralChinesewomen)that
lookedattheChinaStudydataandfound:
SignificantdifferencesinthedietofruralChinesepopulations
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SignificantdifferencesinthedietofruralChinesepopulations
studiedsuggestthatwheatconsumptionmaypromotehigher
insulin,highertriacylglycerol,andlowerSHBGvalues.Sucha
profileisconsistentwiththatcommonlyassociatedwithobesity,
dyslipidemia,diabetes,hypertension,andheartdisease.Wheat
maybeuniqueinitsrelativecapacitytostimulateinsulin.The
relativedifferencesinthefattyacidproportionsand/oramylose
contentforwheatandricemaythusberesponsibleformodulating
serumSHBG,triacylglycerols,andinsulin.
Next,thenarratorsays:
InreferencetoColinCampbell,she[HarrietHall]dismisseshis
amazingassertionthatoveraperiodofyears,someprovincesof
Chinadidntreportasingleheartattackinanyoneunder64,even
thoughtheirpopulationswereinthetensofthousands.Thatdoesnt
tellusanything,shesays.Thanksfortheseriousanalysis,doc.
Here,hesreferencingthecountylabeledPDintheChinaStudy,
whichrecordedzerodeathsfromischaemicheartdiseaseinwomen
duringthesurveyyears,andonly3deathsper100,000formenat
leastintheChinaStudyII
(http://www.ctsu.ox.ac.uk/~china/monograph/Mono_Mortality.pdf);
maybeitwaszeroformenaswellintheearliersurvey.However,
wecanseethiscountyalsohadveryhighratesofstroke(page227
intheabovePDF)224per100,000formen,comparedtoonly40
per100,000formenintheUSatthesametime.Thiscountyalsohad
highratesforotherformsofvasculardisease,suggestingsomeof
theischaemicheartdiseasedeathsmightvebeenrecordedunder
thewrongname.Imnotsurethezeroheartattacksreallyproves
theyrehealthyiftheyredyingalotmorefromrelateddiseases.
HethencriticizesHarrietHallforsayingGaryTaubesdebunkedthe
connectionbetweensaturatedfatandheartdisease,pointingout
thatGarysworkhasbeenquestionedbyotherbloggerssuchas
EvelynatCarbsanityandStephanGuyenetatWholeHealthSource.
TheironyisthatStephanalsovocallyrejectsthedietheart
hypothesissoifthenarratorfindsStephansblogcredibleenough
totrusthiscritiquesofGaryTaubes,heshouldalsofindStephans
blogcredibleenoughtotrusthisnumerouspostsdisassemblingthe
saturatedfat=heartdiseasetheory.
Italsoseemsoddthathesuggestsweacceptnonpeerreviewed
blogpostscriticizingTaubes,butnotacceptmynonpeerreviewed
blogpostscriticizingCampbell.
ThenarratorthencriticizesHarrietHallforsuggestingthatBill
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ThenarratorthencriticizesHarrietHallforsuggestingthatBill
Clintoncanteatavocadosanymoreandindicatesherresearchof
Clintonsheartdiseasereversaldietissloppy.Hesays,Shealso
thinksonemustrenounceavocadostomeettherecommendationsof
thesedoctorsforsomereason,andthenspendsawhilequoting
fromplantbaseddietbookstryingtorefuteher.Considering
CaldwellEsselstyn(Clintonsmaindoctor)believesallfats
(includingplantfats)causeendothelialdamageandexcludesthem
fromhisdietplan,Harrietsstatementisabsolutelyaccurate.You
canseeEsselstynsrecommendationtoavoidavocadosinthe
excerptfromPreventandReverseHeartDiseaseonhiswebsite:
http://www.heartattackproof.com/excerpt.htmnearthebottomin
thebulletedlists:Generally,youcannoteatnutsoravocados.
Esselstynstatesyoucanonlyeatavocadosinverylimitedamounts
ifyoudonthaveheartdisease,butBillClintondoeshaveheart
disease,whichisthewholereasonhesonthisdietinthefirstplace.
Sohescertainlyinthenoavocategory,andHarrietHallwas
correctinstatinghecanteatthem.(Thisallmayseemlikeavery
nitpickypoint,butthevideonarratorseemedtofinditimportant
enoughtodwellon.)
Thesecondvideo(#63)spendsthefirstfiveminuteorsotalking
aboutmypersonalhistoryratherthandiscussinganydata,aswell
astakingaliteralinterpretationofsomeAHSslidesthatwere
essentiallyjokes(i.e.,vegansplottingworlddomination).Isuppose
humordoesntalwaystranslatewellfromPowerPointslidessoI
wontblamehimforthat.
Atthesixminutemark,hequotesaparagraphfrommyChina
StudyresponsequestioningwhyCampbelldidntmentionthe
associationsbetweenheartdiseaseandwheat,corn,barley,etc.that
weremuchhigherthananythinghefoundwithanimalproducts.
Thenarratorstatesthatthisiswhereheramateurstatusbecomesa
problem.Thisseemstobemoremisinterpretationofmywriting,
becauseIwasntsuggestingthosefoodsnecessarilycauseheart
diseasejustthatCampbellsfocusonweakercorrelationsinthe
data(andtendencytoviewthemasshowingcausality)between
animalfoodsanddiseaserevealhisbias.
Video64discussesanotherstudyIbloggedaboutthatfounda
vegetablericheatingpatternwasassociatedwithweightgainin
China.Here,thenarratorcriticizesthistypeofstudyforusing
artificiallyassembledeatingpatternsbasedonunreliablerecall
surveysratherthandirectfoodmeasurements,and(inthenext
video)callssuchstudiesimpenetrableanduseless.However,back
invideo62atthe5:07mark,hecitedthis*exact*sametypeofstudy
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asevidencethatafruitricheatingpatternwasassociatedwith
lesscardiovasculardisease,stroke,anddiabetesinChinathana
meatricheatingpattern.Heacceptstheseresultsasevidencefor
thesuperiorityofplantbaseddietswithoutpointingoutthe
methodologicalflawslikehedoesinvideo64.Doesheconsiderthis
studydesignreliablewhenitsupportshisviews,anduselessand
impenetrablewhenitdoesnt?
Isortofskimmedthroughvideo65becauseitdidntseemworthit
tokeepcritiquing.
AsfortheAncelKeysvideos,I*really*appreciatethatthePlant
Positiveguypointedoutthefrequentmisunderstandingsabout
Keysandthesixcountrygraphthatareoftenrepeatedwithinthe
paleocommunity.However,headmitstonothavingaccesstothe
YerushalmyandHilleboepaper,anditlookslikehesmainly
referencingtwographsfromitthatwerereproducedinalaterpaper
byStamlerin1958.
Asaresult,heleavesoutsomeofthemostimportantpointsofthe
Y&Hpaper,includingtheunreliabilityofusingfoodbalancedata,
theauthorsexplanationsofwhyanimalfoodandfatintakecanbe
correlatedwithheartdiseaseinanoncausalwayduetoits
associationwithacountrysindustrialandmedicaldevelopment,
andthediscussionofwhattheinverseassociationbetween
fat/animalproteinanddeathfromothercausesreallymeans.
Also,thevideonarratortriestoselectivelydropcountriesoffthe22
countrygraphtomakethefat/heartdiseaseassociationlook
stronger:hisrationaleisthatNorway,Denmark,theNetherlands,
andSwedenwhichhadhighfatintakesbutlowishheartdisease
mortalitydontbelongontherebecausetheirheartdiseaserates
wereprobablystillrecoveringfromplummetingduringthewar
years.Yetoneoftheabstractsheflashestosupportthisideasays
pointblankDenmarkdidnthaveanyreductioninheartdisease
mortalityduringthewar,sohisrationalefordeletingitsdatapoint
isbunk,andhedoesntexplainwhyothercountriesaffectedbywar
rations(likeFinlandandAustria)shouldstayonthegraph.
Likewise,ifhewantstodeletedatapoints,hedalsoneedtogetrid
ofJapanandFranceandItalybecausetheynotoriouslyunder
reporteddeathfromheartdisease.
Theresalotmore,butagain,Idontfeellikeitsworthwhileto
critiquethisparticularvideoseries.Ifhecreatesatranscriptofthe
videos,Idbemorewillingtoprunethroughthat,becauseatleastI
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couldskimthroughthehugesectionsofthevideosthatarebasically
nothingbutpersonalattacksonvariouspaleofiguresandlow
carbers.
Reply
24122011
Grok(05:17:46):
ThankyouforthatoneDenise
Reply
24122011
neisy(05:26:31):
WhatbetterwaytospendChristmasEveEvethanarguingonline?
Reply
24122011
Grok(06:05:16):
Guesssomebodysgottodoit.Ivegivenuponit.
Sinceyouhaventchangedthetimeinyourblogsettings,therecord
willforevershowittoactuallybeChristmasEve
Reply
24122011
Don(15:25:16):
Thanksfordoingit.ItisMUCHappreciatedregardlessofthe
date(s).
Reply
24122011
Richard(08:39:21):
Fairwell,Denise
whenwedowegetyourinterpretionpublishedonascientific
platform,peerreviewprocessencouragesforscientificrigorosity,as
yousuredidknowbynow.Consideringthesheeraggressivenessof
theanimalbaseddietpromotersIamsincerelypuzzledhowcome
nowonehaspublishedyourinterpretation/lessonsfromtheChina
Projectrawdata.LOL!StillWaiting.
Youdontseriouslybelieveskepticsaregoingtoinvestreadinga
workbyladywhothinksLierreKeithsbookisgreatpiece.
IseeyoucleverlymanagedtosidestepfromthefactthatCampbells
studyisshortfromunique.
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becauseatleastIcouldskimthroughthehugesectionsofthe
videosthatarebasicallynothingbutpersonalattacksonvarious
paleofiguresandlowcarbers
LOL..comon,thiswasamuchneededcriticallookonthescience
behindlowcarbers.Irecommendeveryonethevideos23for
starters.Youcannotargueagainstthattheclipsabout,letsayMark
SissonWestonPriceFoundationwerenotfunny.Maybeyournext
blogpostcouldbeaboutrefutingtheallegedgoodhealthofInuits
(videos2728)orMasai(vid29),Iseeyouallanimalbaseddiet
pushersgotitwrongonthoseaswell.
Reply
24122011
Hmm,seemslikeadoublestandardyouveposedhere.Youwont
takeDeniseseriouslybecauseofpeerreviewbutyouwantusto
watchacoupleofvideosonYouTube(byaguywhobyadmission
doesnthavetheexpertisenortheinteresttoproperlyfactcheck
thedata)whichImguessingarealsonotpeerreviewedand
publishedinscientificjournals.
Reply
24122011
Richard(09:53:36):
No,notatalldoublestandards,mostoftheideasexpressedbythe
paleocommunityarenotpeerreviewed,Ravnskovsbookisnot
peerreviewed,theideathatInuitsandMasaistayhealthyontheir
naturaldietsisnotapeerreviewed,Keysallegedcrimeisnotpeer
reviewed,etc.Soitsbasicallysortingoutmisconceptionsand
psedoscience.Highlyrecommendedchannel.Ifitwasntthen
Mingerwouldhavehardlysharedanyoftheideasexpressedinit
forherreaders.
Anyways,whatdowehave?Animalproteincarriesahuge
correlationwithheartdiseaseinthe22countrydata,IntheY&H
paperCaloriesfromproteinhadvaluesofr=0.709with
arteriosclerotic&degenerativeheartdisease.
Thefactthatvegetableproteinhadhighercorrelationwithnon
heartdiseasecategoryasopposedtoanimalproductsisirrelevant.
Thatcorrelationhasnobiologicalplausibility.
HighplantconsumptioninEuropeatthetimewasaproxyforpoor
socioeconomicstatusandeverythingthatfollowedfromit:poor
sanitation,pooraccesstohealthcare,etc.Thisshouldbereversed
bynow,highplantconsumptioninEuropetodaywouldbe
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correlatedwithhighsocioeconomicstatusandeverytingthat
followsfromthat,betterhealthcare,higherlifeexpectancy,etc.
Andletusnotforgotthatheartdiseasewasandstillisthemost
commondiseaseoftheWest.Atherosclerosis,cancerand
rheumatoidarthrisisisprevalenteverywherewhereanimal
productsarehighlyconsumed(theInuitsandMasaimakesno
exception)andreverseistruewherestarchesareonhighdemand
(CentralAfrica,ruralAsia,PapuaNewGuinea,etc)
Avoidingsaturatedfatandreplacingthatwithfruitsornon
processedstarchesisaveryclevermove.Caloriesfrom
carbohydrateshadthelowestpositivecorrelationofall:0.305with
arteriosclerotic&degenerativeheartdisease.
Reply
24122011
Thatcorrelationhasnobiologicalplausibility.Thatjustshows
yourbias.ThefactthatdatafromtheChinaStudypointstoavegan
sourceoffood(wheat)asastrongcorrelatewithofheartproblems
shouldgiveyoupauseaboutthatassertion.
Attheendoftheday,themassiveriseincancersandheartdisease
duringthecourseofthe20thcenturyisnowsupposedlycausedby
OLDFOODS.Foodshumanshavebeenconsumingforaverylong
time.Itjustdoesntwork.Whathashappened,anddocumented
veryclearlybyPrice,wastherapidchangeinhumandietary
patternsleadingrapidlytodegenerativediseases,markedskeletal
changesandterribledentalhealth.OLDFOODSdidnotcausethis
rapidchangeinpoorhealth.Itwasabandoningthesefoodpatterns
infavorofmodernizedprocessedfoods.
Seriously,thefactthatveganfoods(sugar,refinedwheat,vegetable
oils,etc)canputoneatriskforheartproblemsisactually
exemplifiedbysomeinterestingresearchontheMasaifromthe
early1970s.
Theshortofitisthatduringa15to20yearperiodwhenmenexist
almostexclusivelyonmeat,milkandbloodtheyhavelow
cholesterolandverylowratesofatherosclerosis.Whiletherewere
nodeathsfromheartattacks,ariseinatherosclerosisparallelstheir
reentryintotherestofMasaiculturewhichhadaccesstoprocessed
foods.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/06/masaiand
atherosclerosis.html
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Youcanseethepapersandgraphsabovealongwithamore
thoroughrundown.TheissueisthattheMasaibegandeveloping
problemsastheyabandonedtheirtraditional,nonWesternized
diets.
Reply
24122011
Richard(13:04:39):
^DontworryIknowtheoldstory,thatswhyaskedMingertodoa
refutalaboutit,sothatyoudknowasmuchasIdo.
PrimitiveNutritionserieonInuits(2728)andMasaiishighly
recommended(2930).
AtherosclerosiswasobservedeveninancientEgyptianMummies,
thehairmolecyleanalysisshowedthemtohaveeatenloadsofreal
food,meatandeggsthatis.
WestonPriceFoundationismeatlobbyingfoundation,andheck
yeah,theyportrayanicepictureofdairyandmeat.Whatarethe
oddsthatyougetsincereinformationfromsick,confusedand
emotionalwheathatersuchasMinger?Itell,youtheoddsarenext
tonothing.OnethingIgiveher,sheisverygoodinsidetrackingthe
issueathand(heramateurstatus)topinpointinconsistencieson
otherdebators,butdontbefooledbythefacade.
Reply
24122011
Shehasconsistentlymadeyoulooklikeafoolandyourvideos
criticizingherChinastudyworkarelittlemorethancharacter
assassinationwithnosubstantiation.
Thefactisyoudontlikeherworknotbecauseitisflawed,but
becauseitconflictswithyourbeliefsystem.
Insomewaysitisalmostamusing.Mostpeoplelikeyourselfwho
attackDeniseandotherswhosupportadietthatincludesanimal
productstrytoportraythemasnutswhowanttoessentiallyliveon
meatproducts.Forthemostpart,thatiscompletenonsense.They
arepeoplewhohaveaseriousconcernabouthealthandwellness
andwhobasicallyjusteatrealfoodandeschewall
manufacturedfood.Thismeanstheyeatanabundanceof
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vegetables,somefruit,meat,eggs,nutsetcTheyeschewgrains,
vegetableoilsandsugarandshockingly,theyareextremely
healthyimaginethat.
YourcriticismoftheWestonAPricefoundationisverylame.
Suggestingitissomekindofindustriallobbygroupshowsyou
haventlookedintoitoneiota.Itisasmallunderfunded
organizationthatsupportsfamilyfarms,pasturefedorganicmeats
(particularlyorganmeat)andrailsagainstlargecommercialfarming
operationsthatforcefeedbeefcorn,loadthemwithantibioticsand
growthhormoneetcYesthepowerfulliverandkidneyfamily
farmlobby.
IfyouactuallytookthetimetoreadanythingDenisehaswrittenon
theChinastudyandtoactuallywatchherHowtowinan
argumentwithavegetarianvideowhichwasinlargepartvery
humorous,youmightactuallybeabletocontributesomethingto
thediscussionotherthanuselessblather.
Reply
24122011
Richard(14:21:36):
MostpeoplelikeyourselfwhoattackDeniseandotherswho
supportadietthatincludesanimalproductstrytoportraythemas
nutswhowanttoessentiallyliveonmeatproducts.Forthemost
part,thatiscompletenonsense.Theyarepeoplewhohaveaserious
concernabouthealthandwellnessandwhobasicallyjusteatreal
foodandeschewallmanufacturedfood
Oh,comonIamsureDeniseisanicelady,butletsbehonest.You
havetoquiteablueeyedtoexpectherdeliveringsincere
information.Heronlyandsoleconcerninthisworldisthatpeople
keeploadingthemselveswithanimals.Sheisnotagoodperson.All
dietsgoesexceptveganism.
Reply
24122011
YouobviouslyknowabsolutelynothingaboutwhatDenisestands
for.Youareeitherjusttrolling,oryouareacompleteidiotwho
wonttaketimetoinformhimselfinanywayaboutwhatheargues.
Denisebarelyeatsanyanimalproductsbytheway.Thevast
majorityofherdietisplantbased.Itsbadenoughthatyouwalk
aroundinignorantbliss,buttrytodoitwithoutassassinating
someonescharacterwhoseintellectabsolutelydwarfsyourown.
10092012
81/233
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Ash(03:59:21):
adhomonymattacksarepointlessandmakeyoulookignorant.
10092012
Ash(03:56:57):
Indeed.
Reply
24122011
gager(18:22:24):
.thehairmolecyleanalysisshowedthemtohaveeatenloadsof
realfood,meatandeggsthatis.
Howisthispossible?
Reply
4012012
Andy(14:57:39):
Egyptiansactuallyhadadiethighingrains.
Attheendofthedayyouareaveganwithanagenda.Mostofyour
postsdonotmakesenseexcepttodemoniseanimalproducts!
Reply
24122011
Richard(08:53:24):
Minger,thenoblepromoterofanimals.Iamsureyoucanbeproud
ofhavingapositiveinfluencetotheworld,toenvironmenttoour
ecosystem;makingsurepeopleaintforgettingtopileuponthose
animals.LOL
UNurgesglobalmovetomeatanddairyfreediet
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/unreport
meatfreediet
Reply
10092012
Ash(04:18:03):
Richardstopusingadhomonymattacks,ittotallydiscreditsany
argumentyouaremaking.TheUNisdodgyandhasanagenda,i
wouldntputmuchtrustinanythingtheysay.
Ithinkmostofusonthisforumareallforanimalwelfareandare
againstfactoryfarmingmethodsandartificiallyfedanimal
products.Stoppinghumansfromeatingotheranimalsisliketrying
tostopaLionoraWolffromeatingotheranimals.
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TherearealsomanyothercriticsofthechinastudybesidesDenise.
Dofurtherresearchinsteadgettingemotionalandusingpersonal
attacksagainstpeoplejustbecausetheydifferinopinionfromyou.
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(15:09:29):
Irecommendeveryonethevideos23forstarters
Irecommendeveryonetoavoidwastinghis/hertimewiththese
videos.WhicharenotreallyvideosBYW,justapowerpointlike
presentationwithavoiceover.
Theyareveryamateurishandbasicallyjustandopinionated,
superficialand(Ilikeotrepeatit..)sophomorichighschoolwork.
TheonethingthatIdolikewiththem,islinkedtomyoldbeliefthat
theworstenemiesofanideaarenotitsdetractors,butitspoor
defenders.Andtheseareverypoordefenders!
Reply
24122011
Don(15:31:43):
Noplease,fairwellRichardandyouradhominemattacks.Itis
obviousyoudonotlikeusomnivores.Whytrytosaveus,then?
Whydontyoujustletusshuffleoff,draggingourknuckles,toour
earlydeaths?
Reply
24122011
Richard(17:58:07):
Thatcertainlysoundslikeatemptatingthough.Ifyouareidiot
enoughtolistenthesesaturatedfatisgoodforyoubloggers,
maybeyouactuallydeservetogetoneofthosesymptonfreeleathal
strokes.
However,fortheenvironmentssake,Iwishpeoplecouldcutdown
theanimalfoods.
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(18:10:24):
However,fortheenvironmentssake,Iwishpeoplecouldcutdown
theanimalfoods.
Animalfoods?Nonmoncher,youmeanmeat.Idontseewhy
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butter,dairyandeggs,iffrompasturedanimals(andnotfrompoor
sickgrainsfedanimalsinCAFO),cantbeenvironmentally
sustainable.
Ifyouareidiotenoughtolistenthesesaturatedfatisgoodfor
youbloggers,maybeyouactuallydeservetogetoneofthose
symptonfreeleathalstrokes.
Yes,yes,wedo,wedo!
Justletusdie!
Reply
24122011
Richard(21:11:31):
butter,dairyandeggs,iffrompasturedanimals(andnotfrompoor
sickgrainsfedanimalsinCAFO),cantbeenvironmentally
sustainable
Animalhusbandryisinherently,nomatterofthefeedingpractise,
alwaysunsustainable,andadistresstoourecologicsystem.
Somethingwe7billionpeoplecannotafford.
Reply
24122011
gager(21:32:21):
alwaysunsustainable,andadistresstoourecologicsystem.
Somethingwe7billionpeoplecannotafford.
Thatsthebiggestloadofnonsenseyet.Unrestrainedpopulation
growthwouldeventuallymakeanysystemunsustainable.Idiot.
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(23:08:51):
alwaysunsustainable
Thatismereopinion.Bringontheevidence.
Reply
30122011
FinnegansWake(18:37:59):
Thatismereopinion.Bringontheevidence.
84/233
11/20/2014
OhLORD,noNowRichardwillstartdirectingyoutoabunchof
othermoronicvideos!
Makeitstop!
Reply
14012012
Anonymous(07:48:05):
Richard,
YousaidAnimalhusbandryisinherently,nomatterthefeeding,
alwaysunsustainable,andadistresstoourecologicalsystem..
Thereareplacesthatareunsuitableforgrowingfruits,vegetable,
andgrain,yetcertainforagecouldbegrownthere.NewYorkstate
isanexample.
Peters,Cj,FickGW,WilkinsJL.Testingacompletedietmodelfor
estimatingthelandresourcerequirementsoffoodconsumptionand
agriculturalcarryingcapacity:TheNewYorkStateexample.
RenewableAgricultureandFoodSystems.2007;22(2):145153
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=9C835D9C1E6111D4C8790D0C4CBC
fromPage=online&aid=1091328
BelowisaquotebyChristianPeters,M.S.02,Ph.D.07.ACornell
postdoctoralassociateincropandsoilsciencesandleadauthorofa
researchstudy,publishedinthejournalRenewableAgricultureand
FoodSystems,examiningthelandrequirementsofcompletediets.
Theresearcherscompared42dietswiththesamenumberofcalories
andacoreofgrains,fruits,vegetablesanddairyproducts(using
onlyfoodsthatcanbeproducedinNewYorkstate),butwith
varyingamountsofmeat(fromnoneto13.4ouncesdaily)andfat
(from20to45percentofcalories)todetermineeachdiets
agriculturallandfootprint.
Surprisingly,however,avegetariandietisnotnecessarilythemost
efficientintermsoflanduse,saidPeters.
Thereasonisthatfruits,vegetablesandgrainsmustbegrownon
highqualitycropland,heexplained.Meatanddairyproducts
fromruminantanimalsaresupportedbylowerquality,butmore
widelyavailable,landthatcansupportpastureandhay.Alarge
85/233
11/20/2014
poolofsuchlandisavailableinNewYorkstatebecausefor
sustainableuse,mostfarmlandrequiresacroprotationwithsuch
perennialcropsaspastureandhay.
Eventhoughamoderatefatplantbaseddietwithalittlemeatand
dairyusesmorelandthantheallvegetariandiet.Itfeedsmore
people(ismoreefficient)becauseitusesmorepastureland,whichis
widelyavailable.
http://cce.cornell.edu/Ag/Documents/PDFs/Land%20Efficient%20Diet.pdf
MiriamGoler09,presidentofFarmtoCornellexplainedthe
importanceoftheenergyaspectoftheagriculturalfootprint.
MuchlandinNewYorkStateisnotsuitableforgrowingrow
crops.Forexample,iflandistoosteep,erosionandsoillosswillbe
amajorproblemifyoutrytotillit.However,someofthislandmay
besuitableforgrowingforagecrops,whichcanbeusedtograze
livestock.Therefore,ifweusethislandinitsmostproductiveway,
weneedtobeeatingsomemeatinordertomaximizethenumberof
peoplethatarefed.
http://cornellsun.com/node/25285
Reply
14012012
Wizzu(14:18:20):
Greatlink,thanksAnonymous.
Reply
24122011
gager(18:19:46):
Ivebutcheredquiteafewanimalsandtheywerenevermistreated.
AllfarmanimalsIhaveseenhavealwaysbeenwelltreated.Thatis
whyveryfewrunaway.Chickens,goats,pigswillalwaysreturnto
theirhome.Cowsjustwanderuntiltheywanttogetmilkedand
themmooloudlyuntiltheyarefound.
Reply
24122011
Don(19:15:16):
Itsnotalwayssocutanddried:
http://theconversation.edu.au/orderingthevegetarianmealtheres
moreanimalbloodonyourhands4659
Andnamecallingshowsthestrengthofyourarguments.
86/233
11/20/2014
Reply
10092012
Ash(04:27:16):
Andagainwiththeadhominemattacks!AlsoRicharduseaspell
checker!
Ithinktherearemuchbiggerproblemsaffectingtheenvironment
besidesanimalfoodproduction.e.g.HAARP,miningindustry,toxic
waste,plasticsetc.
Reply
6012012
Jared(04:28:24):
HiRichard,
WhenisDr.CampbellgoingtopublishhisresultsintheChina
Studyunderpeerreview?
WherearethepeerreviewedstudiesfromtheChinaProjectlinking
animalproteinanddisease?
Whendoyouthinkhellgetaroundtothat?
WhyisitexactlythatDr.Campbellhadtowriteanonpeer
reviewedbooktolinkanimalproteintodiseaseinsteadofusingthe
ChinaProjectdatatowritepeerreviewedresearch?
IreallydontseehowVegansconstantlymisstheironyofcalling
Denisescritiqueoutfornotbeingpeerreviewed.TheChina
Studyisnotpeerreviewed!!!!
Ifthislinkissostrong,isitreallythathardtopublishpeerreviewed
researchshowingit?
Reply
26122011
Scott(05:32:19):
Baloney.
MostHeartAttackPatientsCholesterolLevelsDidNotIndicate
CardiacRisk
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090112130653.htm
Reply
26122011
Itssointerestingthatinsteadofmakingthemstopandconsiderthat
87/233
11/20/2014
Itssointerestingthatinsteadofmakingthemstopandconsiderthat
theirhypothesismaynotberight,theyjustassumethatthe
cholesterolisntlowenoughyet.
Reply
23122011
Richard(14:17:52):
And,no!Denisedidnotcomeupthis,shemerelyjustrecitedthe
primitivenutritionserieonKeysandputupherownpseudoscience
onthemix.VideosonKeys,3639.Shegotnailedtotheextent,she
hadnothingtosayaboutthevideosaboutherself.
Primitivenutritionseriesishighlyrecommendedtoallwhowantsto
explorefurtherfromthepaleoblogopsphere,includingMinger.
Reply
14012012
Anonymous(07:27:07):
Sheresponded.
Reply
23122011
Richard(14:48:14):
Sorry,Denise,nottomeantospamyourblog,butmorething.Why
didntjustcopypastetheprimitivenutritionvideosonKeysand
sharedthemwiththereaders.Afterall95%ofyourtextcamefrom
them.Instead,youputpeopletoenduretohorriblemammuthpost.
Besides,nowtheresariskthatpeopleactuallythinkyouaremore
thanjustasimple,sillyandconfusedpersona
Sinceyoudidntdoit,Ifeelitsmyobligation.DonMateszcertainly
sharedthevideos,andnotpretenthewasexpressinghisownwork.
Moreover,puttingyourreaderstogothesevideos,theydlearn
heapsofotherthingsaswell:torealizewhatmessthistheseanimal
basedfaddietpromotersare,andtostayawayfromRavsnkovs
book,unlesslookingforcomedy.
88/233
11/20/2014
89/233
11/20/2014
Reply
23122011
Richard(14:56:51):
Shit,justwhenIalmostpromisedtonottocontributeanymore,I
rememberedthis;thehighmortalityofhighfatmeateatershasbeen
showninmultiplecohorts,fromfirstrate,AAAlevel,topsnotch
countries.Unlessitwasthewholewheatbunintheburgers.LOL
90/233
11/20/2014
Reply
23122011
WoutMertens(15:34:34):
ProofthatAncelKeyswasnotanubervillainbutonlyahuman
tryinghisbesttofurtherthelotofmankind.Aah,somethingabout
goodintentionsandaroad?
Thankyouforthis!
PS:Considermakingthesehugeblogpostsavailableinepisodic
form,sothatweyourloyalreaderscanchewonalittleatatime.It
meshesbetterwithatleastmyblogreadinghabits
Reply
23122011
Richard(17:19:41):
AncelKeyswasofcourseright,animalproductsinduceheart
disease.Thefactthatplantproteinhadhighercorrelationwithall
aroundmortalityhasnobiologicalfact,itmerelyreflectspoorsocio
economicstatus.ThemoreplantconsumedatEuropeatthetime,
thepoorertheconsumer.ThismaybehardtounderstandinUS,but
industrialanimalfoodinEuropeisntthatoldthing.Thesocial
differencesinEuropeduringthepostwarandpriorerawerehuge.
Thepoorplantconsumersinruralpartsofthecountryhardlyhad
eventhelooatthehouse,letaloneaccesstoqualityhealthcare.In
mycountryitwasanissuetobragaboutifyourfamilyhadporkof
butterduringthewarandimmeadiatepostwaryears,itwasonly
91/233
11/20/2014
somethingthattherichfolkhad.Thefactthatpoorpeoplehave
highermortalityinnonheartrelatedcategoriesisperfectly
understandable.
Reply
23122011
Richard(17:21:17):
Hasnobiologicalplausibilty,thatis
Thepoorplantconsumersinruralpartsofthecountry
atthecontinent,thatis.
Reply
23122011
anna(17:51:15):
Thepoorplantconsumersinruralpartsofthecountry
Notonlyinruralparts.Inmanyfamilies,poultry/meatwasrationed
withinfamilies,andbasicallywenttochildren.ThatswhyIasked
abovetolookatthedateofKeyssgraph.
ThiswhatIvenoticedinsomediscussionslackofhistorical
context.ItseemstobecomicalwhenIhearpeoplediscussingwith
certaintythedetailsofpaleoliveswhenfranklywecanknowvery
little,butignoringrecenthistorywhichinsomecasesisatleast
historyofcloserelativesifnotourown.
Yes,significantpartofEuropehadadifferentnutritionpatternthan
theU.S.inthe1940s/early50s.
Reply
23122011
mhanch(19:08:08):
Greatpostasusual!
Reply
23122011
JoeAnstett(20:44:18):
Oh,ButIlovedhatinghimsosomuch.Youjustruinedmy
Christmas.
Reply
23122011
ROFLOL
Reply
23122011
BenjaminMorgan(21:32:07):
92/233
11/20/2014
IwanttomakeaTshirtthatsaysCorrelationisntacucumber
DeniseMinger.ForsomereasonImthinkingitshouldbeagreen
shirtmustbethecucumber.
Reply
23122011
Yes MaybeIlldojustthatoneofthesedays&seeifanyoneI
meetonthestreetlaughs
Reply
23122011
BenjaminMorgan(22:25:31):
Howaboutthis?
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product2.aspx?
from=CustomDesigner&number=605903231
Reply
24122011
Thatissureeasy
Thegreencolorisverycucumberishtoo.
Reply
27122011
JackieHunt(13:31:12):
Isthisforreal?CanIreallybuythisTshirt??Iwantone!!
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(00:48:38):
*LOL*Excellent
Cometomystreet.Illbetheonlyonetolaugh,though.
Theydontevenknowwhatacucumberis,letaloneacorrelation.
DeniseMingercouldbesomebrandofchocolatecookies.The
wholepicturewouldbeasmysterioustomyneighbours,asa
chinesereceipefromthe15thcentury.
Reply
23122011
Eddy(21:43:06):
Denise,thankyoufordedicatingsomuchtimetogenuinelytryingto
setthepicturestraight,onthisandallyourposts.Iloveyouare
alwaysgenuinelyunbiased.Youhavechangedtheworldofhealth
forever,andforthebetter.
93/233
11/20/2014
Andyoucantalkaboutreallyserioustechnicalstuff,andstillmake
everyonesmile
Reply
24122011
ViolaToniolo(00:20:20):
IwishRichardwouldlearnhowtowriteandspell
Reply
24122011
Aaron(03:17:40):
HecouldalsomaybelookintotheAustralianaboriginalpopulation,
whohavesomeofthelowestnaturallyoccurringcholesterollevels
coupledwithveryhighincidencesofcardiovasculardisease.Buthis
headmightexplode.
Reply
24122011
Richard(09:56:14):
Ireadandwritein4languages,howmanylanguagesdoyou
master?WhatIcantdoistyping.
Reply
24122011
anna(13:48:34):
Richard,Iamwithyouonthat.Letmeexplain.Thereisatleastone
generationofAmericanswhoweretaughtinaninterestingway:
learnhowtowritecorrectMANIPULATIVE(CYAandthelike)
sentencesandyouaresetforlifeandsuccessincorporate
America.Youdonthavetoknowanythingelse.Ah,andremember
tosmilepermanentlyandidioticallyandmillionsandbillionsandof
coursetheautomaticadmirationoftheidioticcrowdisallyours.
Simple.Easy.Idiotic.
drannawritinginher7thlanguage
Reply
24122011
anna(14:02:15):
Ithinkitsshouldbeobviousthatindividualsraisedinthismanner
dontknowthatEnglishISNTtheonlylanguageintheworld(they
dontknowanything)andofcoursehavenoexperienceoflearning
asingleforeignlanguage.Whywouldtheydoitifwe,thebestand
thebrightest,needonlythemasteryofmanipulativememo
writing.InEnglish,ofcourse.
Reply
24122011
94/233
11/20/2014
anna(14:17:44):
NotknowingthatEnglishisnttheonlylanguageisonlyoneaspect.
Notknowingthedifferencesbetweendifferentmediums,
differencesbetweenspontaneous,emotionalandandpolished,
calculatedwritingetc.issomethingelse.Whatiscommonis
ignorance,ignorance,ignorance.
Reply
24122011
anna(14:26:33):
Thisstressoncorrectnessofgrammariscommonparticularly
amonggeeks,narrow,verynarroweducated,withhugecomplexes
whotendtostrikeculturalposes:YouseeIknowthatthis
incorrect.Iamsowelleducated.No,youarenot.
Reply
24122011
Richard(21:29:09):
@Anna
doyoublogorsomething?Iamfascinatedtolearntowritebetter,
whatyoujustsaidmadehugesensetome,andalongthelinesIve
beenthinkingbutcouldntquitenailitbymyself.Withtheskillof
writingyoucanbe24yearsofage,graduatedfromaworthlessred
brickuni,havenotraininginmedicinenorstatisticandstillfool
bunchofpeopletobelieveyouveactuallydebunkedapeer
reviewedbodyofwork.Thatssointriguing.IsthereawayIcanget
intouchwithyou?Iamcurioustoknowandlearnmore.
Reply
24122011
neisy(21:40:59):
Richard,yourewelcometoposthereifyouhavesomethingto
contributeaboutdataIvepresented,specificpointsinthePrimitive
Nutritionvideos(notjustwatchthesevideos,endofdiscussion),
orotherrelativetopics.Partofmygoalfor2012istokeepthe
commentssectionofthisblogmorehospitableforpeoplewhowant
tohaveanintelligentdialogue,andrightnow,youredefinitely
skirtingtrollterritory.
Feelfreetoexpressyourangertowardsmeviaemail.Ifyoukeep
doingithereIllbanya.
Reply
25122011
Richard(00:18:34):
Sorryforofftopicposts,andapologiesforwritingworthlessred
95/233
11/20/2014
Sorryforofftopicposts,andapologiesforwritingworthlessred
brickuni,totallyuncalledmove.Everyaccreditededucational
institutiondeservesmyutmostrespect.
Reply
25122011
James(23:53:33):
DeniseIseemtobedevelopingthehabit,butIwouldseriously
considerfollowingthroughonyourthreat..Weliveinademocratic
societywherewealloweverybodytobepartoftheprocessof
communicatinghis/herideas.Iftheseideascontributetothegeneral
discussionsomuchthebetter.Iftheyhinderthediscussion,ifthey
becomedetrimental,iftheybecomeadhominem,iftheycause
otherstorefrain,Ithinkyouhavetheright,maybethedutytoexpel.
WewillotherwisebelosingvaluablecontributionsandasI
mentionedinmycommentstodr.FeinmanandWizzu,Ihavea
feelingthatthisonlyjustthebeginningofamuchwiderdiscussion.
FurthermoreRichardhasshownheisnotinterestedinthat
discussionatall.IcoulduseaparsprototoforsuchapersonbutI
willstopshort.
Reply
26122011
gager(00:07:39):
James,Denisehastheabsoluterighttototallysensoreverything
postedonherblog.Thereisnodemocracyatthissite.Sheisin
control.Freedomofspeechmeansthegovernmentcantpasslaws
againstspeech.
Reply
27122011
EOM(22:54:50):
Denise,pleasebanRichardfromcommentsection.Thisguyhas
beenwritinghisarrogantmessagestomanyblogsanddiscussion
forumsandIcantellyouitsimpossibletohaveanintelligent
discussionwithhim.Havinghimherecommentingandother
peopleansweringtohimisjustwasteofeveryonestime.
Reply
24122011
ItseemstomethatitisagoodthingthatDenisehasathickenough
skintobeabletohandlesnarkoratleast,Ihopeshedoes,since
someofthecommentsthathavebeenpostedareverysnarky.The
commentRichardmadequalifiesasserioussnarkinspades.
IcouldaskwhatRichardthinkheisaddingtotheconversation,but
96/233
11/20/2014
IcouldaskwhatRichardthinkheisaddingtotheconversation,but
Iamabitafraidthattheanswerwouldjustbemoreabuse.
Beth
Reply
24122011
Wizzu(23:29:05):
Figures.
ItsgettingmoreandmoreprobablethatRichardandAnnaarepals
inreallife,oreventhesameperson.
Thatlevelofconnivenceandmutualsupportaftersuchalimited
communicationonsomeblog,ishighlyimprobable.Ivenevermet
it.AndImontheinternetsince1997andhavebeenamoderatoron
adozenforums.
Ofcoursepeoplesometimesfraternisequicklybutnotonthe
specificmodedisplayedhere.Itslikeabadhollywoodscript.
Denise,Ihavethefeelingthatyouaredealingwithmorethan
averagetrollshere.Thereispatternfeelingtoit.Itsounds
organized.Youbannedatooobvioustrollrecently,sotheyreback
withmoresubtletactics.
MaybeImjustbeingparanoid.ButsincethemomentwhenIhave
beencalledaneonazisupporterbyDr.Imholierthanthouwith
frothatthemouth,Imenclinedtotrustmyintuition.
MerryChristmasBTW!
Reply
24122011
RichardandAnnaarepalsinreallife,oreventhesameperson.
Interestingidea,goodpoint.
Reply
24122011
Uhno.YouactuallyhavetohaveanIQoffthecharts,agreat
understandingofstatisticsandincrediblepatiencetogothroughall
thedatathewayDenisedidtocomeupwiththatwork.Itwasso
good,thattheonlycriticismCapmbelloranyofhissupportershave
evercomeupwitharesimilartoyours.attackthemessenger
97/233
11/20/2014
becauseyoucantattackthemessage.Notasoulhasbeenableto
comeclosetoattacktheactualworkDenisehasdone,andbelieve
me,itisntbecausetheydontwantto.Itisbecausetheycant.Read
ityourself.Whatshedidisbulletproof.Toobadyourpreconceived
notionswontletyouseeit.
Reply
24122011
ThanksMario,nicereply.
Beth
Reply
25122011
anna(00:43:54):
Wrong,Richard,wrong.
Actually,IthinkthatIvystudents/graduatesarethemost
brainwashedandopportunistic.Afteralltheyarethemost
ambitiousandwantreallytosucceedincorporateAmerica.
Adecadeagoorso,exactlyatthetimewhenDavidBrookswrote
hispiece(onlyhalfgood)inAtlanticmonthly(?)TheCorporation
Man,Istartedtohavenightmares,afterhavingacloseencounter
withtheNewYorkIvystudents.Afteronenightmare,Iwokeup
withapoem(myfirst,mylast,amasterpiece)seebelow.
Marchingzombies,marchingzombies,marchingzombiesmarch,
Marchingzombies,marchingzombies,marchingzombiesmarch
Theydontthink,theydontdream
Theymarch,theymarch,theymarch
Marchingzombiesmarchetc.
Now,excuseme,Richard,butIdidntwatchasinglevideoofyours
andhavenointention.IdidreadDenisesarticle,brilliantasusual.I
dontknowhowDenisegotsosmart(agenius?),butIknowthat
sheisoutstandinginmethodandstyle(exceptionallysophisticated,
lightandwitty).
Somehow,she(andprobablymanyothers)escapedtherequired
zombietraining.
Reply
25122011
anna(00:47:41):
Denise,please,please,pleaseredesignthiscommentsection.My
Wrong,Richard,wrongcommentwasaresponsetoRichards
addresstomeseveralmilesearlier.
Reply
98/233
11/20/2014
27122011
Elenor(14:52:03):
IwishRichardwouldgoaway.Talkaboutgummingupablogwith
idiocyandadhominemattacks.{eyeroll}(Yes,thatsanad
hominemoritcouldjustbedisgustwithhimforwastingmy
time.)Maybeifweallgetreallyquietanddontanswerwhenhes
hangingaround,hellthinkwerenothomeandhellgoaway!!
Reply
27122011
gager(23:38:00):
CampbellsaidweshouldntlistentoMingerbecauseshesnotold
enough.Well,weshouldntlistentoRichardbecausehesnottall
enough.GoodbyeRichard.
Reply
24122011
TheFourthDayofCavemanChristmas|TheDowntown
Caveman(02:27:40):
[...]andkickspuppies!Checkyourcorrelationatthedoor,Isay,
andcheckoutthisandthisandthis.Inanutshell,dietary
cholesterolisntreallylinkedwithcholesterollevelsAT[...]
Reply
24122011
1monthNOCARBdiet...anyonehastried?Part2Page257
www.hardwarezone.com.sg(03:29:33):
[...][...]
Reply
24122011
Heather(04:54:56):
Wow,
GreatpostDenise,andthecomments!!TheAustralianAborigines
arebyandlargesubjectedtoaverypoorStandardAussieDiet,that
iskillingthemwithdiabetes,heartdiseaseandkidneyfailure.
Remoteindiginouscommunitieshaveverylittleaccesstofoodthat
isreasonablypricedorfresh,andtheimplicationsontheirwell
beingishuge.
Asanasidelinkedtothewaycountriesreportandmeasurethings,I
hadrecentbloodworkdone,andmytotalcholesterolis
8mmol/143mg/dl,whichhereinOzisconsideredatdeathsdoor,
withtherangebeing3.9mmol/lto5.5mmol/l.HoweverfromwhatI
havereadhereandelsewheremyreadingisnttoobad!Needlessto
saythereareanawfullotofpeopleonhorriblestatinshereinOz,
99/233
11/20/2014
butIwontbejoiningthem.
IwisheveryoneasafeandjoyousChristmaswhereveryouare,
cheers
Reply
29122011
Aaron(00:39:25):
@Heather
TheAustralianAboriginereferencewasmoretodemonstrate(to
Richard)thathavinglowcholesterolisnoguaranteeyouwillnot
sufferfromcardiovasculardisease.
Reply
24122011
SimpleVeganProtein|ProteinVegan|hotweightlossdiets.com
(06:31:21):
[...]KitchenTheseWholeGrainPancakesAreVeganand
DeliciousTooSimpleToBeTrueWheatFreeDietTheTruthAbout
AncelKeys:WeveAllGotItWrong.recentcomments
a{display:inline!important;padding:0!important;margin:0[...]
Reply
24122011
thatgirl(07:55:11):
Iadoreyou.Justfoundthisandspenttwohoursreadingyourblog.
Youhaveanewfan.BetweenyouandMercola(yesIknow,hegets
preachy/stridentsometimes,plusyouarewaycuterandwrite
better),myneedsarecovered.
IamatypeA,asfarasbloodtypegoes,sogenerallyIdobetterwith
lotsofveggiesandlessheavymeats.However,Ihavecometo
believethatwithhigherstress,meatthehighquality,thatisand
rawmilkaregoodforme,Igettooweakonvegandiet.IfIwasa
monkorlibrarian,perhapsvegancouldworkbutnotnow.
IdomuchbetterwhenIamglutenfree,too,howeverItendto
toleratethegermanryebreadok,insmalldoses.
IthinkmostpeopleespeciallyintheUSwoulddosomuch
better,iftheycutoutsugar+grainsforalittlewhile,aswellas
pasteurizeddairy.TheUSfoodchainis****ed.Iamluckytoliveina
placewithaccesstoseveralfarmersmarkets.
Cornis***edintheUS,asissoy.Idonttouchsoywithatenfoot
stick.
SpeakingofwheatIknowofseveralpeoplewhosetoleranceof
100/233
11/20/2014
SpeakingofwheatIknowofseveralpeoplewhosetoleranceof
wheatismuchbetterwheninFrance/Italy,ratherthanwheninthe
US.Samegoesformeandwine,interestingly.CAwineskillme,
generally.Ithinkthemoreunadulteratedthefoodsare,thebetter
thetolerance,perhaps?Ofcoursethatcouldbebecausethey
(people,notfoods)areonvacation,too:)Correlationisnota
cucumber,indeed.
ButIhaveoftenwonderedasthewholeGMOandhybridization
ofcrops,suchassay,wheat,increasedpacein20th/21stcenturies
coulditbepartiallyareasonforsomeofthegrowingintolerances?
Ourbodiestookawhiletoevolveandfigureoutwaystodealwith
ourstaplefoods.Aswetinkerwiththemonmolecularlevel,I
wonder
IjustwishveganswouldstopbashingWestonPrice.Anditseems
likeanytimeavegangoespublictosay:sorry,folks,Itried,butit
didntwork,letmetellyouwhytheyareinstantlybrandedas
meatindustryshills,blahblahblah
Igetitaboutanimalcrueltyandspeciesmandallthatgoodstuff.
Butideologicalstridencyinlieuofcommonsenseannoysme.
Plus,IalsothinklowB12islinkedtoaggression,paranoiaand
fuzzylogic.
Reply
30122011
Iknowofseveralpeoplewhosetoleranceofwheatismuchbetter
wheninFrance/Italy,ratherthanwhenintheUS.
thistouchesonsomethingIwishDavishadaddressedinWheat
Belly:quickriseyeast,whichdoesntgivetimetoneutralizethe
phyticacid.(inadditiontohisgoodpointsre:moderndwarfwheat,
Imean)
Reply
24122011
Richard(21:21:12):
WhatreallydisgustmeinthispostisMingerwhoenunciatesthatit
wasshewhofoundthisbiglieaboutKeys.Wheresthekudosto
primitivenutritionwhodidallthework?
Youpeopleshouldthankhim.Hisvideoseriesprimtitivenutritionat
youtubeisamazing.
101/233
11/20/2014
http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition/videos
Reply
24122011
PleasejustgoawayRichard.Everytimeyouwritesomething,you
soundmoreparanoid,lessinformedandmorebelligerent.Youhave
addedabsolutelynothingtothediscussioninanyway,shapeor
form.Honestly,youjustsoundunabletoconstructanargumentfor
yourselfortorespondtoanyoneelsesarguments.
Reply
24122011
Franklin(23:49:25):
Didntyoureadthepost?Shelinkedtoitinthissentence:Infact,it
washisglossedoverportrayalinarecentseriesofantipaleo
YouTubevideosthatinspiredmetowritethispost.
Reply
11032012
Sarah(07:44:21):
RichardYouareasad,strangelittleman,andyouhavemypity.
Reply
25122011
anna(01:06:58):
IwishRichardwouldlearnhowtowriteandspell
Now,thiscommentistrulyidioticandobviouslyismade..bya
marchingproductofAmericaneducation.Richardsresponsewas
correct.
Reply
25122011
ActuallyAnna,youneedtogetaperspective.ItisanEnglish
languagemessageboard,whetheryoulikeitornot.Richardwrites
inEnglishinaconfusinganddifficulttounderstandway,whether
youlikeitornot.Sodoyouforthatmatter.Theauthorofthatpost
expressedafrustrationwithbeingabletounderstandRichard.Your
arrogantattitudetowardsotherswhowriteonthisboardisalittle
lametoo.Itmightbeyour7thlanguage,butyouhaveyettoexpress
yourselfinanintelligentwayinthislanguage,onlybadgering
othersandofferinglittleofyourown.
Reply
26122011
anna(01:19:53):
102/233
11/20/2014
Sorry,Mario,Idisagree.Idontcarewhethertheauthorisfrustrated
ornot.Whydontyoutellhertotakeherfrustrationsomewhere
else.HercommentisIDIOTIC.Youcantchangefacts.
Secondly,IcanassureyouthatIdidntwriteanythingwhichisnot
intelligent.Youareaccustomedtosimplicityofsomethingelse,its
yourproblem.Thatyouseethingsthewayyoudo,isnotsurprising.
Everyoneseesthingshis/herway.Buttotellmetoseethewayyou
doisabsurdandinsulting.Yes,Iammultilingual,multiculturaland
multidegreedandIworkedhardtoseethingsthewayIdo.Give
orderstosomeoneelse,thisidiotforexample.
dranna
Reply
26122011
anna(01:24:09):
Franklyspeaking,IthinkIwouldliketoaskDenisetoremovethose
whoorderotherstowriteperfectlyinEnglishlookslike
harassmenttome.
Reply
26122011
anna(01:51:59):
DearMario,ifIunderstanditcorrectly,thisisntthemeetingplace
wherepromotersofeatmeatandfatonlyordiepromoteEACH
OTHERandtelleveryoneelsetogetlost.IfIunderstanditcorrectly,
itsanopenforumwherepeopleofvariousviewsandlevelof
expertisesharetheiropinions,servefacts,learn(personally,Iam
heretolearn),etc.
Reply
26122011
LookAnna.Iamgenerallyaprettypatientperson.Youhavespent
moretimepickingfightsandinsultingothers(actually,insultingan
entirenationanditseducationalsystem)thanyouhavedebating
issues.Youarewholeheartedlycorrectthatitisaforumtoexpress
differentpointsofview.However,itisabetterforumifpeople
expressthosepointsofviewsinwaysthatwecanallunderstand.
Richard,andtoalesserextentyourself,havedifficultydoingthat.
Despiteyourconsistentlypattingyourselfonthebackaboutyour
greatintellectandyourabilitytocommunicateinmultiple
languages,attheendoftheday,youhavemadeveryfewpoints
worthrememberingandgenerallyjustwritewordsthatdontmean
much.Ifyouwanttoaddtothediscussion,Iamallears.Andbythe
way,mynativetongueisfrench,andatleastIcanbeproperly
understoodinbothmylanguages.
103/233
11/20/2014
Reply
26122011
anna(03:05:37):
YouseeVachon,youdontunderstandsimplethings,suchasthat
thereisadifferencebetweenthesecondlanguageandtheseventh.
Seemstobesimple,butyouhavetroubleunderstanding.Similarly,
yourseemtobelievethatonlyrepeatingendlesslypeopleshould
eatmeatandfatonlyisacontribution.Yourewrong,Vachon.
Somewhereinthediscussionthereisagreatcontributionbya
womanwhoasksasimplequestion(veryintelligentinmyview)
whetherweresupposedtoeatmeatsevendaysaweek.Her
contributionistotallyignoredwhilemeatandfatpeoplepraise
eachotherandattacksomelonelyeatgrainandgrassonlyposter
(andme).Simple,butprobablywronginitssimplicity.
So,maybeyoudontunderstandmenotbecauseofmyEnglish.
Reply
26122011
Anna,hasanyoneinthispost,orinDenisesentireblogeversaid,
eatmeatandfatonly?AreyoulikeDonQuixoteandloveto
swingatwindmills?AndyouhavecertainlygivenWizzucredibility
inhisbeliefthatyouandRichardarethesamebyreferringto
Richardasashe.NolanguageissuethereAnna.Inanycase,if
youwanttobetakenseriously,quitblowingyourownhornabout
yourlinguisticabilitiesandgreatintellectandjuststayontopic.If
youmakegoodpoints,theywillberecognized.Ifyoujustinsult
entirenationsandcomplimentyourself,youwillbetakenforafool.
Reply
26122011
James(03:35:49):
Mario,Ilnestpaspossibledeconvaincreuntroll.Ilsnesontpas
intresssparlersultat.Ilssontdsesprsdecontact,quelleque
soitlaformeoulaforme.Alors,soitvouscontinuezpourlefunou
toutsimplementarrtez.
Reply
26122011
ThanksJames.Yourfrenchisalittlerusty,butyoumademe
chuckle.
Reply
26122011
anna(04:27:00):
104/233
11/20/2014
YoubothconfirmthatIamright.LifeissimpleIamtrollwhoisnt
interestedetc.March,marchandlabelanyonewhostopstothinkas
BTW,Mario,foryourinformationnotasinglenation(letalonea
hugeanddiverseone)issomonolithicthatonecaninsultthe
entirenation.Pompositydoesntmeancorrectness.Butwedohave
tostop.
Reply
26122011
Wizzu(12:42:12):
ThanksJames.
Mario,effectivementjepensequavecAnnaanirajamaisnulle
part,nevouscassezpaslatte.Vousaveztotalementfaitmouche
aveclimagedesmoulinsvents.Laisseztomber
TheonlythingIdstillliketoclarifyisthatpersonally,Ieataplant
richdietandcertainlynotpreachtoeatmeatandfatonly.
WhileImnotsurethatsuchameatandfatonlydietcouldhave
anyilleffectsifthemeatisorganicandorgansareliberallyeaten,
myhunchgoestowardswhatIcurrentlyeatwhichisvegetables,
fats,dairyandeggsbasedlowcarbdiet,withsomemeatand
organsonthetop(about45timesaweek),andnograins.
.Vegetables:everything,seasonal.Veryliberalamounts.Thebaseof
myownfoodpyramid.
.Fats:saturatedorpartiallysaturated(butter,coconut,lard)and
monounsaturated(oliveoil,hazelnutoil..),somecomplexn6/n3
vegetableoils(walnut,camelinasativa),non6richoils,no
processedoils.
.Dairy:organicandrawcream,butterandcheese(nomilk)
.Eggs:organic,upto34aday,rawyolksasasupplement
.Meat:fattycuts,organic
.Organs:whatIcanfindfromorganiccircuits,whichhereismainly
beefliver.
Someseasonalfruitsfromtimetotime.
Olives.Cocoa.Coconut.Redwine.Greentea.
Nowthatthisisoutoftheway,ontheotherhandIdontthinkthat
thosewhowanttogomeatandfatonlyforsometimearewrong.
Imevenenclinedtothinkthatpeoplewhohavebeendamagedby
grainsand/orpoorlyimplementedvegetariandiets,cangreatly
benefitfromsuchadiet.
Imjustnotconvincedyetthatitcanbealongtermsustainableway
105/233
11/20/2014
Imjustnotconvincedyetthatitcanbealongtermsustainableway
ofeating,forbothhealthandenvironmentalreasons.YMMV,andI
keepmymindopen(IevenreadJ.Stantonsgnolls.organdenjoyit
verymuch).
Reply
27122011
ThanksWizzu.GoodadvicewhichIwillfollow.
Reply
25122011
Grok(01:20:17):
ELEpeople!(AtleastuntilMonday)EverybodyLoveEverybody!
~JackieMoonAwisemanandonehelluvapromoter.
Reply
25122011
WeekendLinkLoveEdition170|MarksDailyApple(16:00:56):
[...]Mingerbringsthepainyetagain,albeitthistimetoaslightly
surprisingvictim:ourownbiasesandsacred[...]
Reply
25122011
Denise,
InterestingpostbutIthinkyouvemixedupthe6and7country
studies.The6countrystudywastheonethatwasattackedbyY&H
and,althoughthereisstillanassociation,itisnotnearlyasstrongas
Keysclaimed.ItisgoodthatyouwentbacktoY&H.Ididntrealize
thattheymadetheargumentthatshouldbemadeonallthesekinds
ofstudies:iftherearemanykindsofassociations,itisquestionable
thatanymeananything.
Anyway,the7countrystudy(nottheonewithallthepoints)came
afterandfound,infact,thattherewasnoassociationwithtotalfat
andCVDbutratherwithwhatheattributedtosaturatedfat.This
alsohadproblemsasyoupointout.Iciteaninterestingoneonmy
MediterraneanInterlude,namelythathecollecteddataduringlent:
http://wp.me/p16vK091
RDF
Reply
25122011
Wait,wait.PartoftheproblemisthattheWikipediaentryonseven
countriesstudyisinaccurate,possiblywidelyinaccurate.
106/233
11/20/2014
Reply
25122011
Sue(17:54:52):
Denise,itamazesmehowyourmindworks.YouaretheEinstein
whenitcomestothinkingoutsidethebox.Iamsohappythatyou
arefollowingyourpassioninlifethisiswhatyouwereborntodo
andhelpingsomanythousandsofpeopleatthesametime.Thanks
tomanyotherpeople:MarkSisson,ChrisMasterjohn,SallyFallon,
RobbWolf,etc.forspreadingthenutritionwordandimprovingthe
healthandhappinessofsomanypeopleworldwide.
Happy2012!!
Reply
25122011
James(20:33:26):
Firstofall:AheartfeltthanksDenise!Ofcourseyouofallpeople
realizefullwellthattheworkisnowonlyjustbeginning.When
talkingaboutfatsfromanimalsourceswearedealingwithbothsat
aswellasmonounsaturated.Ofteninequalamounts.Itisalsotrue
thatfatsareincrediblyimportantatalllevelsandthattheycarry
manynutrientsnotwatersoluble.Alotoffatfromplantsourcesis
polyunsaturated,highinn6.(seealsoHomerBlacksworkonskin
carcinogens)
Andthenofcoursethereis,asfarasIamconcernedtheonediet
constituentthatisundoubtedlypresentinallthedifferentcountries,
thatmayquitewellposea,uptillnow,astillunderestimated
danger:wheat.
Yes,yes,Iknow,ifyouonlyhaveahammer,youseeallproblemsas
nails.
HaveaWonderfulNewYear.
Reply
26122011
HeavensToBetsey(00:45:36):
Imstillunconvincedthatwearelookingatanythingexceptforthe
ideathatcertaindiseasesmaybelowinsocietiestoopoortoafford
muchsugar,tobacco,orgoodgovernmentdatacollection.
IdstillliketoseeagraphoverlayingKeyschartwithachart
showingthosesamecountriestobaccoconsumptionduringthose
sameyears.Becauseithinktherealculprithereistobacco.
Reply
26122011
Wizzu(13:29:02):
107/233
11/20/2014
ideathatcertaindiseasesmaybelowinsocietiestoopoortoafford
muchsugar,tobacco,orgoodgovernmentdatacollection
Soundsrighttome.
ItsbeensometimenowthatIwonderwhatKeysgraphswould
havelookedlike,ifhehadchosentolookatsugar(andwhiteflour)
insteadoflookingatfat.
Mytakeisthatheprobablywouldnthaveneededtodropsome
datatomakethecorrelationlookstronger.
Reply
26122011
>Imstillunconvincedthatwearelookingatanythingexceptfor
theideathat>certaindiseasesmaybelowinsocietiestoopoorto
affordmuchsugar,>tobacco,orgoodgovernmentdatacollection
Withoutgooddatacollection,wedontknowwhatdiseasesreally
killpeople.ItseemstomethatwhatDenisehasessentiallypointed
outisthatcountriesthataretoopoortoeatalotofmeatorfatare
alsotoopoortoknowanaccuratecauseofdeathmuchofthetime.
Inotherwords,thesevencountrystudyhasverylittleinformation
thatisinterestingvisavisagooddietatall.
Intruth,Iamnotconvincedthatallthedeathsthatareattributedto
CVcausesintheUSarereallycausedbyCVandnotinsteadbythe
doctorwritingdownaCVcausewhenIdontknowismore
accurate.
Reply
27122011
Franklin(02:57:37):
True,Anecdotalcaseinpoint:Averysuccessfulrealtorhada
massiveheartattackatage40,anddroppeddead.Itwasattributed
toaheartattackofcoursebutwordhadit,hewasacokehead.
Hediedinhisownhomebutifhedbeeninanaccident,there
probablywouldhavebeenanautopsy.
Reply
26122011
akismet42db63904bb0f938d6bad08139c66a20(11:59:39):
Amazingpost.Absolutelybrilliant.Keepupthegoodwork!
108/233
11/20/2014
Reply
26122011
RegevElya(12:01:14):
Amazingpost!Absolutelybrilliant.Keepupthegoodwork!
Reply
26122011
anna(12:35:13):
OK,Ithinkitstimeforsomesummary.
Thereareproblems.Thereisaproblemwiththeoriginalgraph
problemwithitssimplicity.Ilookedatitagaintoverifymy
concernsandyes,theproblemisthere.Someonepointedoutrightat
thebeginningthatthereweremanymorefactorsinvolvedthanonly
eatinggrain/meat.IMHO,comparingofthepopulationof
SwitzerlandorAustraliaof1951withthepopulationofIsrael(high
percentageofsurvivors/refugees)withoutconsideringotherfactors
isincorrect.
Nowasummaryofproblemswithcomments.Thegentlemen
whodominatethissectionshouldstarteatinglessmeat(toomuch
energy)andstopsilencingeveryonewhohaslegitimatedoubtsand
concerns.Theproper,politequestionsaretotallyignoredor
dismissed,therebelsareattackedbyanumbersofposters(youseeI
amniceandIdidntusethewordmob)andarelabelledtrolls,
senttoschool,orthreatenedbyleaving,etc.Iamprettysurethat
preciselythisattituderesultedinbanningoffat.Atthattimeitwas
donebygrainmarchers.
Severalpeople(allarewomen)share,forexample,thesame
concern:howsafeismeat/fatovereating.Womenknowthatiron
overloadisnotgoodforthem,somearealsoconcernedabout
phosphorusexcessiveintake.Thereareprobablyotherconcernsand
Ithinktheyshouldbeaddressed.
MostpeopleherearetrulyimpressedbyDenise,understandthe
importanceofwhatsheisdoingandwishhersuccess.Ithinkwe
shouldstriveforimprovementofthecommentsection.No,uneven
nutritionallevelofcommentsisntaproblemthisisnotan
academia.Thefightsareaproblemandtheyshouldbereduced.I
promisetotonedown.Iexpectthegentlemenchangetoo.
Reply
26122011
Charlie(12:39:21):
Thosethatkeeppostingconstantlythinksnotrelatedtothepostis
becausetheydonthavethesmarts,beautyandwittywritingstyle
ofDenise.Pleasestopifyouhavesomuchtowritemakeyourblog.
ThanksDeniseforanothergreatpost.
109/233
11/20/2014
Reply
27122011
anna(15:27:03):
OK,Iamback.Thosewhocomplainthattheirparentswerenotas
wittyasLucyinthefilmandwhodontknowthedifferenceatext
preparedforpublicationandargumentsinadiscussionshould
NEVERwriteANYWHERE.
Reply
26122011
anna(13:11:25):
Well,thegentlemenwillneverlearn.
IwasthinkingisitpossiblethatKeysreducedthenumberof
countriesheconsideredbecausehewasawareoftheimperfectionof
the22countrylist?Ididntcheckthelistofthecountrieshechose,
soIamjustguessing.
Reply
27122011
anna(15:29:48):
OK,Iwanttocorrectthetextanditisinthewrongplace.Illtry
againtoplaceitafterCharliescomment.
ThosewhocomplainthattheirparentswerenotaswittyasLucyin
thefilmandwhodontknowthedifferencebetweenatextprepared
forpublicationandargumentsinadiscussionshouldNEVERwrite
ANYWHERE.
Reply
27122011
anna(15:55:25):
Actuallywehaveasimilarsituationtotheoneabove.Pretensions,
ignoranceandaggression.Denisehasagreatstyle,butitdoesnt
meanthat
othersdonthaveagreatstyle
thatitsthemostimportantthing
thatcircumstances,suchasspeedofresponseandofcourse
whetherornotwearedealingwiththemothertonguedontmatter.
Frankly,thiscanbeviewedasabiasedsilencing.Youdontlike
commentsbynotnativespeakersskipthemyourright.Totell
themtostopbeingthemselves(dropthataccent)lookslike
harassment.
Reply
27122011
gager(16:29:37):
anna,yourenotmakingsense.Trylayingoffthedrugs.
110/233
11/20/2014
Reply
27122011
anna(17:11:10):
Idonttakedrugs.Trytoeducateyourself.Whatisillogicalinmy
lastcomments,friend?
Reply
26122011
kim(13:16:56):
Whatafantasticpiece,Ireadthisthroughtotallyabsorbed.First
timeIhavevisitedthissite.
Iloveyoursenseofhumour.Imoffnowtoreadtherestofyour
articles.
Bestwishes
Kim
Reply
26122011
orbit261211missmarianette(13:22:04):
[...]Thisladysanalysesmakememissmyundergradscienceclasses
(oh,IneverdreamtIdmissscientificpaperreviews).[...]
Reply
26122011
Kaisa(15:00:02):
ILOVEyou.
Reply
26122011
Mark(15:35:49):
Dangpeoplestresskillsregardlessofyourdietofchoice.
Takeachillpill(veganornot)andaddacoupleofyearstoyour
lives.
Reply
26122011
anna(15:54:00):
stresskillsregardlessofyourdietofchoice
Correct,Mark.Thatswhyitsimportantforanalyststoknowwhat
kindofstresswasbehindthescenesforwhomitwasOh,my
mansionsvaluejustdecreasedby5%orstressofwatchingyou
familyburnedalive.Thosewhoinsistoncountingcalories(orfat,or
111/233
11/20/2014
grainsorwhatever)onlyreallydontknowwhattheyaredoing.
Therearesomanythingsrelated.Nutritionistsusuallyarenot
preparedtodealwiththecomplexityofhumanexistenceandits
historical/culturalaspectsandtheresultsarepredictable.Ilaugh
whenIreadLookthereissomuchsuninthisorthatcountry,but
yetwomenhaveverylowlevelofvitaminD.WhydoIlaugh?
Becauseitsfunny.Theauthorjustforgotthefactthatwomenare
coveredTOTALLYandspendmostoftheirdaysindoors.Justan
example.
Reply
26122011
Mark(16:19:23):
OK
Reply
26122011
Ibelievethemajoruncertaintiesinallepidemiologicalstudies
involvingdiet,health,andmortalityarefromlargeuncertaintiesin
theaccuracyofthedietinformationandlargeuncertaintiesinthe
properclassificationofthecauseofdeathasalreadydiscussedhere.
Dietsaresovariedbetweenindividualsandovertimeandcausesof
deathareusuallymultifactored.Theseuncertaintiesaloneareso
largeastomakethesestudiesquiteuselessunlesstheresultsshow
verylargedifferencesbyfactorsof2or3ormore.Andofcourse,
eventhenwehaveonlyassociationandnotproofofcause.But
anotheroftenoverlookedaspecttothistypeofepidemiological
studyistheageatwhichpeoplediefromthediseaseandtheage
distributionofthepopulation.Inthesestudiesthataspectwas
properlyhandledbylookingatmortalitywithinspecificagegroups.
However,InoticeinlookingatFigure3fromtheYHstudythatthe
absolutemortalityfromB26typeheartdiseaseinmalesaged50
59rangedbyafactorofthreeatabout40%ofcaloriesfromfat,from
aboutabout0.25%inNorwaytoabout0.75%intheUS.Atabout
30%ofcaloriesfromfat,therangeinmortalityratesisevenlarger,a
factorofaboutseven,fromabout0.1%inFrancetoabout0.7%in
Finland.Andofcourse,Francewithnear30%ofcaloriesfromfat
appearstohaveabouta30%lowerrateofB26heartdisease
mortalitythanJapanatnear10%ofcaloriesfromfat.Tome,these
statisticsonlyhelptoconfirmthathumansarewelladaptedtoa
widevarietyoffatintakesandthatotherfactorsarefarmorelikely
tobestrongerinfluencesonheartdisease.Inmycurrentview,the
leadingcandidatesfor*premature*developmentofbothheart
diseaseandcancerare1)toomuchdietarysugar(sucroseand
112/233
11/20/2014
fructose)inconjunctionwith2)toomuchdietaryomega6
polyunsaturatedfat.Next3)areawidevarietyoftoxinsandpoisons
intheenvironment,whereexposuredosageandhealthstatusare
likelytocausewidelyvaryingtolerancesaswellmakingitdifficult
tosingleoutspecificchemicalsasbeingthegreatestcontributors.
Alsoworthyofmentionis4)digestivehealth,whichisstrongly
influencedbydiet,including1,2,and3,butisthecriticaldefense
mechanismforthebody.Andofcourse5)atleastadequatedietary
nutritionisrequiredtoliveverylonganyway(whichisnotusually
abigproblemexceptinstarvationsituationsorcompromised
digestivehealth).
SinceIhavenowreached59yearsofage,accordingtoUSCDCstats
for2007,mylifeexpectancy(forwhitemale)ifImakeitto60next
yearshouldbetoreachage81.Ifgetluckyandmanagetolivetobe
100,whatdifferencewillitmakeifIdiefromheartdisease,cancer,
orslippingonice?Idontwanttoendupspending20yearsina
wheelchairorbedboundinanursinghomewheretheykeepme
alive,butjustbarely,sotheycanmakemoremoney.Qualityoflife
isverydifficulttodiscerninthesestudiesaswell.
Reply
26122011
>Idontwanttoendupspending20yearsinawheelchairorbed
boundina>nursinghomewheretheykeepmealive,butjustbarely,
Iworkedforalittlewhileinanursinghome.AfterIhadbeen
aroundthepeoplethereforawhile,Irealizedthatmanyofthem
weretherebecausetheywantedtobealive,eveniftheycould
hardlyhobblearound.
Youmaynotfeelthatlifeinanursinghomeisworthliving,butthat
isnotactuallyasentimentthatissharedbyall.Justsaying
Reply
26122011
Beth,yes,mostpeoplewilltakeanursinghomeoversuicideor
dieingathomebecausetheycanttakecareofthemselves,butthat
doesntmeanitstheirideaofagoodqualityoflife.Mypointis
simplythatIfeelqualityoflife,especiallywithagingwhenmany
diseasesaremoreprevalent,isaveryimportantconcernthatisoften
overlookedinstudiesabouthealthandespeciallyinthecontextof
aging.
Reply
113/233
11/20/2014
27122011
TJsGymWODforTues.Dec.27thTJsBlog(02:53:04):
[...]RawFoodSOS:Combatingrawfoodmythswith(gasp)science.
[...]
Reply
27122011
JackieHunt(13:41:01):
Denise,IsawyourtalkattheWAPFconfinDallas.Soawesome!I
thinkyouneedtoquityourdayjobandbeasciencewriter.(Whatis
yourdayjob?)Itjustgoestoshowthatwithagood(LiberalArts)
educationandalotofcommonsense,plussomeexcellent
investigativeskills,youcanpokeholesinalotofstuffthatwehave
cometobelievetodayasthehonesttruth.Mymantraisthis:In
GodWeTrust,AllOthersBringData.
Reply
30122011
onlyNTcandoscience(seeMBTI/Keirseyifunfamiliarscienceof
w/inheritedpreferences),degrees/careersdonotmakethescientist.
Obedienceisrewarded,thetruthisoftendisruptive.
Reply
30122011
sorry:ifunfamiliarw/scienceof
also,unfamiliarisagreatsongbyRide.
Reply
27122011
Elenor(15:09:51):
Inawhollyseparatevein:Denise,wouldyouconsiderchangingout
yourhtmlstyleforlinks?Thewebconventionisthatadotted
underlineisusedforapopupboxthateitherdefinesanacronym,
oraddsaweebitofadataspecifictoapieceoftext.(Ioftenuseitto
define/explainAmericanslangfornonnativeEnglishspeakers;so
astoretaintheflavorofawebclientswritingstylebyleavingthe
slanginthere,withoutconfusingnonAmericans(orAmericans,for
thatmatter!).
(IddothefollowingbitwithadottedunderlineandpopupifI
could,butIcantsopleaseseeitasanexplanatoryaside.)Web
conventions*are*conventionsbecausethevastmajorityofweb
surfersknowthemunconsciously(akintogrammar,whichis
pickedupbyveryyoungchildrenwithoutthembeingtaught
114/233
11/20/2014
grammardirectly).Anexamplewouldbewhenweautomatically
lookforthesearchboxinthetoprightcorner(whichmakesTom
Naughtonsblogannoyinghisisleftsideanddown),or
clickingonthetoprightcornerlogotogotothehomepage.(Or,
thinkofthoseannoyingbuildingdoorsthathaveapullhandle
design,butsomeidiotdesignermadeitaPUSHdoor.)Usingweb
conventionsmakesnavigatingapageanunconsciousact;misusing
webconventionsmakesthestylecometotheforefrontandtakes
thereaderoutofthematerial.(Likeusing(any)underlinesonthe
webhowmanytimeshaveyouclickedonaunderlinedbitof
texttofindthatpersonusedtheunderliningforemphasis,notasa
link.Thatsbreakingaverylongstandingandfundamentalweb
convention.
LOVEyourstuff!Enjoyedmeetingyouinpassing(andyourtalk)at
AHS.
Reply
27122011
AnnaDelin(16:55:30):
Thatprettymuchexplainswhytheinitiallyobservedpositive
correlationbetweenheartdiseaseandtotalfat(orsaturatedfat)is
reducedtoinsignificanceinmoderncohortstudies.Thescientific
methodshave,luckily,improvedovertime.
Itsalwaysatreatwithareallygoodpaper(Yerushalmyand
Hilleboe)aswellasareallygoodblogpost(long,informative,well
written).IwilllinktothisinthecommentsectionofotherblogsI
read.
AncelKeysdidsomeveryinterestingweightlossexperimentsand
probablyothergoodresearchtoo.Worthlookingatforanyone
interestedinsciencehistory.
Thereallytragicpartofthestoryishowthediethearthypothesis
becamepolitics.Andhowitjustcontinuestoliveon,despiteallthe
evidenceagainstit.
Reply
27122011
mark(19:12:22):
Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DenieseisBack!!!
Reply
28122011
Karl(12:39:08):
Ithinkitispossiblethatthecountriesinthesixcountrygraph
115/233
11/20/2014
Ithinkitispossiblethatthecountriesinthesixcountrygraph
wereactuallynotcherrypickedbyKeys.Hismortalitydatacovers
(asindicatedinthegraph)theperiod194849,whileY&H(asyou
canreadfromtheirTableIIinthetext)useddatafromtheperiod
195153.ThesedatawereobviouslynotavailableatthetimeKeys
preparedhis1953paper,andsomecountriesincludedinY&H:s
paper(includingtheNordiccountries,pdf)didnotusethe
internationalICD6(containingthediseasecategoriesusedbyKeys)
classificationformortalitystatisticsbeforethe1950s,sothereis
nothingstrangethattheywereabsentfromthedatausedbyKeys.
Reply
28122011
anna(13:35:52):
Veryinteresting,Karl.Itjustshowshowcomplexeverythingisand
howoftenweremissing(ormiss)importantinformation.Justthe
awarenessofcomplexitymakesmereluctanttomarchhappilyand
singinunison.
Reply
30122011
@Karl
whatpartofcorrelationisnotacucumberdidyounot
understand?
Reply
30122011
Wizzu(03:04:25):
Jeffrey,
WheredoesKarlquestionthecorrelationisnotcausationthingin
hispost?
Tome,youseemtobereplyingtoanargumenthenevermadeif
Imwrong,caretoprovidepointers?
PersonnalyIfindKarlsobservationaboutthedates,arathersharp
one!
Reply
30122011
Karl(09:36:47):
Youhaveinterpretedmecorrectly,Ithink.Mypointwasjustthat
Keyswasnotnecessarilyfraudulentinhisselectionofthesix
countries.Ialsothinkthisisanissueprimarilyofhistoricalinterest
evenifKeysselectionwasnotintentionallybiased,Y&H:sdata
116/233
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stillgivesamoreaccuratepictureofthecountrylevelcorrelation
(which,ofcourse,doesnotnecessarilyimplyanycausal
relationship)betweenfatavailabilityandreportedcardiacmortality
intheworldabout60yearsago.
Reply
28122011
CheekPouch(21:13:42):
Niceanddandyanalysis,inboththemaintextandthecomments.
But6/7countriesstudiesarestillepidemiologicalhogwash(okay
thatWASthewholepointinthepostbutstill).Historyisalways
coolbutIMHOitsfarmoreinterestingtothinkwhat
lipid/diet/hearttheorylookslikeincontextofmorerecent
internationalepistudieslikeMONICA.Nowthatwouldbeactually
interestingiftherestillissomethingfresh2find.
OhandBacktotheKeyshowaboutthesugarcontroversyand
earlierpapersbyCleaveandespYudkinthattakeonKeys.Now
thinkingaboutTHATwouldbecoolandactuallycurrentand
topical.
Reply
30122011
Karl(15:49:40):
Moreambitiousinternationalstudies,wheredietarypatternsare
comparedwithdiseaserates,seemtoberare.However,inareview
from1998(JClinEpidemiol1998;51:443460,seeauthors
homepage),Ravnskovnotedthatthepositiveecologicalcorrelations
between(saturated)fatandvascularmortality,asmeasuredby
officialFAO/WHOdata,seemtohavedisappearedsincethe80s.A
coupleofmonthsago,Ialsolookedatdataofthistypeformore
recentyears,andevennotedstatisticallysignificantnegative
correlationsbetweene.g.energypercentfatandagespecific
coronarymortality(postinSwedish).
Butthismaybeduetothesametypeofconfoundingasseemstolie
behindthestrongnegativecorrelationsbetweenfat/animalproducts
andnoncardiacmortalityinY&H.Withinagegroups,vascular
mortalityhasdeclinedinwealthierWesterncountriesinrecent
years(whichmay,atleastinpart,berelatedtoimprovedmedical
treatment),andratesnowadaysarehighestinrelativelypoor
countriesineasternEuropeandCentralAsia,whilethepositive
correlationbetweenwealthandfatavailabilitystillexists.
Reply
30122011
117/233
11/20/2014
HeyNeisy,
Iknowitsbeentheholidays,andImsureyourebizzy,butjust
wonderedifyougotmyemail(HeavyTail)?
p.s.
happywintersolstice(thedaysaregettinglonger!)
Reply
30122011
PhilipEarly(06:51:40):
HiDenise,wowShorelinetoHawaii.ImaformerSeatlite,(Capital
Hill/VolunteerParkstompinggrounds)andformerSDA.Istillhave
manyfriendsfamilywhoareSDA,andIknowmanywhohave
adapted,ortriedtodoastrictvegandiet.Ivecurrentlybeen
influencedbyDr.RobertLustigoftheUCSF/youtubeSugarthe
Bittertruthvideo,andfromtherehavebeenreadingsciencewriter
GaryTaubes.TheybothtalkaboutAncelKeys.Theybothsay
saturatedfatfromdietisntthemajorcauseofhealthproblems,that
themajorcauseofmostchronichealthdiseasesishighcarbswhich
leadstometabolicsyndrome,whichcanleadtothemajordiseases.
Imlearning,barelyscratchingthesurface,Ivethehabitofnot
eatingmuchmeat,butamquiteconfusedbythewarringofthediet
camps.IvebeenbeatenovertheheadbytheChinaStudybyafew
friends.Whyvegansaresooftensomilitantissurprising:oneofmy
veganfriendsisindenialthatheneedsvitaminB12.Ifindthisblog
refreshinginthatyouhaveaparticulardietthatworksforyou,yet
youareallaboutgettingtothetruth,scientificobjectivetruthas
muchaspossible.Myrequest:youreviewGaryTaubeslatestbookif
yougetachance.Regardless,Ienjoythisblog,andamdiggingina
bit.Ratherthankyouforthisblog.
Reply
30122011
MrChristopherSEA(07:42:28):
HeyPhilip,ImacurrentSeattlite(CapHillarea).Thisiscertainlya
veryinterestingareatoberesearching.Imcuriousifyouveread
WestonAPricesNutritionandPhysicalDegeneration?Inmymind
thisisoneofthebestsourcesforfindingoutwhathumanshave
thrivedon(traditionaldiets).Theyrequitevaried(someatemore
plantfoods,someless,allatefatfromanimalsand/orfish).Henever
foundagroupofhealthyhumanswhowerevegan.Itssomething
thatIthinkinandofitselfrefutestheChinaStudyinadditionto
Keys.Youcanfinditonline.Itsjustfascinating.Attheendofthe
day,formeatleast,whatTaubesandLustigdoisdemonstratethat
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11/20/2014
refinedfoods(carbs/sugarusually)arenthealthyforhumansand
thisissomethingthatPricenotedoverandoveragaininhisstudies
ofvarioushumanpopulations.
Reply
31122011
HeyChristopher!GreetingsandHappyNewYearfromMontrose
Colorado!YesIvefondmemoriesofbeingbodyslammedintothe
JackintheBoxfrontwindownearSeattleCentralbythreeriot
policeduringWTO!lol.Ahnostalgia.(noteIwaspeacefully
videotapingonthesidewalk,notaprotester.)despitethatImiss
SeattleandCapitalHill.WonderfulplacetoliveroundaboutLake
Washington,yes?
ThankyoufortherecommendationWestonAPricesNutrition
andPhysicalDegenerationIlllookintoreadingthat.
AndforDenise,toclarifymypost.Iwashopingyoucould*review*
GaryTaubeslatestbook.Itwouldbenicetohearwhatyouthinkof
it.
Reply
31122011
Dana(02:56:35):
Hey,heresanotheroneyoucouldmaybelookatwhenyouare
bored.Dr.WilliamDavisofWheatBellymentionsitinchapter8of
thatbook.Lookieheretheirwholebasisforjudginghowmuch
animalproteiniseatenisthosesameFAOtablesyoumentioned.
TheymisrepresenttheFAOtablesasbeingaboutfood
*consumption*ratherthanfood*availability*,too.
http://www.vivalis.si/literatura/3a00.pdf
Ihaventreadthewholebookyet,butinthatpartofthatchapter
wherehecitesthatsource(inotherwords,justwhereitdbemost
timelytomentionit),Dr.Davisneglectstomentionthat*all*
proteinsneedtobebuffered,notjustanimalprotein!Too,unlike
mostplantproteins(notableexceptionsbeingwheatandspinach,
neitherofwhichyouwanttoconsumeinexcessivequantities),
animalproteincomeswithitsownbuffertheaminoacidglutamine.
Wecanmakeglutamineifwereingoodhealth,butconsuming
extrainthedietfreesupwhatwemakeforitsotherfunctions.
Iwishjust*one*personouttherewouldwriteabookabout
nutritionwheretheyweremoreinterestedintellingthewholestory
thanjustpromotinganarrowagenda.Idontmeanexplainingthe
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11/20/2014
entiretyofthefieldofhumannutrition,butgeez,Imsooverallthe
scaremongeringaboutanimalfoods.
Reply
31122011
Sue(16:36:59):
DeniseiswritingsuchabookandwillbepublishedbyMarkSisson
in2012.ItscalledDeathByFoodPyramid.Shouldbeabest
seller!
Reply
31122011
anna(10:40:53):
Iwishjust*one*personouttherewouldwriteabookabout
nutritionwheretheyweremoreinterestedintellingthewholestory
thanjustpromotinganarrowagenda
Metoo,metoo.
Reply
1012012
Itelluscience(12:47:00):
Mypersonalviewhasbeen,thatabalanceddietofmax30percant
animalproducts,70%ofvegatablesisideal.
Itisalsoclearthatwiththeprelevationofprocessedfoods,
vegatableoils,refinedcarbohydrates,andvaried(yesvaried)food
intakeissignificantlydecreasinglifespansandhealth.
thisarticleprettymuchprovesmypoint,althoughicanneverprove
it(myassumptions).
Iwouldeatmeatandfatinmoderation,andplacegreatimportance
ontheotherfactorsmentionedabove.
Thebodyisafinetunedinstrument,notagarnagedump.
Also,thefactthatwearephysiologiclythesame,doesnotequateto
thefactthatourgeneticinheritanceisverydifferent.
Ergo,theideaofexaminingagroupofpeoplewithextremleyvaried
geneticmarkers,anddrawingconclusionsisextremleyidiotic.And
scienceclearlypointsthisout.
Wecanlearnfromclinicalstudies(andindeedhave),butonlyifwe
readthem,astheresultsaremanytimesskewedinfavoreofthe
theory.
Forsomereasonmedicscienceespeciallylikestodrawconclusions
frominsufficientdata,andmakeclaimswhennosuchexists.Hencs
itcouldhardlybecalledscience,butacolletionofrandom
observations,andjudgements.
Intheendweareresponsibleforourselves,andurbodywillketu
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11/20/2014
knowwhatexactlytodo,ifufinetuneurself.
Whatisgoodforone,maynotbegoodfortheother.Duhhhh.This
iswheresomemedicscientistshaveapperantlynotadvanced.
Reply
1012012
2011nutritionnuggets:#1DietaryFatandCholesterolSummaryat
NebraskaEngineer(23:02:08):
[...]2.HegoestogreatefforttodemonizeaguynamedAncelKeys
asthesourceofalldietaryfatnonsense.MostofthePeleodiet
grouphavejumpedonthisAncelKeysHaterbandwagon.Fora
morebalancedpresentationseethisarticlebyDeniseMingerwhich
iswellstudiedand
presented:http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/thetruthaboutancel
keysweveallgotitwrong/[...]
Reply
2012012
WeeklyRoundupHighbrowPaleo(01:27:45):
[...]LookslikeMercolaisjumpingonthesaturatedfatbandwagon.
ThegroupagreedthathisinterpretationofAncelKeysworkcould
usealittleMinger.[...]
Reply
2012012
Eric(11:09:59):
Denise
Yourwritingisasdeliciousasabowloffreshlypickedcherries.
Onlypickingthegoodones,ofcourse.
Reply
2012012
Eric(14:12:23):
Afterreadingaweeksworthofinternetdouchebaggery,Ifeelthe
needtoclarifythatyourwritingisactuallydeliciousandthatthe
cherrypickingreferenceisjokinglyaimedatKeys,notyou.Because
everyjokeisfunnierwhenyouhavetoexplainit.
Richard/Anna
Denisehasshownthatsheclearlyhastheovariestonotonly
articulateherpositionpublicly,buttoallowanyonetoanonymously
commentonit,andthenevenrefuteanonymouscriticismpointby
pointknowingfullwellthattheproviderofthatcriticismhasno
intentionofreturningthefavor.Ifyoureallywantanycredibilityat
all,gostartyourownblogandtrygoingheadtoheadwithher
121/233
11/20/2014
basedonfacts,notinsults.Butyouwontdothatbecauseitwould
meanactuallyputtingyourownwordstogetherinsteadofletting
someoneelsesvideodoitforyou.Peoplelikeyouturntheinternet
fromawonderfulresourceintoaLordoftheFliesesquedaycare
forretardedchildren.Gooddaysir.
(Isaidgoodday)
Denise,Iapologizeforthegratuitoususeoftheword
douchebaggery.Feelfreetoeditanyorall.Thatfirstpartwasnt
reallymeantforanyoneelseanyway.
Illegitiminoncarborundum
Reply
2012012
anna(15:29:52):
Dear,Eric.
IcanassureyouthatnotasinglepartofmeisthatofRichards.
AndyouseemycriticismofDenisewhere?Andthevalueofyou
commentsis?
dranna
Reply
4012012
DavidI(02:23:19):
FromRichardFeinmansblog:
TheideaofaMediterraneandietderives,insomeway,fromAncel
KeyssSevenCountriesstudy.Hediscoveredthatthetwocountries
withthehighestconsumptionoffat,hadthelowestincidenceof
cardiovasculardisease(Crete)andthehighest(Finland),andhe
attributedthistothetypeoffat,oliveoilforCreteandanimalfatfor
Finland.Itwaslaterpointedoutthattherewerelargedifferencesin
CVDbetweendifferentareasofFinlandthathadthesamediet.This
informationwasignoredbyKeyswhowasalsoapioneerinthis
approachtoconflictingdata.
Nicelyput.
Reply
4012012
InCaseYourHatredofAncelKeysKeepsYouUpAtNight|
S.P.E.E.D.EvidenceBasedWeightLoss(02:55:40):
[...]KeysKeepsYouUpAtNightPostedonJanuary3rd,2012by
MattSchoenebergerDeniseMingerhasanicelittle(thatsnottrue)
summary(nottrueeither)ofAncelKeysearlyworkandsome
122/233
11/20/2014
argumentsthathavebeenleviedagainst[...]
Reply
6012012
StephanieL.(22:40:28):
Andenjoyedthisarticleverymuch(thefirstIreadonthisblog).Im
gonnareadmorenow!
Keepupthegoodwriting!
Reply
7012012
PrimalThoughtsTheUnexpectedStory(05:24:43):
[...]First,readDeniseMingerofRawFoodSOS:sheiseitherway
toosmartoraninsomniacnerdwhohaswaytoomuchtimeonher
hands.Sheisageniusatmakinggormeyhandburgersfromthe
scaredcowsofconventionalwisdom,evenprimalwisdom.Hereare
somegreatblogsonhersite:TheNewUSDADietaryGuidelines:
TotalHogwash,andHeresWhy,WildandAncientFruit:Isit
ReallySmall,Bitter,andLowinSugar?,TheTruthAboutAncel
Keys:WeveGotItAllWrong[...]
Reply
7012012
OPrimitivo(21:14:52):
Hereisadatabasetoplaywithvariables>
http://www.mediafire.com/?m2zjq4zbo336jnb
Reply
7012012
MaxPavlov(23:39:42):
ThankyouDeniseforagreatresearch,andanattempttomakean
honestconclusions.PersonallyIthinkyouleavingthisarticle
withoutasummaryintheendisnotagoodidea.
Iwillwriteoneasacomment,incasesomeonewillfindituseful.
Reply
7012012
MaxPavlov(23:43:24):
Summaryforthearticle:
WasKeysaliar?Notreally.Hejusttriedtomakehisdiscovery
moreshocking.
Doesfatmakesyourheartstop?Nojustanimalfat.
Dopeoplediefromanythingelse,exceptheartdiseases?Yes,and
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11/20/2014
Dopeoplediefromanythingelse,exceptheartdiseases?Yes,and
animalfathasnothingtodowithit.
AdditionfromMax:
Sincecoronaryheardiseaseisconsideroneofthemostpopular
deathreasons,wecansaythatanimalfatismostlikelytokillyou,in
comparisontoanyotherfactors.Given,thatyouareahumanof
cause=)
Reply
8012012
anna(00:07:22):
Whosaidit:Asickoisasickoisasicko?
Denise,prettysoonyouwillbeabletoformafullystaffedneoNazi
campoutofyourvisitors.Idoubtitstheintentionofyourblog,but
theyseemtoinvadeeverything.
Reply
8012012
Wizzu(02:15:40):
Sincecoronaryheardiseaseisconsideroneofthemostpopular
deathreasons,wecansaythatanimalfatismostlikelytokillyou,in
comparisontoanyotherfactors
OMGwhatabafflingsummaryofDenisesarticle.
MyeyesarerollingsohighthatImprobablylookinglikeazombie.
MaybeImjustbeingthickandyouwereactuallyjoking?
Ifnot,youcouldconsiderreadingthearticleagain.
Reply
8012012
lol!andnoseriousoffensemeantMaxPavlov,thatsthemost
pretentiousthingIveseeninawhile:summarizingsomeelses
writing.Ifyouwanttowriteabadsummary,startyourownblog!
Reply
8012012
anna(07:19:34):
Philip,hehasablogwhichnotonlyisthemostpretentious(sharp
observation),butalsothesickestthing.
Wizzu,heseemstobeavegan(plantbased),butweshouldnt
blamehisdietforhismentalcondition,sinceitlookslikehesa
newlymintedvegan.
124/233
11/20/2014
Reply
8012012
Wizzu(16:03:08):
heseemstobeavegan(plantbased)
Whywouldsomeonewithaplantbaseddietbeavegan,letalone
avegetarian?MyowndietisplantbasedanImneithervegannor
vegetarian.
Myacceptionofbasehere:afundamentalingredient;achief
constituent(apaintwithanoilbase).
Tome,plantbasedonlymeansthatonesdietconsistsmainlyof
plants,likevegetables,legumesandgrains.Itcanbeanomnivorous
dietnonetheless.Mineisdefinitlyomnivorous,though80%ofmy
plateconsistsofvegetables(butaspreviouslystated,nograins
theymakemesick).
YMMVwiththewordbaseofcourse,andiftosomeplantbased
meansplantsonlywhynot.ButIthinkplantonlywouldbe
clearertoeveryone.
Justaquickreminderthough(sinceIhavethefeelingthatthisisnot
ascleartoeveryoneasitshould):
*Vegan=eatingzeroanimalproducts(notevendairy)
*Vegetarian=eatingnomeat(somevegetarianseatfish,though)
buteatinganimalproductslikedairyandeggs
Reply
8012012
anna(17:02:17):
OK,Iunderstandthis.ThatswhyIwascautious.Idontwanttogo
backtothischarmingwebsitetocheckwhetheritsayssomething
morethanplantbased.
BTW,Ithinkwehadrecentlyseveralwhatlookslikehitandrun
(abeautifulname)comments.
Reply
8012012
anna(17:09:05):
Ithinkhesayssomethingaboutswitchingtoplantbaseddietwhich
suggestssomethingmoreradicalthanjustaddingacarrotortwo.
Reply
27022012
imnewhere(02:22:06):
125/233
11/20/2014
nooffense,butlabelinganyonewhosummarizesothersas
pretentious,withoutevenbotheringtoaddressthepoints,isthe
heightofpretentiousness
Reply
8012012
elbo(07:11:25):
justfoundyouquotedinwheatbelly
loveit
Reply
9012012
anna(22:05:31):
Quiet.
Reply
11012012
victor(23:01:27):
Didyoueversubmitthistowikipedia.
Reply
15012012
peterlepaysan(07:50:56):
Whyisitthatsiteattractssomuchcrapola?
Woulditbesohardtointroducegenuinescienceintothe
discussion?
Reply
15012012
anna(13:05:43):
Letmeguessanotherhitandrun?
Reply
20012012
smogybirchleaf(18:23:38):
DoyouknowanythingonhealingTeeth?
Reply
20012012
James(18:35:41):
Stopbrushingyourteethwithtoothpaste,itleavesasolidglycerin
layerwhichpreventsmineralstodotheirjob.Cutoutallcereals,or
atleastcutbackquitedrasticallyandeatlotsofvegetablesthatare
highinmagnesium.
http://www.whfoods.com/andmaybesupplementwithmagnesium
126/233
11/20/2014
citrate.Avoidtheoxideform.Althoughwearenotverygoodat
extractingmineralsfrompills.Bettermakingbrothsfromsoup
bones.Addalittlevinegartoaidtheprocess.
Reply
21012012
Elizabeth(20:11:29):
Youcanarguenutritionanditscorrelationtohearthealthallday
andlikelyneveragree.Thisforum,likemanyothers,depictsthe
amazingfactthatveryfewexpertsintherealmofnutritionactually
agreeonaonesizefitsalldiet.Thisis,Ibelieve,becausethedatais,
atbest,difficulttodisseminateforactualPROOFofcauseand
effectsregardingdietandhealth.Onethingthatallofthisignoresif
geneticconcernsandimplications.Nowhereisanyone
acknowledgingthepowerfulimplications(muchofwhichisNEW
information)regardingtheC677Tcomponentofcardiachealth,and
thenutritionalconcernsregardingthat!Thiswillbeafarbigger
factortocardiachealththancholesteroleverwillbe!
Cheers!
Reply
13032012
heathertwist(22:10:44):
Thatsaninterestinggraphintermsoftheferritinhypothesistoo.
Aboriginestendtoeatalotofleananimals,notmuchdairy
(AlthoughitsnotcleariftheseareAboriginesonanativediet,or
eatingWesternfood).Russia,Lithuania,andtheCzechrepublicare
127/233
11/20/2014
alsobiggeronruminantmeat.France,Switzerland,andGermany
getmorecaloriesfromdairy,whichblocksiron.Spain,France,
Sweden,andDenmarkeatmorefishthanruminantmeat.
Reply
21012012
anna(20:29:01):
IwasthinkingIhavetheimpression(Idontfollowthe
discussionseriously)thatallthosewhotalkaboutprimalhunter
gatherersorgathererssomehowforgetthattheworldwasprobably
quitediverseandprimatesliveinvariouscircumstancessome
probablynearsomeshallowwaterswherefishwerejumping
themselvesontotheseprimateschinaandothersprobablylivedon
somemeadowscoveredwithwildwheatandstillotherlivedin
somesnowcoveredmountainswheretheyatesomething.Didnt
thisdiversityaffectthoseprimates,theirchildrenandus,their
grandchildren?
Reply
21012012
AnnaIthinkthisisprobablyright,humanshavealwayslivedin
verydiverseenvironments.InfactWestonPricedocumentedthis
withallthevariousprimitivecultureshevisited.Ithinkitswhy
humansareomnivores.
Reply
21012012
Artcomm(20:54:43):
EverythingIhavereadsofarindicatestomethatthesamefood
qualityorlackofitadministeredtodifferentpersons,willhave
differenteffects.
Now,thereMUSTbesomethinginthewaythingsarebeingdoneby
asocietythatisnowusedtositandwaitwhichoneoftheaffluent
diseasesisgoingtokillyou,yourbrother,yourspouse,yoursister,
yourfriend,yourchildren.
Intheend,mostofthemdieofoneoftheaffluentdiseases.And
eachdeathmeansseveraltensofthousandsofdollarsworthof
hospitalandmedicalexpensesthattheglobalsystemmustinject
intothemedicalsystem.
Nowonderthatifthepersondiesfromsomethingdifferentthan
oneoftheaffluentdiseases,thispersonprobablyhadadifferent
dietSorry,Icantsaythat,right?No,itwasntthediet,itwas
128/233
11/20/2014
his/hergenes!Orhe/sheprobablywascarefulenoughtotake
supplements.
So,thepositivecorrelationstoplantproteinandfatintakeofgroups
ofpeopledyingfromsomethingdifferentfromtheaffluentdiseases,
isinvitingmetothinkthatifyourlifeintakeofproteinandfatand
carbohydratescomesdirectlyfromplantfood,youwilldie,yes,but
NOTfromoneoftheaffluentdiseases.
DoesntthissoundverymuchlikewhatDr.Campbellsuggests?
WhatdidImiss?
Reply
21012012
Artcomm,Ithinkyouvekindofmissedthepointofthisentireblog.
Denise(andothers)hasbeenpointingoutthatthesecorrelationsto
plantandhealth,orinversely,animalproteinandpoorhealth,used
byDr.Campbellarehighlyflawed.Infactyoucaneasilymakethe
argumentthatitwastheintroductionofveganfoodsintoWestern
dietsthatbegantheslowdeclineintomodernizeddegenerative
diseases,akarefinedwheatandsugar.Ihearthisfromvegans,that
itwastheintroductionofmeatproductsthatsuddenlycaused
moderndegenerativediseases.Itscompletenonsense.
Reply
22012012
TheCholesterolhypothesis:Timefortheobituary?(19:43:48):
[...][...]
Reply
31012012
Matt(10:13:53):
129/233
11/20/2014
AncelKeysfoundthatbothsugarandfatwerecorrelatedwithheart
diseasebutheneverbotheredtodothepropermultivariate
regressionanalysisasexplainedinthisvideo,SugartheBitterTruth,
todetermineratheritwasfatorsugarthatwascausingheart
disease.
Reply
31012012
Matt(10:17:20):
Watchstartingat32:30toseethediscussionabouttheSeven
CountriesStudy.
Reply
31012012
TheTruthAboutAncelKeys:WeveAllGotItWrongThor
FalksReadingList(12:26:03):
[...]TheTruthAboutAncelKeys:WeveAllGotItWrongRaw
FoodSOS:TroubleshootingontheRawFoo.onmyreadinglist
Share
this:TwitterRedditFacebookMorePrintEmailStumbleUponTumblrDiggLinkedInLike
this:LikeBethefirsttolikethispost.[...]
Reply
31012012
impossibletobeavegan:
Reply
27022012
imnewhere(01:59:54):
130/233
11/20/2014
itsalsoimpossibletobeperfect,butonecanstillaimforitjust
sayin
Reply
27022012
anna(06:59:22):
Theworldisgettingweirderandweirder.
Itsimpossibletolivewithoutoxygen,butyou,imnewhere,canstill
try
Reply
8022012
Joe(08:35:02):
Denise
Howexactlydoyoueateggs?
Doyoueatthemraw?
Doyoumixtheminwithasmoothie?
Whatqualitiesareyoulookingforinagoodrawegg?
Reply
24022012
GeorgeHenderson(02:39:09):
Epidemeologysuggestshypotheses;butperhapsthereshouldbea
lawagainstdiscussingthosehypothesespublicallywithouta)
properproof,orb)astrongcorrelation,likesmokingis22:1
associatedwithlungcancer.
A30%increase,orevendoubling,insomediseaserate,comparedto
thatjustdoesntcutit
Reply
5032012
Sowhathappenswhenyougraphheartdiseaseagainstferritin
levels?Itsprettywellknownthathighironlevelsinthebloodlead
toheartproblems.Eatingalotofbeef,esp.combinedwithpotatoes
andironsupplementedwheat,andintheabsenceoftea,leadsto
higherironlevels,andferritinlevelsintheUSareoneofthehighest.
Ithinktheironissuemightaccountforsomeoftherelationship
betweendietandheartdisease.CountrieslikeFranceandJapanget
plentyofprotein,butitsnotgenerallyhighhememeat.Plusboth
dairy(cheese!)andteablockironabsorption.
131/233
11/20/2014
Reply
5032012
gager(11:49:18):
Theincidenceofirondeficiencyisabout5timeshigherthaniron
overload.Ironoverloadismostlyageneticinheriteddisease.A
personshouldnottreatfortheconditionwithoutproperdiagnosis.
Reply
5032012
Thatiswhatalotofpeoplebelieve,thatirondeficiencyiscommon.
Basedonmorerecentresearchthough,itseemsthatwemayneedto
revisewhatisnormaliron.Forinstance:
1.WhenanemicMaasaiaregivenironsupplements,theybecome
pronetoamoebicinfectionsandmalaria.
2.Ferritinlevelsofover100areassociatedwithhigherlevelsof
diabetes.
3.Oralironstimulatesinsulinlevels,muchlikesugardoes.
REALLYhighlevelsofironisgenetic,forsure.Butitabsolutelyis
thecasethatnormalpeopleoverabsorbiron,andtoxicironlevels
arecommonlyseenwherecastironisused,forexample,orinkids
whoeatironsupplements.OurAmericanfoodshavewaytoomuch
ironinthem,accordingtosomeexperts.Anyway,RayPeathasa
goodsummaryoftheproblem:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/irondangers.shtml
Imnotantimeatatall,andalotofthishastodowithotherfactors,
likeparasites.Inruralcountries,everyonehashookwormand
anemiaISmorecommonthanoverload.Asthosecountriesgetmore
medicinethough,andstartgettingridofwormsandaricherdiet,
ironlevelsgoup.Andasironlevelsgoup,Ithink,sodoesheart
disease.
ThetreatmentforAmericansisgenerally:Avoidiron
supplementedfood(mostlyprocessedfood,whichyoushould
avoidanyway)anddrinkingtea,coffee,ormilkwithameal,and
avoidingfruitorVitaminCwithameatmeal.Thesestepsarenot
dangerousatall.Gettingyourferritinlevelscheckedisagoodidea
foranyonethough.
Reply
13032012
132/233
11/20/2014
Jane(13:34:59):
heathertwist,Iagree.
InChina,consumptionofwhiteflourbutnotwhitericeisassociated
withheartdiseaseasDenisehasshown,andwithdiabetesasZumin
Shiandothershaveshown,andaccordingtoDrShi,whiteflourin
Chinahastwiceasmuchironaswhiterice.
Reply
15032012
SylviaOnusic(17:15:10):
IactuallyhavealetterfromAnceltellingmethatmydoctoral
proposalwouldntworkImadesomequeriesamongscholars
askingfortheirprofessionalopinion.Hiswastheonlynegative
response.
Actuallymyideawassimilartohis,withoutthelabtesting.Based
onthatproposalIwrotemydissertation,wasawardedaPhD,won
aFulbrightgrantfromtheUSgovernmenttoconductresearchin
Slovenia,acountryintheformerYugoslavia.
.
TwoofhisgroupswerefromtheformerYugoslaviaandifmy
memoryiscorrect,theSerbiangroupsmoked,atelotsofanimalfats,
notoliveoil,butstillhadlowratesofCVD.
Ancelgavenewmeaningtothetermflipflopping,butforallhis
effortsheendeduplivinginItalyinabeautifulcountryvilla,The
OliveOilBoardperhapsplayedaroleorwasAnceljustsowealthy?
Reply
19032012
IpreviouslycongratulatedDeniseonherTheTruthaboutAncel
Keys:WevegotitAllWrong.IfeelthatImustnowretractthisfor
thefollowingreason.SubsequenttomypraisingDeniseforher
eruditecritique,Icameacrossthepowerpointpresentationbythe
PlantPositiveauthor,anddiscoveredthathehaddiscussedalmost
everypointbroughtupbyDeniseshortlybeforeDenisehadwritten
herpaper.AlthoughDenisegavesomecredittothisauthor,itwas
minimal,consideringthatthebulkofherpaperappearedtobelifted
fromhiswork.Thismaynotqualifyasexplicitplagiarism,butit
doessuggestintellectualdishonesty.
Bytheway,Iamnotavegan,oranyothervarietyofvegetarian.
However,Ihavedirectedandconductedscientificresearchin
universitysettings,andatthispointfindmyselfquestioning
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Denisesintegrity.Perhapssheshouldconsiderthismatterseriously
ifshehasplanstoentertheacademicworld.
Reply
19032012
neisy(21:43:55):
HiBrian,
InotednearthebeginningofthispostthatthePrimitiveNutrition
videosarewhatinspiredthispost,butincasethatwasnt
emphasizedenough,Ijustaddedanoterightatthetopstatingitin
moredetail.IdoowePlantPositiveahattipfordigginguptheinfo
onMexicosbirthcertificatehistory,whichIrealizedIleftoff,soIve
updatedthisposttocredithimforthat.Judgingfromthenumberof
clickthroughsthispagegavetohisAncelKeysvideos(over1,000),
hegotafairbitoftrafficfromthispage,andIdowanttogivehim
fullcreditforbringingattentiontothemythsaboutKeyscirculating
inthepaleoandlowcarbspheres.Althoughweobviouslycovera
lotofthesamegroundbecausewereanalyzingthesamepaperby
YerushalmyandHilleboe,Ithinkthefundamentalmessageofhis
critiqueandtheoneofmineareextremelydifferent,asaretheways
wediscussandinterpretthegraphsandchartscontainedwithinthe
paper.Itisnotmyintentatalltoliftanyofhisoriginalideas.
Forwhatitsworth,IcorrespondedwithPlantPositiveoveremail
afterthispostwasup,andinthetimebetweenthispostgoingup
andnow(3months?)hehasneveraskedmetoattributehisnameto
anythinginthispost,norotherwiseexpressedconcernwithwhat
Ivewrittenintermsofintellectualdishonesty.Ifhecontactedme
withanyunhappinessaboutthis,Iwouldgladlyaddany
addendumsnecessarytoclarifyhisroleinbringingtheAncelKeys
mythtothefore.
Ihavealsodiscussedhisvideosinsomeoftheearliercommentson
thispost:
AsfortheAncelKeysvideos,I*really*appreciatethatthePlant
Positiveguypointedoutthefrequentmisunderstandingsabout
Keysandthesixcountrygraphthatareoftenrepeatedwithinthe
paleocommunity.However,headmitstonothavingaccesstothe
YerushalmyandHilleboepaper,anditlookslikehesmainly
referencingtwographsfromitthatwerereproducedinalaterpaper
byStamlerin1958.
Asaresult,heleavesoutsomeofthemostimportantpointsofthe
Y&Hpaper,includingtheunreliabilityofusingfoodbalancedata,
theauthorsexplanationsofwhyanimalfoodandfatintakecanbe
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correlatedwithheartdiseaseinanoncausalwayduetoits
associationwithacountrysindustrialandmedicaldevelopment,
andthediscussionofwhattheinverseassociationbetween
fat/animalproteinanddeathfromothercausesreallymeans.
Also,thevideonarratortriestoselectivelydropcountriesoffthe
22countrygraphtomakethefat/heartdiseaseassociationlook
stronger:hisrationaleisthatNorway,Denmark,theNetherlands,
andSwedenwhichhadhighfatintakesbutlowishheartdisease
mortalitydontbelongontherebecausetheirheartdiseaserates
wereprobablystillrecoveringfromplummetingduringthewar
years.Yetoneoftheabstractsheflashestosupportthisideasays
pointblankDenmarkdidnthaveanyreductioninheartdisease
mortalityduringthewar,sohisrationalefordeletingitsdatapoint
isbunk,andhedoesntexplainwhyothercountriesaffectedbywar
rations(likeFinlandandAustria)shouldstayonthegraph.
Likewise,ifhewantstodeletedatapoints,hedalsoneedtogetrid
ofJapanandFranceandItalybecausetheynotoriouslyunder
reporteddeathfromheartdisease.
Reply
20032012
Richard(07:41:25):
Plantpositivehasuploadednewvideos,addressingMinger
pseudoscientificbullshitandplagiarism.Iwarmlywelcome
everyonetocheckthemout.ThelogicofMingerisutterperversed
andbizarre.Asiftheauthorhastobegandlookfortheplagiatorto
payarespecttotheoriginalwork.
135/233
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Reply
20032012
Richard(07:47:47):
Forwhatitsworth,IcorrespondedwithPlantPositiveoveremail
afterthispostwasup,andinthetimebetweenthispostgoingup
andnow(3months?)hehasneveraskedmetoattributehisnameto
anythinginthispost
UnbelievableMinger,getsomestandards.Youarenothing
butafraud.Ihavelottowritetotheamazonpageofyour
upcomingbook.Youcanfoolthesehalfretardedcavemenclowns,
butthesmarteroneswillseethroughyourdisintegrity.
Reply
20032012
HeidiG(16:56:12):
IwonderwhereallthehatecomesfromRichard.Getalife.
Reply
20032012
Richard(17:54:05):
Dontworry,Iamjustpissedseeingsick,confusedpeoplespreading
theirperverseagendawhileattemptingtogiveitallascientific
mask.
Deathbyfoodpyramid.LOLgiveamebreak.
Reply
20032012
gager(18:26:44):
Whatpartofhealthyissick?
MynumberscouldnotbebettersinceIgaveupgrainandsugarand
otherquestionablesocallednutritiousplants.Dontletfactslikethe
debunkingofcholesterolgetinthewayofyournonsense.
Reply
20032012
bethkirby(16:30:59):
ThisRichardbeingtheonepreviouslyreferredtoasatroll?The
slimefromhimismakingmyskincrawl.Denise,thanksagainfor
yourwork,Iappreciateitverymuch.
Beth
Reply
19032012
FranzJFortuny(23:20:09):
136/233
11/20/2014
Ifthisistrue,wedontneedanystatistics:
http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy
Maybethatswhyweallfeelsomuchbetter,oncewehavelearned
toeataccordingtotheoriginalstructureofourbioequipment.
Reply
21032012
ThankyouforyourresponseDenise.First,letmesaythatIadmire
yourintelligence,inquisitivenessandcommitmenttounderstanding
difficultandcontroversialsubjectmatter.Veryfewareableor
willingtotakeonsuchatask.
Sincetheearlypartof1998,Ihavereadmostofwhathasbeen
writteninthePaleoliterature.Infact,Iengagedinamostedifying
volleyofexchangeswithLorenCordain,MaryEnigandSallyFallon
atthattime,currentlyrecordedinthePeleodietArchives(Forthose
interestedinsomeoftheearlierdebates:Myfirstposting:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WAICORS.EXE?
A2=ind9811&L=paleodiet&F=&S=&P=832;MaryEnig&Sally
Fallonsresponsetome:http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA
ICORS.EXE?A2=ind9812&L=paleodiet&F=&S=&P=719;Loren
Cordainsresponsetome:http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA
ICORS.EXE?A2=ind9811&L=paleodiet&F=&S=&P=1599;My
responsetoLorenCordain,MaryEnigandSallyFallon:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WAICORS.EXE?
A2=ind9903&L=paleodiet&F=&S=&P=67).
Subsequently,IexploredthegeneralprinciplesofPaleothinking
andthoseoftheWestonPriceFoundationoveranumberofyears,
bothintellectuallyandinpractice.Withinbothbodiesofliterature,I
havefoundvalue,butalsoseriousbasicflawsintheir
understandingofhistoricalandprehistoricaldata,aswellasof
currentnutritionalresearch.Theselimitationshavebeenwell
coveredandcritiquedbyothersources,forthosewhocaretoavail
themselvesofthisinformation.Onthelevelofpraxis,Ihavenoticed
littlepersonalhealthresultdifferencesbetweenawellbalanced
vegetariandiet,thegeneraloutlinesofadietpromulgatedbythe
Paleogroup(lowfatversion)andadietmoreinlinewiththe
WestonPriceFoundation.Perhapsonecouldattributethispersonal
healthoutcomehomogeneitytomyparticulardippingpointintothe
geneticpool,ortosomeotherdifficulttomeasurevariableor
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variables.SincethislastquestionisalevelofignoranceIammost
likelydoomedtoneversurpass,Iamleftwiththetaskofassessing
theintellectualrectitudeofthesepositions.
IhavecarefullyreadyourpapersDenise,asIhaveexaminedallof
thePlantPositivepowerpointpresentations,aswellashavingread
muchofT.ColinCampbell.Assomeonetrainedinscientific
researchmethodology,ImustsaythatCampbellisafirstrate
researcherandhisChinaStudyisthefinestnutritionalresearchto
date.AsfarasthePlantPositiveauthorisconcerned,hisresearchis
exhaustiveandhisthinkingofahighcaliberandforthemostpart,
flawless.Itisnotnecessaryformetoelucidateonapointbypoint
basistherejoinderstoyourcritiquesofCampbellandthePlant
Positiveauthor,asthelatterhasdonethisindetailinhisrecent
powerpointyoutubepostings.
LetmestateonceagainthatIamnotaveganoranyotherkindof
vegetarian.However,Idobelievethatthebulkofevidencesupports
avegetariandietoveranomniverousdiet.Ihavepersonallymade
thechoicenottoadoptavegetariandietduetogenerallygood
healthstatusonanorganicomniverousdiet,aswellasforhedonic
reasons.
Justafurthercommentregardingpostingetiquette.Forthose
postersonthissitewhohaveapenchantfornamecallingandother
slurs,youmaybelievethatyouarebeingauthenticandtellingit
likeitis.Intruth,whatyouaredoing,isdestroyingyourcredibility
byanunskillfuldisplayofemotionalincontinenceandrudeness.
OnceagainDenise,thankyouforcreatingthisforumandforyour
continuedworkinthefieldofnutrition.
KindRegards,
BrianJ.MacLean
Reply
21032012
Charlie(10:55:23):
Animalfarmingisanefficientuseofland
http://www.secondopinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html#link1
Whyfailuretothriveonvegetarian
dietsisrarelytalkedabout
http://beyondveg.com/nicholsonw/vegprob/vegprobscen1b.shtml
138/233
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Reply
21032012
Richard(11:55:27):
Whyfailuretothriveonvegetarian
dietsisrarelytalkedabout
Ithinkitstalkverymuch,youcertainlyseemtobeverywellaware
ofit.Heresmytwocent.ManyaspiringvegeteriansinUSenterthe
scenethroughextremelydobiousframe.Mostofthetimeitsthe
rawscene.Moreoverer,manyofthesepeopleharbourthesame
thoughtsondietaseveryoneelse,carbsareunhealthyfruitmakes
youfat.Orthentheyjusteatsoyfivetimesadayinadditionto
beingrawveganandpretenditwasparticularlythevegandietthat
madethemsick.
However,youindifferentsituation.Iamheretotellyouthatcarbs
wontmakeyoufat.Skippingunprocessedcarbsonvegdietislikely
toendupbadly.Weneverseeanyoneendingupintroublesamong
thosepeoplewhofollowf.exveganRDGinnyMessinasblog,have
readtheworksofMichaelGreger,Esselstyn,Barnard,etc.Itsonly
thekindofwhackjobswhospeakaboutentzymeswhoenterinto
problemswithvegdiet,andfranklyitsoftennottheonlyissuethey
enduphavingproblemswithinlife.
Reply
21032012
Richard(11:47:07):
NicecommentsBrian,
PrimitiveNutritionhasdonesuchstaggeringjobbthatthepaleo
crewcanonlypretendhedoesntexist.
Thethreeadditionalvideosoncholesterolareamazing.Ithinkwe
alllearnfromthesethatifscientistwanttoinflictanatherosclerosis
onusquicklyaspossible,theydoitbyfeedingustheInuitdiet,not
lectinsnorwheat.Thankstoplantpositiveanyonereferringto
Tokelayns,Masai,Inuitasmodelforgoodhealthwillendup
lookinglikeabordelineretarded.
Futilityofcholesteroldenialism
139/233
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IfinditveryinterestingthatMissMingerrecommendsthedietof
KurtHarrisforpeoplelookingdietadvices,intrestingespeciallyin
thecontextthatHarrishasdisclosedpeoplefollowinghisregimeget
theircholesterolonthe300mg/dlregionprettyquickly.Moreover,
interestingalsointhecontextofHarrisbeingpartofreligioussect
thatthinksAncelKeysiscriminalwhichshouldrevealallabout
whatkindofintellectualpowerhouseDrHarrisis.justsaying
Reply
21032012
Wizzu(13:22:14):
Thisvideostartwithpureadhominem:areyoufoolishenoughto
believesomerandomInternetblog(Freetheanimal)ratherthan
confirmedscientists?
IfIapplythesamedishonestreasoningtothesevideos:why
believesomeANONYMOUSvideoonYoutuberatherthanbooks
writtenbydoctorswithrealnames?(forthegulliblepeopleout
therewhoboughttheargumentinthevideothatonlyonlinefools
arecholesterolskeptics,Ihavenewsforyou:thereareactual
*doctors*exposingthefallacyofthecholesterolhypothesisinactual
*books*)
Whenapresentationstartsthisway,IjustKNOWthatitsgoingto
bebullshit,becausepeoplewhousethisapproach(anonymity,
fallaciousrethorics,adhominemarguments)alwaysdistort
everythingtheytouchwithbias,prejudice,groupthinking.Thats
notthewayofactualthinkers.Itappealstopeoplewithpoorcritical
thinkingskills.Ivereadcountlessmaterialmakingafarbettercase
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forthecholesterolhypothesis,thanthesesophomoricvideosthat
justregurgitatethecurrentdoxa,inawaythatsnotevenremotely
interestingatthat.
Reply
21032012
Richard(14:15:57):
Theabovevideoisresponsetooriginalprimitivenutritionseries
whichcoverscholesterolalreadyindetail.Youddoyourselfagreat
favorbyforgettingyourrulesaboutadhominemsandactuallyjust
watchthevidoes.PrimitivenutritionsworkedforDeniseMinger
verywell.Shecertainlyinvestedhertimeinthem,maybeeventoo
muchassheplagiatedherwholeblogpostbasedon
primitivenutritionsoriginalwork.So,itssafetosay,youarenot
dealingwithBShere.
Mingerlikesmythbustingandwhoknows,maybehernext
plagiatedworkisThetruthaboutlipidhypothesisweallgotit
wrong,inwhichsheofcoursereferstothosehalfretardedcavemen
quackswhogotitwrong.
Reply
21032012
James(14:22:35):
Thetrollisback!!Dontgetintothegutterwithhimfolks,someare
simplybeyondhelp.Sobeit.
Reply
21032012
Heidi(14:45:02):
Yep.Itsdoubtfulanythingproductivecomesfromthis.But,maybe
byrespondingtothetroll,weareabletosolidifyourown
thoughts/beliefs?Still,timetomoveon,seriouslyThereisahuge
differencebetweenanintelligentargumentandjustsomeonewith
misguidedanger
Reply
21032012
Richard(16:52:47):
@Wizzu,
anddontforgetthesedoctorswhoarecholesteroldeniersarealso,
everysingleoneofthem,inthefaiththatAncelKeysmanipulated
thedata.Thisshouldallrevealhowsincereandintellectual
powerhousesthesedoctorsare.Theseclownsarenotevenwillingto
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doarudimentaryresearch,thatswhyitssoridiculouslyeasyto
pointtheirfallaciesforsomeonewithrealtalent,suchas
primitivenutrition.
Inhisarticle,thecauseofatherosclerosisthechiefeditorfor
AmericanJournalofCardiologysaysheartdiseaseisaquestionof
onefactorandthatscholesterol.Oneisimmunetoheartdisease
withtotalserumcholesterolunder150mg/dlnomatterwhatyoudo,
drink,smoke,stress,etc,sinceitsphysiologicallyimpossiblefor
atherosclerosistodevelopeunderthemagictresholdundernormal
conditions.ThisfactisnicleyillustratedintheFraminghamstudy
forexample.Robertshashostedabout1300scientificarticles.I
pointedoutthistoMingerwhileshedebunkeditbysayingthat
RobertswasreferringtodebunkedAncelKeysstudyinteralia
andthuscannotbetakenseriously.LOLsowhoisthetwisted
troll?
Also,Idliketoadd,Iamnottrollingortryingtoconvinceyouto
plantbaseddiets,youguysaretwisted,stupidmuppets,completely
brainwashedbythissectlikereligiouslipidconfusionists.However,
itssooosatisfyingtoknow,thatanyoneenteringthescenewith
openmindisveryunliketofallforMingers&CosBSonceweget
thismaterialouttopeople.Brianabovemakesagoodexample.
Reply
21032012
Charlie(17:27:33):
FraminghamHeartStudy
http://www.secondopinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html
Reply
21032012
Wizzu(20:12:49):
Theseclownsarenotevenwillingtodoarudimentaryresearch
Sigh.Lookwhotalking.Richardthereisahugegapbetweenwhat
youthinkyourknow/learnedaboutallthis,andwhatyouactually
know/learned,whichisnotmuch.Youretoobusybeingrude,
agressiveandpostingcrap,toactuallylearnmuch,Iguess.
Aspreviouslystated,youarebeingsophomoric,justliketheguyin
thesevideos(whoIsuspectisprobablyyou).
Thesevideos(thatIdidlookat,aspainfulasitwas)didnthave
anythingtoteachme.Ialreadyknewallthesearguments,which
havealreadybeenvoicedbymuchbrightermindsandbetterorators
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thanthisanonymousclown.Ifthebigguysdidntconvinceme,
howonearthcouldthesepoorvideoschangemypointofview?
Ifyouaresosurethatcholesterolcausesheartdisease,itshouldnt
bedifficultforyoutofindascientificproof.Imeanarealproof,not
conjecturesfromassociationsfoundinepidemiologicalstudiesor
theopinionofsomespecialist.Bringthescientificproof.Good
luck:forIfitactuallyexisted,therewouldntbesomanyskeptics.
Reply
22032012
Richard(07:13:37):
Startwiththis,letmeknowwhenyouaredonesoIllgiveabout150
papersinaddition.
TheLipidResearchClinicsCoronaryPrimaryPreventionTrial
results.I.Reductioninincidenceofcoronaryheartdisease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6361299
Reply
22032012
Richard(07:59:52):
And,no.Iamnotbehind
http://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition?ob=0
Iwouldneverhavethetalentforputaworklikethat,howeverIdo
havethetalenttofigureoutinwhichkindofanintellectual
hierarchyMasterjohn,Minger,Harris,etcstandsnexttotheman
behindprimitivenutritionseries.
Ifdontbelieveme,thentrustMinger,itwasshe,notme,who
plagiatedherwholeblogpostbasedononesegmentoftheseries.
Imitationisverysincereformandadmiration,Iguess.
Reply
22032012
Wizzu(15:12:11):
Aaah,yes,thefamouscholestyraminetrial.
Cholestyraminehasalonglistofmetaboliceffects:
.lowersLDL(theobviousreasonwhyitsbeenchosenforthestudy,
ofcourse)
.increasesHDL(notbymuch,butitsthere)
.Increasestriglycerides
.lowerssomekindsofinflammation
.bindsseveralkindsofdangeroustoxins
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.bindsfatsolublevitamins(A,D,E,K)
.forcesthelivertomakemoreglycocholicacid
thelistgoeson.
Sonowtellme,Richard.Whatmakeslowercholesterolthebest
explanationforthereductioninCHDfromcholestyramineintake,
ratherthan:
.betterHDL/LDLratio(sincecholestyraminelowersLDLwithout
loweringHDL)
.transitionallackofvitaminA
.thedetoxifyingeffectofcholestyramine
.someotherpossiblemetaboliceffectofcholestyraminethathasnt
evenbeeninvestigated?
Thereplyis:blindfaith,brainwashing,hiddenagenda,groupthink,
doxa,andlackofrationalthinking.Justwhatyouthinkare*our*
problems.
Thisstudy(whichasmetlotsofcontroversyinitstime,andnotonly
fromcholesterolskeptics)isvery,veryfarfrombeingascientific
proofthatcholesterolcausesheartdisease.Tryharder.
Reply
23032012
Richard(12:58:44):
Gee.lookatthat,havecholesteroldenierscritizedthatstudy,in
additionperceivingAncelKeysascriminal,wellsinceitdidntdo
foryou,wecancontinue,better?
SaturatedfatrichdietenhancesselectiveuptakeofLDLcholesteryl
estersinthearterialwall
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1177997/
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(13:48:25):
Iknowthispaper.Ilikeit.
WhatsreallyfunnyisthatthisverypapergoestotallyAGAINST
yourbeliefthatcholesterolcausesheartdisease.
Asinglequotefromthisstudywillbeenough:adecreasedtrendin
theincidencerateofCHDwithanincreasingHDLcholesterollevel
wasconsistentinpeoplewithanylevelofLDLcholesterol.
SoyouincreaseHDL(thus,UPPINGcholesterol)andCHD
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SoyouincreaseHDL(thus,UPPINGcholesterol)andCHD
decreases,WHATEVERtheLDLlevelsare.So,attheend,whatever
theTClevelis,youcandecreaseCHDbyuppingcholesterol,as
longasitsHDL.
Thisstudyisactuallyoneofthedozensshowingthattotal
cholesterollevelspersehavenorelationwithheartdisease.
Lipoproteinsratio(LDL/HDL)areadifferentstory.
Imprettysurethatyouareveryconfusedastowhatactuallyare
cholesterol,HDL;LDL,Triglyceridesandsoon.Areyouaware
forinstance,thattechnically,neitherLDLnorHDLareeven
cholesterol?Theyarelipoproteins.
Stillwaitingforaproofthatcholesterolcausesheartdisease.A
hint:avoidpostingpapersyoudidntevenread,unlessyoujust
wanttokeeponlookinglikeafool,likeyoudoherebypostinga
studygoingagainstyourbeliefs
Getsmarter:postless,research/learnmore.
22102013
Ebony(19:16:11):
Yourcommentwasthebestthingaboutthispage.Untilthese
veganscanfindONEcivilizationinthehistoryoftheentireworld
thatdidnteatmeat(andthrive)thenIwillsticktobeingan
omnivore.Youdontneedsciencetoknowwhatisright.
Reply
20052012
Louis(14:47:52):
thetopspecialistsintherelevantfieldshavecometoavirtually
unanimousconculsion:Yes,highbloodcholesterolispreventable
riskfactorforheartdisease.
Indeeditis,andnobodyisclaiminganythingdifferent.
Whatsbeingclaimedisthatthelinkbetweendietarycholesterol
andbloodcholesterolispoor,andthatitisanepiphenomenona
(notsogood)predictor.
Therestofthisvideoisamixtureofadhominemattacksand
argumentfromauthority.
Reply
23032012
neisy(09:08:59):
145/233
11/20/2014
HiBrian,
Thankyousomuchforsharingabitofyourbackgroundand
voicingyourperspectivesorespectfully.Ithinkdisagreementsand
alternateviewpointswhentheydontdevolveintocharacter
attacksarethemostvaluablepartofanynutritionaldiscourse,
sincetheyforceustoconsidernewanglesandhopefullyclimb
closertowhateverthetruthis.Ihopeyoullstickaroundand
continuecontributingtothediscussionshere!
Asothershavesuggested,usingveganandvegetarian
interchangeablycouldbeaproblemsincethenutritionaldifference
betweenveganismandvegetarianismismuchbiggerthanbetween
vegetarianismandomnivorism.Eggsanddairystillprovidea
numberofanimalbasednutrientsthatcouldwardofftheissues
manyvegansendupfacing,andItendtothinkawelldesigned
vegetariandietcouldbeprettysustainableformanyfolks.And
althoughresearchonvegansislimited,somestudiessuggestthey
haveasignificantlyhighermortalityratethanvegetariansand
healthconsciousomnivores(e.g.,
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/14/4/963.fullBeingavegan
wasassociatedwithahighermortalityrisk(1.59;95%CI,0.982.59)
thanbeingalactoovovegetarian(1.08;95%CI,0.861.34),when
comparedwithnonvegetarianswithmoderatemeat/fish
consumption,accountingforallothervariables).
Thanksagainforyourthoughts,andforthekindwords.
Denise
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(10:48:20):
[...]thenutritionaldifferencebetweenveganismandvegetarianism
ismuchbiggerthanbetweenvegetarianismandomnivorism.Eggs
anddairystillprovideanumberofanimalbasednutrientsthat
couldwardofftheissuesmanyvegansendupfacing[...]
Imgladthatyouinsistonthedifferencebetweenvegetarianismand
veganism,whichisindeedmuchbiggerthanmostomnivores(and
sometimesevenvegetariansthemselves)seemtothink.Theseare
twovery,verydifferentwaysofeating.
[...]andItendtothinkawelldesignedvegetariandietcouldbe
prettysustainableformanyfolks.[...]
AndImgladthatwesharethisopinion.
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Youcanbeavegetarianandnevertouchgrainsorlegumes.Youcan
liveonvegetables,dairy,eggs,cheese,nutsandImprettysure
thatifwelldesigned,suchadietcanbehealthy.Thoughitsharder
todesignitproperly,andfollowit,thanabalancedomnivorous
diet:Iforone,threwthetowelafter12yearsoftryingtokeepup
withtheeverydaythinkingaboutpossiblemissingnutrientsinmy
diet.Butforpeoplewhoareenclinedtoit,Imallforvegetarianism.
Ontheotherhand,avegancantlivelongwithoutacombinationof
grainsandlegumes,sincenovegetablecanbringtheproper
proteinsinthediet.Besides,itwillbedifficulttoprovidetheproper
amountoffatsolublevitamins.SoIconsideravegandietasabeing
simplyanonsensicalconcept,evenmoresosinceIseezeroreason
nottoeatdairy(assumingyourenotintoleranttoitofcourse)
andeggs,otherthanfromthecommonmisconceptionthattheseare
badforyourhealthbecauseofcholesterolandsatfat.Eventhe
moralstandpoint(exploitinganimals)doesntmakeanysensewhen
youdigintoit.
ApartfromthesepopulationsinIndiawhereveganismisa
traditionalwayoflife,whichImustrespect,Iseeveganismeitheras
afad,asanimmaturewayoffeelingspecial,orasadepersonalizing
moraldogma.
Vegetarianismiscompletely,entirelydifferent.
Reply
23032012
Richard(13:12:08):
Minger,
whydidntrevealusthatthewasonly23reporteddeathsinthe
vegangroup,thatwouldhelpustoputthingsintoperspective.
Moreover,failedtoreportthis,
Thenonsignificantreductioninmortalityfromischemicheart
diseasesinvegetarianscomparedwithhealthconsciouspersons
couldbeexplainedinpartbyavoidanceofmeatintake.
Now,ifnonhealthconsciousvegeterians(andVegans)doatleastas
wellashealthconsciousomnivores,shouldntweallbevegeterians,
keepingmindtheecologicandethicalreasons.Iwonderhowhealth
consciousvegeterianswouldhavefared.
Reply
21032012
147/233
11/20/2014
anna(07:11:48):
LetmestateonceagainthatIamnotaveganoranyotherkindof
vegetarian.However,Idobelievethatthebulkofevidencesupports
avegetariandietoveranomniverousdiet.
Brian,Iammostcertainlynotanexpert,however
ItriedtoreadCampbellsbookandrejecteditasapieceofvegan
propaganda
Ididntwatchanyofthevideos(Campbellsorthisanonymous
guy)soIwontcommenthere
Thereisahugedifferencebetweenveganismandvegetarianism
anditseemsstrangethatyouignorethedifference.Ifindcomments
like:Veganresearchersarewonderful,VEGETARIANdietis
superiortoomnivorousdietstrange.WhatamImissing?
Reply
21032012
ThankyouforyourcommentAnna.Withregardtomyomissionof
drawingadistinctionbetweenavegandietandotherformsof
vegetarianism,thisisfortworeasons.First,Ihavenopersonal
experiencewithavegandiet.Secondly,Iamnotawareofanywell
donestudiescomparingacarefullyconstructedvegandietand,let
ussay,alactoovovegetariandiet.Thestudiesavailableappearto
havetoomanyconfoundingvariabletodrawfirmconclusions.
Withregardtoyourquestion,WhatamImissing?,intheinterestof
notclutteringthispostwithexcesswords,Ithinkyouwouldfind
whatyouaremissinginthePlantPositivevideos.
Regards,
BrianJ.MacLean
Reply
21032012
anna(17:26:28):
Brian,wellIdontthinkwerecommunicating.
Somethingisreally,really,reallywrong.
Youdonthaveapersonalexperiencewithveganism,butitdoesnt
preventyoufrompromotingpromotersofveganismandstating
thatvegetarianism?(youmeanveganism?)issuperior.Forgiveme
mylogicalinclinations,butIamanunrealizedmathematician.
Reply
21032012
Anna,asIsaidinmyearlierposting,Iammakingstatements
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Anna,asIsaidinmyearlierposting,Iammakingstatements
primarilybasedondataandthequalityofconclusionsdrawnfrom
thesedata,notpersonalexperience.However,onapersonallevel,I
havenotedthatmycholesterolmeasuresaremorefavorablewitha
reductioninsaturatedfat.Becauseofotherfavorablelifestyle
factors,Ihavetendedtoignorethis,perhapsfoolishly.IfIsufferany
cardiacevents(andifIsurvivethem)asaresultofmylessthan
optimalcholesterolratios,Iwillperhapsbemorequalifiedtoshare
withyoumypersonalexperienceresultingfromtheomnivorediet.
Reply
21032012
Richard(19:48:40):
Havinghealthmindedmindsetandbasedontheallthedatawe
have.Idneveraccepthavingmytotalserumcholesterolunder
150mg/dl,everythingelseisplayingwithrisks.
Reply
21032012
Richard(19:49:51):
Over150mg/dl,thatis
Reply
21032012
gager(19:56:52):
Ifyourtotalcholesterolisunder150youmaybeindangerof
serioushealthissues.Cholesterolisvitalforgoodhealth.
Reply
21032012
Thisisagoodquestion(seriously,nosnark).Wehearalotabout
howbadcholesterol,butclosetonothingaboutwhatthebodydoes
withitIRL.Ihaveheardthatitwrapsnervesandisusedasa
precursortovitD(andIsupposeotherhormonesthatareclosely
relatedchemically),butnotinmuchdetail.Whatdopeopleknow
aboutthebenefits&usesofthevariousclassesoflipoproteins?
Imsurethebodydoesntproducelipoproteins&cholesterolforthe
purposeofgivingpeopleheartattacks. Theyhaveanimportant
function,whichitcouldbeinterestingtounderstand.
Beth
Reply
21032012
anna(21:33:07):
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Richard,Ithinkhesright.Stoptypingandstartreading.
Reply
21032012
Richard(17:04:28):
ThewayIseeitisthat,weindeeddonothaveanydatasuggesting
forveganism.However,IcannotcomprehendwhyIhouldaddany
animalproductsinmydiet.AsJoelFuhrmannicelysaidanimal
productsarelikeprocessedfood.Lackingallthemicronutrients.
Theaverageplantfoodhasabout64timesmoreantioxidants
comparedtoanimalfoods.Inadditionyougetloadsofcholesterol
andsaturatedalongthepackage.Keepinmindthatthelipid
hypothesisisonemostestablished,researchedandapprovedmodel
inmedicalcommunity.Nothanks.So,Iamhappytobe100%vegan
eventhoughthelast510%maybeduetofaith,ethicsandspiritual
reasons,Ithinkthatsenoughtocompensatethelackofdata.
Reply
21032012
Youseriouslythinkanimalfoodsarenotnutritionallydense?Geta
clue.Andthelipidhypothesisislosingtractioninscientificcircles
daybyday.Andyouknowwhat,agoodsirloinsteakmightjust
taketheedgeofftheobviousveganrageyouarewalkingaround
with.
Reply
21032012
Richard(19:42:12):
Dudewhatanearthareyoutalkingabout.Apparentlyyouare
livingsomekindofareligioussectlife,whereyourscientistare
madeofpeoplewhothinkAncelKeysiscriminal.Welcometo
reality.Youcanstartthatbyintroducingyourselfto
primitivenutritionvideoserieonyoutube.Lipidhypothesisis
particularlyemphasizedintheadditionalresponseserie.Itsa
freesecondopinionforyou.Useit.
Iamsureanimalproductsarenutritious,howeverthequestionwe
oughttobeaskingis,nutritiousnexttowhat?
Reply
21032012
No,Iamnotlivingsomekindofareligioussectlife,whateverthe
heckthatmeans.Iamaverylogicalguywhohashadahuge
interestinhealthforoveradecade.Simplybeingaparrotand
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repeatingpooryoutubematerialdoesnotanargumentmake.
Thelipidhypothesisisdyingonthevineandinagenerationortwo
willhavegonethewayoftheflatearthsociety.Itsimplydoesnot
holduptoscrutiny.TheguywhoIthinkexclaimstheroleof
cholesterolinhealthbetterthananyoneisChrisMasterjohn.Ifyou
arewillingtobroadenyourhorizonsanddosomeresearchonhis
arguments,youwilllearnagreatdeal.
Ihavesaidthisseveraltimesonthisforum.Theenemyofhealthy
omnivoreslikemyselfisnotvegans(althoughItrulybelievethey
aremisguided)oravegandietpersay,andtheenemyofvegans
shouldnotbehealthyomnivores.Theenemyofbothandofall
peoplewhotrulyhaveaninterestinhealthylivingisthe
horrendousStandardAmericanDiet(SAD)anditsproliferationof
processedcrap.Thatdietthreatenstobankruptthenationwith
spiralinghealthcarecostsduetometabolicsyndrome,type2
diabetes,heartdisease,canceretc.thatistaxingourhealthcare
systemandcontinuestospiraloutofcontrol.
Ifwecouldsomehowmagicallymakepeoplegiveuptheprocessed
craptheyeatandsticktorealfood(meat,vegetables,fruit,tubers,
eggs,nuts,somedairy)andeschewallmanufacturedfood,we
wouldveryquicklybecomemuchhealthier,lowertheobesity
epidemicdramaticallyreininhealthcarecosts.Alas,itisntgoingto
happenbutonecandream.
Reply
22032012
anna(11:47:47):
Sorry,guys,butaremissingsomethingveryimportantnamelythe
qualityoflifeitself.Youcantexpectpeoplewhoareunemployed
andlosingtheirhousesandmedicalcareorpeoplewholivein
terrorofaworkplaceandthehorrorofbeingunemployedand
losingtheirhousesandmedicalcaretowalkleisurelytoafarmer
market(possiblythousandsmilesaway)forafresh,veryfreshpiece
ofsomethingforthisevening,thentospendhourspreparingthis
freshpieceofsomethingandtheneducatethemselveswhatwould
begoodforthenexteveningandwheretogetitWhenpeople
workinterrorforsome80hoursaweek,theycollapseafterworks
charmsandpleasuresinfrontofstupidTVwithsomecomfortfood
inhandormouth.
Somanycommentsherearesoelitistandsodetachedfromreality.
Reply
22032012
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Richard(13:02:58):
Annawhatweneedisanewintensivegovermentsponsored
educationprogramagainstthedangersofcholesterolandsaturated
fat.Thiswaycouldalignmorepeoplewiththescienceofyear2012
andhelpthemtomakebetterlifestylechoices.
Reply
22032012
Wizzu(15:19:37):
Thereisnoprovencorrelationbetweensaturatedandheartdisease.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract
Also,manyofuswhoreintroducedsaturatedfat*and*lowered
carbs,foundthattheirbloodlipidsimproved,sometimes
dramaticallyso.Countmein.
Reply
22032012
Richard(18:57:28):
Epidemiologicstudiesonhomogenicculturesdoesnotreallygive
anymerittotheideathatdietcausessickness,thatswhybecause
everyoneisalreadyinahighriskdiet.Thesaturatedfathypothesis
comesfromclinicaltrials,drugtrials,crossculturalepidemiologic
studies,etc.
Thesaturatedfatcausedheartdiseaseisprovedfromthewaist
downthousandsoftimes,sothattheonlyoneyouhaveleftwho
doesnotbelieveinitarefolkswhothinkAncelkeysiscriminal.
Reply
22032012
Wizzu(19:34:34):
downthousandsoftimesYeah,right.Keeponchanting,
mindlessparrot,lobotomizedthatyouarebythedoxaimposedby
thepharmaceuticallobbyandshortsightedincompetent
technocrats.Unabletothinkonyourown.
Untilyouprovidetheactualproofyouaretalkingabout(nowyou
haveTWOproofstoprovide,thatwewillofcourseneversee),
yourallegationsareasgoodasSantaKlausexistsandithasbeen
provedfromthewaistdownthousandsoftimes.Simplyrepeating
somethingdoesntmakeitanytruer.
Youhavealoooongwaytogo,sonny.Yourenotevenscratching
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Youhavealoooongwaytogo,sonny.Yourenotevenscratching
thesurface:yourejustsingingwiththeignorant,mindlessmob,
trainedtobarkattheoneswithrealinsight,theveryonestryingto
saveyoufromyourslavelife.Fivehundredyearsago,youwould
haveburnedinnocentwomen,shoutingtheyrewitches,itsbeen
proven!.
Nowthatwasfuntowrite.
Reply
22032012
ChrisSEA(19:35:42):
downthousandsoftimes
Sorry,makingexcathedrastatementslikethatdoesntmakeittrue.
IfthisweresotrueWestonPricewouldhavefoundpeopledying
rightandleftfromheartdiseaseandothermoderndegenerative
diseaseswhiledoingcrossculturalstudies.Buthedidnt.He
foundveryhealthygroupsofpeoplewhoatelotsofcholesteroland
saturatedfat.
Andofcoursenaturechosesaturatedfatsasagreatsourceof
energy.Ruminantsasanexampleconvertallthatcellulosetheyeat
intosaturatedfatswhichareoneoftheirprimaryenergysources.
Pleasegoaway.Itsthekindofnonsenseyoureespousingthatled
thegovernmentandcorporationstotellpeoplethat
polyunsaturateslikecornoilarehearthealthyandnaturaland
healthy.
Reply
13092012
Charlie(18:56:23):
http://omega6omega3
balance.omegaoptimize.com/2009/01/30/theamericanheart
associationsagendaitsureaintscienceorpublichealth.aspx?
ref=rss
WhatistheAmericanHeartAssociationsAgenda?ItSureAint
ScienceorPublicHealth
Controversyanddebateareanexpected(andwelcome)partofthe
scientificprocess.ButtheAmericanHeartAssociationsrecent
advisoryurgingAmericanstogobbleuptheiromega6fatisan
unconscionabledisservice,toboththescientificprocessandthe
publichealth.
153/233
11/20/2014
OldSchoolCholesterolDogmaversusScience
OnJanuary27,2009theAmericanHeartAssociation(AHA)issued
anadvisorytoutingthebenefitsofeatingplentyofomega6fats.
HerestheproblemAHAmadesweepingstatementsthatarenot
supportedbytheresearch,whileignoringlandmarkstudies,which
dontsupporttheirviews[Harris].Whilethecholesterolmythhas
finallybeenputtorestasthecauseunderlyingheartdisease(its
inflammationandbeyond),itwouldseemthathearthealthyeating
wouldneedsomerefinement.
Yet,theAmericanHeartAssociationskeyrationaleforpromoting
omega6polyunsaturatedfats,isbecauseoftheirabilitytolower
bloodcholesterol,wheneatenintheplaceofsaturatedfats.(Keepin
mindthatoneoutofeverytwopeoplewithheartdiseasehasa
normalbloodcholesterollevel.)Furthermore,theAHAassertsthat
ifAmericansweretolowertheircurrentomega6fat,theirheart
healthwouldsuffer.
Omega6fatintakehasskyrocketedinthelastcentury,soitwould
seemthatweshouldseeadramaticloweringofheartdiseaseinthe
USA,yes?No.Theincidenceofcardiovasculardiseasehasincreased
inparallelwiththeincreaseinlinoleicacidintakesinmany
countries[Ghosh].Linoleicacidisthemostcommonlyeatenomega
6fattyacid.heartdiseasehavehigherbloodlevelsoftheomega6
fat,arachidonicacid,asshownbelow[Okuyama].
yes?No.Theincidenceofcardiovasculardiseasehasincreasedin
parallelwiththeincreaseinlinoleicacidintakesinmanycountries
[Ghosh].Linoleicacidisthemostcommonlyeatenomega6fatty
acid.Notably,peoplewhohavediedfromheartdiseasehavehigher
bloodlevelsoftheomega6fat,arachidonicacid,asshownbelow
[Okuyama].
Reply
22032012
YouknowAnna,sometimesyouarejustapainintheyouknow
whatandyoushouldgetoffyourownhighhorse.Imsickofyour
verytiredact.
Reply
22032012
Wizzu(16:41:18):
DearMario,Iloveyourpostsandweoftenthinkalongthesame
lines.ButIpersonallybelievethatsoundwordsaresoundwords,
wherevertheycomfrom.SoifAnnawritessoundwords,sobeit:
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whateverherrealmotives,theyarestillsoundwords.
Shehadtheintellectualhonestytoreckonthesametwoweeksago
(sheseesmeasanazi,butsherecognizedthatmywordsmade
sensedespiteherpooropinionofmeasaperson).SoImkinda
enclinedtocuthersomeslackinthisarea,ifyouseewhatImean.
Itsdifficulttokeepapersonaldisciplineofavoidingadhominen,
isntit? Tome,itsaneverydaystruggle.ButIthinkitsworthit.
Reply
22032012
Whenshewritessoundwords,Idontmakeacommentliketheone
Imadeabove.Infact,mosttimes,Ibitemytonguenomatterhow
offtopicorlamehercommentsare.Inthiscase,Ihadsimplyhad
hadenough.Thatlastonewasjustalittletooarrogantandalittle
toopiousforme.
WhereinGodsgreenearthdidhercommentaboutworking80
hoursaweekandwalkingthousandsofmilestofarmersmarkets
andtakinghourstopreparethatfoodetccomefrom?
Itwasinresponsetosimplecommentabouteatingrealfood.Guess
what?Forthemostpart,realfoodisnotthatexpensive(oratleast
youcancertainlychooserealfoodsthatarenotthatexpensive),is
availableineverysupermarketinthenationandcanbepreparedin
alotlessthanhoursandhours.Iwork,Iamasingledadof4
(admittedlytheyareolderranginginagefrom16to24,buttheystill
alllivewithmewiththe3oldestinuniversityhereinCalgary),and
Igotothegymeveryday.Istillmakeittothesupermarketevery
daytobuywhatIamgoingtocookfordinnerthatnightand
preparewholesomebutmostlysimplemealsprettymucheveryday
oftheyear.
DoIsympathizewithobesepeopleandwithpeoplewhomake
terriblefoodchoiceseveryday?VERYMUCHSO.Manypeople
thinktheyaremakinggreatchoiceswhentheyarent.Weplace
hearthealthystickersonEggoWafflesforgoodnesssake.No
wondertheaverageconsumerisconfusedandmakesterrible
choices.Ithinkunlessonedoesanawfullotofpersonalresearch,
knowingwhatisagooddietisextremelydifficult.Processedfood
companiesspendbillionstryingtoconvinceusthatCocoPuffsisa
healthychoicetofeedourchildren,andthereisamassiveamount
ofmisinformationfloatingouttheresothatevenmanypeoplewho
arehealthconsciousstillhavenoideawhattoeat.Itinfuriatesme
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thatourgovernments,consciouslyornotcontinuetopropagate
mythsthatkeeppeopleunhealthy,flirtingwithtype2diabetesand
metabolicsyndromeetc
Thefactremainsthough,thatthevastmajorityofpeoplestilleatfar
toomuchmanufacturedfood,nomatterwhatthereason.Ifover
time,throughLordknowswhatmeansandmethodswecanchange
thatmentalityandgetthemajorityofpeopletomakerealfood
theirchoicethevastmajorityofthetime,theywillbebetteroffand
wewillbehugelybetteroffasasocietythatisbeingcrippledby
healthcarecoststhatarequicklyspiralingoutofcontrol.
Reply
22032012
gager(17:52:45):
HeyMario,verymuchenjoyedyourcommentbutIwouldliketo
emphasizethatgovernmentshouldstayoutofthehealthadvise
businessandlettheconsumermakethechoiceofwhostaysorgoes
inbusiness.Moreandmorepeoplearegoingtograssfedandaway
fromfactoryfood.Ihavetwo5cubicfootfreezerswhichallowme
tobuyinbulkatdiscount.Imjustfinishing190lbsofbeefandI
thinknextIllgowithfullfatpork.Ishopforfoodaboutoncea
monthtogetmyvegiesthatenhancemymeatcenteredmeals.Istay
awayfromgrainsandanythingwithsugar.Ivediscoveredseveral
thingsbuyinginbulk.Bonesoupisdelicious,surprisedme.
Reply
22032012
Unfortunately,ourgovernmentisinthehealthadvicebusiness.
Thatispartoftheproblem.Thegovernmentfoodpyramidisa
bigpartoftheproblem.Idogetyouroverallpointhoweverabout
governmentinvolvementbeingkepttoaminimum.
Asfarasbonesoupisconcerned,Iamwithyoualltheway.I
boughtahugesouppotawhilebackandprettymucheveryweekI
makeabigbatchofbonebroth(Ibuysomesoupbonesfromthe
localmarketandwhateverelseIhavegatheredinthelastweek
fromeverydayeating)andletitsimmerforupto48hoursandthen
usethatasabaseforsoup.Illthrowineverythingbutthekitchen
sinkinthatbrothwithatonofdifferentspicesanditalmostalways
comesoutdelicious.Realgoodforyouandjustplainyummyto
boot.
Reply
22032012
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11/20/2014
Wizzu(17:54:05):
Nowthatsareplythatmakessense.
IdontthinkIcanfindanypartinitthatImnotinagreementwith.
Yourerightaboutrealfoodactuallycostingnomorethanjunk.
Actually,Ithinkitcostsevenless(evenmoresoifWecountthe
healthcarecostsbutImnotevengoingthere).Butwhatdoescost
more,is*premium*realfood,likegrassfedmeat,organic
vegetablesandsoon.Evenso,itsstillpossibletoreducethecosts
byeatingorgansandfattycutsratherthanleanmeats,whichis
whatIdoBTW.Butthisneedseducationinasocietywherepeople
aremoreeasilydisgustedbychickenliverthantheyarebyTwinkies
orsugarloadeddrinkssigh.
Reply
22032012
Chickenliversandchickenheartsaredelicious.Thereisalittleplace
thatsellsorganicchickenliversandheartsfrompasturedhenson
mywayhomefromworkandthatisaregulartreat.Cheap,
delicious(withsauteedonionsandacoupleoffriedeggs),chicken
heartsandliversareatreat.HavetosayIamevenmorepartialto
thehearts.
Reply
22032012
Wizzu(19:37:52):
Yeah,bonebrothrules!TothinkIdiscovereditshealthbenefits,
thenstartedthehabittoconstantlymakebroths,onlythreemonths
agowherewasI?!
Reply
22032012
anna(19:13:41):
WhereinGodsgreenearthdidhercommentaboutworking80
hoursaweekandwalkingthousandsofmilestofarmersmarkets
Well,Vachon,whydontyoucheckhowmanyvacationdays,how
manysickdays,etc,yourneighborshaveandhowmanyhoursthey
work.YourgovernmentandAmericanaredifferent,Youjustdont
knowthatandanythingelse.
Iamnotgoingtocontinuethisdiscussion.
Reply
22032012
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11/20/2014
WellAnna,howdoesitfeeltobeallknowingaboutotherpeople
andtheircultures?
Andbytheway,itisextremelyrudetoaddresssomeonebytheir
lastnamewhenyouareawareoftheirfirstname.CantsayIam
surprisedthough.Throughoutthisentireblog,inpostafterpost,
youtendtobearrogant,selfrighteousandcondescending.Itgets
realoldrealfast.
Reply
21032012
Richard(19:42:57):
Reply
22032012
Richard(08:34:50):
Ouhandfortheallthesubretardedcholesteroldenierswhothink
ChrisMasterjohnmakesupagoodscientistbytellingtheInuitsand
Masaiarehealthy.
ThisiswhatDeniseMingerwrotetoprimitivenutritionsyoutube
commentpages.
Iagreecholesteroldenialism(in
thesensethatbloodlipidsare
unrelatedtoheartdisease)isaproblem
Itsveryproblematicindeed!Youguyscanbe100%certainthatif
scientistwantedtoinflictyouatheroclerosisasquickaspossibleina
laboratory,youwouldnotbefedbywheatorlectins.
Reply
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11/20/2014
22032012
EvenMasterjohndoesnotcontendthatyoushouldjustignore
cholesterolnumbers.TrytostaywiththeprogramRichard.He
believesoxidizedLDLisacontributortoarteriosclerosis.You
obviouslyhavenotresearchedhisthoughtsonthetopicandarejust
parottingsomethingyousaworreadelsewhere.Whathedoesnt
buyintoarethatcertainlevelsareidealorthatcholesterolisa
particularlygoodmarkerforcardiachealth.
Whathecertainlydoesnotbelieveisthatingestingcholesterolinthe
formofeggs,unprocessedmeats,dairyetcisinherently
unhealthy.Quitetothecontrary,herecognizesthatthesefoodsare
extremelynutritionallydenseandhealthy.
Reply
23032012
Richard(07:51:41):
AndthatswhyMasterjohndeservesthecharacaterizationretard.
Hadyouactuallywatchprimitivenutritionschannel,youdknowall
aboutoxidizedLDL.Claimingthatcholesterolladenfoodsdoesnot
elevatecholesterolisjustsilly,sinceweclinicalevidencethatshows
itdoes.Theonlybeingthosewhoalreadyhaveskyhighblood
cholesterollevels.
Eggcholesterolinthediet
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/eggcholesterolinthediet/
Reply
23032012
Richard(07:53:47):
Theonlyexceptionbeingthosewhoalreadyhaveskyhigh
cholesterollevels,thatis.
Reply
22102013
Ebony(20:10:03):
ChrisMasterjohnNEVERsaidthatcholesterolladenfoodsdonot
elevatecholesterollevelshahaha..Whereareyougettingthis?Iam
notafollowerofmasterjohnatallandIknowheneversaidthat.He
specificallysaysthatitDOESelevateyourlevelsandthathis
cholesterollevelsareprettyhigh.Hepointedoutthatcholesterol
Levelsarenotacursorforheartdisease,andalsotalksaboutthe
differencesbetweenLDLandLDCCcholesterol.Btwpeoplein
JapanhavehighercholesterollevelsthenthoseofusinAmerica,
andtheytendtolivelongertoo
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Reply
23032012
ChrisSEA(08:00:17):
Sorry,youresofullofcrapitsnotevenfunny.Notasingleperson
followingDeniseorChristMasterjohnisgoingtotakeyou
seriously.Yourespeakingtoagroupofpeoplefarmoreawareof
thesefoodissuesthanthegeneralpublicandyourepithetladen
diatribesdontdomuchtolendyoucredibility.Youbasicallywant
ustobelievethatoldfoodscausenewdiseaseepidemics.Please.go
somewhereelsewithyourstrangeandquixoticantisaturated
fat/cholesterolfoolishnesssomewhereelse.
IreallythinkitstimeforDenisetobanyou,callingpeopleretard.
Reply
23032012
James(08:03:15):
Isecondthatmotion
Reply
23032012
neisy(08:12:13):
Richard,thisisyourthirdwarningandyouwontbegettinga
fourth.Youareabsolutelyentitledtoyourviewsandopinions,andI
wantthisblogtobeanopenplatformforanyonetosharetheir
perspective(includingyou)butwhenyoustartmakingthe
commentsectionanunpleasantplaceforotherpeople,thats
crossingaline.YouarewelcometostayIFyouexpressyour
opinionsinamorerespectfulwayandrefrainfromcallingpeople
names.Otherwise,youllbecordiallyinvitedtomyveryexclusive
bannedIPlist.
Ifyouhaveanyspecificgripesyoudliketoexpresstome,ofcourse,
youarewelcometousetheContactpageonthissite.
Shapeuporshipout,myfriend!
Reply
23032012
Iagree.Whenpeoplespeakdisrespectfullytothosetheyare
respondingto,Istopreading,butIalsodislikesuchposts.
Thanks,Beth
Reply
23032012
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James(16:03:07):
HedoesntDeniseanditdoesntlooklikehewillorcan.Itslikea
mentaldiarrheabroughtonbyaninabilitytocopewithsanepeople
havingnormalconversationsaboutpointsofview,scientific
findings,etc.Pleasestophim,itsstinkinguptheblog.
Reply
23032012
James(16:12:40):
Afterburner:AreyouawareofwhatJackKruseisuptothesedays?
Eitherheistotallyoutofit,orheisbrilliantandontheedgeof
somethingwehavebeenoverlookingallalong,likeanelephantin
theroom.AswedidforinstancewithsupplementationwithOmega
3insteadofreducingOmega6.Ithinkithomeostasisatcelllevel
andproperenergybalanceinthemitochondriaiswhereitallplays
out.Ambeginningtoapplyhiscoldthermogenesis.Carefully,
slowly,butImustadmitanicecoldshowerfeelsabsolutely
exhilarating..afterwards.
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(16:44:52):
Itslikeamentaldiarrhea[...]
Thanksforthelaugh,James.
Reply
24032012
Fortherecord,IdohopethatRicharddoesshapeupanddoesnot
getexiledtoVeganland,asthiswouldleavemequitealoneasan
occasionaldissentingvoicefromtheshadows.Whoknows,Imight
evenfeelsolonelyandalienated,thatconversiontothefoldmay
seemcompelling.Ifthisoccurred,Iamwonderingwhatwouldbe
leftforustotalkabout,asidefromcongratulatingeachotherfor
beingsmarterthanthevastmajorityofworldrenownedmedical
andnutritionscientists,withregardtothelipidhypothesis?Andof
course,thiswouldalsomakeusmuchsmarterthanLorenCordain,
whoalsomakestheegregiouserrorofgivingcredencetothelipid
hypothesis.Geez,justcontemplatingallthisgivesmeasenseof
risingselfesteem!
Reply
23032012
ThetruthabouttheNobleHunterGathererlifestyle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=nYRkNhJDZws&feature=player_embedded#!So,I,mtryingto
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recall,justwhatpartofthisnaturaltraditionisworthemulating?
Reply
23032012
James(08:07:35):
Notmanyobese,ordiabeticpeoplethere.Iguessnotmanypeople
thereeitherwhoareadrainonourhealthcaresystemandwhowill
mostlikelyruinitforallofus.
Sowhatpartofyournaturaltraditionisworthemulating?
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23032012
Yesindeed,notmanyobese,ordiabeticpeoplethereandasyou
cleverlypointout,therearenotmanypeoplethereeitherwhoarea
drainonourhealthcaresystem.Infacttherearenopeoplethere
whoareadrainonanyhealthcaresystem,becausetheydonthave
one,andassociatedwiththis,areadifferentsetofhealthproblems,
includingalikelyloadofparasites,whichassistinkeepingblood
cholesterolwithinsafelimits.Anotherobviousareawhereahealth
comparisonwithoursocietallevelisspecious,isthatthese
traditionalpeopleshaveanactivitylevelfarexceedingthoseofthe
vastmajorityofpeopleinwesterncultures.
AndJames,thereisnopartofmynaturaltraditionworth
emulating,sinceIdonthavesuchathing,andneitherdoyou.
Pretendingtobe
amodernhuntergathererorpaleolithicisjustplainsilly.You
mayhaveheardofthenaturalisticfallacy.
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23032012
gager(17:43:55):
Pretendingtobeamodernhuntergathererorpaleolithicisjust
plainsilly.
Ofcourseitwouldbesillybecausetheindustrialmachineand
divisionoflaborhaveremovedtheneedtobeahuntergathererbut
theevolutionofourmetabolismrequiresthatweeatlikeahunter
gatherer.Haveyoueverwonderedinthehistoryofmanthecostto
humanlivesfindingwhichplantsaresafetoeat?(include
mushrooms)
InregardstothevideoIthinkitwasstagedtodisplayhuntingasa
savagedisregardforanimallife.
Idontbuyit.Huntershaveagreatdealofregardforanimallife.
Whatisthesafelimitforcholesterolandhowdoyouknow?
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ChrisSEA(08:09:13):
Thisiskindofatypicalveganploy,theshocktactic.Stopwithit.
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anna(09:03:44):
Chris,youthinkthatBrianisavegan?Itlookslike.Isuspectedit
becausewhathewassayingwastooconvolutedandInevergota
straightanswer.
ButIdohaveaproblemwithsomeofpaleotenets.IthinkIjust
dontneedthemoranyothertenets.
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23032012
Sorrytoupsetyourbinaryclassificationscheme,butasIsaid
previously,Iamnotaveganoranyotherkindofvegetarian.I
consumebothmeat,fowlanddairy,althoughnotinlargequantities
andallorganic.Infact,sinceDeniseeatsadietwhichis90%plants,
sheisconsiderablyclosertobeingaveganthanmyself.Basedonthe
bulkofscientificevidence,Iwouldmoveasclosetoveganismas
Denise,butalas,Ienjoythebonvivantlifestylefartoomuch,and
quitefrankly,amnotasdisciplined.
AndAnna,youdidgetastraightanswerfromme.
Regardingyourlastpoint,Iamcuriouswhy,ifyoudontneedany
tenets,thatyouareengaginginsuchadialogue,whichislargely
abouttenets?
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23032012
anna(18:25:16):
Actually,thisbloghasalotofusefulinformationandIamlearning.
Idontseeitasideological.Denisehasclearlyananalyticalmind
andcommentsarediverse.
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23032012
gager(10:16:32):
Ohplease,thisvideoismasterfulatcreatingandintensifyinga
suspensefulgrip,notbywhatisshown,butbythemusic.
Playthesamemusicwithavideoofanursingbabyandyouwould
havethesameaffect.
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Asmallgroupofhunterswhoperformawellthoughtoutstalktoa
quickkillshouldoffendnoone.Andhuntersdonthuntto
backgroundmusic.
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23032012
Asmallgroupofhunterswhoperformawellthoughtoutstalk
notexactly.Ifyouwatchedthevideo,youwouldhavenoticedthat
thissmallgroupisoftencomposedofabout10,000
hunters(roughlythesamenumberofAfricanelephantsstillalivein
thewildstate).Andfarfrombeingawellthoughtoutstalk,itisan
inevitablekillastheyclosethevicetrappingandslaughteringthe
animalswithin.
Wonderinghowmanymeateaterswouldstillbeinterestedinthis
foodchoiceiftheyhadtogettheirownhandsdirty(i.e.,bloody)?
Wouldthisstilloffendnooneamongthosewritingonthissite?
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23032012
gager(19:02:40):
Wonderinghowmanymeateaterswouldstillbeinterestedinthis
foodchoiceiftheyhadtogettheirownhandsdirty(i.e.,bloody)?
Wouldthisstilloffendnooneamongthosewritingonthissite?
Thisisanonissue.Inalmostallsocietieswearefarremovedfrom
thekillingfloor.Isaytoobadbecausewearealsofarremovedfrom
whereourfoodcomesfrom.
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23032012
ChrisSEA(19:03:16):
Iknowpeoplethatdonthaveaproblembeingveryclosethesource
oftheirownfood.Myveryownmom,wholivesinaveryruralarea
inthecentralWesternUS,justthislastyearwenthuntingforthe
firsttimewithherhusband.Shotanelk(theyreprettyabundantout
there)andhadwildgamemeatforquitealongtimefromit.She
andherhusbandevenprocessedtheelkthemselves.
Itoldhertomakesureandeattheorganmeatsandusethebonesto
makefantasticandnutritiousbonebroths.
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24032012
Well,mychickensarerightoutsidemywindow,andIpersonally
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Well,mychickensarerightoutsidemywindow,andIpersonally
supervisewhenbeefarebutchered.Mymothertellsmethatinher
day,itwasconsideredunsafetobuyachickenalreadyplucked,
becauseyoudidntknowhowhealthythechickenwas.Shebought
themlive,thenthepersonsellingthemcleanedthemwhileyou
watched.Sono,harvestinganimalsisntreallyworsethansay,
diggingpotatoesorgatheringsoyprobablysomethingmost
vegansdontdoeither.
Smallfarmchickensandgoatsaregreatfortheenvironment.
Chickensrecyclegarbageandmakegreatmanure,whilegoatsmow
thegrassandgivegreatmilk.Beefdobestonlargeplotsof
wasteland,andlettingthebuffaloroamagainwouldbeagreat
thingfortheGulfofMexico.Inlandfishfarmscanproducegreat
fish,usingduckweedandalgaeandearthwormstogrowfish.
ButIdontthinkthisisaneither/orthing,thevegansvs.the
carnivores.Theidealdiet,ifyoulookattheentireworld,doestend
tobeplantbased,withfish,eggs,poultry,ormilk,asthebulkof
protein.Peoplecanteatallthatmuchprotein,soyouhavetogetthe
caloriessomewhere!Traditionally,meat,asinruminantmuscle
wasnteatenallthatoften,astheanimalswerevaluedmorefortheir
eggs,milkorwool.Youngmaleanimalscouldntgrowintoadult
males,ortheybecomeviolentandfighteachother.
AndIdontthinkthateatingruminantmeatisoffthehookin
termsofhealthdamage.IknowitsunpopularinthePaleocrowd,
butthestudiesaboutneu5gcaretroubling.ThestuffIS
inflammatory,anditisabsorbedinthebody.Also,unlesscombined
carefullywithotherfoods,liketeaormilk,ironisoverabsorbedin
mealsthatcontainhemeironandsaturatedfat.Itsmoreofa
problemsinceWW2,sincefortifiedfoodswereinventedand
hookwormwasmostlyeradicated.Ironis*known*tocauseheart
disease,andironlevelsintheUSarehigherthanthoseinChinaor
Indiaormostoftherestoftheworld.
Itsnotsurprisingthattherearenoexamplesofvegancultures,
sincehumansreallydoneedsomeofthenutrientsinanimalfoods.
ButIalsohavenotfoundanexampleofahealthyculturethateats
mainlyruminantmeat.ThepastoralpeopleliketheMaasaidrink
mainlymilk,andthoseranchersinoldTexasatemainlybeans.The
Inuiteatmainlyseafood,whichhasaverydifferentprofile.The
PlainsIndiansateahugevarietyoffood,butwedonthaveareally
clearrecordoftheusualdailymenu.ThePaleopeopleweretall,but
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wehavenoideawhattheirheartslookedlike,andmostlytheydied
younginanycase.SoIguesswewonthavethedatauntilalotof
Americanmainlymeateatersreacholderage?
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27032012
gager(09:12:40):
Pleaseexplainruminantmeat.
Reply
27032012
Imnotsurewhatthequestionis?Whatisaruminant,orwhydoI
notthinktheyarethebestanimalfoodforhumans?ByruminantsI
meangoats,sheep,andcows.Imnotagainsteatingmeatatall,butI
cantfindanexampleofahealthysocietythatusesruminantmeat
astheprimaryprotein.Thisbothersmealittleinthatthemore
paleoorientedfolksseemtobewarningpeopletonoteatmuchfish
orpoultry,becauseofPUFAyetfishandpoultryhavebeen
dietarymainstaysforsomeofthehealthiestpeople.
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gager(20:30:31):
Thankyou,myquestionisansweredbutthisbringsupanother
questionmaybesomeonecananswer.Omega3andomega6are
supposedlybalancedongrassfedbeefbecausecattlearenormally
grazinganimalsbuthowdoestheomegasbalanceonpoultryand
pork?Poultryareoneoftheonlyanimalsthatgrainsmaybe
acceptableasastapleandhogsarenotgrazinganimals,theyare
morerootinganimalsthatwilleatalmostanythingagoatwilleat.
Arefreerangechickensbetterthanthealternative?Whatabout
hogs?
Reply
27032012
ChrisSEA(20:47:57):
Chickenfedgrainsareusuallyfedsoy.Infactthisisoftena
marketingploywhenthepackagingsays,vegetarianfed.Thissoy
proteinbecomespartthemeatandeggsofthechickens.Sowereno
longereatinganeggsomuchaseatingasoytaintedproduct.
http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/10/11/soyproteinfoundinegg
yolkschickentissue/
Chickenswhenraisedinpasturedsituationseatbugs,worms,
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Chickenswhenraisedinpasturedsituationseatbugs,worms,
insectsandallkindsofotherthingsthatlayontheground,
includingnaturalseedsandgrains.Igetmyeggsfromasmallfarm
whosechickensarepastured(whichIknowforafactbecauseIgo
outthereandseethemformyselfrunningaroundthegrassand
landscape).Theeggsarevastlysuperiortoanything,including
organicomega3eggsIcangetatthegrocerystore.
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28032012
Wevestandardizedonfish,eggs,andchicken.Theeggsweget
fromourchickens.Theyusedtobefreerange,butthenthefree
rangeeaglesandfencejumpingbobcatsstartedeatingthem,sothey
arecoopedupnowandgoingtoabiggerenclosedspaceshortly.
However,therewerentenoughbugsetc.toreallykeepthemfed,so
mostoftheiractualcaloriescomefromleftoversfromourkitchen.
Actuallytheeggsareevenbettersincetheystartedgettingmore
leftovers(Igetotherfamilysleftoverstoo:somepeopleareusing
restaurantscraps).Chickensprefertobeundercover,esp.when
thereareflyingbirdsaround,andoursspentmostofthetime
huddledunderavehicle.Theyseemquitehappyintheirhouse.
Actuallytheycangetoutatthispoint,buttheydontunlessIkick
themouttoforage.
Improbablyoneof3peopleleftintheUSthatdontthinksoyis
alwaysevil,butoneofthebestwaysIthinktofeedchickensisto
buybulkseeds,thensproutthem.TheyLOVEsproutedseeds.Also
Iwanttoraiseblacksoldierfliesasasupplement,andIdoraise
worms.Leftoverdinnerthough,isstilltheirfavorite,esp.leftover
bones,enchiladas,etc.Theoriginalreasonwegotthehenswas
becausewedidnthaveagarbagedisposal,orgarbagepickup,and
ifyoucompostfooditattractsbears.Ifyouhavechickens,youdont
havefoodleftovers!Theycompostwhattheydonteat,buyburying
itinchickenlitter.Ifitattractsflies,theyeattheflies!Theyare
amazingomnivores,andcanhandleahugevarietyoffoods.
Weveraisedmeatchickensbefore,andplantoshortlywhenweget
betterhousingforthem.
PigsImnotsurehowIfeelabout.Ontheonehand,theirprotein
profileisalotlikeahumans,whichshouldmakeiteasyto
assimilate.OTOH,theirproteinprofileisalotlikeahumans,which
meanstheycarrydiseases.Thesmallpoxthatwipedouttheoriginal
NorthAmericanswascarriedbywildpigs.Theecolithatgotin
somesalsawascarriedbywildpigs.Thefluvarietiesthatpopup
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eachyearisincubatedbypigsonsmallfarms.MRSAismainly
frompigsonfactoryfarms.Anyway,Ilostmytasteforeatingpork
mostly.
Fishfarming,ifdoneRIGHT,canbeagreatthing.Ithinkyoullsee
itmoreinthenextdecadeortwo.Iveseemsomereallygood
systems,whichcanraisehugeamountsoffood.TheAmazonians
hadhugefishfarms1,000yearsago,andfedmillionsofpeople.The
Hawaiiansactuallyharvested3timesmorefishthantoday,yet
didntoverfishthewaters.
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/overfishing/
Goatsaregreatanimals,thoughIthinkthemilkandcheeseis
probablyhealthierthanthemeat.TheMaasaiwhoaresooftenused
asanexampleusemilkmainly.Therearealotofexamplesof
veryhealthypeoplelivingofffermentedmilk.Onesmallgoatcan
produceagallonofmilkaday,eatingscrub(ormowingyourlawn
foryou!).Andproducefoodforyourblacksoldierfliesor
earthwormsorgardentoo.
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23032012
anna(08:12:57):
Brian,Iamwithyou,evenwithoutwatchingthevideo.Personally,I
amreluctanttogoprimalandparticipateinanyoftheseactivities:
hunting,gathering,andmostcertainlyhumansacrificesand
similarlycharmingactivities.
WhycantIjusteatmymeatandsomegrassandavoidsugar,
vegetableoilsandexcessofcarbswithoutadmiringhuman
sacrifices,letaloneparticipatinginthem?
Reply
23032012
anna(17:16:08):
Iamunhappywiththiscomment.IthinkthatBrianisdishonestand
playingsomegameswhicharenotmygames.
Reply
23032012
Richard(09:50:20):
Anexcellentaccountonhowthelowcarbsaturatedfatapostles
onlineoperate,itsnothingbutareligioussectwiththeirsetof
believes.Theselowlevelpeopleperpetuatealieandmanipulation
Veganpropaganda
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Veganpropaganda
Reply
23032012
gager(10:27:13):
Richard,areyoutrulycluelesstothevalueofcholesterolinhuman
metabolism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol
Andaftermorethanfiftyyearsdontyouthinkthatahypothesis
shouldeitherbecomeatheoryorbedissolved?Imtalkingaboutthe
lipidhypothesis.Agoodscientistlooksfordatathatdoesnot
supportahypothesisandsofarnothingsupportsthehypothesis.
Reply
23032012
gager,seemslikeyouhavesomerespectforwikipediaasan
informationsourceonsuchmatters.Alsofoundthere:Asoftheend
ofthe1980s,theevidenceaccumulatedthroughstudiesresultedin
generalacceptanceofthelipidhypothesisandtherejectionofthe
cholesterolcontroversy,[12][13]andby2002,thelipidhypothesis
wasacceptedbythescientificcommunityasproven,[14]or,asone
articlestated,universallyrecognizedasalaw.[15]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis)
Reply
23032012
Thelipidhypothesisisuniversallyrecognizedasalaw.MyGod
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Thelipidhypothesisisuniversallyrecognizedasalaw.MyGod
whataloadofdung.
Reply
23032012
gager(18:22:08):
Thearticleisclearlybiasedandpoorlywritten.Whywouldanyone
usethisarticleasareference?
Reply
23032012
Charlie(18:30:59):
Forthoseinterestedherearesomealternativeshypothesisforheart
diseaseandcholesterolthatyoucanread;
http://www.thincs.org/links.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27taubes.html?
_r=3&scp=1&sq=Taubes&st=nyt&oref=slogin
http://www.fatheadmovie.com/index.php/2012/03/22/another
gooddietproduceslousyresults/commentpage1/
Reply
23032012
Sogager,youbelieveyourarticlefromWickipediahastruthvalue,
buttheoneIcitedyouconsiderclearlybiasedandpoorlywritten.
Itmightinterestyouthatanumberofthecontributorstoboth
articlesarethesame.Perhapsthisiswhythesestatementsare
includedinthearticleyouseemtoconsidercredible:Elevated
levelsofthelipoproteinfractions,LDL,IDLandVLDLareregarded
asatherogenic(pronetocauseatherosclerosis).[43]Levelsofthese
fractions,ratherthanthetotalcholesterollevel,correlatewiththe
extentandprogressofatherosclerosis.Ontheconverse,thetotal
cholesterolcanbewithinnormallimits,yetbemadeupprimarilyof
smallLDLandsmallHDLparticles,underwhichconditions
atheromagrowthrateswouldstillbehigh,andThevastmajority
ofdoctorsandmedicalscientistsconsiderthatthereisalink
betweencholesterolandatherosclerosis.
atherosclerosisasdiscussedabove;[60]asmallgroupofscientists,
unitedinTheInternationalNetworkofCholesterolSkeptics,
questionsthelink.[61]
Reply
23032012
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gager(19:30:50):
Youforget?Ireferencedthearticlebecauseitstatestheimportance
ofcholesterolinmetabolismandtheimportantfunctionsin
provides.ItisnotbecauseitwasatthewikisiteandIdo
discriminateonopinionandfacts.Wearenotstupid.
Thearticleyoureferencedisuselessexcepttoshowbias.
Reply
24032012
Gager,sinceWearenotstupidandareawareoftheimportant
functionsofcholesterol,whytheneedtociteabasicarticleonthis?
Perhapsyoudodiscriminatebetweenopinionandfactsbutdid
notseemtoapplydiscriminationwiththearticleyoucited,sinceit
agreeswiththearticleIcited,whichyouconsideruseless.
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24032012
ChrisSEA(18:43:02):
SmithLemliOpitzsyndromeprobablybestdemonstratesthe
criticalrolecholesterolplaysinhealthyhumanphysiology.Chris
Masterjohnpresentsthebesttakeontheroleofcholesterolinheart
disease.
http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012/02/6allthingslipids
cholesterol101chrismasterjohn
Ihappentothinkhescorrect,thatthereslikeabystanderrolehere,
butnotadirectyourcholesterolistoohighdirectlycausativerole.
Certainfractionsorcholesterolcarriermoleculescanbecome
oxidizedbecauseofinefficientmetabolism.Itsnotaboutreducing
cholesterolitsaboutimprovingyourmetabolicefficiency.Avoid
foodsthatleadtolipidperoxidationlikeprocessedvegetableoils
(PUFAs)forinstance.
Attheendoftheday,oldfoodscantbecausing20thcentury
diseaseepidemics.ThisispreciselywhatWestonAPricenoted
whenhestudiedgroupsofpeoplearoundtheworld.
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23032012
Richard(11:43:31):
Iamonestepfurther,besidesaknowledgingthehugeimportantof
cholesterolinhumanbodyperse,Iveactuallyaskedhowmuchof
thisgoodstuffisenough.Youshouldtoo.Itsreallyeasythesedays,
juststartbywatchingprimitivenutritionsserieThefutilityof
cholesteroldenialism.3videosandyougettheanswer.
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Primitivenutritionteachesyouwhyeverythingyouhadeverknown
aboutcholesterolandheartdiseaseisutterlywrong.Welcometothe
year2012
Reply
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gager(11:48:29):
Youarebeingduped.Factsnotclaimsshouldbeyourguide.
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(12:01:05):
Iamonestepfurther
No,actuallyyouare50yearsbehind,liketheanonymousclown
makingthesevideos,whohasprobablyusedatimemachineto
collectthematerialinthe70s.Heseemstohavemissedmostofthe
recent(last15years)researchinbloodlipidsandassociatedCHD
risks.
BTWImstillwaitingforthescientificproofyoupromised,showing
thatcholesterolcausesheartdisease.Postless.Researchmore.
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Charlie(15:45:23):
Richardiswrongaboutcancerandlowcholesterol;
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LowLDLCholesterolIsRelatedtoCancerRisk
ScienceDaily(Mar.26,2012)LowLDLcholesterolinpatients
withnohistoryoftakingcholesterolloweringdrugspredatescancer
riskbydecades,suggestingtheremaybesomeunderlying
mechanismaffectingbothcancerandlowLDLcholesterolthat
requiresfurtherexamination,accordingtoresearchpresented
March25attheAmericanCollegeofCardiologys61stAnnual
ScientificSession.
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27032012
suggestingtheremaybesomeunderlyingmechanismaffecting
bothcancerandlowLDLcholesterol
Iftherelationshiphadcomeouttheotherway,therewouldbebig
headlinessayingthathighLDLcausescancer.Justsaying
Beth
Reply
27032012
Charlie(19:02:12):
Theyarecoveringforstatinsbutuntilthatmysteriousunderlying
mechanismaffectingcholesterolandcancerisdiscoveredwhat
remainsisastrongassociationbetweenlowcholesterolandcancer.
ContrarytoRichardclaimslowcholesterolprecedecancerbymany
decades.
Reply
27032012
Imnotsurewhatyoumeanbycoveringforstatins.Thestudy
lookedatpeoplethatwerenotonstatinstoremovethepossibility
thatstatinscausedtheresult.
Mypointwasthattheprevailingbeliefthatlowcholesterolisgood,
soitmustbesomecommoncause,notthelowcholesterolitself,that
isthecauseofthiseffectinthemindsoftheresearchers.IRL,its
anepidemiologicalstudy,sogoodforraisingthepossibilitythat
thereissomethingtofind,butthatsall.
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27032012
Charlie(21:55:59):
Welltheyarelookingoutsidestatinsbecauselowcholesterolhas
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Welltheyarelookingoutsidestatinsbecauselowcholesterolhas
beenassociatedwithincreasedcancerriskandhighermortalityin
olderpopulationandstatinslowercholesterol.Thatlowcholesterol
isgoodhasbeenquestionbyalotofskepticdoctorswithan
alternativehypothesisontherolethatcholesterolplayonhealth.
Untilsomemechanismisdiscoveredthatrevealdirectcausemany
cholesterolskepticscanpointoutthatititsnotnecessarilyan
indicationofgoodhealth.Whatissureisthatisnotlikemany
proponentofverylowcholesterollikeRichardsaidthatcancerwas
causingthelowcholesterol.
Reply
27032012
Whatissureisthatisnotcancerwascausingthelow
cholesterol.
Inotherwords,theyhaveprovidedevidencethateitherthereisa
commoncauseforbothlowcholesterolorthatlowcholesterolitself
causescancer.Right,anditisgoodtohavethisdatapoint.
Anotherinterestingpointisthatobesityisassociatedwithincreased
cancerand(Ithink)alsoassociatedwithhighcholesterol.Given
that,Iwouldbeinterestedinlookingattheassociationbetweenthe
subtypesofcholesterolandcancer.Forexample,dopeoplethatget
cancer(obeseornot)tendtohavelowlevelsofthelarge/fluffyLDL?
Beth
Reply
27032012
Therecouldbeatleastoneunderlyingproblem:peoplewhohave
undetectedceliacoftenhavelowcholesterol,andalsoincreasedrisk
ofcancer.Celiacswhoeatwheatarealsooftenthinnomatterhow
muchtheyeat,soonhealthprofilesandtomostpeoplewatching
themtheyseembothhealthyandoftenbeautiful.
Reply
29032012
ItseemsthatRichardhastakenabreakfromposting,orfallen
victimtotheobviousdangersoflowLDL,andthusitseemsleftto
metopointouttheobviousconcerningtherelationshipbetween
cancerandcholesterol.
IntheScienceDailyMarch26,2012articlethatcompareda
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IntheScienceDailyMarch26,2012articlethatcompareda
relativelysmallgroupofcancerpatientswithcontrols(201and402
cases,respectively),oneoftheauthorscautionsthecurrentstudy
doesnotsuggestthathavinglowLDLCsomehowleadstothe
developmentofcancer,andthattherelationshipbetweenthetwo
existsformanyyearspriortocancerdiagnosis.Thisauthor,is
obviouslypointingtoacorrelationalrelationshipandtoatime
frameleadinguptodiagnosis.Inoncologicalresearch,itispretty
wellacceptedthatcancersoftentakedecadestodevelopandthus,
theycouldhaveanLDLloweringeffectovertime.Itisalso
importanttorecognizethatthiswassimplyapaperpresentedata
conferenceanduntilithaspassedthelitmustestofacceptanceinto
apeerreviewjournal,thequalityoftheresearchremains
undetermined.
Consideringastudywithsomewhatmorecasesthanthecited2012
studyintheScienceDaily,a2009paperinthepeerreviewed
journal,CancerEpidemiology,BiomarkersandPrevention,of29,000
Finnishmenoveran18yearperiod,showedthatlowcholesterol
levelsdidnotincreasetheriskofcancerinaclinicallymeaningful
way.Althoughlessthan200milligramsperdeciliterwasassociated
withan18percenthigheroverallriskofcancer,thisincreasedrisk
appliedonlytocasesdiagnosedintheearlyyearsofthestudy.In
otherwordsthisfindingsupportstheideathatlowercholesterol
levelsaretheresultofcancerswhichhavenotyetbeendiagnosed.
Inthesameissueofthisjournal,anotherpaperreportingonmore
than5,500menenrolledintheProstateCancerPreventionTrial,
yieldedresultsshowingthatthosewithcholesterollevelslowerthan
200hada59percentlowerriskofdevelopingthemostdangerous
formofthatcancer.Inamorerecentresearchpaperinanotherpeer
reviewedjournal(UrologicClinicsofNorthAmerica,Aug,2011),
theresultsstronglypointtohypercholesterimiaasariskfactorfor
theprogressionofprostatecancer.
Lookingatthebiggerpicture,therearemanystudiesthatshowa
relationshipbetweensaturatedfatandcanceracrosscountries.
Thosecountrieshavingthehighestsaturatedfatintakealsohavethe
highestcancerrates.Therearealsomanystudieslinkingtheintake
ofanimalfoodsandcancers.And,asinallfieldsofscientific
inquiry,therewillberesearchstudyoutlierspresentingapictureat
oddswiththegenerallyacceptedconclusionsfromthebulkof
research.Beinganoutlierdoesnotnecessarilymeanthatthe
conclusionsarewrong,nordoesitmeanthattheyareright.To
legitimatelygainacceptanceinthescientificcommunity,andthus
overthrowagenerallyacceptedtheory,thecompetingviewpoint
necessarilyrequiresaconsiderableamountofsupportivewell
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conductedresearch.Withregardtoaviablealternativetothelipid
hypothesis,suchknowledgeconditionsdonotexistatthepresent
time.
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ChrisSEA(07:25:15):
Thosecountrieshavingthehighestsaturatedfatintakealsohave
thehighestcancerrates.Therearealsomanystudieslinkingthe
intakeofanimalfoodsandcancers
Sorry,thatsjustpure,complete,unadulteratednonsense.Ivesaidit
manytimesandIllsayitagain.Oldfoodsdontcausenew,modern
diseaseepidemics.ThisisexactlywhyWestonAPricesNutrition
andPhysicalDegenerationhasbeensovaluable.Preciselybecause
hewasataperiodofthe20thCenturywhenhewasnoting
increasingratesofnotonlypoorerdentalhealth,buta
commensuratedeclineinoverallhealthandincreasesin
degenerativediseases.PeoplewerentsuddenlyeatingMOREofold
worldfoods,likeanimalproducts,theyweremovingawayfrom
themandeatingmorerefined,nutrientpoorfoods(refinedwheat,
sugar,etc.).Thefactthatweeatdramaticallymoresugarnowthen
100and200yearsagoisahugecluetome.Inarecentlecture
StephenGuyanet,Ph.D.(http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com)
notethatwenoweatin7hourstheamountofsugarinone12ozcan
ofsodathatapersonin1822atein5days.
ThethousandsuponthousandsofhealthyteethPriceexamined,the
wellformeddentalarchesandrobustskeletalstructuresinpeople
eatingoldfoodsdidntlie.
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Pricedidnoteadropinthequalityofanimalproductssuchasdairy
comingfromcattleraisedinlargepopulationgroupsinEurope,
comparedtoisolatedareathathadntadoptedmodernfoodsand
animalhusbandrypractices.Becausehehadfoodsanalyzedfortheir
nutrientcontentsanddensities,heknewsomethingwasmovingin
thewrongdirectionincivilizedhumans.Whateffecthasmodern
animalhusbandrypracticeshadonhumanhealth?Chickenarenow
vegetarianfed;fedmassivequantitiesofsoyandcorn,something
thatpermeatestheirmeatandeggsandthenpoisonsus.
Hedidnotnotepeopleeatinglotsofsaturatedfats,cholesteroland
animalfoodshavingcancersandheartdiseaseandrampanttooth
decay.Hefoundgroupaftergroupaftergroupwithexactlythe
oppositesituationgoingon,robusthealthypeople.Whenhenoted
peopleabandoningtheirtraditionalfoodsformodernfares,thats
whentheproblemsbegan.
Inthenameofantisaturatedfat,anticholesterol,antianimal
mania,overthecourseofthe20thcenturycorporationsand
governmentpolicieshavepushedpeopleintoeatingCOMPLETE
garbage;thingslikehydrogenatedmargerinesandvegetableoils
andlowfat,highlyprocessed,lownutrientdensejunkfoodswhile
beingtoldthesewerehealthy.PleasegowatchFlorenceHenderson
bestowthevirtuesofallnatural,cholesterolfreehighPUFAcorn
oilsforfryingfoods.Whilesaturatedfatfromsourceslikebutter
andlard/tallowdecreasedsteadilyoverthe20thcenturythese
garbagehealthyoilsandmargerinesincreaseddramatically.
Soright,itstheoldfoodscausingnewdiseaseepidemics.
Reply
30032012
Sorry,thatsjustpure,complete,unadulteratednonsense.No
needtocandycoatithere,sowhydontyoutellushowyoureally
feel?
First,letmesaythatnoargumenthereregardingadulterated
processedfoodsNutrition101knowledge.HoweverChrisSEA,the
knowledgebaseyouadducetomakeyourpointismorethanabit
antiquated,bothfromamethodologicalandadatabaseperspective.
WestonPrice,althoughanimportantandadmirablepioneerinthe
investigationofcrossculturalnutritionalpatterns,wasbytodays
standards,employingrelativelynaiveresearchmethods.
Furthermore,hisdatasampleswerenotrepresentativeofcurrent
conditions.Atthetimehewaswriting,thestateofmedicine,
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nutrition,publicsanitationandhealthrecordkeepingaccuracywere
veryundevelopedinindustrializedcountriescomparedtothe
currentstateofaffairs.Infectiousdiseaseswerestillkillingasizable
portionofthesepopulationsbeforethesocalleddiseasesof
civilizationsuchascancerandarteriosclerosiscouldtakeroot,and
thecauseofdeathswereoftennotclassifiedcorrectly.Furthermore,
inhisunderstandingofthehealthstatusoftraditionalpeoples,
WestonPricewasapparentlyunawareoftheirhighinfantmortality
rates,shortlifeexpectancy,endemicdiseases,andfrequentlethal
infections.
ItmustberememberedthatalthoughWestonPricewasakeen
observer,hewasadentist.Dentiststhenandnow,havetypically
notbeentrainedtodoresearchevenintheirownfieldandcertainly
nottrainedtodocrossculturalnutritionalresearch.SoalthoughI
havegreatadmirationofWestonPriceasakeenobserverand
humanitarian,Iviewhisworkasinspirational,butinthecontextof
ourcurrentknowledgebase,minimallyinformative.Toholdupan
attemptatnutritionalsciencefromthe1930sasanykindof
standardoftruthistantamounttosayingthattheWrightBrothers
gotitrightandthatcurrentspaceshuttletechnologyisallwrong,
thelatterbeingtheresultofagovernmentconspiracytryingtokeep
usfromunderstandingtherealnatureofairtravel.
ButsinceyouputsomuchstockinWestonPrice,itseemsworth
askingwhatdiethepersonallyviewedasbest.In1934,WestonPrice
composedatouchinglettertohisniecesandnephews,instructing
theminwhatheconsideredthebestdiet:Thebasicfoodsshouldbe
theentiregrainssuchaswholewheat,ryeoroats,wholewheatand
ryebreads,wheatandoatcereals,oatcake,dairyproducts,
includingmilkandcheese,whichshouldbeusedliberally,and
marinefoods.ThisseemshighlyinconsistentwiththecurrentDiet
DictocratsattheWestonPriceFoundation,andiscertainlyatodds
withPaleo/Primalnotions.PerhapsifSallyFallonandMaryEnig
hadinfactfollowedPricesadvicetheywouldatleasthavesome
visiblemarkersofhealthyorganisms.AndperhapsStephenByrnes,
aformermemberoftheWestonPriceFoundationsBoardof
Directors,whowassaidinanAbouttheAuthorsectionofan
articlehighlycriticalofvegetarianism(TheMythsof
Vegetarianism),toenjoyrobusthealthonadietthatincludes
butter,cream,eggs,meat,wholemilk,dairyproductsandoffal,
wouldhavedonebetterifhehadtakenPricesadviceseriously.
StephenByrnessufferedafatalstrokeinJune,2004priortoreaching
his40thbirthday.
Reply
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30032012
Oddlyenough,thecofounderofBastyrUniversity(intoveganism
andholisticmedicine)alsodiedatayoungageofaheartattack,
alongwithhisson.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003543647_mitchellobit27m.html
IthinkPricewascorrecttolookwithbroadstrokeshowaculture
works,esp.withbonestructure.Youcanseebonestructurereally
easily,andourpsychesrecognizeahealthybonestructurefroma
famishedone,evenifwedontreallyunderstandwhythishappens.
Thin,narrowfacesthatneedbraces,andhavelotsofcavities
thereISanissue,anditstartsatanearlyage.
Mydaughterhadreallyrottenteethuntilshewas6orso,whenI
changedmydiet,andhersbydefault.Sheis17now,andtheFIRST
personinourextendedfamilythatdidntneedbraces,orhavemany
cavities,orhavejointproblems.Shemightnotappreciateherbroad
face,broadhips,narrowwaist,andgreatskinandhair,butsheesh,
thedietweuse,works,andsheisgorgeous.Herfriendsgrewup
withhorribleteeth,badhair,badjoints,depression,neurosis,etc.
GrantedoursolutionwasnotPricesIlookedathisdataandsaid
mostofthehealthypeopledonteatwheat!anditturnsoutIam
celiac.Alsoitturnsoutmosthealthypeoplehaveseafood.Iagree
hisstudieswerenaive,asweremostbackthen,andthoseof
NewtonandDaVinci,FWIW.Butvaluable.
Itsamistaketolookatonlyoneresearcherorsetofdata.Linus
Paulinghadalotofgoodstufftosay.SodidAtkins,forthatmatter.
Andthefoodpyramid.Theyareallright,andallwrongbutall
thedatasourcestogether,youcanfindwhatreallyworks.
Reply
30032012
RegardingWilliamMitchellJr.,oneofthefoundersofBastyr
College,Idontbelievethathewasaveganorevenavegetarian,
andthereareindicationsinhislegalhistorythathehadalcohol
abuseproblems.HavingknownquiteafewNaturopathic
physicians,Inoticedthattheytendnottobevegetarian.Having
knownaconsiderablenumberofvegans,manyofthemhavevery
poordietsconsistingoffragmentedandnutritionallylowdensity
foods.ThefounderoftheAmericanVeganSociety,JayDinshah,
whomImetintheearly60s,diedin2000attheageof66,
apparentlyofachronicheartconditionunrelatedtodiet.Myrecall
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ofJayisthathisprimaryconcernregardingdietwasethicalandhe
appearedtohavelittleinterestorknowledgeaboutappropriate
exerciseneeds.Atthattimehewasayoungmanandwasquitethin
andfraillooking.Picturesofhimpriortohisdeathindicatethathe
hadbecomeoverweightandmostlikelysufferedfromthetypical
middleagesarcopenia.Hecertainlydidntlookanyhealthierthan
thefoundersoftheWestonPriceFoundationinhislastyears.On
theotherhand,hedidntlookanyworse.
Reply
30032012
ChrisSEA(17:00:19):
Imwheat/glutenfreealso.Pricealsowasntrecommendingthe
frankenwheatwehavenowdays.ItsfascinatingtohearDr.
WilliamDavis(WheatBelly)talkaboutthewaywheathasbeen
drasticallyalteredoverthecourseofthe20thcenturyintothebreed
wehavenow.SosayingthatPricerecommendedwheatisnotthe
sameassayingherecommendedwhatisgrowntoday,especiallyif
itsnotsoakedandsprouted.
Reply
30032012
Yesindeed,currentagriculturalmethodsaredisastrous,
environmentallyandnutritionally.However,thePaleo/Primal
adherentsarenotjustcritiquingpoorlygrowngrains,butratherall
grains.ThisiscontrarytoPricesnutritionalviews.
Reply
30032012
gager(17:16:31):
Grainsmakeperfectfeedforbirds,notsoforhumans.
30032012
gager(17:13:40):
Pricewasagainstwheataswellassugarandvegetableoil.Iwould
liketoseeareferencewherePricerecommendswheat.
Reply
30032012
Asquotedinmyearlierposting,ina1934lettertohisniecesand
nephews,Priceinstructedtheminwhatheconsideredthebestdiet:
Thebasicfoodsshouldbetheentiregrainssuchaswholewheat,
ryeoroats,wholewheatandryebreads,wheatandoatcereals,oat
cake,dairyproducts,includingmilkandcheese,whichshouldbe
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usedliberally,andmarinefoods.Thisisfoundonpage492ofhis
book,NutritionandPhysicalDegeneration.Asyounotice,aswell
asrecommendinggrains,thereisnomentionofmeatproducts.
30032012
gager(21:05:30):
Couldyougiveachapterheading.Idonthavenumberedpagesin
mycopy.
30032012
xandermaus(12:17:18):
http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2006/03/28/veganslies
andthedeathofdrstephenbyrnes/
Reply
30032012
SorrydonthaveacopyinfrontofmewasanoteImadequitea
whileagoinmywanderings.
Reply
30032012
anna(23:40:18):
SallyFallonquotesitsomewhereinherTraditions.
Reply
31032012
FromtheWPF:ThedietPriceusedwithhispatientsincluded
wholemilk,wholewheat,stewsmadefrombonebroths,meatsand
organmeats,fruitsandvegetables.Itwasnotdevoidofplantfoods
orverylowincarbohydrates.TheWestonAPriceFoundationand
SallyFallonsbookNourishingTraditionsdonotrecommend
specificcarbohydrateandfatguidelines.NourishingTraditions
recommendslimitingproteinintaketo1520%ofcaloriesand
experimentingtofindtherightbalanceofcarbohydratesandfats
thatwillbedeterminedbyancestry,circumstanceandother
factors.(http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/therightprice).You
willalsonoticethatSallyFallonscookbookhasmanygrainrecipes,
includingagoodnumberofwheatones.
TheabovementionedquotebyPrice:Thebasicfoodsshouldbethe
entiregrainssuchaswholewheat,ryeoroats,wholewheatandrye
breads,wheatandoatcereals,oatcake,dairyproducts,including
milkandcheese,whichshouldbeusedliberally,andmarinefoods
isfromthe8thEditionofPricesbook.
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ChrisSEA(03:39:29):
Butthatadviceisnotlongerreallyrelevantconsideringthewheat
headvocatesinthatsinglequoteisnolongertheprimaryformof
wheatgrown.Itsnotevengotthesamenumberofchromosomesas
whatmakesupthevastamountofwheatgrownandconsumed
today(thefrankensteinhighyieldalteredgliadin/glutensemidwarf
variant).Nottomentionmostpeopledontevenknowwhat
sproutingandsoakingare,botholdworldprocessesthatwere
commonwithgrains,somethingSallyfrequentlyrecommendsto
reducethephyticacidcontent.
Hisstatementalsodoesntprecludemeatgivenhowmuchhenoted
healthypeopleeatingit.Gettingstuckononequoteasifitthrows
outalltherestofhisworkiskindofsilly.Herearejustafew
mentionsofmeat:
ThesemembersoftheMasaitribeillustratethesplendidnutrition
providedbytheirdietofcattleproductsnamely:meat,milkand
blood
RegardingthepeopleofLoetschentalValley,Thegeneralcustomis
tohaveasheepdressedanddistributedtoagroupoffamilies,thus
providingeachfamilywitharationofmeatforonedayaweek,
usuallySunday.Thebonesandscrapsareutilizedformakingsoups
tobeservedduringtheweek.
WherevertheIndianswerelivingontheirnativefoods,chiefly
mooseandcariboumeat,theirphysicaldevelopmentincluding
facialanddentalarchformwassuperbwithnearlycomplete
immunitytodentalcaries.
Hetookme,forexample,toseveraltypicallymodernizedIndian
homesinthecity.Inone,thegrandmother,whohadcomefromthe
northernshoreofCookInlettovisitherdaughter,wassixtythree
yearsofage,andwasentirelyfreefromtoothdecayandhadlost
onlyoneofherteeth.Herson,whohadaccompaniedher,was
twentyfouryearsofage.Hehadonlyonetooththathadeverbeen
attackedbytoothdecay.Theirdiethadbeenprincipallymooseand
deermeat,freshanddriedfish,afewvegetablesandattimesome
cranberries.Recentlythesonhadbeenobtainingsomemodern
foods.Herdaughter,twentynineyearsofage,hadmarriedawhite
manandhadhadeightchildren.Sheandtheywerelivingon
modernfoodsentirely.Twentyoneofherthirtytwoteethhadbeen
wreckedbydentalcaries.Theirdietconsistedlargelyofwhite
bread,syrupandpotatoes.
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MuhimaTribeorAnchola,UgandaThey,liketheMasai,are
primarilyacattleraisingpeopleandliveonmilk,bloodandmeat
Theyconstituteoneoftheveryprimitiveandundisturbedgroups
Inastudyof1,040teethofthirtysevenindividuals,notasingle
toothwasfoundwithdentalcaries.
Amarkedvariationoftheincidenceofirregularitieswasfoundin
thedifferenttribes.Thisvariationcouldbedirectlyassociatedwith
thenutritionratherthanwiththetribalpattern.Thelowest
percentageofirregularityoccurredinthetribeslivingverylargely
ondairyproductsandmarinelife.Forexample,amongtheMasai
livingonmilk,bloodandmeat,only3.4percenthadirregularities.
AmongtheKikuyuandWakamba,18.2and18.9percent
respectivelyhadirregularities.Thesepeap!ewerelargely
agriculturistslivingprimarilyonvegetablefoods.
AngloEgyptianSudanhasanareaapproximatelyonethirdthatof
theUnitedStates.Itistraversedthroughoutitslengthfromsouthto
northbytheNile.Thereareseveraltribeslivingalongthisgreat
waterway,whichareofspecialinterestnowowingtotheirclose
proximitytoEthiopia..Thesetribes,therefore,usemilk,bloodand
meatfromcattleandlargequantitiesofanimallifefromtheNile
River..Iwasparticularlyinterestedintheirfoodhabitsboth
becauseoftheirhighimmunitytodentalcarieswhichapproximated
onehundredpercent,andbecauseoftheirphysical
development.
Infacthenotesthatthosegroupseatingthemostgrainshadpoorer
dentalhealth.AsanexampleInchapter9henotes:
KasenyiPort,LakeAlbert,BelgianCongo.Thesenativeswere
membersofseveraltribessurroundingthisdistrictwhowereforthe
mostparttemporaryresidentsaslaborers.Thepeoplehadbeen
livinglargelyonacerealdietandnowduringtheirtemporary
residenceattheporthadhadfish.
Anexaminationof1,940teethofsixtythreeindividualsrevealed120
teethwithdentalcaries,or6.1percentoftheteeth.Fiftyand
eighttenthspercentoftheindividualshaddentalcaries.
31032012
Butthatadviceisnotlongerreallyrelevantconsideringthewheat
headvocatesinthatsinglequoteisnolongertheprimaryformof
wheatgrown.Itsnotevengotthesamenumberofchromosomesas
whatmakesupthevastamountofwheatgrownandconsumed
today(thefrankensteinhighyieldalteredgliadin/glutensemidwarf
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variant).YouseemtobemissingthepointChrisSEA.Thekindof
wheatthatbothPriceandmyselfisspeakingofhasbeengrown
properly.Industriallygrownmodernwheatisnotfitforhuman
consumption,butneitherisindustriallyraisedmeatproducts.No
individualswithrelevantknowledgeaboutnutrition,whether
veganoromnivore,wouldwillinglyconsumesuchtoxicproducts.
Soforthereasonsyouseemtobedismissingmostwheatgrown
today,thesesamereasonscanbebroughtforthtodismissmost
animalsraisedforfoodtoday.Weshouldbecomparingappleswith
apples,dontyouthink?
AsfaryourstatementaboutGettingstuckononequoteasifit
throwsoutalltherestofhisworkiskindofsilly,makingsome
distinctionsregardingthetargetaudiencewouldbeusefulfor
reflection.Allthequotesyoulistedaboutmeateatingarefromhis
bookandreflectthefindings(notrecommendations)tobepresented
tothepublic.Thequoteabouteatinggrainswithnomentionofthe
needformeat,waswrittentohisrelatives.Doyouimaginehe
wouldbemoreconcernedaboutgivingthebestnutritionaladvice
orimplicitsuggestionstothepublic,ortorelativesforwhomhe
appearedtohavegenuineaffection?
31032012
gager(10:06:14):
.Industriallygrownmodernwheatisnotfitforhuman
consumption,butneitherisindustriallyraisedmeatproducts.
Wheat,(grassseed)isenergydensebutnutrientpoor.Forthat
reasonIviewwheattobeconsumedwhenallotherfoodisnot
available.Sincemodernwheatisnotforyou,somehowyouequate
thatwithmodernmeat,withoutreason.Aswithmostofyour
argumentsitdoesnotfollow.Grazingbeeffinishedwithgrain
allowsextrafatinthebeef.Mykindofmeat.Also,lamb,poultry,
andporkisallavailablefromthelocalfarmersmarketatreasonable
prices.Itworkswell.
31032012
Ithinkmyargumentsdofollow,gager,butitseemsthatyouarenot
followingthem.However,perhapsIwasbeingunclear,soallowme
totryagain.Youwrote,modernwheatisnotforyou,somehow
youequatethatwithmodernmeat,withoutreason.WhatIsaid
wasIndustriallygrownmodernwheatisnotfitforhuman
consumption,butneitherisindustriallyraisedmeatproductsthe
reasonisthatbothareinferiorproductsgetit?Onapersonal
level,whenIeatmeat,itisgrassfedorganicandwhenIeatgrains,
itisorganic.Sothemainissueformeishowthefoodisproduced.
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However,Itendtoseegrainsasmoreofablandfillerandnotreally
necessaryformynutritionalneeds,andthusrarelyconsumethem.I
also,fromexperience,dontbuythatmeatisnecessaryformy
nutritionalneed,andwhenIconsumeitoccasionally,itisprimarily
forhedonicreasons.
31032012
Thingis,whilePricewasWAYaheadofhistimeinwhathedid,he
didntreallygetacomprehensiveviewofwhatwasgoingon.The
MaasaidoNOTliveprimarilyonmeatandblood.Theyliveon
milk,andtheirironlevelsaresolowthatwesternershavewantedto
givethemironpills.Butwhentheygetmoreiron,theygetmalaria
andlosethatawesomegoodhealth.AsfortheSwisssometime
beforePricegotthere,theyhada2030%rateofgoiterintheyoung
recruits,whichtheSwisscuredbysendingintruckloadsofiodized
salt.
SincePriceconcentratedmainlyonskeletaldeformities,hepicked
upondietaryissuesthataffectedtheskeleton,whicharelikelyVit
DandVitKissues.Thatisverydifferentfromtheissuesthatmight,
say,causecancerorCVD.Fromlookingattheskeletalevidence,it
seemsthatwheateatingculturesareextremelypronetotheskinny
facesandweakteethissues,whichIthinkarebecausewheat
interferessomehowwithVitDand/orK.Youcanttellfrom
skeletonsthough,orfromlookingatpeople,whetherornottheir
heartsarehealthy.
Asforwheatandwholegrainshecorrectlyidentifiedthatwhole
wheatwasawholelotbetterthanwhiteflour.Idontthinkanyone
inhistimecoulddealwiththeideathatwheat*byitself*mightbe
bad.Butnoneofhishealthypeopleactuallyhadawheatbased
diet.TheSwissweretheclosest,withadairy/ryediet,butryeis
reallylowingluten.WheatwasaprobleminPricesday,anditwas
aproblemfortheEgyptiansandRomanstoo,albeitoursislikely
evenworse.
Pricealsothoughtthatitwasthelackofnutrientsthatmade
whiteflourandsugarbad.Yet,theAsiansappeartodorather
wellonwhiterice.Billionsofthem.Andothercountriesdookon
cassava,whichissimilarlyprocessedtoremoveprettymuch
everythingexceptthestarch.
Priceidentifiedmarinefoodsasreallygoodforpeople.Thatwasa
kindofradicalideaatthetime.Fishwaspoorpeoplefood,and
youmightaswellhavebeenrecommendingchitterlingsorhaggis.I
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dontthinkhewouldhaverecommendedtheLondonseafood
either,whichwasfromratherpollutedsources.
IguesswhatImsayingisthatsometimesyouhavetostandonthe
shouldersofgiantstoreachthestars.Pricewasonesuchgiant.But
hesnotagod,andnottobeworshipped.Hewouldhavelaughedat
suchanidea,Ithink.
31032012
ChrisSEA(07:29:56):
Ok,butwhataffectstheteethaffecttheheart.VitaminDand
especiallyK(2)isincrediblyimportantforhearthealth.ThatPrice
foundarelationshipbetweendentalhealthandoverallhealth
includeshearthealth,especiallywhatwerelearningabouttherole
thatK2(butnotK1)hasinpreventingheartproblems.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/lateststudyon
vitaminkandcoronary.html
ThisisborneoutintheMasai,especiallyduringtheirMuranphase,
whenmilkwasindeedtheirmainstayfoodforaperiodof15to20
years.StephenGuyenetreallyhassomefascinatingresearchonthis.
IthinkultimatelytheissuehereisnotwhetherPricerecommended
meatornottohisrelatives,itsthathefoundcholesterolrichfoods
(likefullfatdairy)hadspecialprotectiveeffectsonhealth.Weknow
alotofthatnowhastodowiththefatsolublevitaminsA,D,and
K2.
ThisiswhyIdrinkrawgrassfeddairyalmostdaily,inadditionto
pasturedeggs.
31032012
Ithinktheremightbesomethingtothat,thoughImnotsurethat
thekeyischolesterol.Dairyandeggbaseddietsseemtowork
ratherwell,evenforrats.Bothfoodshavebeendesignedby
naturetofeedayounganimal.Thereisalotthatgoesintothat,not
justoneingredient!
Oddlythough,bothdairyandeggsarehighlyallergenic,andIcant
processdairymyself.Thoughmykidscan,whowereraisedona
betterdiet.
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31032012
ChrisSEA(18:19:16):
Cholesterol(andsaturatedfat)isnttheissue,thatwasexactlymy
point.SorryifIwasntclear.DespiteRichardandBriansrepeated
assertionstothecontrary.Pricepostulatedtheexistenceofan
activatorsubstancewhichhadntbeenidentifiedatthetime,and
itsnowbelievetobeK2.AndspecificallyK2,nottheK1forwhich
isprimarilyfromplantsources.Soessentiallygovernmentfood
policy,basedonthefoodpyramidandantisaturatedfatabsurdity,
pushedpeopleawayfromeatingK2foods,thenlowandbeholdwe
endupwithepidemicsofheartdiseaseoverthecourseofthe20th
century,allthewhileFlorenceHendersonsellingusallnatural,
healthycholesterolfreevegetableoils.Couplethatwithapushto
eathealthywholegrainsandsubstitutewhatPricewasseeing
healthypeoplewithwithageneticallymodifiedformofwheatthat
isunfitforconsumptionessentially,andyougetadisaster.
Ithinkyourchildrenareveryluckytohaveamotherwhofigured
someofthisoutintimetofeedthemcorrectly.Ivespentaverylong
timerepairingthedamagemyselfhavingfollowedthegovernments
foodpyramid(lowfat,highgrain)beforeIfinallywokeup.My
digestivesystemwassoscrewedupIwasallergictoeverything,
eggs,dairy,younameit,Iwasallergictoit.LuckilyIfoundsome
alternativehealingapproachesthathaveworkedformeandIcan
eatthosethingsagain.Butwheatisonemybodyjustletsmeknow
innouncertaintermsisanunfitfoodformesoIstayclear.
31032012
gager(10:51:48):
.Toholdupanattemptatnutritionalsciencefromthe1930sas
anykindofstandardoftruthistantamounttosayingthatthe
WrightBrothersgotitrightandthatcurrentspaceshuttle
technologyisallwrong,thelatterbeingtheresultofagovernment
conspiracytryingtokeepusfromunderstandingtherealnatureof
airtravel.
Onceagainyoutrytoequatethingsthatarenotrelated.
TheWrightbrotherstriedtoprovethatpoweredheavierthanair
flightwaspossibleandtheysucceeded.Itstillholdstruetoday.
Pricewaslookingforarelationshipofdiettohealthandhe
succeeded.
Reply
31032012
Sorry,youaremissingthepointhere.Iamnotequatingaviation
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Sorry,youaremissingthepointhere.Iamnotequatingaviation
eventstonutritionalobservationsIamdrawingananalogy.Iam
pointingoutthattherehasbeenhistoricalprogressinbothfields
andtoaccordaprivilegedstatustoworkintheinfancyofafieldis
sentimental,naiveandcertainlynotscience.
Andyes,Pricewaslookingforarelationshipofdiettohealthand
hesucceededandsohavemostwhohavethoughtaboutit,from
mygrandmothertoLinaesPauling.Arelationshipdoesnot
necessarilyhavetruthvalue.
Reply
31032012
gager(22:07:57):
Iamdrawingananalogy.
Ohplease,Irecognizetheattemptatananalogybutitsnot
working.
Iampointingoutthattherehasbeenhistoricalprogressinboth
fieldsandtoaccordaprivilegedstatustoworkintheinfancyofa
fieldissentimental,naiveandcertainlynotscience.
Youmustbeignorantinscienceandhowscienceprogresses.There
isnothingnaiveaboutfirstdiscovery.Infactfirstdiscoveryisthe
pathtoprogress.Scienceismethod.Anditisallsciencefrom
Aristotleonward.
Reply
1042012
Againyouaremisunderstandingmypoint.Yes,firstdiscoveryis
oftennaive.Letmebemoreconcrete,byremindingyouofwhat
earlypeoplessuchastheGreeksconstruedheavenlybodiestobe,
namelygodsandgoddesses.Astheydiscoveredanewone,thiswas
afirstdiscovery.Wenowknowthatsuchanunderstandingof
heavenlybodiesisnaive.Andno,itisnotallsciencefromAristotle
onwardmostthoughteffortswerehistoricallynotdrivenby
rationalmethods,andevenlessweredrivenbythescientific
method.
23032012
ChrisSEA(14:50:39):
Richardyoubasallywantustobelievethatasthe20thcenturywore
on,andheartdiseaseandotherdegenerativediseasesbecamemore
andmoreprevalent,thatpeoplewereeatingMOREoftraditional
foodsinlockstep.Butthatsnotthecase.Again,WestonAPricesaw
whatwashappening.Justthefactalonethatbutterwasbeing
displacedbymargarineshouldbeabigcluehere.
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Reply
23032012
Richard(13:28:43):
Ialreadypostedyouthemostcomprehensivetrialever,whichyou
brieflyreferredassomethingthatsbeendebunked(justlikethe
AncelKeysstudy..LOL)
TheLipidResearchClinicsCoronaryPrimaryPreventionTrial
results.I.Reductioninincidenceofcoronaryheartdisease.
Anyway,sinceitdidntdoforyou,wellcontinue:
Whenyouhavedebunkedthisindetail,letmeknow,Illhave
plentyofmoreforyou.
Jointeffectofhighdensitylipoproteincholesterolandlowdensity
lipoproteincholesterolontheriskofcoronaryheartdisease
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(14:48:09):
Richardwrote:Ialreadypostedyouthemostcomprehensivetrial
ever[...]
Waitaminute.Youmeanthiswasyourbestshot?Nokidding?
Reply
23032012
Richard(13:33:18):
Ialsopostedalreadythis,butsinceyoumissed,welldoitagain.Its
allvery2012.
Eggcholesterolinthediet
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/eggcholesterolinthediet/
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(13:53:45):
AndyourheroAncelKeyshimselfsaidin1990:Theresno
connectionwhatsoeverbetweencholesterolinfoodandcholesterol
inblood.Andweveknownthatallalong.Cholesterolinthediet
doesntmatterunlessyouhappentobeachickenorarabbit.
Richard,youretheheroofjunkscience.
189/233
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Reply
23032012
Richard(14:42:43):
Yes,andsciencehasshownthatKeyswaswronginthisissue.
Simpleasthat.HillebowhichMingerreferredasawesome,certainly
didnotmisshischanceconfirmingthelipidhypothesis.
Ipersonallydonotgivetwocentwhichdrivesbloodcholesterol,
cholesterolorsaturatedfat.Itsallthesame.
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23032012
Wizzu(14:53:12):
sciencehasshownthatKeyswaswronginthisissue
Science?Referenceplease?
HillebowhichMingerreferredasawesome,certainlydidnotmiss
hischanceconfirmingthelipidhypothesis
Hilleboe,didhenow?Referenceplease?
Ipersonallydonotgivetwocentwhichdrivesbloodcholesterol,
cholesterolorsaturatedfat.Itsallthesame.
MmmhIdontthinkyouentirelyrealisewhatyoureactually
revealingaboutyourselfbywritingsuchasentence.
Stillwaitingfortheproofsyoupromised.
Reply
23032012
Richard(15:01:54):
Primitivenutritiongivesplentyofreference.Checkouttheresponse
forMinger,fourvideosintotal.Hillebocholestrolviewswasinone
ofthem.ThepointwastoridiculehowMingerportraysYerushalmy
andHilleboasthegoodguysandKeysasthebad,whileattempting
tocreateasoapoperaforherreaders.
190/233
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Reply
23032012
Wizzu(15:25:34):
Primitivenutritiongivesplentyofreference.Checkoutthe
responseforMinger,fourvideosintotal
Imnotgoingtolookatvideos(Imuchprefertoreadanyway)from
ananonymousclown,justbecauseyouretoolazytogivemea
straightanswer.
Weveallbeengatheringbynow,thatyoudontliketoplayfair,but
yourejustshootingyourselfinthefootbynotevenreplyingto
directquestions.Theaudiencehereisnotexactlycomposedof
hillbillies,youknow.Youwontimpressthemwithhighschool
rethorics.
Yourcredibilitywasalreadyverylow,butitsgettinglowerbythe
second.
So.doyouhaveactualanswerstomyquestions?
Whereisthepromisedscientificproofofyourclaimthatcholesterol
causesheartdisease?
Imalsowondering:howoldareyou,Richard?(notthatIm
expectingahonestreplytothisquestionanyway.)
Reply
23032012
gager(16:16:07):
191/233
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IthinkRichardisbeingdishonest.Ithinkhisagendaistoconvert
peopletoveganatanycost.Ethicsbedamn,theendsjustifythe
means.
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(16:50:34):
IthinkRichardisbeingdishonest
Ofcourseheisbeingdishonest.Ivesimplybeentryingtomakeit
entirelyplainforthecasualreaderwhocouldstillbefooled.Most
regularcontributorshereknowbetterandcanspotsuchbaloney
fromkilometersaway,ofcourse.
Reply
23032012
LeifTerry(14:34:58):
Denise,youremyhero.
Imallforstandingupforyourselfwhenyoufeelyoureright,but
thereisadangerofbecomingazealotifyouforgetthatbeingright
dependsongoodscienceandgoodarguments(andwithita
willingnesstobewrong).
Hereyououtofyourwaytodevilify(isthataword?)AncelKeys
whenyoucouldeasily,asmanyofusdid,writehimoffaspartof
theproblem.
Furthermore,youwentoutofyourwaytorespondto
PlantPositivesdemeaningYouTubevideosinwhichhe:
1.Admittedhedidntunderstandwhatyouwrote
2.Clearlyhadntreadwhatyouwrote
3.Respondedwithaseriesofadhominemattacksonyou
Mostofuswouldhavewrittenhimoffasajerk,butyoupatiently
triedtoexplaintheissuetohim.
Youamodelofgoodscientificdiscourseindarktimeandasaintof
thefunctionalpaleomovement.
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(14:57:25):
asaintofthefunctionalpaleomovement.
OMGthiscomplimentisevenmoreembarassingthatmine.*LOL*
Ihearyou,Terry.ButletsnottaketherisktohaveDenisegetting
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Ihearyou,Terry.ButletsnottaketherisktohaveDenisegetting
toofullofherself.Weneedhertostayaslucidasshesbeenuptill
now.
Reply
23032012
Richard(15:08:35):
VeganshavetheknightedprofessorinepidemiologyRichardPeto,
theinventorofmetaanalysis,thestatisticwizardinChinaStudy,
professorinOxford.VeganshaveWilliamCliffordRoberts,thechief
editorofAmericanJournalofCardiology.VeganshaveGeorge
Lundberg,theformereditorofJama.
PaleohasMinger,aprotgofWestonPriceFoundation,a
foundationthatnevermentionsthatmr.Priceactuallypromoted
highcarbdietbasedonwholewheat.AndunlikeMinger,theabove
mentionedgentlemenhavenotbeenaccusedofscientific
dishoneustyandplagiarism.
Reply
23032012
Richard(14:57:06):
Mingerwrote:
Andalthoughresearchonvegansislimited,somestudiessuggest
theyhaveasignificantlyhighermortalityratethanvegetariansand
healthconsciousomnivores,
Sheforgottomentionthattheoverallreporteddeathforvegansfor
the20yearfollowupwas23person.Whatacase.Andmissedher
chancetoa)stressthattheresearchersfullyadheredtothelipid
theory:
VegetariandietwasassociatedwithareducedRRof0.70(95%CI,
0.411.18)forischemicheartdisease,whichcouldpartlyberelated
toavoidanceofmeat.
b)illustratethatthescientistconsideredahealthconscious
omnivorousdiet(usedasacontrolgroup)assomethingwhich
containsverysmallamountofanimalfoods,verycontrarytoher
viewsc)informthatvegansnonspeakingcountries(Germany)are
notgenetallyevenawareoftheneedforb12supplementation(not
everyoneisblessedtoliveintheStates).
MingerrecommendspeopletofollowKurtHarrisarchevorediet,a
getyourcholesterolsonthe300mg/dlrangewithinweeksdiet
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Doesthissoundwewouldhaveasincerepeopleshowingscientific
integrityhere,
Highcholesterol=dieyoung!
Relationshipofbaselineserumcholesterollevelsin3largecohorts
ofyoungermentolongtermcoronary,cardiovascular,andallcause
mortalityandtolongevity
Minger,isitfairtosaythatyouarenotasincereandgoodperson?
Andthatyouaremanipulativeplagiator.
Reply
23032012
gager(15:58:14):
Isuspectthatyourbrainissufferingmalnutrition.Thatmight
explainyourblatheringnonsense.Tryeatingsomeanimalprotein
withaheavydoseofsaturatedfat.Goodforthecure.
Reply
23032012
Richard.Youhavebeenledtowaterbuthaveclearlychosenthat
youdontwanttodrink.Youhaveshownmanytimesthatyouare
justinterestedinrepeatingthesameplatitudeswithoutbacking
themup.
Bytheway,IvebeenfollowingadietsimilartoKurtHarris
archevoredietformanyyearsnow(alittleoveradecade)andmy
bloodlipidsareallterrificbytheway.SohavemillionsofothersIm
sure,sopleaseenoughwiththetalkingoutofyouryouknow
what.
Addmetothequorumthatseemstobeformingtohaveyou
banned.
Reply
23032012
Richard(19:03:28):
ThoseontheveryleftofbellcurvecaneatKurthHarrisdietand
havetheircholesterolunder150mg/dl,90%cannot.
SorryDeniseMingy,ifIvewenttopersonallevel,Illwatchmy
languageinthefuture.However,Ithinkyoushouldsharpenupand
jointheteamgoodpeopleandstopyourantiveganBScrusade.
194/233
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Reply
23032012
gager(19:36:27):
Havingatotalcholesterolofunder180hasahigherdeathratefrom
allcausesespeciallycancer.Cholesterolhasthefunctionof
protectingagainstinflammationandcancer.
Reply
23032012
Richard(20:32:55):
LOL..Givemeabreak.Manyouneedtobreakwiththat
destructivereligionofyours.Cancercauseslowcholesterol,notthe
otherwayaround.Also,oldsickpeopleseetheircholesterol
plummeting,onceitsbeenhighmostoftheirlives.
WilliamCastellithechiefscholarofFraminghamstudy.
Youknow,weknowthatifIcangetyourtotalcholesteroldown
aroundletssay100to130orso,andIhavemaybenotquitea
billionpeopleontheearthlikethat,andthosepeoplecannotget
atherosclerosis.YouknowintheChinaStudy,forexample,when
ChouEnlaiwasdyingofcancerhestartedastudyinChinajustlike
theFraminghamStudy.Theonlydifferencewasitwasin
880,000,000peoplesoitwasalittlelargerthantheFramingham
Study.ButyouknowtheyfoundthesevillagesinChinawhereyou
couldntgetaheartattackoryoucouldntgetdiabetesandthe
womencouldntgetbreastcancerandyouknowtheirtotal
cholesterolwere127,butthechanceswecouldevergetAmericans
downthatlowwithdietandexercisearenotgood.
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KIRKHAMILTON:Butwhatwouldthedietbeifyoudidnthave
drugsandyoucouldgeteverybodytodoexactlywhatyouwanted
dietwiseintheUnitedStates?Howwouldyoureversetheheart
disease?
DR.WILLIAMCASTELLI:Wellyoudhavethemonapure
vegetariandietandnotgettingfatonthevegetariandiet.
Reply
23032012
Richard(20:46:02):
Basedonthedataathand,cholesterolcannotbetoolow.
Impossible.TherequirementforLDLinbodyareridiculouslylow.
Everyonewithcholesterolover150mg/dlisinhighriskgroupand
shouldconsiderstatinsHeyjustlistenLorenCordain,notasingle
ofhishuntergatherergroupshavecholesterolover150mg/dl,meat
eaterscanrarelyachievethiswithoutparasite.Andparasitesare
paleo.
Theverymomentyouhaveyourdoctorsuggestingstatinsonyou,
keepinmindthatyouactuallywerewarned).
.Onlypurevegetariansforpracticalpurposesdonotneed
statins,mostoftherestofusdo
WilliamCRoberts,2009,thechiefeditorofAmericanJournalof
Cardiology
Reply
23032012
Wizzu(21:37:48):
Everyonewithcholesterolover150mg/dlisinhighriskgroupand
shouldconsiderstatins
Anotherscientificproofyoullneverbringtothetable:dostatins
actuallysavelives?Theydont.Neverhad,neverwill.Proveme
wrong,witchhunter.Youcant.
Talktalktalklikeaparrot,thatsallyouareabletodo.Youresoout
ofyourleagueandsounawareofit.Sophomoric.Investigatethe
meaning.
YoucouldtakeahintfromthewaysomeonelikeBrianhandlesa
discussionwithaconflictingpointofview.Thatsthewayrational,
adultpeopledoit.
Butyoureobviouslyunabletotakeahintofanysort.Whocares,
196/233
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Butyoureobviouslyunabletotakeahintofanysort.Whocares,
youreasgoodasbannedfromhere,itsamatterofhours,maybe
minutes.Goodbye,witchhunter.
Reply
24032012
Richard(06:47:22):
Wiffu,youhavenoclue.Thereareloadsofstudiesdocumenting
decreaseincoronarydeathsduetodrugs.
Reply
24032012
James(09:22:06):
IamsorryDenisebutIamendingmysubscriptiontotheupdates.I
willmissseveralcommentators,butmostofthemseemtohaveleft
alongtimeagoanyways.Iwilldistillthebestandputitina
separatefile.PeoplelikethisRichardcharacteriswhatiswrong
withAmerica
Reply
24032012
gager(09:30:27):
James.Iwillnolongerbaitthetroll.ImfinishedwithRichard.
Noneedtoleave.
Reply
24032012
Wizzu(11:07:41):
SOPHOMORIC
197/233
11/20/2014
SOPHOMORIC
1:conceitedandoverconfidentofknowledgebutpoorlyinformed
andimmature
TheOVERCONFIDENCEEFFECTisawellestablishedbiasin
whichsomeonessubjectiveconfidenceintheirjudgmentsisreliably
greaterthantheirobjectiveaccuracy,especiallywhenconfidenceis
relativelyhigh.Forexample,insomequizzes,peopleratetheir
answersas99%certainbutarewrong40%ofthetime..
DeliberateFLAMING,asopposedtoflamingasaresultof
emotionaldiscussions,iscarriedoutbyindividualsknownas
FLAMERS,whoarespecificallymotivatedtoinciteflaming.These
usersspecializeinflamingandtargetspecificaspectsofa
controversialconversation,andareusuallymoresubtlethantheir
counterparts.Theircounterpartsareknownastrollswhoareless
professionalandwriteobviousandbluntremarkstoincitea
flamewar,asopposedtothemoresubtle,yetpreciseflamers.Some
websitesevencaterforflamersandtrolls,byallowingthemafree
environment,suchasFlameWarsforum.
Denise,reallyitsmorethantimetomuzzlethebeast.
Inmyopinion,assomeonewhosbeenamoderatoronmany
forums,youshouldntevengivemorethanasinglewarningto
peoplewhogivesignsofflamingorpostthesamelinkmorethan3
timeswithoutanyoneaskingforit(whichisspamming).Banning
suchindividualsshouldbeyourfirstchoiceafterafirstwarning,
NOTyourlastresortone.Itsnotaquestionoftoleranceorthelack
ofit,notatall.Itsaquestionofkeepingyourbloganinvitingplace
bykeepingthetrollsandflamersawaysothatnormalpeoplecan
haveactualexchanges.
Mytwocents.
Reply
23032012
Heidi(20:50:58):
Thoseareopinions.Nobodysgonnachangeyourmind,wegetit.
Buggeroff,Dude.
Reply
23032012
ChrisSEA(21:27:25):
Right,opinions.Iwouldlovetoseewhatkindofconflictsofinterest
Mr.editorhasalso.Consideringtheconflictsofinterestthosesetting
healthycholesterollevelshave(financialtiestothe
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pharmaceutical/statinindustry)Iwonderhowanyonecantake
anythingtheysayasserious.
http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d5621
Conclusions:Theprevalenceoffinancialconflictsofinterestand
theirunderreportingbymembersofpanelsproducingclinical
practiceguidelinesonhyperlipidaemiaordiabeteswashigh,anda
relativelyhighproportionofguidelinesdidnothavepublic
disclosureofconflictsofinterest.Organisationsthatproduce
guidelinesshouldminimiseconflictsofinterestamongpanel
memberstoensurethecredibilityandevidencebasednatureofthe
guidelinescontent.
Reply
23032012
gager(22:16:58):
LOL..Givemeabreak.Manyouneedtobreakwiththat
destructivereligionofyours.Cancercauseslowcholesterol,notthe
otherwayaround.
RichardyouarereallyatiresomePOS.Correlationisnotcausation.I
didnotsayacholesterolreadingisthecause,Isaidacholesterol
readinglowerthan180hasahigherdeathratefromallcauses.Ijut.
Reply
24032012
Richard(06:42:44):
@Heidi,
youarereligioussectmembers.Youwouldnotchangeyourmind
evenwhilehavingyoursymptomfree,first(andlast)heart
attach.suddencardiadicdeath.
Gager,
doyouthinkyourpostulationoncholesterolhasanyrelevanceto
anythingrelatedtohealth.Yes,weknowthatsickpeoplewhoalso
takestatinshavelowcholesterol,whichfurtherplummetsgradually
whiletheconditionofthepatientsgoesdown.Butwhattheheck
thishavetodowithpeoplewhokeephealthycholesterollevels,
under150mg/dlwithlifestylefactorsandaccodingtodataare
immunetomanydiseases.InJapanduringthefifties,under
150mg/dlwasthenorm,year1950therewas18autopsyreported
deathfromprostatecancerinthewholenation.Justtogiveyouone
example.
199/233
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Reply
6042012
stabbyr(19:33:15):
Itisimportanttotakecontextintoconsideration.Therearemultiple
factorsthatcontributetothesusceptibilityofLDLtooxidation,so
justsayingthatcholesterolitselfisproblematicandleavingitatthat
isntexactlywhatwewanttobedoing.
TherearesomeeggsthatdonotincreasethesusceptibilityofLDLto
oxidationhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18442246Theyare
higherinantioxidantsthatprotectLDLfrombecomingoxidized,
andlowerinpolyunsaturatedfat,apotentialoxidantwithinLDL.
Sorightawaythemantracholesterolbadoughttobethrownout
thewindow.Itdependsoncontext,right?
Isntitalsoplausiblethatthedegreetowhichonecooksa
polyunsaturatedfatinfluencesthedegreetowhichitisoxidized?
Obviouslyoxidizedpolyunsaturatedfatswillincreasethe
susceptibilityofLDLtooxidation,ormodifyotherconstituentsof
eggs.Itendtoonlyeatsoftboiledeggs,andsomepeopleonlyeat
raweggyolks,whichIdontknowifImpreparedtodo!Butsuffice
tosaytherearenumerousthingstotakeintoconsideration,
includingtheoxidativeenvironmentofthebloodstream.Reducing
theamountofoxidantsinthebloodstreamwillalsohaveanimpact.
Soyouseetheissueiskindofcomplex,andblanketstatements
arentwarranted.ThisiskindofwhyIliketopoststudiesand
discussthings,notpostvideos,becausevideosareanextremely
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limitedwayofdiscussingthings.OnyouYoutubenoless!Notthe
bestplaceforlearning,Illtellya.
Soyouseetheissueiskindofcomplex,andblanketstatements
arentwarranted.ThisiskindofwhyIliketopoststudiesand
discussthings,notpostvideos,becausevideosareanextremely
limitedwayofdiscussingthings.OnyouYoutubenoless!
Reply
6042012
stabbyr(19:39:15):
deniiiiise,whycantweeditourcomments?GetDisqusor
somethingwithacommunityelement.Therewillbesomany
benefits.AlsoforsomereasonthingsstoppedscrollingdownwhenI
typedandIcouldntseewhatIwastyping,soIhadtocopyand
pasteintoaworddocumentbutthensomethingmessedupwhen
copyingandpasting.
Weraccoonsdonothaveanaffinityfortechnology.Thisisapleafor
change.
Thisisap
Reply
6042012
ChrisSEA(19:52:36):
Ithinkyoureright.Ivebeensayingthis,thatthequalityofthefeed
thataregiventochickensaltersthequalityoftheeggsthatcome
fromthem.Thatandalsothechickensthemselves.Chickensthatare
vegetarianfedareusuallyfedsoy.Thissoyaltersthefattyacid
profileoftheeggstowardsPUFAheavyfats.Iamveryluckytoget
eggsfromasmallfarm,Iveinteractedwiththechickenshaving
beentherefromtimetotimeandknowtheyarewelltakencareof,
trulyfreerange,peckingaroundthegrassandbushes,etc.The
qualityoftheeggsareamazing,deeprichorangecolor.Notthe
tepidyellowcolorofcommercialeggs.IlikescrambledeggsandI
usuallybeginscramblingtheeggswhitefirst,thenaddtheyolks
afterthewhitesaremorecookedsotheyolksstaywet.Ishould
alsonotethatIhavementionedthatinthenameofthischolesterol
andsaturatedfatarebadnonsensecorporationsandgovernments
soldHUGEamountsofPUFArichvegetableoils.Florence
Hendersonprobablymadeabigchunkofchangesellingcorn,
safflowerandsunfloweroilsforhighheatcooking.The
commercials,availableonYouTube,extolthevirtuesofthese
natural,healthy,lightoilsforfryingfoods.Theuseofvegetable
oilsrosedramaticallyoverthepasthalfcenturywhiletraditional
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fatslikebutterandlardhavedecreasedoverthesameperiod.But
accordingtothesaturatedfatisbadpeople,itsthesaturatedfat
thathastobeavoided.
Reply
23032012
Richard(19:04:34):
Ontheveryrightofthebellcurve,thatis.
Reply
28032012
gager(15:10:43):
Moreevidencethatgovernmentsareincompetent.
http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.aspx?
s=/mp4/LJO190v1_WS
Reply
31032012
anna(18:56:43):
Heatherrepeatedseveraltimesthefollowingwisdom:
Fromlookingattheskeletalevidence,itseemsthatwheateating
culturesareextremelypronetotheskinnyfacesandweakteeth
issues
Well,Iamprettysurethatthereareethnicdifferencesandpeople
withthesamedietlivingnexttoeachotherhaveskinnyorround
faces.Ialsoamprettysurethatroundfacenessisasignofidiocy.
Reply
31032012
WhatPricedidwastoconvincinglydocumentinthousandsof
photographshowthefacialfeaturesoftribalpeopleschanged
whentheystartedeatingwhiteflourandsugarandother
Westernfoods,althoughIdontthinkhereallyfiguredoutthe
WHYofitall.Whatisinterestingisthatifyoulookattheancient
Europeanskeletons,theskullsarenicelyproportioned,withplenty
ofroomforteeth,andwidehipsthatmakeiteasiertohavebabies,
andfewcavities.WhatweseeinthatsameEuropeanstocknoware
kidsthatdonthaveroomfortheirwisdomteethoreventheir
regularteeth,andcanthavestraightteethwithoutbraces.
Youcanseethesamedivideifyoulookatsomeimmigrantgroups,
esp.fromsomewherelikeKorea.Theparentseventhoughthey
oftengrewupinpoorvillageswithnotenoughtoeathavewide
facesandhealthyteeth.ThekidsthatgrewupeatingAmericanfood
havecrookedteeth,acne,andnarrowfaces,butaretaller.
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Now,inourfamily,Ihaveanarrowface,lotsoffilledteeth,and
neededbraces.Dittoformyhusband.Butourkids,whonevergot
muchtypicalAmericandiet,havewidefacesandwellspacedteeth,
andnocavities.
Soyes,therecouldbeethnicityinvolved.Butifyoulookintoit,you
caneasilyseetheevidence.Whatisreallyoddisthatexceptfor
Price,allthedentistsIvetalkedtothinkcrookedteethisjusta
geneticanomaly.
Reply
31032012
ArewesettingupforabattlebetweentheRoundfacenesssandthe
Skinnyfacenessfactions? Andofcoursetherelevantquestion,is
whichone,ifeitherismostvulnerabletotheevilsofwheat?Since
Asiansarepredominantlyoftheformerandtherearemoreofthem,
basicarithmeticgivesittotheformer.
Reply
1042012
Certainlyitsnotawar.ItWASthefocusofPricesstudythough,
whichisthepoint.Narrowfaces(narrowsinuses,narrowdental
arch)isassociatedwithmodernsocieties,anditseasilystudiedin
skeletons.Hewentallovertheworld,tookthousandsofpictures
andmeasurements.Withintheboundariesofwhathecoulddoat
thetime,itwasasmuchofastudyaswhatisbeingdoneinthe
laboratorieswithlabrats.ImkindofsurprisedthatWAPFhasnt
takenupthebanner,anddonetheirownsetofstudiesontheissue.
Andyes,Ithinkitlikelyhassomethingtodowithwheat,basedon
whoisaffected.Thefirstexamplesofthesenarrowskeletonsseems
tobetheEgyptianslookatthebustofNefertitiforagood
example.ComparetheancientEgyptianskeletonsto,say,thetribes
livingonmainlycornandbeans,inMexicoorArizona,ortherice
eatersinAsia.Itsprobablysafertolookattheskeletons,and
measurethesinusopeningsordentalarch,sothereisntany
confusionwithfat.Butexactlywhatiscausingit?Itmightbe
wheatintolerance,oritmightbeK2,oritmightbesomethingelse
entirely.
Theskulldoesdevelopbeforethebabyisborn,obviously.Sodothe
teeth.Babiesthatarebornofceliacwomen,oftenarebornwith
discoloredordamagedenamel.Wedontknowtheeffectsofthe
otherformsofwheatissues.
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Studiesonbonesisagoodwaytogetquantitativedataonpeople,
eventhosewholivedthousandsofyearsago.Asisotopeanalysis
andarcheologygetsbetter,wearegettingabetterideaofwhat
exactlypeoplereallydideatbackthen.Imnotsurewehavetoolsto
measureheartissuesthough,exceptinmummies.Hm.Lookedlike
Oetzihadheartproblems,evenonhis5,000yearolddiet(whole
grainsandgrassfedvenison?).Andbadteethtoo.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/20120305/news/31125231_1_south
tyrolmuseumlactoseintoleranceheartdisease
http://news.discovery.com/history/oetziicemanbadteeth
110615.html
Reply
1042012
anna(06:10:49):
Thefunnythingthatethnicgroupswhichhavebeenonwheat
longertendhaveskinnyfaces,unlikesomefarNorthethnicgroups
whichtendtohaveroundfaces.
Iamnowponderingthefollowingissue.Ifweareswitchingto
cannibalism,IdliketobesurethatthefoodIllgetwontbeless
tastythantheoneIhavenow.Herestheproblem:Iamprettysure
thatmyenemiesarenottasty,andIamreluctanttoeatmyfriends.
Youseetheproblem?
Reply
1042012
YesAnna,Isympathizewithyourdilemma,andyourconcernsare
notunrealistic.Perhapsyouhavebeenfollowingasimilarthreadof
thoughtasmyself.Thatis,consideringthatwithinroughly20years,
theoceanswillbefartootoxictoprovidefood,andthethinlayerof
remainingtopsoilwillbegone,aswillmostoftheoilsupplies
(whichmakesthecurrentfoodsupplypossibleformostofthe
humanpopulation).Thisofcoursemeansmassstarvationandthe
realpossibilitythatcannibalismwillnotonlybelikely,but
governmentsanctioned,asitwasduringaperiodinmedievalChina
whenfamiliescouldlegallyselltheirchildrentobeslaughteredfor
food.Giventhisasonepossiblefuture,itbecomesaworthwhile
exerciseinplanningtoconsiderwhoonewilleat,takinginto
accountbothtasteandnutritionalfactors.Consideringthatour
tastesinwesterncountriesareorientedmoretowardseating
vegetariananimals,itseemsthatvegetarians/veganswouldbethe
logicalchoice.Notonlyaretheyloweronthefoodchain,which
meansalowerconcentrationofheavymetalsandothertoxinswhich
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arefoundinhigherdensityincarnivores,buttheyarelesslikelyto
becapableofputtingupmuchresistanceduringthekill,andwill
typicallybespendingtheirdaysmindlesslygrazingwiththeirheads
down,thusmakingthehuntmuchlessenergyexpensive.The
downsidetomakingthevegetariansafoodchoice,isthatmanyof
themarelikelytohavemoresaturatedfatintheirbodiesresulting
fromgrains(especiallywheat)formingthestapleoftheirdiets,
whichwouldconcernthosefollowersofLorenCordain,butnotbea
problemforthosewhohaveadequatelymisunderstoodWeston
Pricesdietaryrecommendations(readWPFfoundersandmanyin
thePaleo/Primalfold).Anotherbigproblemwiththevegetariansis
thatunlesswecullthosefromtheherdthathavedesignedtheir
tastelessplantdietsintelligently,theyarelikelytohaveanOmega3
deficiency.Withthestrictvegangroupwhohavefailedto
supplementwithB12,wewillhavetobemindfulofpossiblemental
disorders,whichintroducesunpredictablevariablesintothehunt.
So,Anna,youseethatyourdilemmaismorecomplexthansimple
foodchoicesrelatedtotasteandfriendship.ThusIwouldadvise
youtodoaninventoryofbothyourfriendsandenemiesandmake
thenecessaryadjustmentswiththeabovefactorsinmind.Youwill
noticethatIhaveomittedthevastmajorityofthepopulationas
viablefoodchoices,astheyconsumethetoxicStandardAmerican
Diet.Whenthetimecomes,theywillbeeasytoidentifyandavoid
asfoodchoices,bytheirobviousphysicalmarkers(morbidobesity),
extensiveknowledgeoftelevisionprogramsandpolitical
orientation(usuallyrightwingers).Ourmainconcernwiththemat
thattime,willbetomakesurethatwedontbecometheirfood
choice,astheydonotandwillnotdiscriminateregardingwhatthey
eat.Besttostayoutoftheirwayandletthemreducetheirownherd
numbers,whichshouldbeatamercifullyspeedyrateintheU.S.,
wheregluttonousgreedhaslongsincereplacedmindlesspatriotism
asmaindefiningqualityofthenationalcharacter.
Ihopethishelps,andIwishyouluck.
Reply
1042012
anna(18:30:11):
Actually,Brian,Iwasreferringtosomethingelsetotheideology,
ideologyoftheilliteratewhodidnthaveanhourofhistoryintheir
livesandpreachreturntothewonderfullifeofnoGoldenrulewhen
everyoneofcourselovedeachotherandearthandbirds.Sure.Iam
inclinedtostartadonationtosendthemtosomebasicclasses.
Frankly,areturntothischarmingperioddoesntappealtome.
205/233
11/20/2014
Reply
1042012
ItakeitAnna,thattheseilliteratesareyourenemies,whomyou
thinkwouldnotbetasty?Well,Ithinkonecouldmakeadentin
theirobviousdeprivationofthebenefitsofaLiberalArtseducation
bysomewellchosenclasses(however,notsurethatwouldmake
themmoretasty).Butatleasttheywould,withatleastaCpassing
gradeonthesecourses,belesslikelytopollutetheairwithsound
wavesspoutingplatitudesaboutsomeimaginedGoldenAge.Inthe
nutritionalworld,suchnonsenseisoftenheardamongsome
membersofboththePaleoandVegetariancrowds.Amongthe
Paleotypes,suchdriveloftentakestheformofimagininganoble,
healthyandperfectlyproportionedindividualtheveritableCrown
ofEvolution,sometimeswithnamessuchasGrok.Amongthe
lunaticfringeofthevegetarians,wefindthosewhoseconsciousness
hasbeenindeliblycolonizedbybiblicalfablesofpeopleofvibrant
healthandlongevityintothe100sofyears,whohappilycoexisted
withalllifeformsandsubsistedonfruits.
AvariantofthismoderndayRousseauviansilliness,canfoundin
thoseoflittleeducation,whoassignprivilegedtruthvalueto
outdatedscientificeffortsfromthemid20thcenturyandbefore,
mainlybecauseitsupportstheirlimitedunderstanding.Suchwork
iseasierforthemtograspasitdoesntchallengetheirmodestly
endowedmentalarenawiththeknowledgeofsophisticatedcurrent
researchmethodology.
Reply
1042012
anna(22:21:53):
Brian,IwasthinkingaboutmentioningthecharmingJeanJacques
withhistendencytodropchildrenhereandthere,abuseeveryone
andwritethemostunreadablenovels.Yes,itgoesbacktohim.
Mydelicateandintelligentstomach respondsbrutallytoallNew
Age(whateveritis)idiocyandtoallthenonsenseyoudescribeso
well.Ireallycantstandit.Itstragicthathistoryisnttaught.Inthis
countryitwasdeliberatelykilledwithabsolutelytragic
consequences.
IamsorryIwasconfusedbyyouoriginalcomments.Andyes,Iam
anomnivore.
Reply
2042012
Ifyoumeanbyoriginalcomment,mypostingrecannibalism,this
206/233
11/20/2014
Ifyoumeanbyoriginalcomment,mypostingrecannibalism,this
wasarunatthefineartofsatire(althoughfilledwithPearlsof
Wisdom).
WherehasRichardgone?HeseemsnottostillbeontheForksand
Knivesposteitherhashebeenbanned,orjustgottiredof
jousting?FeelinglikeInowhavetodohispartalso,andnotbeinga
vegan,thiswillbesomewhatdifficult.Itsdirtybusinessbut
someoneneedstodoit,soIguessIwilljusthavetostepuptothe
plate.Thingsaresoquiethereevengagerhasceasedhiseffortsat
beinglogicaldoyouthinkheandRichardhavebothmettheir
Makerforeachbeingontheirownparticularwrongsideofthe
Lipidhypothesis?Iamfeelingthatmaybeitistimetogoontothe
ForksandKnivespostandstirthepotandannoysomefolksthere.
Reply
2042012
anna(16:24:11):
No,Brian,Ihadinmindyourinitial(first)andmaybeacoupleof
commentswhichfollowed.
Reply
31032012
anna(19:44:43):
Butifyoulookintoit,youcaneasilyseetheevidence
Ifyoulookintoit,youcanseeanythingyouwant.Personally,Ihave
acatsnarrowface(Iwasbornwithit)andmymotherhadaround
face(shewasbornwithit).So?
Reply
31032012
gager(21:51:11):
Anna,Dontconfuseacasewithastudy.Ilikeallfacesaslongas
thefacesareyoungerthanmine.
Reply
1042012
anna(06:01:26):
Gager,itisntmewhoconfuses.Readaboveaboutskinnyfaced
parentsandroundfacedchildren.WhychooseaRESPONSEfor
preaching?
Oh,studiesWhoneedsrealitywhenwecanhavestudies?
Reply
1042012
anna(12:06:55):
207/233
11/20/2014
Ah,Iforgottosaythatmymotherhadperfectteeth(nocrookedness
there)andsodidI.
Reply
13042012
ChuckW(18:50:57):
Pleasecreateanewsitesimilartothisonebutwhereyoutellpeople
whoareusingillegalrecreationaldrugsthattheyaregoodforthem.
Weallwanttohearthatourbadhabitsaregood
Reply
13042012
ChrisSEA(20:27:56):
Chuck,thatwouldntbetheleastbitlogical.Illegalrecreationdrugs
suchascocaine,marijuanaandmethamphetaminesproduce
significantoxidativestressoncellularconstituents.Itsprettyclear
fromdoingacursoryscanoftheevidencethatitwouldbelameto
attemptsomethingyourekindofsuggestingwithmorethanahint
ofsnark.
Whereasfoodslikeraw,fullfatmilkraiseglutathionelevels,
helpingtoprotectyoufromoxidativestress(suchaslipid
peroxidation).Saturatedfats(andtoadegreemonounsaturates)
alsoprotectfromoxidationbecauseoftheirstablechemical
structures.
Inthenameofantisaturatedfatandcholesterolmessagespeople
havebeenpushedintoeatinghighlyprocessandbiochemically
unstablevegetableoilswhicharequitepronetooxidation,both
insideandoutsidethebody.
Youmaywanttogocommentinforumswithpeoplewhoarelikely
tobelessswayedbyjuvenilecomments.
Reply
13042012
anna(20:58:52):
Goodcomment,Chris.
WeliveinanOrwellianworldsomechemicalnonsenseiscalled
food,eatingofrealfoodsuchasbutterandeggs(whichhavesaved
whoknowshowmanylivesthroughouthistory)iscalledaddiction.
Itsamad,madworld.
Reply
16042012
MinaMignon(16:52:48):
HiDenise,Imanewcomertoyourblog(foundyouinthe
208/233
11/20/2014
HiDenise,Imanewcomertoyourblog(foundyouinthe
referencessectionofDr.BriffasbookEscapetheDietTrap)and
Imlovingyourhumorandrigorousresearchmethodology.Inone
swiftpostyouveputalotofsocalledscientists,healthjournalists
andnutritionbloggerstoshame.Ifyoudontmindmesaying,thats
someastoundingconfoundingyouvegotgoingonhere!
Reply
20042012
Charlie(13:00:30):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/
120419163553.htm
CancerFightingGoodnessFoundinCholesterol,StudySuggests
ScienceDaily(Apr.19,2012)ASimonFraserUniversity
researcherisamongfourscientistswhoarguethatcholesterolmay
sloworstopcancercellgrowth.Theydescribehowcholesterol
bindingproteinscalledORPsmaycontrolcellgrowthinADetour
forYeastOxysterolBindingProteins,apaperpublishedinthelatest
issueoftheJournalofBiologicalChemistry.
Thescientistscametotheirconclusionwhiletryingtounderstand
howcholesterolmovesaroundinsidecellsinthefatsjourneytocell
surfaceswhereitreinforcestheiroutermembrane.
Reply
20042012
gager(16:58:59):
Thismayworkbetter.
Reply
22042012
anna(14:51:42):
Speakingofgoingwrong.
Lookatthis
AdjustingaWaistlineforaWedding,butatWhatCost?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/fashion/weddings/readers
respondtobrideslosingweightforweddings.html
Reply
26042012
bubbagyro(00:02:02):
ThehighfatconsumingcountriesareallnorthernEuropean
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ThehighfatconsumingcountriesareallnorthernEuropean
majorities.Thecountriesthatareconsideredlowfat,aresouthern
Europeanortemperateclimates,wherefreshvegetablesaremore
prevalent.
SO
IsitGenetics?Tomatoes?Chilipeppers?Wasabe?
Whasup?
Reply
26042012
anna(06:27:33):
Howabouttheclimateitselfyouknowthesun,thewateryou
canactuallyswimin,thenatureyoucanactuallybeinandnotto
lookatthroughafrozenwindow,morerelaxedwayoflifeandyes,
morevegetables.
Nobodynegatesthatvegetablesarehealthy.Inotherwords,whatis
yourpoint?
Reply
3052012
ubermik(12:54:08):
Morefat.morevegetables?Itsallsoconfusing
ADenisebaseddietwouldbeveryappealingandIsuspectboth
healthyandnonfattening
Reply
27052012
DougSpoonwod(04:35:32):
Denisesparticularsignificantlyplantbaseddiet,mightcomeasa
littletoohighinsugar(thoughprobablynowherenearasbadas
someonewhoroutinelydrinksodasorsocalledenergydrinks).
Becauseofthisshemaycomeatriskofdeveloping
hypercholesteromiaandhyperlipidemia
Fruitandjuice,especiallycarriesahighsugarcontent,and
consumingtoomuchofitrapidlyraisesthebloodsugar.Thebody
compensatestothesugarhighwithasurgeofinsulinfromthe
pancreasandtheinsulin,inturn,stimulatestheliverto
manufacturemorecholesterol.(thetextreferstothisstudy:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198910053211403).It
mayalsoelevatetriglyceridelevels.p.71of_PreventandReverse
HeartDiseasebyCaldwellEsselstyn(othersourcesexistonlinefor
this).
210/233
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Ofcourse,sugarcomesasjustoneaspectoffruitconsumption.The
fiberinfruitcanalsoplayanimportantrole.Isuspectmore
vegetableswouldworkoutbetterforher.Also,Isuspectshecould
benefitfromsomelightlycookedfood.Tomatoeshavemore
lycopenewhencooked.Otherexamplesexist:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/536645vegetablesthatshould
becookedtomaximizetheirnutrients/.
Reply
15062012
Markus(18:08:46):
Doug,Igetyourmainpoint,butyouleftoutthesentencethat
precededtheEsselstynquoteinyourpost:Itisalsobesttoavoid
drinkingpurefruitjuices.Thisrecommendationisbecauseofthe
nutrientsandfiberfoundinthepulpandskin,comparedtothe
fructoseconcentrationfoundinthejuice,anaspectthatyou
mentionedaswell.Thus,Esselstynscharacterizationofthe
glycmicresponsetofruitasasugarhighismisleading,because
1)hewasreferringonlytotoomuchfructose,and2)infact,the
glycmicloadofmostfruitismedicallycategorizedaslow.
Ofcourse,anyfoodconsumedinexcessiveamountscanbe
problematic.IhavenoknowledgeofhowmuchwholefruitDenise
eatseveryday,butafewservingswouldbefinebyanystandard.
Reply
5052012
IfLowCarbDietsaresogood,howdoweexplainTheChina
Study?|LiveFreeFromObesity(16:41:08):
[...]aquicksummaryofwhatitsallabout.ToquotefromDenises
paperTheTruthAboutAncelKeys(themanwhostartedthe
wholefatisbadforyoushtick):Correlationisnt[...]
Reply
27052012
DougSpoonwod(03:25:36):
Infact,Keyswasprettymuchridiculedfortheweaknessofhis
fat/heartdiseasetheorybyotherscientistsattheWHOmeeting,and
wheneverhisgraphwascitedinmedicaljournalslateron,itwas
usuallypairedwithsomecriticism.
Theideathatfatcomesasakeyfactorinthedevelopmentofheart
diseasecertainlydidntoriginatewithhim.DanielSteinbergs_The
CholesterolWars_p.3941implythis(J.Groenproposingthatthe
unavailabilityofanimalfatsduringthewarhadcausedadecrease
inbloodcholesterolwhichhadinturncausedtheobserveddecrease
211/233
11/20/2014
ofriskofheartattacks,4differentmetabolicwardstudieswhich
startedin1952which*experimentally*carefullydemonstratedif
saturatedonlygetschangeinadiet,thenbloodcholesterollevels
rise).RaymondReiserspaperfrom1973here:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/26/5/524.full.pdf,referencesabookby
Bloorfrom1943,whichmightcontaininformationastowhenthis
ideafirstexisted.
Reply
1062012
Doesdietarycholesterolincreaseserumcholesterol?|Marks
DailyAppleHealthandFitnessForumpage(19:47:23):
[...][...]
Reply
22062012
NigelKinbrum(11:03:09):
ThedataclearlyshowthatspeakingEnglishiswhatkillsyou,nest
cepas?;p
ThispostandtheoneafteritdontshowuponBlogger.Ithought
youddied!*sadface*
Reply
11082012
anna(22:47:33):
Ialwayssaythatgeeksshouldntbeallowedtovote.Today,its
timeforsomeelaboration.Ofcourse,theauthorofthisidiocyis
someilliterategeek.NowwhatshouldIstartadding?
Ithinkthateachgeekshouldget5psychiatrists/psychologists
workingonhis(usuallyitshe)complexesand5educators
explainingsimplethings,suchasYoushouldknowthatthereare
manycountriesintheworld.Youshouldknowthatpeoplespeak
differentlanguages.Itstimeforyoutotrytolearnadifferent
language.ForthenextdecadeyoullberepeatinginlanguageM
YNAMEISYoucandoit.Bytheendofthedecadeyouwillbe
abletosayit.
Reply
28082012
KristinaGillingham(23:06:02):
HelloDenise,
Iwentthroughyourresearch.Ireallyappreciatepeoplethatareinit
fortheirhealth,andforthehealthofothers.Ireadnottolongago
aboutAmericasomega6to3epidemic.Omega6causing
212/233
11/20/2014
inflammationandevenconstrictingthebloodvessels.Whileomega
3isanantiinflammatory,makingyourarteriesabletoletblood
flowfreely.
InAmericainthe1920sheartdiseasewasrare.Butthepeople
didnteatthehighomega6butter,thatisatourgrocerystoretoday.
Theyatebutterthatwaslowerinomega6content.Beefandmeat
todaythatyoubuyinthegrocerystoresarehorribleinnutrition.
ButWestonAPrice,adentiststudiedpeopleinprimitiveareas,and
foundthepeopleateadiethighinanimalfats.Henoticethatthey
prizedthefatsandorganmeatsoftheanimals.Theseprimitivesate
ahighcholesteroldiet,withnosignsofatherosclerosis.Justlike
Keyssaidthecholesterolcontentofhumandietsisunimportantin
humanatherosclerosis.
Theiranimalswereraisedhealthyongrasses,insteadofgrainslike
ourcattle.Grasseskeeptheomega6to3ratioinacowaround3to
1,whilegrainfedcattlehaveabouta20:1ratio.Theseprimitives
teethwerealmostcavityfreecomparedtotheAmericans.They
werefreeofdiseasesandwereaveryhappypeoplewithlittlecrime
intheirtowns.TheEskimosate80%oftheircaloriesasanimalfat
andwerefreeofHeartDisease.Theothersatearound60%orsoof
animalfatwithnoheartdisease.
Todaygrassfedandrangefreemeannothing.Themeatindustry
grassfeedandthenfeedcorntocow60to90days,whichstripsthe
meatofnutrition,andincreasesomega6.Makesureyourmeatyou
buyis100%grassfed,andyourchickens/eggsarepastured,where
theycangooutinthefieldsandpickliketheirsupposedto.
Ifoundthisinfoonwestonaprice.orgawesomewebsite.Also
eatwild.com.
OntheWestonAPricewebsite,youcanactuallylearnhowto
remineralizeyourteeth.Whichitworks,becauselastyearIate
balckberriesandmyteethstained.ThisyearIatethemandthere
wasnostainsonmyteeth,showingIhaveacoveringofmineral
filledenamelonthem.
Youeitherpayagoodpricefornutritionnow,oryoupayforitlater,
withdiseaseanddentalwork.
Reply
29082012
Markus(00:33:20):
Kristina,Iappreciatethatyouhavereadalotofinteresting(but
213/233
11/20/2014
Kristina,Iappreciatethatyouhavereadalotofinteresting(but
alreadywellknown)thingsonpopularWebsites,butwhen
parrotingthemyouneedtolearntobemoreaccurateinyourown
conclusions.Forexample,yourclaimthatfeedinggraintocattle
stripsthemeatofnutritionissilly,sinceachangeintheratioof
essentialfattyacidsisnotthesamethingasremovingmeats
nutrition.Istheproteineliminatedorevenreduced?Arethe
vitamins?Istheiron?Thecreatine?Ofcoursenot.
Inaddition,evenintruegrassfedbeefthereisonlyarelatively
smallamountofomega3,becausetheoverallfatcontentingrass
fedmeatismuchlessthaningrainfed.Hadyoureadthe
explanatoryinformationaboutthisontheEatWildsitethatyou
referto,youwouldfiguredoutthata3ozservingofpuregrassfed
beefwouldhaveonlyabout65mgofomega3,whichisbetterthan
nothingbutstillapaltrynumber.(Thereducedomega6isabenefit,
ofcourse.)
Besides,withnoUSentityoverseeingandverifyingcommercial
claimsofgrassfedproducts,thereisnoguaranteeofbuyingsuch
food,unlesspurchasingdirectlyfromarancherknowntoyou
personally.
Reply
31082012
Goodexampleofthethinkingbehindourhealthandnutrition
policies|AdventuresinNutritionalTherapy(20:55:59):
[...]Dr.Lustigrefersto,couldusesomeequalairtime.Myeditsare
inbold.RawFoodSOSpresentsacloserlookatthestudyhere(via
PrimalGirl).Theresaquicksummaryafterthefirsttwographsand
thephotoofKeys.[...]
Reply
20092012
ThisOrganisationWillChangeTheWorld|OscarWilton
(10:30:00):
[...]thisisjustnottrue.DeniseMingerobjectivelypicksthestudy
apartwithpanacheonherblog,RawFoodSOSandassuchitiswell
wortharead.Alotoftheotherdietaryinformationavailabletousis
also[...]
Reply
21092012
Tom(12:12:05):
Denise,PlantPositiveabsolutelyhumiliatedyou.Ihavebeena
214/233
11/20/2014
Denise,PlantPositiveabsolutelyhumiliatedyou.Ihavebeena
diligentreaderofyourblogforseveralyearsnow.Notanymore.
Youareintellectuallydishonest.Youalsosaidinhiscomment
sectionthatyoueat90%plantsand10%meat,whichisironicallyin
linewithwhatT.ColinCampbellrecommends.Hypocritemuch?
Reply
21092012
IhavealreadymadesimilarcommentstoTominaprevious
posting.However,unlikehimItendtooverlooktheinaccuraciesof
Denisestheoreticalcritiqueandapplaudheractualbehavior,which
isconsistentwitheatingaplantbaseddiet(9010).Iamguessing
thatevenPlantPositivewouldapproveofheractualdirection.
Reply
22092012
ChrisSEA(22:42:28):
Anyoneinterestedinfindingoutthelongtermconsequencesof
avoidinganimalbasedfoodswouldbeinterestedinlisteningtothis
interviewwithJohnNicholson.
http://pamkilleen.com/app/download/7012988804/Andy+Oudman+Pam+Killeen+John+Nicholson.mp
Hewasaveganfor26yearswhosehealthbecameincreasingly
worseoverthatperiod.Hessincewrittenabook,TheMeatFix
abouthowhishealthimprovedbyreintroducinganimalbased
foods.
Reply
23092012
Thisevidenceisanecdotalandthusprovesnothing.Iknowmany
longtermveganswhodoverywellhealthwise,andthosewhodo
not.Thesamecanbesaidforcarnists.
Ihavetriedtofollowgoodresearchfindingsandmyown
experience.ThetippingpointformewasarecentCIMTassessment
whichindicatedthatmyvascularagewasseveralyearsgreaterthan
mychronologicalagethismeansconsiderableplaqueinthe
arteries.Thisisconsistentwithmyecentresultsofborderlinehigh
LDLandTCH.FormostofmylifeIhaveeatenadietintherangeof
primalandWPF,butwithveryfewgrainsandlegumes.Duringthe
pastfewmonthsIhavecutmostanimalproductsandhavedropped
myLDLandTCHby32pointsandincreasedmyHDLbyseveral
points.ResearchshowsthatbyreachingalowLDLandstaying
thereforseveralyears,atheroscleroticplaquestypicallyreduce.Of
215/233
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coursethispersonalevidenceisalsoanecdotal,andbyitselfproves
little.However,thisanecdotalevidenceisconsistentwiththebulk
ofnutritionalandmedicalresearch.
Reply
23092012
ChrisSEA(00:48:22):
itsprettyeasytohandwaiveawaypeoplesactualhealthoutcomes
likethisandthenfocusonlaboratorymarkers.Thisiswhat
modernmedicinehasdoneforus.Buthisstoryisnotunique.Its
quiteeasytofindpeopletalkingabouttryingveganismandhaving
worseninghealth.Theresapointwhereanecdotesaremeaningful.
Besides,eventhoughheatenoanimalproducts,andtoputitinhis
ownwords,Iwaddledaround,sweatingandshortofbreath,
battlingextremelyhighcholesterol.Infacthewasonstatins
becauseofthis,yethewasonalowfatvegandiet.
Reply
2012013
MarieWatson(17:32:14):
ThisissomethingIvesuspectedforsometimenow.Tom,your
wordsechomythoughts.Imdonehere.
Reply
21092012
Sylvain(19:45:17):
Maybethefoodsomeoneeatshasnothingtodowithpersonaltaste,
scienceandsearchoftruth?Maybe.
Reply
26092012
Charlie(11:55:09):
http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2012/09/25/silencewasthestern
reply/
Strange,inaworldwherethemostridiculousdietarystudiesare
plasteredacrossthefrontpagesofthenewspapers,andgettop
billingontheBBC.Youknowthetypeofthing.Eatingredmeat
regularlydramaticallyincreasestheriskofdeathfromheart
diseaseAtypicalheadlinefromtheDailyMail.
Butwhenatenyearstudylookingatcholesterollevels,overall
morality,andheartdiseasecomesout.Silence.Iwonderwhy?
Perhapsithassomethingtodowiththeresults.(Seebelow)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365
2753.2011.01767.x/pdf
216/233
11/20/2014
AfriendlyjournalistaskedmeifIhadseenthepaperfromNorway
whichlookedatcholesterollevelsheartdiseaseandoverall
mortality.Amazingly,asIhavesensitiveantennaeforsuchthings,I
hadnotheardoftheHUNT2study.Notquitesoamazingly,noone
elseseemstohaveheardofiteither.
Thegraphontheleftlooksatoverallmortalityvs.cholesterollevels.
Theoneontherightlooksatischaemicheartdiseaseandcholesterol
levelsinbothmenandwomen.
Asyoucansee,forwomenthestoryisverystraightforwardindeed.
Thehigherthecholesterollevel,thelowertheriskofoverall
mortality.Withregardtoheartdiseasealone,thehighestriskisat
thelowestcholesterollevel.FormenthereismoreofaUshaped
curve,butoverallmortalityishighestatthelowestcholesterollevel.
ThiswasatenyearstudydoneinNorway,lookingatfiftythousand
peoplewithnopreexistingheartdisease.Sowhatwehavehereis
fivehundredandtenthousandyearsofobservationaldata.
Reply
26092012
GoodCalories,BadCalories:ACriticalReviewTheScienceof
Nutrition(18:37:53):
[...]ThetopgraphshowsKeyssdataaspresentedbyYerushalmy
andHilleboe.Itsaverystrongcorrelation,butY&Hareskeptical
anddecidetotakesimilardatafromtheFoodandAgriculture
OrganizationoftheUnitedNationsthatincludesmorecountries
thanthemeaslysixthatKeyshad.However,contrarytoTaubess
claimthecorrelationdoesnotvanish.IfIweretorunaR2
coefficientanalysisImaynotget1.0,butIwouldcertainlygetabove
0.0.Inotherwords,suretheassociationisnotasstrongaswith
Keyssdata,butthereisadefinitiverelationship.[...]
Reply
29102012
Milk.Health.AThoroughControversy.|OscarWilton(17:17:25):
[...]gainthanthehormonaleffectofcertainfoodsonfatstorageand
energypartitioning.DespiteAncelKeyserroneousnutritional
legacythatstillpermeatesalltooresoundinglytoday,dietaryfathas
consistentlybeenshownnottobe[...]
Reply
30102012
H(16:09:23):
ThisisaworkofartThankyou!
217/233
11/20/2014
Reply
29112012
Health,Food,&Myths|SICKBITSyndicate(04:44:52):
[...]Legit?(AReviewandCritique)Critiqueofdocumentary,
ForksOverKnives,byDeniseMingerTheTruthAboutAncelKeys:
WeveAllGotItWrongDeniseMinger,RawFood[...]
Reply
29112012
Shameonyou,Dr.Oz!Hereshowto*really*eathealthyona
budget.ChurnYourOwn(18:14:19):
[...]theonetobreakittoDr.OzthattheDietHeartHypothesishas
beendisprovensomanytimessinceAncelKeysflawedSeven
CountriesStudy,publishedbackinthe1970s.Theprocessedfood
industryclingstothisoldmythbecauseif[...]
Reply
6122012
AreYouFatPhobic?|RadianceNutrtion(02:56:49):
[...]TheCholesterolMythsbyUffeRavnskov,MD,PhD.(linkto
thisonAmazon)also,checkoutthissmart,indepthblogpostby
Denise[...]
Reply
12012013
RelentlessRoger(13:09:59):
[...]RobbWolf.Sumsthingsupnicely.5Reference:RawFoodSOS.
Thisissomewhatofaramblingone,butitsfascinatingneverthe
less.Makesureyoureadit[...]
Reply
14012013
AC(17:36:27):
PlantPositivetrackeddownthefulltextforAtherosclerosis:A
ProblemInNewerPublicHealthandmadeanewvideoshowing
Keysrationaleforselectingthesixcountrieshedid.Youshould
retractyourincorrectstatementKeyscherrypickedsixcountries
andnevertolduswhy.
Reply
17012013
AgricultureSocietyDeceptionsintheFoodIndustry:Lean
Meats(19:33:27):
[...]thedevelopmentofheartdiseasebothatthepopulationand
individuallevel.ReadthisexcellentrebuttalofAncelKeysresearch
fromDenise[...]
218/233
11/20/2014
Reply
21012013
10ReasonsYouNeedCholesterol(23:52:25):
[...]Dr.AncelKeysperformedresearchinthe1950s,wherehe
proposedthatcountrieswithahigherintakeofsaturatedfatand
cholesterolhaveincreasedratesofheartdisease.TheSeven
Countriesstudyhadalotacademiccritics,butitcaughtonlike
wildfireandwasadoptedbythepublic.Whatnoone,includingthe
USgovernmentandtheAmericanHeartAssociation,tookinto
accountwasthathehadleftoutdatafromtheother15countrieshe
surveyed,makinghisresultsuseless.Ourfearofsaturatedfatand
cholesterolisbasedonaflawedstudy!Youcanreadmoreabout
thathere.[...]
Reply
28012013
HowDoYouPreventHeartDisease?(vitaminDmightnothelp,
buttheresplentyyoucando)|TheBlogofJ.D.Moyer(16:09:27):
[...]Fordecades,bothfatintakeandlipidcholesterollevelswere
associatedwithheartdisease,butneitherhasbeenshowntobe
causative.Themostfamoushighfatdietcorrelationturnedoutto
beAncelKeyscherrypickingdataforoneofhispresentations
(thoughKeysmayhavebeenunfairlymalignedbythepaleo
community,asthispostexplains).[...]
Reply
8022013
BreakingConventionalWisdomPage4|MarksDailyApple
HealthandFitnessForumpage4(17:37:24):
[...]PostedbyBigBipperIwatchedFatheadlastweek.Whatan
a$$holethatAncelKeyesguywas!Adetailedread.Awayalonea
lastalovedalongtheriverrun,pastEveandAdamsReply
With[...]
Reply
11022013
UKhealthinsurance(02:08:39):
Ithinkwhenyouworksohardtocomeuponaconclusionbasedon
studyoftheactualdatathenyoushouldbeimpartialandneutral
andlettheactualstatisticsdothetalking.Ithinkkeys,insteadof
takingthepainsofstudyingdatafromsomanycountriesandhad
concentratedononlyonecountry,India,whichhasgotmostheart
patientsthananyothercountryintheworld,wouldhavesavedlots
ofenergyandprobablyhadhispreconceivednotionsbusted
becauseIndiaistheonlycountryintheworld,whichhasgot
greatestnumberofvegetarians.
219/233
11/20/2014
Reply
12022013
gager(13:56:27):
Goodpoint.Themarkofagoodresearchscientististosearchfor
evidencethatiscontrarytohistheory.Whenevidenceisfoundthen
hiswholetheoryshouldbeabandoned.ThisiswhereCampbellisa
totalfail.Hecompletelyignoresanyevidencethatdoesnotsupport
hisbeliefs.Thisprobablyismotivatedbyeitherincomefromselling
abookorpushinghisbiasontothepublic.Both?TheFrench
paradoxisnotaparadoxitisthereasonthewholelipidtheory
shouldendinthetoilet.
Reply
13022013
Lucretia(00:21:00):
Dr.KeyesKNEWdietarycholesterolhadZERO,ZIP,NADAtodo
withcausinghighcholesterolandheartdisease.Inbrilliant
HONESTDr.JerryTennantsbookHealingisVoltageDr.Tennant
foundthatBEFOREandAFTERDr.Keyespublishedsome100
papersmostlikelyallhispaperswerepeerreviewedBSKeyes
wrotethatdietarycholesterolhaszero,zip,nadatodowithones
cholesterollevel.WeknowfromtheFraminghamstudythathas
nowgoneonforover40yearsthatthedirectorsaysthosewhoeat
theMOSTsaturatedfat,themostcholesterolandareslim(eatingfat
doesprovidehealthierenergy,healthieradrenalsanddoesmake
onemoreeasilysaitedandthusslim)havetheleastheartdisease.So
KeyesknewandBigPharmawantedustoeatmoregrainsthatare
highglycemicandcauseleptinresistanceandobesity.Hisinfowas
100%purepragandadesignedtocreatedisinfoandthusdisease.Dr.
WestonPricelongagoprovedthosethateatgrainsandsugarand
notahighfatcholesteroldiethadmorecavities,smallerjaws,brain
andskeletalproblemsanddisease.WatchTheOilingofAmerica
bySallyFallononyoutube.Cholesterolishealthyforusifitisnot
pasteurized.
Reply
16022013
Stratos
Sphere(20:00:44):
[...]http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/thetruthaboutancelkeys
weveallgotitwrong/[...]
Reply
16022013
;StratosSphere
(20:11:17):
220/233
11/20/2014
[...]http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/thetruthaboutancelkeys
weveallgotitwrong/[...]
Reply
21022013
CholesterolSunnySideUp|RosemaryCottageClinic(14:22:10)
:
[...]wayoranotherhisparadigmstuck.Oneofthebestrecent
critiquesofhisdatacanbereadhere,thankstoDeniseMingerof
RawFoodSOS.Unfortunately,whencorrelationssuchasdietary
saturatedfatiscorrelatedtoheart[...]
Reply
25022013
healthfoody(15:32:13):
Lovelystuff.
Ivejustspenthalfanhour(!)readingthecommentsanddidnot
evengethalfway!Nomentionofwhatsurelyisahugeelephantin
theblog:DidKeyeshavesomeconnection(whetherovertorcovert)
withthemargarineindustry.Iwouldntmindbettingthathedid.
PierreMeneton:
Quiditintrtsconomiquesditmanipulationdesdonnes
(Whereveryoufindvestedinterestsyouwillfindmanipulationof
thedata).
PierreMenetonFrenchgovernmentresearcherandwhistleblower
suedfordefamationbytheFrenchsaltindustryfordaringtospeak
outaboutthefinanciallinksbetweenvestedinterestsand
supposedlyindependentresearchersandsayingthatsalt
consumptioninFrancewasdoublewhatallnutritionalexperts
knewwasthesafelevel.Thecasewasdismissed.
Reply
28022013
14DayRapidFatLossPlan(02:03:10):
Thanksforyourpersonalmarvelousposting!Iactuallyenjoyed
readingit,youreagreatauthor.Iwillmakesuretobookmarkyour
blogandwillcomebackintheforeseeablefuture.Iwantto
encouragethatyoucontinueyourgreatwriting,haveanice
morning!
Reply
13032013
Jeff(22:00:18):
Denise,Imnewtoyourblogand,moregenerally,ALLofthese
221/233
11/20/2014
Denise,Imnewtoyourblogand,moregenerally,ALLofthese
onlinenutritionaldebates.Unlikemany(ormost)hereandinthe
nutritionblogosphere,Idontreallyhaveanypredeterminedview
oragendaatall.Iamnotaparticularlyhealthyperson(Ilikebeer
andImanintermittentsmoker(GASP)).AsasemilucidAmerican,
Iminterestedintheobesityepidemic,especiallyasithitsmy
pocketbookandbankruptsmycountry.Imnotaveganor
vegetarian,and,honestly,IthinkthePaleodietsintellectual
underpinningsaresortoffunny.Ifwecantfigureoutourown
nutritionalbiosphere,tryingtoemulateonefrom10,000yearsago
seems.aggressive.Andkindoffun,actually(whichIbelieveis
criminallyunderratedbytheseriousnutritioncrowd.Ifellintothe
arenawhileresearchingmypersonalcholesterolissues(10+yearsof
veryhighTC(like375)veryhighLDL,veryhighHDLandlow
triglycerides;atidealweightandactive,nosignsofinsulin
resistance).IhadreadafewarticlesbyGaryTaubeson
sugar/simplecarbsandtheyareverydifficulttofault,andthena
weekagoIranacrossDr.PeterAttiassite.Ivegenerallyavoided
nutritionblogsbecauseeveryoneseemstohaveapreformed
opinionandalldataismoldedtofitsuch(muchlikesomeofthe
commentsinthissection).Whatcaughtmeaboutyoursite,Attias
andsomeothersishowevenhandedyougenerallyare.Iamquite
intellectuallycurious(Ihavebeenaccusedofhatingconventional
wisdom)andIhavebeenamazedathowlittleevidencethereisfor
thelowfatdietshealthbenefit,orthehighfatdietsdanger
(notwithstandingsomefellownamedRichardsopinions).Mygoal
isnothealthmaximization,buttruthmaximization,sothatIand
otherscanmakedecisionsbasedonthebestscienceoutthere.I
mightdecidetoeatmorehealthysoIcansneakafewmorecigs
withlessguilt,afterall.Idalsoliketohaveasolidenough
understandingofbothnutritionandbloodchemistrytomake
reasoneddecisionsaboutmyownhealthcare,primarilytheuseof
pharmaceuticalstocontrolcholesterol.Idontwanttohearnever
andIdontwanttohearalwaysfrompeoplewhosemotivationsI
distrust,orwhodonthavetheintellectualchopstoreally
understandthecurrentstateofscientificresearch(speakingofthat
Attiafellowissomethingelse!).Ifnothingelse,youandDr.Attia
havetaughtmehowtocriticallyreviewepidemiologicalstudiesin
ordertoformmyownopinions.Honestly,Ivereadthemedia
reportsfortheseforyears,screamingcorrelationisnot
causation!!!Thankyou,andIlookforwardtoyourfuturework.Id
alsoliketoaddthatIamunbelievablyimpressedwithyour
willingnesstotakeontheintellectualestablishentinitsownliving
222/233
11/20/2014
roomasanoutsider.Theworldhastrulychanged,andforthe
better,suchthatbrilliantandhardworkingoutsiderscan
legitimatelydoso.Ihopeyouhaveathickskin!
Reply
17032013
Theskinnyonlard,andhowtorenderit|Hearth(11:31:29):
[...]Pricefoundationisawealthofknowledgeabouttopicssuchas
this.AlsobesuretocheckouttheRawFoodSOSblogforamore
scientificapproachonbreakingdownthelipid[...]
Reply
24032013
Paul(05:31:42):
ExcellentExcellent,excellent,Ithoroughlyenjoyedreadingthispost
Reply
27032013
arsath(19:10:07):
youareamazing!!!Thanksfortheinfo
Reply
1042013
PaulS(14:53:16):
IwouldhighlyrecommendgoingtothePlantPositive.comwebsite.
HedoesmorethanjusthighlightsomemisconceptionsaboutKeys
,hepresentsafullhistoricalandscientificbasisforKeys
significantandgroundbreakingresearch.Thecontroversyoverhis
researchisessentiallyfabricated.Thediscussionisincredibly
compellingandeasytoabsorb.
Reply
1042013
FYH:EatEggsForBreakfast|CocktailsandCommunion
(21:17:50):
[...]andkickspuppies!Checkyourcorrelationatthedoor,Isay,
andcheckoutthisandthisandthis.Inanutshell,dietary
cholesterolisntreallylinkedwithcholesterollevelsAT[...]
Reply
3042013
GiuseppeBrauch(21:17:08):
Bonesareconstantlyvaryingwiththetimesandthereforeoldbones
arereplacedinsteadbynewones.Withthegrowthinactualage,
yourbonesbeginningtobuildupfragile.99percentofphysique
calciumiskeptinyourbones.Calciumisextremelyvitalitis
employedbyhumanbodyforeffectiveworkingofyourmusclesor
223/233
11/20/2014
evenneuralsystem.Weprimarilyjustacquirecalciumfromour
mealorpossiblyotherstuffweconsumeduetothefactphysique
neverproducecalciumindependently.Toolittleavailabilityof
calciumwillmeansystemwillprobablymakeuseofthebones
calcium.Justasfemalegrowsoverthirty,bodysystemwillstart
droppingthebonemassmorequicklywhencomparedwiththe
frequencyofonwhichhumanbodysubstitutesit.Thisraisesthe
threatofgettingaffectedbyOsteoporosis.Theladiesaremore
inclinedtobeimpactedpriortoadultmalesseeingthattheirbones
aresmallerinsizeaswellasthinnerthanmales.`
Mycurrentwebsite
<http://www.healthmedicinelab.com/isbronchitiscontagious/
Reply
7042013
BeyondBacon:FAQs|PaleoParents(02:15:24):
[...]firstresults,publishedinthelatefifties,highlightedtheproblem
intheUnitedStates.Whatthestudyleftoutwerethemanyother
countriesthatdidntsupportthisthesis.France,forexample,hasa
highfatdiet,butthereisalowincidenceofheartdiseasedeath;[...]
Reply
26042013
TheHeartDiseaseStoryRedux|ApesStandTall(21:21:01):
[...]allthisinterestsyouenoughtolookintoit,DeniseMingerhas
writtenawonderfulreviewofallthis,completewithgraphsand
tablesyouknow,real[...]
Reply
2052013
Gina(06:24:06):
Whatamaterialofunambiguityandpreservenessofvaluable
knowledgeconcerningunpredictedemotions.
Reply
2052013
ee.forumify.com(15:44:09):
Hellothere!DoyouuseTwitter?Idliketofollowyouifthatwould
beok.Imdefinitelyenjoying
yourblogandlookforwardtonewposts.
Reply
2052013
treeservicesinchalfont(19:02:36):
Hmmitseemslikeyoursiteatemyfirstcomment(itwasextremely
224/233
11/20/2014
Hmmitseemslikeyoursiteatemyfirstcomment(itwasextremely
long)soIguessIlljustsumitupwhatIwroteandsay,Im
thoroughlyenjoyingyourblog.Iaswell
amanaspiringblogwriterbutImstillnewtothewholething.Do
youhaveanytipsforbeginnerblogwriters?Idgenuinely
appreciateit.
Reply
2052013
windowsinfresno(19:55:13):
Hithere!Quickquestionthatscompletelyofftopic.Doyouknow
howtomakeyoursitemobilefriendly?Mysitelooksweirdwhen
browsingfrommyiphone.Imtryingtofindatemplateorplugin
thatmightbeabletocorrectthisproblem.
Ifyouhaveanyrecommendations,pleaseshare.Withthanks!
Reply
16052013
TokokooTheme(06:01:10):
Ohmygoodness!Incrediblearticledude!Thankyou,HoweverIam
experiencingproblemswithyourRSS.
IdontknowthereasonwhyIcantsubscribetoit.Isthereanyone
elsehavingidenticalRSSissues?
Anyonewhoknowstheanswerwillyoukindlyrespond?Thanks!
!
Reply
25052013
#3:(12)StratosSphere
(12:51:08):
[]http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/thetruthaboutancelkeys
weveallgotitwrong/[]
Reply
26052013
dottedsun(19:57:32):
http://www.epi.umn.edu/cvdepi/pdfs/Keys,%20Atherosclerosis,%20A%20Problem%20in%20Newer%
Reply
26052013
gager(20:18:28):
Isthereapoint?Thereporthasbeenthoroughlydebunked.
Reply
26052013
dottedsun(20:13:43):
225/233
11/20/2014
Thedietand15yearsdeathrateintheSevenCountriesStudy:
http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/nhk14e00/pdf;jsessionid=C047EC741F2FBDB8DD0FE477C7975692.t
Reply
26052013
gager(20:27:24):
Anotheropiniononheartdisease.
http://www.sott.net/article/242516Heartsurgeonspeaksouton
whatreallycausesheartdisease
Reply
26052013
ChrisSEA(20:33:00):
Thegreatironyhereisthat,asthearticlepointsout,itslikelya
veganproduct,allthevegetableoilswidelyconsumedinthe
typicalAmericandiet,attheheartofheartdisease.Denisehasalso
pointedoutthatanotherveganproduct,wheat,hasanassociation
withheartdiseasefromtheChinaStudydata.
Reply
28052013
Novella(01:00:21):
isactuallythewatersupplyeasilyreadyandalsonotcrampedfor
pouringdrinkingwaterinto?
Istrulythepotaloneeasytoslipatandadditionally
fromtheunit?Willthecoffeebasketeliminateconveniently?
Aretheareaswhichwantexclusiveoccasionalscrubbingveryeasy
toextendto?
.allthesecoffeemakers,althoughconsumersarelessacquainted,
supply
somethingmanyforcoffeeenthusiasts,regardlessof
whetherthroughthesheertypeofcoffeestylesandalsoflavors
availableforpodmachines,and/orpastplanet
tastesdeveloped.
Reply
11072013
Abigfatlie:Whythelowfatdogmaneedstodisappear(23:24:51)
:
[]afairlylongstoryandonethatyoucanreadinanumberof
placesincludinghere,here,andhere.Butinanutshellamanbythe
nameofAncelKeysputforththehypothesisthat[]
Reply
226/233
11/20/2014
21072013
MicheleMartinez(16:26:12):
Ihaventreadthroughthecommentssection,soIdontknowif
anyonehasaddedthesethoughtsyetornot,butIfelttheywere
relevanttothediscussion:
1)AncelKeyshimselfdiedat100yearsofage.Whileherefusedto
attributeittohisdietduetolackofastudyfollowing5000people
onthesamediet,IamcurioustoknowatwhatageYerushalmyand
Hilleboedied?
2)Asforallcausesofdeath,youbrieflymentioninfectious
diseasesbutdoesthisclassificationalsoincludehomicides,suicides,
andaccidents?Wouldntthatalsoskewthesestatistics?
3)AncelKeysdidsaythatdietarycholesterolwasnotcorrelated
withbloodcholesterol,buthealsoattributedittodietarysaturated
fatwhichcausedthelivertomanufactureitsowncholesterol.
Saturatedfatisinbothvegetable(avocados/coconuts)fatsaswellas
animal.
Reply
14082013
Trimyourtriglyceridesandloweryourcardiovascularrisk:too
manyofthesefatsinyourbloodmayraiseyourheartdiseaserisk,
butwisefoodandAnarticlefrom:MensHealthAdvisor
WWW.DBESTREVIEW.COM(08:24:19):
[]TheTruthAboutAncelKeys:WeveAllGotItWrong|Raw
FoodSOS[]
Reply
22082013
DismantlingtheDietIndustry:DominicMunnellyPersonal
Training(06:39:52):
[]DeniseMingerwroteagoodpieceaboutthisherealso[]
Reply
7092013
ChristophDollis(00:26:26):
ThanksforpresentingamorebalancedportrayalofAncelKeyes
workthanhasbeenpresentedbymostinthePaleoblogosphere.Its
goodtoseeanobjective,fairlook.
Reply
7092013
ChristophDollis(00:27:57):
*Keys
227/233
11/20/2014
Reply
13092013
BaconGoodBadorUgly?LeannessLifestyleUniversityBlog
(20:42:25):
[]disease.Sowheredidtheideathatsaturatedfatisevilcome
from?AwelldoneresearchpiecebyDeniseMingerstartsoffvery
[]
Reply
14092013
StaceysCorner(00:51:48):
[]hemadeeveryonebelievethatitwasagoodidea,andthatwas
averybadthingtodo.ThatmanwasAncelKeys.AncelKeyswasa
physiologistfromMinnesotaandfamousforhisdevelopmentofthe
[]
Reply
17092013
SummaryofCholesterolresearch|DanielsBlog(00:02:15):
[]thebestsummaryofinterpretingAncelswork,givenlater
publishedcritiquesbyYerushalmyandHilleboe,isbeautifullycited
inthisblogpost.Shegetsmyfullrespectforawonderful[]
Reply
23092013
5WaysVegetableOilsHurtYourHealthJUSTLikeGluten
(05:11:51):
[]mythhasbeenthoroughlydebunked,yetwerestillsuffering
theconsequencesofthescare.Infact,itsstillbeing[]
Reply
7112013
LoriPickering(06:21:43):
Iamcuriousifyouhaveresearchedaconnectionbetweenthe
timingofthepopularityofKeysstudyandtheintroductionofhigh
fructosecornsyrup.
Reply
12122013
WhyTheAustralianHeartFoundationisdoinguswrongThe
UrbanEcolife|TheUrbanEcolife(04:10:18):
[]releasedhisstudyapparentlylinkingsaturatedfattoheart
disease.Notonlywasthisstudylaterfoundtobebasedoncherry
pickeddata,itsscientificallybeenproventobedoingmoredamage
[]
Reply
228/233
11/20/2014
31122013
Peter(08:19:06):
ThankyouDenise,Iverymuchenjoyedyourarticleanditsindepth
analysis.IdohaveonequestionrelatingtoKeys22countrygraph.I
amfindingithardtoreconcilethediscrepanciesinthedata.
IsraelsfatintakeisaboutthesameasFranceandsomeoftheSouth
Americancountries,butitsincidenceofmortalityismorethan400%
higher.
Similarly,FatintakeinEuropeansisverysimilartoNorthAmerica
butmortalityrateislessthanhalf.
Theseareclinicallyverylargedifferences.
Theotherfactoristheactualincidenceofheartdiseaseandits
mortalityrate,whichmaybemoretellingthantheabsolute
mortality.
Youranalysisisinsightfulandthoroughandmostinformative.The
otherinterestingfactorinthispuzzleistheroleofepigeneticswhere
expressionofgenescanbemodulatedbydiet.Thereisonegroup,in
particular,inwhomalowfatdietleadstoanincreaseinsdLDLC
whereasaMediterraneanmoderatefatdietactuallylowerstheir
LDLC.Withalltheseconfoundingfactorsitisdifficultto
definitivelyidentifymyths.
Inthepresenceofafamilyhistoryofheartdiseaseahighcholesterol
issaidtobegroundsforstatins.However,Iamnotawareofany
goodevidencethatshowsloweringcholesterolinthisgroup
actuallyalterstheiroutcome.Isuspectthatitisthefamilyhistory
(genetics)thatisrelevantratherthantheircholesterol.
Thankyouonceagainforyourthoughtfulinsights.
Reply
5032014
Chris(22:51:51):
Seemstomethedisparitybetweenthecountriesyoumentioned
showsthattheremanybeotherfactors,notfat,causingthedisease.I
recallthatsugarwasalsocorrelated,inthesamedata,withheart
disease,ifnotmoresocorrelated.Ibelievethatasnationsbecome
wealthier,andthusconsumemorefat/proteinfromanimals,they
alsoconsumemuchmoreprocessedfoods.Ibelieveitistherefines,
processedjunkcausingthedisease,notthefat.
Reply
229/233
11/20/2014
8032014
eeenok(03:20:28):
youpropagateYerushalmyandHilleboesstatementuncritically:
SincenoinformationisgivenbyKeysonhoworwhythesix
countrieswereselected[forhisgraph],itisnecessarytoinvestigate
theassociationbetweendietaryfatandheartdiseasemortalityinall
countriesforwhichinformationisavailable
ithinkitmightadvancethediscussionifyouactuallyreadKeys
paper,whereheclearlyexplainshisselectionprocess.eventhough
itmightincludelessdetailsthanyoumightwant,theY&Hclaimis
falseatfacevalue
Reply
28032014
ColinStone(10:49:43):
Averyindeptharticle.Itisalwaysinterestingtofindoutbothsides
toastoryandtolookatdatafromanaturalpointofview.Good
stuff.
Reply
17052014
Ron(21:12:28):
OnethingIdonotunderstandisthis..
IfstatinsandotherCholesterolproductioninhibitorsaretaken(and
theyAREknowntobeeffective[imnotsayingitsgood!]in
inhibitingcholesterolproductioninthehumanbody)ANDeating
animalfoodwithcholesteroldoesNOTendupwiththatcholesterol
inthebloodstream,howcomepeoplewhotakestatinsanddoeat
animalsSTILLhavecholesterolintheirbody,asopposedto
dangeriouslyVERYlowlevelsofcholesterol?
Myfatherforexample,tookstatins,whilehisdietincludesmeat,
poultry,fish,eggsandmilk..yethischolesterolwasstillhigh.where
didthecholesterolcomefrom?IsisclaimedthatstatinsareNOT
reallyinhibitingcholesterolproduction?
Reply
20052014
bernard(04:16:52):
HiDenise,Thankyouforthearticle.
HaveyoulookedintowhofundedtheseCholesterol/HeartDisease
research?
IhearditwasCriscoCookingoilandtheirilksthatfundedAncel
KeysandNikolajAnichkov.Isthistrue?
Thanksagain
230/233
11/20/2014
Reply
18062014
Rayca(21:02:30):
Doesntmatterhowthefukinscienceisinterpreted.
Cause/correlation/whatever.Thegobblygookchangeswiththe
(fart)wind,anyway.Thiscountryalonewilldoubleinanother70or
soyearsandtherewillneverbeenoughproteintogoaround.There
wontbeenoughfossilfueltoirrigate.BUTitwillbealoteasierto
gmoplantsthantocloneanimals.BonApetit.
Reply
19062014
waynegage(10:29:39):
actuallyitisplantagriculturethatisnotsustainablebutruminant
andfarmanimalswillfeedusuntiltheend.
Reply
29062014
ModernScience(01:58:27):
iparticularlylikethepartwhereallscientificendeavoursince1960
isexcludedfromtheconversation!!
Reply
29062014
GeorgeHenderson(04:04:28):
JustdissectedastudyonSFA,cholesterol,animalfatandIHDinUK
1980sthatrunsthesamewayasKeysandhiscriticsusinga
vegetarianvolunteergroup(whoshouldhavehadallthe
advantages)andfriendsandfamilyascontrols;strongassociations
betweencholesterol,SFA,animalfatsandIHD.
BUT
Strongprotectiveassociationsbetweenthesethingsandallother
causesofdeath,withNOnetchangeinmortalityatallassociated
withtheseriskfactors.
http://hopefulgeranium.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/epidemiologycan
beinteresting.html
Herewedonothaveecologicalfallacy.Thestudywasbiasedto
favourthevegetarians,whowereallowedtovolunteer(oroptout),
andwhoweremotivatedhealthnutscomparedtocontrols.
Reply
20092014
timtak(07:04:40):
Thanks!IhadbeenfooledbythepaleobsthathadKeysforaliar.So
231/233
11/20/2014
Thanks!IhadbeenfooledbythepaleobsthathadKeysforaliar.So
whatifhetrimmedthedatatoafewcountries.Manyresearchersdo
thisespeciallywhentheythinkthatthecountrieswillinteresttheir
audience,andespeciallywhenthetrendwasinthefulldataset.
Andthanksforthefullsetofcorrelations.Carbsarentasbadas
meat,andvegetablesaretheanswer!
Reply
28102014
ConorHeffernan(09:45:50):
RebloggedthisonPhysicalCultureStudyandcommented:
Justanincredibleblogpostaboutoneofthemostimportantstudies
behindAmericasfearofdietaryfat.
Reply
29102014
Herbivore(13:40:39):
Morebroadandthorough?Youmeantmorebiasedand
dogmaticmethinks.
Reply
30102014
waynegage(21:18:57):
Pleaseexplainthemechanicsofabiasedanddogmaticmathematics.
Reply
5112014
heidrunschaller(17:15:57):
IthinkthefactthatAncelKeyslatershiftedhisblamefromALLfat
tosaturatedfatonlymayhavesomethingtodowiththefactthathe
tooktheYerushalmipapertoheart.Apparently,throughoutthe
1950s,hemaintainedthatallfatwasbad.Hisshifttowardthe
Mediterraneandietandplantoilsoccurredlater.
Reply
CreateafreewebsiteorblogatWordPress.com.TheFreshyTheme.
Follow
FollowRawFoodSOS
232/233
11/20/2014
BuildawebsitewithWordPress.com
233/233

The Truth About Ancel Keys

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11/20/2014

this part is the most interesting of all, and well examine it in

Curiously, instead of rolling around on the floor possessed by fat

Curiously, instead of rolling around on the floor possessed by fat

classifying practices in the decades between, so this graph should be

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