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Interviewer: Ed Janus
Interviewee: Dr. Anthony Evers

Putting this on and I'm going to ask you what's on your mind.

What's on my mind. __ are playing like horseshit __ I was somewhat surprised

that the reaction to our press release and stuff was so __ It wasn't much
there.

Disinterest, not interest.

Yeah. __ stuff in the market __ push back from schools and people are
saying, "Oh my God, you're making a school for __ I had personally heard
nothing. I think some people pardon me if I'm -- people asking questions but
we have bigger outbreaks of anger for __

Did people think it was a theoretical thing or that --

No. I mean I think they get it __ report cards and test scores are going to look
a lot worse. I hope I can contribute to the fact that __ and others have been
talking about this __ for six months and they expected it __
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I know what you mean __ I can't remember. It's probably in the state journal
and it was definitely muted and it didn't strike me that they didn't get it.
They didn't say, "Oh my God. We're not as cool as we thought we were."

It was kind __ but it kind of not and I think once we put real data __ then
people say, "Oh, this is bad," or not as good as it should be.

We will __

Yeah. When schools are identified as underperforming and when you know
your test scores __ on this. __ they could take it and extrapolate it and figure
it out but --

It struck me that it seemed that this was a series of articles more or less
about the __ and that maybe __ technical adjustment.

It could be. It could be.

__

But anyway I guess that's good. I don't know. I'd rather have people thinking
about it __
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What was your purpose in __ What did you hope?

I hope people will say __ it's about time __ and I think by and large school
people but not allowed much __ the __ Journal had a couple articles __ one
last weekend and one weekend before but I just anticipate a lot more angst,
a lot more angst and maybe people are ready or maybe it's not going to hit
them until next spring when students actually get their scores for the next
test and parents __ Oh my God my kid __ no, __ she's not. Why now __ we're
essentially backfilling the new cut scores. We're taking it on this last year's
test, the test year before it. We went back about five years so that we could
still see whatever going or not going but -- so it might be that it __ in __ it
didn't apply towards the test that's going to be taken this next school year. __
the test results aren't really released until spring because it takes too long to
score.

So you think maybe if little Johnny comes home scoring worse than
somebody in Alabama, that's going to cost __

__ indeed. Indeed.

I mean __ because there was comparison that it seemed demuted I should

say I mean it just didn't -Page | 3

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I think I mentioned this last time. This whole topic is extremely complex and
it's hard to talk about the __ it's just too complex for newspaper.

And __ seems like such a technical aspect rather than --

Right.

So to me, it seems to me the real story would be Wisconsin __ as I thought it

was

Right

But that didn't come through at all.

Not much, no.

So is that the story you'd like to tell them?

That's a good question. I don't know how __ I've already told.

Unless _

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We're not as good as we thought we were. __ than we get into __ forever?

That's not the answer you want.

But isn't the answer that you took steps by getting this labor because you
knew __

Absolutely. We knew this was going to happen sooner or later seven years
ago actually. It's interesting. The little known fact around how the present __
and it's a real complex, technical process but basically you're bringing a
whole bunch of people, teachers, and you give them test questions. You say,
"How many of your kids could answer this question correctly?" And they do it
- -they're very sophisticated technical way but when this was done, I think it
was my first year as Deputy __ that was 1_ years ago or even more -- no, 11
years ago. We brought in teachers from -- a lot of teachers from Milwakee,
lots of teachers from Miluakee.

__ overrepresented it?

I'd say so, yeah. And the idea was to make sure that we were being fair to all
kids in the state __ and my guess is that we had an overabundance of
teachers from urban areas and lesson learned here might be that no
expectations for kids.

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Yeah. And maybe I mean realistic low expectations in that they should have
expected more from their kids and so that could be a lesson learned but
there was an overabundance of MPS and __ teachers.

Are there any debate in the department about __ should use or use some
sort of outside the state curriculum?

Not really. I mean most states do it this way. But overtime because __ scores
and state scores were so divergent they made changes.

That's where you are now.

Well yeah where we continually argued that our process __ process was
technically correct. There was no reason to believe it wasn't so that's that.

How far off the mark were these __ from __

I don't want to say __%. __ technically correct. Say for example our present
test scores indicate that __% are advanced to proficient. __ 6_%. 8_% to 6_%
__ that's __% more than that.

It's a big drop.

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It's a big drop. __ trying to __ So that's significant. __ hit the fan __ more so
displaying when __ brings his test scores home which is interesting. With our
kids, I don't ever remember seeing or being concerned about standardized
tests. Never. This wasn't in my world __ when I was an educator.

It doesn't count to the kids future.

Right __ I was concern about their grades and things like that but I don't ever
remember seeing a standardized test score but at least __ it's quite common
now __ those test scores to home. My guess is a testing company probably
has a little __ be my guest.

I don't think that the big human c__

Yeah. Yeah.

How great __ do you think there is between sort of the comfort parents get
when the kids bring home Bs or A+ and their actual achievement relative to
__

That is interesting __ that question because I was at a session a year ago

where marketing person speaking. And she was saying this whole globally
competitive thing has no value as far as a message. If you're saying I want
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our kids to be globally competitive, blah blah blah, she said the message
that people resonate to is regionally equal or equity in a region __ How close
is Verona scores to __ or to __. or __ . I think that's interesting because I
generally think it's correct. I mean most people don't have globl experiences.
Most people __ care that __ China. I think this expert was right. I don't think
most people care about global __ so therefore the answer to your question, I
think when a parent sees -- gets a B they'll wonder well is this B, how's that
compared to a Chinese child at the same age? I don't think so.

Definitely __ don't you think to our business leaders?

I don't about either.

I'd be interested in knowing if it's true what you said. It sounds sort of
intuitive __ but now with all __ global __ and we see Chinese students at the
university taking over. I mean I don't know __

Yeah. I don't know either but when I talk about -- when I hear complaints
around equity and things being equal, it's never about a global worldview.
The whole open enrollment in Wisconsin which is we have ___ kids across the
state of Wisconsin that opened __ to di__ and that competitiveness, that is
much more prevalent in __

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__ But don't you think that the parents who decide __ are thinking I'm
preparing my child to a better future not in the __

Yeah. But --

__

I just don't know __

I have an international education council and it's a sort of interesting group

of people I love meeting within a couple of times a year but __ just a really
different group. They're not the regular Wisconsinites frankly. I think we're
pretty __ in our view.

Would you like to __ a bit?

Yeah. We try. Now __ I mean, international studies is not really a topic that
schoolers _ world languages, even though everybody __ do have some kind
of a world language program. __ top priorities __. We're pretty __ here in
Wisconsin I think. That's why the question is __ same here as it was in
Alabama. I think it's more concerned about whether it's __ school.

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Yeah. I mean again, would you like again __ Wisconsin is __ don't __ and so __
what can you do __

That's about __ we __ conferences. Unless we're going to require a certain

level of foreign language proficiency __ graduate from high school or require
educational education as part of social science curriculum. Unless we
mandate something, __ and that isn't enough. I mean my predecessor is
really big in the inter __ I got to see any --

Nothing happened.

Not much. I mean the people are kind of hanging on the edges __ good
energy __ energized for a while and then they follow in.

But how did __ the whole career of college readiness, doesn't that envision a
tremendous amount of competition in the world or __ it's a competitionbased thing.

It's not directly. It clearly -- __ college readiness has been only defined __ by
ACT, the testing company. Their view is that if __%, if you score a certain
level on the ACT in the four areas of the test, __% of those students __ will
get a C or better in interlevel __ college or technical college course. That's
the basic definition. Whether that's a good definition or not, I don't know but
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that's the basic thing. How that translates to competitiveness in an global

viewpoint, that's far removed from that basic __ --

From that measure.

From that measure, yeah.

But __ maybe you haven't tried to sell it to parents, yeah?

Not much.

No. I mean __

Well, yes. In other __ board has an Auditory Board across the state, we'll be
putting together some sort of this documents at the local schools __ as __ it's
probably __ but yeah. We've developed talking points with them and we will
be probably doing a video of that sort of thing. Yeah. It's going to be
interesting, buddy. __ the end analysis is __ better careers, better workers
where we'll __ able to compete globally but that's down the road and frankly I
am concerned about the notion that the message around global
competitiveness is not a strong message that people don't resonate to it.

You would think -- I mean, who knows __

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Yeah.

But you think the kids are not going to get a job, the job is a good job that
they got to realize that there is somebody taking those jobs.

Yeah. That's a tough song. I mean that is something that people don't get. I
mean, the business community -- I __ company __ Australia and people get
pissed about that. __ say we have to compete with Australia, they're going to
say, why the hell are you taking those jobs to Australia? It's more of a kind of
need your corrections. But it's changing some but it's a slow change.

But how much of what you mean is the public? It's the legislature. __ any
educators, I'm sorry. So to get the public for a while, how's it going __ for the
legislature?

That's a little better. That's a little better. They tend to -- Republicans

standardized a little better because we're closely connected. We're business
community -- is connected in that pretty much. I think that __ pretty well with
the legislature. I'm not saying Democrats __ I __ constituents. It isn't that.

So does it make sense to go out on a campaign to say that Wisconsin isn't as

good as it thinks it is?
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Yes. But it has to be couched from an elected official's point of view. It has to
be couched not as good as we thought we were and this is why we're doing
to correct and __ myself on this issue but we can certainly __ around this is
what these test scores mean. This is what we have to do to move forward as
a state.

What would you be doing __?

Commit suicide __ suicide?

Well, willing to stand up and take the shot. __ really the most important
things __.

Yeah. I'm really against the death penaly __

In general. I don't think there's anything that really could bring me down. But
we have to find ways and we haven't __ we used to close the achievement
gap between African-American kids and __ Hispanic kids and their white
peers. That's a huge issue and I'm not sure __ defeating the State
Superintendent I'm not sure is going to fix that. It's a complex problem and
we talked a lot about that all the time. We just don't have a good answer for

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it. I __ so I supposed that's something that is really near and dear to my heart
but I don't have a good answer for it.

__ somebody who __ for example __ the best teachers __ making and __

things that they do __ suggestions of the

Yeah. I think it could have an effect. I think there's ways of doing that in the
present system.

__

At the tipping point but in Miluakee you can get -- I think it's a state-funded
program as I remember it. We use it so seldom. If you're a __ certified
teacher and you're teaching in school that has high high high poverty, you
get extra money. __ five grand or something like that. The only thing that's
happened now that the people that we're already there __ 5___ more. There
hasn't __ the floodgate of people coming __ so I don't know what their tipping
point is __ could be __

Anyway, we could do that now. We could give back to now. I just don't know.
__ the conditions in some of those schools are so bad. I'm not even sure
twenty thousand would do it.

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How much -- speaking of which __ How much do you think is __ from _ and __
this sort of culture the parents, the history of these children or the deficits __
for how much __ whatever you think they could do __ will matter?

That's a great question. I wish I had the __ figures in front of me but people
have done quantitative studies around that and looking at issues I think the
major factor is whether the mother graudated from high school, a family
issue. __ environmental issue and then you go into the school settings and I
think the number is 1_%

__ best score could improve typical kids by 15%. Is that enough would you
say over two-three generations?

I don't know. And so we have to -- I mean that is not to say that that 15% will
always remain 15%. We want to expand that to 5_% or 6_%.

Again which I'm getting at. 15% meaning that's the contribution that the
school make?

We can increase that. That's not a static number.

It's not. No.

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__ reduce poverty __ literacy programs for adults and that sort of thing. That
factor might change also.

You're saying at this point, the school is only at 15%?

It's something like that __

That is a good one. But you think it could be drastically improved?

Yeah/. We have to believe it.

We have to believe. We have to push.

Or we give up or we just have to close the schools. So yes, __ higher __

resources but time -- __ time is an issue. In Milwakee, they have a good
summer school program __ it's a lot better than it used to be __ out of 8___.
How can you make a difference? Time is a huge factor. It could s__ a lot of
issues.

Are __ that is a question but how successful are they? But do you think that
they __ black kids? I mean, pretty fundamental __ I mean, __

__
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the way we do school.

I don't know because the only alternative right now is homeschooling or high
use of technology and all that sort of thing and I'm not sure that's an answer
for our kids __ high poverty. In fact, that's illogical. I think you have to take
babysteps and increase the time. Increase the rigor. Have higher
expectations __ to __ expectation. But no, if there was a good answer, we
would have it. I'm playing dumb here but I'm playing dumb because I don't
have the answer because I don't think it has been one __

And __ alternatives to __

No. There is a -- I mean __ the __ something like that. __ school year __

In Kansas?

In __ yes. So it's essentially __ on __. the __ is it doesnt really do school much

different but what it does __ starts supporting families from birth and __ pass
12 __ it supports kids and __ like this huge web of support __ social support
and I think that's legitimate but somewhat unattainable. I mean do they get
a square block of New York City and do you expand it to the whole city __ you
don't have money for anything else. So that's the problem.
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But we've been talking for weeks about technical education. And __ technical
education -- let's keep this again for the demograph here. Would do really
great system of technical education. Did that matter? I mean, -- so we've
talked about that. Is that a real alternative __ do academically schooled?

Yes. I think that will make a huge difference. Unfortunately, it's a huge racial
issue in that by advancing career in technical education especially if you're
white of saying, "So __ black kids are smart enough to go to college."

Even though we've talked, no. This is challenging intellectual work.

Yes. We're making some headway there. We're having actually one of the __
next year will be starting -- restarting __ for the first time in __ years. and so,
yeah. There's __ and kind of get over this racial barrier. We have to add some
success stories.

Well, what about __ why __ racial part __

But for years the African-American leaders have been saying, "__" my kids __
and while even __ Milwuakee and he's African-American __ the kids I serve
don't want to be welders __.

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__

I think he is.

I mean, just because he says it doesn't mean it's true.

Right. We're just __ you're talking about it. There are some issues that are so
embedded and raised that it just kind of suck __ from the tree sometimes.
And by the time __ clearly almost committed political suicide on was this
whole issue of having __ take over school board at milwakee and __ I
supported that. African-American community __ they said you're taking away
our right to vote __ and we can't think of anything more filling __ for an
African-American __

Here again though, it's not true.

I know. I know. Yeah, you could be vote for mayor. I mean that was always my
argument.

It's a common knowledge in a city ran by democrats __ that the whole point
is patronage and that the reason to support local government is to support
local patrons __ to get local __ So how __

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And

This was some year ago?

When he was superintendent and now I'm -- the present guy said our kids
are going to be welders __ Superintendent in milwakee don't tell me our kids
can't go to college.

I'd be interested in you revisiting that.

Yeah. I was sometimes. I'm a friend of his. We never talk about this, this
particular issue. But he __ program has a high school, very nsuccessful high
school.

__ school.

No. That's his wife. He's got CEO academy __ small school he probably has a
hudred kids in it. __ they're one of the worst performing schools but there's
no career in technical education in that school. __ I think __campus if I'm not
mistaken. I'm very close to it.

SO there you go. Actually __

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It makes me want to jump out of the college building.

Yeah. It's real frustrating and to some extent, the patronage thing is part of
the problem with the MPS. They're the largest employer of African-Americans
in the community. Their entire -- and I don't begrudge this particular issue
but their __ but their food service is almost blacks and the amount that they
get for __ health insurance is really more than what __ per hour. Their fringe
benefits cost __ because __ any partimer for half insurance.

it's economically easy to argue against that but after years and years __ in
fact a lifetime for remedies __ I'd be concern if they get but it's a huge issue.

It is a huge issue __ and ethnic group took over the schools and it's
patronage which isn't to say necessarily bad __

health insurance if they __

Okay so this is really interesting for me. Let's plot your strategy to a __
support for __ career education. __

The governor --

The governor is so loved in Milwakee -Page | 21

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Yes. But all these committees __ career increase and career in technical
education fundinf. Ther are no questions about it. How we get that into some
of our urban areas that's a whole different __ a pretty robust career in
technical education program. I think mainly because -- Miluakee the school
district and Miluakee technical college are not like close. There are not much
collaboration there. A lot of MPS kids __ going to MATC but they don't do
anything or virtually anything or __ anything like that. To be honest with you,
just from the point of view of location -- I don't know if you've ever been
there, NATC is right downtown which is great but if I was a kid and __ that I
want to __ some kind of educational after high school and you don't want to
do it in downtown Miluwakee, I don't know. I'm not sure __ actually, lot of kids
now from __ go out to __ I think it's okay __

But just to kind of rain on that parade, the President of __ six months ago __
saying __ I wish they would come __ basic message __ She called on MPS for
poorly preparing students and it causes them __ and prepare them __ in the
paper __ stupid on her part it didn't make her look good __

Probably. __ I get frustrated on that because I get frustrated when high

school teachers say that about elementary teachers and elementary
teachers say that about parents. __ and you do the best you can with them.
Don't complain about it. Just do it. If you have kids that are illprepared, then

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prepare them instead of saying send them back or don't come here. That's
just bullshit.

Are you concerned to deflate the college myth? Would you like to attack that
as the major biggest goal for --

Yes. And I have. __ Since the tagline is __ we've been telling our kids a lie for
last generation __ that you're a failure if you don't go to a four-year college.
That's just absolute wrong. I say that all the time. I've written about it and
people get it. They do get it but they don't act on it. They understand it. I
told you the story.

Yeah. If I haven't told you the story -- if __ because it's the most revealing
story __ career technical education test __ nuts. It's a good topic and this one
-- this is the governor's test and here are several really, really, really good
business people __ understand __ They're go-getters. And one of them, he
works in the metal areas. I can't remember what exactly. He's a big __
Aurorra __ and his issues are around medtechs __ not the four-year degree
people. He's concerned about that__ he was saying __ but career in technical
education are frustrating __ message and so on and he says well, __ my -- he
has several, I think three or four kids and one kid, he's like early high school
and he said __ this would be a perfect opportunity. We have some good -- I
can't remember what he was interested in but it was something a career in
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technical education and he said, "Joey would be a perfect apprentice. He

could get into the apprenticeship program. He'd learn __ that he loves and
ladadadada and his wife said __ Joey's going to college. So even in a family
where someone is a leader in this area, when someone is spending time on
the career and college readiness __ can't g__ into that kind of program
because his wife thinks it's diminishing.

It __ social status.

And I hear this __ all the time.

__ black kids, school kids. __ and of the things __ this idea and it's so far
above -- it's just so abstract __ but they don't know college. They don't know
the deans. They don't know what it takes. And so we're perpetually -- this
illusion __.

Absolutely. And every time I go into a high school and I ask, "What are you
going to do next year to kids__

I'm going to go to college and I'm going __ doctor, lawyer, teacher __ doctor
lawyer. Yes. So th__ and we see, "Excuse me," __ just this last weekend and
the weekend before and __ is out there because people are __ tide is turning
a little bit __ system __ saying, essentially, -- he wouldn't __ saying this but
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here was the message. Education isn't necessarily about jobs. It is about
preparing people for life and __ saying everybody should have -- everybody
should be focusing __ so now __ we have this __ messages. But it's
interesting. Because I've been talking on WMC. Everybody's been talking
about the skills gap. __ ust last week. CAP Times, yeah.

Skills gap.

It was the__ once a week paper and huge article and actually it was relatively
-- I expected them to probably attacking. There was some of it. There are fair
amount of people -- about five or six-page article that it just kind of indicated
the skills gap was a myth and that it's a myth perpetuated by businesses so
that they don't have to spend money training __. But that wasn't the majority
of the article. So anyway, what's kind of interesting is that we collectively
have made enough noise around this issue that the pushback is already
coming. __

__

The __ in the CAP Times article talking about __ myth and __ they __ so that's
a huge mountain but it struck a __

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This is __ started in order to promote the practical arts. How about the
parents of kids who are going to law school __ that's crap.

But that's why we have the guts. What makes our __ on th__ test first __ head
of the __ organization and the guy from technical college system and me and
I really try my best to keep the conversation in that committee around career
and technical education __ one is I don't want this governor's council to
become a permanent __ overseer of me. I don't want that. So if I can keep __
and company out of the conversation, it would never become that because
__ technical education __. It's a political thing on that part. And it's also a
realistic one in that my major concern now is carer in technical education
and I don't want them pushing back with this council and kind of mitigating
__ to strong positions __ of it.

__ by implying this notion that education is about something else.

Right. We're going to have that conversation sooner or later __ I wanted that
to be compacted into and I __ time and then people say oh that's crazt __ and
I will be able to move on. Otherwise, if that becomes the whole thing then
that will become -- cause that committee to become dysfunctional.

__ that. I mean that's what you're worried about.

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Yeah, exactly.

I' m going to ask you a question. How much time do you have?

I have about ten minutes __

__ next time. Think about if you could be this guy or if you were a comicbook
hero __ super superintendent _ _and __ superpower and you don't worry
about getting killed __ what would you go after? What would you do? What
would you try to __ decapitate?

__ career in technical education, that would be one. That __ because that

answer is apparent __ obvious __ and we needed the high __ and it needs to
be connected __ states academy. All that stuff are relatively easy __ it's just
getting __ message but in turn the achievement gap __ if I had superpowers I
can change things overnight that would be a certainly another thing but
change because __ _ not tool long after that we'll be a minority white state
at least in __ and if the majority at that point in time still underperforming,
that's a bad deal. I mean that's a bad deal and __ but it's a bad deal when it's
going to be the majority group is going to bring this state in our country to its
knees as it relates to __ world economy and being globally competitive or
surviving. __ these kids up to speed.

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Was there ever a time when the __ education __ do a good job?

Well, I think so.

Do you?

I think so. I think and I can't remember how long __ but I'd say in the __ we
clearly were one of the best __ we still are. Our __ scores are certainly above
average and if you __ how far down we are, we're probably eighteenth or
something like that but we're statistically equal to a whole bunch of those
eighteen. A small movement __ we'd be down. There's just a whole bunch of
states clustered at the same place __ there's a handful at the top. There's a
whole cluster here and then there's all shit low down here. But if I had
superpowers I would be the one to fix. The one that is fixable __ issue alone
are kids being able to be employed when they go up/

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