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THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES

WILDLIFE AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES DIVISION
Meeting of March 10, 2007
FIVE RIVERS DELTA RESOURCE CENTER
30945 Five Rivers Boulevard
Spanish Fort, Alabama
Before the Conservation Advisory Board
Beginning at 9:00 A.M.

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APPEARANCES:
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BOARD MEMBERS:
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Mr. Dan L. Moultrie-Chairman

P.O. Box 188
Verbena, AL 36091
Congressional District 6
Mr. Louis W. Coles
6207 County Road 625
Enterprise, AL 36330
Congressional District 2

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Dr. A. Wayne May

188 County Road 203
Eutaw, AL 35462
Congressional District 7
Mr. James W. Porter, II
215 NO. Richard Arrington Jr. Blvd.
10th Floor
Birmingham, AL 35203
Congressional District 6
Mr. Bill Hatley
639 Estate Drive
Gulf Shores, AL 36542
Congressional District 1
Mr. Gaines Smith
AL Coop Extension Service
109 Duncan Hall

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Commissioner M. Barnett Lawley, Secretary

Department of Conservation
P.O. Box 301450
Montgomery, AL 36130-1450
Mr. Ross M. Self
10419 Highway 180 West
Gulf Shores, AL 36542
Congressional District 1

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Mr. Johnny M. Johnson

1018 54th Street East
Tuscaloosa, AL 35405
Congressional District 7
Mr. W. Grant Lynch
P.O. Box 777
Talladega, AL 35161
Congressional District 3

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Dr. Warren Strickland

930 Franklin Street
Huntsville, AL 35801
Congressional District 5
Mr. George Harbin
1177 Elliott Road
Gadsden, AL 35904-6910
Congressional District 4
Mr. David Dean
Deputy Legal Counsel for the
Alabama Department of Conservation and
Natural Resources
64 North Union Street
Montgomery, AL 36130

Ms. Robin Nummy

Alabama Department of Conservation and
Natural Resources
64 North Union Street
Montgomery, AL 36130

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Also Present:

Corky Pugh
Gary Moody

David Hayden

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I N D E X

P A G E

Invocation. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Presenting of Award . . . . . . . . . . 6

Introduction of Advisory Board. . . . . 7

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Proposed Changes. . . . . . . . . . . . 9

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Motions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

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Proposed Changes. . . . . . . . . . . . 15

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New Business. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61

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Meeting Adjourned . . . . . . . . . . . 78

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CHAIRMAN:

Let the March 10, 2007 meeting

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of the Conservation Advisory Board come to order.

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this time I'd like to welcome everybody to Five

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Rivers, and the Board is glad that you all are able to

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be here today.

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I would also like to recognize past

At

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Commissioner Riley Smith.

The Commissioner and I both

-- I'm sure he's going to recognize you also.

it's good to see you as always.

here.

given by Mr. Johnny Johnson.

Riley,

Glad to have you

The -- the invocation at this time will be

MR. JOHNSON:

Mr. Johnson.

Let us pray.

Dear Heavenly

Father, we thank you for your guidance and leadership

concerning your will and purpose for our State's

Conservation Advisory Board meeting today.

We pray

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that our meeting will be conducted in a manner that

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will bring honor and glory to you.

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Lord, help us to realize and make room for

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the ideas and opinions of others that are different

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from ours.

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that you would bring righteous leaders into the

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forefront of decision-making in the United States and

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give Your wisdom to each of them.

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We thank you for your love.

Lord, we pray

Destroy the strongholds and plans of the

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enemy in this country and for this country.

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protect our military leaders and troops wherever they

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are.

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Father, provide for and protect their families.

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out Your piece upon our nation.

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Spirit, comfort the lonely and strengthen the weary.

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Please

We partition you, Lord, for their safety.

Pour

Through Your Holy

Please be with us as we return to our homes

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today.

amen.

Thank you, Father.

CHAIRMAN:

In Jesus' name we pray,

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

For

the next order of business, I'd like to call on

Commissioner Barnett Lawley to introduce the

Conservation Advisory Board.

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

Good morning.

Before I do that, I want to thank Jim Griggs in the

Lands Division for Five Rivers, this facility in which

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we're meeting.

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Delta Resource Center, and it's getting a -- it's very

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popular in the Baldwin/Mobile County areas.

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We're very excited about it.

It's the

It's getting a lot of use, and we haven't

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even officially opened, but we appreciate their

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efforts and what they've done to allow us to meet here

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today.

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Before I allow everybody to introduce

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themselves, I'd like to call on Bobby Huffaker and

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Sergeant Ronald Harris.

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for just a minute.

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If you all would come up here

On May 21, 2006, Sergeant Ronald Harris

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stopped a boat on Lake Harding for a safety

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inspection.

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citation for equipment violation, Sergeant Harris

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observed the boat leave the scene and strike a wake to

After completing that stop and issuing a

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a passing boat.

The impact of the wake caused the vessel

to overturn, throwing two of the passengers in the

water.

patrol boat to a position where he could assist the

victims, and because of throwing life preservers out

because of Sergeant Harris noticing the passenger was

having difficulty swimming and was rapidly becoming

exhausted, although he threw the passenger the life

Acting quickly, the Sergeant maneuvered his

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jacket, she was unable to use it due to her

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exhaustion.

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Sergeant Harris managed to maneuver his

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patrol boat alongside the passengers where he was able

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to reach her and help her to safety aboard his boat.

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And once he had both victims on the boat, he recovered

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their boat and towed it to the land.

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Sergeant Harris' brave and quick thinking

and skill averted a tragedy on that day in May.
In addition to being made Officer of the

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Year by the Marine Police Division, he is now being

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presented with a Certificate of Accommodation for this

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life-saving effort.

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Congratulations.

(EVERYONE CLAPPED THEIR HANDS AND PICTURES WERE

TAKEN AT THIS TIME.)
COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

We appreciate it.

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As we do in every meeting, we're going to allow, start

with Mr. Hatley on the end to tell you who he is and

what district he represents.

MR. HATLEY:

represent South Alabama District 1.

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MR. SELF:

My name is Bill Hatley.

My name is Ross Self, and I

also represent District 1.

MR. SMITH:

I'm Grant Smith, at large,

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MR. LYNCH:

Grant Lynch, District 3.

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MR. STRICKLAND:

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State wide.

Congressional District 5.

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MR. COLES:

Jim Porter, Congressional

District 6.
MR. JOHNSON:

Johnny Johnson,

Congressional District 7.

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That's Northern Alabama.

Louis Coles, Congressional

MR. PORTER:

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Warren Strickland,

District 2.

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DR. MAY:

Wayne May, Congressional

District 7.

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MR. HARBIN:

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COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

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Moultrie, our Chairman.

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here.

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CHAIRMAN:

George Harbin, District 4.

And, of course, Dan

We appreciate you all being

Thank you, Mr. Lawley.

The

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Minutes for the last meeting were not available yet,

and so we will approve them at the following meeting

in May.

The next order of the business is the

departmental business.

Mr. Lawley again to call on these departments to go

over their business.

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I'd like to call on

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

We're not going to

have the division reports as we did last time.

We

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only do that once every year, but there are some

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business in our old business that the Director would

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like to address from the Marine Resources, Vernon

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Minton.

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Vernon.

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Where is Vernon?

MR. MINTON:

There he is.

Stand up,

Commissioner, Mr. Self is

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going to handle our regulations package.

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turn it over to Ross.

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COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

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MR. SELF:

Okay.

I'm going to

Very good.

These are -- these are some

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recommendations that I want to make for -- regulation

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changes for approval of the Advisory Board today.

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The first one is a proposed change to

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220-3-.03, use of nets and harvest of Mullet.

And --

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and the change is to continue to close all waters in

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the Gulf of Mexico, including Pelican Bay, to the use

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of commercial gill nets around the 4th of July holiday

for the next five years.

And I recommend on that, for that holiday,

that for 2007, the five-day closure will start at

12:01 A.M. on July 3, 2007 through 12:01 on July 9,

2007, which will be a five-day closure.

Also, I propose a change to 220-3-.03, use

of nets and harvest of Mullet and 220-2-.42(4)(b), use

and possession of certain nets, wildlife and

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freshwater fisheries areas, specifically increasing

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the mesh size for the taking of Mullet for roe and

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food fish.

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inch and seven-eighths knot to knot to two inches knot

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to knot for roe Mullet and would be increased from one

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and three-eights inches knot to knot to one and

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one-half inches knot to knot for food fish.

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The mesh size should be increased from an

The next would be a proposed change to

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220-3.03, saltwater fish creel, bag, possession:

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Change recreational bag limit and commercial size

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limit for Red Snapper to conform with federal

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regulations.

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I believe at this time the recreational

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creel limit in federal waters will be two per person

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and the commercial size limit will be thirteen inches.

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The main reason for this change would be just to agree

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with the federal regulations.

Another -- another change to that same

regulation would be saltwater fish creel, bag,

possession and size limits should change Vermillion

Snapper, the minimum size limit, to conform with

federal regulations.

And at this time, the Vermillion Snapper

size limit will be reduced from eleven inches to ten

inches, and this is something the feds have done.

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They say we've got too many Vermillion Snapper.

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You know, I can't question about that, but

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they're reducing -- reducing the size limit.

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need to amend our regulation just to go along with

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them.

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So we

Another one to that same 220-3-.03 is

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saltwater fish creel, bag, possession and size limits.

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This requires that any vessel or individual required

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to possess a federal permit to harvest or retain

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marine aquatic species must possess such permit to

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possess or land such in Alabama.

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Then I think this is the last change

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proposed for 220-3-.25.

That's the commercial taking

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and landing of Red Snapper.

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language to conform with new federal regulations that

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establish individual quota -- quota allocations -- I'm

Change the regulation

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sorry -- individual quota allocations for the

commercial Red Snapper fishery.

make Alabama's regs to conform with the federal

regulations.

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And this is again to

That's all I have.

CHAIRMAN:

Is there a motion to accept

those?

MR. HATLEY:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to

make a motion that we adopt all the recommendations of

Mr. Self.

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CHAIRMAN:

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MR. SMITH:

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CHAIRMAN:

Is there a second?
I second that.
There's a motion and a second

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that we adopt the regulations just read by Mr. Self.

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Is there any discussion on these?

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no discussion, the motion is again to adopt these

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regulations, these proposals just read by Board member

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Self.

(No response)

All those in favor.

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(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

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CHAIRMAN:

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No opposed?

All opposed?

(No response)

The motion passes.

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

I also want to

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welcome past Commissioner Riley Smith.

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him out there right now.

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appreciate you being with us today.

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If

MR. SMITH:

(Pointed out)

Thank you.

I don't see
Oh, okay.

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COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

Now I'll call on

Corky Pugh, the Director of Wildlife and Freshwater

Fisheries.

MR. PUGH:

There are several revisions to

the recommended season and bag limits presented at the

last Board meeting on page five.

asked Mr. Pugh to speak up.)

two revisions for the season and bag limit

recommendations.

(Court reporter

I'm sorry.

There are

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If you look at page five, Lawrence and

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Winston Counties should have been in those hunters

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choice dates; December the 27th through January 1st.

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And on page twelve -- and this is something that was

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done at the recommendation of one of the Board

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members, I believe -- under, "Fox, Coyote and Feral

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Swine, Legal Arms and Ammunition," there's a

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clarification for no buckshot being used in shotguns

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during stalk gun, deer season only.

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CHAIRMAN:

Is there a motion that we adopt

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those recommendations at this time?

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MR. HATLEY:

So moved.

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MR. HARBIN:

I'll make the motion.

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CHAIRMAN:

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UNKNOWN BOARD MEMBER:

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CHAIRMAN:

Is there a second?
Second.

There is a motion and a second

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to the proposals as read by Corky Pugh are adopted to

those regulations.

response)

Is there any discussion?

Being no discussion --

MR. COLES:

CHAIRMAN:

MR. COLES:

There is some discussion.

Mr. Coles.
Are we adopting all of the

seasons here?

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(No

CHAIRMAN:

The ones just so read, just so

read.

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MR. COLES:

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CHAIRMAN:

Just so read?
There being no further

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discussion, there's a motion and a second to pass that

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these proposals be put into regulations.

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favor?

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(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

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CHAIRMAN:

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(No response.)

The motion passes.

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All opposed.

All those in

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

That's all I have,

Daniel.
CHAIRMAN:

The next order of business is

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the public hearing.

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go to the microphone and give your name and the

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subject you wish to speak upon.

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DR. MAY:

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CHAIRMAN:

When your name is called, please

Mr. Moultrie, may I interrupt?

Yes.

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DR. MAY:
season.

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I have a motion on the dove

CHAIRMAN:
business.

We can do it now or as new

Commissioner, which would you rather do?

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

is when it should be brought up.

intended to bring up the bag limits?

MR. PUGH:

Yes.

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

I think new business

That's when you

All right.

I'll remind

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you at the end that you may only speak at the time

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that you're called upon to speak.

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with the speaker will not be tolerated.

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have our list?

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MS. NUMMY:

Robin, do you

There is one in front of

you.

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Yes.

Any interference

CHAIRMAN:

First to speak will be Riley B.

Smith.

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MR. SMITH:

Good morning.

I'm Riley

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Smith.

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Federation, and I'm speaking to you today on behalf of

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the Federation.

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comment.

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of the staff of the Department have done a magnificent

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thing here.

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I'm President of the Alabama Wildlife

Before I do that I have a personal

Commissioner, you, Jim Griggs, and the rest

You should be very proud.

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

Thank you.

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MR. SMITH:

I think this is going to be

such a tremendous jump in all points for ingress and

egress into the Delta, and it's just -- it's good.

We're very proud.

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

MR. SMITH:

Thank you.

I want to focus on one thing

today, and I see you all have a full plate, as you

usually do, so I won't be too long.

everybody is aware, there is public legislation for a

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But as I'm sure

hunting licenses increase.

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I think all of you also are very aware how

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direly this is needed.

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Fishery Division is going to be in very rough shape if

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it's not passed.

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strongly supports this legislation.

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The Wildlife and Freshwater

The Alabama Wildlife Federation

We have talked at length with Commissioner

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Lawley and members of the Department and Corky, and

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understand how critical it is that this legislation

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pass at this time.

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I've had a little experience now with the

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Legislature.

And a revenue measure, even as one like

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this that is needed so badly, will meet some

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resistance.

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they've got plenty of money and we don't need to do

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this.

There's always somebody that says, okay,

This is not going to be an easy bill to pass.

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I know the Commissioner and our Executive

Director met with leadership of both Houses and I

think we've got the support of those leaders.

anything can happen when you get on the floor.

Again, a revenue measure is tough.

needs to be clean.

been presented, and it doesn't need any real

cut-and-paste efforts from the floor.

But

It

It needs to go in there as it has

I would ask you today, because I know that

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the Legislature values the opinion of this Board, to

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pass a resolution and forward it to the Legislature in

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both Houses that the Conservation Advisory Board

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strongly supports the legislation in its present form

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and asks that no amendments be allowed to this

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legislation.

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I think if it gets bogged down, especially

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on the floor, if it gets bogged down with a bunch of

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amendments, you'll lose this bill.

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to pass it.

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this issue when I was Commissioner.

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back then, but we saw it coming.

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dealing with it.

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You won't be able

And, again, this is -- I was aware of

It was a problem

The Commissioner is

If you don't pass this now -- this is the

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first session of the next four years -- if you don't

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pass this now, you probably won't pass it.

So I would

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ask that you all would be -- consider a motion to urge

the Legislature to pass the bills in their present

form and resist any amendments.

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CHAIRMAN:

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Mr. Smith.

The next

speaker will be Mike Colquett.

MR. COLQUETT:

I'm Mike Colquett.

I'm

here today on behalf of the State Chapter of the NWTF.

It's my understanding at your February meeting it was

reported that we had officially endorsed a turkey

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tagging system.

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that is not a correct statement.

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no official action has been taken, so we have not

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officially endorsed that.

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I'm here today to let you know that

CHAIRMAN:

We discussed it, but

Thank you very much.

The next

speaker will be Mr. Don Knight.

MR. KNIGHT:

I'm Don Knight.

I'm speaking

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at this time on -- a lot of folks have just asked me

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to speak on the three-buck limit.

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against that.

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to also recommend that the House Bill 256 on boat

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registration also be included in that recommendation

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from the Board.

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that all hunters and fishermen get out and support,

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call your Legislature to get this increase.

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We're officially

But before I start on that, we'd like

And we would also like to recommend

We know it's needed, and we want to

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support the boat increase, as well as the hunting

licenses increase.

On the three-buck limit, we're basically

against this as it stands right now.

understand how it could possibly be enforced.

think it should be left up to the landowner and the

people leasing the land as to what deer they take as

long as it's inside the biologist's of the State of

Alabama's recommendations.

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We don't
We

If the State of Alabama's recommendation

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from the biologist ever comes down that we need a

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three-buck limit, we will support it one hundred

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percent whole-heartedly.

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questions about how you're going to enforce it.

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are you going to get the tags to the senior citizens

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that don't buy hunting licenses?

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get it to the youth?

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But right now I have some

How

How are you going to

How about the folks that buy a license for

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less than one year?

If the people that are buying

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licenses for one year are limited to three bucks,

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shouldn't they be limited to maybe one buck, one doe,

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period, if you go over this deal?

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should have the same right of three bucks as somebody

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buying a yearly hunting license, whether they're out

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of state or in state.

I don't think they

It doesn't matter if they buy a

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year hunting license if you do that.

We have a situation in a club I hunt with

where we bring the deer in, cut them up, divide the

meat and put it in coolers.

with that without being stopped and checked and how

are we going to prove that we didn't kill that deer as

a buck or as partial meat?

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How are we going to leave

I mean, there is so much here that is

unenforceable.

And, quite frankly, our enforcement

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officers are cut so short now.

We think it would take

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so much away from the enforcement of other things

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that's needed that we just don't see how it would work

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at this point.

That's what I had on that.

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CHAIRMAN:

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next speaker will be Keith Lynch.

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MR. LYNCH:

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Knight.

The

I'm Keith Lynch from Conecuh

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County.

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through with the three-buck limit that it's got its

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good and its bad.

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It's my understanding that if this Board goes

But we're in a situation where we have a

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later rut season.

I don't know why we do.

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like to see the season extended two weeks if possible.

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Most of our deer are -- the bigger bucks are not being

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seen until the season goes out, and too many small

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deer are being killed.

Thank you.

I would

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CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Lynch.

The next

speaker will be Rick Yeager.

MR. YEAGER:

It's good to see the Board members.

all hosting this event and allowing us to come up here

and talk with you.

It's good to see you, Dan.

I appreciate you

I've got several issues to go over, so

I'll just briefly touch on them.

copy of this so that she can get it to each one of

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Robin has made a

you.

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One of the first subjects that I want to

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go over is -- are since they were talking about the

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three-buck limit, the three-buck limit is a very good

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program.

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did a tagging system.

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aware of it and the people police their own out there.

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Tennessee has done for it for years.

They

Every processor in the State is

If they see somebody killing four or five

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bucks, they turn them in.

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increased in numbers on the Boone & Crockett, Kroll

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and Pope&Young scales.

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documents for you guys.

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1995, basically, in Alabama, or before 1995, Alabama

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was the lowest rank state on Pope&Young, Kroll or

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Boone & Crockett.

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But the Tennessee deer have

Some of that information is in

It also shows that since

Since 1995, we've continued to drop down

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to place forty-three.

But the three-point rule on one side will increase the

maturity of the bucks in the State and setting a

three-buck limit is not too stringent.

increase the people to shoot bucks, not that those are

an over-population situation in a lot of places.

our place, I guess we're running about a two-buck to

one-doe population.

does until we get that population up.

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I think Delaware is below us.

It will

In

So we've cut back on shooting any

But we've got a bunch of one-thirty and

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one-forty and one-sixty class bucks running around in

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there.

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too dang hot.

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December, we had ruts the second week, two and-a-half

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-- about a week and-a-half, and then we had ruts in

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January the second and third week, and it was all

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pretty much at nighttime.

The rut problem that we had this year, it was

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You can't control Mother Nature.

In

We had bucks running through the camp

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chasing does.

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terrible season, really, for harvesting nice bucks

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because they did stay in the swamps and didn't run

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until night until it got below that forty degree

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temperature.

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It was quite funny, but it was a

That's when they run.

Supplemental feeding is something that

I want to bring up.

It's not just a request.

It's a

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requirement.

If you notice driving down here from

upstate or since you live here, or if you live in the

South or Southeast, you notice that everything is pine

trees.

I don't know about you guys, but eating

deer that eats nothing but briars and pine trees is

probably not real good.

before we started getting planting systems in, and the

deer meat, of course, is not real good.

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When you lease land, your landowners only

give you a certain amount.

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MS. NUMMY:

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MR. YEAGER:

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MS. NUMMY:

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CHAIRMAN:

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I've killed deer in areas

Time.
Are you cutting me off?
Three minutes.
We'll give you a chance to wind

it up if you want.

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MR. YEAGER:

Okay.

Thank you very much,

18

Dan.

19

requirement because of the amount of hardwood that has

20

been harvested out of the State.

21

Supplemental feeding has become a very big

The land that you lease, the land that

22

you're able to lease, you're only given a certain

23

amount of space for plants.

24

acre section, we're planting twenty acres, and it's

25

being mowed down to the ground.

Out of a fifteen hundred

So we have to do

23
1

supplemental feeding.

We had a program this year, instead of

stopping at season, we ran three stations across the

property.

that will go to it, that will eat for about five

minutes, and then they go on to do their browsing.

They're not going to spend all their time at feeders.

And on camera and film we've got the deer

8
9

And if it was implemented, I would suggest

that it would be for quality deer management, plus to

10

have a minimum of three or four points on one side

11

rule with limits on the bucks.

12

else because Robin is going to shoot me.

13
14

CHAIRMAN:

MR. YEAGER:

MS. NUMMY:

CHAIRMAN:

23
24
25

I've got it, and I'll send it

Okay.

That will be great.

We'll receive that and we appreciate your comments.

21
22

I gave a copy of

out to you all.

19
20

Yes, sir.

it to Robin.

17
18

But there's a copy of all that

information for the Board to look at?

15
16

I can't cover anything

MR. YEAGER:

Thank you very much for

having me.
CHAIRMAN:

The next speaker will be

Mr. James Butler.

MR. BUTLER:

It's nice to meet you all.

24
1

want to bring up the situation about the dogs.

now we're in a situation where it's unsafe to travel

down the road.

hit a deer.

I had a sixty-five hundred dollar claim, and I feel if

we do away with the season, the deer population will

grow until it's just going to make the insurance

companies get involved in this.

Right

You don't know when you're going to

You know, it's happened to me this year.

So if we can keep the gaming laws just

10

like they are right now, that's all we're asking, you

11

know.

12

legitimate complaints, let's investigate those crimes,

13

ticket those people, arrest them if that's what they

14

need.

And if landowners and other people have

15

We're taking a small amount of population.

16

It's just going to ruin it for a larger part of the

17

people that hunt.

18

bad as what people think they are.

19

game laws.

20

to be hard to enforce because people are going to do

21

their own field processing.

22

to the processors.

23

So a lot of dog hunters aren't as

We obey all the

The three-deer game limit, it's just going

Everybody don't take them

What we need to try to do is leave things

24

like they are right now, and if they need to be

25

investigated on any kind of complaints by landowners

25
1

and stuff, let's pursue that instead of just trying to

vote it out for the minority instead of the majority.

That's all I have.

4
5

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Butler.

The

next speaker will be Tim Couch.

MS. NUMMY:

Quiet, please.

MR. COUCH:

Good morning, everybody.

name is Tim Couch.

I hunt deer with dogs.

My

I'm a landowner in Fayette County.

I'm here today to ask

10

everybody to consider leaving dog hunting in Fayette

11

County.

12

landowners, but I know for a fact that there are some

13

outlawed dog hunters out there.

14

an outlaw.

15

I know there has been some complaints from

But everybody is not

I've talked to some people in Marion

16

County, Lamar County where dog hunting has been

17

banned.

18

outlaws they had when dog hunting was in.

19

outlaws, just because you get rid of the good hunters,

20

the only thing that does, that opens up the whole

21

county.

22

They tell me they've still got the same

The

You've got no clubs to control part of it.

You still have got the same outlaw hunters

23

that have got the whole county to themselves.

24

the point I want to make today.

25

time.

That's

I thank you for your

26
1

CHAIRMAN:

MR. HATLEY:

MR. COUCH:

MR. HATLEY:

About how many members do you

have?

8
9

Somewhere around thirty-five

hundred acres.

6
7

Mr. Couch, how much land do

you have on the old Liberty hunting ground?

4
5

Mr. Hatley.

MR. COUCH:

We have forty -- I believe

it's forty-two -- or forty-seven.

10

MR. HATLEY:

And you've got a good hunting

11

club, it sounds like, evidently.

12

you say, do you know these outlaw hunters?

13

MR. COUCH:

Do you -- do you --

Well, I mean, I know they're

14

out there, you know, because I have problems myself on

15

my personal land.

16

away from everybody what -- what -- because of, you

17

know, ten or twelve guys, you know.

18

I know I've heard complaints out of Tuscaloosa County.

19

I don't personally know the people, but, you know,

20

I've dog hunted all my life.

21

out there that want to cause problems that don't lease

22

up enough land to dog hunt.

23

But, you know, I don't want to take

And I'm sure that

There is always a few

You can't blame everybody because of what

24

-- a few people that don't want to get out and do

25

right.

It's kind of like you've got a man that wants

27
1

to drive continuously drunk.

everybody's driver's license because you've got a man

that wants to drive drunk.

MR. HATLEY:

CHAIRMAN:

You can't take

Thank you.
Thank you, sir.

The next

speaker will be Mr. John Dover.

MR. DOVER:

Good morning.

My name is John

Dover.

I'm from Berry, Alabama, in Fayette County.

The first thing is I'd like to thank the Board members

10

who came to our meeting there in Berry on Sunday,

11

February the 18th that Mr. Cook was gracious enough to

12

hold for us all in the county.

13

I'd like to thank Don Knight with the

14

Alabama dog hunters for also attending.

15

good representation of both sides.

16

were expressed, and we had -- we had the tool shed

17

packed out the doors, what is known as the equipment

18

shed.

19

There was

A lot of views

A lot of people from all over the county,

20

a lot of people weren't aware of the problems they

21

were having in one location of the county.

22

like Mr. Couch said; you have outlaw hunters every

23

place you go.

24

enforcement, especially on the game wardens.

25

It was

I understand we were short on law

On behalf of the Fayette County dog

28
1

hunters, I would like to say we would like to support

the referendum here and legislation to increase the

hunting licenses and get some more game wardens, get

more game wardens and get rid of the outlaws that we

have within Fayette County.

But I think it's a localized problem.

have a small county; in the 2000 census, eighteen

thousand four hundred ninety-five people living in

Fayette County.

We

I've presented Robin here with a

10

petition from Fayette County and I'd like the Board to

11

see that it has fifteen hundred names.

12

more this morning in support, you know, of leaving

13

things the way they are in Fayette County.

14

are landowners and these are citizens.

15

community and a small county.

16

I got some

So these

We're a small

There's more people in Northport than

17

there are in all Fayette County.

So, you know, I

18

think that we can work together.

And when we get

19

together in the same fashion as we did in February and

20

talk to each other, that we can resolve a lot more

21

than somebody resolving it for us, just people getting

22

together to resolve it amongst ourselves.

23

thank you all for your time this morning.

24
25

CHAIRMAN:

I'd like to

Thank you, Mr. Dover.

speaker will be Steven Dover.

The next

29
1

MR. DOVER:

Yes, sir.

My name is Steven

Dover.

I'm from Northport, Alabama.

and leaseholder in both Fayette and Tuscaloosa

Counties.

I'm a landowner

In regards to the complaints that have to

do specifically with dog hunting in Fayette and

Tuscaloosa Counties, Officer Sanford told me that, as

far as the northern part of the County, there were

hardly any complaints.

That was his area.

The next

10

day I received a call saying that there were three

11

complaints in Tuscaloosa County.

12

were with dog hunting and there were four arrests.

13

Specifically they

In Tuscaloosa County, as of the year 2000,

14

there was a hundred sixty-eight thousand people.

15

must respectfully submit the old adage that if there

16

is no problem, don't fix it.

17

right.

I didn't say that quite

I know we all know what I meant.

18

In Fayette County, there were twenty-three

19

complaints.

20

private property without a permit; nine had to do with

21

hunting from a public road.

22

lawbreakers there ought to be no tolerance for them.

23

Our laws are not unreasonable, so let's put it on

24

them.

25

Fourteen had to do with hunting on

All right.

So I say with these

Man has hunted with dogs as

30
1

long as man and dogs have existed together.

that you please do not restrict dog hunting because of

the complaints of those who either don't like it or

those that have moved here and wish to change the way

we have traditionally hunted for hundreds of years.

I ask

I'm in favor of raising the hunting

license fees so we might have more officers in the

field.

you not be so quick to do away with our freedom to

For those who are anti-dog hunting, I ask that

10

hunt with dogs.

11

hunters, talk with them; be respectful.

12

show the same respect that we give in return.

13

like big boys and always remember the young hunters

14

are watching us.

15

There is room in the woods for all of us.

16
17
18

If you've got a problem with dog

Be willing to
Act

We must set a good example for them.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

The next

speaker will be Phillip Kizzire.

MR. KIZZIRE:

Good morning.

I'm Phillip

19

Kizzire from Fayette County, landowner and resident of

20

Fayette County.

21

hunting issue.

22

was a little boy with my father.

23

that's fourteen years old that enjoys every minute of

24

his dog hunting.

25

I'm here to speak about the dog

I've been a dog hunter from the time I
I've got a son

When you go hunting -- I belong to a stalk

31
1

hunting club also and a dog hunting club.

enjoys stalk hunting, but there's not as much

relationship between me and him with stalk hunting

because you're sitting there being quiet, being still

in a tree.

My son

If we go dog hunting, we gather up

everyone, draw our stands.

There's a lot of

relationship between the grown-ups and my son and a

lot of other people in my club that bring their

10

children with us.

11

need to leave as it is right now in Fayette County.

12

If you do have a problem with our club or any other

13

club, please contact us.

14

Fayette County contact us.

15

those problems and get those problems straightened out

16

without somebody taking a right from us that we've had

17

for years.

18
19
20

I think this is something that we

You know, let the people of

We'll try to deal with

That's all I've got to say.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

Thank you.

The next speaker

will be Ms. Susan Morrow.

MS. MORROW:

Good morning, Chairman and

21

Board members.

I'm here to speak to you today about

22

dog hunting in Cochtaw County.

23

members of Scott Mountain Hunting Club.

24

dogs that were shot this year.

25

collars that we found.

My husband and I are

We had two

Here is one of the

We did not find its body.

32
1

You have some pictures of some dogs that

I found in the woods that have been shot.

our dogs.

I don't know whose they are, but they're

not ours.

Our first dog, we went and we was tracking

him.

have my own tracking system.

tracking system.

8
9

They're not

We spent a lot of money to get our dogs back.

My husband has his own

We try to help all the other dog hunters

track theirs.

We can track their collars.

Everybody

10

tries to help everybody get their dogs up.

11

our dogs back.

12

hunters coming to the club and telling us that they

13

heard dogs barking.

14

are.

15

again, they are going to get petitions up and dog

16

hunting is going to be stopped.

17

We want

And we have a problem with stalk

They don't know whose dogs they

They didn't see the dogs.

But if it happens

Well, as we tell them that we have

18

tracking systems, we're trying to get the dogs back;

19

if they can help us come up with another way that will

20

help us get our dogs away from them, fine; we will do

21

it.

22

We're not the only dog hunting club there.

Then we went and talked with some people

23

where we was tracking one of our dogs, and all of a

24

sudden it quit tracking.

25

they had not seen it.

So -- and they told us that

And the night before dog season

33
1

went out, January the 14th, we was tracking a dog that

this collar was on.

one that we had just bought, spent a hundred fifty

dollars on it.

dog here I had raised from a baby.

And we picked up one of our dogs,

We picked it up first, because this

And this dog would stay and he would come

when we would call him.

loaded up to take it back to the camp, we went back to

get the other dog, no beep, no signal, whatsoever.

10

The next day my husband and son -- it was raining.

11

They were out looking, calling him.

12

him by name and he would come if he was close.

13

And when we got the other dog

You could call

But when we was tracking him that night,

14

the last track that we had on him, he was deep in the

15

woods and he was between Rock Gap Road and the Larry

16

McKenzie Camp.

17

And the next day my husband was on one

18

side of Rabbit Creek Road, and he was on the bridge

19

looking in the water and he seen this.

20

in the creek and got this collar.

21

And he waded

My son went and asked Bud Robinson on the

22

land could he have permission to go on his land and

23

hunt our dog's body so we could give him a proper

24

burial.

25

but that he was leaving, and whatever happened while

And he told him he wouldn't give permission

34
1

he was gone he had no control over.

truck and he left.

And he got in his

My son walked so far, and he could not

find him.

Montgomery.

wanted to know why we was calling them about a dog

getting shot.

County is supposed to report to.

one happened, I called Montgomery because I think it

10

And I reported all of these incidents to

I called District 5 the first time.

That's where I think that Chochtaw

MS. NUMMY:

12

CHAIRMAN:

14

And then when this

was a holiday.

11

13

They

you to continue.

Time.
Susan, please continue.

I want

Go ahead.

MS. MORROW:

I called Montgomery, and I

15

told them what the situation was.

16

before there had been another dog that had been shot,

17

and a hunter had heard this dog.

18

and they heard the dog crying.

19

another shot and they heard a truck leave.

20

on our property.

21

bordering ours.

22

the game warden, call me.

23

any evidence, if we found our dog's body, to please

24

call him and he would go in there.

25

And the night

They heard the shot

And then they heard
It was not

It was on some property that was

And Montgomery had Vince Wood,
And he told me if we had

And he told me that he would go and talk

35
1

to the people, the clubs, about this.

the only dog hunting club.

hunters.

because we spend a lot of money and hunting is very

good.

kids love.

husband has done it all his life.

our children.

because dog hunting is a socializing thing.

10

And we're not

We respect the stalk

We just ask that they respect us, too,

It's very good for the kids.

I love it.

Dog hunting the

I've done it all my life.

My

That's how we raise

It helps keep children off the streets

It's a

lot more fun than stalk hunting.

11

I do stalk hunt and I do appreciate stalk

12

hunters, and I do respect stalk hunters' rights, but I

13

would ask that something be done because it's hard.

14

When we raise a dog, we take care of our dogs.

Our

15

dogs are in concrete pens and they go to vets.

They

16

have shots.

17

boxes.

18

and we do everything that we can to get our dogs back.

19

We have three dog boxes, aluminum dog

We have a dog box to go on our four-wheelers,

And if you can figure out a way where we

20

can keep our dogs off of other people's land, we will,

21

but dogs have rights, too.

22

in somebody shooting our hunting dogs than somebody's

23

pet, like the stories that you see on the local news

24

about pets that have been abused because they are pets

25

and they're treated with respect.

And there is no difference

36
1

Just because we use them to run deer or

hogs, whatever you use them for, it doesn't mean you

don't love them.

something be done that can help everybody come

together on this, and that's all I have to say.

And we would just like to see

CHAIRMAN:

Very good.

Thank you, Susan.

Ms. Morrow, what district did you all hunt in?

live and hunt in a different district?

MS. MORROW:

Yes.

Do you

I live in Huntsville,

10

Alabama, and I hunt all over the state, but we belong

11

to Scott Mountain Hunting Club in Butler, Alabama.

12
13

CHAIRMAN:

In Butler?

Okay.

All right.

The next speaker will be Todd Tucker.

14

MR. TUCKER:

Good morning.

My name is

15

Todd Tucker of Fayette County.

16

than Ms. Morrow hasn't already said.

17

summed it up for all of us, I think, and any other

18

speaker before us.

19

County, and I would ask that we make the same -- we

20

don't need to change anything.

21

down here today to talk to the Board.

22

choice.

23

able to choose what we want to do, the method we want

24

to hunt.

25

I can't say much more

She pretty much

I am a pro dog hunter of Fayette

That's what we want.

We came a long way

We did this by

I want the right to be

I've got a son that's nineteen years old,

37
1

and I started him when he was old enough to walk,

teaching him how to dog hunt, stalk hunt, still hunt,

tree-stand hunt.

he wants to do, and that's the way I want it.

that's the way it should be when you raise children.

They should have a choice of how they want to spend

their time hunting and fishing.

8
9

Now the choice is his for whatever

And

Like I say, Ms. Morrow pretty much summed

it up for the dog hunters.

We all agree with her.

We

10

take care of ours dogs and we try not to let them get

11

on other people's property, but sometimes they do and

12

we can't help that.

13

sometimes it happens.

We don't want them to, but

14

And a lot of landowners will call us or

15

the club will call us to come pick up our dogs, and

16

that's the way it should be.

17

Berry last month.

18

attendance.

19

And like I say, probably ninety percent, plus, were

20

pro dog hunters there at that meeting.

We had a meeting up in

There was probably three hundred in

Some of the Board members were there.

21

I, myself, went to try to understand why

22

there's an issue of trying to ban dog hunting in the

23

county.

24

didn't like to hear dogs on his property while he was

25

hunting.

The minority group that was there, one guy

He didn't want to hear the sound of the dog.

38
1

There was a lady that couldn't ride her

horses because she was afraid they were going to be

shot.

had to sell his property because dogs was running all

over it.

that's his -- that's his story.

And there was another gentleman that said he

I don't know if I believe that or not, but

The majority, just like us, we just want

to keep things the way they are, and we're not asking

you to make any new rules or regulations or change

10

anything.

11

same and give us the right to choose.

12

We're just asking you that it remain the

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

13

speaker will be, again, Mr. Knight.

14

speak on a different subject, I think.

15

MR. KNIGHT:

The next

You wanted to

I'm Don Knight.

I live in

16

Anniston, but I hunt in Barbour County.

17

think a minute, but I'm the State President of the

18

Alabama Dog Hunting Association.

19

speaking on here today.

20

I had to

That's what I'm

I did attend the meeting in Berry,

21

Alabama.

I thought it was a well-attended meeting.

22

There was approximately three hundred people there of

23

which, like I say, by far the majority was pro dog.

24

think the petitions that they brought in today with

25

some more names added today, there is over two

39
1

thousand names now in favor of dog hunting in Fayette

County.

The meeting went well.

I wish we could

have got the people together where they could have

discussed things.

talked with wasn't interested.

which is terrible.

tactics or anything else in the dog hunters in Fayette

County.

10

I tried that.

The lady that I

I think she had fear,

We're not about any kind of fear

I found these people very passionate about

11

their hunting, but I found them also very willing to

12

help find the guilty people to where they can continue

13

to hunt the way they want to hunt.

14

not the method of hunting.

15

thing I think the people want to happen today.

16

Punish the people,

That's just not -- not the

I've heard several people speak lately

17

about not seeing any deer on their property all year,

18

but the dogs run across their property.

19

hunting fifty -- well over fifty years in the State of

20

Alabama, not in any other state, all right here in

21

Alabama.

22

that problem are just astronomically low.

23

I've been

The possibility of that and the dogs causing

My suggestion to these people is to try

24

going around to the stores and see who is buying all

25

the corn that don't have domestic animals, because I

40
1

think you'll find your problem.

you're not seeing any deer, more so than a dog running

across your property.

That's probably why

We have found on our land, and we've been

hunting thirty-five years, after we run an area, say

in the morning, that's the area we want to still hunt

in the evening.

8
9

Those deer are coming back that day.

Dan, I think I gave you a full report

where the Universities of South Carolina, Georgia and

10

Florida went in and did a test on running deer with

11

dogs.

12

found that they were back in the area they left and

13

the most was twenty-four hours.

14

where they came from in the area.

15

They ran these deer hard, extremely hard.

They

They were right back

So we have big deer on our property.

16

think most all of you have heard about some of the

17

deer that we kill on our land over there in Barbour

18

County.

19

thirty-five years.

We've been running that same land for over

It's up to us --

20

MS. NUMMY:

21

MR. KNIGHT:

Time.
-- to take care of it, and we

22

appreciate it.

We would just ask that you punish the

23

people and let us help you in Fayette County or any

24

other county in the State and let us continue with dog

25

hunting in Alabama.

41
1
2

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you very much.

The next

speaker will be John Ward.

MS. NUMMY:

MR. WARD:

Quiet, please.
My name is John Ward.

We have

about sixty-five hundred acres we lease in Fayette

County.

everything right.

alongside of us all day long catching the other dogs.

We have thirty-two youth turning out for the youth

We have got great hunting dogs.

We -- we do

I mean, other hunters come

10

hunt.

(Reporter having trouble understanding Mr. Ward

11

and asked him to repeat his statement.)

12

thirty-two young kids for the youth hunt, and I've got

13

a son who is fighting in the military.

14

hunter, too.

15

We had

He's a dog

He can't wait to get home.

About three months ago we all thought he

16

got killed.

That tore me up.

Well, we got a call

17

later on that night that he wasn't killed but another

18

guy named Jason Ward.

19

you know.

20

don't want to worry about hunting laws.

21

to do is enforce the hunting licenses and get more

22

game wardens to help us and get the outlaws out of

23

here.

24

can't help you, you know.

25

everything you've done for us.

You know, they help us a lot,

My heart goes out towards those guys.

We

What we need

If you don't get the game wardens out here, we

I thank you all for

42
1

CHAIRMAN:

speaker will be Sybil Deschaines.

3
4

MS. DESCHAINES:

The next

The first thing I would

like to do is express --

5
6

Thank you, Mr. Ward.

CHAIRMAN:
please, Ms. Deschaines.

Speak up to the microphone,

Thank you.

MS. DESCHAINES:

-- express our sympathy

to Mr. Coles for the devastation in his town and the

lives that were lost.

I've been there.

I know how it

10

feels.

I want to thank you for Elmore County, the ban

11

that was put into effect ten years ago in May, and I'm

12

still hearing it from the landowners in the community

13

how wonderful it is; they hardly realize hunting

14

season is open.

15

you.

And I thank you again for it. Thank

16

CHAIRMAN:

17

next speaker will be D.O. Harden.

18

MR. HARDEN:

Thank you, Ms. Deschaines.

Good morning.

The

I appreciate

19

the opportunity to speak to you this morning.

My name

20

is D.O. Harden.

21

leaseholder, and we are very much opposed to dog

22

hunting in Fayette County for a lot of reasons.

23

just going to read a few things from a few letters

24

that I have received and have gotten copies of, and

25

these are things that we all have run into.

I am a Fayette County landowner and

I'm

43
1

And what you are finding is when they say

there weren't very many people there at Berry, there

were so many people who were fearful, like the lady

who was mentioned, of stepping up and voicing their

opinions.

And what we're trying -- I've been talking

to a lot of people in Fayette County for the last two

or three months trying to determine exactly what the

extent of the problem is, and it is county wide.

The

10

problem is -- is -- is not with the dog hunting clubs,

11

because we know there are some good ones, but,

12

unfortunately, it appears that the bad ones outnumber

13

the good ones.

14

And what is occurring is that -- this --

15

this almost becomes not -- not a dog hunting issue or

16

a hunting issue, period.

17

private property rights issue.

18

your property without infringement in a peaceful

19

manner and without -- without someone coming onto your

20

property and trespassing.

21

It's -- it's a -- it's a

It's the right to use

And what we find is that when we go out

22

and we stalk hunt, there are too many instances, way

23

too many instances of people who are running dogs on

24

our properties.

25

three hundred seventy acres to try and insolate myself

I, in fact, have even leased another

44
1

from the dog hunters, but I find that they still come

through my property.

They're on the public roads that run

through my property.

they're ready to shoot dogs as they are crossing.

mine is not an isolated incident.

They have their guns out and

All of these letters give -- give

indication of what is happening.

time to go through all of them, unfortunately, we

10

don't have time.

11

For me to take the

I wish I did.

And I hope -- I hope that you all will

12

take the time to do it.

13

problem be solved.

14

getting worse.

15

there.

16

And what we're trying to do is -- is get everyone's

17

attention on this matter, and I think most of you

18

realize what is happening.

19

we did something about it.

20

And

But we are asking that this

Only you can solve it.

It's

The intimidation, the threats are

That's why you don't see many people here.

And it's time that we --

Someone is going to get -- someone is

21

going to get hurt.

We've had property discussions.

22

We've had livestock killed, and I'm not talking about

23

this being every -- every -- I would say there are a

24

good many people who are good dog hunters here, but

25

it's the bad ones who outweigh the good ones.

45
1

MS. NUMMY:

CHAIRMAN:

Time.
Just go ahead and finish,

Mr. Harden.

MR. HARDEN:

-- a return of our property rights.

them anymore.

hunters that we run into are only concerned about

hunting their dogs.

you know, encroaching on our property, trespassing on

10

And all we're asking for is a

We don't have

We have an infringement of -- the dog

They don't care whether they're,

our property or anything else.

11

We are strictly against those dog hunters,

12

and we're asking -- the only way the problem can be

13

solved to return our property rights is to ban dog

14

hunting in Fayette County.

15

consider doing that and please help solve this

16

problem.

17

you.

18
19
20
21

That's the only way it can be done.

MR. LYNCH:

MR. HARDEN:

Mr. Harden, if I can ask you,

My land is located in East

Central Fayette County in the Bankston area.

MR. LYNCH:

23

CHAIRMAN:

25

Thank

where is your land located?

22

24

We're asking you to

Thank you.
Thank you.

The next speaker

will be Truman Herren.

MR. HERREN:

My name is Truman Herren.

46
1

I'm from Northeast Fayette County.

I'm opposed to dog

hunting in its present state because dog hunters don't

respect land lines.

dogs can't read signs and don't know where the land

lines are.

dogs.

petitions on clip boards like this with a known number

of sheets.

I've heard too many times that

But the problem is the manipulators of the

As far as the petitions go, I put out ten

Of those ten, when I went back to pick

10

them up, two were completely gone.

Two more had been

11

picked up by a friend of mine, which that was not

12

true.

13

sheets with the names on it.

14

disappeared mysteriously.

Only one out of ten had the same number of

15

The rest of them

I've been intimidated, threatened and

16

vandalized, my property, in the last two weeks because

17

I've had the lack of sense to speak up and express my

18

views regarding dog hunting.

19

the least.

20

my land.

21

It hasn't changed me in

I still don't like anybody running dogs on

It's not right.
Since I've been speaking up, I've created

22

a rift in my community, in the church that I grew up

23

in, that the rest of my life will probably never be

24

healed.

25

children and grandchildren, and I'll be here doing it

So be it.

Somebody has to speak for my

47
1

at every opportunity.

CHAIRMAN:

MR. HERREN:

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you for your time.

Mr. Herren -Yes, sir.
-- could you come back?

Mr. Porter has a question.

MR. HERREN:

Yes, sir.

MR. PORTER:

On the petitions that you did

keep or get, how many signatures did you have?

MR. HERREN:

We have very few signatures.

10

And the people that I talked to about that said that

11

there was a lot of conversation but very few

12

signatures because people expressed concern if they

13

did sign.

14

MR. PORTER:

15

CHAIRMAN:

16

MR. JOHNSON:

17

Thank you.
Yes, sir.
Did you state how many acres

you had?

18

MR. HERREN:

Approximately seven hundred

19

acres; yes, sir.

20

on that seven hundred acres.

21

property since the 17 -- 1840's -- I beg your pardon

22

-- so I'm not a newcomer to Fayette County.

23

gone for forty-two years, but I came back home.

24
25

There's a family-owned hunting club

CHAIRMAN:
Board?

(No response)

We've owned that

I was

Any other questions from the

Very good.

Thank you,

48
1

Mr. Herren.

MR. HERREN:

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.
The next speaker will be Paul

Jeffreys.

MR. JEFFREYS:

Members of the Board, good

morning.

I'm Paul Jeffreys.

I'm from Lamar County,

and I've come down here today to thank you for the ban

on dog and deer hunting in the Northwest corner of

Alabama, in Lamar and Franklin and parts of Winston

10

Counties.

We came down here several years ago with a

11

property rights issue problem.

12

all granted us a ban on dog deer hunting.

13

Three years ago you

And since that time our way of life,

14

hunting experiences, has drastically increased.

15

nothing but a success story, gotten better and

16

continues to get better year after year.

17

like to express a deep heartfelt thank you to each and

18

every one of you for that ban and ask that you

19

maintain it.

20
21

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, sir.

It's

I would just

The next

speaker will be Mr. Jack Martin.

22

MR. MARTIN:

Good morning, Dan, Board

23

members.

Thank you for the time.

24

County.

25

about two hundred fifty acres.

I'm a leaseholder.

I hunt in Fayette

I'm probably hunting on

What I would like to

49
1

say to you is that I wouldn't be here today if there

wasn't a problem.

In some cases dogs run through other

people's property unintentional, as we've heard this

morning.

cases, it shows no respect for someone's property.

Landowners and people who lease land have the right to

protect and harvest the deer that they've raised on

their property.

In other cases, it is intentional.

10

In these

The money and time spent to seed and

11

prepare green fields, roads, it should not be wasted

12

having deer run off the property.

13

waiting to shoot all day with the grandchildren and

14

them not be able to see any deer.

15

dogs run through the property.

16

It's no fun to sit

You can hear the

Where did the deer go?

This is the very reason other counties

17

have had to close down dog hunting.

18

now surrounded by counties that have been closed to

19

dog hunting.

20

within the county.

21

clearly identified and discussed at the previous

22

meetings, people have received phone calls threatening

23

them.

24
25

Fayette County is

This has caused an influx of dog hunters

Since this problem has been

Others have had their property's "No

trespassing" signs destroyed.

I feel a man should

50
1

have the right to his property without threats and

abuse.

property as he sees fit.

A man should have the right to use his

Members of the Board, I'm begging you to

resolve this issue by closing down dog hunting in

Fayette County.

7
8

Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you, sir.

The next

speaker will be William Schober.

MR. SCHOBER:

Good morning.

My name is

10

William Schober.

11

Pleasant Grove.

12

to a club that is a still and stalk hunting club who

13

leases forty-four hundred acres in the vicinity of

14

Fayette County between Berry and Fayette.

15

sons that hunt with me.

16

today talking about hunting with his sons.

17

with my two sons.

18

years old.

19

five and seven.

20

I reside in Jefferson County,

I hunt in Fayette County.

I belong

I have two

I've heard a gentleman here

I hunt

They're thirty-two and thirty-five

I took them in the woods when they were

We've been still and stalk hunting except

21

for two years.

I belong to a dog hunting club in

22

Tuscaloosa County to see how the other half live.

23

was not impressed.

24

while the dogs were running.

25

land -- there was nine thousand acres.

I actually stood on public roads

There was parts of the
There were

51
1

parts of the land that that hunting club did not

lease.

They had no written permission from the

owners of the land, nor did we have members of the

landowners in our hunting parties, and we ran dogs

across that land anyway.

I saw deer that were bloodied limping off

into the woods and asked these guys do you want to go

track these deer.

10

"No.

It's nothing but a doe.

Let's go back to another piece of property."

11

So I've experienced the dog hunting side

12

of this issue and I did not like what I saw.

13

heard people sit up here and talk about traditions of

14

dog hunting.

15

the State.

16

you go roll to Tuber's Corner.

17

you have to respect people's windows and you have to

18

respect the cars.

19

I've

Everybody is familiar with football in

Down at Auburn, when you win a big game
(Phonetically)

But

If you start taking cars and breaking out

20

windows, that tradition will end.

21

have a tradition of parking in a particular area with

22

their RVs before the game.

23

the alumni gather before and after the game to

24

celebrate the win or to bemoan the loss.

25

In Alabama, they

There is a tradition where

The RVers have been moved at the request

52
1

of the business owners down in that particular area in

Alabama, at the University of Alabama, and they're

talking about putting a parking area in there.

tradition that by the wishes of others is going to be

changed, and people are going to have to live with it.

That's

They talk about respect, and I've heard

people talk about the threats made on them.

people in our club that have had threats made on them

by dog hunters in the vicinity, and it's gotten pretty

10

We've had

vocal.

11

It's gotten almost to the point of fist

12

fights.

So there is a lack of respect in part by dog

13

hunters on the rights of those who want to still and

14

stalk hunt.

15

With all due respect, at several of these

16

meetings people have talked about fighting in Iraq.

17

I fought in the first Gulf War.

18

rights of the man who will respect the rights of

19

another man.

20

MS. NUMMY:

21

CHAIRMAN:

22

MR. SCHOBER:

I fought for the

Time.
Go ahead and finish.
And there was a -- what was

23

it -- a 1969 Supreme Court case that coined the phrase

24

"My rights end where yours begin."

25

little bit, I think the rights of the dog hunters end

To reverse that a

53
1

where the rights of the landowners begin.

respect the rights of the landowners.

So you must

They say dogs can't read property signs.

They say they do their best to get their dogs

together.

impose a fine on a member whose dogs trespass on a

private landowner's property or a still or stalk

club's property.

this issue, impose a fine.

I know of no dog hunting club that will

10

I figure if you are serious about

They talk about shooting dogs.

In our

11

club, we had members threaten to shoot the dog.

12

president of the club told them, you do and you're out

13

of here.

14

sat in a stand and had dogs come under me.

15

on the road and have been run into a ditch by people

16

chasing their dog that are chasing the deer.

17

got to stop.

18

The

So we are respecting people's dogs, but I've

That's a safety issue.

I've been

That's

I'm not going to

19

have a wreck over a man trying to find his dogs or get

20

the deer.

21

of complaints.

22

by dog hunters, and the neighbors up there are tickled

23

pink from the reports we get.

24

complaints from them because they're not having

25

problems anymore.

And real quickly, they talk about the lack

We lease land that formerly was used

You're not going to get

54
1

So that may, in some part, explain the

lack of complaints that are coming out of Fayette

County.

dog hunting club, it was appropriately named because

we spent more time hunting dogs than we did hunting

deer.

appreciate it, and I appreciate you letting me finish.

Last, but not least, when I did belong to a

But anyway, that's my comments, and I really

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

MR. HATLEY:

10

CHAIRMAN:

11

MR. HATLEY:

12

reside?

I'm sorry.

I have a question.
Mr. Hatley, go ahead.
Where do you

I missed that.

13

MR. SCHOBER:

14

MR. HATLEY:

15

MR. SCHOBER:

16

MR. HATLEY:

17

Yes, sir.

I'm in Jefferson County.

Jefferson County?
Yes, sir.
How long have you been

hunting in Fayette County?

18

MR. SCHOBER:

19

MR. HATLEY:

About three years.

Were you aware or cognizant

20

of the fact that there was deer hunting being done by

21

dogs prior to you going into a stalk hunting club?

22

MR. SCHOBER:

Not the first year, no, sir.

23

Well, I became aware after I joined the club and paid

24

the dues; yes, sir.

25

MR. HATLEY:

So you actually knew that

55
1

there was a dog hunting operation going on around you,

but yet you wanted to lease land in between that or

around that?

MR. SCHOBER:

No, sir.

I joined a club

that was already established.

I belong to the club that does lease the land.

MR. HATLEY:

I don't lease the land.

My point is you went into an

area that was dog hunting and to stalk hunt; is that

correct?

10

MR. SCHOBER:

11

MR. HATLEY:

12

MR. SCHOBER:

Yes, sir.
Thank you.
And if I may follow up, I

13

assumed that, as all these dog hunters said that they

14

have honored the property lines, so I assumed I

15

wouldn't have a problem.

16
17

CHAIRMAN:

The next speaker, and we'll

conclude the speakers, is Bill Woodard.

18

MS. NUMMY:

19

MR. WOODARD:

Quiet, please.
My name is Bill Woodard.

We

20

own five hundred fifty acres in Fayette County.

Most

21

of this land has been in our family since 1859.

We

22

have a problem with dog hunters.

23

Sunday, our land is covered up with dogs.

24

hunt our own land for the dog hunters.

25

you to please ban dog hunting in Fayette County.

Every Saturday and

We can't

And I'm asking

56
1

Thank you.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you very much.

concludes our speakers.

will take a ten-minute recess.

be back at 10:15.

We will take -- the Board

It's now 10:05.

We'll

(A RECESS WAS TAKEN AT 10:05 A.M. AND THE

HEARING RECONVENED AT 10:30 A.M.)

CHAIRMAN:

That

going to reconvene.

All right.

The meeting is

This meeting is now back in

10

order.

11

business.

12

Again, the next topic of business is new business to

13

discuss.

14

they wish to discuss?

15

MR. SELF:

I do.

16

CHAIRMAN:

Mr. Self.

17

MR. SELF:

Mr. Chairman, I wanted to

18

discuss Spanish Mackerel fishing.

19

CHAIRMAN:

Speak up to the microphone,

21

MR. SELF:

It won't come up any further.

22

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

23

MR. SELF:

I've been fishing in the Gulf

20

The next topic of business is the topic of new

If everybody will find their chairs.

Does any of the Board have any new business

please, sir.

24

of Mexico for over fifty years, and one of the fish

25

that I like to catch is Spanish Mackerel.

And I've

57
1

noticed over the last few years a marked decrease in

the ability to catch Spanish Mackerel as a

recreational fisherman.

investigate why this is happening.

And it's brought me to

And it's -- it's not being experienced by

just myself, but I've had many, many, many complaints

of recreational fishermen that they are unable to

catch Spanish Mackerel in the Gulf anymore, or at

least in Alabama waters.

10

So that leads me to -- to start asking

11

some questions of marine resources.

They have

12

enlightened me a good bit.

13

to the fact that our neighbors, but primarily Florida,

14

has banished net fishing.

15

increased gill net pressure off the coast of Alabama.

And this kind of ties back

And this has resulted in

16

Now, I want to make this clear that,

17

according to the National Fisheries, there is no

18

shortage of Spanish Mackerel there in the Gulf.

19

records indicate that eighty percent of all Spanish

20

Mackerel caught in Alabama by gill netting is

21

occurring in Alabama.

22

But

And this can only be attributed to the

23

fact that that's where all gill net fishing is

24

happening.

25

a motion to request the Commissioner of Conservation

And for that reason, I would like to make

58
1

to investigate and study whether commercial over

harvesting of Spanish Mackerel by gill netting is

occurring in Alabama and to authorize them to adopt a

regulation to make it a requirement to permit the

same.

6
7

CHAIRMAN:

Is there a second to the

motion?

MR. HATLEY:

CHAIRMAN:

Second.
There is a second by

10

Mr. Hatley.

11

the Commissioner to come back and consider the banning

12

of gill netting, and the other thing, the regulation

13

to control; is that correct, Ross?

14

The motion again is to consider -- for

MR. SELF:

Yeah, just to see if there

15

might need to be some adjustments to -- to the harvest

16

of Spanish Mackerel.

17

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

18

CHAIRMAN:

19

discussion on it?

A quota.

Commercial quota.
Okay.

No discussion?

Is there any

All those in favor?

20

(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

21

CHAIRMAN:

22

The motion passes.

23

Board?

All opposed?

(No responses)

Any other new business by the

24

MR. LYNCH:

25

CHAIRMAN:

I've got some.

Mr. Lynch?

59
1

MR. LYNCH:

Board members have received a

letter from Billy Wallace concerning the situation

that's occurring in Macon County.

pass this down, start it down with Mr. Hatley and

start it the other way.

that's high-fenced approximately six hundred fifty or

seven hundred acres and has built an earthen ramp that

goes up to the fence with a wooden wall.

has feed on the inside of the enclosure to where deer

And I'm going to

Basically, it's a gentleman

And then he

10

can come up the ramp, jump down into the enclosure and

11

then can't get out.

12

I've talked with Corky and with Alan about

13

this, and they say that, while this is not the norm

14

across the State, that this, as well as some other

15

attempts to attract deer and to hold them inside the

16

enclosure without a way for them to get out, is going

17

on throughout the State, and we currently don't have

18

anything on our books to give our enforcement officers

19

a way to enforce the situation.

20

So I'm asking at the May meeting that they

21

present a resolution or passage of new regulation that

22

will limit someone attempting to track any animal into

23

a high-fenced enclosure without having a way for the

24

animal to escape from that enclosure at the May

25

hearing.

60
1

MR. PORTER:

CHAIRMAN:

that.

MR. LYNCH:

There is a second on

That's just a motion to

present that.

6
7

Okay.

Was that a motion or just a resolution?

4
5

I second that.

CHAIRMAN:

Any discussion on that?

All

those in favor?

(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

CHAIRMAN:

All opposed?

(No response)

10

Corky, if you all will report at the May meeting on

11

that.

Okay.

Any other new business?

12

MR. LYNCH:

13

CHAIRMAN:

14

MR. LYNCH:

I have one more.

Go ahead, Mr. Lynch.
As I understand, in addition

15

to the bill that Riley Smith spoke to us about, we

16

have two other bills that are currently being

17

considered by the Alabama Legislature.

18

package.

19

Board recommends to the Alabama State Legislature that

20

those three bills are passed as written and that the

21

revenue streams that they create go to the intended

22

agencies within this department, and that those bills

23

are necessary and required for the continued success

24

and improvement of those agencies.

25

It is a three

I would like to make a motion that this

CHAIRMAN:

Are you saying nonamended?

61
1

MR. LYNCH:

Yes, and they should be passed

nonamended, and that the revenue streams themselves

are kept intact to the agency for which they are

intended.

MR. HATLEY:

CHAIRMAN:

there any discussion?

I second the motion.

He seconds the motion.
No discussion?

All in favor.

(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

CHAIRMAN:

10

All opposed?

Any other new business?

11

Is

(No response)

Dr. Strickland?

DR. STRICKLAND:

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

12

would like to make a recommendation.

13

realize how important good, clean data statistics is

14

in making informed decisions, particularly in managing

15

wildlife here in Alabama.

16

medicine is my observations, when taking care of a

17

patient, are not necessarily true all the time, and we

18

make decisions based on scientific principles, data

19

and statistics.

20

I think we all

One thing I've learned from

We have good data statistics here with our

21

Board, but I think we could do better.

One of the

22

things that I would recommend is taking a look at

23

Auburn.

24

professionals that are trained in data collection,

25

scientific principles.

Auburn University, they have trained

I think it would be very

62
1

valuable to help us make informed decisions with

regard to managing wildlife.

need a motion or a resolution to get Auburn University

involved?

CHAIRMAN:

I was wondering, do we

Commissioner, would that be

something you would do if the Board asked you to do

that?

8
9

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:
could look and see.

Yeah, we probably

Auburn is doing some work right

10

now.

11

suggest that they -- they could add to that research.

12
13
14

We could get some data as to what Auburn might

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

So could we depend on

you to take that and come back and review that?

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

We will look at that

15

and see and get with Auburn and see what kind of

16

monies we're talking about and how we may be able to

17

fund that and bring that back to the Board.

18

CHAIRMAN:

Very good.

19

DR. STRICKLAND:

20

CHAIRMAN:

21

MR. COLES:

22

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other new business?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Coles.

Mr. Coles, before

23

you get started, because I know you can be

24

long-winded, I want to recognize, I want to make sure

25

everybody in the room -- Hobbie, where are you?

63
1

Hobbie, stand up.

real new anymore, Assistant Commissioner.

everybody to meet him from this area, and, Hobbie,

know we appreciate you being on board, and, again,

welcome Hobbie Sealy.

6
7

This is our -- our fairly new, not

MR. SEALY:

I want

It's great to be here.

(CLAPPING FROM THE BOARD AND AUDIENCE)

CHAIRMAN:

MR. COLES:

Now Mr. Coles.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to be

10

like Elizabeth Taylor told her fourth and fifth

11

husbands; I won't keep you long.

12

questions for the Wildlife Freshwater Fisheries.

13

Mr. Moody, approximately how many deer are killed on

14

our management areas, roughly?

15
16

MR. MOODY:

I'm drawing a blank.

We'll

give you the sum here in just a minute.

17
18

I have a couple of

MR. COLES:

My next question while he's

MR. MOODY:

The State is harvesting, I

looking --

19
20

can't give you the exact number; about three or four

21

thousand.

22

number.

23

If you would like, I'll pull up the exact

MR. COLES:

No, that's all right.

24

give me a guesstimate on that management area.

25

or four thousand?

Just
Three

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CHAIRMAN:

MR. HAYDEN:

Please identify yourself.

David Hayden.

I'm Assistant

Chief of the Wildlife section.

head, I would say forty-five hundred to five thousand.

MR. COLES:

Off the top of my

How much of our research money

or Pittman-Robinson money is going to research at the

management areas, approximately?

8
9

MR. MOODY:

Very little for research, you

know, a lot for operations.

10

MR. COLES:

Do you have any -- can you

11

give me any figures as to how much money we got from

12

Pittman-Robinson last year?

13
14

MR. MOODY:

Ballpark, three and-a-half

MR. COLES:

Three and-a-half million?

million.

15
16

any of the Pittman-Robinson money used for game and

17

animal research?

Was

18

MR. MOODY:

Yes.

19

MR. COLES:

Approximately how much?

20

MR. MOODY:

I can't tell you right off the

21

top of my head.

22

MR. COLES:

Any money, or research money,

23

used for game, animal data collection as far as after

24

harvest?

25

MR. MOODY:

Yes.

65
1

MR. COLES:

Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a

-- I have a motion that I would like to make.

up here and make decisions at each meeting based on

the information that we have.

time, I don't feel that we have adequate information.

So I would like to make a motion that this

Conservation Advisory Board be furnished a detailed

report for the past three years of any

Pittman-Robinson Act funds and Dingle-Johnson Act

10

We sit

And at this present

funds that the Conservation Department has received.

11

And I would also like this report to

12

include what, if any, research funds, what they've

13

been used for and the amount of money for each project

14

and who did that research.

15

that each Board member should receive this report

16

within the next fifteen days.

17
18

CHAIRMAN:

And I would like to add

Is there a second to the

motion?

19

DR. STRICKLAND:

20

CHAIRMAN:

Second.

A second.

On the motion, the

21

motion is, again, I would like to make the motion that

22

this Conservation Supervisory Board be furnished a

23

detailed report for the past three years of any

24

Pittman-Robinson Act funds and Dingle-Johnson Act

25

funds that the Conservation Department has received.

66
1

I would also like this report to include any research

funds that have been used -- which have been used, for

the amount of money for each project and who did the

research.

report in the next fifteen days.

Yes, sir, Mr. Porter.

Each Board member should receive this

MR. PORTER:

Any discussion?

This might be considered an

amendment, but it seems to me that also included in

that should be some explanation about how you can --

10

those monies are somewhat restricted.

11

members an idea as to what they -- what they can be

12

used for.

13

CHAIRMAN:

Give the Board

Would you be opposed to that

14

being within your motion, Mr. Porter, of how that

15

money is being used?

16

MR. PORTER:

The only question I have to

17

the Department is the fifteen days, is that something

18

that could be reasonably collected and delivered

19

within fifteen days?

20

MR. MOODY:

21

CHAIRMAN:

Yes.
Any other discussion on this

22

motion?

23

as read except added that, also, how all these monies

24

can be used with wildlife, Mr. Porter?

25

No other discussion?

MR. PORTER:

The motion, again, is

No, just a -- just an

67
1

explanation of the Pittman-Robinson funds and the

Dingle funds.

just an explanation of how they -- how they can be

spent.

They are restricted to certain uses;

CHAIRMAN:

(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

CHAIRMAN:

The motion passes.

Very good.

All those in favor?

All opposed?

(No response.)

Any other new business?

MR. HATLEY:

10

CHAIRMAN:

11

MR. HATLEY:

I'd like to make a motion -Go ahead.

-- to approve all the

12

Department of Conservation regulations since the last

13

approval.

14

CHAIRMAN:

There is a motion.

Is there a

15

second to approve all regulations since the last --

16

what was that?

17

MR. HATLEY:

18

CHAIRMAN:

19

Any discussion?

Since the last approval.

-- since the last approval.

No discussion?

All those in favor?

20

(ALL BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

21

CHAIRMAN:

22

All opposed?

None?

Any other

new business?

23

DR. MAY:

24

CHAIRMAN:

25

DR. MAY:

I have a motion.
Dr. May.
I'd like to add the north zone,

68
1

207208 to read fifteen a day, fifteen in possession,

sixty days, split season, September the 22nd to

October the 13th, twenty-two days; October the 27th to

November the 18th, twenty-three days; December the

15th to December the 29th, fifteen days, a total of

sixty days.

7
8

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

Is that the entire

motion?

DR. MAY:

Yes.

10

CHAIRMAN:

Okay.

11

MR. PORTER:

12

MR. JOHNSON:

13

CHAIRMAN:

Is there a second?

Second.
Second the motion.

There is a motion and a second.

14

The motion is concerning dove season as read by

15

Dr. May.

16

There being no discussion on the motion, the motion is

17

--

Is there any discussion on this motion?

18

MR. LYNCH:

19

CHAIRMAN:

20

MR. LYNCH:

I've got one.

Mr. Lynch.
This motion he just made, I'm

21

sorry, I was looking for it in my package.

22

wouldn't open until September 22nd?

23

DR. MAY:

24

MR. LYNCH:

25

DR. MAY:

It

Correct.
What was the season last year?
It opened the 15th.

69
1

CHAIRMAN:

MR. HATLEY:

Mr. Lynch.
Why are we going back and

forth?

CHAIRMAN:

Mr. Hatley, if you will address

the Chair, please, sir.

MR. HATLEY:

Yes, sir, Mr. Hatley.

Why are we swapping dates

constantly on this season?

we've done this.

CHAIRMAN:

10

DR. MAY:

This is the third year

Dr. May?
The Department came back and

11

recommended opening it the 8th of September.

I feel

12

the 8th is too early.

13

mature for twenty days.

14

peek months of hatching.

15

last hatching in August, it's going to be eight days

16

old.

17

that early, plus I have too many complaints about the

18

weather and the heat.

19

CHAIRMAN:

20

MR. HATLEY:

We know young doves are not

July and August are the true
So if you open the 8th, the

I don't think it's biologically correct to open

Mr. Hatley.
Well, I just noticed Georgia,

21

they open the 1st of September, and Mississippi does,

22

too.

23

22nd, I just wondered why we keep vacillating between

24

all these dates.

25

And if we're going to go back all the way to the

DR. MAY:

Well, the question to ask is why

70
1

are they opening early.

hunters' preference.

with other states.

I don't feel we should compete

CHAIRMAN:

MR. PORTER:

6
7

That's the commercial

Mr. Porter.
Mr. Moultrie, Tennessee opens

the 1st of September, too.

CHAIRMAN:

I believe, Gary and Corky, do

you all know, doesn't every other state around us open

for the Labor Day weekend?

10
11
12

MR. MOODY:

Is that correct?

It's very early in September.

I don't know if it's Labor Day.

CHAIRMAN:

I believe it's on the 1st, but

13

I'm not positive about that.

14

right, Mr. Porter.

Okay.

15

MR. SMITH:

16

CHAIRMAN:

17

MR. SMITH:

But I think you're

Any other discussions?

Yes.
Mr. Smith?
One of the reasons to go back

18

to what Mr. Hatley is saying here, if we moved it from

19

-- back and forth was that we had testimony before the

20

group here, before the Board, people were concerned

21

that if you move it too late in the season, these

22

folks in the other states do get a head start.

23

at the hunters' request that we move it back to the

24

8th or thereabouts in the year there.

25

part of the explanation.

It was

I mean, that's

71
1

MR. HATLEY:

CHAIRMAN:

I think so.
Pardon, Mr. Hatley?

If you

would speak into the microphone, Mr. Hatley.

court reporter has a harder time if you don't do that.

5
6

MR. HATLEY:

The

I'm not going to worry about

dove season.

CHAIRMAN:

on the motion?

All those in favor?

Is there any other discussion

Okay.

The motion is as Dr. May read.

10

(MOST BOARD MEMBERS SAID "AYE")

11

CHAIRMAN:

12

MR. LYNCH:

13

CHAIRMAN:

All opposed?
Aye.
Let the record show one

14

opposed, Mr. Lynch.

The motion carries.

15

new business?

16

of business is that, being there is no other new

17

business, is the announcement of the May Advisory

18

Board meeting will be held on May 19, 2007 in North

19

Alabama.

Any other new business?

COMMISSIONER LAWLEY:

21

ASSISTANT CHIEF:

22

to hang around for a second?

23

CHAIRMAN:

24

DR. STRICKLAND:
Alabama.

The next order

Commissioner, do we have a location yet?

20

25

Any other

We do not.

Would you ask the Board

That will be fine.

I suggest Huntsville,

72
1

MR. LAWLEY:

We were hoping to have the

next meeting at Guntersville State Park, but it

doesn't look like the park is going to be complete in

time for it.

vigorously to find a place for us to meet in North

Alabama as we try to move into the three areas of the

State.

8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

So right now Robin is searching very

CHAIRMAN:
possible.

We'll announce that as soon as

Being there is no further business, this

meeting is adjourned.
(THE MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:45 A.M.)

73
1

C E R T I F I C A T E

2
3

STATE OF ALABAMA:

COUNTY OF MOBILE:

5
6

I do herby certify that the above and foregoing

transcript of said meeting in the matter

aforementioned was taken down by me in machine

shorthand, and the proceedings thereto were reduced to

10

writing under my personal supervision, and that the

11

foregoing represents a true and correct transcript of

12

the proceedings upon said meeting to the best of my

13

ability.

14
15
16

Dated this 28th day of March, 2007.

17
18

____________________________

19

Linda S. Crowder, CCR-RPR

20

Registered Professional Reporter

21
22