Escolar Documentos
Profissional Documentos
Cultura Documentos
$2.50
AMERICAN ATHEIST
A Journal of Atheist News and Thought
Religion in Government
AMERICAN ATHEISTS
is a non-profit, non-political,educational orgamzation, dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church.
We accept the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the "First Amendment" to the Constitution of the United States was
meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.
American Atheists are organized to stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs,
.creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals and practices;
to collect and disseminate information, data and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding
of them, their origins and histories;
to encourage the development and public acceptance of a human ethical system, stressing the mutual sympathy,
understanding and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to
society;
to develop and propagate a culture in which man is the central figure who alone must be the source of strength, progress
and ideals for the well-being and happiness of humanity;
to promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation and
enrichment of human (and other) life;
to engage in such social, educational, legal and cultural activity as willbe useful and beneficial to members of American
Atheists and to society as a whole.
Ath eism
.
may be d e fime d
.- 7
P.O.80x2117
,,'0
AUSTIN, TX78768-2117
Send $40lor one year's membership and you will receive our newsletters, 0 membership
card atld tf!tti/fcat~, -and tme year 01 AMER~CAN ATHEIST magazine.
'" .-
ARTICLES
ON THE COVER
AMERICAN ATHEIS'T
Tht Ominous Sp,tt"
FEATURED COLUMNISTS
Tolerance and Intolerance - Jeff Frankel
Life and Death of a Star - G. Stanley Brown
Religion's Assault on Information and Learning
- Fred Woodworth
4
5
25
PICTORIAL REVIEW
Religion in Government
NEWS
American Atheists Win a Big One
21
REGULAR FEATURES
Editorial: "Reds" - Jon Murray
Editor~in-Chief
Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Managing Editor
Jon G. Murray
Poetry
Robin Murray-O'Hair
Production Staff
Art Brenner
BillKight
Richard Smith
Gerald Tholen
Gloria Tholen
Non-Resident Staff
G. Stanley Brown
Jeff Frankel
Ignatz Sahula-Dycke
Fred Woodworth
Austin, Texas
The American Atheist magazine is published monthly at the Gustav Broukal American Atheist Press, 2210 Hancock Dr., Austin, TX 78756, and 1982 by Society of
Separationists, Inc., a non-profit, non-political, educational organization dedicated to
the complete and absolute separation of
state and church. Mailing address: P. O.
Box 2117, Austin, TX 78768-2117. A free
subscription is provided as an incident of
membership in the American Atheists organization. Subscriptions are available at
$25. for one year terms only. Manuscripts
submitted must be typed, double-spaced
and accompanied by a stamped. self-addressed envelope. The editors assume no
responsibility for un solicited manuscripts.
The American Atheist magazine
is indexed in
Monthly Periodical Index
ISSN: 0332-4310
June, 1982
Page 1
EDITORIAL
Jon G. Murray
"Reds"
The Soviets know how to play geopolitics in a much more
sophisticated manner than does our national (so-to-speak)
"leaders." When it comes to the theopolitical field they are,
in many aspects, superb theological chess players. Having
built into its constitution a complete separation of state and
church, the nation has felt comfortable enough to permit
churches to function - knowing as it does that without
state tax exemption, state financial support, state favoritism, churches can only remain static and small.
Knowing full well that the christian religions are both used
and rewarded for being used by the United States in its
ideological confrontation
with the Soviets, that nation in
May pulled off its own black propaganda coup. The United
States is adept at black propaganda
and recognized the
ploy so that the White House stepped in to ask Billy
Graham not to go to Moscow to participate in a meeting of
several hundred of the "Clergy against Nuclear War." The
temptation of "carrying the words of jesus" to "Atheist
Russia" was too overpowering
to Graham in his basic
fanaticism and he eschewed the warning of the White
House.
Courteously received and having been shown that there
exist in the U.S.S.R. literally thousands of churches (albeit
small ones) Graham was enthused about "incipient religious freedom" in that nation. The news media of the United
States speaking to the ploy instead of the basic issue fell
upon the subsequent
words and reports of Graham in
regard to religion. That was NOT the name of the game.
What the Soviets were doing was reaching out for another
group of allies in respect to disarmament and the precluding
of a nuclear war. It was incidental whom that group
represented
as long as it could be enlisted on the side of
peace. What citizens of our nation do not understand is [1]
that Russia was decimated in the First World War and her
revolution immediately associated with that war and [2] that
she lost 20,000,000 people and several great cities in the
Second World War. The United States, bounded by two
oceans, knows nothing of the decimation of a war on its own
territory. No civilians, no cities of our nation have ever been
plain bombed, fire bombed or nuked. The magnitude of the
Russian lives lost has never been equalled in all of the
combined countries of the West in any war. Russia wants
and needs peace. Hence, she reaches out, if need be, to the'
utmost enemy, the clergy. And, she stages the outreach by
inviting a leader thereof into the heart of her nation:
Moscow. That is astute geopolitical and theopolitical moxie!
The United States cannot pull off the reverse by asking
Atheist leaders of the world to meet in Washington, D.C. to
discuss peace by asking a foreign Atheist leader to address
them. The United States is precluded from doing this
because it has set up "Atheism" as a real fundamental
enemy so inherently evil, allied with Satan, that the thought
of such rapport
is totally untenable
politically.
The
U.S.S.R., therefore, could and did play one-upman-ship
with elan.
Billy Graham, whose ignorance is surpassed only by his
Page 2
basic fanaticism, even after the event, could only see the
hope of a Graham crusade across the wild tundras of Russia
with himself as a Don Quixote of our era carrying "the
word." The spectacle is pitiful.
Meanwhile, back in the United States, Graham was
underfire by his colleagues, perhaps as much out of envy, as
out of Soviet hatred. The government was aghast.
Recent media reporting of the plans of the Republican
party for the November election indicates that a religious
issue is planned to dominate the domestic scene during that
autumnal imbroglio humorously known as the democratic
process of free elections. After surveying and resurveying,
the right -wing Republicans, now in possession of the nation,
have found that they have "overwhelming support," reported as being 65% of the nation, on one issue and one issue
only: return of prayer to the public schools. Reagan and his
cohorts are failing across the political front in all areas,
hence a tried-and-true
emotional issue is not only needed
but has been found.
The escalation of the issue started on two fronts. Within
days of Graham's return to the United States, his reports of
religious freedom in Russia were attacked from all quarters
and a campaign began in the press to show that Russia was
beginning an internal campaign to crush religion and
reinforce Atheism. This was a clear signal then for the
United States to begin an internal campaign to crush
Atheism and reinforce christianity in the United States.
Suddenly the old McCarthy issue of "All Atheists are
Communists"
was being resurrected,
while the President
himself opted for the return of prayer to the public schools.
In conjunction with the president's declaration, a test was
instituted to see how quickly a constitutional amendment
could be passed. That the place chosen was the state of
Tennessee
has particular significance in the plot. The
largest bible publishing house in the world is situated in
Nashville and it is orchestrating
an enormous campaign to
sell, in millions of copies, a book which will assault the
Murray-O'Hairs
and the American Atheist organization as
not only tools of communism, but as communists. Due to be
released in June, the building of the campaign is scheduled
to peak in November. That the charges are a tissue of lies
matters little or nothing: the F.C.C. phantom petition (see
Vol. 24, No.5, May, 1982 issue of the American Atheist, an
June, 1982
American Atheists
Jean-Yves Riviere
SATURDAY
NO MIRACLE
June, 1982
SUNBURN
A LA TALAUDIERE
Page 3
crowd: "Take care", they said, "if you see the sun split into
two, this is no miracle, but a mirage. It means that your
retinas are being burnt. Then go to the hospital at once in
order to be treated".
This explains why many pilgrims who had come to La
Talaudiere with a good sight had become blind when they
left. A sort of topsy-turvy miracle, somehow. It also explains
why the church would have easily done without all this
publicity.
Asked about the reason why, according to her, the holy
virgin had missed their meeting, Blandine retorted that it
was on account of the presence of too many reporters and
the lack of faith of too many people. So also was her father's
opinion.
And now, here are some of the predictions virgin mary
has trusted the girl with:
June, 1982
American Atheists
the islamic fundamentalists who run the Iranian government do? I'd be shot before I could finish writing this (and
before you could finish it).
At this point one might accuse us Atheists of intolerance.
After all, we have taken the fight against christianity to court
on more than one occasion. But would anybody but the
hardest racist accuse the NAACP of intolerance for going
to court to preserve black rights? Never, to my knowledge,
has any American Atheist pursued any legal action which
would hinder anybody's religious liberty. Yet, many christians see nothing wrong with "blasphemy" laws and statutes
which prevent Atheists and agnostics from holding public
office. We Atheists have to acknowledge a god we don't
believe in every time we pass any U.S. currency. We must
pay higher taxes to make up for what the churches don't
pay, thus indirectly supporting a cause in which we don't
believe. We are expected to sit back and watch our
Constitution be dragged through the mud as the First
Amendment calling for the total separation of church and
state is violated time and time again. Christians are so quick
to scream "persecution" and gripe about having their rights
to believe as they choose violated. If they want to find out
what persecution and rights violations are all about, they
should become Atheists for just 24 hours. They'd develop a
different viewpoint, I'm sure.
I know of no action ever taken by any Atheist which could
be considered unjustly intolerant of religion. That is be-
Looking Up
G. Stanley Brown
brightness is obtained from apparent brightness and distance. Temperature is obtained from color, because blue
stars are hot, red stars are cool, in the world of stars. Stellar
mass can be known when two stars are observed revolving
around each other. Such pairing is common. By measuring
the orbital speed and separation of the stars we can
compute their mass. The mathematics for this is an
application of Kepler's third law, which was mentioned in
the third paper of this series (American Atheist, Vol. 23, No.
12, p. 9).
STELLAR BIRTH
A star may be large, having more than ten times the mass
of the sun, or it may be small, having as little as one-tenth the
mass of the sun. For any mass the early phases of existence
are the same. The star is an enormous blob of gas, faintly
glowing on the outside and hotter in its center than the
apparent surface of the sun. Its position can be plotted on
an H-R diagram on the right side about mid way up. With the
passage of time the star radiates more energy, becomes
smaller, and the internal temperature rises. This raises the
external temperature, so the star moves to the left on the
diagram.
Physics and mathematics are very adept at dealing with
June, 1982
Page 5
June, 1982
American Atheists
12
~ +1
+~
;J
to-
Z
<
0 +4
...~
.'
+M
::I
...-e
::I
.,
:;
+~
0 +8
...:J:
"
...
<
..
+IU
.'
s:J:...
"\;~.
...:
"
to-
,:..
+ 12
e<,
..
.,
~
-...
~.~
. +14
~+IU
'
...
."
+0.4
+U.8
+0.4
+U.8
+1.2
r ,
.. ...
'.
18
.
'.
e<,
...
<
< + 12
I~
." ,
+1.6
8-V
B-V
PLEIADES
PRAfSFPE
-.4
-.2
+.2
+.4
+.~
+ .8
+ I
+ 1.2
+ 1.4 + 1.6
+ 1.8
FIG. I
B-V
"A
tktoi/.J H-R Jio/l'.'" of /llobulo, d"s,,, M). (H. L. Johmon , A.
AS!<ophy,ial Journal CXXIV (/9.16). )79 19.16 by ,he Vnivmi'y of Chicogo)
FIG.
STELLAR DEATH
Evolution of stars becomes dramatic and spectacular for
the few that are massive. Their great central temperatures
synthesize heavier and heavier elements until an iron core is
created. At this point nuclear physics tells us of a change in
the routine. So far, when atoms combined, the result was an
atom with a mass less than the sum of the masses of the
contributors. The difference in the sum and result was
converted to radiant energy. But iron and heavier elements
work in opposite fashion. The heavy element is more
massive than the sum of the masses of its components.
Hence there is a tremendous absorption of energy. The iron
core devours its own energy and implodes. Electrons are
forced into protons and neutrons are created. The core of
the star becomes a neutron star.
Meanwhile the collapse of the surrounding shells releases
so much energy that a fire storm of element creation occurs
with a wholesale outpouring of energy. The result is a
catastrophic detonation. The star explodes. A supernova is
seen. All kinds of elements are created and blown out into
Austin, Texas
R.
S.lI/loge,
STELLAR FATE
After the explosion a neutron star remains and is seen in
nature as a pulsar. It pulses because the neutron star is
rotating and carrying an intense magnetic field with it.
Radiating particles are funneled into the field and produce a
beam of radiation which sweeps past the earth ifwe happen
to lie in the path of the beam. Each sweep is seen here as a
radio pulse. Sometimes there is also a visual pulse.
Ifa star is sufficiently massive, perhaps more than 50 solar
masses, the implosion of the iron core may compress it
beyond a point of no return. The material is packed in such
a small space that its own gravity becomes overwhelming. It
collapses so that nothing is left.but the gravitational field.
Near the source of the field gravity is so strong that nothing
can escape it, not even light. It is a black hole.
One may wonder how we could hope to detect something
which cannot send us information about itself. But the
gravitational field is there and if the black hole is in an orbit
about another star we may see an effect on or by the less
evolved star. Observations of a variable star in the constellation of Cygnus reveal Xrays coming from the same
direction. The rays could result from matter falling into the
black hole, converting gravitational potential energy into
radiant energy. The optical variability results from the
passage of the star in front of the black hole and vice versa.
Another hint that astrophysicists are on the right track
about stellar evolution involves chemical abundances. The
relative amounts of elements such as silicon, magnesium,
neon, oxygen, and carbon found in the earth and sun
matches that calculated in a star of 20 solar masses just
before detonation of the iron core.
Stars which are not massive enough to evolve to the
(Cont'd. on page 28)
June, 1982
Page 7
OF AMERICAN ATHEISTS
June, 1982
'American Atheists
We did it!
We wonder if Ronald
Reagan isn't saying that
. - -_ .. in private?
June, 1982
Page 9
Minerva Massen -
Gregory Fahy -
PhD.
Frank Zindler -
PhD.
PhD.
American Atheists
Larry McHoliand
among others
June, 1982
Page 11
Ron Lindsay -
June, 1982
Attorney
American Atheists
(Jefferson Memorial)
glad to be Atheist
Page 13
of wisdom
A proud Atheis
DC Chapter
convention
A word of strategy Jl
.American Atheists
roud Atheist
f strategy perhaps?
Austin, Texas
Via
June, 1982
Monument in back.
Page 17
Ann Brenner
Arnold Via
. June, 1982
American Atheists
John Crump -
Kyrin Alves -
Barbara Sowder -
PhD.
Pioneer Atheist
Page 19
June, 1982
American Atheists
June, 1982
Page 21
Our Demand:
June, 1982
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Plaintiff,
*
*
v.
Civil
No. 81-3643-N
*
*
;~il!)llnl
r . ~ -~., r
*
*
Defendants.
-*
~:oo
_r~
V/~=~'
'/ , /.:;'1;1
Jrl"-
?
;LJ-,IJ..K Z-
Harold
Church
~'~
JUDGMENT
The plaintiffs
challenge Article
violative
in this declaratory
of the Establishment
as being
judgment action
Amendment.
Article
IX S 2 provides:
shall
of this State."
favor
(1961)
it ia therefore hereby
is unconstitutional
Each
party will bear its own other costs, including attorney's fees.
APPROVED AS TO FORM AND CONTENT: ,
6LLl~.~1r.4.
Attorney
Attorney
General
--
-.,
Enter this
---,2~2__
day of
, 1982.
for Plaintiffs
Austin, Texas
June, 1982
Page 23
!
I
UNITED STATES
WESTERN
DISTRICT
DISTRICT
COURT
OF NORTH CAROLINA
CHARLOTTE DIVISION
Civil Action File No. CC 78-0351
SOCIETY OF SEPARATIONISTS,
and PATRICIA VOSWINKEL,
Plaintiffs
INC.
)
)
)
F, lED
CHARLOTTE.
vs
APR. 41919
stitutional
}
)
)
)
)
in this action,
us.
seek declaratory
Article
cites
dated January
of the decisions
disqualifies
qualifies
the opinion
that
The answer
General
it is stated,
Court,
Patricio
Vos",inkel
of North
the portion
Constitution,
of
which dis-
for office any person who shall deny the being of Almighty
God, violates
Plaintiffs
~OW, THEREFORE,
ORDERED,
ADJUDGED
Carolina
Constitution
disqualifies
by consent
have therefore
agreed to the
VI, Section
it is hereby
8 of the North
God.
of all parties
of the parties,
that Article
is unconstitutional
for office,
Charlotte,
a person
and
AND DECREED
and Defendants
Dated at
(ovitT
N.C.
for office
God".
of the Attorney
VI, Section
judgment
i.)F
Carolina
DISTRI(T
W(\; "'ST.
of the Defendants
N.C.
JUDGMENT
qualified
N. C., this
4I'f:A,
a,.~.
, 1979.
Page
Patricia
Judge
Voswinkel
24
\,
)
June, 1982
Am
.
encan Ath .
elsts
Fifth Column
F red Woodworth
RELIGION'S ASSAULT ON
INFORMATION AND LEARNING
IN ANCIENT AND HISTORIC TIMES
Everybody is familiar with efforts carried out by religious
censors to hamper the furtherance of opinions contrary to
their own. Modern history - or, let us say, the description
of events since the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution
- is seen to contain almost countless episodes of bookburnings, prohibitions, and all kinds of strife caused by the
religious-authoritarian imposition placed on free-minded
persons.
Nevertheless, it is still possible, for some reason, to hear
these assaults on books, authors, ideas, and readers be
trivialized to the status of isolated incidents, divorced from
any necessary connection with religion. In fact, history of
the Middle Ages and earlier now regularly portrays monasteries of the catholic church as having been preservers of
learning in a world gone hostile to it; and the role played by
this and other religions in creating the Dark Ages is
forgotten. It is as ifthe assassin who spares a single member
of a household, is suddenly hailed as a saver of life.
Moreover, the average adherent to anyone of today's
religious creeds not only does not see himself as the latest
recruit to an army whose long-standing tradition is hostility
to free knowledge, such persons are often quite unaware of
the very ancient link between their churches and the
practice of forcible suppression.
The fight against, and for, freedom of the press including freedom to read, possess, buy, distribute, print or
originate books - began long before there ever was any
press; that is, centuries prior to the actual invention of
mechanical printing. The development of moveable type
during the middle of the fifteenth century followed the
earlier introduction of presses and printing from carved
wood-blocks, but books themselves had been produced, of
course, as entirely hand-written volumes, back to the dawn
of writing itself. Early on, religion evinced a particular
interest in this written language that could state an individual's knowledge or reasoning long after the author had
vanished. Ideas of the wrong person would, unregulated,
live on and affect unknown numbers of thinkers to come.
Given the opportunity to choose and ponder unimpeded, a
reader might well arrive at conclusions which would disrupt
the fine balance that kept priests and kings in their
privileged positions. Heresy, from a Greek word meaning
choice, became the prime target of attack by censors. As
Richard de Bury, speaking in the early 1300's, said of books:
"These are teachers, whose instructions are unaccompanied with blows or harsh words; who demand neither food
nor wages: you visit them, they are alert; if you want them,
they hide not themselves; should you mistake their meaning, they complain not; nor ridicule your ignorance, be it
ever so gross". Non-authoritarian teachers these - and
dangerous for it - indeed.
By the year 410, Rome had twenty nine public libraries.
Major collections of ancient manuscripts existed in other
centers of civilization, but as darkness - religion-caused
Austin, Texas
June, 1982
Page 25
June, 1982
American Atheists
------
Austin, Texas
June, 1982
Page 27
JD)llAlcAWcA
JD)llAILc'[j'[](]~oA1rlHIlEll1r
1rlHllEll1r
Tucson, Arizona
Sacramento, California
San Francisco, California
Denver, Colorado
Ft. lauderdale, Florida
Tampa/Mr. Petersburg, Fla
Atlanta, Georgia
Chicago, Illinois
Indianapolis, Indiana
lexington, Kentucky
Boston, Massachusetts
Dallas, Texas
(602)
(916)
(415)
(303)
(305)
(813)
(404)
(312)
(812)
(606)
(617)
(214)
CHAPTERS
623-3861
989-3170
974-1750
692-9395
384-8923
577-7154
577-7344
772-8822
425-1949
278-8333
969-2682
690-5327
Tucson, Arizona
THE LIFE AND DEATH
OF A STAR
OF AMERICAN
ATHEISTS
Detroit, Michigan
Mr. louis, Missouri
Northern New Jersey
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Schenectady, New York
Charlotte, North Carolina
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Portland, Oregon
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Houston, Texas
Salt lake City, Utah
Northern Virginia
(512)
(313)
(314)
(201)
(505)
(518)
(704)
(405)
(503)
(412)
(713)
(801)
(703)
458-5731
721-6630
771-8894
777-0766
884-7630
346-1479
568-5346
677-4141
287-6461
734-0509
664-7678
364-4939
370-5255
cists. Whereas the first two stars are understood, the black
hole creates a whole new field of research in physics. At this
time our understanding of matter which has crushed itself
so completely is poor. We can begin our study with general
relativity (see American Atheist Vol. 23, No. 11, p. 20)
because we are dealing with a strong gravitational field. But
Einstein's equations cannot cope with the center of a black
hole. A Nobel prize is waiting for the person who can
explain such a strange place. His or her work will also
contribute to our understanding of the first second of time
of our expanding universe. Super densities are thought to
have existed then just as they do in black holes now. The
researchers have a lot of exciting work ahead of them.
NOTICE
Page 28
Bertha Goodall
IF YOV ARE GA Y AND ATHEIST
PLEASE CONTACT:
Gay Atheists League of America
P.O. Box 14142
San Francisco, CA 94114
Membership: $15.00/year
($10.00/year for students and senior citizens)
Send to the same address for subscriptions to the GALA
Review. Subscriptions $10.00/year; $11.50/year in Canada
and PUAS; elsewhere $12.50/year.
June, 1982
American Atheists
SOMEONE IS LYING !
Perhaps you can help to identify who the culprit(s) is (or are). We have been told repeatedly by our esteemed military and political leaders that
Russia has far greater nuclear superiority than do we! Let's examine this claim for a moment. Many organizations have published the numerical
strength of nuclear devices for both the U.S. and the U .S.S.R. Figures, on occasion, conflict slightly in that Russia "has greater numbers" but that
"ours are more sophisticated" - or vice versa. In fact, so much military rhetoric is used in explanations - depending on the source - that the
average person is left with only a puzzled look and little understanding of the real situation.
What is important is that total efficiency in any given context (destruction of civilization in this instance) is always expressed as 100%efficiency.
Now that's simple to understand, isn't it? In other words 102%,or 150%, or even 2000% is a nonsense term if we know that 100%efficiency will
destroy EVERYTHING that there is to destroy!
Now it has been known for some time that both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. have 100%nuclear destructive capabilities - not only in terms of
destroying each other but in destroying the total of allcivilization (including even a final riddance of roaches)! Using a Simplemathematical process
we can then surmise that if the total nuclear capability of the U.S.S.R. is 100%and the total capability of the U.S. is 100%,then both are equal in
strength! Right?
However, Caspar Weinberger ("Defense" Secretary) and David Jones (Head of Joint Chiefs of Staff) still seem a little confused. Using
expressions like nuclear "momentum" and "superior edge" they continue to imply that Russia can destroy civilization several times over. I don't
know how this claim affects you, but it leaves me a little bit bothered that two such dummies are in control. I don't worry so much about being
incinerated a second, third or fourth time nearly as much as I do the FIRST time. Once you have been barbecued who really cares what happens to
the ashes?
Knowing this about two of our esteemed leaders I begin to be intrigued by their incredible fairy tale press interviews. (I like to study primitive
emotionalism first hand). In a recent interview in Washington* the question was asked of Caspar Weinberger that if, in fact, the Russians had a
"superior edge", would he want to trade our nuclear arsenal for theirs. His reply was quote "I would not want to take over the Soviet arsenal. We
have the capability to take away their superiority and that's what we are trying to do". Keep in mind that only moments earlier he had alluded to
"Russia's superior edge". Keep also in mind our simple arithmetic which assures us that 100%destructive capability is exactly that - 100%.Mr.
Jones stated that he would not want to "swap" either but still he personally is involved with the idea of the construction of additional weaponry.
To some people their statements may seem confusing and a bit perplexing. But, to a person of normal intelligence, one thing rings through quite
clearly and quite understandably - they are both LIARS.
Gerald Tholen
L-
a
'+-
PJ
...
...,
a;
('0
Vl
""0
('0
a;
("')
L-
,....
>
:J
c
a;
.c
...
(JO
PJ
:J
('0
,....
Vl
o
...
PJ
CT
...
a;
Q..
o
...
--
...,
a;
('0
..0
E
a;
tJl
tJl
ro
...o
~
..0
ro
OJ
Q..
OJ
Q..
oa;
Q..
a;
.s:
...
'+-
a
a...,
,:J
""0
...,
o
Robert Taylor
OJ
u
ro
(JO
:r
CT
,....
:J
(JO
,....
:r
('0