(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-8-2010

2978
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
07-CR-543 (DLI)
U.S. Courthouse
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v.
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Brooklyn, New York
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RUSSELL DEFREITAS,
ABDUL KADIR,
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Defendants.
July 8, 2010
9:45 o'clock a.m.
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TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
BEFORE THE HONORABLE DORA L. IRIZARRY
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
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APPEARANCES:
For the Government:
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Assistant U.S. Attorneys

271 Cadman Plaza East
Brooklyn, New York 11201
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LORETTA E. LYNCH
United States Attorney
By: MARSHALL MILLER
BERIT BERGER
ZAINAB AHMAD
JASON JONES
For the Defendants:
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FEDERAL DEFENDERS
By: MILDRED WHALEN, ESQ.
LEN KAMDANG, ESQ.
For Russell Defreitas
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KAFAHNI NKRUMAH, ESQ.
TONI MESSINA, ESQ.
For Abdul Kadir
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Court Reporter:
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Anthony M. Mancuso
225 Cadman Plaza East
Brooklyn, New York 11201
(718) 613-2419
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript

produced by CAT.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
2979
1
(Trial resumed.)
(In open court; jury not present.)
THE COURT:
Is everyone ready?
MR. JONES:
The government is ready.
MS. WHALEN:
THE COURT:
Ready, your Honor.

Why don't we bring the witness in and
put him on the stand, and we'll go get the jury.
MR. JONES:
MS. MESSINA:
Yes, your Honor.

A matter of information for you.
It
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looks like defense will start crossing today.
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the Court know I will start, and if we have to switch gears in
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terms of equipment, we will need a break.
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THE COURT:
MS. MESSINA:
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MS. MESSINA:
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THE COURT:
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MS. MESSINA:
I thought you said you were not
I never said that.

That's my distinct memory.
I never said that.
I would ask if the Court would grant
me that ability to be able to start the cross-examination.

MS. WHALEN:
Your Honor, I also thought, when you
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asked us to arrange the cross-examination, I'm sorry, I
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thought that's what you meant, as well.
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The
opposed to whatever order we wanted to go in.

THE COURT:
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What do you mean you will start?
cross-examination starts with Defreitas.
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I wanted to let
THE COURT:
That's not what I meant.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
I meant each
2980
1
team should decide among themselves who is going to do it, but
the procedure is lead defendant goes first.
I've said before, Don't change up the procedure on your own.

MS. MESSINA:
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I apologize.
I don't know.
That was my
understanding.
THE COURT:
You always have a misunderstanding,
Ms. Messina.
I don't understand.
listen closely enough to the things that I say.

MS. MESSINA:
I don't think that you
Judge, I apologize.
I think it was
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Ms. Whalen's misunderstanding, as well.
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had had the cross-examination of Dawood, and the Court
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specifically instructed how they would not permit me to cross
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after -- on the same subject matter that Ms. Whalen crossed
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on.
THE COURT:
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Okay.
It was right after we
I never said to change up the order.
That was not what I was discussing.

MS. MESSINA:
I'm asking the Court, in light of this
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misunderstanding and the fact that I prepared to do the
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cross-examination and I don't know if Ms. Whalen is completely
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prepared to start today, that I be permitted to start.
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THE COURT:
It's
not going to happen again.
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MS. MESSINA:
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THE COURT:
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I'm going to allow it this once.
Thank you, your Honor.

And I would appreciate it, if you have
any question, that you ask me first.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
But that sidebar had
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nothing to do with the order of questioning.
with the substance of the questioning.

MS. MESSINA:
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that.
Court --
It was after the sidebar.
THE COURT:
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Ms. Messina, the Court has the last
MS. MESSINA:
Thank you.
I also wanted to alert the Court that
we need to shift equipment.
So, we need a break after the
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People finish with the witness.
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THE COURT:
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MS. MESSINA:
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THE COURT:
After the government gets done?

Yes, your Honor.
The other thing:
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Blackberries, shut them off.
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microphones.
Any cell phones,
Get them away from the
I'm going to remind you again, with the laptops, you
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I was not referring to
It was after the end of the
word, and I'm done with this area.
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I understand.
It had to do
can use word processing.

The government, I guess if you're going to need the
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podium.
That's fine.
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podium.
But no Internet, because if I find out that Internet
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is being used, the equipment will be confiscated for the rest
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of the day.
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MS. MESSINA:
You'll hook up your equipment to the
Judge, one other technical question.
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I may be playing CD's that Mr. Francis hasn't reviewed with
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the government.
In order for him to be able to identify it
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
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before it's played to the jury, so that he can listen to it by
himself, is there a way we can do that so he can identify it
and we can enter it as evidence before we play it for the
jury?
THE COURT:
I don't understand.
Why wasn't this
done in advance?
We don't meet on Fridays.
I don't
understand why you didn't do this yesterday, knowing that the
cross-examination was going to start today.
yesterday, that the cross-examination was going to start
We knew this
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today, and now you're proposing that we take a break before
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you play the tapes?

MS. MESSINA:
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No, your Honor.
I'm merely saying
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there may be some CD's that are not in evidence, and I have
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not had access to Mr. Francis, to know if he would recognize
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them.
(Jury present.)
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S T E V E N
F R A N C I S, recalled as a witness, having
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been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:
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THE COURT:
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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
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THE JURY:
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THE WITNESS:
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THE COURT:
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energy.
Everyone may be seated.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I like that.
Everybody sounds full of
That's good.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Francis - direct - Jones

Do the parties agree that all of our jurors are
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present and properly seated?
MR. JONES:
MR. NKRUMAH:
MS. WHALEN:
THE COURT:
continued.
of Mr. Steven Francis.
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
This is the government's case in chief
This is a continuation of the direct examination
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THE WITNESS:
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THE COURT:
Good morning.
I remind you that you are still under
oath.
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THE WITNESS:
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THE COURT:
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Yes, your Honor.
Good morning, sir.
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Yes.
And you may continue, Mr. Jones, when
you are ready.
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MR. JONES:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
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BY MR. JONES:
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Good morning, Mr. Francis.
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Good morning.
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When we left off yesterday, we were in the middle of one
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of the lengthy recordings between you, Russell Defreitas and
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Kareem Ibrahim?
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Yes.
MR. JONES:
I'm going to ask, with the Court's
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

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permission, if the jury can pull out their binders.
THE COURT:
While you're at it, you might as well pull out our
monitors.
224-T, page 61.
Mr. Francis?
Do you have that in front of you,
Yes.
MR. JONES:
Do we have permission to continuing
playing the exhibit that's in evidence?

THE COURT:
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We'll be using them at some point.
Back to 224-T, and we're going to move ahead to page 61.
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Yes.
Yes.
We're going to pick up at line 6.
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(Tape plays.)
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(Tape stops.)
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is very difficult to hear; is that right?
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Yes.
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Can you tell where we are in the transcript?
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finished talking about "checking my luggage" on line ten.
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that where we are?
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Mr. Francis, again, this is Mr. Ibrahim -- this recording
He just
Is
Yes.
MR. JONES:
If anybody else has a problem with their
headphones, we'll switch them out.

Your Honor, a couple of jurors had questions, and I
didn't want to address them.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

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THE COURT:
Is anybody having problems with their
MR. JONES:
Okay.
headset?
If it's the track wheel, click it
on.
You'll see a little number in the hole there.
the number, the louder the volume.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
The bigger
He says there that he's going to secure it?
Yes.
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What is he going to secure?
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The prints from Google Earth, as well as the video of JFK
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Airport.
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This is going to get left behind in Trinidad?
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Yes.
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MR. JONES:
Picking up at line 24.
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(Tape plays.)
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(Tape stops.)
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Mr. Francis, during this conversation with Kareem
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Ibrahim, as he's talking on the tape with Mr. Defreitas, is
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this before or after he's told about the details of the idea
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to attack the airport?
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After he was told of the idea to attack the airport.
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There's a discussion here about "It's a risky thing" --
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this is at the bottom of page 62 --
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bring out Abu Bakr."
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
"It's a risky thing to
2986
Why was it risky to bring Abu Bakr into the plot.
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Abu Bakr was facing charges in Trinidad and also wanted
elsewhere, and Sheik Mohammed was warned that he may have --
Abu Bakr had people infiltrating in the camp, actually
bringing a level of sensitivity to Sheik Mohammed as well as
others, and Sheik Mohammed was -- he told me that if we would
have went to the camp, we could have that -- actually been
arrested.
What camp, when you say that camp?
10
Meaning the mosque where Abu Bakr has his JAM.
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There's a discussion on page 63 about Ibrahim says, at
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the top, "We got to find a buyer."
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support financially the JFK plot.
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conversation, had anybody advanced large sums of money to buy
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the explosives and whatnot?
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No.
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And Rutherford, was he still available to provide
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explosives and dynamite?
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No.
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Ibrahim continues during the conversation, and he talks
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about, on page 65, there's a discussion of the price.
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the price -- what's it the price of?
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A buyer for what?
It's going to be the person or the entity who is going to
Did -- at the point that you are having this
Is this
That would be the monies to be funding the JFK attack.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2987
Earlier, I believe yesterday, you testified to the jury
about the recording in your truck when Mr. Defreitas says,
"Woo, woo, wait till Nero and Rutherford hear about Abu Bakr."
Do you remember that testimony.
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Yes.
At the time you said that, Mr. Defreitas was excited
about Abu Bakr; is that correct?
Yes.
What has changed here?
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He just got information that Abu Bakr had possible ties
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with the government of Trinidad, and if we were -- if Mohammed
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and I were to present a project like this to him, being the
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fact that he was facing charges and he was in need of
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political advancement in Trinidad, he would even give us up to
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attain his goals.
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have any views or express any views while you were there about
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whether or not it was safe to approach Abu Bakr with this
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idea?
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Yes.
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Is that it?
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other options pursued?
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It was other options pursued.
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What other options, what other paths did you discuss?
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Well, as Sheik Ibrahim mentioned later on, he actually
So that Kareem Ibrahim, who you are meeting with, did he
He thought that it was not safe in all.

Was that the end of the road, or were there
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2988
was saying that he'll contact his contacts which are in
England and as well as in Iran, and he mentioned that there
was a brother, a very connected brother in England, that he
was very acquainted with him, that he will ask him to travel
back to Trinidad so they can discuss further the plot and to
send him as a scout as to Iran to touch bases with his
connection in Iran in relation to the JFK plot.
this new avenue, to go to Iran with Kareem Ibrahim, was a good
Did Mr. Defreitas tell you whether or not he thought that
10
idea or bad idea?
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Nur and Abdul Kadir.
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Mohammed, Abdel Nur and I would have went to JAM, which is Abu
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Bakr's mosque, and displayed to him the JFK plot, we actually
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could have been even murdered or put in jail for the rest of
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our lives.
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Kareem, and he sounded like he was a connected guy and he was
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the real thing.
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He shared it with Abdel
It was the best decision he made.
If
It was safer, actually, to deal with Ibrahim
If you could turn to Tab 225-T.

MR. JONES:
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He thought it was the best idea.
Your Honor, this is already in evidence.
I request permission to play a portion of the audio.

THE COURT:
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Yes.
You may proceed.
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If you can turn to the page number two at the bottom.
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We'll start at the top of the page, where it says
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"Conversation 1: 10:34."
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
2989
If Abu Bakr was such a dangerous character, and the group
had decided it may be too dangerous to go down that road,
continue down that road, why are you having a conversation
still with Abdel Nur about Abu Bakr?
about our stay in Trinidad, and just to make sure that if
Abdel Nur had spoke to him about a plot or he just said there
Yes.
First, the concern was, what did Abu Bakr know
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are two brothers here, just, you know, they are here on a
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conference or they are here looking for a masjid.
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report back accurate and to find information.
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told us there that he has not only told Abu Bakr, that we was
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in Trinidad to see him, but he also had somewhat explained the
15
plot.
I needed to
And he actually
And as we see, also, there was an expressive --
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Abdel Nur expressed this.
He said there that he felt that Abu
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Bakr had the means to produce the plot, and we should still go
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to him and express to him the plot.
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On the contrary, at this moment --
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MR. NKRUMAH:
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Objection, your Honor, asked and
answered.
THE COURT:
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Overruled.
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Go ahead.
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At this moment, not only the concern was safety, but also
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
2990
concern in the differences between Sunnis' Islam and Shiite
Islam.
the middle of the page.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
If you could turn to page three, second conversation in
Just to set this up, Mr. Francis:
on the phone with?
Sheik Abdul Kadir.
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Can we hear what Kadir says, the other side of the
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conversation?
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No.
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Why not?
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The speaker phone was not on at the time.
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You're picking up the conversation through the body wire?
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That's correct.
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(Tape plays.)
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(Tape stops.)
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(Continued on next page.)
Who is Mr. Defreitas
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ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Francis-direct-Jones
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EXAMINATION CONTINUES
BY
MR. JONES:
MR. JONES:
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Mr. Francis.
line three.
There is some back and forth there,
We are now at the top of page ten, at around
(Tape plays; tape stops.)
MR. JONES:
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Okay.
We are at the top of page 12 now.
Mr. Francis, if we can back up and discuss a
little bit of what just happened.

You told us earlier that DeFreitas telephoned Kadir
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and you couldn't hear the other side of the conversation.

Is that right?
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14
Yes.
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If we go to page six of the transcript, this is when the
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phone call with Mr. Kadir started, is that correct?
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Yes.
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Mr. DeFreitas says that everything has to stop in the
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direction we started to the chicken farm and that there is bad
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feed needed to divert into another area.
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What does that mean?
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He meant that the direction going to Sheik Abu Bakr to
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present the matter of the JFK plot wasn't a wise idea anymore.
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It was very risky.
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This is what you are hearing DeFreitas telling Kadir, is
GR
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2992
that correct?
That is correct.
There is a long discussion by Mr. DeFreitas and he says I
don't want to go that route anymore.

That being Abu Bakr, is that right?
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Yes.
He says everything is going to be all right with us now,
on page seven.
Why is everything going to be all right?
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10
MR. NKRUMAH:
Objection, Your Honor.
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MR. JONES:
I can rephrase.
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THE COURT:
Sustained as to form.
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MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
14
You are participating in this conversation, is that
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correct?
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Yes.
17
Did you have conversations with Mr. DeFreitas about how
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he believed the plot to be going at this point?
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Yes.
20
And whether or not things were going to work out even
21
though Abu Bakr was too dangerous at this point?
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Yes.
23
Why was it going to be all right?
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Because the route that he has chosen now, the route that
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he's chosen now, which is Ibrahim Kareem, was a less risky or
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2993
there was no risk at that moment on the route.
So he -- it be
fair to go that route and being the fact that Ibrahim Kareem
had mentioned that he was well connected in England and Iran.
your conversations with Mr. Kadir -- and we will listen to
some on the tapes -- Mr. Kadir gave you some instructions on
how you should behave carefully around Abu Bakr, is that
right?
Yes.
10
Based on your conversations with Mr. Kadir, did his view
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align with that of Mr. Ibrahim, which is to say Abu Bakr might
12
be dangerous?
13
Yes, definitely.
14
And that Abu Bakr maybe shouldn't be the one to approach
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now?
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Yes.
17
If you look at the bottom of page eight, DeFreitas says,
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so that's what --
You testified I believe yesterday that during some of
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Kadir says, he is not going to do this.
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Based on your -- based on your participation in
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these conversations, who is he when it says he is not going --
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he is not good, he is not doing this?
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This is Abu Bakr.
24
What did that have to do with Kadir?
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Kadir has informed us before that Abu Bakr was a
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2994
nationalist and he was more in tune with the matters that
happen in Trinidad.
might have changed, now it is for you guys to find out.
said I know he's well rooted with people like Muammar Khadafi
in Libya.
being the fact that he was facing charges at the moment, he --
it may make -- it may be a little questionable whether he will
be interested right now in this type of project or not.
Even though that he said I don't know, he

He
But because of the level of sensitivity around him,
After Mr. DeFreitas tells Mr. Kadir that we are not going
10
to Abu Bakr, we are going to try this other avenue, did
11
Mr. DeFreitas tell you whether or not Mr. Kadir was happy or
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not happy about this?
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MR. NKRUMAH:
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THE COURT:
Objection.
Overruled.
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Did he tell you whether or not he was happy or not happy
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about this?
17
Yes.
18
What did Mr. DeFreitas say about that?
19
That he was happy because he had aligned with Abdul Kadir
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with the same thoughts.
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he is happy this morning, very happy, what I just told him.
At the bottom of page 14, where Mr. DeFreitas says, and
Who is that?
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24
Page number again?
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I'm sorry.
GR
Bottom of page 14.
OCR
CM
It says he is happy.
CRR
CSR
On
2995
the top of the next page, very happy, with what I just told
him.
Who is happy?
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4
Abdul Kadir.
MR. JONES:
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6
We are going to pick up in the middle of
the page, in the new conversation.
MR. JONES:
I'm sorry, Judge.
I think we have a
headphone issue.
10
Some of those are recirculating.
11
THE COURT:
12
You have another person over here, juror
number seven.
13
MR. JONES:
Okay.
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15
Okay, Mr. Francis, if you could turn back to page 17.
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Other than the musical accompaniment there it says that --
17
this is when Kadir will come in.
18
is one of the things that, where Kadir will come in.
Line 21, page 17, well, this
Did you have discussions with Mr. DeFreitas about
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20
how Kadir could assist in this?
21
Yes.
22
What is -- where will Kadir come in?
23
Actually, he was trying to -- he was waiting for his
24
connections in Venezuela and Iran to actually partake and
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which has -- was told to hold on that because of the
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What can he do?
CSR
2996
sensitivity of the matter and later on he will actually make
available his bank account to be used as -- as a place for the
monies to go if the party that will be the investors of the
JFK plot or the supporters of it agree on it.
bank account, is that right?
Yes.
Whose bank account were you going too use?
Kadir's bank account.
10
Did you ever discuss this with the defendant Kadir?
11
Yes.
12
Did you tell him you wanted to use one of his bank
13
accounts?
If you had gotten money from some investor, you needed a
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MS. MESSINA:
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THE COURT:
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MS. MESSINA:
Objection.
Overruled.
The time, when it was discussed.
17
About ten minutes after the conversation we just heard,
18
did you have a conversation with Mr. Kadir where you told him
19
we want to use your bank account for this plot?
20
Yes.
21
If you could turn to page 24, please?

Do you speak with Mr. Kadir during this portion of
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23
the transcript?
24
25
That is correct.
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MR. JONES:
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of the page here.
2997
We are picking up at around the middle
It's going to -- Kadir just answered.
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Now, Mr. Francis, you just finished telling us that
Mr. Kadir agreed to let you use the mosque bank account for
funds if the group would get funds, is that right?
Yes.
He says that there is a condition.
Yes.
10
Is that right?
11
Yes.
12
What's the condition upon which he would agree to let the
13
plotters use the bank account?
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plot will be -- it will be only used for that purpose.
Condition is that the money that is funded for the JFK
16
MS. MESSINA:
17
THE COURT:
Objection, Judge.
Overruled.
18
Did -- did Mr. Kadir tell you whether -- how could you
19
make sure that was true?

In other words, did somebody have to -- was it up to
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you or was it up to the sponsor?
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will go in his bank account or not.
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25
sponsor, yes, if the sponsor agrees we can transfer it to the
It was up to the sponsor to actually agree if the money
When Mr. Kadir on page 25 says, with permission of the
GR
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2998
mosque account.
That's correct, yes.
It being what?
The money of the funding of the JFK plot.
If you could flip -- move to page 32?

The discussion with you and Ibrahim and
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Mr. DeFreitas, is that right, and Abdel Nur?
Yes.
There is more discussion of the logistics of the plot, is
10
that fair to say?
11
Yes.
12
MR. JONES:
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14
15
226 T?
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17
We are going to pick up at line 12.
Mr. Francis, if you could turn in your book to tab number
THE COURT:
Before you go there, why don't we take
our mid-morning break?
18
MR. JONES:
Yes, Your Honor.
19
THE COURT:
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, we
20
will take a break for about ten minutes or so,
21
fifteen minutes, by 11:15.
22
Remember, please, to keep an open mind.
Don't form
23
or draw any conclusions about anything that you have heard or
24
seen in connection with this case here in the courtroom.
25
Remember that you cannot discuss this case among yourselves or
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2999
with anyone else.
cellphones during the break.
at, listen to or view or hear anything that might be connected
with this case.
5
6
Remember that you cannot use your
All right.
You cannot do any research, look
We will resume shortly, around 11:15,
just so that you can guide yourself.
The jury is exiting.
(The following occurred in the absence of the jury.)
THE COURT:
Mr. Francis, you can have a break too.
10
We will resume at 11:15.
11
Thank you.
12
Stand in recess.
13
(Recess taken.)
14
You can relax, at ease.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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3000
THE COURT:
Are we all set?
MR. JONES:
Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT:
Mr. Jones, how much more do you think
6
7
8
9
Can we send for the
jury?
you have on direct?

MR. JONES:
around there.
An hour to an hour and a half, somewhere
Maybe closer to an hour.
THE COURT:
I don't think the lunch is going to
10
arrive until about 1:00.
It may mean that they just get a
11
little bit more of a lunch break, and that will give the
12
defense a chance to set up during that time.
13
(Jury present.)
14
THE COURT:
15
16
17
Everyone, please be seated.
Welcome
back, ladies and gentlemen.

Do all of the parties agree that all of our jurors
are present and properly seated?
18
MR. JONES:
19
MR. NKRUMAH:
20
MS. WHALEN:
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
Yes, your Honor.
21
22
MS. MESSINA:
23
THE COURT:
24
This is continued direct examination by the
25
Yes, your Honor.

Thank you.
government of Mr. Francis.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Mr. Francis, once again, I remind you that you are
1
2
3001
still under the oath.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Yes.
Members of the jury, I know that I have
given you this instruction now many, many times since the
trial started, but just a reminder, with respect to the
recordings and the transcript, it is the recording that is in
evidence.
what controls.
Whatever you hear from the recording is actually

If it's different from the transcript, the
10
transcript is simply offered as an aid to help you follow
11
along.
12
from point to point.
13
different, it's what you believe you're hearing from the
14
recording itself.
As you can hear, the quality of the recording varies

If you believe you hear something
15
As I said to you earlier, during your deliberations,
16
at any point in time if you feel that you would like to hear a
17
conversation again, then we can certainly play it back for
18
you, or part of it, whatever it is that you would like to hear
19
again.
Forgive the interruption, Mr. Jones.
20
21
You may
inquire when you are ready.

MR. JONES:
22
23
BY MR. JONES:
24
Hello again, Mr. Francis.
25
Hello.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
five.
We were about to play 226-T.
MR. JONES:
3
4
3002
If you would go to page
Do we have permission to play the audio,
which is already in evidence?

THE COURT:
5
6
two?
Yes.
Are you with us, Mr. Francis, page five, at the top, line
Yes.
(Tape plays.)
10
(Tape stops.)
11
Mr. Francis, there's a lot of UI's in the transcript,
12
unintelligibles.
13
saying?
14
Yes.
15
We just finished at line three, page eight.
16
Yes.
It's hard to understand what Mr. Ibrahim is
17
(Tape plays.)
18
(Tape stops.)
19
Mr. Francis, just for clarity, this was a discussion of
20
Tobago?
21
Yes.
22
What is Tobago, and why are you talking about it?
23
Tobago is a part of Trinidad.
24
Tobago is a more tourist area.
25
pertaining to any businesses to be opened, taking advantage of
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
It's Trinidad and Tobago.
And this discussion is
3003
the high flow of tourists.
So, they have interest in opening
an Internet cafe that may have a great impact in the economy.
Okay.
(Tape plays.)
(Tape stops.)
Mr. Francis, there's a discussion here where Ibrahim says
"You can't travel with a plan because..."
And Mr. Defreitas says
You end up responding
"Deadly, too deadly."

"Okay."
What does this discussion refer to.
10
11
Meaning that Sheik Ibrahim Kareem has mentioned before
12
that we shouldn't travel with the Google Earth prints as well
13
as the video, for the level of sensitivity and the high impact
14
of the matter.
And so that he will have the person travel to
15
16
Trinidad, brief him about the contents of the Google Earth
17
prints of the JFK Airport as well as the video, and then take
18
him to Trinidad and Tobago, where he will observe the prints
19
of the JFK and the understanding of the video and the JFK
20
plot.
21
22
says that
23
plan to Tobago?
24
25
Trinidad was facing at that point.
So, when it says
-- it's a little confusing
-- when it
"to bring the plan to Tobago," who is bringing the
Ibrahim Kareem's concern about the level of security that
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
He felt that or he
3004
mentioned that he will take the prints as well as the video of
the JFK Airport to Trin
safe, and left there as a protection.
that he needs no less than five, six men.
carried out with expert men, and he did not want more than
five or six trained men to carry out a multiple attack at the
JFK Airport.
10
And a little earlier, on page ten, Mr. Defreitas said

For what?
Sheik Mohammed always mentioned about the plot being
We'll resume the tape.
11
(Tape plays.)
12
(Tape stops.)
13
MR. JONES:
14
-- to Tobago, so actually it could be
So everybody is on the same page:
Around line 13 on page 12.
15
(Tape plays.)
16
(Tape stops.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3005
BY
portion that the jury just heard about where Ibrahim is
describing to you the brother from England who is going to
travel.
Yes.
Do you recall hearing that?
Yes.
10
The brother from England, is that what you testified to
11
earlier, this connection in England?
12
Yes.
13
He is traveling to Tobago, is that correct?
MR. JONES:
Okay.
Mr. Francis, there is discussion during the
14
Where is he traveling to?
15
Trinidad, Tobago?
16
Where?
17
Ibrahim Kareem had mentioned that the brother in England,
18
it was native from Trinidad.
19
the -- the brother will be traveling to Trinidad and then into
20
Tobago.
21
meaning Ibrahim Kareem need to brief the contact in England,
22
and then to go through Tobago and actually see the printouts
23
of the JFK plot and the videos as well.
24
25
to Tobago, that's the printouts you just mentioned about the
So what he told us is that
And then the reason why is that he need to brief him,
When there are references to Ibrahim taking the document
GR
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3006
airport?
That is correct.
If you could, please turn to 227 T?
start at the bottom of page three, at 18 minutes and 27 --
26 seconds.
Yes.
By the way, before we begin this, do you know where you
are when this recording is made?
We are going to
What country you are in?
9
10
Give me a second to look at that.
11
Sure.
(Pause.)
12
13
Would you like to play a little bit of the clip?
14
Sure.
We will start at 18:26 and it may become clear.
15
16
Yes.
17
18
19
this is quite difficult to hear?
20
25
We will try for the jury to keep it --
the volume down but it is difficult.

23
24
Yes.
MR. JONES:
21
22
Mr. Francis, as we go on, is it fair to say the audio on
He mentions the brother who is very devious there.

Who is that?
GR
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3007
Who is the devious brother?
1
2
Yes.
discussing the matter and we are back in the States and we are
speaking -- meaning Sheik Mohammed and myself -- and we are
talking to Abdul Kadir on the phone.

Will you repeat the question, please?
6
7
Yes.
Mr. DeFreitas in the middle of page five says the
8
9
10
Previously you asked me where were we actually
brother is very devious and he'll take bits of the chicken

farm and he'll get you -- yourself in a situation.
What is that -- who is the brother who is very
11
12
devious?
13
He meant Abu Bakr.
14
This is what you discussed earlier about being afraid of
15
Abu Bakr now?
16
Yes.
17
18
MR. JONES:
19
blank page there.
We are in
the middle of page ten now.

20
21
22
this audio.
23
There is a
Mr. Francis, we only have a couple of more minutes of
The conversation that we just heard between
24
Mr. DeFreitas and Mr. Kadir, you are standing there recording
25
it at the time, is that right?
GR
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3008
Yes.
There is a lot of discussion by Mr. DeFreitas about
someone who impressed him and he calls him the Sheik.

Who is that?
4
5
Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
When on page seven in the middle of the page
Mr. DeFreitas says you lose your spot, we respond to it right
away and that resolved a lot of problems.

Mr. Kadir says, okay, good, good.
DeFreitas says, I am very grateful and -- all I
10
11
concern is getting this thing going.
12
What is he grateful for?
13
MR. NKRUMAH:
14
THE COURT:
Objection.
Overruled.
15
Can you repeat the question again?
16
Yes.
You said you participated -- you were there for this
17
18
conversation, correct?
19
That is correct.
20
You have been there for the meetings with Ibrahim Kareem;
21
is that correct?
22
Yes.
23
You had had discussions with Mr. DeFreitas about how he
24
felt about those meetings, is that right?
25
Yes.
GR
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3009
So when he says that his concern is getting this thing
going, what does that mean?
and not so much concern who do it.
that's why he was relying on Kadir and his connections and he
was relying on Sheik Abdel Kareem -- Ibrahim Kareem as -- and
his connections and he was also hoping that that would be
carried out as soon as possible.
Towards --
10
Meaning Sheik Mohammed.
11
Towards the bottom of the same page, page seven, line 36,
12
Mr. DeFreitas says, when you think one door closes, another
13
door open, you know.
The interest of Sheik Mohammed was to get the plot moving

He want it done now so
14
Mr. Kadir says, right, right, right.
15
What door had closed?
16
The door of Abu Bakr as an option and has opened the door
17
of Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
18
19
couple of pages.
20
I will ask you to jump forward in this transcript just a

Go to page 17 at the top.
Yes.
21
22
Mr. Francis, Mr. DeFreitas in the portion of the audio
23
you just heard told Mr. Kadir that the fish fond and the
24
chicken farm will cost a million dollars to purchase and asked
25
if that sounds like a good price to you.
GR
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3010
What does Mr. Kadir say in response to that?
1
2
He's saying that he need to look into the matter because,
again, this project of the JFK plot is -- is a project of a
great magnitude.
in terms of how much it will cost to build.
He says I haven't given it -- I haven't given it thought
Is that correct?
7
8
That is correct.
He says we can see, we can look at it; correct?
10
Yes.
11
Then Mr. DeFreitas suggests that I don't think we should
12
jump the gun but I think that will be -- that it will be
13
available, referring to the million dollars.
14
Kadir says, yes, that's good.
15
Is that correct?
That's the direction.
16
Yes.
17
Mr. Francis, for the last I guess three days now, three
18
full days of testimony, you have told the jury about meetings
19
and phone calls.
We have listened to all these tapes.
How many meetings -- over the course of the year you
20
21
have described, how many meanings do you think you had
22
discussing a plot to blow up the airport?
23
Several meetings.
24
Do you remember the exact date of every meeting that you
25
had in this case?
GR
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3011
No.
Some of those meetings were in 2006, is that right?
That is correct.
The call we just listened to you testified was in May of
2007, the very end of May, is that right?
Yes.
After -- let's say -- let's move to July of 2007.
jump forward a month.
So
Okay?
After July of 2007, did you have any further
9
10
meetings with either of the defendants in this case about a
11
plot to blow up the airport?
12
13
No.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
BY MR. JONES:
Now
-MR. JONES:
3012
Your Honor, before I move to another
topic, I just want to offer two more audio sessions, which I
have discussed with defendant's counsel for Mr. Defreitas.
It's Government's Exhibits 229 and 230.

Those respond to -- I'm not going to play the audio
7
8
right now, but those correspond to -- 229 corresponds to 41,
Session 1, and 230 corresponds to
10
ID 81 --
11
THE COURT:
I'm sorry.
12
MR. JONES:
230 refers to ID 81, Session 4.
13
230, you mean?

And the
jurors can put their transcript binders down now.
14
THE COURT:
Are you offering those in evidence?
15
MR. JONES:
I believe without objection, I offer 229
16
and 230 into evidence.
17
MS. WHALEN:
18
MR. NKRUMAH:
No objection.
There is an objection.
19
spoken to the government about these recordings.
20
nothing about these recordings.
21
MS. WHALEN:
22
THE COURT:
23
(Sidebar.)
24
MR. JONES:
25
We have not
We know
Can we approach?
Yes.
Your Honor, these are the tapes that the
defense asked to put in.
We are putting them in on our case
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
in chief to moot the issue.
hearsay issue.
MS. WHALEN:
These are on ECF.
3013
We mooted the
It was the first argument that we had
about in limine, where the government asked us to identify
tapes.
THE COURT:
MS. WHALEN:
The May 3 motions?

Or something around there.
And my
understanding was that they were going to introduce Session
84.
10
Then they changed their mind, so we offered it on a
different basis.
The second one is the one that I sent over the
11
12
weekend; again, ID 41, Session 1.
This is the one that
13
corresponds in the car to the video that's already come in as
14
GX 50.
15
were taking.
It's the view in the car of the videotapes that they
16
THE COURT:
17
MS. WHALEN:
Inside the car?

Inside.
At the same time, it's
18
contemporaneous, and the government agreed, so that issue was
19
mooted on Monday or Tuesday.
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. NKRUMAH:
22
THE COURT:
23
(In open court.)
24
MR. NKRUMAH:
25
No objection?
Yes, your Honor.
We'll just put that on record.
Your Honor, after discussion at the
bench, there's no objection.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

THE COURT:
1
2
3014
So, Exhibits 229 and 230 are in
evidence.
(So marked.)
MR. JONES:
BY MR. JONES:
-- about a week ago, you told the jury that before you were
recruited by the FBI to be an informant, you had committed
other crimes; is that correct?
Mr. Francis, at the very beginning of your testimony on
10
Yes.
11
What was the first crime that you were convicted of?
12
Drug trafficking and racketeering.
13
Have you committed other crimes that you were never
14
convicted of?
15
Yes.
16
Other drug dealing?
17
Yes.
18
Do you have a DUI?
19
Yes.
20
Use of false identifications in your past?
21
Yes.
22
Have you filed income tax returns every year?
23
No.
24
Drive around in stolen cars?
25
Yes.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3015
Did you get in fights?
Yes.
Including fights in jail?
Yes.
Have you been around guns in your life?
Yes.
Does that have any relationship with your drug dealing?
Yes.
Have you used drugs yourself in the past?
10
Yes.
11
The first drug-trafficking crime that you were convicted
12
of, around what year was that?
13
1994.
14
How old were you in 1994?
15
Twenty-three.
16
Was that a federal crime or state crime?
17
It was a federal crime.
18
Have you ever heard of the word "racketeering"?
19
Yes.
20
Were you also charged with racketeering?
21
Yes.
22
Did that have to do with a drug gang?
23
Yes.
24
You sold drugs for a gang?
25
Yes.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3016
A racketeering enterprise?
Yes.
In connection with that, in the mid-'90s, early '90s, did
you also participate in acts of violence?
Yes.
Were you convicted, in fact, of an act of violence
related to that?
Yes.
What was that?
10
An attempted murder.
11
Who was the victim of this attempted murder?
12
It was the leader of the -- another gang.
13
Another drug dealer?
14
Yes.
15
What was your role generally in that attempted murder?
16
What did you do?
17
I was the getaway car driver.
18
And someone tried to kill this rival drug dealer?
19
Yes.
20
Did you go to trial on those charges?
21
No.
22
Did you plead guilty?
23
Yes.
24
Were you, in fact, guilty?
25
Yes.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3017
Did you do all that?
Yes.
Did you have any agreements with the government in the
'90s about that?
Yes.
Did you cooperate with them?
Yes.
How much time were you facing after you pled guilty in
that case?
10
Up to twenty-five to life.
11
How much time did you serve?
12
Seven years.
13
Did you provide information to the authorities when you
14
were cooperating back then?
15
Yes.
16
You served seven years in a federal prison?
17
Yes.
18
When you got out of prison, were you under any
19
supervision of any kind?
20
Yes.
21
Was the court supervising you?
22
Yes.
23
Probation Department?
24
Yes.
25
Are there rules on probation?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3018
Yes.
Did you follow those rules?
No.
In fact, you started dealing drugs again, didn't you?
Yes.
And did you get caught?
Yes.
About what year was that when you got caught again?
2002, at the end of 2002.
10
Not long after you got out of jail?
11
Yes.
12
What kind of drugs were you caught with?
13
Cocaine.
14
How much?
15
Five kilograms of cocaine.
16
In a bag of some sort?
17
Yes.
18
Is it fair to say that's worth a lot of money?
19
Yes.
20
Who approached you, was it the NYPD or the Feds?
21
came up to you?
22
The NYPD.
23
When they approached you, did you confess, did you say,
24
Oh, you got me, I'm a drug dealer?
25
Who
No.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3019
What did you do instead?
I told them I found the bag on the floor.
You found the bag?
Yes.
That was not true?
That was not true.
Did you eventually confess to being a drug dealer again?
Yes.
And based on the information that they had, do you know
10
if the state police or the NYPD ended up finding more drugs --
11
finding more drugs?
12
Yes.
13
How much drugs did they find?
14
Forty-nine kilos of cocaine.
15
Forty-nine more kilos?
16
Yes.
17
These drugs, did they belong to you?
18
No.
19
But you were part of the conspiracy, the agreement, to
20
deal them; is that right?
21
That's correct.
22
Because of that, you were held accountable for it; is
23
that right?
24
Yes.
25
You mentioned that this was the state authorities that
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3020
arrested you, and I believe at the beginning of your testimony
on Thursday, you told the jury that you have an agreement with
the New York City -- the state office of Special Narcotics; is
that right?
Yes.
THE COURT:
That's a city agency?
MR. JONES:
I'm sorry, yes, your Honor.
The New York City Special Narcotics; is that right?
Yes.
10
Do you have any type of agreement with the Special
11
Narcotics prosecutor's office?
12
I'm sorry?
13
Do you have an agreement with that office?
14
Yes.
15
Did you go to trial on those charges?
16
No.
17
You pled guilty?
18
Yes.
19
Have you been sentenced yet for that crime?
20
No.
21
Are you currently awaiting sentencing?
22
Yes.
23
And you've been awaiting sentencing since 2003, 2002?
24
Yes.
25
During the time -- all this stuff that you have been
Repeat that.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
telling the jury, all the phone calls you made and the
meetings you had, all of that, that was all done while you
were out on bail; is that right?
Yes.
Now, I'm going to show you what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 85?

Do you recognize that document?
7
8
Yes.
What is it, generally?
10
It is my cooperation agreement.
11
Exhibit 85.
12
Is that your signature on the last page?

A
Yes.
MR. JONES:
15
16
Your Honor, I move into evidence
Government's Exhibit 85.
17
THE COURT:
Any objection?
18
MS. WHALEN:
No objection.
19
MR. NKRUMAH:
20
THE COURT:
21
(So marked.)
23
MR. JONES:
25
No objection, your Honor.

It's admitted as Government's Exhibit
85.
22
24
It's Government's
If you can turn to the last page, please.
13
14
3021
Your Honor, may I utilize the Elmo here,
the camera?
THE COURT:
Yes, you may.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3022
This is it, Mr. Francis, this is your agreement?
Yes.
Your agreement says, at the top, "The People of the State
of New York v. Stevie Francis; is that right?
Yes.
What do you believe your obligations are under this
agreement?
their investigations, and follow through and be truthful and
What do you have to do?
I have to maintain contact and obey the authorities and
10
honest with every dealing I have with the U.S. Government.
11
12
see that on your screen?
13
Yes.
14
It says "The defendant agrees to cooperate fully with
15
SNP."
16
17
official that is conducting any investigation.
18
Do you see where it says "Special Narcotics prosecutors"?
19
Okay.
20
It says that you agree, in A, to give complete and
21
truthful information about anything that SNP asks about; is
22
that right?
23
That is correct.
24
And then in B, you have to testify truthfully and
25
completely at any hearing, grand jury testimony or trial; is
If you look at page one, "Terms of cooperation," do you
Who is SNP?
I don't know.
I believe that is any governmental
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3023
that right?
Yes.
At the top, you have waived your immunity, you agree to
provide documents, you have to maintain contact with the SNP;
is all that correct?
Yes.
Paragraph two, in the middle, "All information and
testimony provided by the defendant" -- that's you --
be complete and truthful.
"must
Defendant must also provide
10
complete and truthful information about all his prior criminal
11
activity and bad acts."
12
Yes.
13
Did you do that, did you tell the authorities about all
14
the things that you have done in your life?
15
Yes.
16
What about things you have not been prosecuted for,
17
things that the government didn't know about, did you tell
18
them about that?
19
Yes.
20
Is that because you are required to?
21
Yes.
22
Page seven says -- paragraph seven says that "The
23
defendant's cooperation will continue for as long as SNP
24
determines it should continue, and the defendant is obligated
25
to testify about matters whenever called upon to do so by
Is that right?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
3024
SNP."
Do you see that?
2
3
Yes.
What do you expect to get if you comply with your
obligations under your agreement with New York City?
sentence.
The Special Narcotics prosecutors?
Yes.
10
What is that letter going to do for you?
11
It will allow me to maintain my sentence within certain,
12
hopefully, Guidelines.
13
I expect to get a letter from the government to reduce my
Let's break that down a little bit?

It says, on page four, it says that, if you look at
14
15
11A, that the SNP will make a good-faith assessment of the
16
value, truthfulness and completeness of your cooperation, and
17
that the SNP, in their sole discretion, they will decide what,
18
if any, reduction in sentence or other consideration should be
19
recommended.
Is that right.
20
21
Yes.
22
Now, it says "Sentence should be recommended."
23
ultimately sentences you?
24
The judge.
25
Who decides how much time you're going to serve in state
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Who
3025
prison?
The judge.
And it says, in the i paragraph at the bottom, that if
SNP determines that you have provided material assistance in
the investigation, apprehension or prosecution of a person or
persons for a narcotics felony, it would permit a sentence of
lifetime probation.
Is that right?
8
9
Yes.
10
That's what you want, isn't it?
11
Yes.
12
Paragraph two is an alternative --
13
Yes.
14
15
appropriate for you, but that some other reduction in your
16
sentence is appropriate, then the SNP will make such a
17
recommendation to the sentencing Court.
-- where, if the SNP decides that life probation is not
Is that correct?
18
19
Yes.
20
And in order to do that, you would withdraw the felony
21
plea and plead to a different type of crime; is that correct?
22
Yes.
23
That's a recommendation to the judge?
24
Yes.
25
Another option would be number three:
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
If SNP decides
3026
that your cooperation was fruitless and that you -- but that
you didn't violate the terms of your agreement, then the
Special Narcotics prosecutor would allow you to withdraw your
guilty plea and plead to an A2 felony; is that correct?
Yes.
And the result of that would be, at the very end here, an
indeterminate term of imprisonment of ten to life; is that
right?
Yes.
10
Finally, if you look at B:
11
determines that you failed to abide by any term in the
12
agreement, your cooperation will be terminated, and unless SNP
13
otherwise agrees, the defendant's above-described guilty plea
14
to a felony will be entered, and SNP will recommend that you
15
serve any lawful sentence appropriate under the circumstances,
16
including twenty-five to life; correct?
17
Yes.
18
Has anybody -- is this the extent of your agreement with
19
the government?
20
That's the agreement I have with the government.
21
Anybody else promise you how long you would serve in
22
jail?
23
No.
24
Anybody told you how long they think you will serve in
25
jail?
If Special Narcotics
Do you have any other written agreements?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3027
No.
After you were arrested by the state, did you cooperate
on narcotics cases?
Yes.
Did you testify in the grand jury?
Yes.
Did you testify against other drug dealers?
Yes.
You told us last Thursday that eventually, at some point,
10
the FBI came knocking on your door; is that right?
11
Yes.
12
And they asked you to cooperate in terrorism
13
investigations as a confidential informant, correct?
14
Yes.
15
Over the last -- you signed this agreement on May 21 of
16
2003.
17
cooperating with either the state, the city or the United
18
States Government?
19
Yes.
20
While you were cooperating with the United States, the
21
Terrorism Task Force, how often did you talk to your handlers?
22
Pretty often.
23
How many days a week did you do things that they asked
24
you to do?
25
Since that time, Mr. Francis, since 2003, have you been
Every day.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3028
Was it possible, during that time that you were doing
things for the FBI every day, to have your own job?
No.
You were working full-time as a confidential informant;
is that right?
Yes.
How many investigations do you think you worked on during
that time?
It's impossible.
Too many to count.

THE COURT:
10
Could you clarify the question, when
11
you're talking about investigations.
12
just the federal investigations?

MR. JONES:
13
Are you referring now to
Yes, your Honor.
14
How many investigations have you worked on, terrorism
15
investigations have you worked on, over the years for the
16
Joint Terrorism Task Force?
17
Several.
18
Were the defendants in this room the only people you were
19
looking at?
20
No.
21
Does your sentence, Mr. Francis, the amount of time that
22
you ultimately serve in a state prison, does that sentence
23
have anything to do with what happens to the two people across
24
the room?
25
No.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
what do you think is going to happen to you?
I will go to prison for life.
Do you have any doubt about that?
No doubts.
3029
If you testify falsely today or testify falsely at all,
MR. JONES:
No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT:
I don't think your lunches have arrived
here yet, but we're going to stop here, because, as I
understand it, we need to play around with the equipment and
10
change it up a little bit.

So, we're going to break now.
11
I trust that your
12
lunches should be here in about twenty-five minutes or so.
13
So, you'll have an extended break.

Again, during this lunch break, you'll be able to
14
15
use your cell phones and so on to call family members, work,
16
friends, whatever, except you know the drill:
17
about the case among yourselves or with anyone else.
18
cannot use your phones to look up anything about this case, do
19
any kind of research, read or look at or listen to anything
20
that might be connected with this case, whether it's over your
21
phones or anything else that you may have, papers, magazines
22
and so on.
23
You cannot talk

You
Remember to keep an open mind and not to form or
24
draw any conclusions about anything that you may have seen or
25
heard here in the courtroom in connection with this case.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3030
So, I am estimating that we will probably get
1
2
started around -- before I gauge how much time, can I see
counsel for one second.

I don't think we need the reporter for this.
4
5
This
is an administrative matter.
(Sidebar discussion off the record.)
THE COURT:
We're trying to take into account all
contingencies, between the technology and getting all set up
and hopefully the prompt arrival of your lunches.

I figure we'll start around 2:15, so that you know,
10
11
and you can start getting ready about that time.

Be sure to leave your headsets and everything on
12
13
your seats.
14
case.
Enjoy your lunch.
15
(Jury excused.)
16
THE COURT:
17
The jury is no longer present.
18
Remember not to talk about the
Everyone, please be seated for a minute.
Mr. Francis, we have now reached the point of
19
cross-examination, so you may not discuss your testimony with
20
anyone from the government team, whether it's the agents or
21
any of the attorneys.
22
but not any of your testimony.
23
24
25
You can certainly discuss scheduling,
Ms. Messina, you had indicated that you wanted to

play some CDs for Mr. Francis.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3031
MS. MESSINA:
Your Honor, we were discussing -- I
was discussing this with the government before.
CDs are already in evidence.
may be one that Mr. Francis would have to identify as being
his voice before I could admit it into evidence.
be the only issue.

THE COURT:
Some of the
That wouldn't be problem.
There
That would
Why don't you perhaps do that, if you
want to do that in advance, since we don't have the jury
present here, it might be easier to do it this way.
10
Otherwise, you'd have to have a separate laptop and separate
11
headphones and the sound muted and all of that stuff before it
12
could actually be presented to the jury.
13
MS. MESSINA:
Would you like me to do it now then?
14
THE COURT:
15
We don't need to be here for that, I would think.
Yes.
16
The government might want to be here.
17
necessarily need to be here for him to listen to that and just
18
hear it.
19
I don't see that we
This way we can move along easier.

MS. MESSINA:
Since we are going to be using our
20
equipment, I ask that the government break down theirs.
21
set up ours and then we will play it for him.
We
22
THE COURT:
That's fine.
23
Could you just maybe hang back a little bit so that
24
we can listen to that?
25
THE WITNESS:
GR
OCR
Yes.
CM
CRR
CSR
3032
1
THE COURT:
that is on the tape.
All right.
Let them know whether that's your voice
I will leave you all to do what you have
to do.
MS. WHALEN:
To let you know, Your Honor, I have
been having problems with my computer.
So the government has
agreed to let me use their computer.
when Ms. Messina is finished, we will have to set theirs back
on.
To let you know that
10
THE COURT:
Okay.
11
MR. JONES:
The only issue on -- just for purposes
12
of the record, the -- for safety reasons, the agents will be
13
accompanying Mr. Francis to and fro.
14
instructed, Mr. Francis has been instructed, not to discuss
15
the case.
16
will be in the presence of law enforcement.
They obviously have been
I want it to be clear that for obvious reasons he
17
THE COURT:
Right.
Okay.
18
As I said, administrative things, like scheduling,
19
is fine or to the extent that you need to accomplish your
20
movement, that's fine, as long as you don't discuss your
21
testimony, so that we are clear.
22
Okay.
23
MR. MILLER:
Your Honor had asked to us keep the
24
Court aware of the general pace of the case as well -- for a
25
couple of reasons.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3033
1
THE COURT:
MR. MILLER:
Yes.
One of which was that Your Honor had
suggested that reciprocal 3500 material should be turned over
around a week before the end of the government's case.
THE COURT:
MR. MILLER:
Right.
It's our prediction at this point that
we are at that stage, that is, we think that we will rest
within a week or so, perhaps even less.

So it would seem that now would be the appropriate
9
10
time under Your Honor's prior order to receive reciprocal 3500
11
material.
THE COURT:
12
13
14
15
Okay.
Does defense wish to be heard on
that?
MR. NKRUMAH:
Your Honor, we will comply with the
Court's order accordingly.
16
THE COURT:
All right.
17
MS. WHALEN:
18
THE COURT:
19
Okay.
20
(Luncheon recess taken.)
21
As we will, Your Honor.

Thank you.
We are in recess.
We will resume at 2:15.
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3034
A F T E R N O O N
2
3
S E S S I O N
STEVEN FRANCIS, resumed.

THE COURT:
This is the afternoon session of case on
trial, United States v. Defreitas and Kadir.
who were present this morning are present this afternoon.
Mr. Francis is on the stand.
Good afternoon, sir.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
10
All the parties
Good afternoon.
The jury is not present.
We're about to
11
send for the jury.
Just a reminder for attorneys, members of
12
the press to keep your phones off inside the courtroom,
13
please.
14
equipment.
It does interfere with the playing of the electronic

I would appreciate that, please.
15
Okay.
16
(Jury present.)
17
THE COURT:
18
You can ask the jury to come in, please.
All the parties
agree that all of our jurors are present and properly seated?
19
MR. JONES:
20
MR. NKRUMAH:
21
MS. WHALEN:
22
THE COURT:
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
Yes, your Honor.
All right.
This is now
23
cross-examination of Mr. Steven Francis by the defense.
24
told you, the defense does not have any obligation to do
25
anything during the course of the trial.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
As I
However, if they do
Francis - cross - Messina
3035
wish to cross-examine any witness, it is certainly their right
to do so.
I remind you, Mr. Francis, that you are still under
3
4
oath.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Yes.
Ms. Messina, I believe that you are
beginning on behalf of Mr. Kadir?
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
Yes, your Honor.

You may inquire when you are ready.
MS. MESSINA:
10
11
CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
BY MS. MESSINA:
13
Good afternoon, Mr. Francis.
14
Good afternoon.
15
I'm going to be asking you some questions about your
16
history and about these events, and we may listen to some of
17
the audio as necessary.
18
Yes.
19
If I say something you do not understand, please ask me
20
to stop, and I will repeat it.
21
Thank you.
22
Okay.
All right?
When did you assume the name Annas?
23
24
Will you repeat the question, please?
25
Yes.
When did you assume the name Annas?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3036
My name Annas came right after I became Muslim.
When did you become Muslim?
In 1994.
And did you change your last name, as well?
I never changed my name.
Muslim name or Islamic name, which is Annas Bin Nadder.
name Steven Francis; is that correct?
That's correct.
10
So, when you went to Guyana, though, did you ever tell
11
anyone there your true name?
12
Yes.
13
How many people knew your true name in Guyana?
14
At least one.
15
Who was that person?
16
Sheik Talib Balil Rutherford.
17
name was mentioned to Ibrahim Kareem.
18
19
-- let me ask you the question.
I -- legally, but I have a
For all intents and purposes, you would still use the
Okay.
As I remember now, also my
I want to revisit when you say you were approached
When were you approached by agents to become a paid
20
21
informant?
22
23
informant.
24
Well, you say a CI as opposed to a paid informant?
25
Confidential informant.
I was approached by agents to be a CI, not a paid
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3037
May I finish my question?
Please, yes.
When you were giving information in this case, were you
receiving money, a salary?
What type of information are you speaking about?
Let's just take the time that you were working on this
case, 2006, around June, July; right?
Yes.
2007, were you receiving money?
10
I was getting paid subsistence to live.
11
What were you being paid?
12
I was given the monies for the rent and for my daily --
13
money for rent, gas.
14
And how much would that have been?
15
I don't remember right now.
16
Would that include -- did you have a family then?
17
Yes.
18
And would that include rent for your whole family then?
19
For me and my wife.
20
Okay?
That's it.
What was your rent?
Did you have children at that point.
21
22
Not in the beginning of the investigation.
I had not,
23
with the marriage.
24
25
you were involved with at the beginning of this investigation?
In other words, you had children, but not with that woman
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3038
Not with my wife, my current wife, yes.
How many children did you have prior to this
investigation?
One.
So, they paid you for your rent, they paid you for your
utilities; is that what you said?
the rent and as well as the gas money, and to be able to
survive as I do the investigation.
They gave me subsistence for my living, which includes
10
So, in other words, money for food; right?
11
That is correct.
12
Travel?
13
That is correct.
14
Clothes?
15
Money to live through the investigation, month to month.
16
I understand.
17
Subsistence.
18
That includes clothes?
19
I would have to purchase clothes, I believe, as a part of
20
living; that's correct.
21
22
buying for people that you met in Guyana?
23
Some of the gifts, yes, and some --
24
They had paid for that; correct?
25
I paid for them, yes.
That would include, as well, gifts that you ended up
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3039
But they would give you the money so that you could paid
for it?
rent, and as well as my allowances for the month; that's
correct.
Did you get a monthly allowance then?
I would say I was given monies to -- subsistence, again,
to pay my rent and to pay the gas and to live on it.
They give me the money for subsistence and to pay the
I understand.
I'm asking, did you get a monthly
10
allowance in addition to that?
In other words, extra money?
11
No extra money.
12
I'll withdraw it if you don't understand it.
I don't understand the question.
13
At what point -- withdrawn.
14
Did you do anything to let either your lawyer or law
15
enforcement or prosecutors know you were ready or willing to
16
become what you call a confidential informant.
17
18
confidential informant on the FBI, and they gave me the terms,
19
and I agreed to them.
20
21
did they pick you, do you know?
22
I don't know that.
23
And did they approach you by visiting you in jail?
24
No.
25
Were you out of jail at this point?
I was approached if I was interested to become a
Were you approached -- how did this approach happen?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
If you know.
How
3040
Yes.
When was it?
Sometime between Christmas or, I would say, December 2003
and the summer of 2004.
York County and charged with an A(1) felony; correct?
Yes.
And that case was open?
Yes.
10
And so, you made bail; is that why you were out of jail?
11
Yes.
12
with investigations on narcotics.
13
14
approached by a different law enforcement agency.
15
already assisting them.
16
assist in something else?
17
18
drug-related cases, and I was approached from the FBI through
19
the Special Narcotics, because they displayed some interest in
20
me.
21
and they showed me the terms, and I agreed to the terms, and
22
that's why I joined -- I became a CI, confidential informant
23
--
24
25
Now, at that point, you had already been arrested in New
I went out on bail to assist the Special Narcotics
Understood.
So, in other words, you had already been

You were
When is it JTTF approached you to
I was working for Special Narcotics, the investigation of
They asked me if I wanted to be a confidential informant,
Excuse me.
-- for the FBI.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3041
That was December of '03?
What year was that?
I mentioned that this took place between December '03 and
the summer of 2004.
Can you be more concrete?
That is correct.
Do you remember when they did this and when you had the
agreement?
it was the period of time that actually will cover between the
10
meetings and the okays from actually the FBI to accept me as a
11
CI and for me accepting, also, to be a confidential informant.
12
13
Mr. Defreitas; is that right?
14
15
working for the FBI as a confidential informant.
16
17
--
18
19
after I started working for the FBI as a confidential
20
informant, I was actually approached for this case, which is
21
actually 2006.
22
23
2006?
24
25
said, No, it was approximately two years.
That's six months of time?
I cannot recall the exact date or the exact moment.
But
At some point, then, they bring you a photo of
That's on 2006, two years later, after I already was
So, three years later, you still haven't been sentenced
I did not say three years.
I see.
I said right after, two years
So, you didn't start working on this case until
You said if I was approached three years later, and I
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3042
Understood.
Thank you.
And your case, the A(1) felony to which you pled guilty,
was still open; correct?
That is correct.
Do you have a sentencing date in that case?
No, not that I know of.
I want to revisit that early time when you first got to
know Mr. Defreitas?

When you first met Mr. Defreitas, you got, after a
10
11
time, to see him on a pretty regular basis; right?
12
Yes.
13
And the name Ponytail came up; correct?
14
Yes.
15
And you learned that Mr. Defreitas and Ponytail had had
16
conversations about a plot before you even came on the scene;
17
right?
18
Yes.
19
And Ponytail, you learned, was a -- represented himself
20
to be a smuggler of people and of explosives; correct?
21
Yes.
22
And Mr. Defreitas and he had met down in Guyana --
23
Yes.
THE COURT:
24
25
At what point in time are you talking
about?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3043
-- prior to your involvement with Mr. Defreitas?
already spending time with Defreitas, not prior to meeting
with Defreitas.
That's what I am saying.
I just want to make sure that we all are on the same
page.
And you said conversations with Ponytail, as well?
After I was instructed by Sheik Mohammed that I actually
I have yet to learn this information.
After I was
10
could have conversations with him --
11
12
13
You are now a Muslim; is that correct?
14
I am a Muslim, yes.
15
And as a Muslim, I notice you use the word "Sheik."
16
preface a lot of people's names with "Sheik."
17
reason you do that?
18
Yes.
19
What is the reason?
20
Out of -- because of knowledge.
21
elderly.
22
elder and the knowledgeable sheiks.
23
24
the past week you call "Sheik."
25
as "Sheik."
By the way --- which is Defreitas.
You
Is there a
Some of them out of
It's a custom and tradition of Islam to call the
I notice many of the people you have spoken about over

You don't refer to Ponytail
Did you ever -- why not?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

I have never called him a sheik.
3044
I did not know that he
was knowledgeable person, and I did not know, also -- and I
actually appreciate that he was not an elder.
How old was he?
He was not an eldest.
Well, can you give me an estimate of his age?
I would say he's -- I cannot do that, because I don't
know.
see no white in him, and so expressions of elderly manner,
But he would have to be fairly young for me -- I didn't
10
actually for me to consider him an old man --
11
12
his own scheme?
And Ponytail spoke to you about getting you involved in
13
MR. JONES:
Objection.
14
THE COURT:
Sustained.
15
Did there come a time when you and Ponytail spoke
16
together?
17
Yes, in the presence of Nero.
18
Did there come a time when he would call you on the
19
phone?
20
We spoke on the phone, yes.
21
And in those conversations, were they related to this
22
plot about blowing up fuel tanks, or something else?
23
MR. JONES:
Objection.
24
THE COURT:
Can I see counsel at the side, please?
25
(Sidebar.)
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
THE COURT:
The basis of the objection, please.
MR. JONES:
Yes, your Honor.
hearsay.
is not 801(d)(2)(E).
which Ponytail is not.
It's hearsay.
3045
Counsel is eliciting
What Ponytail said to this witness is hearsay.
This
That only applies to a party opponent,
MS. MESSINA:
There's no basis for this testimony.
Judge, I'm not seeking to have it
admitted for the truth of what they talked about, just the
fact that they talked outside of speaking with the others.
10
11
12
13
MR. JONES:
He said, Yes.
What's the point of
asking him what they talked about?

MS. MESSINA:
I am also trying to establish that --
with my next question that Ponytail had an agenda of his own.
14
MR. JONES:
It's irrelevant.
15
THE COURT:
Let her finish, first.
16
MS. MESSINA:
It's relevant -- I'm going to ask him
17
if he learned at any point that Ponytail was also a
18
confidential informant, and it's relevant to the fact that
19
there were two separate confidential informants working this
20
case, with different agendas and without knowing either of
21
them were confidential informants.
22
THE COURT:
First of all, how is that relevant here?
23
Secondly, if Ponytail had a whole different agenda separate
24
and apart from the JFK plot, it's outside of the plot here,
25
it's outside of this conspiracy.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
And for the same reasons
3046
that I didn't allow the introduction of the second plot, what
we called the second plot, in Guyana that Rutherford was
involved in, I don't see how any other aims or goals of
Ponytail would be relevant here.
MS. MESSINA:
(In open court.)
THE COURT:
discussion.
Would the Court allow me --
I need it quiet in the courtroom.
No talk.
No
You want to talk, go outside, please.
(Sidebar.)
MS. MESSINA:
10
I'll withdraw the question.
I do feel
11
it's relevant to establish, if he knows, that Ponytail was
12
another government informant at some point.

MR. MILLER:
13
14
15
case.
Your Honor, this is not an entrapment
We've covered that ground.

MS. MESSINA:
What's the relevance?
Number one, it's relevant in how the
16
idea -- it's always relevant how the idea for the JFK plot
17
began, whether it's an entrapment defense or not.
18
19
MR. MILLER:
Even if it began nine months before
your client got involved, why is that relevant?
20
MS. MESSINA:
21
THE COURT:
22
MS. WHALEN:
23
There were a number of meetings of people, and
24
25
It leads to my client.
I'm not going to allow that.
One issue.
Ponytail was present -THE COURT:
Okay.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

MS. WHALEN:
3047
-- with other coconspirators.
I just
want to find out, the government is not going to be objecting
to the discussions of what took place in those meetings.

THE COURT:
Let me just say this:
Obviously, there
were meetings where Ponytail was present when all of this JFK
plot was being discussed.
I'm not going to preclude questioning about that.

But to the extent that Ponytail may have been a
8
9
Certainly, all of that is relevant.
separate informant, separate and apart for I-don't-know-who,
10
is completely irrelevant here, given that there is no
11
entrapment defense here.
12
(In open court.)
13
THE COURT:
14
You may inquire.
15
MS. MESSINA:
The objection is sustained.
16
BY MS. MESSINA:
17
18
Guyana with him -- withdrawn.
At some point after meeting Mr. Defreitas, you go to
You go to Guyana?
19
20
Yes.
21
And in the early, let's say, the fall of 2006, there's a
22
number of meetings held with people who are interested in
23
promoting this plot; correct?
24
I do not understand the question.
25
When you go to Guyana, you meet with people and you talk
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
about developing the plot to destroy fuel tanks at JFK.
THE COURT:
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
MS. MESSINA:
3048
Is that a question?
That's a question.
It's not a question.
It's a statement.
I'll say it in a different way, if the
Court would like.

THE COURT:
Sure.
Do you go to Guyana -- you said "Yes" -- when you're down
there, do you have meetings with several people who are
10
interested in promoting a plan to blow up fuel tanks at JFK?
11
12
discussing this?
13
discussions about the fuel tanks.
14
which of the trips.
15
Fall of 2006.
16
When I went in the fall of 2006 to Guyana, I went to meet
17
and know Nero, I went and meet -- to know Long Hair, and this
18
was for them to meet me and for Sheik Mohammed, Sheik Dawood
19
and as well as Long Hair to discuss the matter of the JFK plot
20
to me.
21
On which stage, actually, you're talking about that we're

I did fly to Guyana, and there were
You have to let me know on
Correct.
22
And you spoke to some of these people that you just
23
mentioned on the telephone before you went down to Guyana; is
24
that correct?
25
Yes.
I spoke to each one of the people that I just
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3049
mentioned, which is Long Hair, Sheik Mohammed, and Sheik
Dawood, which is Nero.
before I got there, yes.
there?
Yes, the three of them.
It was expressed to you that you were the missing piece
of the puzzle.
you?
I spoke to them three on the phone
And they expressed interest in having you come down

They were looking forward to meeting you; correct?
Do you recall that, someone expressing that to
10
Sheik Mohammed mentioned that I was sent by Allah to him,
11
and that I was to be trusted with the matter at hand, which
12
was the attack at JFK.
13
14
people, as well, also expressed to you that you were the
15
missing piece that they were waiting for in order to make this
16
plan go forward?
17
18
to me that I was sent by Allah to him.
19
20
with Donald Nero or Sheik Dawood.
And other people, as well?
Can you tell me if other
I just recall that it was Sheik Mohammed that mentioned
The people you met when you went in the fall, let's start
21
THE COURT:
22
MS. MESSINA:
Is that the fall of 2006?

Yes, fall of 2006.
23
Sheik Dawood was interested in this plan; correct?
24
Yes.
25
And he told you -- a name came up, Shukrijumah; correct?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3050
Yes.
Had you known the name Shukrijumah before you went down
do Guyana in 2006?
No.
Let me just ask a couple of questions about how this
works.
THE COURT:
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
10
questions, please.
11
Please don't preface your questions.

I apologize.
That is stricken.
Just ask your
No narrative.
Before you went to Guyana -- withdrawn.

Who from the FBI was assigned to be in charge of you
12
13
insofar as your relationship with this case?
14
My handler at the time is Louie Napoli.
15
He's called a handler; is that right?
16
I just said the person that was handling me.
17
Yes.
18
19
person that was handling me, his name is Louie Napoli.
20
21
the FBI uses?
22
No.
23
I'm just asking, is he called a handler?
That's what you asked me, who was in charge.
Is he called a handler?
Is that a technical term that
His name is Louie Napoli.
24
MR. JONES:
Objection.
25
THE COURT:
Sustained.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
So, the
CSR
That's what he's called.

Is that a term?
3051
Did you have more than one handler at that time?
What do you mean by that?
What was Louie Napoli's job in relation to you?
I'm the person -- he's the person that I'm to report to.
And what does that mean, that you are to report to him?
I'm supposed to be the eyes and the ears of the FBI, and
I'm supposed to gather as much information as I can and
actually give it to them, which is the FBI, and he's the
person that I actually reported this information to.
10
And was there anyone else besides Louie Napoli that you
11
were supposed to report information to?
12
I was reporting my information to Louie Napoli.
13
Did you receive any instructions on how you were supposed
14
to do that before you went to Guyana in 2006?

THE COURT:
15
Can you refine the question in terms of
16
how he was to do that in the United States, or how he was
17
supposed to do that from Guyana?
18
MS. MESSINA:
From Guyana.
19
When I was -- when I became a CI, I was told to be the
20
eyes and the ears of the FBI, and that's what I was.
21
22
meant?
23
24
Your life is more important than anything.
25
careful when you're traveling.
Did you receive any instructions explaining what that
I was told -- the instructions that Louie Napoli told me,
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
You must be very
And that's all the information

1
I got from him when I got in the plane to go to Guyana.
behave?
3052
That's all he told you about how you were supposed to

Withdrawn.
Were you given instructions on how to behave when
4
5
you were in Guyana?
behave in Guyana or what to expect in Guyana was given to me
by Sheik Mohammed prior to my going there, in the same way
when I was given instructions when I went to Trinidad from
10
11
I got them from Sheik Mohammed.
This information how to
Sheik Abdul Kadir.

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Francis - cross/ Messina
3053
CROSS EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
BY MS. MESSINA:
with an FBI handler name Louie Napoli, right?
Yes.
He didn't give you instructions about how to act as a
proper confidential informant?
what I have been doing ever since.
I am not asking those questions.
My question is you met
He told me to be the ears and eyes of the FBI and that's
10
And that's it?
11
Yes.
12
Now, when you went to Guyana were you instructed how to
13
contact this handler?
14
Yes.
15
How were you supposed to contact the handler?
16
In any way that will not jeopardize my living, which will
17
be, of course, by phone.
18
Did they issue a phone to do that?
19
I had a phone, yes.
20
Did he give you, or anyone from the FBI, instruct you as
21
to when you were supposed to report to them?
22
No, that's impossible.
23
What's impossible?
24
I am spending most of time with Sheikh Muhammad.
25
cannot tell me when or how I'm supposed to break from the
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

He
3054
group. This is a very serious and delicate matter which my
life is always in danger.
group when I feel is actually foreseeable.
be hurt on that matter which actually I reported a couple
times I was hurt while trying to actually report back here.
hurt by the defendants, correct?
Your question was how to report.
Can you answer my question, you were not hurt by any of
So I will have to break from the

So I will actually
You weren't hurt by anyone in this group, you were not
10
these defendants, correct?
11
Not to my knowledge, no.
12
What do you mean not to your knowledge, were you hurt by
13
these defendants, yes or no?
14
No.
15
And were you hurt by anyone who you met in these
16
discussions about promoting the plan?
17
Yes or no?
18
No.
19
Thank you.
20
You were mugged in Guyana twice, right?
21
That's correct.
22
It had nothing to do with your reporting anything about
23
this plan, correct?
24
THE COURT:
Please don't raise your voice.
25
MS. MESSINA: I apologize.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
THE COURT:
3055
Don't raise your voice.
Can you answer?
Yes, it did because I was reporting both times I was
mugged I was reporting to my agent, yes.
had something to do with the information you were reporting?
I have no knowledge of that.
Well, when you were mugged the first time it was outside
in Guyana, correct?
Is there some reason you believe that you being mugged
10
Yes.
11
Was it at a mall?
12
I was walking on the streets.
13
Did you have a place to stay in Guyana the first time in
14
the spring of 2006?
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. MESSINA:
Fall.
I'm sorry.
17
Fall of 2006.
18
In the fall of 2006 I stood with Sheikh Sa'ud in Masjid.
19
And with what frequency, if you can recall, did you get
20
back to your handler about events as they occurred?
21
I can't recall every event.
22
Did Officer or Agent Napoli tell you that when you
23
reported back to him they would be taking notes of what you'd
24
say?
25
It's been a long time.
No.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3056
Did you take notes of what was happening as it occurred?
Then my life would be in jeopardy if I write down what I
am doing everyday.
So you took no notes?
I did not took any notes.
Would sometimes hours, maybe even days, go by before you
got a chance to report back to Agent Napoli about what you
learned?
10
It's possible.
Of course, sometimes it was impossible for me to
11
break from the group and -- but I don't remember if it was day
12
or hours or as soon as I was able, I reported to the Agent
13
about what was being done there.
14
15
report back to Agent Napoli what was going on, right?
16
No, I did not say that.
17
Was it your understanding that you could report back
18
after a long time elapsed?
19
20
dangerous job to report back to an agent about your
21
whereabouts and what you're he doing.
22
possible, and that my life is not in jeopardy that I could do
23
it, and that's what I did.
24
25
you were free to walk around as you wanted?
So you felt your job was, as soon as you were able, to
Like I said, it's a very dangerous situation.
Very
So it is only when it's
You were -- when you were in good Guyana you were not --
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3057
Yes.
Now, Guyana is a country on the beach, right?
It's a country in South America. Next to Brazil.
And Georgetown has a coast, correct, against the water?
It has a Demerara River.
It's a river or the sea.
Water, beach, right?
I believe so.
or water.
I don't know if that's the sea.
It has sand, I don't know if it is beach
10
There sand?
11
Yes.
12
There's open space, right?
13
Yes.
14
There's places for you to go to make a phone call in
15
private, correct?
16
I don't think so.
17
Now, when your having these meetings with Sheikh Dawud,
18
Pony Tail who you also call Long Hair -- by the way, did you
19
ever learn Pony Tail or Long Hair's real name?
20
No.
21
They seem to be interested, correct?
22
Who is "they"?
23
Pony Tail and Sheikh Dawud?
24
Yes, interested in what?
25
In promoting a plan to try and blow up fuel tanks at JFK
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3058
airport?
the plan at JFK that was presented to me by Mohammed, yes.
Shukrijumah, correct?
Yes.
And at some point you report that information back to
Louie Napoli?
Yes.
10
And at some point that same fall another person gets
11
involved Talib Rutherford, right?
12
Yes.
13
Now, Rutherford is a man who has standing in the
14
community of Georgetown, correct?
15
I do not understand the question.
16
Rutherford -- Talib Rutherford has a business, correct?
17
Yes.
18
And he is in the mining business?
19
Yes.
20
And he has access to some money, right?
21
I don't know that.
22
Well, you knew that he rented or even owned an office in
23
Georgetown, correct?
24
Yes.
25
And he also became interested in this plot?
According to my knowledge, they were all interested in
And Dawud mentioned that he knows a man named
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3059
Yes.
And he also recognized the name that Shukrijumah,
correct?
Yes.
I want to draw your attention to October 2006. So some
part of that fall when you're down there did there ever --
which part of October?
Before you returned.
10
Okay.
11
Well, let me step back. Was there -- if the FBI wanted to
12
get in touch with you was there a way for them to do that?
13
14
had any ways to get to me, they will be the one that know
15
that. I have no knowledge of that.
16
17
would they call you?
18
19
that I call; not the FBI.
20
21
communicated that they were very interested in pursuing
22
Shukrijumah?
23
Who is "they"?
24
The FBI.
25
Repeat that question.
When in the October because I returned in October, too,
They'll have to wait for me to call them or if they have
Did the FBI -- would you usually call them to speak or

Which would happen more often?
I will call them, and actually it would be Louie Napoli
Now, did there come a point in the fall when they
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3060
lead involving Shukrijumah?
anything. I was just reporting to Louie Napoli what my
findings were and if there was any one that was actually
interested in Shukrijumah would be Sheikh Masud (ph), and as
well as Sheikh Mohammed, and as well as Long Hair at this
point and Rutherford, and the meeting Shukrijumah and pursuit
that Mohammed had for meeting Shukrijumah was only because he
Did there come a point when you were told to pursue the
I was never told by anyone to pursue any lead to
10
would provide substantial support as well, meaning the
11
financials, as well as the manpower to carry out the JFK plot.
12
13
Shukrijumah was mentioned in your meeting, correct, to the
14
FBI?
15
Yes.
16
At some point during the meeting things start to go bad
17
between the group, correct?
18
Yes.
19
One of the reasons is that nobody -- well, withdrawn.
My question was you communicated the fact that
20
There's -- who brings up the idea that --
21
THE COURT:
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
It's just
22
there were so many meetings.
23
the meeting things start to go bad.
24
meeting you're referencing so it's clear on the record.
25
When you say at some point in

Can you pinpoint which
MS. MESSINA: I understand.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
things start to go bad?
3061
Can you pinpoint which meeting -- what point of fall 2006
MR. JONES:
Objection.
THE COURT: If you could rephrase just a little bit.
Was there a falling out at some of point in the fall of 2006
from that original group?
THE WITNESS:
I will say the fall we were all
standing by and everybody was happy with each other and there
was no falling out in the fall-time.
10
So when did the falling out occur?
11
The falling out occurred by February 2007 and the fallout
12
by who?
13
Can you tell us?
14
Yes.
15
Long Hair, and Sheikh Mohammed and I and it was not complete
16
fallout.
17
of the plot was going and Sheikh Mohammed was not pleased with
18
the matters that how it was going.
19
that were arised that were actually make Sheikh Dawud, as well
20
as Sheikh Talib Rutherford to decide not to be part of the
21
plan anymore.
22
What were the issues?
23
The issues are very simple and clear. Number one, Sheikh
24
Dawud was -- there were some personal issues, as well as there
25
were issues involving the whereabouts of where Shukrijumah was
I'd like to know.
The fallout was between Rutherford Sheikh Dawud,
It was a dispute in matters of where the direction
So then there were issues
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3062
and how actually the plot actually should be going with regard
of who was going to be -- going to Trinidad and who was not
going to Trinidad.
of JFK.
Shukrijumah was. Isn't it true that there was a thought that
if you got to Trinidad he might be there, was that the
thought?
So it had nothing to do with the interest
So you just said there were issues about where
The reason of the travelling was that Sheikh Dawud
10
believed that Shukrijumah was in Trinidad and that Sheikh
11
Rutherford believed that he was not.
12
Okay.
13
But the only person that could have had determined that
14
was Abu Bakr, which actually was the Imam of the Muslims in
15
Trinidad that had knowledge of it.
16
But my question is did you speak to Abu Bakr?
17
I never spoke to be Abu Bakr.
18
Did you --
19
knew who Shukrijumah was?
did anyone know for sure that Abu Bakr even
20
MR. MILLER:
21
THE COURT: Sustained.
22
Objection.
What led you to believe -- withdrawn.
23
Is it fair to say that it was the hope of the group
24
during meetings before everything kind of fell apart that you
25
would find -- that you hoped to find Shukrijumah, right?
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3063
Sheikh Dawud to have meeting with Shukrijumah.
And it would also be in your best interest, right?
It was the best of interest of Sheikh Mohammed and Sheikh
Dawud.
It was the best interest of Sheikh Mohammed, as well as
Could you please answer my question?
THE COURT:
Don't argue wit the witness, please.
Would it be your best interest as well?
Like I said, it was the best of interest of Sheikh
10
Mohammed and Sheik Dawud and I was there only to listen and
11
report.
12
13
Bakr had anything to do with Shukrijumah, correct?
14
I have no knowledge of it.
15
Their dispute occurs and your kicked out of Rutherford's
16
office, right?
17
18
question.
19
You said in February of 2007 there's a falling out?
20
That's correct.
21
And you're kicked out Rutherford's office?
22
Sheikh Mohammed and I, yes?
23
And he didn't want to have anything more to do with you?
24
He was pissed off at the time.
25
And one of the reasons I believe you testified on direct
And there was no way to know during that time that Abu
I'm sorry.
When and how?
I do not understand the
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
3064
was he was angry that you took the video off his computer.
Just yes or no, if you can.
Sheikh Mohammed instructed me to take the video out of
the computer and I did, and he got upset and threw us out of
the office.
Rutherford got upset and threw you out of the office?
Rutherford, yes.
And was it you who actually placed the video on
Rutherford's computer?
10
I was asked by Rutherford to place it in his computer.
11
So you placed it on his computer?
12
He asked me to. Meaning Rutherford.
13
MS. MESSINA: Judge.
14
THE COURT:
15
MS. MESSINA: I am just asking.
16
He answered your question.

I am not trying to
be argumentative.
THE COURT:
17
Move on.
18
When -- how much sooner -- well, how much after you
19
placed the video on his computer did you remove it?
20
I remove it when Sheikh Mohammed asked me to remove it.
21
How much time went by between when you placed it on his
22
computer and when you removed it?
23
I do not remember.
24
Was it the next day or week?
25
I don't remember.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3065
computer to do that?
his computer at any time.
removing that you were doing that?
Sheikh Mohammed told me.
I am asking if you told Rutherford you were removing the
video as you were before you did, or as you were doing it?
When you removed it how did you get access to his
I was in the office.
I was allowed by Rutherford to use
You removed it by -- did you tell him when you were
10
Sheikh Mohammed instructede to take it off, and of
11
course, it was not in accordance with the knowledge of Sheikh
12
Rutherford. He -- Sheikh Mohammed did not want Sheikh
13
Rutherford or Sheikh Dawud to know that the video was taken
14
away from the computer.
15
But at some point he finds out it was?
16
Yes.
17
And is that when you're there in the office?
18
Sheikh Mohammed and Sheikh Dawud, and Rutherford and
19
myself, we are all of us are in the office at the time that
20
the video is taken away from the computer.
21
22
computer?
23
When the video was off the computer we were all present.
24
How did he learn the video was off the computer,
25
Rutherford?
So they were all present when you were taking it off the
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3066
I informed him of that.
Did you do that before you took it off, while you were
taking it off, or after?
After it was already off the computer.
And you don't -- I believe you testified on direct you
were instructed by the FBI also to take off that video,
correct?
they did not want the video on the computer, but I was already
There were concerns of security -- national security and
10
told by Sheikh Mohammed that the video should be off.
11
12
do you?
13
I do not remember.
14
Okay. So it's fair to say that initial grouping of guys
15
breaks up, right?
16
17
left the office under the instructions of Sheikh Talib
18
Rutherford, and Mohammed and I left the office and left Dawud
19
with him.
20
21
believe, at the mosque, correct?
22
I ran into him sometime after that.
23
He doesn't want to have anything more to do with this
24
plan, correct?
25
You don't know how long that video was on his computer,
Sheikh Talib Rutherford threw us out of the office and we
And at a later date you run into Sheikh Rutherford, I
He does not want to talk to me.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3067
Sheikh Rutherford, right?
I did not lose him.
Well,
I did not lose him.
And similarly Donald Mero (ph) is no longer a part of the
plan, correct?
Yes.
And he's the guy you said knew Shukrijumah, right?
10
Yes.
11
And now he's out of the plan, right?
12
Yes.
13
Now, at this point you're getting anxious because the
14
plan has fallen apart?
15
That's not true.
16
Well, at a point even before it broke apart -- the plan,
17
stalled because you couldn't come up with the money to go to
18
Trinidad, you, meaning the group?
19
20
Before this group fell apart the plan had stalled.
21
couldn't get to the next step, which was trying to go to
22
Trinidad; right?
23
24
is because the person what was going to travel to Trinidad did
25
not have travel documents at that moment.
He doesn't even want to talk to you, so you've lost
he's no longer part of your plan?
That's not correct.
He just decided not to talk to me.
It's nothing because of money.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

You
It
3068
And that a was Abdul Nur?
That is correct.
So the plan stalled because of this logistical problem.
He didn't have his document to get to Trinidad?
faster.
pay for the trip to Trinidad with Nur at one point?
The plan was moving slowly and Sheikh Mohammed needed
Right. And didn't Rutherford also say he wasn't going to
Sheikh Rutherford was going to pay for the tickets of all
10
of us to go to Trinidad, and Nur -- and after the fallout I
11
guess he didn't have to any more.
12
13
said that he wasn't going to give you the money, the group, or
14
people who were going to go to Trinidad, the money to get
15
there; do you remember that?
16
17
Rutherford didn't see the need of him going at that particular
18
time.
19
cover his ticket.
20
but I am sending Abdul firs to find out first the information
21
and then we can take it from there.
22
23
plan was stalled.
24
That's not correct.
25
At one point Rutherford says to you that he knows how
Before the fallout, though, even before the fallout, he
Sheikh Dawud wanted to travel with Abdul Nur and Sheikh
So he did not want to pay for his -- he did not want to

And he said if you want to go you can go,
And at this point you were getting anxious because the

You couldn't get to Trinidad?
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3069
anxious you are but you need to have some patience.
remember that conversation?
me please.
he says he knows how anxious you are, but you need to have
some patience.
listen to the tape or can I read into the paragraph you're
10
Do you
I don't just recall it. Can you -- can you repeat it for
At some point you have a conversation with Rutherford and
Do you recall that conversation?
I would like to know why did he say I'm anxious.
May I
referring to?
11
MS. MESSINA:
12
THE COURT:
13
(Pause in the proceeding)
14
MS. MESSINA: Should I mark this for identification,
15
Can I have one moment?

Sure.
Defense Exhibit A, and have it be shown to the witness?
16
MR. JONES:
17
MS. MESSINA:
18
THE COURT: It will be marked as Defense Exhibit A.
19
(Defendant Exhibit A received and marked for
20
It is already marked 2500.

I apologize 3500 SF 7O.
identification)
21
MS. MESSINA: Judge, may I approach the witness?
22
THE COURT:
23
MS. MESSINA: Thank you.
24
THE COURT: 3500 70.
25
MS. MESSINA: Yes, SF 70.
Yes.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
3070
THE COURT: For identification.
of that document?
(Witness perusing)
Can you look at the date on the first page.

THE COURT:
6
7
Mr. Francis, can you just take a look at the second page
Just to yourself.
Don't read out loud
from the document.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT: Does that refresh your recollection.

THE WITNESS:
10
Can I ask a question?
What is this?
Is this a transcript?
11
I'm asking you to just take a look at the second page of
12
the document and see if it refreshes your recollection as to
13
whether or not Rutherford made that statement to you?
14
I'd like to know what is this.
15
THE COURT: Can I see counsel at the side-bar.
16
(Continued on next page)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
2
3071
(The following took place at side bar).

THE COURT:
The Defense Exhibit 302, I mean
representations were made by the government during various
proceedings here prior to this witness testifying and maybe
even during the course of the testimony in colloquy with the
Court and the parties outside the presence of the witness and
the jury that this witness was not shown any of the 3502s that
were prepared by Officer Napoli.
he's not knowing what you are showing him.
So this is not necessarily

So he's
10
specifically asked for a transcript or a recording.
11
there's a transcript or -- I would say that you could even
12
without necessarily having to play the whole recording, if you
13
show him the transcript just to refresh his recollection, that
14
probably make might be better.
15
MS. WHALEN:
So if
I am just trying -- I am sorry.
There
16
is no transcript of this conversation. There is a recording. I
17
have the recording and the timeframe marked down but I only
18
got to review a few of the recordings and have them
19
identified.
20
THE COURT: Can you just tell me which paragraph?
21
MS. MESSINA: Right here (indicating for the Court).
22
MR. JONES:
May I make a suggestion?
Maybe if Your
23
Honor were to say -- part of the problem here is that it's
24
very literal and his English -- if you ask him some simple
25
questions, maybe if Your Honor says read the paragraph to
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3072
yourself, does that help you remember or does it not, does
this help you, does it help you remember.
have to move on.
If it does not.
We
THE COURT: I do think that he does tend to speak in
a very literal translation which is, I think, part of the
confusion with the questions, which is why I am trying to get
you to break them down.
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
I am.
Judge.
So it might make things go a little bit
10
more smoothly. Ask him to read that first paragraph to
11
himself, and ask him if that sparks his memory at all about
12
his conversation.
13
MS. MESSINA:
My sense of it is he's worried about
14
being trapped into something because he doesn't know where
15
this from and that is why the recording might at least --
16
THE COURT: I don't care if you want to play the
17
recording.
18
MR. JONES:
You can't play it for the jury.
19
THE COURT: Unless it is introduced.
20
MS. MESSINA:
You know, Judge, if I may, I'll go
21
with it and if he doesn't maybe Ms. Walsh on her cross can
22
approach --
23
THE COURT: You can do it later. I don't see any
24
reason why you can't follow it up later.
25
the question was.
Now, I forgot what
I'm sorry.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3073
MS. MESSINA: Can we just have the question.
(Read record)
THE COURT:
MR. JONES:
Let me just suggest -The other issue I am not sure we are
getting into here.
I don't know what the relevance is of what
Rutherford's state of mind was.
relevance is but in terms of procedure, if this is how we
should go, but I don't know what the relevance of listening to
the statement is anyway.
I don't know what the
We are trying to impeach him on what
10
somebody else thought.
11
court and what is the basis for it anyway.
12
MR. MILLER:
He's not a defendant and he is not in
What we are trying to get at here, if
13
you play the tape, is Rutherford is out of court hearsay
14
statement, which seems like rank hearsay.
15
MS. WHALEN:
I disagree.
I think if you play the

He's
16
recording for him the jury will be able to judge.
17
denying that he was anxious. If you do it this way I
18
understand that in this report it is her interpretation but
19
she's asking if he's anxious.
20
Rutherford made a comment that led -MR. JONES:
21
22
How does that prove that he is a hang
anxious?
23
MS. WHALEN:
24
MR. JONES:
25
He's denying he's anxious.
It doesn't but I mean given -For the truth of the matter that he is
anxious.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
MS. WHALEN:
3074
What I am putting it in for, it would
be up to the jury to decide whether he is anxious about moving
this forward because I think that's critical to our defense.
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR. JONES:
It is but even if -- you can't get that
in through hearsay statement of somebody not on trial.

MS. WHALEN:
That is why I am saying the recording
would be his statement.

THE COURT:
Can I stop this here because in the
first place this is Napoli's interpretation of what the
10
witness told him.
We don't know that in fact this witness
11
used the term anxious. So perhaps -- this is why I'm
12
suggesting if you wanted to backtrack I guess is the point
13
where you are asking you about Rutherford financing the trip
14
to Trinidad. If you want to sort of backtrack to that and say
15
and ask him:
16
the group express any frustration toward Rutherford's
17
reluctance to finance any portion of the trip, and then he can
18
explain that, and you can follow up on that and then if you
19
know -- if you do record Rutherford saying you need to have
20
some patience --
Well, you know, either you or anybody else in
21
MS. MESSINA: I can do this.
22
THE COURT: I think that might be -- I think that
23
gets at what you are trying to get at and people who have
24
English as a second language really have to use very simple
25
none compound --
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3075
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT: I am not trying to hamper your cross.
MS. MESSINA:
I am concerned.
I understand.
He's trying to --
whenever I ask him a specific question about himself he
answers about everyone else but him. He's obviously distancing
himself from this role in that way and I don't think he's
going to admit to being anxious because until --
THE COURT: You have to ask the simple questions.
MR. JONES:
I can tell you from experience and this
10
happens on direct, too, the problem when I say you were
11
plotting to do something, he was an informant, he doesn't
12
believe he was part of the plot.
13
-- you wanted to do this, this is what they were doing to me,
14
I was telling the FBI.
15
what is going on.
16
17
18
So taking it very literally
So just keep in mind I think that is
MS. MESSINA: I understand but part of our position

is he did have an active role in pushing this forward.
THE COURT: Well, then you have to ask the direct
19
questions and don't pussyfoot around it.
20
to get at it.
21
22
MS. MESSINA:
That's the only way
Let me think about it.
Are we going
to have him read.
23
THE COURT: In the meantime my suggestion would be to
24
go back to the financing of the trip and then move it forward.
25
MR. MILLER:
We would just continue our objection
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3076
if the question is did Rutherford tell you, you were anxious
because that's getting into what a non witness is saying about
this person's state of mind, which is hearsay.
THE COURT: But I think the same thing is obtained if
she asked him what do you recall at that point whether
Rutherford told you, you had to be patient.
of insinuates something that's just the gist of --
8
9
MR. JONES:
THE COURT:
We can't know.
what he is going to say.
12
MS. WHALEN:
13
THE COURT:
14
Or you ask him were you in a hurry, were
you anxious.
10
11
I mean it is sort
We are speculating as to
Just backtrack and move it forward.
The other thing -Because it is too far removed.
He is
not going to remember.
15
MS. WHALEN:
In terms of using the recording,
16
though, I think the government is arguing -- they are hearsay.
17
I think if a proper foundation is laid, these are recorded
18
recollections and what he -- or recorded statements like he
19
had written a report.
20
denies something that he says in the recording, then I think
21
even if it is with another individual we are allowed to take
22
it -- that -recording.
23
MR. JONES:
24
MS. WHALEN:
25
THE COURT:
If he's speaking in a recording and he
The whole tape.
Not the whole tape.

We can address that maybe during the break.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

Francis-cross-Messina
1
(In open court.)
THE COURT:
3077
Why don't you rephrase the question,
Ms. Messina?
MS. MESSINA:
Yes.
BY
were meeting with Rutherford, Dawood, Mr. DeFreitas, the issue
of paying for the tickets to Trinidad became a problem.
MS. MESSINA:
Mr. Francis, at a point in December of 2006, when you
10
Right?
11
No.
In December 2006, we didn't have any meetings.
12
13
was not present at their meetings.
14
the states and Sheik Dawood as well as Sheik Mohammed and
15
Rutherford and Long Hair, they were all in Guyana.
16
meeting on their own.
17
Are you sure weren't in Guyana in December of 2006?
18
No, ma'am.
19
America.
20
21
did that make you frustrated?
22
No.
23
Were you told at some point which the plan stalled that
24
you needed -- let me rephrase it.
25
On December 2006 I was in
They were
There was no fallout on December 2006.
I wasn't.
I was in the United States of
When the plan stalled because of these different issues,
You had conversations with FBI agents as this case
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
progressed, correct?
3078
That is correct.
I spoke to my handler Louie Napoli.
3
4
Your job was to advise them, as you said, be the eyes and
ears, so they could learn as you learned what was going on?
No.
Right?
No, that's not correct.
Did you tell them what happened at these meetings?
10
Tell who?
11
Louie Napoli?
12
Yes.
I spoke to Louie Napoli about the nature of the
13
14
meetings or the information that was gathered from the -- from
15
the telephone calls or when I was present, yes, I would inform
16
him as I called, yes.
17
18
him to be correct, isn't that right?
19
I gave him the correct information.
20
Okay.
21
It is up to him really to decide what to do with the
22
information I gave him.
23
Right.
24
Meaning --
25
You wanted to convey information to him, Louie Napoli,
Okay.
When -- you wanted that information that you told
But --
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3079
that was accurate?
and it was correct and it was truthful based on the
information I was gathering from Sheik Mohammed, Sheik Dawood,
Sheik Rutherford and Long Hair, yes.
information that you thought was important from these
meetings?
That's not correct.
10
What information did you think you were supposed to give
11
him?
12
13
with the information, again, what he wants to do.
14
actually to report out the information to him, yes.
15
All the information I gave Louie Napoli was in good stand
You were supposed to give him all the important
I would give him information and it is up to him to do

My job is
Right.
The information you reported was information you
16
17
chose to tell him?
18
No.
19
Well, you were the only person giving him information
20
before these meetings, am I right?
21
I don't know that.
22
But the information of the meetings -- let me withdraw
23
it.
24
25
You didn't have a tape recorder at these meetings

with Rutherford, right?
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3080
At what -- at what time?
At the meeting where you discussed the trip to Trinidad
and the money for Abdel Nur, was that tape-recorded?
conversations.
I am not sure.
I recorded some portions of
I like to know specifically more or less in what
6
7
time you are talking about so I can actually better help you.
Let me rephrase it.

At the meeting where you didn't have a tape
9
10
recording, was it your understanding you were supposed to
11
report on what happened at those meetings by calling Louie
12
Napoli?
13
14
I don't record the conversation.
15
Louie Napoli, as long as my life is not in jeopardy.
16
I would report as -- as soon as I am able which record or

Whenever I can, I report to
I understand.
MS. MESSINA:
17
Judge, if there is a way for me to
18
maybe phrase my questions better, but I would ask that the
19
witness try to answer the question whenever possible that's
20
being asked.
21
22
Mr. Napoli?
23
No.
24
Did someone tell you what to tell Mr. Napoli?
25
I told him everything that I could according to the time
Mr. Francis, you chose the information to relay to
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
and -- that I was reporting to.
Okay.
3081
You told him -- I didn't hear that.

All the information you could, is that what you
3
4
said?
is moving.
tomorrow because it hasn't happened.
today, yesterday and those days that we did not cover, or the
hours that we did not cover at the time that I reported.
I gave him all the information according to the time that

For example, I couldn't speak to him about
I have to speak about
10
So you -- when you gave him information about an event
11
that occurred, right, you'd give him all the information you
12
could about that?
13
I report everything accordingly, yes.
14
Okay.
15
accurately and the important information from the meeting?
16
I gave him all the information, meaning Louie Napoli.
17
At some point were you instructed by the FBI or other
18
government agents to help move the plot along?
19
No.
20
Yet, you did help move the plot along, correct?
21
22
Abdel Nur didn't have a passport, right?
23
Yes.
24
And you paid for the photos, the passport photos that he
25
needed, right?
"Accordingly" means to give him the information
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3082
Abdel Nur asked me to.
Okay.
Abdel Nur asked me to help him pay for the -- for some of
the stuff.
it's -- but he asked me for some help, yes.
And you did it?
If he asked me, yes.
You also --
Meaning Abdel Nur.
10
Abdel Nur.
You did it?
I don't remember today if it was the photos or if
You also assisted Abdel Nur to go to a -- give me
11
12
one second -- to go to an office in Georgetown because his
13
passport had expired and he needed a new passport?
14
He asked me to accompany him.
15
And you went?
16
Yes.
17
And --
18
Meaning Abdel Nur.
19
Yes.
And when you went to the -- it was an immigration
20
21
office, do you recall?
22
To --
23
With Abdel Nur?
24
Yes.
25
To get --
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
3083
I went to --
THE COURT:
Two of you cannot speak at the same time.
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
I'm sorry.
I apologize.
Let her finish asking the question and
then you can respond.

THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
You went to an Immigration office with Abdel Nur?
Yes.
10
To help him get his travel document?
11
Yes.
12
And what you told -- withdrawn.

You spoke to a woman at the travel agency, or
13
14
rather, the Immigration office?
15
I don't remember.
16
Do you remember telling her that you needed a travel
17
document quickly or you would lose out on a business
18
opportunity in Trinidad?
19
MR. JONES:
Objection.
20
THE COURT:
Sustained.
21
You succeeded in getting Nur a one-month travel document?
22
It was not my decision for him to get a one month travel
23
document.
24
He got a one-month travel document?
25
But it was not my decision.
GR
OCR
CM
It was the Immigration
CRR
CSR
3084
officer that gave him that.
there as to why Nur needed the travel document?
I don't remember.
Do you recall having a conversation with a woman at that
Immigration office?
8
9
Okay.
Do you recall having a conversation with the woman
I don't remember.
MS. MESSINA:
I would ask that the witness be shown
and I can mark this as Defense Exhibit B for identification.
10
THE COURT:
Is there --
11
MS. MESSINA:
12
THE COURT:
13
MS. MESSINA:
14
THE COURT:
15
Yes, you can show it to the witness.
16
(Marked.)
17
MR. MILLER:
18
THE COURT:
19
This is 3500-SF-99.
Thank you.
May I approach?
It is marked for identification.
Judge, can we approach for a second?

Sure.
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
1
(Side bar.)
MR. MILLER:
3085
This is getting highly confusing with
every piece of Government Exhibit 3500 material on top of the
defense exhibits.
Exhibit 3500 stickers on them is to identify --
The reason we put those Government
THE COURT:
The problem is, number one, it's a lot
easier for the jury to understand what is a defense exhibit
versus a Government Exhibit.

MR. MILLER:
9
10
fine, Judge.
11
is offered --
If it is offered and entered, that's
In all the trials I have sat in before when it
THE COURT:
12
13
in front of me.
14
straight for me.
15
sticker on it.
That's because you haven't done a trial
I like to do it that way.
I don't care if you use -- she is putting a
MR. MILLER:
16
It keeps it
Fine.
We just ask for the Government
17
Exhibit 3500 to be identified so we can review it as well
18
as --
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. MILLER:
21
so we can keep track.
She -As well as a list at the end of the day
22
THE COURT:
23
MS. MESSINA:
24
25
recollection.
She is giving you that number now.

It is just to refresh his
It is not in evidence.
MR. MILLER:
GR
We need a list, to keep track.
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
MS. MESSINA:
1
2
3086
I am happy to give you the list at the
end of the day.

MR. MILLER:
The issue is, the question is now, is
an out of court statement by the witness who is on the stand,
which he said he doesn't remember.
his out of court statement isn't hearsay as well.
statement a party opponent, out of court statement by a
witness that he doesn't remember.
refreshing here, what the purpose of refreshing the
10
It's not clear to me why

It is not a
I am not sure what we are
recollection is about a hearsay statement.

MS. MESSINA:
11
That's not hearsay, is my submission,
12
Judge.
13
he said something to encourage this woman to speed up the
14
process.
15
16
I am asking about an act he took to go there and when
THE COURT:
May I ask you something?
awful lot of writing on this document.
17
MS. MESSINA:
18
THE COURT:
19
20
21
You have an
I can find a blank -I really have issues with showing
witnesses documents that have writing on it.

MS. MESSINA:
I am happy to get a different one.
just didn't pull it aside.
22
THE COURT:
23
MS. MESSINA:
24
THE COURT:
25
MS. MESSINA:
GR
The -I didn't know this would be an issue.

I think that's common sense.
OCR
I apologize.
CM
I can get one from
CRR
CSR
1
3087
Mr. Nkrumah as well.
MR. MILLER:
We can get one as well.
The issue that I see is just that she asked about
the act, the witness agreed that he engaged with Abdel Nur in
his act of going to the immigration office.
said at the immigration office is hearsay and he's already
been asked about it.
recollection about hearsay statements.
Fine.
THE COURT:
What this witness
Now we are refreshing
Frankly, I think what's a more
10
important -- I am coming really close here to giving perhaps
11
advice.
12
really makes a difference.
13
that they needed Nur to be able to travel was helpful to the
14
plot itself.
I don't understand what he actually said to the woman
15
MS. MESSINA:
16
THE COURT:
The question is whether the fact
I am -The question is whether Nur thought it
17
would be helpful to him to have him go with him.
18
what difference does it make.
19
MS. MESSINA:
I don't know
My point is, Judge, that this witness
20
took affirmative steps to push the plot along as reflected in
21
the government -- I believe -- I don't know what number it
22
was, but the -- the classified document they gave us just
23
before trial started about how they -- they tasked Steven
24
Francis to push the plot along.
25
specifically, that he took affirmative steps, what this
GR
OCR
CM
I am asking about that
CRR
CSR
3088
information would show.
It would show he said
something -- Steven Francis to the woman at the Immigration so
that Abdel Nur could actually acquire the travel document
quicker.
happen, that he would miss out on a business deal.
He misrepresented something in order for that to
I don't even enter that statement.
It wasn't even true.
It's not for the
truth, frankly.
he was willing to misrepresent something to speed along the
process to get Nur a travel document.
10
MR. JONES:
11
MS. MESSINA:
12
That was the fact, that
I don't see how it is relevant.

It is relevant to our defense.
critical, that he was anxious to move the plot along.
13
MR. JONES:
14
MS. WHALEN:
See if he remembers.
I'm sorry, Your Honor.
15
Mr. DeFreitas hasn't gotten a refill on his medication.
16
are trying to get that done.
17
is he -- he hit the refill level.
18
doctor before a refill.
19
tomorrow.
MS. MESSINA:
21
MS. WHALEN:
23
24
25
doctor.
He needs a break.
We
The problem
He has to be seen by the
We are trying to get it done for
He needs a few more breaks.
20
22
That's
Not tomorrow. There isn't any -That's why we can get him to see the
It's the reason we haven't been able to.

THE COURT:
Why don't we take the break now?
can regroup.
MS. MESSINA:
GR
OCR
Okay.
CM
CRR
CSR
You
1
(In open court.)
THE COURT:
break at this point.
3089
We are going to take our mid-afternoon
Once again, I remind you, ladies and gentlemen, that
4
5
when we have these sidebars you are not to speculate as to
what is being discussed.
Remember, legal issues are my province.
your province.
I am addressing legal issues.

Issues of fact are
I may have some additional discussions with counsel.
9
10
So rather than keep you here, we will take our break at this
11
point.
I would say approximately ten minutes or so.

Remember not to talk about the case, not to form or
12
13
draw any conclusions about the case.
14
cellphones at this point in time so that we can expedite the
15
break.
16
Okay.
You can't use your
Be careful stepping down.
17
headsets there just leave them on your seat.
18
stepping out there.
And if you've got

Be careful
19
(The following occurred in the absence of the jury.)
20
THE COURT:
21
Mr. Francis.
22
government team.
You are still on cross-examination,
So you can't discuss your testimony with the
23
THE WITNESS:
24
THE COURT:
25
Yes.
All right.
We will take about a
ten-minute recess, marshals.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3090
You also can take a recess, sir.
You may want to wait just a minute.
THE WITNESS:
(Recess taken.)
Thank you.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3091
1
THE COURT:
not present.
Court.
The jury is not present.
The witness is
All the other parties are present before the
I just wanted to ask whether there's anything that,
Ms. Messina, that you or the government wanted to raise by way
of legal argument before we brought the witness back in and
then the jury?
Are you all set to move forward?
MS. MESSINA:
We had left it where I was about to
10
ask if I can show him the document that I got a clean copy of,
11
that I already put on the record --
12
THE COURT:
13
MS. MESSINA:
14
THE COURT:
16
MS. MESSINA:
18
19
-- to refresh his recollection as to
the question I asked.
15
17
Yes.
presenting:
Okay.
So I know in terms of what I'm
Are we ending at 5:00?
THE COURT:
Let's see how far we get.
Probably.
Probably not more than 5:30.
20
(Jury present.)
21
THE COURT:
22
Do the parties agree that all of our jurors are
23
present and properly seated?
24
MR. JONES:
25
MS. WHALEN:
Yes, your Honor.

Yes, your Honor.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
MR. NKRUMAH:
THE COURT:
3092
Yes, your Honor.

This is continued cross-examination of
Mr. Francis by Ms. Messina.
You can set up.
I remind you, sir, that you are still under oath.
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
BY MS. MESSINA:
with Abdel Nur to an Immigration office; do you remember --
Mr. Francis, before the break, we spoke about you going
10
Yes.
11
12
travel document so that he could go to Trinidad?
13
14
meaning Abdel Nur.
15
16
affirmatively said something to the lady there to help get the
17
travel document for Abdel Nur?
18
I don't remember.
19
And I'm going to ask that the witness be shown what has
20
been marked Defendants' Exhibit B, which is Government's
21
Exhibit 3500-SF-99?
-- and how you were there assist him in obtaining a
I was there to accompany him to get his travel documents,
Correct.
A.R.
I specifically asked you if you yourself
22
THE COURT:
23
MS. MESSINA:
24
THE COURT:
25
Yes.
May I approach the witness?
Yes.
Can you please take a look at that document?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3093
(Pause.)
1
2
read the first three paragraphs of that document, and, when
you're finished, to look up.
(Pause.)
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Mr. Francis, to yourself, I'm going to ask you to simply
Are you done?

Yes.
Does that refresh your recollection at
all?
10
THE WITNESS:
11
THE COURT:
12
MS. MESSINA:
Yes.
You may inquire.
13
Mr. Francis, when you accompanied Mr. Nur to the
14
Immigration office, did you say anything to the woman there to
15
help assist him get his travel document quicker?
16
17
the -- Abdel Nur on what basis actually he was going to apply
18
for this traveling.
19
that he was going on a business venture, and this was actually
20
an idea that Rutherford had from the beginning.
21
he would send him as a scout to Trinidad, and the reason of
22
going, he would say when he was asked and questioned, that he
23
was going on a business venture, by the Immigration, of
24
course.
25
I remember that -- the nature of the traveling.
I asked
He mentioned that he was going to say
He said that
And that was a lie; correct?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
to say.
You said this yourself to the lady; correct?
I was an extension of what actually Abdel Nur and
Rutherford told me to say.
It was what I was told by Rutherford as well as Abdel Nur
Just to understand -THE COURT:
7
8
3094
The question is just, very simply, did
you in fact say that to the woman that was assisting?

THE WITNESS:
When she asked us both what was the
10
nature of our traveling, I actually agreed, and I told them,
11
as well as Abdel Nur, the nature of the traveling was business
12
and not pleasure.
13
So, you lied to her?
14
I told her what I was told, yes.
15
And in doing that, you told them you were down on your
16
luck and you needed a travel document quickly; correct?
17
No.
18
Mr. Francis, the reason you got involved in all this is
19
because you wanted a sentence that wasn't twenty-five to life;
20
is that right?
21
22
Mohammed approached me with the idea.
23
24
wanted a deal so you wouldn't get a twenty-five-to-life
25
sentence?
I don't recall that exactly, no.
The reason I got involved in this plot is because Sheik
The reason you got involved with the FBI was because you
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
THE COURT:
MS. MESSINA:
3095
You mean initially?

Yes, initially.
Correct?
Yes.
A twenty-five-to-life sentence is a huge amount of time;
would you agree?
That is correct.
And your sentence was open, and it's still open now?
Yes.
10
And at this point of this conspiracy, things weren't
11
going so well; correct?
12
MR. JONES:
Objection.
13
THE COURT:
At which point?
14
At the point where you're trying to get to Trinidad and
15
the group is having arguments.
16
What is the question, again?
17
Things weren't going so well in this conspiracy?
18
That is not correct.
19
Well, how were things going well?
20
Again, Rutherford and Dawood has actually stepped out,
21
and Sheik Mohammed went and got other avenues, including the
22
one from Abdel Nur.
23
24
was the one from Abdel Nur?
25
I'm talking -- I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.
What
What are you referring to?
When the fallout of Rutherford and Dawood, Sheik Mohammed
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3096
started inquiring to other people, including Abdul Kadir,
including Shafiq, Abdul Wahab and Sheik Ibrahim Kareem.
he actually went on a venture to actually find those that were
interested in the plot and continue on.
heard of Abdul Kadir.
the fall of 2006, that fell apart; correct?
In the fall of 2006 --
Or the winter?
10
In the winter 2006, it didn't fall apart.
11
Mr. Francis, at some point, the initial people that you
12
had been meeting with in the fall and into the winter of 2006,
13
that group disbanded, they broke apart; correct?
14
Yes.
15
It was you, Mr. Defreitas; that was it?
16
That is correct.
17
And you wanted this case to go on for your own personal
18
reasons; correct?
19
Defreitas wanted the plot to continue.
20
I'm asking you personally, you wanted this to go on, too,
21
so that you might benefit in the end and not have to go to
22
jail?
23
24
involved in other investigations.
25
amount to anything, I had other investigations that I was
So,
I'm talking about before that point, before you even

The conspiracy involving the others in
But I still was with Sheik Mohammed at that point.
I was collecting enough information, and I was actually
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
So, if the matter didn't
3097
actually partaking in.
This was the major one you were doing then; right?
It was of the major investigations.
It was the major investigation?
It was of the major investigations.
investigations that were as strong as this one.
full-time; correct?
I'm sorry?
10
At this particular time, you were spending your time in
11
Guyana -- right?
12
13
14
apart?
15
16
Okay.
There were more
At this particular time, you were working with JTTF
At which time?
-- or the United States, at the time that the plot fell
I'm sorry.
Let me rephrase it.
17
THE COURT:
18
MS. MESSINA:
Do you mean in February of 2007?

I do.
I mean in February of 2007.
19
I was in Guyana at that time, yes.
20
Now, at some point, you meet with this man named Wahab?
21
Yes.
22
How did you know Wahab?
23
I met him through Nero.
24
And Wahab mentions to you he knows two people who he
25
thinks might be interested; right?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3098
Yes.
And --
Interested in what?
What?
Interested in what?
You are trying to still, you and Mr. Defreitas, further
the plan; is that right?
yes.
Sheik Mohammed was interested in continuing the plan,
10
And you're right next to him?
11
I, right next to Sheik Mohammed, yes.
12
And by the way, Mr. Francis, you were making phone calls
13
to contact people at this time to see if they were interested
14
in the plan; right?
15
Not me.
16
When you speak to Wahab, how do you first meet him?
17
you walk to where you think he lives?
18
19
his daughter at the school, and that's where we first met, and
20
we exchanged greetings at that point.
21
And then shortly thereafter, you present the plan to him?
22
No.
23
How long after do you present the plan to him?
24
We have met with Abdul Wahab prior to the fallout of
25
Rutherford and Sheik Dawood.
Do
Do you call him?
The first day I meet Wahab, Sheik Dawood was picking up
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
Sheik Mohammed and I both have
CSR

1
3099
met him with Nero.

And the reason why actually Sheik Mohammed failed to
2
3
bring it up to him or to the attention of Abdul Wahab is
because Abdul Wahab is Shiite Muslim and equal of Sheik
Mohammed.
that he's a Shiite to Sheik Mohammed?
was not presented only per se as a plot.
I don't understand what that means.
What does it matter
When Sheik Mohammed decided to bring the plot to him, it

It was presented to
10
him that we had differences with Sheik Talib Rutherford and as
11
well as Sheik Dawood, and that Sheik Mohammed was very
12
concerned about our lives in Guyana.
13
presented to Abdul Wahab.
14
So, what does that have to do with being a Shiite Muslim?
15
Because as a Shiite Muslim, Sheik Mohammed believed that
16
by him telling Abdul Wahab about the matter that happened in
17
the office of Sheik Rutherford, he feel that he would be
18
protected from anything that can happen afterwards.
19
Was Wahab some kind of a strong man?
20
Yes, he is.
21
What makes you think he could protect you?
22
I told you that Sheik Mohammed felt that way.
23
What does that have to do with him being a Shiite?
24
Because Sheik Mohammed is also a Shiite Muslim.
25
And Rutherford was not?
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
This is how the plot was
3100
He was not.
Now, Sheik Wahab -- does that mean he's an older man,
also; is that why you call him "Sheik"?
He's a knowledgeable Muslim brother.
How do you tell that someone is knowledgeable?
Because they claim it.
I don't understand.
someone "Sheik," when you just meet them?
At what point do you start calling
When Sheik Abdul Wahab mentioned that he had studied, in
10
Suriname, Islam, allows me to understand that he is a sheik or
11
a person that has more knowledge than just reading a book.
12
And when a person is the elderly, in the case of
13
Sheik Mohammed, because I believe his age would allow me to
14
understand that he's an elder, Sheik Mohammed, because he is
15
an elder person, as respect.
16
do that.
17
18
named Osama; correct?
19
Osama.
20
Is he a sheik, as well?
21
I don't know that.
22
know if he's knowledgeable.
23
Also, he introduces you to Sheik Abdul Kadir?
24
Yes.
25
Before that point, had you ever heard of Sheik Abdul
This is a tradition in Islam to
Sheik Wahab introduces two names to you.
One is someone
He's a sheik as an elder, I don't
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3101
Kadir?
I have heard of Sheik Abdul Kadir before, yes.
In what context?
I was walking in the streets with Abdel Nur after my
first trip, after my phone was taken the first time, and we
were walking in Georgetown, we exchanged greetings, and he
gave me his personal card.
been Mayor of Linden; is that right?
10
11
And that's when you said he introduced himself as having

Do you remember that?
That he was former mayor of Linden, yes.

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3102
BY
And a former parliamentarian as well?
I don't know that.
You met outside the parliament, right?
I met him in front of the parliament, yes.
The FBI had never given you any photo of Abdul Kadir to
look for?
No.
10
And they had never given you any information about Abdul
11
Kadir at that point?
12
At no point.
13
Had Mr. DeFreitas, to your knowledge, met Abdul Kadir
14
before that -- withdrawn.
MS. MESSINA:
Do you know if Mr. DeFreitas had ever met Abdul
15
16
Kadir?
17
Yes.
18
Do you know when?
19
I don't know when.

But he mentioned to me that he knew the mayor of
20
21
Linden, which was Abdul Kadir, and that he wished that he was
22
working with us, that they have seen him when we were in --
23
going to Georgetown, yes.
24
have met him.
25
Because I mentioned to him that I
Did Mr. DeFreitas mention to you that he also bumped into
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3103
Abdul Kadir casually, such as yourself and Mr. Nur?
I don't recall him saying that.
Mr. DeFreitas knew of Mr. Kadir through a common friend
in the United States, is that correct?
I am sorry.
Mr. DeFreitas knew of Abdul Kadir through a common friend
in the United States?
He also knew a person that had knowledge of Kadir, yes.
That man's name was Bilal?
10
Bilal, yes.
11
Did you know Bilal?
12
I met him once or twice.
13
In a mosque in New York?
14
No.
15
Where did you meet him?
16
While Sheik Mohammed was doing painting in his house, and
17
also when the Sheik -- when Bilal gave Sheik Mohammed a letter
18
that he was waiting for.
19
20
Mr. DeFreitas that Mr. DeFreitas wanted to say hello to
21
Mr. Kadir because of this common friend?
22
23
Repeat that.
Were you under the impression from speaking to
At the beginning, yes.

And the second time or the second time I met Kadir,
24
he mentioned to Rutherford that he wanted to stay -- to stop
25
by Kadir's house that the trip to the interior, the second
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3104
trip, in February, when we went to the interior, Sheik
Mohammed asked Sheik Rutherford to please make a stop on Sheik
Abdul Kadir's house because he would like to say hello to the
mayor of Linden and to actually present to him certain ideas
that he had pertaining to the products in the interior at that
particular time.
yourself and I believe you said someone's daughter?
Mr. Nero's daughter?
So you take a trip out with Rutherford, Mr. DeFreitas,
10
Sheik Dawood was present and also his daughter was
11
present.
12
13
Rutherford is looking into, correct?
14
15
build a mosque and also do some facilities for training to
16
accommodate also brothers that would come from Africa or
17
Pakistan and other places as well, yes.
18
19
Sunni mosque?
20
He wanted to build a mosque.
21
Right.
And you drive to the interior to do some business that
Rutherford wanted to show us interior where he want to
Rutherford -- I'm sorry?
Rutherford wanted to build a
He's a Sunni?
22
23
He's a Sunni.
24
When you drive out that time, you do stop at Abdul
25
Kadir's house?
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3105
Yes.
And do you get out of the car?
Yes, I did.
Do you greet -- you go into the backyard of Mr. Kadir's
house?
No.
We were outside of his house.
7
8
In the front of the house?
Yes.
10
Do you -- do you introduce anything about this plan at
11
that time?
12
No.
13
You talk about business?
14
Yes.
15
Mr. DeFreitas is talking about importing or exporting
16
goods from the United States to Guyana?
17
Yes.
And just to remind you that I never introduced the
18
19
plot to Abdul Kadir.
I was -- I was -- done by Sheik Mohammed
20
as well as Abdel Wahab.
21
We will get to that.

What kind of goods were they talking about trying to
22
23
exchange between Guyana and the United States?
24
25
woods.
I remember that Sheik Mohammed wanted to bring some

He spoke about the bauxite.
GR
OCR
CM
He also spoke about sand.
CRR
CSR
3106
He spoke about the bitter cup and fat poke, some unusual
fruit, and that's as much as I recall.
interested in building a mosque?
No.
Now, you decide to see Abdul Kadir again, is that right?
No.
You and Mr. DeFreitas with Mr. Wahab go to Linden to see
Mr. Kadir?
At that meeting, did Abdul Kadir bring up how he was
THE COURT:
10
11
Is that a question?
Is that -THE COURT:
12
Is that a question?
13
That's not a question.
14
MS. MESSINA:
That's a statement.
Let me put it as a question.
15
Did you and Mr. Wahab and Mr. DeFreitas go out to see
16
Mr. Kadir after the first meeting at his house?
17
18
still out with the other group of people.
19
only until Sheik Mohammed approached Abdul Wahab about the
20
matter and Abdul Wahab had said and mentioned you should have
21
spoke to me before and none of this probably would have
22
happened.
23
contacts to contact.
24
25
I asked a very specific question.
After the first meeting at his house, we was -- we were

He was -- it was
I am going to contact my contacts in -- I have two
Excuse me, Mr. Francis.
GR
OCR
If you can answer the question,
CM
CRR
CSR
3107
If, after the first time you visited, if you went
out again with Mr. DeFreitas, Mr. Wahab to see Abdul Kadir?
We visit after that, yes.
You went by bus?
Yes.
Linden is a -- about two hours from Georgetown?
Depending on the traffic.
The bus driver actually had heard about Abdul Kadir, is
that correct?
10
Yes.
11
Did he take you directly to Abdul Kadir's house?
12
No.
13
Where did the bus driver drop you off?
14
We were dropped at the bus stop and then from there we
15
took a -- a taxi, if I recall.
16
So Mr. DeFreitas and Abdul -- and Mr. Wahab -- withdrawn.

So Abdul Kadir's name only is suggested after the
17
18
first plot with Rutherford and the others falls apart, isn't
19
that correct?
20
I cannot understand the question.
21
Mr. Kadir's name only comes up or is only mentioned as
22
someone to go to after the plot with Mr. Rutherford and Donald
23
Nero and Ponytail falls apart, is that correct?
24
25
I'm sorry.
Yes.
It was -- actually we were taken to Linden because
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3108
Abdul Wahab --
question.
We present -- we went to Linden after the fallout.
At this point you lost the connection of the man Donald
Nero who knew or claimed to know Shukrijumah, isn't that
correct?
At that time Nero has stepped away from the plot.
When you go to Abdul Kadir's house, who else is in his
10
I am just asking if there is a yes or no answer to that
house before you come with the people who you came with?
11
THE COURT:
12
MS. MESSINA:
13
14
house?
I'm sorry, Judge.
It was confusing.
When you get to Abdul Kadir's house, who else is in the
THE COURT:
15
I am confused by the question.
You have to specify which trip you are
16
talking about now.
17
18
Mr. DeFreitas and yourself to visit Abdul Kadir.
19
the second time at his house.
This is the trip when you go out with Abdul Wahab,

Now this is
When you get to his house, who else is there?
20
21
I don't remember.
22
Do you --
I don't know.
withdrawn.
At that point did you meet his wife?
23
24
25
sure.
It's possible that I have met his wife.
I am not quite
I don't remember.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3109
Did you meet his wife at some point?
At some point I saw her once, yes.
Did you meet --
Or a few times but not in this trip.
her and meet with her in the third trip.
trim?
yes, at some point I did, but not -- I don't remember if it
Okay.
I remember I saw
Now you remember she wasn't there on the first
Rather, the second?

I cannot remember.
You asked me if I met her.
I said
10
was on the second trip.
I do remember meeting her for a fact
11
on the third trip.
12
13
children?
14
Yes; I met one of his sons.
15
Do you remember which one?
16
I don't remember.
17
When you come into the house, how much small talk,
18
conversation, is there before you start introducing the
19
subject of the JFK plot?
20
I never introduced the subject.
21
One of your group, before it is introduced by someone in
22
the group?
23
24
house and we sat on the -- on the -- on the couch, and I
25
believe we were -- somebody brought in some refreshments and
On the second trip, did you meet any of Abdul Kadir's
I -- if I recall, soon after we come in to the -- to the
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3110
put it on the table and then we were left alone.
So that
period of time that just -- I just explained which I don't
remember if it was -- how long it was.
Wahab starts speaking to Abdul Kadir.
Abdul Kadir?
spoke about and Sheik Mohammed is the one to do the talking
about the JFK plot.
Soon after that, Abdel
Is it Abdel Wahab who introduces the idea of the plot to
Abdul Wahab mentions that we are the brothers that he
10
We are the brothers that he spoke about?
11
mean?
12
Pertaining to the JFK.
13
Are you -- had Abdul Kadir, to your knowledge, had anyone
14
in this group contacted Abdul Kadir about this plot prior?
15
Abdul Wahab.
16
To this date, the second visit?
17
Abdul Wahab is the one that spoke to him.
18
Did he speak to him before arriving in the house about
19
the plot, if you know?
20
Yes.
21
How do you know?
22
Abdul Wahab, when he heard of the plot and he was in
23
agreement of the plot, he say I will contact my contacts here,
24
which are two, and if they fail I will go to Surinam and
25
contact a third contact.
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
What does that
CSR
3111
When he finalize the contact in Abdul Kadir and
1
2
Osama he came to us and told us, I already spoke to my
contacts and they are going to meet you and one, it's in
Linden and the other one is here in Georgetown and he revealed
the names, which is Abdul Kadir and Osama and right
nearby -- after that, then that's when we drove or we were
driven into the house by the bus and the taxi and then we
brought the matter to Abdul Kadir.
You brought the matter to him at that second visit?
10
I did not.
11
You and the group brought it?
12
It was Sheik Mohammed that presented the JFK plot to
13
Abdul Kadir.
14
15
on -- was shown to Mr. Kadir on his computer, is that right?
16
Yes.
17
Who did that?
18
I was asked by Sheik Mohammed to play it for Abdul Kadir.
19
So you did that?
20
Yes.
21
Did you -- did you download it on the video?
22
I connected the -- the thumb drive into the computer and
23
I proceed under the instructions of Sheik Mohammed to display
24
the visuals to Sheik Abdul Kadir.
25
Who put the -- some kind of visual -- that video was put
As you testified before, none of this meeting was
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR

1
3112
recorded.
You did not wear a tape recorder on this date?
Yes or no, if you can answer yes or no?
I did not.
So all of the information about this event -- withdrawn.

That video that you showed him was not as clear as
6
7
it was when you played it for Talib Rutherford, isn't that
correct?
I played the video on Talib Rutherford's TV and I play it
10
for -- I was asked to play it to Kadir and I played it in the
11
computer.
12
Right.
When you played it in Kadir's computer, it wasn't as
13
14
clear as when you played it in Rutherford's computer?
15
It was clear.
16
But it was harder to see?
17
It was a different sizing.
18
Are you saying it was not harder to see?
19
No, not at all.
It was different sizing.
MS. MESSINA:
20
I am going to ask --
21
It will be the same size as the size that actually is
22
displayed in our -- in that when I was actually looking at it
23
here, it was the same size in his computer.
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
GR
Indicating the monitor.
OCR
That we are looking at.
CM
CRR
CSR

THE COURT:
1
2
These are the monitors that the jury has
as well as the witness has.

I am not good at dimensions.
But approximately
about 12 inches.
THE WITNESS:
And Rutherford's TV was 25 inches.
MS. MESSINA:
(Pause.)
Yes.
One moment, Judge.
Images on that video were fuzzier and less clear than
10
when you showed them on Neville Rutherford's computer,
11
correct?
12
13
No.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
GR
3113
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR

MS. MESSINA:
3114
Judge, if I may, I would like to play
a part of an audiotape that Mr. Francis had identified earlier
today as his voice.
THE COURT:
If I may before we get there?
The monitor, the screen itself, without the border,
using a ruler, 12-inch ruler, it's about 12 inches, more or
less, twelve by nine.
Twelve by nine inches.
What are you asking now?
MS. MESSINA:
Judge, I would like to play part of an
10
audio recording that -- ID 56, session one, that Mr. Francis
11
had recognized as his voice earlier today.
12
MR. JONES:
Objection.
13
THE COURT:
Sustained.
14
MS. MESSINA:
15
THE COURT:
16
(Side bar.)
17
THE COURT:
Should we approach?
Yes.
In the first place, we use exhibit
18
numbers, not the ID numbers and the session numbers, number
19
one.
20
Number two, is this a tape that has already been put
21
into evidence by the government?
22
MS. MESSINA:
23
THE COURT:
No.
The defense complained about the
24
government making proper foundations here.
25
that if the defense was going to introduce CDs or recordings,
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
It was understood
CSR

1
that you have to make the foundations.
foundations.
You have to lay the
Number three, you don't say, I want to play
3
4
3115
something that was identified by this witness.
MS. MESSINA:
I apologize.
This is impeachment based on his last answer.
This
is a conversation between Mr. Francis and Russell DeFreitas
which they identify as being right after they had this meaning
with Mr. Kadir.
At which point their whole conversation is
10
about how this video that they showed him was not as accurate
11
or as -- I think he used the word exciting, as dramatic as
12
when they showed it to Rutherford.

MR. JONES:
13
It's not what you asked the witness.
14
You asked if it was fuzzier.
15
impeach that answer.
He said no.
16
MS. MESSINA:
17
MR. MILLER:
18
or does Mr. DeFreitas say that?
I will ask a different question.

By the way, does this witness say that
MS. MESSINA:
19
Mr. DeFreitas is commenting on it.
20
He's asking Mr. Francis why that happened.
21
answering why it didn't look as well.

MR. MILLER:
22
23
This doesn't
What does he say?
Mr. Francis is
I don't think that
impeaches.
24
MS. MESSINA:
25
MR. MILLER:
GR
It is a long thing.
I don't think he adopts Mr. DeFreitas's
OCR
CM
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CSR
3116
statement.
If he doesn't adopt Mr. DeFreitas's statement,
then what Mr. DeFreitas says is hearsay when you offer it.
MS. MESSINA:
He is not denying that it didn't look
worse.
He's stating specifically in this conversation,
Mr. DeFreitas says, I want to know how come when you and I
look at it or if you and Rutherford and I -- we had it so
projected so close up that you could see any -- everything and
last night.
And Annas says, every computer has a different
9
10
format.
11
MR. JONES:
12
MS. MESSINA:
13
DeFreitas says, okay.
14
Annas says, oh, you know, I am not so well versed in
15
computers, you know.
I don't -May I finish?

I just want to know.
When we was with the Sheik Shafiq.
16
DeFreitas says, no, not Shafiq.
17
Annas says, but I am saying, when we was with Sheik
18
Rutherford.
And DeFreitas says yes.
19
20
Kadir.
We seen it good on his
computer.
21
Annas says, right.
22
DeFreitas says oh, we had a TV there.
23
We put it on his TV.
TVs.
24
There is more conversation.
25
THE COURT:
GR
That doesn't impeach him.
OCR
CM
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CSR
It was two

MS. MESSINA:
1
2
3117
I will get to the point where it
impeaches him.
THE COURT:
Besides that, you still want to get
into -- you can't just go and jump in and play some
conversation without having some foundation in the first
place.
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
9
10
11
12
are the defendant.
I understand.
If you are using this to impeach -- you
This is not a party opponent here.
MS. MESSINA:
I'm sorry?
I am using it to impeach
this witness.
THE COURT:
It doesn't impeach the witness.
13
explained that there were differences.
14
there was any difference.
15
in the size.
16
He has
You asked whether
He said that there was a difference
You ask any 12-year old is there going to be a
17
difference in the way you see something projected on a 50-inch
18
TV versus a 12-inch computer monitor, obviously there will be
19
a difference.
20
MS. MESSINA:
21
THE COURT:
May I -The other thing he said, he saw it the
22
same way it was shown to the jury here.
23
what the quality was.
24
25
MS. MESSINA:
The jury could see
Perhaps if I ask, did you have a
subsequent conversation -- did you have a conversation shortly
GR
OCR
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CSR
3118
thereafter with Mr. DeFreitas once you left and after you
showed this and was it -- did Mr. DeFreitas and you have a
conversation about how it wasn't as exciting to see the plane
when you showed it to Kadir as it was when Rutherford saw it
because of the image.

I will think of a way to rephrase that.
6
7
compound question.
conversation.
10
13
I will submit I laid a foundation.

That still doesn't contradict his
testimony here.
MS. MESSINA:
11
12
If he says I didn't have that
THE COURT:
That's a
Maybe -- judge, let me see if I can
ask -THE COURT:
He's clearly -- Annas is clearly,
14
Mr. Francis is clearly telling Mr. DeFreitas, he's clearly
15
telling him it looks different because on one I put it on the
16
TV and on the other it's on the computer.
17
impeaching this witness.
18
MS. MESSINA:
19
THE COURT:
20
MS. MESSINA:
21
THE COURT:
22
(Side bar ends.)
23
That's not
Okay.
Let's move on.
Shall we move on?
Move on.
You've got your answer.
24
25
GR
OCR
CM
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1
CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONT'D)
BY MS. MESSINA:
3119
(The following took place in open court)
Mr. Francis, at this meeting when you met with Mr. Kadir
you spoke with -- rather, part of the conversation was about
the mosque that he wants to build, correct?
The conversation.
When you went with Mr. Wahjab, Mr. Defreitas for the
second visit to Abdul Kadir's house.
10
I'm sorry.
When?
THE COURT: When you played the video for Mr. Kadir.
11
That meeting.
12
The conversation was about the JFK plot.
13
And you spoke about the fact that he wants to build a
14
mosque?
15
16
mosque.
17
18
States?
19
I was asked if I met him.
20
And Mr. Kadir asked if you could bring documentation and
21
promotional material about this mosque to your contact and
22
Mr. Defreitas' contacts in the States, correct?
23
24
-- eventually to do that, yes.
25
He eventually said, yes, he that wanted also to build a
In fact, you also spoke about Mr. Bilal in the United
He did not ask me.
He asked Sheikh Mohammed to do that
And so he gave Mr. Defreitas information about his mosque
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3120
to bring to the United States?
Yes.
He also gave him other things that he thought might
assist Mr. Defreitas in promoting his mosque in the United
States?
Yes, that's correct.
He gave him documentation about his children, correct?
Yes.
And he asked that this might be presented to
10
Mr. Defreitas' mosque contact and other people in the United
11
States, correct?
12
13
conversation, as I recall.
14
No.
Actually, didn't -- it wasn't like that -- the
At no time in this conversation -- withdrawn.
15
Do you remember how long after this meeting with
16
Mr. Kadir you got back to Louie Napoli to tell him what
17
happened?
18
I don't remember.
19
You can't even remember if it was that night, the next
20
day, or the next week?
21
22
memory, or if you have anything to refresh my memory.
23
It has been quite a long time.
If you can refresh my
MS. MESSINA: One moment, Judge.
24
Let me just ask you a question, Mr. Francis.
25
any at all instruction for you of how quickly after the event
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

Was there
3121
they would -- Mr. Napoli would like it to get back to them?
No.
I would assume sooner is better than later; is that
correct?
Yes.
MR. JONES:
THE COURT: Sustained as to form, and the answer
stricken.
Objection.
Did Mr. Napoli ever tell you get back to us as soon as
10
you can, of course in keeping with your safety, to give us
11
information about what you just heard and seen?
12
13
way that is actually the configurations of the nature of the
14
country.
15
call.
16
calling to inform of my whereabouts and what I'm doing as I
17
report.
18
You had a cell phone, right?
19
That's correct.
20
And obviously, if you reported something back to them
21
sooner -- after the event, your memory would be better about
22
what happened?
23
Not necessarily.
24
Did your memory get better when more times goes on?
25
Yes.
I have to do with safety again and because of the
Actually, I have to find a place to actually make a
This is not a call to my family or my mother.
MR. JONES:
Objection.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

It is

1
3122
And again, you were supposed to in these reports to
Mr. Napoli tell him the important information from what you
saw and heard?
THE COURT:
Asked and answered.
You testified on direct that part of your conversation
with Mr. Kadir on this date involved blueprints, you remember
testifying to that?
I'm sorry.
10
You testified that part of the conversation you had with
11
Mr. Kadir this day involved blueprints?
12
That's correct.
13
And you also testified that it involved timing of when
14
you say he told you would be a good time to do this in terms
15
of day or night?
16
No.
17
Okay.
18
Actually, it was Sheikh Mohammed that I was telling.
19
Sheikh Abdul Kadir of when is actually the best timing of the
20
attack.
21
morning.
22
23
particular meeting -- the second meeting?
24
Between Sheikh Mohammed -- I'm sorry?
25
Sheikh Mohammed and Abdul Kadir?
This is wrong.
Be either nighttime or before the dawn in the
But that conversation occurred, you are saying, on that
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3123
That's correct.
So you specifically had a conversation included in this
meeting with Mr. Kadir about the JFK plot, correct?
I don't understand the question. I'm sorry.
The second meeting with Mr. Kadir, okay?
Yes.
You talked about the JFK plot, right?
I did not talk about the JFK plot.
Kadir and Abdul Aram (ph) and I was listening to the
It was Mohammed and
10
conversation.
11
You were part of the group?
12
That's correct.
13
And you also -- the group talked to him, you said, about
14
a blueprint, correct?
15
That came up, blueprints?
16
He mentioned that.
He asked Sheikh Mohammed if he had
17
any blueprints.
18
time, but he also Sheikh Abdul Kadir asked will you be able to
19
get blueprints and Sheikh Mohammed said, yes, I am able to get
20
blueprints.
21
22
and rather Mr. DeFreitas would task himself to try to do down
23
the road, right?
24
I don't know that.
25
Well, did you or Mr. Defreitas ever try to get blueprints
Sheikh Mohammed said he didn't have it at the
So if he mentioned that, that would be something then you
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
of JFK airport?
asked me to get the blueprints.
Never did.
That I have no knowledge of.
And that's because -- withdrawn.
3124
Sheikh Mohammed never that I remember asked -- never

So that's why I don't recall.
Did he ever do it to your knowledge?
And you also mentioned on direct testimony that the
name Shukrijumah came up during that conversation with
Mr. Kadir, do you remember saying that?
10
I don't remember he mentioning it.
11
So, perhaps, he never did mention Shukrijumah?
12
The conversation came about but I didn't mention it.
13
Do you know if Shukrijumah was mentioned in that
14
conversation?
15
16
we being in Guyana, and the reason why we came back, and the
17
reason why Abdul Douwad was being sent by Abu Bakr to findings
18
of Shukrijumah.
19
20
he even knew who Shukrijumah was?
21
I can't remember that.
22
Well, certainly, if he did you would have told that to
23
Detective Napoli, right?
Sheikh Mohammed spoke the whole story about the reason of
Now, did Mr. Kadir have any kind of acknowledgement that
24
MR. JONES:
Objection.
25
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
Would you -- withdrawn.

Did you tell Detective Napoli that Mr. Kadir knew
anything Mr. About Shukrijumah?
I don't remember that.
Did you tell Detective Napoli that Mr. Kadir said
anything about blueprints that day?
say.
3125
I don't remember if I told him.
I do remember he did
MS. MESSINA: I'd like, Judge, for the witness to be
10
shown what I'm marking Defendant's Exhibit B, Defendant's
11
Exhibit B 3500 FS 113.
12
THE COURT: Show it to the witness.
13
MS. MESSINA: Thank you. Just take a look at that.
14
15
16
Can you read it?

THE COURT:
Just read it to yourself and let us know
when you are done, please.
17
THE WITNESS:
The whole document?
18
MS. MESSINA:
19
THE COURT:
20
MS. MESSINA: Yes, I would.
21
(Witness perusing)
22
MS. WHALEN:
23
The whole document.

You want him to read the whole document?
Your Honor, can we approach side bar?
24
25
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3126
(The following took place at side bar).
MS. WHALEN:
Judge, this 302 reports a claim that my
client had a plot to kill Rutherford.
I just want to ask
counsel not to elicit that and if it sounds like the witness
is going to say anything I want you to be prepared for me to
object and to stop the proceeding, so that he can be
instructed at side-bar not to bring this out and in fact, now
that I think about it, I just -- this witness tends to talk a
lot, doesn't answer yes or no, and I just would like an
10
instruction that he's not to discuss this portion of, if I
11
could get that.
12
13
14
THE COURT: I mean I just don't understand where we

are going anyway.
MR. JONES:
I didn't want to object.
I think you
15
saw what was going to be an objection because it was about
16
what is about to happen here.
17
don't remember telling the detective. Now she's showing him
18
something to prove what?
19
said I don't remember doing it.
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. MESSINA:
22
23
I think the witness says I
That it's actually not in here.
It is not there?
It refreshes his recollection that he
didn't tell him.

THE COURT:
Please let's move on.
24
25
He
(Continued on next page).
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
3127
(The following took place in open court).
BY MS. MESSINA:
that document any more.
recall if you said anything about to Detective Napoli about
anything about blueprints, correct?
I do recall the blueprints, yes.
My question is if you told Detective Napoli about whether
Mr. Kadir said anything about blueprints.
Mr. Francis, your last answer, you don't have to look at

I want to get back to it.
You cannot
10
MR. JONES:
11
THE COURT: He's answered the question already.
12
Objection.
Move
on to something else, please.
13
MS. MESSINA: Okay.
14
Mr. Kadir suggested Google Earth, correct?
15
Yes.
16
Anything you want and he showed you something on Google
17
Earth, correct?
18
Yes.
19
To demonstrate it for you; is that your impression?
20
That was actually what he did.
21
And he showed you something in Guyana, correct?
22
That was the image that was left in the computer because
23
his internet access has been declined at the moment.
24
25
Earth even existed, if you know?
At that point was Mr. Defreitas even aware if Google
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3128
know what Google Earth was, and that's the reason why Abdul
Kadir point out the icon and he told me to hit the icon, so he
can open up into his computer.
Earth, correct?
Of Google Earth.
Right. And when you came back to the States and you
actually did download something from Google Earth, correct?
He said he did not know.
Sheikh Mohammed said he did not
So he introduced Mr. Defreitas to the idea of Google
10
I was asked by Abdul Kadir to download Google Earth into
11
the computer to look at JFK from Google Earth.
12
13
Google Earth?
14
Yes.
15
And --
16
What image?
17
What image did you download Google Earth in relation to
18
this plot?
19
The JFK airport, yes.
20
And when you did that, did it require any special secret
21
code for you to do that?
22
23
was directed.
24
That is all it took?
25
I was directed to do that, yes.
And you did do that?
You downloaded the image from
Needed to download the application into the computer.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
could download that?
anything.
video to Mr. Kadir, correct?
At which meeting?
This is still the second meeting when you are at his
house?
3129
The FBI didn't give you any secret information, so you
The FBI have never give me secret information about
Okay. And at that meeting you ended up presenting this
10
Yes.
11
And his response was give me two weeks to see what I can
12
do?
13
THE COURT: You know these questions, I have
14
admonished you again and again, they are statements, you are
15
not testifying here.
16
MS. MESSINA:
17
THE COURT:
I will rephrase it, Judge.

You want to testify, then you can take
18
the stand.
Ask a question.
19
20
plan?
21
Yes.
22
He said to you at that particular meeting, yes, I am
23
interested in this plan, I want to get involved in?
24
He said that he needed to get to his contact.
25
Right. But he didn't say to you I want to get involved,
Did Mr. Kadir say to you, yes, I am interested in this
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3130
did he?
to his contacts.
question. He said to you I want to get to my contacts,
correct?
he said, I'm interested, and I will get to my contacts, so as
soon as I get information from them, it will be -- it will
He was interested, and he said that he wanted to get back
Let me rephrase the question. It's a very specific
He said to Sheikh Mohammed Abdul Wahal (ph) and myself,
10
take up to two weeks.
I'll get back with you with that
11
answer.
12
13
sure he was interested, Abdul Kadir?
14
That he was interested.
15
That was your feeling, correct?
16
That is what he had said.
17
Okay.
18
Abdul Kadir had mentioned that he was interested.
19
Did you ever tell Detective Napoli that Abdul Kadir said
20
to you I'm interested, count me in, or something to that
21
effect?
22
23
have anything to refresh my memory.
24
25
interested there's another person named Osama; is that
After that meeting, so you came away from that feeling
I do not recall what exactly I told at that time.
And Wahal (ph) mentioned another person.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

If you
If Kadir isn't
3131
correct?
Yes.
And Osama would be contacted if -- tell me if this is
correct -- if Kadir was not interested?
No, that is not correct.
Well, Osama was the second person you would go to.
went to Kadir first; is that true?
Yes. Sheikh Mohammed and I went to Osama next.
Okay. Mr. Kadir asked you to wait two weeks to get back
10
to him; is that correct?
11
12
Mohammed.
13
14
understanding?
15
16
within that period of time of two weeks.
17
18
weeks; is that correct?
Wait two weeks for him, Abdul Kadir, to get back at
To see if he could contact someone; is that your
He said that he would get answers from his contacts
So, Mr. Kadir, if you can tell me, asked you to wait two
19
MR. JONES:
20
21
You
Objection.
And you stated that --
22
THE COURT: Again, the form of the question please.
23
MS. MESSINA: Yes.
24
At some point later you had a conversation with Mr.
25
Defreitas at this meeting with Mr. Kadir?
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR


1
I'm sorry.
At some point?
THE COURT:
3132
This is the same form of the question.
Mr. Francis, isn't it a fact that very shortly after this
meeting, the next day or within two days, you and Mr. Francis
had -- rather, Mr. Defreitas had a conversation about meeting
up with Mr. Kadir?
I'm sorry. You got me lost.
Sometime shortly after the second meeting with Mr. Kadir
I'm sorry.
I apologize.
10
at his house you and Mr. Defreitas spoke.
11
whether this is correct, about what occurred at Mr. Kadir's
12
house?
13
Sheikh Mohammed and I, yes.
14
And you stated to Mr. Defreitas or did you state to
15
Mr. DeFreitas I didn't feel comfortable with him, I don't
16
think he's that interested in looking?
17
MR. JONES:
18
Can you tell us
Objection.
19
Did you have a conversation with Mr. DeFreitas, again,
20
the same conversation we were just talking about, where you
21
expressed feelings about Mr. Kadir and whether or not you were
22
comfortable with him?
23
24
actually shake the hand in a specific manner, almost thrown
25
out. I don't remember actually having a conversation or me
I was -- when the second time I meet Sheikh Kadir, I was
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3133
being -- at least, at any other than actually what I felt when
that happened, but if you can recall my memory, I'm not
specifically know to what was a conversation about.
can play tape or give me a material like this to recollect
(indicating) I would be more than happy to help you with the
question.
MS. MESSINA: Judge can we approach?
THE COURT: You need a side-bar?
MS. MESSINA:
Yes.
10
THE COURT:
Okay.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

If you

1
(Sidebar.)
MS. MESSINA:
3134
Judge, I would like to now put in the
ID 56, which is a tape-recorded session between Mr. Francis
and Mr. Defreitas, in which they specifically discussed a
meeting with Mr. Kadir.

And at one point, Mr. Kadir -- Mr. Francis says "I
6
7
didn't feel comfortable with him.
interested in looking."
I don't think he's that
As well as, for that, Judge, I'm going to ask him
9
10
about -- what this all goes to is challenging his credibility,
11
when he says that Mr. Kadir said he was interested in the
12
plot.
13
speak.
He came away feeling he was down with the plot, so to
The very next recorded meeting we have with
14
15
Mr. Defreitas, he's wondering if it's wise to wait two weeks,
16
and almost -- then, in another conversation he has with
17
Mr. Defreitas on February 22, starts calling Wahab, which --
18
as though Mr. Kadir isn't actually interested, and he's
19
seeking out the other person who he was going to go to.

So, I think it's relevant, because it goes to our
20
21
defense and it goes to his credibility, and he said he can't
22
remember.
23
recollection about what happened and when he had that
24
conversation and what that conversation is about.
25
I would like to play it to at least refresh his
THE COURT:
You're not going to play that in front
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
of the jury to refresh his recollection.
evidence.
MS. MESSINA:
3
4
of the jury.
that conversation.
transcript.
It's not in
I can't do it in front
I would like to refresh his recollection through
THE COURT:
I understand.
3135
If you have a transcript, show him the
Why do you have to play the tape?
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
I'll show him the transcript.

You're not going to play the tape in
10
front of the jury.
Do you want me to take the jury out and
11
refresh his recollection by playing the tape?
12
MS. MESSINA:
13
Okay.
14
THE COURT:
15
(Pause.)
16
MR. JONES:
No.
Let me show him the transcript.

Just one second.
If she wants to show him the transcript
17
of the call and ask if it refreshes his recollection, we don't
18
object to that.
19
he wants of the transcript, and not one line that she points
20
him to.
21
He should be given time to review as much as
MR. MILLER:
It comes in the course of a quite long
22
conversation about this meeting, and there's discussion about
23
the two weeks, and there's discussion about how great the
24
meeting was, and then there's the one line that Ms. Messina is
25
picking out.
We want to make sure, if the witness is shown
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3136
the transcript, he's allowed to read the entire course of that
conversation, so as not to mislead the witness.

MS. MESSINA:
That's fine.
It's a long transcript.
specific line where he says that.

THE COURT:
Maybe we should break.
I would draw his attention to the
Well, you can't just show him one line,
if it's a long conversation and it's taken out of context.
That's ridiculous.
MS. MESSINA:
9
10
I would ask that we break, and he can
review the whole transcript.

THE COURT:
11
You have to change your line of
12
questioning.
I understand completely why he's confused.
You
13
cannot keep on making statements and tacking on, Is that
14
correct?, and make it a question.
15
leeway that you have on cross-examination.
16
stand there and make statements and just wait for the answer.
17
Just because you ask it with the tone of a question doesn't
18
mean that it's a question.
There's a certain amount of

You can't just
If I stand here and say, It's raining outside, and
19
20
make it sound like a question with the inflection of my voice,
21
that doesn't make it a question.
22
MS. MESSINA:
23
My concern is asking open-ended
questions.
THE COURT:
24
25
It's still a statement.
You don't have to ask open-ended
questions.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3137
If you ask a more pointed question instead of these
1
2
long, convoluted, Is it correct?, Is it not that?, that's half
a sentence right there.
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
What do you want to do?

Let's break.
It's been a long day.
We're going to break until Monday.

I suggest that you sit down and formulate your
7
8
questions better.
I really don't like to interrupt an
attorney's questioning.
MR. MILLER:
10
I don't like doing that.

Your Honor, with the defense's
11
permission, we won't have any conversation with the witness,
12
we could provide him with a copy of this transcript, either in
13
court right after the session or over the weekend or however
14
the parties wish to save time.
15
a.m. on Monday.
16
transcript while the jury sits around.
I would hate to have him review the
17
MS. MESSINA:
18
MR. JONES:
19
We'll have him come in at 9:00
I have no objection to that.

If counsel is here and the jury is gone,
we can do it that way.
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. WHALEN:
We can do that.
Judge, just because of Mr. Defreitas's
22
medication, the defendant doesn't want to sit through the
23
reading.
THE COURT:
24
25
We're not going to ask him any
questions.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
(In open court.)
THE COURT:
3138
Given the lateness of the hour -- it's
been kind of a long day -- we're going to break here.
is actually Thursday, so you don't get to come here tomorrow.
We're off on Friday.
You're disappointed.
We'll see you Monday.
Today
I know you are.
We will see you here Monday
at 9:30.
and bright and fresh and alert Monday for a very full day.
will proceed with the continued cross-examination of
10
Don't go out Sunday night, because we need you nice
Mr. Francis.
So, Mr. Francis, we're going to need you to come
11
12
back, as well, as I mentioned to you before.
13
cross-examination, you may not discuss your testimony with
14
anyone from the government's team.
15
THE WITNESS:
16
THE COURT:
17
We
Because this is
Yes.
And scheduling and that sort of thing,
you can certainly discuss with them.

Ladies and gentlemen, you know the drill.
18
Don't
19
form or draw any conclusions about the case.
Don't look or
20
read or see or listen to anything that might be reported about
21
this case.
22
electronic or otherwise, about anything concerning this case.
23
Don't talk about the case among yourselves or with anyone
24
else.
25
yourselves.
You can't do any research over any kind of media,
And we will see you on Monday.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
Take good care of
3139
We'll see you Monday at 9:30.
(Jury excused.)
THE COURT:
Ms. Messina, you have some documents up here on the
witness stand.
Everyone can remain seated.
Can you pick them up, please?
MS. MESSINA:
Enjoy your weekend.
The government has provided a copy of
the Identification 56 that we have been talking about.
give it to the witness?

THE COURT:
Can I
Yes.
Mr. Francis, we're not going to ask you any
10
11
questions right now, but just to save time later on, you're
12
being provided with a conversation.

I guess we'll mark it as Defendant's Exhibit D.
13
14
It's ID --
15
MR. JONES:
56, Session 1.
16
THE COURT:
-- 56, Session 1.
17
If we can just impose on you, please, to just read
18
that to yourself.
It's meant to hopefully refresh your
19
recollection, and we'll pick up on Monday.
20
THE WITNESS:
21
THE COURT:
Okay.
Defendants don't need to sit here for
22
this, because we're not going to be doing any questioning.
23
they want to go for the day, they can.
24
25
If
Any other discussion we'll have shortly is going to

be scheduling for next week.
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR

1
(Defendants excused.)
(Pause.)
THE COURT:
transcripts that were prepared?
MS. MESSINA:
THE COURT:
7
8
9
10
3140
Ms. Messina, do we have copies of these
I believe so, Judge.

We have not gotten any transcripts from
the defense.
MS. MESSINA:
These were transcripts provided to us
by the government.
MR. JONES:
We'll give you a copy.
These were not
11
in the original, because it was not an exhibit, but we have an
12
extra copy for your Honor.
13
THE COURT:
I would appreciate that.
14
Thank you.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ANTHONY M. MANCUSO,
CSR
3141
1
(Pause.)
THE COURT:
Can I have your attention for a minute?
This is just for some administrative matters to address in
terms of next week.
Two things that I wanted to bring to your attention.
Just a reminder that juror -- our third juror in the middle,
juror number five, has an eye doctor appointment on the 13th,
which is out in Staten Island.
us she needs to leave at 2:30.
10
I think she needs -- she told
My intention is to tell the jurors I am going to
11
give them like a little extra long morning break, like maybe
12
20 minutes or so, 25 minutes, encourage them to bring some
13
snacks and go straight through for the morning so we don't
14
lose too much.
15
I unfortunately have something that I need to
16
address myself the morning of July 14th that I was not able to
17
reschedule, which means we would likely start around 1:00
18
o'clock on that day and so again, my intention is -- I would
19
say about 1:30, to be safer.
20
MR. MILLER:
21
THE COURT:
22
23
1:30.
Yes.
I'm sorry.
About 1:30.
That will
be the 14th.
That's -- we will do the same thing that day.
24
will tell them have a nice hardy lunch.
25
the break in the afternoon and go until about 5:30 or 6:00
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
We are going to have
CSR
3142
1
o'clock on that day so we don't lose too much time.

That's all that I foresee for next week in terms of
2
3
any scheduling issues.
Then after this witness, next lineup?
MR. JONES:
We have some law enforcement officers
from Trinidad, one of which is one of the experts.
MR. NKRUMAH:
MR. MILLER:
MR. JONES:
10
Can we have an idea?

Before -I think before those is Matt Levitt, the
other expert.
11
THE COURT:
12
MS. WHALEN:
Okay.
Yes.
So it is Matt Levitt and then the
13
other -- the constables from Trinidad, one of whom is also an
14
expert.
15
MR. JONES:
16
MR. MILLER:
Yes.
The only caveat -- those will be our
17
next witnesses.
18
up from Trinidad.
19
well as Doctor Levitt has a busy schedule.
20
that we will be -- they won't be in exactly the order we just
21
mentioned.
22
The only caveat will be the individuals are

We are trying to work their schedule in as
It may turn out
Those are the next group of witnesses.

THE COURT:
Yes.
If you could let -- the reason why
23
I want to know as much in advance so that those may be one of
24
the days since they are coming from so far that we may want to
25
alert the jury that that's a day we may want to go later if we
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3143
1
need to to finish up.
MR. MILLER:
While we are scheduling, now that
counsel has had an opportunity to begin the cross, I wondered
if we had a sense for -- maybe we can talk about that a little
bit later.
Sorry, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
MR. MILLER:
I just wanted to get a sense for when
the next witness -- when we might expect -THE COURT:
9
10
Yes.
minutes.
We can talk about that in just a few
Let Mr. Francis finish, take his time and finish.
11
(Pause.)
12
MR. KAMDANG:
13
Your Honor, may I be excused?
Ms. Whalen will stay behind.
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. KAMDANG:
16
(Pause continues.)
17
THE WITNESS:
18
THE COURT:
19
THE WITNESS:
20
THE COURT:
Okay.
21
All right.
Mr. Francis, as I said, we are not going
22
Sure.
Thanks.
Thank you very much.
Are you done?

I thank you for the information.
All right.
to need you until Monday morning at 9:30.
23
THE WITNESS:
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
GR
Okay?
Thank you.
All right.
OCR
Thank you.
You can step down.
Enjoy your weekend.
CM
CRR
CSR
3144
1
THE COURT:
Thank you.
You too.
(Witness leaves courtroom.)
Just to continue with some of the scheduling issues
we wanted to address after the witness -- the witness is now
not present.
I guess you all want to sit.
MR. MILLER:
THE COURT:
I guess the last question Mr. Miller asked was how
10
You want to stand?
It feels better after a long day.

Okay.
It's fine with me.
long the cross was expected?
11
MS. MESSINA:
12
more than a couple of more hours.
13
than I anticipated, what happened today.

THE COURT:
14
My cross, Judge, probably won't be

But this has taken longer
I already said on the record, what I at
15
least made some suggestions as to what I think might be
16
helpful --
17
MS. MESSINA:
18
THE COURT:
I will rethink it.
-- to kind of move it along.
19
is hard to break old habits.
20
cross style.
21
statements an not ask questions.
22
But really I don't care for that
I don't think it is appropriate.
You just make
I also think it gets confusing and then you run into
23
problems if you misstate the record.
24
will have the transcript available to you as well.
25
I know it
That being said, you
That being said, probably all of Monday on cross?
GR
OCR
CM
CRR
CSR
3145
1
MS. WHALEN:
THE COURT: I mean given that we have breaks in the
afternoon and lunch.
4
5
Yes.
MS. WHALEN:
I think all together mine would take a
business day, so depending on when we finish again.
THE COURT: My estimate had been, given cross and
direct, and given the length of direct, in all likelihood at
the minimum I see Mr. Francis on the stand until Tuesday.
That is what I think.
10
MS. WHALEN:
11
until Tuesday and redirect.
12
13
MR. JONES:
And then there's a redirect.
Sometimes
there could be additional tapes.
14
15
I think on the cross he will be there
THE COURT: So at a minimum we're looking at Tuesday.

So, possibly, it will spill over until Wednesday.
16
MS. WHALEN:
I would think at a minimum Wednesday
17
because those are the short dates -- Tuesday and Wednesday, so
18
probably not until Thursday.
19
THE COURT: All right.
20
MR. JONES:
So Tuesday.
Tuesday is a short day. So Monday
21
Tuesday and Wednesday is really only two trial days. That's
22
right.
23
MR. MILLER:
The only other thing we might ask,
24
depending on how things play out, perhaps after the cross,
25
before redirect, we might be able to put on short Trinidadian
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3146
1
witnesses.
Nor am I sure I could keep them here for an extra week. So we
may have come to Your Honor and ask for that, and I don't
expect their directs to take more than ten minutes or so,
15 minutes for most of them, with the one exception being the
expert witness.
They are here, and I don't want to keep them here.
THE COURT:
We can always take witnesses out of
order, if need be, especially given the travel.
logistics issues.
10
Just the
MR. NKRUMAH: Your Honor, I do understand we can take
11
witnesses out of order but to do it during the middle of
12
someone's testimony, Francis would be deep into the testimony.
13
Then we will be asking jury to listen to one or two
14
Trinidadian witnesses, and then turn around, and go back to
15
Francis. I'm not sure I'm in agreement with that. I'd rather
16
just finish Francis. I mean since they are short witnesses,
17
once we finish Francis, they are government witnesses, and
18
they are officers.
19
here but because of the way the trial is going they may have
20
to keep them here against their wishes.
21
I mean I understand they don't want them
MR. MILLER:
I can't keep Trinidadian law
22
enforcement witnesses against their wishes or the wishes of
23
the Trinidadian government. We would be like to call the
24
witnesses in the order we would like to call the witnesses,
25
but the fact of the matter is we had asked the Trinidadian
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3147
1
government to provide us with these officers.
kind enough, they don't have to provide these officers. They
are here and we need to call them in a way that doesn't
infringe on what the Trinidadian government has provided for
us.
the motion and obviously, Your Honor will make the appropriate
determination but to say we can keep them here is not
accurate.
They have been
So I'm just previewing that for Your Honor.
THE COURT:
We will make
What we will do is we can do two things.
10
Monday will have to be an extra long day.
11
as we can. There does come a point sometimes with the heat and
12
everything else you get some diminishing returns when you go
13
for too long. I have colleagues that will go nine until nine
14
if they have to. I think that's -- having gone through that
15
agony myself as a lawyer, I find that's I do not want to
16
subject other people to that sort of agony but it may be that
17
under the circumstances here, given what we are dealing with,
18
it may be that perhaps Monday we'd go from 9:30 -- we will try
19
to get through as quickly as -- get started as quickly as we
20
can. We'll take the break.
21
people to get all together here and everything else has to be
22
done in the meantime and then Tuesday, perhaps, we will tell
23
everybody we have to start at 9 o'clock.
24
25
MR. MILLER:
We will go as long
It is kind of hard to get 18
That is fine with the government,
Your Honor.
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3148
1
THE COURT:
They go until 2:30 with the promise of a
little bit longer morning break, and I'm going to encourage
them to just, you know, bring some snacks from home, so that
we don't have anybody passing out, and then they'll be allowed
to leave earlier.
push it any earlier than 1:30 because I don't think I'm going
to be available earlier than that as it is -- I'm sorry,
Wednesday.
are not confused. And then if need be, we push it until later.
10
Now, the Trinidadian witnesses you were expecting to
11
And then, as I said, Monday I'm afraid to
I'm sorry.
It's Wednesday the 14th. So that you
be here when?
12
MR .MILLER:
They are -- they actually arrived.
We
13
wanted to make sure we wouldn't have a gap in testimony, so
14
they arrived, but we were expecting really to put them on
15
Monday or Tuesday, but given the shortened schedule and given
16
the apparently -- cross, it's taken a little bit longer than
17
expected.
18
That's why we were concerned about the time.

THE COURT: All right.
Well, let's see how -- we
19
will play it by ear and I understand that the defendants are
20
reluctant, but I have done it in other trials.
21
it's all that devastating.
22
confront this issue all the government's direct will be in and
23
I would expect that all of the cross at least will be in, and
24
maybe that might be a point, once the cross is done, to just
25
interrupt there and then that will give the parties an
I don't think
By the time that we have to
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3149
1
opportunity for an uninterrupted and recross, if we need it.
Maybe that's the place we can take a break.
I will instruct the jury that we are taking these
witnesses out of order just to accommodate schedules. We will
resume with the testimony after we get done with those
witnesses and that just happens in a trial. So maybe that
might be the best way.
redirect or any recross.
MR. MILLER:
10
We are not interrupting either any
I understand.
THE COURT: Kind of keeps things in a more holistic
11
frame.
Thank you.
12
before Monday?
Anything else that you want to raise
13
MR. MILLER:
14
THE COURT: Unfortunately, I will be here all day
15
No, Your Honor.
tomorrow if you need anything.
16
MS. MESSINA: Thank you, Judge.
17
MR. NKRUMAH:
18
THE COURT: Thank you.
19
(Proceedings adjourned as above set forth)
20
Have a good weekend.
21
22
23
24
25
MARSHA DIAMOND, CSR

3150
INDEX
1
2
WITNESS:
PAGE:
3
4
5
S T E V E N
F R A N C I S
DIRECT EXAMINATION
CROSS-EXAMINATION
CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONT'D)
BY MS. MESSINA:
2982
2983
3035
3119
6
*****
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
229 and 230

85
Defendant Exhibit A
3014
3021
3069
*****

(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-8-2010

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(English) Transcript of Trial - United States of America V Russell Defreitas, Abdul Kadir - 7-8-2010

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2978

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

Assistant U.S. Attorneys

For the Defendants:

Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

(In open court; jury not present.)

The government is ready.

Ready, your Honor.

put him on the stand, and we'll go get the jury.

Yes, your Honor.

looks like defense will start crossing today.

the Court know I will start, and if we have to switch gears in

terms of equipment, we will need a break.

I thought you said you were not

I never said that.

me that ability to be able to start the cross-examination.

Your Honor, I also thought, when you

asked us to arrange the cross-examination, I'm sorry, I

thought that's what you meant, as well.

opposed to whatever order we wanted to go in.

What do you mean you will start?

cross-examination starts with Defreitas.

That's not what I meant.

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

team should decide among themselves who is going to do it, but

the procedure is lead defendant goes first.

I've said before, Don't change up the procedure on your own.

You always have a misunderstanding,

listen closely enough to the things that I say.

I don't think that you

Ms. Whalen's misunderstanding, as well.

had had the cross-examination of Dawood, and the Court

specifically instructed how they would not permit me to cross

after -- on the same subject matter that Ms. Whalen crossed

It was right after we

I never said to change up the order.

That was not what I was discussing.

I'm asking the Court, in light of this

misunderstanding and the fact that I prepared to do the

cross-examination and I don't know if Ms. Whalen is completely

prepared to start today, that I be permitted to start.

not going to happen again.

I'm going to allow it this once.

Thank you, your Honor.

any question, that you ask me first.

But that sidebar had

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

nothing to do with the order of questioning.

with the substance of the questioning.

It was after the sidebar.

Ms. Messina, the Court has the last

I also wanted to alert the Court that

we need to shift equipment.

So, we need a break after the

People finish with the witness.

After the government gets done?

Blackberries, shut them off.

Any cell phones,

Get them away from the

I'm going to remind you again, with the laptops, you

I was not referring to

It was after the end of the