In designing a split system i have been informed that the percentage of the outside air in the

supply air should be less than 22%. I am assuming that this allows the system to perform
accordingly without overloading its cooling and heatingm, but thats just an assumption. I
don't have any concrete reasons for this method of designing a split system. Does anyone
have an answer?
Going by a percentage of OSA in my estimation is a bad way to determine the correct
amount of ventalation. I prefer to let the OSA air "float". That is to say CO2 controlled
ventilation which varies the outdoor air supply in response to CO2 which is used as an
indicator of occupancy. CO2 controls may be useful for reducing energy use for general
meeting rooms, studios, theaters, educational facilities, etc., where occupancy is highly
variable, and irregular.
A typical system will increase outdoor air when CO2 levels rise to 600-800 PPM to insure that
maximum levels do not exceed 1,000 PPM. The system should incorporate a minimum
outside air setting to dilute building related contaminants during low occupancy periods. A
drawback is that CO2 sensors must be calibrated periodically and setpoints may need to be
adjusted based on outdoor CO2 levels around the building.
I've heard of coil freezing problems of DX units when using a high percentage of outside air.
Heat pumps (if so) do not have the capability for large OSA.
I will confirm coil freezing problems with high OA percentage on DX coils.
You can get very expensive controls and equipment that will minimize but not eliminate coil
freezing problems.
I haven't heard any such restriction on OA just because a system is split. I know that typical
"off the shelf" rooftop units for example can only handle about 20% OA (at least in Chicago).
This is primarily due to the high latent heat load in th summer. Rooftops generally have
"minimal" coils that can't handle low ST Ratios.
For those who cautioned about coil freezing, please elaborate. Are you saying that the
ambient (i.e. the entering air) temp could be so low that suction pressure will fall and cause
the coil to freeze?
I have heard of limits on the small packaged roof top equipment with gas heat, due to HX
condensation problems, but not on an air handler.
Having more than 30% Outside air in very cold climates can cause problems with a standard
gas heat exchanger (furnances, rooftop units, etc) made with aluminized steel, we deal with
that by specifying a stainless steel heat exchanger in any rooftop unit with high O/A
percentages.
I think stainless HX's on the regular packaged stuff, tubular or clamshell be challenged with
the cold prairie air Chris.
Stainless clamshell on 100% outside air is a waste of money.
My days of 40 below and 4 feet of snow ended 8 years ago

Stainless steel works just fine with cold.... what else could we use?
I've seen premature failures with aluminzed steel HX and high O/A loads.
It is currently a balmy -26C (-15F) and we're expecting another couple inches of snow...
Everytime I read your warm weather posts Abby I think: sure I could move, but what would I
do with all this cold weather design experience? And then the weather drops another few
degrees and I think: I wonder if Abby needs a partner?
Lol, you can sit here and argue with those still up north, with the advantage of experience
with the extreme cold and the hot and humid :)
Vapour barriers, condensation are all the opposite of the north.
I have been recruitting by the way.
The comment was on the heat exchanger design of the cheap packaged unit HX or even a
stainless steel ICES clam shell. Compare it to something by EngA, drum, tubes, less thermal
stress and a condensate drain.
Regardless of design factors, New York state Department of Health code requires a minimum
of 20% OA under all (heating and cooling) conditions.
Check put ASHRAE Std 62 for ventilation requirements and apply to load calculations.
Compare with manufacturers equipment selection for maximum allowed outdoor air. Thanks
I am looking at a project that was not my design but is now mine to resolve.
Without having access to the early design decisions, it appears that the rooftop units are
about 2 x as big as necessary. When the thermostat calls for cooling, it is satisfied pretty
quickly, thus the compressor does not run all that long, so there is not a whole lot of
dehumidification going on. Additionally, this is on the coast, so all the time the compressors
are NOT running, the system is dumping a fairly humid mixture of outside air and un-cooled
return air.

As I said, these are DX units, with 2 stage electric heat. To my advantage, they are 2
compressor units, so 2 stages of cooling.
Now in the good old days, I would have used a chilled water system with hot water reheat,
cooled all the air down to 55F then reheated for comfort, thus yielding the sweetest, dry-est
system in town. But not in these energy conscious days.
To obtain a dry space, I COULD replicate the good old days, driving the air cold then using
those honking big EHCs to reheat. Not a good plan.
I COULD re-sheave, driving the cfm low, and the air cold to have the compressor run much
more of the time...except...I believe I am going to be told by the manufacturer that the
minimum acceptable cfm for the unit won't be low enough to match load/cfm/humidity to

give a comfortable space and not damage the compressor. It will be better, but better
probably won't be good enough.
So do you long-time DX guys have a magic bullet to shoot and put this high humidity
problem down?
Without the outside air, constant fan is an evaporative cooler in the off cycle, probably to get
a net moisture removal you would need the compressor running for 20 minutes straight,
other wise the water on the coil just re-evaporates.
With both stages cycled off, and that steady fan drawing in outside air, I think you are
doomed.
Slowing the fan removes more moisture, but not solving the real problem, humidity from
outside air getting pumped into the place when the compressors are off.
Add a dehumidifier if there is no way of ventilating more intermittently, or put in smaller
equipment so at least one stage runs steady.
desiccant wheel.
Replace evaporator coils with ones with low fpi.
Abbynormal is correct. I was in your shoes a few years ago with an injection molder. When
the molding machines were not at high loads the 75 ton RTUs were cycling and space temp
was at design but RH was 68%. Its the re-evaporation and not running at 100% would drive
the moisture back into the space. I tried to go to intermittent fan for a time period to get the
evap to drain but it did not improve much. Most mfg. do not publish part load latent rating. A
desiccant unit and reheat sequence solved the problems. Can you re-zone so one unit can
carry the complete space. I redid a tool room AHU with http://www.rawal.com and it helped
keep the molds from rusting.
Set up the system to use the electric reheat in conjunction with the mechanical cooling? An
option if the increase in operating costs aren't prohibitive.
It takes time to build up to useful moisture removal it takes 10 to 20 minutes of operation,
for enough moisture to build up on the coil so that it falls off. If things do stay off for a
while, that mass of moisture will return to the airstream and not enough moisture will build
up and fall off, so the moisture becomes entrained back in the supply airstream. When the
compressor cycles on and off and the fan stays on, the unit starts up and reaches steady
state; then it shuts off, but the sensible effect continues. The coil becomes an evaporative
cooler, even though no refrigerant is flowing through it. In essence that off-cycle evaporation
is an adiabatic process, with virtually no heat exchange. Then The original latent load of the
ambient air is degraded by the added moisture off the coils.
I would do two things: 1) disconnect the second stage compressor and 2)Put the fan on on
auto ..to come on when the compressor comes on.
If all else fails you might consider replacing the lead compressor with a digital scrool with
unloading down to 50%

Is it possible to use a hot gas reheat coil? You can let the compressors run making 55F
leaving air, and then reheat the air with the hot gas. Since the hot gas is recovered energy
you don't violate the energy code. We use this system quite often in Georgia.
I agree with williamGA. Go with hot gas reheat. Energy wasting aside, you probably don't
have a large enough electrical feed to simutaneously run the the compressor and electric
reheat.
Does anyone have a slick way to pipe up the hot gas reheat?
probably be a lot cheaper to just add a dehumidifier than to try and convert to hot gas
reheat.
Correction on my last post, for HG bypass, use http://www.sporlan.com/90-40.pdf For HG
reheat you would need an ORD, ORI, check valve, 3-way valve and condenser coil in leaving
air and a receiver. You should install an active drain. Sporlan used to have a guide on heat
reclaim, but all I could find was the ORD / ORI booklet http://www.sporlan.com/90-30.pdf .
You would spend tons of hours reverse engineering a HGBP or HGRH into an existing box. I
have used the Carrier and York RTUs with the factory mounted hot gas reheat coil without
problems.
Are the compressors the same size? Not likely with a light commercial unit, but sometimes
their compressors are not the same size. If they are not identical you might be able to
adjust the logic to make sure that the smaller compressor is always the first to come on.
Just something else to take a look at.
Depends on the how much oversized you are but I have seen systems where cold supply has
been mixed with return to address humidity issues. Lowers the coil air on conditions, lower
supply air conditions, therefore more dehumidification but you need to run a larger fan
(space supply air plus bypass air)
If it is so oversized, is it an option just to work with one compressor?
If you have free/cheap steam, you can also try to dehumidify the air with a dessicant
system.
I've used a system from a dutch company, and it works quite nice. Before they were called
"Kathabar" but 2 years ago they were bought. I don't remember the new name now. Try to
Google it.
Here is an update:
I got from the manufscturer that if I "lock out" the 2nd compressor I can cut airflow to 200
CFM per ton on the operating compressor.
So I am thinking: Use the T-stat to enable the compressor, and the leaving air sensor to
drive the air to 55F or colder. Using a VFD run down to this minimum of 200 CFM per ton. If
the temperature gets too far out of setpoint, ramp up the air and turn on the 2nd
compressor. But based on historical data, I don't think that will happen...maybe ever.

Additionally, carefully reviewing the OA schedule, I am able to reduce OA by maybe 60% and
still comfortable meet code.
Reduce the outside air by 60% would eliminate half of the latent load, easy experiment
Right now all the OA is temporarily blocked off until we get this resolved.
Is humidity in check with the outside air blocked off?
Take the "V" out of HVAC and you are left with a HAC(k) job.
It is much better, but since I am still doing almost no dehumidification, the answer is no.
But it IS better.
Are the DX coils split-face? Can one compressor then be locked out and the associated coil
face be blocked off. Then reduce air flow.
Realistic hypothetical: Lets say you are designing an office with DX split systems and the
load calc comes to:
35,700 sensible btu/h
3,500 latent btu/h
39,200 Total.
This could probably be covered nicely by a nominal 3.5 ton system pretty nicely. Now lets
say the cooling cfm required is 1595 based on a 20 degree TD. Would you size your unit
based on the capacities, or select a unit that can be the CFM.
I struggle with this a lot with offices because of the high sensible heat ratios where I will
have a 0.95 + sensible heat ratio. Any opinions?
Whether you size by tonnage or CFM will depend upon the air velocity in the space you're
trying to cool.
Im not sure I follow that one. You mean the air velocity in the space, not the duct work
correct?
I usually select the compressor based on thermal load, and select the fan motor based on
fan curve. Fan curve selection is based on system static pressure to be overcome to meet
flow. The static would be based on duct velocity. You have a 3 TR load based on sensible load
(1.08*20*1595=34452)), what is the duct loss at the duct velocity selected (are you using
some guidance such as an 0.08ft/100 ft from the SMACNA chart?)
One question, what is a "3 TR"? 3 ton?
I understand what you are saying, but if I selected a compressor based on the load, and a
fan based on the CFM, the unit would have to produce well over 400 cfm/ton which isn't
possible with DX equipment usually.
In my case, lets say I selected a 3.5 ton compressor to meet the capacity. Then I selected a
fan that could provide the 1595 CFM. That would equate to 456 CFM/ton. The unit probably

would not be able to do any de-humidification at all. It doesen't really have any latent
involved here but even so.
In my opinion, its better just to go to a 4-ton system.
First, you gotta do what you gotta do, you own the design, not the talk room.
Not sure how dehumidication is an issue if you have no latent load.
The CFM/TON (TR-tons refrigeration) depended greatly upon the outside air portion and
internal load. As you seem to have neglible internal and outside air latent loading-otherwise
you woud not have 95% sensible load.
At roughly tons and 1600 CFM, won't you have 400 CFM/TN? No outside air, minimum
internal load, what difference does a rule-of-thumb make? For the climate where I'm at, high
humidity, applications for 100% OA often come out to 190 CFM/TN.
Also, I typically use 0.1/100' for a smaller system, then 0.08/100' for a larger system. If I
verify the ESP and it is too low or high, then I go back and do a little re-sizing.
I know some people like to try and make the static exactly equal to the CFM they are trying
to achieve based on the fan curve but this usually isn't reasonable in my experience. I
always figured the higher the static, the more money it costs to run.
I am located in southern Florida so humidity is a huge issue. I usually won't use a outside air
unit unless the designs requires it such as in a assembly occupancy or a dense hair salon.
I would say using the rule of thumb 400 CFM/ ton is just that, a rule of thumb but I wouldn't
want to exceed that by too much.
Whether you use 500 cfm/ton or 250 cfm/ton depends upon the sensible heat ratio of the
load.
Sounds like your climate is similar to mine. We don't give the family cat a nice static shock
by shuffling across the carpet in our socks and touching it. We could light the little fur ball on
fire..
For packaged equipment (roof tops) we will size on the sensible capacity based on our loads.
Look closely at the sensible capacity of equipment you are looking at. Coil bypass factors
and related come into play in addition to the zone SHR. A 4 ton roof top unit will most likely
not give you 4-tons of sensible cooling as they are designed approximately around the 400
CFM/ton rule (meaning coil bypass factors and some assumed zone SHR?? Not sure what
they do... I used to). Thus/ with packaged equipment you almost always end up w/ an oversized jobber.
On split systems I have successfully designed larger indoor coils (for the sensible load) and
smaller ACCU's (condensing units). However check closely w/ the mfgr when doing this.
So on your hypothetical system I would be looking at a 4-ton coil (1,600 CFM) and a 3.5 ton
ACCU.

If you are starting out with a 0.95 SHR, then first question may be, are you using the dry
bulb with mean coincident wet bulb, or WB with MCDB, or dew point with MCDB, for your
load calc's. I would've guessed that you are in a dry climate.
Im not exactly sure how my program is calculating it. I wonder where I can go to find out
which method it uses... This is an office with no internal latent gains except people. Also, the
OSA requirement is very small.
There is virtually no infiltration in this building (2nd floor of a almost new 3 story
building)and the outside air requirement is almost negligible so I don't really think the
climate affects me too much with respect to dry vs humid.
If you have people in internal spaces, you are required to provide outside air which, in Fl, is
pretty moist.
Yea, I have per ashrae 62.1 - 2004 but for this unit, it is a very small amount. There are only
about 10 people that will occupy the space at a maximum. Ashrae 62.1-2004 says 5 CFM/
person + .06 the floor area. This equates to about 80 CFM of OSA. In this space I have large
western windows which is where all the sensible is coming from.
If you have large windows, you will also have infiltration adding more moist air.
13 Jun 12 8:20 If you have politicians, you will have more moist air as well.
Agree to disagree. Infiltration is accounted for in my load calc but it is very little. A
commercial building is required to have ventilation running continuously during occupied
hours. That means that the building is positively pressurized already. This building is pretty
air tight and the windows are heavy, impact windows. Not to mention, by code, they have to
be sealed to leak less than 0.3 cfm/ ft^2.
The sensible load is what gives you your cfm.
35,700 btu/h = CFM*1.085* delta T
delta T = Tmix-Tsupply
You know your delta T because you know your mixed air temperature and your discharge air
temperature. Solving it for a twenty degree delta T you get 1645 CFM.
Use your psych chart to determine what supply air discharge temp you need to achieve a
certain relative humidity in the space. Remember to use the slope at the 95 sensible ratio
line.
I'm working with an Owner that is having humidity problems in an existing office building
(small - 5000sf sigle-story office in Florida). Office currently has two RTU's, one serving an
interior zone and one a perimeter zone. Both units share a common plenum for return. To
be specific, each unit is a Trane Model WCD075C400BC.
I work in construction (so please excuse my basic understanding of unit operation) and rely
on engineers and contractors for input, but in this case I can't seem to get a straight answer.
I'm really just wondering about the basic operation of units like these. It seems to me that
diagnosing the humidity problem requires an understanding of how these units operate.

Is the OA damper fixed on units like this, or do we have the ability to open it during occupied
mode and close it during unoccupied mode?
During occupied mode, I assume the coil shuts down when space temperature is satisfied,
but does the fan continue to run to meet OA requirements (filling the space with humid
outside air)? If so, would it be OK to limit fan operation to only when cooling is called for?
During unoccupied mode, since we don't have to meet OA requirement, I assume it would be
OK to only run the fan during cooling? I also assume it would be OK to close OA damper
(assuming it's motorized)?
If closing the damper or limiting fan operation aren't options, how the heck can you control
humidity with units like these?
If this is a new installation, the Owner should hold the HVAC design engineer to fix the
problem. You hit the nail on the head on what is causing the humidity problem. This is the
big disadvantage of DX units compared to chilled water cooled systems where you can
design variable volume with reheat at minimum turndown.
The OA damper should be motorized to shut down when the unit is off. Additional controls
would be required to shut them down when the unit cycle on during setback (unoccupied)
hours.
By code 20 CFM of outdoor air per person must be supplied for ventilation. Also the OA
quantity should exceed the exhaust air requirement by approximately 0.05 CFM/SF to
pressurize the building and avoid infiltration. Vestibule at entrance would be good. I am not
sure if they are common in Florida which has no winter, but a vestibule would be just as
effective in summer if it is sized such that only one door would be opened at a time.
Why only one unit for the perimeter? Each exposure (N,S,E,W) ideally each should be on a
separate zone.
If the occupancy is variable and there is a concentrated group of people at random or
infrequent schedule consider adding demand control ventilation.
The design OA CFM should be checked and also the air balancing report.
The interior whould require constant fan at occupied mode to bring in OA for ventilation. If
windows are openable, the perimeter RTU may be set for intermittent fan operation with the
OA damper closed when the unit is off. Openable windows are considered outdoor air
ventilation source.
The engineer should verify that the units are not oversisized and that they have multiple
compressor or unloading capability. Hot gas reheat may be required to provide
dehimidification during low sensible loads.
Carrier units have dehumidification and demand control ventilation options in their DX
rooftop units.

Last resort maybe to bypass the supply air direct to the return duct as room temperature
control while controlling the cooling to maintain constant 55F discharge 55F air
temperature and adding hot gas reheat.
well put lil but that brings me to a question though. Alot of Test and balance will set
minimum requirement for the osa dampers. Why not just put a CO2 sensor in the return duct
therfore the dampers wont be set on a minimum basis? I dont know if he has a current
control system on the unit but instead of having the minimums cracked at 10 % at all times
the co2 will bring in ventilation upon demand?
If the space served is mixed occupancy, you would want CO2 sensors located at each critical
space the use the BAS to control for the room with the most CO2.
You would want balacing contractor to set the minimum OA to equal the exhaust airflow +
pressurization of about 0.05 CFM/SF.You would have to program in control override when the
system is on economizer control. Also you would have to determine how to control the return
fan to allow Demand Control Ventilation. With CV fans this may involve using space pressure
sensor to modulate the relief air damper while the OA dampwer respond to the DCV control.
One thing I would consider is to add a humidity sensor in the return to override discharge
temp sensor and subcool so that space humidity is achieved and use hot gas reheat.
The other thing is, depending on your local code official, he may let you use ASHRAE 62.1
instead of more stringent IMC. I understand that IMC is about to add an exception to the
ventilation tables that would allow ASHRAE 62.1 ventilation rates.
Another thing I would look closely at is: since this is an existing building (in humid Florida),
there may be excesive infiltration to the plenum. The return air may be bringing excessive
infiltration from the plenum, in addition to the OA. You could test the system in "ducted
return configuration" and monitor your return air humidity levels. Use a large solid canvas
duct of sort to extend the return air point down to the space and see what happens to your
return air humidity.
Does syour building have a vestibule? it may be cause for excessive infiltration also.
If your engineer has sized his fan without return air plenum in his calcs, you could convert
your exterior zones into a ducted return should infiltration happen to be a problem.
Wow, first time i've posted anything on a forum and very appreciative and overwhlemed
with responses. thank you. You've provided alot of information and probably assumed I
know more than I do. But let me try this:
With this equipment (during occupied mode): it sounds like the fan runs continuously to
maintain OA requirements, but the coil will denergize if space temp satisfied? Sounds like
overcooling (how do I sample OA humidity and make sure I'm only overcooling when
necessary?) and adding a duct heater for re-heat is the only good fix here?

With this equipment (during unoccupied mode): Install a motorized damper (if unit doesn't
already have one) and set controls to close damper during unoccupied times? Then run unit
in normal occupied mode but with higher space temp setting?
I assume that a CO2 sensor requires a modulating damper feature? Opens and closes
damper based on CO2 level?
For units like this, is a fixed damper standard equipment?

As an engineer in South Florida, I deal with this issue all the time. The hard and fast solution
in our climate is to install a 100% outside air unit to operate during occupied hours,
effectively seperating the space cooling and ventilation tasks. Trane, Aaon, and Addison are
all frequently used locally for this application.
However, 100% OA units are expensive and generally don't make sense unless you have a
high percentage of outside air such as in a school, auditorium, or locker room facility. For
your application, you are correct in recognizing that the RTU's should never be set to run
"fan only". That is a recipe for disaster humidity-wise. Your idea to add a duct heater for reheat is a step in the right direction, but Florida's Energy Code does not allow simultaneous
heating and cooling of the same airstream with a heat strip, unless the unit is a 100% OA
unit (there are other exceptions - ref. Chap 13-407.1.ABC.2.3.1 Dehumidification).
The best solution would be to retrofit the RTU's with Trane's hot-gas reheat circuit and with a
motorized damper to shut off the outside air damper when the unit is off. The motorized
damper is now a code requirement (See 13-409.1.ABC.3.3 Shutoff damper controls.) Take
some measurements afterwards to see if that solves the problem. Ducting the return might
be the next step, or see if you have any leaks in the building envelope.
I am facing a similar situation (as a designer). Here's what complicates my scenario. I have
an added economizer operation. The trouble with this is the amount of OA will then be
governed by the eco. options. If the economizer control is dry-bulb type it would allow OA
with all the outside RH into the space (Is that so?). If its an enthalpy type control it would
have control over the humidity introduced to the space. With no reheat in either case.

The trouble is we left it as an open spec on the option of economizer control. I am not sure
whats the control on the RTUs now - but the space almost starts drenching. And this is in NJ.