Mike 1833

Mike1833 (Mechanical) (OP)
2 Jan 13
16:26
Currently I am in the point of design where I must determine the outside air/ ventilation
requirements for a building by using the 62.1 2010 "ventilation rate procedure." I am a bit
confused about the two terms "ventilation" and "outside air"that are being thrown around
and would appreciate any guidance.
Standard 62.1 lists a method called "ventilation rate procedure." This method calculates
the required outside air needed based on a zone's occupancy and square footage. (I
thought ventilation was just replacing air in a volume regardless if it is outside air or return
air)
I thought there would be another set of requirements aimed specifically towards
ventilation, independent of outside air. I would think ventilation would simply be the
amount of air changes per hour that your supply air (return air plus outside air) can
achieve on a space. I was anticipating a table that would provide such values, but all I see
is an outdoor air requirement method that I described above.
Now to me, finding the required outdoor air amount to be used in a building does not really
tell me Im getting proper ventilation (air changes per hour) into my zones because the
supply air rate is what really does the air changing, and I can only base this supply air on
my cooling load since I have no other standard to look at here. This is the only method I
see, and I am skeptical that there should be more info stating how much supply air is
required to each zone to reach an acceptable air change per hour. I am new at this so I
may be missing a key point. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
DRWeig (Electrical)
2 Jan 13
17:35
Hi Mike,
Welcome to eng-tips.
In my experience, ventilation is always outside air, which is dictated by occupancy and
square footage in each space. Supply air CFM is a function of the heating and/or cooling
load in the space. To my knowledge, there is no standard for supply air per square foot (or
per person) that is independent of outside air. Ventilation = outside air.
Note: I'm a controls and energy-simulation guy, my experience is in making the ventilation
work right and analyzing what somebody else designed to compute energy use. I'm not a
designer. Hang around, there are some very experienced MEs in this forum.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
joeag (Mechanical)
I'm with DRWeig.
I'm still pretty new to this HVAC stuff myself, but as far as I know, there is no other
standard that dictates supply air other than the outside air specified in ASHRAE.
2 Jan 13
19:00
I've been working on a couple projects, and quickly looking over our calculations and
assumptions everything is wholesomely based on your required cooling and heating loads.
urgross (Mechanical)
3 Jan 13 8:46
I think you would need to consider specific applications. A wet lab may take 10 air changes
per hour, but the 10 ACH doesn't need to be outside air. Health care facilities have OA and
total ACH well spelled out. Pharmacies and clean rooms will have ACH typically based on
ISO level. Federal agencies typically have their own requirements for OA and total ACH.
While I know of no one-size fits all, airborne odor control would be a typical area where OA
is not a requirement; public bathrooms would be an example. Outside air is not always
required, return air under the door can be used.
cdxx139 (Mechanical)
3 Jan 13 9:48
Take another look at 62-2010. The Ventilation Rate Procedure uses Table 6-1 gives People
OUTDOOR Air Rate and Area OUTDOOR Air Rate. If that amount of air doesnt meet your
cooling or heating load (as stated by drweig), or ACH rate requirements (as stated by
urgros), then increase the supply cfm (usually with return air), to get the supply air needed.
I suggest you re-read 62's fine print when you want to fall asleep at night.
knowledge is power
3 Jan 13
12:02
Thanks everyone for your help. Ugross, are these ACH requirements in 62.1? These are the
kind of requirements Im speaking of. Thanks.
When taking HVAC design classes (some time ago), there were three possible constraints
that determined your supply air. The first was to figure out your cooling load on the zone.
This would be the minnimum supply air rate ( never should it go under the cooling load
supply rate). The second constraint was occupancy (say 15 cfm of supply air per person). If
this "supply air" requirement was greatest, than it was to be used for the supply air rate
instead of the cooling load supply air rate.(this is generally where Im troubled because this
was a requirement (for school, not in the standard) based on supply air, not outside air,
and that's why I was surprised to not see it in the standard 62.1). [The third constraint was
makeup air from exhaust. The supply air would have to increase if your blowing out more
than whats required by the cooling load or cfm/person (this constaint is a bit off topic since
exhaust is independent of this discussion)].
So in summary, Im looking for supply air constraints based on occupancy (like Urgross
pointed out), but also a cfm/people supply air constraint.
Consider this scenario... I have a specific room that requires 1000CFM of outside air (found
by following the "ventilation requirements"). If my air conditioning unit services 10 different
rooms, each room having a different outside air requirement, how can this requirement be
met for every room? The supply air rates to each room can be controlled with actuated
dampers, but the outside air is just going to be a fixed percentage of the supply air
regardless, right? So when a specific room requires ventilation, I would think to look for a
supply air constraint.
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!
3 Jan 13
13:21
No, the ACH requirements are not in 62.1. I don't think there is a one-size-fits all. Criteria is
usually based on a specific function or occupancy. Hospitals would be a prime example.
Refer to ASHRAE 170 and you will get recommended ACH for most areas of a hospital. Even
with that, additional criteria goes into specific areas, such as pharmacy. Room ACH might
go up to 40 for toxic compounding based on ISO level requirements. Some areas the ACH
and OA are spelled out based upon the HVAC system being used. As an example, nursing
homes require 6 ACH per ASHRAE and 2 OA ACH. If using a 4-pipe fan coil for envelope
load, the total ACH can be reduced to 4.
The OA fraction calculationsalso change with system configuration. No overall guidance is
known, you have to look at the occupancy and the proposed system.
DRWeig (Electrical)
3 Jan 13
20:17
This portion of your question confuses me:

Quote (Mike1833)
The second constraint was occupancy (say 15 cfm of supply air per person). If this "supply air"
requirement was greatest, than it was to be used for the supply air rate instead of the cooling load
supply air rate.(this is generally where Im troubled because this was a requirement (for school, not in
the standard) based on supply air, not outside air, and that's why I was surprised to not see it in the
standard 62.1)
Are you saying that your space had a requirement of 15 CFM supply air per person, not 15
CFM of outside air per person? If so, what sort of space was it? I'm curious, because 15 CFM
per person was the standard outside air quantity for a lot of ordinary occupancies back
when all we had were tables in the standards.
What everyone is getting at is this: For special areas (see urgross's replies), there will often
be set air changes that must be met. For non-special areas, such as an office or classroom,
there is no standard requirement. There is only a standard for ventilation (outside air).
As for apportioning outside air amongst your zones, you'll have to control the outside air
fraction of the AHU to meet the worst case zone's needs.
Take a look through this thread for some discussion of one way to vary ventilation in a VAV
system: http://eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=326735
Best to you,
Goober Dave
4 Jan 13
11:14
Quote (DRWeig)
Are you saying that your space had a requirement of 15 CFM supply air per person, not 15 CFM of
outside air per person? If so, what sort of space was it? I'm curious, because 15 CFM per person was
the standard outside air quantity for a lot of ordinary occupancies back when all we had were tables
in the standards.
Right. At least that is the way it was formatted in my class. It was a standard office space.
Even when analyzing standard classrooms or offices we used a certain CFM per person of
supply air to make sure it was not higher than the required load. I am going to contact my
old professor to clarify this. I may have interpreted it wrong. I knew it was given as a
supply air constraint but it really never did go over the cooling load requirement anyways.
If it did, perhaps I would have had to increase the supply air requirement for that zone, not
to 15 cfm/person, but to a higher supply air amount that had the correct percentage of
outside air of 15cfm/person.
Quote (DRWeig)
As for apportioning outside air amongst your zones, you'll have to control the outside air fraction of
the AHU to meet the worst case zone's needs.
Great point. In lieu of this topic, what if the cooling load supply requirement was lower than
the amount of outside air needed (just out of curiosity since Iv'e never encountered this)? I
would think I would first have to predetermine an outside air percentage, then raise the
supply air requirement for that zone to a CFM that contains that outside air needed. But
how can I predetermine an outside air percentage without knowledge of the new supply air
requirement? It seems like this may be an iterative process.
DRWeig (Electrical)
4 Jan 13
12:46
If it's a constant-volume air handler, no problem. The minimum outside air for the AHU was
set at commissioning time, and the supply air to the space remains constant. Thus,
outdoor air is fine at all times as long as the fan is running. The cooling coil simply cycles
(dx) or modulates (chw) to meet the load with the constant air flow, and if the supply air
flow is greater than what is needed even with supply air temperature reset, the reheat
system comes into play.
If it's a VAV air handler, it can be done in several different ways. The one in the thread I
linked above is my favorite. Without demand control for ventilation, the controller needs to
know the air flow to the space and the percent of osa in the air from the air handler. It will
maintain air flow to meet the minimum ventilation rate, no matter the load. Air flow
monitoring at each VAV box is not totally necessary to accomplish this. With a known duct
pressure and VAV box damper position, the percent of maximum supply air flow to the
space can be estimated.
In both cases, if the required osa cfm exceeds the supply cfm for a space, the osa flow rate
is maintained and the supply air is either reheated to maintain comfort or else the supply
air temperature is modulated (within limits).
You might benefit from looking into sequences of operation for AHU and VAV systems that
have already been done. Examples are usually available online from public universities -the specs for jobs to be bid are public. There might be some building automation tutorials
available that cover the topic as well. What you're asking is more of a controls issue than
an equipment design issue.
Again, my humble opinion only. I teach a couple of classes that cover ventilation control
with building automation, so I'm used to covering it from that standpoint.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Drazen (Mechanical)
4 Jan 13
14:40
mike, i believe there is nothing confusing about that, but you need to study basic
knowledge firstly, than you will not have to waste your energy in reinventing the wheel.
ventilation rate is rate of replacement of room air with outside air. period. supply air has
nothing to do with that. relation between supply air and outdoor air does affect all your
design concepts, decisions on system and equipment, but you calculate fresh air and
supply air requirements independently, one per 62.1 or other applicable standard, the
other per thermal load calculations.
==
Drweig, i opened one post some time ago, about how to ensure minimum outdoor air in
different vav setups, but did not reach "one bullet kills all" answer, which is not surprising
as that is not fully covered anywhere. if you size your vav system to ensure minimum
outdoor air rate at minimum supply flow situation, you are still not sure that each and
every zone will receive minimum, for simple reason that not all zones have the same
supply air/outdoor air ratios, and that is what system fan can deliver. if you size your
system based on zone with lowest outdoor/supply air ratio, than your other zones will be
over-ventilated, which poses energy efficiency questions. i believe vav concept itself never
solved that problem fully, and it is only dcv concept that can make more sense in such
setups, in future (until something new would be invented).
Drazen (Mechanical)
oops, i did not realized that you linked to that very post
4 Jan 13
14:42
...
4 Jan 13
15:24
Drazen,
That sounds lika a real good argument for DOAS and delinking ventilation air from thermal
loading.
DRWeig (Electrical)
4 Jan 13
16:20
You're on the money as usual, Drazen. A minimum outside air injection fan helps, but it's
not perfect either.
I love DOAS, urgross! Apparently, though, only the military and the IRS can afford it.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)
1 Apr 06 7:48
Hello, Im new in this forum and have a question.

I need to calculate de cooling load of an area that demands 100% outside air, and
to be honest, I dont Know how to do it. There are some questions that comes to my
mind: What should be the leaving air temperature? The loads produce by people,
lights, walls, etc that we estimate in a recirculating system, should be calculated in
this kind of system too?. I really apreciate some help. (Im from Dominican Republic,
so excuse my english).
Thanks.
willard3 (Mechanical)
1 Apr 06 14:35
For the outside air:
Sensible cooling
CU FT/MIN x 1.085 X outside AIR DELTA t = BTU/HR
SENSIBLE
Latent cooling:
fu ft/min x 0.66 x (delta moisture in grains/lb from
psychometric chart) = btu/hr latent
Sensible load + latent load = total cooling load for outside air
In general, cold air is delivered at 55F dry bulb and wet bulb (ie, saturated)
Building solar loads, lights, equipment and people loading should be included in
your calculations.
You should probably hire a Mechanical Engineer to do this as he is familiar with it

and you aren't.
waross (Electrical)
1 Apr 06 15:30
Hello willard3
I have met some intelligent dedicated engineers in the third world. Unfortunately,
the training and educational systems there are not up to first world standards.
pablo2410 has recognized that he doesn't have the information that he needs to
solve his problem and has wisely gone looking for good advice.
I thank you on behalf of pablo2410 for your kind help, but I wish to gently point out
that your last suggestion may not be feasible.
pablo2410 is quite possibly the best mechanical engineer available.
You may find it rewarding, willard3 to mentor pablo2410 and help him to become a
better engineer. From the tone of his post I believe he is intelligent and dedicated.
He recognizes shortcomings in his education and is trying to improve himself.
You have already given pablo2410 the basics, go a little farther and help him
through his calculations and you may find that you enjoy it.
respectfully
MintJulep (Mechanical)
2 Apr 06 18:33
pablo,
Take a look at this site:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hvac-systems-t_23.html
quark (Mechanical)
2 Apr 06 23:13
Pablo,
The room leaving air condition should always be the room condition.
Calculate heat load as per the general rules. Plot the room condition and ambient
condition state points on the psychro chart. Draw a line with a slope of SHR from the
room condition to the saturated curve. This is your dew point condition. Join the
ambient condition state point to the dew point. The total load on the coil will be the
mass flow rate of air times the enthalpy difference between the ambient condition
and the dew point condition. In some cases, the SHR line becomes an asymptote to
the saturation curve. In this case, assume some arbitrary dew point and add reheat
into the process.
The link below gives you description and details of many psychrometric processes.
Have a look into it.
http://www.coolit.co.za/psychart/
Waross,
Nice thinking and I feel that is the whole idea behind these forums.
3 Apr 06 8:28
Thank you all of you for your help
Here comes another question, how can i calculate mass flow, i mean, i know the
volume of air in the room, but how do i know how many times do i have to
recirculate it
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06 12:11
correct me if I am wrong but I am assumming you meant Volume flow instead of

mass flow.
Below is something I grabbed off a website descrbing what I think will be of help to
you.
One air change occurs in a room when a quantity of air equal to the volume of the
room is supplied and/or exhausted.
Air change rates are units of ventilation that compare the amount of air moving
through a space to the volume of the space. Air change rates are calculated to
determine how well a space is ventilated compared to published standards, codes,
or recommendations.
Air changes per hour (ACH) is the most common unit used. This is the volume of air
(usually expressed in cubic feet) exhausted or supplied every hour divided by the
room
volume (also usually expressed in cubic feet).
Airflow is usually measured in cubic feet per minute (CFM). This is multiplied by 60
minutes
to determine the volume of air delivered per hour (in cubic feet).
ACH = (CFM X 60 minutes)/(room volume in cubic feet)
3 Apr 06 12:33
What i want to know is how can i determine the CFM needed for the area.
3 Apr 06 12:39
Pablo:
The sensible heat ratio and cooling load will dictate the air changes/hour and is the
solution to the problem. Try not to confuse the cause for the effect.
In my climate, ie, 42 deg latitude and 73 deg longitude, in a frame-built, insulated

building with approx 20% glass and 8' ceilings, cfm varies from 1 cfm/square foot to
3 cfm/square foot of floor depending upon internal loading, ie, number of people,
lighting, equipment loads and ventilation loads.
BTU load varies from 30-50 btu/cu foot exclusive of internal loadings.
We have building codes in New York that make the range of these numbers pretty
small.
Your latitude is 18 deg and longitude is 69 deg, so solar loading and air
temperatures will be very different than New York. I am also sure that you
construction materials and methods are different than ours so building mass and etc
will be different
You should get a copy of ASHRAE Fundamentals Volume(American Society of

Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers); it contains answers to all the
questions you are asking. You have access to the web, so "Google" ASHRAE.
You can also use Trane software to calculate heating/cooling loads, but you need
first to understand the input. ASHRAE will be a big help with the input.
3 Apr 06 12:42
Wrong data:
Right data:
3 Apr 06 13:14
Ok, (willard3) the first formula you gave, me was a variation of the first law of
thermodinamics, another way to put it is using the mass flow times the enthalpy
difference between ambient condition and dew point condition, but in both cases i
need a flow of air in terms of mass or volume, and there is my confusion. The other
question is : do i need a 55F leaving air temperature in a system using 100%
outside air?. I make this question because i assume that in this kind of system,
there is no mix between the air in the room and the air from outside to achive a
medium temperature, because eventually the total volume of air in the room will be
exhauted and replace for a new volume from the outside, so i was thinking that the
leaving air temperature should be the temperature of the conditions i want in the
room, lets say 73.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06 15:03
I am going to take a stab at this.
Design condition:
Outside air temp (DB/WB) = 92F/68F (0.5% mean summer temp Los Angeles)
Supply air temp = 55F
Assumptions:
Dimension of space 60'(L)x60'(W)x15'(H)
20 people x 250 btu/hr = 5000 btu/hr
2.5 watts/sf lighting = 9000 btu/hr
Assume 5,000 BTU/hr exterior loads
-------------------------------------
ACH (Air change per hour) = 10

therefore CFM = ACH x Volume / 60 = (10 x 54,000 cu ft)/60 = 9,000 cfm
So 9,000 cfm is required to exhaust the room 10 times per hour.
Now to determine the load on the cooling coil:

Cooling coil load = 1.1 x CFM x (T1 - T2) = 1.1 x 9,000 x (92-55) = 366,300 BTU/hr
Summing all the loads:

366,300 btu/hr + 5000 btu/hr + 9000 btu/hr + 5,000 btu/hr = 385,300 btu/hr or 32
tons.
So to select a unit to suit all the above loads, I will select a 35 ton unit.
This is just a generic example. There are many other loads that I am not
incorporating. Hopefully this can get you in the right direction.
3 Apr 06 15:41
Ok, so far, all the things that had been told here, i already knew it.I think i,m not
asking the right question, so here i go, how can i determine the total cfm that is
required to pass trough a cooling coil in a system that requires 100% outside air, or
how do i know how many changes of air do i need.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06 17:01
The CFM required is calculated by the engineer. Typically for a laboratory the ACH is
6-15 ACH. A restroom is 4-8 ACH. (these are recommended numbers we use in our
office. These are not a standard.)
Does that help?
3 Apr 06 18:53
ok, here is the problem
a locker room
Area 3550 sqft
height 10ft
35 persons in the room
what will be the diference in my load calculation if the system is 100% recirculate
air or 100% outside air.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06 20:45
Air change method

Assumptions:
Summer design condition 92F/63F
Indoor design condition 72F
Interior location therefore no external load
Locker Room ACH = 15 (again, this is our office standard)
Volume: 3550 sf x 10' = 35,500
People load sensible = 520 btuh/person (18,200 btuh) (just got done working out)
People load latent/person = 105 btuh (3575 btuh)
Lighting load = 1.5 watts/sf (5325 btuh)
CFM = 15 x 35,500 / 60 = 8,875 cfm (lets say 9000 for simplicity)
1. For 100% outside air:

Cooling coil load = 366,300 btuh
Total sensible load = 366,300 + 5325 + 18,200 = 389,825 btuh or 32.5 tons.
2. The difference will be substantial but Locker rooms are never 100% recirculated.
There will always be some amount fresh air brought into the space.
The air change method is a simple method of getting an approximate idea of what
size unit is required. In locker room applications many times they are heated and
ventilated only. And Make-up air is usually always required to achieve proper air
balance.
Hope that clears up some questions you may have. GL
cme (Mechanical)
5 Apr 06 16:41
a rule of thumb ..... 150 cfm/ton for a preliminary sizing load
final psych chart analysis on DB/meanWB per ashrae geographic data
don't forget fan heat gain
62hog (Mechanical)
24 Apr 06 12:20
One other thing must be taken into account. If you are planning on using a
packaged system (ie., rooftop unit), you must consult with the manufacturer. As a
general rule, (at least according to my local reps) a packaged unit is only capable of
accepting approximately 25-30% of the total airflow in the form of unconditioned
outside air.
Any system you use should be discussed with you local rep. You should also require
them to also provide you with any documentation for information that may differ
from you "sound engineering judgement."
FYI, ASHRAE list the design condtions for Dominican Republic cooling, in the 0.4%
range, as 91/80 dF db/wb.
lilliput1 (Mechanical)
24 Apr 06 12:49
62hog is right. Chilled water systems are recommended for 100% OA applications.
However it is also possible to use multistage package DX AC units by recirculating a
portion of the supply direct to the return and supplying to the room only the CFM
equivalent of the OA handled. For example, if the load for say 4000 CFM 100% OA is
20 tons. Use a 20 ton unit say nominal 8000 CFM, but use 4000 CFM OA, 8000 CFM
total SA, 4000 CFM recirc direct back to AHU and 4000 CFM supply to the room.
Solve for the mixed air conditions of the OA and recirc air to get cooling coil
entering air condition. Interpolate performance from tabulated date. Solve for
cooling coil leaving air temperature. Determine fan and duct heat gains and deduct
from tabulated capacity to get net capacity.
thootz (Mechanical)
30 Apr 06 23:52
First you need to compute the total heat load .like number of window, size of doors
what materials used in the building Wall. You may find the value of each material in
Ashrae handbook or Mechanical handbook.You may also use Manual J method, a
software for load computation.
This wil guide you step by step method.
sloyal (Mechanical)
1 Jun 06 15:02
Here's my 2 cents...
BTUH = 4.5 x cfm x Delta H

H=psych chart enthalpy
McQuay & Trane as well as others have downloadable Charts that should give
Enthalpy conditions,
I prefer the straight edge on a paper graph (calcs for the files)
My design conditions are 89db/73wb Enthalpy = 36.5

indoor cond. 75dF 50% Humidity Enthalpy = 28.0
or 70dF 50% Humidity Enthalpy = 26.3

For ease of use I call it a dH of 10
Btuh= cfm x 4.5 x 10
If I find I need a 20 Ton system, I'll be very careful to select a coil on face velocity, to
avoid freeze up,
as well as Latent & sensible capacities.
Interlaced coils with multiple stages (more is better) work best.
I avoid conditioning the space with this system as it would require a larger system.
I prefer delivering room temp air & having a seperate recirculating system for space
loads. I may even deliver a portion of the "tempered outdoor air" into the return of
the space conditioning system, Possibly 100% if the cfm matches, with a return
setup for independent operation.
My winter design is -20dF so any outdoor air is heated & it's usually done with a
direct fire MAU. The products of combustion in this air has recently become an
issue, especially on units recirculating any inside air.
With these design conditions, I would look at incorporating a Heat Recovery

Ventilator. Something like a RenewAire with latent & sensible exchange can save a
boatload on the aforementioned Gas MUA w/20ton coil.
Exh air conditions (i.e. dust, oil, etc...) might prohibit a heat exchanger altogether.
good luck
slj
Yorkman (Mechanical)
1 Jun 06 19:37
One thing not to overlook is that the latent load is going to be rather high, given
that this is a locker room with showers. A recirculated system's latent loads at the
coil could be higher than the OSA senario. I would look up latent load and air
change recommendations in the ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook. It may make
more economical sense to go with 100% O.S.A. and keep my discharge air at say 60
65 degrees afterall it is a locker room. Hey I have enough problem with
shrinkage. ;>) Good luck, with this much advise how could you go wrong?
I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
A.J. Gest, York Int.
CoreTech01 (Mechanical)
4 Jun 06 13:54
Quote________________
a locker room
Area 3550 sqft
height 10ft
what will be the diference in my load calculation if the system is 100% recirculate
air or 100% outside air.
_____________________
The difference in your load calculation is HUGE.
Post a little more information like whats your design room temp? For public locker
rooms I design around a 77-78 Deg. Indoor temp year round.
A few things you need to know first about locker rooms.
Locker rooms should always be kept slightly negative.

The locker room area should be completely sealed NO plenum returns No mixing of
air with other systems.
You are allowed to re-circulate air providing it is the air from the locker room area.
You must have exhaust fans.
You dont always need 100% Outside air just enough to provide proper ventilation to
match your exhaust.
I have use E.R.Vs in locker rooms to recover as much energy as possible to lower
the load.
In your case if you use 100% outside air you will need to exhaust 110% of that air
(to keep the space slightly negative)
Thats a HUGE load to cool and then to exhaust if you live in a warm climate.
Core
ssn61 (Mechanical) (OP)
31 Jul 12
19:16
I am designing the HVAC system of a storage/warehouse in laredo, Tx, which is supposed

to be kept at 70 degrees F year round. I have been told by the building contractor that
there are no people in this place. Am I still supposed to implement outside air into the
design to confirm with ASHRAE requirements? The second part of my question is that I
have ran the load calculation using Trane Trace and not sure if the system size is large
enough. This storage is 1800 sq.ft. 20' ceiling, no load except lighting, which is about total
of 400 Watts. R value of walls is 19, and ceiling is 30. Load calculation result is 2.1 tons,
1164 cfm. This is about 860 sq.ft./ton, which seems a bit too high of sq.ft./ton I am used to
seeing.
1 Aug 12
11:33
ASHRAE 62 (if that is your code requirement) still has an Area Outdoor Rate for
wharehouses, so yes, you still need OA. See Table 6-1
Dont have experrience with wharehouses, but I think the sqft/ton Rule of Thumb you are
used to seeing is probably for office space etc (closer to 400?, just a hunch). So without
windows and OA, the ROT may climb to close to what your seeing.
Now dont forget to ad the OA
knowledge is power
1 Aug 12
16:46
Thanks for the reply cdxx. I did some google search And found the following links. I am not
sure if these are really legit or not since I ran across them online. If these douments are
correct, then I believe there is no need for outside air in an unoccupied storage. From what
I have been told by the builder, this space is just for purpose of storage.
http://www.ashrae.org/File%20Library/docLib/Public...
And
http://www.ashrae.org/File%20Library/docLib/Public...
1 Aug 12
17:02
I searched the AHRAE website for the douments I posted in my previous post and they are
on the website. So they appear to be legit.
1 Aug 12
19:11
Good one. The interpretations are legit. Questions is are they related?
The intent of 62 is safety. So if the material you store does not produce off gassing etc. And
forklifts etc are not used in the space, then maybe. Again, I have never designed a
wharehouse, (but have fought about the intent of 62 with LEED interpreters).
Builders want cheap, your job to design right. Send the builder an email, with the wording
you describe and ask if that is what the building's intended use is, when he answers you by
email, at least you have something to CYA.
knowledge is power
1 Aug 12
20:41
Thanks again cdx. In the past I have seen engineers ask for O/A inlet to be a motorized
damper, which closes shut when unit is not operating. Do you know if that is a code
requirement or a design preference?

1 Aug 12
20:49
Not very definitive answer but maybe youll get a wharehouse-experienced engineer
response as well.
My energy code (2009 IECC) requires low leakage dampers, but allows gravity dampers for
buildigns less than 3 stories.
Good Luck
knowledge is power
DrRTU (Mechanical)
7 Aug 12
17:11
I have completed numerous conditioned self storage faculties. You may not be off in the
800ft2/ton - trust your load calculations. The first few I did, I could not believe the results I
got over 1500ft2 per ton. Indoor lighting is on motion sensors and will run 0.25 w/ft2 or
less. You will need to account for outside air based upon IMC or 62. Humidity and design
temperature setpoint and minimum CFM/ft2 have a large impact on the loads. Here in the
Midwest I have had issues with moisture in first year if its a precast building, condensate
on outside walls in the winter due to packing stored materials tight to outside wall and
smoke removal systems. Why 70F? Seems very low for a thin envelope.
ChasBean1 (Mechanical)
12 Aug 12
3:00
Do you have any exhaust? If so, the minimum make-up air you bring in should always be
about 10% more than the exhaust volume...
Hello all
Two zones A&B have the same occupancy, let say 10 persons each, the load calculation
told us that zone A needs 600 cfm, Zone B needs 400 cfm fore example, and both of them
need 150 cfm of fresh air each for ventilation.
Now total cfm is 1000 cfm, fresh air is 300 cfm which means 30%.
So, 30% of 400 cfm is less than 150 and 30% of 600 is more than 150.
Am I right?
DRWeig (Electrical)
9 Oct 11
16:30
Yes.
If you want to distribute the outdoor air in a proportion that is different from the proportion
of supply air, you can't just mix them and send them down the duct. A separate temperedoutdoor-air system is needed.
If not, you must increase the outside air so that the worst case room is ventilated to
minimum required by code.
In your case, 38% total outdoor air will give you just over 150 CFM to zone B. Zone A will
be over-ventilated (225 CFM).
Good on ya,
Goober Dave
msquared48 (Structural)
9 Oct 11
19:54
Dave:
If Zone A is a bathroom, over-ventilation is a good thing.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
DrRTU (Mechanical)
10 Oct 11
7:08
Yes and no. If the system is CV, then zone B is your "critical" zone and it will drive your %
OA. This is the dilution %. If the system is VAV and has the ability to vary minimum flow to
each zone, then total OA could be as your calculation. This may require OA flow
measurement, CO2 sensors, re-heat or DDC controls. I suggest you read ASHRAE 62
documents. A properly completed ventilation schedule will reveal the critical space, OA
flow and damper min. position. Kruger has a few white papers on this topic and an 62
spreadsheet to run thru the math. http://www.krueger-hvac.com/lit/whitepaper.asp
Make sure you know which code / standard your are designing to the numbers vary. Most
load programs have the ability to specify which code you are designing to and will develop
the ventilation schedule. CO2 reset will help with high % OA.
walkes (Mechanical)
10 Oct 11
8:05
Also, if zone A is a bathroom, you would likely use transfer air to make up the exhaust.
317069 (Mechanical) (OP)
11 Oct 11
21:16
Thank you for your reply, but I have points regardless to the control system for now.
1- for CV systems,
it is ok that we need 38% OA in order to have 150 cfm of OA in zone B.
I guees this is the ratio of 150/400.
Now, If I went with 0.3 as 300/1000 that mean on unit level I am ok with the code but at
zone level I am not.
2- for VAV systems, here is the problem,
- zone B at 400 cfm, and zone A at 600 cfm, the OA %is 0.38%.
- what if the zone B box modulate to 250 cfm while zone A box still at 600 cfm?.
- Does that mean the zone B box has to has a fixed position at 400 cfm alwayes and zone A
minimum cfm is 400 cfm or more in order to keep 0.38% of OA.?
Leftyr (Mechanical)
12 Oct 11
9:31
I guess you are having a problem because you will be using an AHU system. Which force
you to mix your fresh air and return air in the unit before supplying to your two zones. I
suggest you use FCU system were you have to duct your fresh air to your different zone in
a required proportioin. That is my two cent worth opinion.
walkes (Mechanical)
12 Oct 11
13:34
Zone B may then be your critical zone that will determine the percentage of OA required
for the unit. 60% assuming that the space is still occupied at that point. If the box is
throttling back because there is no load then there may not be anyone in the space.
tys90 (Mechanical)
12 Oct 11
16:43
DrRTU hit on some of the points if you are under ASHRAE 62.1 for your ventilation code. It's
a little more complicated than you are describing. You need to follow the method outlined
to calculate the system outdoor air flow for multizone systems. It will actually end up
somewhere between 30% and 38% for the constant volume system. In the variable volume
case you have to account for the minimum airflow settings. It will increase your system
outdoor air the lower your minimums are.
DrRTU (Mechanical)
12 Oct 11
17:52
Run thru the numbers. First we need to assume you have run the loads correctly for the
systems being applied and have correctly applied the required ventilation code. Loads will
change based upon system selection.
For a CV design Zone B is the critical space. This zone will determine the outside air
minimum damper position. 150/400 = 37.5%. This will provide 150 cfm of OA.
Zone A = 600 cfm at 37.5 % = 225 cfm of OA. You will over ventilate this zone but since
you have a CV system you cannot easily alter OA flow unless you apply additional controls.
Total system = 1000 cfm at 37.5% OA.

For a VAV design Zone B will still be the critical space. Zone B maximum terminal flow =
400 cfm and minimum flow of 150 cfm (37.5% of max) from the central AHU. Zone A =
maximum terminal flow of 600 cfm and a minimum flow of 150 cfm (25% of max) from
central AHU. Total system = 1000 cfm at 25% OA. Next you need to make sure the VAV
system will provide correct SA dilution over the AHU flow range. Controls can be applied
such as DCV (CO2 sensors) or flow sensors (Trane Traq dampers) to ensure proper OA to
each zone at all times.
317069 (Mechanical) (OP)
12 Oct 11
23:04
- you said "Loads will change based upon system selection." could you please explain this
point alittle more.
- how can be sure that my load calculation is correct if I used the code value (300 cfm in
our example) and then interduced 25% more than that(380/300),what about unit capacity
in this case?
- in VAV system you said"Zone B maximum terminal flow = 400 cfm and minimum flow of
150 cfm (37.5% of max)"
if the zone B minimum is 150cfm how can be sure this 150 cfm has 150 cfm of OA,?
- if we use the same CV equation then the OA % would be 100%, and this is right if all
zones are in minimum postion at the same time then the unit will provide 100% OA. but
what if zone B is in minimum and zone A is not?
- also if zone A minimum is 150 cfm same question above?
- when one or both zones are in mimimum the total will be less than 1000cfm.
- when load droped down that does not mean for sure some people left, it could be north
zone and west zone.

tys90 (Mechanical)
13 Oct 11
10:42
Okay, there still seems to be some confusion. I used the calculator on the Krueger website
to simulate your problem. I assumed cooling mode only (Ez=1.0). Here are the results:
Constant Volume System: 325 CFM of OA required
Variable Volume System: 399 CFM of OA required
Like I said, it's not as simple as just summing your OA airflows if you are required to use
ASHRAE 62.1. The ventilation effectiveness in each scenario is different because you have
to use your minimum flow for Zone B.
Can I have a constant speed DOAS system serving 10 air handlers that have variable
frequency drives? Will the outdoor airflow rate remain the same throughout all operating
points of the air handler fan? I'm assuming it won't since the pressure in the mixing box will
change and I would need some sort of VFD on the DOAS unit. If I do need a VFD, what is
the sequence of operation and what controls the DOAS fan speed. Thanks in advance.
GMcD (Mechanical)
3 Nov 11 0:19
If your DOAS system is sized to provide the minimum ventilation air to satisfy ASHRAE 62,
then leave it at constant volume. The variable volume AHU's will just use less return air in
the mixing section and you'll still be delivering the minumum required ventilation air to the
spaces, as well as make-up air for constant exhaust systems (washrooms, general exhaust,
etc.). That's assuming the VAV AHU's are sized and varying the supply air flow for cooling
(or heating) demand to their spaces/zones during a normally occupied period.
SAK9 (Mechanical)
3 Nov 11
17:57
There are two ways to go about this:

1.Constant volume DOAS delivering constant volume to each AHU irrespective of what
speed they are running at.Obviously when the AHUs ramp down on the VSD,the mixing box
static pressure will drop resulting in less fresh air being drawn.You need to open the fresh
air air damper on the mixing box more to keep the air flow constant.One way of doing this
is to hold the differential pressure across the damper constant no matter what the static
pressure in the mixing box is.
2.A variable volume DOAS responding to change in fresh air requirement from each
AHU.The fresh air damper in each AHU will modulate in response to a CO2 monitor in each
of the zones.The DOAS AHU will have a duct static pressure sensor tuned for the maximum
air flow.Any DOAS flow reduction will cause the static pressure to rise and will slow the unit
down.
Option 2 is more complex and is required only if the occupant load is likely to vary
signicficantly ie lecture theatres,auditorium,restaurant etc
swoosh172 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Nov 11
18:58
These are pretty small air handlers, no more than 2,000 cfm each. I am not sure that the
outside air will drop much when the ahu speed ramps down, but I do have to submit for
LEED Silver and I want to make sure it is correct. What do you think about having a
pressure independent VAV box on the OA duct to each air handler?
cry22 (Mechanical)
5 Nov 11
12:29
Smoosh
You have to give all data when asking a question. This data of 2000 CFM max for AHU is
important in your problem and should have been stated.
second, you need to state amount of OA and total DOAS unit size for people to make a
sound judgment
third, you need to mention the LEED aspect and what part of LEED are you pursuing? are
you implementing a DCV control strategy? using CO2 sensors? if you do, you need means
to control the reduction of OA into the building.
From what you state, you system is no more than a FCU with DOAS, you just call them
AHU. we're talking about 10% OA? (200 CFM for each unit? total DOAS=2000 CFM, or 2500
CFM?) if so, then your system is fairly small, and both your DOAS and AHU have fans HP
are so small that VFD's do not make sense any way.
It appears that CV DOAS, CV AHU's with manual balancing is the way to go.
If you get tangled into that air flow measuremnt, DCV control etc, you'll be spending a
fortune for minimal gain. No way in hell you can have a pay back on such small systems.
I'd go CV all the way, AHU's and DOAS unit - as for VFD's for such small systems, it is as
they say in Brooklyn "Foggetaboutit"
SAK9 (Mechanical)
6 Nov 11
16:36
I fully second cry22 's views.

swoosh172 (Mechanical) (OP)
7 Nov 11 7:35
Thanks Cry and SAK. I ran the energy model and I was only getting a 2% savings with the
VFDs so it is not worth it. I was surprised to see that I was also breaking even on the
energy wheel tonnage savings vs what it costs to run the erw motor. The OA is only 1800
cfm as cry guessed, so I guess energy recovery is also not worth it.
cry22 (Mechanical)
7 Nov 11 8:08
Smoosh
There is no Silver Bullet in sustainability.
You have to throw a lot of darts at a prroject to save energy. They do have to make sense
though.
I'd say ERW total enthalpy wheel is worth looking at (again another data you did not
indicate in your problem statement - your Locality weather data) - the harsher the climate,
the more opportunities to save.
It is not just tonnage, it is also Boiler size (then again, are you in a heated climnate?)
I would pay attention to that ERW load, if the load comes down say from 55 to 50 ton for
example, then it may make sense because you'd be going from a larger RTU or air-cooled
chiller to a low end (verify actual KW of equipment) - from 60 to 50 ton, your 50-ton will be
rightly sized w/ERW, while your 60-ton will be oversized w/o ERW.
The following are some of the major things you should consider upfront when doing a
Sustainable design
1. ERW total Enthalpy wheels
2. Low-E Glass
3. Lighting - Min ASHRAE 90.1 1 W/SF or even better LED lighting
4. DCV using CO2 sensors for large occupancy spaces to provide diversity.
5. "Right-Sizing" of equipment, actually UNDER-Sizing is GOOD, especially for residential.
this can't be stressed enough, we've seen people provide a 20-ton AC unit for an elevator
machine room when a 5-ton will do. Check tose calcs.

6. Air-side econimizer when climate permits.
7. VFD's on Fans & pumps etc of 10 HP motor and larger.
8. Good control sequence of operation - TURN-OFF equipment when you can, nothing beats
OFF.
9. System choice for the right occupancy.
10. some rules of thumbs: using points 1 thru 4 above, you should get around 500SF/ton
for cooling and 18-20 BTUH/SF of heating in a moderate climate such as the US midatlantic.
Last but not least, watch out that sensible load going down so much that you have under
0.5 CFM/SF of cooling, you need to move some air, I like to see no less than 0.7 CFM/SF
(especially for VAV systems), then again watch that dehumidification problem resulting
from high SA temp. (58-59) when moving more air purposely.
You have to find a balance of things that make sense and apply them, that's why we are
hired as engineers, to find all the solutions for each specific problem.
Hi,
could any one explain , for a Constant volume system what is Cooling coil supply air
temperature reset provided normally.is the Reset Delta T is calculated based on the
maximum and the minimum cooling load or is there any thumb rule
Thanks and Regards
vignesh.
Drazen (Mechanical)
8 Feb 12
12:00
Knowing about such formal requirement, I do not know how it actually works in practice.
In theory, temperature reset should refer to zone with highest cooling load, raising supply
temperature as much as possible during part load, which should reduce reheat energy
needs for the whole system.
In my opinion that would make sense if SHR is constant in all load conditions, which, of
course, is not the case, and therefore such reset can directly reduce dehumidification
effectiveness, and the only mean to cope with that is to plot chart of part loads, make
graph of reset temperatures accordingly, and than apply it to control logic (similarly to
outside temperature dictated supply temperature reset in hydronic systems).
I did not hear about that in practice, however.
MechEngNCPE (Mechanical)
8 Feb 12
16:27
Say you have a lab with constant volume w/reheat. Normally the discharge temp would be
55 degrees and then reheated to maintain space temp setpoint. If humidity monitoring is in
place, you may increase the supply air discharge setpoint until the space rh raises above
setpoint (say 50%), then the chilled water control valve modulates or compressors stage
up to get the RH down below setpoint. It is a way to save energy throughout the year,
especially if you have a 100% OA system.
SAK9 (Mechanical)
10 Feb 12
23:22
The usual reset band is 13~17C.Reset may be done based on either return air
temperauture or outside air temperature or a combination of both.You need to be mindful
of internal humidity requirements and external humidity ranges before employing supply
air reset.It is not recommended for humid climate such as across asia or the middle east.
Drazen (Mechanical)
13 Feb 12
13:14
SAK9,
At first glance things look very simple if you take latent load out of analysis.
The big question is, however, what are you saving than. My understanding is that
temperature reset is done to save on reheat energy, but if you do not have controlled
dehumidification via cooling coil, that you do not have reheat at all.
Lower leaving air temperature will reduce load covered by space cooling and your savings
are coming to zero!
MechEngNCPE,
The example you mentioned is one that I could imagine, though it seems to be limited to
one zone systems. Otherwise, I am wandering how to decide on referent internal dry bulb
temperature, when each zone may have different latent load patterns. At design stage you
are already aware that your zones will not have the same relative humidity, but will rather
be within acceptable (as wide as possible) range, but when you begin playing with supply
air temperature things become complicated.
houseman20 (Mechanical)
13 Feb 12
16:57
Recommend that any constant volume system be reviewed for compliance with ASHRAE
90. especially section 6.5.2 Simultaneous Heating and Cooling Limitation. There are limits
on how much reheating is allowed. There are also exceptions to the rule. This is a
prescriptive section, you may need to document the path for energy code compliance.
SAK9 (Mechanical)
13 Feb 12
21:31
Drazen,
Apart from the reduction in reheat requirements,there is a saving due to compressor
having to do less work at higher evaporator pressures in a DX system.There is scope for
chilled water temperature to be reset up in CHW systems with a reduction in energy
consumption.
21 Sep 07 17:43
I am in the process of troubleshooting an O/A duct distributing air to four AHUs. The most
remote AHU is modulating the return air dampers to give a constant 900CFM of outside air.
Due to the return air damper modulating down the total air is low. I am getting a varing
consensus of opinion among my coworkers and the TAB on this, from bringing in a separate
O/A duct, to adding a fan in line for the specific unit, to adding a fan on the main
duct(about 2500 CFM total O/A demand)with backdraft dampers in the O/A duct near each
unit. I would like to solve this by adding an in-line O/A fan at the specific AHU with
backdraft dampers at the other units but I am not shure how to calculate the fan size or if
this will work at all.
BronYrAur (Mechanical)
21 Sep 07
18:01
Is the OA ductwork sized to handle the OA requirements of all AHU's. Sounds like they are
fighting each other for the air.

filippo56 (Mechanical) (OP)
21 Sep 07
19:37
No, I don't think they are fighting for air. This unit is the most remote, longest distance
from the Louver.
21 Sep 07
21:47
What is the actual problem that you need to solve? It is not clear in your original post.
I'll guess that the problem is that "the total air (supply?) is low (from the most remote
AHU)".
If that is it, I would guess that moving 900 cfm through the OA duct has used up most of
the available static pressure from the AHU's fan.
The simplest way to to solve this would be to simply increase the AHU fan speed, provided
that the motor has sufficient unused capacity.
The lowest cost (life cycle wise) would be a separate OA duct, sized for low pressure drop.
Adding a booster fan means you need to pay to run the fan forever. Adding dampers at the
other AHU's increases the pressure drop at each, making their fans costlier to operate.
filippo56 (Mechanical) (OP)
22 Sep 07
20:45
Agree. When the TAB opened the return air damper manually to 100% the total air
increased to near design. The O/A decreased below design. We do have some margin in the
motor to increase the fan RPM but this thing is already outside of the fan curve envelope.
The static pressure is below where the fan curve would have it at the lower CFM when I
replotted it. I think the re-ducting of the O/A is the only realistic, cost effective solution. We
have some restrictions on where the O/A louver can be placed to complecate things.
trashcanman (Mechanical)
24 Sep 07
5:18
Increasing the speed of the AHU will also directly increase the AHUs cfm. Will this be a
problem? Also HP increases as cube of speed.
Why not consider a separate O/A fan for each AHU? That fan could be interlocked with its
respective AHU. Yes, you will face operating expense of the O/A fan, but it will work.
quark (Mechanical)
24 Sep 07
5:45
I agree with MintJulep. The reduction in total flowrate is not due to the control of return
damper but because the outside air is consuming the fan static.
Check the fan total static when the return damper is fully open (as this gives you the
design flowrate). Disconnect the OA duct, control the return damper to get the required
flowrate of OA and again check the total static pressure of fan. If the difference in static
pressures is positive then design your duct as per the available static. If the difference is
negative, then select the fan for the new ducted OA system + the difference.
AbbyNormal (Mechanical)
26 Sep 07
18:12
It is always tough I think, when you have a VFD and you want to try and have return air
dampers close off and outside air dampers to open up, to try and keep the outside air
contant under lower airflows when the supply blower is ramped down.
Maybe get an inline fan with a pressure independent VAV box to contol the amount of
outside air you want.
ADAG (Mechanical) (OP)
25 Apr 07
10:50
I am working on the design of a Constant volume, DX a/c system (cooling only)for a

Government Office. For the cooling load calculation I am including a ventilation load of 15
CFM/person in occupied office areas. Now in this same building I also have a cafeteria
room, to be used only by the office staff (around 20 people). If I now again include a
ventilation load of 15 CFM/person for these same people when in the cafeteria, I will be
doubling the required ventilation air and introducing double the air I actually need (and
oversizing my equipment). If I dont, I will run short on the supply air for the cafeteria.
What is the criteria to follow? Perhaps the best would be to have an independent system
for the cafeteria, but what if this is not possible?
Another issue on ventilation: Considering the local construction standards I know I will be
having some infiltration, this however is hardly quantifiable. Should I reduce my system
ventilation requirements (i.e. 15CFM/person to 10 CFM person) to compensate for the
infiltration ventilation?
Thank you,
williamsGA (Mechanical)
25 Apr 07
11:37
You need follow the ASHREA 62 guidelines. It is no longer as simple as 15 cfm/person. You
will need to take into account the airflow percentage that is delivered to each space, and
what portion of that is OA. Since it is a constant volume system this is an easy calculation.
Also, ASHREA 62 now requires OA for space contaminates, this is a OA/sf number, and OA
occupants.
26 Jun 07 10:07
I am working on a renovation project, the building is built in 1984, I assume 1981 BOCA
mechanical code is used at that time. Does anyone know what is the outside air and
ventilation requirements for office and conference rooms in 1981 BOCA Mechanical code?
MarauderX (Mechanical)
26 Jun 07
12:24
I would imagine that you won't be able to design to the '81 code for current permits.
www.vanderweil.com
aphou (Mechanical) (OP)
26 Jun 07
14:34
The outside air requirements for building built in 1984 is 5 cfm/person and 8.33 cfm/person
in conference room. It is almost impossible to upgrade the outside air to the current code
requirements.
The local building code authority agree us to follow the ventilation code based on the year
the building was built. It make sense, because if one floor is being renovated in a high rise
building, it is unfair to ask the tenant or owner to upgrade the oa requirements for the
entire building.
MarauderX (Mechanical)
26 Jun 07
15:02
It may make sense, but it doesn't make for a good building. I wouldn't want to live or work
in the jurisdiction you are under, as every building would comply only with the year it was
built.
Almost impossible means that it can be done. I should hope that you make the best
engineering decision when designing those office and conference spaces.
www.vanderweil.com
TADiep (Mechanical)
27 Jun 07
17:41
"It may make sense, but it doesn't make for a good building. I wouldn't want to live or work
in the jurisdiction you are under, as every building would comply only with the year it was
built.
Almost impossible means that it can be done. I should hope that you make the best
engineering decision when designing those office and conference spaces. "
The best engineeing decision is to bring the building up to code. That is a no-brainer.
However, both you and I know that doings thing the proper engineering way equals money.
In this case, alot of money. The house system is not set-up for the additional outside air
needed to bring the space up to code. Also, since this is located in a high rise...the units
are most likely central units that serve multiple floors.
As engineers, we should inform the building owner of the situation and that we recommend
they upgrade the units to allow for the current OSA requirement. If they say, "we do not
have the money and the local jurisdiction approves of gradfathering in the previous code."
At least you performed your due diligence. And thats all we can do.
---A green thought..."We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children." (unknown)
28 Jun 07
9:21
If the Owner doesn't want to spend any money on the new space, he surely doesn't need
an Engineer.
Engineers are responsible for best practice and 5 cfm/person in a conference room is not
best practice.
mike7941 (Mechanical)
28 Jun 07
13:06
What about xtra filtration of the return air and UV or BiPolar Ionization treatment of the
supply airstream?
According to their salesmen it can bring the outside air requirements back down to the 5
cfm level. They wouldn't lie to us, would they?
Honestly I haven't tried it. But Its something I'd think about, if forced into a corner.
Mike
NCDesign (Mechanical)
28 Jun 07
18:37
mike7641 & the OP ASHRAE 62.1-2004 section 6.3 allows for an Indoor Air Quality
approach, so there is validity to what the salesmen is trying to sell. But, there are several
issues.
One is if your jurisdiction will go for it. A lot of codes don't reference 62.1 as a viable way to
provide outside air per code. In the case of the International Mechanical Code and several
state's derivatives, they have taken Section 6.2, Ventilation Rate Procedure, from 62.11999 (I think thats the right year) and made it part of the code. Not by reference but by
directly placing that section in the code. This stinks because in my opinion they are
requiring way to much outside air and don't give you very much flexibility.
The second is actually being able to meet that approach if the jurisdiction allows it. It takes
a lot more work to approach it from that direction. You have to identify and quantify
contaminants and then prove that the system you are providing will take care of all those.
Even after you have dotted all your i's and crossed all your t's you are still left hanging by
section 6.3.1.3 which says:
Quote (6.3.1.3):
The criteria to achieve the design level of acceptability shall be specified in terms of the percentage
of building occupants and/or visitors expressing satisfaction with perceived indoor air quality
That perception part is enough to scare most people away even if they can get it through
the AHJ. Nothing like having to go back and redo your design because the client and/or AHJ
just doesn't think the air is clean enough. In my opinion your safety net just isn't there like
it is if you follow the ventilation rate procedure.
atlas06 (Mechanical)
2 Jul 07 7:42
Dynamic Air filters claims the same air quality approach to reduce outside air quatities.
The latest IMC 2006 403.2 Exception allows an "engineered ventilation system" outside of
rates stated in section 403.3. I believe this revision to the code is there to allow the
engineer to follow ASHRAE 62.1 instead of the more stringent IMC rates.
AbbyNormal (Mechanical)
3 Jul 07 11:31
A climate where you can run a constant positive or negative it is no problem. You can
neglect infiltration load and just worry about ventilation.
NASA can recycle urine into potable water, I would rather drink the fresh stuff myself.
Take the "V" out of HVAC and you are left with a HAC(k) job.
RossABQ (Mechanical)
5 Jul 07 21:42
There is likely to be an initial problem with that low of a ventilation rate, if the project
includes re-painting and new carpets (seems likely). It will take weeks to get rid of the offgassing products. An approach may be to specify that only carpet and paints with low
volatiles be used, and have the contractor develop and use an IAQ plan (similar to those in
Green Building guidelines). Once the renovated areas have "aged", the occupants will just
have their own BO and farts to deal with...
18 Apr 03 10:00
I'm designing an air conditioning system for 100% outside air. The area is a small lab room
approximately 950 ft3. My heating loads are 6600 Btuh sensible and 1500 Btuh latent. I
trying to design the cfm required. I'm working in a dry climate so I've neglected the latent.
Some people suggest that I should:

6600/(1.08*(97-55)) where 97 is the outside air requirements and 55 is the leaving
temperature off the coil. This delivers about 152 cfm. The reason I've been given is
because that temperature of the air I want to deliver and am making up for the 6600 heat
gain. This gives me about 10 Air Changes/Hour
Other people suggest that I should use:
6600/(1.08*(75-55)) where 75 is the temperature inside the room. This delivers about 305
cfm. I will size the coil from this formula: 1.08*(97-55)*305. I have also been told if I use
this method that I will freeze up the coil because the air flow is too great.
Which method is right? Can I buy this system as a packaged unit? Also where can I find a
psychometric chart for 4500 feet elevation?
Thanks
FCIBSE (Mechanical)
18 Apr 03
14:55
Have you consider Ventilation Displacement system yet?

ChipFuller (Mechanical) (OP)
18 Apr 03
22:09
What's a ventilation desplacement system?

chicopee (Mechanical)
19 Apr 03
21:30
your reasoning escapes me. Is the sensible heat of 6600 btuh generated by lab equipment,
lighting and the 10 or less air changes and heat transfer thru walls, ceiling and floor?
20 Apr 03
0:31
Chip Here's how I see this. I wouldn't go by either option you've shown. I would analyze this
from load to source, and there is a latent gain at the load. I would therefore use:
Q=4.5*cfm*dH in lieu of Q=1.08*cfm*dT
Total space load is latent + sensible, which is 8,100 BTU/hr. To obtain cooling airflow
needed, use the Q=4.5*cfm*dH equation, which solves for total load (sensible and latent)
based on enthalpy. With a saturated 55F supply air stream, and to maintain the 75F
space temperature at 50% relative humidity, the load (room) would require 364 cfm.
364 cfm is the volumetric flow rate that the central AHU would need to cool from 97F to
55F. Using Q=1.08*cfm*dT, as you note that this is a dry area, the AHU coil would need to
be sized for this reduction in temperature at this flow. This equates to an AHU cooling
capacity of 16,500 BTU/hr.
Note that I'm skeptical of the lack of need for the AHU to remove moisture because this is a
"dry climate." Dry is a relative term. 97F and 24.6% humidity would produce saturated
55F air. If the humidity were higher than 24.6%, the coil would also need to remove
moisture.
I'm open to rebuttal on this - haven't gone back to thermo/HVAC books, but this way seems
to make sense to me.

As a side note, be careful of sizing DX units. The load conditions stated will be rare so you
need a unit that will perform well at partial load.
Best of luck. -CB
quark (Mechanical)
20 Apr 03
23:59
I vote for CB. However if you want to go your way you should consider 75 to 55 deg.F
because at no time you want to increase the room temperature above 75 deg.F. If you
consider a TD of 95 to 55 for a load of 6600 Btu/Hr then when this heat load adds up from
the room the leaving temperature will be higher than 75 deg.F.
You better follow CB's comments.
anandHVAC (Mechanical)
25 Apr 03
3:31
I am sorry, Perhaps not agree with all above explanation.

My answer to CHIPFULLER's question is as follows.
I will start with basics. If you refer to carrier handbook or any other engineering book on
Air-conditioning. You will find that the grand total heat, in your case it is 8100btu/hr i.e
0.675 tons, is used to calculate the tonnage requirement.This means that your coil should
be capable to give you an output of 0.675. Now the question is how much air is needed to
achieve this.This can not be decided with
above two equations.You will have to do the iterations.First assume some fresh air i.e 1
airchange/hr and calculate the dehumidified air quantity requied.Repeat this procedure till
you balances your fresh air with dehumidified air.This will give you the quantity of air
required to maintain the desired inside conditions.
Answer to your second question regarding pyschometric chart for different elevation.U will
note that all the standard psychometric charts are designed at atmospheric pressure of
760mm of Hg.For pressure other than 760mm of Hg, you will have to physically draw it.
Procedure on how to draw psychometric chart is available in any air conditioning book. U
can refer to that.
I hope all above explanation clarified all your queries. In case of any query pls. let me
know.
25 Apr 03
13:50
Anand, could you clarify the iteration? What do you get for an answer? Thanks, -CB
briand2 (Mechanical)
25 Apr 03
15:55
ChasBean1's response of 20th April 2003 is absolutely perfect. I've sized countless air
conditioning systems over the years, and I've never had to carry out some "iteration" to
get the cooling requirement.
AnandHVAC: I too would be really interested to see why an iterative process should be
necessary on this occasion (I might be experienced, but I never miss the opportunity to
learn!!).
Regards,
Brian
coolingunit (Automotive)
26 Apr 03
6:04
anandHVAC: Your explanation is excellent. I would like to know the iterative procedure of
calculating the fresh air requirement.
28 Apr 03
1:30
"Iteration" means trial and error method.

During heatload calculation you will have to assume some fresh air quantity to calculte
dehudified CFM requirement.
You will have to reiterate this procedure by varying fresh air quantity till it balances with
dehumidified CFM.
Unless this both quantity matches you will not satisfy the condition of 100% fresh air.
It is imposible for me to explain the method of calculation via mail. However, u can refer to
carrier handbook for
more information.
In case of any queries/cmments do let me know. I will try my best to address it.
cbiber (Mechanical)
28 Apr 03
12:48
I have found several psychrometric charts online for elevations other than sea level. For
example Google found this one for me using the search terms "psychrometric chart
altitude":
http://www.heatcraftheattransfer.com/pdfs/Normal5000.PDF
It's for 5000 feet, not 4500, but it's close enough to get you started.
Biber Thermal Design
www.biberthermal.com
quark (Mechanical)
29 Apr 03
0:54
Dr. Zekyl says, it is always better if you have time to practically design a system.
(supplying air quantity to remove heat load and moisture load and incrementing it to reach
balance)
Mr. Hyde says, well if you want to increase complexity of a simple solution go ahead. None
of carrier's people nor any other engineer objects you.The fundamental is to check the
total enthalpy of fresh air and the conditions you wanted at the room. Basically theair
exiting the room should have same properties of required condition otherwise room
conditions cannot be maintained. Now by the simple calculation given by CB and used
widely everywhere, calculate the cfm. This is enough cfm that will carry heat and moisture
out of the room.
This is more simpler than recirculation system because you need not further remove the
moisture from the exiting air stream. Just you are throwing it away. Still, if you love math
iterations, higher order differential equations and probability will always help you. Best of
Luck.
(Bah! am I being too dramatic?)
29 Apr 03
12:35
This could be a good exercise because we might be talking apples and apples here. Anand,
did the reiterative process produce a result?

energy7 (Mechanical)
10 May 03
18:08
Lets keep it simple, your application is not rocket science

1st, your CFM required is dictated by your total sensible load and the temp you want to
maintain in the room at the supplly air temp you plan to provide.
it is simply found as
Rm CFM = Room BTHU QS / 1.08 ( Trm - Tsa )
2nd, beause you specify 100% OSA ( I will not ask why 100% ),
your coils will never see this load.
Coil Capacity will need to be based on the air flow design above
at ( OSA EAT db / wb - SAT - (LAT) db/wb )
good luck
12 May 03
13:18
The cooling coil will need to cool 100%OA to the condition such that when this coil leaving
air is discharged into the room. it will pick up heat and moisture & air is then exhausted.
The condition of the air exhausted typically matches the room inside conditions. If the
cooling coil cools the air to 50 deg F & the room design condition is 72 def F then the air
quantity required Rm Load in BTU per hr/(1.1 x (72-50)). Now you must also satisfy the
latent loads. The Coil must dehumidify the same quantity of air to the humidity such that
when discharged into the room it will absorb the latent load & it's RH will be within the
design range. You may have to reheat to maintain the required space humidity.
13 May 03
12:29
Labs typically require 100% outdoor air. Make sure you have enough for exhaust hood
makeup. Simplest control is constant volume reheat. You can also have (2) position occupied/unoccupied or variable volume, all with reheat. Usually humidity is cirtical so
humidification is also required. Chilled water system is best. If DX you will find out that
when you size the it for the load w/ 100% OA, the unit CFM (typically 350 CFM/ton) would
be more than you need to do the room sensible load.What I have done is recirculate back
some of the air. This unit should only serve a lab not a group of labs to avoid cross
contamination. Part of the fan discharge is ducted direct back to the return. You have to
recalculate & do trial & error of the coil entering air condition (mix of OA & recirculated air
at coil discharge condition plus fan heat. The AC unit should have hot gas controls. A
humidistat in addition to a thermostat should be used to bring on cooling. Final space
temperature should be controlled by the reheat coil.
greenaire (Mechanical)
2 Jun 03 4:44
Could you see "the dedicated units" from the news letter of www.trane.com?
2 Jun 03
21:46
No I couldn't. Link is to trane.com main page. Checked under "News" and didn't see
"dedicated units." Tried a search for "dedicated units" and no luck. Could you be more
specific?
tmprider (Mechanical)
3 Jun 03 9:16
Try using an ERV sized for the 100% fresh air load. Locate it in the ceiling space of the lab
for ease of maintenance and cleaning. This will most likley decrease the size of the unit
that you go with, and will allow you to take advantage of "free cooling". Overall, your
energy consumption will be less due to the lower delta T at your coils.
DH
VSSriram (Mechanical)
12 Jul 03
13:34
This seems to be an interesting heat load which I used to do manually at the start of my
career. 100% outside air application cooling load calculations are normally done by
iteration.
First assume a particular outside air quantity and do the load calculations, find out what
the dehumidifed air quantity is. If it matches the assumed outside air quantity, then the
initial assumption is right. Otherwise, do another load calculation absed on the
dehumidified air quantity obtained and keep doing this (iteration !!!) till you get the same
figure.
Alternatively, if you have a software like E20-II of Carrier, you can just input all the relevant
data and put 100% outside air and the program gives an output which will be 100%
outside air.
12 Jul 03
22:23
Hi
Here is web address for mentioned article and complete article name. If you still can not
get it, give my your email address. Then send it to u by email. My email:
naymo@greenaire.com.sg
"http://www.trane.com/commercial/library/archived_newsletters.asp";
Design tips for effective, efficient dedicated ventilation systems by Dennis Stanke, 2001,
volume 30-3. PDF or HTML
genieconseil (Mechanical) (OP)
10 Feb 06
21:46
I'm a small mech/elect consulting firm me being the only engineer I specialize in building
engineering in both disciplines and recognized by the order of engineers of Quebec. I've
been practicing since 1987 and in all that time i have never had to do any energy analysis
where the degree days or the bin method had to be used. My situation is the following, my
client has a commercial building in Montreal 100,000 sq. ft. and is devided in 2 locals.
one tenant is using 2 gaz fired fresh air units of 25,000 cfm (gas fired 2,500,000 btu/hr) &
16,000 cfm (gas fired 2,000,000 btu/hr)he only has one main meter and concequently one
invoice for the whole building. he has asked me to evaluate precisely the percentage of
natural gaz consumed for the year for those two unit only so he can invoice the tenant
fairly. I'm a little embarassed to ask for help, I realise that the bin method would be the
appropiate method to use considering the fact that the units only provide fresh air 10 hrs a
day and requires heating from october to mid may. I have never used this method and cant
seem to find any good examples for me to follow. Can someone help me direct me with my
problem?
Thank you in advance

Genieconseil
vzeos (Mechanical)
11 Feb 06
8:28
genieconseil,
This publication gives some bin calculation examples in the appendix.
http://www.energy.rochester.edu/efficiency/optimal_boiler_size.pdf#search='bin
%20method%20and%20heating'
11 Feb 06
12:23
You will need to use actual temperature data for the period of time in question. Published
BIN data is "average" over some arbitrarilly long past time.
I doubt that invoicing a tennant based on calculation is legal.
zdas04 (Mechanical)
11 Feb 06
13:41
Any method that is consistent with the contract is "legal". As far as that goes, it would be
legal to charge each of them the full gas bill if the contract will allow it.
It sounds like the landlord is trying to bend over backwards to be fair. Since no method is
going to be "accurate" (except to install another meter which is an unreasonable expense),
I would opt for simple. What I'd propose is an allocation based on heated area times cfm.
Say the one with the larger unit has 60% of the heated space then I'd allocate him:
(60,000ft*2500 cfm)/(60000ft*2500cfm+40000ft*1600cfm)=70%
This isn't "right", but it will come as close as a much more complex calculation with
historical averages. You could do the same thing with heat capacity, but you'd get to
around the same number (65% instead of 70%). At today's industrial gas prices you are
talking about splitting about $22.50 US/day (assuming $15/MMBTU, 8 hours/day run time)-getting it "wrong" is not a huge deal and most tenants will accept a logical, consistent, and
hopefully fair allocation. You can easily spend more in billable hours than this could ever be
worth.
David
11 Feb 06
20:15
Right, but if you were the tennant would you have signed a lease with a term along the
lines of:
The landlord will invoice the tennant for gas usage based on an unknown method of
calculation and performed by someone not familiar with performing energy calculations.
zdas04 (Mechanical)
12 Feb 06
8:08
Cute, but a good point. The contract has some language about utilities. That is the only
reasonable place to start. My point is that you should use the simplest reasonable
allocation method consistent with contract language. I've successfully used "simplistic"
allocation routines on projects that were a lot more money than we're talking about here,
and I was successful because they were perceived by the parties as fair enough.
The "bin" calculation is a collection of averages of averages of standard conditions

(whatever they might be) that is complex enough to drive an experienced engineer to start
this thread. It is no more "accurate" than allocating based on heated area or number of
employees, just harder.
David
vzeos (Mechanical)
12 Feb 06
8:18
MintJulep, zdas04:
I think you are both right. Invoicing your tenants for gas supplied by the utility may be
considered an infringement on the utilitys franchise rights. If you want your tenants to pay
for their energy consumption, you would have the utility meter each tenant separately
such that the tenant becomes a customer of the utility. Landlords usually get around this
by including in the monthly rent an amount that would cover the average monthly utility
expense. It is then appropriate to estimate the energy usage of each rental unit and base
the rental rate accordingly.
davefitz (Mechanical)
12 Feb 06
16:08
Being that it is a commercial building, there is a good chance that one or both tenants
have amny operatiing periods with the doors open or high fresha air input, which would
gorssly skew the accuracy of a calcualtion that assumes the doors and vents are closed.
For the size heaters involved, why not install 2 custody meters? Or retrofit the heaters with
gas cosnumption meters that are recognized by the provincial authority?
13 Feb 06
10:09
Thanks, I'm glad and greatfull to see such response to my problem. But first of all to clear
things the 2 air make up units are for the same tenant (the larger area). If you read my
question carefully you will see that it is stated as such. I realise that many factors are
implicated in the solution(eff of heater, modulation of burner proportional to the demand,
skedual, inside temp requirements, scheduals, and I leave alot more factors out that
influences the calc) but since officially the bin method is recognized and breafly described
in ASHRAE then science becomes the lead hand and maybe some logic in court. RGASENG
thanks for the link to an example it is usefull but some values calculated are not clearly
identified. I'm bloked in my calc. Do you have more resourses.
Thanks a lot for your response
It si very appreciated
Genieconseil
Philrock (Mechanical)
13 Feb 06
13:20
Commercial heating and cooling loads are typically difficult to predict accurately. If your
client truly wants to be fair to the tenants, he must meter their consumption separately.
Even if there is an administrative problem with the utility company doing this, there should
be commercially available meters which could be installed downstream of the utility
meters, which could be used to determine tenant usage. If you have faith in the accuracy
of both the utility meters and the downstream meters, you could get away with metering
only one of the tenants separately, and assume the other tenant is using the balance of
the energy.
13 Feb 06
18:17
I totally agree with measuring seperately and that was my first comment to my client but it
is not the case at the moment and before he can accurately differentiate he will have to
measure for a year, this is obvious. But he needs to get a good approximation now and
only two methods exist which are the degree days method and the bin method. My
problem is that I dont have good examples of how to use them.
Forget metering for now I need to calculate.
thanks
Genieconseil
vzeos (Mechanical)
14 Feb 06
7:32
genieconseil,
Check out Appendix B: ENERGY CONSUMPTION AND COST ANALYSIS in the attached
link.
http://interscope2.doa.state.nc.us/Guidelines/lcca/LCCA%20Manual.doc
michaelr749 (Mechanical)
3 Mar 06 4:41
Genieconseil,
Bin method is based on temperature groups and typically includes all hours annually of
data for a given city. You need to break out the temperature bins based on the operating
hours. Bin Maker (type "Bin Maker Pro" into Google) provides this capability. Next thing how
are the units controlled? Are they 100% OA? Are they constant volume? What is the
discharge air temperature setpoint during heating? Is there a HD reset sequence? All of
these factors will impact how you perform your calculations.
You can calculate sensible energy using the following equation 1.08 * CFM * (Temp IN Temp OUT). CFM, of course, is the air flow through the unit. Temp IN is the temperature of
the air before the heating coil and temperature OUT is the temperature of the air after the
coil. You can see now how knowing the operating conditions of you system. If your unit is
100% OA and constant volume with a discharge temperature setpoint of say 80F, then the
calc is easy. You get your bin table setup from Bin Maker and set up a calculation in Excel
as follows:
1.08 * 25,000 * (80F - bin temp)
1.08 * 16,000 * (80F - bin temp)
Then pull down the calc through the range of temperatures during Outside Air conditions
where heating is being provided. The equation will provide you with values in Btu/hr. You
will then need to multiply these values in each bin by the hours in each bin to get Btus and
then convert into appropriate heating energy units. Also, don't forget the efficiency of the
heating system. The calcs you will have performed is the energy to heat the air. How much
NG is required to heat that air. You will require approximately 25% more NG, assuming 80%
efficiency.
Now, if you have minimum OA and are mixing with return air you will need to modify your
calcs. Also, if it is a VAV system... another level of complexity.
Another thing to look at is utility bills. If these units are the only source of heating other
than domestic heating look at a couple of years of gas data. Should look like a nice bell
shaped curve if you graph it by month with a peak in the Winter and minimum use in the
Summer. Take the average of the cooling months (assuming that no heating is performed
during the cooling months) and multiply by twelve. This should be a good estimate of the
domestic hot water load. If the only remaining load is heating then subtract the calculated
domestic heating load from the total utility (keep your units straight) and that will give you
your heating load. If the two units are the only other sources of NG use and the units are
controlled in the same manner, then just provide a proportionality constant for each unit
61% and 39%. This will provide for a quick and dirty calc and/or a sanity check against
your bin calcs.
Good Luck,
Michael Rosenberg
3 Jun 05 9:06
Hi and greetings to all of You.
As e new one I have a serious problem:
1. I have 2 systems to compare: The one is 100% fresh air (input), with build in coil
recovery energy loop on exit side. The second is a system with 20% of fresh air with no
energy recovery device on it.
How to make a decision which one is a better (this HVAC system are two different solutions
for our pharmaceutical factory with class 100.000).
I've searched thru this forum, and find something, but as a new, i did not understand your
units (american vs euro), and the way you calculate the difference between this systems.
The only thing I have to do is to calculate (formulas and suggestions)energy needed for
heating (cooling) input air, to make a constant temperature of app. 22 degrees
centigrades, and RH of 50%.
Maximum summer and winter temperatures are -20 and +40 degrees centigrades.
Also I've DL PSYCHROMETRIC ANALYZER, and tried to calculate it, but it do not include the
energy of energy loop.
I have to mention that this is only for this time and no need for further comparement than
this one.
Any help is a very big help to me.
Thanx in advance.
sethuME (Mechanical)
3 Jun 05
11:26
hi
i dont think that 100% fresh air is needed for the class 100000 area.because going for
100% will increase your cooling load.
ChrisConley (Mechanical)
3 Jun 05
13:14
Regardless of how you deliver outside air, the system will require the same amount of
energy to cool and heat the air. The only way to decrease this energy is to use heat
recovery.
If your space requires 1000 cfm (cubic feet per minute) of outdoor air then it will take
97,200 Btu/hr to heat that air from -20 to 70 F. If you mix 1000 cfm of OA with 9000 cfm of
return air, it will still take 108,000 Btu/hr of additional energy to heat the air back to 70 F.
Which system is better? Tell us more about what you are trying to do, use whatever units
you feel comfortable with; we can convert. How much air or air changes are you trying to
do. Are you heating or cooling with the air, or is this just for ventilation.
HVAC68 (Mechanical)
4 Jun 05 0:07
Why are you trying to use a 100% fresh air and then using a heat recovery system ? Is
100% fresh air a process requirement ?
As ChrisConley has said, units are not a problem - we can convert.
HVAC68
friartuck (Mechanical)
5 Jun 05 8:16
The amount of fresh air will depend on the occupancy and the process.
generally you can recirc a lot of the air to reduce the energy costs. This is much more
effective/efficient than having a heat recovery loop and 100% fresh air.
On a lot of clean room projects we have seen, the fresh air is only about 10% to 15%.
I'm not sure how ChrisConley works out that the fresh air component does not affect the
energy use. If you recirc 100%, then the load is simply the heat gain from the space. If you
bring fresh air in, you have to add this component, which could be far greater than the
room load. (hence recirc air is a good method of reducing the overall load)
Friar Tuck of Sherwood

HEC (Mechanical)
5 Jun 05
19:37
Another thing to consider in this is filter loadings. Although only trying to maintain Class
100,000 standard, filtration of return air may be cleaner, than filtration of outside air. Of
course this depands upon the process in the room. Dusty processes wouold be better with
once through.
Energy usage will be a large part of the design choice, however also consider other aspects
of the operation such as filters, replacement or cleaning, overall facility air flow
requirements and pressure gradients, etc, etc.
Regards
Hutton4eng@picknowl.com.au
Mark Hutton
jakaodrz (Industrial) (OP)
6 Jun 05 1:50
First at all. Thax for everyone for a quick answer.

Second:
1.Chris Conley: I don't think that it is the same coling/heating energy that we are using for
the both systems.Why? Because I think energy needed for 100% fresh air is not the same
as the one for 20%.
2.OK, let's say ( TO ALL):
I need 100 metercubic/minute for all rooms.
Temperature for rooms is 25 degrees C, with 50% RH.
a. The 100% fresh air system: I need a load of 100 metercubic/minute for all rooms. What
is needed energy (in kW) to make needed air, if we suppose that outdoor air is with -15
degrees C, thru winter ? And needed energy in summer, with outdoor air of +36 degrees
C ? Also a use of coil type of energy recover is included in a system of exsaust air from the
factory.
b. The system with 20% income and 80% recirculating air. The same calculations are valid
(100 mcc/minute for rooms, -15C in winter and +36C in summer).
I need just fact (formulas) how can we calculate it but fast.
Just have to mention that this is a need for deciding what type of system to use in our new
pharmaceutical factory, and the first criteria is economic side of energy used for both
systems, and the second the maintenance of the system. The factory is class 100000.
Also, results using Psychrom program from Mcquay shows me that needed energy isn't
same. But this is just for a drybulb type. With energy recover I do not know the results.
Greetings.
6 Jun 05
21:24
Friartuck,
I didn't say that the fresh air component didn't make a difference. What I said was that
regardless on how you deliver 1000 cfm you have to heat/cool it the same amount.
If we are moving air to provide a level of filtration, or course it will be less expensive to
provide 20% outdoor air.
I'm comparing a DOAS (Dedicated Outdoor Air System) with heat recovery to a recirc
system with the same fresh air requirements.
quark (Mechanical)
7 Jun 05 2:08
The best heat recovery systems operate at an efficiency of 90%. So, you have to cough up
10% more energy cost.
Further, for room pressurization and fresh air requirement, you have to bleed off required
quantity from rooms either if you go with recirculatory system or fresh air system. For a
conservative comparision you have to deduct this energy component also(i.e
approximately 10% volume rate of air is not available for energy recovery).
Regards,
7 Jun 05 2:12
TO: ChrisConley
Let's do this problem together:
as you know, 2 system are in valuation.
The problem why I'm asking a formula (a simple one), to calculate input energy is that
"somebody" is telling me that using 100% fresh air is cheaper than using 20-80%
combination.
The 100% system have in
a)input side:intake section, filter F8, Run around system recovery (heating) with eff. of
30.4%, Centrifugal fan belt driven, diffusor, filter H13 and sound attenuator.
b)output side: sound attenuator, filter F7, run around system recovery (cooling), and outlet
section with centrifugal fan belt driven.
I was told, that, if I'm using this type of HVAC solution, with combination of cooling plant
with air compressors ventilation (dry){Correct me about my explanation of cooling plant},
my energy savings will be big, according to GMP requirements we are looking for. The
controlled values are temperature, humidity and pressure. According to T, and RH of the
output, also including outside conditions, the system needs (do not needs) some additional
air preparations of intake air. The out take air is not needed any more, but for colleting of
waste energy.
The point is, comparing to recirc system, where additional preparation of out take air is a
must (filtration, dehumidification, heating, cooling), the control points are much more then
the other, I will save money in start and the payback is much shorter. Lower energy costs ?
In a future there is a chance to upgrade do class 10000 with only adding terminal HEPA
filters and nothing more?
To help You, the conditions of the placement of the plant is on around 423 m (1391 ft, with
approximate 65% of sunny days, and temperature variations from -20 to +40 C.
Thanx,
I'm just confused.
quark (Mechanical)
7 Jun 05 2:18
Didn't get what you mean by cooling plant with air compressor ventilation. Nevertheless,
'somebody' is playing wrong.
7 Jun 05 2:32
To: Quark
Ok, I know that the best heat recovery systems work at 90% eff., but the eff. of included
recovery system is around 30% (technical factory written info).
It's filled with ethylen, with med.flow of 3.72 l/s, medium in 14.46C, med.out -1.42C. Air in
-10C, air out 0.34C (this is for heating side), with 111 Pa pressure drop. capacity 233.28
kW. Medium press drop 45.34 kPa.
The cooling side is: air in 35C, 40% Hum., out 16.01 with 88% hum, air pressure drop 156
Pa, capacity 656 kW SHR. Medium ethylen, flow 33.298 l/s, med.in 5C, med.out 10C,
medium press drop 32.79 kPa.
QUOTED:
"Further, for room pressurization and fresh air requirement, you have to bleed off required
quantity from rooms either if you go with recirculatory system or fresh air system. For a
conservative comparision you have to deduct this energy component also(i.e
approximately 10% volume rate of air is not available for energy recovery)."
I do not understand well this: You mean that the quantity of air taken from rooms in both
situations is the same, but additional processing of recirc air is a must in system 20-80%.
It is OK, I know that, but still the question is : how much energy will be used in both
situations expressed in kW (let's say for 10000 m3/h) in both ways: with 100% fresh air,
and with 20-80% recirc air system?
Thanx.
quark (Mechanical)
7 Jun 05 3:05
I will try to simplify the things.

First, for room pressurization, say, you may require 10% of air flowrate. So this will be
directly exhausted from the rooms and you won't get it back in the AHUs. This is
compensated by fresh air intake in the second cycle.
When we consider 100% fresh air system, you will have only 90% appearing at the heat
recovery unit. Considering 30% efficiency of the heat recovery system, you need not cool
or heat 30% of 90% of total air flow(or 27% of total air flow).
When you use a recirculatory system with 10% fresh air, you should cool/heat 10% volume
rate from ambient conditions to coil ADP and 90% from room condition to ADP.
With a heat recovery unit, it is (100-27)= 73% volume rate from ambient condition to coil
ADP. So, compare 63%(i.e73%-10%) flowrate with ambient condition to ADP vs 90%
flowrate with room condition to coil ADP.
Regards,
7 Jun 05 3:14
TO: qUARK
Cooling plant (Cold water 5/10C) from Carrier-France type 30GX 082-358 or 30HXC 080375.
Air cooled liquid chiller capacity 2x1000kW.
The coorect name is: Screw compressor water-cooled Liquid Chillers and air-cooled liquid
chillers.
This is what a meant of cooling plant.
greets
7 Jun 05 3:42
To: Quark
Ok, I'll quote your message and do it step by step:
"First, for room pressurization, say, you may require 10% of air flowrate. So this will be
directly exhausted from the rooms and you won't get it back in the AHUs. This is
compensated by fresh air intake in the second cycle."
First: This is for recirculating system or it is for both systems?
Let's say: 1000m3/h - 10% = 900 m3/h, right ?
"When we consider 100% fresh air system, you will have only 90% appearing at the heat
recovery unit. Considering 30% efficiency of the heat recovery system, you need not cool
or heat 30% of 90% of total air flow(or 27% of total air flow). "
Ok, if we suppose that above is corect and for both systems:

900 m3/h - 30% = 270 m3/h of total input flow to heat with recovery unit, right ? The other
730 (or 630) m3/h have to be heated with heating-cooling unit, ok ?
270 m3/h - recovery unit
730(630) m3/h - heating cooling unit
"When you use a recirculatory system with 10% fresh air, you should cool/heat 10%
volume rate from ambient conditions to coil ADP and 90% from room condition to ADP."
In this case I need 100 m3/h to heat from outdoor air, and another 900 m3/h to heat-cold
from room air ? What is ADP ?
"With a heat recovery unit, it is (100-27)= 73% volume rate from ambient condition to coil
ADP. So, compare 63%(i.e73%-10%) flowrate with ambient condition to ADP vs 90%
flowrate with room condition to coil ADP."
I'm stuck here at the last point :) Help.
You mean:
- 270 m3/h heated with recovery coil and 730 m3/h heated with heater in hvac, and for
secure reason it is lowered to 63% of outdoor air?
You mean to compare 63% outdoor air to take heated and 90% of recirculated air to take
heated ?
If I misunderstood correct me.
Greets,
7 Jun 05 4:03
I'm stuck. Can somebody just say: You'll need this and this formula, or this program (free if
possible :) ), and no fear. Job is done in a minute.
greets
7 Jun 05 5:08
Or just using informations above for my problem (2-3 messages above this), and help me
for right solutions.
The "catch" is in the price of both systems, which one to buy, and in my opinion is that in
the system with 100% fresh air, must be something that I'm missing, which influence of the
lower costs of whole HVAC solution.
That's why I'm asking for help, to do a fast calc of energy used in both system, for same
quantity of air, for cooling and for heating. In fact, this became so confusing, that I do not
know where to start and where to end. I've tried lot of programs (freeware,
shareware,demo but no use) to find out the right one, where I can enter needed air in
m3/h, to choose one, then the other system, and to read out and compare the given results
(usage of energy in kW, for cooling and for heating).
So, if somebody have this type of program (it is doesn't matter whenever I know it or not),
let just enter needed info which can be find in messages above, and give me a simple
answer: In 1st system you'll need ...kW of energy for heating and cooling, and in 2nd
system you'll need ...kW of energy. I'm not asking nothing more and nothing less.
Just to mention that this is my first contact with HVAC problem, solutions (maybe
constructions) and simply I can't manage as good as you can here, experiensed engineers.
I hope You'll understand in what kind of trouble I am :)

Greets,
quark (Mechanical)
7 Jun 05 5:12
Say, you have 1000cmh requirement.

With fresh air
First cool 1000cmh from ambient condition to coil condition(or Apparatus Dew Point). 10%
is wasted in both cases, i.e 100cmh. So 900 cmh is present for recovery. Out of this you
can avail 30% of heat, which is about 270cmh. This is as if you need not condition this
much flowrate from ambient to coil condition. So what you have to treat is 1000-270 =
730cmh. - (1)
With recirculation
100cmh air is at ambient condition and 900cmh is at room condition. So you have to cool
100cmh from ambient condition to coil condition and 900cmh from room condition to coil
condition - (2)
For your comparison 100cmh fresh air treatment is common. So deduct this from both
options.
So, the fresh air option becomes treating (730-100)=630cmh from ambient condition to
coil condition and recirculatory system option becomes treating 900cmh from room
condition to coil condition.
The formulae
H1 is ambient air enthalpy in btu/lb
H2 is room air enthalpy in btu/lb and
H3 is enthalpy of air at coil exit in btu/lb
So, fresh air energy(for comparision) is 4.5x(H1-H3)x370.8cfm(i.e 630cmh) - (3)
Recirculation air energy is 4.5x(H2-H3)x529.72cfm(i.e 900cmh) - (4)
The lower value of (3) and (4) is your ultimate choice.
Hope I cleared the issue.
Regards,
quark (Mechanical)
7 Jun 05 5:29
On a second reading, you seem to have grasped what I said perfectly except 630cmh
thing, which I cleared in my third post.
Regards,
7 Jun 05 6:16
Oh, thank You Quark, very much. This is a real thing. Except for one thing (quoted):
"H1 is ambient air enthalpy in btu/lb
H2 is room air enthalpy in btu/lb and

H3 is enthalpy of air at coil exit in btu/lb
So, fresh air energy(for comparision) is 4.5x(H1-H3)x370.8cfm(i.e 630cmh) - (3)
Recirculation air energy is 4.5x(H2-H3)x529.72cfm(i.e 900cmh) - (4) "
The values for H1, H2 and H3 where can be get ?
Especially in btu/lb. Also, isn't any changes if in formulae are used different valuses of units
(ex. btu/lb and cmh) ?
Greets,
7 Jun 05 6:59
To Quark:
OK, I did some calc:
The values of H1-H2-H3 are taken from Psychrometric analyzer, for altitude of 423 m. (If
they are wrong, correct me).
Input:
H1: T=40C/50%RH, equal of 104.0048 kJ/kg
100% fresh air:
4.5x(104.0048-39.6754)x630=182385.18 (kJ*m3)/(kg*h)
90% recirc air:
4.5x(51.6318-39.6764)x900=48419,37 (kJ*m3)/(kg*h)
Is is the correct value above ? What gives (kJ*m3)/(kg*h)precisely ?
The 2nd:
What happens if I'm heating the air ?
I got negative value for 100% fresh air:
Outdoor temperature is: -10C/35%RH
4.5x(-8.6005-39.6764)x630=-1368650.1 (or maybe I have to to opposite process to
substract from 39.6764 value of 8.6005)?
Anyway, I still can't find the "catch" in solution of 100% fresh air. simply, knowing people
that are working on their solution, there must be some trick in their solution of HVAC.
Greets,
quark (Mechanical)
8 Jun 05 1:03
The other values seem to be ok but not the H3, for the coil outlet condition should
essentially be saturated(or near to saturation). That means the RH should be nearer to
100.
Secondly, 22C coil outlet temperature is quite high even for comfortable cooling
application. If your area deals with any of liquid injectables, granulation, coating or
capsulation areas, the moisture load will be a bit high.
My equations can't be used with metric units. However, you can download an excellent unit
conversion program 'Uconeer' written by Katmar, a fellow member of eng-tips, from the
following link.
http://www.katmarsoftware.com/uconeer.htm
Yu should also consider heat gain in return ducting when you deal with recirculatory
system. But as far as the primary comparision is concerned, the procedure is ok. The whole
idea is to show that fresh air systems always prove you costly.
Regards,
8 Jun 05 2:20
1 Apr 06 7:48
Hello, Im new in this forum and have a question.

I need to calculate de cooling load of an area that demands 100% outside air, and to be
honest, I dont Know how to do it. There are some questions that comes to my mind:
What should be the leaving air temperature? The loads produce by people, lights, walls,
etc that we estimate in a recirculating system, should be calculated in this kind of system
too?. I really apreciate some help. (Im from Dominican Republic, so excuse my english).
Thanks.
1 Apr 06
14:35
For the outside air:

Sensible cooling
CU FT/MIN x 1.085 X outside AIR DELTA t = BTU/HR
SENSIBLE
Latent cooling:
fu ft/min x 0.66 x (delta moisture in grains/lb from
psychometric chart) = btu/hr latent
Sensible load + latent load = total cooling load for outside air
In general, cold air is delivered at 55F dry bulb and wet bulb (ie, saturated)
Building solar loads, lights, equipment and people loading should be included in your
calculations.
You should probably hire a Mechanical Engineer to do this as he is familiar with it and you
aren't.
waross (Electrical)
1 Apr 06
15:30
Hello willard3
I have met some intelligent dedicated engineers in the third world. Unfortunately, the
training and educational systems there are not up to first world standards.
pablo2410 has recognized that he doesn't have the information that he needs to solve his
problem and has wisely gone looking for good advice.
I thank you on behalf of pablo2410 for your kind help, but I wish to gently point out that
your last suggestion may not be feasible.
pablo2410 is quite possibly the best mechanical engineer available.
You may find it rewarding, willard3 to mentor pablo2410 and help him to become a better
engineer. From the tone of his post I believe he is intelligent and dedicated. He recognizes
shortcomings in his education and is trying to improve himself.
You have already given pablo2410 the basics, go a little farther and help him through his
calculations and you may find that you enjoy it.
respectfully
2 Apr 06
18:33
pablo,
Take a look at this site:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hvac-systems-t_23.html
quark (Mechanical)
2 Apr 06
23:13
Pablo,
The room leaving air condition should always be the room condition.
Calculate heat load as per the general rules. Plot the room condition and ambient
condition state points on the psychro chart. Draw a line with a slope of SHR from the
room condition to the saturated curve. This is your dew point condition. Join the ambient
condition state point to the dew point. The total load on the coil will be the mass flow rate
of air times the enthalpy difference between the ambient condition and the dew point
condition. In some cases, the SHR line becomes an asymptote to the saturation curve. In
this case, assume some arbitrary dew point and add reheat into the process.
The link below gives you description and details of many psychrometric processes. Have
a look into it.
http://www.coolit.co.za/psychart/
Waross,
Nice thinking and I feel that is the whole idea behind these forums.
3 Apr 06 8:28
Thank you all of you for your help

Here comes another question, how can i calculate mass flow, i mean, i know the volume
of air in the room, but how do i know how many times do i have to recirculate it
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06
12:11
correct me if I am wrong but I am assumming you meant Volume flow instead of mass
flow.
Below is something I grabbed off a website descrbing what I think will be of help to you.
One air change occurs in a room when a quantity of air equal to the volume of the room is
supplied and/or exhausted.
Air change rates are units of ventilation that compare the amount of air moving through a
space to the volume of the space. Air change rates are calculated to determine how well
a space is ventilated compared to published standards, codes, or recommendations.
Air changes per hour (ACH) is the most common unit used. This is the volume of air
(usually expressed in cubic feet) exhausted or supplied every hour divided by the room
volume (also usually expressed in cubic feet).
Airflow is usually measured in cubic feet per minute (CFM). This is multiplied by 60
minutes
to determine the volume of air delivered per hour (in cubic feet).
ACH = (CFM X 60 minutes)/(room volume in cubic feet)
3 Apr 06
12:33
What i want to know is how can i determine the CFM needed for the area.
3 Apr 06
12:39
Pablo:
The sensible heat ratio and cooling load will dictate the air changes/hour and is the
solution to the problem. Try not to confuse the cause for the effect.
In my climate, ie, 42 deg latitude and 73 deg longitude, in a frame-built, insulated
building with approx 20% glass and 8' ceilings, cfm varies from 1 cfm/square foot to 3
cfm/square foot of floor depending upon internal loading, ie, number of people, lighting,
equipment loads and ventilation loads.
We have building codes in New York that make the range of these numbers pretty small.
Your latitude is 18 deg and longitude is 69 deg, so solar loading and air temperatures will
be very different than New York. I am also sure that you construction materials and
methods are different than ours so building mass and etc will be different
You should get a copy of ASHRAE Fundamentals Volume(American Society of Heating,
Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers); it contains answers to all the questions you
are asking. You have access to the web, so "Google" ASHRAE.
You can also use Trane software to calculate heating/cooling loads, but you need first to
understand the input. ASHRAE will be a big help with the input.
Wrong data:
3 Apr 06
12:42
Right data:
3 Apr 06
13:14
Ok, (willard3) the first formula you gave, me was a variation of the first law of
thermodinamics, another way to put it is using the mass flow times the enthalpy
difference between ambient condition and dew point condition, but in both cases i need a
flow of air in terms of mass or volume, and there is my confusion. The other question is :
do i need a 55F leaving air temperature in a system using 100% outside air?. I make this
question because i assume that in this kind of system, there is no mix between the air in
the room and the air from outside to achive a medium temperature, because eventually
the total volume of air in the room will be exhauted and replace for a new volume from
the outside, so i was thinking that the leaving air temperature should be the temperature
of the conditions i want in the room, lets say 73.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06
15:03
I am going to take a stab at this.

Design condition:
Outside air temp (DB/WB) = 92F/68F (0.5% mean summer temp Los Angeles)
Supply air temp = 55F
Assumptions:
Dimension of space 60'(L)x60'(W)x15'(H)
20 people x 250 btu/hr = 5000 btu/hr
2.5 watts/sf lighting = 9000 btu/hr
Assume 5,000 BTU/hr exterior loads
------------------------------------ACH (Air change per hour) = 10
therefore CFM = ACH x Volume / 60 = (10 x 54,000 cu ft)/60 = 9,000 cfm
So 9,000 cfm is required to exhaust the room 10 times per hour.
Now to determine the load on the cooling coil:
Cooling coil load = 1.1 x CFM x (T1 - T2) = 1.1 x 9,000 x (92-55) = 366,300 BTU/hr
Summing all the loads:
366,300 btu/hr + 5000 btu/hr + 9000 btu/hr + 5,000 btu/hr = 385,300 btu/hr or 32 tons.
So to select a unit to suit all the above loads, I will select a 35 ton unit.
This is just a generic example. There are many other loads that I am not incorporating.
Hopefully this can get you in the right direction.
3 Apr 06
15:41
Ok, so far, all the things that had been told here, i already knew it.I think i,m not asking
the right question, so here i go, how can i determine the total cfm that is required to pass
trough a cooling coil in a system that requires 100% outside air, or how do i know how
many changes of air do i need.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06
17:01
The CFM required is calculated by the engineer. Typically for a laboratory the ACH is 6-15
ACH. A restroom is 4-8 ACH. (these are recommended numbers we use in our office.
These are not a standard.)
Does that help?
3 Apr 06
18:53

a locker room
Area 3550 sqft
height 10ft
what will be the diference in my load calculation if the system is 100% recirculate air or
100% outside air.
LSA (Mechanical)
3 Apr 06
20:45
Air change method

Assumptions:
Summer design condition 92F/63F
Indoor design condition 72F
Interior location therefore no external load
Locker Room ACH = 15 (again, this is our office standard)
Volume: 3550 sf x 10' = 35,500
People load sensible = 520 btuh/person (18,200 btuh) (just got done working out)
People load latent/person = 105 btuh (3575 btuh)
Lighting load = 1.5 watts/sf (5325 btuh)
CFM = 15 x 35,500 / 60 = 8,875 cfm (lets say 9000 for simplicity)
1. For 100% outside air:
Cooling coil load = 366,300 btuh
Total sensible load = 366,300 + 5325 + 18,200 = 389,825 btuh or 32.5 tons.
2. The difference will be substantial but Locker rooms are never 100% recirculated. There
will always be some amount fresh air brought into the space.
The air change method is a simple method of getting an approximate idea of what size
unit is required. In locker room applications many times they are heated and ventilated
only. And Make-up air is usually always required to achieve proper air balance.
Hope that clears up some questions you may have. GL
cme (Mechanical)
5 Apr 06
16:41
a rule of thumb ..... 150 cfm/ton for a preliminary sizing load

final psych chart analysis on DB/meanWB per ashrae geographic data
don't forget fan heat gain
62hog (Mechanical)
24 Apr 06
12:20
One other thing must be taken into account. If you are planning on using a packaged
system (ie., rooftop unit), you must consult with the manufacturer. As a general rule, (at
least according to my local reps) a packaged unit is only capable of accepting
approximately 25-30% of the total airflow in the form of unconditioned outside air.
Any system you use should be discussed with you local rep. You should also require them
to also provide you with any documentation for information that may differ from you
"sound engineering judgement."
FYI, ASHRAE list the design condtions for Dominican Republic cooling, in the 0.4% range,
as 91/80 dF db/wb.
24 Apr 06
12:49
62hog is right. Chilled water systems are recommended for 100% OA applications.
However it is also possible to use multistage package DX AC units by recirculating a
portion of the supply direct to the return and supplying to the room only the CFM
equivalent of the OA handled. For example, if the load for say 4000 CFM 100% OA is 20
tons. Use a 20 ton unit say nominal 8000 CFM, but use 4000 CFM OA, 8000 CFM total SA,
4000 CFM recirc direct back to AHU and 4000 CFM supply to the room. Solve for the
mixed air conditions of the OA and recirc air to get cooling coil entering air condition.
Interpolate performance from tabulated date. Solve for cooling coil leaving air
temperature. Determine fan and duct heat gains and deduct from tabulated capacity to
get net capacity.
thootz (Mechanical)
30 Apr 06
23:52
First you need to compute the total heat load .like number of window, size of doors what
materials used in the building Wall. You may find the value of each material in Ashrae
handbook or Mechanical handbook.You may also use Manual J method, a software for load
computation.
This wil guide you step by step method.
sloyal (Mechanical)
1 Jun 06 15:02
Here's my 2 cents...
BTUH = 4.5 x cfm x Delta H
H=psych chart enthalpy
McQuay & Trane as well as others have downloadable Charts that should give Enthalpy
conditions,
I prefer the straight edge on a paper graph (calcs for the files)
My design conditions are 89db/73wb Enthalpy = 36.5
indoor cond. 75dF 50% Humidity Enthalpy = 28.0
or 70dF 50% Humidity Enthalpy = 26.3
For ease of use I call it a dH of 10
Btuh= cfm x 4.5 x 10
If I find I need a 20 Ton system, I'll be very careful to select a coil on face velocity, to
avoid freeze up,
as well as Latent & sensible capacities.
Interlaced coils with multiple stages (more is better) work best.
I avoid conditioning the space with this system as it would require a larger system.
I prefer delivering room temp air & having a seperate recirculating system for space
loads. I may even deliver a portion of the "tempered outdoor air" into the return of the
space conditioning system, Possibly 100% if the cfm matches, with a return setup for
independent operation.
My winter design is -20dF so any outdoor air is heated & it's usually done with a direct fire
MAU. The products of combustion in this air has recently become an issue, especially on
units recirculating any inside air.
With these design conditions, I would look at incorporating a Heat Recovery Ventilator.
Something like a RenewAire with latent & sensible exchange can save a boatload on the
aforementioned Gas MUA w/20ton coil.
Exh air conditions (i.e. dust, oil, etc...) might prohibit a heat exchanger altogether.
good luck
slj
Yorkman (Mechanical)
1 Jun 06 19:37
One thing not to overlook is that the latent load is going to be rather high, given that this
is a locker room with showers. A recirculated system's latent loads at the coil could be
higher than the OSA senario. I would look up latent load and air change recommendations
in the ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook. It may make more economical sense to go with
100% O.S.A. and keep my discharge air at say 60 65 degrees afterall it is a locker room.
Hey I have enough problem with shrinkage. ;>) Good luck, with this much advise how
could you go wrong?
I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
A.J. Gest, York Int.
CoreTech01 (Mechanical)
4 Jun 06 13:54
Quote________________
a locker room
Area 3550 sqft
height 10ft
what will be the diference in my load calculation if the system is 100% recirculate air or
100% outside air.
_____________________
The difference in your load calculation is HUGE.
Post a little more information like whats your design room temp? For public locker rooms
I design around a 77-78 Deg. Indoor temp year round.
A few things you need to know first about locker rooms.
Locker rooms should always be kept slightly negative.
The locker room area should be completely sealed NO plenum returns No mixing of air
with other systems.
You are allowed to re-circulate air providing it is the air from the locker room area.
You must have exhaust fans.
You dont always need 100% Outside air just enough to provide proper ventilation to
match your exhaust.
I have use E.R.Vs in locker rooms to recover as much energy as possible to lower the
load.
In your case if you use 100% outside air you will need to exhaust 110% of that air (to
keep the space slightly negative)
Thats a HUGE load to cool and then to exhaust if you live in a warm climate.
25 Jan 12 11:19
Hi
I am designing a MAU for the first time
I am trying to understand how to determine the amount of return air to supply a mixing
box before the heater.

The outside winter design conditions are -15f at 70% humidity. inside design is 75f at 50%
humidity.
I need to supply 10,000cfm of fresh air which is need to meet my air change rate per hour .
The room needs 1000 cfm to maintain the pressure needed.
I would like to mix some return air with the outside air to save some energy.
But want minimize the size of my supply fan. How do I determine the amount of return air
to use.
Attach is a general free body diagram.
.
25 Jan 12
14:21
Outside air and "air change rate" are not usually the same. Minimum fresh air is calculated
per ASHRAE 62.1 or code and is often a function of floor area and occupancy. Since this
affects size of heating significantly, you should minimize the outside air as much as you
can. Air change is usually a summer cooling requirement and is equal to supply air flow.
Also, by definition a make up air unit doesn't recirculate air.
KiwiMace (Mechanical)
25 Jan 12
15:02
Student
henegg (Mechanical) (OP)
25 Jan 12
15:53
thanks for the info.

the air change per hour ACH,in this case is dictated by the purpose of this room, not the
occupancy of the room. The ach requirement is larger than the heat loss so I am using the
ACH for this design.
so if I need to use 100% fresh air(finished food product area) to meet my ACH how would
one determine how much return air to use. I tried using 25% of the mass flow rate of the
fresh supply air. but at -15f fresh air 1200lb/min and 75f return air 400lb/min( the rates are
approximate), the mixed air is at the left of the saturation line.
I assume this is not a good situation.
Please straighten me out.
where
With
OA=10,000cfm
leakage=1,000cfm
EX = SA - RA - Leakage
25 Jan 12
16:41
RA + OA = SA
2 equations, 3 unknowns
if you want to minimize SA, set RA=0
EX = 9,000 cfm
SA = 10,000 cfm
Recirculating air won't save heating energy, so there is no mixing problem.
henegg (Mechanical) (OP)
25 Jan 12
21:39
Thanks that helps

29 Jan 12
0:13
You need 1,000 cfm supply and 10,000 cfm of outdoor air. Go with -9,000 cfm return...
Return air quantity is not something you design around. You just maximize it when
conditions permit (very hot or very cold out).
For help, you might need to clarify your problem.
lma1 (Mechanical)
4 Feb 12
19:41
As ChasBean1 (Mechanical) suggested, you need to clearly define your problem. The
following might help:
1. I understood that you need to supply 10,000 CFM O/A to the room. And this is based on
your ACH rate required?
2. You need also 1,000 CFM S/A to pressurize the room?
3. Is the 1,000 CFM the leakage air as houseman20 (Mechanical) suggested?
4. I've trouble with the statement "The ach requirement is larger than the heat loss so I am
using the ACH for this design." ACH gives you an idea of what ventilation air (fresh air) is
required. Heat loss or gain determines the heating or cooling (air-conditioning) supply air
(S/A) required. I think you mean the ACH criterion requires more air than that based on the
heating or cooling calculation and you therefore based the supply air on 10,000 S/A which
is required by the ACH estimate?
5. Since S/A = O/A + R/A & your S/A = O/A, R/A must be 0? You lose 1,000 CFM thru
leakage and another 9,000 thru other exhaust opening(s). So S/A = 10,000 CFM = E/A =
(1,000 + 9,000) CFM.
6. No R/A is needed or desired in your case as houseman20 (Mechanical) demonstrated if
we understand what you've been asking.
18 Apr 03 10:00
I'm designing an air conditioning system for 100% outside air. The area is a small lab room
approximately 950 ft3. My heating loads are 6600 Btuh sensible and 1500 Btuh latent. I
trying to design the cfm required. I'm working in a dry climate so I've neglected the latent.
Some people suggest that I should:
6600/(1.08*(97-55)) where 97 is the outside air requirements and 55 is the leaving
temperature off the coil. This delivers about 152 cfm. The reason I've been given is
because that temperature of the air I want to deliver and am making up for the 6600 heat
gain. This gives me about 10 Air Changes/Hour
Other people suggest that I should use:
6600/(1.08*(75-55)) where 75 is the temperature inside the room. This delivers about 305
cfm. I will size the coil from this formula: 1.08*(97-55)*305. I have also been told if I use
this method that I will freeze up the coil because the air flow is too great.
Which method is right? Can I buy this system as a packaged unit? Also where can I find a
psychometric chart for 4500 feet elevation?
Thanks
FCIBSE (Mechanical)
18 Apr 03
14:55
Have you consider Ventilation Displacement system yet?

ChipFuller (Mechanical) (OP)
18 Apr 03
22:09
What's a ventilation desplacement system?

19 Apr 03
21:30
your reasoning escapes me. Is the sensible heat of 6600 btuh generated by lab equipment,
lighting and the 10 or less air changes and heat transfer thru walls, ceiling and floor?
20 Apr 03
0:31
Chip Here's how I see this. I wouldn't go by either option you've shown. I would analyze this
from load to source, and there is a latent gain at the load. I would therefore use:
Q=4.5*cfm*dH in lieu of Q=1.08*cfm*dT
Total space load is latent + sensible, which is 8,100 BTU/hr. To obtain cooling airflow
needed, use the Q=4.5*cfm*dH equation, which solves for total load (sensible and latent)
based on enthalpy. With a saturated 55F supply air stream, and to maintain the 75F
space temperature at 50% relative humidity, the load (room) would require 364 cfm.
364 cfm is the volumetric flow rate that the central AHU would need to cool from 97F to
55F. Using Q=1.08*cfm*dT, as you note that this is a dry area, the AHU coil would need to
be sized for this reduction in temperature at this flow. This equates to an AHU cooling
capacity of 16,500 BTU/hr.
Note that I'm skeptical of the lack of need for the AHU to remove moisture because this is a
"dry climate." Dry is a relative term. 97F and 24.6% humidity would produce saturated
55F air. If the humidity were higher than 24.6%, the coil would also need to remove
moisture.
I'm open to rebuttal on this - haven't gone back to thermo/HVAC books, but this way seems
to make sense to me.
As a side note, be careful of sizing DX units. The load conditions stated will be rare so you
need a unit that will perform well at partial load.
Best of luck. -CB
quark (Mechanical)
20 Apr 03
23:59
I vote for CB. However if you want to go your way you should consider 75 to 55 deg.F
because at no time you want to increase the room temperature above 75 deg.F. If you
consider a TD of 95 to 55 for a load of 6600 Btu/Hr then when this heat load adds up from
the room the leaving temperature will be higher than 75 deg.F.
You better follow CB's comments.
25 Apr 03
3:31
I am sorry, Perhaps not agree with all above explanation.

My answer to CHIPFULLER's question is as follows.
I will start with basics. If you refer to carrier handbook or any other engineering book on
Air-conditioning. You will find that the grand total heat, in your case it is 8100btu/hr i.e
0.675 tons, is used to calculate the tonnage requirement.This means that your coil should
be capable to give you an output of 0.675. Now the question is how much air is needed to
achieve this.This can not be decided with
above two equations.You will have to do the iterations.First assume some fresh air i.e 1
airchange/hr and calculate the dehumidified air quantity requied.Repeat this procedure till
you balances your fresh air with dehumidified air.This will give you the quantity of air
required to maintain the desired inside conditions.
Answer to your second question regarding pyschometric chart for different elevation.U will
note that all the standard psychometric charts are designed at atmospheric pressure of
760mm of Hg.For pressure other than 760mm of Hg, you will have to physically draw it.
Procedure on how to draw psychometric chart is available in any air conditioning book. U
can refer to that.
I hope all above explanation clarified all your queries. In case of any query pls. let me
know.
25 Apr 03
13:50
Anand, could you clarify the iteration? What do you get for an answer? Thanks, -CB
briand2 (Mechanical)
25 Apr 03
15:55
ChasBean1's response of 20th April 2003 is absolutely perfect. I've sized countless air
conditioning systems over the years, and I've never had to carry out some "iteration" to
get the cooling requirement.
AnandHVAC: I too would be really interested to see why an iterative process should be
necessary on this occasion (I might be experienced, but I never miss the opportunity to
learn!!).
Regards,
Brian
coolingunit (Automotive)
26 Apr 03
6:04
anandHVAC: Your explanation is excellent. I would like to know the iterative procedure of
calculating the fresh air requirement.
28 Apr 03
1:30
"Iteration" means trial and error method.

During heatload calculation you will have to assume some fresh air quantity to calculte
dehudified CFM requirement.
You will have to reiterate this procedure by varying fresh air quantity till it balances with
dehumidified CFM.
Unless this both quantity matches you will not satisfy the condition of 100% fresh air.
It is imposible for me to explain the method of calculation via mail. However, u can refer to
carrier handbook for
more information.
In case of any queries/cmments do let me know. I will try my best to address it.
cbiber (Mechanical)
28 Apr 03
12:48
I have found several psychrometric charts online for elevations other than sea level. For
example Google found this one for me using the search terms "psychrometric chart
altitude":
http://www.heatcraftheattransfer.com/pdfs/Normal5000.PDF
It's for 5000 feet, not 4500, but it's close enough to get you started.
Biber Thermal Design
www.biberthermal.com
quark (Mechanical)
29 Apr 03
0:54
Dr. Zekyl says, it is always better if you have time to practically design a system.
(supplying air quantity to remove heat load and moisture load and incrementing it to reach
balance)
Mr. Hyde says, well if you want to increase complexity of a simple solution go ahead. None
of carrier's people nor any other engineer objects you.The fundamental is to check the
total enthalpy of fresh air and the conditions you wanted at the room. Basically theair
exiting the room should have same properties of required condition otherwise room
conditions cannot be maintained. Now by the simple calculation given by CB and used
widely everywhere, calculate the cfm. This is enough cfm that will carry heat and moisture
out of the room.
This is more simpler than recirculation system because you need not further remove the
moisture from the exiting air stream. Just you are throwing it away. Still, if you love math
iterations, higher order differential equations and probability will always help you. Best of
Luck.
(Bah! am I being too dramatic?)
29 Apr 03
12:35
This could be a good exercise because we might be talking apples and apples here. Anand,
did the reiterative process produce a result?
energy7 (Mechanical)
10 May 03
18:08
Lets keep it simple, your application is not rocket science

1st, your CFM required is dictated by your total sensible load and the temp you want to
maintain in the room at the supplly air temp you plan to provide.
it is simply found as
Rm CFM = Room BTHU QS / 1.08 ( Trm - Tsa )
2nd, beause you specify 100% OSA ( I will not ask why 100% ),
your coils will never see this load.
Coil Capacity will need to be based on the air flow design above
at ( OSA EAT db / wb - SAT - (LAT) db/wb )
good luck
12 May 03
13:18
The cooling coil will need to cool 100%OA to the condition such that when this coil leaving
air is discharged into the room. it will pick up heat and moisture & air is then exhausted.
The condition of the air exhausted typically matches the room inside conditions. If the
cooling coil cools the air to 50 deg F & the room design condition is 72 def F then the air
quantity required Rm Load in BTU per hr/(1.1 x (72-50)). Now you must also satisfy the
latent loads. The Coil must dehumidify the same quantity of air to the humidity such that
when discharged into the room it will absorb the latent load & it's RH will be within the
design range. You may have to reheat to maintain the required space humidity.
13 May 03
12:29
Labs typically require 100% outdoor air. Make sure you have enough for exhaust hood
makeup. Simplest control is constant volume reheat. You can also have (2) position occupied/unoccupied or variable volume, all with reheat. Usually humidity is cirtical so
humidification is also required. Chilled water system is best. If DX you will find out that
when you size the it for the load w/ 100% OA, the unit CFM (typically 350 CFM/ton) would
be more than you need to do the room sensible load.What I have done is recirculate back
some of the air. This unit should only serve a lab not a group of labs to avoid cross
contamination. Part of the fan discharge is ducted direct back to the return. You have to
recalculate & do trial & error of the coil entering air condition (mix of OA & recirculated air
at coil discharge condition plus fan heat. The AC unit should have hot gas controls. A
humidistat in addition to a thermostat should be used to bring on cooling. Final space
temperature should be controlled by the reheat coil.
2 Jun 03 4:44
Could you see "the dedicated units" from the news letter of www.trane.com?
2 Jun 03
21:46
No I couldn't. Link is to trane.com main page. Checked under "News" and didn't see
"dedicated units." Tried a search for "dedicated units" and no luck. Could you be more
specific?
tmprider (Mechanical)
3 Jun 03 9:16
Try using an ERV sized for the 100% fresh air load. Locate it in the ceiling space of the lab
for ease of maintenance and cleaning. This will most likley decrease the size of the unit
that you go with, and will allow you to take advantage of "free cooling". Overall, your
energy consumption will be less due to the lower delta T at your coils.
DH
VSSriram (Mechanical)
12 Jul 03
13:34
This seems to be an interesting heat load which I used to do manually at the start of my
career. 100% outside air application cooling load calculations are normally done by
iteration.
First assume a particular outside air quantity and do the load calculations, find out what
the dehumidifed air quantity is. If it matches the assumed outside air quantity, then the
initial assumption is right. Otherwise, do another load calculation absed on the
dehumidified air quantity obtained and keep doing this (iteration !!!) till you get the same
figure.
Alternatively, if you have a software like E20-II of Carrier, you can just input all the relevant
data and put 100% outside air and the program gives an output which will be 100%
outside air.
12 Jul 03
22:23
Hi
Here is web address for mentioned article and complete article name. If you still can not
get it, give my your email address. Then send it to u by email. My email:
naymo@greenaire.com.sg
"http://www.trane.com/commercial/library/archived_newsletters.asp";
19 May 13 0:37
Achieving the Desired Return Air quantities from occupied spaces.
The HVAC System consists of roof mounted Air Handling units for a single storey building
that has many rooms. The system is designed for 20% fresh air and 80% return air that is
achieved in the mixing box of the air handler.
The return air from the ceiling diffusers back to the Air Handler is not ducted. A short piece
of duct with a bell mouth is extended from the AHU on the roof to the space above the
acoustic tile false ceiling to draw air from all the rooms and corridors in the building.
The Supply air in each room is 400 CFM, but the return air quantity measured from the
return air diffusers is coming to only 100 CFM.
We could not detect any infiltration of air from the light fixtures or the cracks and crevices
in the false ceiling. The measurements from such light fixtures and edges of the false
ceiling panels is registering zero on the measuring Hood.
The total return air measured at the bell mouthed duct to the AHU or at the straight piece
of duct at the roof before its connection to the machine is as per design quantity. So the
AHU is drawing air from somewhere. While we are in the process of checking the point of
infiltration, the questions are: 1) What is the acceptable tolerance of return air quantities
from the rooms whose type of occupancy is offices? ; 2) Is this achievable in non ducted
return air systems?
19 May 13
8:39
You will never balance a plenum air return properly. If you need to balance accurately, you
need return ducts.
solidspaces (Mechanical) (OP)
19 May 13
9:49
I agree willard3, but there must be the practice of the trade or Ashrae/Smacna guidelines
about acceptable performance. Is 10% deviation Ok or is even 20% excusable. There has
to be a minimum acceptable performance in such cases. Getting only 25% return air
compared to supply air appears way too far.
DRWeig (Electrical)
19 May 13
13:30
As long as the plenum is at a negative pressure relative to the space, there should be no
problem? Is there a comfort or odor problem you are trying to solve?
You can't specify a tolerance for return air flow if there is no means to adjust it, so there
won't be any sort of standard in my opinion. I'm agreeing with Willard3 here, but going a
bit farther.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
19 May 13
18:32
The building is not occupied yet. With so little return, an odor problem would most likely
arise. If the plenum is at a negative pressure compared to the space but the return air
quantity that is showing up on the hood is very little, that might mean that the rooms will
very soon face heavy air. Is it being implied that we need not do air balancing of the return
air?
Secondly if there is no problem, then we can always omit a ducted return (if we can afford
a little cooling load increase).
Drazen (Mechanical)
20 May 13
5:41
why would you not open return diffusers to the maximum and measure quantity, as a first
step.
open the one closest to ahu, measure, than close it and open the farthest one.
DRWeig (Electrical)
20 May 13
9:11
I was assuming that you do not have adjustable return diffusers. I have never seen
adjustable return diffusers in a plenum-return system. Aren't they something like eggcrate
panels? If so, you cannot possibly balance return flows. How can you balance the airflow
through several holes that don't have dampers?
I don't understand your comment, "...that might mean that the rooms will very soon face
heavy air." If you have 400 CFM going into a room, you also have 400 CFM leaving the
room. If it's not going up the return grille, it's going into the hallway. Many places have no
return grille at all in the rooms, but a single common return in a corridor that is ducted
back to the rooftop unit.
Close all the office doors. Light up a cigarette (or spend some money on a smoke candle).
Stand in a room farthest away from the rooftop unit. With 400 CFM supply and 100 CFM
return Follow your smoke until it makes it to a return grille. It will probably be in the few
offices very close to the rooftop unit.
You mentioned 20 percent outside air. How does the relief air exit the building?
Best to you,
Goober Dave
20 May 13
10:11
DRWeig:
Since 400 CFM are coming in, the same quantity is definitely leaving but not from the
return grille and this is the issue. If the door is closed this might even pressurize the room
forcing the supply air to go to adjacent rooms. I feel this will somehow destabilize the
system and would cause odors in rooms that are not having the same CFM leaving the
room. It would also cause a nuisance when the room occupied by a smoker is not getting
the smoke pulled out from the ceiling diffuser and it is instead going to the hallway.
The 20% make up of fresh air is due to the 20% being extracted by exhaust fans from the
toilets.
DRWeig (Electrical)
20 May 13
11:30
That's great, solidspaces. You are right, odors will go from office to corridor to the other
offices. However, this will happen whether the door is open or closed, unless the door is
gasketed and sealed well at the floor.
The point is -- you cannot change it unless you install return dampers in each room and
balance them.
Try my experiment. Close all the doors. Then start at the last office on the end of the
supply duct run. Make some smoke and follow it. See where it goes.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
HerrKaLeun (Mechanical)
20 May 13
12:24
not sure I fully understand, but did you account for all the air that goes "through" the
acoustical ceiling and not through the return grill? An acoustical ceiling with laid-in tiles ,
fixtures etc. is like a sieve and the air goes path of least resistance.
In addition at such low flow rates your measuring hood isn't accurate. Just measuring adds
resistance, diverting more air "through" the ceiling.
Obviously as much air as comes in will leave the room, same for the AHU. If the plenum
doesn't have leaks to the outside or restrictions, it probably will be fine unless you
experience actual problems.
20 May 13
16:07
I am grateful to all who responded. The net result of this discussion is that matching the
return air quantities with supply is not as critical as I thought
21 May 13
7:29
You will find out, after the building occupants complain about humidity, odors and drafts,
that there should be return air ducts and the air volumes should be balanced.
21 May 13
11:54
Willard3:
I thought the consensus was that it is OK even if the quantities of supply and return do not
equal. Different arguments and explanations poured in about this disparity from the
sensitivity of measuring hood to the cracks and crevices of the false ceiling panels to the
positive and negative pressures to the argument that the air that is coming in must be
exiting also, etc.
Your eye opener response goes against all the above consensus and has revived my
concerns. So more responses are requested about the final action that is needed in this
matter.
DRWeig (Electrical)
21 May 13
13:00
Willard3 is not going against the consensus, he is adding information to it.

I just finished working 15 years in a building with plenum return. Complaints were few and
far between. There is no way to tell until 10 occupants all get together for a bean burrito
lunch on the same day that another occupant burns popcorn in the microwave and another
occupant heats up chicken tikka masala on a hot plate in his office. That happened in our
office maybe twice a year.
Ducted return would swoop that stuff back to the AHU to be mixed with OSA before
returning to the spaces. It's a chance you take.
Try my suggestion. Let some smoke loose in a room farthest from the RTU. Follow it. When
it leaves the hallway and starts entering other offices, imagine that it is "bioeffluent gas"
instead of just smoke.
The point is: It's OK to have supply not equal return with a plenum system because you
can't do anything about it. It occurs in all systems in which the owner doesn't want to
spring for ducted return.
There is nothing you can do to balance the return air, so ignore it. OR, duct the return.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
317069 (Mechanical)
design conditions: 400 cfm/room, 320cfm of return. 80 cfm of fresh air.
actual conditions: 400 cfm/room, 100 cfm of return, 300 cfm of fresh air.
did you check supply air condition?
22 May 13
12:48
what if you close the fresh air inlet then check return flow again?
23 May 13
10:25
317069: Yes we did check the supply air quantities. They are as per design. We could do
the experiment that you have suggested of blanking off the supply and check out the
return quantities. I am curious about your expectations or predictions about the effect of
doing so!
SAK9 (Mechanical)
23 May 13
18:45
Plenum return is fine if you have air tight ceiling void as in office towers with concrete
floors. Plenum return is not to be used in buildings with metal deck or similar roof structure
that are unlikely to be air tight. By measuring room conditions and the return conditions at
AHU inlet, you can establish if there is outside air leaking into the void. An easy way to
check if return is all right is to see if the doors are easy to open.
25 May 13
1:59
SAK9
All that you say makes sense. I am receiving the Air Balancing work from a subcontractor.
I just need to know if supply is 400 CFM and return is coming at only 100 CFM, can the
subcontractor be paid? Will these numbers be approved by the consultant? Or will the
company have to do it all over again? No objection was raised about the non ducted return
at the time of accepting the Air Balancing Job, so can anyone back track and start raising
hue and cry now, that it is not ducted?
317069 (Mechanical)
25 May 13
11:40
I didn't mean air quantities, (300 cfm fresh air+100 cfm return air)is a different than (300
cfm return air +100 cfm fresh air) for the same AHU or RTU, may be you have to hire an air
balance contractor to balance your system.
317069 (Mechanical)
25 May 13
13:09
ooops you already have a contractor.

berkshire (Aeronautics)
25 May 13
14:33
The total return air measured at the bell mouthed duct to the AHU or at the straight piece of
duct at the roof before its connection to the machine is as per design quantity.
So the disconnect if you can say that, is that the space above the ceiling is providing air
from somewhere other than the rooms to the air handler.
Has anybody looked at the point where the deck meets the exterior walls, to see if foam
seals are installed?
DRWeig (Electrical)
Quote (solidspaces)
25 May 13
22:13
I just need to know if supply is 400 CFM and return is coming at only 100 CFM, can the subcontractor
be paid?
There is no control for return air in a non-ducted system. The contractor cannot make it
any different than it is right now. If they balanced the supply air to 400 CFM, they are done.
Mission accomplished. The balancing firm did its job.
If you are supplying 400 to the space, sucking 80 of it out the toilet exhaust, measuring
design return air flow at the unit intake, and design outdoor air at the unit intake, you have
done all that you can do. There is no more that can be done. I would not bother measuring
return air in individual rooms. It cannot be balanced in any way, shape, or form.
Sorry for the dead horse above, feel free to red flag it.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
SAK9 (Mechanical)
27 May 13
8:02
You have not told us whether the AHU inlet conditions were close to design.If it is high
there may be outside air leaking into the system.As a matter of due diligence you should
highlight it to your consultant.
29 May 13
16:58
SAK9: The supply, return and fresh air quantities measured at or near the machine all add
up. The only problem is that the return air quantities are a fraction of what they should be
when measured by the hood at the ceiling return diffusers.
SAK9 (Mechanical)
29 May 13
20:27
Then it looks like most of the return is through light fittings(vented?)and through the gap
between lay in tiles and the frame.The hood may not register any air flow when held
against the light fitting as it will be well below its measuring range.Try a smoke test if you
need to put your mind at rest.
berkshire (Aeronautics)
30 May 13
1:50
SAK9,
This thing is getting circular, I believe DRWeig suggested this in his second reply.
And at the risk of him beating me, with the stick instead of the horse. Suspended ceiling
tile are notorious for this behavior.
B.E.
30 May 13
9:46
This is just recursive and somebody should kill this thread.....it's going nowhere.....
DRWeig (Electrical)
You're right SAK9 and berkshire, no beatings in the offing.
30 May 13
10:53
As for the last post by solidspaces,

Quote (solidspaces)
The only problem is that the return air quantities are a fraction of what they should be...
I will again, but more gently, state that there "what they should be" is what they are,
unless you have ducted return with balancing dampers. Your return quantities measured at
the return diffuser in each room are EXACTLY what they should be.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
fineartsnyc (Mechanical) (OP)
12 Aug 13
10:27
Hi all, Im working on HVAC system for luxury residential building.

Unit #1 two floors. Four bathrooms 75 cfm exhaust each. Total exhaust is 300 cfm.
Unit# 2 one floor. Two bathrooms 75 cfm exhaust each. Total exhaust is 150 cfm
Unit#3 one floor. Two bathrooms 75 cfm exhaust each. Total exhaust is 150 cfm
Unit#4 two floors. Four bathroom s 75 cfm exhaust each. Total exhaust is 300 cfm.
The exhaust fan will be controlled by local bathroom light switch.
Im planning to bring a fresh air to each air handler unit equal to the amount exhausted
from the toilet.
Thru a common duct to the roof with a gooseneck, each air handler fresh air takes-off from
the main fresh air duct.
My Question is.
How do I treat the outside air to protect the coil from freezing? Should I install electric duct
heater slip in type with a booster fan?
If so, how the control would work. Please advice. Thanks!!
317069 (Mechanical)
12 Aug 13
11:49
Leave toilet exhaust alone, it doesn't work all the time.

You can use an HRV for each air handler
sprinkler1000 (Mechanical)
12 Aug 13
11:50
It depends on the system you are installing and the minimum outside air temperature
expected.
You may have not only a coil freezing problem but a heating load higher than the unit can
handle.
If your option is a VRF system they have indoor units to treat outside air or even Heat
Recovery Units to exchange heat with exhaust.
12 Aug 13
11:59
in fact I'm using VRF system (Mitsubishi system) . 95 DB, 74 WB summer condition and 15
F winter Temp.
20 cfm/person X 5 = 100 cfm min. outside air.

12 Aug 13
12:13
since the toilet exhaust fan is not continuously we cant use ERV. Also its only 100 cfm O/A
required.
12 Aug 13
20:39
Check with Mitsubishi. I am more familiar with Daikin, but they should also have a
dedicated outside air unit.
The 15F may be a little low, but it will work most of the year.
12 Aug 13
23:40
i don't like the idea of using a dedicated outside air unit for just 100 cfm. is there any other
solution?
13 Aug 13
7:57
The idea was that you supply the total amount of fresh air (900 cfm) with the outside air
unit.
I thought you had a common duct.
13 Aug 13
8:16
Thanks. No we can't use a common hvac unit however the ductwork can be shared. We
have to use a separate unit since the unit owner has to pay the electric bills and
maintenance.
Waramanga (Mechanical)
15 Aug 13
7:09
what is your mixed air temp onto the coil? Give the mitsubishi engineers your parameters
and see what they come back with, your luxury units are not likely to have small FCUs so I
think you will be OK. Otherwise it is heat recovery, there are quite a few small ones
avaiable now.
16 Aug 13
11:52
Thanks Waramanga, since the toilet exhaust fan is not continuously we cant use ERV. Also
the 100% outside air unit from Mitsubishi is 1200 cfm, therefore I cant use it.
I'm thinking of using a small electric duct heater with inline fan to maintain the duct heater
velocity in each fresh air take-off to the air handler. (The building will share a common
fresh air duct work but the electric coil and fan has to be operated, maintained and
serviced by the apartment owner from the take-off)
ProcessHVAC (Mechanical)
16 Aug 13
15:07
"Im planning to bring a fresh air to each air handler unit equal to the amount exhausted
from the toilet" this is 900 CFM not 100 CFM OA as you said after, very confusing...
19 Aug 13
21:08
If this residential structure is a condominium with annual maintenance fees, I would have a
duct or a chase, dedicated for all the toilets, with a roof mounted exhaust fan whose cost
for replacement and electricity would be included in the annual fees.
19 Aug 13
21:32
Initially the design was to equal the fresh air intake and toilet exhaust, since the toilet
exhaust fan energize by light switch therefore the fresh air reduced to 160 cfm FAI to each
duplex condominium and 100 cfm FAI for the single unit.
yes the owner concern about the condominium maintenance fees. each unit will have own
exhaust system and fresh air intake.
I came up with an idea to use a small inline fan/electric duct heater with temperature
sensor for each unit.
22 Oct 14 8:19
Today I got into some discussion with a colleague regarding Air Changes and Fresh Air
Volume and I would like to get a "referee" to solve this.
Imagine the following situation for the sake of argument:
Room Volume: 100 m3
ACH (Air Change per Hour): 5
My position is that the ACH figures tells me how many times in a hour I have to replace the
air, so basically I would need to put in the room 500 m3 of fresh air
My colleagues position is that ACH means that we will have to circulate the air through the
HVAC system in an equivalent volume of 5 times the rooms volume (500m3) and that
fresh air should be around 12 l/s per person which give much lower fresh air needs.
I see validity on my colleaguesapproach and maybe I am being put off by the semantics,
in which for be air changes per hour basically means that I have to replace air inside the
room 5 times.
Which approach is the correct one?
Thanks a lot for your help.
22 Oct 14
8:24
You are right.

MedicineEng (Industrial) (OP)
22 Oct 14
8:45
MintJulep:
Thanks a lot for your feedback.
Nevertheless, and since meanwhile I also found some minimum fresh air tables that define
a diferent approach for instance Part F UK building regulations 2010 calls for a 10l/s per
person of fresh air.
Does thi smeans that if no Air changes are defined, we apply this value, if ACH is defined,
then it will overule the minimum fresh air requirements, correct?
DRWeig (Electrical)
22 Oct 14
8:54
You can meet the higher ACH value and include the lower 10 l/s per person. It's a matter of
mixing return and fresh air (and controlling same).
Best to you,
Goober Dave
22 Oct 14
8:54
You have to check what are the code requirements.

ASHRAE clearly states "Air changes per hour of outdoor air" which is different from "Air
changes per hour supplied to room". The latter refers to air movement.
22 Oct 14
9:12
You're friend is correct in my opinion. As an example, an OR room needs, under ASHRAE

170, to have 20 ACH and 4 ACH of outside air. Next point is that the ACH are measured ojn
the supply side if space is relative positve differential pressure and off the exhuast/retrun if
needed to be relative neg pressure.
ProcessHVAC (Mechanical)
22 Oct 14
9:20
It goes down to code definition. For instance NFPA 820 defines ACH as per your definition
(i.e. 100% O.A) but as mentioned in other standards, it could mean fan's CFM.
22 Oct 14
9:59
Thanks everybody for yout answers.

I guess that we can call it a draw then.
The two approaches are correct, depending on the governing code.
23 Oct 14
8:47
You are arguing semantics and not physics.

23 Oct 14
10:39
willard3:
In a sense you are right, but as someone pointed out above, different standards also have
different understandings of the word.
Further to our discussion, today my colleague came with a portion of a HVAC tender that
stated: " Air Balance Pressure 12 liters/sec per person" and he claims that this is related
with our discussion of the air changes per hour. I have a feeling that it doesnt but I also
couldnt explain why. Can anybody give a hint on what does this parameter relates with
ACH?
Thanks a lot.
24 Oct 14
12:03
I noticed now that I missed one line in my previous post:

The paper that my colleague showed me was written like this:
"
(...)
Area Air Requirements: 5 ACH
Air Balance Pressure: 12 lts/sec/person.
(...)
"
So thats why he is claiming that the ACH figure is referring to recirculating air, while the
air balance pressure is the fresh air.
Any thoughts on teh line of reasoning?
Thanks a lot
2 Oct 13 15:44
Hello,
I'm a beginner in Trane Trace 700, and I'm having a problem I can't figure out. I'm doing
load calculations for a building. I ran the calcs and everything came out OK. The procedure
for me now is to go through the OA calculations using ASHARE 62.1 excel sheet (the
company advises us not to use Trace ventilation method). Now that I hve the new OA
numbers, I'd like to add them to the rooms, but I also want to specifiy the design airflow for
the room so I don't have to go through a new set of OA calcs when Trace outputs a new
design CFM.
I attempted to set the "Main Supply" airflow in the airflow tab for the rooms, but the airflow
was still off by around 10%. I can't figure out why, but the design/space CFM is not coming
out to what I specified. Does anyone know what the problem might be?
3 Oct 13 7:27
I'm not sure if you mix up OA and design aiflow. Your company is right to require separate
OA calculation.
You should call Trane support ( it is free with your nandatory subscription).
Drazen (Mechanical)
3 Oct 13
16:59
do you swear that you have read manual in detail?

if you don't do that, you will never
reach acceptable level of knowledge and tips will not help you.
i don't use trace, but common fault in such setups is when concepts of supply air and
outside air are mixed. most of load calcs software provides supply air calculation, and fresh
air setup stands somewhere besides that.
MoeEng (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Oct 13
17:07
By design airflow I mean the SA CFM, not the OA. I contact Trane support as HerrKaLeun
suggested and they were able to help me out (not at once, but they got back to me). To
who's interested, the answer is below.

To specifiy the desired design SA CFM, the block cooling airflow must not be filled out for
the system. That's the only way to specify the SA CFM. Of course, that means that for a
single system, you'd need to specify all of the zone SA CFM's so that you get to your block
cooling airflow (from the AHU).
cry22 (Mechanical)
3 Oct 13
18:21
you may have locked the supply air temperature off the coil.
leave it blank and it will give you a different CFM
BUT, watch out if you get a too high SA temperature, you'll end with dehumidification
problems.
suggest that you give your file a generic name and post a TAF file for others to see.
You know how to make a TAF file, don't you?
If not, close the file, go to file/archive project, click on the TRC file and an archived TAF file
will be generated, post that file and we can check it out for you.
4 Oct 13 8:47
I do have the SA temperatures locked, and I'd like to keep them that way so I don't have to
critically look at every zone in this building every time I adjust the Trace file. I do have
another problem I'm trying to figure out, however.
For the outside air calculations, we design based on the peak design CFM for the VAV (in
our case VAV with hot water RH). I got the OA numbers I needed to satisfy ASHRAE 62.1,
and I inputted that into Trace as a CFM value. I set the SA CFM to the peak design of the
VAV box.
However, I'm designing the system based on the Block CFM, not the peak. Regardless of
which CFM I'm designing to, the CFM/ton comes out to around 220 which isn't easy to get
fromn an off-the-shelf AHU. When I got selections, the CFM for the AHU was 65% over the
design CFM specified by Trace, in order to meet the cooling load requirements.
What would be the procedure now? Should I bump up all of the VAV CFM's in order to get a
total CFM that matches the AHU, re-do the OA calculations, and re-input the values in
Trace? Or is there a standard method for adjusting the OA and load calculations based on
the selected AHU? As Cry22 mentioned, the SA temp should change since the cooling load
is relatively the same, but the CFM is a lot higher. However, the numbers in Trace stil have
the specified SA temperatures, so I'm having trouble figuring this out.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
4 Oct 13 8:49
I can archive it later today and post it if it'll help.

4 Oct 13
13:20
Trane support also can take your archived file and review it if needed. That can take them a
day or two, though.
4 Oct 13
13:58
Well the question I have now isn't necessarily a Trace question. It's what the standard
procedure for matching your load CFM from your load calculations and your CFM from your
selected AHU.
Drazen (Mechanical)
6 Oct 13
10:22
i am quite impressed on how complicated your posts are.

can we go step by step, for instance if you would reveal how trace's supply air calculations
are tied to your change of oa settings, we could possibly go forward...
6 Oct 13
13:01
In my experience it is easier to calcaulte OA requirement and minimum flow rates

separately in Excel (and you also need to meet local code, since that may differ from
ASHRAE). and then just dump that amount of air into the AHU (in Trane system settings you
just don't do all the fancy ASHRAE stuff).
This is easier to understand, less error-prone. Also easeir to show to AHJ what you did.
I once did a full ASHRAE calcaultion in Excel and Trace and never really had 100% the same
numbers, they always were a bit different whne you include all the ASHRAE loopholes. And
this didn't even work well with exhaust.
Here in WI code for ventialtion is different from IMC/ASHRAE. So what i do is calculate OA
for code, OA for ASHRAE and pick the higher number. In addition we have often huge
exhaust requirements, that supersede the OA requirements. In tha tcase the OA is
overdesigned anyway. This is not easily doen in Trane, if possible at all.
Trane is really really good. but if you don't understand something 100% you easily do it
wrong and get totally wrong numbers.
7 Oct 13 8:32
I'm not sure how to simplify what I'm saying

I have the required OA calcs from an Excel sheet. I inputted those values in Trace and I'm
getting the cirrect OA outputs. Now, I took the block capcacity, the SA CFM, and got
selections for an AHU. The CFM/ton based on the Trace file was around 220, which is too
low to get a good match from an off-the-shelf AHU.
The selection I got from the sales rep had a 65% higher SA CFM than the one Trace said I
should have. The question is, what now?
PS. HerrKaLeun, yea Trace is funny like that. We're actually supposed to do energy
modeling with Trace in a later phase of the project. I've never done it before and wonder
how accurate the results will be. I heard somewhere around +/- 20%!
Drazen (Mechanical)
7 Oct 13
12:29
ok, from the new post it looks like there is no direct link between your oa inputs and trace
load output though it looked so in first posts...
i have to guess and say that block load and ventilation load are summed up to reach
reference data for your ahu?
on the other hand, i also have to guess that you have no any other choice but to take some
packaged rooftop with fixed ton/cfm capacity.
first you should do is to check whether calculated minimum cfm can be reached by
controls with your picked ahu at all. if not, you simply have to change ahu selection
concept, give up locking supply temperature or similar. changing supply air temperature
should reduce collision.
it is also interesting to see how much block load differs from peak loads sum? if you are
limited with ahu choices, there could be, for instance, possibility to split into two
completely separate systems where two separate ahu's could fit.
no tool i use is a magic tool. best of them have most of useful options, but we always have
to be aware that each of them have their own limitations.
7 Oct 13
12:44
MoEng: Trace is probably the most accurate energy simulation since it actually has all the
HVAC options. But since it is more detailed, the user can make more mistakes.
If you use Trace for load anyway, it is natural to use it for energy simulation. But you should
know what you are doing.
7 Oct 13
12:59
Drazen: You guessed right in that I have no choice but to take some packed rooftop with a
fixed ton/cfm capacity. I'll try re-doing the calculations to get a better fit. The peak loads
and block loads are pretty close; a difference of about 10-15% max. But that's a good way
of validating zones. Gotta keep that one in mind! Thanks for the help.
HerrKaLeun: Oh yea, I can't wait til I have to re-do the energy model 10 times to figure out
what I inputted wrong haha.
7 Oct 13
14:08
MoeEng: there are so many AHU options (DOAS, where you add OA etc.). supply temp...
and Tran can simulate almost everything. just for giggles change ducted to plenum return
and you see a difference.
You also can insert the actual equipment unload and ambient relief curves etc.
Many energy simulations are not detailed with HVAC options. So the user can't do much
wrong.
If you enter everything right, Trace will be accurate.
One issue with all energy simulations: they simulate the assumed occupancy and usage
and also assume the system was properly commissioned and works as designed. In reality
this isn't the case.
7 Oct 13
14:16
Yea that's true. I did read something that mentioned that some projects needed some sort
of testing of the facility 1 year after building "open-up" to validate the energy model. I
think the term was called calibrating.
7 Oct 13
15:47
I think you mean the "validation and verification" requirement. Unless the energy
simulation was wrong, this isn't to calibrate the energy simulation. this is more to verify if
the system was installed and commissioned as designed.

the energy simulation, in my opinion, is to decide on what system is to be chosen. the
owner can use upfront cost, maintainability, energy consumption etc. to make a decision. it
isn't to predict exact consumption.
just for the fact that the energy simulation uses TMY3 or some other weather data (which
are an average design year) will make it impossible to compare one year to the simulation.
7 Oct 13
16:01
Oh I see. As far as using energy modeling to make better design decisions, it's a privelage I
don't see here very often. From what I've observed at many companies in the NY/NJ area,
energy modeling is usually used to fulfil some sort of project requirement such as LEED,
and it comes so far into the design phase that it makes it almost impossible to redesign in
time for the deadline's.
I'm hoping one day we can get a project where the client cares more about efficiency and
long-term returns than initial cost and deadlines.
7 Oct 13
20:03
Is it possible that your 220 cfm/ton number is caused by including OA treatment? yes for
recirculated air rule of thumb is 400 cfm / ton. But for OA this number is lower depending
on your climate.
Just an idea...
2 Dec 11 0:25
Hi Guys,
For one of the project that i am working on we hav calculated the building load and have
suggested fan coil units for most of the rooms in the bldg, the total fresh air requirement
for the building is 2000 l/s, indoor condition 22-23 C @ 50% RH and the outdoor condition
is DB 47 C and wb 32. How do i calculate the load in KW for selecting the FAHU??
Thank You.
sspeare (Mechanical)
2 Dec 11
11:31
First, you need to demonstrate to the forum that you understand certain thermodynamic
fundamentals - for example:
1)
2)
3)
4)
Do you know the definition of sensible load?

Do you know the definition of latent load?
Do you know what enthalpy is?
Have you used a psychrometric chart?
hexgalaxy (Mechanical) (OP)
2 Dec 11
12:08
Hiya Sspeare,
From my understanding sensible load in terms of hvac is head load ina space that is gained
by various factors such as direct exposure of sun, heat radiated by people, lights and
equipment as such, in terms of thermodynamics it is the heat required to raise the temp of
a body/element or may b water keepings its state constant,
latent load is essentially the humidity load with in the space or heat absorbed by a body
while keeping its temperature constant while its phase changes.
Enthalpy is sum of all internal energies in a system.

and yes i hav used a psychrometric chart.
regards
thank you
Drazen (Mechanical)
2 Dec 11
13:26
than draw your outside air and indoor design conditions in psychro chart and enthalpy
difference will make your cooling capacity needed in the simplest scenario.
cry22 (Mechanical)
18 Dec 11
15:04
Q = 4.5 x CFM x Delta H

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-heating-equations-d_747.html
30 Sep 09 16:34
I am the HVAC designer for my engineering firm, and we frequently come across VAV
systems in medical office buildings that pose a unique problem. Based on heat loads and
standard practices, we supply enough flowrate to each room to cool the space using the
400 CFM per ton rule of thumb. However, based on ASHRAE standards, office spaces
require a minimum of 4 air changes per hour. When we are dealing with a VAV system that
is only capable of supplying 57 degree 50% humidity air, how does one design for the
correct amount of air changes without over cooling the space? Also, how do you handle the
outside air requirements given you can only provide air from the main loop. IS it a safe
assumption to exhaust the amount of O.A. you need and make sure the AHU for the entire
floor is pulling in enough O.A. to cover the difference? Thanks for the help!
Chris W.
operatingeng (Mechanical)
30 Sep 09
21:34
Every VAV system I've come across seems to have the same flaw. Because of the minimum
damper postion in the VAV box certain areas will always be overcooled. Office buildings
move people around all the time, so areas that were designed for ten people may have
only two which just compounds the problem.
I'm only an operating engineer, but every VAV air handler i've come across seems to have
the minimum OA damper sized based on the total amount of air that unit moves.
tys90 (Mechanical)
1 Oct 09
10:54
Where do you get the 4 ACH for offices number from? According to ASHRAE 62.1-2007 an
office room is 5 CFM/person plus 0.06 cfm/sq. ft.
To not over cool spaces you provide hot water or electric reheat on your VAV boxes to bring
space temperature up in the event of an over cool. Or you can use fan powered boxes to
mix return air with primary air to achieve a higher discharge air temperature. There are
examples of control sequences around on the internet.
Third, you set your minimum OA based on your ASHRAE calcs or in the case of a medical
office building we use AIA guidelines. You have to watch your exhaust rates, if you are
starting to become neutral or negative it's time to increase your OA and do energy
recovery on the exhaust side.
Lastly, unless your are in an early design phase we never use rules of thumb for cooling
loads. Always do proper load calculations.
1 Oct 09
12:51
(2) mauricestoker (Mechanical)
The 4 ACH would be typical for office function and is different than OA requirement.
A standard procedure for doing this is given by 62.1-2007. OA should be estimated for
normal (max VAV) and lowest flow. Lowest flow (if you have reheat) is limited by ASHRAE
90.1. ASHRAE has a guideline specifically for outside air intake.
Use of a dedicated minimum OA intake, with static set at minimum flow, would be one way
of assuring minimum OA. Using an IAQ outside air damper would be another.
Operatingeng hit the nail on the head; one day a room will be a housekeeping closet, the
next day it will be an office. Conference rooms always seem to become a large office for
whomever has clout.
sridhar1312 (Mechanical)
11 Nov 09
7:11
Room Air changes within room in an air conditioned space is in the range of 13 to 15 .
Fresh air change shall be 5 cfm /person and 0.06 cfm per square feet or as per ASHRAE
standard depending on the usage of the area.
Wherever VAV is used it is recommended to take care of the additional load due to
occupancy /equipment etc which may vary through the VAV and base fabric load
separately to avoid any disturbed conditions
mauricestoker (Mechanical)
12 Nov 09
8:35
I have to say that I've never seen 13-15 ACH for office space. Please let me know the basis
for that, it's a new one to me.
If you are supplying air at 57*F without reheat and only one or two rooms are getting
overcooled, then you are lucky.
I'd recommend verifying what criteria you are designing for. I think you'll see a large
difference between ASHRAE Handbook, ASHRAE Design Manual for Hospitals and Clinics,
ASHRAE 170, AIA, 62.1, and governmental (DoD, VA) standards, and which edition by year.
If you don't want to own the IAQ requirements, I'd recommend a reheat.
TOMechEng (Mechanical)
22 Dec 09
23:54
As others have noted the best way to prevent overcooling a space is to use some form of
reheat. The issue is obviously that you may be cooling air only to have to heat it up again,
which is not so good for energy efficiency. A way to reduce the amount of reheat required
is to use a supply air temperature reset based on outdoor air temperature(or OA WB if you
monitor it).
The issue of ensuring that you are maintaining your outdoor air rate when the VAV system
is at minimum flow is a tricky one. Depending on your system it may be possible to vary
your outdoor air damper based on the fan speed so that you provide an increased % of OA
at min flow to maintain requirements.

Another way is to seperate your ventilation and cooling/heating system so that the
required ventilation is accurately controlled.
SAK9 (Mechanical)
23 Dec 09
2:13
Choose your supply air temperature such that you are able to achieve the required air
change rates in the space.Also bear in mind your dehumidification needs.
24 Dec 09
11:54
An excellent method of getting a known quantity of OA in a VAV system is to install a

constant volume fan that blows into the AHU RA plenum.
A DOAS will also obviate the problem with pressure changes in a VAV system.
sridhar1312 (Mechanical)
25 Dec 09
6:27
Room air changes will be 13 to 15 for any normal air conditioned space. This will increase
as we go for Class 10000, class 1000 class 100 etc.
Fresh air change shall be based on ASHRAE 5 cfm per person and 0.06 cfm per square feet
of the area, if it is designed for green building we do take additional 30% obn the Fresh air
with damper with actuator to work based on CO2 sensor in the return air or room air
accordingly fresh air is taken as per requirement.
As far as air quantity for a VAV system it is better to cater to the peak air quantity and
minimum air quantity(min opening of damper in VAV) shall be set for minimum load which
may occur. In many jobs we normally take 1.5 times the normal air distribution in that area.
Still the RH problem may be there depending on the variation of fresh air.
28 Dec 09
9:32
sridhar,
I've never designed an office to clean room standards.
RossABQ (Mechanical)
28 Dec 09
9:55
I think the term "room air changes" is being confused with recirculation rate. "Changes" is
used in cleanroom work to be the recirculation rate, but in office HVAC it is often the
ventilation (fresh air) rate.
28 Dec 09
13:32
I'm working on several HVAC projects for medical environment now. OA and ACH are
required for offices. For clean rooms, I think it may depend on whether personnel
protection is needed, or product, or both. Hospitals include clean rooms under USP 797. For
toxic compounding, ACH and OA are the same. For non-toxic, recirc is allowed.
OA requirement and OA damper/ducting depend greatly on unit configuration. For VAV with
air side economizer, OA duct and damper would be sized for total air flow, unless (my
preference)a separate minimum OA and economizer intakes are included. I think reference
to ASHRAE Guideline 16 would be the point of the OP.
For office HVAC, corrected OA calculations should be made, unless it is a single zone
system. If the air path is not considered, which is both OA and RA, then calculations per
62.1-2007 are not being done. Some areas will always receive too much cooling or not
enough, which is why 90.1-2007 addresses reheat limitations on VAV.
The Advanced VAV Design Guide from PIER is a real good source for understanding and
designing VAV for energy efficeincy and IAQ. Link is below:
http://www.energydesignresources.com/Resources/Publications/DesignGuideline
s.aspx
2 Jan 13 16:26
Currently I am in the point of design where I must determine the outside air/ ventilation
requirements for a building by using the 62.1 2010 "ventilation rate procedure." I am a bit
confused about the two terms "ventilation" and "outside air"that are being thrown around
and would appreciate any guidance.
Standard 62.1 lists a method called "ventilation rate procedure." This method calculates
the required outside air needed based on a zone's occupancy and square footage. (I
thought ventilation was just replacing air in a volume regardless if it is outside air or
return air)
I thought there would be another set of requirements aimed specifically towards
ventilation, independent of outside air. I would think ventilation would simply be the
amount of air changes per hour that your supply air (return air plus outside air) can
achieve on a space. I was anticipating a table that would provide such values, but all I see
is an outdoor air requirement method that I described above.
Now to me, finding the required outdoor air amount to be used in a building does not
really tell me Im getting proper ventilation (air changes per hour) into my zones because
the supply air rate is what really does the air changing, and I can only base this supply air
on my cooling load since I have no other standard to look at here. This is the only method
I see, and I am skeptical that there should be more info stating how much supply air is
required to each zone to reach an acceptable air change per hour. I am new at this so I
may be missing a key point. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
DRWeig (Electrical)
2 Jan 13 17:35
Hi Mike,
Welcome to eng-tips.
In my experience, ventilation is always outside air, which is dictated by occupancy and
square footage in each space. Supply air CFM is a function of the heating and/or cooling
load in the space. To my knowledge, there is no standard for supply air per square foot (or
per person) that is independent of outside air. Ventilation = outside air.
Note: I'm a controls and energy-simulation guy, my experience is in making the
ventilation work right and analyzing what somebody else designed to compute energy
use. I'm not a designer. Hang around, there are some very experienced MEs in this forum.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
joeag (Mechanical)
2 Jan 13 19:00
I'm with DRWeig.

I'm still pretty new to this HVAC stuff myself, but as far as I know, there is no other
standard that dictates supply air other than the outside air specified in ASHRAE.
I've been working on a couple projects, and quickly looking over our calculations and
assumptions everything is wholesomely based on your required cooling and heating
loads.
3 Jan 13 8:46
I think you would need to consider specific applications. A wet lab may take 10 air
changes per hour, but the 10 ACH doesn't need to be outside air. Health care facilities
have OA and total ACH well spelled out. Pharmacies and clean rooms will have ACH
typically based on ISO level. Federal agencies typically have their own requirements for
OA and total ACH.
While I know of no one-size fits all, airborne odor control would be a typical area where
OA is not a requirement; public bathrooms would be an example. Outside air is not always
required, return air under the door can be used.
3 Jan 13 9:48
Take another look at 62-2010. The Ventilation Rate Procedure uses Table 6-1 gives People
OUTDOOR Air Rate and Area OUTDOOR Air Rate. If that amount of air doesnt meet your
cooling or heating load (as stated by drweig), or ACH rate requirements (as stated by
urgros), then increase the supply cfm (usually with return air), to get the supply air
needed.
I suggest you re-read 62's fine print when you want to fall asleep at night.
knowledge is power
3 Jan 13 12:02
Thanks everyone for your help. Ugross, are these ACH requirements in 62.1? These are
the kind of requirements Im speaking of. Thanks.
When taking HVAC design classes (some time ago), there were three possible constraints
that determined your supply air. The first was to figure out your cooling load on the zone.
This would be the minnimum supply air rate ( never should it go under the cooling load
supply rate). The second constraint was occupancy (say 15 cfm of supply air per person).
If this "supply air" requirement was greatest, than it was to be used for the supply air rate
instead of the cooling load supply air rate.(this is generally where Im troubled because
this was a requirement (for school, not in the standard) based on supply air, not outside
air, and that's why I was surprised to not see it in the standard 62.1). [The third constraint
was makeup air from exhaust. The supply air would have to increase if your blowing out
more than whats required by the cooling load or cfm/person (this constaint is a bit off
topic since exhaust is independent of this discussion)].

So in summary, Im looking for supply air constraints based on occupancy (like Urgross
pointed out), but also a cfm/people supply air constraint.
Consider this scenario... I have a specific room that requires 1000CFM of outside air
(found by following the "ventilation requirements"). If my air conditioning unit services 10
different rooms, each room having a different outside air requirement, how can this
requirement be met for every room? The supply air rates to each room can be controlled
with actuated dampers, but the outside air is just going to be a fixed percentage of the
supply air regardless, right? So when a specific room requires ventilation, I would think to
look for a supply air constraint.
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!
3 Jan 13 13:21
No, the ACH requirements are not in 62.1. I don't think there is a one-size-fits all. Criteria
is usually based on a specific function or occupancy. Hospitals would be a prime example.
Refer to ASHRAE 170 and you will get recommended ACH for most areas of a hospital.
Even with that, additional criteria goes into specific areas, such as pharmacy. Room ACH
might go up to 40 for toxic compounding based on ISO level requirements. Some areas
the ACH and OA are spelled out based upon the HVAC system being used. As an example,
nursing homes require 6 ACH per ASHRAE and 2 OA ACH. If using a 4-pipe fan coil for
envelope load, the total ACH can be reduced to 4.
The OA fraction calculationsalso change with system configuration. No overall guidance is
known, you have to look at the occupancy and the proposed system.
DRWeig (Electrical)
3 Jan 13 20:17
This portion of your question confuses me:

Quote (Mike1833)
The second constraint was occupancy (say 15 cfm of supply air per person). If this "supply air"
requirement was greatest, than it was to be used for the supply air rate instead of the cooling load
supply air rate.(this is generally where Im troubled because this was a requirement (for school, not
in the standard) based on supply air, not outside air, and that's why I was surprised to not see it in
the standard 62.1)
Are you saying that your space had a requirement of 15 CFM supply air per person, not
15 CFM of outside air per person? If so, what sort of space was it? I'm curious, because 15
CFM per person was the standard outside air quantity for a lot of ordinary occupancies
back when all we had were tables in the standards.
What everyone is getting at is this: For special areas (see urgross's replies), there will
often be set air changes that must be met. For non-special areas, such as an office or
classroom, there is no standard requirement. There is only a standard for ventilation
(outside air).
As for apportioning outside air amongst your zones, you'll have to control the outside air
fraction of the AHU to meet the worst case zone's needs.
Take a look through this thread for some discussion of one way to vary ventilation in a
VAV system: http://eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=326735
Best to you,
Goober Dave
4 Jan 13 11:14
Quote (DRWeig)
Are you saying that your space had a requirement of 15 CFM supply air per person, not 15 CFM of
outside air per person? If so, what sort of space was it? I'm curious, because 15 CFM per person was
the standard outside air quantity for a lot of ordinary occupancies back when all we had were tables
in the standards.
Right. At least that is the way it was formatted in my class. It was a standard office space.
Even when analyzing standard classrooms or offices we used a certain CFM per person of
supply air to make sure it was not higher than the required load. I am going to contact my
old professor to clarify this. I may have interpreted it wrong. I knew it was given as a
supply air constraint but it really never did go over the cooling load requirement
anyways.
If it did, perhaps I would have had to increase the supply air requirement for that zone,
not to 15 cfm/person, but to a higher supply air amount that had the correct percentage
of outside air of 15cfm/person.
Quote (DRWeig)
As for apportioning outside air amongst your zones, you'll have to control the outside air fraction of
the AHU to meet the worst case zone's needs.
Great point. In lieu of this topic, what if the cooling load supply requirement was lower
than the amount of outside air needed (just out of curiosity since Iv'e never encountered
this)? I would think I would first have to predetermine an outside air percentage, then
raise the supply air requirement for that zone to a CFM that contains that outside air
needed. But how can I predetermine an outside air percentage without knowledge of the
new supply air requirement? It seems like this may be an iterative process.
DRWeig (Electrical)
4 Jan 13 12:46
If it's a constant-volume air handler, no problem. The minimum outside air for the AHU
was set at commissioning time, and the supply air to the space remains constant. Thus,
outdoor air is fine at all times as long as the fan is running. The cooling coil simply cycles
(dx) or modulates (chw) to meet the load with the constant air flow, and if the supply air
flow is greater than what is needed even with supply air temperature reset, the reheat
system comes into play.
If it's a VAV air handler, it can be done in several different ways. The one in the thread I
linked above is my favorite. Without demand control for ventilation, the controller needs
to know the air flow to the space and the percent of osa in the air from the air handler. It
will maintain air flow to meet the minimum ventilation rate, no matter the load. Air flow
monitoring at each VAV box is not totally necessary to accomplish this. With a known duct
pressure and VAV box damper position, the percent of maximum supply air flow to the
space can be estimated.
In both cases, if the required osa cfm exceeds the supply cfm for a space, the osa flow
rate is maintained and the supply air is either reheated to maintain comfort or else the
supply air temperature is modulated (within limits).

You might benefit from looking into sequences of operation for AHU and VAV systems that
have already been done. Examples are usually available online from public universities -the specs for jobs to be bid are public. There might be some building automation tutorials
available that cover the topic as well. What you're asking is more of a controls issue than
an equipment design issue.
Again, my humble opinion only. I teach a couple of classes that cover ventilation control
with building automation, so I'm used to covering it from that standpoint.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Drazen (Mechanical)
4 Jan 13 14:40
mike, i believe there is nothing confusing about that, but you need to study basic
knowledge firstly, than you will not have to waste your energy in reinventing the wheel.
ventilation rate is rate of replacement of room air with outside air. period. supply air has
nothing to do with that. relation between supply air and outdoor air does affect all your
design concepts, decisions on system and equipment, but you calculate fresh air and
supply air requirements independently, one per 62.1 or other applicable standard, the
other per thermal load calculations.
==
Drweig, i opened one post some time ago, about how to ensure minimum outdoor air in
different vav setups, but did not reach "one bullet kills all" answer, which is not surprising
as that is not fully covered anywhere. if you size your vav system to ensure minimum
outdoor air rate at minimum supply flow situation, you are still not sure that each and
every zone will receive minimum, for simple reason that not all zones have the same
supply air/outdoor air ratios, and that is what system fan can deliver. if you size your
system based on zone with lowest outdoor/supply air ratio, than your other zones will be
over-ventilated, which poses energy efficiency questions. i believe vav concept itself
never solved that problem fully, and it is only dcv concept that can make more sense in
such setups, in future (until something new would be invented).
Drazen (Mechanical)
oops, i did not realized that you linked to that very post
4 Jan 13 14:42
...
4 Jan 13 15:24
Drazen,
That sounds lika a real good argument for DOAS and delinking ventilation air from
thermal loading.
DRWeig (Electrical)
4 Jan 13 16:20
You're on the money as usual, Drazen. A minimum outside air injection fan helps, but it's
not perfect either.
I love DOAS, urgross! Apparently, though, only the military and the IRS can afford it.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
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jvithayapun (Mechanical)
30 Dec 09
14:51
I have yet to read through everyone else's reply so what I type might either agree or
conflict.
But in VAV systems the box can be equipped with a hot water or electric heating coil to
heat back up the air that has essentially been 'overcooled' due to air changes.
As far as the outside air rate...first you will have to find out what the outside air percentage
is that the unit is providing. Ex. 400 cfm return air mixed with 100 cfm outside air. so you
have 20% outside air. Then you need to determine if the room requires an outside air
change rate (ex patient rooms require 2 outside air changes)
Example:
Exam room
Volume: 1000 ft^3
air change required: 6 air changes per hour
outside air change required: 2 air changes per hour
AHU outside air % = 20%
total heat gain = 850 btuh
EAT=57
required room temp=75
so you will need
AIR CHANGE RATE
(1000 ft^3 * 6 ACH)/60 = 100 CFM
OUTSIDE AIR CHANGE RATE
(1000 FT^3 * 2)/ ( .2 * 60) = 166 CFM
in this case you would need to supply 166 cfm of air to achieve the outside air
requirements (which also satisfies the air change rate requirement). you would need to
heat 166 cfm from your 57F to 75, which is roughly 3652 btuh. But since the room already
gives off 850 btu, you need a coil that would be able to do 2802 btu.
26 May 13 3:32
Hi,
I just want your thought about an issue we are facing now in our design drawing. we are
now in the execution stage that's why this issue is raised.
Issue is: 1. we have VAV boxes without thermostat in the drawings. I insisted to contractor
that each VAV box should have its own thermostat to control it.am i right?
2. we have multiple VAV boxes( 3 units) in 1 Room, our design drawing states only 1
thermostat. However, I insisted to have thermostat in each one of the VAV boxes.is it
right?
3. we have also CAV boxes in the return ducts which do not have thermostat. I assume that
there should also be thermostat even in return ducts.is it right?
I would appreciate your replies.thanks.
26 May 13
9:14
Thermostats are not required for every VAV unit is they all serve the same thermal zone.
You should talk to the original Engineer who designed this system rather than guessing.
DRWeig (Electrical)
26 May 13
11:53
Do what Willard3 said. Then, while you're talking to the original Engineer, ask him to
explain the purpose of the CAV boxes in the return ducts.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
BronYrAur (Mechanical)
15 Jul 13
17:06
dux77,
I am just now seeing your post. Did you get it resolved? I agree with Willard3 that you only
need 1 thermostat per thermal zone, especially if it's an enclosed room. If you had multiple
thermostats, they would be set at the same temperature anyway in an enclosed room.
What happened with the CAV boxes on the return? I have never seen such a thing other
than on a laboratory or some other critical space where the supply and return must be
closely and constantly maintained. It doesn't make sense in my mind to have variable
supply and constant return.
please let us know what happened.
trashcanman (Mechanical)
16 Jul 13
13:38
How do you have constant return air volume if the supply air volume varies???
21 May 04 22:33
As mentioned in another thread, I too need the "Idiot's Guide to HVAC" as this is not my
discipline. I am an instrumentation and controls engineer trying to understand the impact
of a client changee on work by those invoved HVAC. I am at a fabrication yard where
English is not the first language so questions here are poorly discussed. I am beginning
with the changes that affect controls. Some require more dampers to permit leaving the
air-handler operating while isolating areas. So, let me start with questions specific to
dampers. Non return dampers appear to work like a check valve. With the fan running, the
velocity lifts the louvers but they close by gravity when the fan stops. What significant
details should I know about other type dampers. We have the following types:
Fire damper and combination shutoff
shutoff
pressure control
constant volume
balancing
non return
wathertight shutoff
weather tight shutoff
Thanks in advance.
John
imok2 (Mechanical)
22 May 04
20:00
Here are some types of dampers

Dampers-Automatic or Manual:
Adjustable metal plates installed inside of a duct to restrict, control volume, balance, or bypass air, as required in an air conditioning system.
Fire Dampers
A normally open damper installed in an air distribution system, designed to close
automatically upon the detection of heat, to interrupt migratory air flow, and to restrict the
passage of flame. The device has been tested in accordance with a standard for safety by
a recognized testing laboratory and is identified by a label, affidavit or listing acceptable to
the authority having jurisdiction. (Unless the conditions of approval indicate so they are not
rated for closing against moving air streams or for withstanding pressure differentials.) A
combination of fire and smoke damper must meet the requirements of both.
A smoke damper is a device to resist the passage of smoke which:
a. Is arranged to operate automatically and
b. Is controlled by a smoke detector, and
c. May be but is not necessarily required to be positioned manually from a remote
command station.
A smoke damper may be a fire damper or a damper serving other functions, if its location
lends itself to the multiple functions. A combination fire and smoke damper shall meet the
requirements of both.
Ceiling Dampers
A specialized form of a heat stop installed in the air distribution portion of a fire-rated floorceiling or roof ceiling assembly; the sole purpose of which is to help maintain the fire
endurance rating of the assembly.
Damper, louver
A damper made-up of several vanes operated by gravity or motor control. This type of
damper is generally used to control volume of outside air intake or exhaust to the
atmosphere.
Damper, Splitter
A damper used to change air flow from one duct to another.
Mixing Dampers
Dampers used to mix both heating and cooling supply air at point of discharge; as in a
room
friartuck (Mechanical)
4 Jun 04
18:33
From a control perspective there are two type of damper, parallel bladed and Opposed
bladed.
Opposed bladed dampers are generally more aerodynamic and used for balancing the flow.
Parallel bladed give better control characteristics, i.e. they give a more proportional action.
Of course there are many uses for dampers as already expertly answered.
Drapes
paulkeating (Mechanical)
5 Jun 04 9:56
And here in Australia, we have bush damper ..... which is a traditional bread ......
Nothing to do with engineering but, hey, knowledge is knowledge!!
HVAC68 (Mechanical)
5 Jun 04
12:43
Well, you can also add the blast resistant damper which is used in outside air intake and
foul/exhaust air extract openings in blast resistant buildings.
HVAC68
HVAC68
8 Jun 04
14:09
What you refer to in your post as a 'non-return' damper is also known as a barometric
damper, or backdraft damper. They are used as 'check valves' for fans. Barometric
dampers are also used for gravity relief of air from a space as well.
boonng (Mechanical)
2 Oct 04 0:33
May I know how does a combination fire/smoke damper works? As I know, combination
fire/smoke damper is coupled with a fusible link and an actuator. If there is fire, the fusible
link will fuse off and the damper blade will be closed by means of tensioned spring. But,
can the actuator open up the damper blade again if if receives a signal from smoke
detector? The actuator has to overcome the spring force to open up the blade, is it
possible? If not, how do the fusible link and actuator work together?
Thank you.

Mike 1833

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Mike1833 (Mechanical) (OP)

Mike1833 (Mechanical) (OP)

This portion of your question confuses me:

Mike1833 (Mechanical) (OP)

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

Hello, Im new in this forum and have a question.

For the outside air:

You should probably hire a Mechanical Engineer to do this as he is familiar with it

Take a look at this site:

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

Thank you all of you for your help

correct me if I am wrong but I am assumming you meant Volume flow instead of

ACH = (CFM X 60 minutes)/(room volume in cubic feet)

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

In my climate, ie, 42 deg latitude and 73 deg longitude, in a frame-built, insulated

You should get a copy of ASHRAE Fundamentals Volume(American Society of

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

I am going to take a stab at this.

ACH (Air change per hour) = 10

So 9,000 cfm is required to exhaust the room 10 times per hour.

Now to determine the load on the cooling coil:

Summing all the loads:

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

Does that help?

pablo2410 (Mechanical) (OP)

ok, here is the problem

Air change method

CFM = 15 x 35,500 / 60 = 8,875 cfm (lets say 9000 for simplicity)

1. For 100% outside air:

Hope that clears up some questions you may have. GL

a rule of thumb ..... 150 cfm/ton for a preliminary sizing load

final psych chart analysis on DB/meanWB per ashrae geographic data

don't forget fan heat gain

BTUH = 4.5 x cfm x Delta H

My design conditions are 89db/73wb Enthalpy = 36.5

or 70dF 50% Humidity Enthalpy = 26.3

Btuh= cfm x 4.5 x 10

With these design conditions, I would look at incorporating a Heat Recovery

The difference in your load calculation is HUGE.

A few things you need to know first about locker rooms.

Locker rooms should always be kept slightly negative.

I am designing the HVAC system of a storage/warehouse in laredo, Tx, which is supposed

ssn61 (Mechanical) (OP)

ssn61 (Mechanical) (OP)

requirement or a design preference?

Total system = 1000 cfm at 37.5% OA.

zone and west zone.

There are two ways to go about this:

I fully second cry22 's views.

machine room when a 5-ton will do. Check tose calcs.

fighting each other for the air.

I am working on the design of a Constant volume, DX a/c system (cooling only)for a

aphou (Mechanical) (OP)

Some people suggest that I should:

Have you consider Ventilation Displacement system yet?

What's a ventilation desplacement system?

to make sense to me.

I am sorry, Perhaps not agree with all above explanation.

"Iteration" means trial and error method.

did the reiterative process produce a result?

Lets keep it simple, your application is not rocket science

Thank you in advance

The "bin" calculation is a collection of averages of averages of standard conditions