Escolar Documentos
Profissional Documentos
Cultura Documentos
Author(s): Yve-Alain Bois, Denis Hollier, Rosalind Krauss and Hubert Damisch
Source: October, Vol. 85 (Summer, 1998), pp. 3-17
Published by: The MIT Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/779179
Accessed: 31-03-2015 18:00 UTC
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A ConversationwithHubertDamisch*
of
Denis Hollier:How would you defineyourself?Historian of art?Anti-historian
art?Theoristof art?Philosopherof art?How would you defineyour"field"?
HubertDamisch:It's a field with three poles, and here my early trainingwith
Merleau-Pontyplayed a decisive part: the question of the unconscious; the
question of history(whichI would put in thirdplace); and somethingI don't
knowwhetherto call formor structure.I guess I'd say,usingWittgenstein's
definition:formas the possibilityof structure.Whyart? Because I thought
thatartwould be the medium throughwhichI could simultaneously
connect
these threepoles.
When I was studyingwithMerleau-Ponty,
I wanted to workon Goya in
relation to somethingI called "the perception of history."This interested
Merleau-Ponty
verymuch.It was the idea thattherewas a perceptionofhistory
that connects to darkness in the sense in which you find this in Lucien
noire."It was the idea that in the
Febvre,or initiallyin Michelet: "l'histoire
midst of a history that was narrative, discursive, something suddenly
occurred in the workof Goya and especiallyin the "Black Paintings"of the
Quinta del Sordo: a kindofsilence.It wouldbe, then,a matternot ofnarrating
historybut of seeing it. What would a phenomenologyof the perceptionof
historybe? You have to rememberthatwe werejust emergingfromthe war.
It was extremelyimportantto me, the idea that I had perceived history.
Duringthewaras a childand adolescentthiswas somethingI saw.I remember
hearing the firstnews about the war announced on the radio; but I didn't
reallybelieve it until I saw the facts actuallywrittenon the posters. In the
same way,I was profoundlymarked by one of the firstexamples of what I
experienced as graphic design as such: the eagle and the swastikaon the
deportationnotices.
Bois:But how did you pass fromMerleau-Pontyto structuralism
Yve-Alain
and what
role did Francastelplaythere?
This conversationtook place onJanuary11, 1998.
OCTOBER 85, Summer
Institute
1998,pp. 3-17. ? 1998 October
Magazine,Ltd.and Massachusetts
ofTechnology.
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OCTOBER
AfterLevy-Bruhl's
death, his librarywas givento the Mus6e de l'Homme.
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A ConversationwithHubertDamisch
Damisch: If I invoke the notion of origin in the title of The Origin of Perspective
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OCTOBER
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A ConversationwithHubertDamisch
I understandabout structuralism
is based preciselyon the
Krauss:But everything
coordinates of the grid. For example, the relationshipbetween metaphor
the relationshipbetween substitutionand contiguity--all
and metonymy,
have to do withthe coordinatesmapped bya grid.
Damisch:For me structuralismis not to be found in a binarymodel but in the
Levi-Straussianmodel, which is three-dimensional.It's the model fromthe
ElementaryStructureof Kinship in which relationships cannot be thought in
two dimensions.In workingon thisbook Levi-Straussconstructedlittlecardboard models that are still in his studythroughwhich he thoughtabout
kinshiprelationships-about how women circulated,forexample. You can't
map this two-dimensionally,
you need three coordinates.You can't thinkit
withouta coordinatethatis the equivalentof time.
As forthe grid itself,it's a formthatopens the possibilityof defininga
structure:either a formalstructurein which one adds color, for example,
therebyproducingmultipleelements thatcan enterinto relationwitheach
other;or a supporton whichto play,withinwhichthe game thattakesplace
on the grid willbecome somethinglike a structure.In its Renaissance definition, perspective is-and this is what is important for me-first and
foremostthe constructionof a stage on which a narrativetakes place (the
istoriain Alberti'ssense); and because thisnarrativecan add an unconscious
dimension,perspectiveplayson those multiplepoles thatinterestme.
Hollier:To open up a parenthesis,the otherdayI was struckto finda textin which
Barthes speaks of the churches depicted by Sanredam in a manner that is
close to the wayyou speak of the Urbino perspectives.And I
fundamentally
wonderedabout the wayyou use the word stage-the constructionof a stage
that is anterior to the appearance of a particular narrative.During that
period-when Bartheswrotehis text-there was, precisely,a widespreadfascination with these moments of narrative suspension, with a kind of
thresholdof narrative,as in the nouveauroman,etc.
Damisch: Yes. One chapter of The Origin of Perspectiveis called "The Suspended
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OCTOBER
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withHubertDamisch
A Conversation
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10
OCTOBER
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withHubertDamisch
A Conversation
11
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OCTOBER
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A Conversation
withHubertDamisch
13
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14
OCTOBER
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A Conversation
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15
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16
OCTOBER
onto the future.I have the impressionthat thereare two models of history
thatare incompatiblehere: the one thatwe could call the historyof transformationand the one in a sense thathas to be called historyat a dead end.
Damisch:I'm not speaking of a historyat a dead end; but we are completely
trapped. Marxism,as Derrida says,has become a specter that haunts our
nightsand our days.As a matterof fact,we are now livinga certainMarxism
become real. We livein a worldin whichthe economic subsumeseverything.
Logic now is simplyeconomics. How can we stillreferto "late" capitalismas
if capitalismwere approachingits end? We live in a momentof suspension.
Is it the end of somethingor the beginningof somethingelse?
Bois:We've been talkingabout rupturealong withthe longuedurie:perspectiveis
not over; it continues in another form.Could you speak more about your
relation to anthropologywhich you mentioned at the beginning?Because
what has always struckme about your work is its strong anthropological
dimension,since the idea of the longuedureein yourworkhas alwaysseemed
linkedto thisanthropologicalimpulse.
Damisch:In the 1950s whatwas strikingabout anthropologywas its preoccupation
with societies supposedly withouthistory.Levi-Straussresponded to this
problem by drawingthe differencebetweenso-called hot societiesand cold
ones, societies that developed veryrapidly or societies that evolved very
slowly.But it was also a matterthat these societies didn't thinkin termsof
history.It wasn'tjustthattheydidn'tevolve.As MarcAuge says,anthropology
has to deal with the issue of the other. The question that occupies me
enormouslyis one-typically Lacanian-that asks what type of truthone
strivesfor in each domain of work.In anthropologywe strivefora kind of
truthrelatedto the issue of the "other,"whichof course isn'ta disinterested
truth.If I ask the question of alterityit is because it concerns me in my
being-as-subject.The passage to arthas somethingof the same thing.There
is an alterityin artthatconcernsme in the same way.
Krauss:Well,to bucklethe buckle,you said at the beginningthatdoing contextualist
history,a historywhere you would have to tryto imagine yourselfin the
shoes of historicalcharacters,is not interestingto you. But this notion of
ethnographyis one preciselyof imaginingyourselfin some sortof intimate
connectionto people who are absolutelyother.So youwould succeed spatially
whereyou sayit is impossibleto do so in a temporaldimension.
Damisch:Relating to the past as well as to distance is alwaysa matterof alterity
(times as well as spaces are different)and a matterof identity(the past, the
distance as such, being part of our presentculture).The problemis how to
deal both with alterityand identity(or continuity)simultaneously.Social
anthropology, in its classical days, implied the possibility of dialogue
betweenthe anthropologistand his informers.As faras the artof the past is
concerned, this is more of a monologue: the workskeep silent. I repeat:
what mattersto me is less how to make the work of art "speak" (as Aby
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A Conversation
withHubertDamisch
17
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