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nnLauraStolerInterviewedbyE.ValentineDaniel
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ValentineDaniel(VD):AmongthethingsIfindmostintriguinginyourwork,with
exceptionofyourfirstbook[CapitalismandConfrontationinSumatrasPlantation
lt,18701979],arethepoetictitlesofyourbooks,andevenofyouressays:Race
dtheEducationofDesire:FoucaultsHistoryofSexualityandtheColonialOrderof
ngs,HauntedbyEmpire:GeographiesofIntimacyinNorthAmericanHistory,
ongtheArchivalGrain:EpistemicAnxietiesandColonialCommonSense,Habits
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Volume24,Number3
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aColonialHeart.Eachoneenticeslikeapromissorynotepledgingtosharewith
readeraworkofpassionateintelligence.Whatpartdoyourtitlesplayinthe
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ImaginingtheMarket:AVisualHistor
nLauraStoler(AS):Thankyouforevennoticinghowmuchtitlesmattertome,
NickyMarsh,PaulCrosthwaite
PeterKnight
l.AtitleisnotanaffirmationofwhatisbutofwhatIwantsomethingtobe.Itsnot
WhyIOccupy
descriptionofafaitaccompli.Sometimesitsclosertoasensibility,ahand
NicholasMirzoeff
etchedtoareader.Thehopeisthatthecontentandformwillmeasureup.
metimesthefigurative,thepoliticalproject,andtheprosaicconverge.Titlesare
allengestomyself,visionsIhopetoshareofthingsImayfailtoattain.Atitleispart
ique,partconversation.RaceandtheEducationofDesirewaspartcommenton
tonioGramscisdefinitionofstateprojectsastheeducationofconsent.Alongthe
chivalGrainwasaresponsetoWalterBenjaminandtoliteralistreadingsofhis
essingcalltoreadhistoryagainstthegrain.CapitalismandConfrontationwas
lesunfortunatesubstitutionforwhatItitledIntheCompanysShadow:The
EmperorsRiver:PhilippScholz
RittermannalongChinasGrand
Canal
CarolMcCuskerandPhilippScholz
Rittermann
SpaceandPoliticalPedagogyatthe
GardensofVersailles
ChandraMukerji
liticsofLaborControlinNorthSumatra,anallusiontolivingunderthepaleofthe
ntations,withinahorizonblottedbyinterminablerowsofrubbertrees,andto
ngsubsumed,asKarlMarxmighthaveputit,byanestateeconomy.That
adowwascastwhereveryouturnedinsquattervillages,prostitute
campmentsonestateperipheries,orhighpricedstoresonplantationgrounds.
IntheSumatrabook,Marx,broadlyconceived,seemedtobeyourguidinglight.
dyetthereisapartingofways:Marxwasateleologistyouturnedoutotherwise.
rxsnarrativesunfoldedinacertaindirection,fromdiagnosistoredemption.In
urbookthereisratheranorder(ordisorder)ofthings.Wasthisaconscious
oicetowritethebookinthismannerorsomethingyouwerecompelledtodoby
realitiesthatconfrontedyouinthefield?
IwasdrawntoNorthSumatraasamodernvortexofhighgearcapitalismbut
sstruckbyatopographyofrelations,things,practices,andvocabulariesthat
emedcolonialthroughandthrough.IhadexpectedsomeversionofJavas
ensivericegrowingvillages,withpeopledoingestatewageworkasawayof
tingby.IseizedonSidneyMintzstermareconstitutedpeasantryatthetailend
writingthedissertation.Butasitturnsout,thatispreciselywhattheywerenot.
documentintheDutchcolonialarchivesonlaborpolicystoppedmeshortbecause
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AnnLauraStolerInterviewedbyE.ValentineDanielinVolume24,Number3PublicCulture
eemedtocapture,betterthananythingelseIhadseenorread,something
biguousandstrategicatplay.Itwasatermusedinthe1920sbyaDutchofficial
scribinghisvisionandstrategyforrecruitingJavanesetotheplantationsand
epingthemthereitwas,asheputit,tocreateasemblanceofpeasantvillage
fortheseworkers,nottheactualpossibilityoflivingofftheirownlandor
intainingthoserelationshipsthatcouldreallybeindependentandbeyondthe
adowoftheestates.
Areyousayingthatyousawinthiscolonialvisionsignsofanunsettlingorderof
Yes.AndItriedtounderstandwhatittooktorenderthoseconditionsaschosen
herthanenforced.
SothestrategicambiguitiesyouwitnessedinSumatrainthe1980swerethe
onialvestigesoftheunresolvedparadoxofenforcedchoices.Itisnowonder
nthatifoneweretohavereadthatbookwithteleologicalexpectationsas
medidoneisboundtobedisappointed.
Intheend,thebookisapeculiartakeonthecontemporarybecauseitspends
muchmoretimefoldingbackonthemakingratherthanthebeingofthose
rsonsandthatplace.AsIhaddonefouryearsearlierinJava,Icountedeverything
ouldgetmyhandson.Notonlydidthesefactsnotmeshwithpeopleslivesthey
emedsuperfluous,becausemuchofwhatwashappening,onandaroundthe
gesoftheestates,hadtodowithpreciselywhatcouldnotbecounted,withwhat
smadeuncountable:peoplegleaningandfeedingoffofwhattheysawastheir
efromtheplantations.Suhartosmilitarybackerswererakinginprofitsfromprivate
atesofficiallyownedbyothers,oftenwithChinesenames.Itwasasystem,from
tobottom,thatthrivedonwhatwasoffthebookswhatcouldntandwouldntbe
Sowastheplantersownlivedinworldoffscriptaswell?
Ibeganbyassumingastrategicallyreasonedsystem.ThemoreIunderstood
wmuchplantersfearsmotivatedtheiractions,thelessconvincedIbecame.The
ingbeforeIstartedteachingatMichigan[in1989],Nicholas(Dirks)hadaskedme
espondtoMichaelTaussigsessayCultureofTerrorSpaceofDeath:Roger
sementsPutumayoReportandtheExplanationofTortureforaworkshopon
onialismandculture.Ineverpublishedthetext,butitsquerystayedwithme:how
esoneunderstandthevastlydifferenteffectsthatfearandthethreatofviolence
ate?Youhavetobeabletoaccountfortherangeofintensitiesofterrorproduced
thedifferenceamongkillinganelephant,threateningaworker,mutilatingafamily,
dmassacringapopulation.TheseweretheinterpellatingspacesIsoughtto
antersannualreportsfromthe1920sand1930sreferredtosomethingthatdidnt
withwhatIthoughtIknew:awhiteproletariatthreateningtheplanter
sociationwithchantage.Blackmail?Awhiteproletariat?Howpoorlywerethey
sitionedtobeconsideredanoppositionalclass?Colonialhistoryhadrarely
eredfarfrompatandpredictableplots.Therewerethe(bad)colonizersandthe
ood)colonized.Orviceversa.Ispentmuchofthenexttwentyyearsattendingto
atmadethosecategoriesselfevident,tohowtheyworked.Didfearofawhite
oletariatexpressanactualthreatortheprecarityofasystemnotconfidentinitself?
artedbyfocusingonwhatcolonialauthoritiessawastheworrisomeedgesofa
ializedsystem,onlytofindthatasmuchconcertedworkoccurredatitscenter,
ngtorenderwhiteandEuropeanreadilyavailabletocommonsense.
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AnnLauraStolerInterviewedbyE.ValentineDanielinVolume24,Number3PublicCulture
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