What is the General Understanding of the AS9100 FAI Requirements_ Do You Have to Create FAIs for Every Part_Is There a Grandfather Clause for Parts That Have Been Manufactured for Years_How Far Back_ _ LinkedIn

6/5/2014 What is the general understanding of the AS9100 FAI requirements?
Do you have to create FAIs for every part?Is there a grandfather clause for parts that have been manufactured for years?How far back? | Linke
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What is the general understanding of the AS9100 FAI

requirements? Do you have to create FAIs for every part?Is there
a grandfather clause for parts that have been manufactured for
years?How far back?
Member
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Humberto Amaro
Account Manager at Tyco Electronics
Any advise is welcome.
Like Comment (42) Follow Reply Privately 9 months ago

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Larry Caracciolo
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Jack Fletcher
Principal at Ronin Consultancy
Jack
Getting Started
9100 itself does not mandate FAIs. They must be specified by the customer. While they are
intended for new produ tion or after a break in production, you will need to discuss this with new
customers for parts already in production.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 9 months ago
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6/5/2014 What is the general understanding of the AS9100 FAI requirements? Do you have to create FAIs for every part?Is there a grandfather clause for parts that have been manufactured for years?How far back? | Linke
Jim Dent, LSSBB, DTM

Quality and Operational Excellence Professional in AZ
Jim
FAI's are also often required if the manufacturing location or machinery to manufacture the parts
change. When a part revision is implemented, many companies require a "delta-FAI" to validate
the features impacted by the revision are in control.
AS9102 covers the general requirements of FAI; however, some customer companies may have
specific requirements which must be flowed down the supply chain.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 9 months ago
Tyler M., Elizabeth G. like this
Philip Scalise
Quality System Administration and Development
Philip
First Article Inspections (FAI's) are not a requirement of AS9100. While AS9102 does speaks to
the establishment and requirements for performing and documenting FAI's, the procedure itself
applies to assemblies, sub-assemblies and detail parts such as castings and forgings. AS9102
prohibits the use of prototype parts providing that normal processes are in fact utilized for parts
subject to FAI's. FAI's are not considered completed until corrective action results in the closing
of non-conformance detected in inspection. For details such as how long the FAIR is valid and
definitions of grandfathered parts, you would need to consult your purchaser order for product
provisional requirements specifically called out in purchasing notes. It matters of such gravity I
make it a rule to do so given that your customer is the ultimate arbitrator in such matters.
Jo Ann Littlefield
Sr. Quality Engineer at K&L Microwave
Jack and Philip - how then do you interpret para 7.5.1.1?
Jo Ann

Elizabeth G., William F. like this
William Flower (1000+)

Quality Manager/Auditor/Specialist/SME 17025 test accreditation, ISO 9001,
Mil/Aero/Commercial, systems integration
William
Paragraph 7.5.1.1 describes a Production Process Verification as a "shall", and then says in a
NOTE that "This activity is often referred to as a first article inspection."
Latest Activity
lokesh narasimhaiah commented on
a discussion in AS91XX Series - Tips
and Advice. Hi , Do we require partial
FAIR as per AS9102, if company
changes its name.
41m ago
Jack Fletcher commented on a

discussion in AS91XX Series - Tips
and Advice. Manuel L. sorry
for the inconvenience,
someone could tell me if
there is any standard
sampling AS9100-c table or military
rule?
2h ago
Manuel Loredo started a discussion in

AS91XX Series - Tips and Advice. sorry
for the inconvenience, someone could
tell me if there is any standard
sampling AS9100-c table or military
rule?
2h ago
See all activity
I notice that the phrase "first article inspection" is 1.) included only in a NOTE, and 2.) in lower
case. This suggests to me that the clause, by its own merits, is not requiring an FAI flow-down to
2/15
9102, but rather a simpler, as stated, "Production Process Verification."

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I'm eager to hear the finer points on how to relate this to Humberto's question.
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Elizabeth Goldberg
Freelancer of Quality solution & electronic production process solution .
Jo Ann Littlefield
Elizabeth
You absolutely right . AS9001 C Section 7.5.1.1 (Production Process Verification) of the standard
does require testing of a production part, which is basically the same as FAI.
This SAE Aerospace Standard establishes documentation requirements for the First Article
Inspection (FAI).
The purpose of the First Article Inspection is to provide objective evidence that all engineering
design and specification requirements are properly understood, accounted for, verified, and
documented. The purpose of this standard is to provide a consistent documentation requirement
for aerospace components First Article Inspection.
Ruth G. O., William F. like this

William
I believe that Humberto is asking for a general understanding of how far an FAI can go when
nothing has changed about the process, location, technician, and anything else that may affect
the characteristics of the original FAI.
I see the advice given several times over to "ask the customer." However.. a general
understanding may be helpful prior to approaching the customer, who may think adversely if the
suggested interval is too long or too short. I would like to know that one myself. What have you
seen used as a "maximum" interval?
I believe we can separate this from discussing whether we apply it as a PPV or an FAI.. whatever
it is we do, how long is it normally extended in actual use?
It would be resourceful to have that in our back pocket, so we can advise our customer "a good
rule of thumb is XX months, but it's really up to you..".
3/15
Philip Scalise
Philip
Jo Ann I can only provide you my interpretation of 7.5.1.1, which is the production process
verification. This is considered the same as first article inspection (FAIR) and therefor I would
simply default to that which I have already stated stressing the importance of the customer
purchase order and design review functions for further clearifications.
Humberto Amaro
Humberto
To clarify my "general understanding" question: Is the FAI a new requirement placed on suppliers?
Is the AS9100 asking for a specific format for something that already existed and in essence
asking to generate a new standard document to put data that may already be in existence but
every company would have it in its own format? If you ask for my opinion is redundant because in
order to be spec'd in the aerospace industry all these steps have taken place in one or other
format and now is just a paperwork exercise, it makes the AS9100 auditor life easier but it
consumes supplier resources.
William F. likes this

William
For my part, Humberto, I've done quite a few surveillance audits for a client who wanted their own
customized look at their suppliers who have been freshly registered to 9100C.
All of them used the basic 9102 documentation format for their FAI process. However, the
intervals, criteria, and triggers were appropriately designed for the products and processes
involved.
I've seen a FAI used as the final step of a tooling dept's output, using an actual part from the
currently-running production line. If the FAI conforms, that FAI becomes the FAI for the new batch,
which starts immediately. That way, production doesn't stop while new tooling is being conformed.
In a critical-path line of thinking, that saves a lot of resources.
4/15
Philip Scalise
Philip
Humberto, First article inspection reports (FAIR) are not new and certainly not unique to the
aerospace industry. Their existence is not the result of any aerospace standard as we currently
know them. To be perfectly honest some of the best examples of first article inspection you will
find come from the automotive industry. Further to this, I have seen them documented in so many
different formats one would be hard pressed to conclude any documented standard ever existed
for their development or presentation. Many companies not just AS companies, specifically define
the conditions under which they expect them to be performed and re-performed. For anyone to
suggest that reviewing your customers purchase order or design specification for conditional
requirements and contractual obligation is not a good idea, well I would simply consider that in
itself, very bad advice!
Victor Cook
Quality Management Auditor at AC FIRST LLC
Victor
The organization shall use a representative item from the first production run of a new part or
assembly to verify that the production processes, production documentation and tooling are
capable of producing parts and assemblies that meet requirements. So, you only have to take a
sample of the items being produced from the first run.
I personally think you should take a sample from not just the first run, but at random runs as well,
not just when changes occur.
I use to find non conformance within the production run that cause a stoppage, engineering
evaluation and disposition. If it was a supplying sub-contractor's fault, the correction of the non
conformance had to be flowed back to them as well. This caused a recall of all subsequent items
and a dispositioned fix of all items prior to the non conformance in the field.
This can happen for parts that have been manufacturing for years as well, .i.e. the process varied
out of control before it was caught.
Philip S. likes this
Snyder Rivera
Director of Operations / Chief Consultant at Success Enterprise Management Consulting
Co., Ltd.
Snyder
@Humberto,
5/15
7.5.1.1 says, "The organization shall use a representative item from the first production run of a
new part or assembly to verify that the production processes, production documentation and
tooling are capable of producing parts and assemblies that meet requirements. This process shall
be repeated when changes occur that invalidate the original results (e.g., engineering changes,
manufacturing process changes, tooling changes)."
This does not mean you do a first article as how AS9102 requires. It is up to your organization
how to meet this requirement of the standard. As an example, if your company's common
practice is to always do a "First Piece Run" to validate equipment and tooling setup for a new
part, or at beginning of each shift or next day production startup, then that method is fully
acceptable because this method is validating the setup, equipment operation, can still produce
the part according to drawing, process instructions, procedures, etc.
If you have changed the process, e.g., tooling, speeds, fixtures, NC program, procedures, work
instructions and/or drawing requirements, then the above method is still acceptable as long as
you have objective evidence of the validation and verification results.
Some organizations I audit have chosen to adopt AS9102 as their common practice to meet
clause 7.5.1.1 because they wanted a production process verification method to be as stringent to
AS9102 and not have to create their own methodology.
Other organizations have benchmarked portions of AS9102 and created documentation tailored for
their own specific use, but not AS9102 in full detail.
However, if you have a customer requirement to do an FAI, then it is based on the specified
criteria of the customer.
Jo Ann L., Philip S. and 2 others like this
Jo Ann Littlefield
Sr. Quality Engineer at K&L Microwave
Jo Ann
Re: Phillip's comment on FAI reports in the automotive industry. In fact, it is the Society of
Automotive Engineers that publishes the AS9100 series of documents. Of course there is a
healthy dose of content from the large aerospace contractors.
Philip S. likes this
MURALI BADRI
Senior Manager -Quality at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
I have seen a few customers insisting on a FAI if there is lapse in production for 2 years , but
6/15
MURALI
again this is customer dependent and hence AS 9100 is silent on this requirement.
Snyder Rivera
Co., Ltd.
Snyder
If you have not produced a part in 6 months, 1 or more years, it is better to be safe than sorry by
doing FAI or First Piece Inspection or similar production process verification to re-validate your
process for the part or assembly because it is a new production run for the same part, but you
want to make sure your process can still be capable of producing the part or assembly to the
specified requirements.
However, if you have new operator or an existing operator who has never produced the part, then
you need to do production process verification to validate the process is being done to defined
requirements and the operator understands and is able to interpret the requirements. Plus, since
a human resource is part of the process, assigning the job to a person that has had no
experience doing the product is the same as having made a change to the process because one
component (human resource) of the process has changed which affects consistency in the
process.
William F., Philip S. like this
Humberto Amaro
Humberto
Let me expand on my original question: Is it a requirement of AS9100 to have an FAI if it is the

first time a customer places an order for a part number, even if the part number has been
continuously produced for other customers? In other words, if I am a customer and order a part
that I have never ordered before (but it has been manufactured continously for years) I would
request an FAI from my supplier and claim that per the AS9100 is a requirement because my
auditor is saying it is.
Philip Scalise
Philip
Humberto Ask your auditor (the auditor who is saying a first article inspection is required) to show
you specifically where it is written that you need to do a first article and most importantly, against
who's design drawing it is to be done? Different drawings have different critical features, nominal
values, upper and lower specification limits, material specification and revision level. If a first
7/15
article inspection report is required by your customer, it will be on the PO I assure you! SHOW
ME is always the question. Talk is cheap.
Snyder Rivera, MURALI BADRI like this
Jack Fletcher
Jack
A "politically correct" way to ask might be..... " I want to make sure that I adequately address the
requirements of 9100 in my response. Would you cite the specific requirements for me?"
Snyder Rivera, Lena E. like this
Elizabeth Goldberg
Elizabeth
"7.5.1.1 Production Process Verification The organization shall use a representative item from the
first production run of a new part or assembly to verify that the production processes, production
documentation and tooling are capable of producing parts and assemblies that meet
requirements. This process shall be repeated when changes occur that invalidate the original
results, engineering changes, manufacturing process changes, tooling changes. This activity is
often referred to as first article inspection."
Jack Fletcher
" of a new part or assembly...."
Jack

Elizabeth G., Philip S. and 1 other like this
Snyder Rivera
Co., Ltd.
Snyder
AS9100 does not require FAI and if an auditor toldyou FAI is required per AS9100. Then he is way
off base and does not know AS9100. FAI has to be contractually flowed down to a supplier and
must specify the method or requirement by which the FAI is to be carried out, e.g., AS9102 or
FAI criteria defined by the customer.
If you receive an NCR for a CB auditor, then I highly recommend you dispute via formal appeals
8/15
process with the CB, because the auditor and CB must show you where in AS9100 is the
applicable clause that clearly mandates an FAI.
If you do not get satisfactory resolution, your next step is to contact IAQG.
Philip Scalise
Philip
Hi Snyder, there are some people in this group (more than one) who continue to contend we are
wrong on this point, one has (as recently as 7 hours ago) doubled down on a incorrect response
to this question which clearly asks about AS9100 and NOT AS9102. If one cant understand a
balloon comment on a blog what chance do they have of properly interpreting the standards?
Snyder Rivera
Co., Ltd.
Snyder
Hi Phil, hopefully I am not one of the ones you are referring to.
I agree on your comment and it is obvious there are many that have interpreted the questions as
well as AS9100.
Granted, many of the proposed suggestions are good and make for good business practice.
However, you and I (and the few) know FAI is not required per AS9100 and the "NOTE" that says,
"This activity is often referred to as first article inspection." This statement in the "NOTE" does not
imply or make FAI a requirement. It is only a suggested guidance or clarification of a requirement,
but not intended to be interpreted as a requirement.
It is up to the organization to determine how they meet 7.5.1.1 or if they so choose to establish
an FAI process as part of compliance to 7.5.1.1 or in addition to, and as further contractually
required and defined by their customer.
William F., Philip S. like this
Victor Cook
Quality Management Auditor at AC FIRST LLC
"This activity is often referred to as first article inspection." So, is "THIS" activity a requirement or
9/15
Victor
just a suggestion?
Walter Dimmick
Quality Engineer at Firth Rixson Forgings
Walter
It is during the planning of product realization that one determines the quality objectives and
requirements for the product. If the customer's PO/PA does not list a FAI as a requirement (highly
unlikely unless it is tertiary structure), then you do not have to perform. However, AS9100
REQUIRES you to plan and develop the processes needed for product realization.
Elizabeth Goldberg
Elizabeth
Humberto !
If you have a design and development process and you changing one of some parts in the product
you have to do FAI its because then you create a new product . On the design and development
process we shell do a new PDR and after customers acception we shell to do CDR to approved
the changing . .
Mario A. Sigala
Quality & Engineering Manager
Mario A.
Humberto,
It is a requirement to validate the first production run per AS9100. That should be clear for you.
AS9102 forms and practices is just one way that you could meet AS9100 but is not the only one.
To be specific to your issue:
If your auditor requests that your company have FAIs in forms of AS9102. that is not mandatory
per AS9100, however and mostly for sure it is a requirement in the flow down of your purchase
order/contract requirements.
Look at your contracts, associated docs and PO requirements and if you could not find any place
where a AS9102 or customer form for FAI is called out you can challenge a finding and for sure
win that challenge.
Last but not least, if your company is contractually obligated to provide an FAI form in the first
PO, you could provide the last one your company did, as long as the revision of the part,
10/15
processes, machinery and general conditions of manufactured have not changed since the last
time you produced such FAI. Those FAIs are valid as long as there is not a lapse of more than 2
years of continuous production as specified in AS9102.
Last note:
off the shelf parts/militaty spec parts does not require FAI.
Snyder Rivera likes this
MURALI BADRI
Senior Manager -Quality at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
MURALI
Though using AS 9102 form is not mandatory as per AS 9100, I feel it is a good practise to use it
instead of reinventing the wheel and take a risk of missing out any requirement.
If you give the option to the supplier to generate their own FAI form, then you would have to spend
time to go through them and ensure they cover all the aspects. Some small suppliers will not even
know what an FAI form should consist of.
I seriously doubt any customer would not insist for an FAI and approve the same before giving the
go ahead for production part as this becomes a risk factor if the production parts are not as per
requirement.
Philip Scalise
Humberto 2 questions for you. 1) Have you reviewed the PO? 2) Does it require a FAIR?
Philip

Mario A. Sigala
Quality & Engineering Manager
Mario A.
I agree with Muraly, AS9102 is a good practice. That is why almost, if not all OEMs, flow down
the AS9102 requirement in their contractual documents, and from that point is mandatory and
auditable when the product/customer requirements are determined per AS9100 section 7.2.1 and
7.2.2.
In the other hand Customers shall be very diligent to include FAI requirements in their contractual
requirements being that on the contract by itself or the associated PO, otherwise they could not
"Mandate" and FAIR per As9102 to be performed.
11/15
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Jim Dent, LSSBB, DTM
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AS Philip asks: look at the PO. However, take a close look at the T&Cs, and your customers'
Supplier Quality Requirements Manual.
Feedback
I have often found quality personnel in companies not looking at the actual customers T&C's on
their PO or aware of the requirements in their customers' Supplier Quality Manuals. Often it the
Quality Manager that is not flowing these requirement down to his own staff.
There are also times when FAI per AS9102 is specified in the contract specifications. sometimes
the contract requires the supplier to notify the customer's quality representative in advance of
conducting and FAI so the customer can have someone witness the FAI. This is very common
with some of the larger aerospace companies.
Philip S., Elizabeth G. like this
Jeff Gunter
Owner at JG Assessments LTD
long and short if it is:
Jeff
include the marked up degree package , highlight pen and / or blue pen to show you reviewed it.
this is for your original copy. make sure you check the drawing notes as well as the physical
dimensions. list the type of gauge used for all physical Measurments and the Calibratin ID
number. when you check a note just put in sometimes like confirmed in that spot.
depending on the
have material cert or test reports for all custom fabrications.
if there is no raw material report needed have the C of C from the supplier. you can use a C ofC for
boards and sub modules as well.
you are correct to include the BOM
Suggested discussion
sub assemblies get their own report ( within reason) and just list them Ifonyou
theonly
top page.
had time to
say three words to
impact humanity w
The IAQG website has a few nice guidelines posted on their website. If you can not find them
send me a note and I will forward the information to you.
12/15
JeffLike (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 9 months ago

Philip S., Elizabeth G. like this
Jeff Moore
Director of Business Development at Renaissance Services Inc
Jeff
I am very familiar with AS9102 and supported the new revision (C) writing team. I can send you
any materials you might like. The best general resource besides the AS9102 standard, is on the
AAQG website. Look at the Supply Chain Management Handbook. Section 7.2.1 not only has the
standard, but check lists and FAQ's. Many of your questions are answered in the FAQ's. Feel
free to contact me, as I have copies of all of these, as well as what is coming in Revision C soon.
Elizabeth G. likes this
Jack Fletcher
Jack
Hello Jeff! You might give a look at the thread on FAI & Digital Design data (as opposed to digital
manufacturing data).
Jack Fletcher
Jack
Hello Jeff! You might also check out the thread on FAIs done to digital manufacturing data as
opposed to digital design data and the possibility of introducing errors there.
Elizabeth Goldberg
Elizabeth
Jeff is absolutely right . The new version of AS9100 C is requires you to manage the FAI process /
Is not just for your customers , is for you and your company to verify the new product and the
process .
And centairly its works good for the both sides .
13/15
Jeff Moore
Jeff
Thanks Jack. I saw that too, but did not have the ability to share a comment. It was blocked, and I
am not sure why. We added some digital data FAQ's to AS9102 Rev C, bit they are not published
yet. I can share if I can figure out how to post a comment. Please let anyone who wants to know
more about any AS9102 tpic to contact me, and I am happy to share. I am happy to give advie
and share materials, andof course my company helps implement and consult on larger scale.
Jeff Moore
Jeff
It is also better explained in the next revision of AS9102 (C). We made quite a few additions to the
FAQ documents I sent directions for everyone to follow. New FAQ and AS9102 to be released
soon.
Digital data is a very broad topic,but iin addition to AS9102, something my company and myself
specialize in (MBE). I will take a look and see if I can provide insights, without raising more
questions than answers.
Elizabeth G. likes this
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What is the General Understanding of the AS9100 FAI Requirements_ Do You Have to Create FAIs for Every Part_Is There a Grandfather Clause for Parts That Have Been Manufactured for Years_How Far Back_ _ LinkedIn

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6/5/2014 What is the general understanding of the AS9100 FAI requirements?

AS91XX Series - Tips and Advice

What is the general understanding of the AS9100 FAI

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Let me expand on my original question: Is it a requirement of AS9100 to have an FAI if it is the

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Quality and Operational Excellence Professional in AZ

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