6/10/2015

Howdoesaturbouseheatfromtheexhaust?

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How does a turbo use heat from the exhaust?

ISX

116

#1

Jan 11, 2013

So I realize that the engine produces pressure but most of the time this
pressure is 1:1 with the boost pressure when the turbo is actually doing its
job (higher engine speeds/loaded). This raises the question about how you
can gain efficiency if the boost you make is used for drive pressure which
means the pistons do have a force to shove the exhaust out to drive the
turbo. Now a book I have says it also uses the heat from the exhaust which
is apparently one of the key factors in reaping the benefits of a turbo. My
question is, how? I wouldn't think hot air on it's own would do anything at
all. But the pre and post turbo temperatures are 300F apart so apparently
it's using it somehow, I just don't get how. Anyone care to enlighten me?

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SteamKing

#2

Jan 11, 2013

The pistons do not shove exhaust gases out of a cylinder. When the
exhaust valve opens, the hot gas is naturally going to expand, and most of
the gas leaves the cylinder due to this expansion.
9,265
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper

The turbine portion of the TC will be turned when the hot exhaust gas
flows thru the unit during its expansion out of the cylinder. The amount of
work extracted by the turbine results in a temperature drop of the gas,
which is why the exhaust temp of a naturally aspirated engine is higher
than an engine with a turbo.

hondaman520
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/howdoesaturbouseheatfromtheexhaust.663649/

#3

Jan 11, 2013

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Steamking is 100% right. You must focus on the prime phenomenon at

work here. Heat particles are expanding as they leave the exhaust valve,
which pushes in all directions, if you think about it, this natural
phenomenon is somewhat counter-efficient to the structure of an engine.
Turbochargers help utilize this phenomenon by means of the turbine,
which reacts to this expansion (in the form of a spinning wheel).

Windadct

#4

Jan 11, 2013

ISX - there are few things not 100% in your post -

777

1st - the Boost is relative to atmosphere - this is a statement of the intake

(manifold pressure) relative to naturally aspirated - technically an
aspirated engine would be less than 1:1 - because the cylinders are
"sucking" in the air. So with a turbo or supercharger - you are pressurizing
the intake - more air ( O2) the more fuel you can burn. This side of the
turbo/SC is the compressor.
2 - Turbos do not necessarily increase efficiency - they improve the
amount of power the engine can produce - well technically torque another post needed.
3) The pressure to drive the turbo comes from the exhaust of the
combustion not really the exhaust stroke of the cylinder - the exhaust is
run through the turbo to generate spin - transferred back to the
compressor side.
4) At the end of the exhaust stoke - I would say the piston DOES push the
gasses out ( with the force coming from another cylinders expansion - but
this is lower pressure level than at the initial opening of the E Valve.
5) Heat - typically - my understanding is that heat is the enemy. I guess it
is possible that the combustion temp is much higher causing greater
expansion of the gasses ( a lean = O2 rich combustion, does run hotter,
possibly causing the exhaust gasses to want/need to expand = higher
exhaust pressure.) - so I can see how this is important - but I have not
heard of this being a significant adder. As far as being an enemy - this in
an intake issue - when you compress a gas (air) it is heated, thus the need
for intercoolers - since small compact turbos are preferred - hotter
Exhaust Gas Temp ( EGT) will raise the temp of the whole turbo
assembly..... so I am thinking that hotter EGT - is a wash, because the turbo
runs hotter and then the incoming air is hotter --- but this last point is just
a gut feeling.

ISX
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/howdoesaturbouseheatfromtheexhaust.663649/

#5

Jan 12, 2013

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I guess my question now is if the exhaust has already left the engine, how
does any more heat get added? You say the expanding gasses drive the
turbo but if it's already out of the engine then where does the heat get
added?
116

Q_Goest

#6

Jan 12, 2013

ISX said:

2,974
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member

I guess my question now is if the exhaust has already left the engine, how does
any more heat get added? You say the expanding gasses drive the turbo but if it's
already out of the engine then where does the heat get added?

Good question. We should be able to apply the first law of thermo to a

as we can apply
it to any
thermodynamic
process. If the
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pressure at the inlet of the exhaust turbine is the same as the pressure on
the outlet of the turbine, then the only available energy is from the kinetic
energy of the gas. If the kinetic energy isn't being utilized then the
thermal energy of the gas isn't going to produce any energy to rotate the
turbine.
Have a look at the Garrett web site. They have an explanation of how
turbochargers work here. They talk about the exhaust gas coming out of
the cylinder and then:

The high temperature gas then continues on to the turbine (6). The turbine
creates backpressure on the engine which means engine exhaust pressure
is higher than atmospheric pressure.
A pressure and temperature drop occurs (expansion) across the turbine (7),
which harnesses the exhaust gas' energy to provide the power necessary to
drive the compressor.

They also include graphs of pressure ratio across the turbine for each
model of turbocharger such as this one for the GT35R with 3 different
trims:

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I read this to say that the absolute pressure ratio of aproximately 2.5 gives
the best isentropic efficiency at around 70%, so if the outlet pressure of
the turbocharger is 15 psia, the inlet pressure is 37.5 psia (or 2.5 times
higher than outlet).

Astronuc

#7

Jan 12, 2013

ISX said:

22,922

Staff: Mentor

I guess my question now is if the exhaust has already left the engine, how does
any more heat get added? You say the expanding gasses drive the turbo but if it's
already out of the engine then where does the heat get added?

One puts the turbine stage as close to the engine as possible and allows
the gas expansion (momentum/energy transfer resulting in a cooling and
pressure drop) to take place in the turbine. Otherwise, heat transfer is
accomplished with a recuperator, which would have a low pressure drop,
or conduction through the housing.
The compressor driven by the turbine also heats the cooler inlet air via
compression.
In jet engines, the turbine drives the compressor.

#8

Jan 12, 2013

ISX
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/howdoesaturbouseheatfromtheexhaust.663649/

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116

Can this be thought of as like even just the engine itself? As in you shoot
in fuel and the heat expands producing work. In a turbo it is the same idea
but you have the pressure driving the turbo but also have the heat driving
it. But this leaves in question the fact that the engine is cold then hot with
every power stroke but a turbo is seemingly always getting just hot air.
Basically I am thinking the air inside the exhaust manifold gets cold and
hot very quickly with each exhaust valve opening. This happens so fast
that we do not see it on an EGT gauge but see it as a constant
temperature. But do those rapid expansions of the air that happens a ton
of times each second, actually simulate a pressure rise (driving the turbo)
in much the same way the fuel in the combustion chamber does?

Astronuc

#9

Jan 12, 2013

ISX said:

22,922

Staff: Mentor

Can this be thought of as like even just the engine itself? As in you shoot in fuel
and the heat expands producing work. In a turbo it is the same idea but you have
the pressure driving the turbo but also have the heat driving it. But this leaves in
question the fact that the engine is cold then hot with every power stroke but a
turbo is seemingly always getting just hot air. Basically I am thinking the air
inside the exhaust manifold gets cold and hot very quickly with each exhaust
valve opening. This happens so fast that we do not see it on an EGT gauge but see
it as a constant temperature. But do those rapid expansions of the air that
happens a ton of times each second, actually simulate a pressure rise (driving the
turbo) in much the same way the fuel in the combustion chamber does?

The hotter the gas, the greater the energy per unit mass or unit volume,
assuming a fixed volume, so the greater pressure and potential to do work.
The turbine stage runs of the exhaust stream.
In a piston energy, there are multiple pistons set at different points in the
rotational cycle. And the rpms, are such that an individual piston and valve
set are moving 20-100 times/sec.
Think 1200 rpm = 20 rps (Hz), and 6000 rpm = 100 rps (Hz), and then
multiply this by 4, 5, or 6, or depending on the number of cylinders and
how they are phased. We have 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 16 cylinder engines, and some
diesels up to 20 cylinders. Large diesel motors tend to operate at low rpm,
< 1000 rpm, and more like 900 rpm, as compared to smaller cylinder
automotive engines.

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