Bhikkhu Thanissaro The Full Article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
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Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010
11:56 am
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Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

by Nyana Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:27 am
P
o
s
alan wrote:
t
That "flowing in" must have happened at a certain time. When?
Well, if we understand that our social and cultural situation is part of our kamma inheritance,
i.e. it is the embedded social environment we are born into and raised in, then our cultural
conditioning informs who we are and what we believe at any given time, just as some of our
past-life kamma does.
alan wrote:
Asava seems to refer to the bubbling up of thoughts, but nowhere have I found anything in the
suttas that confirms, or even corresponds with this idea you propose...help me out here.
It has always seemed more intuitive to me to consider the sava-s as "outflows" (effluents). But
maybe this influx + outflow double entendre is worth considering? No one is born and raised in
a complete vacuum. I'd suggest that this is the "negative" consensual delusion side of
"interdependence."
All the best,
Geoff
o
p

by tiltbillings Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:55 am
P
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6859&p=110361[6/8/2558 11:17:06]
Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel
a wrote:
I'd suggest that this is the "negative" consensual delusion side of "interdependence."
All the best,
tiltbillings
Posts: 21207
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Geoff
I wonder what TNH would say about that?

.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making,
freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth,
freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning,
would not be known here. -- Ud 80
Ar scth a chile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one anothers shelter.
dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.
o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009
12:35 pm

by PeterB Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:35 am
P
o
s
a wrote:
t
alan wrote:

Well, if we understand that our social and cultural situation is part of our kamma inheritance,
i.e. it is the embedded social environment we are born into and raised in, then our cultural
conditioning informs who we are and what we believe at any given time, just as some of our
past-life kamma does.
alan wrote:
Asava seems to refer to the bubbling up of thoughts, but nowhere have I found anything in
the suttas that confirms, or even corresponds with this idea you propose...help me out
here.
maybe this influx + outflow double entendre is worth considering? No one is born and raised in
a complete vacuum. I'd suggest that this is the "negative" consensual delusion side of
"interdependence."
All the best,"
That certainly makes sense to me. After all as you say above our "effluents " do not simply
appear in a vacuum.
Specifically in terms of Romamntisicm we are being bombarded constantly with its imagery
particularly from the world of advertising, which is keen for us to associate products with
health and the great outdoors and to condition our feelings in the Behavioural sense.
One of the great ironies is that the spontinaity and interconnectness and naturalness so beloved
of the Romantics has been harnessed by the ad industry and sold to us. " Cool as a mountain
stream " " I'd like to teach the world to sing " " Denim.....for men! !
Recently in Europe at least there has been a concerted effort to use Buddhist imagery in ads.
Every other ad seems to feature Rupas and monks..but invariably they all fall into two
types...humorous, with dippy hippys and Guru figures, or Romanticism...the wild and the free.
Dukkha is banished, no one has stiff legs...sila is replaced by emotional bonding... swelling
strings tell us what we ought to be feeling..
It would not be surprising if that stuff forms much of what bubbles up in meditation as effluent.
o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
12:35 pm

P
o
s
PeterB wrote:
t
a wrote:
alan wrote:

Well, if we understand that our social and cultural situation is part of our kamma
inheritance, i.e. it is the embedded social environment we are born into and raised in,
then our cultural conditioning informs who we are and what we believe at any given time,
just as some of our past-life kamma does.
alan wrote:
Asava seems to refer to the bubbling up of thoughts, but nowhere have I found
anything in the suttas that confirms, or even corresponds with this idea you
propose...help me out here.
maybe this influx + outflow double entendre is worth considering? No one is born and raised in a
complete vacuum. I'd suggest that this is the "negative" consensual delusion side of
"interdependence."
All the best,"
That certainly makes sense to me. After all as you say above our "effluents " do not simply
appear in a vacuum.
Specifically in terms of Romamntisicm we are being bombarded constantly with its imagery
particularly from the world of advertising, which is keen for us to associate products with
health and the great outdoors and to condition our feelings in the Behavioural sense.
One of the great ironies is that the spontinaity and interconnectness and naturalness so beloved
of the Romantics has been harnessed by the ad industry and sold to us. " Cool as a mountain
stream " " I'd like to teach the world to sing " " Denim.....for men! !

Recently in Europe at least there has been a concerted effort to use Buddhist imagery in ads.
Every other ad seems to feature Rupas and monks..but invariably they all fall into two
types...humorous, with dippy hippys and Guru figures, or Romanticism...the wild and the free.
Dukkha is banished, no one has stiff legs...sila is replaced by emotional bonding... swelling
strings tell us what we ought to be feeling..
It would not be surprising if that stuff forms much of what bubbles up in meditation as effluent.
Coincidentally I heard a radio discussion on a BBC programme called The Media Show and a
representative from the ad industry said that what is big in the ad world currently is "
lesbianism., Buddhism and meerkats ".... Not ususally in the same ad however....
o
p
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

by Nyana Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:03 am
P
o
s
PeterB wrote:
t
Coincidentally I heard a radio discussion on a BBC programme called The Media Show and a
representative from the ad industry said that what is big in the ad world currently is "
lesbianism., Buddhism and meerkats "
LOL.... Add beer to that mix and....

o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
12:35 pm

P
o
stand
back ...?
s
The
t ad fella said this in a tone of great
seriousness btw. All strokey beardy.

o
p
alan
Posts: 2746
Joined: Wed Sep 30,
2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach,
Fl.

by alan Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:33 am
P
HioGeoff
s
You
t seem to be a smart guy and are
obviously a much more advanced student of the Dhamma

than me, so I look over your posts with considerable interest. But one thing struck me, hope
you will explain.
You said: "if we understand that our social and cultural situation is part of our Kamma
inheritance..,"
I don't get that. Why should we assume such a thing?
Also don't understand why asava should be understood in terms of content.
o
p
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

by Nyana Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:29 am
P
o
s
alan wrote:
t
You said: "if we understand that our social and cultural situation is part of our Kamma
inheritance..,"
I don't get that. Why should we assume such a thing?
Well, as far as I'm concerned we shouldn't assume anything. Kamma is somewhat of a slippery
subject, and I don't think it's helpful to theorize too much about it. But kamma has somehow
landed us in our current familial, social, and cultural situation. These quite specific conditions
that we have been born into influence us. But as for how it all "works," I have no idea.
alan wrote:
Also don't understand why asava should be understood in terms of content.
Yeah, I think the four sava-s are general categories. The sava of views is said to be
eliminated upon stream entry, thus this category would include any wrong views associated
with identity view, and so on.
I find that the ten fetters offer a more precise treatment of the same phenomena to be
eliminated. Anyway, MN 02 goes into the practical details regarding how to work with the
sava-s.
All the best,
Geoff
o
p

by christopher::: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:30 am
P
o
s
a wrote:
t
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009
12:56 am
Yeah, I think the four sava-s are general categories. The sava of views is said to be eliminated
upon stream entry, thus this category would include any wrong views associated with identity
view, and so on.
I find that the ten fetters offer a more precise treatment of the same phenomena to be
eliminated. Anyway, MN 02 goes into the practical details regarding how to work with the
sava-s.
All the best,
Geoff
Thanks for that link, Geoff. Do you think it's possible for a person to have a somewhat
"Romantic" Buddhist view that helps them to eliminate the fetters, or are they in all cases
enabling of the fetters? As an example, in a dhamma talk by Gil Fronsdal (linked earlier in this
discussion) he said that IMS' Joseph Goldstein mentioned Thich Nhat Hanh as being the source
for ideas of interdependence spreading among Western Dhamma/Dharma teachers.
"What is non-self, Anatta (Pali)? It means impermanence. If things are impermanent, they don't
remain the same things forever. You of this moment are no longer you of a minute ago. There is
no permanent entity within us, there is only a stream of being. There is always a lot of input
and output. The input and the output happen in every second, and we should learn how to look
at life as streams of being, and not as separate entities. This is a very profound teaching of the
Buddha. For instance, looking into a flower, you can see that the flower is made of many

elements that we can call non-flower elements. When you touch the flower, you touch the
cloud. You cannot remove the cloud from the flower, because if you could remove the cloud
from the flower, the flower would collapse right away. You don't have to be a poet in order to
see a cloud floating in the flower, but you know very well that without the clouds there would
be no rain and no water for the flower to grow. So cloud is part of flower, and if you send the
element cloud back to the sky, there will be no flower. Cloud is a non-flower element. And the
sunshineyou can touch the sunshine here. If you send back the element sunshine, the flower
will vanish. And sunshine is another non-flower element. And earth, and gardenerif you
continue, you will see a multitude of non-flower elements in the flower. In fact, a flower is
made only with non-flower elements. It does not have a separate self.
A flower cannot be by herself alone. A flower has to "inter-be" with everything else that is called
non-flower. That is what we call inter-being. You cannot be, you can only inter-be. The word
inter-be can reveal more of the reality than the word "to be". You cannot be by yourself alone,
you have to inter-be with everything else. So the true nature of the flower is the nature of
inter-being, the nature of no self. The flower is there, beautiful, fragrant, yes, but the flower is
empty of a separate self. To be empty is not a negative note. Nagarjuna, of the second century,
said that because of emptiness, everything becomes possible.
So a flower is described as empty. But I like to say it differently. A flower is empty only of a
separate self, but a flower is full of everything else. The whole cosmos can be seen, can be
identified, can be touched, in one flower. So to say that the flower is empty of a separate
self also means that the flower is full of the cosmos. It's the same thing. So you are of the
same nature as a flower: you are empty of a separate self, but you are full of the cosmos.
You are as wonderful as the cosmos, you are a manifestation of the cosmos. So non-self is
another guide that Buddha offers us in order for us to successfully practice looking deeply.
What does it mean to look deeply? Looking deeply means to look in such a way that the true
nature of impermanence and non-self can reveal themselves to you. Looking into yourself,
looking into the flower, you can touch the nature of impermanence and the nature of non-self,
and if you can touch the nature of impermanence and non-self deeply, you can also touch the
nature of nirvana, which is the Third Dharma Seal."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
The Island of Self
Looking at these ideas, clearly we can see that TNH put an extra spin on them, his words (in
green) encourage a Romanticized identity view, identification with the entire Universe. But if
we remove the green section, can these ideas possibly be helpful to a practitioner, seen as
skillful means, another way of describing the nature of anatta and impermanence?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and
clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving
kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
o
p
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

by Nyana Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:19 am
P
o
s
christopher::: wrote:

Do you think it's possible for a person to have a somewhat "Romantic" Buddhist view that helps
them to eliminate the fetters, or are they in all cases enabling of the fetters?
I think it probably depends on which specific tradition one follows. For example, understanding
poetic thought, symbolism and metaphor are very much a part of Chan/Zen. Symbolism also
plays a significant role in Vajrayna. For a Theravda practitioner, not so much.
As an example, in a dhamma talk by Gil Fronsdal (linked earlier in this discussion) he said that
IMS' Joseph Goldstein mentioned Thich Nhat Hanh as being the source for ideas of
interdependence spreading among Western Dhamma/Dharma teachers.
Looking at these ideas, clearly we can see that TNH put an extra spin on them, his words (in
green) encourage a Romanticized identity view, identification with the entire Universe. But if
we remove the green section, can these ideas possibly be helpful to a practitioner, seen as
skillful means, another way of describing the nature of anatta and impermanence?
The view that TNH is presenting is pretty much straight up Huayan Dharma. His style of
expression is the only difference. Huayan has had a significant influence on many of the
greatest minds of East Asian Buddhism. Cleary's Entry Into the Inconceivable and Chang's
Buddhist Teaching of Totality are decent introductions to Huayan teachings (both of which
have some translated treatises included).
All the best,
Geoff
o
p

by christopher::: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:37 am
P
o interesting, Geoff. So it sounds like some of the Asian Dharma teachers that have made
Very
s
use
t of "Romantic" English words and Western ideas may have been reaching for concepts to
christopher:::
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009
12:56 am
express somewhat similar ideas from their own Asian traditions and cultures?
If so, that would mean that it's not so simple a task to pinpoint the origins of these ideas.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and
clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving
kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
o
p
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

by Nyana Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:40 pm
P
o
s
t
Very interesting, Geoff. So it sounds like some of the Asian Dharma teachers that have made use
of "Romantic" English words and Western ideas may have been reaching for concepts to express
somewhat similar ideas from their own Asian traditions and cultures?
Sure. And if I were a betting man I'd bet that Huayan isn't Ven. hnissaro's cup of tea.
If so, that would mean that it's not so simple a task to pinpoint the origins of these ideas.
There are numerous well established traditional "Buddhisms." Each with a very long history. To
learn even one tradition beyond mere generalizations requires many years of both studying and
practicing that particular tradition's teachings with teachers from that tradition.
All the best,
Geoff
o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
12:35 pm

by PeterB Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:35 pm
P
o
Fortunately
pour moi I have no ambitions beyond
s
tradition
that
this forum is an expression of.
t
a reasonable grasp of one tradition..... the
Which is why Than Thanissarro is pretty much MY cup of tea. And why his critique of
Romanticism has particular resonance for many who follow the Theravada.
Nowhere does he say that ideas analogous to Romanticism are not found in other Buddhist
traditions.
Nowhere does he say that there is no other ideological barrier than Romanticism to an
understanding of Buddha Dhamma.
He is saying that Romanaticism does not form a comfortable fit with the Buddha Dhamma of the
Pali Canon.
He is addressing a group of people sympatico to the Theravada.
For many of us the Theravada is a conscious choice after exploring other Buddhist traditions,
somtimes in depth. We have not somehow slipped into the Theravada for want of knowledge of
alternatives.
o
p
Nyana
Posts: 2233
11:56 am

by Nyana Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:53 pm
P
o
s
PeterB wrote:
t
Fortunately pour moi I have no ambitions beyond a reasonable grasp of one tradition..... the
tradition that this forum is an expression of.
Which is why Than Thanissarro is pretty much MY cup of tea. And why his critique of
Romanticism has particular resonance for many who follow the Theravada.
Sure. I've heard Western Buddhist teachers give teachings which were no different from what
someone like Wayne Dyer offers. A rose-colored picture which amounts to attempting to
improve sasra. Quite inaccurate and therefore misleading.
All the best,
Geoff
o
p

by Vepacitta Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:04 am
P
o mention the good Ven. TNH at our temple
You
s
t
Vepacitta
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue May 18,
2010 3:58 pm
Location: Somewhere on
the slopes of Mt. Meru
and the Abbot just shakes his head.
Of course, I'm a bit more vocal - The good sir's attempt to mind-meld Buddhism and Christianity
(Jesus 'n Buddha as blood brothers - feh!) and the 'inter-isness' we're all one big oneness really
drives me up a wall - but that's just me.
With strong views here on Mt. Meru,
V.
NB I heard Ven Bodhi once, upon request of a student, explicate Ven TNH's take on things in
accordance with the Canon - he did a pretty good job of it - cross-referencing things - well - he
always does - but I got the impression that it was sort of an intellectual exercise - there didn't
appear to be any conviction in it - and Ven Bodhi is very nice to students of other schools and
beginners - he's very very patient - but keep in mind this is my 'view' on the conversation .... I
don't want to speak for him - I just sort of felt that it was more of an exercise rather than a
real argument for (or against) Ven TNH's teachings ... I ain't as nice as Ven. Bodhi ...
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura
o
p

by Vepacitta Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:19 am
P
Oho and thanks to Alan and Peter for the
s
t
Vepacitta
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue May 18,
2010 3:58 pm
Location: Somewhere on
the slopes of Mt. Meru
article - really interesting.
Personally, I've always hated philosophy - except for the old stoics. No wonder Theravadin
Buddhism appeals to me - I never liked the gooshy one-ness thing - it always felt phony to me.
I never could grok it.
V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura
o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
12:35 pm

by PeterB Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:16 am
P
o
s
t
The reality is that a LOT of Abbotts and Bhikkhus shake their heads at the mention of TNH, one
well known Abott has been known in addition to shaking his head, raise his eyebrows to the
ceiling...they dont say much. it would be against their code of conduct to do so...but often
within those constraints they will be quite eloquent...it is fairly common for newcomers to the
Theravada to assume that the monks will hold TNH in high regard...usually they are discreetly
pointed to a source more in keeping with the Pali Canon...
Whether TNH's views derive in any way from Romanticism is a moot point.
What is an observable fact is that they are frequently roped in to reinforce a Romantic view of
Dhamma.
T

by tiltbillings Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:28 am
P
o
s
Vepacitta wrote:
t
Oh and thanks to Alan and Peter for the article - really interesting.
Personally, I've always hated philosophy - except for the old stoics. No wonder Theravadin
Buddhism appeals to me - I never liked the gooshy one-ness thing - it always felt phony to me. I
never could grok it.
tiltbillings
Posts: 21207
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
V.
You mean it is not all one? But if it were all one, I'd like to know which one it is.
.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
Damned if I know.
o
p
PeterB
Posts: 3909
12:35 pm

by PeterB Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:37 am
P
Itso not All One, Tilt ?
s
There
I was all set for tripping through
t
the meadows with a rose between my teeth. while

raising Kundalini, recalling past births,severing Karmic bonds with my ancestors, integrating
my Shadow Personality and so enabling the children of the world to live in peace.....Now you
have gone and spoilt it...duh !
o
p

by tiltbillings Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:49 am
P
o
s
PeterB wrote:
t
tiltbillings
Posts: 21207
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Its not All One, Tilt ?

There I was all set for tripping through the meadows with a rose between my teeth. while
raising Kundalini, recalling past births,severing Karmic bonds with my ancestors, integrating my
Shadow Personality and so enabling the children of the world to live in peace.....Now you have
gone and spoilt it...duh !
Baha'is like to say that religions are all one, but being the party pooper I am, I ask them which
one are they?
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
Damned if I know.
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Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

That "flowing in" must have happened at a certain time. When?

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

I wonder what TNH would say about that?

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

That "flowing in" must have happened at a certain time. When?

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

That "flowing in" must have happened at a certain time. When?

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

LOL.... Add beer to that mix and....

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

seriousness btw. All strokey beardy.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

obviously a much more advanced student of the Dhamma

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Also don't understand why asava should be understood in terms of content.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

a reasonable grasp of one tradition..... the

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

and the Abbot just shakes his head.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

article - really interesting.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

the meadows with a rose between my teeth. while

Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.

Its not All One, Tilt ?

Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article. - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

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