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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byDexingTueApr05,20117:25am
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion"phenomenon"isnotmistaken
sinceithasacorrelateindirectexperience.

Whatphenomenoncanbedirectlyexperienced?

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nopalabhyate...

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bygroundTueApr05,20117:44am
Dexingwrote:
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion"phenomenon"isnot
mistakensinceithasacorrelateindirectexperience.

Whatphenomenoncanbedirectlyexperienced?

Correlate!!!!
Closeyoureyesandthenopenthem.Therearequitesomecorrelates.
Kindregards

ground

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byPemaRigdzinTueApr05,20117:48am
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion"phenomenon"isnotmistaken
sinceithasacorrelateindirectexperience.
Areyoutalkingaboutaphenomenonthatexistsbyitsownpower,permanently,devoidof
dependenceuponcausesandconditions?
PemaRigdzin

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bygroundTueApr05,20117:49am
PemaRigdzinwrote:
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion"phenomenon"isnot
mistakensinceithasacorrelateindirectexperience.
Areyoutalkingaboutaphenomenonthatexistsbyitsownpower,permanently,devoid
ofdependenceuponcausesandconditions?

No.Youareaphilosopher.
Kindregards
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ground

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byPemaRigdzinTueApr05,20117:58am
TMingyurwrote:
PemaRigdzinwrote:
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion
"phenomenon"isnotmistakensinceithasacorrelateindirect
experience.
Areyoutalkingaboutaphenomenonthatexistsbyitsownpower,
permanently,devoidofdependenceuponcausesandconditions?

No.Youareaphilosopher.
Kindregards

Why,becauseI'veanalyzedaphenomenonanddecidedtherearesomecriteriathatmustbemetifit's
tobedefinedacertainway?Ifso,thenwhatdoesthatmakeyouwhenyoucallmeaphilosopher?
Also,inyourworld,cansomeonewho'smainpracticeisfreeofconceptualelaborationorspeculation
ofanykindnotchoosetoemploylogicwhenmakinganargumentindiscussionifhefeelslikeit?Is
hestillamerephilosopherifhisultimaterelianceisnotuponthoughts?
PemaRigdzin

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bygroundTueApr05,20118:08am
PemaRigdzinwrote:
TMingyurwrote:
PemaRigdzinwrote:Areyoutalkingaboutaphenomenonthat
existsbyitsownpower,permanently,devoidofdependence
uponcausesandconditions?

No.Youareaphilosopher.
Kindregards

Why,becauseI'veanalyzedaphenomenonanddecidedtherearesomecriteriathatmust
bemetifit'stobedefinedacertainway?Ifso,thenwhatdoesthatmakeyouwhenyou
callmeaphilosopher?
Youhaveintroducedtheconceptof"existence".Thisisconditionedthought,anaccumulatedhabit
throughconditioningoneselftophilosophicalthoughts.
PemaRigdzinwrote:Also,inyourworld,cansomeonewho'smainpracticeisfreeof
conceptualelaborationorspeculationofanykindnotchoosetoemploylogicwhen
makinganargumentindiscussionifhefeelslikeit?Ishestillamerephilosopherifhis
ultimaterelianceisnotuponthoughts?
"Logic"isconditionedbyassumptionsandconventions.Sincethereisavarietyofassumptionsand
conventionsthereisavarietyof"logic"."Logic"actuallyisaclasssignifier.
Kindregards

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byMariuszTueApr05,20118:11am
Namdrolwrote:[
Thepointiswhetherthecognitionisdeludedorundeludedinadefinitivesense.The
objectofanundeludedcognitionisanultimatetruth.Theemphasislaysonthecognition
apprehendingtheobject,nottheobject.Butsincetherecannotbeacognitionatallsans
anobject,itisimportanttoincludeanobjectintheformulationofhowatruthisdefined.
IselectChandrakirtiforconveniencesinceheisgenerallyregardedastheauthoritative
commentarialvoiceconcerningNagarjuna'scorpusofMadhyamakaworks.
Ifweweretalkingaboutthetwotruthsinothersystems,forexample,Sarvastivada,I
wouldciteVasuybandhu.

Howisyourdefinitionofcognition?IsisnotasSantideva'sBodhisattva'swayoflifeagrees:
"Theultimateisnotthesphereofcognition.
Itissaidthatcognitionistheseeming."
Pleasecheckthetibetanmadhyamakaforumviewtopic.php?f=40&t=1321
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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byPemaRigdzinTueApr05,20118:19am
TMingyurwrote:Youhaveintroducedtheconceptof"existence".Thisisconditioned
thought,anaccumulatedhabitthroughconditioningoneselftophilosophicalthoughts.

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Well,thanksforjoiningmesoIdon'thavetophilosophizeandindulgeinconditionedthoughtsallby
mylonesome.
Tata.
PemaRigdzin

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bymuniTueApr05,20118:39am
Once,Iwasinabeautifulhotel,neverbeenbefore.Inthemorningwasthereapeepnoisea
telephone,tookitandlistened."Goodmorningthisisthemorningcallwehopeyouhadagoodnight
andexpectyouatfloor...forbreakfast..."
Iwassosurprised,startedtotellmywholelifetothatfriendlyvoice.LaterIcametoknowhowthat
thingworked.
Couldhearthevoicebecausethevoicewasn't.(howcanitbeonitsown)Soemptymind.Ifithad
beennotamachinebutaperson,ithadbethesame.
Equalityinterdependentphenomenaemptiness.
Onlybythisequalityistherenoclingingtoappearancesorclingingtoemptinesspossible.
Firsttherewasnothing.ThenGodsaid:Maytherebelight!Andtherewaslight.
Therewasstillnothing,butnowthatwasmuchbettertosee.
http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony...rspective/
muni

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bySherabDorjeTueApr05,20119:40am
Youknow,afterreadingthroughthelastthreepagesofthisthreadthefollowingquestioncameto
mind:
Isthedogchasingitstailoristhetailchasingthedog?

dog.jpg(8.69KiB)Viewed644times
Woof!
"Myreligionisnotdeceivingmyself."
JetsunMilarepa10521135CE

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
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bymuniTueApr05,201112:00pm
Sherabwrote:[
]
HowisDzogchenbeyondcauseandeffectifemptinessisidenticaltodependent
origination?

Equalityofillusionatedependencyandemptiness.Illusionateworld.
Nagarjuna:"Thereforeyoufullyunderstoodthisworldtohaveemergedfromideation.(Dzogchen
beyondconcepts)
Andwhenemerging,youhavedeclared,thereisnoarisingandnodisintegration".
(orallphenomenaareselfarisenandselfliberated)=noclingingpossible.
Nagarjuna:"Mayallbeingswithoutexceptionbecomefreefromthebondagetosigns."(fromHymn
totheBuddhaWorldTranscendent.)
Firsttherewasnothing.ThenGodsaid:Maytherebelight!Andtherewaslight.
Therewasstillnothing,butnowthatwasmuchbettertosee.
http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony...rspective/
muni

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byDexingTueApr05,201112:43pm
TMingyurwrote:
Dexingwrote:
TMingyurwrote:Wellfrommyperspectivethenotion
"phenomenon"isnotmistakensinceithasacorrelateindirect
experience.

Whatphenomenoncanbedirectlyexperienced?

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2860&start=160

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Correlate!!!!
Closeyoureyesandthenopenthem.Therearequitesomecorrelates.
Kindregards

Toquoteyou,allIfindis"namelessexperience"."Youareaphilosopher".

nopalabhyate...

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byMalcolmTueApr05,20112:48pm
TMingyurwrote:
Namdrolwrote:Inotherwords,dependentoriginationandnyatare
preciselythesamething.

Namdrolwrote:Thenidanasexplainthedependentoriginationofkleshas.
Theyareifyouwill,thespecialtheoryofdependentorigination.
ButwhatIamdiscussinghere,andwhatNgrjunaisactuallytalkingabout
generallyisthegeneraltheoryofdependentorigination.
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Interesting.Iwouldsaythat"thedependentoriginationofthenidanas"andthe"general
theoryofdependentorigination""areprecislythesamething"(toborrowyourown
words).
Kindregards

Thenidanasareaspecializedaccountoftheprocessofsamsara,therecanbeasmanyasthirteenand
fewaseight,dependingonwhatsutraoneisreading.
Thegeneraltheoryofdependentoriginationrunssomethinglikethefollowing:
Wherethisexisteded,thatexists
withthearisingofthat,thisarose
Wherethisdoesnotexist,thatdoesnotexist,
withthecessationofthat,thisceased.
Infortheabovetofunction,theabovemustallbeempty,asNgrjunaextensivelyshows.As
substantialistexplanationoftheaboveformuladoesnotwork.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

TheverymeaningoftheTibetantermDzogchen,"GreatPerfection,"referstothetrueprimordial
stateofeveryindividualandnottoanytranscendentreality.
ChogyalNamkhaiNorbu

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byMalcolmTueApr05,20113:01pm
Sherabwrote:
Namdrolwrote:Thecitationmeansthat"empty"and"dependent"are
completelyinterchangeableterms.Itcanbeexpressedasfollows:
Somethingemptyissomethingdependent
somethingdependentissomethingempty
somethingnotemptyissomethingnondependent
somethingnondependentissomethingnotempty.
Thenatureofthedependentistobeempty
thenatureoftheemptyistobedependent
thenatureofthenondependentistobenonempty
thenatureofthenonemptyistobenondependent.
Inotherwords,dependentoriginationandnyatarepreciselythesame
thing.
N
HowisDzogchenbeyondcauseandeffectifemptinessisidenticaltodependent
origination?

Sortofofftopicbuttoanswerthequestion:Dzogchenisawayofrealizationthatisbeyondcause
andeffecti.e.whichdoesnotrequirecausalaccumulationsofmeritandwisdom.Itisnotan
ontologicalstatebeyondcauseandeffect.ThereasonthatDzogchendoesnotproposeanontological
stateisthatsincenophenomenaatallareestablishedinthebasis,therearenoontologicalstatesatall,
eitherexistentornonexistent.InDzogchen,theterm"dependentorigination"referssolelytothe
processinitiatedbytheknowledgeobscurationofavidywhichfalselyimputesidentitytopersonand
thingsontotheappearanceofthebasis.Kadagandlhundrupmaybeunderstoodashownonafflictive
orpreafflictiveprocessesinthebasisaredescribedinDzogchenteachings.
Vidy|Avidy
kadag|emptiness
lhundrub|dependentorigination
N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

TheverymeaningoftheTibetantermDzogchen,"GreatPerfection,"referstothetrueprimordial
stateofeveryindividualandnottoanytranscendentreality.
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ChogyalNamkhaiNorbu

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byRaelTueApr05,20115:07pm
gregkavarnoswrote:Youknow,afterreadingthroughthelastthreepagesofthisthread
thefollowingquestioncametomind:
Isthedogchasingitstailoristhetailchasingthedog?
dog.jpg
Woof!

theonlyproblemiseeisusingthenamesofthelikesofNargajunatoimputeonesownobscuredview
untothephilosophyofSunyata...
Sunyataisbestlefttosomeonewhohasrealizedit...notjustunderstandingit'simplications....and
parrotingquotes...
anydeviceusedinthisthreadthatintheslightestwaydeviatesthereaderfromcomingtothetrue
experienceisdangerousbothfortheauthorandthereader....
LoveLoveLove

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byMalcolmTueApr05,20115:17pm
Raelwrote:
gregkavarnoswrote:Youknow,afterreadingthroughthelastthreepagesof
thisthreadthefollowingquestioncametomind:
Isthedogchasingitstailoristhetailchasingthedog?
dog.jpg
Woof!

theonlyproblemiseeisusingthenamesofthelikesofNargajunatoimputeonesown
obscuredviewuntothephilosophyofSunyata...
Sunyataisbestlefttosomeonewhohasrealizedit...notjustunderstandingit's
implications....andparrotingquotes...
anydeviceusedinthisthreadthatintheslightestwaydeviatesthereaderfromcomingto
thetrueexperienceisdangerousbothfortheauthorandthereader....

Guessweshouldjustallshutupandgohome.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
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TheverymeaningoftheTibetantermDzogchen,"GreatPerfection,"referstothetrueprimordial
stateofeveryindividualandnottoanytranscendentreality.
ChogyalNamkhaiNorbu

Malcolm

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
bySherabDorjeTueApr05,20115:20pm
AClassiccomicalanecdoteaboutmyfavoritephilosopherDiogenestheCynicwith(adegreeof)
relevancetothisthread:
Platowasdiscoursingonhistheoryofideasand,pointingtothecupsonthetablebefore
him,saidwhiletherearemanycupsintheworld,thereisonlyone`idea'ofacup,and
thiscupnessprecedestheexistenceofallparticularcups.
"Icanseethecuponthetable,"interuptedDiogenes,"butIcan'tseethe`cupness'".
"That'sbecauseyouhavetheeyestoseethecup,"saidPlato,"but",tappinghisheadwith
hisforefinger,"youdon'thavetheintellectwithwhichtocomprehend`cupness'."
Diogeneswalkeduptothetable,examinedacupand,lookinginside,asked,"Isit
empty?"
Platonodded.
"Whereisthe`emptiness'whichprocedesthisemptycup?"askedDiogenes.
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Platoallowedhimselfafewmomentstocollecthisthoughts,butDiogenesreachedover
and,tappingPlato'sheadwithhisfinger,said"Ithinkyouwillfindhereisthe
`emptiness'."

"Myreligionisnotdeceivingmyself."
JetsunMilarepa10521135CE

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byRaelTueApr05,20115:21pm
Namdrolwrote:
Raelwrote:
gregkavarnoswrote:Youknow,afterreadingthroughthelast
threepagesofthisthreadthefollowingquestioncametomind:
Isthedogchasingitstailoristhetailchasingthedog?
dog.jpg
Woof!

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2860&start=160

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DharmaWheelViewtopicemptiness=interdependence?

theonlyproblemiseeisusingthenamesofthelikesofNargajunatoimpute
onesownobscuredviewuntothephilosophyofSunyata...
Sunyataisbestlefttosomeonewhohasrealizedit...notjustunderstanding
it'simplications....andparrotingquotes...
anydeviceusedinthisthreadthatintheslightestwaydeviatesthereader
fromcomingtothetrueexperienceisdangerousbothfortheauthorandthe
reader....

Guessweshouldjustallshutupandgohome.

no...butwhenyoumakeastupidcommentandaposterlikemoipointsitout...atleastacceptthe
mistake....maybegobackandshowyournotinfallible...orisyourimagetooimportantathingas
opposedtoteachingwhatsproper...
bythewaythatwasaprettyjuvenileattemptandevasion....
LoveLoveLove

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byRaelTueApr05,20115:39pm
gregkavarnoswrote:AClassiccomicalanecdoteaboutmyfavoritephilosopherDiogenes
theCynicwith(adegreeof)relevancetothisthread:
Platowasdiscoursingonhistheoryofideasand,pointingtothecupsonthe
tablebeforehim,saidwhiletherearemanycupsintheworld,thereisonly
one`idea'ofacup,andthiscupnessprecedestheexistenceofallparticular
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cups.
"Icanseethecuponthetable,"interuptedDiogenes,"butIcan'tseethe
`cupness'".
"That'sbecauseyouhavetheeyestoseethecup,"saidPlato,"but",tapping
hisheadwithhisforefinger,"youdon'thavetheintellectwithwhichto
comprehend`cupness'."
Diogeneswalkeduptothetable,examinedacupand,lookinginside,asked,
"Isitempty?"
Platonodded.
"Whereisthe`emptiness'whichprocedesthisemptycup?"askedDiogenes.
Platoallowedhimselfafewmomentstocollecthisthoughts,butDiogenes
reachedoverand,tappingPlato'sheadwithhisfinger,said"Ithinkyouwill
findhereisthe`emptiness'."

withallduerespecttoPlato...idoubtverymuchifhewasevenalludingtosunyataandthissortof
thingcouldendupinadiscussionofwhetherthecupishalffullorhalfempty....whichisn'treally
goingtohelp...
asarethesestatementswhichifindreallytakingawayfromthemethodofpointingtowhatemptiness
impliesinthephilosophyofSunyata
thenatureofthenondependentistobenonempty
thenatureofthenonemptyistobenondependent.

nonempty.....imeanthereisareasonyouneverreadateachersayingthisbefore....lol
edit....thenatureofnonemptyisevenworse.
LoveLoveLove

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Re:emptiness=interdependence?
byMalcolmTueApr05,20115:44pm
Raelwrote:
nonempty.....imeanthereisareasonyouneverreadateachersayingthisbefore....lol
edit....thenatureofnonemptyisevenworse.

YouneedtoreadNgrjunaagain:
"Ifthereweresomethingalittlenotempty,therewouldbesomethingtobeempty
asthereisnothingthatisnotempty,whereistheresomethingtobeempty?"
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

TheverymeaningoftheTibetantermDzogchen,"GreatPerfection,"referstothetrueprimordial
stateofeveryindividualandnottoanytranscendentreality.
ChogyalNamkhaiNorbu

Malcolm

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