Jhanas v. Vipassana - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

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Vipassana - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

by tiltbillings Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:08 pm
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Alex123 wrote:
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tiltbillings wrote:
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Even worse are those who get waylaid by their jhana experience into thinking they have
attained more than they have. It is all too easy to shape one's meditative experience to be
in line with one's expectations and beliefs.
Same thing with "corruptions of insight".
Certainly, which is why one should never hang onto anything achieved and why working with a
teacher is a big help. Way too many people fool themselves with assumptions of ariya status,
and even worse publicly proclaiming it.
tiltbillings wrote:
Which is why working with an experienced teacher is a very good idea, but even that is no
guarantee against a misapprehension of the jhana experience.
Same thing with "vipassana" practices as well. One may get a good understanding of
Abhidhamma and wrongly believe that one is an Aryan.
Of course. As I like saying there is nothing worth hanging onto in terms of one's meditative
experience.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=8218&start=60[14/8/2558 21:36:38]
Jhanas v. Vipassana - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel
tiltbillings wrote:
The reality is that "insight methods" are not incompatible with jhna, unless one is talking
about the more highly absorbed understanding of jhanas.
Whats wrong with using a highly absorbed jhna for insight? When you emerge from it you could
do your favorite Mahasi or U Ba Khin techniques.
It can be done that way, but it is not a necessity. I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a
Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.
.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should
that mean that it is not real? HPatDH p.723
o
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by daverupa Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:24 pm
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tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa
Posts: 5319
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011
6:58 pm
The reality is that "insight methods" are not incompatible with jhna, unless one is
talking about the more highly absorbed understanding of jhanas.
Whats wrong with using a highly absorbed jhna for insight? When you emerge from it you
could do your favorite Mahasi or U Ba Khin techniques.
It can be done that way, but it is not a necessity. I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a Mahasi
Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.
The underlined portion puzzles me. If a "jhana" isn't sammasamadhi, then calling it "jhana" is
almost a misnomer.
The italicized portion: sammasamadhi isn't necessary, then?
samadhi, surely, while jhana is sammasamadhi.
Or you must mean wrong
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit,
development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way
that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience,
harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one
protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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daverupa wrote:
t
tiltbillings wrote:
The reality is that "insight methods" are not incompatible with jhna, unless one is talking
about the more highly absorbed understanding of jhanas.
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
The underlined portion puzzles me. If a "jhana" isn't sammasamadhi, then calling it "jhana" is
almost a misnomer.
Then be puzzled. What constitutes jhanas, as any number of threads here will show can be
rather vexed. Any number of folks here make a distinction between commentarial jhana,
which is the highly absorbed sort and a more fluid sutta jhana. See:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm
Let me also make it clearer. It is not that the highly absorbed jhanas can not be used for
cultivation of insight. It is that the sort awareness necessary for insight is not necessarily
possible within them, according to some.
The italicized portion: sammasamadhi isn't necessary, then?

samadhi, surely, while jhana is sammasamadhi.
Or you must mean wrong
Well, if jhana can be misapprehended (as the sutta says), then it is not samma samadhi at that
time.
.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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by Alex123 Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:27 pm
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1)oAwakening requires N8P. Not Noble 7Fold
s
2)t N8P includes samma-samdhi
path, or worse: Noble 1 fold path.
3) samma-samdhi is defined as 4 Jhnas.

Therefore Jhnas are required with all other 7 components.
Alex123
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm
As for the depth of Jhna. My opinion is to go as deep as you can and develop as much wisdom
as you can, and not be overly concerned with "what state have I reached"? Attainments don't
come with billboard signs which say "You have achieve 1st Jhna... That was Sotapatti magga
attainment... That was that insight stage... etc" . Your power of wisdom and observation may
be required to investigate these thing, and so is with "depth" of concentration. As long as you
do it correctly, go as deep as you can, or as deep as is most effective for you.
tiltbillings wrote:
I was taught highly absorbed jhana by a Mahasi Sayadaw trained teacher. I gave it up.
Ven. Vimalaramsi has said that he went through all insight know ledges, reached all that the
method claimed, practiced Mahasi method for like 20 hours a day, for a long time - and that
didn't lead him to Nibbna... (I don't agree with his description of "Jhna" and certain things he
teaches).
'in 1988, I went to the famous mediation center-Mahasi Center-in Rangoon, Burma. There I did
an intensive eight-month retreat, practicing for 22 hours a day...In 1990, I returned to Burma
for an intensive two-year retreat, alternating walking and sitting meditations for about 18
hours a day. The teacher there told all the yogis to extend our sittings, so I began setting for
longer periods of five to eight hours (without moving). After I had experienced all the stages
of meditation that a Vipassana practitioner is supposed to experience, I remained
unsatisfied." http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_background.htm
Very impressive!
"The Bhivamsas he studied with were U Pandita, U Lakkhana, U Silinanda, U Janaka, U
Dhammananda, U Dhammapia. He further studied with The Mingun Sayadaw, who had
memorized the entire Tripitika, Sayadaw U Thatilla, who had a pure audiographic memory.
Other teachers for long periods of time were K Sri Dhammananda, Venerable Punnaji, Ajahn
Yanitra, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Cha Lee, Ajahn Santititho, and many others in Thailand ."
http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teache ... ntials.htm
And apparently he had access and was taught by some of the best teachers...
I guess he was missing something... If only he did lots of Jhnas at that time, maybe it would
be different.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to
break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack
you back down with ruthless indifference..."
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Alex123 wrote:
t
. . . Ven. Vimalaramsi has said . . . .
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Given his demonstrable lack of respect and disparagement for the teachers whose names he
loves to drop, this is one individual for whom I have no respect.
The important issue is neatly spelled out by Leigh Brasington:
> There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the
Jhanas.
> We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples
were practicing.
> Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more
than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that
you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana
or immediately thereafter
Jhanas v. Vipassana is really an argument about preference, not real substance.

.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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by daverupa Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:20 am
P
o there cases of arupajhana attainment without
Are
s
that
only jhanas 5-8 are available for practice?
t
rupajhana attainment in an individual, such
daverupa
Posts: 5319
6:58 pm
protects oneself.
o
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by Alex123 Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:21 am
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tiltbillings wrote:
t
There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.
Alex123
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm
Why not try both kinds (light absorption, and heavy absorption). On the way to heavy
absorption, the light absorption stage will be passed anyways.
tiltbillings wrote:
Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool...
- Awakening requires N8P.

- N8P includes samma-samdhi
- samma-samdhi is defined as 4 Jhnas.
-Therefore Jhnas are required with all other 7 components.
o
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by tiltbillings Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:46 am
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Alex123 wrote:
t
tiltbillings wrote:
There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Why not try both kinds (light absorption, and heavy absorption). On the way to heavy
absorption, the light absorption stage will be passed anyways.
Why no go with what works for you and not assume that that must be the way it should be for
everybody and that everything else is wrong?
tiltbillings wrote:
Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a
tool...

And as we have seen, there is no firm consensus about the jhanas.

.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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tiltbillings wrote:
t

Alex123 wrote:
Alex123
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm

If they don't believe in what the Buddha taught, then they can have different ideas on
importance of Jhnas as culmination of N8P.
If light ones don't work, then hard ones may. Whatever works.
o
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Alex123 wrote:
t
tiltbillings wrote:
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Alex123 wrote:

If they don't believe in what the Buddha taught, then they can have different ideas on
importance of Jhnas as culmination of N8P.
"They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what
"they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I have
certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation, over
everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.
If light ones don't work, then hard ones may. Whatever works.
That is what I said, and it is a matter of experience. The notion of "jhana vs vipassana" is not
really meaningful.
.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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P
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tiltbillings wrote:
t
Alex123
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm
They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what
"they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I have
certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation, over
everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.
Opinions are opinions, but the suttas are clear:
"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of
stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right
action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
...
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk quite withdrawn from
sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities enters & remains in the first jhana:
rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana:
rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
evaluation internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful,
& alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the
abandoning of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress he
enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure
nor pain. This is called right concentration. - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ...
.than.html
"In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path,
neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of
saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path,
there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-54
People of course may reject the suttas, but then it is they who don't agree with the suttas.
o
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Alex123 wrote:
t
tiltbillings wrote:
They" believe just as much as you or anyone else does in what the Buddha taught, but what
"they" believe may not necessarily line up point by point with your point of view, and I
have certainly seen nothing here that recommends your point of view, your interpretation,
over everyone else's. Opinions and experiences vary.
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Opinions are opinions, but the suttas are clear
And how the suttas are interpreted is going to vary.

.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25,
2009 6:01 am
by ground Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:32 am

P
o
I think
the issue here is mainly a linguistic one. The nuances
s
tot be definitely expressible in terms and terminology.
that make the difference seem not
In the suttas we have several different types of "concentrations" and meditative states and it is
not quite clear how these exactly relate to each other.
E.g. Signless concentrations vs Jhana vs Vipassana? Or "Dwelling in emptiness" vs mindfullness vs
concentration?
Kind regards
o
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tiltbillings wrote:
t
Alex123
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Mar 10,
2010 11:32 pm
Such as, "When Buddha taught to do X, he really taught not to do X" ? ?

o

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Alex123 wrote:
t
tiltbillings wrote:
tiltbillings
Posts: 21231
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
Such as, "When Buddha taught to do X, he really taught not to do X" ? ?
No. Now you are simply being argumentative. What might vary is what "x" means, as we see
with the varied opinions about what jhana means. See:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm
and as Leigh Brasington stated:
> There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the
Jhanas.
> We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were
practicing.
> Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than
a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you
apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or
immediately thereafter.
++++++++++++++++
I, 38.
o
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ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25,
2009 6:01 am
by ground Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:42 am

P
If oone wants to go from A to B and needs a car for
s
with
the descriptions of color and type of the car
t
that it may be better not to get obsessed

but to take as the relevant measure whether
the car functions in a way that it may take one from A to B. The measure is the progress made
with the car not the wording of the descriptions of color and type of the car.
Kind regards
o
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by Ben Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:02 am
P
o

tiltbillings wrote:
That is what I said, and it is a matter of experience. The notion of "jhana vs vipassana" is not
really meaningful.
Ben
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That is absolutely correct. "jhana vs vipassana" presupposes an assumption that one only
requires only samatha or only vipassana for liberation. That doesn't seem to be supported by
the Suttas, the ancient commentarial literature nor the writings of later scholars. Both
samatha and vipassana support each other - as anyone who has any experience will tell you.
Having said that, there are instances recorded in the suttas of individuals who practice 'dry
insight', however, these individuals still require some samatha to develop sampajjano. THe
commentarial, perhaps Abhidhamma literature, the arising of the sotapanna magga and phala
arise with the jhana factors. So, even if one has not attained first jhana before hand or is not
in the absorption state of jhana when one averts one's attention to the rise and fall of
phenomena (vipassana), jhana occurs with magga and phala of sotapatti. It is one of the
reasons that some vipassana teachers will get their students to try and develop moment-tomoment samadhi, or neighbourhood samadhi before moving to vipassana. Another reason why
this is employed is so that the student is well established in vipassana before they experience
jhana. The experience of real jhana is seductive and without first being established in the
insight exercises of vipassana, one can easily mistake the jhanas as the final goal and be
seduced by the pleasurable state and be stuck there.
Anyone who has had any depth of experience will tell you that both samatha and vipassana are
interdependent and both are indispensible.
kind regards
Ben
No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later.
All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance
in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) Buddhist Global Relief UNHCR
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
o
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JackV
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010
9:19 am

by JackV Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:42 pm
P
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Nibbida wrote:
t
There is no general consensus on this issue. Some teachers recommend jhana first and then
doing vipassana, others recommend dry insight by developing access concentration and using
that to develop insight through vipassana. Both are legitimate and effective ways. I'm not sure
that any one is better than the other. Richard Shankman does a thorough and balanced job of
talking about this in his book The Experience of Samadhi.
My personal preference is to develop jhana first. When the hindrances are held at bay, vipassana
becomes very effective. The development of jhana has many beneficial effects on a person's

mood and attention which carry over into everyday life. Whatever the mind dwells on becomes
the inclination of the mind. However, the most convincing reason for me is that dry vipassana is
notorious for having a difficult time through the tougher insight knowledges, though certainly
not in all people. The emotinal and cognitive effects of jhana can greatly mitigate that. On the
other hand, people can get potentially preoccupied with the bliss and peace of jhana that they
don't go on to do the insight practice needed for awakening. However, with the guidance of a
teacher, this tends not to be a problem.
But to each their own.
Just a quick question on this.

I personally agree with the logic of trying to realise Jhanna before Vipassana. Being able to
focus ones attention for a large period of time will surely make Insight easier or clearer.
My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna? I currently am focusing on the
rise and fall of the abdomen, noting each rise as such and each fall as such. This I know is
considered Vipassana; the temple which instructed me in this method considers it as such. So
can this sytem or method lead to Jhana or is it simply for Insight? This is what always confuses
me.
Initially I was focusing on the sensation of air entering and leaving the nostrils and the
instructor at the temple told me that this is focusing on the air element as opposed to
something else and as such I should - for what of a better word - switch up.
As always, everytime I read any thread on here I get very confused.
Here where a thousand
captains swore grand conquest
Tall grasses their monument.
o
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by daverupa Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:48 pm
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JackV wrote:
t
My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna?
Anapanasati, hands down.

daverupa
Posts: 5319
6:58 pm
protects oneself.
o
p

JackV
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010
9:19 am

by JackV Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:16 pm
P
o
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daverupa wrote:
t
JackV wrote:
My question is though what system of practice leads to Jhanna?
Anapanasati, hands down.
Ok. So what should I focus on during meditation? I'm not sure of these different elements that
the lady at temple was talking about etc. Should I just be mindful of breathing as a whole?
I will still keep on with the Vipassana as well but I have always been aware that my focus,
attention etc could be increased, like a work out of sorts, should I practice anapanasatti.
Can someone advise?
Here where a thousand
captains swore grand conquest
Tall grasses their monument.
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Same thing with "corruptions of insight".