WHAT HAPPENS TO US WHEN WE DIE

Do We 'Go to be with Jesus'?

Do we 'Go to Heaven' as soon as we die?
..from the free commentary which you can download at
http://sites.google.com/site/freecommentary

Summary:
The Bible actually teaches us straightforwardly that we lie in the ground, dead
and buried, as dust and ashes, until the resurrection. It does not teach 'a
resurrection of our spirit' prior to the return of Christ.

There is a great need to set out the evidence from the Bible -- since a host of
counter-theories surround the after-life, e.g. praying to the saints; spiritual
visions of seeing people who have died being taken to heaven by angels;
reports of visions of hell; and spiritist practices of 'consulting the dead'.
And then there are the differing beliefs from other religions which have taken
over the airwaves.
Consequently, the few instances of an apparent 'soul-life' in the Bible, such as
the New Testament parable of Lazarus being taken straight to heaven when he
died, need to be re-evaluated in view of the wealth of other material in the
Bible.

Don't let anything confuse for you the straightforward picture. Let me repeat:
The simplicity of Judaeo-Christian revelation is that when you die, you
are dead, until you are raised to life again. The flesh returns to dust; the
breath returns to the air, all your plans and hopes and thoughts and feelings
stop. God's spirit within you returns to God who gave it, but your own spirit
'falls asleep'.

The Bible is also quite clear that the resurrection won't take place till Christ
returns.

We are in a figurative 'SLEEP' in the ground UNTIL CHRIST

RETURNS
(A full discussion can be found on the free commentary under Questionable
Doctrines\ "Heaven when we die".)

When does man rise?

Job 14:12-15 So man lieth down and riseth not: Till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, Nor be roused out of their sleep. 13 Oh that
thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until
thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and
remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my
warfare would I wait, Till my release should come. 15 Thou wouldest call,
and I would answer thee: Thou wouldest have a desire to the work of thy
 hands.

Where are we until we rise?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in
the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have
done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto
the resurrection of judgment.

When did Jesus say that will be?

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth
the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him
up at the last day... 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that
sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day... 54 He that
eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise
him up at the last day.

Did I hear that correctly?

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the
resurrection at the last day.

When will we be released from Death?

1Co 15:21-23 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall
all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then
they that are Christ's, at his coming... 26 The last enemy that shall be
abolished is death.

Is there any spiritual resurrection beforehand?

1Co 15:52-53 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this mortal must put on immortality.
[The image is of a change of clothes, just as for the new creation]

When do we go to heaven to be with Jesus?

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him... 16 For the
Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be
caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever
be with the Lord.
[Don't assume that you then go into heaven rather than return with Christ
to the earth]

When is our change?

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made
manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we
shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
'SLEEPING' TILL YOU 'AWAKE' -- more examples of plain and
simple death

(Many examples of how the Bible portrays the ideas of death and resurrection,
as being like going to sleep and then waking up, are to be found on the free
commentary under Imagery\ Sleep and Awake)

'Asleep' seems to promise an awakening, later

Deu_31:16 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the
strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will
forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Psa_13:3 Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine

eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psa_76:5-6 The stouthearted are made a spoil, They have slept their
sleep; And none of the men of might have found their hands. 6 At thy
rebuke, O God of Jacob, Both chariot and horse [Exo_15:1] are cast into a
deep sleep.

Isa 43:17 who bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the
mighty man (they lie down together, they shall not rise; they are extinct,
they are quenched as a wick):

Jer_51:39 When they are heated, I will make their feast, and I will make
them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not
wake, saith Jehovah.

Act_7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not
this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Act_8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And there arose on that
day a great persecution against the church which was in Jerusalem; and
they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and
Samaria, except the apostles.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had in his own generation served the
counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw
corruption:

Lying in a grave is pictured as going to bed:

Psa_139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in

Sheol [death], behold, thou art there.

Isa_57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and

merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken
away from the evil to come. 2 He entereth into peace; they rest in their
 beds, each one that walketh in his uprightness.

Eze_32:25 They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her
multitude; her graves are round about her; all of them uncircumcised, slain
by the sword; for their terror was caused in the land of the living, and they
have borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the
midst of them that are slain. ['shame' and 'humility' have the idea of 'low;
in/on the ground/earth/humus]

'NO PRAISE FROM THE GRAVE'

The Bible consistently talks of a state of nothingness after death. (Our hope
should be fixed on resurrection much later.)
(Sheol is 'the world of the dead', but only a world of dust scattered in the soil,
or a watery grave, or a pit for a tomb.)

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall
give thee thanks?

Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit?
Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psa 88:10-12 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall they that are
decreased arise and praise thee? Selah 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be
declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in Destruction? 12 Shall thy
wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of
forgetfulness?

Psa 115:17-18 The dead praise not Jehovah, Neither any that go down
into silence; 18 But we will bless Jehovah From this time forth and for
evermore. Praise ye Jehovah.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for
there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither
thou goest.

Isa 38:18 For Sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: They
that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Hezekiah clings to life, as if death removes life, and knowledge of God is

replaced by nothingness:
Isa 38:10-12 I said, In the noontide of my days I shall go into the gates of
Sheol: I am deprived of the residue of my years. 11 I said, I shall not see
Jehovah, even Jehovah in the land of the living: I shall behold man no
more with the inhabitants of the world. 12 My dwelling is removed, and is
carried away from me as a shepherd's tent: I have rolled up, like a weaver,
my life; he will cut me off from the loom: From day even to night wilt thou
make an end of me.
 THE COMFORTING PICTURE

I find it quite comforting to have a straightforward picture that death may

mean no more than going to Sleep at death, and then waking up with the
Dawn, at the resurrection. This is the imagery used in the Bible:

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from
the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

Perhaps the Apostles will be the watchmen who will wake us up, or perhaps it
will be the voice of the Son of God, but perhaps I don't need to worry about
that.

1Th 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall
together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and
so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with
these words.

I do not know what happens in the spiritual realms of the dead, whether there
are such things or not, etc, or whether I will sleep right through it. But I do
know that common misunderstandings have easy explanations, and we really
do not need to look past a straightforward interpretation, in this case.

This issue is a crucial one, in that the misunderstanding (of living on while you
are dead), is responsible for much confusion, and prevents us each coming to
a clear (and agreed upon!) view of our future hope.

Here is a confusing Bible passage...

'SOUL-LIFE' is wrongly based upon LUKE 16 -- THE PARABLE

OF LAZARUS
(A discussion on this parable can be found in the free commentary under Hell\
Lazarus in Hades)

This parable does not support the idea that you go straight to heaven when
you die, even while it says so.

Luke 16 contains a (Greek) view of Hades as a place of ongoing fiery torment

for dead sinners. Notice that this is not the Bible's view, but something which
Jesus had to tackle head on, when faced with Jewish leaders who denied the
Bible's teaching of resurrection. When you deny the later resurrection, you
have to substitute an immediate journey into the after-life.
The background is that the Sadducees and Herod didn't believe in the
resurrection (nor miracles, nor angels, nor spirits), at least not until Jesus gave
them plenty of cause to wonder. Herod had beheaded John -- and immediately
miracles in Jesus' name multiplied Mat 14:2, so much so that Herod said that
John had been raised from the dead (as Jesus)! Jesus had just anointed his
disciples to go before him with miracles, like raising the dead.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man who had enjoyed feasting, shows
them conversing after death. Its target is the rich Pharisees and the rich king
Herod who had killed poor John the Baptist at a feast. John the Baptist was
killed because he had objected to the adultery of Herod's wife -- which is
exactly the topic immediately before the parable:

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these
things; and they scoffed at him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they that justify yourselves in
the sight of men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is exalted
among men is an abomination in the sight of God. [Herod had killed John
to honour an oath he had taken before his dinner guests]
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the
gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth
violently into it. ['violently seizes' -- John had been imprisoned by the rich
king Herod]
Luk 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
tittle of the law to fall.
Luk 16:18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another,
committeth adultery: and he that marrieth one that is put away from a
husband committeth adultery. [John had been killed at the feast at
Herodias' request, because he objected to her marrying Herod]

The verses about the rich Pharisees are immediately followed by...

Luk 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was
carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also
died, and was buried. 23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Remember that this is a parable, and that parables should be interpreted

carefully. They are not meant to be taken as literally true in their details. The
parable uses Greek imagery (of torments in Hades), for instance. Certainly
Jesus was needling the Pharisees, and perhaps he was turning their own
teaching parable to a new purpose.

The thrust of Jesus' teaching seems to be: 'Belief in Resurrection-resuscitation-

reincarnation will do you no good later, unless you believe in Moses & the
prophets & Christ now'. The point of the parable is not to teach about Heaven
and Hell, but to teach against rejecting Christ's miracles. It points out that they
who reject a true prophet, Jesus, to his face, can hardly be expected to really
believe in Moses or miracles or Hell or Messiah or resurrection; and so all their
talk, about Moses, Hades, Abraham's Bosom, rising from the dead... is just a
front. He is repeating their talk back to them, with the added twist that Moses
himself will reject them.
 Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

The parable is actually quite funny, the way Jesus talks about angels and
miracles and resurrection, to the Resurrection deniers, the Herodians
(Sadducees), the ones who also don't acknowledge the other prophets or
angels, until the main player (the rich man in sumptuous clothes), King Herod,
is positively begging for bodily resurrections! Catch the irony, and the set-up.
'OK, you resurrection deniers, who preach a soul-life instead, if there were
such a life-after-death for the spirit as you say, while we all live on here, then
imagine what such a Jew would have to say when he gets there. He would be
forced into asking for a resurrection, or for a resurrection of someone else. But
he would only be told that he and his kind 'didn't and wouldn't believe in any
such thing', even though it is clearly preached in the prophets.'
There is also a needling of the money-loving, well-dressed, well-fed Pharisees,
in that John was well-known for fasting and wearing animal skins. Picture John
the Baptist (the poor and starving man covered in sores nearby) in the
dungeon nearby while the Pharisees and Herodians feast and demand his
head, and you get the pointed picture.
It requires a conversation between 'dead' people to carry the point -- so don't
push it into a doctrinal thesis, just laugh happily instead.

Moreover this is an isolated occurrence (The references to Hebrew Sheol

(=burial) are a hundred fold more common). We should look carefully to see
what else is being told to us, more straightforwardly, on the topic.

THE SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR

Rev 6:9-10 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar
the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the
testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a great voice, saying,
How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our
blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The Book of Revelation is the one most full of visions and symbolism. The
picture is vivid, the point is valid, but the reality might be more in the
conscience of God, and in His expressing His heart to us.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's
blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood
of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

We don't take these literally, after learning about figures of speech and
needless mysticism, so we shouldn't take 'the voice under the altar' literally
either.
For similar re-evaluations of other suggestive passages, see the full
commentary.
For instance, there is...
Samuel talking to Saul after Samuel's death;
Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
There is also a discussion on...
the non-Biblical practice of praying to the saints
Visions and dreams of what death holds for relatives;
How 'going' to 'Heaven' is a euphemism for 'entering' the kingdom of 'God' on
the renewed earth.

See you at the resurrection,

and not before.