Traditional Education

Table of Content
2010 by Varrama Book Trust (VBT) All Rights Reserved

No part of this book may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system,
or transmitted in any form, by any means, including mechanical,
electronic, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior
written permission of the publisher.
Varrama Book Trust (VBT) wishes to express its gratitude to the
BBT and the Bhaktivedanta Archives for the permission given to use
verses, purports and photos. All these are Bhaktivedanta Book
Trust International, Inc.
First printing (India 2011): 2000 Copies
Printed by the Varrama Book Trust (VBT).
Acknowledgments
Preface
i
iii
v
Introduction
Chapter 1
Interview of Bhakti Rghava Swami
Chapter 2
Interview of Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami
39
Chapter 3
Lecture by Bhakti Vika Swami
77
Chapter 4
Interview of tmatattva Dsa
97
Chapter 5
Interview of Gopparadhana Dsa
129
Chapter 6
Conclusion by Bhakti Rghava Swami
143
Appendix
List & Index of the Interview Questions
149
ISBN: 978-81-920780-1-4
Glossary
151
Interested readers may write to the publisher at:
Index
167
Varrama Book Trust (VBT)

Near Bangaru Gudde School, Bangaru Gudde, Hebri 576 112
Karkala Taluk, Udupi District, State of Karnataka, India
Phone: [91] 9866655902 rvsa Dsa
E-mail: info@iskconvarnasrama.com
VBT Publications
177
www.iskconvarnasrama.com
Acknowledgements
The publishers would like to take this opportunity to thank
warmly all the devotees who made this valuable book possible,
beginning with the five senior disciples of rla Prabhupda who
agreed to be interviewed, and shared their valuable experience
and realizations in regards to traditional education and devotional
life: His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Swami, His Holiness Bhakti
Vidy Pra Swami, His Holiness Bhakti Vika Swami, rman
tmatattva Dsa, and rman Gopparadhana Dsa. These are
all great and unique personalities; it has been an honor to put their
wisdom and guidance on paper.
This book would not have taken place if it was not for the
valuable service of rman Bhagratha Dsa (BRS) who took the
trouble to travel around, conduct the interviews, and transcribe
them, all this while being a full-time student of the rigorous rmadBhgavata Vidypham in r Govardhana.
We also want to express our gratitude to the VBT team who
worked on this project: His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Swami for the
inspiration and for writing the preface, introduction, and conclusion
of the book, Rdhpriy Dev Ds for completing the transcriptions,
rmat Vndvana Ll Dev Ds (BRS), Gaggat Dev Ds (BRS)
and Rsamaala Dsa (BRS) for pre-editing the transcripts, Hdaya
Caitanya Dsa (BRS) for the editing, graphics and layout, and r
Rma Dsa (BRS) for organizing the printing.
We want to express our special appreciation to Guru Ka
Dsa (TKG) for his expert proofreading of the material.
We wish to thank Kiora Dsa (BVKS) and Vidvn Gaurga
Dsa (JPS) for helping with the Sanskrit, Kirticandra Dsa (ACBSP)
for providing pictures, and Prabhu Ntynanda Dsa (BRS) for his
various contributions.
iii
ii
Last but not least, we thank you, the reader, for picking up
this book and showing an interest to this neglected branch of our
mission. Traditional education is very much needed to rectify our
shortcomings in ISKCON, generate leaders, and push this movement
forward with great forcepurity is the force. Without gurukula,
we cannot get standard brhmaas and katriyas; without them
varrama is impossible, without varrama our society will
never be so progressive. We must give our children the best possible
engagement in Ka consciousness. Please help to spread this
important message and, if possible, order some copies of our books
and distribute them in your area.
Thank you.
The Publishers.
Preface
Traditional education is practically a thing of the past,
something that most of us have never even seen, what to speak of
experienced. We are generally ignorant of what it is. The modern
academia speaks about it in negative connotations. Traditional
education is presented as outdated, backward, irrelevant, and even
prejudiced. In the most polite of cases, it is considered to be primitive
civilizations early attempts at education, which eventually led to
our glorious academia of todaywhich supposedly reaches heights
that were never achieved before. Most of us who were molded by
todays modern education were exposed to such propaganda, to some
extent. Our modern conditioning influences us and makes us (even
devotees) apprehensive of traditional education. Such are the effects
of atheism.
In the university where I took up postgraduate studies in
education, just a few years ago, the traditional gurukula system of
India and the traditional pondok pesantren system of Indonesia were
classified as non-formal education. In the Indonesian language, the
specific term for describing these is pendidikan luar sekolah, literally,
education outside of school. Ironically, what today is classified
as education outside of school (non-formal education) was
traditionally the only education taught in the school settings such as
gurukula or pondok pesantren, and was considered formal education.
All other education was outside of school, the equivalent of what
is today called vocational training or apprenticeship (nonformal education). The educational culture has basically done a full
somersault, such that non-formal education is now considered formal,
and formal education considered non-formal. Todays science and
technology promote studies and research that deal primarily with the
advancement of vocational trades (computer and other machineoriented technology) and give less importance to the academic fields
of theology, philosophy, and humanities. How has this come about,
and what kind of results can we expect from it? A substantial portion
of the answer lies in the following statement:
The effects of the Sophists on education necessarily make one
wonder whether it is wise to entrust education to the technicians
rather than the philosophers.
(Pratt, DavidCurriculum: Design and Development)
iv
We have indeed allowed educational policies to be influenced
and dictated by the interests of political leaders, powerful industrial
magnets, technocrats, and scientistsall of whom tend to lack
wisdom and push a different ethos. Due to their materialistic
training, such leaders are ill-motivated, greedy, short-sighted, and
devoid of philosophical or spiritual insight.:
Todays so-called education is actually promoting avidy
(nescience), because the core eternal principles of knowledge are
missing. If an educational system or pursuit is to elevate any human
being, it must be governed by those essential principles. Modern
educators very definition of knowledge and education is flawed,
as well as their aim, because they ignore Ka. Put simply, when
education is used for promoting materialistic pursuits, the result
must be shortcomings and failures, because neither the nature nor
purpose of education is appreciated. In the name of such so-called
education, teachers and students are simply playing a costly game.
As explained by rla Prabhupda:
Unless in the human society the varrama system is introduced,
no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order,
will be successful.
(ConversationVndvana, 18 October 1977)
Where and how we live also shape our education. Sociology and
education go hand in hand. Whatever a society values will dictate its
curricula and education and consequently will shape the future of that
society. Hence it is crucially important to understand the intimate
connection between education and society. And that connection is
relevant not only in the formative years, but all throughout ones
life. As indicated by rla Prabhupda (above), unless we understand
the essence of an ideal society (varrama), any attempt to develop
effective and meaningful educational systems will fail. Moreover,
one must know that, if disconnected from Ka, varrama and its
educational systems will yield only very temporary, material success.
Therefore, to reveal the goal of life and bring about lasting happiness,
education should be based on daiva-varrama. The beneficiary of
such an education will be properly situated both materiality and
spiritually.
Vedntic sociology, or daiva-varrama-dharma, is the most
ideal, most scientific, and most fulfilling educational institution. It
will make one vastly learned, organized, productive, skilled, cultured,
wise, and, ultimately, self-realized.
Persons interested in this subject matter are invited to read the

books of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupda,
in particular the Bhagavad-gt and rmad-Bhgavatam. One may
also correspond with this humble servant of His Divine Grace or
visit our website dedicated to varrama-dharma at:
www.iskconvarnasrama.com
Hare Ka.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
vii
vi
Introduction
Traditional education brings us back to the basics. Readers of
this book will learn from the senior devotees interviewed herein
that education cannot be separated from spirituality, culture, and
philosophy, and that when it iswhether by intent, neglect, or
circumstancesthe result is disastrous.
An education not rooted in spirituality is a fantasy, because
it is not based on reality. The most essential aspect of life is spiritual
existence, or the souls journey toward Ka. At the time of death,
everything but ones spiritual assets is lost; therefore no one is truly
benefited by an education that does not elevate him spiritually.
This may sound fanatical to some, but rla Prabhupda was of the
opinion:
Actually there is no education without spiritual knowledge.
One can learn to earn bread, eat, sleep and mate without a formal
education. Animals are not educatedthey are not technicians,
and they have no university degreesbut they are also eating,
sleeping, mating and defending. If the educational system simply
teaches these processes, it does not deserve the name of education.
Real education enables us to understand what we are. As long
as man does not develop his consciousness by understanding the
truth of the self, all of his actions will be performed in the mode of
ignorance. (The Matchless Gift, chapter 3)
Of course, education should also teach one how to live in this
world, but only in harmony with spiritual ideals. Education must
include both the material and the spiritual dimension of reality; this
is the real meaning of the term holistic education. Actual culture
begins when people respect spiritual beliefs and apply universal
spiritual concepts that are found in almost all of the worlds
religionsbut are precisely defined in the Vedic teachings. That
culture must entail spirituality is the opinion of all great, erudite
sages.
One should know that just as religion cannot be manufactured by
man, dharma tu skd bhagavat-pratam (SB 6.3.19), the principles
of education also cannot be concocted. Until a few hundred years
ago, all throughout the world, whether one studied purely religious
viii
topics or secular topics, the connection with spirituality remained
strong. It was a common understanding that the human form of life
is meant for spiritual upliftment, for realizing the self, not simply
for economic development or gross sense gratification. This was so
because of the still-remaining influence of the Vedas, which have
been given by the Lord Himself. In Vedic culture, this ideology was
promoted widely, not only by saintly persons but also by kings and
their governments. These principles had taken root in al regions
of the world, but due to the influence of Kali-yuga they gradually
dwindled.
Vedic education stressed character formation and spiritual
values, and was fostered by a simple and natural lifestyle. Humans
were taught to keep their material needs basic, and to meet them by
harmonious interaction with nature. They were taught simple living
and high thinking, a truly holistic approach to life. In meeting the
material necessities of life, ryans would not disconnect themselves
spiritually. In fact, all ancient Asian civilizations saw spirit within
matter, and dealt with matter according to spiritual values. An
education without spirituality would have been seen as incomplete
and disconnected.
In Vedic culture, the purpose of education is considered to
be more important than its methodology. Not that methods are
devalued, but the focus of the education is on the ultimate goal. The
primary goal of an education is not to secure employment or a better
position, because the ultimate goal of life is to become free from this
temporary world and to return back to the spiritual world to serve
Ka.
In a Vedic society, ones entire life was considered to be a
learning experience. Life was education, and education was life.
Education began from the moment of conception and would
continue till ones last breath. One would develop his potential of
body, mind, intelligence, and soul (microcosm) so as to contribute
to the development and upliftment of the world (macrocosm).
There is an urgent need to revive a collective understanding
of such principles. Because society has deviated from these pure
concepts, it faces so many calamities. It is our duty to bring this
understanding to the world. We pray that this publication will serve
that end.
Chapter 1
Interview of His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Swami
Conducted by rman Bhagratha Dsa (BRS)
Siem Reap, Kingdom of Cambodia, January 2008
1. What is your understanding of education? Or, according to you,
what constitutes education?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: From stras we understand that education
is the imparting of material and spiritual knowledgebecause reality
encompasses both the material and the spiritual. The explanation
given by rla Prabhupda is knowledge means to know matter and
spirit and the controller of both. (Bg 2.11, purport) The ultimate
goal of that education is self-realization. An education that does not
emancipate one spiritually is not a real education. Todays education,
being limited to the gross material sphere, cannot be accepted as
genuine. In the Bhagavad-gt we find the term rja-vidy, the king
of knowledge. The knowledge of the Bhagavad-gt is eternal, and
Lord Ka speaks in detail about prakti, describing material nature
and its twenty-four elements along with Skhya philosophy. rla
Prabhupda and the previous cryas gave so much importance to
the Bhagavad-gt because it is a complete presentation of both the
spiritual reality and the material energy. One verse in Knowledge of
the Absolute states:
jna te ha sa-vijnam ida vakymy aeata
yaj jtv neha bhyo nyaj jtavyam avaiyate
I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both
phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further
shall remain for you to know. (Bg 7.2)
2. How should we impart education in general society, on the one
hand, and within our ISKCON, on the other?
Traditional Education
Bhakti Rghava Swami
Bhakti Rghava Swami: rla Prabhupda mentioned that if we

do things properly, according to our Vedic scriptures and culture,
education will become simple. The system of varrama, when
understood and applied properly, simplifies education very much.
Education is actually a way of life. The popular saying Education
is life, and life is education, is indeed in line with our philosophy.
In Vedic culture, the system of varrama is itself education, and
it is sometimes described as an educational system. We do not really
need the kind of infrastructures that exists today, with big buildings
and large paid staff. It is no longer education; it has become business.
Education is meant to be given freely to students, as in a gurukula.
The majority of people do not need to attend these large institutions.
Especially devotees should understand their own culture, instead of
blindly rushing in there. They should live in a natural way, as the
Vedic scriptures prescribe. Unless we understand what varrama
is, we will not understand what genuine education is. Education and
varrama are intimately related. We cannot speak of education
without speaking of varrama, and vice versa. When we know
how to live, we know how to educate. There is a specific class, the
brhmaas, who arrange education. Vedic education is given within
varas and ramas, and the brhmaas play a role in both. It is a
very simple process of unlimited scope.
In modern society, we have a very complicated system of
education because it has deviated so much. In Vedic culture, certain
thingssuch as knowledge, land, or foodare free. Some exchange
might be there, but generally food is distributed for free. When we
lose the spiritual perspective, everything becomes abnormal. We use
the same wordseducation, knowledge, developmentbut they mean
something completely different. Development is an important word
in modern society, but it points solely to market growth and things
like that. In Vedic culture, the same word invariably implies spiritual
development.
Bhagratha Dsa: Your Holiness mentioned that real education is

to study spirit and matter, and is imparted for free, with basically
no salary for teachers. But in some places in ISKCON, the students
are required to pay for courses, like bhakti-str, etc. Could Your
Holiness comment on this?
Bhagratha Dsa: And education within our own society?

Bhakti Rghava Swami: Within ISKCON, education will become
natural and tangible when we apply the system of varrama.
The few educational institutions that we have in ISKCON mostly
fall outside of varrama. In some instances, they are practically
parallel to modern education, which may cause us to lose sight of
our real purpose. When basic principles are not applied, education
loses potency. For example, we often bypass the key requirement that
students and teachers should live together.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: No, the student should not pay. In the Vedic
system, knowledge was not treated like a commodity; it is not a
business. There should be some kind of exchange or reciprocation
some variety of servicebut not a business fee. The atmosphere
should be that only those qualified deserve to receive education, not
everyone who pays.
Education has five components. The first is its definitionit
is mandatory for education to cover the knowledge of both matter
and spirit. It should guide one toward self-realization, not simply
give a bhakti-str degree. Although the subject matter is primarily
spiritual, the definition of knowledge extends to the phenomenal as
well.
The next component is disposition, the mentality in which one
is giving or receiving education. The teacher and student must be in
the right mood.
The third criterion is the delivery of knowledge. It points to the
atmosphere in which the knowledge is given. It should be sttvika,
away from congested places. The student must live with the teacher
and serve him. There must be exchanges based on love. These things
have to be in place for the teacher to develop the character of the
student.
Fourth is the design of the education, the curriculum. The
knowledge given should have its roots in the stras. One of the
important activities of brhmaas is to expertly extract material and
spiritual teachings from stras. Any material not from our scriptures
is not desirable. If we take all types of karm or nondevotional books,
it is almost as good as having a karm teacher. So it goes without
saying that our teachers should be devotees.
And the last criterion is the direction or purpose of the
knowledge. Nothing should be done for mundane objectives. Even
if somebody learns something material, it is not for a material gain.
Of course we can learn some practical science or some skills for
Kas service, but for this we do not need much formal education,
especially for skills. We can say that one practically does not need to
go to school for that kind of education.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
Bhagratha Dsa: Some people may argue that if students do not pay
for their education, it will be difficult to continue these activities
and meet the basic expenses like electricity, etc.
be done, or lament about the difficulty of its implementation, but

the fact will remain that unless we take it up, we will continue to
have all these problems.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Yes, it is true that there are inherent

expenses that should be coveredbut not by the students. This
question comes up because we have an artificial system. We are
not following the system of varrama, wherein, first of all, only
qualified students get that kind of education. Within varrama it
is clearly understood that individuals are not all of the same ability.
Traditional gurukulas are supported by donations or, as in our
case, by our society somehow. Education is meant to be supported
by governments and leaders. Of course, todays governments will
not support our kind of traditional education. Even in the case of
modern education, in most countries the budget is much less than
what they put into military force, commerce, research on technology,
etc. Since countries have bad leaders, adequate provisions are not
made. ISKCON should understand this crucial need and provide good
facilities, but only for those who are qualified.
3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system?
The problem is that we are not applying the system of varrama,

nor thus far have we clearly understood how to introduce it, although
we are trying in a few rare places. If we introduce it, all these issues
how to give good education, how to maintain our families, how to
protect the weak, how to develop tight communities, etc.will be
solved practically. Nowadays, if one does not have a job, he cannot
function. He needs a place to stay, needs food, and needs to buy
some things. But a devotee living within varrama greatly reduces
his material requirements. When we are self-sufficient, cultured, and
satisfied with the basics, education enters a new dimension. As long
as we continue to follow the artificial system, and not varrama,
we will have to face problems for which there are no artificial
solutions. The answers will come only when we apply varrama in
connection to Ka. This is the only complete solution.
One may ask the recipe for happiness, but when he is told that
it is obtained only by devotional service, he then gives all kinds
of excuses. But that does not change the reality. The bottom line
remains that devotional service is the sole way to happiness, and that
it can to be practiced in any material circumstance. In the same way,
within this material world, the only system that will properly meet
both the material and spiritual needs of a community is varrama.
One may give so many excuses, find so many reasons why it cannot
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Modern education focuses on speculative,

gross material knowledge. They have removed the spiritual dimension
from their definitions of knowledge. And education has become a
big business. Many people, mostly those without qualification, are
making big money out of it. Teachers are generally bereft of the nine
qualities of brhmaas, and thus they are neither materially nor
spiritually fit to teach. Neither are the students qualified, because
they are studying for wrong reasons. The majority of students in
todays colleges and universities are not fit to study formally in an
institution, according to the natural varrama system. But these
days, if you do not have a university degree, nobody will give you
a good job. Therefore people are studying the wrong things for the
wrong purposesto maintain or increase the so-called comforts of
modern life. The sole aim of technology is to increase this so-called
good life. Education is on the wrong track; its purpose is lost. Those
who are in charge of modern education have hijacked it for economic
goals under the pressure of governments, industrial lobbies, and their
investors. The main fault of the modern approach is that it is devoid
of spirituality, and thus the ultimate target of a bona fide education
is missed.
The majority of colleges and universities are in congested cities.
They provide so-called education in that passionate atmosphere. In
addition, they allow co-education, where boys and girls sit together.
Some time back I was reading that previously in India, as soon as
young girls reached the age of puberty, their parents would take them
out of school, to avoid promiscuity or unwanted pregnancy. Even in
the West, until recently, they also were careful about that. In Vedic
tradition, going further back to the root, the education for girls was
altogether different, because women assume different occupations
or roles in society. That is a complete topic in itselfcontroversial
as well. Most of our devotees do not understand this aspect clearly.
We read in the stras that women are basically not meant to take
up any vara or profession. They have their own vara, so to speak.
Because we have deviated so much for so longand do not live
according to varrama at allit is no longer so obvious, no longer
understood. It is rejected by many because they are attached to the
Bhakti Rghava Swami
modern paradigm and lifestyle, which is far from the Vedic standard.
By the way, Vedic culture is not confined merely to spiritual practice;
it also includes a practical lifestyle that facilitates sdhana. Living in
an atmosphere conducive to spiritual life is the Vedic norm. In Vedic
times, there were cities, of course, but those were not like the cities
we have nowadays. Those cities were meant for a small percentage
of the population and were more conducive to spiritual life. The
majority did not live in cities, but in villages. Everyone followed the
varrama system.
The biggest shortcoming is the absence of qualified teachers
and qualified students. Basically, there are no brhmaas and no
clear understanding of education and its purpose.
Bhagratha Dsa: You mentioned that girls are not meant to take up
education, nor any vara, as boys do. But what about our Vaiava
mtjs? Some of them are doing very well in writing, etc. Would
that mean that if they do not receive an education, they would not
be able to develop or improve their skills?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Well, rla Prabhupda was not against
having young Vaiavs learn to read and write, to the contrary. He
did send young girls to gurukula, in some cases. To a large extent that
was because of the way we are living now. So again, it comes back
to the same thing: as long as we do not have a proper social system
in place, we will have to adjust constantly, and create artificial
situations for both boys and girls. That, in essence, is the problem.
We keep adjusting this or that, but it is not the true solution. We
must understand that the only valid system is that which has been
given by Lord Kacalled varrama, wherein life is much
simpler and the goal of life is not mere economic development, but
spiritual advancement for everyone. We are so remote from that
ancient system that we think it is impossible to reintroduce it. But
it is possible, if devotees are dedicated, and if they realize that by
failing to do so we will perpetuate our problems in ISKCON.
It is not that women would not get any education. They would
be well educated at home, by the elder women, and later on by their
husbands. For example, the wives of brhmaas would know so many
things because they associate with their husband, and usually they
would have come from that kind of background. A brhmaa should
marry a girl from a brhmaa family. It is not that someone born in
a brhmaa family is by default a brhmaa, but it naturally follows
that they will learn so many related things. As long as we continue
with the artificial system, which is a deviation, we will continue to
suffer its complexities. We may feel that we need to maintain the

same kind of education for both men and women, but that is not the
original system. If we give due consideration to the proper system,
as given in the stras, we will easily understand the respective
education meant for men and women, and that will enable us to
gradually apply it. There are two categories of systems: Vedic (and
natural) on one hand, and artificial on the other. We are living
artificially both in modern society and also in ISKCON. As long as
we remain there, we will continue to bang our heads against the wall.
We should try to understand how to make amends and return to the
natural system of varrama. As long as we continue working in
bogus ways, we will never find answers. Best is to concentrate on
the natural way, and thereby the answers to all such questions will
automatically be revealed by Kas grace.
It is not that because we are devotees and belong to ISKCON,
we have no need for varrama. Varrama is not simply for
nondevotees; it is for everyone, especially the devotees. Many
devotees claim that they understand the system but are above it,
since Vaiavas are above brhmaas. In a narrow sense, that is
true. However, even though we are Vaiavas, we still need a social
system! So we take Kas social system, with its natural divisions
brhmaa, katriya, vaiya, and dra. When varrama is in place,
all of these different doubts, about the role of this one or that one,
will be clarified. If we analyze the devotee population, we see that
the majority are not preachers, are not well versed in stras, and
are not brhmaas by occupation. The majority of our devotees are
simply not brhmaas in that sense. They are meant to maintain
themselves by alternative varas. Some are meant to administer,
some to cultivate land, and the majority should support the three
other positions. Because we do not have those categories in place,
to offer proper alternatives, devotees are trying to adjust within the
demoniac system.
4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its

knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of education?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: The main weakness is that our devotees lack
proper understanding of even the basic concepts of varrama. They
are not making sufficient endeavor to study it; they are too involved
in maintaining bodily comforts. The majority of our devotees
are caught up in the cities, and generally our leaders are not, for
whatever reasons, giving attention to the aspect of varrama. Some
Bhakti Rghava Swami
devotees are of the opinion that it is not so relevant or important.

We have a general lack of qualified brhmaas. And varrama can
be implemented only under the guidance of qualified brhmaas.
It is ironic, because rla Prabhupda established our society to
train brhmaas, with the understanding that once we have some
brhmaas, the resti.e., the katriyas, vaiya, and draswill
manifest by their teachings.
promotes brahminical culture; brhmaas who are thus maintained

lead us in the right direction. The cows and the land are two of
the seven natural mothers, but nowadays people do not understand
their value. Because we have deviated from that natural lifestyle, we
have created huge ecological problems around the globe. So there is
a need for our leadersand also our rank-and-file devoteesto use
their abilities and dive deeper into varrama.
Some attempts are being made, not that nothing is happening,
and a few good things are coming up. A few of our leaders are working
to set up varrama communities. But the figure is small, and we need
more of them. Because of the way we have been brought up, devotees
are conditioned by a variety of modern lifestyles. Consequently, we
should increase our efforts to understand varrama, and present
seminars to the devotees. We need more of our leaders to join us
and help establish such communities, just like rla Prabhupda,
who wanted to personally demonstrate varrama by becoming
localized something I myself would love to do, become localized.
We need some of our leaders to take this road. In his later days, rla
Prabhupda himself wanted to do it, and by his example, to guide
different communities. He understood that they needed direction.
He wanted to demonstrate this culture to the devotees. We now need
some of our leaders to set examples.
Another weakness is what we could call dra phobia

devotees are afraid to be identified as dras. But a dra is not
unqualified not at all. He is an ryan. To be part of the varrama
system in any capacity requires good qualifications. There is such a
thing we call qualified dra. When we read the description given
by Nrada Muni, in the Seventh Canto of rmad-Bhgavatam, he
mentions the qualities of all the varas, including the dras. They
should be obedient, attentive to their work, honest, and so on. That
is all within the varrama system, but unfortunately the word
dra became pejorative.
Then there is the fact that in the past we had problems within
our gurukulas. So we have become afraid and reluctant to again
promote gurukulas. We became like someone who, because he burned
his hand on a flame as a child, remains for the rest of his life afraid
of cooking. That is not desirable. We should not have that kind of
mentality. We should learn from our mistakes, understand where we
deviated from the standard, be careful not to repeat these errors,
and properly move forward. We should understand that without
establishing gurukulas, we will not get qualified humansneither
brhmaas, katriyas, nor brahmacrs. Without them, we can forget
about varrama! How many gurukulas do we have in ISKCON?
We can probably count them on one hand. A real gurukula follows
the traditional system, teaches the subjects from stras, and has
a boarding system, not a day school. A day school is not standard.
It may be temporarily allowed, but the recommended standard is
gurukula. And againand this is an important pointuntil we
have an agrarian society in place, all of these Vedic subtleties will
not have much meaning for us. We cannot sustain success unless
we become agrarian based, unless we understand the importance of
cows in society, unless we grow our own food. That is an intrinsic,
fundamental part of Vedic culture. Then, supporting brhmaas
and gurukulas becomes much easier. And we can see how everything
is connected: the land is intimately connected to the cows; food
is connected to the land; freedom gained from food prosperity
5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education?

Bhakti Raghava Swami: We have already touched on that somewhat.
We need to deepen our knowledge of varrama and see how it is
intrinsically connected with education. We need to facilitate and
support our devotees in the field of varrama education. We must
take major steps in that direction. There are devotees willing to get
involved, but not much support is given to them.
rla Prabhupda established ISKCON primarily to create a
class of qualified brhmaas. Such brhmaas will understand and
gradually introduce traditional Vedic education, starting with its
basic principles. Five basic concepts must be in place: (1) the proper
definition of education, (2) the proper disposition of teachers and
students, (3) the proper delivery of such an education (which should
avoid modern patterns, like urban location, the mixing of genders,
or anything that increases the influence of the lower modes), (4)
the design of curricula exclusively from Vedic sources, and (5) the
direction of the educational pursuits, toward spiritual realization. To
rectify education, we need dedicated brhmaas who will live by and
teach according to these principles.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
In order for this revolution to take place, rla Prabhupda

stressed the need to establish gurukulas as well as varrama colleges.
The correcting of discrepancies found in modern education calls for
major reforms. Change will be possible only when we have qualified
leaderskatriyaswho can appreciate, support, and implement
the brahminical standards of Vedic education. These two classes of
leaders, the brhmaas and the katriyas, are missing in the secular
world, and to a large extent are rare even within ISKCON.
For introducing this type of education, practical models of
rural varrama communities are required. A simpler lifestyle,
connected with land, cows, and traditional technologies, greatly
fosters the application of Vedic principles. At this point in time,
the effect that we can have on general education is very limited. We
can first introduce such changes within ISKCON, by creating model
communities congenial with the implementation of traditional
education. Such an approach will gradually bring about reform.
We first begin in our own house, then we introduce this culture to
others. We first create a few models, and later expand to society at
large. Changes in the educational practices themselves must also
come via education. This is done through proper theory and strong
implementation. Most devotees will never understand varramarelated topics simply through theory. But if we implement it even on
a small scale, realizations will come easily.
The Bhaktivedanta College in Belgium, and the Rpnuga College,

headed by Dnvra Mahrja,1 are good examples of this. Although
that is very much needed, rla Prabhupdas idea was to make
varrama colleges.
We should have some institutions where we teach devotees
not only how to become pjrs and preachers, but also how to
become good teachers of culture, good administrators, good farmers,
good artists, according to their propensities. We need to introduce
seminars and courses. His grace Anuttam Dsa is giving seminars,
at different venues, on leadership. This is a good startwe need to
train people in that waybut ultimately we need to go far beyond
that point. From the brhmaas and katriyas, no doubt the rest
will come, but we also need farmers for basic prosperity. Therefore,
some brhmaas should learn farming so as to teach it, at least until
the whole vaiya culture is in place. The brhmaas should also be
acquainted with the principles of dra worknot that they will
perform such work, but to teach dras how to perform their duties
in the proper devotional spirit. Some may argue that dras learn
their arts from other dras. Yes, ideally that is how it would be done,
but the dras were also directed by brhmaas. From the brhmaas,
they would especially learn how their arts connect to the Lord.
Brhmaas are the teachers for all varas. It is not that a dra will
become a teacher in the gurukula. No. Rather, he becomes a teacher
in his own field, by his own example. And just as a brhmaa can
understand the field of a dra, he likewise can support the work
of a vaiya. So everything is going on under the good guidance of
qualified brhmaas. Land, cows, gurukulas, and brhmaas are the
pillars of varrama. Where in our society can we see land, cows,
trained brhmaas, and a gurukula all combined? We are so weak in
that respect!
Furthermore, our duty is not to only protect the cows within our
own goalas, but to protect all of Kas cows in general. Kas
cows means every cow on the planet. We should feel responsible
for each and every cow, even those that do not directly belong to
us, since they all belong to Ka. We should be concerned about
whatever is dear to Ka. These are the very basic things, the
fundamentalsland, cows, brhmaas, and gurukula. We urgently
need these. Without gurukulas and proper training, we will never
have qualified brhmaas.
10
6. What are the pillars of a varrama society?

Bhakti Rghava Swami: rla Prabhupda explained that the
foundation of a varrama society is land and cows. We should
understand the need for growing food and protecting cows. Land
and food are fundamental in this world. Without food we cannot
live, and without cows we practically cannot live as devotees, for the
brhmaas would not be able to perform their offerings. Without
cows we also cannot have temples, because to install and worship
deities of the Lord we need cow productsghee, milk, etc. So
varrama stands on cow protection and cultivation of land. That
will provide a proper atmosphere and facilities for the brhmaas
to work as they are supposed to. The brhmaas are able to give
direction to the whole society. To establish varrama in our
present situation, we should first protect cows and brhmaas. The
qualified brhmaas are the brain, and they come from gurukulas.
We do have a few schools and educational institutions in our society
that focus on training brhmaasmostly in relation to bhakti.
11
1. Both are educational institutions run by ISKCON. The Bhaktivedanta College gives
government-accredited diplomas in theology and the Rpnuga College is a seminary for
brahmacrs in Texas, USA.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
7. Can varrama communities be established in our present, modern

society?
is because we are constantly exposing ourselves to my! To a large

extent, we are in this condition because we do not live a simple life.
We live in cities full of greed and lust, and we passively accept that
degraded situation. Devotees then find it hard to maintain even basic
standards of devotional service. Even during Prabhupdas time, not
all devotees strictly followed the principles of Ka consciousness.
Unfortunately, we find still that many second-initiated devotees
are not following the four regulative principles. What should we
expect? If we do not follow strictly, we will not get the desired result,
nor understand varrama. We will not make proper decisions
within our society. We will not have proper relationships, and
that will remain a big problem. That is all due to our lack of Ka
consciousness. Unless we hear, and put into practice what we have
heard, we will fall short. We must realize the importance of regularly
hearing rmad-Bhgavatam, of sdhu-sanga, of chanting, and
of every other aspect of devotional service. This was discussed in
yesterdays Bhgavatam class:
12
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Yes, because varrama is the natural

system. Kas system applies at all times. This does not mean that
all the cities have to be evacuated, but the majority of people are
meant to live in the country, because they are meant to be connected
with land and cows. It is possible, although some people may say that
the situation is irreversible. Devotees know that if we do not take
the necessary steps to change the situation, Ka will take care of
it in another wayby force, by His various potencies. Nowadays we
see many calamities caused by naturebad reactions. Nature is not
behaving normally because we are not following dharma. Recently I
was reading that every time a cow is killed there are heavy reactions
in the atmosphere. Whenever sinful activities are committed, the
whole atmosphere becomes polluted. Because we have deviated so
much, we hear dogs howling all the time!
Basically we have deviated from two things: the path of
bhagavat-dharma and the path of varrama-dharma. We do not
understand devotional service, nor human sociologyand both are
related. Because we have deviated from these two dharmas, we have
created hellish conditions. Peoples minds are so polluted! Therefore,
we see so many catastrophes happening. The only solution is to
reintroduce these two dharmas. In Kali-yuga, varrama-dharma
can be reintroduced only on the strength of bhagavat-dharma, by
Lord Caitanyas mercy. rla Prabhupda said that we should start
first by establishing model communities in ISKCON, and that the rest
of the world would eventually come to understand its value by our
example. So yes, it is possibleby faith in Ka, and by knowledge,
enthusiasm, patience, and determination.
8. Why are the principles of varrama-dharma not so easily
understood?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Well, because it is Kali-yuga, mand
sumanda-matayo manda-bhgy hy upadrut (SB 1.1.10), our ability
to understand scriptures is very poor. rla Prabhupda mentions
that if at least a small percentage of the societyeven as little as
one percenttakes up Ka consciousness, things will be fine.
He said that one percent is enough to show the example to society.
But to find that one percent is so difficult. We do not understand
mainly because we are not strong in Ka consciousness, and that
13
sdhu-saga nma-krtana bhgavata-ravaa

mathur-vsa r-mrtira raddhya sevana
One should associate with devotees, chant the holy name of the
Lord, hear rmad-Bhgavatam, reside at Mathur and worship the
Deity with faith and veneration. (Cc. Madhya 22.128)
If we are regulated in those devotional activities, there will be
no real difficulty. rla Prabhupda wanted our society to be very
dedicated and serve as a good example for otherscra, upacra,
and sadcra. Without sadcra, or good behaviorfollowing the
principlesone will not be situated in the mode of goodness, what
to speak of pure goodness. Regulative principles are fundamental to
varrama.
In his Essay on Gt-ngar, rla Prabhupda explains that
his mission is fourfold, varrama being one of the four branches.2
Most devotees are ignorant of this strategic division into four areas
which does not help. rla Prabhupdas fourfold strategy was the
Sakrtana movement, the Deity worship movement, the Spiritual
initiation movement, and the Varrama movement. Most devotees
have never even heard of this. Not being clear about something so
fundamental is like being intoxicated. When we are not fixed in
consciousness, we deviate and thus miss the point about varrama.
Varrama is meant to facilitate devotional service; it gives an
2. This strategy of rla Prabhupda is discussed in details by Bhakti Rghava Swami in his
book Make Vndvana Villages. See other publications of the VBT on page 177.
14
accurate lifestyle and teaches human interaction. It has a very

positive effect on devotional service, especially for neophytes.
Bhagratha Dsa: rla Prabhupda said, We dont want cities,3
but in ancient times there were cities. Can you please clarify this
point? What did Prabhupda mean?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Yes, there were cities in the past, and
Prabhupda spoke of them. But those cities were few in number, less
populated, and meant primarily for the katriyas administration.
In the city, the katriya displays opulencehas palaces, lives
with his entourage, etc. He maintains an army, a court, and other
infrastructures of governance. The katriya needs servants (dras)
and advisors (brhmaas); the vaiyas will naturally come for
business. But producing food, and prosperity, was done outside of
the city. So cities are mainly for katriyas, to show their opulence and
to offer protection. But modern cities are not at all like the Vedic
cities. When we read descriptions of Vedic cities, like Hastinpur,
Dvrak, or Indraprastha, we understand that they were Ka
conscious cities. Still, we should understand that the majority of
people are not meant to live in cities, but in the country, and to
engage or assist in agriculture. We should avoid life in the demoniac
cities of today, where you cannot even breathe properly. There are
so many kinds of pollutionsair pollution, noise pollution, mind
pollution, etc. And we do not need all these cities. In the Kingdom of
Cambodia, how many cities can we count? Basically, there are only
three citiesof course, things are changing. In many places in Asia,
the majority still lives in the country. They have their own land, just
as we see here in Cambodia. I spoke with local students and came to
know that most of them still have land and cows back home. All of
them have six or seven brothers and sisters, because when one has
land and cows it is a great asset to have many children. If you have
land, you do not need to worry about having food for the children.
But villagers are now attracted by the propaganda for city lifeearn
some money, get a motorbike, buy a cell phone, become modern, etc.
Many farmers who have sold their land and cows are now suffering.
It is very sad to see. What is the result? The two boys we saw begging
yesterday, walking around with folded hands and asking people to
give them something.
3. Prabhupda: There will be no city. We dont want cities.
Bhagavn: What about our city temples?
Prabhupda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there
will be no necessity. (Morning WalkRome, May 1974)
Bhakti Rghava Swami
15
9. Why did rla Prabhupda instruct, First vara, then rama?

Bhakti Rghava Swami: Because ones vara will determine ones
rama. If one is a brhmaa by nature, then all four ramas are
open for him. A brhmaa is meant to be trained as a brahmacr, but
the brahmacr-rama is technically not for the dra-vara. So the
vara determines the possibilities in rama. That is Vedic culture.
The natural disposition, ones natural ability, must be ascertained.
In the Vedic system, if one is brahminical and intellectual he will be
encouraged to attend school. If one does not have those qualities,
he will be directed to learn some skill. Everything being within the
scope of Ka consciousness, there will ultimately be no difference
between the two varas, even though ones activities are tailored to
his nature. So brhmaas must first guide students toward their vara.
Unless one knows the vara, he cannot ascertain the appropriate
rama.
Bhagratha Dsa: But why did rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat
hkura first introduce arama?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Well, one has to analyze the history. rla
Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat was following in the footsteps of his
father, rla Bhaktivinoda Thkura, who wanted to restore standard
Vaiavism, because the philosophy of rmad-Bhgavatam was no
longer understood correctly. There were so many people, including
Vaiavas, who had deviated at that timemany sahajiys and
apasampradyas. There was an ongoing debate between the
brhmaas and Vaiavas. rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat had
to give an extended philosophical presentation to prove the
superior position of the devotee over the brhmaa. This led him
to reintroduce tridai-sannysa and brahminical culture, Gyatr,
etc., within Vaiavism, because most people did not respect
Vaiavas and could not understand that devotees are essentially
already brhmaas. If they saw that someone wore the brhmaa
thread, they would understood his position; if they saw a sdhu with a
daa, they would consider him very important. But actually, that is
secondary. In this way, rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat reintroduced
the practice of rama, in the context of introducing the Vaiava
way of life, which parallels brahminical culture. This is one aspect.
The other is that we are looking back some eighty years. At
that time in India, society was not so degraded; people were mostly
situated in their vara. They were already practicing their varas,
but not spiritual development, which entails the ramas. Different
Bhakti Rghava Swami
cryas introduce the culture depending upon the need of their

contemporary society. That rla Bhaktisiddhnta introduced this
rama practice does not mean that he gave less importance to or
neglected the varas. In other words, during those days the varas
were more easily understood than today. The farther we drift from
varrama, the more crucial it becomes to elucidate the varas.
We should note that rla Prabhupda also first introduced the
brahmacr, sannysa, and ghastha-aramas, because he began with
the brhmaa-vara. So it is not that he started with the ramas,
but with the most important vara, which happens to entail all four
ramas. In a general way, he spoke about the four varas extensively,
and in regard to different projects like New Vndvana or Gtnagar, he also introduced farming and other basic activities. Even
today, to a large extent ISKCON continues to train people primarily
as brhmaas, but we should not limit our society to the category of
brhmaa; we must go beyond. A society is not comprised only of
brhmaas; indeed, true brhmaas are actually very rare. All the
limbs of the body are neededhead, arms, stomach, and legsbut
the brhmaas are the key for attracting and training the rest of the
varrama society.
without speaking about education, and vice versa. If we plan for

varrama, and understand that education is present within this
varrama, we do not need anything else.
16
10. What is the relationship between varrama and education?

Bhakti Rghava Swami: They are intimately connected. We need
to see varramathe system of varas and ramasas itself
an educational institution. This is the most complete institution,
because it includes formal, informal, and non-formal education. The
formal education within varrama is gurukula, for those who are
intellectually inclined. Because they are intellectuals, they study
and teach what is important in varrama. Advanced education
is found in the gurukula because it has both trained teachers and
qualified students. Later on, many students become teachers. And
a teacher always remains a student, reaching for deeper knowledge.
According to ones abilities, he studies and teaches various material
and spiritual topics. We should not misunderstand that gurukulas
are restricted to teaching only par vidya. Some students will be
inclined toward one aspect; others will need to learn something
else. For instance, katriyas will concentrate on learning Dhanurveda. According to the available brhmaas, different gurukulas will
offer different subject matter. But all topics that are taught formally,
whether material or spiritual, are taught by brhmaas. Varrama
and education are closely related; we cannot speak of varrama
17
Bhagratha Dsa: What do you mean by varrama is itself an

educational institution? Please kindly elaborate.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Complete and perfect education leads to
self-realization. That is the ultimate purpose. Varrama nurtures
self-realization, taking into consideration a persons material
conditioning. We are conditioned by our present material body.
According to our gu, we are either a brhmaa, katriya, vaiya, or
dra. This is determined by our previous karma. We are born under
a certain combination of the modes of naturealthough even that
can be purified. It is not that we are promoting that according to
ones birth he is a rubber-stamped brhmaa or dra for his entire
lifetime. Still, the modes of nature strongly influence the conditioned
soul from the moment of conception. Right from a childs birth, one
can observe the modes of nature acting upon him. Varrama takes
into account the modes of an individual and, through the ramas,
elevates him above the modes to Ka consciousness. This is perfect
education.
Vara should be seen as aptitude-based learning; this is a very
important concept. Aptitude-based learning leads to aptitude-based
occupation. If I have an intellectual talent, I can study in a gurukula,
and in time I will become a paita. My aptitude-based learning at the
gurukula will give me the aptitude-based occupation of a brhmaa.
That is the consideration of vara. If I cannot study stra but can work
manually, I will be directed by seniors to the appropriate situation.
I will learn a skill, and my aptitude-based learning will lead me to
be, for example, a good carpenter, my aptitude-based occupation.
That is non-formal education, or vocational training. In the case of
a brhmaa, education is formal, because it takes longer to complete
intellectual studies based on stra. Still, in both cases education
takes place. Formal education is for the special few who have the
aptitude to become dvijas. But whether one is a brhmaa, katriya,
vaiya, or dra, each will have a suitable education. The education
is formal relative to the degree of ones intellectual capacity. The less
one is talented for stra, the less formal his education will be. The
principle is always that aptitude-based learning leads to an aptitudebased occupation.
On the other hand, the ramas address ones lifelong
education. From childhood until deathall throughout lifewe
Bhakti Rghava Swami
should advance spiritually. Arama addresses spiritual education in

a natural sequence of four phases. It facilitates spiritual elevation.
First, the brahmacr strives to control his senses, to serve, and to
perform austerities. He acquires the fundamental qualities of human
existencecleanliness, austerity, honesty, and discipline. This
will help them throughout life. In youth, the ability to study and
memorize is greater, so it is the perfect time to study, learn culture,
and associate with other sdhus. A brahmacr can either remain
so or chose to marry. Ghastha is also an rama. A ghastha is not
someone who cannot control his senses, but one whose realizations
are not yet mature and who needs more facilities than the lifelong
brahmacr, who has no strong emotional need. Those needing some
material comforts move on to householder life, but their spiritual
elevation continues. rla Prabhupda explains that this temporary
concession allows regulated sense gratification, whereas a lifelong
brahmacr does not need that. If a young man has that need, he
enters the ghastha-rama. That is not a problem, but rather, a fit
solution in the long run. With its rules and regulations, the ghastharama will gradually free him, but therein it takes relatively longer
to become self-controlled. When one enters the vnaprastharama, it is a bit like again becoming a brahmacr, but this time
with firm realizations. Then, for completing ones purification, there
is the sannysa-rama. If someone can immediately take to pure
devotional service, he does not need to follow the ramas, but rare
are those who are truly so capable. For the great majority, that stage
is simply phantasmagoria; we do not have the disposition of pure
devotees capable of constantly chanting Hare Ka. Sometimes
devotees naively ask if we really need all these formalities, since
we are devotees and only need to chant Hare Ka. But to be a
Vaiava, as rla Prabhupda points out, is not a cheap thing, not
as easy as we would like it to be. Therefore, we need these cultural
supports. Both the varas and the ramas educate us for ultimately
attaining that stage.
Real education teaches us how to utilize material energy in the
Lords servicebecause we are embodiedand thereby progress
spiritually. This is to be done according to the degree of our sense
control. That sensitivity makes varrama a complete system of
education, accessible to all. So when we separate varrama from
education, or vice versa, immediately something goes amiss. Within
Vedic standards, we cannot have one without the other. Modern
educators do not know about varrama. The spiritual dimension of
education is completely absent, and even their material approaches
are off target. They do not teach how to live, how to relate, how to
see every woman as mother, etc. All of that is missing. Therefore
everything is chaotic and upside down, and as a result we get so
many abnormal people!
18
19
11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jna, abhideya, and

prayojana in relation to varrama and education, respectively.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Sambandha has to do with identities and
their relationships. This concept of relationship is twofold. The
first perspective defines the spirit soul, the spiritual dimension of
life beyond matter, and our spiritual identity as an eternal servant
of Ka. The other gives an understanding of our material
conditioning, i.e., to understand what we have picked upor carried
alongwhen we came into this body, what we have accumulated
from our previous lives, which caused us to be here today. We need
to understand our identity both materially and spiritually. The
revelation of our vara, according to our natural inclinations, and
the subsequent identification of the most suitable rama for us,
constitutes sambandha-jna in relation to varrama. First we
ascertain the vara, then the rama. Sambandha-jna is to know
our spiritual and material position within the varrama system.
That in itself determines the type of education we should receive,
because education is intimately connected to varrama.
Then comes abhideya, or activity. Once we comprehend our
situation, the next logical step is appropriate action. Because we are
conditioned, we do not know how to act in this world. According to
our gus, the occupation of either a brhmaa, katriya, vaiya, or
dra will be recommended, along with the corresponding education.
In the same manner, we will advance spiritually within the ramas
by performing the prescribed activities for each stage.
Last is prayojana, or the goal. The quality of the application
(abhideya) of what we have learned (sambandha) determines where
we end up (prayojana). In the context of varrama, the goal is to
become either a perfect brhmaa, perfect katriya, perfect vaiya,
or perfect dra, and perfect brahmacr, ghastha, vnaprastha,
or sannysa. Within the ramas, we should gradually become
an ideal human being; that is the material perspective. From the
spiritual point of view of daiva-varramasince we are practicing
Vaiavismwe should end up perfect devotees. Daiva-varrama
is a system that centers on devotional service to Ka. When we add
bhakti, the system of vara and rama becomes perfect; it becomes
Bhakti Rghava Swami
sdhana. Our cryas teach that we cannot jump to bhva-bhakti

or prema-bhakti; we cannot come to these elevated stages unless
we follow sdhana-bhakti. We become perfect through sdhana
sdhana-siddha. The majority of people should progress through
varrama, to be properly situated materially and spiritually. These
are the principles of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana in relation
to that varrama-dharma which supports bhagavat-dharma.
The varrama system is meant to support our endeavors and
advancement in bhagavat dharma.
is a master sthpati from Bali, was telling me that they now have a
formal institution for teaching sculpture, but that the quality is bad
because men join simply to get a job. First, there is no real interest,
and second, the training is insufficientgiven only a few hours at
a time, now and then. Previously there was no time restriction. The
methods are artificial and the motive is wrong. Vedic authorities do
understand that everyone needs to be engaged, but not artificially.
When varrama is in place, the majority of people naturally pick
up different trades, and very often it will be one that is already
being performed within the family or village. Broad education is
traditionally non-formal, while those who are capable go to gurukula.
But regrettably, there is much protest against this beautiful natural
system.
In the modern system of compulsory education, the teacher has
no say whatsoever about who becomes his student. He is forced to
accept the student, and the student is forced to accept him. This
is not conducive to a good relationship. Many students despise the
institutional situation and come to the conclusion that on-the-job
training is more efficient. They would prefer apprenticeship, similar
to the fellow who goes to the village carpenter to assist him and learn
his craft. Apprenticeship goes even smoother when one learns from
his own father. Nowadays they squeeze everyone together in some
boring school room. It is so dry! Today, education has to compete
with the distractions of television, cinema, video games, pop music,
sports, promiscuity, etc. Earlier it was all-around easier. There was
proper guidance in society, good examples that kids could easily
follow. It was more natural. We need to recreate this simple and
clean environment.
The modernists have introduced the term schoolingused
like an industrial term of mass production. Like in a factory, you
place somebody in a system called school to get some predefined
end product, a useful tool. In this way, they are training people to
be like robots without the faculty to discriminate. Moreover, it is
illegal to speak about God or teach religious subject matters. So
many people in America are dissatisfied with the public system of
education, and therefore, an increasingly popular alternative is
home schooling. The parents keep their children at home, teach
them in some manner, and later on have them take a standardized
equivalency test for earning credential. That alternative is actually
allowed in many countries. A growing number of parents are finding
this option better than a forced public education. Or sometimes a
20
12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are

compelled to attend school until a certain age or a certain level,
is being extensively promoted in modern education. Would you
comment on its merits and demerits?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Compulsory means that by some
inconsiderate uniform law, everyone must attend school for a given
minimum number of years. That is not so desirable. What are the
advantages and disadvantages? I say that there are more demerits
than merits. Modern education has no proper criteria, nor is it
administered by qualified people. Their aim is wrong. It is quite
natural that children should be engaged, but in the Vedic culture
no one is forced into education. Education cannot by forced. It
should be offered naturally, pertinently, and in a good environment.
Varrama is far more efficient. Students are inspired by a pedagogy
befitting their inclinations. Compulsory education is one size fits
all. The majority of youngsters will attend courses for which they
have neither interest nor qualification. Governments subscribe to
theories that prioritize high levels of what they call literacy. Each
year, they conduct surveys to compare the demographics of higher
education between countries. The modern belief is that the
number of graduates shows how educated a country is. Therefore,
governments want the maximum amount of people to be processed
through their bogus system of education. But that is not the nature
of education.
Most of modern education is dra education, and a dra does
not need formal training because he can easily learn by practice.
Just by seeing and imitating he will learn a trade. In Bali, we see
that those who are sculptors have simply started carving from a
young age. The children learn by first bringing the tools to their
fathers, and so on. They simply begin, and gradually they pick it up,
and are soon carving. Kiora Ka Dsa, a disciple of mine who
21
Bhakti Rghava Swami
group of parents organize home schooling within their community,

since not every parent is able or inclined to teach.
In general, compulsory education as it is now set up has many
faults; it is not a natural way to impart education. In the Vedic system,
the student must show some basic interest to become educated. If
not, how will he learn properly? If there is no desire, no inclination,
no propensity, no one will learn. The reality is that only a few are
meant for formal education. The majority do not need it, do not
need to attend school. Governments are educating in an artificial
way. In our rama in Indonesia, some boys must rise early in the
morning to attend school till late in the afternoon. They have to
do so many things related to their education and must become like
machines. Can we call this education? As soon as the teacher goes
out of the classroom, the students immediately explode, misbehave,
and forget the whole lesson.
Bhagratha Dsa: Some countries have laws forcing every child into
school. How can we adjust? Plus, they may consider our own system
illegal.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Ultimately we have to preach to change
the system. We have to enlighten the world. We have to preach
and make people understandespecially those in high positions
that the setup of modern education is wrong. We have to initiate
discussion about reform and then explain the authentic education
that fosters self-realization. True education is devotional service.
It teaches prescribed methods for operating the material energy in
Kas service. The main problem with modern education is that the
spiritual dimension has been completely thrown out. Their concern
is to be in line with the predominant materialistic paradigm set by
the industrial class to suit their interest. They bait the students with
some prospects of material comfort, leading them to believe that to
become enslaved in an industry is worthwhile.
In countries whose laws go against our principles, we must be
clever. We should not oppose their norms, but should devise ways to
fulfill our duties and preserve our culture as well as possible. We have
to find the loopholes. In some countries, the law allows different
denominations, like the Christians, to run their own schools.
Most governments provide some flexibility that lets you organize
on your own. That requires intelligence and vision on our part, to
adjust. But in the context of education, we must uphold the basic
principles of Ka consciousness. Unfortunately, devotees have a
poor understanding of Vedic education. It is not that in modern
times, the principles enshrined in the Vedic culture are no longer

relevant. The basic principles remain eternally remain: there must
be a friendly relationship between student and teacher; one should
study in a sttvika atmosphere; the curricula must come from the
stras. All the elements that we have discussedcharacteristics,
principles, mood, etcmust be present.
Modern education is simply a business, like a factory. Many
people are making money out of this education business, so they
pressure the youth. Similarly in India, farmers are pressured by the
modern farming cartel to get a loan to buy a tractor and chemical
fertilizers. Often, something happens so that they cannot repay the
loan. When the time for their daughters marriage comes, they are
over their head in debts. Their lifestyle is gone; they see no way out;
they cannot face the shame. So they are committing suicide by the
thousands. It has become a big problem in India. In Japan, which has
always had suicides, there is an emerging phenomenon called group
suicides. People are teaming together to commit suicide. Japan is
a champion of modernity and capitalism, but what is the result?
All this greed crushes everyone. Consequently, student life also
everywhereis extremely stressful. I keep in contact with university
students whom I have met in India. They feel constant pressure
and stress because of their studies. As soon as one gets caught up
in an unnatural situation, he will feel pressure and stress. And as
long as we remain bereft of devotion to Ka, we must suffer. It is
the very same with education: when we miss the point and practice
unnatural educationnot attentive to varrama principleswe
get unfavorable results and cause suffering.
22
23
13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called

traditional education and what is called modern education, and
also define formal, informal, and non-formal education.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Both in modern and traditional education
we find forms of formal and non-formal education. Formal education
is generally a long-term kind of education. Originally, a student was
expected to train his intelligence and study subtle subject matters
religion, philosophy, literature, astrology, etc. This required many
years, sustained attention, and the ability to understand. If we
observe the very nature of formal education, we understand that
the number of men who can really take it up is rather small. But
in modern days, formal education extends from kindergarten to
university; every subject, for every student, is predominantly formal.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
On the other hand, the gurukula, the traditional formal system of

education, was restricted to the eligible. The scope of the gurukula
education ranged from basic to deeply advanced. To give you an idea:
the study of a single Veda would traditionally take twelve years; and
if a student wanted to become a trivedi, he would have to dedicate
thirty-six years. That is formal education.
Non-formal means education outside of a formal context, for
getting an occupation. One learns a skillcarpentry, accounting,
musicthat fulfils a need in his community. Those opportunities
are mostly simple occupationsarts and crafts. They do not require
extensive intelligence. Although one learns by practice, it does not
mean that no intelligence is involved. But it is less intensive.
Informal education means to learn things here and there in
daily life. That goes on constantlyby meeting people, by seeing,
by hearing, by experiencing, by coming in contact with the world in
general. Everyone learns something just by going places and seeing
things.
There is a gulf of difference between the traditional educational
system of the Vedic culture and the modern pattern. In the
traditional system, the majority learn by non-formal apprenticeship.
In the artificial system, the majority is pushed into a formal setting,
which is not natural for most students. That is a major difference
between traditional and modern education. It means that it is not
necessary to have these big, big schools and big, big buildings filled
with clueless, unqualified teachers. Modern education always keeps a
materialistic orientationcreating a qualified workforce, increasing
technical knowledge, or imparting material skills. In traditional
education the main goal is to advance spiritually, and mostly only
brhmaas and katriyas are selected to receive formal education.
Nowadays, most formal education is geared for drascomputer
science, technical training, and the whole range of dra fields. It is
unnecessary, because in technical fields there is always some manual
available; one would simply need to read, apply, and consult with
seniors. To provide a system is brahminical, to apply it is mechanical.
Modern education is mechanistic. The materialistic goals of modern
formal education, given to the working class, contrast with those of
traditional formal education, which imparts spiritual values to the
leaders. It is completely different.
Modern education is devoid of any spiritual values. A couple
of years ago, I met a lady in Canada who was pursuing her masters
degree in social work. Interestingly, she conveyed to me that some
of the educators are now sensing the need to reintroduce spiritual

values within education; it is something that people are seeking.
But due to the plurality of religions, combined with the shallow
understanding of their followerswhich we see as causing problems
among nationsa lot of propaganda for completely doing away with
religion remains, thus stopping any attempts to reintroduce it. In
Ka consciousness, we do not promote a particular denomination;
rather, we put emphasis on the principles of religion and its essence.
The essence of all genuine religions is compatible; there is no need
to alienate one religion from another.
Another difference is that modern education thrives in big
cities, whereas traditional education was usually conducted closer to
a village, or in the forest. Modern education includes a large number
of unqualified teachers and tries to educate people who are not meant
to be educated in that way. Anyone who compares the qualifications
of brhmaas to those of modern educators immediately sees great
distinction. Their system judges an educator almost exclusively
by looking at his academic records. The traditional system
esteems character, of both the teacher and the student, as the key
qualification. It is important to understand that the importance of
character applies twofold. Traditionally, a teacher would not accept
a student if he did not show good character: tad viddhi praiptena
paripranena sevay. (Bg 4.34) According to this verseJust try
to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master, inquire from
him submissively, and render service unto himthe proper mood
and the students willingness to serve are essential. In a brhmaa
gurukula, during the initial years one performs menial service. The
guru does not immediately give all kinds of confidential information.
He will test the student to make sure that he is a worthy recipient.
Knowledge is not meant to be given to each and everyone, without
discrimination. This is yet another big fault of modern education,
that anybody can receive any kind of knowledge simply by paying
a tuition fee. It adulterates everythingyou pay, you get. It cannot
produce a noble person adorned with meaningful qualities.
24
25
14. What would you say is the main pitfall of modern education?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: The main pitfall is their exclusive blind
dedication to the gross materialistic paradigm at the expense of any
spiritual emancipation. Spirituality is the life and soul of erudition.
These foolish rascals are cutting out the very heart of education.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
The pitfall is that educators do not understand what education is. In

the name of education, in the name of these so-called educational
institutions, the administrators, proud of their big buildings and
expensive structures, are producing drasactually not even dras,
because dras are ryans, but these so-called educated people
have no good character nor any clue about the goal of life. Modern
education is a big farce; it is in total ignorance. rla Prabhupda
would say that modern schools are like slaughterhouses. The word in
Sanskrit is tma-hana, killer of the soul.
years ago, according to the annals kept by the British about food
production, Indian villages were blessed with bountiful crops. These
villages were truly clean and opulent, and all the citizens were happy.
When we hear from the Ka book about Vndvana, all of the
villagers were wearing gold bangles and silk clothes. Nowadays who
is wearing silk in the villages? The villagers are poor because they
lack proper support and guidance.
So in ISKCON it is urgent to understand Vedic education. We
must respond to both our spiritual and material needs according to
parampar. We cannot leave out or minimize the spiritual aspect. If
we do, we are no better than animals. rla Prabhupda strongly said
that the present society is an animal society.
26
To not send students to that kind of environment, whether our

own schools or those of general society, is a big challenge for us at this
point, because we do not yet have an alternative in place. Devotees
need to accept this challenge and create a proper alternative
real educationas rla Prabhupda ordered. We need a type of
education that provides for all our needs, and it will manifest only
within a solid varrama setting. The varrama college will give
varrama education and enable people to balance the spiritual
and the material in their life. Modern education is a big failure, even
though superficially shiny on the outside, with its big universities and
costly buildings. But what is the end product? What kind of society
has been created by this kind of education? Our grave social issues
originate precisely in this deviation. Today we face a global crisis: in
every country, people live degraded lives. They suffer from violence,
poverty, pollution, alienation, suicide, and much more. A rapidly
increasing number of people are mentally ill. Physical health also
is rapidly going down the drain, due to a twisted lifestyle aggravated
by junk food, intoxicants, illicit sex, stress, etc. The whole world is
freaking out. They run a documentary series on TV called Planet in
peril. We see many catastrophes. The environment is out of balance,
and there are many inauspicious signs. Here in Cambodia we hear
dogs howling even in daytime.
Some may argue that such negative things have always been
there. That is true, but only in Kali-yuga. Scriptures such as rmadBhgavatam, which is recorded history, inform us that if there is a
qualified kinglike Mahrja Yudhihira or Mahrja Parkit
such inauspicious symptoms are negligible or non-existent. During
the time of Parkit Mahrja, the Age of Kali had just begun, so there
were a few bad omens. But during the reign of Lord Rmacandra
and other exalted rjaris, we do not see any anomalies at all. In
those days, people were happy and satisfied with their king; plenty
of food was available. This is not a fairytale. Even just a few hundred
27
15. What are the pillars of education?

Bhakti Rghava Swami: As already mentioned, there are five aspects
to education. The first aspect is called definition and, self-evidently,
it signifies establishing the proper definition of education. The
principles of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana are essential for
apprehending the whole realm of education. These principles have
very clear connections with the various aspects of education. For
example, the definition of education has to do with sambandhajna. The modern definition is different from the traditional one.
The traditional definition is that education is the simultaneous
cultivation of knowledge of the phenomenal and the spiritual (called
numinous in the Bhagavad-gt).
na te ha sa-vijnam ida vakymy aeata
yaj jtv neha bhyo nyaj jtavyam avaiyate
I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both
phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further
shall remain for you to know. (Bg 7.2)
So according to Kas definition, knowledge must have the two
components, phenomenal and numinous. It can be learned by formal,
non-formal, or informal methods. That is the first principle.
The second principle of education is the disposition, which
refers to mentality or mood. What is a good disposition for a teacher
or student? It implies certain qualifications, both material and
spiritual, that the teacher must possess, and a certain attitude of
the student, along with some basic aptitudes. The qualifications of a
teacher are given in the Bhagavad-gt:
28
amo damas tapa auca kntir rjavam eva ca
jna vijnam stikya brahma-karma svabhva-jam
Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty,

knowledge, wisdom, and religiousnessthese are the natural
qualities by which the brhmaas work. (Bg 18.42)
These are the natural qualities of a teacher, or brhmaa. A
bona fide teacher must have these qualities. But if we look at modern
teachers, who is qualified? rla Prabhupda wrote in a purport that
if a teacher is smoking, he is not a teacher but a cheater; he is not
self-controlled. Purity is needed. If someone is not cleaning himself
daily, both internally and externally, he cannot be pure, cannot have
pure consciousness. Religiousness means belief in God; one must be
God conscious, Ka conscious. These are the qualities that create a
favorable disposition in the teacher, the characteristics of a qualified
brhmana. In the Vedic culture, teacher means brhmana; only a
brhmana can teach formally. That is his specialty. The qualities of
the student are also elucidated in the Bhagavad-gt:
tad viddhi praiptena paripranena sevay
upadekyanti te jna jninas tattva-darina
Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The
self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they
have seen the truth. (Bg 4.34)
A qualified student is adorned with three qualities. First comes
praipt, which means proper submission. Most modern students
are light-years away from this standard. Second comes prana,
inquisitiveness. If one has the proper submissive attitude, he qualifies
to ask questions. Last is seva, which means menial service. In the
Vedic culture, education is not limited to gurukula, which is only its
formal element. Non-formal education, in which students live with a
senior to learn his trade, takes place extensively. Gurukula is generally
only for dvijas. But the principle of residing with someone in order
to learn from him is also found outside of gurukula. dra students
also benefit this way, through apprenticeship. The apprentice can
stay at the mentors house in non-formal education. He renders
menial service to his mentor, just as does the gurukul. Appropriate
education should be offered to students who display these three
qualities. If someone is devoid of them, he has no claim to education.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
29
The teacher reserves the right to refuse him knowledge. So we can

safely say that according to stra, modern students have basically
no right to receive education and modern teachers have no right to
teach.
The third component is the delivery of knowledge. This refers to
where and how knowledge is transmitted. Traditional education uses
a boarding system. Both the students and the teacher live together
in the schoolnot just the students, as is generally thought. This
implies that the teacher also goes to magala-rati with them, and so
on. They live and eat together, spend most of their time together. The
location for this kind of educational exchange would traditionally be
a natural and peaceful environment, away from congested places like
cities, which are governed by the modes of passion and ignorance.
Also, to avoid distractions, gurukula was for boys only. Traditional
education was mainly to train brhmanas and katriyas. Vaiyas
could also accept the brahmacr-rama, but generally for a shorter
duration. Brhmanas would study the longest, katriyas somewhat
less, and vaiyas still lesser. Even the dras would also learn their
trade in a proper environment. A proper environment is a very
important aspect for a proper education.
The fourth principle is the design, or the curriculum, i.e., the
selection of the knowledge to be taught, and the method for its
presentation. The development of curricula is extremely important.
In traditional education, the fountain of knowledge is always the
Vedic literature. One of our limitations in ISKCON is that because
of a lack of qualified brhmanas, we cannot properly or sufficiently
design, on the strict basis of stras, a variety of curricula, including
those for material sciences and arts. The few examples of alternative
education that we do have are mostly confined to brahminical,
or spiritual, subjects. If we are to establish the complete system of
varrama, then we have to extend our efforts also to katriyas,
vaiyas, and dras. We should provide a variety of courses for
them. For instance, it is necessary that our leaders learn the basic
principles of administration, but what we now provide in that regard
is generally confined to organization related to our temples. We have
to go beyond that and teach prospective katriyas how to organize
a village or a society. We have to train people how to assume that
kind of responsibility. In other words, to use the analogy of society
compared with a body, we are just beginning to dabble apart from
the head, by entering the realm of leadership for the katriyas, who
are analogous with the arms. Of course, everything will come from
Bhakti Rghava Swami
the head, but we have to venture beyond it. We also have to go

beyond the arms. The body must be fed. We must introduce courses
on natural farming and cow protection. And we need legs to stand
on, by training dras and giving them security.
We must teach all of our devotees how to organize themselves
within village communities. So much work awaits us, to prepare
devotees to follow dharma in connection to this material world. The
way we live nowadays is so artificial and unsustainable. We excessively
extract and use so many valuables from the earth, and that creates
great imbalances. The industrial system will not maintain us for very
long; it is breaking down as we speak. We will have to comply to
natural lifeeither by choice or by forcebecause in due time nature
will force us back to the standard. In ISKCON, by rla Prabhupdas
mercy, we have been forewarned. Now we need to prepare ourselves,
and society in general eventually, to live in a natural, pious way. This
information is extensively given in stra.
As we have explained, varrama is a system of aptitude-based
learning. Following ones natural inclinations, one will be attracted
to particular activitiesan attraction to read books, or to carve,
and so forth. That will lead to some occupation. He will take up
the profession of a brhmana, katriya, vaiya, or dra. Aptitudebased learning leads to aptitude-based occupation, or vara. And
arama is for lifelong spiritual learning. A wonderful feature of
the Vedic culture is that from the very beginning of life everyone
is trainedand especially if one is born in a Vaiava family, like
our rla Prabhupda, who from the youngest age had darana of
r r Rdh-Govindaj and heard the evening rati performed
by his father with that tiny bell. From his earliest childhood, rla
Prabhupda was shrouded with Ka consciousness. That is culture.
Culture means that one understands his identityhis relationship
to God and everything elseand moves toward self-realization. For
that purpose, the varas and ramas are essential. It is the nature
of the soul to be active, so even when embodied within this material
world, the soul must to do something. We are not yet ready to simply
sit and chant the holy name day and night like Haridsa Thkura.
Therefore, in the context of education, we need to focus on how to
introduce and apply the principles of varrama, the most complete
educational system. The brhmanas play a major role. They direct
young men toward their ideal occupation by giving them appropriate
training according to their gus. Brhmanas also suggest the most
suitable rama, in respect to ones vara and spiritual maturity
as Lord Caitanya requested Raghuntha Bhaa Gosvm to remain

a brahmacr. In other words, by seeing ones characteristics, the
guru understands who can remain a lifelong brahmacr, and so
on. By perceiving those tendencies, he knows the ideal rama for
the individual, sees to his lifelong education, and guides him safely
toward self-realization.
The fifth principle of educationdirectionis in connection
with prayojana. What is the goal of education? Where do we want
to go? What is the desired result of our endeavors? As given in the
Bhagavad-gt, the goal is to become self-realized, Ka conscious, to
perfect ones devotional service and go back home, back to Godhead.
If this is not the ultimate aim of education, then technically that is
not education.
These are the five fundamental components of education,
viewed according to our siddhnta. If an attempt at education does
not properly incorporate all of them, it will be incomplete. Generally,
we call the people around us human beingsbut are they really?
They act like animals, or worse. To be accepted as a human being, one
must manifest certain basic qualities. In the same way, to be accepted
as an educated person (as Cakya Paita has explained), one must
respect all women other than his wife as mother, consider others
property to be refuse alongside the road, and see others suffering
as ones own. Erudition is intimately connected with character and
personality.
30
31
16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or qualified
student?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: We just covered that, when we spoke about
disposition, the second component of education. The teacher must
display the qualities of a brhmaa (Bg 18.43), and the student must
display the three qualities of a disciple (Bg 4.34). These qualities
of both teachers and students are nowadays rare to find. Modern
education is grossly misleading.
17. What should constitute the curriculum in education? How much
of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how much
should be from other sources?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: A curriculum should be sourced in the
stras and formulated according to ones vara. Otherwise, we learn
from books that keep changing all the time. When I was in school, in
Bhakti Rghava Swami
those days, at the end of the school year students could hand down
their textbooks to the next years class. But nowadays that would be
rare, because information is changing so rapidly. And that is one
reason why education has become so expensive; students always
need to buy new books to get so much new knowledge. They keep
presenting new knowledge, but so-called knowledge that is ever
changing is simply not knowledge at all, but speculation.
The beauty of the Vedic stras is that they are unchanging
books of knowledge, wherein one can find everything necessary
for material and spiritual well-being. But unfortunately, we fail to
appreciate this fact, and some of us do not even have much faith
in the stras. We lack the conviction that the stras contain
everything, including material sciences. rla Prabhupda often
said, Everything is there in my books. What does it mean? It means
that also within his books is his prescription to study further Vedic
literature, for which he has duly given references. Of course, rla
Prabhupdas books are sufficient for going back to Godhead, but on
the other hand, he permitted his followers to seek further details of
application within the Vedic literature.
We should undertake the study of various appropriate divisions
of the vast Vedic literature. That is a service for brhmanas. But
we lack qualified brhmanas. If we do not encourage and support
those who have the capacity to become brhmanas, we are missing
out, cutting our own throat! How will we extract all of the valuable
knowledge from the Vedic literature? It is urgent and essential that
we train devotees in this regard. The Gosvms of Vndvana did
thatof course, primarily in relation to bhakti, as ordered by Lord
Caitanyaand that was their great service. In ISKCON, we need to
push learning to new heights. We need brhmanas who can churn
the Vedic literature.
When I was in Indonesia a few years ago, I came across
someones Ph.D. thesis on leadership principles. His bases were the
ancient practices in Indonesia, many of them genetically connected
to Vedic practices. This tells us that our stras are full of information
on subjects like leadership, etc. Those are mentioned briefly in the
Bhagavad-gt, in seed form. rla Prabhupda said that the Bhagavadgt is the ABCs of spiritual life. We should publish several books
on Vedic arts and sciences, but we have so few qualified authors.
We need brhmanas to establish our culture and lifestyle. We need
brhmanas to teach traditional farming and restore natural economy.
We need to revive the sixty-four arts and sciences of the Brahma-
sahit and the Tenth Canto of rmad-Bhgavatam. When KaBalarma went to Sndpani Munis rama, they learned a new art
each day. Ka showed us that this is part of education.
The more we revert to self-sufficient agrarian life, the more we
can implement Vedic traditions. Until we do that, we are stuck with
all these modern concernshow to drive a car, how to operate a
computer, etc. Sadly, very few devotees are engaged in rural, agrarian
communities. It is a great challenge to revert to natures way. We
are in need of the agrarian lifestyle and wisdom. Urbanization is
bad for consciousness. Cities are not a good place for most devotees.
Only the preacher truly belongs there. Yes, cities were a part of
Vedic society, but unlike modern cities they were based on Ka
conscious principles. And again, the majority did not live in cities.
It is a huge challenge for all of us, but we have to take it up. It is also
a huge challenge to leave the material world for the spiritual world,
but we do not give up; we are confident that we can succeed by the
blessing of guru, sdhu, and stra. In the same way, by their mercy,
we can reestablish varrama. When there is a standing order given
by rla Prabhupda, there is simply no way to avoid it. The longer
we hesitate, the longer we put it aside, the more justifications we
will nurture to avoid our duty, clinging to the useless and endless
argument that it is difficult. Procrastination means great danger for
our children and future generations. Just as it is an emergency that
we must become Ka conscious, it is also an emergency to establish
varrama. The longer we remain in this polluted atmosphere, the
longer our children are raised in this godless civilization, the more
difficult it will be to remainor becomesane. It is not surprising
that our devotee families are facing so many problems.
32
33
18. Is education everyones right, or a privilege? Please elaborate.

Bhakti Rghava Swami: We have already touched on that point. The
student must be qualified to be accepted by the teacher. Therefore, to
receive an education is very much a privilege, something similar to
devotional service. To live in a temple and receive all its facilities is
a privilege awarded only to deserving students. Similarly, to receive
an education within Vedic culture one must demonstrate the desired
qualifications, i.e., the three basic qualities of a student: praipt, mental
disposition; prana, inquisitiveness; and seva, service. (Bg. 4.34) Those
who do not display such qualities have no sacrosanct birthright to
receive education.
Bhakti Rghava Swami
19. Is the percentage of literacy in a country relevant to evaluate its

citizens degree of education?
every member of ISKCON. Then there is a need for more discussion,

preaching, and education, for attracting a greater number of
devotees to come forward and join the varrama mission in a
practical manner. Devotees should read more. Many of our devotees
have still not yet read rla Prabhupdas Essay on Gt-nagar, or his
conversations on the topic, or carefully read the section of rmadBhgavatam that deals with this matterthe last five chapters in the
Seventh Canto, wherein Nrada Muni speaks on varrama. We
need to be more attentive to what rla Prabhupda has spoken and
written. There are hundreds upon hundreds of references describing
the need and importance for establishing varrama-dharma.
Devotees must understand that a disciple cannot be successful
without putting into practice the instructions given by his spiritual
master. To establish varrama is one of rla Prabhupdas crucial
instructions. So, individually or as a society, if we neglect this order,
not actually manifesting it, we are directly disobeying the order of
the spiritual masterone of the ten offenses. How do we expect to
progress, individually or collectively, if we overlook this important
instruction? When rla Prabhupda said that we need to bring
about a complete overhaul of society, this is what he was referring to.
The revolution is to make people Ka conscious, which includes
varrama, the ideal way for people to live in Ka consciousness.
This entails many important duties for us. We have to work hard,
pray sincerely, and depend on Lord Ka. Only by endeavor can
we get clear realizations about this instruction of rla Prabhupda.
So many devotees are struggling, and they need support. If we are
to live together in a society, we must create a system of support. For
instance, we should support the brhmanas. Because we do not have
that support in place, brhmanas are becoming dras and working
for a salary. That is not right.
And there are many other similar considerations, such as cow
protection. How can we keep land and cows safe? It is very important.
Devotees can serve cows anywhere, even in a city like Secunderabad.
It is possible to have a gol in the city. They can be involved in
some way; at least just by going there, they would become closer to
mother cow. We need more devotees to appreciate the whole aspect
of cow protection. This will automatically happen if we establish
varrama communities. It is a big challenge, especially in the city,
but rla Prabhupda mentioned that it can be done anywhere. The
varrama system needs to be introduced everywhere. In some
places it may be more challenging than in others, but it is intrinsically
linked to the process of becoming a devotee. Becoming a devotee
calls for understanding varrama.
34

Bhakti Rghava Swami: The modern way of thinking is that
the higher the level of literacy in a country, the more educated are
the people. In other words, if someone gets a diploma or degree, he
is considered educated. This is a false indicator that is now being
promoted in most countries, practically in all countries. To put things
in the right perspective, we must return to the basic definition of
education and its purpose. Being illiterate is not a problem, for it is
not an absolute necessity on the path of self-realization. rla GauraKiora Dsa Bbj Mahrja did not know how to sign his name but
is one of our predominant cryas. That does not mean that we do
not appreciate the importance of reading and writing; we are not
advocating that parents not teach their children how to read. But
we should understand that, on its own, literacy is not an indicator
of ones education. These days most people are literate, but what are
they reading or writing about? Just books on all kinds of grmyakath, newspapers, etc. People are attracted to reading and writing
about these things. What is the use if it only facilitates people to
engage in more sinful activity? It would be better to not know how
to read than to read all this garbage; then at least he could not read
harmful literature. Just the other day, a simple guy commented to
me that although now people have literacy, they are lost as to what
they should read and write about. All these people are being taught
various things, but they are misusing what they learn. One should
not teach unless the student has interest and character. There is a
very nice verse in Manu-sahit spoken by the goddess of learning:
vidy brhmanam ityha sevadhis tesmi raksa mm
asyakya mm mdas tatha sym viryavat tama
The goddess of learning came to the brhmana and said: I am
the highest treasure. Do not impart me to a malicious person. Thus
preserved, I shall become supremely strong. (Ms 2.114)
So if we give knowledge to someone who has no qualification,
he will misuse it. This is what is happening these days.
20. What steps should devotees take to learn about these two
important interrelated concepts of varrama and education?
Bhakti Rghava Swami: First, we should chant the holy name with
more attention, to become purified. That is the main responsibility of
35
36
We have to deepen our vision on two fronts: varramadharma, which addresses our conditioned nature, and bhagavatdharma, which addresses our spiritual identity. Practically speaking,
unless we are liberated we cannot have one without the other. rla
Prabhupda said that they go hand in hand. It is evident that since
we are in the material world, kanihas cannot sanely say, We only
have to chant Hare Ka, because unless they have something to
eat, they cannot chant Hare Ka. Even if you become like one of
the Gosvms, you still need a little something, a little buttermilk,
like Raghuntha Dsa Gosvm. We are in the material world, so
therefore we need varrama. But varrama without devotional
service has no real meaning. When we study deeply rla Prabhupdas
instructions, an understanding arisesclear as daythat we need
to MAKE VNDVANA VILLAGES! Thank you very much.
Bhagratha Dsa: Thank you Mahrja for instructing us.
Bhakti Rghava Swami: Jaya r Vndvana-dhma! Jaya rla
Prabhupda!
37
39
38
Chapter 2
Interview of His Holiness Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami
If you are interested of hearing lectures, then stra says that you
should Hear of Viu, not of any rascal. Hear from Vaiava.
Then you will be benefited. Otherwise you will not be benefited.
Avaiavo gurur na sa syt. This is the injunction of the stra. One
who is avaiava, he cannot become guru. a-karma-nipuo vipro
mantra-tantra-virada. A brhmaa, and he is very expert in akarma... a-karma means six kinds of occupational duties. What is
that? Pahana. A brhmaa must be very, very learned scholar by
reading Vedic literature, and phana, and teach others of the Vedic
literature. Therefore it was the custom of the brhmaasthey
would not accept anyones service. They will sit down anywhere
and open a school for teaching Vedic literature. Pahana phana.
He will personally become learned, and he will teach others. And
the students, they will go from door to..., brahmacr, door to
door for begging, Mother, give me some alms, and they will give
because their students are there in the gurukula or catuph. So
whatever they will bring, that will be cooked and offered to Ka,
and the prasdam will be distributed amongst themselves. This was
the process, not twenty rupees fee and give some bribe to enter
into the school, and that is also all rascal education, no. Firstclass education, without any fee, from the realized soulthat was
educational system, varrama-dharma.
(Lecture on rmad-Bhgavatam3.26.27Bombay, January 1975)

r Mypur Dhma, India, January 2008
Note: His Holiness Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami preferred to answer
question number six first, since that would provide the basis for his
subsequent answers.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: The essence is that varrama is a science
of relationship. Our philosophy is explained in terms of sambandha,
abhideya, and prayojana. Sambandha simply means relationship.
We have relationships. A relationship is operated according to the
desired prayojana (goal). The same relationship could be operated
differently in view of a different result. Therefore, the nature of the
activity depends on the nature of the desired result. This is how we
operate relationships. You may have a relationship with God, but
your goal may be some material benefit. In that case, your abhideya
(process) would be praying to God for material prosperity. But if in
the same relationship with God you seek prema, the abhideya would
be bhakti.
What is the constitutional position of a living entity? What is
his position in the material world? What are the natural relationships
between various living entities? What is the position of God?
What is the relationship between God and the living entities? The
answers to these questions form the basis of Vedic society. That is
varrama.
So we are dealing with dharma, the varrama-dharma.
Dharma means religion or inherent nature that does not change.
We cannot change the inherent nature of anythingno matter
how hard we trybecause all those attributes are set by God.
Therefore the logical option is always to understand that nature
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami
and act accordinglyif we want things to work out nicely for us.
Varrama gives us in details the positions of all individuals in
society, their relations with each other, and their consequent duties.
Varrama explains the position of the brhmaa and the katriya,
what they do, what they need, and how they relate. The relationship
between the katriya and the vaiya is of a different nature. Similarly,
a katriya-dra or a vaiya-dra relation has its unique nature.
Each of them has its own position and relationships. Varrama
is neither a managerial system, nor an economic system. It includes
management, economics, sense gratification, and liberation, but its
main purpose is to develop ones relationship with God. Varrama
extends far beyond economic development. That is why it is also
called santana-dharma (eternal religion).
Let us look at varrama and the marital institution. In the
spiritual realm, do they have husbands and wives? Is Mother Yaod
a devotee, or somebodys wife?
but they are actually old dogs and hogs. They also follow some
knowledge, i.e., Vedic knowledge. There is no knowledge without
its connection to the Vedas. Modern man searches and simply
finds out things that already exist. Benjamin Franklin discovered
electricitywhich was already thereand Newton figured out
gravity, which we see everywhere. This means that they have simply
uncovered, unknowingly, a drop of Vedic knowledge pertaining to
those phenomena, which are just manifestations of the material
world. You cannot avoid that there is only Vedic knowledgedespite
the pride and arrogance of the modern people, who feel that they
are so unique, special, and somehow aloof from God. Anything not
firmly connected to the Vedas is temporary; that is called modern.
Therefore, that body of knowledge which is not cohesively connected
to the Vedas is called modern. Philosophically, modern simply means
temporary. Anything temporary has no substance, it does not last.
Therefore, what modern means to people is always mutating; the
fashion changes with time. I am modern today has to be different
than what it was six months ago. My language is different than six
months before. I do not use these old, archaic English terms anymore;
I use upbeat modern terms now. After a few years, those too are
rotten and something fresh is used. That is modern.
If you understand your relationship with God, things work; if
you do not, you will never understand varrama. Ultimately there
is only one relationship: the one with Ka, nothing else. Because
we chose to ignore the varrama system and created these artificial
rules and regulations for society, we have forgotten the path of
reestablishing our relationship with Ka. The intelligent follows
the path directly, and the less intelligent should at least respect and
follow the scriptures piously. God and his laws are all there is. Ka
says, I am the taste of water; anything that happens, anything
special, is Him. Materialistic people want to go to the heavenly
planets by performing yaja; but in truth, all that they desire is in
fact Ka. The road they take is Ka, and so is their destination
everything is Kabut they cannot see this underlying truth.
Therefore they are in illusion.
So the essence of varrama is to understand relationships.
A human being can have four different occupationsbrhmaa,
katriya, vaiya, draand four different social positions:
brahmacr, ghastha, vnaprastha, and sannysa. Each one has a
specific definition, a nature that makes it what it is. Varrama is the
science for understanding those positions and their interrelations.
To understand varrama, first of all we have to understand who
40
Bhagratha Dsa: She is both a devotee and the wife of Nanda

Mahrja.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Okay. She has a husband, so they have
a marital relationship there in the spiritual world. That relationship
is reflected here in the material world. The rules originate there
and are based on their spiritual behavior. Did Nanda Mahrja and
Mother Yaod have a child?
Bhagratha Dsa: Yes.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Do they eat? Do they sleep? Do they
have a house? Do they cook, wash their clothes, or make ornaments?
Yes. The difference is that there they do it for Ka, while here
we do it selfishly. That is the varrama system. Varrama is not
an economic system, solely explaining how to make money and put
things together. That is what a vaiya would conclude. Therefore in
our society, up until now varrama is not manifesting because we
do not really understand it; without the basic understanding, any
effort to put it together will fail. We miss the point because we only
consider varrama as a system of economics, not as a religion, not
as something eternal. It does not matter whether we live in a modern
society or notvarrama works. We cannot accept the imposition
of mundane adjustments upon eternal religion.
Manu-sahit describes what is modern. Millions of years ago,
Manu gave the definition of modern: that which is not Vedic.
Modern people are very proud and consider themselves special,
41
we are. If we do not, we cannot understand the identity of someone

else. If you cannot see yourself, you cannot see what is outside. In
varrama, if you can understand who you are, you can come to
understand everyone else and organize society. But if you are unsure
of your own identity, you will be unable to function in relationships
or to organize society.
The main duty of a brhmaa is in relation to knowledge, to
study scriptures and teach; that of a katriya is protection; that of a
vaiya is economic development, to generate wealth and give charity;
and that of a dra is service, to happily assist the other three classes
without any bad feelings. This is what we want.
Then we have the ramas. The brahmacr gets trained how
to function in life. Without the brahmacr training, one cannot
be a ghastha, vnaprastha, or sannys. If one is a dra, that is all
right because he will follow what the brhmaas, katriyas, or vaiyas
do. But without training, you cannot be a ghastha per se; you have
to learn from somebody. If you find some nice ghasthas, properly
trained and successful, and ask them, you will find out that they
absorbed that culture from their parents or someone else. This is a
science. For a brahmacr, the essential is that he is a menial servant
meant to study. He is humble, respectful, clean, and strictly celibate;
he is studying and gaining knowledge. Without those qualities you
cannot be a ghastha. rla Prabhupda explains that a first-class
brahmacr makes a first-class ghastha. So it follows that a secondclass brahmacr makes a second-class ghastha, and that third-class
gives you third-class. Only a first-class brahmacr can make a firstclass ghastha.
There is no exception to this rule, because we are dealing
with science. This is neither a matter of opinion nor a matter of
preference. Suppose you have a carwhat are you going to do with
it? You are going to drive around. But if you decide to use it to make
mango juice You could to some extent. You would have to stick
the mangos into the fan or under the wheels. But this is neither what
the car is for nor the best way to make juice. You have to understand
and follow principles. What does God say? What is Gods opinion?
His opinion is the one that matters. In the Bhagavad-gt Ka
says, Some say this and some say that, but My opinion is this. You
have to follow Ka. This is varrama, this is dharma. You cannot
change it. Sugar is sweet and you have no say in the matter. You
could use it as a paper weight or whateveryou could do thatbut
sugar is sweet; that is what makes it sugar. This is the definition of
dharma.
The ghastha is going to practice what he learned as a

brahmacr. His inspiration will be detachment. A brahmacr learns
to submissively follow the orders of the guru. He develops humility,
tolerance, respect for others, and he is active, doing service, always
absorbed in activities. If the ghastha does exactly the same thing it
will work. Therefore if he is not a good brahmacr he will not make
a good ghastha. Women will not live with men who are impatient,
intolerant, disrespectful, or lazy. They will not live with them
guaranteed.
The ghastha has to understand who God is, and the wife follows
the husband. That is an important point. But we have to understand
the term follow as something dynamic. Following implies that one
person is following another person who is actively going somewhere.
Although a man may demand that his wife follow him, it only makes
sense if he is going somewhere. If he is not going anywhere, what is
the meaning of that injunction? That is why most marriages fail
because the man is ignorant of the nature of relationship. He just
likes to think that he is the boss. But he does not understand that he
is being the boss like a woman, not like a man. The main problem in
society is that most ghastha men act like women. Therefore, because
the man acts like a woman, she has to act like a man. One of the
main reasons for womens liberation is men behaving like women.
The male and female couple is dynamic in a balanced relationship.
If you have full male, you will have full female; if you have partial
male, you will have partial female. For sure, the missing male part has
to be filled by the female, and vice versa. If the man is forty percent
female, then the woman will have to be forty percent male.
For instance, if your perspective is seeing the sannys order
only in terms of being in charge, you will never establish varrama
in millions of millions of years. God does not work like this. God is
male. He is the only male. How does God deal with His devotees? As
you surrender to Me, I reciprocate. What does it mean? He deals
with His devotees as they want to be dealt with. This is malenot
ordering whatever one wants with the expectation that it should be
done without any consideration. Mother Yaod wants to feed Ka
nowwhat is Ka doing? He is sitting down and eating. According
to the modern hard-line male definition, that would be improper.
That is because those hardcore males are all women. I will not go
into much detail, but I can prove philosophically and psychologically
that they are all women. Real men are very gentle, sensitive, and
accommodative. All these so-called tough guys are women; they just
42
43
happen to be of male gender. Women cannot get along with them

because of this: two women vying for control cannot get along.
The real brahmacrs are those who do not need women, not
those who do not like women. Some loathe women because they do
this, they do that, and they are nasty, materialistic, and self-absorbed
or whatever other reason there could be. If a man dislikes women, he
cannot be brahmacr. The real brahmacr is the one who does not
need women. Whether women are around or not does not bother
him at all. A true brahmacr can serve prasda to women and not be
disturbed; for him it does not matter whether woman or manhe is
just serving prasda to devotees. The brahmacr who does not serve
women because of aversion is the guy who is going to get married
very soon. Talking big and saying Women are trash will not make
you a brahmacr. When womanizers talk of women with other men,
they talk about women just like that, as if women are garbage. Same
with the top hardcore brahmacrs. Where are they now? Most of
them are married or getting married.
The point is that the new ghastha, now being inspired by the
wife, has to become humble and tolerant to make the ghastha life
work. The women will demand that. Any successful ghastha man
knows this fact. Anyone who denies this point does not know what
he is talking about. I can boldly say that. Why? Because while the
men may think that they are doing fine, I ask their wives and find
out the real story. A ghastha performs his duty in the association
of a woman to further his progress in Ka consciousness. In
other words, the naiik-brahmacr, who heard and practiced the
knowledge in the way of sdhana and menial service, sees no need
for family life and remains brahmacr. The upakurvaa-brahmacr
has understood the same knowledge but not realized it yet. The
naiik, who has strong realizations, remains a brahmacr. Those
who did not realize move on to ghastha life, and by interacting with
the family in a progressive way remove the need for itjust like we
use a thorn to remove another thorn. That is the function of the
ghastha-rama.
A vnaprastha, who has dealt with the senses, now restrains
from engaging them in various aspects of sense gratification and
strives to engage them fully in the Lords service. Lord Ka says
in the Bhagavad-gt that some engage the senses in the fire of sense
objects; that is ghastha. The vnaprastha reverses the process. He is
to deal with the senses to control them. He creates a severe, harsh
situation, where he becomes indifferentbecause sannysa means
indifference. He may be in the renounced situation, but his mentality

is indifference. The ghastha has to eat nice food; the brahmacr
eats what is given. The ghastha makes arrangements to eat nice
food, while the vnaprastha makes arrangement not to eat nice food.
The sannys could not care less whether it is nice or notif it is
nice, Ka has given, and if it is not nice, it does not matter. That
is varrama in a nutshellhow each one of them relates to each
other. The twelfth chapter of the Manu-sahit explains it.
Now, some may think that of the last five chapters in the
Seventh Canto, in the instructions of Nrada to Yudhihira, only
the first two (The Perfect Society: Four Social Classes and The
Perfect Society: Four Spiritual Classes) explain varrama, and that
basically the last three of them (The Behavior of a Perfect Person,
Ideal Family Life, and Instructions for Civilized Human Beings)
discuss only pure spiritual life and the paramahasa, not varrama.
That is a mistake. The whole idea of varrama is to reach the state
of paramahasa. Unless you know what a paramahasa is, how will
you get there? To reach the destination, you must know what the
goal is: prayojana.
The devotees are unable to apply varrama because they
cannot regulate the senses. In other words, with varrama, if you
endeavor to make money you have to proceed in a way that will assist
your God consciousness. When dealing with the senses, the problem
is not sense engagement per se; it is that the senses are not engaged
in the Lords service. A general misconception causes the devotees
to avoid dealing with their senses out of fear of my. The problem
is that they do not engage them in the Lords service either. This dry
renunciation creates a void, and socially we get huge problems. To
solve their issues, the devotees turn their attention to karm self-help
books, seminars, and that kind of stuff, because they do not follow
in depth their own philosophy and culture, because It is my to
engage the senses.
rmad-Bhgavatam has a lot of instructing stories for us in this
regard. Would you say that most of the stories found in its pages
are about ghasthas, or celibates? Are Dhruva Mahrja, Prahlda
Mahrja, Kayapa Muni, Kardama Muni, Devahti, and all the
kings of the Tenth Canto celibate? No, they are ghasthas. But they
do talk philosophy. Would you say that rmad-Bhgavatam is a pure
philosophical work that has no relevance to the culture of Ka
consciousness? No. But this is how most devotees look at it. You find
two conversations where the same husband talks to two wives
44
45
Kayapa is talking to Diti, then to Aditi. Basically, both of them are

making demands that are unreasonable, improper, and unimportant.
How does Kayapa deal with them? You can read and understand the
tone of voice and words he uses. That is the example of how a man
should deal with his wifenot just by saying That is nonsense or
You do not know what you are talking about.
Men generally deal with women improperly. The soul wants to
be God so much; he must be the controller and enjoyer. Anything
that does not make him a controller is not appreciated. Therefore
if the man is sensitive and submissive to the needs of his family, it
is taken as a sign of weakness. Even a so-called top ghastha would
rebuke this idea. They all are like women! Real men are sensitive,
gentle, and sense-controlled. But nowadays men cannot be gentle
and sense-controlled, because they are untrained; so consequently
they will be nasty and rough. Because that is what happens to women
when they are told to be austerethey become nasty. If you put men
in an austere environment, their mind and intelligence becomes
submissive. So the brahmacr is placed in an austere environment,
becomes submissive, and renders service to the guru. That is the way.
That is masculine. Unless you are a brahmacr, you cannot really be
a good ghastha. Of course, you could learn to be by training, but the
point is that we do not have training.
Now, how does a brahmacr respect his own nature while
dealing with the ghasthas, as vnaprasthas, sannyss, brhmaas,
katriyas, vaiyas, and dras intermingle with each other? See, in
varrama you should maintain your nature, and for that you have
to be aware of your nature in the first place.
Bhagratha Dsa: How do we recognize varas in Kali-yuga? It seems
very hard to sort them out.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: It is very easy. But in the Age of Kali,
because of false ego, no one will accept. Varrama sees the spectrum
of human society. Some excel in economics, some in administration,
some in knowledge. You start with the dra as the common platform.
Among those, the dvijas, the natural leaders of the common people,
will stand out. Not that we start from the top downward, with the
brhmaa, and everybody else is sub-standard. No, it is the other
way around. Everyone is human, but among humans we must find
leadership and leaders in knowledge, administration, and wealth.
Without those, nothing will work. If you do not know where to go,
you will not get anywhere. Without administration or protection,
a brhmaa cannot study and a vaiya cannot prosper. If there is
no economic development, nothing moves and the wheels stop.

Varrama only appears to be different in the modern day.
How do we recognize varas? Well, how do you maintain
yourself? The first option is through education, by cultivating
and disseminating knowledge. The second is by protecting your
community and providing facilities for them to perform their
respective religious duties. The third is by generating wealth, either
through farming, dairy, business, or banking. If you are not under
any of these three options, then you are a dra. If you work for
somebody or have a salary, you are a dra. It is very simple. The same
goes for the ramas. If you are unmarried and not planning to get
married soon and live under the direction of the temple commander,
what are you called?
Bhagratha Dsa: Brahmacr.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: If you have a wife or you want to get
married, what are you called? A ghastha, is it not? Then, if you were
married, gave it all up, are now retired and dedicate yourself fulltime in service to progress in Ka consciousness, what are you? A
vnaprastha. Then, if you dedicate yourself on a full-time basis but
are not dependent like a brahmacr, what is your position? Sannys.
If rama is so simple, why then is vara so difficult? It is simple, but
no one wants think about it, because no one wants to be a dra. That
is the whole point. It is so easy, but there is a mental block. That is
the problem in Kali-yuga. We are neither capable of understanding
our identity, nor our relationships, nor our duty toward anyone else.
That is the first mistake.
If you observe society now, you see educators, doctors, lawyers;
you find administrators and politicians; you find businessmen
and farmers; and everybody else works for those other three. So is
not varrama already going on? That is the second difficulty in
establishing varramawe think that varrama is not going on
because of Kali-yuga. This is not a scientific view. To make a parallel:
let us say that a great cook is preparing a meal and that a layman
also cooks something. Are you going to tell me that this changes
the process of cooking, in itself, or that the universal principles of
cooking are not at work? You have a pot, you put it on the stove,
you turn it on, you put something in the pot, you heat it up, and it
becomes soft for eating. Is there any difference in the principles used
by the expert and by the other cook? No. The chef just understands
the principles better, applies them more scientifically, and therefore
his preparation comes out nice.
46
47
So varrama and its principles are in effect right now in the

whole world, in every aspect of life. Even if you take a tribethere
is a king, there are warriors, and there is everybody else who assists.
You have persons who go out and make things happen; they are your
vaiyas. Are there no husbands and wives nowadays? Are there no
males and females, no parents and children? Not only thatis the
influence of Kali so extensive that in Kali-yuga water is not wet and
fire not hot, that the sun does not rise in the east and set in the
west anymore, that the wind does not blow and the rain does not
fall, that people do not need to sleep, to breathe, to eat, and to go to
the toilet, that they do not like sex as they used to, that children are
not born from the wombs of women, that nothing works like that
anymore?
What has changed? If in Kali-yuga varrama will not work,
tell me what has changed? People are not following the Vedas, thats
all. But that does not mean that the nature of the living entity has
changed. There are dogs in the Indian villages, in the Indian cities,
and in New York. Is there any real difference between them? So the
dogs, the birds, the water, the wind, and everything else are the same.
Only human beings refuse to acknowledge their rolethat is their
change! The basic perversion is that women have become men and
men have become women. But their natures are still underlying, and
if you revert to operating it correctly, it will work. That is the beauty
of it.
Varrama works despite the modern idea that it does not. It
still goes on. We still need money, administration, and protection.
The qualified brhmaa, katriya, and vaiya know what is going
on. They clearly see the reasons how to organize varrama. The
businessman knows; he gets capital and makes money. A leader knows
that you still have to organize people and give protection. Someone
who reads books and studies acquires knowledge and teaches. What
has changed? Nothing! The science still remains, and if you follow it,
it still works today. It is nice to see all these examples that are handed
down by the traditional system. That is science, and it works.
Varrama is not external. We wear dhoti and chadar. Why?
Because it is Indian? No, because it is what Ka wants us to
wear. What is the underlying principle? It is gentle and cultured.
Therefore, even if you have to wear non-devotional clothes you wear
something that is cultured, and you still follow varrama. You will
not wear stretch-jeans or a funky t-shirt. You dress appropriately,
according to the situation. That is the rule of varrama: according
to your age, your position, your relationship, and your situation, you
dress appropriately. You do not dress outside of those parameters.
That is varrama. So can we say that it does not apply now? A man
going to the office wears a suit. Does he wear that suit at home? This
is all varrama. But people do not know what varrama means
anymore; therefore they cannot identify it.
Often someone who has suffered many divorces, because he
was ignorant of the basic principles of family life, will conclude that
marriage no longer works. The truth is that the majority of couples
simply do not know what to do. We see others making it through due
to some remnants of family traditions; for them, marriage still works.
A loser will label tradition as obsolete, while others still apply it with
success.
A varrama society can exist only if there is education. You
have to train people in varrama. Varrama means to act as
human beings; you do not train them as animals. Education basically
comprises three stages: ravaa, manana, and nididhysana.
ravaa means to hearyou hear about the nature of God, the
individual soul, and the material energy, as well as their interrelations.
That is knowledge. Manana means to contemplate what was heard
and put it to practice. It is not confined to thinking, but is combined
with practice. Not to combine knowledge and application is a very
grave and common mistake. And nididhysana means realization. By
practicing with knowledge one gains realization.
From that, we can understand that a true leader wants people
to proceed with knowledge. He knows that this way the results will
be greater and long lasting. People who are not real leaders are afraid
that they will lose control, or their position, if people are educated.
They think that the less others know, the easier it is to control them.
But a real leader appreciates other peoples qualities and encourages
them to do things with knowledge.
So you want to know what the obstacles are in our society.
Well, consider the following: We know the wife is supposed to follow
what the husband says, but she is a human being and will ask why
human means to inquire. So if the husband does not explain, or
the parents do not explain, or the temple president never explains,
and so forth, then it is not a human society. If an authority does not
like the devotees to study and ask questions or ask the reason behind
an instruction, then he is not acting as a human being. This is why
varrama education does not manifest in our society. ISKCON is a
society meant for human beings, but many of our leaders are happier
48
49
with a bunch of sheep, because people who think are problems for
bureaucrats.
Bureaucrats are not leaders; they are dras. dra does not
imply a guy with a big fat belly just good enough to do physical work.
The brhmaas have their dras. Even today, when you have a school
are there not people who maintain the building, go around, and
drive buses? In the modern context, we can say that they are dras
working for the brhmaas. Same goes for the hospital: doctor is a
brahminical profession, so the nurses, the anesthetists, secretaries,
cleaners, etc., are all dras.
The katriyas, the government, have their dras. You have
administrators, generals, ministers, and then the people who assist
them. The foot soldiers, the policemen, the workers making the
roads, and the secretaries sitting behind desks pushing papers are
all dras of katriyas. That is why bureaucrats are dras; they are
maintained by the administration they serve. They do not generate
money or power. If you are maintained by someone else you are a
dra. Bs! Does it make sense?
If you go into a big shop in India, how many vaiyas are sitting
in the shop? There is only one guy, at the cash counter, chewing pan
and wearing a t-shirt. He is the vaiya, and everybody else, showing
you the items and all, are dras. Being a salesman does not make you
a businessman.
In this regard, rla Prabhupda told a story to elucidate who
is a vaiya. There is a particular group of vaiyas named suvaramallika, who come from a village just outside Kolkata. At that time
there was a man who was the prominent businessman from this
mallika community. One day a young man came from the village
to Kolkata to meet him. Being confident in his qualification and
family reputation he asked, I have a good business plan, and I come
from the same community as yours. Please lend me some money for
investment. I will surely return your money later, with interest. The
big businessman looked at the younger mallika straight in the eyes
and challenged, So you are a vaiya, huh? The young man proudly
said yes. Okay, the mallika said, then come with me and I will
show you your capital investment. He got out of his chair and went
over to the window. He pointed to a garbage bin on the street, where
a dead rat was lying. At that time Kolkata was experiencing plague,
and the government was giving two rupees per rat. That was a lot of
money in those days. Prabhupda said that one paisa would get you
more vegetables then a man could carrylet alone two rupees. So
the mallika said, If you are a vaiya, go down, pick up that rat, get
your two rupees, and start your business. The young mallika did just
that, and consequently became a very rich man in later years. That
is a vaiya, not the guy who has been selling hats for the last twenty
years. That is a salesman. A real vaiya will not be selling hats for so
long. He gets hats, starts selling them, gets more hatsbut at some
point he grows and starts hiring dras. That is a vaiya. Varrama
is very straightforward, but because of his impersonal nature, modern
man cannot appreciate relationships and their science. He simply
looks at it from the angle of I am the controller.
Let us look at the mother-and-child relationship. According to
the modern viewpoint the mother is the absolute controller of the
child. She is senior, she has knowledge, and what she says goes! Every
law in the land will uphold that. Any adult will support it. Whatever
she wants to do with the kidhow she wants to dress or feed him,
what school he will attendis absolutely, one hundred percent, in
her hands. Dictatorial. Put like that, it sounds like the child is in a
terrible position. But if a woman coldly acts just like that with her
child, is she representing motherhood, the feminine manifestation
of the parental position? How should mature women deal with their
kids even though they have full control? Even though, in tattva, the
mother is in control, in rasa, in the relationship, who is actually
in charge, the kid or the mother? Will the mother feed the child
whenever she wants, or when the child wants to eat? When the child
is crying, the mother responds. When the child is tired, the mother
makes some arrangement. When he is hungry or wants to go to the
toilet, she attends to his need. So who is actually in charge here?
Bhagratha Dsa: In this case, the child is in charge.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Yes, the child. That is varrama.
But most devotees look at it the other way around. That is why
they cannot establish the culture. That is why, in the sphere of
interpersonal dealings, those devotees have no lifebecause they
cannot accept the submission and sacrifices required in relationships.
Good relations are based on trust, and in Kali-yuga nobody will trust
anybody.
Can we say that at any point the mother lose her identity, or
feeling of control, because she is one hundred percent for the child?
And the more she is around the child, and the less she takes time for
herself, do we not call her a better mother? Which woman would we
consider the best motherthe dedicated one or the self-indulgent?
The mother who is selfless is the best, anyone would agree. Now, does
50
51
she lose her control or identity when she serves the kid? No. So why
would a man lose his identity as a man if he does everything to meet
the needs of the wife and children? This is the exact problem in our
society. Most devoteesWestern and even Indianhave no clear
idea of who they are in regard to social dealings. They do not know
what a male is, they do not know what a female is, and they do not
know what parenting is.
In case of any disagreement, the wife has to follow the
husband; The wife has to be submissive; The wife has to serve
the husbandare there any more clichs? The wife follows the
husband and he is in control. The wife serves submissively and he
is enjoying. Control and enjoywhat is that? That is the false
ego, the false identity that one is God. How can we accept ahakra
as the working principle behind family life? Until we get rid of this
so-called masculine nature we cannot establish true society, because
around ninety percent of our society are ghasthas.
Women are willing to be submissive and follow. Every movie,
novel, or story depicts a man who is a man, who is going somewhere
powerful, accomplished, and gentle with ladies. Can you show me
one woman who will resist, who will not be submissive to such a
man, the noble knight on a white horse? If the man has no clue of
who he is, how is the woman supposed to follow? So this is what the
whole problem boils down to. If the man is trying to become a man,
everything works. Then how do you train men to be men? You require
teachers to train them, a gurukula. That means we need brhmaas.
The soul is feminine by constitution; therefore one needs a lot of
training to take the male position.
So brhmaas will train men to be real men. Out of those,
some will be katriyas and will reestablish social order, some will be
vaiyas and will create prosperity. Everyone else is basically dra.
So all you have to do is create a class of qualified brhmaas who
understand varrama and its application. Brhmaas comprehend
the nature of man and woman, as well as the ideal platform for their
interactions. If you do that, you will have varrama. That is the
end of the discussion; it is that straightforward. But to do that is a lot
of work. That is why education is so essential.
Now that we have established the basics we can answer the
other questions.

52
53
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Education is training somebody to

engage the body, mind, and words in Kas service. Irrespective
of the students position, no matter what his conditioned nature is,
a brhmaa should know how to engage him in Kas service
without attachment, or by dovetailing his attachmentsin the fields
of knowledge, administration, production, or assistance. Education
should reveal ones relationship with God and his path to achieve
Him. Everything else is secondary.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: First we must deal with our own society,
that is clear. We have to manifest something first, so that the outside
world will be impressed. Otherwise, we would have to all become
academicians and take over the academic world. And only if we
would succeed could we effect change in the world. If we have to
wait until that day to rectify something, it is neither very realistic
nor strategic. To begin with, the academic field is not very congenial
to devotional service. Someone who was in academics before and
becomes a devotee can use his sphere of influence to promote Ka
consciousnessthat is finebut only a few devotees who take to
academics after coming in contact with bhakti avoid the traps of
my. They get into a lot of troubles, doubts, and deviations, because
they have to submit to the perspective-in-fashion to be respected or
promoted. The perspectives taught are always completely subjective.
They have to follow in the footsteps of whoever is their teacher, and
he is in no way coming in parampar or connected to stra.
In imparting education, the main thing is quite simple: when
you understand a subject and talk about it, education is going on.
But you need the support of the community to run a school. You
have to convince them that following the principles of varrama is
worthwhile. In South India, what does the average brhmaa expect
his kid to do? Do they send them all to gurukula to become great
preachers? No. They expect them to become engineers, computer
professionals, etc. First of all you must have a community, then you
have to convey your vision, and then convince them practically.
Convincing the community means convincing the women.
A society progresses according to the value system of its women.
In other words, if you want to implement varrama, you have

to be practical and down-to-earth. If you reject the principle that
you have to convince the women, for instance, then you are not
following varrama, because you ignore the nature of the genders.
According to the needs of the wife, the husband must provide. Due
to her nature, the woman needs to be secure; if she does not feel
secure with a proposal, she will not accept it. So the man has to
provide that security, in a Ka conscious way as much as possible,
and it is best if he is trained to do all that before he gets married.
Therefore the women are to be convinced first. You must speak in
such a way to convince both the men and women. The man can
be intellectually impressed, but the woman has to be convinced on
practical grounds. And because each married man knows he has to
deal with his spouse, it has to sound practical for him also. Otherwise,
they will retort, It is nice in theory, but it will not work. So unless
you convince the community, specifically the women, you are not
going anywhere.
Bhagratha Dsa: What do you mean exactly, Mahrja, when you

say that the false ego of the men is the main problem in ISKCON?
54

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: The modern educational system
lacks connection with God. It is therefore ever-changing. It has
no substance. If you help a person who wants to work in society
to achieve his material goals but, in doing so, do not deal at all
with the person as a spiritual entity, what is the benefit? You just
provide mundane tools, ignoring the real needs of the individual.
Okay, he learns some nice English, some nice math, history, a few
communication skills, some social skills, etc., but what is done for his
soul? That is the weakness: by its very process of teaching the tools,
modern education destroys the person spiritually.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Mainly false ego. If the men do not
recognize their ignorance and stubbornly maintain that their actions
are fine, then women also will not accept guidance. The women
follow the men, so if the men are unsubmissive, the women will
become unsubmissive toothe men lead the way. The men are just
too proud now. Therefore if you want to implement Vedic education,
you need a very long-term vision, a clear understanding of what
you are trying to get, and work on it for years. The first thing is to
convince the men that if they are the leaders of society and women
are to follow them, then they have to plan everything thoroughly.
55
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: For instance, no one wants to be a dra.

Furthermore, practically no one wants to be a manbecause man is
not at the emotional center, the woman is.
Bhagratha Dsa: What kind of training should we give to address
this problem of false ego?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: In philosophy, we all accept that the
false ego is the problem, but we have to accept it culturally too, for
realizations to come. Let us say that I am the man and therefore my
wife serves me. I come home and she cooked a nice meal. I sit and
enjoy the meal while she engages in some pleasant discussion with
me. I am the husband here; I am the man; I am the controller and
enjoyer. The wife is serving submissively; she is following. So where
was my relationship with the woman in that situation? I simply
existed in the state of controller and enjoyer. It was not a dynamic
relationship.
Let me elaborate the male and female principle using evidence
from grammar: A verb has two possible functions, either depicting
existence or action. When we say Ka is swimming, there is
no action performed by Ka, per se. It pertains to existence, not
action. Technically the verb is is, and not swimming, and what we are
saying is that Ka exists in the state of swimming. In Sanskrit this is
called bhva, or existence. On the other hand, we have kriy, when
action takes place: Ka swims to the other side of the Yamun.
Now we are saying that Ka does something: he gets from one side
to the other. Otherwise, swimming is just a state of activity.
This is so because Kathe original male, the only
constitutional malehas these two positions: that of pure existence,
tmrma, and that of ll, activity. Ka is tmrma, everything,
and there is no need for Him to do anything because He is perfect
and complete in Himself. Only Ka can do that. Then He expands,
for rasa. When Ka expands, He reciprocates with the devotees
according to their position. The devotees are only endeavoring to
please Ka, and Ka willingly interacts on their terms. Ka deals
with Yaod as mothernot as friend, or servant, or girlfriend
because Yaod wants to serve Ka as her son. Govinda deals with
the cowherd boys as friendsneither parents nor servantsand
with the gops as intimate girlfriends only. So Ka deals with the
vraja-vss on their terms.
That is called raya-viaya. Viaya means enjoyer and applies

to Ka; raya means those under the shelter and refers to the
devotees. Mother Yaod is in vtsalya-rasa. What rasa is Ka in?
Ka is not in a rasaKa is rasa! All the five rasas are Ka,
but Mother Yaod is a devotee who draws out the parental rasa
from Ka, and Ka interacts with her based on that. That is the
meaning of ye yath m prapadyante ts tathaiva bhajmy aham:
As you surrender, I reciprocate. If you surrender to me as a parent,
then I interact with you as a child.
The mundane masculine position, being expanded from Kas
original masculinity, also accesses these two statesexistence or
activitybut to a limited degree. Ka, male, relates to his energies,
female, in ll, not as tmrma. So a man, and not a woman, has
the capacity, relatively speaking, to self-satisfaction. But in that first
state, he simply exists and withdraws from interaction; there is no
interaction with the woman. In his other state, there is rasai.e.,
the female manifests and he acts on her terms. A woman cannot
simply exist; she must relate.
So we see the husband just exists thereI am the enjoyer
and the wife does whatever he says. In that state of simply existing,
the man does not actually get anything done, especially in terms
of relationships. It does not work. Where is the relationship? That
is the reason it does not work. Women do not mind serving and
followingin fact they prefer thatbut they will be inspired to do
their duty only if they feel their man is worth it. If their man is
not going anywhere, if he is not doing anything emotional for them,
and if he is not even going to reciprocate or relate with them, then
they will not carry on for very longunless they are very saintly
because their man is not in the state that they can relate to.
The feminine nature is dependent and therefore cannot be
self-satisfied. The souls existence is based on its connection with
God; the feminine existence absolutely must be connected to the
masculine. This is the metaphysical explanation. The feminine
nature exists only when the masculine is there; it does not have a
separate existence. Masculinity can exist whether the feminine is
manifested or not. When the man withdraws and just exists, the
woman cannot relate to him because there is nothing for her to
interact with. She will become frustrated and angry.
Clearly, false ego is the main hindrance. When the woman
approaches, the man gradually makes himself the center, and this
is a misapplication of the male nature. The female should be the
center, because the raya is the center and the viaya goes around
the raya, even though the viaya remains the enjoyer. Ka is the
enjoyer but moves with Mother Yaod in her world, and derives
greater satisfaction in doing so than in the tmrma position. In
Kas angle of vision, Mother Yaod is the center. All of Yaods
attention is on Ka; in her mind Ka is the center of her world.
For the male the female is the center, and for the female the male
is the center. But in their interaction, the female is at the center
because she is the dependent party. When the male thinks he is the
center, he cuts the female out and actually acts like a female.
Ka is in control but enjoys through Mother Yaods world.
Ka eats what she cooks for Him, when she arranges it, and where
she sets it up. When Ka goes out to the field with the cowherd
boys and Yaod cries Do not go! Ka does not say, Mother, get
out of my! Nor does Ka simply walk out on her. Ka does not
behave like that. Because she is the mother, Ka tries to convince
her by saying, Do not worry, mother! Balarma and Balabhadra
will be there, and they have clubs and swords! I will be protected.
Everything will be fine. They have to take a huge lunch pack with
them to ensure they will not be hungry, and she sends some servants
along too. It takes Ka forty-five minutes to get out the door. The
whole village of Vndvana is crying. This goes on every day! The
conclusion is that Ka interacts with Mother Yaod according to
her feelings. Even though her husband is the center of her world, the
wife will relate to him based on her mood of the moment.
When the man wants to be the center, he is actually saying,
Yes, I am a big womanbecause making yourself the emotional
center means you are feminine, you are dependent on someone
else. I am tough and cool. The women do what I say. But my being
tough and cool depends upon the women doing what I say; I am not
independent. Take the toughest and the coolest guy standing at the
corner, with his tough looks, trying to be stylish. If he stares at some
good-looking chicks passing by and they break up laughingLook
at that loser standing over there! Who does he think he is, wearing
those goofy clothes and staring like that?do you think he is going
to remain cool, or he will just shrink, run home, and probably sleep
for two days? So his coolness, toughness, and so-called masculinity
were dependent on these women. This makes him dependent and
feminine, and makes the women independent in that situation, by the
same token. Then the poor guy wonders, Why is she independent?
Because the man is becoming increasingly female and dependent, the
56
57
woman has to become increasingly male and independent, and meet

him halfway. Many men, due to pride, will object to this argument.
I am just giving the essence in a nutshell here. I can explain it for
hours and hours in detail if anyone has doubts. This is the biggest
problem in our society, as far as establishing a cultural norm.
There are plenty of devotees who do not understand their
position. They cannot apprehend their own nature, and do not
grasp the nature of others either. For instance, devotees who know
commerce could set up businesses that would make a lot of money
for our temples. Why are they not generally doing so? Because the
leaders of our temples do not understand how to deal with vaiyas.
They expect too much money out of them. Vaiyas function out
of attachmentthat is their naturebut an untrained authority
will expect them to give everything. This can never make sense
to vaiyas, so they will keep their economic pursuits separate from
ISKCON. Even when they want to advise in the field of economics,
they are often ignored because the authorities are too proud to listen
to them: I am in charge. The title of temple president does not
make you omniscient. Without a solid background, how can he claim
he knows the workings of economicsjust because he is the temple
president? That kind of attitude is born of false ego. That is why the
business people work outside the society, because the leadership has
no clue how to deal with them. For similar reasons, most brhmaas
also leave. These days everybody wants to make everyone else
drathat is the point. Everyone in Kali-yuga is born a dra. They
therefore relate to that. We have to train people.
So this false ego is the biggest problem, because varnasrma gives
you a social identity and you have to function accordingly. Of course,
we are not the body, but we cannot deny that we are conditioned by
this body and mind. We have to work according to our conditioning.
A common fallacious argument against varnasrma misquotes the
fact that we are not the body. What they are truly saying is, I do
not want to be regulated by varnasrma, therefore I am going to use
bits of philosophy to sidetrack from my duties. But if you say this to
their face, you may get a nuclear explosionsome kind of feminine
tantrum, yelling and screaming under false ego, without any sign of
intelligencebecause they do not know and certainly do not want
to know.
Devotees are philosophically very intelligent. You cannot find
a group who knows philosophy better. But, besides a rare few, they
are culturally ignorant or unwilling. They accept and know our
philosophy, but not our culture. This creates a void. So they will go
out and spend hundreds of dollars on self-help books and seminars of
all kind, trying to find out how to operate the material energy. Most
devotees have self-help books on their shelves. But if you try to bring
up what the Vedic literature has to offerin all fields of activities
of this worldthey will again rebuke and twist the philosophy: We
are not jns, we are Vaiavas, or This cannot be done in Kaliyuga, or This is my. They will follow all these self-help gurus
but will refuse to look into the vast material knowledge that Ka
gives us in the Vedic sciences and arts. They will say, No! This is
due to a lack of faith in Vedic society, a lack of faith in our culture,
and ultimately a lack of faith in relationships. They do not actually
trust people.
These are the real obstacles, not the lack of money or
trainingno, not at all. You already have leaders; you already have
brhmaa, katriya, and vaiya. Vaiyas can make money, more than
one can ever dream of, and the katriyas can organize them. The
brhmaas can study and learn and can teach what they learn.
That is not the problem. Within a few years you can get everything
straight, if you just accept varrama. The problem is convincing
people that this is what will work, and giving them faith in this
culture. Sadly, it is not just traditional varrama that is avoided,
but basic human interactions as wellwhich is why one becomes
so strongly impersonal. Therefore rla Prabhupdas pramamantra says nirviea-nyavdi. Why not something else? Because
impersonalism and voidism is what is infesting the West. That is
the problem, not that the Vedic thing is too weird. Do you know
Readers Digest? It is a very famous family magazine. Practically all
older ladies and common men read it. You cannot have a magazine
of a more mainstream naturemiddle of the roadand they have
articles on the Dalai Lama! They have articles on Indian culture and
religion, and people are interested. But devotees reject their own
devotional culture or are afraid to live accordingly. They have faith
in the philosophy but not the culture.
If you go out in traditional clothes and walk around the world,
they will think that you are a Buddhist (except for New York City,
London, or India; they will not know who you are). I was in the
Miami airport, which is relatively near to our biggest community in
the world , and people had never heard about Hare Ka. They did
not know us at allnothing! And if we drive around and go to petrol
stations or malls, somebody will ask, Who are you guys? Are you
58
59
some kind of Buddhists? Anywhere we go, we are Buddhists. Because

the Dalai Lamawhen he goes for a program, he goes with his shaven
head and his robe. Every Buddhist monk on the planet does so, so
people know what is a Buddhist. But the Hare Kaswhere can
you find one? They hardly wear dhoti in the temple, let alone out on
the street. So how are the people supposed to know what Hare Ka
is? Before, everybody knew what Hare Ka was. Now nobody knows,
because of this modern mentality of trying to fit in.
I know plenty of devotees who could do brahminical service,

but they cannot take it up because there is no money for that.
How many of our temple presidents think of training the kids and
devotees in bhakti-str and subjects like that? The opportunity for
education is often confined to be a reward: If you do big, and do this
and that, we will send you to Vndvana or Mypur to do bhaktistr. It is a reward. In the best cases, they may send one person,
so that he can try to train others when he comes back. But they do
not encourage the temple devotees in general to go; neither do they
prioritize setting up these courses nicely in their own premises. So
where is the education? We should train everybody.
I remember an incident that happened when I was a new bhakta.
I was reading the Nectar of Devotion in the temple, and my temple
commander told me, What are you doing? This is nonsense. The
book says to do service, so why are you reading? Do some service.
Other devotees, when they were complaining that they had no time
to read at all, were told by a temple president that they should have
done all their reading before joining the templeYou are not here
to read, but to do some service. But what did Srila Prabhupda say?
The only complaint that I have about my disciples is that they do
not read my books. He wanted every single temple to become an
educational institution.
In general, sakrtana devotees go out at ten in the morning
and come back at six in the eveningeight hours for sakrtana.
One of the few presidents who values education understood that the
sakrtana devotees spent too little time reading. So he decided that
every day from ten to twelve all the sakrtana devotees will read.
Sakrtana was consequently reduced to six hours a daywhich
meant two hours less. What was the result? They distributed more
books in six hours than they did in eight because their convinction
and Ka consciousness had increased. That takes leadership!
If education is supported, people will naturally come forward
and develop various programs. I know one person who was a great
expert in writing childrens books. He wanted to write many such
books, but there was no support. So now he just fends for his family,
because that is the only thing he can do. No one is supporting him.
Consequently, our kids have to read karm literatures because there is
nothing else to read. In the last thirty years we could have produced
tons of devotional books for children, if some support were available.
The proof of what I say is Gopparanadhana Prabhu: He was sitting
alone in Vndvana, writing for the benefit of the BBT. There was
60
So this lack of faith, this impersonalism, this lack of trust in

personal relationship, and this false ego stop us, and we remain devoid
of culture and inept in our dealing with the material energy. We
reject the Lords culture, and uncultured men think that simply on
the grounds of biological gender alone, women should automatically
follow and obey them. The problem in our society is men who are
not really men and behave like women. I guarantee that most men
do not have any real answers to this point, and that they will just get
very, very agitated if you bring this upjust like any woman does if
you poke her false ego.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: In the world, why is modern education
so popular? Is there a lot of modern education going on in Ethiopia,
Somalia, or Papua New Guinea? No. Why? No money. Modern
education basically comes from Europe, England, America, and
Australia. Why? Because these governments usually allot their
second biggest budget, after national defense, to education. How
much money does ISKCON put on education? Very simple: basically
nothing. Harikea Prabhu invested hundreds of thousands of dollars
and was trying to make education happen. But other than him, who
has ever done this? I can hardly think of anyone. Furthermore, who
preaches that education is important? Hardly anybody. Every single
educational institution in ISKCON is struggling for money, because
nobody cares about education.
In India, people give a lot of money. And, ironically, why do they
give donations so easily? Because they still follow, to some degree,
this varrama culture that our society is so afraid of. Many temples
in the West survive because of the Indians, because of remnants of
varrama. Because of this culture, Indians are successful all around
the globe. In fact, it is just a matter of time before they will take over
the world.
61
no scope for expansionuntil one devotee, who thought that

Sanskrit education was important, gave money to start a BBT school.
Now Gopparanadhana Prabhu trains several devotees in Sanskrit,
translation, and philosophy. Things will expand for the BBT. Many
serious students can now learn because this devotee supports the
efforts of a genuine brhmaa. This is what is needed.
do have no longer work on these farms because the managers of them

do not understand farming and do not bother to consult qualified
vaiyas in farming matters. This is opposed to varrama principles,
because a good leader should consult, when having to decide on a
specific matter, experts in that field of work.
ISKCON was established in the cities mainly, and at the moment
the great majority of the people we are working with are from the
cities. If we maintain that varrama can only be established in a
rural setting, then no effort whatsoever will be put for scientifically
applying varrama principles and organizing whatever we may
have in the cities. It is true that the ideal form of varrama is based
on the land and cows, but my point is that we are dealing with city
people. Therefore, establish varrama for those who are in the city,
and then from there, encourage and support the vaiyas who have
the know-how to work on the farmswithout interference. Nanda
Mahrja was the king of Vndvana. What was he? A vaiya. So
that is the nature of the vaiya; he is out on a farm and manages the
agriculture. A qualified vaiya will turn a profit from the landno
stickers needed.
If you go around the world, we have fabulous temples with
three altars, marble, etc., but how many devotees? Maybe there are
a few devotees living in the temple, and hundreds living outside.
And basically those living outside do not do much in the templeif
anything at alland the temple president complains, Oh, they are
not sincere. There is no sense of direction, and the devotees do not
trust the leadership.
Now if you take a very successful temple, like Chowpatty, things
are different. Why? Because they apply many of the principles of
varrama right there in Mumbai, the worst city you can imagine.
There is respect, authority, discipline, cooperation, family values, etc.
These are all principles of varrama; therefore they are successful.
There is a true sense of community, of belonging.
A big impediment is that many interested in varrama say
that only the agrarian-based approach will work. But economics is
economics. Ultimately it goes back to natural resources, but people
still deal with money because it is money; it does not matter to them
where it came from. The point is that money is money, and it works
according to the eternal laws of economics laid down by the Lord.
But the ideal approach is of course agrarian based, based on cottage
industry, etc. But if this is not immediately available, you deal with
what you have and apply the culture there the best you can. If you
62

society?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Of course it can! But you have to
know what varrama is. If some devotees, despite the mud and
inconveniences, live out in the field, have some cows, and grow
some grains, that is most encouraging. But if no one has a clear
scriptural understanding of what varrama is, then you will not be
able to establish it. Many devotees who try for varrama have this
misconception that varrama simply means farming, that farming
equals varrama. No. Farming is an important part of varrama,
but varrama has a much greater scope than just farming or village
life. Is Hastinpura a village? It is a city. What about Indraprastha or
Dvrak? These are cities. Have you ever heard of any agricultural
fields inside Dvrak? No. You hear of beautiful ponds, trees, swans,
and gardens, but not of agriculture. The vegetables came from
outside. So that means you had millionseven billionsof people
in that city, and a lot of them were working in trade and banking.
Was that varrama or not? The Ka book mentions that Dvrka
is laid out into four partsone each for the brhmaas, katriyas,
vaiyas, and dras. Many think that varrama necessarily means
village, but you had complex cities in Vedic times. But those Vedic
cities existed to serve the villages, as opposed to todays situation
where the villages are made to serve the cities. It has reversed.
For vaiyas, the most recommended occupation is farming
and cow protection. When the cows were created, vaiyas were also
created to take care of them. Just like when civilization was created,
the katriyas were created to manage it; when the Vedas were
manifested, the brhmaas were created to study and teach them to
others.
Now we are trying to build some villages, but our farms around
the world generally do not have real farmers; practically all devotees
there are city people. And they are running the farm not by farming
but by selling stickers or doing odd jobs. Often somebody is collecting
and the money comes into the community. The few farmers that we
63
have a businessman who runs a factory manufacturing nuts and bolts,

he is a vaiya, although he may not be the ideal vaiya. He is making
good profit and should give in charity; there are still duties that
apply. The four groups are there in any city, and their interactions
can be organized scientifically according to varrama if one knows
the science. We do not have to wait for the ideal situation to apply
varrama; we can start right away. Varrama is made by God, so
it applies at all time, in all places, and in all circumstances. By going
ahead in this way in the cities, the ideal rural situation will manifest
also. The Chowpatty temple has a budding rural community, and
that farm already has a gurukulabecause there is support, because
the devotees were made to value the culture right there in the city.
The conclusion is that those ready for the austerity of setting up
villages can go ahead, while those in the cities can be educated in
the social system and be elevated by brahminical guidance. As I said,
most of our devotees are in the cities. All we need is education.
only to marry a new girl after some time, he lacks realization. He only
went around in a circle, back to square oneonly now he is older.
When a devotee contemplates how to deal with his attachments,
realization is the consideration. The same attitude seen toward the
details of varrama is also seen toward varrama as a whole:
Varrama is mymaterial, unnecessary. Let us drop it. But
who is qualified to drop it? Who has sufficient realization? We are
not like Haridsa hkura, who could chant day in and day out.
Our process is not to reject the material energy, but to use it in
Kas service. Our immature concepts of renunciation in ISKCON
create cultural and devotional havocs. The jn is intelligent but
does not accomplish anything, and the karm is very active but does
not have knowledge of matter and spirit. The devotee is willing to
work with anything, without attachment, for the benefit of Ka.
But this overlap, that I am going to work like a karm with the
knowledge of a jn, but without desire for the fruitive results of
karma and without interest in liberation is not clearly understood.
It is seemingly a contradictory point. That is why it is not easily
understandable.
But let us examine something here: God, who is everything and
the controller of everything, is submissive to Mother Yaod. He is
also carrying Nanda Bbs shoes on his head. When Rdhr is
angry at Him and ignores Him, Ka is feeling sad. He begs whether
somebody can help make Rdhr favorable toward Him again.
Are these not contradictions? They are. But Ka is like that. He
is everything, and everything goes back to Him. All details that are
contradictory find their reconciliation in Ka.
Another reason why people cannot relate to varrama
is that they view it as a rigid set of rules and details, instead of a
dynamic set of universal principles. The rules and details are simply
manifestations of the principles. A katriya simply protects; he can do
that anywhere. Yudhihira said, Give us five villagesthat is good
enough for us. They knew how to apply varrama anywhere.
Because the externals are always different and variegated, we
can become confused. We fail to see the Vedic principles needed to
operate a peculiar situation, because we think only in terms of details
and rules. Due to this lack of vision, we cannot apply varrama.
Everybody is wearing a suit instead of a dhoti, so I cannot follow
varrama. No. Varrama teaches that you dress appropriately,
according to the situation, like a gentleman. So if you have a job
that requires a three-piece suit, then this is what you wear. But when
64

understood?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Ka says in the Bhagavad-gt that
You give up all this nonsense and simply surrender unto Me.
Arjuna then says, I will give up the fight and go to the forest. But
Ka retorts, No. You go back to the battlefield. At that point
Arjuna becomes confused. We understand karma easily: I work
hard, I get the fruit. And we do not even need to know why; the
fruit tastes good and the money is nice. The jn has knowledge but
does not work. The knowledge tells him that the fruit has no lasting
value, so why would he bother? That is also pretty straightforward.
But the intricacy is that our process is buddhi-yoga, which is based
on the simultaneous presence of knowledge and work. This is the
point that is missed by devotees. Even though we understand clearly
that dead matter has nothing to offer on its own, we still work with
it, according to the culture, in a spirit of sacrifice, for the benefit of
Ka.
A typical scenario would be a householder who prematurely
leaves the family as soon as he understands that there is no gain for
the soul: That is all my. This is true. But this understanding on
its own is not the complete picture. This is indeed the incomplete
understanding of the jn. Many devotees fall into this trap.
Understanding is not everything; realization is also needed. And
realization comes with time and practice. If someone leaves his wife
65
you go to the temple, you do not have to wear your suit. When you
sit at home, it is a different thing; and so on. This is the principle.
Varrama is so far beyond the concepts that devotees have about it.
They just see a body of rules and regulations. It is so far beyond that!
Varrama is God interacting with His creation; it is the culture
by which God interacts with His devotees. That is what varrama
is. In the spiritual world, the culture is done spontaneously. Here
we have to start from vaidh. When it comes down here, the cultural
codes are documented in the Manu-sahit and other literatures,
because people do not know.
Varrama is Gods social system of rasahow He interacts
with the devotees, and the devotees with other devotees. That is
another reason why devotees cannot understand varrama; they
cannot connect the two, the eternal culture of the spiritual world
and the prescribed duties for this world.
When a boy loves a girl and wants to show his affection, he

typically gives her flowers. Now, are the flowers themselves the
affection? Or are the flowers rather a medium to express that
affection? They are a medium only, but you use that medium to
express this kind of affection. It is the affection that counts, but
flowers are a befitting medium. This is dharma. Ladies like flowers,
and you can communicate with them through flowers. All over the
world there are flourishing flowers businesses. Is it because men like
flowers? No.
Similarly, varrama is the perfect medium through which you
can express human relationship, but the external form of varrama
is not actually the important element. Having the proper mood, and
using the appropriate form to express that mood, is the essence of
varrama. The rules simply depict what are the best forms whereby
you can express that mood in various given circumstances, just as
the flowers best express romance. This is a big impediment in our
application of varrama: we tend to think that it is all about the
flowers, rather than about generating the mood and understanding
we wish to express through those flowers, which are just the medium
of expression.
The mother expresses her love to her child through food. The
food, on its own, is not everything; it is meant to carry the mood. If
the mother would say, Your lunch is in the fridge, so you can heat
it in the microwave because I am going out with my friends, would
the child think, Oh, my mother loves me so much!? But the food
is a medium through which the mother naturally expresses her love
for the child, and the child consequently will reciprocate that love.
So the whole point of varrama is to establish the natural medium
of expression for the natural relationships between the different
members of human society. It provides the means for those interested
in elevating themselves by the four human pursuitsdharma, artha,
kma, and moka. But its ultimate purpose is to support the best use
of human life, the practice of Ka consciousness.
66
Bhagratha Dsa: Referring to the Manu-sahit, can we apply all

the rules and regulation in the present age?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: If you know what you are doing, yes;
if you do not, then no. Oh, can we cut off fingers and hands?
This is often the only thing people will remember about the Manusahit. What is more important, the detail of a rule or the principle
of varrama it represents? When her child gets out of hand, the
responsible mother will correct him. Is that a problem? For the
benefit of her child, for his protection and social education, and to
insure that other people are respected, she corrects him strongly if
needed. Similarly, the saintly king will correct criminals for their own
sake and, by the same act, ensure that other citizens are protected
in the future. The king and the mother are essentially in the same
mood. This is the principle depicted in the Manu-sahit. It takes
intelligence to see the principles at play.
I was quoting Manu when I said, The brhmaa is teaching and
studying, the katriya is protecting, the vaiya is making money and
giving charity, and the dra serves without resentment. This single
verse, given by Manu himself, sums up the whole Manu-sahit. The
katriya is a noble man who protects, not just someone who knows
martial arts and gets angry very easily. That would be a dra. The
foot soldiers on the Battlefield of Kuruketra, who numbered in tens
of thousands, were dras. The general point is that varrama
is far beyond what the devotees are presently discussing. It is an
understanding, not just a body of rules.
67

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Vara is the basis for deciding which
rama is suitable. A dra is automatically a ghastha; a brhmaa
can be a brahmacr or a sannys. In dealing with varrama, one
has to keep in mind that the rama is the spiritual culture and that
the vara is the economic or social culture; so the rama is more
important. But when you decide in which rama one should be,
you must consider the vara to know the options; hence you must
know the vara first. For instance, going to gurukula will work for
boys who are from a brhmaa, katriya, or vaiya nature. If they are
serious devotees, even if they are dras by conditioned nature, they
could attend gurukula because some brahminical qualities will be
there. In the gurukula, those kids generally will learn the culture and
how their art connects to the Lord, but they might not learn a wide
range of knowledge, might not stay as long, and will most likely learn
their art in detail somewhere else.
Also, by knowing the vara we can know whether a brahmacr
should get married or not. If he has brahminical tendencies, then he
does not have to; and we can check and see that. But if you know he
is of a katriya, vaiya, or dra nature, and he is wondering whether
he should get married or not, then you recommend that he does. If
he is brahminical and has strong realizations and simple needs, he
can remain a brahmacr until sannysa.
character. Plus, the gurukula will teach you what to use your material
knowledge for.
68
Bhagratha Dsa: You mentioned that the dras must be ghasthas.

So do they also get brahmacr training?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: As devotees, they can. But for the
nondevotees, it will be difficult.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Education is the environment in which
you learn the philosophy and culture of someone who practices
varrama. It is a training field for society. Civilization endures by
training its next generation. In this way, responsibilities are passed
on and human life continues. Education is the small world wherein
you learn everything you need to know to live outside in the big
world, to function in society.
In varrama, the emphasis of education is always on forming
the character of the student; skills are secondary. In modern
education they will only teach you some skills. Even if you learn a
skill, like operating computers, it will not guarantee that you will
be succesful in the worldbut having good character most likely
will. Are you going to accomplish anything substantial with a fully
materially literate man who is just a polished animal? Where is his
service attitude, his respect for authorities, his understanding of
responsibility, or his ability to work with others? And all of that
is way more important, even materially speaking, to an individual
than that so-called higher-education. No karm school teaches
69

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Sambandha in varrama means
identifying the various stations of human beings according to
their guas and karma, knowing what functions these various
stations ideally perform in society and what the natural harmonious
interactions between the types arefor example, what is the ideal
interaction between a brhmaa and a katriya. Abhideya will be
how they practically relate, what will be the interaction. Prayojana is
the result people get from proper association.
In education, sambandha is the interconnection between the
student, the teacher, and the body of knowledgeknowing what
they are, how they relate with each other, and what each one does
in that relationship. The abhideya will be how they actually interact
and how knowledge will be transferred. Prayojana ends with the
educated student.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Education in the Vedic culture is for
everybody, but what is taught varies according to the child. It is
compulsory that you learn something, but the culture is flexible and
sensitive, as for the subject and method.
In modern education you must learn some language, some math,
some geography, some history, etc. A weakness is that those without
academic abilities are still obliged to study a lot of academics. If a
child does not have an ability in academics, better to teach him some
skill. So in the modern system they should make provisions for those
who do not want academics, and provide learning alternatives to
them. What will they do simply with academics? They do not know
what they should do in any respect. They do not know the philosophy
of Ka consciousness, the culture, their specific occupational
duty, nor how to maintain themselves in society without being
exploited.
It is fundamental to teach children that no matter what one

does, one needs to work hard, and that only with focus and endeavor
can one get anywhere. That is the role of sambandha; it gives the
right perspective. It creates focus, reveals your identity, establishes
your purpose, your relationship to the world, and what you will gain
from that. Then there must be endeavor. Nothing will happen if
you do nothing. Then for the result, you have to depend upon the
Supreme. If you are not a devotee, the result will be according to
your karma; if you are a devotee, Ka consciousness is your fruit.
That is the foundation of knowledge.
That is the difference between traditional and modern. The

modern approach is guesswork, just going back and forth, wavering
between this and that. The materialistic mind cannot reconcile two
seemingly contradicting points. Just like in devotional service: do
we perform activities according to the culture or ritual? Yes. That
is called karma, activity. In Ka consciousness, do we use our
intelligence and try to understand the world? Yes. That is called
jna, knowledge. So karma and jna are natural parts of the
devotional process. But the materialists will argue karma against
jna, and vice versa. The karm will say that only with involvement
can you get a result; the jn will retort that the result has no value,
so why get involved? Like this it wavers. In such a perspective, one
has to be right and the other wrong. The understanding of Vednta
is that on their own, both are wrong, but combined and balanced
in Ka consciousness both are appropriate. We serve Ka with
activity, karma, and knowledge, jna.
So there is a gulf of difference between traditional and modern.
Modern education makes you a karm or a jn, and Vednta makes
you a buddhi-yog, who works with both karma and jna for the
benefit of the Lord. In Vedic education, finding the balance of
karma and jna depends on the nature of the student. Those who
need more karma do more karma, and for the intellectuals you give
more jna.
In formal education, the relationship with the teacher is formal.
In the gurukula system, although the relationship is informal the
student maintains proper etiquette. In the house environment the
student cannot learn very much; because the environment itself is
informal, the student does not take his parents seriously and they do
not take him seriously. But in the school there is mutual respect; there
is an environment of education. So the Vedic system is formal but
at the same time informal. Here again, the Vedic culture navigates
easily between two seemingly contradicting points. You could be
sitting under a treewhich you would not usually call formalor
the teacher instructs the student to wash their clothes, which is also
informal, but they still maintain the etiquette at all time, which is
formal.
70

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Traditional means that it is based upon
the Vedas and the teaching methods used by the previous cryas.
Modern means it is speculative, like the eternal discussion between
Christian theologians: How many angels can dance on the head of
a pin? Similarly, modern academicians speculate endlessly on the
methods of educationlike arguing if the knowledge is put in or
drawn out. Sometimes they try to put it in, and sometimes to draw it
out. Either method will work here and fail there.
The Vedic system is to first put in knowledge and then draw out
understanding, practice, and realization. Unless you put something
in, how are you going to draw it out? It is like a glasswe must first
pour some liquid into the glass if we want to pour something out of
it. Can we pour out liquid from an empty glass? No. But that analogy
is only partial, because the soul has inherent knowledge. Therefore,
what you put in is small compared to what you can draw out. Sat-cit
is knowledge, and God reveals. Ka is in the heart.
For example, if you want to draw out from a child the writing
skills, you first have to teach him the alphabet, the words, the spelling,
and the handwriting; then you can draw out the inherent ability
of a human being to express himself in writing. First you must put
something in; otherwise how will you draw something out? First you
have to put in the conceptswhat the field is, what the elements of
the field are, what the relationships between those elements are, etc.
Once he grasps the field and what results he can get from it, then
you start drawing out his potential. So in the Vedic system, the two
methods are perfectly synthesized.
71
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Modern education is not connected to
Ka. The knowledge they have is in no way connected to the Vedic
tradition and is speculative. The main reasons for its downfall are
its lack of connection to God and its promoting the mood of I am

the controller and enjoyer. This education results in fear, jealousy,
envy, and attachment.
the weaknesses of a situation. Men who do not want to control their

senses and do not want to be sensitive are barbarians. They will be
destructive in nature and will abuse the women. That is what will
happen without training. So, to educate a young man we must first
make him sense-controlled and sensitivea brahmacr. So the
brahmacr is the standard student. And the sincere student will
become a good teacher, if he has the natural propensity to teach
that is to say, if he is brahminical by nature and training.
72

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Basically to have a good student and a
good teacher.
student?
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: A qualified teacher is someone that
wasand always remainsa qualified student. A qualified teacher
has acquired knowledge by hearing from a qualified authority as a
student. The principle is tad viddhi praiptena paripranena sevay.
This is done in three phasesravaa, manana, and nididhysana
as explained earlier. If you want to know, you must hear from a
proper source; only in this way will you get sambandha-jna.
Then the application and contemplation is pariprana. You inquire
submissively because you want to know how something works. When
you start applying that knowledge to the field, questions will arise.
Using your intelligence in contemplation and application, you see
things you could not see before; therefore you have a question,
prana. Humbly asking this question to your authority will churn out
more knowledge. That is pariprana, submissive inquiry.
In this process, humility and respect of authority are mandatory.
This is an important factor of modern educations incompetence;
students will not contemplate and will not know what to do, for they
do not inquire submissively. That proud attitude is futile. Modern
teenagers are useless because of this fact; they cannot inquire
systematically and submissively. When teenagers are submissive,
they advance quickly, because they are so active, dynamic, and
intelligent at that age. Like Abhimanyuhow old was he? He was
just sixteen when he alone destroyed one quarter of the Kauravas
army before noon time. Teenagers can do a lot if they stop being
proud. But because they now hold so dear their arrogant attitude,
they have become useless.
Consequently, being submissive, respecting authority, and
displaying a nice service attitude are compulsory qualities for a
brahmacr. This is so because of the natural weaknesses found in
young boys: they are unclean, disrespectful, lazy, lusty, and proud. In
the Vedic culture, the prescribed duties always work to counterbalance
73

Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: It depends on your school. The medical
schools have their curriculum, and the music schools have theirs.
Basically, you can extract everything you need from traditional
sources if you know how to do it. And anyway, you can trace back
whatever works in modern knowledge to a traditional source. So
education is to know the essence of a subject matter and how to
teach it. You make the point, you elaborate the point, you clear the
doubts on the spot, you give various examples, reconcile opposing
points, and give a conclusion that is applicable in real life. This is
called the science of presentation, or nyya. What you apply is called
the thesis. It depends on what you want. If you are in a Sanskrit
school, why would you need this Western system? You can use the
traditional system, which is better and comes from our cryas.
In our traditional system there are infinite resources on so many
topics. Now, if you need to teach computers, then you use a modern
source, but you still teach according to the traditional waywhat
is a computer, what makes it work, and what can you get from it
(sambandha, abhideya and prayojana).
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: It is everybodys right. But what they get
educated in, that is a privilege.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: It only shows how many people attended
their system and are considered educated by modern standards.
But the literacy ratio is irrelevant for understanding the citizens
maturity in self-realization, which is the real fruit of education.

Unless somebody knows who he is, he is ignorant. Santana
Gosvm knew Sanskrit, Persian, Bengali, etc. He would sit with
thirty Sanskrit paitas while discussing Bhgavatam. He was also
the prime minister of the country. Nawab Hussein was the nawab
of Bengal, which included some parts of Orissa and Bangladesh and
extended up to Assam. There were nine million people in Bengal.
The nawab was so confident in Santana Gosvms management
that he left his kingdom for him to administrate and went out to war.
Santana Gosvm managed all the affairs. He was endowed with
such qualities, but still he said, I do not know who I am. Therefore
I am a fool. Other people, including the academicians, claim that
they are educated. But unless you know who you are, what is the
meaning of education?
Say that I teach you a subject up to a PhD level in ten minutes,
through some mystic siddh, but after half an hour you forget all
of itcould you call yourself educated? Now you have this body,
and you will lose itin the next life you start again, crawling and
cryingcan you maintain that you are educated? No. If you know
your identity, the ultimate goal of life, and the means to obtain it,
then you are educated. If you do not know who you are, how will you
figure out your relationship with anybody else? So how can you say
that you are educated? Okay, you can push buttons and get a job,
get some money, but what are you going to do with that money? You
have plenty of money, but what are you going to do with that money?
You are going to raise a family, provide facilities for that family, but if
you do not your true nature, how will you interact with your family?
How will you get any satisfaction out of that interaction, and how
will you progress in God consciousness? In ignorance, you cannot
do any of that. Your modern education will give you a job to get
money, but unless you are spiritually educated that money will get
you nowhere. Therefore, one is not educated in actuality. You can
say that he is very learned in a particular topic, but that is not actual
knowledge. Unless and until it is connected to God, it will never
become knowledge. Any knowledge devoid of God consciousness
is avidy, ignorance. That is the verdict of the scriptures. So, the
common person is only mildly ignorant whereas the professor is
supremely ignorant. But if he connects his extensive knowledge to
God, that professor will be ahead of the common man. That is why
he is respected.
74
75
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Just study rla Prabhupdas books,

discuss them, associate with devotees, and endeavor sincerely.
Bhagratha Dsa: Thank you for giving us your time, Mahrja. This
has been very interesting.
Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami: Jaya rla Prabhupda!
77
76
Chapter 3
Lecture by His Holiness Bhakti Vika Swami
Vndvana, India, August 2007
Bhaktivinoda hkura has sung one song, jaa-vidy jato, myra

vaibhava. This material education without God consciousness
is expansion of the influence of my. Jaa-vidy jato, myra
vaibhava, tomra bhajane bdh. They are simply impediments
in the matter of advancing Ka consciousness. Tomra bhajane
bdh. Anitya sasre. And why? Now, result of godless material
education means that anitya sasre moha janamiy. We are
already illusioned. Anyone who has come to this material world,
he is illusioned. But advancement of so-called material education
means the increasing of the same illusory propaganda. Jaa-vidy
jato, myra vaibhava, tomra bhajane bdh, anitya sasre
moha janamiy. They are trying to become happy in this temporary
material life. He has forgotten that he is eternal. Even if we become
very happy, temporary life in this life, that will also illusion because
we will not be allowed to stay and enjoy the status. But they do not
understand.
(Lectureonrmad-Bhgavatam3.25.25Bombay,November 1974)
Note: His Holiness Bhakti Vika Swami preferred to address the

topics of the questionnaire by giving a relevant lecture that covers
the questions.
Bhakti Vika Swami: Varnrama-dharma and education are two
related, but different, topics. As a sannysi, who is supposed to be the
head, or the spiritual master, of all the social statuses and orders that
constitute varnrama, it is my duty to understand what education
is and to educate others, so I shall attempt to give good guidance.
Practice and precept are both important in education. Precept
means to give instruction, and here practice means to teach others
by personal example, by personally acting in an exemplary way. There
is a saying in English: Practice is better than precept. Caitanya
Mahprabhu taught by his personal example that pure devotional
service is the ultimate goal of education. Generally when we think
of education, by default we think in terms of formal education.
For instance, attending the rmad-Bhgavata Vidypham4 is
considered educationgoing to school. But education should be
continuous, and should guide a person to progress in all circumstances.
Education is neither restricted to classrooms nor to a certain period
of life. Of course, there is a period of life in Vedic culture more
specifically designated for studies. Education begins from childhood:
kaumra caret prjo dharmn bhgavatn iha
durlabha mnua janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam
One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form
of body from the very beginning of lifein other words, from the
tender age of childhoodto practice the activities of devotional
service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most
rarely achieved, and, although temporary like other bodies, it is
meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional
service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give
one complete perfection. (SB 7.6.1)
4. A school run by the BBT in Govardhana to train devotees in Vednta and Sanskrit.
Bhakti Vika Swami
Knowledge uncovers the nature of things. The first immediate

guru is the mother. She teaches preliminaries. She instructs, Do not
put your hand to your mouth except when you eat, or Brush your
teeth, etc. The formal guru, the spiritual master, is not meant for
teaching these basics. In the modern age, neither the mother nor
the so-called guru teaches these. They themselves are ignorant. So
where is education? I am well aware of the great need to develop real
education, and I am most concerned about it. That is why some of my
disciples come here, because in the Vndvana area, especially at the
rmad-Bhgavata Vidypham, real education can be found.
There also is a pressing need to establish varrama
communities. rla Prabhupda spoke so many times, both formally
and informally, about varrama. Even before coming to the West,
rla Prabhupda wrote extensively about his vision for varrama,
and practically up to his last moment in this world he continued to
preach about it.5 I feel that many of the problems we face in ISKCON
are due to neglecting the remaining fifty percent of the mission that
rla Prabhupda envisionedto establish varrama-dharma.
When we have apprehensions about the possibility of varrama
today, let us remember and consider what rla Prabhupda himself
did. It seemed impossible to market bhgavata-dharma, Ka
consciousness, in Americayet he succeeded. He firmly established
Ka consciousness in the Western countries. The remaining piece,
making varrama communities, will complete his revolution.
Without varrama, we are bound to follow modern cultures. I
often discuss this point with young ghasthas in relation to their
futurewhat should they do now that they are married? We live in a
confused society, a society without clear structure or direction.
The prevalent emphasis on individualism leaves little scope for
shelter or guidance. In a traditionally structured society, one has a
fixed social position; and there is no need to adjust it. For instance,
the social position of a blacksmiths son determines his education.
He learns how to make the horseshoes that are required in a
community that utilizes horses. That specialized individual offers an
essential contribution to the society. It is not possible that everyone
be competent at everything. A properly educated citizeneducated

according to his role and level of competenceis a great asset. In
modern society, no one knows the purpose of life and everyone
behaves foolishly.
An important principle in Ka consciousness is asat-sagatyga, giving up bad association. Ghasthas need land, gha (house),
and children, all of which require economic activity. Due to the lack
of good economic alternatives, devotees nowadays are often forced
to live in bad association, outside a Ka conscious community.
Due to asat-saga, they tend to imbibe materialistic values, which of
course are highly detrimental to spiritual life. Ka consciousness is
based on guru, sdhu, and stra. We must accept the ideals given by
sdhu association, because people in general do not know the goal of
life. They think the goal to be Eat, sleep, drink, and be merry. They
have no understanding of dharma.
78
5. In one of rla Prabhupdas last purports (SB 10.13.5), dictated as he lay on his bed
in Vndvana shortly before his passing, he stated: Varrama-dharma, therefore, is
essential, for it can bring people to sattva-gua. Tad rajas-tamo-bhv kma-lobhdaya
ca ye (SB 1.2.19). Tamo-gua and rajo-gua increase lust and greed, which implicate a living
entity in such a way that he must exist in this material world in many, many forms. That
is very dangerous. One should therefore be brought to sattva-gua by the establishment of
varrama-dharma, and should develop the brahminical qualifications of being very neat
and clean, rising early in the morning, and seeing magala-rtrika, and so on.
79
dharmasya hy pavargyasya nrtho rthyopakalpate

nrthasya dharmaikntasya kmo lbhya hi smta
All occupational engagements are certainly meant for ultimate
liberation. They should never be performed for material gain.
Furthermore, according to sages, one who is engaged in the ultimate
occupational service should never use material gain to cultivate
sense gratification. (SB 1.2.9)
Civilized human life begins with pursuit of dharma, artha, kma,
and moka. Many think that by following dharma, their purposes will
be fulfilled and they will get artha, kma, and moka. But dharma is
not actually meant for fulfilling those goals. One should live simply
and inquire about the absolute truth. To be obsessed with acquiring
money is the result of bad association.
Simply out of common sense, we should strive for these
varrama communities. One important advantage of such
communities would be the possibility for devotees to remain
constantly in good association and abide by our own culture; they
would live according to the ideals given by guru, sdhu, and stra.
Without varrama communities, we are forced to live according
to ideals set by nondevotees. Therefore I maintain that the gurus
of ISKCON (and actually, all devotees are supposed to be gurus)
should emphasize by practice and precept the importance of daivavarrama. By showing a good example of varrama they would
fulfill the desire of rla Prabhupda. If the first generation of
Bhakti Vika Swami
followers of rla Prabhupda has not done much to further the

varrama mission, let the next generation come forward.
Varrama communities are the natural approach to solving
ISKCONs myriad social problemsfor instance, divorce, which
is far too common. Even one case is too many. I am concerned
that many devotees who are trying to address such problems will
ultimately compound them, because the reformers approach is
according to the standards and expectations of modern society,
and their understanding of husband-wife interactions is based on
modern psychology. To deviate from the Vedic angle, in any sphere
of education, is the root cause of every problem. It is the solemn
duty of devotees to base education, lifestyleeverythingon
dharma, as described by stra and tradition. Unfortunately, while
speaking learned words, devotees often do not know what they are
talking about, for they ditto the theories of deluded persons rather
than faithfully repeat stra. Regarding marital relationships, rla
Prabhupda often emphasized that the wife should be submissive to
her husband and the husband should be a first-class devotee. That is
the model to strive for.
Devotees stress the need for mutual compatibility in marriage,
which of course is a major factor. But even more important is the
significance of dharma, duty. Compatibility it is a relative term,
because basically man and woman are not truly compatible. Devotees
should impart education about marital responsibility and should
address issues of marital adjustment according to stric knowledge
of the nature of the genders, not according to some psychological
mumbo-jumbo derived from Darwinism.
life to the service of Ka through these nine methods should be

understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired
complete knowledge. (SB 7.5.2324)
80
Actual education is described by r Prahlda:

ravaa krtana vio smaraa pda-sevanam
arcana vandana dsya sakhyam tma-nivedanam
iti pusrpit viau bhakti cen nava-laka
kriyeta bhagavaty addh tan manye dhtam uttamam
Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form,
qualities, paraphernalia, and pastimes of Lord Viu, remembering
them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful
worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the
Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord ones best friend,
and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving
Him with the body, mind, and words)these nine processes are
accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his
81
This is the best education. Within all cultures of the world, the
scientific understanding of dharma is present only in varrama.
We have made a grave mistake in our movement, the same as made
by the prkta-sahajiys. Because r Caitanya Mahprabhu pointed
out that varrama is external, many devotees in our movement
concluded that we do not need to follow it. However, although
varrama is external to the need of the purified soul, that does
not invalidate the necessity of varrama for regulating the lives of
those who aspire for perfection yet are still influenced by material
desire. Varrama is required to create a favorable condition for the
spiritual progress of the conditioned soul. Hence, rla Bhaktivinoda
hkura wanted to establish the importance of varrama in
Vaiava society.
Varrama-dharma gives specific rules and regulations for
humans in this world so that we will not live like animals. Regulated
life is required for advancement, both in basic human and spiritual
culture. There are many activities required for living as a civilized
person in this worldcivilized according to the Vedic understanding.
These include rising early, taking bath, paying respect to seniors,
worshiping cows, and working according to ones vara and rama.
These are followed by all sections of Vedic society, including
Vaiavas, Myvds, and others. Of course, for the Myvds there
is no question of actual bhakti. But rla Prabhupda explained that
up to the point of liberation, the philosophy of the Myvds and
the devotees is the same; only beyond mukti is there an important
difference. The culture is practically the same, but the Myvds
understanding is wrong.
Varrama is the standard of life for a human being, and if
followed it is very conducive for sdhana-bhakti. For the sdhaka in
bhakti, many rules have been mentioned by r Caitanya Mahprabhu
in his teachings to Santana Gosvm, all to be observed in
conjunction with the basic usages of varrama society. In ISKCON
in the West, due to lack of application of varrama principles,
repeated divorce has come to be accepted; and even basic etiquette
is unknown. For instance, devotees will put their fingers in their
mouth and then turn the pages of rmad-Bhgavatam, not even
knowing that this is an offense. Basic varrama culturewhich
until recent times in India almost everyone, including non-Hindus,
Bhakti Vika Swami
grew up withis part of bhakti. Lord Caitanya said that all these
rules are external to the essence of bhakti. But as the ideal crya,
He Himself personally followed them. Lord Caitanya Himself took
sannysa and observed the rules of that rama very strictly. Pure
devotional service, or bhakti, is above varrama, but acting below
the rules and regulations of varrama will not help one become an
advanced devotee. Everyone should follow the general dharma.
In accord with the express desires of rla Bhaktivinoda
hkura, rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat hkura, and our own
rla Prabhupda, we, as their followers, have the solemn mandate to
reintroduce genuine varramafirst within our own community,
our own occupational system, our own culture.
rla Prabhupda once said that his disciples are too complacent
and underestimate my. We delude ourselves into thinking that we
can simply merge into mys society and remain intact as devotees.
We think that it doesnt matter if we intermix in a society governed
by my. But it does! Those who closely associate with the outside
world imbibe many wrong convictions and habits and do not fully
realize how sick the modern society has become. Consequently,
they assume the values of a society impelled by kma, krodha, moha
and thus make a beeline to hell. Todays society is a complete mess,
and now the culture within ISKCON also has been slaughtered by
mundane education.
As was stated by all truly insightful scholars of the past, rla
Prabhupda also instructed that education is meant to produce
character. For that purpose, previously in the West students were
taught classic Greek and Latin literature. Teaching rmadBhgavatam is meant for the same purpose. Of course, the concept
of high character in rmad-Bhgavatam is significantly more
developed than in Homer, yet the principle is the same, for good
character is foundational to greatness. And without character, it
does not matter how much or what you learn. But what is the result
of modern education? rla Prabhupda explained that it simply
turns people into cats and dogs.
Modern education is producing people who are worse than
animals, but real education is to learn sense controljust the
opposite of what modern education teaches. They teach how to
increase sex. Their education is simply to get a certificate for getting
a job to get money to get food, shelter, sex, and all such things.
People have become full of themselves and proudly say, I have got
this degree. Modern education teaches one to become, at best, a
dra, whereas Vedic education makes one socially independent, like

a brhmaa, because by Vedic knowledge one will not care for luxury
or become attached to anything; he will be satisfied with whatever
he gains naturally. By virtue of realized knowledge, one will not
be a slave of money and rich people. He will possess something far
greaterthe knowledge that brings detachment from the material
world. Modern education binds one to this world and makes people
increasingly greedy and lusty, dedicated to sensual enjoyment.
However, in truth that is not enjoyment, but suffering. What is the
use of an education that leads one astray? It is fascinating to see how
modern educational institutions amass so many topics into weird
conglomerates of information and include them in a useless variety
of studies and courses. rla Prabhupda called it intellectual
animalism, because the so-called intellectuals do not know the goal
of life and live like animals.
82
83
When devotees started the BBT library sakrtana party to sell

sets of rla Prabhupdas books in Western universities, they were
thrilled at the prospect of discussing with scholars of philosophy,
sociology, etc.; it would be so different than selling books in the
street. But the devotees soon experienced that even some famous
professors of Indology were having sex with their students. They
discuss philosophy but have no culture. Real education teaches
respect, but since the advent of modern education, respect has been
lost. The principle of modern education is show no respect, and
acknowledge no absolute truth.
asatyam apratiha te agad hur anvaram
aparaspara-sambhta kim anyat kma-haitukam
(Bg 16.8)
Some so-called intellectuals may study Ka or Ka
consciousness in the manner that others study frogs. They may say,
According to the Gauya Vaiavas, Caitanya Mahprabhu is an
incarnation of Ka. But they will never say that r Caitanya is
Ka. They cannot accept that. They may quote, According to Rpa
Gosvm, Caitanya Mahprabhu is the most munificent incarnation
but thats it. Everything for them is just according to. They do
not accept the facts that rla Jva Gosvm put forth. rla Rpa
Gosvm explained that such intellectuals can never enter or imbibe
our philosophy. Of course, some such intellectuals may superficially
respect the Vaiava cryas, but ultimately they see Vaiavism as
only one among many subjective religious worldviews, one among a
variety of philosophies in a multi-cultural world. They want to remain
Bhakti Vika Swami
objective. That is the modern fashion. rla Bhaktisiddhnta

Sarasvat hkura (in the Harmonist magazine) railed against this
tendency to drag everything down to the mundane platform.
And modernists can never reconcile apparent contradictions.
The cryas understand from stras the superior principles that
clarify paradoxes. Only according to the limited vision of the
mundane mind are the apparent contradictions within stra
perceived as faults. Even the cryas from different sampradyas
may seem to contradict one another, but the underlying principles
of Vaiava understanding are the same. All contradictions are
ultimately resolved in Ka consciousness.
Vedic education demands surrender to the guru. Only then can
one begin to truly learn. The guru should be knowledgeable, well
versed in the stra. And how a disciple should act toward his guru
is described in rmad-Bhgavatam. Along with his friend Sudm,
Ka (in the Tenth Canto) shows by example how to serve the
guru. All aspects of the guru-disciple relationship are portrayed in
the scripturesthe case of Indra, who disregards Bhaspati and is
rejected; the case of Bali Mahrja rejecting his guru; and the case
of Nrada and Vysadeva, a guru instructing his sincere disciple. Is
it not systematic?
The rmad-Bhgavatam is not like modern education, wherein
one can merely read a textbook and expect to digest it by the mind
alone. Vedic knowledge is not like that. It is living knowledge passed
down through the intelligence of pure sages to purify ones own
intelligence. Again, that is why sense control is foremost. With
character training, one becomes pure in heart. Although mundane
scholars may seem to know Gauya Vaiava philosophy, they have
no contact with it because due to impurity they cannot accept
surrender to guru or Ka. They do not understand anything, or
have only a superficial understanding.
On the other hand, someone who may not be very learned
develops so much realization by sincerely hearing with a service
attitude. Paradoxically, without akara-jna, they gain complete
akara-jna. To explain: The former akara-jna refers to
knowledge of the Sanskrit alphabet, from a to ka; in the literal
sense, it means to know how to read and write. In the poetic sense,
the latter aksara-jna refers to knowledge of Ka, who is akara.
A is the beginningKa; ka is the end, like Ka. Hence, akara
refers to Ka as everything from beginning to endfrom a to z.
That is complete knowledge. Even without reading or writing, one
will get everything if blessed by the guru. Even without akara-jna,

he will be blessed with full akara-jna. That is Vedic education. It
is completely different from the modern paradigm.
84
85
In modern education there is no real relationship between the

student and teacher. The teacher takes payment; and as soon as
payment is involved there cannot be any deep education. There is
no genuine relationship involved. Traditional education operates on
the basis of love; the teacher teaches out of affection for the students.
In karma-ka, one must pay his debt to the forefathers by having
a son. On the same principle, there are different debts that one must
pay. One is the debt to the guru: to impart to others the knowledge
that was received. It is a duty, dharma. There is some expectation
from any mundane workdharma rakati rakit. One performs
ones dharma, and by the system of dharma one is maintained in
dharma and thus protected by dharma. Dharma teaches us, and by
the very nature of dharma, education automatically continues. The
conclusions of modern education are that life is for enjoyment and
that one has to fend for himself. Nowadays teaching is a job, and the
teacher is not responsible for anyone. The teacher is going this way
and the student that way.
A complete change is required, and it is a formidable task to
make the shift. First we must establish, on the basis of stra, what
education is. The purpose of education is self-realization. That is the
ultimate goal. People fabricate so many new ideas about education,
but their concocted systems cannot be called education as such.
rla Prabhupda raised many points that a traditional society
would accept as normal and commonsense yet modernists consider
regressive. If modern education is so advanced, where is the improved
result? They are turning students into sub-animals. What is the use
of an education that does not raise ones consciousness?
In the modern world, we lack exemplary role models. We
have some vague conceptions regarding intellectualsmodernday intellectuals being mostly pervertedand a corrupted concept
of vaiyas. Modern businessmen are not pious vaiyas like Nanda
Mahrja. Nor do we find any real dras. Lastly, traditional
varrama society was led by a kingbut where is the king today?
We do not even know the meaning of the word katriya. I heard
some devotees refer to a certain world leader as a katriya because he
sent troops to Iraq. That is not a gua of katriya, but of a gunda
actually, less than a street gunda, because at least a gunda joins in the
fight. There is nothing worthy or noble when a chief executive sits
Bhakti Vika Swami
in a conference room and by telephone sends men (and women!) to

war. The Vedic katriya leads from the front, not from a safe distance.
Modern leaders are by no means katriyas.
A katriya is one who protects from bad elements. Katriyas are
supposed to protect cows; but instead they slaughter them. Katriyas
should oversee a fair society wherein women are protected. Instead,
modern leaders pretend to give women the sacrosanct equal
opportunity, with the result that such liberated women freely
intermix with philanderers, and then the leaders provide the right
for abortion. Such rascals have no idea of what it means to protect
women and children. They encourage women along a path that leads
them to inevitably be exploited. By the way, that India had a woman
as prime minister indicates that there are no katriyas remaining,
for a katriya could never tolerate being ruled by a woman. Modern
politics is bogus. It generates the corruption that we are witnessing
daily. People have no idea what it would be like to have a good king,
a worshipable king. In some countries, they still respect the king so
much, even though he has no real authority.
As for devotees of ISKCON, it is very difficult to press them to
follow varrama as long as they contemplate this kma-krodhamoha society and base their lifestyle on it. The two cannot be mixed.
Television, potato chips, and modern education do not blend well
with strong Ka consciousness. The goal is soon lost if we cultivate
the material outlook of a demoniac society. rla Prabhupda spoke
very strongly against this modern society, a society that is becoming
increasingly complex and degraded.
But unfortunately, ISKCON is not in a position to speak so
strongly. ISKCON is already forty years old, not so young anymore,
yet we have failed to offer any solid alternative. We should not
remain frail but should try to rectify the situation. Although it is
a big task to establish varrama, we have to show people that
it is possible to live in a better manner, that humans do not need
factories to be civilized. People think it is necessary to manufacture
everything by industries. They are convinced that unless humans
work in a factory or office, civilization is not possible. So we must
show them. If we have such varrama communities, many people
will come forwardespecially in the West, where people are looking
for a natural alternative. But in India, sadly the talk is all about
this modern kind of progress. They think it is wonderful to get
a job and earn lots of money. Even many devotees think like that.
But in the West, even many nondevotees are sick of this modern
world and are hankering for an alternative. If we can show them an

effective, working model of a non-exploitive society, many will be
attracted.
Some devotees in America occasionally preach among various
groups and communities who are interested in alternative living. By
preaching at neo-hippie festivals, they are able to bring new devotees
to the temple. I told some of those preachers that if they make a farm
community, they need not go to the hippiesthe hippies will come
to us. rla Prabhupda said that people will join our farms by the
millions. There is so much that can be said about this, but ultimately
we need to simply do it. We have a few projects up and running, like
the Gaura Vndvana farm in Brazil. The more farm projects we
have through which to show an alternative way of living, the more
we will be taken seriously. Nowadays many progressive people are
looking for an alternative to oil and for independence in energy.
During the artificial petrol crisis in 1975, rla Prabhupda said that
we can always use bullock carts as a permanent solution. Why do we
need to travel five thousand kilometers, or even fifty kilometers, in
a day? There is no need. This is the solution to the petrol crisis.
rla Prabhupda told his disciples to write books addressing
these issuesfor instance, The economic problem: how can it be
solved? rla Prabhupda said that we do not need money, that if
we dont have money we will not have any economic problem. The
prime bodily necessities are roti (food), kapar (clothing), and makn
(shelter). In traditional society, money meant gold. But gold also
complicates life. Vaiyas and katriyas may need it, but brhmaas and
dras do not. Gold can create the possibility of cheating, so what to
speak of all of these modern exchanges based on arbitrary principles.
Printed paper currencies are an unscrupulous arrangement whereby
governments levy heavy taxes and create corruption. All these
nuisances are created by artificial governance.
Bhagiratha Dsa: Can varrama-dharma be established in modern
society?
Bhakti Vika Swami: Yes and no. Some devotees say that it is not
possible to have varrama in modern times, but rla Prabhupda
said that it is possible. Can it be established in the present society? No.
It has to be established beside or outside it. The present setting is too
far gone. To bring forth varrama is the greatest revolution. People
have no idea how significant this revolution will be. It is not weak,
like communism, capitalism, socialism, humanism, or something of
that nature. Those are based on similar mundane principles, the
86
87
Bhakti Vika Swami
essence being to organize society in a way to forget Kathus their

atheistic educational system. The ideal of utilitarianism is to bring
the greatest happiness to the greatest number of individuals; that
should be the principle of organizing society. But the deluded peoples
idea of happiness is to have opportunity for unrestricted indulgence
of the senses. Especially in modern society, the underlying belief is
that there should be ever increasing facilities for sense enjoyment.
rla Prabhupda gave a clear plan to create an ideal society.
He explained that we do not require all these modern facilities like
electricity and motorcars but just need to take shelter of the holy
name and live from the land. We do not need all these artificial
gadgets. Previously, for hundreds and thousands of years, people
lived without electricity. To get electricity involves soul-killing
ugra-karma and massive overendeavor. Huge pylons must be erected
everywhere, so many big holes must be dug, the atmosphere becomes
polluted, and then we get to pay the bills. It seems convenient, but
it is not. We do not realize how much harm we accept just for the
convenience of this little flickering bulb. rla Prabhupda was a
tattva-dar, a seer of the truth. He saw the truth of all these matters
and set in motion the greatest revolution to rectify the situation. By
his grace, his followers have the knowledge that can, as he said, save
human society in its darkest hour. To do so, we must first of all have
faith in rla Prabhupdas mandate, and then must arise from our
collective sloth to actualize it.
not need to follow the rules and regulations of the ghastha-rama.

In fact, a reason why dras would not study stras is because they
are less regulated. Following the regulations is a reflection of good
consciousness.
This is my reply: if one is actually a Vaiava, he should be
above the rules of varrama, not below them! He must follow at
least some basic culture of varrama. But if one does not follow
the prescriptions given in stra, he will follow what is given by
Hollywood, Bollywood, or elsewise, because everyone must follow
something. Man is a social animal, so he must follow some social
norms. If we do not follow the culture given by Ka and the cryas,
we will follow the culture of a sick society. ISKCON will adopt (or
rather, to a large extent has already adopted) the social norms and
outlook of culturally decrepit nations like America and Germany,
with mundane ideas of equality and the absence of a culture of
respect.
The principle of guru-bhakti is very difficult for people in
Western countries to accept. In England, or America, the book Jesus
and Me is popular. They do not like structures of authority. I am
afraid that the current system of education in ISKCONteaching
Prabhupadas books using a system similar to modern education
reflects that same Western mindset and that the outcome could
convey the same distorted mood. Instead of studying by using the
modern system, why do we not establish Kas system? Why do we
attach so much significance to a Ph.D.? That is just a certificate, a
piece of paper. Upon completing a Vedic education, one does not
get a certificate. The certificate is the yaja-upavta. The student
is accepted by the crya, he sincerely studies under him, and his
certificate is a developed charactercryavn puruo veda.
Devotee: rla Prabhupda emphasized the importance of varrama
and told his disciples to establish it. He told them to guide general
society on this matter. But in some other conversations, he said not
to consider a Vaiava according to bodily conceptions, to never
think of a Vaiava simply in the framework of varrama: Dont
think yourself a brhmaa, katriya, etc., but just teach people how
to behave properly. So how do we apply this in a practical way in our
varrama communities?
Bhakti Vika Swami: rla Prabhupda said that the devotee may
act as a brhmaa, katriya, or vaiya to teach others, just like the
teacher teaches A-B-C. But we know that all living entities are gopbhartur pada-kamalayor dsa-dsnudsa. We are not to identify with
88
Devotee in the audience: By following devotional service, all good

qualities will come. So why do we need to get into this varrama
again to train people for proper behavior?
Bhakti Vika Swami: So do Vaiavas not follow the principles
of varrama? Certainly they do. One of the good qualities of a
devotee is that he follows the injunctions of astra. Does anyone
think that good qualities come due to not following these principles?
Not following is not a good symptom. I do not understand why
devotees tend to think that if we dont follow varrama, our
bhakti will be better. Varrama is a divine social structure meant
to regulate every aspect of human life, so that people may follow
the norms given by the Lord and progress spiritually. Many of the
rules are meant for healthfor example, cleaning the teeth. Taking
good care of the teeth is a healthy practice; everyone should do it.
One should be a brahmacr, a ghastha, a vnaprastha, or a sannysi
and should follow the relevant social rules and regulations for his
rama. It is not true that because one is a Vaiava ghastha, he does
89
Bhakti Vika Swami
the body, but for the sake of the general population, to show them
how to live, we must assume these roles. rla Prabhupda explained
this point again and again, yet devotees still ask this same question
again and again. Why cant they catch this simple point?
Everything that rla Prabhupda said was correct because

he spoke Bhagavad-gt as it is. Many of his statements are today
politically incorrect. We have to choose whether to be followers
and representatives of rla Prabhupda and the parampar or
to be politically correct. Unfortunately, much of ISKCON today,
including the official education system, has veered toward political
correctness.
Unless one is willing to accept guru-mukha-padma-vkya cittete
kariy aikya, he will not understand anything. We should try to
understand what the crya presented to us, not what we think should
be presented to us. This cannot make a good disciple. When we do
not understand, we should inquire humbly from faithful seniors and
try harder. There is a good example for this. In the Bhagavad-gt (4.1),
Ka explains that He spoke the same knowledge to Vivasvn long
ago, and that it came down successively to Manu and Ikvku. Arjuna
became confused:
90
Administration is sometimes also done by brhmaas, not only

by katriyas. Actually, a katriyas administration should be under
the counsel of brhmaas. Even in a simple house there is some
system of management. A maha is managed by brhmaas. Some
vaiya communities, like that of Nanda Mahrja, were not directly
overseen by a katriya but by a vaiya. So it requires much study,
prayer, and realization to understand how to apply varrama in
the modern age. Bhakti Vidy Pra Mahrja has dedicated his life
to studying and instituting Vedic education and varrama, so why
dont we learn from him? Once, in Mypur, a teacher in MIHET
asked me for advice on this topic, and I told him, Why ask me? His
Holiness Bhakti Vidypra Mahrja is here. Go ask him.
Of course, there are certain points in rla Prabhupdas
books that we might find controversial. For instance, in the first
chapter of Bhagavad-gt As It Is, rla Prabhupda states: Women
are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy.
Unless we examine such topics from the perspective of siddhnta,
we will not reach the truth concerning them. What happens in
ISKCON education today is that these points are discussed among the
students but no conclusive siddhnta is given. Hence, we are actually
introducing relativism by the implied reasoning that any opinion
is as good as the other. This is not introducing rla Prabhupdas
message as it is, but Myvda philosophy: rla Prabhupda said
this, but I cannot accept it. So I wont teach it as it is. Then why
study Prabhupadas books at all? Worse still, why propose to teach
them if we do not (or do not want to) explain every point therein?
It is the siddhnta that we should understand and accept. Arjuna
said:
sarvam etad ta manye yan m vadasi keava
na hi te bhagavan vyakti vidur dev na dnav
O Ka, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me.
Neither the demigods nor the demons, O Lord, can understand
Your personality. (Bg 10.14)
91
apara bhavato janma para janma vivasvata

katham etad vijny tvam dau proktavn iti
Arjuna said: The sun god, Vivasvn, is senior by birth to You.
How am I to understand that in the beginning You instructed this
science to him? (Bg 4.4)
Arjuna did not say, What are you talking about? This is
nonsense! He said, katham etad vijny: How will I understand
it? He acknowledged that Ka was much senior in knowledge and
therefore understood what Arjuna did not. Arjuna asked Ka to
explain what seemed impossible to him, and Ka did. He explained
that all of us have had many births, that He remembers them all, but
that we do not.
So the same thing here: Well, Prabhupda made a mistake. Selfsufficiency is not practical. Varrama does not apply; therefore
we should not introduce it. No. We should find out the right way
to apply itthats all. Undoubtedly, many devotees fear that the
introducing of varrama will lead to exploitation, especially of
women. And it is true that the caste system in India, which was a
perversion of the original varrama setup, was (like any system
that does not establish Ka clearly in the center) exploitive, and
that naturally the weaker sections suffered the most. It is a great
challenge to our devotees to institute varrama without the
discrepancies commonly associated with it. But we should notas
Bhakti Vika Swami
many devotees have donereject the whole endeavor of instituting

varrama. Rather, we should work on getting it right.
Another common misconception among devotees is that rla
Prabhupda intended to introduce varrama in a wholly new
format. This idea is based on the observation that in the beginning
of his mission in the West, rla Prabhupda did not introduce all
the rules of varramafor example, men and women were not
so strictly segregated. It is true that since most of his early followers
were former hippies, rla Prabhupda did not immediately try
to impose Vedic culture on them. However, when he noted that
many of his disciples were not living up to the standards of Ka
consciousness and were even falling down, rla Prabhupda started
to emphasize the need to introduce within ISKCON more aspects
of varrama-dharma. Consequently, brahmacrs and sannyss
became much more reserved in their dealings with womenmen
and women were segregated in the temple, while taking prasda, and
in other places. Some argue that rla Prabhupda did not personally
introduce all those regulations, that they were pushed forward by
certain sannyss with a sexist agenda. But rla Prabhupda was
aware of all those changes and did not reverse them, for they were
indeed concordant with his teachings. Clearly, rla Prabhupda
wanted a culture wherein men and women do not mix like cats and
dogs, as in modern society.
However, a thorough study of rla Prabhupdas books clarifies
that even before he ventured to America he had written extensively
on the need for varrama, that the varrama system he planned
to introduce was according to stric principles, and that therefore
the second phase of his movementthe varrama phasewould
be dramatically different from the first.6
Bhakti Vika Swami: Yes, he did say that. He also said that the
women should be obedient to their husband, and made similar
statements according to stric and traditional lore, all of which were
quite opposite to the present zeitgeist. rla Prabhupda openly said
to an unsympathetic female feminist reporter that all problems in
human society are caused by womens not being submissive to men.
It is a heavy statement. According to modern mythology, men and
women should intermix freely, they are equal, and the entire history
of human civilization is one of suppression of women.
Devotee: In the First Canto, when Parkit chastises Kali, rla
Prabhupda gave a very practical point that needs to be implemented:
co-education.7
92
Devotee: I remember one statement by Prabhupda about the chaos

of mixing men and women.
6. Kuldri Dsa: I was the temple president at New Vndvana for so many years, and
Prabhupda had a vision for a pilgrimage site and farm community in North America. So he
never emphasized book distribution to us. He explained to me thatespecially at the end,
when I was with him in Bombay and in Vndvana, just before he leftthat the second
half of his movement would be dramatically different than the first half, i.e. the emergency
tactics that he used to distribute books and give young people sannysa and open as many
temples as possible. He wanted places like New Vndvana to establish the culture of Ka
consciousness with colleges, ghastha lifestyle, and all of the things to demonstrate the
philosophy that he was so careful to present in his books. So right up to the end he was
telling me that the farm communities were so important for the second half, and the vision
would be so different than when his movement got started in the Western world.
(From a transcript of Following rla PrabhupdaDVD 10)
93
Bhakti Vika Swami: I see that to be an intermediate comment.

Later on, rla Prabhupda said that he did not want the daughters
of his disciples to attend these so-called schools and be polluted.
But nowadays who is teaching that? rla Prabhupda said that the
girls should mainly learn two things: how to cook nicely and how
to be chaste. These are the primary subjects to be taught to young
girls, along with a basic education so that they can read our Gauya
Vaiava literature. They should mainly learn how to be good
devotees, and their curriculum should be Prabhupdas books. rla
Prabhupda also taught about womens education in the context of
varrama. When a brahmacr marries, he becomes the guru of his
wife and proceeds to teach her what he learned in the gurukula. The
essence of what he knows should be duly taught to his wife. In this
way, she also gains the benefit of a higher education even though she
did not attend gurukula. A woman should receive her education at
homein youth, from her family members, and after marriage, from
her husband. She is naturally meant for home education.
I have been informed that some devotees explain away my
outspoken statements on these touchy subjects as being just
Bhakti Vika Swamis own weird ideas. But please scrutinize
rla Prabhupdas books and conversations. See for yourself what
he is saying. Many devotees do not know these things. Even rla
Prabhupdas simple statement that the daughters of his disciples
should not attend school and should be educated at home is unknown
7. This is in the context of instructions to eradicate corruption in a state: There must
be compulsory marriage of young boys and girls attaining twenty-four years of age and
sixteen years of age respectively. There is no harm in co-education in the schools and
colleges, provided the boys and girls are duly married, and in case there is any intimate
connection between a male and female student, they should be married properly without
illicit relation. (SB 1.17.38 purport)
94
to most devotees. How many know these things? This is not my

craziness. If we want to know, we must learn from rla Prabhupda.
Some statements of rla Prabhupdas were so heavy that we cannot
repeat them publicly.
Devotee: You mentioned in regard to the petrol crisis, Dont use
petrol! Then how are we going to travel from Western countries to
Vndvana, for example?
Bhakti Vika Swami: Keep the plane only for devotees; otherwise
it is of no use. Or make Vndvana everywhere; create the same
atmosphere.
Devotee: Does varrama refers only to farms, or is there something
more to it?
Bhakti Vika Swami: We should have cities also. But the overall
economy should be based on agriculture. The city is what in the old
European culture was called the market town. Villagers bring their
crops and handicrafts to the market. They can barter to acquire what
they do not produce in their own village. Those cities are similar
to what rla Prabhupda envisaged for Mypur city; they have
relatively small populations. The whole ambience should be quite
different from that of modern mega-cities.
Obviously the topic of varrama is vast and requires much
research. And not just researchsteps must be immediately
taken toward practical implementation. I applaud the varrama
initiative headed by r Bhakti Rghava Swami and others, and urge
all devotees to get involved, at least at some level. In this endeavor,
we are likely to make many mistakes, as we already have in the past,
but we should not become discouraged. Rather, we should learn
from our errors and go forward with faith in rla Prabhupda and
Ka.
Thank you all very much. All glories to rla Prabhupda!
95
97
96
Chapter 4
Interview of rman tmatattva Dsa
Every material things deteriorate and it becomes useless at
certain length of time. Any machine, any clock... Therefore it has
been taken as dress: vssi jrni yath vihya (Bg. 2.22). So
this is going on, but unfortunately modern universities, educational
systems, they do not know anything about this. And still, they are
very much proud of advancement of education. Actually, there is
no education. Without this knowledge, spiritual knowledge, this
education for earning bread, eating, sleeping, mating... That can be
done without education. The animals, they are not educatedthey
are not technologists, or they have no education in the universities,
degreestheyre also eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So
if our education is meant for simply eating sleeping, mating and
defending, then what is the difference? That is not education. Real
education is to understand what you are. That is real education.
tma-jna.
(Lecture on rmad-Bhgavatam 6.1.8New York, July 1971)
The fact is that these fools, these rascals who are thinking that this
world is for their enjoyment, this money belongs to him... It is stated
here, avidua. Avidua means rascal, without any education.
Without any education. They have got all these university degrees
and without education? Yes. Why? Because they have no spiritual
education.
(Lecture on rmad-Bhgavatam 7.9.11Montreal, August1968)

Sahydri r Ka-Balarma Ketra, Karnataka, India, May 2007
tmatattva Dsa: As I understand, our books emphasize that
education should develop or train one to have an equal vision:
vidy-vinaya-sampanne brhmae gavi hastini
uni caiva va-pke ca pait sama-darina
(Bg 5.18)
Equal vision is seeing beyond the temporary, external
identifications. This constitutes real education, or real vidy. To see
beyond the updis, beyond the bodily distinctions, one has to have
a thorough understanding of what is matter, of what is spirit, and
how they are related. In order to impart this understanding, which is
not just some theoretical theosophy, thirty-two different aspects are
mentioned as vidys in the Upaniads. The foremost among them is
brahma-vidy. In the Bhagavad-gt, Lord Ka imparts this vidy
to Arjuna through their discussion. Brahma-vidy is the knowledge
of the eternal spirit, and it begins by giving good understanding of
both matter and spirit.
There are sixty-four arts, even though at present most of them
may not be manifested. Thirty-two of them are crafts that support
different aspects of the other thirty-two arts. For example, the art of
painting calls for a craft dealing with canvas, the ingredients of the
paint, etc. This defines art and craft, or skill. The list of the sixty-four
arts can be found in the Brahma-sahit and other sources. The arts
listed will vary in different reference books, but when we examine
them holistically, we will find that they all deal with the same topic:
how to deal with matter in relation to its source, the Supreme. These
sixty-four arts are all put to use when someone is trained to practice
tmatattva Dsa
the sixty-four cras (personal behaviors) and to offer the sixty-four

corresponding upcras (procedures) to the Supreme. The stras
thus indicate the presence of a proper method by which we can
educate the students on sixty-four cras and upcras; the method
includes all of the sixty-four arts. We may not be able to start classes
on all these sixty-four arts immediately. We have to do research on
these arts and establish how many are needed.
Bhagratha Dsa: Are all these sixty-four arts still available nowadays?
tmatattva Dsa: Some of them are not availablefor example,
learning, understanding, and speaking the language of birds, or the
weaponry science whereby one directs weapons by sound vibration.
There is also mention in the scripture of a method to make certain
weapons by changing the constitution of its metal via mantras. My
enquiry with different people and research suggests that this kind
of science of mantra vibration cannot be applied to contemporary
students; apparently, they lack the necessary capacity for vibration
and concentration, and of purity in chanting these mantras. Similarly,
in ilpa-stra (the art of sculpture), the sthpati (sculptor) could
reduce the density of the rock by chanting mantras. Therefore, any
huge or dense rock could be carved just as easily as carving butter,
and could be raised to any height.
There is the interesting example of the unique Bhadvara
temple in Tanjavur, a big temple for Lord iva, with its huge sanctum
tower of more than two hundred feet high. Its kalaa, the structure
on the top, which is very large and heavy, weighs about eighty
tons. The method adopted to raise and finally place that heavy
monolith has evoked several speculations among the archaeologists.
British archeologists think that a long ramp measuring about thirty
kilometers, beginning from a village close by, was built for the purpose.
But simple common sense itself refutes that it is not practical to roll
up such a huge and heavy rock for thirty kilometersespecially with
only bamboo available as construction material for the ramp, and no
complex mechanism available at the time.
and it was lifted like a piece of cotton to the top. This temple was
built by the Chola kings in the eleventh century ADnot some prehistoric time. It brings to attention the purity and clarity of their
concentration. It may sound ideological, but if the sthpatis, or those
learning from them, possess marked purity and concentration, then
it is possible. Even in this age this can be achieved. At least sixty to
seventy percent of that knowledge is available in the scriptures; so by
having the required purity, these feats can be performed within the
age of the holy name.
This is not just a theory; it is as real as any science. In modern
technology, a few years ago, computers meant very big giant boards;
now they are very compact and have a capacity of so many gigabytes.
As the gross approach to matter deepens, people are able to make this
kind of technological advancement. Ten years ago, mobile phones
were unheard of in India. When Graham Bell connected two boxes
with a wire, saying that we can speak from here and be heard from
there, it was dismissed as a dream. It is the same case with sound
vibration. The system has to be unlocked and the information made
manifest for practical use. If the gross approach can accomplish some
wonders, why wouldnt the subtle approach do at least as much? With
proper training we can develop those kinds of abilities.
98
Bhagratha Dsa: Also there is the fear of the rock breaking in the
middle.
tmatattva Dsa: Yes, and who will carry it? Somebody has to carry
it and manually place it on top via the rampanother impossibility.
So, we have to admit that there was another technology present.
In ilpa-stra, the accomplishment of this task has been simply
attributed to mantras. The sthpatis were experts in the chanting
of sound vibrations. The vibrations reduced the density of the rock,
99

tmatattva Dsa: These are not two entirely different things. rla
Prabhupda always referred to it as creating the brain of society.
It can be understood through the example of a body. If we train the
brain, and it keeps functioning properly, the rest of the body acts
properly, as it is guided by the brain. Similarly, by depending upon
the regulated process of chanting the holy name, the devotees are
trained to act as the brain of society and guide the rest of the world.
The devotees are made to understand temporary and eternal qualities.
Depending on the strength of chanting the holy name, they go out as
missionaries. A devotee, who has a pure personality, is compassionate
and tries to relieve others of miseries by distributing knowledge. He
possesses the otherwise rare qualities of regulation and self-control;
everyone will eventually value his advice on everything, as we have
already seen practically. This is how the devotees gradually become
the brain of society. With better training, nicer education, and more
rapt analytical study of our books, the possibility to guide society
increases.
tmatattva Dsa
There are several essential topics to understand for such

missionaries leading the citizens. However, it all comes back to the
strength of the holy name, to purity, and to regulated service
sdhana. Ka says, I give the intelligence by which one can come
to me, dadmi buddhi-yoga ta yena mm upaynti te (Bg 10.10).
It is thus reasonable that various ways of guiding society will, in due
time, manifest to the devotees; their duties of acting as the brain will
become complete.
Bhagratha Dsa: By our books do you mean strictly rla

Prabhupdas books?
100

tmatattva Dsa: I am not very educated to say, but we can see,
by practical experience and the observations of our cryas, its
limits. First, in modern education there is no development of the
personality according to the propensity of the student. Besides that,
there is no knowledge of what is temporary and what is permanent.
In modern education, moh (the bewilderment of taking the
temporary as the all in all) is the main defect. Because of that kind
of value, a persons dealing will be confined to the temporary. He has
no information about the eternal spirit soul. These two aspects are
missing. Their advancement is very much like running in a circle
if not gliding down to hell. These are the main defects, according to
my understanding.
tmatattva Dsa: Mostly, it is our poor understanding of the Vedic
principles found in our books, especially in their application to
different places, countries, and climates. We have a difficulty in
connecting people of various backgrounds to the Vedic culture. First,
we should introduce the strength of the holy name and encourage
people to chant. We will then be able to see how these different
persons can be trained and engaged. The introduction of the holy
name and the basic principles of pure life help us to know and
understand a person beyond his bodily designation; we can perceive
how he identifies with matter as well. A problem has to be made
clear before we can deal with it. Our main difficulty lies in not being
able to apply the system of Vedic education according to place, time,
and circumstance. The solution is a deeper study of Vedic education,
as presented in our books. This will lead to proper implementation,
if we put in the effort.
101
tmatattva Dsa: Principally rla Prabhupdas books. What he has

given is our ultimate source of information about Vedic education.
We do not base our effort in Vedic education on books other than his.
We are discussing how to educate, how to impart Vedic education,
and the difficulties that we find are mostly in implementation. We
have first heard about this education from rla Prabhupdas books;
that is how it all started. Therefore, first we must have clear and
thorough knowledge of what is explained in these books. Then, in
his books he gives reference to further booksbut the first thing is
to digest what is expressed within our books. We have to grasp what
rla Prabhupda explained as Vedic education and how he wanted
it applied. Today, for instance, if we say A boy that reaches five
years old should be sent to study in the forest university, that would
not work. We simply do not have any forest to send him. We have a
little forest in Hebri,8 but we do not have any facility for a five-yearold child to do something of value. We need first to study our books,
take everything that is mentioned there about education, and see
how it can be applied in places like Bali, Vndvana, Mypur, etc. I
think these are the main difficulties.
We generally agree that Vedic education is the best, that
traditional education is the best, and hold all of it to be true. But
the difficulty comes when we avoid the instructions and their
application by claiming that we cannot do more than what we are
already doing, or that those instructions are not practical. We suffer
from niyamgraha: we are either at one extreme, following the rule
without seeing the principle, or at the other, rejecting the rule
altogether.
rla Prabhupda said that if you complain about a problem
you must propose a solution as well. In this line, in observing the
difficulties that we have in education, I advance the solution of
proper analytical studyfirst of our books, and then if needed,
from other relevant stras. rla Prabhupda left us over forty huge
volumes. If you just go to the index under Education, there is so
much information. There are hundreds and hundreds of lectures
and conversations. We should collect this information and classify
it properly. Then, an interaction between devotees who are trying
8. Sahydri r Ka-Balarma Ketra, an ISKCON farm project and Varrama College,
started by Bhakti Rghava Swami near Udupi, in Karnataka, South India.
102
to implement the system is needed to see how it is applicable in

different places. This is crucial.
I remember reading a letter9 where rla Prabhupda wrote that
if you cannot run a gurukula in that place as I am telling you, just
close and send the children to Vndvana. I am sure you will be able
to find that correspondence. In some places it is illegal to have your
own system of education and make your own curriculum. In those
circumstances our effort has to be introduced as extra-curricular
activities, or in the form of artor whatever, but it must be. Collect
all the information available on education in our books, interact
with devotees to make a system that is applicable, understand the
limits of application, find ways to go around difficulties, and in that
way make it as close as possible to the Vedic standard. If we cannot
bring a child of five years to the rama, then see if we can bring one
of seven. In Thailand, they keep a system where every man has to be
a monk for two years of his life. One may take to it after the age of
six, or at sixty, but the whole purpose is to train them as monks.
tmatattva Dsa: We have to undertake a deeper study of our books
and seriously try to apply them in different places. This is quite a
challenging task. Unless one is genuinely interested and dedicated
to doing so, it will not be possible for him to succeed; everything
will remain theoretical. There may be other parallel solutions to
the problem, like collecting information from various authoritative
sources and meeting successful traditional educators. We have many
options if we just think about it.
9. We cannot be forced to follow the standards of the mlecchas and yavanas. One may
build so many buildings to follow this and that code, but the basic principle of such codes is
sense gratification which we are against. There are so many thousands of buildings in the
West which are filled with illegalities, but how is it that we must come to a perfect standard
or be closed down? This is not the standard of law, but prosecution. If in illusion we think
that we must spend money to come to that standard what guarantee is there that they will
not simply find another standard for us to follow which will cause so much more trouble
and cost so much more money and ultimately they will pass some law making the gurukula
illegal.
Therefore the school should be moved to India, specifically to our new gurukula project
in Vndvana, where the facility will be just to our needs and the needs of the brahmacrs
to develop spiritually because it is based on authentic scripture. To live in Vndvana is the
highest perfection and to grow up in Vndvana the greatest fortune. Who can compare
Vndvana to the nasty Western culture? Even to live in Mathur-maala for a fortnight
guarantees one liberation. In Vndvana no one will place restrictions on the school and
it will be encouraged by the government. (Letter to JayatrthaMypur, January 1976)
10. On the next pageprem pumartho mahnis from Caitanya-maju, a commentary
on rmad-Bhgavatam by rntha Cakravart.
tmatattva Dsa
103

tmatattva Dsa: Wherever there is life there will also be the different
attainments in life: dharma (religion), artha (economic development),
kma (sense gratification), and moka (freedom from miseries).
Beyond these four is the aim of the soul, developing attraction
10 Forgetfulness
and love for the Lord, prem pumartho mahn.
of the Lord results in ones tendency to lord it over matter. By the
Lords perfect system, this lording tendency can be purified, and one
will see that apart from dharma, artha, kma, and moka, there is
bhakti, the real aim of life.
It is one thing to know that there is a problem, another to
understand its nature, and still another to solve it. In the modern
system, the problem is not at all understood because there is no
training. Nobody wants to talk about the real problem, especially
not politicians, because they know that they do not have a solution.
Prabhupda mentions this in many lectures, like in Moscow, where
he said that the real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease.
Even before going for a solution, we need to understand the problem
and know what is temporary and what is eternal, what dies and
what does not die, the stages of life, and how to conduct life in a
progressive manner.
First we observe the difficulty, and then we give a prescription.
Prabhupda many times pointed out that vara and rama are
where human civilization begins. Basically, civilization entails the
presence of books of knowledge; if such books are absent there is no
proper civilization. In stra, we find the knowledge of the natural
divisions of society and of the training needed to transform the
lording tendencies into surrender. So the foundation is to find out
the lording propensities and give the adequate prescription. We
consider how much a person is ka-bahirmukha (averse to Ka),
what exactly is influencing him to become that way, and how to
guide him to become konmukhathe principle of nirbandhaka-sambandhe.
society?
tmatattva Dsa: The answer is yes, varrama can be established
but the application is delicate. There is no room for varrama not
getting established; without it, human society is not civilized. Where
is human society getting its education? We do not see true education.
tmatattva Dsa
Prabhupda said that there is no use for cats and dogs to hear a lecture
on the Bhagavad-gt; they would not understand. The question is
not if varrama can be established or notit must bebut how
to proceed. The difficulty is that we cannot manifest it exactly in
the same fashion everywhere, in every circumstance exactly as in
all other places. There is no debate; it can and it should be done.
The concern should be for the practical application of varrama
everywhere, despite the differences. Maybe it needs to be called by a
different name in particular places, and there the terminology needs
to be adjusted, but still there should be a varrama system. Even
in the most modern system, you will find an administration, a work
force, etc. We find those divisions everywhere. It is not that it is
absent in modern society; it is there also, but their goal is not to
satisfy r Hari.
The satisfaction of r Hari is the main factor. You cannot mold
an atheistic society into varrama because the goal of varrama
is theistic. Varrama is to elucidate the cause of peoples
perplexity in reference to the soul. Everything is seen spiritually and
individually. We observe the specific difficulties of the individuals
and guide them to use their tendencies properly, changing their goal
from the temporary to the permanent. If there is no reference to
God and soul, there is no possibility of establishing a system of var
and rama, because the method is theistic. Varrama is spiritual,
and we cannot set up the system avoiding these two. The answer is
that it can be done. We have to contemplate and find the fitting
application for a variety of situations, thats all.
application may vary a little in different localities, but the essentials

should remain self-control and purity. Those we cannot change.
104
Bhagratha Dsa: How do you do that? Do you imply the need to

study the inherent culture of a location?
tmatattva Dsa: In certain places there are limitations due to
their background, culture, etc. To apply the varrama system, you
have to connect it with what is available and elevate that situation
gradually, step by step, toward the ideal. In doing that, we may call it
by different names, or start from different platforms, but the essence
is still education. It does not mean that in every place we will have
staunch saffron-cloth brahmacrs and white-clothed ghasthas
who will take bath only with cow dungand that you will never
see couples walking together. There are mukhya (essential) and
gaua (subsidiary) principles. If one gives too much importance to
subsidiary rules, one might miss the actual goal. So the mukhya has
to be seen firstwhat is essential and most important. For example,
in Vedic training the essentials are sense control and purity. The
105
Bhagratha Dsa: So the two most essential things that need to be

imparted to the modern society are soul and God?
tmatattva Dsa: If there is no sense control, the knowledge of the
self is impossible. Without purity, God is not visible. This is the way.
You get the soul by sense control, tasmt tvam indriyy dau. To
uplift the present situation to the Vedic system, we need to bring
about this change. The present system nurtures an increase in sense
gratification. If there is no sense control, the vision of the soul is lost.
When you lose that vision, you become a prey, a sacrificial animal to
impure things. Once impure, there is no perception of the science of
God. Sense control and purity are essential principles, mukhya. One
may walk using wooden shoes or rubber slippers; things of that sort
constitute gaua, subsidiary principles. This does not necessarily call
for the same standard everywhere. That is the guideline, practically
speaking, for the division of society. That is why vara is first and
arama comes next. The vara will give you the essential worldly
identity of the person. The method for accordingly uplifting that
individual spiritually is the arama.
understood?
tmatattva Dsa: Yes, they are not easily understood because of the
confusion about vara and arama arising from the past. We can see
this from the story of gi misusing his brahminical power. We are
talking of almost five thousand years of misuse, and we are left with
a kind of false caste systemreferring only to the persons external
birth and a rigid identification with a community, not to the real
birth, the dvija birth. Confusion pervades, and the advent of Lord
r Caitanya clears it by bringing in the catalyst of the holy name.
When this ultimate catalyst is inserted into this puzzled society, it
immediately begins to regenerate. I must stress that any solution
depends on the pure chanting of the holy name and the consequent
increase in purity. Then this chaos will again be turned into order.
It is possible.
From the advent of r Caitanya everything was made possible.
The sakrtana movement has made good progress, but so much
more must be done. Mahprabhu said, In every town and village the
holy name will be heard, but it took a saint like rla Prabhupda
tmatattva Dsa
to actually get that prediction in gear. rla Prabhupda said that

the full prediction will manifest by the sincere endeavor of devotees.
More effort is needed. Someone has to take the responsibility, endure
the difficulties, and make sure the holy name is sung in every town
and village.
Beside, or within, this mission exists another mission, parallel to
spreading the holy name, also left for us to complete. rla Prabhupda
began to spread the holy name in every town and village outside
India, but he also wanted to establish everywhere the culture, which
stands on self-control and purity, along with ideal places where one
could easily practice devotion from that platforma social and
cultural revolution. The latter has yet to be done. Only a part of the
prediction has been made true, and we have to see how to realize it.
We have to seek out the leader who is carrying out that mission and
that potency, and everyone should give a helping hand so that we
will witness its manifestation in fifteen or twenty years.
Before Prabhupda went to America, the thought of a Rathaytr held in a foreign country, or of Americans abstaining even
from onion and garlic, appeared to be a fiction; nobody would have
believed it. Today it is an accepted fact. The main weakness is that
we are not raising ourselves to the mark, and that we shrink in the
face of difficulties. But if everyone pulls together and shares the
work, it is possible. Maybe somebody is very weak and cannot come
to the standard, while someone else is very strong and willing to
help out that frail person. In this way it is possible to realize the full
prediction found in our books.
What are these three guas? The three guas are the
consequence of being averse to Ka. A katriya has become
averse to Ka by the mode of passion, a brhmaa by the mode of
goodness. Because of that, we can say that the brhmaa is a little
closer to becoming favorable to Ka than others. These modes will
call for certain pedagogies. Passion mixed with ignorance likewise
needs its adjusted education, and so on. Each child must use his own
material propensity, which is in fact nothing but his given domain
for forgetting Ka. Please try to see clearly that these propensities
are nothing but different degrees of forgetfulness of Ka; they
are not any great plus points. The process of spiritual education
is similar to clarifying ghee. Slowly the heat brings all the thick
impurity to the top, from where you can easily remove it. If it is not
on the top, there is no way to take it out, and it will influence the
ghee. When you boil, it becomes so clear why a person is kabahirmukha. Therefore you use that bahirmukha state to train him
to again look toward Ka. It will not be the same cultivation for
different natures.
A person in the mode of goodness will differ from one
predominantly in the mode of passion or from one in the mixed
modes of passion and ignorance. The pedagogy must correspond.
Say you have a fellow with sixty percent ignorance, thirty percent
passion, and ten percent goodness; accordingly you must instruct
him. If you would apply the same dosage as for the child mostly in
goodness, you would fail. This reasoning is logical. First you identify
the guas and the vara, then comes the consideration of arama.
If, in the physical rama, you have a brhmaa child and a katriya
child, their trainings are distinct. Somebody may be able to sit and
listen to a section of the scriptures for a very long time, while another
may not be able to do so. You would then prescribe some physical
engagement for the second boy. This service would remind him of
what the first boy is reminded by scriptures: Ka. The purpose is
the same. Someones nature may derive from passionate activity, but
if he has a little more ignorance than others, he may have a different
disposition. This is the approach; according to the vara, you apply
the arama. They might all be trained in the same place, but the art
of training will change due to the guas.
It is very clear that you cannot send everybody into the army. It
does not make any sense to send everybody to some Vietnam, where
most of them will not be of any real use and will misbehave. The
propensity, the essential element, has to be seen as the priority. If
you start thinking that as soon as you have a katriya you will teach
106

tmatattva Dsa: Vara refers to the proportions of the three guas
by which a persons spiritual identity (the soul) is coveredcturvarya may sa gua-karma-vibhgaaso gua and karma
are the consideration. Karma is the combination of the three
guas influencing a person. Predominantly under goodness is your
brhmaa. Predominantly under passion, but with a little goodness
and without much influence from ignorance, is your katriya. Under
more ignorance, supported by goodness and very little passion is
your vaiya. The culcure says First vara and then arama because
when the guas are clearified, you know that you have, for instance,
a person predominantly in the mode of goodness. When that is made
clear, it obviously follows that his rama training as a brahmacr
will be different than the rama training, lets say, of a katriya.
107
tmatattva Dsa
him warfare, it does not make much sense, because the modern
warfare is nowhere close to the training of a true katriya. They go
to a city in the middle of the night and first bomb the hospital and
the residential quarters. In Vedic warfare, first the city is evacuated.
Old people, invalids, children, women, and the sickall those who
cannot fightare first evacuated. The fight is only between those
who can fight. And why does a king go to war in the first place?
Because the other king does not protect his citizens properly. Today,
if you say Here is a katriya and just train him in warfare, it is
not practical. He should still become an administrator and protect
the weak by the strength of his character. A katriya is not some
clich, someone walking around with weapons. That is not very
intelligent.
Sometimes we have this idea of a brhmaa writing on the
blackboard or composing a poem, or of a katriya wielding an
AK47 machinegun, or of a vaiya just sitting, playing the flute for
some grains to grow. Well, it is not exactly like that. Engaging the
propensity is what is important. If a person is resourceful, he is a
leader and can protect others. Our akara Nryaa Rju is a good
example. He is from the Rju community, a katriya by descent, but
is a medical man. Still, his basic propensity is to use his resources
to protect others and guide them. That has remained in him and
has not changed. Whether he would have become an MBBS or an
engineer, a doctor or a biologist, that basic propensity would not
have changed in him. He is utilizing his resources, and that is a goodclass katriya. I am not saying that all the potential katriyas should
proceed like him, but I am underlying that their training is about
protection. Some basic training must have been there for akara
at some point. That would explain why he is good-hearted and
thinks about the protection of his immediate family, of his staff, of
his surrounding. That is the katriya nature, not that he necessarily
has to be standing with bow and arrows. Katriya means offering
protection by strength.
Hence, the arama follows the vara. If the lock is made of
goodness, you need the corresponding key. If a lock has three levers,
the key must also have three; if the lock has four, the key necessarily
needs four. The arama is based on the vara, as the key is based on
the lock.
tmatattva Dsa: Well, it is not that vara is never seen by ones

birth. Take the example of katriyas like Maharaja Parkit. In many
purports of the Bhagavad-gt, rla Prabhupda refers to Arjunas
royal parentage. One side was Ptha, the other Bhrata; that was
Arjunas birth. rla Prabhupda says that he himself was fortunate
to take birth in a family of Vaiavas. And the same goes for rla
Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat hkura. Only when a person from a
particular community and background does not exhibit the qualities
expected, then janman jyate dra saskra bhavati brhmaa,
that question comes. It is not that anyone is anybody by his birth
alone, but the birth is taken into account.
Someone once mentioned to rla Prabhupda about Prince
Charles being a non-vegetarian. Prabhupda jokingly replied, Yes,
he is a non-vegetarian. But he is a prince, and you are nobody!
The propensity and the guas are to be seen. If you look, katriyas
were non-vegetarians, including the incarnations of God. You can
read in the Rmyaa that when Lord Rmacandra was in exile
for fourteen years in the forest, everyday some deer or animal was
hunted. That was His food. Do you think that Arjuna was never
eating meat? Katriyas go huntingthey eat meat. That hunting is
not like bringing animals from the slaughterhouses to keep them in
the fridge. The katriya must hunt, run behind the animal, and that
shows his prowess and power. Until today, once a year in the royal
family of Jaipur, the prince goes with a bare-hand knife to challenge
a tiger. This was so during rla Prabhupdas time, and I hear that
it still continues. He goes and challenges a tiger with a knife, which
shows that he is powerful and has no fear of deathwhat is required
to protect the population. However, this culture cannot be applied
immediately. You cannot give a knife to a child and say, Here you
go, boy!
In this age, no one should kill any animal for food anyway. The
essential principle is that a katriya should be able to protect others
by his resources, by his strength. We have to apply those essential
principles according to time, place, and circumstance.
Bhagratha Dsa: So, you hold that the qualities sometimes come by
birth as well?
tmatattva Dsa: Yes, that is what I said. Only when the qualities
do not match what would be expected from the parentage should we
try to ascertain the vara by other avenues. rla Prabhupda told
the story of Jbla. He approached a guru, who asked him, Who is
your father? He did not know, so he went and requested his mother
to reveal the identity of his father. The sorry mother answered that
108
Bhagratha Dsa: The vara is not by birth but by qualities. In the

beginning, how can we tell then if we have a potential brhmaa, or
katriya, etc? Is there any technique to find out?
109
110
she had been a society girl and thus did not know who the father
was. He went back and candidly told the guru what his mother had
conveyed. Pleased by his lack of duplicity, the guru told him, You
are a brhmaa, because you are speaking the truth. Only when
things are unclear should we check by the qualities. Anyway, in this
age it is not clear for anybodykalau dra-sambhava.
We should just do what we have to do. Let us first introduce
the chanting of the holy names to everybody, like rla Prabhupda
did. As soon as one starts chanting and following the principles,
he will realize how difficult his situation is. As in heating ghee,
the dirt within will come to the surface. Some have brhmaa dirt,
some have katriya dirt, etc. Unless you locate the dirt, how can you
purify it? The egalitarian idea will not work here because we must
factually see whose dirt is how thick. Without this observation, any
solution offered to an individual would be futile. The standard of
self-control and perception of God, introduced by the holy names,
which purify life, will clearly show the persons vara. This is not
discrimination; it is seeing the persons conditioned nature from the
perspective of his absolute identity. It will help the spirit soul in
his service to Ka. This is not a discriminating process, creating
higher and lower positions; it rather removes those strata and frees
everyone from social inequity. That is the meaning of equal vision,
which I brought up earlier:
vidy-vinaya-sampanne brhmae gavi hastini
uni caiva va-pke ca pait sama-darina
(Bg 5.18)
The equal vision of a sage does not put the dog-eater on
the throne! He still perceives that the dog-eater is ignorantand
therefore needs a more appropriate engagement for his progress
and that the king, sitting on the elephant, knows better what to
do. He still sees that in the cows body all the demigods reside. The
desired result of education is that vidy vinaya sampane.
Bhagratha Dsa: I have heard that among the Pavas only Bhma
was a non-vegetarian.
tmatattva Dsa: I dont think so. There was a discussion between
rla Prabhupda and the RSS people, who claimed that the s
and the Pavas were all vegetarians. rla Prabhupda said, No!
That is not true. Why would I say otherwise? To this the RSS people
retorted, But Swamiji if you say like that, everywhere else people will
follow this kind of Vedic culture only. Prabhupda countered that all
over the world he had already made people follow Vedic culture.
tmatattva Dsa
111

tmatattva Dsa: The ramas are wherein education is given for
purifying ones existence. This is different for each vara. The
education continues in the four ramasbrahmacr, ghasta,
vnaprastha, and sannysaso that one can purify and transcend
the material identification relative to his vara. This is what I would
say in connection to varrama and education. The ramas are the
stages of life for being spiritually educated and becoming free from
the material designation of vara.
tmatattva Dsa: Sambandha stands for the relationship with the
Supreme. Abhideya, the process, discussed earlier, is the revival of
that relation. Prayojana is the highest goal to be obtained through
that endeavor. Through the Vedic system of education, given in
a sucession of rama stages, we are trained to revive our original
relationship with Ka. This is abhideya. We can proceed through
the four ramas or go straight from brahmacr to sannyasa if
possible. Our constant aim should be prem pumartho mahn, to
develop love of Godhead. If it is not, our varrama would be known
as sur-varrama, or atheistic varrama, as opposed to daivavarrama, which keeps central the goal of developing prema by
using properly the method of ramas. Education by ramas is the
abhideya by which we seek to uncover our original relationship, now
deficiently exibited through the tainted glass of the three modes as
brhmaa, katriya, vaiya, or dra, and rise above this designation
of vara to attain svarpa, our original identity. When we become
free by abhideya from the bodily designations, we grasp and realize
the complete sambandha and prayojana. Our objective of attaining
love of God is then in clear sight.
tmatattva Dsa: Well, for any child, in the beginning some
compulsion is needed to get him to learn. The fact that everybody is
taught in a similar manner can be called the demerit of that system.
Everybodys propensity and nature is different, so they should be
tmatattva Dsa
trained in different ways accordingly. That kind of classification is

missing in modern education, where the students spend ten years in
high school, two years in pre-college, and another four to seven years
after that. Their whole concocted theory of spending twelve years in
preparation for spending another four or five at the university, and
so on, is meaninglessalmost eighteen years are gone!
The training is job-oriented. The students aim is to get a job,
but still there is no guarantee he will get one. A particular study,
like engineering or medicine, is not accepted because one has a
calling for it, but simply because it is available in the institution
and promises a chance for getting a certain standard of life. This is
another demerit.
One merit is that he is trained to be disciplined in connection to
his work; he goes to school every morning, comes back at a particular
time, gets his homework done, prepares for exams, etc. This is some
kind of training, and there is a little merit in the exercise. But the
subject studied does not purify his existence, neither is it according
to his nature and likings, nor does most of what he learns serve the
purpose of economic maintenancewhich is the only aim of that
institution.
produce a child who is happily engaged. It will strengthen his sense

of identity, his individual talents, and will remove unconducive ideas
and feelings. But everybody is fed the same plate. To force a similar
content upon everyone is a big flaw of modern educationall the
same until the end of high school. Then there is some classification,
but according to what is available at the time, not to propensity.
Often people fill applications for various colleges and just try to see
where they can squeeze in somehow. It is not that they appreciate the
subject they will study.
112
Bhagratha Dsa: You answered that any child would need some
sort of compelling to get involved with education. Does it apply to
children of dra nature as well?
tmatattva Dsa: For anybodyor any childto submit to a system,
some amount of compelling is needed in the beginning. Without it,
the child would not take to any system of development. But it should
come to something that the child actually likes. The first thing is to
get him into a practicewithin a certain time frame he is made to
take part in certain regulated activitiesbut it all must bring him
to a subject matter that he appreciates. Whatever is learned happily,
with an appreciation, will be retained. Not everybody needs to study
sixty pages of mathematics. You can see that some are not interested
and just want to pass the imposed exam. The result is that whatever
is studied in one year is not remembered in the next. Neither is
there time to remember anything, because of the constant pressure
to study new things.
In addition, the student is thrown all over the place and has
to touch upon every subject. He does not simply study in relation
to the subject he appreciates and for which he has propensities. A
tailored educationfocused, based on nature and attractionwill
113

tmatattva Dsa: Traditional education, in its original form, was
based on strict adherence to scriptures and is therefore difficult to
relate to at present. Mostly, as you have touched upon in the second
part of your question, traditional education has been conceived
as simply peripheral to the mainstream of life, only to train priests
in ritualistic performances. That is how it has generally been
understood for some time now. However, this is not what traditional
Vedic education connotes. Some percentage of the brhmaas may
become priests, but not all. There are different kinds of traditional
education even for the brhmaas. They can be teachers or cooks,
practice medicine, practice arts like music, etc. Then you have the
other varas too. To prepare for priesthood is not by far the totality
of traditional education.
The non-formal family training is, we can say, to some extent
still in shape, especially in certain communities of tradesmen or
craftsmen. Even though they may send their children to get some
formal education, they still impart their family line of work to them.
A guy may study something in college, but if his father is a jeweler,
he will also learn that art from him. He will be a jeweler and use
his modern education to improve the family business, its logistics
and marketing, etc. In that way, many are trained and remain in the
family line. Mostly among craftsmen, tradesmen, and the business
community do we see this trend. They use modern education to that
effect. But, of course, the goal of life is forgotten.
In Vedic traditional education, the student is taught
simultaneously about his real identity. He learns to see God in the
activities of his livelihood. Unfortunately, this type of pedagogy has
become obsolete and forgotten. Traditional education is not only
restricted to priesthood, but is vast and variegated.
114
14. What would you say is the main pitfall in modern education?
tmatattva Dsa: Well, I do not know much about modern education,
because I am not so educated per se. But I can say that the person is
missing! Who is he? He does not know. He knows exactly how many
miles from the earth to the sun, according to some bogus information
he accepts as perfect, but he does not know his true self. I would say
as Jesus said: What profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world
but loses his soul? Who is he? Where does he come from? Why is he
here? Where is he going? He does not have a clue. This is certainly
the main pitfall of modern education, and will be the source of its
downfall as well. Real education is to know oneselfthe science of
the self and the science of God. Without this axiom, no so-called
science is acceptable as a vidy, according to the standards of the
Upaniads. Earlier, I spoke about the thirty-two vidys. All these
vidys deal with the permanent and the temporary, the gross and the
subtle, the visible and the invisible, what is perceived by the senses
and how these perceptions are governed by higher authorities. This
scope is completely missing in modern education, and the student
misses out greatly.
tmatattva Dsa: I do not think that the foundation of varrama
and of education can be seen as different. One is educated within
varas and ramas for attaining his original constitutional position.
These two are inseparable. The pillars of education will not differ
from those of varrama. If it were so, education would take a person
away from the goal. Or you could call that kind of education survarrama, wherein the focus is the temporary body, in this life or
the next. The pillars of education are the same as for varrama;
they are not two different issues.
student?
tmatattva Dsa: The qualified teacher has to know the subject
matter, should show compassion, and should act in a non-competitive
spiritsaha nv avatu saha nau bhunaktu saha vrya karavvahai:
Let us both be enlightened without competing with each other.
This prayer is chanted in the beginning of classes. The teacher is noncompetitive, compassionate, and takes good care of the students. He
is always satisfied and happy when the students learn. The teacher
tmatattva Dsa
115
does not teach because he is paid. Otherwise, there is no question of

compassion, care, or something along those lines. If a materialistic
teacher is not paid, he will not teach. Then the student will not be
submissive, tad viddhi praiptenaparipranena sevay. The student
pays fees at the counter, so he will demand to be taught; he will not
submit. There will be no tad viddhi praiptena.
A genuine teacher becomes delighted if the student surpasses
him. That kind of qualification is wanted. The student, from his
side, should be submissive and respectful. He should understand that
this person is taking care of me and is uncovering my real identity.
He loves the guru for teaching him self-realization. rla Prabhupda
explained that where a qualified speaker and a qualified listener
meet, like ukadeva Gosvm meeting Parkit Mahrja, there
will always be a transmission of knowledge. ukadeva Gosvm has
realized what is permanent and what is temporary. He is free from
everythingtranscendental. Parkit Maharaja is facing a great
challenge and seeks something permanent, as his life is soon coming
to an end. He thirsts to know the Supreme, and ukadeva knows the
answer. They are both perfect examples of qualification.
tmatattva Dsa: The basic curriculum should all be from traditional
sources. Then we can have supplements to support the present
situation. Earlier, we copied the books by using palm leaves, and
then came the iron pen. Now we use printing press, or computers, or
this recorder. However, except for the consideration of knowledgedelivery, the basic curriculum should be based on traditional
resources only. You can use the support of modern technique for the
practical transmission of traditional knowledge, to make it work, but
the resources themselves should be solely traditional.
With traditional references, the understanding of the nature
of matter, of spirit, and of the controller of both is pervasive. In
modern courses, that is missing. But we can always use technology
as a support. We should gather from Vedic sources in designing
curricula intended for brhmaas, katriyas, vaiyas, and dras.
This will ensure a consistent understanding, in all topics, of the
presence of the spirit soul and of the workings of the three modes
of material nature. Pollution is caused by the modes of nature;
thus, a correlated purification is gained by scientifically dividing
tmatattva Dsa
the society accordingly. We cannot follow the model of the socalled classless society, because there is no information about the
guas. But we can use different methodologies to support our effort.
Previously Vaiavas would travel by foot; now we fly from one city
to another.
tmatattva Dsa: Exactly! The consciousness of the person, his

class, his saintliness, gets transferred. That is not the same when
it comes down to the next level, like that of ink and paper. This is
the principle. But if you need many copies shortly, the technology
is there for you to use. We should utilize technology, not become
enslaved by it. We should not become dependent.
116
Bhagratha Dsa: Should we encourage people to use, and continue

making, computers and such technology?
tmatattva Dsa: If it is available it can be usedthat is what rla
Prabhupda didbut we do not want to separately encourage and
value technology as something wonderful on its own. Someone in
rdhm Mypur asked rla Prabhupda, Should I go and study
medicine, so that I can serve the devotees who fall sick? rla
Prabhupda replied, When you go to Calcutta, simply preach to
a doctor and bring him here. He will serve the devotees. We can
see now, at every festival a few doctors come from Calcutta. Some
may take a little fee, whatever. Instead of getting the devotees so
implicated and entangled, it is far better to bring a professional man
to devotion. Why spend four or five years to study and practice? There
are so many doctors in Calcutta with the basic medical qualification,
so why not preach to them? Modernity can be used, but we should
not waste years on it. Similarly, if you get a computer, you may think
of getting a computer education. But it will not be necessary, at least
in my opinion. Otherwise, you get carried away.
Even if many modern techniques are available for printing books
nowadays, a book written on palm leaves some thousands of years
ago is considered more valuable. It is called antique and is expensive.
Actually, even those writings appeared quite late in history. In previous
ages humans had great memory and concentration; by hearing a text
once they would remember it for life. Practically speaking, the use
of written compilations began at the junction of Dvpara-yuga and
Kali-yuga. Before that, we find the ruta-dhara, would could hear and
repeat. The potency of a book written on palm leaves is not the same
as those produced by some later techniques, like ink and paper or
even machine printer. The books written on palm leaves are called
granthas. We call Srimad Bhgavatam or Bhagavad-gt the king of
books, grantha-rja. When you take out ten prints in two seconds it
seems to be the same, but their potency is not the same. The power
that it carries is not the same.
Bhagratha Dsa: Can we say that the power of the writer enters into
the book that they write?
117

tmatattva Dsa: To be educated about the soul and our true
identity is everyones right. But because the modes influence the
person, it becomes a privilege. It is every citizens right to become
the president of America, but not every citizen has the privilege to
be the president of America. The type of involvement with matter,
pious or impious, opens or closes the door of rights and gives rise to
privileges. One can call the dvijas the privileged classes; however,
the privilege does not arise from indiscriminative division. It is
based on the ability and desire of the individual to relate to spiritual
education. The right, due to the influence of the modes of material
nature, turns into privilege.
If you look at a piece of furniture, it has been cut, designed,
and made for a specific purpose. A chair and a table work differently
and bring different results. If this is true for a lifeless structure, how
much so will it be for a conscious soul influenced by the modes? The
education of a person as a soul, the access to the message that he is
spirit, is a given eternal right. How much and in what way the person
can relate to this message depends on the influence of the modes of
nature at that time. Naturally, at first look it will appear as if one
class has better privileges than the other, but in truth it is like the
variation in utility of different furniture designs. One design is more
useful for sitting, the other for writing, etc. Therefore, if I correctly
understood in your question what you meant by privilege, privilege
is a direct effect of the design caused by the guas influencing a
conditioned soul.
Bhagratha Dsa: What was meant is whether education is only for
brhmaas and other higher classes, or for everybody. Nowadays
they send everyone to the school.
tmatattva Dsa: This is what we discussed, how much a person is
able to relate to edification under the influence of the modes. But the
right for that training is never deprived. The dras are not deprived
of it. If a brhmaa wants to perform a ritual, to give a good example,
tmatattva Dsa
he needs bricks for making the homa-kua. A very strong laboring

person brings the bricks. He needs some gold. The king collects the
gold and provides him. And a vaiya brings the grains to be offered
in the fire. By assisting the three upper classes in performing their
duties, the dras are directly engaged in these activities. But it is not
that these three are the rulers and the other one is cut out from the
good side of life. It is just that his potential is different. He is more
physical, so he is given this aspect of the work. The modes influence
him in this way. He does not venture in things related with the Vedas
directly.
That he does not undergo Vedic study does not mean that he
is performing activities prohibited in the Vedas or that are not an
intrinsic part of Vedic civilization. He assists the other three who
are always doing things according to the Vedas. He is engaged in the
gross, or external, activities of the same functions. He gets the same
result as everyone, not less. As he is cleansed from the lower modes,
he becomes a vaiya, then a katriya, and finally a brhmaa. And
it is not that he has to wait for another birth to do thatjanman
jyate dra saskrd bhaved dvija.11 When he is purified of the
modes, he acts accordingly. A part of the Upaniads has been spoken
by women and dra teachers. Jbla was a tribal man who did not
know who his father was, and Grg was a woman. Of course these
are exceptions, but they nevertheless show that the right is ultimately
more important than the privilege. The dra is neither going to
engage in activities directly connected to the Vedas nor in activities
completely disconnected from the Vedas. He assists the other three
varas in their responsibilities.
But nowadays the whole social context is confused. Some
workers think that because they are computer craftsmen, i.e.,
computer engineers, they are of the intelligent class, brhmaas. But
to the contrary, they are dras, mechanics using some mechanism to
do things. Computers are designed and manufactured by intelligent
people to sell to those who are not so intelligent. They make it easy:
you click here, double-click there, or drag an icon, and it will work.
The designers are quite intelligent. Down at the level of utilization,
operators do not have so much intelligence. Here the privilege is
in relation to a kind of activities that has nothing to do with the
scriptures. It is just for material existence, for the maintenance of
the external cover, thats all.
Ultimately, we cannot say that in the system of the four varas

the dra is disconnected with the Vedas. He does not take up Vedic
studies himself, but everything he does is serving the purposes of the
Vedas, whether in assisting the vaiya to protect cows and cultivate
land, or the katriya to protect citizens, or the brhmaa to learn,
teach, and perform sacrifices.
118
11. This is a verse from the Manu-sahit, regularly quoted by rla Bhakti Siddhnta
Sarasvati hkura and rla Prabhupda, against the argument of cast by birth: One is a
dra by birth, but becomes a twice-bornbrhmaa, katriya, or vaiyaby the saskras.
119
Bhagratha Dsa: Are those who fight as simple soldiers dras?

tmatattva Dsa: Yes, and the charioteers, who drive and care
for horses, also are. Lord Ka acted as a dra in the Battle of
Kuruketra. He used to wash Arjunas horses, tie them up to the
chariot, and make sure that they got water on the battlefield. These
are activities of a dra, but are done for a katriya who protects law
and order. In this way the dra is purified. The other three classes
seem privileged for one who does not understand what the actual
activities of this division are based on. The Vedas want 365 bricks to
make the Garua design of a homa-kua. The dras bring those 365
bricks. Those making the bricks are also dras; brhmaas do not
make bricks. If the dras do not help, how will the brhmaa perform
the homa? If the vaiyas do not bring the milk and ghee, what will the
brhmaa pour? And when the vaiyas produce milk products, they
involve many laborers. And, as you have said, if one has to go to war,
someone is making the sword and the shield. Katriyas are not going
to sit down and do that. Similarly, to get a coconut from a tree, the
brhmaa will not chant a mantra to make the dab fall! He will use a
knife made by the labor class.
If this vision is very clear, we can save ourselves. In the book
Make Vndvana Villages,12 Tejiyas Prabhus article speaks about
this. Earlier, the barber would come and shave the arm pits, cut the
nails, and get a gift in return. The system was clear: they would wait
for the barber and not shave themselves. Fools may view from their
own perspective, These are bad folks! They treat the barber like a
barber! Such ideas make no sense. The brhmaa will not cut his
nails and shave himself up. In fact, the first ritual in the marriage
ceremony of a brhmaa is to bring the barber to cut the nails, shave,
and prepare the bridegroom for the coming saskra. The barber
is given a cow at that moment. He accepts the cow and goes; this
is how the wedding would begin. If the barber would not come, the
family could not proceed to the next ritual, and there would be no
marriage. When one pities the barber, he surely is not appreciating
12. Another publication of the VBT, by Bhakti Rghava Swami, see page 177.
tmatattva Dsa
the beauty of the complete system. The barber is as important as

anybody else, and at the designated time the brhmaa class is dutybound to formally show its affectionate appreciation.
Until today in Jaganntha Pur, there is a given family who has
the honor of making the rope for tying Jaganntha on the chariot.
Nobody else will do. There are designated families for each work;
this one is expert in making the rope. They know the tithi on which
to start the work. It is all based on scriptural injunctions. No one
else is allowed to do that. What to speak of the ll when Jaganntha
is sick and retires for a certain period after bathing. He gives more
time to Lakm during that time, because She complains that He is
always busy with His visitors and never gives her time. So He goes
and takes bath with so many pots of water, and then poses as sick.
If He is sick and goes on eating, people may question. Therefore the
temple kitchen is closed during that time. Then the abara tribe
takes charge of the worship.
Bhagratha Dsa: Do they still get premonitory dreams when choosing

the tree to use for the mrti of Lord Jaganntha?
tmatattva Dsa: Yes, even last year it happened. Every twelve
years the priests will go past the Magala temple, a Durg temple
about seventy-eight kilometers from Puri, and will receive guidance
to find each tree. Before, we could only hear those stories; just a
few fortunate souls could witness the events. Now, because of
technology, everything is caught on video and we can also see. Many
injunctions will be followed to select those trees. A tree will not be
cut for Balarmas body if a bird nests in its branches. As soon as
they worship that tree, a huge cobra comes down and stands erect
with its hood open until the pj is over. This happens every twelve
years. Subhadrs tree is always found in between rivers. And for
Jagannthas, they will find a structure with the sign of Sudarana on
it. That, taken together with the log of wood, is made into Sudarana.
In some few places, the remnants of the old division of society
survive and the duties are followed. Those who do not understand
this scientific division are critical and look down upon it; so many
books have been written to find faults and denounce activities done
according to caste. In proper varrama, no dra performs activities
not based on Vedic injunctions. We should understand very clearly
that dras are part of the four categories of Vedic civilization, which
all have very important roles to play.
Interestingly, God Himself, in the Kuruketra war, was driving
a chariot and cleaning horses stool. We typically see the picture of
Ka with a whip in hand, driving the chariot, but the charioteer is
also responsible to clean the stable. Do you think Arjuna, the katriya,
did that? No! Parthasarathi did. It is not that He is not important
He is the Supreme Lordor that He was playing an unimportant
role. He was playing the part of a good dra lovingly taking complete
care of his katriyas horses. In the Mahbhrata, alya, the maternal
uncle of the Pavas, was requested by Duryodhana to serve as
the charioteer of Kara. As a katriya, alya felt insulted by that
demand. Only when Duryodhana diplomatically pleaded that he
needed someone equal to Ka, Arjunas charioteer, did he finally
agreed.
120
The abaras are untouchables who pulled Jagannthas dru

when it came floating in the ocean. To pull this log of wood from the
ocean waves, strong men were needed. Indradyumna Mahrja was
helped by the abaras. They were given the benediction of service
to Lord Jaganntha. They make certain juices known only to their
community; the recipes are secret. They do not follow brahmanical
rituals for serving Lord Jaganntha. They bring their humble offerings
and just put them down, without chanting any mantra. They just
tell, Kliy! Take this now. You will be cured. Lord Jaganntha
accepts this service. Nobody except the abara ps are allowed
to serve the special diet. These examples show that the division of
society according to aptitude is not discrimination; it rather values
everybody according to their position.
Bhagratha Dsa: But do they get anything in return?
tmatattva Dsa: Yes. The family that makes the rope for the Deities
once a year is maintained throughout the year. A month before
Ratha-ytr they have to start preparing, because they make a very
organic product. They have to go to the forest, find a special bark,
and harvest it on a certain tithi. It is a whole science. They do not
buy some plastic rope from the market to tie Jaganntha in Pur. Of
course, we are preachers, so in a contemporary ISKCON Ratha-ytr
anywhere around the world, in a city like New York or Sydney, we
might just go to the hardware shop, bring the best rope available, and
tie the Lord with it. It is a fact.
121

tmatattva Dsa: One cannot estimate education by literacy. What
are they reading and writing about? It is the subject matter that
tmatattva Dsa
is important. Just because you are literate does not mean you are
educated. Knowledge is composed of par vidy and apar vidy. The
former is pure spiritual knowledge, and the latter explains material
energy in reference to the soul. Without this reference, any system
of material knowledge is neither known as vidy nor as education. In
that case, the degree of education would be zero. Apar vidy studies
the phenomena of this world with the notion that the spiritual is
part of the equation. In Vedic culture even that is considered the
inferior part of someones education. Par vidy pushes one way
beyond that. A study that is restricted to material energy alone is not
considered a vidy; spiritual references are the core of any vidy. The
soul is conscious and has awareness of its interaction with matter.
Therefore, one studies matter along with the jvajar and jva
and this constitutes material education, the secondary education.
Now, to study the spirit in reference to the controller, to study acit
and cit in reference to vara, is the primary and most important part
of educationpar vidy. In the tenth chapter of Bhagavad-gt,
Ka enumerates what is supreme and says that among the vidys
He is the adhytma-vidy, the highest. In the purport, Prabhupda
gives the fourteen division of Vedic knowledge:
the Puras, historical records. The four Vedas, the six Vedgas,
Vednta-stra, nyya, dharma-stras, and the Purastogether
these make the fourteen divisions of Vedic knowledge. Some of this
knowledge, the material arts and sciences that are connected to the
transcendence, is known as apar vidy; the remaining, the purely
spiritual exposition, is the par vidy, also known as adhytma-vidy.
So among these fourteen divisions, Ka states that He is adhytmavidy, directly referring to Vednta-stra, because that is the study
of matter, spirit, and their source. Vednta-stra is about cause and
effect. There is another verse in the Bhagavad-gt:
122
For advanced education there are various kinds of books of

knowledge, such as the four Vedas, their six supplements, the
Vednta-stra, books of logic, books of religiosity, and the Purnas.
So altogether, there are fourteen divisions of books of education.
Of these, the book which presents adhytma-vidy, spiritual
knowledgein particular, the Vednta-strarepresents Ka.
(Bg 10.32, purport)
The Vedgas are the six limbs of the Vedas. To study the Vedas,
one has to study these agas: (1) ika, pronounciation; (2) vykaraa,
grammar; (3) nirukti, vocabulary and conclusive meaning; (4)
chandas, meter; (5) jyotia, time-science (not just common astrology.
The science of jyotia is our calendar: the tithis, the nakatras, the
pakas, also the branches of astronomy like timing and distance of
the planets, and our cosmology, as seen in the Fifth Canto); and (6)
kalpa, the proper performance of rituals and activities. Smti-stras,
all based on ruti, expound each of these agas, like ika-smti,
vykaraa-smti, etc; these are the Vedgas. Then you have Vedntastra, the great conclusion about spirit, matter, and the controller of
both. Following is nyya, logic. Besides the nyya-stras of Gautama
Muni, there are many books on logic, also known as nyya. Then come
the books on religious duties, known as dharma-stras, followed by
123
ibhir bahudh gta chandobhir vividhai pthak

brahma-stra-padai caiva hetumadbhir vinicitai
That knowledge of the field of activities and of the knower of
activities is described by various sages in various Vedic writings. It is
especially presented in Vednta-stra with all reasoning as to cause
and effect. (Bg 13.5)
The first part refers to the six systems of Vedic philosophy.
The is describe the field and its knower in various Vedic writings:
ibhir bahudh gta chandobhir vividhai pthak Chandobhir
refers to the Vedic texts because they are in meter. Then the verse
continues: brahma-stra-padai caiva, meaning that this knowledge
is most expertly presented in the verses of the Brahma-stra
hetumadbhir vinicitaiin reference to the cause and effect. The
knowledge of the cause, the source of everything, and matter and
spirit, is known as par vidy. The other aspect, the knowledge of
matter in relation to spirit, is known as apar vidy. Plain literacy,
pointed by your question, is below apar vidy; it is not even part of
vidy. It is called avidy, or in Prabhupdas words, ignorance. It is
not in any way progressive.
Literacy cannot be the scale for weighing education. One may
not know how to read and write, but that does not bar him from
approaching par vidy. A pious illiterate man may perceive the
evil of birth, death, old age, and diseasejanma-mtyu-jar-vydhidukha-donudaranam. Literacy in itself is not a qualification
of any kind. Reading is valuable only when it facilitates the study
of par vidy or apar vidy; otherwise it has no value, vidy. In
another verse, Ka says that besides this par vidy and apar
vidy, everything else is ignorance. There is also adhytma-jnanityatva, to be situated in adhytma-jna, and tattva-jnrtha-
tmatattva Dsa
daranam, to be able to see matter and spirit in different tattvas, such

as jaa-tattva, jva-tattva, etc. This is all coming from Bhagavad-gt,
chapter 13, verse 812:
Bhagratha Dsa: What are the social position of the illiterates and
their field of activity in society?
124
Humility; pridelessness; nonviolence; tolerance; simplicity;

approaching a bona fide spiritual master; cleanliness; steadiness;
self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification;
absence of false ego; the perception of the evil of birth, death, old
age and disease; detachment; freedom from entanglement with
children, wife, home and the rest; even-mindedness amid pleasant
and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me;
aspiring to live in a solitary place; detachment from the general
mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization; and
philosophical search for the Absolute Truthall these I declare to be
knowledge, and besides this whatever there may be is ignorance.
This enumeration describes what knowledge is. Ka insists
that everything else is ignorance. Literacy has some value if it is at
least connected to apar vidy.
Bhagratha Dsa: What about the illiterate person? If one has to
study ruti and all these agas, how will he do it?
tmatattva Dsa: He can start with syllables and begin ika. How
does anyone become literate? Anyone can begin his education at any
age. Perhaps one will not learn as easily as one who starts at the age
of five, but study is not confined to childhood. In any case, literacy
is not the main point and does not determine the level of education.
There are many PhDs who do not discern the temporary from the
eternal.
In traditional education, apar vidy studies matter in relation
to spirit. History shows that even the precursors of Western education
studied both matter and spiritPlato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc. All of
these early thinkers were philosophers. In time, that trend changed
and they wanted to study matter alone. They no longer wanted to
study matter in reference to spirit, so they all became mathematicians
instead of philosophers. From that point on, they avoided the study of
consciousness, focused on dead matter, developed many materialistic
systems of education devoid of spiritual background, and gave
momentum to indiscriminate material advancement. Even though
Western educators were originally philosophers, their successors
were mundane mathematicians. In turn, that view of mathematics
created the atheistic science that is predominantly studied in almost
all institutions today.
125
tmatattva Dsa: Once they learn about matter and spirit, either
by reading, writing, hearing, or associating, they are no longer
considered illiterate. Plain mundane education is avidy and cannot
create brhmaas, katriyas, vaiyas, or even dras. In fact, it will
degrade them to much less than dras.
Bhagratha Dsa: What will be the occupations of the illiterate
dras? Must they learn to read and write?
tmatattva Dsa: Generally they should follow and support the other
three, and for that they do not need literacy. But it is not that all
members of the dra community are illiterate. For example, a ilpi is
a literate dra. He knows the ilpa-stra; he studies it. Those who
make bows and arrows study a whole lot of measurements, angles,
and so on. Not all dras know how to read and write because they
study only what they need.
The barber does not have to know the science of space and
measurements, but he knows other things. Apart from cutting hairs,
he knows all the tlas. Previously, the king had to be given a massage
by rhythmic slapping on different points. The barber knew the
techniques and correlated them with the tlas (rhythms) that come
in music. He may not have known the science of space but he knew
the science of timing. If a king came back from a battle or a grave
political meeting, he found relief in the treatment of his barber, and
relaxed to get ready for his next engagement.
Those who took care of the body of the king were considered
very important. There was a set of ministersall brhmaaswho
ate before the king did to check whether his food had been poisoned.
They were ready to sacrifice their life to save the king. Of course,
they were experts in anti-poisons and knew just what to do in a bad
scenario. My paternal grandfather was doing that service to the King
of Palaghat. He was like the right hand of the king; if he did not
turn up, the king also would not come. They were strong guys. They
could hear eight different sounds at the same time. They knew from
which side the arrows were shot or the enemy was attacking. Only
those who had these kinds of qualifications were appointed for those
important posts. They were like your modern-day Bruce Lee. He was
a brhmaa. He wielded a big sword almost, seven feet longa big
figure. The belt he wore around his waist could make four rounds on
my fathers waist! He was such a huge fellow. And anyway, these were
tmatattva Dsa
nothing but the remnants of the real deal. We are not talking five
thousand years ago, but just two generations before my time.
If we think it over, this division of society is a scientific
arrangement. This morning, His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Mahrja
was mentioning how it was possible to address the huge audience
of the assembly of the sages at Naimiraya. My maternal uncles
son was an Indian classical singer. When he would go to perform in
places like Chennai, he always had the microphone and speakers
switched off and would sing to an audience of two thousand, straight
from his bare throat. He was able to do that. It was a hall, not an open
area, but he was powerful enough to make the last row hear even the
subtleties of his performance. These are just glimpses and leftovers of
a glorious past. And my cousin was not literate. He learned the songs
by ear; that is a department of knowledge one learns by hearing.
In fact, with Vedic mantras, if in the beginning you look at
the script, you will not be able to chant them as well. First you must
hear, then you must learn to render the sound clearly, and only then
should you see the letters. The references come later. Only when you
come to nirukti are you introduced to the letters. Seeing the script
at first limits you. The first training is hearing and chanting; later
on you get introduced to reading. We see that even here literacy is
not a prime qualification either. The substance studied is far more
important.
study we get jna, and by reflection and application vijna. For a

certain standard of traditional education to be reached in society, we
must accept the prescriptions and prohibitions of stra. Certainly
one cannot give up the basic standards mentioned in that system.
We cannot compromise on essential principles.
We should not delude ourselves and believe that mundane
education (avidy), simply because it is supplemented with a short
prayer to Ka at the beginning and end of the day, transforms into
spiritual education. At midday we get them to chant arra avidyjl and honor prasda, then straight back to avidyit is of no use.
We cannot compromise like that. And on the other hand, we should
keep a balance and not suddenly or prematurely introduce the forest
standard of life until we come to that level. Previously, even just five
hundred years ago, forest-dwelling was more comfortable than our
city life. If we try to push that standard now, without creating the
facilities and giving the training needed for living in the forest, we
will end up as fanatics.
That is why we have to refine our understanding of rla
Prabhupdas books, research stra, extract the information, and
present working models. If a method works in one place, it should
logically work in other places, with some adjustments to climate,
cultural background, etc. The first step is to study, the second is to
practice, and the third is to create some small models. After that, we
just copy success.
126
tmatattva Dsa: The first step is to study deeply rla Prabhupdas
books, especially his purports. Just like the Six Gosvms, who
researched the ocean of Vedic literature to extract all the devotional
teachings, we have to make a similar research. We first have to
scrutinize rla Prabhupdas books, and then extend our research
to other relevant scriptures. We must especially read any further
references given by rla Prabhupdafor instance, certain books
on logic and dharma-stras that he points out in the tenth chapter
of the Bhagavad-gtthat is the second step.
Then we must endeavor to make model gurukulas and
communities where this knowledge can be practiced. When
knowledge is applied, difficulties and hindrances are faced. We must
realize, under our given circumstances, the appropriate standard of
duties and learn what to avoid to progress toward an ideal society. By
127
O nti, nti, nti!

Bhagratha Dsa: Thank you very much for your enlightening
thoughts.
tmatattva Dsa: Haribol!
129
128
Chapter 5
Interview of rman Gopparadhana Dsa
Presently many people are interested in receiving degrees from big
universities, but education without God consciousness is simply an
expansion of mys influence. Because knowledge is taken away by
illusion, the universities are simply presenting impediments on the
path of God consciousness. The living entity is already illusioned
when he comes into the material world, and so-called advanced
education simply increases his illusion. Trying to become happy in
this temporary, material life, the living entity has forgotten that he
is the eternal servant of Ka. Even if one becomes happy in this
temporary life, his happiness is an illusion because no one is allowed
to stay and enjoy his happiness. These points have to be understood
in the association of devotees. A devotee knows everything because
he has seen the Supreme Absolute Truth, Ka.
(The Teaching of Lord Kapila, verses 25-26)
Prabhupda: This is culture to see every woman as mother. This
is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is
rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture,
what is the meaning of education?
Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things.
Prabhupda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that
you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not
education.
(Morning Walk Bombay, December 1975)

rmad-Bhgavata Vidypham, r Govardhana, India, May 2007
1. What is your understanding of education or, according to you,
Gopparadhana Dsa: The purpose of education is to provide
training in order to guide a person to realize his complete potential
and attain his true goal. In bad handsthe hands of government
or of people with material motiveseducation becomes distorted.
That kind of education invariably creates persons with ulterior
motives. The purpose of true education is to bring the spirituality
within a person to the forefront. Education does not mean to impart
something; it rather means to draw out, i.e., to bring out a persons
spiritual realization from within. That is true education.
Gopparadhana Dsa: Our business is to educate the world, the
general society, about spiritual lifeand not just about generic
spiritual life, but about the highest form of spirituality. We cannot
be content with teaching something that is inferior, a compromised
conception of spiritual life, something half material and half
spiritual. We have to teach everybody how and why to be a servant
of Ka. This is the education we must give.
If anything else is to be taught preliminarily, that is acceptable
as long as the ultimate goal is to awaken the students Ka
consciousness. rla Jva Gosvm, in the Sandarbhas, discusses
many philosophical points. He expounds about the concept of God,
the concept of Supersoul, the many energies of the Supersoul, and
many such complex philosophical topics. But his ultimate purpose is
to identify the Absolute Truth, our relationship with Him, and the
process of surrender. In the later Sandarbhasthe Bhakti-sandarbha
and the Prti-sandarbhahe wrote about the process of perfection,
Gopparadhana Dsa
pure devotional service. That is the objective of education, without

which, to study even the Supreme Soul is pointless. If an education
does not lead to the awakening of love of God, it is useless. The only
relevant education is educating the fallen souls to become devotees
of Ka.
In ISKCON, this entails educating devotees to become perfect.
We have to perfect whatever is inferior; whatever is inadequate in
devotion must be corrected. Just as in an aga-yoga school, if you
fall very sick they will teach you the relevant yoga techniques for
curing yourself. But the other students study yoga to gain spiritual
perfection, not to cure illnesses. So for the general populace, the
need is to be cured from materialism, and for devotees the need is to
be cured from whatever traces of materialism is still left in them and
learn how to become pure devotees.
Bhagratha Dsa: But what about the general people who want to get
a job and enter into family life?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Well, they think they need that kind of an
education for equipping them to go out, get material things, and
succeed; but it is not needed. And it is not our business to provide
material education. There are thousands of material schools teaching
all material topics. We do not need to impart that education. For
example, what is the need for us to get involved in a business like the
making of liquor? We do not need it. ISKCON does not need to be
involved in such business as making liquor and setting up material
universities.
Gopparadhana Dsa: In education, we see the same weakness that

we see in implementing guru-disciple relationship or family life. In
all three there is a similar problem. The individual who leadsi.e.,
the guru, the husband, or the teachershould be as close to the
ideal as possible. Because we often fall short of this standard, we face
so many difficulties. So we must create ideal people. ISKCON has to
train up ideal devotees. They may not be paramahasas, but at least
they should be vigilantly Ka conscious. They will then become
good gurus, good husbands, and good teachers. Our basic problem
is the quality of leadership. This is not to criticize anyone, but it is a
shortcoming of ISKCON that we do not train up devotees to be more
exemplary. Of course, we are still a young society, and things can be
learned with time. A mission of this magnitude takes time to perfect.
It is difficult to reach perfection in the material world. But we need
perfect people.
130

Gopparadhana Dsa: The systems intention is itself wrong.
The intention of teaching students how to become a materialist is
condemnable and hellish. To make it worse, they do not even train
students to be civilized materialists. What they actually learn in
these schools is even more degrading. They become like cats and
dogs, learning how to be sinful in so many ways. The universities,
high schools, and such educational institutions are turning human
beings into animalsin fact, much worse: animals do not come to
school with guns to shoot their teachers! But nowadays there are
instances of students doing just that.
4. What weaknesses plagues ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its
131
Bhagratha Dsa: So you are saying it will take some time?

Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes, but it will not just happen automatically.
It will not happen simply by waiting, merely by the passing of time
alone. It will take a lot of effort, a lot of attention, a lot of thinking,
and a lot of hard work. How do you perfect people? It is by far the
most difficult thing to do. rla Prabhupda has given us all the
instructions necessary to succeed, and still it remains hard. Even
following the simplest of instructions is an arduous task. In Kali-yuga,
when people are very imperfect, it is not at all easy to make them
spotless. But if we move more and more in that direction, eventually
we will have perfected devotees, and spiritual education will become
effective and dynamic.
Our main shortcoming is in making ideal devotees who can
impart perfect education to others. Due to past unfortunate and
unfavorable incidents, almost everyone is now hesitant to tread
the path of educating children in ISKCON. But this hurdle must be
crossed, and the process must go on.
Gopparadhana Dsa: We have to become more Ka conscious.
We must chant Hare Ka very sincerely, study rmad-Bhgavatam,
and serve our cryas with full dedication and selfless surrender.
Then we will become increasingly fit. There is no material change
required to rectify this situation. The only needed adjustment is to
become Ka conscious.
132

Gopparadhana Dsa: Although the basic foundation of
varrama is service to the Supreme Lord, it is not evident.
Varrama is like Ka subconsciousness. There is more thought
of worshiping demigods, performing yaja, or just fulfilling your
duty, but without much thinking about doing it as loving service to
the Lord. You may not have direct thoughts of the Supreme Lord, but
in the varrama system, consciously or unconsciously, the service
takes place. We could call it unconscious service, or subconscious
service. That basic principle of service to God is mostly invisible
in varrama, not obvious, as in pure Ka consciousness. We are
chanting Hare Ka, we are serving Ka, worshiping the Deities,
and doing service to guru. This is all obvious loving service to God.
The varrama system is not so crystal clear, although there are
some obvious aspects, like learning to respect authority. That is the
idea in varrama: you must be ready to accept some authority so
that you grow to accept the authority of God. First you accept the
authority of your parents, of your teachers, of the brhmaas, and of
the Vedas; and you respect the demigods and the sages. These are the
preliminary teachings. That is how varrama-dharma works.
society?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Varrama communities must beand will
be established in ISKCON, because rla Prabhupda wanted it to
be so. He has given so many detailed descriptions of the varrama
social order. This was not meant solely as historical information; he
wanted it to be implemented in the future by ISKCON. He made it very
clear that this is what he wanted. Whatever a pure devotee wishes
will definitely materialize. If we cooperate in the process, we are
glorified; if we do not, surely someone else will take the opportunity
for service. But it will happen in any case, simply because of the will
of a pure devotee and of his wholesome desire for Kas service to
manifest. We in ISKCON can make it happen because of the power
given by rla Prabhupda himself to those who sincerely follow his
divine instructions.
Bhagratha Dsa: As you say, if we do not do it, someone else will. Do
you mean, or could it mean, someone outside of ISKCON?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Someone else will come into ISKCON,
someone else will come to serve rla Prabhupda. I am not saying it
Gopparadhana Dsa
133
will happen outside of ISKCON; we are not the only people in ISKCON.
In the future someone else will come and serve rla Prabhupda if
we do not do it now.
understood?
Gopparadhana Dsa: This is due to obstacles, psychological
obstacles. Because of our modern conditioning, we find it difficult to
follow a traditional society in which we have to submit to an authority
and accept a lower position. Nobody wants to be a servant. In modern
society nobody wants to be less than the biggest person. That is a
great obstacle. Besides that, people do not have proper information;
there is nobody to explain varrama to them. Furthermore, mere
theoretical informationeven adequatewould not suffice to
convince people; an example must be set. Sadly, there are extremely
inadequate examples of varrama societies in place, and because
there is no visible proof that the proper setup can exist, we do not
really believe in it.
Bhagratha Dsa: Does it mean that our community needs to work
and be a model, showing how to live varrama?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes.
9. Why did rla Prabhupda instruct, first vara, then rama?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Really? I do not know, because we already
have ramas of some type. rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat hkura
organized the Gauya Maha making a clear distinction between
the duties of different ramasghasthas, vnaprasthas, and
sannyss. That was already recognized outside of ISKCON. In the
Gauya Maha and in ISKCON, all the four ramas are represented
within a spiritual institution. They wear different dresses and have
different duties, responsibilities, and privileges. The rama system
had already been established by rla Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat,
and was then carried over to ISKCON by rla Prabhupda, taking it
as it was from the Gauya Maha.
So I do not know what we mean here, because we have rama
organization already. What is missing now is vara. Just like with
an antique scale, you need to put equal weight on the two plates to
obtain balance. If you put too much on one side, then you have to
start putting something on the other side. So, you have done so much
work on the ramas; now you must do some work on the varas. You
Gopparadhana Dsa
have loaded on the rama side so muchyou label the people as

ghasthas, and then they cannot live in the temple, they are not given
any money, and they have to go out to get a job. So what are we
Gopparadhana Dsa here, on behalf of the ghasthassupposed
to do? We are ghasthas. How are we supposed to have a spiritual life?
That has not been organized. What are the occupational duties of
ghasthas? How can they function as devotees out in the cruel world?
That has to be organized. We stamp these devotees as ghasthas, kick
them out of the temple; now what are they supposed to do? Therefore
the vara organization has to be done to save them.
So when we ask about the relevance of the Lord and devotional

service in varrama-dharma, we have to keep in mind that
sambandha-jna means the understanding of our relationship with
God. If you have an atheistic varrama, then there is no thought
for that. There is no thought of a relationship with God; only the
relationship with the king, the brhmaas, the family members, and
such are considered. But if the most important relationship of all
relationshipsthe connection with Godis left out, then there
is no real sambandha-jna. Sambandha-jna does not mean your
duty to the king or your husband; it means your duty to God. That
understanding is mandatory in daiva-varrama. Otherwise, it is
simply materialistic religiosity.
We are a purely spiritual institution and have not yet
implemented a practical varrama society till now. But that does
not mean we are now going to become materialists, forget Ka
consciousness, and just teach social organization. We want to keep
pure spirituality at the center, while cleverly making it available
to people with material interests. This includes many of our own
devotees who would leave or lose their spiritual stamina because
of material needs. Establishing varrama would allow them to
fulfill these needs within Ka consciousness rather than seeking
a solution outside. This approach will also bring many new people
to Ka consciousness. As stated before, God consciousness may
not be initially obvious in the varrama system. We have to make
it as visible as possible without scaring people away from the setup.
When you quote to devotees sarva-dharmn parityajya, they reply
something like It is a very nice verse. I wish I could surrender, but
I cannot. So for those who cannot fully surrender immediately, we
have to prescribe something practical that will gradually bring them
closer to Ka.
Really, sambandha-jna, abhideya-jna, and prayojana-jna
are for devotees. They should lead and direct the varrama society.
They are the ones who should knowespecially prayojana, the
experience of eternal, blissful intimacy with Ka. Only the most
elevated devotees, fully surrendered and realized, understand these
three branches of knowledge as given by the Lord. If these advanced
devotees, under the light of this absolute knowledge, organize a
varrama society centered on Ka, then even those who would
just incidentally participate in that society would benefit eternally.
Because they would be following those who have seen the Truth,
they would benefit greatly, even without necessarily understanding
much themselves.
134

Gopparadhana Dsa: Education is required for properly situating
people in their vara and rama, especially in the two highest
ramas and varas. The brhmaas and the katriyas need a very
solid and thorough education. You cannot become a real brhmaa
or a real katriya without a very long education. Even the vaiyas
and dras need some education. So in order to guide people and
teach them about positions and duties in a Vedic society, we need
to specifically give them varrama education. If we are giving
pure Ka conscious educationchant Hare Ka, serve Ka,
go back to Godhead, do not care about this worldthen we do
not need to teach the duties of vara and rama. But this applies
only for the small minority who are just going to serve Ka and go
back to Godhead immediately. Everyone else must be taught about
varrama principles.
Bhagratha Dsa: Does that mean that only a very few individuals
can concentrate strictly on Ka, devotional service?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes! Only a very few people can purely follow
Ka consciousness and have no material life. Very few devotees are
ready for that.
11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jna, abhideyajna, and prayojana-jna in relation to varrama and education,
respectively.
Gopparadhana Dsa: Properly speaking, sambandha, abhideya,
and prayojana jna are the knowledge of the Supreme Lord and
of devotional service. These terms come from Vednta, and great
devoteesfor instance, rla Jva Gosvm in his sandarbhas
explained that these have to do with the Lord and devotional service.
135
Gopparadhana Dsa

commodity just like any other product you buy. You pay money and
someone teaches you simply because you paid him. In traditional
education, on the other hand, there is no transaction involved, and
therefore the guru keep his brahminical privileges at all times. He can
thus decide whom he will accept and what he will teach. If you are a
paid teacherpaid either by the students or the governmentyou
are not a brhmaa. That is not brahminical; you could be, at best,
considered a low-class brhmaa. High-class brhmaas do not take
money for teaching, and are therefore endowed with greater dignity.
They have the right to teach the way they want. That is traditional
education. The teacher is in control; the teacher decides what to
teach and to whom. It is not a business operated by a government or
a big corporation; it is run by the teacher.
Another attribute of the traditional system is that there is
service, respect, and even worship offered to the teacher. That is
the basis of education. What you have learned becomes fruitful
only when you get blessings from your teacher. Otherwise, it is just
information dumped into your head, that does not accomplish or
improve you as a person. But when you satisfy your teacher with
service and devotion, that education auspiciously improves your
character.
136
Gopparadhana Dsa: The only merit is to keep children off the

street and off the job market, so that there are enough jobs for the
adults. Child labor is not allowed in many countries because children
are competing with the grown-ups. Adults wanted the jobs, so they
kicked the children out of the factory, sent them to the prison called
school, and locked them up into these institutions. That is the main
purpose of compulsory education. It is to take away children, who
were first locked up in a factory, to lock them up in these so-called
schools. The school is most probably worse, more dangerous. A child
may get his hand cut up by the machine in a factory, but in these
schools he can get misguided spiritually! This is not wanted.
Furthermore, long-term education is not required for most
people, such as dras and vaiyas. It is better that the child goes to
the store, or office, of his father and learns a trade. That is practical
education. That is not child labor or slavery. There should be
compulsory education, but in this way: the child goes to his fathers
store to learn from him, or goes to some master and becomes an
apprentice. Thats practical.
Bhagratha Dsa: Some may argue that if they are not going to school,
they would not gain certain experiences and, as a result, their mental
faculties might remain undeveloped.
Gopparadhana Dsa: If you do not go to hell, you will not
experience hellish sufferings. Going to the hell called school only
to get a miserable material load? I do not think that this is necessary.
School is just hell!
Gopparadhana Dsa: I cannot answer the latter part of your
question and define these terms because they are new to me. But
in regard to comparing traditional and modern, I would first say
that the modern world takes everything and turns it into a product.
Process and consume is their norm. Therefore education is also a
product that you buy and swallow. Education has been shaped into a
137
14. What would you say is the main pitfall in modern education?
Gopparadhana Dsa: The people who are said to be teachers are
no better than animalsworse than animals. They do not know the
purpose of life and are therefore unfit to teach. If unfit people teach,
what would you expect the students to be?
Bhagratha Dsa: Worse.
Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes, at least no better. Thats all I can say
about that. That is their main downfall.
Gopparadhana Dsa: Character.
Bhagratha Dsa: Would you please elaborate on that?
Gopparadhana Dsa: The teachers are brhmaas and are the
natural source of education. Brhmaas and katriyas have to be
selfless. They must keep a selfless attitude in their service to society.
Such rare people, true brhmaas and katriyas, can protect the
citizens well. Teachers can give real education only if they are selfless
Gopparadhana Dsa
in their own attitude. But if leaders are selfish and materialistic,

they cannot provide real education or protection. So that attitude
of service, that selflessness, is the real pillar.
If they feel that a pure and exclusive preacher-training is not for

their children or students, they can develop their own curricula.
That should not be discouraged. Let the parents and the teachers
decide what is important to teach. Only a few will be interested in
the purest thing.
Bhagratha Dsa: What about those who are going to learn something
material; should that go together with devotional service?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes, it has to be. If it is just material, it is
useless. It would fail, because it would be no different than what is
existing in the materialistic world already: hellish prisons. So why
should we create more hellish prisons? If the situation demands it
we should make something partly spiritual and partly material, but
definitely never something completely material.
138
16. What are the pre-requisites for being a qualified teacher or

qualified student?
Gopparadhana Dsa: The teacher must be a brhmaa. He should
be selfless. He has to be clean, truthful, honest, and also simple. He
must have firm faith in the scriptures and have good understanding
and realization of that knowledge. This is the requirement of a
brhmaa who can be a good teacher. A good student should be
willing to hear carefully, with faith, and render service. If you do not
want to serve, you cannot be a good student. Only receiving, without
giving anything in return, is not the proper etiquette for a student.
Gopparadhana Dsa: There cannot be just one curriculum. I do
not think there should be only one curriculum simply because there
is an ideal curriculum for the best students to be taught by the best
teachers. That is only a small percentage of society. Pure spiritual
education, unfortunately, is not for everybody. For example, there
are many devotee parents who feel their children need material
education as well, so someone has to provide that. If they do not get
it from a school run by devotees, they will get it from a materialistic
schoolwhich is not good. So there is a need to make different
kinds of curricula available to them.
Those who are interested in pure spiritual education and in
training our devotees childrenand othersto become preachers
and servants of the rmad-Bhgavatam, will have just one kind
of curriculum. That curriculum should be purely Ka conscious,
developing only the basic skills required to function and preach
i.e., reading, writing, and basic arithmeticbut all revolving around
Ka consciousness. Studying the rmad-Bhgavatam, studying
the Bhagavad-gt, learning how to become a good devoteethis is
the pure and proper curriculum.
But then others, who feel the need to have some more material
knowledge and skills, can organize their own curricula. The parents,
or the devotees who are teaching, can organize in a relevant manner.
139

Gopparadhana Dsa: No! Education is not everyones right.
If somebody acts like a fool, or has no intelligence, or is too lazy
to use his intelligence, then an honorable teacher is not bound to
accept him. Education is definitely a privilege. You have to earn it
by satisfying the teachers. Some people are just too lazy or too stupid
to deserve long-term education.
Gopparadhana Dsa: It may be theoretically relevant. But in
the absolute sense, it is not important. It may be practically useful
for preaching, because if people can read they can take our books.
If they are illiterate, it is more difficult to put them in touch with
rla Prabhupda. For our mission, where books are the basis, it is
undoubtedly advantageous when people are literate. It is never bad
that people learn how to read; even dras and women can learn
it. I do not think it is a bad thing that should be eliminated, and
that the lower classes should remain illiterate. Nobody needs to
remain illiterate. It may be a wrong general concept on their part,
an overrated idea, but I maintain that it is not bad that people learn
how to read.
But most citizens have no real reason to go to university. They
should learn how to read from a simple grammar school. There
is no need for university in that regard. Many people who attend
universities do not learn anything substantial. I am convinced that
140
university education is not required for most people. But I believe

that every human being should have a chance to learn how to read
and writethat is good.
Gopparadhana Dsa: We should pay attention to rla Prabhupdas
instructions on this matter. Devotees should read Prabhupdas
purports in the rmad-Bhgavatam, his conversations, and his
letters, and should realize that these are not ordinary instructions.
That we are not this body, that we should get out of my, and all
such instructions, are not just for the public at largethey are first
for us devotees! Similarly, we should understand that his numerous
instructions on varrama are not just a description of some bygone
time, nor some dream that someone else will manifest for us. We
should read Prabhupdas instructions with the understanding that
these are meant for us and that we must do something about it.
Most important is to get a varrama society started. It is more
important than engaging in a lot of endless discussion. We have
to do something practical and develop ourselves into vars and
ramas. It is better to do something in your own life rather than
to write a lot of essays on the subject. To merely talk theoretically
about varrama to everyone, trying to convince them to follow it,
is neither very dynamic nor truly progressive.
Bhagratha Dsa: Does it mean that we need to do it ourselves and
set an example to the world?
Gopparadhana Dsa: Yes! Varrama-dharma is not really about
rhetoric, but about taking practical steps.
Bhagratha Dsa: Thank you very much for taking the time to share
your valuable realizations, prabhuji. Hare Ka!
Gopparadhana Dsa: Thank you. Hare Ka!
141
143
142
Chapter 6
Conclusion
In teaching the children, you should refer very carefully to my

books. The qualities of a brhmaas as mentioned in Bhagavadgt chapter 18, amo damas tapa auca. You must teach these
qualities. These qualities will naturally come out, if you just give
the process purely. The information is there in my books so if
you strictly adhere to them then your program of teaching will be
successful. First of all you must teach by your personal example.
This is the principle of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, pani cari
bhakti karila pracra. So you yourself must chant sixteen rounds
and follow the regulative principles and automatically they will do
as you are doing. Then they will become strong Vaiavas.
(Letter to HirayagarbhaAugust, 1974)
Modern-day educationists and scholars of various fields

of knowledge will never be able to accept the Vedic approach to
education unless they radically change their worldview. As pointed
out by various speakers in this book, such a change in viewpoint
begins by accepting the definition of knowledge given by Ka
in the Bhagavad-gt (7.2). Knowledge, the basis of education,
must include the material, or phenomenal (jna), as well as the
spiritual, or numinous (vijna), dimension of life, the latter being
more important. Only if this definition is accepted will attempts at
education become meaningful and scientific.
The ancient seers (brhmaas) and political leaders (katriyas,
or rjarissaintly kings) of India considered human life to be a
rare opportunity for spiritual emancipation. The first aphorism of
the well-known Vednta-stra is:
attho brahma-jijs
Now that we have attained this human form of life, we should
inquire about the Absolute Truth.
Vednta signifies the end of all knowledge, the ultimate
conclusion. However, we should not prematurely conclude, as the
Myvds (impersonalists) do, that a life dedicated to spirituality
(according to the ideals set by Vednta) entails dry rejection of
the material energy. The conclusion of all Vaiava cryas is
that the material energy is not to be rejected, but engaged in the
service of Ka. Each of the four material pursuitsdharma
(religiosity), artha (economic development), kma (pleasure), and
moka (liberation)is, per se, undoubtedly useless. Still, until the
embodied conditioned soul is liberated, he has need for such pursuit.
Our philosophy is to remove a thorn with a thorn, or to remove
a material desire by dovetailing it into Kas service. The ryan
social science, daiva-varrama, fulfills all those needsdharma,
artha, kma, and mokain a way that draws a human being toward
bhakti. A sdhaka whose basic material needs are met and who is
engaged in the Lords service according to his nature will not be
Conclusion
inclined to fulfill those needs away from Ka. His sdhana is stable,
and thus he is not easily distracted from the goal. rla Prabhupda
explained that varrama will make it easy for the masses to enter
pure devotional service:
the power of the holy name can such a cultural revolution manifest.
But until we have become liberated, brahma-bhta, we are obliged to
scientifically dovetail our other activities into bhakti, according to
the authorized process.
So we must revert to the stras. But how did we, in Kali-yuga,
come to know about Vedic scriptures in the first place? We owe
our understanding of traditional education, and our inspiration
for humbly attempting to reintroduce it into society, to His Divine
Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta rla Prabhupdathe ideal brhmaa,
devotee, and guru of the whole world. In one of his majestic purports,
he has encapsulated our approach:
144
But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also
so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very
easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahprabhu, personality like
thatthey have nothing to do with this material world. But we are
preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation
in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual
plane. (ConversationMypur, 14 February 1977)
In the varrama system, one progresses toward liberation
(moka) by the selfless performance of his prescribed duties (dharma).
This path, although itself not bhakti, is very congenial and conducive
to bhakti. The varrama system leads to liberation without
neglecting the physical, mental, and social needs of the individual,
because economic development (artha) and comfort (kma) are the
natural outcome of ones proper performance of prescribed duties
(dharma). But in the daiva-varrama system, dharma, artha, kma,
and even moka are never considered ends in themselves. They
are seen as favorable situations for serving Ka. Unfortunately,
modern society and its education are devoid of bhakti. Moreover,
the modern atheistic view leads the mass of people to believe that
artha and kma are the ultimate goal of life. Their pursuit of artha
and kma is disconnected from dharma, and they have no interest
in moka. They will care only for artha and kma, the lower half of
material life. But there is no scope for success, neither material nor
spiritual, in that pursuit.
In Vaiava society, the citizens worship the Supreme Lord by
performing their occupationsvarramcra-vat puruea para
pumn viur rdhyate (Viu Pura 3.8.9)so in Vedic education
one would learn a traditional occupation that fit his conditioned
nature. That aptitude-based education would lead to an aptitudebased occupation. For most, education was non-formal. Generally
only brhmaas and katriyas would learn their occupations through
a formal education. To situate everyone properly, we must follow the
scriptures. If we hope to build a house in which the whole world
can live, there is no alternative. This understanding does not
minimize the supreme position of the holy name; indeed, solely from
145
Vedic knowledge means to understand the Supreme Personality

of Godhead, Ka. Therefore, whether one speaks of the Vedas,
scriptures, religion or the principles of everyones occupational
duty, all of them must aim at understanding Ka, the Supreme
Personality of Godhead. (SB 7.11.7, purport)
The Vedic literature is classified as either ruti or smti. In
the same purport, rla Prabhupda points out that the smti, the
scriptures following the principles of Vedic knowledge, are considered
the evidence of Vedic principles. Whereas the rutis refer largely to
the spiritual and to transcendental knowledge, the smtis encompass
all material arts and sciences needed for functioning properly while
living in this material world. In other words, the rutis are likened
to theoretical knowledge, while the smtis are the application of that
knowledge. In any science, a theory is proven by its application; so the
smtis demonstrate the rutis. Prabhupda calls it the evidence. This
point is most significant, especially in the context of education.
The following comments by rla Prabhupda are in relation to
an important instruction given by r Nrada Muni:
dharma-mla hi bhagavn sarva-vedamayo hari
smta ca tad-vid rjan yena ctm prasdati
The Supreme Being, the Personality of Godhead, is the essence
of all Vedic knowledge, the root of all religious principles, and the
memory of great authorities. O King Yudhihira, this principle of
religion is to be understood as evidence. On the basis of this religious
principle, everything is satisfied, including ones mind, soul and
even ones body. (SB 7.11.7)
Conclusion
In the context of education, the message is that as we come to

understand the essence of all Vedic knowledge, we should mold our
lives in the most conducive manner for realizing that knowledge.
This influences the way we live, the way we study, the way we apply
knowledge, and the way we interrelate. We must simplify our lives,
simplify our educational system bring them back to their simple,
natural, and cultured expressions. Traditional education emphasises
and demonstrates those principles. That is the standard which
we need to bring our educators (brhmaas) and world leaders
(katriyas) back to. As mentioned in the introduction of this chapter,
education means to give knowledge of both spirit (par vidy) and
matter (apar vidy). One without the other is incomplete.
us, but this is the problem. The Prahlda Mahrja recommends,

kaumra caret prjo dharmn bhgavatn iha (SB 7.6.1). This is
very, very important message. We should be careful to educate our
sons, our boys, with bhgavata-dharma from the very beginning of
life. That was the Vedic system. Therefore, in the first twenty-five
years of life, the children were sent to gurukula for learning this
bhgavata-dharma.
(Pandal LectureDelhi, November 1971)
146
From our Vaiava cryas we learn that we will succeed

only when sambandha-jna (the science of relations), abhideyajna (the science of activity), and prayojana-jna (the science
of destination) are understood. In essence, our curricula are
derived from the Bhagavad-gt and rmad-Bhgavatam, described
respectively as the ABCs of spiritual life and the cream of all Vedic
literatures. The ill-defined and unscientific modern education will
never bring peace or harmony, neither to individuals nor to society.
This unfortunate situation is due to a neglect of the Vedic wisdom.
(Members of ISKCON should not fall into the same trap!) Such socalled educational activities are considered by sages to be merely a
disturbance to society. rla Prabhupda boldly called such so-called
educational institutions slaughterhouses.
Dont spoil your children. The modern educational system
without any knowledge of Bhagavn, I may tell you frankly, not only
in India, everywhere, they are practically slaughterhouse. Because
in our country, it is a different thing; at least we have got the Vedic
culture at home if it is not in the schools. But in other countries,
because there is no bhgavata-dharma culture, the students,
although they are provided with ample opportunity for education, the
nicest educational system, nice building, nice facilities, everything
nice, unfortunately the products are coming out frustrated,
confused young men, and some of them are called hippies. They
are educated. They are coming from very nice aristocratic family.
In Western countries, in comparison to our country, every home is
aristocratic. At least their standard of living is so high. So what we
call aristocratic, that is a common affair. So this mishappening is
going on all over the Western countries. Some of them are joining
147
Therefore, the conclusion is, these religious and social leaders

are rascals. If they want to be saved from their rascal position, this is
the only method. Ka consciousness. Genuine God consciousness.
Otherwise, how can they be saved from the cycle of rebirth and
death? They are tma-hana. tma-hana means self-killing.
Suicidal. If you cut your own throat, who can save you?
(ConversationParis, June 15, 1974)
rla Prabhupdas comment is, as always, perfectly in line with
Vednta. We find proof in r opaniad:
asury nma te lok andhena tamasvt
ts te pretybhigacchanti ye ke ctma-hano jan
The killer of the soul, whoever he may be, must enter into the
planets known as the worlds of the faithless, full of darkness and
ignorance. (r opaniad 3)
ke matir astu,
Bhakti Rghava Swami
149
148
Appendix
List with Index of the Questions used in the Interviews
pages: 1, 53, 97, 129
pages: 1, 53, 99, 129
pages: 5, 54, 100, 130
4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation
to its knowledge and implementation of the Vedic concepts of
education?
pages: 7, 54, 100, 130
5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in
education?
pages: 9, 60, 102, 131
pages: 10, 39,103, 132
7. Can varrama communities be established in our present,
modern society?
pages: 12, 62, 103, 132
understood?
pages: 12, 64, 105, 133
pages: 15, 67, 106, 133
151
150
pages: 16, 68, 111, 134
pages: 19, 69, 111, 150
pages: 20, 69, 111, 136
traditional education and what is called modern education,
and also define formal, informal, and non-formal education.
pages: 23, 70, 113, 136
pages: 25, 71, 114, 137
pages: 27, 72, 114, 137
16. What are the prerequisites for being a qualified teacher or
qualified student?
pages: 31, 72, 114, 150
of the curriculum should be from traditional sources, and how
much should be from other sources?
pages: 31, 73, 115, 138
pages: 33, 73, 116, 139
pages: 34, 73, 121, 139
pages: 34, 75, 126, 140
Glossary
A
abhideya: the regulated activities of the soul for reviving his
relationship with the Lord; devotional service.
Abhimanyu: the heroic son Arjuna and Subhadr. He was killed by
the Son of Dusana. (Droa Parva in Mahbhrata)
academia: the academic community, connotes especially modern.
cra: behaviors, activities.
crya: a spiritual master who teaches by his own example, and who
sets the proper religious example for all human beings.
rama: one of the four spiritual orders of life-brahmacr-rama, or
student life; Ghasta-rama, or married life; vnaprastha, or retired
life; and sannysa-rama, or the renounced order of life; the home
of the spiritual master, a place where spiritual practices are executed.
raya: the Transcendence, who is the source and support of all; the
worshiper.
Aditi: the mother of the demigods.
ahakra: false ego, by which the soul misidentifies with the material
body.
agas: a limb; a part; a subdivision.
akara-jna: knowledge of the alphabet; knowledge of God
aga-yoga: the eightfold system of mystic yoga, propounded by
Patajali, meant for realizing the presence of Paramtm, the Lord
in the heart.
apar vidy: Vedic knowledge of mind and matter that includes
logic, grammar, astrology, medicine, social organization, martial arts,
music, dance and so on (as distinct from par vidy, the science of
God).
apasampradyas: devious disciplic succession, promoting faulty
conclusions.
apprenticeship: agreement to work for another for a specific amount
of time in return for instruction in a trade, an art, or a business.
Aristotle: Greek philosopher. A pupil of Plato, the tutor of Alexander
the Great, and the author of works on logic, metaphysics, ethics,
natural sciences, politics, and poetics.
Glossary
Arjuna: the third son of Pu and intimate friend of Lord Ka.

artha: economic development.
ryan: a follower of Vedic culture. A person whose goal is spiritual
advancement.
asat-saga: materialistic association bad for spiritual development
asat-saga-tyga: to give up asat-saga.
sur-varrama: varrama practiced improperly or for
materialistic goals.
tma: the self, referring either to the soul, the mind, the body, or all.
tma-hana: killer of the soul; one who neglects spiritual life.
tmrma: one who is self-satisfied, free from external, material
desires.
avidy: nescience, ignorance; the illusory energy of the Supreme
Lord.
grandfather of the present day Ka consciousness movement. A

powerful preacher.
Bhaktivinoda Thkura: the father of rila Bhaktisiddhnta
Sarasvat, and the grand-spiritual master of His Divine Grace A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupda.
Bhrata: an ancient king of India and a great devotee of the Lord
from whom the Pavas descended.
bhva-bhakti: the platform of purified goodness when one's heart
melts in devotional service; the first stage of love of Godhead.
Bollywood: the Indian version of Hollywood; popular Indian
cinematography.
brahma-bhta: the joyful state of being freed from material
contamination. One in this state is characterized by transcendental
happiness, and he engages in the service of the Supreme Lord;
liberation.
brahmacr: a celibate student under the care of a spiritual master.
One in the first order of spiritual life.
Brahma-sahit: a very ancient Sanskrit scripture recording the
prayers of Brahm offered to the Supreme Lord, Govinda, recovered
from a temple in South India by Lord Caitanya.
brahma-vidy: transcendental knowledge.
brahminical: pertaining to the Vedic culture.
buddhi-yog: one who uses his action, in knowledge, to serve the
Supreme Lord.
152
B
Balarma: the first plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, Lord Ka. He appeared as the son of Rohi and elder
brother of Lord Ka.
Bali Mahrja: the king of the demons who gave three paces of land
to Vamanadeva, the dwarf incarnation of Lord Viu, and thereby
became a great devotee by surrendering everything to Him.
BBT: the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, founded by rla Prabhupda to
publish his work.
Benjamin Franklin: American public official, writer, scientist, and
printer.
Bhagavad-gt: a seven-hundred verse record of a conversation
between Lord Ka and His disciple, Arjuna.
Bhgavatam: see rmad-Bhgavatam.
bhagavat-dharma: the essence of all religion, service to the Supreme
Personality of Godhead; bhakti.
bhakti: devotional service to the Supreme Lord; purified service of
the senses of the Lord by one's own senses; Love and devotion to the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Ka.
bhakti-str: the name of a course and a degree coined by rla
Prabhupda designed to study his books.
Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat: the spiritual master of His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupda, and thus the spiritual
153
C
Cakya Paita: the brhmaa advisor to King Candragupta
responsible for checking Alexander the Great's invasion of India.
He is a famous author of books containing aphorisms on politics and
morality.
Caitanya: Lord Ka in the aspect of His own devotee. He appeared
in Navadvpa, West Bengal, and inaugurated the congregational
chanting of the holy names of the Lord to teach pure love of God by
means of sakrtana.
Canto: name of the parts of the rmad-Bhgavatam.
chadar: an Indian shawl.
Compulsory education: Education imposed by a government.
dab: a tender coconut.
154
Glossary
ways to kill them. It was for the sake of establishing Duryodhana as

king of the world that the Kurus fought the Battle of Kuruketra. He
was killed by Bhma when the later broke his thighs on the last day
of the battle of Kuruketra.
Dvpara-yuga: the third age of the cycle of a mah-yuga. It lasts more
than 864,000 years.
Dvrak: the island kingdom of Lord Ka, lying off India's west
coast, where He performed pastimes five thousand years ago. The
capital city of the Yadus.
dvijas: the twice-born, the three upper varas in the Vedic social
system.
daa: a staff carried by those in the renounced order of life,

sannyss.
daiva-varrama: the social system given by God for the upliftment
of mankind; the system of four social and four spiritual orders
established in the Vedic scriptures and discussed by r Ka in the
Bhagavad-gt.
Dalai Lama: the traditional governmental ruler and highest priest of
the Buddhist religion in Tibet and Mongolia.
darana: the act of seeing and being seen by the Deity in the temple
or by a spiritually advanced person.
dru: a log of wood.
Darwinism: the atheistic theory of the origin of life by biological
evolution.
Deity worship: the procedures followed for worshiping the Deity in
the temple.
Devahti: the daughter of Svyambhuva Manu who was the wife
of Kardama Muni and the mother of the Lord's incarnation Lord
Kapila.
Dhma: abode of the Lord; a sacred place.
Dhanurveda: the Vedic military science.
dharma: religious principles; one's natural occupation. The capacity
to render service, which is the essential quality of a living being.
dhoti: garment consisting of a simple long piece of cloth, folded
around the lower body.
Dhruva: a great devotee who at the age of five performed severe
austerities and realized the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Diti: a wife of Kayapa Muni, and the mother of the demons
Hirayka and Hirayakaipu.
Durg: Lord iva's wife in a fierce form, riding a tiger. The goddess
is empowered by the Supreme Lord to preside over the material
nature and bewilder the souls situated there into misconceiving
themselves to be their material bodies and enjoyers and controllers
of the mundane creation. She is very powerful, superseded only by
Lord Viu Himself, and is the external manifestation of the Lord's
internal potency, Yoga-my.
Duryodhana: the first born and chief of the evil-minded one hundred
sons of Dhtarra, and chief rival of the Pavas. He was a wicked
asura by birth. He became envious of the Pavas and tried in many
155
gha: a house; a household.

ghastha: householder stage of life. One who lives in God conscious
married life and raises a family in Ka consciousness; regulated
householder living according to the Vedic social system; the second
order of Vedic spiritual life.
Garua: Lord Viu's eternal carrier, a great devotee, the son of Aditi
and Kayapa who takes the form of an eagle and is the bird carrier
of Lord Viu. He is often found atop a pole facing the entrance of
Viu temples. The emblem of Garua is always on the chariot of
Lord Ka.
Gauya Vaiavas: Devotees of Lord Caitanya.
Gaura-Kiora Dsa Bbj: the guru of rila Bhaktisiddhnta
Sarasvat.
Gautama: one of the seven sons born from Lord Brahma's mind. He
is the author of Nyya-stra, the science of logic.
goalas: cowshed.
Gosvms of Vndvana: the most important disciples of Lord
Caitanya.
Graham Bell: the inventor of the telephone.
grmyakath: village gossip; talks detrimental to spiritual life.
grantha-rja: a name of the rmad-Bhgavatam which means the
king of scriptures.
grantha: scriptures; a holy book.
gua: the three modes of material nature: goodness (sattva-gua),
passion (rajo-gua) and ignorance (tamo-gua). They are the ropes
binding us to this world. Everything in the material world is enacted
by these modes.
Glossary
gunda: an Indian gangster or criminal.

guru: spiritual master; one of the three authorities for a Vaiava.
Literally, this term means heavy. The spiritual master is called guru
because he is heavy with knowledge.
guru-bhakti: devotion for the spiritual master.
gurukula: a place where one studies under the guru; brahminical
school.
gurukul: student of a gurukula.
156
H
Hari: the Supreme Lord.
Haridsa hkura: although born in a Muslim family, he was a
confidential associate of r Caitanya Mahprabhu. He was so
absorbed in the nectar of the Holy Name that he chanted day and
night, and it was his regular practice to chant 300,000 names of the
Lord daily.
Harikea Prabhu: a prominent spiritual master in ISKCON during
the 80's and 90's.
Harmonist: a Gaudiya periodical published by rila Bhaktisiddhnta
Sarasvat.
Hastinpur: the capital of the whole world during Vedic times, and
seat of power of the Kurus.
holistic: emphasizing the importance of the whole and the
interdependence of its parts.
holistic education: an education which covers all aspects of life,
spiritual and material.
homa: a Vedic fire sacrifice.
homa-kua: the place where the sacrificial fire is lit and the sacrifice
performed.
Homer: Greek epic poet. Two of the greatest works in Western
literature, the Iliad and the Odyssey, are attributed to him.
I
Ikvku: the son of the sun-god, Vivasvn, and the first king of the
earth planet.
Indology: the branch of Western science which studies the history
and culture of India.
Indraprastha: the kingdom of the Pavas.
157
Jaganntha: a form a Lord Ka that appeared in Pur.

Jaipur: the capital of Rajasthan and the home of many great kings.
jaa-tattva: knowledge of the material phenomena.
jar: old age.
Jva Gosvm: one of the Six Gosvms of Vndvana and the
nephew of Rupa and Santana Gosvms.
jva-tattva: the living entity, separated part and parcel of Ka.
jna: knowledge.
jn: empiric philosopher.
K
Kayapa: a great saint who was the father of many demigods and also
of the Supreme Lord's incarnation Vmanadeva; one of the seven
mental sons of Lord Brahm.
Kali-yuga: the Age of Quarrel and Hypocrisy The fourth and last
age in the cycle of a mah-yuga. This is the present age in which
we are now living. It began 5,000 years ago and lasts for a total of
432,000 years. It is characterized by irreligious practice and stringent
material miseries.
kma: lust; the desire to gratify one's own senses; Desire, especially
material desire and sexual desire.
Ka: the original, two-armed form of the Supreme Lord, who is the
origin of all expansions.
kanihas: a neophyte devotee.
Kardama: the father of Lord Kapila and one of the chief forefathers
of the population of the universe.
Kara: the eldest son of Kunt before her marriage to Pu. She
had received a mantra from Durvs Muni that she could call any
deva and conceive children. In her innocence she called Srya, the
sun-god and conceived Kara. She was forced to abandon the child
out of fear of her relatives. Kara was then raised by Adhiratha and
Rdh. He fought against the Pavas and was killed by Arjuna in
the battle of Kuruketra.
karma: actions and reactions pertaining to the material body.
karma-ka: materialistic religious ritual.
Karm: a fruitive worker; one under the pangs of karma; one who
believes that hapiness can be found in this world.
katriya: noble king or warrior, third of the four orders of the
Glossary
varrama system. Those who are inclined to fight and lead others.
The administrative or protective occupation according to the system
of four social and spiritual orders.
krodha: anger.
Kuruketra: a holy place due to the penances of King Kuru. It was here
that the great Mahbhrata war was fought; situated about ninety
miles north of New Delhi where Lord Ka spoke the Bhagavad-gt
to Arjuna, five thousand years ago. It is a place of pilgrimage.
microcosm: a small, representative system having analogies to a

larger system in constitution
moha: illusion.
158
L
ll: a transcendental pastime or activity performed by God or His
devotee; The endlessly expanding spiritual activities and pastimes
of Ka.
M
macrocosm: A system reflecting on a large scale one of its component
systems or parts.
Mahbhrata: an ancient, Sanskrit, epic history of Bhrata, or India
composed by Kra Dvaipyana Vysadeva, the literary incarnation
of Godhead, in 100,000 verses. The essence of all Vedic philosophy,
the Bhagavad-gt, is a part of this great work.
Mahprabhu: see Caitanya.
Mahrja: a great king or great saintly person.
magala-rati: the daily predawn worship ceremony honoring the
Deity of the Supreme Lord.
manana: contemplation and practice.
mantra: a pure sound vibration that can deliver the mind from its
material inclinations and illusion.
Manu: Svayambhuva Manu, a demigod son of Brahm who is the
original father and lawgiver of the human race.
Manu-sahit: the scriptural lawbook for mankind, written by
Manu, the administrative demigod, and father of mankind.
maha: a Vedic monastery.
mtj: respected mother.
my: the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord.
Mypur: the birth place of Lord Caitanya and world headquarter
of ISKCON.
Myvds: impersonalist philosophers.
159
moka: liberation.
mukti: liberation.
mrti: from of the Lord; the Deity in the temple.
N
Naimiraya: a sacred forest in central India where the eighteen
Puras were spoken and which is said to be the hub of the universe.
naiik-brahmacr: a lifelong brahmacr who does not get married.
Nanda Mahrja: father of Lord Kra.
Nrada Muni: a pure devotee of the Lord, one of the sons of Lord
Brahm, who travels throughout the universes in his eternal body,
glorifying devotional service while delivering the science of bhakti.
He is the spiritual master of Vysadeva and of many other great
devotees.
Nawab: Muslim ruler.
nididhysana: acting on realization.
niyamgraha: either following rules and regulations insufficiently or
fanatically without understanding the goal.
numinous: relating to the transcendence.
nyya: logic.
P
ps: the priests taking care of a holy place.
Pavas: the five pious katriya brothers Yudhihira, Bhma,
Arjuna, Nakula, and Sahadeva. They were intimate friends of Lord
Ka's and inherited the leadership of the world upon their victory
over the Kurus in the Battle of Kuruketra.
paita: a greatly learned man.
paramahasa: a topmost, God-realized, swanlike devotee of the
Supreme Lord.
parampar: the disciplic succession through which spiritual
knowledge is transmitted by bona-fide spiritual masters; literally,
one after the other. It refers to the disciplic succession of spiritual
masters and their disciples who became spiritual masters, beginning
Glossary
with Ka and Brahm, His disciple at the dawn of creation.

par vidy: transcendental knowledge.
Parkit: the son of Abhimanyu and grandson of Arjuna. When the
Pavas retired from kingly life, he was crowned king of the entire
world. He was later cursed to die by an immature brhmaa boy and
became the hearer of rmad-Bhgavatam from ukadeva Gosvm,
and thus attained perfection.
Parthasarathi: a name of Kra as the chariot driver of Arjuna.
pesantren: a muslim traditional religious school.
phenomenal: pertaining to the material world.
Plato: Greek philosopher. A follower of Socrates.
prana: a question.
pramamantra: the specific mantra of invocation for a personality.
praipt: the submissive attitude of a disciple.
Prahlda: a great devotee of Lord Ka who was persecuted by his
atheistic father, Hirayakaipu, but was always protected by the
Lord and ultimately saved by the Lord in the form of Nsihadeva;
A great devotee of the Lord in His Narasiha (man-lion) feature,
Prahlda is one of the foremost authorities on bhakti-yoga. Many
important verses in rmad-Bhgavatam are spoken by him.
prkta-sahajiys: pseudo devotees of Ka who take devotional
service cheaply and do not follow the regulations of the scripture;
materialistic so-called Vaiavas who imagine themselves to be
confidential devotees.
prakti: material nature; the external energy of the Lord.
prasda: remnants of food offered to the Lord; holy food.
prayojana: the ultimate goal of life, to develop love of God.
prema: pure love of God, the highest perfectional stage of life.
prema-bhakti: pure love of Lord Ka, the highest perfectional
stage in the progressive development of pure devotional service.
Rdhr: Lord Ka's most intimate consort, who the

personification of the internal, pleasure potency of Lord Ka. She
appeared in this world as the daughter of King Vsabhnu and Kirtidev and is the Queen of Vndvana. The most favorite consort of
Ka in Vrindavana, situated on Lord Ka's left on altars and
pictures; The feminine counterpart of Lord Ka. She directs the
nanda potency (hldin-akti) for the transcendental pleasure of
the Lord.
rjaris: great saintly kings.
rja-vidy: the king of knowledge, knowledge of Rdh-Ka
Rmacandra: the eighteenth incarnation of the Supreme Personality
of Godhead, the killer of the tenheaded demon king, Rvaa.
Rma was exiled to the forest on the order of His father, Mahrja
Daaratha. His wife St was kidnapped by Rvaa, but by employing
a huge army of monkeys, who were the powerful and intelligent
offspring of demigods, He regained his wife in battle, and eventually
His ancestral kingdom too. This great epic is recounted in Vlmki's
Rmyaa.
160
pjrs: priests in charge of a Deity in a temple.

Pur: the holy place in Orissa where Lord Jaganatha appeared.
R
Rdh-Govindaj: same as Rdh-Ka.
161
Rmyaa: the original epic history about Lord Rmacandra and

St, written by Vlmki Muni.
rasa: relationship between the Lord and the living entities; mellow,
or the sweet taste of a relationship, especially between the Lord and
the living entities.
Ratha-ytr: festival where the Deity of Lord Jaganatha is pull on a
chariot.
RSS:
organization promoting Hinduism in India.
Rpa Gosvm: chief of the six great spiritual master Gosvms of

Vndvana who were authorized by Lord Caitanya Mahprabhu to
establish and distribute the philosophy of Ka consciousness. He
extensively researched the scriptures and established the philosophy
taught by Lord Caitanya on an unshakable foundation.
S
sadcra: ideal behavior.
sdhaka: one who practices sdhana.
sdhana: regulated spiritual practice.
sdhana-bhakti: following the rules and regulations of devotional
service to develop natural love for Ka.
162
sdhana-siddha: one who has attained perfection in sdhana-bhakti;

a liberated devotee.
sdhu: a saintly person; a homeless renunciant.
sdhu-sanga: associating with devotees .
alya: the King of Madras. His sister was Mdr who was married
to Pu. He wanted to join the side of the Pavas during the
Kuruketra war, but was tricked by Duryodhana into offering him
his services. He was killed by Yudhihira during the Kuruketra war.
sakrtana: the congregational glorification of the Lord through
chanting His holy name. The most recommended process of spiritual
upliftment in the present age.
Skhya: analytical discrimination between spirit and matter.
sambandha-jna: knowledge of one's original relationship with the
Lord.
Santana Gosvm: one of the Six Gosvms of Vndvana who was
authorized by Lord Caitanya Mahprabhu to establish and distribute
the philosophy of Ka consciousness. He was the older brother of
Rpa Gosvm and was accepted by Rpa Gosvm as his spiritual
master.
santana-dharma: literally, the eternal activity of the soul, or the
eternal religion of the living being-to render service to the Supreme
Lord, which in this age is executed mainly by chanting the mahmantra.
Sandarbhas: the six Sanskrit works on the science of devotional
service or Vaiava philosophy by rla Jva Gosvm. These works
present the entire philosophy and theology of Gauya Vaiavism
in a systematic form.
sannysa: the renounced order, and fourth stage of Vedic spiritual life
in the Vedic system of varsrama-dharma, which is free from family
relationships and in which all activities are completely dedicated to
Ka.
sannys: one in the renounced order of life.
Sanskrit: the eternal original language spoken by the Lord and the
demigods.
stras: the revealed scriptures, obeyed by all those who follow the
Vedic teachings, Vedic literature.
sttvika: of the nature of the mode of goodness.
seva: devotional service.
Glossary
163
siddhnta: ultimate scriptural conclusion.

siddh: mystic power.
ilpa-stra: the Vedic art of sculpture and temple architecture.
smti: revealed scriptures supplementary to the ruti, or original
Vedic scriptures, which are the Vedas and Upaniads; scriptures
compiled by living entities under transcendental direction; the
corollaries of the Vedas.
Socrates: Greek philosopher who initiated a question-and-answer
method of teaching as a means of achieving self-knowledge.
Sophists: one skilled in elaborate and devious argumentation;
Greek philosopher of pre-Socratic times who inquired about and
speculated on theology, metaphysics, mathematics, and the natural
and biological sciences.
ravaa: the devotional process of hearing about the Supreme Lord;
learning by hearing.
rmad-Bhgavatam: the foremost of the eighteen Puras, the
complete science of God that establishes the supreme position of
Lord Ka.
ruti: knowledge via hearing; the original Vedic scriptures (the Vedas
and Upaniads), given directly by the Supreme Lord.
sthpati: sculptor.
Sudm: an intimate friend of Ka.
Sudarana: the disc weapon of the Supreme Lord, Viu.
dra: a member of the fourth social order, laborer class, in the
traditional Vedic social system. He is meant to render service to the
three higher classes, namely the brhmaas, the katriyas, and the
vaiyas.
ukadeva Gosvm: an exhalted devotee who recited the rmadBhgavatam to King Parkit during the last seven days of the King's
life.
svarpa: the living entity's original form in which he eternally serves
the Lord; the real form of the soul.
T
tla: musical rhythm.
tattva: truth, reality. Vedic knowledge categorizes reality into tattvas.
hkura: honorific term reserved for very great saints.
Glossary
theosophy: religious philosophy or speculation about the nature of

the soul based on mystical insight into the nature of God.
tithi: appropriate astrological timing.
trivedi: one who has studied the three Vedas.
tyga: renunciation.
Vedntic: pertaining to Vednta.

Vedas: the system of eternal wisdom compiled by rla Vysadeva, the
literary incarnation of the Supreme Lord, for the gradual upliftment
of all mankind from the state of bondage to the state of liberation.
Vedic: pertaining to the Vedas.
Vidypham: sacred place where knowledge is transmitted.
vijna: realized knowledge.
viaya: the object of worship.
Vysadeva: the literary incarnation of God, and the greatest
philosopher of ancient times.
164
U
upacra: procedures of worship.
updis: false temporary designations in regards to the body and mind.
upakurvaa-brahmacr: a brahmacr who plans to marry after his
studies.
Upaniads: one-hundred and eight Sanskrit treatises that embody
the philosophy of the Vedas. The most significant philosophical
sections and crest jewels of the Vedas.
V
vaiya: member of the mercantile or agricultural class, according to
the system of four social orders and four spiritual orders.
vaidh: rules and regulations.
Vaiava: a devotee of the Supreme Lord, Viu, or Ka.
Vaiavism: the science of bhakti-yoga, devotional service to Viu,
or Ka.
vnaprastha: retired family life, in which one quits home to cultivate
renunciation and travels from holy place to holy place in preparation
for the renounced order of life; the third order of Vedic spiritual life;
A retired householder.
Vndvana: Ka's eternal abode, where He fully manifests His
quality of sweetness; the village on this earth in which He enacted
His childhood pastimes five thousand years ago; the topmost
transcendental abode of the Supreme Lord.
varrama-dharma: the divine system of four social and four
spiritual orders established in the Vedic scriptures and discussed by
r Ka in the Bhagavad-gt.
varas: one of the four Vedic social-occupational divisions of society,
distinguished by quality of work and situation with regard to the
modes of nature.
Vedgas: sciences to apply the Vedas practically.
Vednta: the conclusion of Vedic philosophy.
165
Y
Yaod: the mother of Ka.
yaja: a Vedic sacrifice; also, a name for the Supreme Lord meaning
the personification of sacrifice; the goal and enjoyer of all sacrifices.
yaja-upavta: the sacred thread.
yoga: a spiritual discipline meant for linking one's consciousness
with the Supreme Lord, Ka; Literally, connection; the discipline
of self-realization.
yog: one who practices yoga.
Yudhihira: the eldest of the Pavas in the Mahbhrata, and the
son of Dharmarja or Yamarja, the god of death. It was the dispute
over his succession to the throne in India that led to the Battle of
Kuruketra; he ruled the earth after the Kuruketra war.
Z
zeitgeist: the spirit of the time; the taste and outlook characteristic
of a period or generation.
Index
166
Index
167
abhideya: 19, 20, 27, 39, 69, 73, 111, barber: 125
134, 135, 146
basic: vii, viii, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16,
22-24, 27, 29, 31, 33, 34, 40, 48, 49,
Abhimanyu: 72
52, 59, 60, 78, 81, 89, 93, 100, 103,
academic: iii, 25, 53, 69, 70, 74
108, 115, 116, 126, 131, 132, 138, 143
raya: 56, 57
behavior: 13, 40, 45, 88, 98
administration: 7, 11, 14, 20, 26,
Bhagavad-gt: 1, 25, 27, 28, 31, 33,
29, 46-48, 50, 53, 74, 104, 108
83, 90, 91, 97, 100, 110, 122, 123
agrarian: 8, 33, 63
bhakti: 3, 10, 19, 20, 32, 39, 53, 61,
agriculture: 14, 62, 94
80, 81, 82, 88, 89, 103, 129, 143,
alternative: 7, 21, 26, 29, 69, 79, 144, 145
86, 87, 144
Bhakti-str: 3, 61
America: 21, 60, 78, 89, 92, 106, Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvat: 15, 82,
117
84, 109, 133
animal: vii, 2, 24, 26, 50, 146
Bhaktivinoda hkura: 15, 81, 82
aga-yoga: 130
brahmacr: 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19, 29,

31, 41-47, 67, 68, 72, 73, 88, 92, 93,
102, 104, 106, 111
aptitude: 17, 27, 30, 120, 144

Arjuna: 64, 90, 91, 97, 109, 119, 121
brhmaa: 2, 3, 5-11, 14-16, 19, 24,

art: 11, 24, 29, 32, 33, 59, 68, 97, 25, 28, 31, 40-42, 46, 48, 50, 52,
53, 58, 59, 62, 66-69, 83, 87, 89, 90,
98, 102, 107, 145
106-111, 113, 115, 117-119, 124, 125,
artificial: 4, 6, 7, 21, 22, 24, 30, 41,
132-135, 137, 138, 143, 144-146
87, 88
birth: 17, 33, 97, 103, 105, 108, 109,
ryan: viii, 8, 76, 143
118, 123, 147
atheistic: iii, 33, 86, 104, 111, 124,
bless(ing): 27, 33, 85, 137
133, 144, 154
boarding: 8, 29
atmosphere: 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 23, 33,
Bollywood: 89
88, 94
book: v, vii, 3, 27, 30-32, 34, 45,
48, 59, 61, 62, 75, 83, 84, 87, 89,
Bhaspati: 84
90, 92, 93, 97, 99-102, 106, 115,
balance: 26, 30, 43, 71, 72, 127, 133 116, 119, 121, 122, 126, 127, 139, 143
avidy: iv, 74, 123, 124, 126, 127
168
Index
boys: 5, 6, 14, 22, 29, 55, 57, 68, comfort: 5, 7, 18, 22, 144
72, 93
commodity: 3, 137
Brahma-sahit: 32, 33, 97
communication: 54
brahminical: 9, 10, 15, 24, 29, 50,
community: 4, 9, 10, 12, 22, 30, 33,
61, 64, 68, 73, 105, 137
35, 47, 50, 53, 54, 59, 62-64, 78, 80,
buddhi-yoga: 64, 100
82, 86, 87, 90, 103, 105, 108, 109,
113, 120, 125, 126, 132, 133
budget: 4, 60
building: 2, 24, 26, 50, 146
bullock carts: 87
conditioning: iii, 9, 12, 13, 17, 19,

36, 53, 58, 68, 81, 110, 117, 133, 143,
144
business: 2, 3, 5, 14, 23, 47, 64, 50, contemplate: 49, 65, 72, 86, 104
51, 58, 67, 113, 129, 130, 137
corrupt: 85, 86, 87, 93
businessman: 48, 50, 58, 64, 85
cow: 8-12, 14, 30, 62, 81, 86, 104,
110, 119
C
Caitanya: 12, 31, 32, 77, 81, 82, 83, craft: 21, 24, 94, 97, 113, 118
105, 144
crisis: 26, 87, 94
calamities: viii, 12
culture: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29,
Cambodia: 1, 14, 26
31, 32, 50-53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, 77,
93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, 138,
Canada: 24
139
capitalism: 23, 87
curriculum: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20, 21,
celibate: 42, 45
22, 29, 31, 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69,
character: viii, 3, 23, 25, 26, 28, 31, 71, 73, 77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130,
136, 138, 139
34, 68, 82, 84, 89, 108, 137
charity: 42, 64, 66
Christian: 22, 70
Dalai Lama: 59
city: 5-7, 12-14, 25, 29, 33, 35, 48, Darwinism: 80

59, 62, 64, 94, 108, 116, 120, 127
death: vii, 17, 103, 109, 123, 147
169
demon(iac): 7, 14, 86, 90

design: iii, 3, 9, 29, 115, 117-119
economic: 63, 67, 79, 87, 103, 112,

development: 6, 15, 29, 40, 42, 43, 143, 144
47, 61, 78, 82, 84, 89, 97, 99, 100, enjoyer: 46, 55, 56, 57, 72
103, 111, 112, 124, 136, 138, 139,
essence: iv, 6, 25, 39, 41, 58, 67, 73,
140, 143, 144
82, 88, 93, 104, 145, 146
devotee: iii, vii, 2-13, 15, 18, 19, 22,
26, 30, 33-35, 40, 43-45, 49, 51, 52, eternal: iv, 1, 19, 23, 40, 66, 70, 97,
53, 55, 56, 58-66, 68, 70, 75, 79, 99, 100, 103, 117, 124, 135, 147
80-83, 85-90, 92-94, 99, 100, 102, etiquette: 71, 81, 138
106, 116, 126, 130-132, 134, 135,
138, 140, 145
F
devotional service: 4, 12-14, 18, 19, faith: 12, 32, 59, 60, 80, 88, 91, 94,
22, 31, 33, 36, 53, 71, 77, 81, 82, 88, 138
130, 134, 135, 139, 144
false ego: 46, 52, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60,
dharma: iv, v, vii, 12, 20, 30, 35, 123
36, 39, 40, 42, 64, 67, 77, 78, 80-82,
family: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 52,
85, 87, 92, 103, 105, 122, 126, 132,
59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, 113,
135, 140, 143, 144-147
119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146
direction: 3, 9, 10, 31, 47, 63, 78,
farm: 11, 14, 16, 23, 30, 32, 47, 62,
131
63, 64, 87, 94
disciple: 20, 31, 35, 61, 78, 82, 84,
female: 43, 48, 52, 55-57, 93
87, 89, 91-93, 131
feminine: 51, 52, 56-58
disposition: 3, 9, 15, 18, 27, 28, 31,
food: 2, 4, 8, 14, 26, 27, 45, 67, 82,
33, 107
87, 109, 125
dog: 12, 26, 41, 48, 82, 92, 104, 110,
130
G
draw: 56, 70, 129, 143
gaua: 104, 105
civilization: iii, viii, 33, 45, 62, 68, definition: iv, 3, 5, 9, 27, 34, 40, 42,
79, 81, 86, 83, 103, 118, 121, 130
143
duty: viii, 11, 22, 33, 35, 40, 42, 44, Gauya Maha: 133
47, 56, 58, 64, 66, 69, 72, 77, 80,
Gaura Kiora: 34
85, 100, 118, 119, 121, 122, 126, 132ghee: 10, 107, 110, 119
134, 144, 145
co-education: 5, 93
degrade: 13, 15, 26, 86, 124
dvija: 17, 28, 46, 105, 117
girl: 5, 6, 55, 65, 67, 93, 110
college: 5, 10, 11, 26, 112, 113
delivery: 3, 9, 29, 115
dynamic: 43, 55, 65, 72, 131, 140
gol: 35
170
Index
God: 21, 28, 30-32, 39, 40-42, 43, illiterate: 34, 123-125, 138, 139
45, 46, 49, 52-54, 56, 64, 66, 70,
illusion: 41
72, 74, 104, 105, 109, 110, 111, 113,
impersonal: 51, 59, 60, 143
114, 121, 129, 130, 147
Gosvm: 31, 32, 36, 74, 81, 83, India: iii, 5, 15, 23, 27, 39, 48, 50,
52-54, 60, 77, 82, 91, 97, 99, 106,
118, 126, 129, 134
125, 129, 143, 146
governments: viii, 4, 5, 20, 22, 60,
Indian: 27, 48, 52, 59, 60, 125
87
grammar: 55, 122, 139
Indonesia: iii, 22, 32
ghastha: 16, 18, 19, 41-47, 52, 67, infrastructure: 2, 14

68, 78, 88, 89, 92, 104, 133, 134
inspire: 20, 44, 56
guidance: 8, 11, 21, 27, 54, 64, 77, institution: iv, 2, 5, 10, 11, 16, 21,
78, 121
26, 40, 60, 83, 112, 124, 130, 133,
gurukula: iii, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 135, 136, 146
16, 17, 21, 24, 25, 28, 29, 52, 53, 64, intellectual: 15, 16, 17, 71, 83, 85
68, 69, 71, 93, 102, 126, 147
intention: 130
harmony: vii, 146

health: iv, 26, 88
interest: i, iv , v, 20-22, 24, 34, 50,

59, 63, 65, 67, 75, 98, 102, 112, 121,
135, 138, 149, 144
intoxicated: 13, 26
hell: 12, 45, 58, 87, 100, 130, 136,
ISKCON: 1-10, 12, 16, 27, 29, 30, 32,
138, 139
35, 49, 53-55, 58, 60, 63, 65, 78, 79,
holistic: vii, viii, 97
80-82, 86, 89-92, 99, 100, 120, 129,
holy name: 13, 30, 34, 80, 88, 99, 130, 131, 146
100, 105, 106, 110, 114, 145
J
husband: 6, 40, 43, 45, 48, 49, 52,
54, 56, 57, 80, 93, 131, 135
Jbla: 109, 118
I
jna: 1, 19, 27, 28, 69, 71, 72, 84,

85, 111, 123, 126, 134, 135, 143, 146
identity: 19, 30, 36, 42, 47, 51, 52,

58, 70, 74, 105, 106, 109-111, 113, job: 4, 5, 21, 62, 65, 82, 85, 112,
130, 134, 136
115, 117
ignorance: vii, 26, 29, 54, 74, 106, Kali-yuga: viii, 12, 26, 46, 47, 48,
51, 58, 116, 131, 145
107, 123, 124, 147
171
Lord: viii, 1, 6, 10-13, 18, 26, 31, 33,

35, 44, 45, 60, 63, 68, 71, 80, 82,
karma: 17, 28, 64, 69-71, 85, 88,
88, 90, 97, 98, 103, 105, 109, 119106
121, 132, 134, 135, 143-145
killing: 88, 147
love: 3, 9, 67, 85, 103, 111, 115, 130
Kolkota (Calcutta): 50, 116
lust: 13, 72, 83
Ka: iv, v, vii, viii, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7,
M
11-15, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 25, 27, 28,
30, 31, 33, 35, 36, 40-42, 44, 45, 47, macrocosm: viii
48, 53, 54-57, 59-62, 64, 67, 69-71,
78, 81, 83, 84, 86, 88-92, 94, 97, male: 43, 44, 48, 52, 55-58
100, 103, 107, 110, 111, 119, 121-124, manana: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50,
126, 129, 130-132, 134, 135, 138, 52, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109,
140, 143, 144, 147
113, 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146
katriya: 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 17, 19, 24, mantra: 59, 99, 119
29, 30, 40-42, 46, 48, 50, 52, 59,
62, 65, 66, 68, 69, 85, 86, 87, 89, Manu-sahit: 34, 40, 45, 66
90, 106-111, 115, 118, 119, 121, 124, market: 2, 78, 94, 113, 120, 136
134, 137, 143, 144, 146
marriage: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50,
52, 59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109,
L
land: 2, 7-12, 14, 35, 51, 60, 63, 79, 113, 119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146
86, 88, 102, 119
masculine: 46, 52, 56
language: iii, 41, 69, 98
math (arithmetic): 54, 65, 112,

leader: iv, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 24, 29, 32, 124, 138, 143
46, 48, 49, 50, 54, 58, 59, 61, 63, medicine: 112, 113, 116
85, 86, 106, 108, 131, 138, 146, 147
medium: 67
life: iv, vii, viii, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 13,
14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 23-26, 30, 32, 33, mentality: 3, 8, 27, 45, 60
42, 44, 45, 48, 49, 51, 52, 62, 67, mentor: 28
68, 73, 74, 77, 79, 80, 83, 85, 87,
method: viii, 21, 22, 27, 29, 69, 70,
90, 100, 102, 110, 112-116, 118, 125,
81, 98, 104, 105, 111, 116, 127, 142
127, 129-131, 134, 137, 140, 143,
microcosm: viii
144, 146, 147
lifelong: 17, 18, 30, 31
military: 4, 14, 72, 107, 108
lifestyle: viii, 6, 9, 10, 14, 23, 26, model: 10, 12, 80, 85, 87, 116, 126,
133
32, 33, 80, 86, 92
Index
modern: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, pedagogy: 20, 107, 113

31, 32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, perspective: 2, 19, 34, 43, 53, 70,
77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, 71, 90, 110, 119
138, 139
pesantren: iii
money: 5, 14, 23, 40, 45, 48, 50,
58, 60-64, 66, 74, 79, 82, 83, 86, phenomenal: 1, 3, 27, 143
87, 134, 137
politician: 47, 103
problem: 4-6, 8, 13, 18, 22, 23, 25, religion: vii, 21, 23, 25, 28, 39, 40,
33, 34, 43, 45, 47, 50, 52, 55, 58, 47, 59, 83, 103, 122, 135, 143, 145,
59, 60, 66, 78, 80, 87, 93, 100-103, 147
131, 147
respect: vii, 5, 15, 30, 41-43, 46,
progress: 18, 20, 35, 44, 47, 53, 74, 53, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 74, 80, 81,
77, 81, 86, 87, 88, 103, 105, 110, 123, 83, 86, 89, 115, 132, 137
126, 144
responsibility: 29, 34, 68, 80, 106,
172
mother: 9, 19, 31, 35, 51, 55, 57, 66, pollution: 12, 14, 26, 33, 88, 93, 115
67, 78, 109, 110
position: viii, 7, 15, 18, 22, 39, 40,
mukhya: 104, 105
41, 47, 49, 51-53, 55-58, 78, 86, 110,
114, 120, 124, 133, 134, 144, 147
naiik-brahmacr: 44
potency: 2, 12, 106, 116
Prabhupda: iv, v, vii, 1, 2, 6-15,

Nanda: 40, 63, 65
16, 18, 26-28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 42,
50, 59, 61, 67, 75, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83,
Nrada: 8, 35, 45, 84, 145
85-94, 99, 101-106, 109, 110, 115,
natural: viii, 2, 5-7, 9, 12, 14, 18-22, 116, 122, 123, 126, 127, 131-133, 139,
24, 28, 30, 32, 39, 46, 61, 63, 67, 69, 140, 144-147
71-73, 80, 83, 86, 91, 93, 103, 117,
practical: iii, 2, 4, 6, 10, 34, 36, 53137, 144, 146
55, 59, 62, 69, 78, 81, 89, 91, 93, 94,
nididhysana: 49, 72
98, 100, 101, 104, 105, 108, 115, 116,
135, 136, 139, 140, 146
niyamgraha: 101
prakti: 1
numinous: 1, 27, 143
Pratt, David: iii
prayojana: 19, 20, 27, 31, 39, 45, 69,

organize: vi, 22, 29, 30, 42, 48, 59, 73, 111, 134, 135, 146
64, 88, 133-135, 138
pressure: 5, 23, 112
principle: iv, vii, viii, 2, 9, 10, 11,
12, 13, 17, 20, 22, 23, 25, 27-32, 42,
paita: 17, 74
47-49, 52-55, 63-66, 72, 79, 81-85,
paradigm: 6, 22, 25, 85
87-89, 92, 100, 101, 103-105, 109,
parent: 5, 21, 22, 34, 42, 48, 49, 51, 110, 117, 126, 132, 134, 145, 146
52, 55, 56, 71, 84, 98, 109, 132, 138, priority: 107
139
priviledge: 33, 73, 117, 147, 118,
patience: 12
133, 137, 139
173
propensity: 11, 22, 73, 100, 103, 118, 133

107, 108, 111, 112, 113
revolution: 10, 35, 78, 87, 88, 106,
protection: 10, 14, 30, 55, 46, 48, 145
62, 66, 108, 138
RSS: 110
public: 21, 40,
purity: 28, 84, 98, 99, 100, 104,

sacrifice: 51, 64, 119, 125
105, 106
sadcra: 13
pursuit: iv, 9, 58, 67, 79, 143, 144
sdhu: 13, 15, 18, 33, 79
sahajiy: 15, 81
question: 4, 7, 28, 39, 49, 52, 77, 81, sakrtana: 13, 61, 83, 105
90, 104, 113, 115, 117, 120, 123, 136
Skhya: 1
R
Rdhr: 65
sannysa: 15, 16, 18, 19, 41, 44, 68,

82, 92, 111
rjari: 26, 143
sannys: 42, 43, 45, 46, 67, 92, 133
school: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, 31,

32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73, 77,
reaction: 12
93, 102, 111, 112, 113, 117, 130, 136,
read: v, vii, 5, 6, 8, 12, 14, 24, 30, 138, 139
34, 35, 46, 48, 59, 61, 84, 85, 93, saint: viii, 56, 66, 105, 117, 143
102, 109, 121, 123-126, 138, 139, 140
sambandha: 19, 20, 27, 39, 69, 70,
Readers Digest: 59
72, 73, 111, 134, 135, 146
reciprocate: 55, 56, 67
Santana: 40, 74, 81
relationship: 13, 19, 21, 23, 30, 39sandarbha: 129, 130, 134
43, 51, 53, 55, 56, 59, 60, 67, 68, 70,
71, 74, 80, 84, 85, 111, 129, 134, 135 Sanskrit: 26, 55, 62, 73, 74, 84
rasa: 51, 55, 56, 66
174
Index
stra: 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 17, 23, 29, 30-33, spiritual: iv, vii, viii, 1-6, 9, 13, 15,
53, 79, 80, 84, 85, 89, 98, 101, 103, 16, 18-20, 22, 24-30, 32, 33, 35, 36,
122, 125-127, 145
40, 45, 54, 66, 67, 74, 77-79, 81,
88, 104-107, 111, 117, 122, 123, 124,
scholars: 82-84, 143
127, 129-131, 133, 134, 136, 138, 139,
science: iii, iv , 3, 24, 29, 32, 39, 41, 143-146
47, 48, 51, 58, 59, 63, 64, 73, 81, 91,
ravaa: 13, 49, 72
98, 99, 105, 114, 115, 120, 122, 123,
rmad-Bhgavatam: v, vii, 8, 12,
124, 125, 143, 145, 146
13, 15, 26, 33, 35, 45, 77, 78, 79, 81,
scripture: 2, 3, 12, 26, 41, 42, 74,
82, 84, 93, 102, 129, 131, 138, 140,
84, 98, 99, 107, 113, 118, 126, 138,
145, 146, 147
144, 145
ruti: 122, 124, 145
secular: viii, 10
standard: 6, 8, 10, 13, 15, 18, 21, 28,
security: 30, 54
30, 46, 73, 80, 81, 92, 102, 105, 106,
self-realization: iv, 1, 3, 17, 22, 28, 110, 112, 114, 126, 127, 131, 146
30, 31, 34, 74, 85, 115, 124
stress: viii, 23, 26
sense control: 18, 82, 84, 104, 105
student: iv, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 14, 16,

servant: iii, 14, 19, 42, 55, 57, 80, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31,
32, 33, 34, 53, 62, 68-73, 82, 85, 89,
129, 133, 138
90, 98, 100, 112, 115, 129, 130, 137,
sex: 26, 48, 82, 83, 92
138, 146, 147
simple: viii, 2, 6, 10, 13, 21, 24, 34, submissive: 25, 28, 43, 46, 52, 54,
47, 53, 60, 68, 90, 93, 98, 119, 131, 65, 72, 80, 93, 115
138, 139, 146
dra: 7, 8, 11, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20, 24,
sincere: i, 34, 62, 73, 75, 77, 84, 89, 26, 29, 30, 35, 40-42, 46, 47, 50-52,
106, 131, 132
55, 58, 62, 66-68, 83, 85, 110-112,
situation: 6, 10, 12, 13, 17, 19, 21, 115, 117-119, 121, 124, 125, 134, 136,
23, 44, 45, 48, 55, 57, 62, 64, 65, 139
73, 86, 88, 104, 105, 110, 115, 131, surrender: 43, 56, 64, 80, 84, 103,
144, 146
129, 131, 135, 147
skill: iv, 3, 6, 15, 17, 24, 54, 68, 70, system: iii, iv, vii, 2-8, 12, 15, 16,
97, 138
18, 20-22, 24, 25, 29, 30, 35, 40, 48,
53, 54, 64, 66, 69-73, 82, 84, 85,
slaughterhouse: 26, 109, 146
88-92, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 111,
socioloy: iv, 12, 83
112, 118, 120, 122-124, 126, 130,
132, 133, 135, 137, 144, 146
sophist: iii
175
Vaiava: 6, 15, 18, 30, 59, 81, 83,

84, 88, 89, 93, 109, 116, 143, 144,
teach: iii, 3, 5, 8, 15, 20-22, 29, 31,
146
32, 50, 51, 53, 62, 68, 69, 71, 73,
77, 93, 102, 111-113, 117, 130, 136, Vaiav: 6
138, 139
Vaiavism: 15, 19, 83
teacher: iv, 2-6, 9, 11, 16, 21, 22,
24, 25, 27-29, 31, 33, 52, 53, 69, 71, vaiya: 7, 8, 11, 14, 17, 19, 29, 30,
72, 85, 89, 90, 113-115, 118, 130- 40, 41, 42, 46, 48, 50, 51, 52, 58,
59, 62, 63, 64, 66, 68, 85, 89, 90,
132, 137-139
106, 108, 111, 115, 118, 119, 124,
technocrat: iv
134, 136
technology: iii, 4, 5, 98, 99, 115- vnaprastha: 18, 19, 41, 42, 44-47,
117, 121
88, 111, 133
teenage: 5, 72
Vednta: iv, 71, 122, 123, 134, 143,
temple: 10, 29, 33, 47, 49, 58, 60, 147
61, 63, 64, 66, 87, 92, 98, 99, 120, Vedas: viii, 41, 48, 62, 70, 118, 119,
121, 134
122, 132, 145
temporary: iv, viii, 16, 18, 41, 77, Vedic: vii, vii, 2, 3, 5-8, 10, 14, 18,
97, 98, 100, 103, 104, 114, 120, 124 20-24, 27-30, 32, 33, 39-41, 54, 59,
tax: 87
62, 65, 69-72, 77, 80, 81, 83, 84-86,

89, 90, 92, 100-102, 104, 105, 108,
thorn: 44, 143
110, 111, 113, 115, 118, 121-123, 126,
topic: viii, 5, 10, 16, 35, 73, 74, 77, 130, 134, 143-147
83, 90, 94, 97, 100, 115, 129, 130
vegetarian: 109, 110
traditional: i, iii, 4, 8, 9, 10, 23, 24,
25, 27, 29, 31, 32, 48, 59, 70, 71, 73, vidy: 1, 34, 97, 110, 114, 122-124,
85, 87, 93, 101, 102, 113, 115, 124, 146
126, 133, 136, 137, 138, 144, 145
villages: 6, 27, 36, 48, 62, 64, 65,
119
theory: 10, 54, 99, 112, 145
updi: 97
viaya: 56, 57
upakurvaa-brahmacr: 44
violence: 26
Upaniad: 97, 114, 118
vraja-vs: 55
urban: 9, 33
Vysadeva: 84
176
W
West: 5, 52, 59, 60, 73, 78, 81, 82,
86, 87, 92, 94, 124
wife: 6, 21, 30, 44, 46, 49, 50, 52,
59, 61, 63, 64, 74, 93, 108, 109, 113,
119, 120, 130, 131, 135, 146
woman: 5-7, 19, 31, 43, 44, 46, 48,
51-58, 60, 73, 80, 86, 90, 92-94,
108, 118, 139
world: vii, viii, 4, 10, 12, 19, 22, 24,
26, 30, 33, 36, 39-41, 48, 53, 57, 59,
60, 62, 63, 66-68, 70, 78, 81-83, 85,
87, 99, 105, 110, 114, 120, 122, 129,
131, 134, 136, 139, 140, 144-147
worship: 10, 13, 80, 86, 120, 132,
144
write: 6, 34, 61, 70, 84, 85, 87, 108,
116, 121-125, 138, 140
Y
Yaod: 40, 43, 55-57, 65
yaja: 41, 89, 132
yoga: 64, 98, 130
Z
zeitgeist: 93
177
Varrama BookTrust
MakeVndvanaVillages
In Support of Varrama Dharma

This was the first book of His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Swami,
published in 2007. The second and enlarged edition was printed in
2010. This book elucidates the four-fold strategy to respiritualize the
entire world given by rla Prabhupda in his Essay on Gt-nagar,
and underlines the role that daiva-varrama-dharma is to play in
that revolution. This book also urges the devotees to take up simple
living and high thinking and develop devotional villages sustained
by farming and cow protection. The book is available in several
languages: English, French, Spanish, Bahasa, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu,
Hindi, and Kannada.
Varrama Education
In Support of Traditional Education

This is the second book of His Holiness Bhakti Rghava
Swami, published in 2008. This book reveals the interconnection
between Vedic education and varrama-dharma and gives an
overview of the basic principles of both.
Overhaul and Revert
Promoting the Varrama Mission

This book published in 2010 assembles many references on
varrama-dharma from rla Prabhupdas words, mainly the
Bhagavad-gt and rmad-Bhgavatam purports. The work, compiled
and commented by rmn Rmnanda Rya Dsa (BRS), points
to the defects of our misdirected society from a Ka conscious
point of view. It calls for a return to the values and lifestyle of Vedic
culture.
TheFourthWave
Published in 2010, this is a collection of eleven articles on
daiva-varrama-dharma by His Holiness Bhakti Rghava Swami,
compiled in a book by rmat Vndvana Ll Dev Ds (BRS).
www.iskconvarnasrama.org
178
179
180

Traditional Education

Enviado por

Dados do documento

Direitos autorais

Formatos disponíveis

Compartilhar este documento

Compartilhar ou incorporar documento

Opções de compartilhamento

Você considera este documento útil?

Este conteúdo é inapropriado?

Direitos autorais:

Formatos disponíveis

Traditional Education

Enviado por

Direitos autorais:

Formatos disponíveis

Table of Content

2010 by Varrama Book Trust (VBT) All Rights Reserved

Interview of Bhakti Rghava Swami

Interview of Bhakti Vidy Pra Swami

Lecture by Bhakti Vika Swami

Interview of tmatattva Dsa

Interview of Gopparadhana Dsa

Conclusion by Bhakti Rghava Swami

List & Index of the Interview Questions

Interested readers may write to the publisher at:

Varrama Book Trust (VBT)

Persons interested in this subject matter are invited to read the

Bhakti Rghava Swami

Bhakti Rghava Swami: rla Prabhupda mentioned that if we

Bhagratha Dsa: Your Holiness mentioned that real education is

Bhagratha Dsa: And education within our own society?

Bhakti Rghava Swami

be done, or lament about the difficulty of its implementation, but

Bhakti Rghava Swami: Yes, it is true that there are inherent

3. What are the weaknesses in the modern educational system?

The problem is that we are not applying the system of varrama,

Bhakti Rghava Swami: Modern education focuses on speculative,

Bhakti Rghava Swami

suffer its complexities. We may feel that we need to maintain the

4. What weaknesses plague ISKCON, would you say, in relation to its

Bhakti Rghava Swami

devotees are of the opinion that it is not so relevant or important.

promotes brahminical culture; brhmaas who are thus maintained

Another weakness is what we could call dra phobia

5. What are the remedies for rectifying our shortcomings in education?

Bhakti Rghava Swami

In order for this revolution to take place, rla Prabhupda

The Bhaktivedanta College in Belgium, and the Rpnuga College,

6. What are the pillars of a varrama society?

Bhakti Rghava Swami

7. Can varrama communities be established in our present, modern

is because we are constantly exposing ourselves to my! To a large

Bhakti Rghava Swami: Yes, because varrama is the natural

sdhu-saga nma-krtana bhgavata-ravaa

accurate lifestyle and teaches human interaction. It has a very

Bhakti Rghava Swami

9. Why did rla Prabhupda instruct, First vara, then rama?

Bhakti Rghava Swami

cryas introduce the culture depending upon the need of their

without speaking about education, and vice versa. If we plan for

10. What is the relationship between varrama and education?

Bhagratha Dsa: What do you mean by varrama is itself an

Bhakti Rghava Swami

should advance spiritually. Arama addresses spiritual education in

11. Please elaborate the concepts of sambandha-jna, abhideya, and

Bhakti Rghava Swami

sdhana. Our cryas teach that we cannot jump to bhva-bhakti

12. The concept of compulsory education, whereby children are

Bhakti Rghava Swami

group of parents organize home schooling within their community,

times, the principles enshrined in the Vedic culture are no longer

13. Please briefly outline the differences between what is called

Bhakti Rghava Swami

On the other hand, the gurukula, the traditional formal system of

of the educators are now sensing the need to reintroduce spiritual

Bhakti Rghava Swami

The pitfall is that educators do not understand what education is. In

To not send students to that kind of environment, whether our

15. What are the pillars of education?