The Rise of America's Secret Government: The

Deadly Legacy of Ex-CIA Director Allen Dulles

Democracy Now! | October 13, 2015
Its been more than 50 years since Allen Dulles resigned as director of the CIA, but his legacy lives on.
Between 1953 and 1961, under his watch, the CIA overthrew the governments of Iran and Guatemala,
invaded Cuba, and was tied to the killing of Patrice Lumumba, Congos first democratically elected leader.
We speak with David Talbot, author of "The Devils Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of
Americas Secret Government," about how Dulles time at the CIA helped shape the current national security
state.

TRANSCRIPT
AMY GOODMAN: Its been over half a century since Allen Dulles resigned as director of the CIA, but his
legacy lives on. Between 1953 and '61, under his watch, the CIA overthrew the governments of Iran and
Guatemala, invaded Cuba, was tied to the killing of Patrice Lumumba, Congo's first democratically elected
leader.
A new biography of Allen Dulles looks at how his time at the CIA helped shape the current national security
state. Biographer David Talbot writes, quote, "The Allen Dulles story continues to haunt the country. Many
of the practices that still provoke bouts of American soul-searching originated during Dulless formative rule
at the CIA." Talbot goes on to write, "Mind control experimentation, torture, political assassination,
extraordinary rendition, mass surveillance of U.S. citizens and foreign alliesthese were all widely used
tools of the Dulles reign."
Well, David Talbot joins us now to talk about his new book, The Devils Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA,
and the Rise of Americas Secret Government. Hes the founder and former CEO and editor-in-chief of
Salon. David Talbot is also author of the best-seller, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years.
Its great to have you with us, David.
DAVID TALBOT: Great to be here, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: What an astounding book. Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdenhow do they relate to
Allen Dulles, the longest-reigning CIA director?
DAVID TALBOT: Well, as I write in the book and as you just pointed out, all the practices that we are
wrestling with as a country now, the intelligence and security measuresincluding, I might add, the legacy
of the killing fields in Central America that your guest was just discussing, in Guatemala and so onthat all
had its roots, not after 9/11, but during the Dulles era and the Cold War. He was a man who felt he was
above the law. He felt that democracy was something that should not be left in the hands of the American
people or its representatives. He was part of what the famous sociologist from the 1950s, C. Wright Mills,
called the power elite. And he felt that he and his brother and those types of people should be running the
country.
AMY GOODMAN: John Foster Dulles, secretary of state.
DAVID TALBOT: Exactly. They were a dynamic duo, of course: His brother, Foster, as he was known, was
secretary of state, as you say, under Eisenhower; he was the head of the CIA. It was a one-two punch.

AMY GOODMAN: Lets go to Allen Dulles in his own words, speaking in 1965, defending the actions of
the CIA.
ALLEN DULLES: The idea that it is necessarily nefarious, its always engaged in overthrowing
governments, thats false. Thats for the birds. Now, there are timesthere are times when the United States
government feels that the developments in another government, such as in the Vietnam situation, is of a
nature to imperil thethe safety and the security and the peace of the world, and asks the Central
Intelligence Agency to be its agent in that particular situation. ... At no time has the CIA engaged in any
political activity or any intelligence activity that was not approved at the highest level.
AMY GOODMAN: Thats Allen Dulles in 1965. "At no time," he says. So, talk about the history, that is so
intimately connected to us today. Often countries that have beentheir leaders have been overthrown, know
this history in a way that Americans dont know.
DAVID TALBOT: Thats right.
AMY GOODMAN: 53, 54, go through it.
DAVID TALBOT: And, of course, Allen Dulles was a consummate liar and was, you know, very adept at
manipulating the media, the American media. That particular interview was one of the ones that actually he
got posed some of the tougher questions, by John Chancellor of NBC News. And he actually went on to say,
"You know, I try to let the Congress know what Im doing," when Chancellor asked him, "Is there any
political oversight of the CIA?" "But whenever I go to Congress," he says, and he starts to tell the secrets of
the CIA, members of Congress would say, "No, no, no, we dont want to know. We dont want to talk in our
sleep." So that, of course, was his cover.
Yes, overthrowing governments at willI think one of the more tragic stories I tell in the book is the story
of Patrice Lumumba, who was this young, charismatic leader, the hope of African nationalism in the Congo.
And he was overthrown by a CIA-backed military coup in the Congo and later captured and brutally
assassinated. The CIAs story before the Church Committee in the 1970s: "Oh, we tried to kill him, we tried
to poison him, but were the gang that cant shoot straight. Were not very good at assassinations." Well,
they were far too modest. In fact, we now know that the people who beat Patrice Lumumba to death, once he
was captured, were on the payroll of the CIA.
Now, Allen Dulles kept that fact from John F. Kennedy for over a month. John Kennedy, when he was
running for president, was known as the advocate, a supporter of African nationalism. They knew that once
John Kennedy was inauguratedthe CIAand was in office, that he would help Lumumba, who was in
captivity at that point. And I believe that his execution, his murder, was rushed before Kennedy could get in
the White House. They then withheld that information from the president for over a month. So the CIA was
defying presidents all the time, and particularly in the case of Kennedy, who they felt was young, they could
manipulate, and they didnt need to really bring into their confidence.
AMY GOODMAN: So you have the CIA running international intelligence, and theyre keepingwell,
you say keeping from. What makes you believe that Kennedy didnt know?
DAVID TALBOT: That he didnt know about the murder? Well, theres a famous picture that was taken of
him in the White House as hes getting the phone call fromnot from the CIA, but from U.N. Ambassador
Adlai Stevenson, who finally tells him, a month after Lumumba has been buried and dead, about this terrible
murder. And his face, as you see from this famous photograph by Jacques Lowe, the White House
photographer, is crumpled in agony. I think this shows all the terrible sorrow thats to come in the Kennedy
presidency. And, you know, a lot of people think that the war between Kennedy and the CIA began after the
Bay of Pigs invasion, the CIAs disastrous operation in Cuba. That is true, it became particularly, I think,
aggravated after that. But you can see from this, from day one, even before he was inaugurated, the CIA was
defying him.

AMY GOODMAN: 1953, go back a few years. What is the relevance of what the Dulles brothers did in
Iran with what we are seeing today in U.S.-Iranian relations?
DAVID TALBOT: Well, again, these terrible historical ripples continue from the Dulles era. Iran was trying
to throw off the yoke of British colonialism. Britain, through British Petroleum, the company now known as
British Petroleum, controlled all of Irans oil resources. And under the leadership of Mosaddegh, this popular
leader who was elected by his people, he began to push back against British control and, as a result,
antagonized Western oil interests, including the Dulles brothers. The Dulles brothers power originally came
from their law firm, Sullivan & Cromwell, the most powerful law firm on Wall Street, and they represented
a number of oil companies. So, once the Western oil interests were antagonized by Mosaddeghs attempt to
reclaim sovereignty over these oil resources, his days were numbered.
And so, the task of overthrowing him was given to the CIA, given to Allen Dulles. There was a very volatile
situation, people supporting Mosaddegh in the streets versus the CIA-supported forces. The Shah, who was
the puppet, of course, ruler of Iran on the Peacock Throne, flees, because hes not a particularly brave man.
He flees to Rome. Dulles flies to Rome. Hes busy shopping, the Shah, enjoying his exile with his glamorous
wife. And Dulles is given the job of putting a little lead in his spine and getting the Shah to return to Iran
after they finally succeed, the CIA, in overthrowing the popular leader, Mosaddegh.
Well, after that, that begins a reign of horror then in Iran. Democratic elements, the left, Communist Party
are rounded up, tortured. And the Shah is installed in this terrible autocratic regime, that, of course, we
know, had a terrible downfall during the Carter administration. And were still paying the price for the
bitterness that the Iranian people feel towards the United States for intervening in their sovereign interests.
AMY GOODMAN: And the U.S. would go onthe Dulles brothers would go on to do the very same thing
the next year, 1954, in Guatemala?
DAVID TALBOT: Thats right. They were on a roll. They thought they could do anything, exert their will
anywhere in the world. Jacobo rbenz, again, a popular, democratic leader, elected in Guatemala
AMY GOODMAN: We only have 10 seconds in this portion.
DAVID TALBOT: The Kennedy of Guatemala is overthrown, again, by the Dulles brothers, partly because
they were representatives of United Fruit. United Fruit was a major power player in Guatemala.
AMY GOODMAN: Were going to leave it there, but were going to do Part 2, and were going to post it
online. David Talbot is author of the new book, The Devils Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise
of Americas Secret Government. David Talbot is founder and editor-in-chief at Salon.