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1 2 3 4 5 6 THE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 SUSAN BYSIEWICZ April 5, 2010 OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT AS IT MAY CONTAIN UNTRANSLATES AND MISTRANSLATES WHICH WILL BE CORRECTED IN THE FINAL VERSION. ROUGH DRAFT PURPOSES ONLY. NOT TO BE USED AS

19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Bethany A. Carrier, LSR. Brandon Smith Reporting Service (860) 549-1850

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(The deposition commenced at 12:05 pm.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: April 5th, 2010. p.m.

The date today is

We're going on the record at 12:06

The case is Bysiewicz versus DiNardo, the

Connecticut Democratic Party, the Connecticut Office of the Secretary of State, filed in the Superior Court of Hartford. The name of the witness today is Susan This deposition is

Bysiewicz, and this is volume 2.

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being held at Gersten, Clifford and Rome, 214 Main Street, Hartford, Connecticut. My name is Jacob The

Brandon from Brandon Smith Reporting & Video.

court reporter is Bethany Carrier from Brandon Smith Reporting & Video. Counsel will now state their appearances for the record, please after which the court reporter will swear in the witness. MR. HORTON: plaintiff. MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: Perry Zinn Rowthorn Wesley W. Horton for the

from the office of the attorney general on behalf of the secretary of state's office. MR. REYNOLDS: Connecticut Democratic Party. MR. GERSTEN: My name is Eliot Gersten. Kevin Reynolds from

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I represent the republican party.

And in the room

also we have two people, Allison Dodge from the democratic party. party. She's representing the democratic

And his eminence Robert Martino, and you're

here on behalf of whom? MR. MARTINO: campaign. MR. GERSTEN: the campaign -MR. MARTINO: MR. GERSTEN: MR. HORTON: Friends of Susan 2010. Thanks. And I would ask that we And the campaign would be I'm here on behalf of the

proceed without a lunch break so that this deposition can be over with by 5:00. And secondly, my client

would like to correct two items of her testimony from last Thursday. MR. GERSTEN: witness. Can we first swear in the

(Witness

sworn.)

BY MR. GERSTEN:

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Q

Madam Secretary, have you had a chance to

review the deposition that you had take place? A I had a chance to reflect further on items

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that were discussed in the deposition and I would like to correct two things. Q Okay. My question was whether you had a

chance to actually review the -- a copy of the transcript of the deposition? A Q No. And you indicated that notwithstanding that

lack of review, you'd like to make some corrections to your testimony? A Q Yes. What is the first item, just topic wise, if

you could be kind enough to tell us what you're referring to?

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A

A question with respect to the Ryan McKeen

blog post and my response to that. Q Okay. And what was the second topic that you

wanted to have a chance to correct? A Q An item with respect to David Killain. We'll come back to both of those. MR. HORTON: Wouldn't it be appropriate

for her to correct the record now. MR. GERSTEN: questions, Wes. I really don't have any

If she wants to make a speech, she'll But I'm

get a chance you when you ask her questions.

just conduct ago series of questions STENOMARK.

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BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Do you have any -- and besides -- never mind. Now, the first question I'm going to ask you,

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some of this is going to go back some other materials I'm going to try to make it as short as possible but in connection with your resume, you indicated that you worked for a period of time at Robinson & Cole. recall that? A Q Yes. You have indicated in the past that you Do you

thought that was four years, correct? A Q Yes. And in our deposition you indicated it could

have been less than four years? A Q I didn't review the exact dates. Fair enough. Now, while you were at Robinson

& Cole, didn't you take a leave of absence to work on a political campaign? A Q that. I did. Richard Blumenthal's campaign.

And how long was your leave of absence strike Was your leave of absence approximately six

months out of the term that you worked at Robinson & Cole? A I'm not certain of the exact time period but

it was for a series of months.

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Q A Q

Didn't you actually move down to Stamford? I did not. You didn't. Okay. You -- however, were you

practicing law while you were working on Mr. Blumenthal's campaign? A Q I was working on the campaign. And my question is: Were you practicing law

while you were working on the campaign? A Q No. Okay. And ma'am, would I be correct when you

said you don't recall the exact time, as you sit here today, it was an extended period of time you took a leave of absence, correct? A Q For a period of months, yes. And despite the fact that you took that leave

of absence, you're counting that within your time frame of saying I was practicing law while at Robinson &

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Cole, correct? A Q Because I took a leave of absence, yes. But during the period of time that you took a

leave of absence you just told us I wasn't practicing law? A Q Correct. So wouldn't it be fair to say that whatever

period of time that you spent on the campaign with Mr.

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Blumenthal should be deducted from your time period that you say I was practicing law qualify for the senate, correct? A Q a lawyer. A My opinion is I've been a lawyer practicing That's a legal conclusion. Okay. What's your opinion about it? You're

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law for 24 years. Q In your counting the time of 24 years, are

you counting the time period that you worked not practicing law on the campaign of Richard Blumenthal? A Can you ask that question again. MR. GERSTEN: her please, Bethany? Can you read it back to

(The testimony was read.)

A

I have been a lawyer since I graduated from That's the

law school and past R passed the bar exam. time I'm counting. Q Okay.

Is it your testimony today that

whatever time period you've been as a lawyer should count towards your time period is satisfying the requirement that you be an active practice of law? A Absolutely.

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Q

Were you engaged in the active practice of

law while you were on a leave of absence from Robinson & Cole and working on the Dick Blumenthal campaign? A I was working on the campaign, but again

we're going to legal conclusions. MR. GERSTEN: read back? Can I have my question

I'm not sure she understood it.

(The testimony was read.)

A

Again, this goes back to the legal question,

which is at the crux of this lawsuit. Q ma'am? A Q The answer is yes. Okay. So you are in fact counting the time Are you saying you can't answer the question,

period that you were on a leave of absence from Robinson & Cole and you worked on Dick Blumenthal's campaign when you were not actively practicing law? I correct? A Yes. Am

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Q

And when you were employed at Robinson &

Cole, who did you report to? A Q Alvin Thompson. Okay. And when you were employed at the

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Aetna, 578 I correct, ma'am, you were also an elected official? A Q Yes. Can we go back. Alvin Thompson was your

correct report while you were at Robinson & Cole? A Q A Q Yes, sir. During the entire time period? Yes, sir. Okay. And when you were on your leave of

absence working on the Blumenthal campaign, were you reporting to Alvin Thompson as your direct

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supervisor? A Q No. Now, when you were at the Aetna, who was your

direct supervisor? A Q A care unit. Q Okay. And when you were employed at the Mel, I can't think of his last name. Okay. What did he do?

He was the head of the pension and health

Aetna, were you also serving as a state legislator? A Q Yes. Which of those two positions was the

full-time job you occupied during that time period? A My position with Aetna.

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Q

How often would you spend time strike that.

Did you spend five days a week at the Aetna during your

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entire time period? A Q I believe I went most every day. Did you spend the bulk of your day at the

office at the Aetna? A Q I believe so. Okay. Now, did you also serve as a state

legislator when you were employed at the Aetna? A Q I did. And how much time did you spend as a state

legislator while you were at the Aetna? A I think it depended when the legislature was It doesn't -- the legislature is not in

in session.

session all year. Q Let's go over your best recollection the

amount of time you spent at the legislature while you were employed at the Aetna at your first year at the Aetna, how much time did you spend serves as a state legislature? A session. Aetna. Q Okay. So when you were in the session at the While you were in session at the Well, if I had a session, I would attend the If I didn't, I would go to my job at the

Aetna, strike that.

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legislature, did you spend a full day at the legislature? A If I had a full day of session, yes; if not,

I went to my job at the Aetna. Q And it's true that's the way you would

describe how you spent your time during both years that you were at the Aetna? A Q I believe so. And would I be correct ma'am that the state

legislature meets for five months a year? A Q Generally speaking. And would I be correct that when you were When you

involved with having your -- strike that.

were serving time at the state legislature, you were not spending time at the Aetna?

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A

If I had a session, then I would be in

session at the legislature, in F not, I would be at the Aetna. Q Okay. And when you were at the Aetna, I

think I've seen your resume, you've indicated you worked on pension and health care work? A Q Yes. Prior to going to the Aetna, what experience

had you had in the pension and health care area? A My -- none.

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Q A

Thank you. Or limited, I would say. I'd actually like

to expand on that, if I may.

I did do health -- some

health care work at Robinson & Cole because one of the firms clients was the Connecticut Health and Educational Facilities Authority, CHEFA. And so we did

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do some work with respect to hospital financings. Q And what you're calling the work doing

health -- let me see, I'll restate that. Are you indicating today that the work you did on hospital financing is the same kind of work that you worked on when you were at the Aetna doing pension and what was the other health care work? A Q hospitals? A Q No. So other than your experiences at Robinson & Uh-huh. Were they the same? You did financings for

Cole working on hospital financing, you had not worked on any pension or health care related work while you were at Robinson & Cole before arriving at the Aetna; is that correct? A Q Yes. And did you take any leave of absence from

the Aetna similar to the one you took while you were

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employed at Robinson & Cole? A Q No. And when you worked at the Aetna then I

presume the Aetna was aware that you had become a state legislator and you would not be available to work at the Aetna during the time period that the legislature was in session? A Q Yes. And as you sit here today, ma'am, are you

able to recollect and tell us precisely how long you actually did remain employed at the Aetna? A Q I don't have the dates in front of me. Okay. So you'd need some records to refresh

your recollection? A Q A Q Yes. ? Or look at my buying graph fee. The only thing you would be able to rely on

yourself is to look at your biography?

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A

Or any kind of employment records and I don't

have them here. Q Okay. Now, you talked much the last time Do you recall

about having some volunteer lawyers. that? A Yes.

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Q

In fact, Mr. Martino who is here today on

behalf of your campaign is one of those volunteer lawyers, correct? A Q A Q A works. Q Okay. When -- how do you know him? Yes. Who is Kevin Murphy? He is a prosecutor. Okay. And where is he located? I'm not sure where he

He lives in Berlin.

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A

I know him from his membership on the

democratic down committee in Berlin and I know him as a democratic state central committee member. Q correct? A Q A Q A Yes. Is he a member of your volunteer lawyers? Yes. And who is Ted Dolittle? Ted Dolittle was my treasurer and -- for our Okay. Now, so he's a state employee, am I

campaign, and Ted Dolittle is also a volunteer attorney. Q A Q And where is he employed? Health net, I believe. Okay. And in fact, Kevin Murphy was one of

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the individuals who participated in drafting a response to Ryan McKeen, am I correct? A He did not participate in the drafting. He

sent me an e-mail with an opinion. Q And what was that opinion?

(Jennifer O'Neill entered the deposition.)

A

That he believed I am engaged in the active

practice of law. Q opinion. opinion? A Q The practice book. Okay. Is he the one who gave you that So you have a prosecutor sending you this Did he give you any kind of authority for his

section of the practice book that you inserted into the Ryan McKeen response you prepared? A I can't recall because there were many people

who brought that particular practice book section to my attention. Q Okay. Well, we know one of them is sitting

here today Mr. Martino? A Yes.

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Q

Now you've identified Mr. Murphy.

Can you

identify any others who brought that particular section

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of the practice book to your attention? A There may have been others. We were -- our

campaign was receiving a huge number of unsolicited communications from people who wanted to be helpful. Q But you indicated that you got that from a Could you identify any of the other

number of people.

people who you are referring to? A The two that come immediately to mind are Bob

Martino and Kevin Murphy. Q Okay. You've already mentioned those, and I

made it very clear I got it from a number of other sources. A Q Who else? Maybe perhaps David Makerwicz. Okay. Anyone else? STENOMARK?

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A Q

I'm not sure. Okay. And now I understand then Mr. Murphy

provided this to you in an e-mail? A I -- either that or a phone conversation. We

also had a phone conversation. Q Okay. You were pretty explicit that I

received an e-mail from Mr. Kevin Murphy? A Q e-mail? A He sent it to my campaign. Uh-huh. And where were you when you got that

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Q

Okay.

And where were you -- were you at the

campaign when you received it? A Well, I receive e-mails at the campaign, so I

read it when I was at the campaign.

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ones?

Q

Now, you've mentioned this volunteer lawyers

a number of times and what I'm now going to ask you is: Are there any other volunteer lawyers that you consult with? A Q Those are the main ones. Okay. Are there others besides the main

A Q A Q

My husband. Anyone else? Richard Orr. I think we covered him the last time. Anyone

else besides those? A Q That's all I can think of at the moment. Okay. Do any of these volunteer lawyers have

any kind of engagement period -- engagement letter with you? A Q A Q A Not a formal letter. Okay. No. Okay. No. Is there a letter? Is there an informal letter?

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Q

So would I be correct ma'am in saying that

not one of the individuals you have identified as volunteer lawyers have a written engagement letter with you? A Q A Q A Q No. I'm not correct? Oh, there's no letter. Thank you. You are correct. And just by way of reference, how often do

you and Mr. Murphy exchange communications? A We had that one e-mail that I mentioned, and

we have a group of volunteer lawyers that meet periodically. Q Okay. And how often do you and Mr. Dolittle

exchange communications? A Frequently or infrequently, depending on

what's happening.

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Q

Okay.

And when you use the word frequently, How many times a

what would you say that equates to? week? A Q Several. Okay.

And when you say several,

unfortunately I'm trying to get a qualification indication as opposed to a subjective view. Are you

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talking about meeting with Mr. Dolittle more than five times a week? MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: question. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Do you have meetings with Mr. Dolittle I object to form. I'll restate my

STENOMARK more than five times a week?

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A Q

No. Okay. How often more than two times a

A Q it down. A Q

Are you asking about face-to-face meetings? I'll start with a face-to-face. We'll break

We don't meet face-to-face every week. Okay. How often do you meet face-to-face

with Mr. Dolittle? A Q Perhaps once every two weeks. Okay. Now, I take it then in addition to

meeting with Mr. Dolittle once every two weeks face-to-face, you have a series of communications with him that are in writing or verbal? A Q Mainly verbal. Okay. How often do you and Mr. Dolittle

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A Q

Perhaps a couple of times a week. Okay. When you say a couple times, are you

referring to being twice a week or more often than twice a week? A Q A Q Could be two, could be more. It's at least two? I think it depends. Okay. Over the period of the past month, how

often would you and Mr. Dolittle talk? A Q A Q We're talking about the month of March. Month of March. I would say a couple of times a week. Okay. Is that at least two times a week,

ma'am or more? A Q About two. Okay. Now, Mr. Martino, the fellow who's

sitting here, can you tell me how often you and Mr. Martino spoke over the past week? A Q A Q Couple of times. Okay. Is that more than two?

Could be. Are you guessing?

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A Q

I'm not certain.

I don't keep track.

Is it your testimony over the past week you

spoke to Mr. Martino no more than two times?

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MR. HORTON:

Objection.

She didn't say

I said approximately.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Okay. And would it be greater than two or

more than -- less than two? A Q I'm not certain. So you can't recall how many times you and

Mr. Martino talked over the past week, other than to say it could be at least twice? A Q Yes. Good. And how often have you and Mr. Martino

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met in person over the past week? A Q We haven't. Okay. And do you know why -- I presume did

you ask Mr. Martino to be present today? A Q Yes. Okay. And do you know why you wanted to have

him present today? A Because there were campaign people here from

the other side of the aisle. Q A Okay. And who are you referring to?

Mr. Healy and Ms. O'Neill. MR. HORTON: I object. I just want to

clarify.

I assume you're talking about meeting with

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him before today you're not talking about today? you are, clarify.

If

Because obviously it's a meeting. You can clarify it.

MR. GERSTEN:

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BY MR. GERSTEN: Q So you're not indicating that Mr. Martino is

here representing you, Susan Bysiewicz, the plaintiff, that's Mr. Horton's job, right? A Q apologize. Correct. Now, Mr. -- I'll butcher this name and I

(Recess:

12:33 pm to 12:34 pm.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: MR. GERSTEN:

On the record 12:34.

Can I just have the last

question read back for a moment.

(The testimony was read.)

Q

Now, I will butcher the name of the young man

who works for matter Martino, David mark? A Q Makerwicz. Makerwicz. How often have you and Mr.

Makerwicz met? A I'm not sure of the exact number of times.

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Q A Q A Q

More than five? Over what time period. Over the past month? I can't think of a time. Okay. And am I correct, ma'am, he was the

one who wrote the brief that you talked about the last session that was rejected by the Second Circuit? A Q available? A Q Not with me. Okay. Would you be able to ask your counsel, Yes. And do you have a copy of that brief

if I ask your counsel to produce a copy of that brief, is that something you would be willing to produce? A Q Yes. ?

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MR. GERSTEN: MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: that over the weekend. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q

Can you make -Of course. Thank you. I meant to do

I forgot.

Now, you indicated earlier today, ma'am, that

you consider the time period that you spent on your leave of absence from Robinson & Cole to be part of the time period where you've engaged in the active practice

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of law, correct? A Q Yes. Am I correct -- let me ask you a question: If you concede you

Could you explain that to me?

weren't practicing law at the time when you were involved in the campaign, what is the basis for you to include the time period that you worked on the campaign

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as part of your calculation of being involved in the active practice of law? A The -- the definition of active practice in

21890's are what active practice are considered to be in the 18 09's and also that I have been admitted to the bar in Connecticut since 1986. Q Okay. So if I understand it correctly then,

ma'am, you're indicating that even if you don't engage in the practice of law and you just do political work, that's considered to be part of the way you count your involvement in the active practice of law because of the way it was done in the 1897? A Do I have that right?

In 1897, the active practice probably meant

simple the not retired and I have not retired from the practice of law when I was working on Mr. Blumenthal's campaign. Q So since you were not retired from the

practice of law, you're counting it towards your time

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period of 24 years of actively practicing law, am I correct? A Q Yes. Good. And when you say back in 1897 that's Strike

what it meant, what's your basis for that?

that. Do you have a basis for that or is that -- that's your opinion, right? A Research has been done by my attorneys at the

Horton law firm on that subject. Q Okay. As you sit here today, do you know

anything about that subject? A Q Yes. Okay. And what is it you know about that

subject then? A retired. Q Okay. And are you able to cite me to any That at the time active practice meant not

authority for that? A That would be the equivalent of the practice

book or the rules of court in Connecticut at the

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time. Q A Q A Have you read that? Yes. And when did you read it? I reviewed it in the brief that we talked

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about, the brief draft that we spoke about. Q Okay. And as you sit here today are you able

to recall the authority for that position any nor clearly than just the equivalent of a practice book? A It's the authority cited in the draft brief

and also our volunteer lawyer, Ted Dolittle did his own research on that topic and shared it with me. Q Okay. And when did Mr. Dolittle do his own That's a

research on that topic and share it with you? terribly question.

When did Mr. Dolittle share it with you?

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A Q

In January. Was that in January before you announced your

candidacy or after? A Q After. And when you say he shared it with me, did he

share it with you in writing? A Q A Q We talked about it. Did he share it with you in writing? I don't remember. Okay. What do you recall Mr. Dolittle

telling you when he advised you of what he learned? A Q Active practice meant not retired. Okay. And you had a telephone call with him

on this or a face-to-face meeting?

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A

Telephone call.

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Q

And you're indicating that he had done some

research, but you can't recall if he had shared it with you in writing, correct? A Q Yes. Now, do you -- in January, do you recall

giving a press conference and indicating that you had already checked out the issue as to whether you had satisfied the requirement of the active practice of law before you made your declaration for running for attorney general? A Q What press conference are you referring to? Any press conference. I know you do a lot of

A

I'm not certain which press conference you're

referring to. Q Okay. Have you ever told a member of the

press that prior to the time you had made a decision to run for attorney general, you were aware of this requirement of the ten years of active practice, you had already checked it out and you had satisfied it? A Q A Yes. Okay. Who did you make that statement to?

I don't remember but the statement's

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correct.

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Q

Okay.

What research had you done prior to

your declaration for candidacy? A I looked at the statute and looked to see if

there was any legislative history on the -- on that statute, the ten-year requirement, 3-124, there was none, and there was also no case law. Q So when you told people I checked it out and

I'm okay and I satisfy the requirement, you were relying simply on the work you just described as checking the statute and not seeing any legislative history? A Nor any case law. There did not appear to be

anything to prohibit me from serving. Q Okay. So that's what you were referring to

when you told the press that you've already -- you were

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aware of the issue and you had done some research and you would satisfy the statute; is that correct? A Q Yes. Did you actually go and pull out the statute

yourself or did you have somebody do that for you? A Q I had already looked at the statute. Okay. And do you recall the time period that

you had already looked at the statute? A Q Yes. Okay. Prior to the announcement. So we know that prior to January 13th

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then you made this -- you looked at the statute? A Q statute? A Yes. Yes. Did you confer with anybody upon reading the

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Q A Q A Q A Q

Who did you confer with? Bob Martino. Okay. Was that by telephone or in writing?

It was in person. Okay. Where were you?

At his office. Okay. So this was prior to the time you had

determined to run for attorney general and you sat down with Mr. Martino and you had a discussion about this issue and you said look at the statute, that's all there is, correct? A No. We looked at the statute, we looked to

see if there was any legislative history and we looked to see if there was any case law. Q Okay. I guess I misunderstood. So this is

something you did with Mr. Martino at his law office? A Q Yes. You didn't do it on your own prior to that

A

I had been well aware of the ten year

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requirement since Mr. Blumenthal ran for attorney general. Q A Q And how had you -In 1990. How had you become aware of the ten year

requirement? A general. Q Okay. And were you aware of -- that Claire Do you know I looked at the requirement to be attorney

Nardine Riddle's position -- strike that. Claire Nardine Riddle? A Q I do.

And she was an acting attorney general,

wasn't she? A Q She was. And do you know why she was nominated to act

as attorney general as opposed to getting the title attorney general? A Yes, because she only had eight years of

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practice in Connecticut. Q So am I correct, ma'am, that you and Mr.

Martino sat down that day and discussed the statute and you said, well, this satisfies it, I'm good, correct? A Q Yes. You didn't go back then and take a look at

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what you thought was taking place in 1897, correct? A Correct. We did -- but we looked at -- we

looked to see if there was any legislative history, we didn't see any and we didn't see any case law. Q And that's the extent of what you performed

as your research to determine with Mr. Martino that you had satisfied the statute that day, correct? A Q Yes. Okay. And how long did that meeting last,

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ma'am? A Q I'm not sure. Now, is it your contention that -- you're

familiar with the term CEO, right? A Q A Q Yes. Chief executive officer? Correct. And is the term chief -- if I use the term

CEO in the context of private business, is that clear to you what I'm referring to? A Q Yes. So if you have a CEO of a private business,

like we'll call Travelers insurance, the CEO of Travelers insurance to make it simple, okay. all right with you? A Yes. Is that

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

Q

Is it your contention that the CEO of

Travelers insurance who has a law degree is engaged in the active practice of law while he is acting as the CEO of Travelers Insurance Company? MR. HORTON: Objection to form. You're

talking about a member of the bar of Connecticut; is that correct? BY MR. GERSTEN: Q If The Travelers insurance company has a CEO

who graduated law school, went to Duke, became a member of the Connecticut bar and is now acting as the CEO of Travelers Insurance Company for the past 11 years, is it your contention that that CEO in his capacity as running Travelers Insurance Company is engaged in the active practice of law? A Q He could be. That's a little unclear to me. What do you

mean he could be? A I wouldn't know what it is that he did all

day, but if he negotiated contracts, if he drafted legal documents, then he could be engaged in the active practice of law. Q So let's take both points then. If the CEO

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of Travelers with the qualifications we just discussed negotiates contracts, that's part of his practicing

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

law? A If he negotiates legal contracts, if he

drafts legal documents, he could be engaged in the practice -- the active practice of law. Q You've used the word could be twice now. I'm

trying to understand is it or is it not, if we could eliminate could be? MR. HORTON: A This is a legal -MR. HORTON: the question. MR. GERSTEN: MR. HORTON: I'll restate it. I'll. I object to the form of I object to the form.

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MR. GERSTEN: entitled to object to form. form -- restate the question. with me. STENOMARK. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q

You're not you're I'm going to restate the You don't have to argue

I'm an easy guy to get along with.

Ma'am, is it your testimony that the

individual with a law degree who graduated Duke who got admitted to the bar of Connecticut who acts as the CEO of Travelers Insurance Company would be engaged in the practice of law in your opinion if he negotiates contracts?

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1 2 3 4

A Q A

Yes. And why is that? If he is drafting legal documents, then he is

engaged in the practice of law.

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q documents?

Okay.

What if he's not drafting legal

What I asked you is whether he's engaged in

the practice of law when he's negotiating legal documents. Is it your position that he's practicing

law while he's negotiating legal documents in his capacity as CEO? MR. HORTON: the question. MR. GERSTEN: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Is it your position, ma'am -MR. GERSTEN: Can I have my question, Okay I'll restate it. I object to the form of

Beth, read back, the one that's two questions ago because she answered it about drafting documents I'm just asking about the negotiation of documents. And

there was no objection to it, so I want to do the same question again without having to raise Mr. Horton's ire.

(The testimony was read.)

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A

I don't know.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q And what leads you to have any element of

doubt in your mind, ma'am? A Q I'm not sure. I understand. Is there a reason why you're

not certain? A I'm not sure whether negotiating documents is If drafting

the same as drafting legal documents.

legal documents is the practice of law, is part of practicing law. Q Okay. That's why I asked you the question.

So as you sit here today, negotiating a contract may not be enough to satisfy the requirement of satisfying -- of active practice of law? MR. HORTON: the question. I object to the form of

Would you like me to state my reason.

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q

MR. GERSTEN: MR. HORTON:

No. Very well.

What's the question. I'll try to restate it. Is the reason for your lack of knowledge

relating to your idea -- relating to your inability to answer the question, rather, because negotiating contracts is different than drafting a contract?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

MR. HORTON:

The reason for my

objection is there are two definitions of practice of law going back and forth and you're not making it clear which one you're talking about. MR. GERSTEN: With all due respect, Wes

if the witness isn't sure, just like I gave her the instruction, and ma'am I hope it's clear to you, if you don't know what I'm talking about I'm just a dumb

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lawyer here asking questions you got to be able to say to me I really don't understand the question. That's

not a form objection, that's kind of what sometimes I know you're not a litigator but people get accused of coaching the witness. I'm not doing that but that's

why I'm asking if you don't ever understand any of my questions, you go ahead and tell me I don't get it, you're confusing Mr. Gersten and I'll do my best to restate it. A Q Okay? Is that clear.

Yes. Great. Is it the practice of law in your

opinion for the CEO that we just discussed to be negotiating a contract in his capacity as the CEO of Travelers? A Q And the answer is I'm not sure. And what is it that leads you to believe that

you can't be sure?

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A

He would be using his legal training, I

believe, to negotiate and -- and I would argue that he would be engaged in the active practice of law, especially if he were drafting documents with respect to that negotiation. Q I'm sorry, I only heard a part of it because I

we have someone coming in with your video here.

guess we're going to take a short break so we can put up your second video? MR. HORTON: I guess we have to. Off the record

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 12:54.

(Recess: 12:54 pm to 1:10 pm.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: number 2. On the record. MR. GERSTEN: 1:10.

Beginning of tape

And just for the record,

Wes, can we agree that the interruption that took place is an interruption caused by the untimely arrival of the second videographer who we are

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accommodating at your request. MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: Yes. I just don't want it

counted against me down the road.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 BY MR. GERSTEN: Q correct.

MR. HORTON:

That's absolutely

MR. GERSTEN:

Thanks.

And Bethany, I'm

sorry I'm going to ask you to tell me just the question I asked so I can move on to the next one.

(The testimony was read.)

Now, then, Madam Secretary, let me just ask a

question I'm going to add one more element to that hypothetical I asked you about the CEO. If the CEO

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does not disclose he's an attorney, would you say the same anxious? A Q Which answer. Okay. I'll state this again. If the CEO,

graduated Duke? A Q Law school. Graduated Duke law school became a member of

the Connecticut bar and served as CEO of Travelers Insurance Company for ten years and never indicated to anyone that he was an attorney dealing with those individuals while he was drafting or negotiating the contract, that is the active practice of law? A Yes.

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Q A

And why is that? Because he is using his legal training.

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 away.

Q

Okay.

So is it your testimony and position

in this lawsuit that as long as you use your legal training, you are actively practicing law in a capacity of heading up the secretary of state's office and negotiating or drafting documents? A Q Yes. And would that include documents in which you

indicated earlier you indicated you are actually the client on? A Q Yes. So even STENOMARK when you're the client,

your testimony is you're practicing law, correct? A Q Yes. And you mentioned earlier that you believe

that in 1897 the statute was referring to someone who was active who was not retired from the practice of law, do I understand that correctly? A Q Correct. Okay. Could you describe how in 1897 an

attorney at law retired from the practice of law? A They close their practice or they passed

Q

Okay.

So if they closed their practice, that

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would be a retirement even though they maintain the title attorney at law? A Q What is that question again? Are you indicating that an attorney at law,

someone who retained the title attorney at law or closed their door was retired from the practice of law? A Q Maybe. Okay. Why is it anything but a yes or no,

ma'am, in your opinion? A I was just wondering perhaps if they were

suspended from the practice of law, perhaps that would be ending their active practice. Q Okay. So there's a third category you're

indicating now, retired, death or suspension? A And I'm not certain about retired because you

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still -Q A Q Retain the title attorney at law don't you? Yes. That's why I'm asking you how can you be a That's exactly why I'm

retired attorney in 1897? asking you the question? A Q

Well, I'm not sure. Now, let's assume for a moment you have an

individual who graduated Duke law and then practiced

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for four or five years in private practice, and then went to go to work as a rock and roll singer and engaged in the rock and roll industry as a singer. that person engaged in the active practice of law? A Q Sure. Okay. And how about the individual who Is

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graduated Duke law school and worked for four or five years in private practice and then went to work at a kindergarten teaching students, is that individual engaged in the practice of law? MR. HORTON: Object to this question.

Are all these people are actually admitted to a bar. MR. GERSTEN: I'll restate my question

if that's the big -- if that's a problem. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Ma'am, instead of the title CEO, if I have an

individual who went to Duke law school, worked for four or five years, joined the Connecticut bar, paid his dues every year as a member of the Connecticut bar and then decided to go teach kindergarten children at the local school around the corner, is that individual engaged in the practice of law once he started the teaching of kindergarten children? A bar. Was the person admitted to the Connecticut

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 bar?

Q A Q

Yes, ma'am? Yes. And are you indicating, likewise, if the

individual who graduated Duke law, got admitted to the Connecticut bar, practiced for four or five years, and then went to go sing in a rock and roll band, that person's engaged in the active practice of law; is that correct? A Was that person admitted to the Connecticut

Q A Q

Yes, ma'am. The answer is yes. Okay. How about the individual who graduated

Duke law school, got admitted to Connecticut, became a member of the Connecticut bar, and then decided to close the doors of his office, maintain his Connecticut bar membership and go fishing every day for ten years. Would you consider that person to be engaged in the active practice of law during the time period he went fishing?

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A Q

Yes. So is it your testimony today that as long as

someone is an active member -- strike that is a dues paying member of the Connecticut bar, that's engaged in the active practice of law?

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A

If they are admitted to the Connecticut bar,

then they are engaged in the practice of law. Q So your testimony is as long as they've been

admitted to the practice -- admitted to the Connecticut bar, that's the active practice of law? A Q Under one definition, yes. Okay. And have you seen any support for that

position or is that just your opinion? A brief. Yes, I've seen it's in our brief, our draft

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Q

Okay.

As you sit here today, are you able to

cite to any cases that support that position? A Q No. Okay. And you've indicated that that's one

definition. is correct?

Have you got a definition that you believe

MR. HORTON:

I object to form.

You

mean as opposed to the first one. MR. GERSTEN: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Is that the definition you're relying on in Yes.

this case as the plaintiff in this case, ma'am? A Q A Not the only one, sir. Okay. Yes. So you have more than one?

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1

Q

Okay.

So the -- what other ones are there

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then, ma'am? A There are other definitions of active

practice that include many activities, in addition to going to court. For instance, giving legal advice. Or advocating for

For instance, drafting documents. changes in the law. practice. Q Okay.

Those all constitute active

So if I understand it correctly, so is

going fishing, as long as you have an active membership in the bar, correct? A There is an interpretation of -- that active

practice means bar admission only. Q Okay. Which definition are you relying on as

the plaintiff in this case to demonstrate to the court that you are engaged in the active practice of law for a period of ten years at the bar? A Q We are relying on -A ma'am I'm going to excuse you for a moment

when you say we you recognize that you're the plaintiff right? A Q Yes. There is no we there is only one person,

that's you, right?

25

A

I am.

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Q A Q

Okay. And my counsel are. So what I would like to know is what are the

plaintiff's understanding of the definition we're all going to be listening for to know how you think you're going to satisfy the requirement of being engaged in the active practice of law for ten years at the bar? A Among other things, the statutes 9 dash 3 and

9 dash 4, which require me as secretary of the state to give legal advice to election officials, to write legal opinions and declaratory rulings. Q Okay. Is there any other definition you're

relying on? A ? Let me restate my question. You're not

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relying on the definition that you just referred us to that a person who has a law degree who became a member of the bar closed his office and decided to go fishing would be considered the active practice of law, are you. MR. HORTON: Objection to the form.

Which definition are you talking about Eliot. A I'm confused.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Okay. Are you considering -- is it your

position that the individual -- I want to make sure I

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understand it because if you're confused I'm more confused. Is it your position, ma'am, that the person

who graduated Duke law school, joined the Connecticut bar, opened an office for four years in private practice and then went to close the doors of that

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

office and went fishing for ten years, would that person satisfy the requirements of actively practicing law so long as they maintain their Connecticut bar membership? A Under one definition of active practice, if

the person was admitted to the Connecticut bar, they would be actively practicing. going fishing. Q Okay. That's what I wanted to know. So Our case is not about

you're not relying on the going fishing example, correct? A Q That was your example. You're right. And you said that person would

be considered an active member? A Q Under one definition. Right. And that is the definition you're That calls for a simple yes

relying on in this case? or no? MR. HORTON: the form of the question.

No it doesn't I object to

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BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Go ahead, ma'am? That is the -- is the going

fishing definition, the one we went over, the definition, because you said that's one definition that exists, is that the definition that you are relying on in this lawsuit? MR. HORTON: the question. one definition. A We have multiple -MR. GERSTEN: If you couch her one more I object to the form of

You're assuming she's relying on only

time, Wes, you're right I'm going to go to the judge. Please. A I've already said there are many arguments

that we are making with respect to how I meet the active practice definition under our state's law. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q And my question to you is not whether there

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are many arguments, I'm trying to find out if this is one of the arguments you are relying on. for a yes or a no? A Q Yes. Thank you. And going back to your That calls

understanding about what happened with Claire Nardine Riddle, was it your position at that time that

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Ms. Riddle satisfied the statute? A Q At which time? At the time that she was named acting

attorney general because there were questions whether she satisfied the statute. A What was your position?

I wasn't aware of -- I certainly didn't have

a position back when that happened. Q Okay. And how did you learn about

Ms. Riddle's -- the issue concerning Ms. Riddle's

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position? A It was brought to my attention when questions

with respect to 3-124 arose. Q attention? A Q An attorney from orange. And when did the attorney from orange bring Okay. And who brought it to your

it to your attention? A public -Q after? A Q A Q Oh, I don't know. Did he do it in writing or oral 8? Orally. Does he have a name? Was it before you filed your lawsuit or Sometime after this issue came up in

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A Q A Q lawyers? A Q

He does. And what is his name? Joseph Lembo. And is Mr. Lembo a member of your volunteer

No. Okay. Which just takes me one more question

about that.

You indicated that you meet with your

volunteer lawyers as a group, I think you said twice a month. A Is that correct? I'm not certain there's a regular -- in one

month we could have met twice. Q Okay. How about over the past four weeks,

how many times have you met with your volunteer lawyers? A Q A Q A Q A Once or twice. Okay. I'm not certain.

Where did you meet?

In Meriden. Okay. Where in Meriden?

Research parkway. Okay. Whose offices?

B and L companies.

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Q A Q

Mr. Orr's offices? Yes. And who are the members of the volunteer

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lawyers who met twice at Mr. Orr's offices in Meriden? A campaign. Q Okay. Was there anyone in that group besides They are attorneys who are helping me on my

Mr. Dolittle, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Martino, Mr. I'm going to butcher his name, Mr. Mack -- whatever his name is? A Q A Q A Q Makerwicz. Makerwicz and Mr. Orr? At various points others. Okay. Yes. And anyone else? Jamie Sullivan?

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q A Q A Q A

Carol Goldberg, John lit advertise I can't. John lit advertise I can't? Uh-huh. Anyone else? Robert born. Is he the one from the northeast? Yes. Those are the ones that are coming

immediately to mind. Q Okay. And this -- these two meetings you've

described, are these meetings that are similar as you can recall over the -- since you declared your candidacy, if you had a meeting with your volunteer

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lawyers twice a month? A Q Could be. Okay. Now, which calendar do you use to note

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that you're meeting with your volunteer lawyers? A Q I don't necessarily use a calendar. Okay. Now, in the last session you mentioned

you've recused yourself from any consideration of this position from the secretary of state's office. recall that? A Q Yes. Did you make some kind of written memorandum Do you

regarding your recusal? A Q ma'am? A office. Q Okay. And what does the memorandum say, do It would be in the secretary of state's Yes. And where is that memorandum located,

you recall? A It's one or two sentences and it says simply

that for the purposes of putting candidates on the attorney -- candidates for attorney general in the 2010 election, that I recuse myself. Q And did you recuse yourself before or after

you received the opinion letter from Mr. Blumenthal?

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A

I have to be -- I would like to know what day

his letter was written before I can answer that. Q Okay. We can come back to it.

Is there a -- do you know if you recused yourself before or after you wrote your letter to attorney general Blumenthal? A opinion. Q A Q Correct. After. Okay. Was there a reason why you didn't Are you referring to our request for an

recuse yourself before? A Q No. Okay. What led you to recuse yourself after

you received Mr. Blumenthal's letter when you decided you wouldn't recuse yourself beforehand? A I recused myself after I received advice from

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my counsel. Q A And that was Mr. Krisch? Yes, who had spoken to Perry Zinn-Rowthorn. MR. HORTON: A Krisch, excuse me. MR. GERSTEN: As long as the state's Krisch.

here at the table I'm going to make a claim to get that document please.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 referring to. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q document.

MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN:

What's the

MR. GERSTEN:

Whatever it is she's Her recusal documents.

Whatever it is.

And you're indicating now that Mr. Krisch had

a conversation with the attorney general's office and

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that's when the decision was made about recusing yourself? A Q that? A Q A Q Which date? The date that you recused yourself. Well, it will be on the letter. Okay. I'm asking you these Madam Secretary Yes. Okay. And you don't recall the date of

because we're going to ask for this to be produced but we have to do our best to try to identify it and you're the only one who's seen it? A It was probably after January 29th, the date

that I filed the lawsuit, to the best of my recollection. MR. GERSTEN: Perry is that enough

identification for you to be able to track it down at your end or do you need more.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 BY MR. GERSTEN: Q document.

MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: I can get it for you. MR. GERSTEN: Okay.

I know about the

Thanks.

Now, ma'am, just one more brief question Did you take any time off of work for

about your past.

any maternity leave? A Q Yes. Okay. And what kind of time off did you take

for I think you have what, three kids or is it four? A Q Three. Three. I didn't know if you're counting your So would you tell me

husband because my wife would.

how much time did you take off from employment for each of the maternity leaves? A I would have to check with -- I recall taking I know that I took some

approximately -- I don't know.

maternity leave with my daughter Ava, my oldest child and I took no maternity leave with my other two children because they were born when I was in the legislature.

22 23 24 25

Q

When you say they were born while you were in

the legislature? A Q Yes, sir. Does that mean they were born when the

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legislature was in session or it was out of session? A Well, I have to think about that. When my

daughter Lana was born, it was December 22nd, 1993 and the legislature was not in session, to the best of my recollection. And my son, Tristan was born on August

5th, 1995, and I do not believe that the legislature was in session at the time. Q So does that mean you did take time off from

your employment at Aetna for maternity leave? A Q I don't remember. Okay. And one other question. You're aware

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that because Mr. Horton made it clear our last session that you're making a constitutional challenge in this case, aren't you, as the plaintiff? A Q Yes. Okay. As you understand it, what is your

constitutional challenge? MR. HORTON: I object and I don't -It's a I'm not

this strikes me as getting to be harassment. pure legal question as you well know, Eliot.

directing her not to answer, but if this goes much longer on that subject I'm going to claim harassment. A I believe I answered this question the last

time I was here, but our constitutional argument is

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that when our constitution was changed in 1970 and 1980 to say that if you are -- if you are 18 and an elect

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

tore, you can run for any office in the state and that language, therefore nullifies the 1897 statute. is the constitutional argument. Q Okay. And are you making the argument that That

you need not be an attorney in order to run for attorney general under your constitutional argument? A Q No. So are you conceding that you need to be an

attorney to run for attorney general under your constitutional argument? A Under the constitutional argument, you don't

need to be an attorney. Q Okay. That's -- I thought you said the

answer to the question was no. A Q Yes, you don't need to be an attorney. So if your constitutional argument is

accepted, you do not need to be an attorney to run for attorney general? A Q Correct. And you do not need to be an attorney to be

admitted to the Office of Attorney General? MR. HORTON: A Is that the same thing.

You mean to be eligible to run for attorney

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general or to be sworn in. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q me. A If the 1897 statute is invalidated, you would Sworn in. Thank you for clarifying it for

not need to be an attorney. Q So we're clear on this litigation, your

position is that someone who is not an attorney can run for attorney general so long as they're over the age of 18 and are an elect tore in the state of Connecticut, correct? A This is assuming the 1897 statute is

invalidate, yes. Q I'm accepting your constitutional argument

that I'm looking to invalidate that statute, correct?

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q

Yes. So you would be looking to invalidate the

requirement that one would have to be an attorney to become an attorney general representing the people of the state of Connecticut? A I am an attorney, so I -- I'm sorry, I'm not

understanding your question. Q Is it your position that if the 1897 statute

is invalid because it conflicts with the constitution, you need not be an attorney to become attorney general

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of the state of Connecticut? A Q Correct. Now, let's talk about what you do on a By

typical day in your position as secretary of state. the way, are you being paid as secretary of state for the day that you've been here to testify?

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A Q A Q

I'm taking a vacation day. So today's a vacation day? Yes. And last week did you submit that as a

vacation day when you appeared for your deposition? A Q A Q I will. Okay. You haven't done that yet?

Not yet. And just to be clear, this videographer who's

here today, that's an expense that you are personally incurring yourself, correct? A Q Yes. Now, over the weekend or I guess it was

Friday, excuse me, Mr. Horton delivered to me your calendar that I'm hoping I have a clean copy of so I can? MR. HORTON: afternoon? MR. GERSTEN: Yes. I thought I had You mean the one Thursday

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

copies made of it.

I'm just looking for it right now.

I'll come back to it. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q I correct. Ma'am, I think I'm on Exhibit 9 right now am What number? 10. I'm going to show you

what we're going to have the court reporter mark as Exhibit 10 which are Bates stamp pages from the secretary of state's 045 through 098 and I'm going to ask you after it's been marked for you to identify it for us and see if we can ask you some questions from it? (Defendant's Exhibit 10 marked for identification. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q A Ma'am, do you recognize this document? I don't know. This -- it looks like it's a Calendar.

calendar from March of 2000 and it looks like it was printed out March of 2010. And I don't -I don't know what this is.

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Q A a while. Q

You don't recognize this document? I haven't seen my calendar from 2000 in quite

Okay.

Well, do you recall answering

interrogatories in this case when we asked you about whether you have a calendar to produce?

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A Q

Uh-huh. And do you remember saying none other than

what the secretary of state's office would produce? A Q A Q Uh-huh. Do you recall that? Yep. And as you look at this today, are you

indicating you can't tell if this is the calendar that you operated from -- I can represent to you, ma'am that the numbers at the bottom were placed there by Perry or

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his crew or his client and we've been told this is your calendar. A Q I'm looking to see if you can confirm that. It appears to be my calendar. Good. Now, you testified previously that you

couldn't really tell us what he did on any given day without looking at your calendar, do you recall that? A Q Yes. Okay. Now, I'm looking at your calendar from

just the first page which is dated 4/5 there. MR. HORTON: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q that? event. A The first page there number 45. Do you see I'm sorry.

Is it owe I see something about block field TC Do you know what that stands for? It looks like it could stand for Brookfield

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town committee. Q Okay. And just so we have the record clear

because I don't know what I'm talking about, what is a Brookfield town committee? A Q A democratic town cheat. So in your secretary of state's book here

you've recorded a meeting that you attended on March 12th, some Brookfield democratic town event, town committee event; is that correct? A Q Yes. Good. Now, that week doesn't seem to have

any other meetings you took place in. A Yes, and I'm actually wondering about this

month myself. Q A What is it you're wondering, ma'am? Because I know I did -- I'm surprised that

there are no events recorded on this calendar and I am wondering about them. Q Okay. So it looks like it may be missing

some information? A Q It does. Good. Let me ask you to take a look at the It's page number

page that's entitled May 14th, 2000.

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54 do you see it? A May 14th.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 5545?

Q

Right.

Down at the bottom it should say SOTS

A Q

Yes. This seems to have some recording on it East

Granby TC event and Granby TC event? A Q That's the 18th STENOMARK. Right. And those dates that would be the

democratic town committee for those two towns again? A Q I would assume. Okay. And you can see that if we go to the

next page you see something for the Pomfret town committee. Do you see that? And then it's blank, it's

blank, it's blank, so if I look at this calendar and I said to you Madam Secretary, could you tell us all the

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activities you did during this time frame that your calendar that you told us you would have to refer to, reflected that you worked on during that period of time? A Q I couldn't tell you. All right. So if I looked at this calendar,

you would agree with me, ma'am, that it appears the only thing the secretary of state did was have a few meetings with the democratic town committees during the year stretching from March 12th, 2000 all the way to December 2000, correct?

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A Q

Yes, but I'm not sure this is the calendar. Well, this is the one you referred us to when

you told us you can rely on that calendar that's going to tell you what I did. And it appears though the only

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thing that's registered here are you going to democratic town committee events, correct, through December? A Yes. And there is something that seems odd

about that. Q Okay. Now the next question I have for you

is in your answers to interrogatories you made it clear that you weren't claiming that everything you do 24/7 is part of your practicing law, correct? A Q Can you restate that question? Sure. In your answers to interrogatories,

weren't you pretty certain that you said strike that. In your answers to interrogatories, didn't you indicate that not everything you do all day long has to do with your claim of practicing law, correct? A Q Correct. Okay. Is it your testimony today under oath

that your attendance during the year of 2000, these calendar entries we see here at democratic town committee events is practicing law? A It isn't.

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Q A

Okay. However, I was absolutely working as

secretary of the state during this time period because for instance in November of 2000 we would have had that very interesting presidential election at which point we were dealing with many election issues and there were many media interviews, especially during the months of November and December in the aftermath of that election, which do not appear on this calendar, which are making me wonder whether, in fact, this calendar is an accurate representation of my work. that's why I'm looking in November and I know that I was doing numerous media interviews which would have been noted and they're not appearing on the calendar. Q Okay. Well, you were the one who And

indicated -- you guys can go rely on whatever the secretary of state has produced to you to know what I do as secretary of state and you said go look at that

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calendar. A Q

Do you recall that? Yes. And now what you're indicating is we can't

really rely on this calendar that's been produced for that time period? A Q Not this particular portion. It just ain't right, right? So let's take

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this we'll just throw it out. Let's go to another one.

That one doesn't count.

Let's look at a time period

covering the next year we'll have this one marked as Exhibit 11, please?

(Defendant's Exhibit 11: identification. ( Calendar 2001. MR. GERSTEN:

Marked for

Can I have the exhibit

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the one I wanted to throw out for a moment handed back to me, Madam Secretary? perfect. Thank you. We're almost

Just so the record's clear, Bethany, I'm

going to take January 14th, which is SOTS 90 through 98, which was accidentally included in the prior exhibit and I'm converting that to Exhibit 11 so the witness has that period of time in front of her. Madam Secretary, could you take a look at Exhibit 11, please, which is the one to your right. A Q document? A Q Yes. Okay. Can we agree this would be your This one? Yes, ma'am. Do you recognize this

appointment calendar that you referred us to earlier in your interrogatories as coming from the secretary of state's office. Reflecting your activities?

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A Q

Yes. Good. Now, referring you to what I'm going

to -- the March 11th date, which is at 98 there. A Q page 98. Wait a minute. What?

The March 11th, 2001 time period, which is It's the last page. Do you see where I'm

referring to, page 98? A Q Yes. Good. Is it your testimony that when you're

speaking to Paul Patterson's government class relating to citizenship you're practicing law? A Q Yes. Good. And is it your testimony that when you

indicate that you're at the Simsbury TC event would that the be democratic town committee again? A Yes, although it says a.m. and I wouldn't

have gone to a democratic town committee event in the morning. Q A morning. Q So this is wrong? Okay. So --

They're not held at 8:0 or 9:30 in the

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A

I'm just curious as to why it doesn't say Well, I'm not sure about the time frame.

Q

Okay.

Well, are you testifying now that

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looking at it recording at 9:30 a.m., that's an error? A It appears to be. I do recall visiting the

Simsbury democratic town committee because the town of Simsbury was not on the central voter registration system and I was speaking to democratic town committees in this period to try to get them to -- to try to get particular towns to be part of our centralized voter registration system which prevents fraud and which protects voter rights. And was later included in And in the help

legislation that was passed in 2004. America to vote act as well.

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Q

So if you were going to -- you were doing

that to the democratic town committees as part of your job being a lawyer? A state. Q A Q As secretary of state? And I am a lawyer. And in your performance of the job as As part of my job being secretary of the

secretary of state, you were going to the various democratic town committees to encourage people to follow your advocacy, if you will, of getting them involved in the voting program that you just described, do I got that right?

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A

Yes, because that was a component of the Help

America Vote Act of 2002 and also of legislation that was passed in 2004.

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Q

Okay.

And when I go through this, where I

see notations of Simsbury town event just like we did before those are all the democratic town committees as you just testified, right? A Yes, although I have been to republican town

committees to talk about this and members of my staff have as well. Q Okay. Before we get to members of your

staff, I'm looking only at your calendar and trying to find any reference to you go to a republican town committee event. I don't see any obvious until 2000, How about these

but we already know that's worthless.

three months of 2001 are there any reference of you going to any republican town committees? A I know that I went to a republican town

committee in Waterbury to do a demonstration of our new voting equipment. Q A Q years? A Uh-huh. Okay. Yes. Okay. You've been in this office for 11 So that's one?

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Q

Do you recall any other occasion besides this

one in Waterbury where you went to the republican town committee? A I have also been to a republican -- a

republican town committee event to honor some citizens of the year. Q A those. Q Okay. Now, looking at the Exhibit 11 in Is it your testimony that when you -- I Okay. Uh-huh. So that's two? I tend to get invited less to

front of you.

thought you indicated a moment ago, ma'am, that you don't consider it part of your active practice of law when you're at these democratic town committees as of 2000. A Did that change? I am reminded that one of the reasons I was

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visiting with democratic town committees was to talk about why particular towns should be part of our centralized voter registration system because when I took office there were only a certain number of towns that were part of it. And it actually required

legislation that was included at the federal level in the Help America Vote Act and at the state level and an election law reform. Q And so that was part of your job as public

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policy, correct? A Q Yes. And if I understand it correctly, you're

indicating because you are an attorney, as a member of the bar, when you are espousing matters of public policy, you are engaged in the active practice of law; is that correct?

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yes.

A

When I am advocating for changes to the law,

Q A

As a matter of public policy? As a matter -- when I advocate for changes in

election law, in -- for other types of law changes, that is the practice of law. Q Okay. And you would agree with me that

you -- when you do that, that is engaging in matters of public policy, correct? A It is engaging in public policy, it is also

engaging in the active practice of law to advocate for legislative changes at the state level and at the federal level. Q And would you agree with me, ma'am that there

are many people who engage in that kind of advocacy who do not have a law degree? A Q Absolutely. And you'll agree with me that there are many

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people who advocate in that kind of public policy who didn't go to law school? A Q Absolutely. And there are people who advocate in that

kind of capacity who are not members of the Connecticut bar? A Q Yes. And what makes you different from all of them

and why you call it practicing law is because you have a law degree, right? A Q bar? A I don't belong to the Connecticut bar Yes. And you had your dues paid to the Connecticut

association, if that is what you're talking about. Q Okay. I'm glad you reminded me. You don't

belong to the Connecticut bar association, do you? A Q me. I don't. No. Thanks for reminding

I forgot about that.

And other than recently, you've never paid

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anything in the past ten years to the Department of Revenue Services as a part of your active practice of law, correct? A Q No. And you've never paid to the lawyers security

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fund, other than that one instance in January 2010 over the past ten years, correct? A Q Correct. And that's always been paid for you, other

than that $55 check you wrote? A Q Correct. And going back to Exhibit 11, then. Could

you point out in this time period those instances which you believe support your claim that you are engaged in the active practice of law during this time period? A Yes. There are meetings with legislators

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where we were talking about legislative changes. Q Okay. Go slow. Where are you referring to

on this exhibit, please? A I am referring to various notations about

meetings with state representatives and legislators. Q A Curry. Okay. And that would be on the 18th there?

That would be on the 16th with representative That would be on the 18th with representative

God free and representative dies son. Q ma'am? A Q Yes. Can you identify those activities that upon Great. Can we move onto the next week,

your review reflect that you were engaged in the

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practice of law during this time period?

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A

Yes.

In that I was meeting with various

legislators with respect to the legislative session, so that would be Senator Gaffey on the 23rd, representative Carter on the 13th, representative Fontana on the 26th, and Representative Montilla on the 26th as well. Q Okay. Now, ma'am, all of these

representatives you're referring to, are these all just democrats? A They are but they are democrats who are in

charge of committees. Q Okay. Going to the next week, ma'am. Could

you identify those activities that you claim support your position that you're engaged in the practice of law during this time period? A Yes. There is a meeting with representative

Nafis and also representative Denise Merrill and there is a notation about the legislative meeting with mayors. Q clear. A Q Okay. So I just want to make sure I got this

You're talking about Tuesday the 30th? Yes. And you're talking about that meeting there

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that took place for about 30 minutes?

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A Q A Q minutes? A Q

Yes. Okay. And the other one you pointed us to?

Oh, I'm sorry, I missed Representive Lyons. And Representive Lyons, that's another 30

Yes. And what was the other one you referred us to

representative Merrill? A Q A Q A Q Yes. And that is on Thursday the 1st.

And that's another 45 minutes? Yes. Right? Yes. Okay. So in this entire week what we got

here is an hour and 45 minutes spent on the activity

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that you claim supports your position of practicing law, correct? A Q Yes, amongst other things. Okay. Well, are you talking -- I've been

asking you to tell us what on this calendar amongst other things but I don't see anything here. I asked you? A What you have is my public meetings for these That's why

particular days during the -- during the legislative session. And, you know, and the other times I am

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running the agency.

And talking to election officials

on the telephone, meeting with people in my office. Q Okay. Well, I'm looking at meetings with

people in your office, just on this week. A Yes.

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Q Babette? A Q A Q

And I see meetings with Maria Tanya and

Uh-huh. And it says something about office issues. Yes. Are you indicating that that's another 30

minutes that should be counted in your week towards the practice of law? A Q Amongst other things, yes. Okay. But as you sit here today, if I

understood your testimony last time, there's really nothing else that you can rely on besides your calendar that would allow us to know what you do during a day, there is no other documents, correct? A There are many documents that our office has

produced and that our -- and that I have written. Q Okay. Okay. We're going to come to those.

But other than those examples that you selected, there is nothing in the form of any daily report that would reflect that you do anything at all, other than what's

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on these calendars, correct? A office. Q Okay. Could you identify those that tell us Well, there are lots of documents in our

what we would look at to know what you do on a daily basis because you indicated in your last testimony, I can't remember what I recall I would do and I needed to have my calendars to refresh my recollection. So are

you indicating there is something other than your calendars that we need to look at to refresh your recollection of what you would be doing? A I'm just making the comment that there are

many phone calls and other meetings that I might have with people in my office that are not reflected on this calendar. Q Okay. And where would one look for documents

that would reflect what you just described, all these telephone calls? A Well, you can look at our telephone

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records. Q Okay. And what telephone records would you

be referring to to tell me we should look at those that would refresh your recollection? A Well, those would be telephone calls that I

made either myself or with my deputy or with other

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attorneys in our office, as an example. Q Okay. And what kind of records would reflect

that, that you are referring us to? A Q There would be telephone records. Are you just talking about long distance

telephone charges, is that what you're referring to? A Q That's right. Would there be any memorandum that you could

refer us to?

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A

I mentioned the last time we met the log

books that some of our attorneys keep. Q And you're aware that when you made the

request for the log books, the secretary of state responded and said we don't have any records like that. Do you recall that? A attorneys. Q And do you recall that your office responded I was referring to logs kept by our election

to the request you made in formal discovery and said no such documents exist? A Q I don't recall. Ma'am, did you look at the responses that

were filed in discovery? A I think I do and I am -- perhaps I should

just say that my deputy, Leslie Mara, will often make

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notes on particular conversations that we have with election officials. So perhaps I shouldn't have said

log books and maybe notes is the better term to use. Q So when you made a request of your office and

your lawyers said -- you would agree with me that you asked for a copy of the log kept by the election law division of the Office of the Secretary of State reflecting the division's responses to official election law Inquiries during the years 1999 to 2010, that was a request that you helped prepare, correct? A Q Yes. And did you receive a response or did you -Did you read the response of the

strike that.

secretary of state that said the office has no documents responsive to this request? that? A Q May I see that, please? I'm going to show you question number 16 and Did you read

the answer which was given under oath from my copy even with my handwriting on it. response? A Q I must have. Okay. So your request of your office Did you read that

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produced no documents, correct? A Correct.

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Q

Now, ma'am, I'm still on this Exhibit 11.

And what I'd like to make sure we go through is in the week of February 18th, the only entry I see of your activities would be your meeting with the democratic Norwich town committee, correct? A Q A That's the only one I see. And that's at 8:30 in the morning? And that doesn't seem to be the correct time

because I know of no town committees that meet 59 8:30 in the morning. So I'm wondering if there was a

computer issue with that. Q A Okay. Generally town committee meetings are in the

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evening. Q Okay. Now, I'm looking at the next week, I'm sorry, it's page 94. I have a 93 and a 95.

February 11th. A Q A Q

I don't have a 94. Okay. Wait. Okay.

Well, everything -No. It's out of order. Looking on this page of

Thank you.

your week, can you identify the time that you can that demonstrates you were engaged in the practice of law during this week? A Well, as an example I was meeting with

representative Wade Heislope and was meeting with

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senator Chris co, who was on the budget writing committee, and we did those meetings in preparation for an advocacy for legislation and also for our offices budget.

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Q minutes? A Q A Q

I'm looking at that it looks like it took 30

Yes. On the 16th. Yes. And looks like that's about it that week 30 Correct?

minutes spent, right? A 30 minutes that that meeting took. Doesn't

mean I wasn't engaged in the active practice of law at other times. appointments. Q Okay. Well, where would we look to find out These are simply my public

your private appointments, if not in your calendar here? A Well, my private appointments wouldn't be on

this state calendar. Q Okay. And you wouldn't be saying that -- I

think you testified earlier that your private appointments are when you go to see the doctor, right? A Correct.

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Q

So we're not counting that as practice of law

now are we? A Q No. Okay. Where would you keep a record of your

activities of your private activities as opposed to your public activities? A I guess I'm not sure what you mean by my

private activities. Q Okay. Well you indicated that this is my

public calendar? A Q Right. And this is the calendar that reflects my

activities that I've engaged in as secretary of state, correct? A Correct. But every -- every telephone

conversation, every constituent letter, every legal ruling or memo that I've worked on does not appear on

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this calendar. Q A Okay.

These are my public appointments.

For instance, a democracy cup in West

Hartford, a presentation in Essex that week as an example. Q Well, you recall making a big note in your

calendar of spending time drafting your letter request to the attorney general regarding your eligibility to

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become a candidate, correct? your calendar, didn't you? A Q Okay. I did.

You marked it down on

So we know of one instance where you made a

big deal or maybe it was no big deal of marking the time you spent drafting a letter to the attorney general, correct? A Correct.

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Q

Is there a reason why you have no

indication -- again I'm just pulling three months from one year and three months from the other, there is no indication of you doing any letter writing in any of these calendars, is there? A Q Not on the calendar. Okay. MR. GERSTEN: I'm going to have marked

147 through 152 and ask the secretary after that's been marked as an exhibit to see if she can tell me if she can identify this.

(Defendant's Exhibit 12:

Marked for

identification.) Calendar 2002.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Ma'am, you can identify these documents as

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coming from your calendar at the secretary of state? A Yes. MR. HORTON: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q And on these papers, can you -- for the first I'm Is this 12?

page -- you know, I thought I had an extra copy.

just going to take a two minute break because I thought I had a copy and I wanted to ask you some questions on this one. I want to make a copy. I'm sorry to

interrupt the flow of questions, Madam Secretary.

(Recess: 2:16 pm to 2:30 pm.)

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q 2:31? BY MR. GERSTEN: Q moment. Great. Madam Secretary just to go back for a Beginning of tape number 3. On the record

I'm going to have this document marked as

Exhibit 12 that was handed to me by the attorney general's office during a break. See if you can just

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confirm for me that this is the document.

I'm sorry,

don't rush because we have to have the court reporter mark it first, please?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2010. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q

(Defendant's Exhibit 13:

Marked for

identification.) letter February 19,

Ma'am, looking at Exhibit 13.

This is the

document you were talking about earlier that you indicated you recused yourself on? A Q Yes. Okay. So we have this now, you wrote this

letter after you filed your lawsuit in this case? A Q Yes. Okay. In what part of the -- and then you've

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indicated since that Leslie Mara has recused herself as well? A Q A Q herself? A Q herself? A Well, I guess I don't have any actual I assume she did. What knowledge do you have that she recused I believe she has. Okay. Did she do that in writing?

I believe she did, but I'm not certain. Okay. How did you learn that she recused

knowledge that she did. Q Okay. So when you testified for about twenty

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minutes on the last session when you said it went from you and headed off to Mara and you in turn thought Mara

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head I had it off to Bromley you've never seen any documents that support that? A No. I believe she told me that she intended

to do that. Q Okay. And when you say she told me she

intended to do that did she do that on the same day that you wrote this letter to her? A Q herself? A Q When I was discussing this letter with her. Okay. Did you discuss this letter with her I don't remember. When did she tell you she intended to recuse

before you wrote it? A I'm not certain of the exact timing.

Obviously she got the letter, and I know that we discussed it. Q Okay. And when did she tell you, I intend to

recuse myself also, Madam Secretary? A Q A it. Q Okay. And as you sit here today, what About this time. After she received this letter? I believe so, at the same time she received

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statutory authority did you have to delegate the decision making with respect to this matter to your deputy? A Q A Q A I had the advice of counsel. Okay. And that counsel with whom?

Dan Krisch. So you went and -And my counsel Perry sin row thorn and the

attorney general's office. Q So Perry indicated to you as your counsel

that you should recuse yourself from any decision making with respect to this matter? A Not directly. I believe he had a

conversation with my counsel, Dan Krisch. Q So the secretary of state is relying on

private counsel to give the secretary of state advice

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on recusing the secretary of state from making any decisions with respect to this matter, am I correct on that? A Q Yes. Okay. Were there -- is there any other

attorney you relied on in making the decision to recuse yourself and delegate your decision making to someone else in the office? A Other than those two, no.

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Q

Okay.

And you didn't talk to Perry sin raw

thorn yourself? A Q No. And by this time when you made this decision,

you had already filed a lawsuit against your own office, didn't you?

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A Q

Yes. And you were anticipating -- strike that.

And you were relying on an adversary strike that. You were relying on an attorney who's an -- representing an adversary in this lawsuit to give you advice? MR. HORTON: Could you explain. MR. GERSTEN: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q You've identified Perry sin raw thorn as Sure. I object to the form.

someone that you thought you got advice to recuse yourself on, correct? A I had heard from my attorney that Perry had

mentioned it to him and I relied on my town, Dan Krisch. Q When you say your aware that Perry represents

an adversary to you in this lawsuit, correct? A Q Yes. And are you indicating now that the idea of

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recusing yourself came from the attorney representing an adversary in this lawsuit? A Q Came from Dan Krisch. Okay. So you're not relying on advice given

from the Office of Attorney General in delegating decision making to someone else in your office; is that correct? A Q A Q I think I've answered that question. It would be correct? Correct. Great. Now, do you know of any authority for

you to delegate all decision making with respect to this matter to someone who's not elected as the secretary of state? MR. HORTON: I object to the question.

It's been -- this has been gone over before. A We discussed this in the previous --

deposition. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q We did. Now that I got the letter I'm

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looking for some clarification here. any authority -A Q I don't.

Do you know of

That allows you -- thank you.

I just need to

finish my question then I'll let you answer?

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A Q

Sorry. Pro problem. Do you know of any authority

from you to delegate all decision making with respect to this matter to someone who's not elected as secretary of state? A Q I don't. Thank you. Going back to Exhibit 12, ma'am,

which was the document I wanted to have copied during the break. I'm going to hand that to you now. This is

your calendar for a few months of February 2002?

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MR. HORTON:

Excuse me Eliot before you

go there, we did figure out over the break what the miss store about Exhibit Number 10 is. you wish to question it. A Q If you -- if

If you don't that's fine.

May I add something about Exhibit 10, please? Sure. Hang on a minute I threw it out, Okay.

remember now I'm bringing it back. A

During the break, I spoke with my scheduler

to ask her why town committees might be appearing in the morning and why there didn't appear to be much on the calendar for many months and she indicated that scheduler by the name of Babette Mantilla, who preceded her, had kept calendars on a different program, computer program. And there -- and that may not have

been -- that information may not have been properly

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transferred to this calendar and maybe the reason why,

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you know, town committees are bizarrely appearing on occasion in the early morning, something looks a little strange about this calendar. And she confirmed that

that's when in 2000 we started using a different kind of a -- we changed from one program to another. Q A Q What's her name? Her name is Tammy Marzik. And she's the one whose name appears down

here as the one who printed out this calendar that day? A Q Correct. Right? And are you indicating she worked for

you in March of 2000? A No, I'm saying that Babette Mantilla who is

mentioned on this schedule on Exhibit 12 was the scheduler and Tammy was saying that Babette used a different type of program in 2000. And so maybe the

reason why there isn't anything on here when I know I was very busy in 2000, particularly after the presidential election. Q So we can't rely on these calendars anyway if

I understand your clarification to demonstrate what work you were doing during that time period, correct?

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A

This doesn't appear to show that, yes.

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Q

Okay.

I'm asking you that ma'am because you

were very clear in the last session that we got to look at your calendars to refresh your recollection for us to know what you would have been doing during a period of time and you were very specific in saying 2000. you recall that? A I recall that's it's been a while since I Do

looked at my 2000 calendar. Q Okay. But what you're saying now is that we

can't rely on Exhibit 10 to tell us what you did during the day for that period? A I don't believe Exhibit 10 has the correct

information on it. Q And as you sit here today even with the

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explanation do you know of a calendar that exists that would contain the correct information that would allow us to know what you were doing? A I'm not sure I would have to do a little more

investigation on that. Q Okay. And when you answered the questions to

interrogatories in this case and you indicated we could rely on what the secretary of state's office was producing, this was the calendar you were referring us to specifically in your answer, do you recall that? A Yes.

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Q right?

Okay.

But there is some other document,

There is some other document you think that

would be more -MR. HORTON: said -Objection. I thought she

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q

MR. GERSTEN:

You're right.

Bad

Moving onto Exhibit 12, ma'am.

Can you take

a look at this calendar and indicate -- and confirm for me this is the calendar covering the time period of February 2002 through this one goes through March 2002? A Q Yes. Okay. Now, looking at Exhibit 12 at page

147, ma'am. A Q Yes. Could you indicate to me -- first of all we

have some personal days noted on this one, right? A Q Yes. Okay. So we're not -- are you claiming

strike that. Can you identify those entries on this calendar, just this week's worth of calendar that reflect the time you claimed was spent practicing law

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as the secretary of state? A Well, for instance, on the 19th I was talking

to two -- three media outlets regarding the address confidentiality program, which is now a matter of state law, which was the subject of a law revision commission study to help us create it and we advocated it for legislation to create it within our office and it is now part of state law and it is administered in our commercial recording department. Q Okay. That's the day that's marked as

president's day, right? A Q A Correct. Any other instances? Yes. On Wednesday, the 20th, I was

testifying at a government administration and elections hearing. Q A Okay. So I was speaking about bills that would

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affect our office and that I'm sure our office was supporting. Q Okay. Any other entries on this particular

page reflecting the work you claim you did as practicing law? A Those would be reflective of work that we

were doing in our office.

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Q

Okay.

Just so I'm clear because I'm You do have

concerned about some prior testimony.

marked down here things like visits to the doctor or physical therapy I'm presuming is a doctor type visit. Is that -- you have personal date information on this calendar that -A Q Yes and that should have been removed. When you say it should have been removed, why

should it have been removed?

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A

Because doctor's visits are not disclosed

under freedom of information. Q A Q Okay. Sorry. But in terms of giving a full picture of how

the secretary of state spends her day, this page, for example, reflects how you spent your day during each day this week, correct? A It certainly reflects things -- particular

things that I did. Q A Q And it includes personal information? It does. Now moving onto the next week let me restate For the week then of February

that just for a moment.

17th if we take what you identified here we have approximately four hours and 30 minutes of time during

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that week that you spent practicing law, if I add up everything correctly? A No, because there were other things that I

could have been doing and -- I'm sorry can you restate the question, please. Q Sure. Based upon your testimony in your

reference to your calendar, letting us know that this would reflect your activities, the activities that are reflected in this calendar week total approximately four hours and 30 minutes of time spent practicing law based upon our review of this document; is that correct? A Q Yes. Now, ma'am, going to the next page, which is

February 24th and we're moving into March now, would you be kind enough to identify those entries that you claim support your position that you were engaged in the active practice of law during this week? A One example is we were advocating for our

address confidentiality program that later became law on the 26th of the month. Q Would that be the interview with Mr. Thompson

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that you're referring us to? A That would be correct. And also that would

be one public thing.

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Q

And when you say one public thing what are I'm looking for any evidence

you referring to ma'am.

on this document, public, private, semipublic, semiprivate? A Because this doesn't record everything that I

did in the administration of my office. Q Okay. But again, this is the only document

we've been able to see that reflects it just as you said to us in your earlier testimony, this will help you refresh your recollection? A Yes, although excuse me, let me add that I

have several meetings noted on the 27th regarding the centralized voter registration system and getting all

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of the towns to join that system and it was critical that all towns be on it because the Help America Vote Act was in the process of being drafted in 2002 and I advocated for providing that every state have a centralized voter registration system and West Hartford was not on it, I believe Mr. Harris was the mayor and I met with him to ask him include his town and to get his town to be part of that. I also have meetings with at least one legislator Mary Eberly, and I presume that's about legislation. Q Okay. Anything else?

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A Q

That would be it. All right. So if I add this week up

correctly you've got an hour 45 minutes that you can

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identify as having something to do with the practice of law for the week of February 24th, 2002 to March 2nd, 2002, correct? A Q 2002. Yes. Great. Moving to the next page, March 3rd,

I'm going to ask you again to go through this

and identify those instances in which you indicate that this calendar reflects activities that you think support your position you were engaged in the practice of law? A There is a meeting with mayor positive lack

that could have been about our centralized voter registration. Q A Q A Q A Can you refer me to the date, ma'am? I'm sorry that would have been -Oh, the 4th. The 4th. Yes. And also there is a meeting about the voting Okay?

alternatives commission meeting and at that point we knew that we were going to have to start looking at new voting technologies so that we could be compliant with

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the federal law, and also we were working on state law changes as well. Q A Q A So that's another example.

And what date is that, ma'am? That would be on the 4th as well. Okay. Yes. Any other things on this page? And there was my prep time for

testimony to -- and I often had preparation scheduled to go over testimony on particular bills and advocacy before -- generally the government administration and elections committee. Q A Q A deputy. Q deputy? So that's a meeting you're having with a Are you referring to the entry on the 8th? Yes. And MMG would be whom? Maria March rain that Greenslate, my

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A Q

Yes. Concerning preparation time for testimony and

that's considered by -A Q Yes that is a meeting to go over testimony. And in that testimony is activity that you

claim supports your position that you are actively practicing law as secretary of state, correct? A Yes, because the monitoring of legislation,

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testifying in favor of or against particular legislation is the practice of law. direct you to March 7th. Also I would

We have regular policy

meetings and at those we discuss various pieces of legislation. There is a Maria meeting and a policy

meeting and when we had policy meetings, we would talk about various pieces of legislation that would be

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proposed at the legislature. Q And again that would be a -- when you call it

policy, that's public policy meeting, right? A Q Or legislative policy. Okay. Now, if I add that up correctly now

then I'm talking about one hour, hour and a half, probably a total of six hours that week that you spent actively practicing law that week, based upon your documents? A Q Yes. Good. I'm going to ask you to move to the And on a typical day,

next page, ma'am, of March 10th.

ma'am, when do you show up at your office when you engage in the active practice of law? A Q Around 9:00-ish, 9:00. What time do you consider closing day,

closing of the day? A When the work is done.

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Q A

And generally speaking, when would that be? It really depends because I work, you know,

whenever it's necessary, whether it's on a Sunday, whether it's on a Saturday, whether it's on a holiday, whether it's in the evenings, whether it's in the early morning. Q All right. So you're not limiting yourself

to a 40 hour week, correct? A Q What does that mean? In order to earn your pay as secretary of

state, you don't consider that to be something that a 9:00 to 5:00 job, am I correct? A Q No. And you wouldn't consider yourself to be

somebody who works only 40 hours a week on a general basis, correct? A Q No. And that would be throughout your career here

from 2000 to today you work more than 40 hours a week? A I do.

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Q

Great.

During the week of March 10th, ma'am,

could you point out those instances in which you indicate that you were engaged in the active practice of law?

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A Q A

Yes. Go ahead. Would you be so kind?

It looks like on Sunday evening it starts to

say prep for and it looks like testimony, because then the next day on the 11th I prepared for my testimony before the G A E hearing and the judiciary hearing as well. Q So if we got that Sunday highlighted. Then

we got the judiciary committee hearing? A A testimony prep from 10:15 to 12:00 and then

the G A E hearing from 12:00 to 1:00 and then the

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judiciary hearing from 2:00 to 4:00. Q Okay. Any other occasions that you see

marked in your calendar that reflect activities that you engaged in the practice of law? A R and CVR. Yes. There is a reference on the 12th to E D

It looks like I was speaking to the media

about election day registration in our centralized voter registration bills, which were pending. Q A Q Any other occasions? Those are the ones that I see right there. Okay. Now, in your entry on Monday when you

were at the G A E committee and at the judiciary committee, you didn't represent to either of those legislative bodies that you were an attorney,

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correct? A No, because I sat on the judiciary committee

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when I was in the legislature for six years and many of the members already knew that. necessary. Q Okay. Whether you thought it was necessary I didn't feel it was

or not, if someone is just sitting out in the audience and listening to you talk, they didn't know you, you didn't do anything to identify yourself as I'm here as the secretary of state and I am an attorney letting you know about my position on these issues, correct? MR. HORTON: overall this last time. MR. GERSTEN: go ahead. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q A Madam Secretary? No, I did not indicate I was a lawyer to Actually, I didn't. But I object because you went

either committee. Q And would you agree with me, ma'am, that

members of the public sitting in on those hearings, those were members of -- if they live in Connecticut, those are constituents of yours, right? A Q Yes. And those are people you consider to be I

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think you used the word clients also, didn't you? A Q Yes. And there's no way that anyone listening to

you speaking that day on March 11th for looks like four hours would have known that you were talking as a lawyer unless you told them that, correct? A Not specifically. It is a very small world

at the Capitol, however. Q Okay but we're not talking about people who

are members of a small world we're talking about members of the people sitting there watching you testify. No members of the public would know you're a

lawyer when you are talking would they unless you identified yourself? A Unless they had personal knowledge.

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Q

Okay.

Miles Rappaport got up there and

testimony like you did? A Q He certainly did. As did every other secretary of state before

you, correct? A Q Yes. And they -- we've already established they

weren't lawyers? A Q Yes. So there is nothing you said to identify you

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to members of the public who didn't know you that you were speaking as an attorney when you spoke, correct? A Q Correct. I'm going to move onto the next week for a Oh, I'm sorry let me go back to one On the 16th, it said preparation of

moment, ma'am.

thing I missed it.

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ethics filing. A

What was that, ma'am?

Oh, that's just ethics filing that all public

officials are required to file in May. Q Okay. And that's something that as secretary

of state, you're required to file because you are a public official? A Q Yes. And as a public official, you are involved in

matters of public policy, aren't you? A Q Yes. Okay. Moving to the next week. We got a

bunch of entries here relating to a lot -- appears to me to be personal items, correct? A Q A Yes. Okay. So would it be correct --

I'm not sure why they printed out several

times but -Q No problem. Looking at this document, ma'am,

can you identify the time that's reflected here where

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you are engaged in the practice of law? A Yes. We are -- on a couple of occasions I

have meetings with representative dies son and also there is a reference to a league of women voters panel, and when I speak with the league of women voters that is on the 18th, it is to advocate for changes to our election system. Q Okay. Any other indications on your calendar

here of your activities and where you practice law? A Q I think that's it for that anyway. That's great. Moving to the week of March

24th of that year.

Do you see any reflexes of

activities you engaged in where you were seeking -- in where you were engaged in the practice of law? A Q A Yes. And when is that, ma'am? That would be on the 27th of the month

preparing for a press conference on voters with disabilities issues on the 28th, because one of the

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issues with the Help America Vote Act has to do with making sure that voting technology is accessible to people with disabilities. Also there is a meeting with

registrar regarding the centralized voter registration system and still we were engaged in this effort to make sure that all of the towns would participate and it was

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not until 2004, 2005 that all of the towns became part of that system and that all of the towns were part of it. And then there was a press conference on the 28th And again,

regarding voters with disabilities issues. this is a civil rights issue. Q Okay.

Are you the draftsman of this civil

rights law that you're referring to? A I advocated for provisions that were

ultimately put into the Help America Vote Act with respect to the centralized voter registration system

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and one of the marriage tenants in the Help America Vote Act is to ensure that people with disabilities could vote privately and independently and it is part of my job as the chief elections official for the state to make sure that our state complies with federal civil rights law. Q Okay. Now, by the way you had a meeting with

rabbi Alan Lazowski by the way on the 25th? A Q A Yes. Was that a fundraising meeting? No. Rabbi Lazowski is the -- I don't know if

chaplain is the correct word but he is the -- he is often one of the people who says the prayer at the beginning of the session. Q So you were meeting with him in connection

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with him giving the prayer at the beginning of the session? A Q A Q No. That was just a personal meeting.

It wasn't any kind of fundraising activity? I don't believe so. Okay. I'm going to move onto another April.

April 6th and have this -- starts at 206 and have this marked as an exhibit.

(Defendant's Exhibit 14:

Marked for

identification.) calendar April 2003. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Ma'am, you recognize this as part of another

portion of your calendar that we've had produced to us? A Q Yes. And if you would be kind enough to take a

look at page 206 of Exhibit 14, can you identify those entries on this page that you claim support your position that you are engaged in the active practice of law? A Yes. There are meetings with legislators,

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senator Harp and Representative Montilla noted on the 7th. And also there is a policy meeting where we --

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our staff members would often discuss legislative issues. Q A Q A What date is that you're referring to me? I'm sorry, that would be the 9th. Okay. Oh, and also on the 10th of April, there is a

meeting with Maria regarding the direct primary and it may have been around this time that the -- we had to rewrite the direct primary laws because there was a challenge to the Connecticut primary law, so I'm not sure of the time frame but that could have been about that. We had a group that our office put together involving the legislature and the parties regarding

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direct primary and just going back to your policy meeting that you indicated here with Babette Mantilla. Who -- in looking at this document, besides Babette, are you able to identify anyone who participated in that policy meeting. A Generally it was Maria, my legislative

liaison, Babette my chief of staff. Q So it would be your chief of staff, your

scheduling person Maria? A Q My deputy, some of my executive staff. Okay?

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A

Legislative liaison, my scheduler, my chief

of staff, my deputy, my press secretary. Q A Press secretary, too? Yes.

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Q

So that's everything this week.

What about

the next week? A The -- on the 14th I had a speaking

engagement regarding the Help America Vote Act and that was on the 14th. And on the 15th, we had one of our

registrar of voter conferences and that would be at the point where we would -- our office would be presenting information as to how to comply with election laws and it was -- this would have been a time when we would have been explaining to the registrar the new requirements in the Help America Vote Act and what that might mean and we would also be talking about some of our legislative initiatives. Q A Q That's the one you did at the Mohegan Sun? That's right. Any other instances besides that occasion at

the Mohegan Sun when you were practicing law that week? A Yes and there was a Help America Vote Act

meeting on the 16th and under the Help America Vote Act, states were required to prepare state plans and we

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had a very large committee of people who participated in the discussing and creating of our state plan. Q And by the way, ma'am, in those meetings that

you had either at the Mohegan Sun or this second meeting that you mentioned, did you tell everybody you're a lawyer? A Q No. You were speaking from your position as

secretary of state, correct? A Q Correct. Any other occasions in which you claim your

calendar supports your position that you were engaged in activities that week showing that you were practicing law? A Yes. There are other interviews with the

press and there is one on the 15th that says regarding direct primary. I believe this was the time where

there was a lawsuit involving the direct primary and

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the legislature was required to rewrite our primary law. Q A Okay. Anything else on this page? And there is actually on the 16th

That's it.

there is an interview with respect to voting machines. And again in 2003 we were beginning to educate people about how we, as a state, had to comply with the Help

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America Vote Act and federal civil rights law and the steps our state was taking in order to make sure that we were in compliance. Q And your testimony today is that when you

give an interview and educate people about how we're going to comply with the new law, you are acting as an attorney when you give these interviews in your capacity as secretary of state?

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A Q

Yes. Okay. And if I ask you to take a look at the

next week, ma'am, of April 20th. A Q Yes. Could you identify the occasions in which

this calendar reflects that you are engaging in activities that demonstrate that you were engaged in the practice of law? A Yes. Because there are various references to

conversations concerning our centralized voter registration system where we were advocating for mandatory CVR legislation at the state level and it was already part of the Help America Vote Act, so I'm referring to the 22nd. Q And also -What entry

Could you slow down for a moment.

on the 22nd are you referring to there, ma'am? A The telephone conference with Maria.

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Q

Thank you.

That's why I wanted to make sure

we had that.

And also there are various legislative

meetings, there is representative Boukus on the 25th and there is a telephone conversation with Marisa Morello and Mary para seen no regarding Help America Vote funding because there are various types of funding there were available under that law. And we were in

the process of making sure that our state applied for the correct funding? Q this week. A Okay. So we've got those two telephone calls

Any other occasions on this week? Yes. And there is a meeting with Ralph And

Cappanara regarding a direct primary question.

that could have been about the issue with respect to how you go about primarying. Q So that week between the two telephone calls

and the discussion with Ralph, we've got 32 and a half hours worth of time you spent either on the telephone or in person engaged in the practice of law that week? A Q Among other things, yes. Then I'm going to turn you to the following

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week of April 2003. A Again, we have a number of calls and meetings

regarding the Help America Vote Act and other election

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law topics.

So for instance, on Monday the 28th the

conference call regarding the Help America Vote Act meeting with my deputy with two staff people regarding the help America Vote Act. A meeting with

representative Heislope and the interview regarding election day registration in our centralized voter registration system also on the 28th. Opt 29th, we again had one of our HAVA meetings at the legislative office building that we were required to have by the Help America Vote Act to put together our state plan and various conversations with my deputy and the attorney general about Help

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America Vote topics and we were starting as well to begin to make a transition to start looking for which types of voting machines would meeting the Help America Vote Act. And. Q Looks like he even had a telephone call with

your attorney there on the 29th concerning HAVA? A Why, I did. I mentioned that I had a

telephone call with Richard Blumenthal and my deputy Maria Greenslade is an attorney as well. Q Well, you're not saying that your deputy

excuse me, you're not indicating that because your deputy is an attorney that she's your lawyer too,

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right? A Q She was a lawyer who worked in my office. Okay. Did she do legal work?

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A Q going.

Yes. Okay.

Absolutely. And is -- when you -- I'm sorry, keep Any other instances in which you

I'm sorry.

claim you've engaged in the practice of law this week? A Also a conversation that I see with my deputy

on the 2nd of May. Q Okay. Is that the one that says office

issues or voting machines? A Q A That would be voting machines. Okay. So your testimony is --

And office issues could have perhaps

included -Q Your testimony is any time my deputy and I

talk about voting machines, we're practicing law because she's an attorney and I'm an attorney? A Q A No. Okay? Because when we are talking about voting

machines, we are talking about the search and the task that we were charged with under the Help America Vote Act to find voting machines that would comply with the various several rights component of the Help America

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Vote Act, namely that there be voter verified paper trail and also that those machines would be accessible to people with disabilities. Q Now on Thursday the 1st I see you had a

personal meeting there that's included on your office calendar, right? A Q Kelly? A Kelly. Q Oh, I see. Was that one of your volunteer That was a personal meeting at up dike Yes. And that's a personal meeting with up dike

lawyer meetings? A I'm not sure what that was, but it was a

personal meeting. Q Was that a fundraising meeting?

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A Q

I'm not sure. Do you engage in fundraising during the

middle of the day at all? A When I have a campaign, I have a separate

office set up outside of my secretary of the state office and a separate committee set up to assist in fundraising. Q Okay. Could I have the -- I think the I was

witness may have misunderstood my question.

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wondering if we could give it back to her so she could answer the question, please?

(The testimony was read.)

A

What do you mean by middle of the day?

BY MR. GERSTEN:

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Q

Well, I'm looking at a calendar April 27th, If I was

2003 through May 3rd, 2003, for example.

going to refer to the middle of the day I would say somewhere between 11:30 and 2:30. define it? Does that better That

I'm trying to figure out your day.

looks like the middle of your very, very long day. Would I be correct? A Q Yes. Okay. If that definition is accepted by you,

could you tell me do you engage in any fundraising activities during the middle of the day? A Q A It depends. What does it depend on? Whether I have a campaign and whether I am It depends on whether I have a

doing fundraising.

campaign first of all and I do fundraising on my own time. Q Okay. Well, let's take over the past three

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months. A Q

Are you in a campaign? Yes. Okay. Do you engage in any fundraising for

that campaign? A Q I do. And do you engage in any fundraising during

the middle of the day for the campaign that you've been engaged in over the past three months? A Q A Q It depends. And what does it depend upon? The day. Okay. When's the last time you engaged in

any fundraising during the middle of the day? A 29th. Q Okay. And before March -- and you engaged in When I took a day off on I believe March

campaigning fundraising on March 29th, is that your testimony? A Q Yes. And prior to March 29th, did you engage in

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any fundraising during the middle of the day? MR. HORTON: year. MR. GERSTEN: BY MR. GERSTEN: This year. You mean ever or this

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Q A Q

In the three month period since January? Yes. When was the time before March 29th that you

engaged in fundraising your for your current campaign during the middle of the day? A Between that particular 11:30 and 2:00 time

frame is that what we're talking about? Q That's how we agreed to define middle of the Would you feel more comfortable with a different

definition? A No that's fine. The answer is I don't know.

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I know that on the 29th I took the day off to do fundraising. Q that? A Q Yes. So a calendar of March 29th would reflect day Okay. And would your calendar reflect

off, correct? A Q A Q Yes. Personal day? Yes. Just like the personal day or vacation day

that you're taking to have your deposition taken, right? A Yes.

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Q

Now, have you engaged in fundraising during

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the middle of the day when you don't take a full personal day off over the past three months? A Q mind? A Q No. So I ask you that Madam Secretary, because I just want to I could have. Okay. Is there any element of doubt in your

could have sounds rather speculative. make sure you're not speculating. A Q I'm not. Okay.

How many times a week in March of 2010

have you taken time to make fundraising calls during the middle of the day? A Q I don't know. Okay. What would you have to look at? When you say you don't know is it

That's terrible.

because you don't remember or you don't know? A I have many things to do on a particular day,

so I'm not sure. Q Okay. When you say you're not sure is it

because you don't remember or you don't know? A . MR. HORTON: I don't understand the

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difference between those two.

Could you -- I object

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to the question. me. A

It sounds like the same thing to

I don't remember.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q You don't remember. Okay. Is there a

document that you could look at to refresh your recollection as to when you took time off to make phone calls during the middle of the day? A Q No. Does someone keep a calendar for to you keep

track of your phone calls that you make for fundraising during the middle of the day? A Q No one keeps a calendar for that. Okay. Is there a schedule of some type kept

for to you do that?

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it?

A Q

No. Okay. Are there any records of your

activities engaging in fundraising over the past three months of your soliciting people? A Q No. Okay. How do you go about deciding how to do

A Q necessary?

I just take time as necessary. Okay. And how do you determine when it's

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A Q Secretary? A

It depends. And what does it depend on, Madam

Whether I have a campaign and whether I have

a campaign going on and when I decide to take time to

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do so. Q And I'm only asking you over the past three

months because I think you can concede you had a campaign going on over the past three months, correct? A Q Uh-huh. Over the past three months, how many days a

week do you take time out to make telephone calls to people to solicit money? A Q I'm not sure. And when you say I'm not sure, is it that you

don't remember or you don't have any idea how much time you take? A Q I don't remember. Okay. And what document would exist that you

could look at to tell you, did I make those calls that day to refresh your recollection? A I don't have a document that -- to keep track

of that time. Q Okay. Does your campaign keep track of phone

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calls you've made to people to solicit money? A They keep track of commitments that I have. MR. GERSTEN: read back, please? Can I get my question

(The testimony was read.)

A

Yes.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q record? A Q My fundraising staff. Okay. Is there someone in charge of your Who keeps -- who at your campaign keeps that

fundraising staff? A Q Omar Alam. And is there a document that Omar keeps that

indicates that the secretary has come over to make this phone call to Joe Smith to solicit money on a such and such a day?

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A Q

Yes. And does the document reflect that you made

the phone call? A Q Yes. And does the document reflect the day you

made the phone call?

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A Q

Yes. And does the document reflect the number or

names of people that you called that day? A Q Can you ask that again? Sure. Does the document that Omar keeps

reflect the number of calls or names of people you called to solicit money that day? A Q Yes. And does the document reflect whether you

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made if phone call during the middle of the day or some other time period? A Q No. If you looked at the document, would it

refresh your recollection whether or not you made the phone calls during the middle of the day? A Q No. They would just reflect you made phone calls

that period of the day? A Q Yes. If we took your calendar? MR. HORTON: sorry. MR. GERSTEN: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q If we took that document and we compared it I'll restate it. What period of day? I'm

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to the calendars you've produced here, would we be able to tell when the phone calls were made to these people? A Q A No. And why is that, Madam Secretary? We just don't date stamp everything or time

stamp everything. Q Okay. We'll get back to it.

Now, moving to the next set of calendars. We're all the way now up to 2004. marked? MR. HORTON: While she's marking that I I didn't get 2003, Can I get this

would like to just have a second. by the way.

(Defendant's Exhibit 15:

Marked for

identification.) May 2004 calendar. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 3:32. Off the record,

(Recess:

3:32 pm to 3:41 pm.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Beginning of tape

24 25

number 4.

On the record 3:41. MR. HORTON: Eliot, in an effort to

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move things along I've spoken to my client over the break and she's going to stipulate as follows, that the Exhibit 14, which is the 2003 official diary is typical of all the years since 2003 and that, you know, certainly won't show any more of what we're trying to prove in our case and what you see in 2003 for any of the years since then. And that she -- in

none of these cases in the years since has she used -mentioned that she was an attorney when she was acting as a the secretary of the state. So I offer that so

to move things along that -- there aren't things that we're going to be able to claim in any of the years since 2003 says a had a, we've done more of what we're

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claiming as legal work than we showed in 2003 in terms of documentation. forward. In terms of this diary for 2003

That 2003 diary is typical for the years

since after and before for that matter. MR. GERSTEN: I appreciate that I wish

you had told me off the record so we could put together a stipulation that would work. And I really

don't want to take up transcript time in some extended dialogue. MR. HORTON: then for just a second. MR. GERSTEN: Sure. Can we go off the record

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Off the record 3:43.

(Recess:

3:43 pm to 4:12 pm.)

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GERSTEN: Q stipulation. number 4.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record, 4:12. MR. GERSTEN:

Beginning of tape

And for the record, Wes,

while we tried mightedly, it's pretty clear we couldn't reach a stipulation that worked correct MR. HORTON: We did not reach a

MR. GERSTEN:

We can continue to try.

Madam Secretary I'm going to ask you to take

a look now at the 2004 calendar? A Q Yes. And I'm going to ask you to identify the

entries for this time period which is again randomly selected as May through -- May through the first week of June 2004. And could you identify those activities

that are reflected here that you claim support your position that you are engaged in the practice of law? A Yes. One is on the 4th of May, the policy

meeting that we had at the Capitol with my executive staff and also my conversation with Maria about

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legislative issues.

I'm wondering about the 1:30 to

12:00:30 taping of the news maker show because I can't see what the topic was but if it was about the Help America Vote Act or election reform, because this was a time period when our office was working on direct primary legislation that could be it. So that's 4th.

And then I would always go to phone conversations with Larry para seen no, my press secretary and Lou Button who is an attorney in our legislative lease is a son. And/or elections attorney

regarding legislation probably direct primary and Help America Vote, since that seems to be the topic that was being considered by the legislature in our office. And

also there is another meeting with my deputy where we would go through a wide variety of -Q A And what date is that, ma'am? Sorry. That would be May 6th.

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6th?

Q Maria? A

That would be the hour long meeting with

Right.

And then another same meeting with

Maria between 1:00 and 2:00 about the Help America Vote Act and our office's compliance with that and legislative issues on the 7th. Q And ma'am, can I just refer you back to the It has a Windsor down committee meeting. That

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would be the democrats, correct? A Yes. And actually, there is a republican

counsel committee meeting -- excuse me dinner on the 7th that I would just point out to you that I went to the next day. Q Okay. But you're not counting that one as

the practice of law? A No. That was an awards ceremony.

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Q client. A Q

Okay.

So we found one dealing with my

Moving onto the next week, ma'am? Yes. Could you identify the activities during this

week that you claim support your position that you are engaged in the active practice of law? A The policy meeting from 10:00 to 11:00 on And also my meeting with Maria on

Wednesday, the 12th. the 13th of May. Q Okay.

And ma'am, I see you have noted here Did you celebrate all

the Jewish holiday Lag Bermer. the Jewish holidays? A

No, I don't but we wanted to be sensitive

because we had a comment from a legislator that our office scheduled an event on the Jewish holidays so we tried to be sensitive about that and put that on the calendar. There are other holidays on the calendar as

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well. Q There are, it's just that's one I don't think

I ever heard of before? A Q A Q Me neither. Have you learned what it celebrates? No. Okay. Sorry. Moving onto the next week would you be

kind enough to identify those activities that you claim support your position that you are engaged in the active practice of law? A That would be on the 17th of May, my There

conversation with Maria about primary issues.

are, as you head toward primary season, we often have issues in large cities with respect to primary questions. And so I have a meeting with Maria about

that where we are called upon to advise the candidates and party members about legal issues with respect to primaries. Q Do you recall what the primary issue was in

connection with Bridgeport that you were referring to?

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A

They have a lot of primary issues and every

primary season you can count on -- you can count on getting calls from many large cities on primary topics. I can't recall specifically what that was.

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Q A

Okay. Again, a -- I would note meeting with Maria

on Tuesday, the 18th from 2:00 to 3:00, and from 3:30 to 4:30 and it looks like not only was I meeting with my deputy regarding HAVA, but there were certifications that we had to sign, probably with respect to receipt of federal funds. On the 19th of May I had a meeting with my deputy from 1:00 to 2:00 and also a policy meeting with my executive staff from 10:00 to 11:00. Q A And what date was that, ma'am? That would be the 19th of May.

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Q A

Okay. And Friday, there is a news makers taping I'm

not sure what the topic was, but it could have been about legislation. Q So -- but I'm not certain.

So you would consider if it's about

legislation, that supports your position that you're engaged in the practice of law? A Yes to the extent that it involves

legislative advocacy. Q And turning onto the next week, ma'am. Could

you tell us the instances that are reflected in your scheduling that demonstrate you were engaged in the practice of law?

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A

Yes.

On the 24th of May I spoke at the

reading league of women voters annual meeting with

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provisions in the Help America Vote Act and what our state was doing to comply with it and particularly with respect to new voting machines and also there is a conference call, it's not in chronological order on that same day on the 24th, and you see representative Kirkley bay called regarding the registrar of voters primary in Hartford and I think this one was between Ms. Surge on and Ms. Alvis and that was -- there was a lot of issues with respect to that primary and who could serve as checkers and whether someone who is a registrar and is a candidate in that registrar of voters primary had conflict of interest issues. Q And you provided that advice as a function of

your office of secretary of state, correct? A Correct. And then on the 25th, more

conversations with our deputy and representative Kirkley bay about that primary and Hartford and speaking at a league of women voters meeting in North Haven on Help America Vote issues and our state's efforts to comply with that. Also on the 26th, a

policy meeting with my executive staff. Q A Okay. And a meeting with my deputy between 9:00 and

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9:30 on the 27th of May. Q And looking at the next page, ma'am, could

you identify the activities that are reflected on your calendar that support your position that you were engaged in the active practice of law? A Okay. Meeting with representative Barry on

the 1st and on the 1st I -- looks I did some constituent correspondence. I did not put down the

subject, but that could have been involving me going through legislation or the legal rights and responsibilities of a constituent. The policy meeting on the 2nd of June between 11:00 and 12:00. And 1:30 to 2:00 there was a question There were a number of

by Paul Hugh's regarding LLC's.

pieces of legislation at various points that have been proposed regarding LLC's, and probably had to do with

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one of those legislative initiatives. And another Maria meeting on Friday the 4th between 10:00 and 11:00. Q Okay. So we've got about five hours spent on

doing work according to your calendar that week that you claim was done in connection with your practice of law, correct? A Q Yes. Now, ma'am, are you aware of any statute

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authorizing you to provide legal advice to a constituent? A Q A Yes. What statute is that? That would -- 9 dash 3 and 4 provide for

legal opinions to election officials who are

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constituents.

And to provide advice to election

officials and others about compliance with election law. Q And is it your testimony that when these

opinions are issued by your office, this is an activity that you engage in that is in the practice of law? A Could I have that question again. MR. GERSTEN: her, please? Would you reread it to

(The testimony was read.)

A

Yes.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q So every opinion that comes out of your

office is something that you claim demonstrates that you as an individual are engaged in the practice of law? A Which opinions are we speaking about?

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Q A Q

Any legal opinion issued by your office? Yes. So every legal opinion that's issued by your

office is done pursuant to a view you have that that demonstrates that I, Susan Bysiewicz, as an individual, am engaged in the practice of law? A Yes, because I supervise the attorneys in my

office who provide them and they speak to me about them. Q Well, I've noticed in all these calendars

that we've gone through almost five -- five years worth, there don't appear to be many references to your meetings with staff attorneys in your office. there? A No, because most of these meetings are However, it is the Are

meetings outside of our office.

case, as I believe I mentioned, that when I testify at a legislative hearing, often my attorneys Mike Kozik, Ted Bromley, Lou Button, would meet me beforehand, come with me, often our attorneys are present at policy

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meetings. Q Would you agree with me, ma'am, that for the

five years we've looked at so far, there's been no reference to Mike Kozik anywhere? A No.

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Q

Okay.

And we did a computer run, ma'am, and

there is about 15,000 entries on your computer covering your 11 year term as secretary of state. Would it

surprise you to know that Ted Bromley appears on six of them? A Q It's not surprising. Okay. Now, are there any other documents one

could look at to determine when you have engaged in supervision of your attorneys working for you that supports your position that you are engaged in the

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practice of law? A The documents that the attorney general Are examples of those. Those are examples?

provided to you. Q A Q Okay. Uh-huh.

So is it your testimony that if your name

appears on the document as being the secretary of state, that demonstrates that you supervise the attorneys who wrote it? A Q Yes. Okay. And is it your testimony that each and

every one of those documents that were provided by the attorney general's office are documents that you participated in drafting? MR. HORTON: Objection. Would you say

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the end of that question again.

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 them? A Q No. Okay. A drafting.

MR. GERSTEN:

Participate in

MR. HORTON: Some of them, yes.

In drafting.

Okay.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Okay. Did you participate in drafting all of

But it's your testimony that because

you are the head of the agency and because the attorneys work for you, that demonstrates that you are engaged in the practice of law when these attorneys are issuing legal opinions on behalf of the secretary of state? A Yes, because often I am involved in

discussions about the topic with them, with my constituents, with election officials, with my deputy and executive staff and others. MR. GERSTEN: We'll go to 2006, please.

This time it's September for a change.

(Defendant's Exhibit 16:

Marked for

identification.) September 2006

25

calendar.

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BY MR. GERSTEN: Q If you could look at Exhibit 16, ma'am. And

where does it indicate on this document that you are engaged in the practice of law on the first page, number 385? A I am not certain about the topic of the press I'm going to assume that it's --

conference. Q A

What day is that, ma'am? Election related. That would be on the 11th.

Because there was preparation going on for that on the 11th from 12:00 to 1:30 and a meeting with respect to it from 3:00 to 3:30 and there are meetings and interviews regarding voting machine selection and this may have been about the time that we selected a type of

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

voting machine that we thought would comply with the Help America Vote Act I just can't be sure because, you know, I don't have any more information. But it looks

like that from some of the other entries that appear later on in the week on the 14th. Q So I would be correct that your testimony is

that in connection with the secretary of state's implementation of a mechanism to comply with the Help America Vote Act, you personally are engaged in the practice of law? A Yes. Absolutely. Because it would be my job

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to make sure that our state complies with federal civil rights laws and also with our election law. And so I

would count the meeting from 12:00 to 1:30 with Leslie and 3:00 to 3:30 with Dan also preparation the next morning and the meeting with our voter advocates group,

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these were people who were concerned about having a voter verified paper trail and were concerned about the use of electronic voting machines. I would include the

press conference from 12:00 to 1:00 and the various advocacy around that and on the 14th, from 10:00 to 12:00 we were doing a demonstration of the voting equipment at the Sharon town hall to election officials and mayors and first selectmen in that northwest corner area and there was media interviews on that day as well both in the morning from 9:00 to 9:30 and from 7:00 to 7:45 with respect to that. Q All right. And that's all considered by you

to be the practice of law? A Q Yes. Great. And what about this mad son Do you see that

democratic committee cocktail party. noted here? A Q A Yes.

That wasn't the practice of law, right? No. But I would point out that on Saturday,

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the 16th from 2:00 to 4:00 I was speaking to the disability collaborative and I remember speaking at that event about the voting machines that are -- that we were choosing to be accessible to people with disabilities. Q And in the course of that, you did not

identify yourself as an attorney when you were speaking at the disability collaborative forum, did you? A Q No. Now, this mad son democratic town committee

cocktail party, was that a function you engaged in as a secretary of state? A the state. Q Okay. Moving onto September 17th. Would you I was invited because I was the secretary of

be kind enough to identify those entries on your calendar that reflect your practice of law? A Yes.

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Q

Ma'am I'm going to interrupt you for a minute Your testimony

because you made one statement earlier.

is when you demonstrate how the voting machines work you are engaged in the practice of law? A Yes, because I am explaining the state and

federal law requirements and how our -- how our state was complying with those. And also, you know, doing

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voter education as well. Q Thank you. I'm sorry I interrupted you. You

were about to talk about the 17th? A 18th. Q Okay. And you didn't identify yourself as an That was from 2:00 to 4:00 on September

attorney when you gave that speech, did you? A No. MR. HORTON: We'll stipulate to that

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for all cases. MR. GERSTEN: A Thank you.

And from 12:00 to 12:30 on the 20th, I was

interviewed by Steve, and I believe it's Thrall, on KRIS radio and we were starting to explain the telephone system that is available for -- that we were hoping to make available for people with disabilities. And there was a voter advocate's meeting from 6:00 to 8:00 at the L O B. I'm wondering about the time

because it -- that -- and those voter advocates were people who were concerned about making sure that we adopted legislation in Connecticut to provide for audits and a paper trail. And then on the 21st of

September, our office and I conducted a voter -- a voting demonstration of the voting machines that we had selected to comply with the Help America Vote Act. And

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from 11:00 to 11:30 about visited with Meriden record journal because we wanted to build support for legislation that we were beginning to seek support for an audit legislation and also for the voting machines that we had chosen for our state. And then the town

clerk conference at -- between 12:00 to 3:30 on the 21st where I spoke to the state's town clerks about our preparations for the November election. with the Help America Vote Act. Also on the 22nd, a voting machine demonstration at Bristol city hall with election officials there from 10:00 to 11:00. Q All right. So I noted that and it looks like And compliance

you spent a total of seven hours that week engaged in activities reflected in your calendar showing that you're engaged in the practice of law? A I apologize but I would just take you back to

an interview with Sam Gingerella from 1:00 to 2:00 about the voting machines. And again, that is under

the topic of education and advocacy for the Help America Vote Act compliance and the other -Q So when this secretary of state is being

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interviewed about how the state is intending to implement and comply with the federal law, you personally are engaged in the active practice of law?

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A Q

Yes. Moving on to page 387 of the Bates stamp Could you

documents which starts with September 24th. tell us -A Yes.

On the 26th of September from 10:00 to

11:00 30, and -- we -- our office did a demonstration and program with election officials in New London about the voting machine technology and our compliance with Help America Vote Act and then an interview thereafter with channel 3 from 11:30 to 11:45. And also we did

another demonstration on the voting machine equipment on the 27th between 10:00 and 12:00 in Norwich. And

from 1:30 to 3:00 we had a meeting with the league of

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women voters talking about our office's compliance with the Help America Vote Act and also with legislation because we meet with the league on a regular basis and advocate for changes to election law in collaboration with the league of women voters. Another voting machine demonstration in Windham on the 28th of September from 10:00 to 11:00 with an interview there. And an editorial board

meeting about the new voting technology with the romantic chronicle from 11:00:10 to 11:45. sure had a this -Q Okay. That's fair enough. So if we subtract And I'm not

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the interviews with the media regarding the entries on this calendar, on this particular calendar, the only reflection that you engaged in the practice of law

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would be your league of women voters meeting, do I follow that correctly? A I'm sorry are we subtracting the voting

machine meetings which were public meetings designed to educate people about our -Q No I'm sorry I'm including that, too. Got it. Okay.

Thank you for that correction.

Good point.

So if I do my totaling up here of the time you claim you spend engaged in the practice of law, we probably have about six hours that week, right? A From this calendar, and again, I would just

continue to say that there is other work that I do that doesn't necessarily get reflected on this calendar. But if we're focused on the calendar, yes. is yes. Q Well, again, I don't want to argue with you But The answer

ma'am and that's a fair comment you're making.

when I asked you at the prior session what documents we would look to to determine what you do every day, you said my calendar would be what I would look at. A Q Months -This is the calendar that we would be looking

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at, correct? A Yes. But again, my calendar affects --

namely reflects public events, not everything that I might do during the course of a day. Q Well when you call them public events we know

you also have personal days on here, personal meetings because we've seen them, right? A Q Yep. And when you call them public events, we have

a lot of meeting with Tammy, that's within your office, right? A That's an internal meeting but not all my

internal meetings are reflected. Q Okay. Have you seen any internal meetings in

any of the samples we've selected here of meetings with staff attorneys? A There was one that I just saw with Lou on

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Exhibit 16 that I didn't point out. Q A You did point that one out. Okay. That was one?

So not right here with the exception

of meetings that I might have noted with my deputy, who is an attorney. Q So is it your testimony that these calendars

do not accurately reflect how you spend your time as secretary of state?

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A

Doesn't reflect every minute of my day, no.

And I might have missed on the 12th of September a meeting with Leslie, Dan and Lucian Pavlak, who was the person engaged in working with our -- and is engaged in working with our town clerks and registrar with respect to compliance on the Help America Vote Act and I don't believe I mentioned that and I just noticed it.

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q

That's fair enough.

That isn't considered to

be the administration of elections, is it? A Q What is it? Is implementation of compliance with the Help

America Vote Act the equivalent of administration of elections? A Q A I would say not. What's the difference? There are -- well, there are preparations

that go on by our office for elections, and also by election officials for election, but when we're doing that we are complying with state election law and federal election law and it is my job to make sure that our election officials do comply with those. Q And so what's the difference between what you

are describing as what I'll call the practice of law for the purposes of our discussions and the administration of election laws?

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A

Well, running -- I would say compliance with

election law and administration of elections are one and the same in that we are helping our clients or our election officials to carry out election law in a way that complies with state and federal law. Q And is it your testimony now that you

consider the administration of the election laws to be the practice of law? A Well, let me just clarify that there are

aspects of election administration, for instance, that don't involve the active practice of law. A for

instance, making sure that there are enough poll workers for our elections and that's an issue that we have faced that's hard to get pole workers and we actually had a program in anticipation of the 2009 election to train young people to be pole workers. that is an example of something I would put in the category of election administration, making sure that town clerks and registrar who are in compliance with the Help America Vote Act by making sure that there are telephones set up for people with disabilities to vote And

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in every polling place and that the privacy laws that are in -- reflected in our state constitution are followed by making sure people have privacy folders when the ballots are distributed, I would say that that

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is -- that that encompasses the practice of law. Q A Q Oh, it does? Yes. Making sure forms are submitted and complying

with that portion of the statute is considered the practice of law? A Making sure that voters vote is private and

making sure that our constitution is complied with and educating election officials about that would be the practice of law. Q And it's the practice of law because you're

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

an attorney and not necessarily because you're the secretary of state; am I correct? A I am charged with giving advice to election

officials and making -- and giving legal advice in 9 dash 3 and 9 dash 4. Q And I appreciate that, ma'am, but at the

beginning of our deposition you indicated that those secretary of states before you who followed that same statute were not practicing law simply because they were following that statute; is that correct? A Correct. However, I would argue that if they

were lawyers and engaging in those activities, they would be. Q And that is in fact your argument in this

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case, isn't it? MR. HORTON: Eliot, we've been over

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that.

Please.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q A Q Ma'am? Yes. Now, we've covered a sample of 2006. I Moving

along to 2000 -- looks like I skipped 2008. apologize for that. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q

Showing you what we're going to have the

court reporter mark as Exhibit 17, starting with 487 through 494 covering the time period August 2008, ma'am?

(Defendant's Exhibit 17:

Marked for

identification.) calendar 2008. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Looking at the first page, what would you

identify as your activities you engaged in reflected on this calendar that constitute the practice of law? A I believe this week was spent at the

democratic national convention, so I would not argue that that was any of those activities show that. Q Okay. So as of this week we had no time

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spent on the practice of law? A Q Not reflected at this -- on this calendar. Right for this week's calendar for the

secretary of state there is no activities reflecting your engaging in the practice of law? A Actually, one of these interviews with Chaz

and AJ, Chaz was considering running for the general assembly and wanted to know -- oh, and he wanted to run not as part of a major party and he wanted to know what he would have to do in order to run and I believe it was for the state Senate as someone who's not running on either of the republican or democratic party ballot label and I was explaining to him what he would have to do in terms of collecting a petition of signatures or perhaps trying to get another party that had ballot

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access to nominate him.

So -- and I would say had a

that would be giving a constituent advice about how to run for a particular office and that would be engaging in the practice of law. Q A Q A Did you tell him you're a lawyer? I did not. What's Chaz's name? You know I honestly couldn't tell you what

his last name is, but he's the host of the -- of a morning show based in Milford.

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Q A Q A Q

And who's AJ? That's the other -- that's his co host. Okay. So this is --

The name of their show. This is a radio show that you had and you

told them how the secretary of state would post

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something about petitions and stuff like that? A I told him what he would have to do if he

would like to be a candidate for the general assembly. Q I guess. A Moving onto the next week, Labor Day weekend, Do you see any entries that reflect your -Yes. From 9:00 to 12:00 where I say

returning constituent calls and constituent correspondence, to the extent that those calls were to election officials who are my constituents or people who wanted to get advice about elections, which is often the case during the fall, that was the practice of law. Q Ma'am, can you tell me what documents would

reflect who you called that day or what constituents you talked to that day? A I'm not sure if I wrote a letter on that That would be something that I could

particular day. point to.

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Q you wrote? A Q

How many letters do you send out a day that

I think it depends on the day. Last week how many letters Madam Secretary

did you issue with your signature that you drafted? A Q A Q A I'm not sure. More than ten? I'm not sure. More than 100? It depends on the day. And we do send out

regular communications to our election officials, so it would just depend. Q I'm afraid I wasn't clear. I'm not asking

you what your office issued, I'm asking you, Madam Secretary, how many letters did you issue last week that you drafted personally yourself? A Q I'm not sure. Is it that you don't remember or you just

don't know?

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A

I don't remember.

I can tell you this:

We

do constituent service reports in our office and so I could tell you in 2010 we had -- excuse me, in 2007 we had approximately a 400 constituent letters that I worked on with my director of constituent services, and in 2008 we had I believe 5 60 or so. And then in 2009,

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approximately 400.

And I either write those letters

personally or work on them with my constituent service director and I don't write every letter, sometimes I make changes, sometimes I collaborate and sometimes I speak with the constituent and suggest further research or work and our constituent service director will follow up and then I will sign correspondence that we sent to our constituent. Q That raises a very good question. You're not

claiming that every piece of correspondence you send

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out to your constituents is an example of you practicing law, is it? A it is. Q Maybe I didn't state my question carefully. It depends on what the -- it depends on what

Are you claiming, Madam Secretary, that every piece of correspondence that you send out to constituent services constitutes an example of you personally practicing law? A Q No. And there are many times when you send out

correspondence to constituents in which you say you can't do anything to help them, they should go get their own attorney; isn't that correct? A What's the question again, please?

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Q

Is it correct, ma'am, that many times you

have correspondence with constituents in which you say you cannot give them the legal advice they seek and they should get private counsel? A Q I have said that on occasion, yes. This is getting crazy. Sorry what was the

last question?

(The testimony was read.)

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Do you say that -- now, you've indicated that

you've probably written about a thousand letters to constituents since 2007, 2008, 2009, you were pretty clear how many had gone out? A Q I was just -- yes. Is there a record that you could refer us to

that would indicate where your numbers came from? A Yes. For those particular years, yes,

because we asked our director of constituent services to keep track and that's how I have those numbers. Q A And what's that record called? He does -- it's a report that he prepares on

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an annual basis.

It's like an annual report where he

writes about our constituent correspondence and types

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of issues and who we've helped and -Q And so if I were to indicate to the Office of

the Secretary of State that I'd like to get a copy of that record, what is it I have to indicate that I'm looking for in order to get that so that no one questions the document we're looking for? A That would be the annual reports prepared by

our direct tower of constituent services Val Ramos. MR. GERSTEN: Okay. STENOMARK. Mr. Attorney general.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q And you're not indicating here, ma'am, that

everyone of those correspondence ease constitute evidence of you engaging in the practice of law,

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correct? A Q Not everyone. Okay. And out of that survey of 1,000, how

many of those pieces of correspondence do you actually review and sign yourself personally? A Q Almost all of them. And, in fact, you gave us three examples in

your answers to interrogatories that you wanted us to rely onto say that this is proof of my practicing law; isn't that correct? A Yes.

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Q

And would you include your correspondence

with that pine or charred country club as something you engaged the practice of law in? A I'd have to see that.

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Q A Q

Okay. Okay.

We'll come back to it.

In going to the 2008 calendar just for a

moment, ma'am, looking at September -- the week of September 7th. Would you be kind enough just to

indicate which activities are evidenced in this document reflecting your practice of law? A Yes. On the 8th, preparation for On 11:30 to 12:30. I'm sorry. Would

congressional testimony. Q Yes. Okay.

Go ahead.

that be congressional testimony in the United States Congress? A It was I believe for the United States Senate

because senator Feinstein was holding hearings with respect to President Bush's policy to ban voter registration at veterans hospitals, and that was regarding -Q You didn't identify yourself as an attorney

when you gave that testimony, did you? MR. HORTON: I've stipulated to that. You've already been --

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A

No.

BY MR. GERSTEN: Q If I understand the stipulation attorney

Horton is making, am I correct, ma'am, that none of the examples you provided to us from your calendar that we've talked about today, in not one of these have you identified yourself as an attorney when you say, this is proof that I engaged in the practice of law, am I correct? A Q Correct. Any other examples you'd like to point out to

us that you want to say support your claim that you are engaged in the active practice of law? A Yes. I would say that as we were preparing

for this press conference on this issue of the president's ban on voter registration at veteran's hospitals, we -- that that was the practice of law along with that press conference and a discussions with

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the reporters on that day afterward about it. Q Okay. Now, during the following week, -- I

can represent to you ma'am that I got -- my secretary gave me a note that judge she would done didn't want to interfere with the deposition but he did want us to be made aware that some TV station wants to broadcast some hearing tomorrow with your case. And I was passing it

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along to -MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: that along to your lawyer. MR. HORTON: BY MR. GERSTEN: Q 14th. Ma'am, take a look at the week of September I see you had a meeting on the 19th with George It's not important. It's the -Identifies just passing

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Collie at the Enfield senior center do you see that? A Q A Q I do. Okay. Was that a fundraising event, ma'am?

I don't -- I don't -- I'm not sure. Well, what would you and Mr. Collie be

meeting about if it weren't for fundraising? A Q I'm not sure -- I don't know what that was. All right. Is George Collie someone you've

solicited money from? A Yes. But I don't remember on that particular

day what -Q Not a problem. Would you agree, ma'am,

George Collie has in fact contributed to your campaigns in the past, correct? A He has. MR. HORTON: from the previous question? Did you finish your answer

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THE WITNESS: MR. HORTON:

I'm sorry, what was -I thought you were

Pardon me.

I would also like to add that I

remember talking to -- and I can't remember if this was a meeting about this, but George Collie wanted to discuss with me memorabilia that he had at a storage facility of Ella Grasso's -- he had boxes of Ella Grasso's memorabilia. was. I'm not exactly sure what it

And I remember talking to him about that stuff And I remember making some calls.

that he had of hers.

He was hoping to give it to the state library or perhaps the -- her -- the college that she went to, mount hole yolk. do. We were talking about what he could

And I can't remember if that meeting was about But I remember having

that stuff that he had.

conversations with him about that and I can't remember if it was that particular time or another time. Q A Okay. And who's Matt Conway?

Matt Conway was someone that is a state

representative. Q And both of these fellows are democrats,

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correct? A Q Correct. Now, on this week, you're not claiming those

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are activities engaged in the practice of law, are you? A Q No. Okay. And during this week, can you identify

those examples that you claim support your position that you personally are engaged in the practice of law while serving as secretary of state? A On the 18th of September I spoke at the

annual town clerk's fall conference where we would speak about legislative changes affecting elections and also talking about preparations for the presidential election, which would be the first presidential

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election that we have held with the HAVA compliant voting machines. And also meeting with Leslie on -Are the

between 12:00 and 1:00 on Wednesday, the 17th. things that I -Q A Okay. See.

And also on the evening of the 17th

preparing for remarks and for my talk to the town clerks the evening of the 17th. Q And on the 16th, the lunch with Bob Martino,

is that the same Bob Martino that is here? A Q of then? It is. Do you recall what you and Mr. Martino spoke

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A Q

I'm not sure. I've got one more set 6 calendars we can do

for you and then we can try to figure out what we're

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going to do.

This one I'm going to introduce the two

together as being -MR. GERSTEN: What number are we up to?

Court reporter court reporter 18. MR. GERSTEN: 18 and 19. Make her out

look one 18, make the other one 19.

(Defendant's Exhibit 18:

Marked for

identification.) calendar January 2010. (Defendant's Exhibit 19: Marked for

identification.) calendar 2010. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Mad am secretary could you take a look at

what we've marked now as Exhibit 18 and 19? A Q A Yes. Okay. Yes. Do you recognize 18 and 19?

(Mr. Reynolds left the deposition.)

Q

Okay.

Exhibit 18 covers your appointments as

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secretary of state, correct? A Q A Q Yes. And number 19, ma'am? Is my town committee and campaign schedule. I'll represent to you, ma'am that number 19

was the one that we had to go to court to get a copy of? A Q Yes. And many of the entries on 19 are the same

entries on 18; isn't that correct? A They may be. I haven't had a chance to look

through the whole thing. Q A minute. Q Absolutely. I'll take full responsibility Take a moment? These pages are out of order. Just give me a

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for them being out of order because I tried to make the copies myself so I probably messed it up. A Q A is 89. Q A You're familiar with it now, ma'am? Okay. But -- okay. I'm just not seeing I think this could be a duplicate. Sorry about that? I don't know. Let's see. 81, 82, 83. This

January 1st here because I have my -- if we start at

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January 10th, that's fine. Q A We can start at January 10th. I'm confused because these calendars are --

it's hard to look at them like this but can we -- why don't you ask me about particular days and then I'll try to find the day. Q I'll try it a different way. Looking at

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Exhibit 19 for a moment. that? A campaign. Q Okay.

Can you tell me who prepares

That would be -- that would be Zack at my

And when Zack prepares it, there's

entries in here, for example, creator David at Susan 2010. A Do you see that? Oh, that could have been David Mason, when he

was at our campaign in December, that was for a forum that we probably got an invitation to, you know, I don't know, a month or two months prior to the event. Q Okay. But what I'm trying to figure out is

it says David for S O T S calendar. A calendar. Q A Right. The secretary of the state campaign

See it says S O T S at the top. Right. So what does that mean? This is my

I'm the secretary of the state.

campaign calendar.

I don't think there's any

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significance beyond that. Q Okay. So what this basically reflects then,

this is the calendar as it relates to you, personally? A Q A Q The campaign, yes. Okay? Engagements. Now, in looking at what you did as recently My campaign.

as it looks like the most recent calendar we have is dated March 7th through the 13th. A Q A Q Okay. Let me just find that.

Page 5 67? I'm sorry March what. March 7th through the 13th. That's the last

one we received. A Q Okay. Can you indicate on this page what entries

reflect you engaging in the practice of law? A On the 8th, testifying at the government And that would

administration and elections committee.

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be that event. Q All right. So for that week we have about 30

minutes of time supporting your claim that you engaged in the practice of law? A Yes.

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Q

And you're not going to indicate to us that

anything that is contained in your campaign calendar would reflect activities that you claim aren't supportive of your practice of law? A Q No. And on the day you testified at the GAEC,

were you accompanied by counsel? A Usually I am. Usually I have Ted Bromley and

Lou Button and sometimes Leslie Mara. Q And on that day, weren't you asked questions

that you said I don't know the answer, you've got to

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ask -- or words to the effect of you should ask our legal counsel? A Bromley. Q Right. And Ted Bromley would be the one it's We may have had a question directed at Ted

directed to because he's the one giving the legal opinion from the secretary of state's office, correct? A Q A question. Q Okay. MR. GERSTEN: Well, Wes it's a little No. From his position? He may have just known the answer to that

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1

bit after 5:00.

It's probably a good time to try to

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end this endurance contest. MR. HORTON: Okay. But Eliot, I'm and

my client are prepared to go forward tomorrow morning. If this. MR. GERSTEN: start, Wes. MR. HORTON: As early as possible What time you want to

because I'm going to claim a protective order by 2:00 tomorrow afternoon this F this isn't done. no sense in making speeches. There is

We will come back And I will

tomorrow morning to get this over with.

have your document on the brief to the Second Circuit with me tomorrow morning assuming we can put our hands on it. morning. MR. GERSTEN: questions just so I know. BY MR. GERSTEN: Q Ma'am, appreciate your accommodations to us Just a few other So let's get this over with. 9:00 tomorrow

here and I hope you appreciate we've been accommodating your perception that you got to have this heard quickly. Are there any -- is there anyone that you

intend to bring to court to testify that they could

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support your claim that you engage in the active

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practice of law? A Could you ask that question again. MR. GERSTEN: reporter? Go ahead, madam court

(The testimony was read.)

A

You are asking who I intend to bring or would And I would have

I intend to bring someone to do that? to discuss that with my counsel. Q Okay.

And you made reference before that

Leslie Mara has notes of discussions regarding the practice of law issues we've been discussing here. you recall that? A I said that she sometimes makes notes of Do

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conversations that we have with election officials who are asking for advice. Q Okay. Just so you're aware of this, ma'am, I

don't care if you go back and ask her or not but we've asked for those kind of notes to be produced in this case and we've been told they don't exist. So if you

have them or you have access to them through your subordinate who works for you would be a good idea to have those with you tomorrow? MR. ZINN-ROWTHORN: We have made the

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request and we are verifying the response to the request so we'll have an answer, you know, hopefully by tomorrow morning. 9:00 tomorrow morning. MR. GERSTEN: Okay. Great why don't we I can't promise we'll have it by

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try to reconvene about 9:30 to get it done. MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: MR. HORTON: MR. GERSTEN: 9:30. 9:30 won't work. How about 9:00. How about 9:30. Off the record,

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:22.

(The deposition adjourned at 5:22 pm.)

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