Debate on Orkut

Year : 2007
Topic : Celebration of Milad Sharif
Its been years since I started bashing the najdi regime on orkut. Eik bawla aata hai
phudaktay hai... ilzaam lagata hai... phir apnay hi maktaba-e-fiker ki kitaboo aur
kaarnamoo se zaleel ho kar bhaag jata hai ... phir kuch din baad naya bawla aur phir wohi
ghissi pitti kahani... this kept goin on and on since I've joined orkut!
I even asked a few najdi baboons to forward any (literally any) of your high esteemed
mullas and scholars to have an official debate but didnt get any sensible reply so far...
why is that so?
As for Waseem... I can make this thread to reach 160 posts from 16 with all the authentic
denials to your phenomenon.. but whats the use if you're here just NOT to accept
anything but what you thinks!
As a quick reply I would say;
According to you the first ayat (10:57) is all about Quran like this;
"Allah is describing about Quran are His favours to us. And his MERCY!"
Quran *are*?? Salafis got more than 1 Quran!?
Ummm I *guess* you know for whom the word "Rehmatull`il`Aalameen" used in Quran.
That is Rasool Allah (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam).
And as you said;
"and asks us to rejoice to have Quran from his mercythis ayaah doesnt support
you view!"
Now your very own words proves what you're trying to deny. If a man can rejoice to
have Quran as a mercy from Allah then he can surely rejoice to have Rasool Allah
(Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) as the "Mercy for all the universe". What makes it
prohibited? Just that you dont do it or your mullahs/forefathers didnt?
Further you said the same what I think of you;
"But I know you wont admit the meanings of the ayaah as Ive provided. from your
very own interpretation"
now we really should thanks Allah and rejoice by thanking Him for sending us such
a merciful prophet (saw) and Quran for our guidance and betterment! Where does
this ayaah state that we should rejoice for the mercy on the day in which Allah
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bestowed us with it? Or where is it written that we should rejoice by celebrating a

festival"
Ahh.. I appeal all the najdis to be sensible for once your life!
Where does that ayat or even the whole Quran prohibits to rejoice for the greatest mercy
of Allah by celebrating a festival?
Where does that ayat or even the whole Quran prohibits to rejoice for the mercy on the
day in which Allah bestowed us with the greatest mercy?
I mean.... you're denial based on WHAT?
By the way, we Ahle`Sunnah believe that milad can be celebrated and even celebrates
every year, every month in a year , every day in a month, every morning and every night!
Tsk tsk tsk! I feel pity for you. I can imagine the frustration of being humiliated by your
very own words. But for the sake of argument, lets do it again .
and what i said about the ayah...it was supported by the 3 most authentic
tafaseers...that the ayah is about Quran...and the previous Ayah also supports my
view
Did I deny the tafasir you quoted? If yes, tell me how? Who is denying that 10:58 is NOT
about Quran? All I am saying and even you said that muslim should rejoice on Allah's
mercy. Either you're way too frustrated to read my post or you just didnt read it all!
Why you didnt say a word about the title "Rehmatul`il`Aalameen" which is given to
Rasool Allah (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) by none other but Allah?
Lets take a look at Surah Al-Anbiya (21:107)

"We did not send you, O Muhammad (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam), except as a mercy,
that is, to [give] mercy, to all the worlds, [the worlds of] mankind and jinn through you."
(Tafsir al-Jalalayn)
All I said that if muslims can rejoice for the mercy of Allah on the basis of your quoted
ayat and its interpretation then why we cant rejoice on for the MERCY TO ALL THE
WORLDS?
Again, take a look at your earlier post!
"and Allah has described Quran as a mercy.. and asks us to rejoice to have Quran
from his mercy'
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Now in the very same Quran, Allah has described Rasool Allah (Sallallahu Allaihe
Wasallam) as a mercy to all the worlds... and asks us to rejoice to have Rasool Allah
(Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) from his mercy.
Tsk tsk tsk! I am not amazed to see you not saying a single word in reply to this (what I
posted earlier as well in an extent), but yeah... I am gettin bored of it now!
In reply to your babbling about "Bidah" (the most misunderstood word among your
*kind*) I would say, you're way too dumb to be talking about it. You underlined the
word "Every" in that hadith naa? Now lets take a closer look to that word and see where
you stand .
You're talking about;
Kullu bida'tin daiala: "Every innovation is a misguidance".
The stylistic figure of meaning the part by the whole, or nechdoche in English is in
Arabic: 'abbara 'an al-kathratf bi at-kulliyya'. This is illustrated by the use of "kull" in the
46:25 of the Quran in a selective or partial sense not a universal sense:
.......
"destroying, ruining, everything, it passes through, by the command of its Lord, by His
will, that is to say, [destroying] everything that He wants to destroy with it...."
Thus, the dwellings were not destroyed although "all" things had been destroyed. "All"
here means specifically the lives of the unbelievers of 'Ad and their properties except
their houses.
If (according to your very own interpretation) literally "every" bidah is misguidance then
what about the following;
Quran had no zair, zabr, paish etc in Rasool Allah (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam)'s era.
All done by later muslims.
No signs of Ba`jamat Taraweeh till Hazrat Umer (Radi Allahu Anhu)'s era. Hazrat Umer
(Radi Allahu Anhu declared it as an "Excellent Bidah".
And a lot more..
As the last smack... read the following;
"He who inaugurates a good practice (sanna fil-islam sunnatun hasana) in Islam earns the
reward of it, and of all who perform it after him, without diminishing their own rewards

in the least. "

(Tirmizi, pg. 92)

you seems to be full of LOGIC..but aqaid are not based on logics[/red"

Means Salafiya have illogical beliefs ...Haha!! Hats off to Salafiya!
sir, i didnt mean to say that we should rejoice for having Quran on SOME
PARTICULAR day we thank to Allaah every time (when we read Quran) to give us
such a great Book
Neither I meant it that way. You're crying a river over "rejoicing on a particular day" and
yet cant provide any single where we or anyone said that Milad should be celebrated
exclusively on 12th Rabi-ul-Awwal. As I earlier said that you can celebrate Milad every
year, every month, every day, every hour even every second! Now look whose
prohibiting it? We or you?
"not a particular time which is not there in the teachings of Quran and Sunnah!"
Again, you didnt answer any of my query. I asked you before just to show me this ruling?
Where Quran prohibits to celebrate on a particular day? If there any such prohibition
mentioned in Quran, please let us know or else tell us whats the base of your denial? If
Quran doesnt prohibits it then what makes you say that?
I hope this time you'll answer this very simple query
and rejoicing means nothing but to Thank Allah to have such a mercy on us! like
prophet(SW) used to thank Allah for giving him birth so he used to fast at every
Monday!!! if you people want to rejoice than follow the Sunnah.
We do Thank Allah for such the greatest mercy of all times. We do fast. But whats wrong
if we do naat khuwani? Whats wrong if we do milad congregations? Again a simple
query, what is so illegal according to shariah in Milad Congregations or Naat Khuwani?
then you talked foolishly about zair zabar pesh of Quran...firstly it is not a
Biddah...no body changed the language of Quran...the language in which it was
revealed is made Easier! there is not change in the meanings of Quran...!
Haha!! You're not the first one. Every single najdi cries like this when they gets trapped!
Look at your qouted text kid!!
"verily the worst thing is INNOVATION, and EVERY INNOVATION is Bid'ah,
and EVERY BID'AH is GOING ASTRAY, and every ZALALAH (GOING
ASTRAY) will lead you to HELLFIRE"
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Does it say anything about "Changing" things? ummm NO! Its all about
"INNOVATING" things. And you foolishly, yet proudly underlined the word "Every"
just to declare Milad as a bidah so your lame interpretation simply denies literally
"Every" single innovation.
Why twisting your very own interpretation? Is that all you can do?
"than you said BA JAMAAT TARAWEEH its is proved from the sunnah of
prophet(SAW) for 3 days....then our beloved prophet(SAW) stopped doing it so
Allah wont make is compulsory! similery in Bukhari and muslim there is a hadith
that prophet(SW) said...After me follow the sunnah of Khulafay e rashidoon
Again, trapped . You just said ba`jamat Taraweeh is proved from Rasool Allah
(Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) for 3 days. Why you perform it the whole ramzan?
Hahaa... and yeah please do quote that hadiths from bukhari regarding "follow the sunnah
of Khulfa-e-Rashideen". Not that I am denying it, that might help me in an extent .

the hadith of trimidhi...well give its reference so i will check its startus...and i am
sure...celebrating Melaad is not a good biddha as you ppl have appointed a special
day for it...you didnt read my posts carefully
Awh... Dont tell me you never read that hadiths before. Najdis been smacked by this
since ages! Let alone the scholars... it is known even to common muslims! Even though I
gave the reference too. Anyways... you asked for reference naa.. my pleasure!!!
This hadiths can also be found in Mishqat under Bab`ul`Ilm, goes like;
"He who sets a good precedent in Islam, there is reward for him for this (act of goodness)
and a reward for him also who acts according to it subsequently, without any deduction
from their rewards and he who sets in Islam an evil precedent there is upon him the
burden of that, and the burden of him also who acts upon it subsequently, without any
deduction from their burdens."
"Jarir b. Abdullah reported that some desert Arabs clad in woollen clothes came to
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He saw them in sad plight as they had been
hard pressed by need. He (the Holy Prophet) exhorted people to give charity, but they
showed some reluctance until (signs) of anger could be seen on his face. Then a person
from the Ansar came with a purse containing silver. Then came another person and then
other persons followed them in succession until signs of happiness could be seen on his
(sacred) face. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who
introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed after him (by people) he
would be assured of reward like one who followed it, without their rewards being
diminished in any respect. And he who introduced some evil practice in Islam which had
been followed subsequently (by others), he would be required to bear the burden like that
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of one who followed this (evil practice) without their's being diminished in any respect."
(Sahih Muslim, Book 034, Number 6466
The Book of Knowledge (Kitab Al-`Ilm)
Chapter 6: Pertaining To One Who Introduced Something Good Or Evil, Or He
Who Called To Righteousness Or To The Path Of Error.)
Read the chapter's title twice even thrice!
Another Hadith from the same chapter!
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who
called (people) to righteousness, there would be reward (assured) for him like the rewards
of those who adhered to it, without their rewards being diminished in any respect. And he
who called (people) to error, he shall have to carry (the burden) of its sin, like those who
committed it, without their sins being diminished in any respect.
(Sahih Muslim, Book 034, Number 6470)
Want more???
Now come the second part....
"and i am sure...celebrating Melaad is not a good biddha as you ppl have appointed
a special day for it"
Aayyee.... simple sa sawal hai koi jawab kyu nahi deta! Phir poochta hon (bold kar ke)
What is wrong according to shariah in appointing a day for anything?
Phhllleaassee! Answer the query.
Let me elaborate this issue as you said you're here for learning (though its a lie, one who
wants to learn ask queries. A learner dont accuse.)
Appointing as in we do for celebrating Milad or other congregations are not what you or
most of najdis thinks.
People appoints time/day for everything in general (your parents probably got married on
an appointed day! Do you think its a impermissible?)
We appointed 12th Rabi-ul-Awwal as for the grand Milad congregation. Its not like that
we believe that Milad must be and can only be celebrated only on 12th Rabi-ul-Awwal if
one fails to do so he wont get the reward!
And again, if there is anything in shariah which prohibits it, I humbly request you to let
us know.

Just got another hadiths that might help getting the thing here.
Mishqat, Bab`ul`Adabu`Ta`aam, says;
"Permitted is that which Allah has made permissible in his book, and prohibited is that
which Allah has prohibited in his book and that about which nothing has been mentioned
is pardoned."
It is upon you who is saying that Milad is impermissible to show us which ayat or hadiths
has prohibited Milad and to bring us the evidence which support your views.
I am at work, so... will get you laters.... till then... bubye to you and Allah Hafiz to my
muslim brethren!
"On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of
Allah say :
"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the
two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who
avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he
who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd
who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a
sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is
a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be
diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart.""
I exactly know how frustrated you are. Now let all the other know about it.
You earned a crown for lame copy+pasting! The hadith you quoted mostly been quoted
by scholars regarding the Shariah ruling of "HALAL & HARAM FOOD!" Google it and
you'll find all your high esteemed "sulfis" quoting the same hadiths for "uncertainty"
about "Halal or Haram Food" not for practices.
Furthermore, there is nothing like uncertainty about Milad issue among the most
authentic scholars of Islam as we can a found a lot of sayings from them which proves it
permissible.
Mulla Ali Qari (the most authentic commentator of Bukhari among the whole sunni
world!) says;
The people of Madina Munawwarah, on the occasion of Mawlid Shareef used to arrange
and attend mawlid gatherings with enthusiasm and sincerity.
(Mawridar Riwa Fee Mawlidin Nabawi, pg. 29

Ahaa! Bukhari's most famous and authentic commentator had no doubts regarding Milad!
Who cares if some najdi baboon does?
Ibne Jauzi says;
"People of Haramain Shareefain (Makkah and Madinah) and Egypt and Yemen and Syria
and of the eastern and western cities of Arabia hold functions in celebration of the birth
of the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam), rejoice at the sighting of the Rabi-ulAwwal moon, bathe and put on their best dresses adorn themselves in various ways, put
on scent, and give alms with great joy, and exert themselves in listening to the Meelaad
of the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam). By doing so, they themselves attain to
success, as it has been proved that by celebrating the Meelaad of the Prophet (Sallal
Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam) much good accrues the whole year round: security and comfort,
greater means of livelihood, increase in children and in wealth, peace in cities and
contentment and peace in homes"
(Tafseer Ruhul Bayan by Shiekh Ismael Haqqi, Vol 9, Page 56
Miladul Uroos Urdu Bayan-e-Miladun Nabi, Page 34-35, Published in Lahore.
Addurrul Munazzam, page. 100, 101
Al-Miladun Nabawi, Page 58)
Ibne Jauzi has devoted a whole book to Meelaad, which is called "Maulad-ul-Uroos".
Allamah Ibne Jauzi says:
"Waja'ala Liman Fariha Bi maulidihi Hijaabam Minan Naari Wasitra, Waman Anfaaqa
Fi Maulidihi Dirhaman Kaanal Mustafa Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallama Laahu
Shaafi'an Wa-Mustafa"
"And whosoever rejoices at the birth of our beloved Mustafa (Sallal Laahu 'Alaihi Wa
Sallam), this rejoicing by him will turn the Fire away, and whosoever spends even a
dirham on the occasion of the Meelaad of the Prophet of ALLAH (Sallal Laahu 'Alaihi
Wa Sallam) he (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam) will intercede on his behalf and his
intercession will be accepted".
(Maulad-ul-Uroos, pg. 9)
Oops! Another great scholar had no doubts about it!
And, Ibne Jauzi has also written:
Ya Maulidal Mukhtaari kam Laka Min Sana.
Wa Madaa'ihin Ta'lu Wa Zikrin Yuhmadu.
Ya Laita Toolad Dahri Indi Zikruhu.
Ya Laita Toolad Dahri Indi Mauladu.
"O Meelaad of the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam)! You are mightily praised,
and the praise is such that it is the loftiest and the remembrance is such that it is the most
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excellent; how I wish the remembrance of the holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa
Sallam) shall be with me for a long time! How I wish his (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam)
Meelaad shall be with me for a long time!
(Maulad-ul-Uroos, Page 28)
Due to the rejoicing Abu Lahab made by setting free her kaneez named Thuwaiba at the
birth of the holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam), Imaam Qastalaani says:
"How would anyone of the Ummah the holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam)
fare, who is a Muslim and is steadfast in his belief in the unity of Allah and rejoices at his
(Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam) birth and who spends whatever he can afford for the love
of him (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam)? I swear by my life, that Allah, out of His Grace,
will not reward such a person but by entering him into the Gardens of Bliss.
(Mawaahib-dunniyah, Vol. 1, pg. 27, Published in Egypt)
Imaam Qastalaani further says;
"May ALLAH bless a person who celebrates Eid on the nights of the blessed month of
the holy birth of the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi wa Sallam), so that it hurts them the
most who have a serious disease in their hearts and who suffer from an incurable ailment
on account of the blessed birth".
(Mawaahib-dunniyah by Imam Qastalani, Vol1, Page 27, Published in Egypt)
Imam Shams ul-Din bin Naseer Al-Dimashqi, said in his book: "The Spring for the
Thirsty One on the Birth of the Rightly Guided" about the story of Abu Lahab that he
will receive a light punishment every Monday for expressing joy at the birth of the Noble
Prophet (Allah's Grace & Peace be upon him) on that day. The Imam said the following
verse of poetry, the translation is:
"If such Kafir was denounced in the (Qur'an) and perished are his hands, and in the
Flames is his eternal abode It is narrated that every Monday his torment is made easy for
his Joy at the Birth of Ahmad What is the expectation then of a servant who spent all his
life Happy with the Arrival of Ahmad (Allah's Grace & Peace be upon Him) and died on
the Oneness of Allah."
Imam Abu-Bakr Abdullah Al-Dimashqi compiled a number of books on the subject. Just
read the tiltes!
Collection of Traditions on the Birth of the Chosen Prophet
The Pure Expression on the Birthday of the Best of Creations
The Spring for the Thirsty One on the Birth of the Rightly Guided
Imam Mulla Ali Qari wrote a book and called it "The Quenching Spring on the
Birthday of the Prophet"
Imam Al-Hafiz Al-Iraqi wrote a book and called it "The Pure Spring on the Sublime
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Birth".
Imam Shams Ul-Din Ibn aL-Jazri, the Imam of reciters, wrote a book and named it "The
Scent of Notification on the Blessed Birthday".
There are hundreds and hundreds of book written by most authentic scholars of Islam!
Let me just name a few.....
Allamah Imaam Jalaal-ud-deen Suyooti;
1. Husnul Maqsad Fi Amalel Maulad
Imaam Haafiz Abul Khair Shamsudud-deen Al Jazri;
1. At Ta'reef Bil Mauladish Shareef
Imaam Mulla Ali Qaari Hanafi;
1. Al-Muredur Rawi Fi Maulidin Nabawi
Allamah Shahaab-ud-deen Khifaa ji;
1. Risaalah Amalal Maulad
Allamah Haafiz Shamsuddeen Ibne Naasir-UD-deen Damishqi;
1. Jaami'ul Aasaar Fi Maulidin Nabiyil Mukhtaar
2. Mauredus Saavi Fi Maulidil Haadi
Even Ibn Tay'miah (the najdi daddy of Salafis) said;
"As far as what people do during the Milad, either as a rival celebration to that which the
Christian do during the time of Christ's birthday or as an expression of their love and
admiration and a sign of praise for the Noble Prophet (Allah's Grace & Peace be upon
Him), Allah Almighty will surely reward them for such Ijtihad".
He then said:
"Although Milad was not practiced by (Salaf), they should have done so since there was
no objection against it from the Shari'ah point of view".
(Necessity of the Right Path, pg. 266, 5th line from the bottom of that page,
published by Dar Al-Hadith)
WohhaaA! Did you read "Allah will SURELY reward"! I think its more than enough to
clear the "doubts"!
well we cant rely on ulamas...but...have to check it!
Lol!!! You know what! You just reminded the old sayin.... geedar ki mout aati hai to woh
jungle ko bhagta hai!! haha... Anyways....why we cant rely on scholars bachay? Not just
scholars but the most authentic ones to the whole Sunni world! Cant rely just because
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they dont support the najdi views? Come on man... you can do better than this!
I havnt even quoted the whole namelist! They're just a few...
Though I still cant understand why you made such a contradicting statement. You're
saying we cant rely on scholars and yet you're the one who were supporting his views by
quoting scholarly interpretation of Quran.
All the ayah's translation you quoted are by scholars... arent they? All the major Tafasir
are by scholars!
All the ahadiths you quoted from Bukhari or any other books are by scholars! Imam
Bukhari wasnt a prophet but a muhaddiths, a scholar!
It seems like soon you'll start babbling that "We cant rely on hadith as they are
transmitted to us through scholars!"
And about (10:58), where you tried your level best to prove that it was about Quran only;
Imam Alusi in "Ruhul Ma' ani", (vol. 2, pg. 141) interprets Surah Yunus, (10:58) by
quoting a statement of Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Abass (Radi Allhu Anhu) an expert on
tafsir. He states that the word fadl in Surah Yunus means ilm, knowledge, and is a
reference to the Holy Qur'an. Since this ilm came about as a result of the means of the
Holy Prophet (Sallallahu Allahu Wasallam) who received this Divine revelation, Hadhrat
Ibn Abass (Radi Allhu Anhu) states that the rahma Allah Almighty refers to in the ayah
is the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu Allahu Wasallam) himself. In conclusion he says the
coming and rising of this rahma in the form of the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu Allahu
Wasallam) is an occasion to be celebrated.
Imam Jalaludin Suyuti in "Adurul Mansur fil Tafseer" (vol. 4, pg. 330) also quotes
Hadhrat ibn Abass and says fadl is ilm, referring to the Holy Qur'an and rahma is the
Holy Prophet (Sallallahu Allahu Wasallam).
Imam Tabrasi, a great Imam of tafseer from the 6th Century in "Majamual Bayan" (vol.
5, pg. 177-178) gives an explanation of this ayah. He comments that in reality Allah is
stating to His Prophet (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) that tell those who rejoice of things
of the dunya, if they want to rejoice something then they should rejoice in Allah's fadl
and rahma, that has been bestowed and sent upon them. He says there are two things to
be celebrated, the revelation of the Holy Qur'an which is Allah's fadl and the raising of
the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu Allaihe Wasallam) who is the rahma.
But I know it wont satisfy you as you cant rely on scholars, but on najdis! Even though I
quoted the most famous najdi of all times, Ibn Tay'miah. And now read what his pupil
Ibn al-Qayyim (another famous Imam of Salafis) says;

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"Listening to a beautiful voice celebrating the birthday of the Prophet, or celebrating any
of the holy days of our history, gives peace to the heart, and bestows upon the listener a
light from the Prophet himself."
(Madarij al-Salikin, pg. 498)
Now you should ask your beloved salafis about these writings first then come to us, as
you said;
"tamam tar ikhtalafat kay bawajood main yehi kahon ga kay salafi firqa
BRELWIYYAT say hazar guna behtar hain"
To bachay pehlay iss hazaaaaar guna behtar naam`nihaad salafiyoo se too poocha ke unn
ke Imamo nay ye sab kuch kyu likha hai....

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