Name: Tan Sri Mohd Ali Hashim

Job Position: President of the Malaysian Islamic Chamber of Commerce &Former CEO of Johor
Corporation
Place of Interview: Length of Interview time: 1 hour 9 minutes and 9 seconds.
Persons

Tan Sri

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Details
(Clicking sound)You from same faculty dengan ni Dr.Normah ni apa
semua ni tadi {Interviewer interrupted: Same, ya same} eh same ini
{Interviewer interrupted: Faculty of Accountancy}
Facult of Accountancy {Interviewer: But it just that I didnt join ARI, Im
parked at the faculty, {at the faculty ya, you are not with ARI, but you are
.to participate aa}
Aa..so, I just being brought in by Dr.Faizah to be involved in, previously I CSR
but now corporate.aa..on waqaf and I come in with respect to the qualitative part
the{Interviewee interrupted: Ah, CSR is till on?}
We we have actually completed the data collection so now its actually come of
the data {Interviewee interrupted: But as a activity..as it is..so waqf ni..part of
CSR no,} Ah, CSR basically we have completed {Interviewee interrupted:
Oooh..I see, now you are focus in on waqf?}
So, this is the new, the new..aa..research project. {Interviewee interrupted: I
think this is too more bigger and much more challenging than a CSR}
Ah, Yes
{Interviewee interrupted:..macam tu dah ada banyak literature, ye}
Ah Right.
{Interviewee interrupted: tapi hat ni}
Okay,{Interviewer interrupted: Okay} shoot
So, aa.your explanation.{Interviewee interrupted: Yup}yesterday was gave us a
better understanding especially on my part {Interviewee interrupted: mmhhmm}
This is new to me, so it give us including me a better understanding of what
corporate waqf {interviewee interrupted: Mhhmm} is all about aa..but still on
our part, we need to read more on aa.. the paper and also aa..Tan Sri aa.
{Interviewee interrupted: Yup} aa..{Interviewee interrupted: Have you come
across my book tak? Hari tu saya ada publish}
You mentioned yesterday, {Interviewee interrupted: Yes.., you can read it, I have
a copy..}
Is it available in the book store?
It is published by Utusan Publications and emm..and..a it could be Utusan, it is

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available if you want..

In MPH? is it available at MPH?
It used to be, but it was a..in the..a..but, itu hari saya pergi MPH tak jumpe, nak
buy..so..but if you need a copies, you let me know, because I also can have
access to, I mean in case you need more than..one la katakan ye, untuk library ke
ape semua ye, {Interviewer interrupted: Aa..} kalau nak itu, let me know..ye, but
I will try to find..they will have one upstairs ada copy {Interviewer interrupted:
Yang Dr.Faizah have that already or..are we }
I dont know, kalau dia takde then I will give it to her and then you can share
{Interviewer interrupted: Ah..Yes}
Other, i..i just nothing have but one or two copies, except for they have it here,
because I have.., I thought I have it there or I have it here.(clicking sound)
because dalam ni ada metioned eit.it.. dia ada banyak jugak background on the
older Johor Corporation {Interviewer interrupted: Mhmm}
It.. also one or two chapters, macam Ustaz Ismail yang kapal tu semalam kan
{Interviewer interrupte: A..ha..}
One he talked about head some other businesses yang its born of ye..thats
born{Interviewer interrupted: Okay}
. inside ape tu{Interviewer interrupted: Okay}
..mother corporation concept tu kan {interviewer interrupted: Okay}
..the entrepreneurial concept. Datin Paduka Siti Saadiah punya experience
ye..a..its not hundred percent comprehensive , this is based on the article I wrote
in the newspaper{Interviewer interrupted: Okay}
So, they are short, very short ye..but some..some of them contains facts that are
relevant for..for ini..so..{Interviewer interrupted: That will be great for us}
Em, aah..boleh saya bagi atas nama..siapa? Dr.Faizah atau siapa? Atau to the
centre atau to..faculty?
Em,aa to the centre, Accounting Research Institute, {Interviewee interrupted:
Ha?} ..to Prof. Normah or..
{interviewee interrupted: to Prof. Normah ye, but then might not all of you get
access to it? Or..or later on, kalau you nak beli, }
Aahh..
Interviewee interrupted:..you let me know, if you need ten copies ke berapa ke
ye..}
..aahh..okay..
{Interviewee interrupted: because..because I can have access it as a writer.}
That would be great so if we..
{Interviewee interrupted: tapi itu later la ye}
Prof.Normah, does she has it already?
{Interviewee interrupted: I dont think so, I cant remember whether when I went
to turkey I passed it to her, I have a feeling I have, I would feel I have}

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Dr.Faizah would be, {interviewee interrupted: Dr.Faizah} she is.. {Interviewee

interrupted: she is a coordinator ye,}
She is the leader of project then..then we can all share..(silent for 3 second)
Oh,..this is in Bahasa ye?
(chuckling) Yes, I deliberately wrote in Malay because its changing the Malay
mind set
Ahmm
Im starting to write my first book, all my four books..another one is
coming..aa..based on the article saya wrote..this one based on the article I wrote
in Harian Metro in 20..10 {interviewer interrupted: Okay}
The..the..and the..Last year, over the whole of last year I really written about
ini..I..I became a columnist at Sinar Harian
{Interviewer interrupted: Oh ya?}
Aa, {interviewer interrupted: Okay}.. so I still continue to talk about corporate
waqf including elements like zuhud, how to..the interpretation of zuhud into
business, zuhud means selflessness and so on tu semua kan, but it very important
component {Interviewer interrupted: Okay}
..and that InsyaAllah Im trying to get publish this year
So, it is a compilation of..{interviewee interrupted: of my article, series article}
of your articles
I restructure the article into.. apa nama..chapter, so that it is restructured and it is
not just random and so on, what you write is random kan?
Ya..
So, ada chapter dia apa semua..ade apa semua..ada rasionalnya..and at each
chapter I summarize dalam box tu, aa..the..the most important..what Ive you as
most important..message aa.. {interviewer interrupted: elements} ye elements,
jadi kalau orang yang malas nak baca, kata orang Melayu malas kan, nak baca
ni, mudah-mudahan dia dapat sedikit ye, so it just like that la, so Dr.Faizah
Darus ye?
Ya, Dr.Faizah Darus..
Eammmtoday
berapa..1
{Interviewer
interrupted:
Its
already
March}..yes..because semalam dah..
How time flies..
Ha..ya..that..you can use this as reference..but in case you need it, katakan lagi
extra, five copies ke whatever ke, let me know, you can buy, in the market it
cost, it have, Im telling sorry (hehe), market listing price is 46 ringgit ye, kalau
you want to buy more, you let me know aa..i can work out a price la..
But it is available in the market then.. {Interviewee interrupted: It may, but itu
hari saya pergi dia takde} takde
Takde, sebab Utusan ni is not aggressive in marketing, very you..you..maybe you
havent even heard something like this
Yes

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See, {Interviewer interrupted: Thats not good}.. thats how bad Malay
enterprises are..Utusan is..they are lacking there..
I would like to buy one then..
Ya, you let me know, ape..cuba you tanya nanti apa semua..kalu ada..maybe a
group, would like tu, a member ke tapi it is in Malay ye..
Dalam
Ada two three chapters specifically on corporate waqf, and ada chapters relavnt
to.. its all abour JCorp..and ye.. and..emphasis is the why we do it differently,
values and its rational, the reason for doing it..not just for the sake of being
different..
And this totally will be our main reference, one of our main reference..
{Interviewee interrupted: Ah..}okay..
because they have statistics inside it, which you can could..aa..aa..this
particular one I wrote when I was still CEO, so I had access to some number and
since on kan..so I had a support of JCorp punya ini..the next book, I don;t have
the support of the tools
This is 2011?
Dah printed 3 kali dah tu, eh ni berapa? Takde..belum..tu 11..oooh..this one is
original..they already have another revised {Interviewer interrupted: Reviused..}
printing apa semua..tapi takde re..{Interviewer interrupted: changes?} Im saying
re..re print cantik, they didnt do any changes..
So, the re print is 2014?
Yes..dua kali..so dah ada tiga and it one the..the..{Interviewer interrupted: Ah ya,
I did heard that} Book of the Year by the Persatuan..ape nama dia..ada dia punya
itu persatuan
So, it is sell out ye Tan Sri, because we cant get it at the..at the store
Ya..but..to me..it is the stupidity of the(haha) ..i mean of the marketing punya
lacking..{Interviewer interrupted: those are lacking}..but what happen is, I
always go on the lectures and so on ni kan..and for example this year..I know
these two organisation, one bought 350 and last week aa..LPPwanted me to
give a talk, I dont charge them anything if they buy more than 200, so they
bought 500, dia nak distribute through out their..because they use it to as a
motivational ini..for entrepreneur, entrepreneurship..entrepreneur, you could do
it..adjust for yourself, if you will and you do, you let me know, it could be
reference for even students ke ape semua.. {Interviewer interrupted: Ah..
Yes}..particularly business student yang nak kan.. {Interviewer interrupted:
Yes}but the focus is mind set change of Malays..a Malays mindset change..
Ah, mind set
Why they should go to business, why business is important, how to do it in
Islamic way..ye..it is not 100% ini la..its not in academic ye..it is from
practitioners view point..mungkin tu la sharing over experience
Ah, ya..it..it will definitely be

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But you have to read it first, buatnya you tak faham, I mean {Interviewer
interrupted: Yes, of course, I would like to read ithe he}..this
writer..penulisan..Im not a..you know..aa..
This all come from your real experience..
Ah..ya..of course. So , back to the issue sekarang..
Okay, so yesterday Tan Sri has elaborated on the path, which basically
refer..reflecting on JCorp as a corporate..what we called..corporate mother
Yes, mother corporation.
Mother corporation and so the present what we doing now on corporate..
The reason of why the concept of mother corporation is important is because
now eh..when you dont have a structured approach Malays and Muslims
businesses ni, individualistic..uncoordinated..you missed out.. because today,
name of the game, you want to win, you must have critical mass.so you must
build corpora..te capacity..ye..most of business ni, even they have family based,
they cannot become mother corporation, becauseaccording to the Muslims
punya way pulak..the Chinese tak..dia pass based on principally to them, first
son, show the family wealth,..show those intact..they have those for the mother
concept well.. {Interviewer interrupted: Okay}..but the structure that will..
Among Muslim, faraid boleh kasi tak? Im not against faraid lah kan, ye...
{Interviewer interrupted: Ah, Ya..}the..aa..bila faraid come scene..aa.itu yang
until today, the Arabs, eventhough they went business early, kita takde cyclical
there is no critical mass..today, if you dont have critical mass, you cannot
compete..then you, next generation start over again..over again..anak sepuluh
dah pecah sepuluh, then you have to rebuild again, rebuild..so, well never be
able to wait..so, we need to have a concept of a mother corporation..the best is
waqf because waqf ni you dont.. {Interviewer interrupted: cut to..}..you dont
distribute it to your children kan..ha..you want to give your children bahagian
lain..yang you waqf..will continue and find the best talent, put them in, but..it is
not for his own sake, that is why mother corporation concept is important..ye..it
is for the sake of fundamentally creating entrepreneur opportunities for young
Muslim in the future..yang ade access to money tapi ada talent kan.ha..
{Interviewer interrupted: Ya..}.. macam mana nak screen or profile them kan..so
that.. (Tan Sri giggling)..thats why yesterday we were discussing kan..
{Interviewer interrupted: Ya,right..}..but the concept the mother fashion
corporation is important because if we dont wait, it will not last, perpetuity is
not last, greatest attraction kan..it is also perpetuate, because what we need is
perpetuity lah..because you know..aa..you dont need to compete for the long
term,
sorry
a..{Interviewer
interrupted:
Okay}..I
tend
to..hahaha..corporation..haha..ya..{Interviewer interrupted: No, its okay, its
okay Tan Sri..}
Now, today, we have seen the success of An-Nur{Interviewee interrupted: Yes,

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Alhamdulillah}, the one Johor corporation involved into, one of the top
companys under you..and..and the An Nur corporation and now community
driven waqf that you are trying to..aa..de..develop..so, thats mean people have
seen and this through..your book, newspaper articles, they have seen, they have
read and they have heard from you the success stories, but why it is still difficult
for them to accept this corporate waqf?
This is actually..ahmm..on..there are many businesses that prove.. thats
why..aa..preparedness among the public to accept it..why?I have
attended..participated in these two international congressess, one is
ehmm..Putrawan and one is specifically organised by..ahm....by..Majlis Agama
Islam together. In both congresses, the first one also organised by MAPIM ye, I
dont know ya..ehm..emm..apa nama.. bukan MAPIM..ahmm..there is a body
yang..eh..apa nama..economic Islam Malaysia..what..yayasan..YAPEIM,
YAPEIM..by YAPEIM ya, the next one, national level {Interviewer interrupted:
Okay}..was involved everybody including politician. Second one, even involved
raja-raja, Raja-Raja was there, Raja Muda Perlis was there, ada daripada paper
and it involves semua Majlis Agama-Agama Islam..because, when you want to
do waqf coporate, you must get Majlis Agama Islam to change..{Interviewer
interrupted: It is at level state?}..national level..{Interviewer interrupted:
National level.}..both are national level..yang state tu lain..smaller, yang itu
banyak saya pergi and..both congresses national level, dia ada dia punya
publication..you can access to them..dalam tu clearly resolve to accept and it..
the second is particular resolve to..the..for the establishment of one..at least one
national waqf corporation and each one at state level. So, cantik dah tu, during
the congress apa semua, the solution. But when it comes..it comes to carrying it
out{Interviewer interrupted: the regulation}than that it is when will discuss
about it, okay. My assessment is because of the apa..apa nama..its from their
perspective it is requires legislative change..and change is something..nobody
likes..not..particularly nobodies so we are act more conservative. Many of them,
because they feel like change it, change means is to gamble with something is
unknown kan..ha..so..ya..many of them..satu. Yang kedua, its threaten their
current position, so tak boleh. Yang ketiga, because..precisely because it is
Islamic la. Under our constitution, means it becomes under raja-raja. When it
comes to the consent of raja-raja, I have work in Johor, indirectly juga I have
work under the Sultan. I wouldnt be able to establish waqf corporate if I dont
have a special relationship with Sultan of Johor. You can read inside the reason
why. I became closed, because let me tell you this is the background. When I
first became the CEO at the age of 35, tiga kali saya di titah menghadap Sultan
Iskandar, and that was before the constitutional amendment by Mahathir.
Mahathir baru jadi Prime Minister when I became CEO, Sultan Iskandar baru
jadi raja when I became CEO. At that time, kedudukan raja-raja dengan Sultan

Iskandar. Dia pakai uniform la, hes known for his slap to shut
people{Interviewer interrupted: Yes}..so you know that background ye..so his
first titah when he became among the major one, when he became Sultan was to
closed our hospital, hospital yang Siti Saadiah buat tu {Interviewer interrupted:
Ah}baru start kat jalan besar..just has six doctors, baru recruit them, hospital dah
built.. nak operate, dia titah suruh tutup. Bila dia titah suruh tutup {Interviewer
interrupted: Sebab apa ya Tan Sri?}..simple..dia..he was missing from. Raja-raja
ni biasa gitu..he was missing from..he was..or deliberately missing from by
saying that there is corruption and this is not good for Johor because it was to
take away..Sultan ni kalau dia sakit, dia nak the best doctors, so the message that
to their self people is they are going to take away you doctors, the good doctors,
they are going to go away from government service because this is attractive.
Memang betul, at that time, six doctors were already left government service to
join them. Where else you can get doctors than from government service so there
that they want to build. But one thing great about his..i mean his.even..gelagat
dia macam gila-gila ye {Interviewer interrupted: Hmm} bukan gila..dia gila-gila
ya..but, one thing that is great from him from my view point is..he is the type
who likes to satisfy himself, he just analyst, doesnt want to listen so, in the first
instance, I just told him that, he still recalled..but that time I wasnt even a CEO
masa tu, Tan Sri Bashir was, but Tan Sri Bashir has been removed because it,
bila political changes ni, he was more in government..moved dah..pergi balik ke
Kuala Lumpur, saya was the active ni apa nama..so he called me three times,
every time, I told my wife, be prepared 24 hours, we may have to leave. So,
but..every..three times I stood up..aa..this is advantage I also having of a..I have a
very..ah..my father was inspector police, very strict, very upright, very solid,
ya..and I got a lot of discipline from him, and no nonsense..kalau dia nak
melawat sekolah, guru-guru, guru besar ni kadang-kadang terkencing ye, dia
punya takut dekat dia, what Im going to say that Sultan ni memang orang takut,
garang {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}, but to me because saya grew up dengan
environment where my father ye, bila you anak, kita nak enjoy life, kadangkadang nak main dengan kawan-kawan tak pakai baju, my father tak bagi but if
you tak pakai, you pakai baju, kawan you tak pakai baju, you are not the
member..aa..the member of the kampung pulak..kan..so, kadang-kadang kena la
belasah bila balik, nak..so..I mean..the link is..bila dia begitu garang, my father,
saya sifatkan dia orang..emm..Sultan ni macam when I was like grew up,
{Interviewer interrupted: you have been trained}..dan saya tak takut, orang lain
takut. I dont have that fear and I was able to articulate the reason now, and
he..he is, that was Sultan will bring in audit, kalau Inggeris, audit department
guna that period Johor, they check currently about the hanky panky things and so
on, he brought in the police, the anti corruption agency, he brought in, because

he is a access, dia titah je but the great thing about him is, he deals directly,
satisfied himself, bila dia tak ada proof, and I was able to convince him of this
viability and after that suddenly when we succeed ni..finally..Sultan tak minta
maaf kat kita..dia buat salah pun..ni..ni bukan salah dia, dia salah informed. Satu
hari tu dia datang, dia cakap kat saya , dia tanya saya, why dont you, kita dah
ada hospital dekat Kuala Lumpur, kat Perak ke apa, why dont you pasang
bendera Johor kat hospital-hospital tu. That to me, he didnt say that you know,
thats to me, he is saying that, Look..ha.., you are in the right track, I support
you. {Interviewer interrupted: the recognition}..recognition ye..aa..he became
proud with it and he quickly, in fact, bila dia sakit, dia tak pernah pergi kat
hospital kerajaan, right from the one lepas tu, he always go our.. one of our
hospital. So, thats one is by the way of Sultan ye, says it..this is..this is the
important background of how we were able to do the waqf and that..Im sorry
kalau distract you punya pihak
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No, its okay, because..because you are sharing the..the process..

Ya, and the reality of it and this something that you need to overcome ya..In
other state, after I retired, after I resigned, I was persuade this idea waqf to the
Sultan, and I told you, I went to many state. Some together with Datuk Seri Idris
Jusoh when he wanted to established his Iqra ye, I went to every ahead with it,
to Perak, to Selangor but Terengganu, he couldnt get access the autorithy from
Terengganu because dia punya relationship dengan Sultan tak kena. This is again
the issue the establish waqf..in this case it is not the Sultan, we dont. we met
only one or two Sultan, like a Sultan of Perak, Azlan, sekarang, masa tu dia raja
muda, dia chairman, tapi he still didnt give. Finally, I came to the conclusion ya,
I mentioned yesterday, its perhaps that Iqra initiative by Datuk Seri Idris Jusoh
is a political initiative by somebody from the bigger department and I
understand, from my proper discussion with Istana people, I tend to get to know
themselves ea..the Raja Muda of Perak at that time, the chairman of..apa
nama..emm..Majlis Agama Islam Perak has to give mutawwali status to a
politically driven entity because..his argument is logical, rational..because he
doesnt want, if you established waqf corporate, corporation ke, its the same in
Perak, established by UMNO and besok PAS nak establish lagi, and then they
start to quarrel lagi, and they want to take Islamic issue ni, which is right apart
the politics. So, this time around, when I wanted to establish Awqaf Holding
Berhad, I detached myself from any political link, so you became a professional
name by the chamber, in political, in my chamber Im a passed member, I
couldnt care less about their political .and we dont let..allow them to bring it
in our discussion..no politic.Alhamdulillah, we will be able to convince Negeri
Sembilan. Allah punya kuasa lagi pun, and Negeri Sembilan lebih mudah as I
said, because the ambitious chairman. So, meaning a lot of water has go, we had

to do a lot of work consistenly against all odds, youll be surprised, over for five
years, my colleague, you can interview kalau you tak kisah. He came along with
me and ralise how tought it is. Semua, bila sebut pasal waqf, non Muslim,
especially not orang majlis ke, mufti-mufti kan, will say that waqf is not good.
But when it come to carry it out because it entails..legislative change, changing
laws, politician has to involved, raja went to involve, administrators is jealous of
their position of term and so on, you know administrators at government servant,
they want to..their..their look after their territory, they defend their term,
jealousy. I think thats it the reason why they got..but..in spite of those..of those
constraints..aa..my colleague and I, our mission is to try to..to like in Johor, to do
it, within the framework of the existing legislation. Nak tunggu amendment,
sepuluh tahun lagi, I can assure that we might not be able to get it. Twenty years
also, the rate, our politician behaviour, they are not about to change it up..they
are not about to change anything and their agenda is not change, I think. They
talk about transformation and the things, and thats a good, so how to carried out,
make it possible even with the context of current constraint. Alhamdulillah, we
able to build Awqaf Corporation, and..Dr.Aliza, if you see of waqf as I
mentioned yesterday, all you need is one or two like this becauseit is a corporate
waqf precisely, we can go anywhere, we can even go global based on mutawwali
status even given by Negeri Sembilan. People will ask why Negeri Sembilan
give you and then you will go all over, I came point to Waqf An-Nur, Johor with
us. KPJ kita dah wakafkan, KPJ has got businesses through out the country it is,
the same. And the Kulim, satu lagi company yang kita dah..kita dah wakafkan
share, Kulim, they have even businesses company at that one of time even listed
in London. So, which mean, this is the power of corporate waqf. You can cross
the boundaries, is global. Waqf after all, is more than global, universal. Tuhan
jadikan ye, memang..
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Now, and hereafter..

Yes, Exactly,so,it is totally borderless in the true sentence..the words here and
hereafter..
But still, is very challenging is it for you?
It is, but that is entrepreneurship. Parts of entrepreneurship..if you look
entrepreneurship
purely
as
a
business
aa..
term..terminology as an economic terminology..its related only to wealth
creation. So, in Muslim countries,it is not enough to just to devote your focus on
wealth creation, how to back your structure of a company, how to compete, how
to market, how to produce a product most efficiently done..ya..
In the Muslims context, you must go beyond all that. Because first of all, you
want to change mind set. You have to correct any contradiction between current
corporate structures and..and practices as globally known compared with

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aspiration,and.. fundamental aspiration of a Muslim. There are tradition.

So, how do you cope about that changing of mindset of this world?
This is why a lot of of global also is..but use this islamic way. First of all, re
define everything, scan everything in the context of Islamic principles, Islamic
values, Islamic, the Shariah, so what are the fundamental..there are few
fundamentals among them, first of all, the halal haram aa..then the effect is
easier to tackle ha..but the mindset issue, the motivational issue, for example the
motivational side, thats why we used jihad. Once you used jihad, all the
principals related to jihad, bagi you, you use it, you have to define, then you
have make sure that it is all in line, other way it is not jihad, its jahat..ha..so, the
challenges is right on, we used word like jihad deliberately, so that is no
nonsense, no waste, no had..no compromising..when you see jihad means, so
you need to define. So, no more corporate enterprise called their mission as
jihadi mission, if they dont today, macam recently, kerajaan pun, you might
happen, a minister launching jihad, sebagai orang tengah {Interviewer
interrupted: Jihadi?} orang tengah..Minister of Agro business..which to me, is
nonsense. Every businessman is an orang tengah asalnya, you are kan..every
single business, niat dia tu, dia marahkan cina sebagai orang tengah..apa semua
sebagai orang tengah tapi dekat Malaysia dia tak pakai orang tengah, he use the
term jihad. Jihad is a people, you cannot use jihad sebagai orang tengah.
Rasulullah dulu pernah jadi.. usaha businessman..at one of a time, dia pun orang
tengah because you beli something and then you trade something kan, you buy
from
somewhere,
orang
lain
produce,
you
get
supply
to
customer..consumer..they all orang tengah, bankers orang tengah semua
(laughing), so, thats why our problems is because, many of us, we do not
clearly define things correctly. When you start with not defining the things
correctly, you tend to..go..to make tu..a lot of fundamental mistakes at is and nak
correct them, you see, our dilemma Muslims. Many of the problem we face
today is because of unthinkingly doing thing and then we spent more energy and
time and resources to correct the mistakes that we made in the past. Thats why
we are not creating anything new and doing this generate more hint than energy,
bila bergaduh apa semua, we are adopt the corporate system, business system
from the west, we are admitting contradiction. You cant blame the west. They
created it, started it in the environment where Islamic values is not relevant to
them kan? If we are unthinkingly adopt, then we have contradiction inside,
which already we have in Muslims countries, thats why forever Muslim will
never be able to..unless you redefine balik semula and today, among the
strongest, most dynamic components that influence civilization that effect most
of the business, if we talk about IT, about telefon, about apa semua, who made
them readily available to us? Efficiency of business, business organisation
named that Samsung, when they all the business corporation kan?..so, we want

to be like them, but we cannot be like them, they way they have done it, kita
kena restructure. They themselves had use the west, about the structure,
ownership, that is why I touch a bit ye..{Interviewer interrupted: Ya}..aa..thats
why we need to redefine them, we want the ownership to be combine with
entrepreneurship, that is their,aa..most dynamic..aa..concept about entrepreneur.
What we nak,combine it ownership, tapi kalau ownership you nak bagi to
individual, we will adapt the same way them, the rich, the richer 1% control the
rest of us, the rest of us, kalau tak poor pun, alienated marginialised, ye..ke
tepi..dia sesuai, because challenge to the muslims is to change all this, and thats
why the use term of jihad..because it defines..it not just..pandang deposit..like
IBF, Islamic Banking and Finance, we are doing the easy things to some of them,
that are many are accusing like simply off apa nama..pakaikan jubah kepada
bank-bank barat but a bank is still a bank. Bank is never created initially for
purposes of Muslim punya throughout the long history of Islam, the Turkey
sampai pon..bank ni dia still exist, the existence there. Waqf, why didnt waqf,
ehmm..apa nama..why wasnt Muslims able to project waqf, to become apa ni,
project institution, because we all blocking ourselves. Then,all to the bank punya
bank rate,today mula-mula orang melayu ni tak nak you, sebelum kita ada
Islamic banking, kita gunakan istilah..aa..faedah..bukan interest..padahal itu nak,
aa..supaya..kita ni sensitif pasal riba kan, kalau interest itu riba, faedah itu
sebenarnya riba juga, cuma it is in Malay term, not in Arabic term,Islamic
term..jadi..it sounds like..kemudian, tak pe la, ni sikit-sikit, thats good ustaz,
lepas tu Islamic Banking and Finance, and today we are, at the edge of apa ni,
they had done very well, but fundamentally is still bank fees, and bank as
creature as intermediary, it will not solve two particularly problems, never,
because it just intermediaries institutions. Important! But it will never be able to
solve two, one is poverty, mass poverty in social, second it will not have ya..a lot
of people will say that we will always been marginialised even under Yunus,
Dr.Yunus punya Grameen Bank ye, the system, because it still a bank, cuma he
just a..under his brilliant. Im saying that he is good ya, Im not trying to
undermine aa..you know, but we need it. It came in, it came in the right time, but
it cannot be a solution that resolved everything, because it is good to have
housewife to be able to come in, because under his way, he was able to reduce it
to 3% or something, but it still at interest rate cuma ye and you need an
intermediaries..and most people are still out of the look, so, tak pe, you still can
go ahead, but we need to search and look for other alternative institutions that
can do it, that can capital musyarakah, itu punya debt, waqf corporation,mother
corporation tu {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}..to me, we dont have a model now
but we just got to do it, in case perhaps, there is a solution. The job..aa..i mean,
we can appreciate that lah, so coming back to your question, meanings thats

they already acceptance. Through seminar, through conferences and its already
address in any, even it in same and in Islamic banking community but..one thing
Im against this Islamic banking community, is when they look at waqf, they
look at it ah..as a product, how to enhance Islamic banking and finance, Im not
looking at that, to me, that is not important if you regard waqf as a..banking
products, or been islamic banking, its still.. you are limiting it, narrow it. Im
talking about possibility of waqf corporation owning banks and then you have
the marginalised, list of franchise, unlimited majority and this is based on the
premium, having a stake, and to assure that you dont alienate or marginalised or
whatever. So, aa..therefore, this are the conceptual changes ape nama, the
fundamental, definition of jihad business, definition of the corporate waqf. Its
posit reason that I mentioned yesterday, I have registered, I wanted to pass it all
to Johor Corporation but they didnt want to buy it {Interviewer interrupted:
Okay}.. the copyright, the terminologies and what, because today I see even the
Malaysian government, the result of our..our work, Alhamdulillah. If you kaji
balik ye, the reason UMNO, annual general meeting, {Interviewer interrupted:
Ya}.. one of the economic, through economic resolution on waqf. Element
second number eight, number seven said, waqf government must aaapa
nama..look seriously into the development of waqf asset..yang manage by anak
under Majlis. Number eight is clearly stated that government must implement
corporate waqf. My fear is, the interpretation of corporate waqf, they narrow it
balik semula. Dia nak allow existing mechanism to ye, dia tak nak change,
aa..maknanya Majlis Agama Islam, so what happen is, Jabatan Waqf di Jabatan
Perdana Menteri has been allotted fifty million, fifty million ringgit this year, to
develop waqf. Good, tetapi to me , its totally inadequate. You are missing the
point, because what they are going to do is spend that all 50 million ringgit,
develop, bagi duit pada Majlis yang ada sekarang, its not transformation, its not
change what else. Waqf is much more bavel institution, a change make it..erra
change create it, it is initiative for total change reformation.
Interviewer
Interviewee

So, thats it their definition of corporate waqf..

The definition of corporate waqf, if anybody die even the..{Interviewer
interrupted: passing to the, what they do}..ya, for the moment of based what they
had announce ya. Hopefully, they will grab it to other thing and furthermore.
And some states has established waqf foundation. Selangor is one, if Im not
mistaken, Perak, Negeri Sembilan pun ada, Yayasan Waqf Negeri Sembilan,
Yayasan Waqf Selangor. The level of Yayasan Waqf ni, dia ..so you well, like
macam dulu, Johor Corporation, Johor State Economic Development
Corporation {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}..thats mean government kan. Waqf
shoudnt be government grant by definition, you can consult, Ustaz, ye..Shariah
punya principal. It contradicts Shariah principles, sesiapa mewakafkan harta dia,

Interviewer

Interviewee

Interviewer
Interviewee

ada hak menguruskan harta dia, dia nak namakan anak dia sebagai pengurus pun
boleh, tapi dia tak boleh missed out on that part yang charity..benefit masyarakat
tu apa semua ye, fisabilillah komponen mesti ada walaupun anak dia mengurus.
So, how do you tackle that part, the missed under qualifying of..
This is why ya, this is why I welcome an opportunity to have a round table
ya..meaning, because the main agenda as I said because, the politician goes
public unthinkingly or..looking its too simplistically. This is where we requires,
academic institution ya, like yours and so on, to come in {Interviewer
interrupted: the champion}..Ya..to clarify it for them, to define it for them. Im
not saying my definition is 100% correct, thats why we having a round table.
What, what..is your definition..
This is what Im saying about, corporate waqf must have two fundamentals
elements. You cannot do it without having waqf recognition by religious
authority. But number two, if you want to be corporate waqf, it must be based on
a company, operating in the market, competing freely just like another. Thats
mean you harness, yang I bagi tu kan, you baca, you harness the dynamics of the
corporate organisation. Why are the west able to now colonise us without
colonising, like before, how do they do it? Its true their multinational
corporation. {Interviewer interrupted: Yes}. If we want to win in this game, we
must have our multinational corporation but the, we adopt their multinational
corporation, we are no different from them. Today, the challenge to them is the
rich get richer, the rest look at squatted. We are unthinkingly jumping on that
same pattern today, this is why I believe, it is already starting. The defies,
distortion, debate in Muslim society. And I, my understanding of it is, my sense
of it is..when you have such a distortion, it is worse in Muslim societies context.
We will..err..we..will..will be torn apart. In the west, because its their creature,
the west is known for exploiting each other than help. Their whole mind set is
about exploiting others including exploiting the old people. When they launch
theirinto the Christian in the west, dia tak kira siapa even the Christian in the
East pun, the Greek Christianity..ah itu sebab..sampai ini hari Russian pun ni
what ye..so, it is meant to be adversarial ye, that is the word ye, its always
predatory, its always how to monopolise and the..the corporation is a product of,
end product of colonisation. The first few corporation that was successful, ye,
was created in 1600. The East Indian Company {Interviewer interrupted: Ah}.
The Dutch is their company, the English is their company, that was a model and
then they group. To this, were all instruments of colonisation. And today, when
political majority comes in, they have no choice but to be independent ya..they
have to re think about how to colonise without colonising. They use
multinational corporation, they use the corporation, the corporate entity and they
are so powerful. How do we encounter them? Jihad, business jihad is not about
blowing their companies, ya..using bomb ke perang ke, tidak. Therefore, you

need an institutional strategy, you want the, why they are successful? Because
they through their corporate approach, they able to a mass wealth, over hundred
of years, beyond the life of individuals and hence, this is so amazing, this is the
giant corporation. They are richer and bigger than government even in term of
asset, power, economic resources, the organisational ability. Petronas is bigger
than the Malaysian government {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}, they are giving,
imported million and its going to go bigger. How to make sure that Petronas
dont out grow and become a monster? Like the west and then they start to buy
political power, influenced ye, corruption and so on, all is this caused by and
most of them is a greed liven by individuals who are seeking individuals wealth.
How to counter that? You dont counter that by building Muslims alternatives,
macam Islamic banking dengan Finance, dia selimutkan dengan jubah ye,
multinational corporation ni, we have our own corporation kata kan, aa..there
you are, we have reach that ever,. Because as I said earlier, we are so much more
sensitive towards social injustice and fact is, because Islam is really about other,
fundamentally. So jihad business and so on, must, therefore corporate waqf, ye,
intergrate or this fundamental Islamic values aspirations, Maqasid Shariah apa
semua, masukkan semua. In..so, when we, I started and my colleague started to
think about doing this, it is massive exercise. And it cannot be done by ourselves
alone, but, we did, we did try our best at our level. Because nak tunggu benda tu,
we dont want to be paral..this phenomenal paralysis by analysis
ye.incrementally build it. As we go adjust, as we go adjust to build it. So, which
means, the only way for Muslim to come back to build a civilisation of course,
this fundamental, we are Khalifah {Interviewer interrupted: Hmm..}..di janjikan
dalam Al-Quran, umat Islam adalah umat yang terbaik, Khairu Ummah, di
janjikan, Surah An Nur, ayat 52 kalau tak silap saya, An-Nur, jelas sekali Allah
menjanjikan aa..apa nama, orang yang beriman, beramal salih, umat Islam, akan
menjadi seperti Khalifah zaman dahulu, menguasai, berkuasa di muka bumi. Di
masjid, tiga masjid saya bina, oleh Johor Corporation di Johor, atas konsep jihad
business,waqf corporate, dekat pintu nak masuk tu, saya tarukkan ayat ini, pintu
masuk selalu kan ada decoration {Interviewer interrupted: Hmm..}.. ayat ini,
surah An-Nur, mengingatkan orang, kita ni, tuhan janji nak jadikan umat
khalifah. Khalifah fundamentally is a..is..is a cultural value walaupun..the idea is
civilisation, civilasition means civilisation fundamentally definition is values.
What are the values that are fundamental to Islam, keadilan, prosperity, so
manusia di turunkan untuk prosper muka bumi, and Islam as ..... so, thats mean
you cannot go without wealth and today who, which is most powerful institution
that able to generate wealth is already created by the west, corporation,
companies, like East India Comapnies dulu, unfortunately, kita unthinkingly
seratu peratus ciplak, we adopt with unthinkingly , unchanged it. So, it cause

distortion in Muslims society. Thats why we are, we conflict even among

ourselves. Pakistan today, is dominated by forty families who are super rich.
They have, they would never have, they will be un end, un ending conflict
situation. Saudi Arabia todays dominated, of course they have seven thousand
princes, but seven thousand against, so its the same one percent besok, just like
in the west. In the west, it is not sensitive because.. it is not sensitive to they,
most of them couldnt care less about justice in the first place, and they all are
aspire to become the American dream apa semua tu kan. In Muslims countries,
from day one, because why? The marginialised and to this apprentice is always
promised by Islam, you have the power..to change. So, today, kalau you tak de,
to me, this is a revolutionary in a sense, kalau you takde, you dont represent the
interest of the marginalised this and precise. This is why the young one want to
go out and blew out everything. What is the future of their children? Imagine
you, aa..ada PHD tapi tak de kerja, kalau ni okay lah ye, emm..me too, kalau tak
de JCorp kan, even a young man in thirties and so on, struggling, based on gaji
2,600 living in Kuala Lumpur for example ya, desperately looking for another
job, why, nak kerja dua tiga job, which is crazy. We are destroying ourselves.
Interviewer
Interviewee

It is happening now actually.

This is what Im saying, and if we dont quickly do something different ya, we
dont do change, we dont change at all, it is going to explode in our faces. Its
already explode in Pakistan. Its already explode in Arab, Saudi Arabia ni because
of the wealth, they used to buy loyalty, but they cannot buy loyalty forever, its
going to explode each other in Arabian. Its going to explode in Jordan and so
on, and so i tell you, doing nothing is not an option. We are not sure, when this
will work, but it is about the session today kan, we do have some experience. In
the context of history, there are nothing. But then, theres go people analysed,
evaluating, if there is an opportunity to do something, then do something. As I
said dalam Many roads to Mecca, this is not, Im not saying that this is
{Interviewer interrupted: The}..the solution. Our duty is to look for solutions.
Im sure banyak jalan ke Mekkah kan, ha..if you found one that is workable, lets
push it, and get our leaders, politician and if not, through out them up. So, doing
nothing, no, is not an option for Muslim. Everything going to expert is already
exploding, people cutting sembelih orang apa semua, itu kana pa tu, marah,
because, Muslims are promised. You are the Khairu Ummah, dignity, Muslim
dignity todays at stake. And when people lose their dignity, they lose
everything. They will kill, they will and the ugly side of Muslim is unfortunate
today is being more expressed. We are promised that we can get back that
civilizational status, tapi kita kena carik lah, ha..Tuhan takkan bagi turun belebuk
daripada ayat, tak,ha..Baik, why corporate waqf? Why corporate? Because that is
the source of wealth and power and today, what is important? The promise in

business jihad is that you can be a millionaire and you can be. But once you are a
millionaire, dont forget..{Interviewer interrupted: To give back to the
community}..how to bring other side? This is what Im talking about kan, about
screening ke, ape ke kan, ha, {Interviewer interrupted: Ye}..those are mechanics
of it. But the fundamental tu, I..I..my concern is about the fundamental. The
fundamental says, we cant just simply adopt, we must adapt, and other than
adapt, we must also be creative. Waqf corporation is not purely a word thing, the
corporate, the fundament..because if its the word thing, the corporation atas,
waqf bawah kan? So, waqf mesti atas, because it s divines the context, define
everything, civilisational term values, Islamic values and so on. So, thats a great
thing about waqf. Waqf corporation structure, waqf first, corporation second.
Corporation is a tool. A tool doesnt matter where it is created. Rasulullah pun
cakap, tuntutlah ilmu walaupun sampai ke negeri China. Orang Islam tahu Islam
is only, syumul, complete. Kenapa dia suruh pergi ke negeri China? Of course
now they dont say it a hadith, they say it Arab punya saying, it doesnt matter. I
dont want to argue about that ye, I dont want. Orang kata bukan dari hadith ye,
dignity dia rendah kalau kena paksa pergi ke negeri China. Tapi buku yang saya
baca pun, yang written recently, semua recognise it as hadith. Di Malaysia, kita
tak recognise dia as hadith, sebab Cina ramai sangat jadi kita takut.(Clapping
sound)
But anyhow, that means used, Muslim dulu used technologies they dont like gun
powder, paper from China. It is nothing. We feel for example particularly in
modern world, bila kita berhadapan, when west overcome us. Before that we
were, we were superior to the west. One too clear example, Germany, apa nama,
Germany invented printing machine. Islam haramkan printing machine for 700
years, tak, tak 300 years. Seven come from the other example, radio. Radio was
invented by the west. Islam, ulama Islam khasnya di Mesir, Mesir ketika itu
very fragile, haramkan radio tujuh puluh tahun. By the time we realised printing
machine has changed, education and transport in the west. Dah lepas tiga ratus
tahun, we lsot that 300 years. Radio, by the time there is only, tak de orang nak
menghadap ke TV, tak de orang nak menghadap ke computer and so on. Kenapa
di haramkan? Just because it was invented in the west. Benda ni human punya
contribution kan, you see, whatever it is good kan, itu yang pergilah sampai ke
negeri China, haha..we missed all this, {Interviewer interrupted: Ehmm} because
kita terlalu nak kadang-kadang, maaf saya katakan, ulama ni pulak dia interpret
terlalu narrow, sama macam apa ni, hopeIm wrong ye, mungkin ada some la
ulama kat Majlis-Majlis ni narrow. Dia sempitkan interpretation of Islam tu,
thats why, we suffer.
Interviewer
Interviewee

What you say is it need to be flexible, to adapt to the...

Ya, but at the same time..{Interviewer interrupted: You have to go

Interviewer
Interviewee

through}..before you flexible, you kena tahu your limit. {Interviewer interrupted:
Ya} kan? {Interviewer interrupted: You have too}..who has put that limit? Islam.
You still to have to hold strong to the...Islam
Yes, that is also the reason why I deliberately choose to..apa nama..istilah Islam.,
to define this new concept change, that is supposed to initiate change. One is
business fundamental add on with jihad. Jihad defines business, not business
defines jihad. Secondly, jihad business is a real value drive, it is spiritual things,
it gives you passion, energy ye. It gives you sense of purpose hail meaning in do
business. But , how do you do it? You need to have an instruments, you need to
have an institution, corporation. Corporation is already proven track record dia
daripada 1600, 400 years track record and thats why today, China is jumping ye,
using that as well. Everybody, India, Brazil, we are not. Because I mentioned
yesterday, we have adopting companies. Saudi Arabia apa semua tetapi company
are still owned fundamentally control dia, by individual, Arab Muslims family.
Bila family,aa..saya bukan nak salahkan apa tu, faraid, tapi automatik but,
because you can still do the faraid, sebab Islam menganjurkan, harta yang
banyak ini, yang untuk keluarga tu bagi, kalau you ada 1 billion, anak lima
orang, you bagi sorang 2 million pun dah cukup untuk dia lima. Dia kena work
for themselves kan. {Interviewer interrupted: for them tu tak cukup tu Tan Sri,
haha..}..This because dia tak de semangat jihad,{Interviewer interrupted: Yes,
true}, jiwa jihad,jiwa Islam {Interviewer interrupted: Yes, to help}..tapi bukan
salah dia, sebab dia tak nampak alternatives.{Interviewer interrupted:
Hmm}.Pada dia cukup, pada dia memang comply with Islam, dia semua comply
with Islam kan, but you missed is on this point of building apa nama,
generational, energy, and apa nama, corporate punya tu kan, long term kan. The
west, we are today colonise by multinational corporation. Nestle, you punya
Colgate, you punya Milo semua, semua you beli daripada dia. Islam tegas
menyatakan ye, do not allow your money to separate among the rich. Tiap-tiap
kali you beli Colgate, you beli Milo apa ni semua, duit kita ni, pergi kepada
orang kaya, yang dekat Switzerland company nye, pangkalnya Jews yang
pegang. {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}. We dont realised that, so jihad business
is about, how we spend our every dollar, ha, itu saya belum sampai bab itu lagi.
Ye, dalam discussion ni baru structure,err.. power point apa semua ni kan,
changing in all attitude among all, consumers. Every Muslim consumer. Ada
bunuh diri in Malaysia, he spent every dollar. Today, kebanyakannya, Im not
trying to be racial and so on, but even Chinese and Mat Salleh do that. They
make sure that, their money goes among themselves and they will be rich. Kita
pulak contribute the same thing unthinkingly. So that, may, on the street pun,
every consumer, every household can participate in jihad business, not through
building a corporation. How you spend your money? The moment you support
the Malay enterprise, apa semua enterprise, they will succeed. For the moment,

Interviewer

Interviewee

Interviewer

Interviewee

unfortunately, Malay enterprises kebanyakan tak sampai kualiti dan sebagainya.

Our duty is how to..how to support and help them. How do you do it? Nanti
kalau kita kata, Oh, aku beli barang, kau sorang jadi millionaire! Kalau jihad
business datang, we dont mind, kan, dia pun tahu dia berjihad, the entrepreneur
themselves will changes his attitude, even though he is run all the business, jual
goreng pisang ke, retail shop ke kan, saya berjihad. Anak dia akan support,
family dia akan support, society akan support. Then, we go back and duit kita
sama kita, tak lepas sana, Insya Allah.
So, its balance the things off. The, you improve yourself totally, and the, but at
the same time you are be able to contribute to the development of ummah..
Its always by whats we want to do. Aa..its always,Malays and Muslims, if we
want to succeed, in business and what so ever ye, think, look, search for the
other word. Kadang-kadang kita pakai satu word je kita lupa, deliberately cari,
and of of those word must be Akhirat. Fundamental, dont miss out on that. So,
thats why saya circularised kan tu {Interviewer interrupted: Ye}, jihad business
tu, agenda pada saya, for waqf corporate, 5 words we want to do. Thats thinking
strategic. If, conventional thinking ni, buat satu, you dah success, ha dah cukup.
Thats only one. You must force yourself to think about the others and then you
start to be creative. Looking beyond, looking, thinking out side of the box it is,
and so on.
Just two more questions. Your legacy as a waqf corporation..{Interviewee
interrupted: If you think in the future you nak cut, ada gap lain yang ini ye, you
email apa semua, we can meet with team of yours apa semua, kalau tak go
through session like this, because..legacy?}
Your legacy at Johor Corporation?
It is not important my legacy. If I want to build a legacy, I wouldnt have
resigned. Im just a simple Muslim, I mean so I wasnt, when I do this, I wasnt
thinking of a legacy, I was thinking that I am a Muslim, Im going to face my
creator besok, Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala, shortly, and he has extended my life,
Alhamdulillah, orang Islam ni kalau lebih 63 tahun or 60 ye,{Interviewer
interrupted: Alhamdulillah} ha, so why I am here, because your subject is
corporate waqf. If it is nothing to do with jihad business, corporate waqf, I wont
be here. So, and I dont look at it as a form of legacy. This is Islam punya
fundamental aspirations, civilisation of aspiration and we all have duty, lets do it
together. What we will leave therefore, others will judge. Allah S.W.T akan
mengadili, Im not here to..kalau tidak macam saya kata la, kalau nak legacy, I
would rather have one million ringgit and then kan, can do more on my own,
waqf ke apa ke semua. That is the kan, you see i had one choice you know, see.
DR.Aliza ya, for example, about ten years ago, Mahathir and the government,
they all talk about privatisation, Halim Saat dapat ini, Tajuddin Ramli dapat
MAS. Macam saya cakap semalam, if I want the product of mine, I will get a big

Interviewer
Interviewee

slice of Johor Corp. I can bring Datin Paduka, give us all authorise, you might
elaborate kan. I will be a billionaire. Well create a one or two billion dollars,
you can create a fantastic legacy. But legacy is not the name of the game,
Rasulullah datang bukan nak legasi, dia messenger yang di titah oleh ni,
menyampaikan. Dia tak ada, so, kita try to follow Ameen, Im just saying
ha..thats all simple. Kita hendak apa, perut saya pun dah buncit already, so,
banyak mana yang you boleh makan, but for Muslim satu, when you go to the
next world, children, harta pun tak boleh tolong.{Interviewer interrupted:
Ya}.except three kan?{Interviewer interrupted: Three things that we know}.So,
pegang that tiga. Im trying to..anak-anak, tak de jaminan dia jadi anak yang
salih,mudah-mudahan, tapi tak de jaminan. Kalau jadi anak salih pun, tak doa
kat kita pun, tak dapat kan? But, there is no guarantee, mudah-mudahan. So,
chances are there, mudah-mudahan. If youve been a good parent apa semua.
Secondly, ilmu yang di manfaatkan, its your will, and this is why Aliza, you
bagi ceramah, you tulis buku, nak cuba reach that. Thirdly, jariah. Jariah, kita
takde duit sendiri, tapi melalui ini pun beri jariah ya {Interviewer interrupted:
Islamic way}..Ha..supaya, institutional approach ye, thats how the west
dominate all through this year, corporation. And corporation is designed just like
waqf, perpetual, selagi dia run profitably, thats why today, you have 1000 year
old company in Japan, in Holland, companies, the Chinese in South East Asia,
they all CVC dekat 50 tahun, Malay muslim ada apa? Tak de, sebab anak tak
masuk business, lepas tu harta bagi. Lama-lama tanah sekangkang kera. Dalam
buku tu saya tulis, saham sekadar semut pulak, lagi kecik bila anak dah ramai.
Your other question?
Last one, what do you see future..of corporate waqf here..in Malaysia?
We must make it success, and the..we, you see, a lot debate. We.. are in
democratic system, to me its surplus, democratic system. Because that means,
what we have overlook so far, Malays and Muslims are concern, is how to use
economic power vested in, the political power vested in the majority. We have
been independence for 50 years, but we realised that our position is been..,never
been more threaten than now. Its simply because we overlook. We were
assaulted and we will, always thinking about legacy and personal legacy of
leader, this one apa semua kan, so, we didnt focus on strengthening the
fundamentals in particularly in Muslims society. Muslims being the majority
under the multi democratic system, not only have the power, we focus on power,
but it is an opportunity got given, got rise ye, to define what Malaysian
civilisation will be, and we also need to do more than that. How Malaysian
muslim, can contribute to the global Islamic civilisation, and that is fundamental.
Today, Malaysian muslims all over the world is a mass, Alhamdullilah, kalau
kita tengok, there are only few, unfortunate, there are only few example, of at
least some major economic success with future hopes. In countries like

Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia. Malaysia is much more exciting because we are
in the midst of plural society. Today, because of internet and everything, the
world is so global. But, got, we already, we have already that ye. Pluralism
punya ras, so it, kalau kita nak perjuangkan Islam, we dont have to go to the
extreme like they do in Afghanistan, there is check and balance. Tuhan dalam AlQuran pun cakap ye, jadikan ni ni ni, supaya aa..so, Cina ramai kat sini, jadi
orang Melayu extremist Muslims pun, tak dapat..ha..ha..tak dapat nak ye.
Alhamdulillah, pada saya, satu nikmat, satu rahmat, itu yang tuhan bagi,
kelebihan. Apa yang kita nak buat, we have to, first to sell to the Chinese, thats
why if you are to meet success of the waqf and jihad business, it cannot be just
for the sake of the muslims. Anyhow, umat Islam ni di lahirkan dalam Islam, di
turunkan di bumi, bukan saja untuk orang Islam. Untuk memakmurkan seluruh
kehidupan manusia, jin, binatang, alam sekitar, smeua sekali. Sustainability that
youve been talking about ye..{Interviewer interrupted: ya..} of the..of life
system. The duty of a Muslim as Khalifah is that, thats is amanah, Tuhan bagi.
How to translate it? And this is why, in the context of we have a..an un ending
conflict . Bunuh membunuh Afghanistan..Pakistan, Arabs world and so on kan.
But Muslim solemn to the world are, and even the west are concern about it.
This is the moment we have to come with new ideas, what kind of new Muslims
society, without all this ye, defies, distortion apa semua. It is going to take 50
hundred years, just to think and define, to start this idea ye. So,..fundamentally in
my view, first of all, prosperity is gonna be .Islam clearly said ye, poverty,
deprivation will leads towards unfaith. Kefakiran membawa kepada kekufuran.
Hari ni, banyak kadang-kadang kita di Malaysia juga yang terpaksa berlaku
kufur, melakukan kekufuran, kadang jual anak ke, mak ke apa semua kan, lastly
because kekufuran, kesempitan hidup. {Interviewer interrupted: Ha}.
Kesempitan hidup today, bukan tak cukup makan ye, I am not in hunger or.. apa
nama deprivation totally sampaikan dua, anak-anak muda ini hari kalau gaji
1200 ye, 2000, nak kahwin pun tak de duit. Bila dia nak kahwin tak de duit,
nafsu ada. Aa..ini yang kita today, tapi Majlis Agama Islam ini nak
me..menangkap je sana bila sana, bila yang bersekedudukan. You dah solve the
root problem belum? The root problem is, macam di Turki ya, dia ada waqf yang
membantu, membantu orang muda yang tak mapu kahwin. You see, this is, this
big potential of waqf. Im just talking about waqf corporate because I want it to
be, waqf can be in the mean of business. But the other, the NGO side of it, the
CSR side of it, and he charity side of it, the fisabilillah side. Membantu budakbudak yang nak belajar tak de duit, kerajaan dah tak boleh lagi. What is the
future? If we dont do something like this, to generate our own wealth, we have
nowhere to turn to. Di situ, kalau kita tak dapat selesaikan masalah ini, today ye,
young Malays go out and export terrorism in their sense. They go to Philliphines,

and dia are at par with the global standards you know, boleh meletup sana sini.
They havent done it here, Alhamdulillah, why? It because generally, we are
better off than compared to Afghanistan and so on in term of living. Sana,
poverty, unemployment, 50% of the young people in Afghanistan, in the Arabs
world are unemployed. Another 50 million unemployment, 50 million population
ye, will..will of young peoples ni, the next 20 years, according to the sources,
UN ni apa semua. It is going to be serious chance, solution is, address poverty
and within today context, creating jobs, creating the opportunity. Thats mean
entrepreneurship, business ye, aa..corporate ways. Corporate ways you can do it
in multi..much larger scale, but re defines. This is why we discuss the concept
like mother corporation. Why mother corporation? So, that, kalau tak de concept
mother corporation, corporation dia buat duit, tapi dia tak thinks of opening
opportunities and doors for others yang tadi {Interviewer interrupted: The legacy
opportunity..} yang 2600, macam mana nak double their income kan?ha.. just
give them a good job and so on. Then, terpulang kepada kita la., kebaikan kita.
And I dont believe we have that tend..we need the example, mudah-mudahan
Malaysia, Indonesia, Turki, we are peaceful, because you need peace in order for
business to grow and expand kan? {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}..and then
the..we have to do it quickly, to show the Arab. Kita ni marah orang Arab apa ni
semua, merosakkan Islam sana sini kan,{Interviewer interrupted: Hmm}
What do we do? Show them a model and we have a fortunate. We are the one of
developed Muslim countries with the Turkey, but how to make sure that
Muslims here aa..get hold of this.(clanking sound) operate in this, to lead in the
business apa ni semua, on the structure based ini. So that, bila umat Islam di sini,
dia lebih makmur, lebih kaya, lebih apa, berlandaskan Islam. Mudah-mudahan it
is something which it comes about, what we need is about it. We need a model of
working aa..you know, but we need also the economic system model, an
alternative to extreme capitalism. Islam is not against capitalism, Rasulullah pun,
in the sense of capitalism, dia gunakan Siti Khadijah punya..at that time dah ada
dah itu kan, so mother corporation ni, we need Siti Khadijah corporation seolaholah, {Interviewwer interrupted: Yes}, and then senang orang nampak kan. Siti
Khadijah waqf corporation, aa..thats it. Bila orang tanya kenapa Siti Khadijah,
Rasulullah meniaga pun, modal di beri oleh Siti Khadijah, so that, is the concept,
terlupa saya nak sebut. Ha..ha..mother corporation {Interviewer interrupted: Siti
Khadijah}visualize, in your vision, bayangkan Siti Khadijah. How Rasulullah
was able? Kalau tak de Siti Khadijah, tak de duit, Rasulullah tidak akan naik..ha
di sebabkan, tak kan pergi ke sana sini aa..itu yang kan, thats what before dia
jadi rasul. Ini semua dah ada dalam Islam, to me. Unfortunately, kita ini hari, kita
takut Islam ramai, kita tak balik pada Islam, kita nak ketepikan, sebab kita nak
contohi barat. Banyak yang secular Malays, bukan salah dia, unthinkingly. How

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to change their mind sets? The real model, working model example, real life
itself. By itself, jadi kita tak bergaduh, tak payah ada revolution, tak payah apa,
besok anak-anak kita, tak payah pergi berjuang kat Syria, masuk IS apa semua tu
kan, ha..kalau dia pergi pun, dia bawa idea baru, new concept. Saya bukan kata
itu bukan jihad ye, macam orang kata itu bukan jihad. Saya kata itu serah pada
Allah S.W.T kan. Kita pun kalau threaten macam tu, kita akan bangkit, all for
fight wajib, berperang apa semua ni kan,{Interviewer interrupted: Ya, for the our
religion}but, we are not in that situation. Tapi, kita juga wajib berjihad. Dah la,
choose la your faith, {Interviewer interrupted: Ya}, mana nak pergi ke Syria tu,
pilihan dia, tu terpulang pada Allah kan. The rest of us, we still have to do
something. So , thats why, and it is not about creating a legacy, and besok nama
saya terkenal ke, not really, honestly {Interviewer interrupted:Ha..ha..mungkin}.
kalau nak, ada banyak cara, jalan lain. I could join a politic, ha..ha..but I didnt
want to, bcause saya perhati kawan-kawan saya masuk politik tak ke mana, I
could have, because that was an opportunity. Politician also, my sister is a
politician. The first woman minister, Tun Fatimah {Interviewer
interrupted:Oh, }..Hashim.{Interviewer interrupted: Okay} I could have join
politic and I served Rahman Yaakob, he between all this. because, saya sense,
politic anybody can go in, but this, maybe ya..I wanted to try, I didnt know I
have some, you know, neck for it. Saya pun tak pernah niat nak jadi entrepreneur
ke, business man, Allah punya kuasa. Tengok, no regrets and thats, for that
reason I resigned you, saya ada, kalau you nak baca ni, ada dalam dia punya
pengantar, saya ada sebut kenapa saya resigned.
So, basically, for the public to accept coporate waqf {Interviewee interrupted:
waqf concept}, there is a need to make them understand the benefits?
That is basic. In education formal itu kan{Interviewer interrupted: Yes}. Before
you can change mind sets, {Interviewer interrupted: If we educate them}.
Through out the Quran, ha..ha.. jahil kejahilan, I means understand it, kan.
This is what you are doing and..
Im trying to do, and we have reach the point where, who is the autorithy on..on
creating understanding. Who is the..Universities, you are the kan..aa..so, thats
why, saya tak berhenti, saya nak pegi haji ni pun, university yang jemput ye.
Dulu pun, bila Turki apa semua ni kan, .and then sebelum, I always has
fascinated to work with universities, because you are the people who can, first of
all, validate this, {Interviewer interrupted: Ya} or critically look into this kan.
Betul tak betul, gila ke kepala Mohd.Ali ni ke apa ni kan ha..ambil prudent
objektif{Interviewer interrupted: Right}
And once you see there is merit, if there is, you will definitely want to..hopefully
champion it because..showing that there is merit in it la, kalau takde merit, youll
be the first through out it merit kan. But in this case, we do have some track
record, {Interviewer interrupted: Ya} and its open to scrutiny kan. Ha..so, as you

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see, there is a chance, as I said, UMNO has already started to even though they,
Ministers macam saya kata sekarang, dia tanya kita, kalau saya waqf dapat apa,
maknanya Minister ni, dia fikir apa yang dia nak dapatkan, bukan dia nak
perjuangkan untuk kepentingan. Bcause they see, their position tu, in two three
years terms, election dah nak dekat ni, Im not sure Im going to be back, and
they want to make a smartest choice. Selagi orang Islam,di peringkat mana,
bukan sahaja dalam politik ye, dalam business, terlalu selfish, the way we can
win to fight against the west is, adalah Chinese. Its to put the side of selflessness.
In my second book, I read it, dalam hand out tu saya ada bagi konsep zuhud, ye,
that is very interesting concept. Zuhud means, to be selfless, to not to take the
world day terms. That is extreme power. {Interviewer interrupted: Hmm..}. Bila
you tak hendak dunia, you bersedia beredar mati that is semangat jihad. Dalam
business, buakn mati nyawa pun, mati business je, ha..ha..{Interviewer
interrupted: Ya}So..
Like you have said just now, the top people. It can be because they have actually,
or refuse to understand {Interviewee interrupted: Right}what waqf all about and
corporate waqf. What is waqf all about.
Right, kalau universities successful in changing mind sets of students, besok
yang nak change ni, kalau kita dalam demokratik system kan, the students will
lead. And if the voting of the majority corporation wants cake..no piliticians can
succeed. But sometimes, thats take a little bit of time and you need more
evidence. So, our focus today is to create more evidence, model ni semua kan,
working model. And Im also, in real ARI grant, to make success waqf, to
quickly..{Inetrviewer interrupted: show success story}..show success story and
Im as I said yesterday, Im approaching Tun Mahathir to be a member, world
member of..Mudah-mudahan Berjaya. Kalau dia endorse ni and so on, Insya
Allah ha.
Alright, shall we go inside, Tan Sri?
Okay, oh ye, dah habis ye. Insya Allah (clicking sound). Thank you.