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SHIUR TOPIC YOREH DEAH
SHOSHANIM
1 Hadacha Rishona Siman 69:1 Pages 1-9
2 Salted without a Hadacha Rishona Siman 69:2 Pages 11-16
3 The Salting Process Siman 69:3-6 Pages 18-25
4 The Final Rinsing Siman 69:7 Pages 29-33
5 If Hadacha Achrona was Not Done Siman 69:8-9 Pages 36-40
6 Masiach L’fi Tumo Siman 69:10 Pages 43-48
7 Meat Cooked Without Being Salted Siman 69:11 Pages 51-57
8 Three Day Old Meat Siman 69:12-13 Pages 59-64
9 Ta’aruvos of 3-Day Old Meat / Kavush Siman 69:14-15 Pages 66-69
10 Kli Shaino Menukav Siman 69:16-17 Pages 72-77
11 Kli Ehaino Menukav / Chalita Siman 69:18-19 Pages 81-85
12 Ma’ash D’Rashi Siman 69:20-21 Pages 88-94
13 Salting of Many Pieces of Meat Together Siman 70:1 Pages 96-101
14 Fish and Chicken Salted Together Siman 70:2 Pages 103-108
15 Kosher Meat & Treif Meat Salted Together Siman 70:3-4 Pages 110-115
16 Meat Salted Next to Other Meat Siman 70:5-6 Pages 117-124
17 Meat Than Fell into Tzir Siman 70:6 Pages126-130
18 Meat that Pickled in Tzir Siman 70:6 Pages 132-138
19 Heads, Hooves, Brains Siman 71 Pages 141-145
20 The Heart Siman 72:1-2 Pages 147-153
21 Chaticha Na’aseh Nevaila Siman 72:3-4 Pages 155-158
22 The Liver Siman 73:1-3 Pages 161-170
23 Liver with Meat Siman 73:4-6 Pages 173-178
24 The Spleen; Bnai Mayiim Siman 74; 75 Pages 180-184
25 Roasting Meat Siman 76:1-2 Pages 186-191
26 Roasting Meat Siman 76:3 Pages 192-196
Stuffed Chicken with Meat Siman 77
27 Pages 198-205
Coating Unsalted Meat Siman 78
1 Hadacha Rishona Siman 69 Pages 1-16
Effect of Salt
Rosh – only takes blood out
Other Poskim – salt also drives the surface blood into the meat (but not simultaneously)
SIX OPINIONS ON SALTING
רא"ה ר"ן מרדכי י"א סמ"ק רא"ש
Remove surface Soften
Remove surface
Remove Remove blood which stops surface to
Reason for1st Soak to soften blood,
blood on crusty salt from reacting allow blood
Washing meat considered
surface surface with blood in to easily
דם בעין
meat flow out
After 12 (or
No effect;
24) hours
If salt left on Wash and
meat
resalt
forbidden
Before 12
No effect; Forbidden
Salted without (or 24) Wash and Wash and
Wash and Wash and resalt דם בעיןdriven
1st washing hours resalt resalt
resalt into meat
permitted
No need to
If cut meat Creates new
Creates new wash again;
after washing No need to surface blood No need to
surface blood and not worried
but before wash again and needs wash again
needs washing about surface
salting washing
blood
Washing Not Not
Good Good Not sufficient Good
superficially sufficient sufficient
Meat 60x
Wash and Wash and Wash and
greater than Good Wash and resalt Good
resalt resalt resalt
surface blood
Mechaber: holds like Mordachai
Rama: like Mordachai (hefsed m’rubah), concerned about Smak and l’chatchila
-concerned about all opinions; meat must be soaked for a half hour
Butchers Rinsing
-Prisha: don’t need salt meat immediately after soaking; Bach: don’t fear butcher didn’t rinse well
-Bach: not afraid that meat got dirty again from the blood in the butcher’s place
Chavas Da’as: if rinsing done in slaughter house when meat still warm then soaking isn’t necessary.
Shach: if butchers did a good rinsing than a soaking is not necessary
Hooves-Rama: hooves removed after washing, need wash again;
Shach: hooves not removed, washing good
Hadacha Muetes-M’ikar hadin we are worried about blood on the surface of the meat
Mechaber: L’catchila wash the surface fairly well, since that is what the butchers did
Rama - l’chatchila soak the meat; b’dieved:
1. If did superficial rinsing-it is good enough if now salted; if not salted, then soak
a. R’ Akiva Eiger: only enough if already cooked
2. If did a good rubbing-Shach: good enough even if meat not salted (don’t need soak)
a. R’ Akiva Eiger: only good enough if was salted
3. Chachmas Adam: in great need, don’t have to soak for 1/2 hour
a. wash & scrub meat well, wash until water clear
Frozen Meat
Shach: cannot salt until defrosted
Pri Chadash: can combine the time of salting from before and after the meat was frozen
Sifsai Da’as: don’t combine
2 Salted without a Hadacha Rishona Siman 69:2 Pages 11-16
Two Exceptions
Washed superficially and 60 meat against surface blood
Washing Not Not Not
Good Good Good
superficially sufficient sufficient sufficient
Meat 60 times
Wash and Wash and Wash and Wash and
greater than Good Good
resalt resalt resalt resalt
surface blood
Taz & Shach hold that Rama would say mutar b’dieved if salted even if not cooked yet
-do not need to wash and resalt
R’Akiva Eiger says need to resalt (except for hefsed m’rubah)
Halacha like R’ Akiva Eiger
Fine Salt
Rambam – fine salt would be absorbed into the meat and would not draw out the blood
Rosh - fine salt better because its sticks better and easier to cover the meat
Bais Yosef – Rambam only use coarse salt; Rosh even coarse salt can be used
Mechaber use salt not too fine and not too course
Rama if only have fine salt can use; does not seem to be arguing on the Mechaber
Shiur of a Mil
Shach – 18 minutes (Chazan Ish b’dieved)
Rambam (PriChadash) 24 minutes
Gr’a: 22 ½ minutes (Mishna Breruah Paskins like the Gr’a)
Rama: custom to salt meat for 1 hour
4 The Final Rinsing Siman 69:7 Pages 29-33
Mechaber: final washing done by washing meat off twice; shaking salt does not replace washing
Rama: done by washing three times; shaking can be in place of one hadacha
L’chathilah one should rinse or shake off the salt before placing it in vessel to wash
B’dieved it is mutar and can proceed with washing
Salting does not remove blios from vessels, thus does not matter the type of vessel for washing
Only Like the Original אין הנאסר יכול לאסור במקום שהאיסור עצמו יכול לילך שם
Salt has the taste of blood and blood can only spread to a maximum of 60 times itself
Kli Shaini
Rama does not permit; Marashal permits meat the was placed in kli shaini
Taz relay b’dieved; Shach only hefsed m’rubah
Minhag Yisrael
Bach and Drisha: don’t believe if non-Jew knows minhag Yisrael
Taz and Shach: disagree; still believe מסיח לפי תומו
L’halacha
Safek Hadacha Achrona
Shach: Mechaber (Smak) fear of being caught and Jew going in and out
Rama one proof is enough
Hechser Kalim
Mechaber says non-Jew not believed mas’la’t;
-chazaka d’issura can’t be broken by mas’la’t
-(an issur d’rabbanan without chazaka could be)
Taz says a mas’la’t is stonger than a chazaka in case of issur d’rabanan
Shach says not stronger unless additional factor (like )קפדי אמקיותא
Meliga-Unsalted chicken put into hot water, don’t know if kli shani or kli rishon
Mechaber – doesn’t rely on mas’la’t
Rama
-Pri Megadim: also a case of chazaka of issur; no other factors no mas’lat
-Minchas Ya’akov: in this case mas’la’t works (not a case of chazaka issur
Issur Davuk
Blood and salt on the meat is not an issur davuk; what about blood in the meat?
2 ways become an issur davuk
- ממהר לבלועthe first place the issur would spread is to what is attached
שמא היה פעם אחת חוץ לרוטב- Perhaps piece with issur attached would go above the
rotav and then rest of pot could not be mitztaref
Taz : 2 reasons
1. Chance blood moved from place to place and now wouldn’t come out
2. Blood “like” an issur davuk; perhaps meat was lifted out of the rotav
Mitzb’tzvos Zahav: by an issur d’rabbanan don’t worry about the second reason
Shach: only brings first reason; ch’n’n not applicable since the meat did not start out as issur
Is the Meat Itself Included?-Can one count the meat against its own blood?
Ravad (above) says yes
Taz: Ran & Rashba: can count
Rambam: since blood is issur d’oraisa, do not include in count
Tur & Rosh: blood spreads evenly, meat retains original issur, then do not include
-Pri Megadim: only by Kchal lenient
Nekudas Hakesef: can’t be counted, since moves before cooking, so assur m’doraisa
Pri Chadash: can include (Rashba)
Mishb’tzvos Zahav: cannot include (need 60 without piece of meat to be m’vatel)
Rama: meat is assur even though 60 against, except in hefsed m’rubeh
Hollow Chickens
Taz: assur even if 60 against
-blood will go out of one side of the chicken to other side prior to being batel
Shach: argues on Taz; as soon as comes out, batel in the water
Three Day Old Meat-sat for three days without being salted
-Meat hardens and blood does not flow easily
-Rama: 3 day old meat treated like meat that was not salted at all
-R’ Akiva Eiger: assur even if hefsed m’rubeh since dam she’parush, so issur blood cooked
Meat Salted Without a Hadacha Rishona-cooked with 60 against=Assur even in hefsed mrubeh
-Can’t use two kula for a hefsed m’rubah; 1.blood stayed in didn’t move, 2.1st wash to soften meat
8 Three Day Old Meat Siman 69:12-13 Pages 59-64
Mechaber: Meat left for three days without salting, can’t salt (blood dried out)
-Must roast; can only cook b’dieved after it was roasted
Mechaber: If immersed in water once in the three days can be left three days more minus ½ hour
-Rama: Meat salted and not sure if salting was within three days=mutar
-No direct source for this din
Tur: meat sits out for 3 days מעת לעתwithout salting, then hardens; salt will not draw out
Rosh: Tzli is stronger than melicha that it will draw out blood from meat
-Bishul is stronger than Tzli
מליכה אוסרת כדי קליפה
צלי אוסרת כדי נטילה
בישול אוסרת כדי שישם
Three Cases
1. 3-day old meat salted in a כלי מנוקבand then in a כלי אינו מנוקב
Rashal (Taz): all that was coming out came out in first salting and 2nd did nothing
Nekudas Hakesef: 2nd time gives off a small amount of blood and problem
Shach: machmir against Taz in this case
2. 3-day old meat salted in a כלי מנוקבwith other meat that is being salted
Taz: Since not giving off blood can absorb from others and won’t carry out
Nedudas Hakesef: little bit is enough to say כבולו כך פולטו
-Shach: maikil against the Taz
Mechaber (Mishb’tzos Zahav): would matir roasting 3-day old meat
-since no tzir and it would take out the blood absorbed from other meats
Rama: Disagrees with this din
3. If salted in a כלי אינו מנוקבwith other meat that was salted and rinsed
Taz: Worried that little blood comes out of 3-day old meat and assurs other meat
R’ Akiva Eiger: assurs other meat even in a kli with holes
Mishb’tzos Zahav: assurs only in vessel with no holes
Reason Case 1 Case 2 Case 3 no holes
Salt takes out first time
Taz and what is left will not Maikel Machmir assur
come out second time
Worried salt would draw
Shach Machmir Maikel Assur
out some blood
Mechaber: 3 day old meat, not salted, mixed with other pieces= batel b’rov (even if r’u’ya l’chabed)
Rama: Even if cooked after three days and not salted
Kavush
Taz: Meat that hasn’t been finished salting
Shach: Dom B’ain
-also maybe not Dom B’ain or dom ha’avarim (like Taz)
Rashal: Meat is assur even if 60
Taz: Meat can be salted if 60
Shach: Since water is 60 against it, not worried about Dom B’ain
Yalkut Yosef: Dom Kavush is Assur Mid’rabbanan
Halacha L’ma’aseh
Mechaber: meat left in water, less than 60, for 24 hours can be koshered by Tzli
Rama: meat is assur and Tzli can not help
Rama: If 60 against, matir even by melicha
- Shach: only by Tzli can matir (follow if no Hefsed M’rubah)
10 Kli Shaino Menukav Siman 69:16-17 Pages 72-77
Mechaber two opinions: Assur to use for hot food; or, even for cold foods
-Taz: first opinion kli is cold after salt is removed; 2nd holds kli is hot until cooked
-R’ Akiva Eiger: both opinions kli is considered cold;
-question is whether vessel is assur for cold food without washing (or wiping)
Shach: explains Rama
-Plate hot and food is dry, take off a klipa; if not completely dry then take off a k’dai ntila
Kli Cheres
Shach (Rama): Kli Cheres can not be used without washing; other vessels can
Others hold: can’t be used even after washing since can’t be koshered (might use for hot)
Meat salted in a kli without holes for time it takes to boil water
Mechaber: Everything in tzli Assur (even by roasting)
Rama: Everything (in tzir and out) is Assur
-even if not shiur melicha, but enough time to see tzir
-only piece sitting in tzir is assur, not ones on top
Salted and Washed Meat in Water
Mechaber: Can put in any water; some say put in boiling water
Rama: Holds like the first opinion
Chalita – quick boil to solidify the meat so the blood does not move
Bais Yosef: Rambam holds that salt does not take out all the blood, thus need Chalita
Aruch Hashulchan: Rambam if salt on meat more than 36 minutes doesn’t require chalita
-custom to leave on for one hour
Mechaber
1. Shach: l’chatchila do chalita
2. like most poskim: only 18 minutes to draw all the blood out
3. True not all blood comes out in 18 minutes
-but if follow minhag of one hour, safe to assume all blood came out
12 Ma’ash D’Rashi Siman 69:20-21 Pages 88-94
Meat salted for shiur and placed w/out hadacha achrona in vessel w/out holes
-vessel filled up with tzir
Is blood coming out after shiur melicha?
Rashi: only mohhel and not dom
Would salt and tzir cause the blood to absorb back into the meat?
Tosefos: mohel does not cause dom on the meat to be absorbed and assur the meat
Bach: mohel like water and negates the strength of the salt
Taz: salt losses its strength
Tosefos: dom dries up in the salt; Rosh: its strength has dissipated
Mechaber brings A) the above case and B) where meat placed in mohel of other meat
Yaish Omrim both cases be careful l’chathila, b’dieved mutur (mohel has din of blood)
Rama: brings Tosefos & Ra’aim who disagree with Rashi; (mohel not like blood)
-Since tzir comes out after shiur melicha is still hot, assur d’dai klipa immediately
Rashal (Taz): if meat is in tzir for zman kavisha (time to pickle in salty liquid), all in tzir = assur
If 60 against the tzir, without counting the meat, what about what is in the Tzir?
Rashal if 60 times the meat against the tzir (with meat in tzir) = whole piece Mutar
R’ Akiva Eiger: even if 60, still assur kdai klipa
When salt is drawing out blood
-we can be maikil in a hefsed m’rubeh after shiur melicha (it loses its heat)
-but when drawing out blood, stays hot all the time
The Kli
Shach: melicha assurs kli a k’dai kelipa
Sifsai Da’as: melicah assurs kli cheres entirely
-Minchas Ya’acov: even a kli cheres only assur k’dai kelipa
Halacha
Mechaber: holds like Tosefos; B’dieved: Rabosav of Rashba
Rama: concerned about Rabainu Tam l’chathila
Taz: Rama=Yesh Mefarshim; must wait another shiur melicha for the bottom piece
Shach: Rama=Tosefos; bottom piece does not have to wait another shiur melicha
Salting Twice-Rosh: salt only takes out blood; Other Rishonim: salt will also absorb
Taz: Rama says Mutar, since tzir is coming out the meat, it will not absorb the blood
-Mishb’tzos Zahav: main reason כבולעו כך פולטו
-Chavas Da’as: nature of salt to take out and absorb simultaneously
Fowl quickly finishes giving off all its tzir; becomes eligible to absorb the blood of the chicken
Fish on Top
Nature of blood not to spread upwards
-Shach: blood does spread upwards k’dai klipa
-Minchas Yaakov: by meat in rotav; cut kdai klipa on part above the rotav
-not able to cut exactly at the tzir line; does not apply to salting fish with meat
-Rama: machlokes Shach and Minchas Yaakov if fish is assur k’dai klipah
If the Fish was not Salted-Can the chicken blood piggyback out when the fish is now salted?
Rama: chicken blood can piggyback on top of the fish blood
Mechaber: disagrees; 4 reasons (Taz)
1. Once fish has name “assur” can not become mutar
2. Fish blood not same as meat blood; more like tzir; not thick enough to push out
3. Fish finishes giving off tzir before 18 minutes; leaves behind chicken blood
a. Chicken blood takes more than 18 minutes
4. Chicken blood permeates fish flesh in such a way that can not come out with the fish blood
-Vilna Gaon: agree with Rama
-Yalkut Yosef, Kaf HaChaim, Mishb’tzos Zahav: agree with Taz (Mechaber)
Is Eating Meat that was Salted with Fish Hazardous to One’s Heath?
-Not when salted together, only cooked or eaten together
15 Kosher Meat & Treif Meat Salted Together Siman 70:3-4 Pages 110-115
Kosher Meat and Treif Meat Salted Toghether-(even if kosher meat not salted)
-Kosher Meat assur k’dai klipah (only absorns treif tzir)
Salted Kosher Meat with Non-salted non-kosher meat Mixed together
-mutar by washing off (both kosher on top or bottom); only at a distance where tzir can reach meat
- Some say: Osser if Side by Side
-Rama: If treif salted and kosher unsalted; kosher piece is assur
Kosher or Non-Kosher Piece Fatty-Entire kosher piece assur if treif piece salted and on bottom
Pickling in Tzir
-Rosh: pickling in Tzir happens quickly, because salty; like cooking
-if less than shiur kevisha, then assur kdai klipa
Sitting Less than 24 hours:
-First reason of Shach-can be resalted (kavush b’tzir is not exactly like cooking; still gives off)
-Second reason of Shach: can’t be resalted (this is a case of a kli that has holes; tzir draining slowly)
Sitting more than 24 hours- everyone says can not resalt
After 18 Minutes
-Rashal: Only tzir left so can’t say won’t absorb
-Rama: if only tzir, still will carry out blood, so won’t absorb
Less than 18 Minutes-Rama: Whatever is sitting in tzir is assur
-Maharshal: if leess than 18 minutes (shiur Melicha) then only assur klipah
-Shach: agrees with Rama; by melicha need 60, and tzir has din of melicha; everything in tzir assur
Case Two: Meat fell into a vessel with holes that has tzir slowing draining
Sifsai Da’as: tzir won’t make absorb dom b’ain
Meat that did not have a first washing Pri Meadim: maikel l’chavod orchim
Dagul Meravavah: mutar in a hefsed mrubeh
Taz: Assur (pickled & blood not coming out)
Rashal: can be resalted
Meat that did have a first washing
Mutar B’dieved by both
Sifsai Da’as: Hefsed Merubah rely on Shach
Rashal: wash off and resalt; small amount of blood left in
will carry out all absorbed during kavush (sifsai da’as)
Meat during shiur melicha
Taz: meat is assur
Shach: meat can be resalted, but must be washed
Rama: assur immediately & also what is in the tzir
Meat that has been salted,
Rashal: in the tzir=assur kdai klipa;
but between shiur melicha and 12 hours
but meat can not be resalted (tzir won’t carry out blood)
Meat immediately assur
Shach: everything in the tzir assur, even hefsed merubah
Meat salted,
Rashal: assur klipa if not in tzir for shiur kvisha
But between 12 and 24 hours
Taz: Meat can be resalted in hefsed merubah
Sifsai Da’as: Taz assurs for meat salted over 12 hours
Rama: machmir; everything in tzir is assur immediately
Meat salted for more than 24 horus Rashal: after pickled meat=assur;
before pickled assur kdai klipa
18 Meat that Pickled in Tzir Siman 70:6 Pages 132-138
Case Three: Meat fell into Vessel without holes that has Tzir in it
Shach & Taz: Not assur
Meat that did not have a first washing Mechaber, Rama: Not assur even klipa
Mishb’tzos Zahav: only if doesn’t sit shiur k’visha
Remove before 18 minutes; can salt to take out tzir
Meat that did have a first washing
After 18 minutes, machlokes
If meat touches bottom then immediately a case of
salting a vessel without holes (Shiur 10)
Meat during shiur melicha
Chavas Daas: meat did’nt fall to the bottom;
meat in tzir=assur, meat above=mutar
Meat that has been salted, If less than shiur k’visha, then same as above #4
but between shiur melicha and 12 hours If more than shiur k’visha, then Rama assures all
Meat immediately assur
Shach: everything in the tzir assur, even hefsed
merubah
Meat salted between 12 and 24 hours Rashal: assur klipa if not in tzir for shiur kvisha
Taz: Meat can be resalted in hefsed merubah
Sifsai Da’as: Taz assurs for meat salted over 12
hours
Rama: machmir; everything in tzir is assur
immediately
Meat salted for more than 24 horus
Rashal: after pickled meat=assur;
before pickled assur kdai klipa
No Flow
Meat fell into tzir during shiur melicha; 3 scenarios:
1. A vessel with holes: entire piece is mutar
2. A vessel with holes but the tzir is not draining: only part in tzir is assur
3. A vessel without holes: entire piece is assur
Negating the Tzir-Rama: small amount of water mixed with Tzir won’t make assur
Shach: says Rama means must be mostly water to negate Tzir
R’ Akiva Eiger: each case must be decided by how the Rav sees it
19 Heads, Hooves, Brains Siman 71 Pages 141-145
Heads
-Head split in two and salted on both sides and hair does not interfere (Rashba)
-If hair does not prevent, why salt on both sides?
-Rashba allows salting on one side, why matter if hair does not prevent, still salted inside?
-Bais Yosef: split open to allow blood inside to come out; l’chatchila need to salt both sides
-Shach & Taz: preffered method to split head open, but not required (can make hole)
-Mishb’tzos Zahav: preffered since a hole needs to face down to allow flow
-maybe hair does impede the salting (but first is correct, since hair does not impede)
-Tshuvas Bais Yaakov: must split head before salting; required m’ikar hadin (argue Shach & Taz)
-Pische Teshuva: disagrees; even though blood collects, it can still be drained (like heart)
Hoofs
Mechaber: if foot salted upright with the hoof, the foot and meat in the hoof are mutar
Rama: says hoof assur, but rest of foot mutar
Shach: the part of the foot that is in the hoof is assur; rest mutar, even if upright
Brains
If no hole, then two issurim when salting the head with the brain:
1. Krum assur due to blood vessels
2. Brain becomes assur because it is being salted in a place without holes
Mechaber: by roasting we can say nostrils are like holes if placed on bottom
-Shach: only helps by roasing; by salting need a hole
-Sifsai Da’as: brain and krum have more blood than other places; need hole for blood to drain
-If roasted, don’t need hole; since fire is stronger that melicha
Chicken
Mechaber: No chicken has less than 60 against the heart; mutar even if heart davuk to chicken
Rama: If part of chicken need 60 against entire chicken (Ch’N’N)
Mechaber: lungs don’t need to be opened; larger cavitites should be opened
Efshar L’esochato
-blios absorbed in piece spread to point don’t give taste to original piece; still original piece assur
Rama: Original piece remains assur, even if 60 against
Mechaber: does not hold by Ch’n’n by shaar issurim or by Issur Davuk,
-but machmir by Efshar L’sochato
Rama: machmir by Efshar L’sochato, Issur Davuk and Ch’N’N by Sha’ar Issurim
-R’ Akiva Eiger: Halacha only applies if heart not salted
-heart salted even without opening, then blood in heart’s cavity is not issur davuk
-a whole pot can mitztaref to mevatel the heart
22 The Liver Siman 73:1-3 Pages 161-170
Spleen
Mechaber: even though bloody appearance (from color of fat) still same laws as meat
-don’t need cut open, no somponos; chailev and krum need to be removed
Kidneys and Testicles
-Rama: Can’t cook Kidneys and testicles; too much blood; b’dieved not worried
-Mutar to salt spleen, kidneys and testicles w/ meat; as long as chailev and krum removed
-can’t be koshered by salting
-Bais Rosef (Rokeach): kidneys can’t be koshered by salting
-Issur V’heter: same applies to baitzai zachar
-Bais Yosef: can be salted; Darchei Moshe: b’dieved if salted and cooked=mutar
Bani Mayiim (Innards)
-Mechaber: Cook w/out Roasting=Mutar, if don’t become red (little blood after fat removed)
-Rama: Mutar if salted in Kli w/out holes; l’chatchila salt in kli w/ holes and do hadacha rishona
-some say keres & stomach’s chambers have blood; assur b’dieved salted in kli w/out holes
-Mechaber: Fat around innards have din of meat; don’t salt intestines on inside; salt fat on outside
-Rama: Intestines cooked after salted on inside treif w/ unsalted fat; not cooked, salt on outside
Eggs Found in Chicken
-Need to salt if found during yoke stage of development; salt eggs w/ meat
- white stage complet, shell hard=salt eggs, but not with meat; b’dieved salted w/ meat=Mutar
Bnai Mayim w/out Fat-Mutar to salt w/ meat
-Rama: L’chatchila don’t salt with meat; b’dieved Mutar to salt with meat
Fat of Entrails on Intestines
-Some osser to cook even if opened and salted, because marbled with veins; remove veins=mutar
What is counted as Innards?
-Rashi: includes the קיבה וכרס
Ran: agrees to Rashi; bnai mayiim little blood; nothing comes out during cooking
-Mordechai & Ran: hold the כרסis not included
-Taz & Shach: Kurkaban counted as Innards, but has din of meat
Rama: salt bnai mayiim l’chatchila in Kli Menukav
-Shach & Taz: hold bnai mayiim in and of themselves do not need salting
-impossible to completely remove the shuman; shuman requires salting
-Levush (Mishb’tzos Zahav): bnai mayiim require salting; some blood will come out during salting
-even though 60 against blood, to cook without salting would m’vatel issur l’chatchila
Shuman
-Taz & Shach: mutar salt shuman on intensine’s outside (not on inside) l’chathila, not much blood
-Taz can salt on the outside if already salted on inside
Cooked with 60-Rama: meat cooked w/out salting=assur
Toras Chatas: if 60 against the shuman, shuman Mutar if cooked bnai mayiim w/out salting
Shach: Shmuan Mutar B’dieved:
1) Shuman dissolves instantly into the pot and spreads equally throughout the pot
2) Shuman’s blood not visiable to the eye; don’t worry about issur davuk (only chumra)
-Hold like Mechaber that food in pot will mevatel the taste of blood
Eggs
-Taz, Shach and Rashal: argue on Rama; eggs assur if salted with meat
-Eggs don’t give off tzir and thus can absorb; shells are porous (more than kli cheres)
Bnai Mayiim mutar even though salted w/ meat, even though less blood-2 reasons:
1) Blood from the meat slides off; Mishrak sharik
2) Bnai mayiim give off tzir, so won’t absorb
25 Roasting Meat Siman 76:1-2 Pages 186-191
-Mechaber: Don’t need salt Meat if Roasted; blood drops on roasting meat, assur k’dai n’tila
-Meat can be salted without washing if roasting; some say only if roasting immediately
-if meat resting with salt on it, salt absorb blood and be assur, do hadacha before roasting
-Rama: Kashering by Tzli requires Hadacha Rishona; Meat should be lightly salted
-custom: On skewer, lightly salt and wash; roast immediately before blood fills salt
-if Roasing without wash and meat not salted or salted without washing=Mutar
-if didn’t sit for shiur melicha w/out washing; sat for shiur melicha before roasting assur
-Rama: No difference if roasting fowl that has a cavity; as long as not stuffed with eggs or meat
-if stuffed with eggs or meat, din of being cooked, fowl should be salted before roasting
-Rama: Roasting meat w/out salting: don’t turn spud (let fire draw blood); B’dieved mutar
-halacha same whether eaten roasted or cooked afterwards
-Meat considered roasted when fit to eat
-Tzli needs hadacha after roasting (some blood left in); b’dieved mutar
-Meat salted before roasting and roasted without hadacah achronoa=mutar (blood on salt drawn into
fire)
Extracting Blood by Tzli
-Meat can be eaten raw (schected on Shabbos) until the blood moves
- Tosefos, Rosh, Ran: roasted meat does not need salting (blood doesn’t move) (Mechaber)
-Not completely roasted Mutar; even though blood moves, not assur until comes out of meat
-Rashi: should be salted slightly first
-Shach: according to Mechaber if meat is roasted don’t need hadacha rishona
K’dai Klipa / K’dai Natlia
-Drop of blood falls on to meat
-Mechaber: While roasting drop assures k’dai n’tila
-Rama: melicha and more so tzli assurs up to 60
Even 60 melicha/tzli, where drop fell assur k’dai kelipa or n’tila; 2 reasons (Mishb’tzos Zahav):
1) Don’t know difference between lean and fat perhaps did not spread
2) Impossible that an imprint was not made at point of contact, even thought it spread later
-Mechaber: assur eat chicken roasted whole if jugular veins not cut; roast chicken piece by piece
-assur eat chicken uncooked not cut up and salted
-if remove veins: eat unsalted and uncooked or roasted whole
-Machmir: don’t eat chicken roasted whole unless cut jugular veins and 1/2 esophagus & windpipe
Knife Used to Cut while Roasting
-Don’t cut unsalted meat unless roasted enough to be edible (knife will absorb blood)
Shpud Used to Roasted Unsalted Meat=Assur
-Some Say: Assur leave meat on shpud after roasting (meat will absorb blood from shpud)
-Minhag: Meat Mutar in above cases
-Rama: L’chatchila don’t, but Meat mutar B’dieved
Rotary Grill-Rama: W/ Unsalted meat, don’t continuously turn Shpud
-to avoid the meat remaining in the meat rather than being drawn into the fire; B’deived is mutar
-Sifsai Da’as: Makes distinction between turning once in a while and continuously
Electricity
-Yad Ephraim: heat of a fire (fire extinguished) can draw out the blood
-Igros Moshe: permits meat/liver to be koshered on an electric grill; even if heat coming from above
Ground Meat
-meat ground w/ hadacha rishona, kasher by tzli (b’dieved meat mutar w/out firsr or last washing)
-no distinction about size of the meat
-due to Mishraek sharik & Mishav Sha’ive, blood won’t move to other pieceswhile roasting
Knife and Shpud
-Mechaber: l’chatchila cut the meat with a knife even while being roasted and shpud is mutar
-Rama: piece isn’t roasted to where all blood extracted, then don’t cut w/ knife, shpud assur
-if cut, knife if mutar; shpud needs libun (heated till red hot); no libun, meat mutar b’dieved
Rashal: b’dieved knife mutar; l’chatchila shpud needs libun and the knife needs hagalah
Taz: b’dieved the shpud is assur
-Mishb’tzos Zahav: Reason why shpud is assur l’chatchila: fixed in mixed, absorbs blood; no tzir
-Sifsai Da’as: Assur L’chatchila since fire can’t reach it
Halacah L’Maaseh:
1. Grill that meat or liver cooked on mutar l’chatchila, (mishrak sharik & fire has direct contact)
2. Mini grill that clamps onto meat or liver=assur l’chatchila(lodged into the meat/liver like shpud)
Bread w/ Roasted Meat-If meat roasted so fit to eat=Mutar; even though bread appears red
-Rama: Must be fire roasted half-way, then gravy permitted by itself
-Halacha like Rava: who holds that Mutar even if:
-1) bread turns red, 2) see redness on both sides brea, 3) liquid coming out of meat was thick.
-Rashba: According to Gemara if partially cooked (RamaL ½) and has these three then Assur
Kli under Unsalted Meat Roasting- don’t place kli unless roasted enough to eat
-Can’t place kli under roasting meat to collect fate until redness fades; Mar Zutra: smoke appears
-Rav Ashi: Place salt in kli, lets fat go to the top
-Tur: not experts in how much salt to use (Rashi); roast half-way before putting kli
Cooked Half Way
If meat half cooked, sure all the blood has been extracted
-Before that point, meat assur l’chathila (Shach)
Stuffed Chicken with Meat Siman 77
27 Pages 198-205
Coating Unsalted Meat Siman 78
Fowl or Kid stuffed with Unsalted Meat-Kasher by Tzli; even if opening turned up
-even if Chicke salted stuffed w/ unsalted meat cac roast (will spit out whatever absorb)
-Rama: Can roast chicken even if inside salted and outside unsalted (fire will draw out blood)
Kashering the chicken by salting pot for cooking=assur
-If salted outside & inside separately=mutar
-If fowl or kid stuffed then salted, salt doesn’t extract from inside
-Rama: L’chatchile don’t stuff chicken/kid unless Salted both inside and Outside
Stuffing Itself-Rama: Above only applies by vegetables and meat
-boiled eggs assur b’deived (like unsalted chicken cooked in a pot), if chicken & stuffing not salted
Roasting with stuffing
-Rif: stuffing Mutar even if opening turned up; only by roasting due to כבולו כך פולטו
-Rosh: melicha permitted if both outside piece and stuffing are salted
-Tosefos: l’chatchila stuffing is permitted because fire extract blood better than salt
-Rashi: needs lightly salted to permit by roasting
-Mechaber: follows Rif, Rosh and Tosefos: outside salted and inside is unsalted Mutar to roasted
Rama: l’chatchila Assur to roast stuffed meat unless both stuffing and meat salted (Rashi)
-Rama & Mechaber: Assur to Kasher meat and stuffing by Melicha if only outside and not inside
Nimlach Hachitzon Velo Hameluiah-Outside salted, but stuffing unsalted
-Mechaber: Mutar (baluya and plaita happen at the same time); didn’t say how long salted; learn:
1) If outside piece salted for 24 hours, still say כבולו כך פולטו
-Chidush: usually only if blood left in (Rashal); at least some tzir left in (Rama)
2) If outside salted less than 18 minutes still say ;כבולו כך פולטוeven thought not on fire
Nimlach Hameluiah Velo Hachitzon-Stuffing salted but not the outside
-Rama: blood drawn to the fire, and inside does not absorb any blood; even if inside washed off
Rashal:inside salted for shiur and outside not, then inside will absorb blood (not in contact w/ fire)
Sifsai Da’as’ five cases of stuffing meat with meat
1. Both insalted: then apply כבולו כך פולטו
2. Both are in the middle of shiur melicha: all mutar
3. Inside not salted and outside in middle of salting: Inside Assur immediately
4. Inside salted for shiur and outside not salted or in middle of shiur melicah: inside assur
5. Inside in middle of shiur and outside is salted: Mutar
Salted After Stuffed-salt will not extract blood from inside
Shach: we don’t look at inside and outside as one thick piece; outside like meat salted on one side
-in a hefsed merubah, outside mutar
-Taz: not like one side salted; hefsed merubah assur (chicken’s outides’s inside’s blood blocked)
Stuffing w/ Boiled Eggs and Meat-Shach: like stuffing w/ eggs; Rashal: like stuffing w/ meat
Roasting Salted Meat w/ Unsalted Meat
-Mechaber: Mutar roaste salted meat w/ unsalted meat (like roasting stuffed meat w/ outside salted)
-Rama: l’chathila assur, mutar b’deived
Spreading before Roasing on Unsalted Chicken-Mechaber: Assur (salted Mutar salt)
-Rama: Mutar spread Fat or Tzir (won’t stop blood from giving off)
-Tur: Mutar coat meat during tzli w/ coarse flour; machmir: don’t know what is coarse (Mechaber)
Dough and Meat: What is Assur?
-Pri Chadash only dough assur; Darchai Tshuva: also the meat is assur (Mechaber)
-salted with coat of flour on, like salting in kli she’aino menukav
Poshtida (thick dough) assur cook in; like cooking in pot (Rashi); chumra: blood doesn’t come out;
-Kula: Meat and vegetables can mvatel issur; Unsalted meat-Mechaber:Mutar; Rama:Assur
-Mishb’tzos Zahav: assur even in hefsed Merubah