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Abu Jaiyana
July 11 at 10:16am
EXCLUSIVE DEBATE THREAD (SUNNI VS SHIA DEBATE)

Resolve:
THE COMPANIONS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD S.A.W. CONSIDERED ABU BAKR R.A. TO BE THE
BEST COMPANION AFTER THE PROPHET S.A.W.
Affirmative side: Sunni, Ex-Shia, Hussein Ali (Philippines)

Negative side: Shia, Kooldude Khan (India)
Note: No other forum member is allowed to interrupt or post any comment in this thread until the debate is
over. Unnecessary comment will be deleted as soon as possible with warning against the poster. Failure to
observe this rule after 2 warnings would be a ground for banning from this forum.
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Abu Jaiyana DEBATE RULES:

1. Presentations - 3000 words maximum per debater.
2. Cross Examination 5 questions maximum.
3. Replies to cross Examination 500 words maximum per question.
4. Rebuttals - 3000 words maximum per debater.
5. Conclusions - 700 words maximum per debater.
6. Time limit for posting replies to the opponent's post is 24 hrs.
* Word count would be checked through Microsoft Office program.
8. Violation to any the above rules will render the violator's opponent winner of the debate.
DEBATE FORMAT:
1. Prsentation of the Affirmative side.
2. Prsentation of the Negative side.
3. The negative side would ask 5 questions maximum to the affirmative side.
4. The affirmative side would answer all 5 questions with only 500 words maximum per question.
5. The affirmative side would ask 5 questions maximum to the negative side.
6. The negative side would answer all 5 questions with only 500 words maximum per question.
7. Rebuttal of the affirmative side.

8. Rebuttal of the negative side.
9. Conclusion of the affirmative side.
10. Conclusion of the negative side.
Thank you.
Like Reply 1 July 11 at 10:30am
Hussein Ali PRESENTATION OF THE AFFIRMATIVE SIDE

All praise is due to Allah alone for making His religion perfect and well-preserved for the guidance of those who seek guidance.
Salutations for our beloved Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. his family and his Companions of the Prophet and those who follow them
on goodness until the Last Day.
Peace be unto those who follow the right guidance.
The proposition in this debate is - THE COMPANIONS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD S.A.W. CONSIDERED ABU BAKR
R.A. TO BE THE BEST COMPANION AFTER THE PROPHET S.A.W.
IpurposelyemphasizedthepropositioninthisdebateladiesandgentlemenbecauseIdontwantyoutobemisledbyafallacy
called RED HERRING. It is usually done by a debater by attempting to redirect the argument to another issue that to which the
person doing the redirecting can better respond. Red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to
abandon the original argument.
Our main task in this debate is to know and present the testimonies of the companions of Prophet Mhammad pbuh the two major
sahaba, Abu Bakr and Ali may Allah be pleased with them and their families.
We disregard any statement from the scholars from the Sunni and the Shia side because there is always a sense of partiality from
them from the Sunni and Shia point of view. It is also very disadvantageous for the Shia side if we go on appealing to the
statements of scholars because the number of shia scholars are noticeably extremely few compared to the number of Sunni
scholars.
Having said that, for neutrality sake, we will accept hadiths from Sunni and Shia narrated by the companions of the Prophet pbuh
which are rated as sahih (authentic) by Sunni and Shia scholars respectively. Hadiths which are rated as weak or fabricated
cannot be relied upon therefore cannot be used as evidence by us regardless of quantity.
Please focus on the evidences presented by both sides, and not the exegeses of the debaters.
In this debate, being in the affirmative side, I would argue based on the:
1. TESTIMONIES of the Companions of the Prophet and the
2.HISTORICAL RECORDS,
the Companions of the Prophet pbuh did consider Abu Bakr to be the best Companion (Sahabi) after the Prophet pbuh.
1. Testimony of 'AMR BIN AL-AS r.a, etc.

Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As: The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "WHO IS THE
MOSTBELOVEDPERSONTOYOU?"Hesaid,Aisha."Iasked,"Amongthemen?"Hesaid,"HER FATHER." I said, "Who
then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14.
Narrated Sa'id ibn Zayd: AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (may Allah be
pleased with him). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: I bear witness to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) that I heard
him say: Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) will go to Paradise, ABUBAKR will go to Paradise,
Umar will go to Paradise, Uthman will go to Paradise, Ali will go to Paradise, Talhah will go to Paradise: az-Zubayr ibn alAwwam will go to paradise, Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise, and AbdurRahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise. If I wish, I can
mention the tenth. The People asked: Who is he: So he kept silent. The again asked: Who is he: He replied: He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.
Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40, Number 4632.
2. Testimony of ABU AD-DARDA r.a.

While I was sitting with the Prophet, Abu Bakr came, lifting up one corner of h is garment uncovering h is knee. The Prophet
said, "Your companion has had a quarrel." Abu Bakr greeted (the Prophet ) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! There was something
(i.e. quarrel) between me and the Son of Al-Khattab. I talked to him harshly and then regretted that, and requested him to forgive
me, but he refused. This is why I have come to you." The Prophet said thrice, "O Abu Bakr! May Allah forgive you." In the
meanwhile, 'Umar regretted (his refusal of Abu Bakr's excuse) and went to Abu Bakr's house and asked if Abu Bakr was there.
They replied in the negative. So he came to the Prophet and greeted him, but signs of displeasure appeared on the face of the
Prophet till Abu Bakr pitied ('Umar), so he knelt and said twice, "O Allah's Apostle! By Allah! I was more unjust to him (than he
to me)." The Prophet said, "Allah sent me (as a Prophet) to you (people) but you said (to me), 'You are telling a lie,' while Abu
Bakr said, 'He has said the truth,' and consoled me with himself and his money." He then said twice, "Won't you then give up
harming my companion?" After that nobody harmed Abu Bakr. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 13.
3. Testimony of ANAS BIN MALIK r.a.

The Prophet once climbed the mountain of Uhud with Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman. The mountain shook with them. The
Prophet said (to the mountain), "Be firm, O Uhud! For on you there are no more than a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs. Sahih
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 24
4. Testimony of IBN 'UMAR r.a.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: We used to compare the people as to WHO WAS BETTER during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle. We used
to regard ABU BAKR as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman. Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7.
5. Testimony of IBN 'ABBAS r.a.
While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying (dead) on his bed, a
man behind me rested his elbows on my shoulder and said, "(O 'Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on you. I always hoped
that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar were
(somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah will keep you with
both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin Abi Talib.
.continue to my next post.
Like Reply 7 July 11 at 2:32pm
Hussein Ali 6. Testimony of the SON OF ALI BIN ABI TALIB, MUHAMMAD BIN AL-HANAFIYA from his Father r.a.
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "WHO ARE THE BEST PEOPLE AFTER
ALLAH'S APOSTLE?" He said, "ABU BAKR." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say
"Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20.
Testimonies from ALI BIN ABI TALIB r.a. himself

7. ''The best men in the community after the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) and
Umar (May Allah be pleased with him).''
Reference: Sayyid Murtadha, Kitaab ush Shafee Volume 2, Page 428.
8. Ali r.a also stated: ''Allah has chosen many people from among the Muslims to approve extend the divine mission. Allah and
His Messenger have conferred the highest status on the fisrt two Caliphs, Abu Bakr (may Allah bless his soul) and Umar (May
Allah be pleased with him). I swear by my own life that they occupy the greatest position in the fold of Islam. May Allah have
mercy upon them, for they suffered intensely for the sake of Islam. May Allah compensate them for their sacrifices.
Reference: Ibn ul-Muthim, Sharh Nahj ul Balaghaa (Iraan) Page 488
9.ImamAli(ra)wasasked,WhywasAbuBakrchosenforthecaliphate?He(ra)replied,WesawthatAbuBakrwasthe
most suitable for this affair amongst the people. He was the companion of the Prophet (sws) in the cave and was the second
personeverpraisedbyAllah(swt);andtheProphetmadehimimamwhilehe(sws)wasalive.
Sharah e Nihjal Balagha, Labin Abi Al-Hadid, 1/332
Corroborating Hadiths:
Narrated Abu Bakr: I said to the Prophet while I was in the Cave. "If any of them should look under his feet, he would see us."
He said, "O Abu Bakr! What do you think of two (persons) the third of whom is Allah?" Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57,
Number 5
Another of his virtues is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) appointed him to lead the prayers
in his stead at the end of his life, when he fell sick with his final illness, and he rebuked those who objected to this and said,Tell
AbuBakrtoleadthepeopleinprayer.Narratedbyal-Bukhaari, 3662; Muslim, 2384.
10. ''There is no other person on earth with whose deeds I desire to merge with my deeds, except the man in this coffin (referring
to Umar, May Allah be pleased with him )''
Reference: This has been recorded by many Shia scholars:
Sayyid Murtadha in Kitab ush Shaafee, (Page 171)
Aboo Jafar at-Toosee in Talkhees ash Shafee (Iran: Volume 2, Page 428)
Ibn Babwee, Ibn Abee'l-Hadeed and Sudooq in Ma'ani ul Akhbaar (Iran: Page 117)
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying
(dead) on his bed, a man behind me rested his elbows on my shoulder and said, "(O 'Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on
you. I always hoped that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr
and 'Umar were (somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah will
keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin Abi Talib. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57,
Number 26
Please take note ladies and gentlemen that there are many virtues of Abubakr r.a. listed in many hadiths but I did not use them
here because they are peculiar to Abubakr as a pious person like Ali r.a. and all other Companions of the Prophet. Ali r.a. has also
many virtues related by the Companions which are peculiar or particular for him.
I only quoted here the reports from the Companions including Ali r.a. comparing and testifying the superiority of Abubakr r.a.
over all other Companions.
Take note also that I presented evidences from Shia sources quoting Ali r.a. testifying the superiority of Abubakr over all the
Companions including himself (Ali), and they are being corroborated by hadiths rated as authentic (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih
Muslim).
The refusal of Kooldude Khan, or any Shia for that matter, to accept those evidences is 100 percent normal in this debate BUT it
would NEVER affect the authenticity of those evidences especially that they are corroborating to each other.
.continue to my next post.
Hussein Ali HISTORICAL EVIDENCES AGREED UPON BY SUNNIS AND SHIAS
Sunnis and Shias all agree that Abubakr r.a. was elected as Successor of the Prophet in Saqifah. The vast majority of the Ansar
and the Muhajireen approved of it, and Ali r.a. also gave his pledge of allegiance to Abubakr later. According to Shia sources, Ali
gave allegiance to Abubakr after six months. Whether it is six months or earlier than that, the bottomeline is that he did give
pledge of allegiance to Abu-Bakr r.a.
These facts reminded us of the statement of the Prophet pbuh:
Sahih Muslim Book 020, Number 4476
It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The Caliphate will
remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the earth),
Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40, Number 4629
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of
His Kingdom to anyone He wills.
These facts in history clearly prove the superiority of Abubakr over all the Companions of the Prophet taking into consideration
the above testimonies of many Companions including Ali r.a. listed above from both Sunni and Shia sources.
To my former Shia Brothers and Sisters, take a neutral stand in this debate, look at the evidences presented, be impartial in your
judgment, I will assure you that if you are open-minded and honest to yourselves, you will do what I did leave shiaism sect, and
join the Jamaah of Muslims. Your heart full of hatred against Abubakr and other Sahaba would be freed, and be replaced with
LOVE, and your love and respect to the family of Ali r.a. and Fatima r.a. would not diminish in any shape or form.
I will leave these instructions of the Prophet for us all-
Anas bin Malik said:

IheardtheMessengerofAllah)(say:Mynation will not unite on misguidance, so if you see them differing, follow the
great majority.
Ali r.a. said similar to this effect:

"...The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and BE WITH THE GREAT MAJORITY
OFMUSLIMSbecauseAllahshandofprotectionisonkeepingunity.Youshouldbewareofdivisionbecausetheoneisolated
from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to
thiscourse[ofsectarianism],killhim,eventhoughhemaybeunderthisheadbandofmine.NahjulBalagha,Sermon126.
Narrated by Abdullah- The Prophet said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow
them, and then those who will follow the latter. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 3;
Narrated Abu Said: The Prophet said, "Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's
Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them." Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 22.
Jazakumullaho Khair.
End of my presentation.
Abu Jaiyana Thank you for your presentation Hussein Ali - Word count: 2,380 words.
Kooldude Khan, you have 24 hours to post your negative side presentation.
Please take note that you can post your responses anytime after your opponent's without any go signal from me. We are expecting
and assuming that both of you will be abiding the rules and the format religiously. I will only interfere here if technical problem
arises. If any of you notices any violation committed by your opponent, please PM me.
Thank you.
Kooldude Khan This is my presentation:
Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose
claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot
appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy
exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed.
Let me respond to some of your hadiths before presenting my set of hadiths:
YOUR FIRST HADITH:
Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As: The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "WHO IS THE
MOSTBELOVEDPERSONTOYOU?"Hesaid,Aisha."Iasked,"Amongthemen?"Hesaid,"HERFATHER."Isaid,"Who
then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14.
MY RESPONSE:
This alleged hadith does not tally up to stronger explicit traditions that prove that there existed individuals who Rasulullah (s) had
clearly indicated as superior on account of his love for them. If you will continue to insist on your position that Ayesha and Abu
Bakr were the most beloved in the eyes of Rasulullah (s), then why do you not accept the testimony of Ayesha herself recorded
and declared Sahih by Imam Hakim in Mustadrak, Volume 4 page 261 Tradition 4744:
JamibinUmairnarrates:Iaccompaniedmyauntand approachedAyesha[ra]andaskedher:Whowasthedearestamongthe
peopletoRasulullah?SherepliedFatima.IthenaskedAndamongstmen?SherepliedHerhusband
Imam Nasai records in Khasais Imam Ali, page 89:
Amro bin Ali narrated from Abdulaziz bin al-Khatab from Muhammad bin Ismail bin Raja al-Zubaidi from Abi Ishaq alShaybanifromJamibinUmairwhonarrated:IalongwithmyfatherwenttoAyeshaandaskedher(behindtheveil)aboutAli.
Shereplied:YouareaskingmeaboutamanwhomI know NONE among the men that the Holy Prophet loved most except him
andNONEamongthewomenexcepthiswife.
JamibinUmair:IbnHajarsaid:Seduq(Taqribal-Tahdib, v1 p156). Abu Ishaq al-Shaybani:IbnHajarsaid:Thiqah(TaqribalTahdib, v1 p386).MuhammadbinIsmailbinRaja:IbnHajarsaid:Seduq(Taqribal-Tahdib, v2 p55). Abdulaziz bin al-Khatab:
IbnHajarsaid:Seduq(Taqribal-Tahdib,v1p603).AmrobinAli:IbnHajarsaid:Thiqah(Taqribal-Tahdib, v1 p741).
Moreover the margin writer of the book namely Abu Ishaq al-Huwayni who has been one of the beloved students of Imam
Nasiruddin Albaani al-SalafihasalsodeclaredthechainofthistraditiontobeSahih.
In another tradition recorded by Imam Haythami in Majma al Zawaid, Volume 9 page 24 Tradition 14730:
Ayesha has herself testified that Ali (as) was more dearest to Holy Prophet (s) than Abu Bakr:
Al-NumanbinBashirsaid:AbuBakraskedforpermissiontoenterontheprophet(s),thenheheardAyeshasaying(tothe
prophet):IknewthatAliisdearesttoyouthanmyfather.Shesaidthattwiceorthrice
Imam Abi Bakar al-Haythami said:
al-BazarrecordeditandthenarratorsthenarratorofSahih
Same episode has also been narrated in this manner in Majma al Zawaid, Volume 9 page 136 Tradition 15194:
Al-NumanbinBashirsaid:AbuBakraskedforpermissiontoenterontheprophet(s),whereuponheheardAyeshasloudly
raisedvoice,saying(totheprophet):IknewthatAliandFatimaaredearertoyouthanmeandmyfather.Shesaidthattwiceor
thrice AbuBakrthenaskedforpermissionandenteredheapproachedherandsaid:Odaughter,youshouldnotraiseyour
voicebeforeAllahsmessenger(s).
Imam Abi Bakar al-Haythami said:
AhmadrecordeditandthenarratorsarethenarratorsoftheSahih.
WewouldurgeAyeshasadvocatestotakeagoodlookatthistradition.Youcanhuffandpuffasmuchasyoulike,butwhenwe
haveAyeshasowntestimonytellingusotherwisethensuchclaimsbecomebaseless.Notonly did Ayesha testify to the Prophet
(s) loving Maula Ali (as) and Fatima (sa) more than her and her father, her raised voice evidences how jealous and resentful she
was at this fact, so much so that it caused her behaviour to fall foul of the standards of conduct imposed by Allah (swt) on those
speakingtotheProphet(s).IttookAbuBakrtointerveneandremindhisdaughterofherreligiousobligation:Odaughter,you
shouldnotraiseyourvoicebeforeAllahsmessenger(s).
Abu Bakr may well have been alluding to Surah Hujurat verse 2:
O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to
one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.
The verse sets out the serious consequences for those that raise their voice in the presence of the Prophet (s), Abu Bakr had
practical experience of this, since this verse descended to reprimand his conduct (Sahih Bukhari, Book of Tafseer).
Mulla Mutaqi Hindi records in Kanz ul Ummal, Volume 11 page 334 Tradition 31670:
Arwasaid:IaskedAyesha:WhowasthedearestmantoHolyProphet(s)?Shereplied:AlibinAbiTalib.
Imam Hakim records a Sahih tradition in Mustadrak, Volume 4 page 2581 Tradition 4735:
Buraidasaid:ThedearestwomantoAllahsmessengerwasFatimaandthedearestmanwasAli.
Kooldude Khan Your Second Hadith:
Narrated Sa'id ibn Zayd: AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (may Allah be
pleased with him). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: I bear witness to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) that I heard
him say: Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) will go to Paradise, ABUBAKR will go to Paradise,
Umar will go to Paradise, Uthman will go to Paradise, Ali will go to Paradise, Talhah will go to Paradise: az-Zubayr ibn alAwwam will go to paradise, Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise, and AbdurRahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise. If I wish, I can
mention the tenth. The People asked: Who is he: So he kept silent. The again asked: Who is he: He replied: He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.
Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40, Number 4632.
MY RESPONSE:
One more fabricated hadith which is contradicting historical facts. Abu Bakr and Umar are the same persons who left the dead
body of prophet(s) unburied and went to saqifah to fight for caliphate with Ansars. They both are the same personalities who
threatened to burn down the house of Fatima Zahra(as) and which made Fatima(as) angry so much so that she did not even talked
to them till her death. Imam Ali(as) buried both his wife without even caring to inform these two people. As far as Talha and
Zubayr is concerned, so they both fought with Imam Ali(as) even though they pledged their allegiance on his hands. So they
broketheirallegianceandalsowentagainstthehadithofProphet(s)whereheclearlysaidthat:WhoeverwillfightAliisas if he
fights me andwhoeverfightsmeisasifhefoughtwithAllah.
So now how can those persons who fought with Prophet(s) and Allah indirectly will go to heaven??
YOUR THIRD HADITH:
to regard ABU BAKR as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman. Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7.
MY RESPONSE:
Just look at the narrator of hadith..Its none other than Ibn Umar. The same Ibn Umar who did not gave his pledge of allegiance at
the hands of Imam Ali(as) nor fought alongside him in any of the battles. And he is the same person who later went on to gave
allegiance to a person like Yazid. His enmity to Imam Ali(as) is a historical fact so how does his testimony carry any weight??
Your Fourth Hadith:
"Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20.
My RESPONSE:
Do you yourself believe this hadith to be authentic?? You guys should be ashamed of yourself that you dare to include and quote
such kind of hadiths from your books which is an insult for Imam Ali(as). Just to raise the position of three caliphs, you are
lowering the position of Imam Ali(as). Was Imam Ali(as) just an ordinary person and the rest of all the 3 caliphs were best
personalities after prophet(s)?? Really??
Your Fifth Hadith:
''The best men in the community after the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) and Umar
(May Allah be pleased with him).''

Reference: Sayyid Murtadha, Kitaab ush Shafee Volume 2, Page 428.
My Response:
Have you even read Kitaab ush Shafee?? Remember that Sharif Murtadha wrote the book as a refutation to a book written by a
Sunni scholar Abduljabar al-Mutazili. Sharif Murtada was just quoting Abduljabar al-Mutazili whilst refuting him, so basically
itsastatementthathascomefromAbduljabarandnotfromSharifMurtada.SoPleasereadbooksbeforecommentinganddoing
an exhibition of your ignorance and illiteracy.
Kooldude Khan Your Sixth Hadith:
Ali r.a also stated: ''Allah has chosen many people from among the Muslims to approve extend the divine mission. Allah and His
Messenger have conferred the highest status on the fisrt two Caliphs, Abu Bakr (may Allah bless his soul) and Umar (May Allah
be pleased with him). I swear by my own life that they occupy the greatest position in the fold of Islam. May Allah have mercy
upon them, for they suffered intensely for the sake of Islam. May Allah compensate them for their sacrifices.
Reference: Ibn ul-Muthim, Sharh Nahj ul Balaghaa (Iraan) Page 488
My RESPONSE:
Again...Iwouldask...Haveyoureadtheabovebookfromwhichyouquoted??Idontthinkso...ThesearenotIbnMaythams
wordsratherhehasquotedatraditionfromfamousbookSifeenwrittenby Nasr bin Mazahim. Nevertheless the narration is
chainless hence weak.
Your Seventh Hadith:
ImamAli(ra)wasasked,WhywasAbuBakrchosenforthecaliphate?He(ra)replied,WesawthatAbuBakrwasthemost
suitable for this affair amongst the people. He was the companion of the Prophet (sws) in the cave and was the second person
everpraisedbyAllah(swt);andtheProphetmadehimimamwhilehe(sws)wasalive.
Sharah e Nihjal Balagha, Labin Abi Al-Hadid, 1/332
MY RESPONSE:
Ibn Abi al-Hadeed al-Mutazali was a renowned Mutazali scholar and hence a Hadith recorded by a Mutazali scholar in his book
and that too chainless cannot be advanced to convince Shias.
Your Eighth hadith:
Another of his virtues is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) appointed him to lead the prayers
in his stead at the end of his life, when he fell sick with his final illness, and he rebuked those who objected to this and said,Tell
AbuBakrtoleadthepeopleinprayer.Narratedbyal-Bukhaari, 3662; Muslim, 2384
My Response:
As far as my historical knowledge goes, Prophet(s) commanded Abu Bakr and Umar to join the army of Usamah and insisted so
much so that he even cursed those who will leave the army of Usamah. So how can Prophet(s) ask to lead the prayers and join the
army of Usamah at the same time??
Your Ninth Hadith:
''There is no other person on earth with whose deeds I desire to merge with my deeds, except the man in this coffin (referring to
Umar, May Allah be pleased with him )''
Reference: This has been recorded by many Shia scholars:

My Response:
This tradition has been declared as weak by Sunni scholars, such as Ahmad Shakir, in the footnote of Musnad Ahmad and
Darqutni in al-Elal.
Even in a Shia sources, it has been recorded through a weak chain as the chain includes Muhammad bin Sinan.
Kooldude Khan Now I will present the actual views of Imam Ali(as) and other members of Ahlulbayt(as) regarding the first two
caliphs:
HADITH 1:
SahihMuslimBook019,Number4349whereinCaliphUmaracknowledgedthefollowingtoImamAli(as):
WhentheMessengerofAllah(maypeacebeuponhim)passedaway,AbuBakrsaid:IamthesuccessoroftheMessengerof
Allah(maypeacebeuponhim).Bothofyoucametodemandyoursharesfromtheproperty(leftbehindbytheMessengerof
Allah).(ReferringtoHadhratAbbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to
Ali)demandedashareonbehalfofhiswifefromthepropertyofherfather.AbuBakr(Allahbepleasedwithhim)said:The
Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)hadsaid:Wedonothaveanyheirs;whatweleavebehindis(tobegivenin)
charity.Sobothofyouthoughthimtobealiar,sinful,treacherousanddishonest.AndAllahknowsthathewastrue,virtuous,
well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah
(may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and
dishonest.
Hadith 2:
It is related in the sermon 3 of Nahjul Balagha...I will just quote some parts of it:
Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my
position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me
and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.
It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his
death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the
utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it
was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be
thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.
Hadith 3:
We read in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
NarratedAyesha:(motherofthebelievers)AfterthedeathofAllahsApostleFatimathedaughterofAllahsApostleasked
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritancefromwhatAllahsApostlehadleftoftheFai(i.e.bootygainedwithout
fighting)whichAllahhadgivenhim.AbuBakrsaidtoher,AllahsApostlesaid,Ourpropertywillnotbeinherited,whatever
we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be usedforcharity).Fatima,thedaughterofAllahsApostlegotangryandstopped
speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of
AllahsApostle.
Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

HadhratUmarsaidtoAbuBakrwehaveangeredFatimaletusgotoherandseekherforgiveness.Theybothwenttothehouse
and when they sat before Fatima she turned her face away from them, they said Salaams to her but she did not deem them worthy
enoughtomeritareply.
Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 14 records that:

FatimasaidWhenImeetmyfathertheProphet(s),thenIshallcomplainaboutthebothofyou(AbuBakrandUmar),andsaid
to Abu BakrByAllahIshallcurseyouaftereverySalat.
Al-Imamah wa al-Siyasa, Vol. 1, Page 14
If I wanted, I would have related more hadiths of Ahlulbayt(as) regarding the two caliphs but I need to keep a check on word
count as well.
5 questions for Hussein Ali:
1) Why did Imam Ali(as) considered the first two caliphs as liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest??
2) What is your view point regarding the anger of Fatima Zahra(as) against the two caliphs so much so that she got angry and
stopped speaking to Abu Bakr and Umar, and continued assuming that attitude till she died.
3)WhydidntImamAli(as)allowedthetwocaliphstoparticipateinthefuneralof Fatima Zahra(as)??
4) Why did Imam Ali(as) rejected the offer of Abdul Rahman ibn Auf to follow the footsteps of the first two caliphs during shura
committee.
5) Why did Imam Ali(as) supported Fatima Zahra(as) in the incident of Fadak?? Did he considered Abu Bakr as liar and Why did
he supported Fatima Zahra(as) in her anger?? Did he considered her anger to be on right ground??
Hussein Ali Answer 1. based on the authentic records, Ali r.a. did not consider the two caliphs to be sinful, treacherous, and
dishonest.
Proof:
IBN 'ABBAS r.a.
.Ialways hoped that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr
keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin ABI TALIB. Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('ALI BIN ABI TALIB), "WHO ARE THE BEST PEOPLE AFTER
"Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person. Sahih Bukhari
Ali said: ''The best men in the community after the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr and Umar '' Sayyid Murtadha,
Kitaab ush Shafee Volume 2, Page 428.
Alir.aalsostated:..AllahandHisMessengerhaveconferredthehigheststatusonthefisrttwoCaliphs,AbuBakrandUmar. I
swear by my own life that they occupy the greatest position in the fold of Islam...Ibnul-Muthim, Sharh Nahj ul Balaghaa
(Iraan) Page 488
Whether you accept those narrations or not is IRRELEVANT because your rejection can not affect their reliability those
ahadith are CORROBORATING each other.
If you are referring to the hadith inSahihMuslimBook019,Number4349inwhichitissaidthatSobothofyouthoughthimto
bealiar,sinful,treacherousanddishonest.- that was not the words of Ali and Al Abbas it was the words of Umar r.a.
If fact, Umar was rebuking the two, AliandIAAbbas,fortestifyingthefactthattheProphetsaidthat"Wedonothaveany
heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity" and both Ali and Ibn Abbas attested to it:
Thenhe(Umar)turnedtoAbbasand'Aliandsaid:Iadjureyouboth by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are
sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "We do not have any heirs; what we leave
behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) Ali and Al Abbas said: YES.
Therefore, Al Abbas and Ali thought that Abubakr to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest but they were WRONG about
Abubakr after they both testified that the Prophet did inform the Sahaba that "We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is
(tobegivenin)charity.
Your problem is you did not read the full hadith, read the one earlier than that Sahih Muslim Book 019, Hadith Number
4349http://hadithcollection.com/.../12752-sahih-muslim-book...
Hussein Ali Answer 2. The anger of Fatima r.a. was on Abubakr, not with Umar because Fatima has already died when Umar
became a Caliph - your question is historically WRONG.
With regards to her anger to Abubakr, it was her mistaken understanding about the issue becauseshedidntknowthehadithof
the Prophet s.a.w.
"Wedonothaveanyheirs;whatweleavebehindis(tobegivenin)charity"andAliandAlAbbastestifiedthatthisstatement
of the Prophet is true. Sahih Muslim Book 019, Hadith Number 4349
Also, there are ahadith in Sahih Bukhari corroborating the above hadith, but interestingly, your own best hadith book, AlKafi
says the same:
Al-Kafi of al-Kulaini, vol.1 p. 32
"Narrated Abul-Bukhturi, from al-Sadiq saying: Scholars are the heirs of Prophets, that's because Scholars did not leave behind
for inheritance neither a Dirham nor a Dinar, rather they left for inheritance Ahadith of their sayings"
Al-Kafi, vol.1, p.34
" Al-Qaddaah, narrated Abu Abdullah, the Messenger [saw] said: Verily scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for prophets did
not leave behind (as an inheritance) neither a Dinar nor a Dirham, rather they left knowledge as an inheritance.
So we can understand the feelings of Haz. Fatima she taught that she is deprived of the property of her father, that is why she
got angry. She was not All-knowing, she was a slave of the All-knowing.
Abubakr,Umar,AlAbbas,andAliandotherSahabatestifiedthattheProphetdidntleavehispropertytobeinherited.
Hussein Ali Answer3.WedonthaveauthenticrecordinwhichAliexplainedwhyhedidntallowAbubakrandUmarinthe
funeral of Haz. Fatima all we can do is speculate. May be during that time, Ali was still unaware or unsatisfied with the
decision of Abubakr about the Fadak, or if he already knew about it he became ashamed of it. these are all speculations.
If you have any authentic hadith from Ali, then bring it own. The bottomline is that this question has nothing to do with the topic
of this debate.
Hussein Ali Answer 4.
ThatwasAlispersonaldecision,andhehastherighttodoitbecausehewastheCaliphofthattime.Abubakrdidntcreate a
shura committee, Umar did, so Ali can decide for himself how to run his governance because the situation during his Caliphate is
not the same with of the two Caliphs before him. it has nothing to do with Ali being superior to Abubakr which is the topic of
this debate.
Hussein Ali Answer 5. Initially, yes, Ali did sympathized the anger of Fatima towards Abubakr about the issue of Fadak,
however, based on the hadiths mentioned earlier which is recorded in both sunni and shia sources about the Prophet not leaving
inheritance, that anger was gone, that is why there are many statements of Ali himself exalting the piety and superiority of
Abubakr and Umar such as:
IBN 'ABBAS r.a.
.IalwayshopedthatAllahwillkeepyouwithyourtwocompanions,forIoftenheardAllah'sApostlesaying,"I, Abu Bakr
keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin ABI TALIB. Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('ALI BIN ABI TALIB), "WHO ARE THE BEST PEOPLE AFTER
"Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person. Sahih Bukhari
Ali said: ''The best men in the community after the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr and Umar '' Sayyid Murtadha,
Kitaab ush Shafee Volume 2, Page 428.
Alir.aalsostated:..AllahandHisMessengerhaveconferred the highest status on the fisrt two Caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar. I
swearbymyownlifethattheyoccupythegreatestpositioninthefoldofIslam...Ibnul-Muthim, Sharh Nahj ul Balaghaa
(Iraan) Page 488
Thank you.
Hussein Ali Questions for Kooldude Khan
1. ThetopicofthisdebateisabouttheCompanionscomparisonbetweenAbubakrandAliastowhoissuperiorbetweenthetwo.
IdidntseeinyourpresentationanystatementoftheCompanionscomparingAbubakrandAliexceptabouttheissueabout
whom the Prophet really loved the most which is highly debatable.
Can you provide the testimonies of all Companions which you know who said that Ali is superior to Abubakr?
2. Haz. Fatima and the Prophet s.a.w. got angry with Ali when Ali intended to marry another woman, did that make Ali and evil
person, yes or no?
3. You quoted Nahjul Balagha which says:
position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill.
What did really transpired historically, did Abubakr forced himself to be the Caliph or he was elected by the Ansar in Saqifah?
4. You quoted Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

How does the statement of Ibn Qutaybah relevant to the topic of this debate, was he a Companion of the Prophet?
5. Can you explain how the anger of Fatimah r.a. with Abubkar which had been clarified to be based on her honest mistake due to
being unaware of the hadith of the Prophet s.a.w. makes Ali r.a. superior to Abubakr which is the topic of this debate?
Thank you.
Kooldude Khan Hussein Ali: Firstly...I request you to refrain from quoting the same hadiths which have already been refuted in
my earlier comments. You keep on repeating the same stuff again and again. Repeating the same stuff will not make wrong as
right. For example you are quoting the same hadiths of Imam Ali(as) from books such as Kitaab-ush-Shafee of Sayyid Murtadha,
Sharh Nahjul Balagha of Ibn Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahj ul Balagha of Ibn ul-Muthim (Iran) Page 488 etc. All the hadiths that you
are quoting from these books are either weak and chainless or Wrongly quoted. And as far as the hadith where Imam Ali(as)
considered the first three caliphs as the best persons after Prophet(s) and considered himself just an ordinary person is concerned,
so this is the most idiotic thing that I ever heard in my life. It does not fit properly even with sunni standards, leave alone
impressing a shia by quoting that hadith. Many great sunni scholars have confessed in their respective books that they consider
Imam Ali(as) to be the best person after the first 3 caliphs. So now either they have not read the above hadith that you are quoting
ortheydontconsiderthathadithtobereliable.
Now let me answer your questions:
Your First Question:
ThetopicofthisdebateisabouttheCompanionscomparisonbetweenAbubakrandAliastowhoissuperiorbetween the two. I
didntseeinyourpresentationanystatementoftheCompanionscomparingAbubakrandAliexceptabouttheissueaboutwhom
the Prophet really loved the most which is highly debatable.
Can you provide the testimonies of all Companions which you know who said that Ali is superior to Abubakr?
My Response:
Hadith 1:
Imam Ahmad (d. 241 H) presents one of such proofs:
AbdAllah(b.Masud)narrates:
WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestoftheSahabaafterProphet(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.
Ref:AbuAbdAllahAhmadb.Hanbalal-Shaybani, Fadhail al-ahabah(Beirut:Muasassatal-Risalah; 1403 H) [annotator: Dr.
WasiyullahMuhammadAbbas],vol.2,p.604,#1033
The same hadith is also narrated with another Sahih chain in the same book vol. 2, p. 646, # 1097
These hadiths are further testified by a great sunni scholar in his famous book.
ImamIbnAbdal-Barr (d. 463 H) writes in his famous work that:
Salman, Abu Dharr, al-Miqdad,Khabab,Jabir,AbuSaidal-Khudri, Zayd b. Arqam, Abdullah b. Masud and many others have
narratedthatAlib.AbiTalib,mayAllahbepleasedwithhim,wasthefirsttoacceptIslam,andtheyconsideredhimthemost
superior among the Sahabah after Prophet(s).
Ref:AbuUmarYusufb.AbdAllahb.Muhammadb.Abdal-Barrb.simal-Nimri al-Qurtubi, al-IstiabfiMarifatal-Ashab
(Beirut: Dar al-Jil;1stedition,1412H)[annotator:AliMuhammadal-Bajawi], vol. 3, pp. 1090, # 1855
You said: The issue as to whom Prophet(s) loved the most is highly debatable...Really?? U say this even though I quoted so many
hadiths from sunni books lol...U should learn to accept defeat sportingly man. Hadiths which say that Abu Bakr was the most
beloved person is just found in your own books while the hadiths which say that Imam Ali(as) was the most beloved person to
Prophet(s) is found in both Sunni as well as Shia books....So whose argument is stronger here?? lol
Your Second Question:
Haz. Fatima and the Prophet s.a.w. got angry with Ali when Ali intended to marry another woman, did that make Ali and evil
person, yes or no?
My Response:
It is better for you to first quote me sahih hadiths regarding this incident from shia books and only then I will respond.
Kooldude Khan Your Third Question:
You quoted Nahjul Balagha which says:
position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill.
What did really transpired historically, did Abubakr forced himself to be the Caliph or he was elected by the Ansar in Saqifah?
My Response:
You understand English?? The sermon just relates that Imam Ali(as) was surprised that even though Abu Bakr was aware of the
position of Imam Ali(as) related to the issue of the caliphate but still he agreed to become caliph.
As far as the Ansar choosing Abu Bakr is concerned....So what is your opinion about Saad ibn Ubaadah?? Was he not part of
Ansar?? What about him and his supporters?? What about that group of Ansar who claimed in saqifah that they will not give
allegiance to anyone except Ali(as)??
The fact of the matter is that the caliphate of Abu Bakr was rejected by many great companions.
Al-Yaqubi mentions in Tarikh al-Yaqubi,
"A numbers of muhajirin and the ansars refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, inclined as they were to favor Ali ibn
AbuTalib. Al Abbas bin Abd al-Muttalib, Al-Fadi bin Al-Abbas, Al-Zubayr ibn Al-Awwam, Khalid bin Said, Al Miqdad,
Salman the Persian, Abu Zar Ghaffari, Ammar ibn Yasir, Al-Bara'a, Ubayy bin Ka'b were part of this group". (Tarikh al-Yaqubi
V.2. p. 114.)
And lastly It does not matter whether Abu Bakr was selected by Ansar or the complete Muslim community, because It was Imam
Ali(as) who was choosen as caliph by Prophet(s) on several occasions indirectly and directly, specially on the day of Ghadeer
Khum where Prophet(s) announced the Imamat and caliphate of Imam Ali(as). Both Abu Bakr and Umar pledged their allegiance
and congratulated him on that occasion. But still they broke their pledge after the death of Prophet(s). Not only they broke the
pledge but also disobeyed the last orders of Prophet(s) of joining the army of Usamah.
Your Fourth Question:
You quoted Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

How does the statement of Ibn Qutaybah relevant to the topic of this debate, was he a Companion of the Prophet?
My Response:
Now tell me....Are you not relating non-stop hadiths from Imam Ali(as) where he supposedly said that the first three caliphs are
the best persons after Prophet(s)??
Nowtellme...WhydidntImamAli(as)relatedthesamehadithstoFatima(as)??WhydidhesupportedFatimaZahra(as)onthe
issue of Fadak?? Why did he kept quiet on the anger of Fatima Zahra(as)?? Her anger was such that she was not even willing to
lookatthemorreplytotheirsalamsandasifitwasnotenough,sheevenusetocursethemaftereveryprayer.Soitsstrange
that....Not a single hadith comes to us which says that Imam Ali(as) even tried to explain the so called great position of Abu Bakr
toFatima(as).WhydidheletherremainangrywithAbuBakrtillshedied??AsIfitsnotenough,hedidnotevenallowed Abu
Bakr and Umar to attend the last funeral rites of Fatima Zahra(as). So all this proves beyond doubt that he supported Fatima(as)
on the issue of Fadak and also justified her anger with Abu Bakr. So all those hadiths about the so called greatness of Abu bakr
and Umar from the mouth of Imam Ali(as) fall down flat on the ground.
Your Fifth Question:
Can you explain how the anger of Fatimah r.a. with Abubkar which had been clarified to be based on her honest mistake due to
being unaware of the hadith of the Prophet s.a.w. makes Ali r.a. superior to Abubakr which is the topic of this debate?
My Response:
Her Honest mistake?? Fatima(as) was unaware of the hadith of Prophet(s)?? Really??
Why did Imam Ali(as) kept quiet on her mistake and did not made her aware of the hadith of Prophet(s) or now you will claim
that even Imam Ali(as) was unaware about that hadith??
Itsreallystrangethatthemostknowledgablecompanionamongallthecompanionsofprophet(s)wasunawareaboutsuchan
important hadith while Abu Bakr was fully aware about it.
AnditsevenmorestrangethatbothImamAli(as)andFatimaZahra(as)werenotatallwillingtoacceptthehadithwhichAbu
Bakr quoted from Prophet(s). Infact the case got completely opposite, Fatima(as) got angry with Abu bakr and remained so till
her death. So this itself proves that they considered Abu Bakr as liar and rejected that hadith quoted by Abu Bakr.
As far as the relation of the anger of Fatima Zahra(as) with the ongoing topic of debate is concerned, so please read my response
to your fourth question....WAS SALAM..!!!
Abu Jaiyana I think I need to intervene here because Hussein Ali PM me about Kooldude's response to his question #2. It seems
that Kooldude is not aware of the hadith about Fatima being angry with Ali because Ali wanted to marry another woman, and the
Prophet sustained Fatima's complain. Hussein Ali simply presumed that Kooldude Khan is aware of such hadith and there was no
reference given. I, as the moderator of this debate hereby request Hussein Ali to provide the reference of the hadith he was
referring to and Kooldude Khan is also requested to give his answer. Thank you.
Hussein Ali Thank you Abu Jaiyana. I'm just amazed that Kooldude Khan is not aware of such hadith. Anyway, here are the
references:
Sahih Bukhari Hadith 3729, 5230

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 342
IbnBabvehAlQummis"ElalAl-Sharae",pp.185-186
Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummis"ElalAl-Sharae",p.163
in Majlisi "Bihar" 43/201-202
Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on "How her life with Ali was"
Haqqul Yaqin by Baqir Majlisi, p. 203 204
Thank you.
Kooldude Khan Hussein Ali: Firstly...Have I told u that I'm unaware about that hadith?? Secondly...Why are u providing me
sunni references?? Have I asked for it??
I don't think u read my comment properly...I asked u for a SAHIH shia hadith regarding this incident. All the shia references of
this hadith that you provided in your above comment is waste for me because they are either weak or chainless. If u still insist,
then quote the contents of the hadiths from all the shia books that u quoted above one by one and I will prove my point. As far as
Sunni references regarding this incident is concerned...So sunni books specially Sahih Sittah is filled with such weird stories
about Prophets of Allah and Ahlulbayt(as) that it will make even a crying person laugh. If u insist, then I will relate all such
absurd, weird and rediculous stories from sahih sittah in my next comment. So any incident found in just sunni books does not
contain any value in our eyes. Anyways...Its my office time, so please proceed with your rebuttal part and I will respond to it
once I'm back from the office...Was Salam..!!
Abu Jaiyana Thank you Kooldude Khan for your response. Hussein Ali, you have 21 hours to post your rebuttal. Thank you.
Hussein Ali REBUTTAL
Ladies and gentlemen,
In the beginning of my presentation, I specifically made a very strong emphasis about the Red Herring Fallacy the act of
dragging the discussion in to another topic while pretending to be staying on the subject.
KooldudesargumentiscirclingaroundtheissueaboutFADAKwhichisnotthetopicofthisdebate.ThatFadakissueneedsa
separate debate on its own.
Our topic here is about the Sahaba, WHO DID THEY CONSIDER TO BE THE BEST COMPANION (sahabi) after Prophet
Muhammad s.a.w.
I provided many ahadith in which the Sahaba testified that they consider Abubakr to be the best person after the Prophet s.a.w.
Not only that, I also provided ahadith which Ali r.a. himself clearly confessed that it is indeed Abubarkr who is the best man after
the Prophet s.a.w.
On the other hand, Kooldude did not provide even one statement of any sahabi testifying that Ali is the most superior or the best
person after the Prophet NOT EVEN ONE statement of any sahabi!! SO you can very well see how extremely weak the shia
side here.
Youmayask,butKooldudedidcitethestatementofAbdullahibnMasudinMusnadAhmad,whosaidWeusedtosaythat
theoverallbestoftheSahabaafterProphet(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.vol.2,p.604,#1033,vol.2,p.646,#1097- isntthata
proof???
The answer is a BIG NO!!! Why??? Because it is a BIG LIE!!
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have here with me Musnad Ahmad Volumes 1 3 and the hadiths that Kooldude has given us as
evidencethatAbdullahbinMasudr.a.saidthat:
WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestoftheSahabaafterProphet(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.
THEHADITHDOESNTEXIST!!!
Hadith #1033 of Musnad Ahmad says another thing:
ItwasnarratedthatAlisaidAmmarcameandaskedpermissiontoenterupontheProphetandhesaidLethiminwelcometo
thegoodone,thepurifiedone.
ThereisnoIbnMasudtestifyingthesuperiorityofAlioverall the Sahaba.
Hadith#1097saysItwasnarratedthatAlisaidTheMessengerofAllahsaidIhaverelievedyouofZakahofhorsesandslaves
but bring one of one-tenth,foreveryfortydirhams,onedirham.
Once again ladies and gentlemen, there is no IbnMasudtestifyingthesuperiorityofAlioveralltheSahaba.
The so-calledonlyevidenceofKooldudeKhanfromthestatementofoneSahabiisaBIGLIEbecauseITDOESNTEXIST!!
So what we have here is a very early TKO so to speak because the only evidence that Kooldude Khan has turns out to be
INEXISTENT!!!
Hussein Ali I know that most of the shia debaters are not actually reading our books; they are merely PARROTING the lies and
deceptions of their elders in the internet. Their most common website is Al-Islam.org, shiapen, and others. So I searched for the
reference givenbyKooldudeKhan,andBULLSEYEIfoundit!!
Guess what, the inexistent hadith mentioned by Kooldude from Musnad Ahmad is actually copy pasted from Al-Islam.org as
expected by one of the audience here. What is worse and very embarrassing for Kooldude is that he further DISTORTED the
supposedhadithofIbnMasudallegedlyrecordedby Imam Ahmad.
This is the hadith written in Al-Islam.org:
AbdAllah(b.Ahmadb.Hanbal) my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) Muhammadb.Jafar Shubah Abu Ishaq AbdalRahman b. Yazid Alqamah AbdAllah(b.Masud):
WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestofthepeopleofMadinahwasAlib.AbiTalib.2
The supposed reference of this hadith is in the footnote:
2.AbuAbdAllahAhmadb.Hanbalal-Shaybani, Fadhail al-ahabah(Beirut:Muasassatal-Risalah; 1403 H) [annotator: Dr.
WasiyullahMuhammadAbbas],vol.2,p.604,#1033
Ladies and gentlemen, the footnote which Kooldude Khan had given in his answer to my question #1 right?
Guess what, Kooldude Khan CORRUPTED, CHANGED and DISTORTED the wordings and the meaning of the alleged
testimonyofIbnMasudr.a.
LetscomparewhatiswritteninsourcewhichKooldudeKhancopy-pasted his answer, Al-Islam.org and the corrupted, changed,
and distorted hadith of Kooldude Khan:
Al-Islam.org
Weusedtosay thattheoverallbestofthePEOPLEOFMADINAHwasAlib.AbiTalib.
Kooldude Khan
WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestofTHESAHABAAFTERPROPHET(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.
See for yourself ladies and gentlemen, here is the link https://www.al-islam.org/fr/node/29008
The hadith in Al-Islam.org, aside from being bogus, it requires further evidence because even if we accept that bogus hadith as
authentic for a moment for the sake of argument,KooldudeKhanstillneedstoestablishthatIbnMasudsaidthatstatementwhen
Abubakr and Umar was still alive because the hadith merely compares Ali with the people of Madinah, not to all the Sahaba.
After Abubakr and Umar died, some or many Sahaba may have thought that Ali is the best of the People of Madinah, so this
requires a lot/further evidence.
The distorted hadith of Kooldude Khan from that bogus hadith is very conclusive because it now comparing Ali with all the
Sahaba. The problem is that it is the distorted, changed, corrupted version of that bogus hadith in Al-Islam.org.
IcanprovidenowtheIsnadofKooldudeKhansdistorted,changed,corrupted version:
Kooldude Khan - AbdAllah(b.Ahmadb.Hanbal) my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) Muhammadb.Jafar Shubah Abu
Ishaq Abdal-Rahman b. Yazid Alqamah AbdAllah(b.Masud):
WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestofTHESAHABAAFTERPROPHET(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.
This hadith is rated FABRICATED (MAWDU) by Hussein Ali because Kooldude Khan in the Isnad is a WELL-KNOWN
FABRICATOR of hadiths.
Sofirst,thehadithsisbogus,itdoesntexistinMusnadAhmadinthereferencegiven, and this bogus hadith is further distorted,
changed, and corrupted by Kooldude Khan just to have an alibi not to accept the truth.
Veryfunny,yetsoshamefulexposeagainsttheshiasidehere.Kooldudeneedstoapologizetotheaudienceherebothsunnis and
shias for his debunked toqya it is VERY BADLY EXPOSED!!!
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan after finding out that there are so many testimonies of the Sahaba for the superiority of Abubakr
over all the Sahaba, he fabricated a hadith which is a bogus hadith from their website, and shifted the topic to FADAK issue. His
argument is that Fatima was angry with Abubakr for not giving her supposed inheritance in Fadak.
How does the anger of Fatima r.a. prove that Ali is superior to Abubakr??
Itdoesntmakeanysenseatall.
If the anger of Fatimah r.a. is his criterion,whichIdontknowhowitisalogicalandvalidcriterion,thenwhataboutAlir.a.
Fatimah was also very angry with him when he intended to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl and the Prophet sustained the anger of
FatimahthatswhyAlisplandid not materialize.
InthecaseofAbubakr,FatimahsangertohimisexcusableandtolerablebecauseAbubakrsdecisionisbackedupbyProphets
hadith that the properties left by the Prophet are not inherited but to be given as charity.
Al-Kafi of al-Kulaini, vol.1 p. 32
"Narrated Abul-Bukhturi, from al-Sadiq saying: Scholars are the heirs of Prophets, that's because Scholars did not leave behind
for inheritance neither a Dirham nor a Dinar, rather they left for inheritance Ahadith of their sayings"
Al-Kafi, vol.1, p.34
" Al-Qaddaah, narrated Abu Abdullah, the Messenger [saw] said: Verily scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for prophets did
not leave behind (as an inheritance) neither a Dinar nor a Dirham, rather they left knowledge as an inheritance.
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Hadith Number 4349.

Thenhe(Umar)turnedtoAbbasand'Aliandsaid:IadjureyoubothbyAllahbyWhoseordertheheavensandearthare
sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "We do not have any heirs; what we leave
behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) Ali and Al Abbas said: YES.
Kooldude Khan cant just dismiss this argument because it is backed up by both sunni and shia authentic sources.
Prominent shia scholars believed and propagated that the Quran has suffered tahrif, corruption, after failing to find the name of
Ali in the Quran.
It is not a surprise to us here that Kooldude would reject our evidences from sunni and shia books of hadiths. As I have said
earlier, the refusal of Kooldude Khan or any shia for that matter, to accept these corroborating evidences from sunni and shia
hadithsistotallyIRRELEVANTbecauseitdoesntchangethefactthattheyareratedauthenticbybothgroupsofscholars.
Kooldude was unaware of the hadith that Fatima got angry with Ali and that the Prophet sustained the anger of Fatimah.
Ididntprovidethereferencesofthathadithbecauseitiswell-known in sunni-shia apologetics, but Kooldude skipped my
question#2asifhedidnt knowitorhejustpretendedthathedoesntknowit,soIprovidedthereferencesfromSunniandShia
sources again:
Sahih Bukhari Hadith 3729, 5230
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 342
IbnBabvehAlQummis"ElalAl-Sharae",pp.185-186
Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummis"ElalAl-Sharae",p.163
in Majlisi "Bihar" 43/201-202
Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on "How her life with Ali was"
Haqqul Yaqin by Baqir Majlisi, p. 203 204
Kooldude Khan simply dismissed all those references, they are hadiths from sunni and shia sources CORROBORATING each
other. He made an alibi that there are many hadiths in sihah sitta which are laughable according to him.
However, that is again a RED HERRING fallacy because the issue here is not sihah sitta but Hadiths in Sahih Bukhari which are
corroborated by shia hadiths used by prominent shia scholars Ibn Babaveh Al-QummisandAlMajlisi.Kooldudeneedsto
scrutinize the isnads of those hadiths and he has to explain why both sunni and shia hadiths agree/corrobotate about this fact I
DONTTHINKHECAN!
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan also dismissed the testimonies of the sahaba about the 10 persons who were given the glad tidings
of Paradise because he said that it is a fabricated story
SAYS WHO actually?? Says Kooldude Khan the well-known fabricator of bogus hadiths
very funny right?
The hadiths about the ashra mubashira is very well-known even during the time of the sahaba and their virtues and merits are
well documented.
KooldudekhansaidthatthathadithisfabricatedbecauseAbubakrdidntattendthefuneraloftheProphet ohthatsthe
FABRICATED hadith of Kooldude.
Abubakr and Umar was there in the funeral. In fact, no one was allowed to say that the Prophet had died or else Umar would kill
him.ThattensionwasresolvedwhenAbubakrarrivedthere,kissedtheProphetscorpseandconfirmedthattheProphethad
already died but Allah never dies.

It was a heroic action of Abubakr and Umar to go to the saqifah and prevented the Ansar from electing a caliph as successor to
the Prophet. Had they failed to do so, the Ansar and the Muhajireen could have fought each other about the caliphate once the
Ansar has already elected a caliph from their group because the Muhaireen would not accept it because the Prophet told them that
leadership would remain with the Quraish.
Kooldude Khan is not reading history properly- he is parroting the distortions and deceptions of his elder brothers in AlIslam.org, and make further fabrications if necessary as a sort of TOQYA!!!.
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan also dismissed the Testimony of Ibn Umar r.a.
to regard ABU BAKR as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman.
HesaidthatIbnUmardidntgivebayahtoAli lols! Ali was busy in Kufa while Ibn Umar was in Madinah or Makkah. He did
not involve in the battles because it was a time of Fitnah, Muslims versus Muslims fighting each other. I can go on and on folks
refutingKooldudesemotionalobjection,butIdonthavetobecausehisisbasedonemotiononly,notbasedonlogic.
The bottomline is that Ibn Umar is a Sahabi and he testified the superiority of Abubakr over all the Sahaba. Had Ibn Umar been
biased, he would have said that his father, Umar al Khattab r.a. is the best of all the Sahaba, right? However, he testified for
Abubakr instead of Umar r.a.
The only evidence from the Sahaba which Kooldude has is his FABRICATED HADITH from the BOGUS HADITH from AlIslam.org what a shame!!!
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan also rejected the hadith of the son of his Imam Ali:
"Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.
Now, that he cant attack the narrator or the hadith, he made speculation about the statement of Ali, "I am only an ordinary
person thatdoesntaffecttheauthenticityofthehadithbecauseifMuhammadbinAl-Hanafiya r.a. is truthful then he would
not add something that is somehow degrading to his father.
We can full understand that since Ali was about himself, he was a humble person, and indeed he was, so he just simply said that
he is an ordinary person although all the companions see him to be one ofthebestsahaba.AlistestimonyforAbubakrs
superiority needs no further elaboration.
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan rejected these hadiths:
''The best men in the community after the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) and Umar
(May Allah be pleased with him).''
Messenger have conferred the highest status on the fisrt two Caliphs, Abu Bakr (may Allah bless his soul) and Umar (May Allah
be pleased with him). I swear by my own life that they occupy the greatest position in the fold of Islam. May Allah have mercy
upon them, for they suffered intensely for the sake of Islam. May Allah compensate them for their sacrifices.
He said that some shia scholars wrote books refuting the authors above nonsense!!
Why would we believe in those shia scholars when shia scholars are disagreeing with each other??
The point there is that what have been narrated in those references are corroborating each other, and they are further corroborated
by the hadiths in Bukhari which I quoted above how could this possibly happen?? Is there a theory of great conspiracy here??
Very funny!
Hussein Ali Kooldude Khan also rejected this hadith quoted by Labin Abi Al-Hadid,
ImamAli(ra)wasasked,WhywasAbuBakrchosenforthecaliphate?He(ra)replied,Wesaw that Abu Bakr was the most
Whatsthereason for rejecting? Nothing!!!
Kooldude merely parroted Al-Islam.orgslamealibithattheguywasamutazili.
LetsexaminethestatementofAlithere.
Is it true that Abubakr was the companion of the Prophet in the Cave??
- The answer is YES!
Is it true he was the second person praised by Allah?
- Yes, he was because he is the only companion of the Prophet in the cave.
Is it true that the Prophet made Abubakr as Imam of the Muslims in prayer while the Prophet was still alive?
- The answer is YES. The Prophet even insisted that Abubakr should lead the salah despite of the disapproval and strong appeal
of his wife and other persons.
Therefore, the hadithis100%Sahih!!DespiteKooldudeKhansrejection!
Hussein Ali Lastly, Kooldude Khan again, because of emotion and copy-pasting habit declared this hadith weak:
ThatsnotweakhadithfolksbecauseitiscorroboratedbymanyhadithsincludingthehadithofIbnAbbasinsahihBukhari:
IBN 'ABBAS r.a.
While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying (dead) on his bed, a
man behind me rested his elbows on my shoulder and said, "(O 'Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on you. I always hoped
that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar were
(somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah will keep you with
both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin Abi Talib.
Corroborations from shia hadiths recorded in:
So we have many hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and many shia hadith references corroborating each other VERSUS Kooldude Khan,
the Famous HADITH FABRICATOR of the BOGUS HADITH from A-Islam.org.
Your choice ladies and gentlemen. Should we believe the corroborating evidences from both Sunni and Shia sources, or should
we believe Kooldude Khan who is a famous hadith Fabricator of the bogus hadith in Al-Islam.org??
Jazakumullaho khair.
Abu Jaiyana Thank you Hussein Ali for your rebuttal. #Kooldude, you have 17 hours left to post your rebuttal. Thank you.
Abu Jaiyana 7 hours left for Kooldude to post his rebuttal. 10:20 PM phil.time.
Like Reply July 14 at 4:05pm Edited
Kooldude Khan Hussein Ali: The biggest tragedy is to argue with a fool. Is this what you call rebuttal?? Is this a rebuttal or a
joke?? Now I will give you such a rebuttal that it will expose your ignorance and foolishness in front of the whole world.
Let us analyze your idiotic hadiths and statements one after the other:
FIRST HADITH:
to regard ABU BAKR as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman.
MY RESPONSE:
FIRSTLY....TELL ME....Is this hadith found in shia books?? Then how can you present this hadith as a proof while debating
with a shia like an idiot?? U should only present hadiths which are SAHIH and found in both sunni as well as shia books.
SECONDLY....How can you present such an idiotic hadith from your books which is not even taken seriously and rejected by
many great sunni scholars.
FOR EXAMPLE:
1) Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Àli ibn Thabit ibn Ahmad ibn Mahdi al-Shafiì, commonly known as al-Khatib al-Baghdadi writes in
hisfamouswork:TarikhBaghdadVol.11,Pg.363:
Abu Ghassan Dauri says: I was in the company of the great jurist of his time Ali bin Jaud when discussion ensued about the
tradition of Ibn Umar wherein he narrates and compares the superiority of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman during the lifetime of
Prophet(s). AlibinJaudsaid:Lookatthischildwhoisnotmature,butstillhedivorceshiswifeandsays:Wecomparedthe
peopleagainsteachother.
2) Abu Umar in Istiab says in the biography of Imam Ali(as) that:
If someone publicized the tradition of Ibne Umarwhereinhesays:WeusedtocomparethepeopleastoWHOWASBETTER
duringthelifetimeofAllah'sApostle.WeusedtoregardABUBAKRasthebest,then'Umar,andthen'UthmanWe(Abu
Umar) says: Ibn Moin has strictly denied this statement and issued a stern judgement against it.
WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW?? lol
This proves your ignorance in front of the whole world

Now I will prove your foolishness in front of the whole world:
You said:
IbnUmardidntgivebayahtoAli lols! Ali was busy in Kufa while Ibn Umar was in Madinah or Makkah.
MY RESPONSE:
Ur such a foolish person who have no historical knowledge...History records shows that Sa`d ibn Abi-Waqqas and Àbdullah ibn
Ùmar were particularly sent for and their allegiance was demanded. Sa`d said that when the others owe their allegiance, he too
would do it. He added that even if he did not do the bayah, he would not openly oppose Àli (a.s). When Àbdullah ibn Ùmar
refused to do the bayàh, he was asked to commit that he would not try to disrupt the peace and tranquility of the realm. He
refused to give any such guarantee. At this Malik al-AshtarwasangryandaskedÀlispermissiontocutawayÀbdullahshead.
Àli(a.s)said,Youneednotdoanythingtohim!.Hehadbeenstubbornanduncouth in his childhood and in his adulthood he is
evenworse
It is further narrated that: He came to Ali(as) the following day and said:
IndeedImyourwellwisher.Allpeoplehavenotapprovedyourallegiance,alas,ifyouonlyglanceatyourviewin religion and
leavethemattertotheshuracommitteofmuslims
ImamAli(as)said:Woeuponyou,wasthisallegiancenotrequestedfromme?Didyounotheartheirconductwithme??O
Fool get up, these words have not come with you.
So he went out, thensomeonecametoAli(as)onthethirddayandsaid:IndeedIbnUmarhadgonetowardsMeccaandheis
instigatingpeopleagainstyou.
SO NOW TELL ME U FOOL....How do you expect me to accept the words of a man whose heart was full of malice towards
Imam Ali(as). Such was this fool, that he did not pledged allegiance to Imam Ali(as), but later went ahead and pledged allegiance
to tyrants like Yazid and Abdul Malik ibn Marwan.
SECOND HADITH:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father, "WHO ARE THE BEST PEOPLE AFTER ALLAH'S APOSTLE?" He
said, "ABU BAKR." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?"
He said, "I am only an ordinary person.
MY RESPONSE:
SonowIdontknowwhethertolaugh or feel pity at your understanding of religion. Do you yourself accept such hadith??
If yes, then answer the following questions that If Imam Ali(as) really considered the three caliphs the best persons after
Prophet(s) then:
1)Whydidnthepledgedallegiance to Abu Bakr till 6 months after the death of Prophet(s)??
2) Why did he opposed Abu Bakr when he became caliph which is confessed by Umar in one of his sermons which is recorded in
Sahih Sittah??
3) Why did he sided with Fatima(as) in the case of Fadak and supported her in her anger so much so that he rebuked and scolded
Abu Bakr severely and all these instances are recorded in your own books??
4) Why did he buried Fatima(as) without even caring to inform the first two caliphs??
5) Why did he refused to follow the Sirat-e-Shaykhain during the Shura committe when the proposal was put in front of him??
6) What do u have to say about the sermon of ShiqShiqiyah about the three caliphs which was given during his rulership where
he criticized the three caliphs severely??
Kooldude Khan Third Hadith:
ImamAli(ra)wasasked,WhywasAbuBakrchosenforthecaliphate?He(ra)replied,WesawthatAbuBakrwasthemost
Ref: Ibn Abil Hadid in Sharh Nahjul Balagha.
My Response:
ItsreallyfunnythatyouareforcingahadithnarratedbyaMutazalischolaruponme.Isitnarrated authentically by any shia
scholar in their respective book??
The ANSWER IS a BIG NO then how is it a proof against me?? Lol
YOU SAID:
LetsexaminethestatementofAlithere.
Is it true that Abubakr was the companion of the Prophet in the Cave??
- The answer is YES!
Is it true he was the second person praised by Allah?
- Yes, he was because he is the only companion of the Prophet in the cave.
Is it true that the Prophet made Abubakr as Imam of the Muslims in prayer while the Prophet was still alive?
- The answer is YES. The Prophet even insisted that Abubakr should lead the salah despite of the disapproval and strong appeal
of his wife and other persons.
Therefore,thehadithis100%Sahih!!DespiteKooldudeKhansrejection!
MY RESPONSE:
Do u even know the meaning of SAHIH?? Can u show me its chain of narrators?? How did u judged it SAHIH??
Now u asked some questions above which u answered urself like an idiot...
Now I will answer ur questions:
a) Is it true that Abubakr was the companion of the Prophet in the Cave??
ANSWER: YES
b) Is it true he was the second person praised by Allah?
ANSWER: U FOOL...Where did Allah praised him?? Quote the Ayat and I challenge u to show me the praise which u claimed in
ur stupid answer and it should be an ACTUAL PRAISE not your idiotic interpreted praise.
c) Is it true that the Prophet made Abubakr as Imam of the Muslims in prayer while the Prophet was still alive?
ANSWER: Now tell me....How many times I should answer this question?? Are you blind or dumb that you understand things.
Ur really wasting my time..Now tell me...How the hell can prophet(s) ask Abu Bakr to lead the prayers where he clearly ordered
him to join the army of usamah?? He insisted on that participation so much so that he cursed those who will disobey his
orders...So now tell me how can he ask Abu Bakr to join Usamah as well as lead prayers at the same time??
FOURTH HADITH:
Corroborations from shia hadiths recorded in:
MY RESPONSE:
Again u quoted those shia references?? Are you mentally retarded or dumb?? Have I not already answered regarding these so
called shia references. Why are you repeating the same stuff here??
Is Sharh Nahjul Balagha of Ibn Abil Hadeed a shia work??
As far as Kitab Ush Shaafee reference is concerned....So Sharif Murtadha wrote the book as a refutation to a book written by a
Sunni scholar Abduljabar al-Mutazili. Sharif Murtada was quoting Abduljabar al-Mutaziliwhilstrefutinghim,sobasicallyitsa
statement that has come from Abduljabar and not from Sharif Murtada.
As far as Talkhis ash Shafee reference is concerned.... So Sayyid Murtada Alam al-Huda (Sharif al-Murtaza) wrote his famous
work al-Shafi. It was written as a response to the section on Imamte of Mutazili Qadi Abd al-Jabbarsal- Mughni. This work
summarized by Shaykh Tusi that was titled Talkhis al-Shafi. So again Shaykh Tusi was just quoting Abduljabar al-Mutazili
whilst refuting him,sobasicallyitsastatementthathascomefromAbduljabarandnotfromShaykhTusi.
As far as the reference of Maani-Ul-Akhbaar is concerned, so we have been unable to trace the alleged Hadith therefore it will be
considered as a fabrication until you provide us with the actual scan. This book is available online. So go ahead and try your luck.
YOU SAID:
So we have many hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and many shia hadith references corroborating each other
MY RESPONSE:
WherearethosesocalledMANYSHIAHADITHS??Allthehadithshavebeenrefuted.Soyouareleftwith...NOTHING!!!
DUMBO lol
Kooldude Khan FIFTH HADITH:
Messenger have conferred the highest status on the fisrt two Caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar. I swear by my own life that they
occupy the greatest position in the fold of Islam. May Allah have mercy upon them, for they suffered intensely for the sake of
Islam. May Allah compensate them for their sacrifices.
He said that some shia scholars wrote books refuting the authors above nonsense!!
Why would we believe in those shia scholars when shia scholars are disagreeing with each other??
MY RESPONSE:
UFOOL....Itsachainlesshadith...Uareforcingmetoacceptahadithwhichyouquotedfromshiabookswhichisnotonly
chainless but also declared weak by shia scholars??
U SHOULD BE NAMED DUMBO after this debate lol
U said that shia scholars are disagreeing with each other?? U fool...Are shia scholars disagreeing on this particular hadith?? The
answer is No...So it should be an enough answer for you. As far as disagreement among other issues are concerned, so I can
relate u hundreds and thousands of issues where Sunni scholars disagree among each other so much so that they even abuse and
curse each other. Want to see a trailer?? Lol
SIXTH HADITH:
Kooldude Khan also dismissed the testimonies of the sahaba about the 10 persons who were given the glad tidings of Paradise
because he said that it is a fabricated story
MY RESPONSE:
U FOOL...No sane minded person will accept the above hadith.
Abu Bakr and Umar are the part of hadith..Am I right??
After the death of Prophet(s), the house of Fatima(as) was threatened to burn down. Fadak was snatched away from her. The
above two persons made her angry so much so that she did not talked to them until her death. She use to say that she will
complain her father regarding these two, she also use to invoke Allah against these two after every prayer. She did not even
considered them worthy enough to reply their SALAMS.
Now my question for u: How will these two enter Jannah after angering and hurting Fatima(as) so much??
Did you not read the Prophet(s) hadith that:
We read in Sahih al Bukhari Volume 5 Hadeeth 61 the verdict of Rasulullah (s):
AllahsApostlesaid,Fatimaisapartofme,andhewhomakesherangry,makesmeangry.
ModerndaySunnischolarDrTahiralQadriinAlDurrathulBaydhfeeManaqibFatimaalZahra(as)page60-61:
HadhrathAli[r]narratedthatRasulullah(s)saidtoFatimaVerilyAllahisdispleasedatyourdispleasure, and is pleased at your
pleasure
Al Duratul Baydha fi Manaqib Fatima al-Zahra (sa), Page 60 & 61
The other members of this so called hadith is Talha and Zubayr...Were they not the ones who broke their pledge with Imam
Ali(as) after pledging allegiance to him out of their own will??
WeretheynottheoneswhofoughtwithhimeventhoughProphet(s)madeitclearonmanyoccasionsthatFightingwithAliis
likeFightingwithhim(Prophet(s)andFightingwithhimislikeFightingwithAllah
So now tell me....How can these two enter paradise by fighting with Allah and his Prophet indirectly. Is it possible??
Itispossibleinsunniimaginaryworldonly....Itssuchawasteoftimearguingwithafoollikeuwhokeeponrepeatingthe same
thing again and again.
U quoted couple of hadiths from shia books on the matter of FADAK:
So here is my response:
These particular Hadiths mentions scholars not family. The tradition is stressing that Prophets did not come on the earth to horde
vast amounts of wealth for the scholars that succeeded them, the only riches they left for the Ulema was their inheritance of
knowledge.
The above Hadeeth is clear in its own context that the Prophets did not leave any of their material belongings for the scholars but
whattheyleftforthemwasknowledgebutTHEREISNOhadithinShiatextthatwouldsuggestthatbiologicalchildrenof
prophets are prohibited from inheriting the material possessions of their father and whatever they leave is to be distributed as
Sadqa.Onthecontrary,wefindhadithwhichclearlysuggestthatFatima(as)indeedinheritedhisfathersproperty.
HADITH:
ZuraranarratedthatAbiJaffar(as)said:AliinheritedtheknowledgeofAllahsmessengerandFatimainheritedhisproperty.
1. Al-Kafi, Volume 7 page 86
2. Basair al-Darajat, page 314
3. Tahdib al-Ahkam, Volume 9 page 277
4. Min la Yahdrahu al-Faqih, Volume 4 page 261
5. Manaqib al Abi Talib, Volume 2 page 26
6. Allamah Majlisi declared it Hasan in Mirat al-Uqool, Volume 23 page 32
Kooldude Khan Now Let us come to the last and fun part of the rebuttal:
Usaid:ThehadiththatIquotedaboutthesuperiorityofImamAli(as)wasactuallywordedWeusedtosaythattheoverallbest
ofthePEOPLEOFMADINAHwasAlib.AbiTalib.
MY RESPONSE:
U FOOL...Tell me who is the narrator of this hadith...A SAHABI...
Which place is he talking about....Madina
Is Madina not the place which was filled with Sahabah including Abu Bakr and Umar then why did not Ibn Masud made the first
two caliphs as exception while making this statement. It is a blanket statement which covers everyone who was part of Madina
including the two caliphs.
Usaid:KooldudeKhanstillneedstoestablishthatIbnMasudsaidthatstatementwhenAbubakrandUmarwasstillalive
because the hadith merely compares Ali with the people of Madinah, not to all the Sahaba. After Abubakr and Umar died, some
or many Sahaba may have thought that Ali is the best of the People of Madinah, so this requires a lot/further evidence.
MY RESPONSE:
I need to prove it?? Really?? U fool its u who is assuming that Ibn Masud might have made the above statement when the two
caliphs were dead so its upon you to prove it.
If u still insist regarding my change of words then...Here is a statement of one of your own great scholar.
ImamIbnAbdal-Barr (d. 463 H) writes in his famous work that:
Salman, Abu Dharr, al-Miqdad,Khabab,Jabir,AbuSaidal-KhudriandZaydb.ArqamnarratedthatAlib.AbiTalib,may
Allah be pleased with him, was the first to accept Islam, and they considered him the most superior among the Sahabah.
Ref:AbuUmarYusufb.AbdAllahb.Muhammadb.Abdal-Barrb.simal-Nimri al-Qurtubi, al-IstiabfiMarifatal-Ashab

(Beirut: Dar al-Jil; 1st edition, 1412 H) [annotator:AliMuhammadal-Bajawi], vol. 3, pp. 1090, # 1855
U said regarding the incident where supposedly Imam Ali(as) made Fatima Zahra(as) angry:
Kooldude Khan simply dismissed all those references, they are hadiths from sunni and shia sources CORROBORATING each
other. Kooldude needs to scrutinize the isnads of those hadiths and he has to explain why both sunni and shia hadiths
agree/corrobotate about this fact IDONTTHINKHECAN!
MY RESPONSE:
U FOOL...Hadiths related to this incident found in shia booksAREWEAKandchainless...SOHOWCANUstillsaythatsunni
andshiahadithsagree/corrobotateaboutthisfact.URADUMBOandthebiggestidiotIevertalkedto.Ucannotforwardsuch
kind of hadiths to impress shias which are just found in ur books. U should either bring forward SAHIH hadith regarding this
incident from shia book or KEEP UR MOUTH SHUT.
Abu Jaiyana Thank you Kooldude Khan for your rebuttal.
Like Reply July 14 at 6:58pm
Abu Jaiyana Hussein Ali, you have 23 hours 50 minutes to post your conclusion. 700 words maximum. Kooldude Khan, you
may post your conclusion within 24 hours after the conclusion of Hussein Ali is posted, 700 words maximum as well. Thank you.
Like Reply July 14 at 7:00pm
Hussein Ali CONCLUSION
Ladies and Gentlemen:
WecangoondiscussingwithKooldudeKhanaboutthereliabilityoftheevidencesforAbubakrssuperiorityoverallthe
Companions UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME, but the debate must have an end.
I have made an emphasis in this debate that the audience should watch out about RED HERRING FALLACY because debaters
who become bankrupted in evidence and arguments always try to drag the discussion in to another topic but in a subtle way
hoping that the audience would get confused if not get lost in the original issue.
The proposition:
The Companions Considered Abubakr r.a. to be the Best Companion after the Prophet s.a.w.
I have provided clear and existing records of the ahadith which I provided as proof for the proposition and they are from both
Sunni and Shia hadith books.
My #FURIOUS opponent was not able to present to us, when I asked him in the cross exam, a single statement from the
Companions disproving my evidences for the proposition.
HissupposedhadithsfromMusnadAhmadDOESNTEXISTinMusnadAhmad.Thosewhodonthavethecompletevolumes
of Musnad Ahmad, I can give you a photo of those hadiths mentioned by Kooldude Khan.
I could also give you the screen shot and the link of the supposed hadiths allegedly taken from Musnad Ahmad, which actually
theydontexist,inwhichKooldudeKhandistorted, changed, and corrupted.
InthewordsofmyfriendhereDINOKTORANGTEKSTONGHADITH.IfKooldudeKhanwishedtobecomeaphysician,
he is best suited for COSMETIC SURGERY because he can very well change the original face of anyone.
:p
Imagine folks, the supposed hadith says this:

WeusedtosaythattheoverallbestofthePEOPLEOFMADINAHwasAlib.AbiTalib.
Dr. Kooldude Khan CHANGED it to this one:
We usedtosaythattheoverallbestofTHESAHABAAFTERPROPHET(s)wasAlib.AbiTalib.
IstronglyrecommendtoallofyouwhoarefollowingthisdebatetoseeforyourselfthesourceofDr.KooldudeKhanshadith
butIdontadviceyoutolaughwhenyou found out the lie and deception made by#DR._KOOLDUDE_KHAN. - https://www.alislam.org/fr/node/29008
I also have made an emphasis that it is 100% normal that Kooldude would not accept the ahadith I presented even if they are
corroborating each other because he has an ego to defend. However, his rejection of those hadiths is totally irrelevant to their
reliability.
Kooldude Khan did his best in rejecting those ahadith but he ended up being rattled and inconsistent.
1. He would attack the person of the Sahaba, or
2. He would superimpose his emotion and opinion on the statement of the Sahaba, or
3. He would simply reject the entire hadith because it is not Shia hadith as if shia hadiths are not rejected by the vast majority of
Muslim scholars, or
4. He would reject the hadith even if it is corroborated by shia hadiths, and
5. He would just declare the shia hadiths to be weak if he has no other choice.
Allhisrefutationsaretakenfromshiaapologistsandifyouchecktheirreference,THEYDONTREALLYEXISTliketheone
they give us from Musnad Ahmad.
NO ORIGINAL ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER, almost everything is copy-pasted from here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=996596677087840&id=996560723758102
https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib.../preface
https://www.al-islam.org/.../21-hadith-al-istislam...
https://www.al-islam.org/fr/node/29008
So you can very well understand why #DR_HOTDUDE became very UPSET, very MAD, and very FURIOUS in his rebuttal
His situation is extremely hopeless, the so-calledfolloweroftheAhlulbaytresortedtobadmouthinglike

a #MENOPAUSAL woman having trouble with#HOT_FLUSHES hehehe.
#Kooldude became a #HOTdude in his rebuttal and probably even in his conclusion hehhehe.
Wellwaitfolksinhisrebuttalifhewillexplaintowhydid he #MANIPULATEthestatementofIbnMasud.
:p
May the truthful and open-mindedShiasleaveshiaism.Youcantbuildyourfaithbasedon #LIES and #DECEPTION because

you are only deceiving your own selves.
May Allah protect the Muslims from the LIES and DECEPTION of the Shia
May Allah increase our knowledge, ameen!
Subhanakaallahumma wa bihamdik, Ashadu anna lailaha ila Anta, astagfiruka wa atubu ilayk.
Jazakumullaho Khair.
12. Hadith Al-Tafdhil, Investigating Its Authenticity

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Kooldude Khan Hussein Ali: THIS IS MY CONCLUSION OF THIS DEBATE:
CONCLUSION:
The conclusion of this debate is that my opponent is a dumb and ignorant person who keep repeating things again and again as if
repeating stuff would make wrong as right. He was literally trying to force some of the SO CALLED hadiths found in shia books
upon me and on the readers as well even though I clearly refuted all those hadiths in my first comment itself.
Firstly....I would like to ask my opponent...Do u know the meaning of a debate?? How can you present those hadiths of Ibn Umar
and Muhammad Al-Hanafiyah as proof of superiority of Abu Bakr upon Imam Ali(as) even though you knew fully well that
those hadiths are nowhere to be found in shia books??
Secondly...Have you read my rebuttal?? Your own scholars does not take seriously the so called hadith of Ibn Umar and have
clearly rejected his statement as well his bogus hadith.
So now how can u put forward such a hadith in front of shias which are neither found in shia books nor accepted by many of your
great scholars??
Now all you are left with is the hadith of Muhammad Ibn Hanafiyah...
Now tell me...Why would any shia accept this hadith even though no traces of this hadith are found in any of the shia books
written in past and present??
Not only this, but it is contradicting the historical facts where Imam Ali(as) opposed the so called two caliphs time and again. He
opposed the allegiance of Abu Bakr, He supported Fatima(as) in the incident of Fadak, He supported Fatima(as) in her anger, He
rejected to follow the sunnah of Shaikhayn during the Shura committe and finally he bursted out his anger during his own rule in
the shape of sermon of Shiqshiqiyah and in many other sermons, letters and sayings where he criticised Abu Bakr, Umar and
Uthman severely.
U SAID IN UR CONCLUSION:
HissupposedhadithsfromMusnadAhmadDOESNTEXISTinMusnadAhmad.Thosewhodonthavethecompletevolumes
of Musnad Ahmad, I can give you a photo of those hadiths mentioned by Kooldude Khan.
MY RESPONSE:
Who told u to search that hadith in Musnad Ahmad?? Did I quoted that book??
U DUMBO....I quoted... Kitab al-Fada'il Sahaba: "Virtues of the Companions"
These are two different books U FOOL.....
Idontknowwhypeoplelikeyouareevenborn...DUMBO.
U FURTHER SAID IN YOUR CONCLUSION:
Wellwaitfolksinhisrebuttalifhewillexplaintowhydidhe #MANIPULATEthestatementofIbnMasud.
MY RESPONSE:
I manipulated the words?? Really??
May I know the difference between the two hadiths?? Have the meaning changed??
The meaning still remain the same....The hadith is quoted by a SAHABI and he is claiming that they considered Imam Ali(as) the
bestamongthepeopleofMadinah...NowwholivedinMadinah??Uandyourfamily??WasntMadinahhousetogreat
companions of Prophet(s) including Abu bakr and Umar?? Then why did Abdullah Ibn Masud gave such a blanket statement??
AndmoreoveruhavestillnotreactedtothestatementofoneofyourgreatscholarsImamIbnAbdal-BarrinhisbookAlIstiabfiMarifatal-Ashabwherehementionedthenamesofgreatcompanions who considered Imam Ali(as) the MOST
SUPERIOR among the sahabah....WHY?? lol
Let me quote that statement once again:
ImamIbnAbdal-Barr(d.463H)writesinhisfamousworkAl-Istiabthat:
Salman, Abu Dharr, al-Miqdad,Khabab,Jabir,AbuSaid al-KhudriandZaydb.ArqamnarratedthatAlib.AbiTalib,may
Allah be pleased with him, was the first to accept Islam, and they considered him the most superior among the Sahabah.
Anyways....TO HELL with ur stupidity and foolishness....U were not able to present a SINGLE SAHIH SHIA hadith in the
praise of Abu Bakr...Even the hadiths that you quoted from your own books are either rejected by your own scholars or it is
contradicting historical facts as I proved in my rebuttal...So now the only option left for you is to hang yourself because your
foolishness and ignorance will spread far and wide after this debate....Was Salam..!!!
Like Reply 7 18 hrs Edited
Abu Jaiyana Alhamdulillah! This debate has finally ended.
It is up to the audience/readers to judge which of the two debaters has showed clear evidences and better argument.
I would like to ask an apology to everyone as the moderator of this debate because I did not include in the rules the prohibition
for bad mouthing (ad hominem fallacy) so I cant prohibit any of the two gentleman because I dont want to be accused of being
biased/one-sided to either party.
I was presuming that since this is a religious debate, ad hominem fallacy would be avoided.
Anyway, this is now the time for the audience to share their thoughts about the debate. Please be professional in your comments
by avoiding ad hominem fallacy.
I would also ask Hussein Ali and Kooldude Khan to let the audience express their thoughts/evaluation without intervening them.
Thank you.
Like Reply 17 hrs Edited
Abu Jaiyana This debate will be uploaded here as pdf file so that other members can download it and read it even if offline. This
debate will also be downloadable as pdf file at scribd.com . Thank you.
Like Reply 17 hrs Edited
The debate is now open for comments.
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EXCLUSIVE DEBATE THREAD (SUNNI VS SHIA DEBATE)

Affirmative side: Sunni, Ex-Shia, Hussein Ali (Philippines)

Abu Jaiyana DEBATE RULES:

7. Rebuttal of the affirmative side.

Peace be unto those who follow the right guidance.

1. Testimony of 'AMR BIN AL-AS r.a, etc.

2. Testimony of ABU AD-DARDA r.a.

3. Testimony of ANAS BIN MALIK r.a.

4. Testimony of IBN 'UMAR r.a.

Testimonies from ALI BIN ABI TALIB r.a. himself

Anas bin Malik said:

Ali r.a. said similar to this effect:

(May Allah be pleased with him).''

Reference: This has been recorded by many Shia scholars:

Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 14 records that:

4. You quoted Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

You quoted Ibn Qutaybah in al Imamah wa al Siyasa page 13 records that:

Sahih Bukhari Hadith 3729, 5230

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Hadith Number 4349.

already died but Allah never dies.

This proves your ignorance in front of the whole world

Ref:AbuUmarYusufb.AbdAllahb.Muhammadb.Abdal-Barrb.simal-Nimri al-Qurtubi, al-IstiabfiMarifatal-Ashab

Imagine folks, the supposed hadith says this:

His situation is extremely hopeless, the so-calledfolloweroftheAhlulbaytresortedtobadmouthinglike

May the truthful and open-mindedShiasleaveshiaism.Youcantbuildyourfaithbasedon #LIES and #DECEPTION because

12. Hadith Al-Tafdhil, Investigating Its Authenticity

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