Você está na página 1de 63

1

Investigating the Cost of Unpaid


Internships for the UK Advertising
Industry
A dissertation submitted by

Thomas Rickhuss

In partial fulfilment of the requirements of the award of BA (Hons)


Advertising with Marketing Communications

CMC Academic Group


The Media School
Bournemouth University
2014/2015

Submission date: 18th May 2015

I declare that this dissertation/project is all my own work and the sources of
information and the material I have used (including the internet) have been fully
identified and properly acknowledged. I also declare that the hard copy and
online submission of the dissertation are identical to one another.

Student signature.

A dissertation submitted by

Thomas Rickhuss

Lilac Cottage, 40
Temple, Corsley
Warminster, Wiltshire
BA12 7QP, UK

+44 7731 659 516


tomrickhuss@gmail.com

Investigating the Cost of Unpaid


Internships for the UK Advertising
Industry
A dissertation submitted by

Thomas Rickhuss

In partial fulfilment of the requirements of the award of BA (Hons)


Advertising with Marketing Communications

CMC Academic Group


The Media School
Bournemouth University
2014/2015

Submission date: 18th May 2015


Word count: 7,973

ABSTRACT: Existing literature pertaining to the unpaid internship phenomenon focuses largely
upon the resultant implications for students. As a result, implications for the additional parties
involved - educators and employers - have seldom received research attention. Such
transcends the advertising industry, despite championing the practice of the phenomenon.
This research paper asks, why?. Why do advertising agencies over-index in the practice of a
phenomenon identified as problematic and what does this mean for them specifically? Case
study research of a diverse range of practitioners at a leading UK agency investigates this
question through novel perspectives on the phenomenon. Three central themes emerge as a
result, including: Comparative - whereby practitioners indicated an expectation of anticipatory
justice in light of comparing the difficulties they faced breaking in with those breaking in
today, Thats The Way It Is - whereby practitioners referred to the practice of the phenomenon
as concrete, refuting any responsibility of instigating change, and Filter whereby practitioners
alluded to a deliberate sociocultural filtering mechanism, of which the phenomenon serves an
integral role. The latter theme, combined with the institutionalised ideologies of the former
two, establishes a force that engineers a sense of specialness surrounding the case agency
and its practitioners; a sense of specialness entitled The Club. It is The Club theorem that
concludes this paper, alluding to why the phenomenon perpetuates and the implications that
are likely to emerge as a result. In addition, this paper confirms the inadequacy of leveraging
social capital and experiential learning theses, often used as a rationale for unpaid work, to
justify the phenomenon.

KEYWORDS: Unpaid Internships, Advertising Agencies, Implications, Advertising Industry,


Social Capital, Experiential Learning

5
CONTENTS

Introduction.....Page 6
Literature Review.........Page 8
Internships as positive opportunities for students........Page 8
Internships as problematic for students...................Page 9
Internships as a positive facet of educational experience.....Page 10
Internships as problematic for modern HE degree programs.....Page 11
Internships as relief for contemporary industry.Page 12
Internships as problematic for the UK advertising industry.....Page 13
Methodology.Page 16
Ontology & Epistemology.....Page 16
Design..Page 16
Method...Page 16
Universe.......Page 17
Sample....Page 17
Data Collection & Analysis.......Page 19
Reflection........Page 19
Findings & Analyses.....Page 21
Comparative......Page 21
Thats The Way It Is....................Page 23
Filter........Page 26
Conclusion....Page 31
References....Page 33
Appendices...Page 36
Appendix A - Participant Information Sheet..Page 36
Appendix B - Consent Form......Page 38
Appendix C - Interview Guide...Page 39
Appendix D - Interview Transcript 1 (Bernie)....Page 41
Appendix E - Interview Transcript 2 (Lou).........Page 50

6
INTRODUCTION

It is understood by students, educators and employers alike that internship programs can be
mutually beneficial to all parties involved (Mansfield 2005). For students, internships can serve
as a way of bridging the gap between education and the working world (Kennedy 2013). For
educators, internships can increase the employability of their graduates and bolster program
credibility (Pologeorgis 2012). For employers, internships can offer the opportunity to try out
potential employees without incurring formal employment expenses and legal obligations
(Fink 2013). However, it is important that these three parties also understand that internship
programs can have a particularly adverse effect for all if the benefits resulting from the
internship are not equally distributed.
In recent times, one particular benefit has overtly shifted and caused an imbalance in
this distribution pay. According to Durack (2013), the proliferation of the unpaid internship
phenomenon has resulted from the seismic employment shifts that have affected the UK since
the start of the Great Recession in 2007. Today, the phenomenon exists and self-perpetuates
because: a) its become a last resort for students facing an economy offering fewer paid entrylevel jobs, b) there is continual pressure from educators to secure mandatory experience in
order to successfully graduate from academic programs, and c) employers are making strategic
decisions to save on costs, utilising it as a cost-effective recruitment tool (Durack 2013; Fink
2013).
As a result of its increasing prevalence, the phenomenon has attracted plentiful
government and media attention; querying its implications and igniting nation-wide debate
(Schnitman 2014). Pertinent questions to have surfaced include: Are they legal?, Are they
ethical and moral?, Are they a good opportunity or exploitative?, Do they exacerbate
socioeconomic inequalities? (Pologeorgis 2012). Indeed, these questions have frequently been
directed at employers in the creative industries who have been at the forefront of such
attention due to phenomenologically over-indexing in comparison with other UK industries
(Siebert and Wilson 2013). Unfortunately, such questions have only ever inspired discussion
surrounding concerns, or lack thereof, for students:
Kids that whinge about working for free in an internship context should suck it up and
quit being such pathetic little bitches. Thats my word (B&T MAGAZINE 2013).

7
And, whilst it is important that the phenomenons implications for this party are discussed, it is
equally important that the implications for educators and, indeed, participating employers are
discussed as well. Disappointingly, it is this often-disregarded discussion that could provide an
angle that may otherwise encourage such employers to think twice about the practice.
This inherently absent discussion transcends, not just the media, but the world of
research and is especially true for the advertising industry; of which there is no knowledge in
relation to the phenomenon (Siebert and Wilson 2013). I believe this to be a fundamental
oversight and the gap that this research intends to fulfil. The dominant argument against the
phenomenon residing in both media and academia is rooted in social capital, specifically, the
notion of social exclusion of those who cannot afford to undertake unpaid internships
(Schnitman 2014; Dudson 2015). This should be of huge concern for any advertising agency
built upon the premise of creativity something of which involves bringing unalike things
together (people included) in an effort to produce something fresh and something interesting.
This begs the following question: why are they so prevalent in what should be such an
opposing industry?
The intention of this research paper is to provide an answer to the above question and
is constructed as follows. Section 1 reviews the existing literature surrounding the
phenomenon. Section 2 discusses and rationalises the methodological approach adopted.
Section 3 presents and interrogates the research findings - in the form of three central themes
- against the existing literature and the research aim and questions. The final section concludes
this paper, reflecting upon the work in terms of its potential implications beyond the confines
of current research and suggestions for further fields of study.

8
LITERATURE REVIEW

Internships as positive opportunities for students


Often, the literature attempting to justify the phenomenon is discussed using the rhetoric of
experiential learning - the notion that ideal learning occurs through experience (Burke and
Carton 2013; Schnitman 2014). This idea transcends Experiential Learning Theory (ELT) which
draws on work(s) that give such experience a central role in human learning and development
(Kolb and Kolb 2005). Although not explicitly surfacing at all times, the propositions that
ground ELT typically underpin the aforementioned arguments.
For example, Mansfield (2005, p.35) argues that students can gain invaluable work
experience during unpaid internships. Here, the author appears to offer a positive implication
reasoned by experiential learning; more specifically, proposition five of Kolb and Kolbs (2005,
p.194) ELT - Learning results from synergetic transactions between the person and the
environment. However, it is evident that Mansfield (2005) is alluding to an intangible
synergetic transaction between person (student) and environment (place of which
invaluable work experience is offered). Such transaction is mutually beneficial in that, whilst
students get a taste of the industry, employers get a taste of the candidate (Siebert and
Wilson 2013). However, Mansfield (2005) neglects to discuss the tangible transactions
between student and employer. Critically speaking, if a student is producing work for an
employer during an unpaid internship, then what tangible item is an employer exchanging in
order to maintain the synergetic transaction mandating experiential learning? This notion
questions the use of ELT to justify the phenomenons practice. Burke and Carton (2013, p.125)
support this by arguing,
If there is no remuneration or reciprocal benefit for the rendering of services for
which there is no monetary compensation, then the relationship is exploitative and
unethical.
Such reciprocity underpins another prevalent theme to emerge from literature attempting to
justify the phenomenon - social capital.

9
According to Ghoshal and Nahapiet (1998), Social Capital Theorys (SCT) focus
concerns strong, cross-cutting personal relationships that develop over time and create a
basis for trust, cooperation, and collective action among community members. This is
underpinned by SCTs three constructs: networks, reciprocity and value (Putnam 1996).
Authors who present the arguments for the positive implications of the phenomenon
frequently make reference to such constructs, whether explicitly or not, often presenting the
case that it allows students to expand networking opportunities and thus develop strong,
cross-cutting personal relationships (Schnitman 2014, p.1). As such, these networks are
frequently positioned as reciprocal in nature and of value (Putnam 1996; Ghoshal and
Nahapiet 1998).
However, Siebert and Wilson (2013, p.711) conducted research into the benefits and
pitfalls of unpaid work as an entry route into employment and contend that,
Social capital theory, often used as a rationale for unpaid work, inadequately explains
the practice of unpaid work experience, primarily because it does not take cognisance
of the consequences of this practice for other people working in the sector.
Therefore, like experiential learning, it can be argued that leveraging SCT to justify the
phenomenon is inadequate because such argument neglects to consider the duality of the
process; specifically, the reciprocity of the other party required to enhance such capital employers.

Internships as problematic for students


Paradoxically, literature also leverages SCT to argue against the phenomenon; disputing that
aspirations of generating social capital via such method often depends on pre-existing social
capital. Fink (2013, p.435), for example, criticises the phenomenon as often it [excludes] lessprivileged individuals from occupational opportunities. Indeed, SCT is therefore equally
compelling in problematising the phenomenon. Unpaid internships are proposed to help
provide opportunities for enhancing social capital yet they are able to perpetuate inequality by
excluding those whom lack even the social capital to gain the internship in the first place. This
notion is supported by Siebert and Wilson (2013, p.716),

10
It was not only the lack of economic capital that prevented people from undertaking
work experience, but also their lack of social networks As much as getting a job in
[industry] depended on having the right connections, securing relevant work
experience depended on having these connections as well.
Evidently, ELT and SCT are central to the debate surrounding the implications of the
phenomenon for the student. Both theses have been leveraged in academia to argue for both
the positive and negative implications of the practice for students. What must be
acknowledged however is that, as impressive as the extensive use of the theory is, focus has
remained almost entirely upon the student. Literature has detailed the implications of the
phenomenon for students through the application of such theory but there is a gap in
understanding the subsequent implications for the employer.

Internships as a positive facet of educational experience


Before continuing on to the limited literature surrounding the phenomenons implications for
the employer, it is worth acknowledging the additional party involved in the tri-fold internship
relationship - the educator. Unfortunately, like the employer, literature surrounding the
implications of the phenomenon from a pedagogical standpoint fails to reflect the equality of
such relationship. Educators do however play an equally important role in the phenomenons
surrounding issues because they facilitate the closing of the education-industry gap; often
mandating the application of classroom knowledge to the world of work through its practice
(Lancaster et al. 1990; Hurst and Good 2010).
Again, experiential learning surfaces in the arguments outlining the implications of
the phenomenon for the educator. Paulins (2008 cited by Hurst and Good 2010, p.178) reasons
that,
It is in an educators best interest to assist students with their internship(s) so that
the experiential learning contributes positively to the student's career and academic
development.
Ultimately, this interest exists because positive student experiences increase the likelihood of
sustained relationships between academia and business (Paulins 2008 cited by Hurst and

11
Good 2010, p.178). Additionally, experiential learning helps validate the curriculum by
connecting faculty to current trends, resulting in more employable graduates, increased
program credibility and thus attraction to prospective students (Hurst and Good 2010;
Pologeorgis 2012). Immediate financial benefits emerge from such learning also, in that higher
education (HE) institutions can transfer capital overhead costs to employers (Burke and Carton
2013).
Of course experiential learning can be used to justify the theoretical purpose of
internships from a pedagogical standpoint therefore (Schnitman 2014, p.6). The
aforementioned benefits are not only irrefutable for educators; theyre increasingly relied
upon also. Evidently, this has meant the phenomenon has evolved into a must have part of
contemporary HE culture, affirming the commitment educators must exercise in managing the
benefits for all parties in the tri-fold internship relationship. Poignantly, many academics
would debate such commitment.

Internships as problematic for modern HE degree programs


Keleher (2013, p.626) nods to such benefits in order to juxtapose them with his argument:
While unpaid internships provide substantial benefits, money is not one of
themInterns are ultimately volunteers who agree to work for free. Worse, students
paying tuition for internship credits pay for the privilege of working.
Perlin (2011) supports this in saying, students are often required to pay to receive college
credit for internships, thus participating in pay-to-work scenarios (Perlin 2011 cited by
Burstein 2013, p.317). This identifies a recurring theme in the existing literature - pay-forwork; a key argument against the phenomenon from a pedagogical standpoint. Indeed, this
argument aligns with the previous criticism made of experiential learning and the notion of
asymmetric rather than synergetic tangible transactions.
More importantly, this theme invites a series of problematic implications for HE
institutions. Primarily,

12
If an educational institution sponsors an internship program, for example, by
approving internship sites, requiring internships for a degree program, collecting
tuition and awarding creditthen, arguably, internships are educational programs
(Burke and Carton 2013, p.119).
Such institutions must therefore accept all legal and ethical accountability of their students, as
their lack of financial reward from employers negates any liability (Burke and Carton 2013).
Consequently, the phenomenon imposes a greater level of responsibility upon educators.
However, since every universitys mission is to graduate well-rounded individuals,
experiential learning will continue to be an integral component of HE (Hurst and Good 2010).
This affirms the previous comment regarding the phenomenon evolving into a must have part
of contemporary HE culture and highlights the necessity for further research.

Internships as relief for contemporary industry

As acknowledged throughout this section, limited literature surrounds the implications the
phenomenon introduces for employers. As a result, the most conspicuous factors regarding
the positives of the practice are only ever identified. These factors are curtly stated by authors
such as Mansfield (2005, p.34),
Businesses can benefit from assistance with its marketing efforts without the expense
of a full-time marketing staff person.
Some authors however allude to less transparent matters. Crumbley and Sumners (1998,
p.54), for example, identify that students returning from internships with favourable
impressions become on-campus advertisements for employing companies.
Further comments hint at the aforementioned themes to have emerged from the
broader literature. Once again, social capital surfaces in comments such as the below,

13
The cost of recruiting permanent employees is reduced as [interns] become familiar
with the opportunities the organization has to offer (Crumbley and Sumners 1998,
p.54).
Evidenced in their choice of language, Crumbley and Sumners (1998) suggest that the
heightened social capital of existing employees can be economically advantageous for
organisations as said employees fulfil (become familiar with)

their own job openings

(opportunities). This is arguably more prevalent in society today, 17 years on, where
increased demand has enabled employers to utilise the phenomenon as a cost-effective,
flexible solution to recruitment needs (Siebert and Wilson 2013).
However, although ostensibly advantageous for employers, this structurally
propagates the social exclusion of those whom lack expendable social capital. Thus, in reality,
this economical recruitment tool actually introduces negative implications for the employer,
such as reduced workforce diversity and homogenised output (Siebert and Wilson 2013;
Schnitman 2014).

Internships as problematic for the UK advertising industry


Unfortunately, such negative implications for employers have seldom been explored in
academia, resulting in extremely limited literature in the area. If one introduces the context of
the advertising industry, such is eliminated altogether. This is surprising given the prevalence
of the phenomenon in this particular industry, as discussed previously. Siebert and Wilson
(2013) have come closest to researching this area, with recent exploratory fieldwork on unpaid
work in the creative industries - minus advertising. In addition, their research into the
phenomenon absences the perspectives of those currently working in such industries (Siebert
and Wilson 2013). As a result, they explicitly express a need to reach practitioners directly in
order to inform further enquiry (Siebert and Wilson 2013).
Seminal research that has reached practitioners stays directly clear of the
phenomenon. Alvesson (1994), for example, studied identity and discourse within advertising
agencies and observed a deficiency in the diversity of their workforces which were typically
young, physically fit and well dressed; workforces rich in social capital. Despite constructing
a seemingly utopian office culture, this introduces problematic conditions in which social

14
relations could enable practitioners to advance their interests and reproduce inequality
(Bourdieu 1984). Such problematic conditions result from an imbalance in intra-community
relationships, bonding, and inter-community relationships, bridging, in which bonds are
enhanced and bridges supressed by practitioners (Putnam 1996). Alvessons (1994)
observation can perhaps be elucidated by Siebert and Wilson (2013) who explain that the
social mechanism of sourcing employment in the creative industries may advantage some
individuals, those with pre-existing bonds, and exclude others, those with non-existent
bridges.
These works raise an important question: What role does the phenomenon play in
such social mechanism and, in addition, what implications does it introduce to advertising
agencies as a result?

Underpinned by theories of experiential learning and social capital, this literature


review has established the phenomenological implications currently outlined in academia for
all parties involved in the trifold internship relationship. In doing so, it has identified the
literatures overwhelming focus upon the student and the limited knowledge that the
academic sphere contains regarding the implications for the additional parties involved. As
identified, this is especially true for employers and, in particular, advertising agencies who
should be concerned about the outlined implications, despite their student focus. In an
attempt to contribute knowledge to this absent field of study, I ask: why unpaid internships
are so prevalent in the UK advertising industry despite the documented implications, what
forces are in play maintaining their practice, and how does this and will this impact the
industry? Indeed, what are the underlying reasons for and the implications of the
continuation of unpaid internships in the UK advertising industry? These questions inspired the
research aim and questions (see Figure 1).

15

Aim
- To explore the underlying reasons for - and the implications of the continuation of unpaid internships in the UK advertising
industry.
Research Questions
RQ1 - How aware* of the unpaid internship phenomenon are UK
advertising practitioners?
*Aware meaning in both its simplest form, as in familiar with, but
also in a deeper sense of the word, as in knowledgeable of the
surrounding debates.
RQ2 - What motivates the continuity of unpaid internships and
what are the barriers to change?
RQ3 - What tensions, if any, exist amongst UK advertising
practitioners as a result of unpaid internships and how are these
dealt with if so?
RQ4 - How do UK advertising practitioners think unpaid internships
will, if at all, shape their industry?

Figure 1: Research Aim and Questions (Personal Collection)

16
METHODOLOGY

Ontology & Epistemology


It was evident from the conception of the research aim (Figure 1) that I wanted to explore the
phenomenon through the frame of critical realism which recognises the reality of the natural
order and the events and discourses of the social world (Bryman 2012, p.29). It also
acknowledges that we can understand, and thus change, the social world if we identify the
structures at work through the practical and theoretical work of the social sciences (Bryman
2012). This was true of this research as through practical work, I myself wanted to question the
phenomenons practice and encourage UK advertising practitioners to do the same; potentially
instigating change in the reality of the natural order.

Design
I then considered research design in order to begin such practical work. Eastons (2010)
literature generated interest in case research for me in suggesting that,
A critical realist approach to case research involves developing a research question
that identifies a research phenomenon of interestand asks what causes [it] to happen
(Easton 2010, p.118).
I learnt that such research involves an empirical investigation of a particular
contemporary phenomenon, informed by multiple subjective perspectives which are explored
and subsequently presented (Robson 2002). This was the exact purpose of this paper and
indeed the gap evident in the literature a UK advertising industry perspective on the
phenomenon. Thus, a case study of a leading UK advertising agency was undertaken.

Method
Constructing such case required a qualitative methodology; a way of exploring and reflecting
the social world through the eyes of the different people being studied (Bryman 2012). It is
worth noting, however, that my interest lay in using these different people to make sense of

17
the phenomenon rather than the different people themselves. I selected qualitative
interviews to satisfy this interest, personally engaging with practitioners to better understand
the phenomenon and, indeed, answer my questions surrounding it (Figure 1). These interviews
were semi-structured because a) discussion needed to be guided around the phenomenon as
it was unlikely to dominate a freely-employed conversation, and b) an element of freedom was
required for the participants in order to naturally elicit their perspectives on the phenomenon
(Bryman 2012). Neither of these requirements would have been satisfied with depth or
structured interviews.
Implementation of an interview guide struck such balance (Appendix C). Despite
flexibility with the guide, it was constructed in a particular way proposed by Robson (2002).
The initial topics of Early Advertising and Breaking In aided in relieving any participatory
tension, but were predominantly designed as a way of gleaning the ways in which the
interviewees viewed their social world, helping to contextualise and align discussion for the
following topic (Robson 2002; Bryman 2012). Placements/Internships informed the main body
of the interview with direct questions such as, What do you think of this way of breaking in?,
eliciting discussion around the research questions, and probing questions ensuring they were
fully satisfied (Robson 2002). The final topic, Future Advertising, was implemented to defuse
any interview-induced tension and help elicit final responses alluding to any of the research
questions (Robson 2002).

Universe
The universe consisted of UK advertising agencies currently or recently employing unpaid
interns. This was because I needed to speak to practitioners with first-hand experience of the
phenomenon in order to leverage their perspectives on it.

Sample

Unfortunately, advertising agencies are notoriously inward-focused organisations in that


getting in, let alone conducting case research into them, is extremely difficult. Easton (2010,
p.118) confirms this in saying,

18
The case studys main units of analysis typically [are] organisations and relationships which
are difficult to access and complex in structure.
This was especially true for this research, offering an explanation as to why a pilot study wasnt
adopted. Thankfully, a leading UK advertising agency - referred to as Agency X throughout the
rest of this paper to maintain anonymity - helped facilitate the work in accepting the role of
case. Such investigation was permitted by a gatekeeper at Agency X who aided in contact
with colleagues. As such, participants were predominantly recruited via email through both
opportunistic and snowball sampling methods, fortifying the breadth of perspective on the
phenomenon. It is worth noting here that each participant was given a participant information
sheet outlining the nature of the research (Appendix A) and a consent form to sign, prior to
being interviewed (Appendix B). In total, six UK advertising practitioners, ranging in both
expertise and experience to ensure as diverse angles on the phenomenon as possible,
informed the case (see Figure 2).

Name*

Title

Industry Years

Direct
Intern
Contact

Mike

Marketing and New


Business Consultant

40

Milly

Board Art Director

25

Hannah

Head of Talent
Acquisition

17

Maximilian

Digital Project Director

Bernie

Account Director

Lou

Marketing and New


Business Manager

*pseudonyms given to ensure anonymity of participants and confidentiality in their responses


Figure 2: Advertising Practitioners Interviewed (Personal Collection)

19
Data Collection & Analysis
Due to both financial and access limitations, the research conducted spanned the course of
two days, with three face-to-face interviews held on each day. The majority of interviews were
conducted in private meeting rooms at Agency X, lasting for 49 minutes on average. Resultant
data - interviewees responses - were collected through audio recordings. This data collection
method enabled better focus with regard to listening to participants responses and
encouraging them to articulate their perspectives on the phenomenon (Robson 2002).
The analysis process involved listening back to such responses and annotating them
using Audio Notetaker 2.5 software. This software allowed me to organise the data into
manageable chunks through manually colour coding sections pertaining to the topics outlined
in the discussion guide. I then identified and compared the data through the application of
codes - tags for particular segments of interest (Daymon and Holloway 2002). It should be
noted that this was an iterative process; a new code identified in interview 4, for example,
would inspire cross-referencing with the additional interviews and so on. I then collated the
coded material by organising it into categories, identifying patterns and connections in the
data, and deducing broader, central themes (Daymon and Holloway 2002).

Reflection
Before continuing, it is worth considering the quality of such data in terms of authenticity and
trustworthiness. The most obvious question regarding trustworthiness stems from the
renowned weakness of the outlined research design. According to Easton (2010), it is
frequently proposed that research utilising case studies lack trustworthiness due to limitations
in generalisability. However,
case studies, like experiments, are generalisable to theoretical propositions and not
to populations or universes (Yin 2013, p.21).
This is true of the case study of Agency X which is not suggested to be representative of the
universe but rather host to themes pertaining to the phenomenon that could offer crossapplicability (Yin 2013).

20
With regard to authenticity, the most noteworthy question is the extent to which the
reports of the participants perspectives on the phenomenon are true (Daymon and Holloway
2002). I attempted to reduce any compromise in authenticity through careful data analysis;
classifying my codes, categories and themes not only on my own terms, but on terms defined
by Agency X practitioners themselves (Daymon and Holloway 2002). Despite attempting to
report truthfully, it is worth considering the notion of the rhetoric of interviewing which
questions the assumption that researchers gain full access to the inner thoughts and feelings
of interviewees during interviews (Daymon and Holloway 2002). Ultimately, I reported the
truth to the best of my ability, however, the extent to which interviewees reported the truth
themselves is uncertain.
Overall, the drawbacks in methodology are minor in nature and unlikely to detract
from the overall trustworthiness and authenticity of the data. As such, I believe the findings to
be trustworthy and authentic enough to present in this paper.

21
FINDINGS & ANALYSES

In this section, I discuss my interpretation of approximately six hours worth of data;


interrogated against both the existing, yet limited literature and the research aim and
questions. Due to this sizeable volume, a large number of themes emerged during the analysis.
As such, three of the most prevalent themes - those addressing the research aim and
questions - have been selected for presentation in this paper, whilst the least prevalent - those
least relevant to the research aim and questions - have been omitted. The three central
themes include: Comparative, Thats The Way It Is and Filter.

Comparative
Although unique themes emerged from each interview, one theme transcended all. This
theme - entitled Comparative - involved practitioners referring back to their own personal
difficulties of breaking in to the UK advertising industry (Adland), irrespective of being asked
to comment on the difficulties that others face breaking in today. Interestingly, this theme
was not unique to a particular demographic of practitioner; whether they had two years or 40+
years of industry experience, or were an Art Director or Head of Talent Acquisition, it didnt
matter. However, Lou - Marketing and New Business Manager with 2 years experience - was
the clearest of all the practitioners in expressing her perspective on the phenomenon through
the lens of this theme. For example, when discussing the implications of the phenomenon for
students, Lou said,
I do think people that can't afford to apply because they can't support themselves and
work for free; there are other ways to do it. I moved to London and had to support
myself. Had to work somewhere, regardless of what it was, and was willing to arguably
spend a couple of years proving myself.
(Lou, Marketing and New Business Manager, 2 Industry Years)
In general, Lous comments were extremely passionate, more so than those of her colleagues,
evidenced by not only her choice of the above words but by the tone of her delivery. Perhaps
this can be reasoned by the fact that Lou is indeed the closest practitioner to the phenomenon
in terms of recency in experience. However, as mentioned, this tool was leveraged by all

22
practitioners; using their personal stories as justification for the difficulties of breaking in. For
example, Hannah - Head of Talent Acquisition with 17 years experience describes what she
believes to be fair,
...proper [internships] for people who are trying to break into the business should, at
the very least, have their travel and a nod to some expenses paid. When I did my
[internship] at [agency], I used to have to put my train tickets and sandwich receipts
through to get a bit of cash.
(Hannah, Head of Talent Acquisition, 17 Industry Years)
Here, Hannah expresses her beliefs towards the phenomenon which, in similar fashion to Lou,
are evidently informed by her own personal experiences.
These comments exemplify a potential facet motivating the phenomenons continuity
- a sense of anticipatory justice for practitioners in light of comparing their own experiences
with those of others. Anticipatory justice is an expectation regarding whether one will (or will
not) experience justice in the context of some future event (Rodell and Colquitt 2009, p. 989).
In this instance: one being practitioners, justice being unpaid work as an entry route in
Adland, and some future event being the next generation of practitioners. In other words, I
had to, so its only fair that they have to too!.
Such notion elucidates how this theme answers RQ2 in particular (Figure 1). By
adopting comparative thinking in this way, the practitioners introduce, perhaps inadvertently,
a barrier to change - comparison maintaining anticipatory justice and anticipatory justice
maintaining a barrier. In turn, the phenomenons continuity is motivated; change never
coming to fruition because fairness, a key element of justice, only withholds if circumstances
remain exactly the same for those involved in the phenomenon - past, present and future.
Indeed, it appears that justice, and therefore equality, for current practitioners seems to take
precedence over justice and equality for the next generation of practitioners.
Unfortunately, practitioners predisposed to anticipatory justice contribute to the
perpetuation of social inequality. In ensuring such justice by maintaining a system that they
themselves had to pass through, they are indeed failing to recognise the bigger picture; the
fact that the struggles that they once faced can eliminate opportunity altogether for those
who cannot afford to face the struggle in the first place. Justice may well be served for the

23
fortunate that can accept unpaid work, but such gentrified system also naturally repels the less
fortunate that cannot, thus perpetuating social-economic class divides (Burke and Carton
2013). This confirms the inadequacy of leveraging SCT to justify the phenomenon, as identified
in the literature review. Imposing an expectation of work that does not always offer economic
and social benefits in return erodes reciprocity a key construct of social capital (Siebert and
Wilson 2013).
This notion also confirms the extent to which practitioners were aware of the
phenomenon RQ1 (Figure 1). Generally, awareness sufficed a basic level; apparent through
their conspicuous comparative stories and anticipatory justice ideology. However, surrounding
debates, such as the aforementioned social exclusion of less fortunate individuals and
perpetuation of inequality, were evidently less considered. As such, practitioners were
encouraged to reflect with, what about those who cant afford to apply?, type questions
which served as an opportunity to demonstrate a deeper understanding of the phenomenon.
Unfortunately, responses appeared to lack such understanding as Milly adequately
demonstrates below,
I dont know really because I think people who wanna get in will do it; [theyll] find a
way, yeah. Because thats, you know, thats always been the case.
(Milly, Board Art Director, 25+ Industry Years)
This comment draws attention to a blind spot that multiple practitioners exhibited with
regard to social capital. In accordance with the Comparative theme, theyll find a way
indicates an assumption that, because they themselves had the social capital to fund their
break, others will have so too. Furthermore, Millys, thats always been the case, comment
alludes to the next theme to be discussed Thats The Way It Is.

Thats The Way It Is


The Thats The Way It Is theme pertains to routines of organisational practice or
institutionalisation, in which actions establish themselves as convention and become part of
taken-for-granted patterns in an organisation (Chadwick and Raver 2015). In the context of
this research, it involved practitioners referring to the current phenomenological practice as
being concrete and unchangeable. For example,

24
The fact of the matter is, things are the way they are; they're probably not gonna
change anytime too soon
(Maximilian, Digital Project Director, 7 Industry Years)
Siebert and Wilson (2013) identified a similar trend in their research, in which practitioners
agreed that unpaid work was exploitative but still believed that this is how things are.
What was particularly surprising, however, was the discovery of practitioners actually
leveraging this notion as a tool to refute any responsibility that they personally hold in
instigating change, despite expressing negative attitudes towards the phenomenon. Although
surfacing in multiple interviews, comments made by Maximilian were the most explicit for
evidencing this,
Well, I think they should be paying minimum wage for [internships] at least because
it's tough you know. Most of these agencies are in London. Living in London's
expensive; if you're not from London it's even worse...But, you know, I don't sign all the
cheques at the top of the business so.
(Maximilian, Digital Project Director, 7 Industry Years)
A rigid dichotomy surfaces here - Maximilians evidently negative attitude toward the
phenomenon expressed and his refutation of responsibility to instigate change declared. His, I
dont sign all the cheques, comment clearly makes reference to his physical inability to
transform unpaid internships into paid opportunities. However, considering the previous
remarks, this comment appears to have deeper meaning - a conveniently legitimate excuse to
diffuse any responsibility. Such is distinguishable in further comments made by Maximilian,
They should probably look at doing things like that as well but who am I to tell them
where to start on these things
(Maximilian, Digital Project Director, 7 Industry Years)
This introduces the sociopsychological notion of diffusion of responsibility, in which
individuals assume that others are either responsible for taking action - or have already done
so - when responsibility is not explicitly assigned (Darley and Latan 1968). Indeed, the idea of
diffusing responsibility helps us to understand how this theme answers RQ2 and 3, in
particular (Figure 1). Firstly, such refutation of responsibility to instigate change is an obvious

25
and immediate barrier and one explanation as to how the phenomenons continuity is
motivated RQ2. If practitioners continue to accept the idea that the phenomenon will be (or
is being) addressed by somebody else then, ironically, nobody will address it, nothing with
change and thus perpetuation will occur. Unfortunately, accepting such social mechanisms as
the natural order of things only serves to promote inequality and hinder social mobility
(Siebert and Wilson 2013). Secondly, such refutation may well be a method of alleviating any
tension surrounding the phenomenon RQ3. Indeed, by denying responsibility the potential
blame - and any tension accompanying such blame - for not taking action is diffused for
practitioners.
The notion of Thats The Way It Is being utilised to diffuse tension is supported in the
below comment made by Hannah. It is worth noting that the tension surrounding the
phenomenon was most pervasive in her stutters and pauses whilst making this comment,
rather than the actual words constructing it. As such, these words better illustrate Hannahs
way of dealing with such tension, rather than the tension itself. When pressured to answer for
those who perhaps cannot afford to break in to the industry, Hannah said,
I would hate to think that something like not paying someone their train fair or finding
them a spare room to kip in for 6 weeks would get in the way of that. But, I don't know.
I don't know what you do with them. I think it's a bit fact of life, isn't it? I know it
sounds awful but
(Hannah, Head of Talent Acquisition, 17 Industry Years)
In similar fashion to Maximilian, Hannah appears to diffuse her tension surrounding the
phenomenon through the refutation of responsibility. This is particularly evident in Hannahs,
I think its a bit fact of life, isnt it?, comment which ultimately redirects responsibility for
those who cannot afford to break in onto wider society. Without this responsibility, Hannah
cannot be blamed for the resultant implications, and thus, any tension accompanying such
blame is alleviated.
Furthermore, Hannahs response confirms the limited awareness practitioners have
with regard to the phenomenons surrounding debates, as alluded to previously - RQ1 (Figure
1). This is evidenced explicitly when Hannah says, But, I dont know. I dont know what you do
with them, in which she clearly demonstrates a lack of previous consideration for the social
exclusion of the less fortunate - or them. Thats The Way It Is offers an explanation for this in

26
that such lack of consideration may well be due to institutionalised ideology resulting from
routinised practice - the underpinnings of this theme. Furthermore, the connotations invoked
from Hannahs choice of the word them leads neatly onto the third and final theme, Filter.

Filter
The notion of Filter is that there are particular forces in play that gatekeep Agency X, and
therefore the advertising industry, ensuring that those looking to join - unpaid interns alike pass through a deep-rooted sociocultural filter mechanism. This filter is in constant play and
constructed from smaller, unique components (referred to as codes throughout the
discussion of this theme) which must all be met in order to pass through the filter. Ultimately,
these codes all pertain to the same thing - structural devices employed to ensure and maintain
a certain agency, and indeed, industry calibre.

Obsession

One such code is Obsession - the requirement for outsiders to not only demonstrate their
obsessive hunger to break in to Adland but their obsessive love for Adland also. Hannah
alludes to such hunger in the form of applicant persistence, and love in the form of workplace
infatuation, below,
by the time you've got to that stage, you've whittled down to your final 12, 15, 20
people. You know they're smart; you can see they've got great grades or perspective
grades and where they've been to, you know. It's about going 'are you gonna love it
here?
(Hannah, Head of Talent Acquisition, 17 Industry Years)
Such obsession can be indicated in a multitude of different ways. However, the most
pertinent is through an unpaid internship. In fact, unpaid internships have been integral to this
code throughout the course of its lifetime. Milly, one of the more experienced practitioners,
suggests why,

27
Way back, erm, [agencies] did it because it made people hungry. But then when they
did it, they, they would be rewarded eventually. But I think now, I do think people are
taken advantage of.
(Milly, Board Art Director, 25+ Industry Years)
It therefore appears that agencies once deliberately fabricated this code through the
conception of the phenomenon. Ultimately, they still serve the same role today, however,
agencies intentions appear to have somewhat shifted over time. Nowadays, they are not only
implemented to seek the most obsessive but leveraged to flaunt their level of demand realised through those who are not only willing to work for free but willing to pay for the
privilege of working in the industry (Keleher 2013). This notion is substantiated by the
practitioners of Agency X and is eloquently presented in the below comment from Bernie,
So, you know, there is, there is a huge amount of competition and I guess it's
testament to [Agency X] that, and I guess all the sort of big agencies, that they can be
really fussy about who they want.
(Bernie, Account Director, 5 Industry Years)
The ostensible positive implication that this tactic promotes for agencies, juxtaposed with the
negative implication naturally occurring for students, pay-for-work, confirms the inadequacy
of leveraging ELT to justify the phenomenon identified in the literature review (Burstein 2013).
This is because the transactions introduced by the phenomenon are seemingly asymmetric in
design, favouring advertising agencies over interns. Indeed, it may be argued that the work of
unpaid interns may not benefit agencies directly (and thus not warrant pay) but one could
argue otherwise for the showcase of unpaid interns. Agencies emphasising how in-demand
they are in this way could mean new recruits, new clients and, ultimately, new business.
It is worth noting however that agencies fussiness resulting from such demand, as
exemplified by Bernie, isnt exclusive to unpaid interns. Accepted practitioners alike have to
continue to prove their obsession in a similar fashion,
It's not a given that you would get that opportunity; it's a real, kind of, proving
process.
(Lou, Marketing and New Business Manager, 2 Industry Years)

28
Lous comment describes progressing at Agency X, affirming the notion of the filter being in
constant play to not only attract the most obsessive but maintain the most obsessive also.

Network

The Network code refers to the importance of having contacts in Adland. In similar fashion to
Obsession, it was made clear that this was a necessity for both aspiring and current
practitioners - further evidence for the constant use of the filter. From a practitioner
perspective, Hannah implicitly referenced this by name-dropping senior industry heads that
she was personally acquainted with on numerous occasions. From an unpaid intern
perspective, Mike explicitly describes their necessity below,
But, life's hard and, you know, obviously contacts and things. Networks are key.
(Mike, Marketing and New Business Consultant, 40 Industry Years)
It is clear to see that ones success in the industry is largely indicative of ones network:
the greater the network the greater the chances of success. This notion is supported rigorously
by the work of Siebert and Wilson (2013), as documented in the literature review, who found
that not only did getting a job in the creative industries depend on having the right
connections, but securing unpaid work depended on having such connections as well.
Ultimately, this evidences the industrys pre-requisite of social capital - in which networks are a
key construct (Putnam 1996).
If Network is considered in addition to the previous code, the difficulty of navigating
Adland is unmistakably elevated. You could be the most obsessive aspiring practitioner but if
you dont have a network, you dont pass through the filter and you dont secure, or maintain,
the work. Maximilian supports the fact each code needs to be addressed in order to satisfy
passing through the filter,
People who get in who've just got connections but haven't got anything about them
won't last long.
(Maximilian, Digital Project Director, 7 Industry Years)

29
In the above comment, Maximillian identifies both the Network code, when describing people
whove just got connections, and the following Persona code, when describing people who
havent got anything about them. It can be deduced from his, wont last long, comment
that both codes are a necessity. This aligns discussion for the final, equally mandatory code Persona.

Persona

The final code constructing Filter is Persona - a code referring to the necessity of being a
personality, and further, the right cultural fit in order to succeed in breaking in and
remaining in Adland. Indeed, it is the phenomenon that is frequently leveraged by agencies to
test this fit; a try before you buy approach (Siebert and Wilson 2013). Milly overtly references
this when describing what exactly unpaid interns need to do to, not only survive, but thrive in
Adland,
You wanna stand out, you wanna get yourself noticed...It's about personality as well,
you know, creating a, kind of a persona as well.
(Milly, Board Art Director, 25+ Industry Years)
However, such persona has to align with the host agency. Bernie reinforces this notion
in describing different intra-agency personalities,
I went and did an IPA course, where lots of the grads from other agencies came along,
and you quickly realise that there is a, kind of, type of personality or culture that goes
on with an agency.
(Bernie, Account Director, 5 Industry Years)
This notion is similarly reported by Alvesson (1994) who describes that the habitus of
practitioners, internal dispositions applied according to organisational conditions, is important
in order to fit in with regard to the specific cultural conventions of the agency environment.
In other words, the requisite for both practitioner and agency personas to align for successful
action (Alvesson 1994). Unfortunately, personas that dont align materialise repercussions,

30
Yeah, everyone [does] feel like they're a [Agency X] kinda person. And what is good is
when you get people who aren't a [Agency X] person or are, kind of, a bit toxic to that
culture; they very quickly get weeded out.
(Bernie, Account Director, 5 Industry Years)
Here, Bernie tells of the implications for practitioners with misaligned personas, or culturally
toxic people, at Agency X. Again, it is clear to see how the phenomenon, and its try before
you buy feature in particular, helps to facilitate such action but, equally, how vulnerable
established practitioners are also. Thus, this final comment from Bernie inadvertently provides
a perfect example of Filter in operation; unfolding that those with an incompatible persona are
quickly weeded out, or filtered, from Agency X.

To conclude, the notion of advertising agencies filtering their workforce may not be a
new concept given the predominantly white, male and middle-class workforces that construct
the industry (McLeod et al. 2009). However, what is new is the documented evidence of such,
insight into its inner-workings and, indeed, the discovery of the integral role that the
phenomenon serves in such mechanism. This has transpired through codes: Obsession,
Network and Persona, which help provide an understanding of how the central theme, Filter,
answers RQ4 in particular (Figure 1). As frequently exemplified, these codes are all required in
order to satisfy passing through. Henceforth, it appears that the practitioners believe this
mechanism, of which the phenomenon has proven a fundamental component, to be a positive
force for maintaining the calibre of the agency and indeed the industry - RQ4.

31
CONCLUSION

Undeniably, Filter serves the role of shaping the sociocultural structure of Agency X; structure
that the organisations identity is founded upon. It is evident that the protection, preservation
and perpetuation of Agency Xs filter stems from the routinised, autonomic practice of its
practitioners - the Comparative and Thats The Way It Is ideologies discussed previously. Thus,
it appears the three central themes to have emerged from this research combine to inform a
bigger picture; a force that does more than separate the wheat from the chaff; a force that
continually ensures a sense of specialness surrounding Agency X and indeed those embodying
it The Club.
The Club concludes this paper, consolidating the complexities of the research findings
into a unified theorem that clarifies how the aim of this research has been achieved (Figure 1).
For Agency X, The Club is, analogically speaking, a game of social capital Jenga - of which,
unpaid internships are the forlorn, bottom block of wood. With this block, The Club withholds.
Without it, The Club collapses. Thus, the phenomenons existence is imperative to The Clubs
survival - an underlying reason for its continuation. Unfortunately, survival of The Club
promotes implications less utopian than that of itself; its life host to a parasitic filter
mechanism that gentrifies workforces and homogenises output - resultant implications.
The themes constructing The Club provide specific answers for the research questions
(Figure 1). RQ1 was answered through both Comparative and Thats The Way It Is, whereby
practitioners demonstrated a basic level of phenomenological awareness, failing to
demonstrate a deeper level of understanding because of their assumptions surrounding
others social capital in light of their own and their lack of previous consideration due to
institutionalised ideology. RQ2 was also answered through these themes in that the barriers to
change - and thus the motivation of the phenomenon - included practitioners judicial desire to
maintain experiences similar to those of their own and their refutation of responsibility to
instigate change, stemming again from institutionalised ideology. RQ3 was answered explicitly
by Thats The Way It Is in that such refutation also appeared to diffuse any tension surrounding
the phenomenon by redirecting responsibility, thus negating

blame and accompanying

tension arising from resultant implications. Finally, RQ4 was answered by Filter in that
practitioners believed their deliberate sociocultural filtering mechanism - of which the
phenomenon serves an integral role, as identified through Obsession, Network and Persona

32
codes - to be a positive force for maintaining the calibre of the agency and thus the industry.
Henceforth, these themes inform the first documented insight into the reasons for - and the
implications of the continuation of unpaid internships in the UK advertising industry;
knowledge that previous research has not deduced. Furthermore, in interrogating each of
these themes against the existing literature also, the inadequacy of leveraging both SCT and
ELT to justify unpaid work has also been confirmed, supporting the work of Siebert and Wilson
(2013) in particular.
However, it is important to clarify the most conspicuous limitation of this particular
piece of research. As discussed, the findings relate to a particular group of UK advertising
practitioners at a particular point in time. Thus, the practitioners of Agency X are not
generalisable to the wider universe. Nevertheless, their perspectives have informed themes
pertaining to the phenomenon that are cross-applicable to similar UK, phenomenon-practicing
agencies. Accordingly, it would be useful for further research to explore whether comparable
findings may be discerned in such agencies: The ubiquity of the themes across the diverse
range of practitioners constructing this case indicates that this is likely (McLeod et al. 2009).
Finally, it is also worth noting that my role as researcher, despite integral to this
investigation, introduces a small compromise to the authenticity of these findings. The
research topic was selected due to personal experience of the phenomenon and a desire to
challenge the practice. Regardless of how careful I have been in interpreting and presenting
the data, readers should consider the influences phenomenological familiarity may have had
upon this work (Bryman 2012).
I shall close by acknowledging the fact that I do not blame the practitioners for the
very human thoughts and feelings that they expressed during this research. If anything, I
appreciate their honesty. Without such, we still wouldnt know why unpaid internships are so
prevalent in the UK advertising industry, nor would we know of their resultant implications.

33
REFERENCES

Alvesson, M., 1994. Talking in Organizations: Managing Identity and Impressions in an


Advertising Agency. Organization Studies [online], 15 (4), 535.
B&T MAGAZINE., 2013. Exploitation rife in adland, B&T study finds [online]. bandt.com.au: B&T
MAGAZINE. Available from: http://www.bandt.com.au/uncategorised/exploitation-rife-inadland-b-t-study-finds [Accessed 10 March 2015].
Bourdieu, P., 1984. Distinction. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Bryman, A., 2012. Social research methods. 4th edition. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Burke, D. D. and Carton, R., 2013. The Pedagogical, Legal, and Ethical Implications of Unpaid
Internships. Journal of Legal Studies Education [online], 30 (1), 99-130.
Burstein, R., 2013. Intern Nation: How to Earn Nothing and Learn Little in the Brave New
Economy. LABOUR-LE TRAVAIL [online], (71), 317-319.
Chadwick, I. C. and Raver, J. L., 2015. Motivating Organizations to Learn: Goal Orientation and
Its Influence on Organizational Learning. Journal of Management, 41 (3), 957-986.
Crumbley, D. L. and Sumners, G. E., 1998. How Businesses Profit from Internships. Internal
Auditor [online], 55 (5), 54.
Darley, J. M. and Latan, B., 1968. BYSTANDER INTERVENTION IN EMERGENCIES: DIFFUSION OF
RESPONSIBILITY. Journal of Personality & Social Psychology, 8 (4), 377-383.
Daymon, C. and Holloway, I., 2002. Qualitative research methods in public relations and
marketing communications. London: Routledge.
Dudson, A., 2015. We need to talk about internships [online]. ccskills.org.uk: Creative &
Cultural Skills. Available from: http://ccskills.org.uk/careers/blog/we-need-to-talk-aboutinternships [Accessed 10 May 2015].

34
Durack, K. T., 2013. Sweating Employment: Ethical and Legal Issues with Unpaid Student
Internships. College Composition & Communication [online], 65 (2), 245.
Easton, G., 2010. Critical realism in case study research. Industrial Marketing Management
[online], 39, 118-128.
Fink, E. M., 2013. No Money, Mo' Problems: Why Unpaid Law Firm Internships Are Illegal and
Unethical. University of San Francisco Law Review [online], 47, 435.
Ghoshal, S. and Nahapiet, J., 1998. SOCIAL CAPITAL, INTELLECTUAL CAPITAL, AND THE
ORGANIZATIONAL ADVANTAGE. Academy of Management Review [online], 23 (2), 242-266.
Hurst, J. L. and Good, L. K., 2010. A 20-year evolution of internships: Implications for retail
interns, employers and educators. The International Review of Retail, Distribution and
Consumer Research [online], 20 (1), 175-186.
Keleher, C., 2013. The Perils of Unpaid Internships. Illinois Bar Journal [online], 101 (12), 626.
Kennedy, J., 2013. THE THIN LINE BETWEEN EXPERIENCE & EXPLOITATION. B&T Magazine
[online], 63 (2790), 24-26.
Kolb, A. Y. and Kolb, D. A., 2005. Learning Styles and Learning Spaces: Enhancing Experiential
Learning in Higher Education. Academy of Management Learning & Education [online], 4 (2),
193-212.
Lancaster, K.M. and Katz, H.E. and Cho, J., 1990. Advertising Faculty Describes Theory v.
Practice Debate. Journalism Educator [online], 45 (1), 9-21.
Lofland, J. and Lofland, L., 1995. Analysing Social Settings: A Guide to Qualitative Observation
and Analysis. 3rd edition. Belmont: Wadsworth.
Mansfield, E., 2005. Try an Intern. O&P Business News [online], 14 (22), 34-35.
McLeod, C. and O'Donohoe, S. and Townley, B., 2009. The elephant in the room? Class and
creative careers in British advertising agencies. Human Relations [online], 62 (7), 1011-1039.

35
Perlin, R., 2011. Intern nation: how to earn nothing and learn little in the brave new economy.
New York: Verso.
Pologeorgis, N., 2012. The Impact Unpaid Internships Have On The Labor Market [online].
investopedia.com: INVESTOPEDIA. Available from:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/12/impact-of-unpaid-internships.asp
[Accessed 03 March 2015].
Putnam, R. D., 1996. The Strange Disappearance of Civic America. AMERICAN PROSPECT, (24),
34-49.
Robson, C., 2002. Real world research: a resource for social scientists and practitionerresearchers. 2nd edition. Oxford: Blackwell.
Rodell, J. B. and Colquitt, J. A., 2009. Looking ahead in times of uncertainty: The role of
anticipatory justice in an organizational change context. Journal of Applied Psychology, 94 (4),
989-1002.
Schnitman, M.L., 2014. The Price of Unpaid Internships [online]. Thesis (Honors). Wesleyan
University.
Siebert, S. and Wilson, F., 2013. All work and no pay: consequences of unpaid work in the
creative industries. WORK EMPLOYMENT AND SOCIETY [online], 27 (4), 711-721.
Yin, R.K., 2013. Case study research: design and methods. 5th edition. California:
SAGE.

36
APPENDICES

Appendix A - Participant Information Sheet


Introduction
You are being invited to participate in a research project as part of a research paper undertaken by
Tom Rickhuss in partial completion of an undergraduate degree in Advertising with Marketing
Communications (BA Hons) at Bournemouth University. Before you decide whether to participate or
not, it is important for you to understand why the research is being done and what it will involve.
Please read the following information carefully and raise any queries you may have before agreeing to
participate.

Research Project
Exploring the different routes or ways of breaking in to UK Adland.

Project Purpose
The purpose of this project is to gain insight into, and perspectives on, the different routes or ways of
breaking in to the UK advertising industry from a range of advertising professionals currently
employed at a UK advertising agency.

Why me?
You have been invited to participate in this research due to being an advertising professional currently
employed at a UK advertising agency.

Do I have to take part?


Participation is voluntary and participants are free to withdraw consent, discontinue participation in
the research and withdraw their data, up until the point of transcription (see below), for any reason
and without penalty.

What would I have to do?


Participation will involve being interviewed by Tom Rickhuss on a one-to-one basis. The interview will
last for approximately 1hr and will be conducted on either the 26th or 27th March (2015) at the
agency in an available meeting room (TBC). The interview will be semi-structured, involving
discussion around a series of pre-defined topics pertinent to the research project. From time to time,

37
the participant may be asked to elaborate on any of their comments made during the interview.
Additionally, the interviews will be audio recorded for transcription and data collection purposes.

What are the possible disadvantages and risks of taking part?


There are no immediate disadvantages or risks as result of taking part other than the consumption of
a participants time.

What are the possible benefits of taking part?


There are no tangible rewards for taking part. However, participatory benefits include supporting and
facilitating an important, industry-relevant research project that may generate findings with realworld application to the participants employing industry.

Would my details be kept confidential?


The participants name and the name of their employing organisation will remain confidential
throughout the research process and neither themselves, nor the organisation, will be identifiable in
the paper or the conference proceeding the research (see below). This will be ensured through the use
of pseudonyms for both parties. In the unlikely event that contact with a participant should need to be
made by the University, the participants contact details will be supplied on a non-disclosure
agreement basis to the University.

What will happen to the results?


Results will be published in an academic paper and presented at an academic conference. Comments
made during the interview by participants may feature as quotations in either or both. Participants
may obtain a copy of this paper and the conference presentation deck if they so wish. Requests should
be made after the 20th May, 2015.

Contact for further information


For further information about the research, a participant may contact Tom Rickhuss via email on
i7958162@bournemouth.ac.uk
In the unlikely event that a participant deemed making a complaint necessary, they may contact Dr
Richard Scullion via email on RScullion@bournemouth.ac.uk

Finally
Participants may keep this participant information sheet and may request a copy of their signed
consent form.
Thank you for taking the time to read this information.

38
Appendix B - Consent Form

Full title of project:


Exploring the different routes or ways of breaking in to UK Adland.

Name and contact details of researcher:


Tom Rickhuss | i7958162@bournemouth.ac.uk
Name and contact details of supervisor:
Richard Scullion | RScullion@bournemouth.ac.uk

Please Initial Here

I confirm that I have read and understood the participant information sheet
for the above research project and have had the opportunity to ask
questions.
I understand that my participation is voluntary and that I am free to
withdraw my consent, discontinue my participation in this research and
withdraw my data, up until the point of transcription, for any reason and
without penalty. In addition, should I not wish to answer any particular
question(s), I am free to decline.
I give permission for members of the research team to have access to my
anonymised responses. I understand that my name and employing
organisation will remain confidential throughout the research process, and
that neither I nor the organisation will be identifiable in the report /
conference proceeding this research.
I agree to take part in the above research project.

_____________
Name

____________________
Email

______________
Tel

________
Date

____________
Signature

39
Appendix C - Interview Guide
So well start with a nice, simple question

Who are you?


- name
- age
- gender
- position inc. role
- years employed

Early Advertising
Perhaps the hardest question of whole interview

Discovery
Inspiration to pursue
How did you go about pursuing?
- education / experience
- how long?
- was it challenging?
- did you enjoy it? aspects that you did/didnt like?
- was it worthwhile?

Breaking In
Leads neatly on to

Getting your break


- how?
- what or who do you have to thank?
Then where did you go?
- break + impact on this opportunity
Arriving at this agency
Working here
Culture
- pros / cons
In comparison to other places youve worked?
People
- above & below
Those at very bottom
How do people get their break today?
Comparison to yours

Placements / Internships
Placements, and in particular unpaid internships, are a common route in...

What do you think about this way of breaking in?


- so its a good opportunity / concern / both?
- ethics?

40
Why are they rife in Adland?
What do agencies see in them?
- lack of pay = economic advantages but are there any other advantages involving lack of pay?
What do students see in them?
Fit in agencies
Agency-intern relationship
Integration within the team
- colleagues
How do you / others generally feel towards them?
Of value?
- no, then devalue others work?
Do they pose as a threat?
- if so deliberate?
Those that dont apply (perhaps for financial reasons), how do you feel about them?
- is it a good thing they cant apply or are agencies are missing a trick?
Improved / weakened advertising
What would this mean for the agencies?
What would this mean for the industry?

Future Advertising
Ok so final section and little bit of fortune-telling

Best way of breaking in at the moment


Need for change or stay as is?
A better way?
if yes, what would be a better way?
System in 5 or even 10 years
What will this mean for those joining / looking to join the industry?
in terms of attractiveness
Impact on industry
What 3 bits of advice would you give yourself if you were breaking in to Adland today?

After the interview


How did the interview go? (interviewee talkative, cooperative, nervous etc.?)

Setting of interview? (busy / quiet, interruptions etc.?)

Any other feelings about the interview? (new avenues of interest?)

(Bryman 2011, p.78)

41
Appendix D - Interview Transcript 1 (Bernie)
Key
I = Interviewer
B = Bernie
I: Hello! Wheres my pen gone?
B: Hello.
I: So, er, easiest question of the whole interview
B: Yes.
I: The first one is who are you?
B: My name is [Bernie]. I am twenty-nine years old. Do you wanna know how long Ive worked at [Agency X]?
I: Er yeah, if you could say what your position is; what your role is
B: I'm an Account Director at [Agency X], working predominantly across the [client] and [client], and very soon to be
moving onto [client].
I: Nice! Looking forward to that?
B: Er, yes I am actually. It's one of those accounts that's got this weird reputation of being, like, a bit of a killer and,
obviously, predominantly female as well but 'cause I've spent about two and a half years on the [client] I'm actually
looking forward to a change.
I: Bit of a mix-up.
B: Yeah.
I: Cool. So, how long have you been at [Agency X]?
B: So I've been here five and a half years.
I: And how long have you worked in the industry?
B: Five and a half years.
I: So straight here?
B: Straight here.
I: Ok, cool. So perhaps the hardest question of the whole interview and thats discovery of advertising can you
remember? Cast your mind back...
B: It was purely through lots and lots of research. I think I kinda had more marketing as an area that I thought I
might go into purely because I think you gravitate to what you know and probably what your elder siblings do or
your Dad does. So my Dad comes from a sales and marketing background; my brother had gone into a similar thing.
I knew I didn't want to specifically go into that but I did start by doing a lot of research. There was a really good site
called prospects.ac.uk, which was really, which I found really helpful. I can't remember whether it was Uni or a
careers advisor or a friend or whoever put me in contact with that but, what I really like is it, kind of, broke down
every job by like: what qualifications you might need, what you can likely earn, what sort of skills you'll need to
succeed in that role and the, kind of, day to day tasks of it. And, I kind of then - through that - stumbled across
advertising and then, kind of, was really intrigued by it. And the more I then, sort of, read about advertising and I
was looking up various agencies, then starting to find out about, like, um industry press. And you read a sorta lotta
case studies of people who have gone into it and just, kind of, immediately kinda had a connection with what they
were tryin' get out of a job and what I wanted out of a job, and just the more I looked into it I was like, This is
awesome. This sounds really good for me.

42
I: So how old were you at this time?
B: So, I was probably, I was probably 22. Something like that - 21, 22.
I: Had you done your degree or?
B: So I had done my degree at this point. I had, I did some work experience in sports marketing in my second year of
University over the summer. I'd gone and, sort of, done a 6, 6 week placement with, just through like erm friends
and contacts, I managed to get a place at [agency] which is like a sports marketing place. And I went and did that,
which was great but wasn't exactly what I wanted to do erm. And then had done the typical student thing where I
hadn't really thought about, too much about, I was just enjoying Uni; I did History and Politics which meant I, kind
of, had done that not because I wanted to be a Historian or a Politician but it was one of those analytical degrees
that obviously would hopefully open me up to whatever I wanted to do. And then, off the back of Uni, I kind of had
started to think about it. I went off and travelled for a while as most students tend to go and do, and kinda gave it a
lot more thought. I had applied for a few graduate schemes prior to going erm travelling but unsuccessfully. When I
got back from travelling, that's when I really hit the ground running and, like, trying to get into the industry.
I: Nice! So, where was your first taste of the industry?
B: My first proper taste was. So [agency] was my first, kind of, experience of - other than like when you do GCSE
work experience or whatever, yeah the mandatory stuff - was my first experience of kind of a marketing-type role in
a London office, if you like. And I really liked that but wasn't, although I loved sports and I loved marketing; well, I
say loved sports. Loved sports wouldn't say I was in love with marketing as it were... But kind of thought it was an
area that I wanted to go, of interest. Like, doing that role I remember thinking, kind of, this is cool but I'm not sure
this is completely right. And then, when I'd kind of identified advertising as the area of my. Very luckily through my
Dad, he, he works for [company] and through some of his contacts managed to put me in contact with the erm CEO
of [agency]. So I went and had a half an hour chat.
I: Thats a decent contact to have!
B: Yeah, a decent contact to have, right? So erm. More just as a, a chat about the industry. More about, like, here's
my CV; can you give me some advice on what I should be putting in it? Obviously, you know, you've always got the
thing in the back of your mind of like, I wanna impress this guy enough in half an hour that he wanted to give, hire
me on the spot. But obviously it's never gonna happen but, you know. He was a really nice guy.
I: Were you intimidated going in?
B: I probably, I think, because when I was first. I came into it so, yes I'd read about it but like you can't know or
quite understand the whole industry and who the big players are and not, and I knew [agency] was obviously a big
agency with amazing clients on its reel and, you know, the CEO is obviously at the top but. Probably now, having
been in the industry, if I had to go and see [so and so] I'd be a bit more like, 'Oooh shit', whereas I was just like a
slightly clueless 23 year old like, 'Hi! Here's my CV. What do you think?
I: And how did that go?
B: It went alright! He, weirdly he. 'Cause I did a lotta sort of maths and science subjects at A-level, and he said the
typical thing about an Account Man is actually they're, kind of, creative and try and be organised but aren't always
that good at finance side of stuff. So he said I would be putting the fact that you got an A in A-level maths near the
top of your CV and making a big play about, kind of, that side of things, 'cause that's a real rarity and hard thing to
find. But he said the classic, you know: try and keep it short, try and keep it punchy, and don't bang on with lots of
pages basically. So that was really good.
I: Where did you go from there? Did he offer you anything in the end or?
B: So no, he didn't, other than. I think he sort of said, 'look if you wanna send me back your CV I'll try and have a
look over it', or something like that. So, then erm. Do you want me to tell you about how I got into the industry?
I: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
B: So, then what happened er, I was like right. When I got back from travelling I was like right, I'm really gonna go
for this, this is where I wanna be. So I pretty much started with the likes of Campaign, new business rankings and.
Oh no, sorry, I should. I should start at the beginning. Obviously like, the easiest way and probably the most natural
way to get into advertising would be the agency graduate schemes. The problem that I found with those in that: a)

43
I'd, kind of, probably wasn't as organised at Uni as I wanted to be, b) because I wanted to go off travelling and all
those things.
I: Not flexible in terms of dates and stuff...
B: Yeah, not very flexible in terms of dates. Plus, also, then by the time I'd got back, you're often. Because you're,
sort of, applying alongside the more organised students, if you like, you're almost applying a year in advance of
when you'd want to start so. When I got back I was almost like, right I'm ready to hit the ground running now and I
wanna get into the industry. I didn't wanna like, have to apply for loads of graduate schemes, wait 2 months for
them to close, then go for, you know, 3 or 4 rounds of interviews, then them to go, 'sorry you haven't got it' or 'yes
you have got it and you can start in 9 months time', kind of thing. So I, sort of, circumnavigated that route and
decided that I'd go for a more direct route which was pretty much; sat on my computer day in, day out in, you
know, my house with my parents.
I: Where abouts was this?
B: They were up, in like, the country-side in Bedfordshire. So started researching, like, biggest agencies in London,
who's, like, doing the best in terms of new business, so. Obviously, just trying to look at who's gonna be super busy
and probably not got enough hands on deck. And then, pretty much, just was firing-off emails to, you know. The
time consuming thing was, rather than make it a generic email, you try and personalise it or tailor it and fire-off
emails. Often, like when you go to an agency's website, it'll have like a new business contact or a reception contact
but you almost want it to go straight to the source. So in a lot of cases I was phoning up, and this is what I did at
[Agency X], pretty much phoned up reception, pretended to sound really important; that I needed to speak to the
Head of Account Management or at least try and get their details out of the receptionist. So there was a bit of
charm offensive going on. So I managed, it was probably [so and so] or someone else, but managed to charm the
details of [so and so] - who was the Head of Account Management at the time - got her email address and things. Or
usually if they like, you know, drop a name but won't give you a contact; it's not rocket-science to go well, the
format is first name dot surname at [Agency X] dot com so, or whatever. So, managed to get in contact with [so and
so] and basically said, 'congratulations on all this new business, you must be really really busy', you know, 'I'm
basically looking to get into the industry and just learn'. 'I'd love to come and help you', you know, 'completely free
and ready to start now'. And, she fired me back a couple of, like. Thing with this is it can be disheartening, 'cause
like 80% of what you're sending out you just don't hear from. You know, as you can see from here, everyone's like
super busy. You know, I'm probably guilty of it. If I get those sort of emails you don't always respond or like, you
mean to but you just don't get round to it for few days. So a lot of it you're not hearing back from. But [so and so];
she literally lived by her Blackberry, was straight back on emails saying, 'Oh, what sort of experience are you looking
for?', or something like that. Or, you know, 'When would you be looking to do it?'. And I wrote back a, 'Argh, thanks
for coming back to me', you know, 'I can start whenever', basically. And then didn't hear anything from her. So I,
kind of, had left it a. Well I think I'd then fired another email but, again, didn't hear back. And the next thing I get is
like, the following weekend, a call from - I think it was like a Saturday afternoon - I got a call from HR. They said, 'Oh
hi, is that [Bernie]?', and I was like, 'Yeah', and they were like, 'It's so and so from HR at [Agency X]. When you come
in on Monday, can you remember to bring your passport?'. And I was like, 'Sorry what?'. And they were like, 'Yeah,
you know, you're starting for 2 weeks work experience on Monday', and was like, 'What? No! Like, nobody told
me!'. But obviously you don't then pass that opportunity up, so it was an absolute kick bollocks scramble to get up
to. I had some friends in Harrow, in London, so they let me stay with them.
I: So, just couch-surfing then?
B: Just basically. Well, luckily they had a spare room actually. But, initially came in for 2 weeks work experience. And
[so and so], our now Head of Account Management, was an Account Manager at the time and was assigned to look
after me with his Account Director - a lovely woman called [so and so]. And, I guess, in that time. It's partly good
luck in terms of: they were obviously really busy, they were looking to recruit, kind of, AEs 'cause essentially we're
cheap labour and willing and wanted to get stuck in. And, also, I just tried to make a real impact and so, you know.
It's work experience so they're not asking you to do the most fun tasks; a lot of them are like competitor reviews
and things like that but what I tried to do is just really put, go above and beyond. So rather than just do a
competitor review, you know, go into real detail or find out how I can like add extra value. There was a lot of, you
know, agency socials and nights out which I just tried to, yeah, get involved or. I was really lucky 'cause I sat next to
this, kinda, really cool creative team called [so and so], who were I guess like the [so and sos] of their day. And they
kind of took me under their wing and whenever they were going out - and they were pretty much going to
everything - 'oh [Bernie], come along and get stuck in'. So I think it was, you know, they've always just been looking
for people who are social, they feel that they can go for a beer with and all of that, so. I just kinda got stuck in. That
two weeks turned into, 'can you stay for another two weeks?'.
I: Really?

44
B: Yeah, so I stayed; I did 4 weeks of work experience and then, l obviously I wasn't stupid and didn't think it was
gonna last forever so I was lining up work experience at other agencies in London. So I had [agency] lined up and
someone else, and then [so and so], who - probably know who he was was Head of New Business at the time and
he had an assistant, [so and so] who I think had to, she had to have an extended leave period for something but she
was the New Business manager. And so I then filled in for her for just like helping, answering the phones, just doing
what I could for a few weeks. And again, just then over that sort of six / seven week period, just tried to engrain
myself into the agency. And then, off the back of that, it was just good timing that the two grads for that year were
starting and I'd sort of said, 'look, I'd love to stay but I've got other things lined up and obviously I can't work for free
forever', and so then I had a few interviews with, official interviews with [so and so] and what not and then they,
kind of, basically took me on as one of the grads - which was great!
I: Nice! Even though theyd already been fulfilled?
B: So yeah. So I guess they were, there was the two grads who were the official grads who kinda came through this
system and were identified but I mean, in terms of the training and the same pay and the opportunities, they were
very fair and gave me all the same - which was great!
I: So how did you find those How long was it in total about seven weeks?
B: About seven weeks, yeah.
I: How did you find that? Was it tough or was it ok; especially not being paid and stuff?
B: Not getting paid wasn't ideal. I mean they were sort of paying my travel and I think I was getting like 50 a week,
or something like that. So, yeah, barely anything. Erm. So, it certainly wasn't sustainable for a long period of time.
And, in fact, the job I did in my second year - the work experience - at the same time, they were sorta courting me
and offered me a full-time position but I kinda knew, deep-down, that that's what I didn't wanna do; I didn't wanna
do that.
I: Did you use that to your advantage here? Did you say that they were in touch?
B: I sort of. In terms of just trying to move things along, I let them know that I had work experience lined up at other
places and. I mean, because - I felt saying something like, you know, 'I'm gonna go to [agency] for work experience',
or something like that - because it's a more direct competitor and, in the industry, it's kind of probably more keenly
felt by the agency than if I'd sort of said, 'Oh well I'm going into, sort of, a different marketing area with a different
agency'. So, I don't, I don't think I did use that as well as I could of but I certainly, from going from no pay to just
getting paid and. And also, 'cause I knew that I was being taken on at the same rate as the, or salary, as the grads, I
didn't wanna - I was probably too nice about it - but I didn't really wanna seem greedy and ask for more or anything
like that.
I: Nice! So, [Agency X] ever since?
B: [Agency X] ever since!
I: Thats five years
B: Five and a, yeah. Five years, yeah. Just over -five and a half.
I: So what's it like working here? What's the culture like at [Agency X]?
B: It's awesome! It's really, really cool. What I like about it is. Obviously it's really hard when you haven't been
anywhere else; you become attached to it but, you get the sense that. Well, in fact, I went and did, I went and did
an IPA course where lots of the grads from other agencies came along, and you quickly realise that there is a, kind
of, type of personality or culture that goes on with an agency. And, you know, some people obviously are really nice
but you also. I think, traditionally, or certainly there's probably a stereotype outside of advertising that a lot of
people who are in it are a bunch of wankers, basically. Whereas, what's lovely about [Agency X] is, everyone's just
really, really nice. Everyone's really bright. Everyone's really collaborative. Everyone just wants to work together and
have fun, basically; which is all you can really ask for from a job. And there's never. What I really like about working
at [Agency X], which I'm sure you get from any agency really because it's the, the structure of the, the industry but,
that you're not all going in there to do the same job, it's kind of. You know, there's Planners, there's Creatives,
there's Account Men, there's Producers, there's, you know, there's Studio, there's TV; so there's like, all of these
different people and personalities and expertise all in one place really. That's the big thing for me, I like the variety
of it.

45
I: But everyone still feels like theyre a [Agency X] kinda person?!
B: Yeah, everyone still feels like they're a [Agency X] kinda person. And what is good is when you get people who
aren't a [Agency X] person or are, kind of, a bit toxic to that culture; they very quickly get weeded out.
I: Do they?
B: Yeah.
I: Naturally? Or their choice, or?
B: A bit of both. I'd say that if they're really toxic to the culture then management will just get rid of them. But, I
think naturally the agency. If people are like that they just don't really give 'em the time of day so then that person
doesn't really wanna be part of it.
I: So you mentioned people: so, can you talk a bit about people ranging throughout [Agency X]? So how people get
on at the top, all the way through to the bottom; differences in personalities, and stuff like that?
B: Yeah, certainly. I mean, from a management point of view, I've always found. Well I think, generally, as a culture;
what I really like about it is, everyone is on one floor and everyone is open plan which I think makes everyone from
the CEO right through to the newest Account Exec very, very approachable. So like, it's not like management are
hidden behind a big closed door unlike a lot of, a few agencies. So I think - having been here for as long as I have - I
have a good relationship with senior management and, you know, how we've worked on various accounts and
projects they, sort of, all know who I am and they're, you know, they're fun to sort of have a bit of banter with, you
know. [CEO] is very, very good at his job. I think [so and so] is brilliant. I mean, [so and so] has always, kind of, been
my, you know; I've worked for him for 5 and a half years so he's basically my mentor, so obviously I'm a big fan of
his and I think he's, you know, for the seniority he is, in terms of Head of Account Management, he's actually, kind
of, a really, every day, slightly scruffy but kind of fun person. And I think having someone like that as the head of the
department that you can actually relate to is really key.
I: In terms of the culture, how does it manifest itself? So, how do people know how to behave in the, kind of,
[Agency X] way? Or who disseminates the culture, do you think?
B: I dunno, I think there's a. There's always been a, you know. [So and so]; I wouldn't say is like, you know, dictating
what the culture should be but he's always had a firm belief that, you know, 'work hard and be nice to people' - is
kind of the core values of [Agency X] and I think everyone kind of embodies that. And then I think - from a, kind of,
social culture point of view - it's often the bigger client teams, so like your [client] or your [client] or your whoever,
who probably get the opportunity to, kind of, go out and party but I think stuff like. Even last night, for example, we
had an all-agency, sorry not an all-agency, an Account Management meeting but then rather than that just finish
and everyone go home, it's like 'right well, let's go to the pub and have a few drinks and'. It's just one of those that,
that night then roles into a 1 in the morning, you know. Everyone having a few pints and going out and having a
good time, so. It's a very. I don't think it's a, 'youre at [Agency X], you need to behave in this way', I think it's
actually a really relaxed, natural, kind of, everyone socialising and getting on.
I: Cool, nice. So, what about the guys at the very bottom, erm, coming through the ranks? How do they get in in the
first place? Is it similar to how you did it or?
B: Erm, no. I'd say the majority of the way that people get in... Purely from an Account Management point of view
you mean?
I: Erm, you can talk about Account Management because thats your - kinda - your speciality or broader if you want;
up to you I dont really mind!
B: Id say Im more an expert in Account Management than the broader agency but erm. From an Account
Management point of view, it would, the main way would be the grad scheme but obviously that's huge
competition. I've helped, sort of, interview and mark CVs and applications and what not, on the grad scheme and
just the, the sheer volume of applications for what is ultimately. I mean in my 5 and a half years here, the most
we've ever taken on in one year is four and usually it's 2, or in some cases - like [so and so] who's the latest one there's just one. So, you know, there is, there is a huge amount of competition and I guess it's testament to [Agency
X] that - and I guess all the sort of big agencies - that they can be really fussy about who they want. And obviously
the quality of applications that you're getting, even when you to get to like the last 20 or 30 is amazing because, you
know; everyone is sort of well-educated and, you know, seems passionate about the industry and can present; can
do all of that. So its. It's then just. It's, it's almost, I find, tryin' to find the people who you think will be a good, kind
of, personal fit for the agency as well and, you know, get on with everybody. But, from my experience, that's the

46
main way they get in. I think I'm the only one that I know of who's, sort of, come through the work experience route
which. I think it's partly as well - you gotta look at timings and the fact that I came in 2009 which was during the
financial crisis but before I would say any of [Agency X]'s clients, or the agency itself, was feeling it. I mean we didn't
start feeling it for another two or three years, probably two years. So, it was at a time when things certainly were as
tight as they are now and they could afford to, kind of, speculate or invest in that kind of thing. Whereas now, you
know, obviously things are a lot tighter and budgets and hirings and things like that, so. I think mine was, you know,
obviously I'd like to think hard work but probably a bit of luck as well.
I: Which you made yourself, so.
B: Yeah.
I: Erm, ok. So, in terms of the tight environment that it is at the moment, erm. Placements and internships are
another of getting in - or work experience as youve said. What do you think about internships, particularly unpaid
ones? How do you feel about them as a way of getting in?
B: Erm, I think they are what you make them. So, I think there's - in my experience - there's too many people who
sort of come in, sit behind their desk quietly, are a little bit too shy to ask a question or, erm, actually proactively
work out how they can help and, you know, can almost have a slightly forgettable 2 weeks that they don't really
make an impact. And, I think for them it's probably a, a little bit of a waste of the agency's time and a little bit of a
waste of their time, but I think for people who are genuinely keen on the industry and, you know, really make an
impact; I think they're a really good way. Even, for me, even just learning the ins and outs of, 'Ok, so actually there's
a, this is what planners. I came in so fresh to it, you know, just a bit more of an appreciation of, 'OK, I've read a lot of
theory on the industry and what people do but, ok, shit; this is actually what an account manager does and,
creatives work in teams and, oh they're going off for a review over here with all these people - what are they
doing?' kind of thing. You just, kind of, learn the processes and ways of working. I remember, you know. Because
you don't even have an appreciation of like, of like people having diaries or having to manage their own diaries.
Because like, you know, I'd never had a, like a proper office job before, so I sort of rocked up to this one guy and
was like, 'Ohh yeah, can we just have a chat about this 'cause I've got a few...', and he was like, 'Yeah, let me check
my diary', and was like you're sitting in your seat why...
I: Yeah, lets go!
B: Yeah, lets go, you know. It's kind of like, shit, actually people managing their time and just all those things that in
a professional capacity - when you've had like years of being a student and just sort of being on your own time - you
don't actually think about, so. I think it's a really valuable way in. I think agencies can also be a little bit guilty of
getting work experience in and then not necessarily having enough work for them or, kind of, desperately trying to
make up tasks for people. And sometimes it's not always the work experience persons fault but, sometimes the
agency's a bit culpable for not actually. It needs to be a two-way thing. I think the agency needs to be busy and have
tasks that the work experience people can do and get involved in, and so I think it takes a proactive, kind of,
approach from the person coming in on work experience. But I also think it takes a, a really good, whether it's an
AM or an AE or a AD who's overseeing them, to actually make sure they're involving that person, they're not getting
the most out of them.
I: Cool, so, er. You mentioned economically difficult times, erm. But, why do you think - from a personal point of
view - why do you think so many agencies are getting people through; maybe not paying them like the unpaid
internship thing. Like you mentioned, you did quite a stint for a while. Why do you think agencies are doing that?
What's the reasons behind that? Is it finance?
B: I don't really know, I would say it's partly [extremely long pause]. I think, partly, they're slightly disorganised
sometimes, so I think they get people in and, you know, it's not as quick as, you know. I've seen the process when
people like someone or they wanna get someone in, that actually; it's not as quick as going oh we like this guy, right
let's hire him and then give him this amount of money and then sign the contract and then it's all done. I think,
actually, knowing the pace at which, although the agencies are working really quick on like, day-to-day clients and,
and fast-paced turnarounds, I think actually the, the. Especially [Agency X] is probably a bit guilty on like, the adminside of stuff; it takes a little bit of time to get stuff through so although seven weeks seems like a long time in the
grand scheme of things, for me it was actually quite a quick turnaround for stuff. But, there is probably an element
of when you first come in you are cheaper labour and they probably do wanna. It's a lot easier for them to not pay
you then it is to pay you, or to pay you very little then it is to pay an experienced AM or something. But, having said
that, you do need a certain number of staff at a certain level who are going to be able to deliver for you.
I: Sure. So, er, in terms of their fit in agencies - Im gonna keep referring to it as intern now but you can incorporate
work experience as well - how do they fit in the agency? In the grand scheme of things

47
B: In what sense? What do you mean?
I: In terms of integrating themselves within the team
B: From personal experience in the past, people whove
I: Yeah. Maybe even your own.
B: Erm. I think there's. Well, my experience is that I had one really good girl who came and worked for us - called [so
and so] - who was; she was just, you know, really bright, really proactive, she came and sat with the team, she
would, kind of, give you daily updates and just, kind of, actively keep you updated but without; finding that balance
between not pestering you so much that you're getting a thousand emails a day but also not, kind of, 'ohh shit I've
got a work experience here', you know, or an intern that I need to give a task to so. And then, she was just really
good at - again, similar to I think probably what I did - just, if there's a social going on or something in the agency,
just tryin' to get involved and just tryin' to be part of it because. Ultimately, everyone's really busy during their dayto-day and just, yes you can get involved in that bit because ultimately that's what you're here to do, but I think it's
actually the other bit, the social bit; the chatting to various people and actually going, 'You know what, I don't really
know about the creative process', so saying to whoever you're working to, 'Is there a creative I can have a half an
hour chat with?'. Because you'll find that, actually, when you ask for stuff, people aren't gonna go no what a
ridiculous question, of course you can't speak to another... 'Well yeah, let me. There's so and so and, why don't I
see if they've got half an hour either today or tomorrow', that kind of thing. Like today! So, it's literally about just
trying to get your face seen and known by everyone, and I think they're the most successful ones. I think it's the
ones that, kinda, hide away in the corner and look a bit sheepish that get a little bit lost.
I: So generally, the guys that do get involved and stuff, theyre of value to the team?
B: They can be. I think there's that, the balance between. When someone is only in for such a short space of time, it
almost takes them a few days to get into it and there is that erm, you know. You've almost gotta invest as much
time kind of explaining the background to something then getting them to do it. But, they usually, sort of, especially
if they're there for, you know. The interns, for example, who might be there for like a six week placement or
something; certainly if you can invest that time up front in the first week or so then usually they usually can then be
really useful when the ball gets rolling and you keep them up to speed. The main thing is just keeping them in the
loop on stuff. Like I found, rather than just. I'm a big believer in if you're giving someone the context to why you're
asking them to do something, they're usually likely to do a better job for you. So rather than just going, 'Oh, by the
way, can you do this? And I need it by 5', they'll do it but they'll be like, 'Why am I doing this?'. Whereas if you're
like, 'You know what, we've got this client who's got this problem, so on this Thursday we're going in to do this
presentation, which we're hoping will give them more clarity on this, and as part of that, we'd like you to, we need
you to do this'. Then it kind of at least - you know - gives them a bit more understanding of why they're doing
something.
I: Sure, so er. Those guys that aren't quite as valuable, who maybe shy away - just a waste of time? Not really a
benefit for either party?
B: I think, yeah. It's not really a benefit for, for us 'cause as soon as they're sort of not really getting involved or.
'Cause part, part of the industry, I guess, is showing your passion, and showing that you're proactive and you're
engaged and interested and, and it just sets the wrong tone or erm impression and, you know. Part of what you're
looking for as well in Account Management is your whole premise of what we do is relationships and, you know, like
on [client] today - it was my first day on [client]; someone else disappeared off on holiday and I've gotta go in there
and, you know, introduce myself to clients, yeah and just, you know, set the ball rolling. And I'll be in client
presentations next week - and things like that, so - with people I've never met so, the whole. It, it's almost that first
test is how, whether they sink or swim in those first few moments because, part of what we do is you've gotta build
relationships really fucking quickly, get people on-side and, you know, charm the pants off them, and then, you
know, just be really proactive and engaged and. If people aren't doing that as a natural course then you're a bit like,
well are you really the right fit for? But then, you know, on the flip-side, you don't want someone who's so like, you
know like, annoying and like, bouncing off the walls and over the top, and you're like, ohh my God, if I had to sit
next to you on a train, I'd, you know...
I: Kill you?
B: Exactly! So it's, it's. You should be yourself for sure but, but yeah. To go back to your original question - is it a
waste of time for those people who've?... - yes, I would say it is.

48
I: Cool! Erm. So you mentioned from your personal experience you managed to stay with a friend, or whatever,
during your unpaid time, erm. What do you think about the guys who maybe dont have a place to stay in London
and really wanna get in but cant support themselves on the unpaid scheme? Do you think that agencies are missing
a trick with those guys or?
B: Er, I think so. I think there's, there's that unfortunate cruel reality that there probably are a lot of very talented
and amazing people out there who've, for whatever reason. You know, I felt very lucky that I had some savings and
some friends who were able to support me through that process but, no doubt, there are a lotta people who do get
missed because of whatever reason - they can't get up to London or can't support themselves. And, you know,
there's. There is obviously the way of saying, 'Look, I would love to come and work for you guys but would you mind
helping with my accommodation costs?', and things like that but. The sad reality probably is that if they've got, if
they're agencies that are notoriously tight with their money, you know, to a, what's essentially a, a letter and a CV
at that stage; probably haven't built up that personal rapport where theyre like, 'Ohh, we really like this guy', you
know, 'He only wants a couple of hundred quid to cover his, you know, hostel for the week', or whatever. At the
stage where you're still kind of a, behind a computer screen and haven't met them, I think it's really hard to
probably sell the prospect to an agency of, 'Hey, I wanna come work for you and can you cover my accommodation'.
I: Ok er, final section. Were gonna come on to a bit of fortune telling but, firstly, what would you say is the best way
of breaking in at the moment? Would it be to go down the route that you did, perhaps, or?
B: Er, I would say, if they are organised, and are still at University or have some time to break into the industry, very
much go for all the grad schemes. Take your time because the applications are always slightly bizarre and take a lot
longer than you think and are quite exhausting; the number of questions and things they want you to do but. That is
certainly route one, that will get you in front of people and through the door at least. Even if you don't get it then,
you know, you can always follow up with a, 'Could I have a chat about what I could've done better?', or, you know,
ways in. Route two, I would say, is my, the work experience or internship route; it's just about getting some, you
know, experience under your belt, some, you know, essentially evidence that you are passionate - and everyone
says passionate but I mean. People don't, I don't wake up in the morning like, 'Ohh I live for advertising', or anything
like that but you do need some evidence on your CV that you're actually genuinely wanna get into it and you're
good, you know, you wanna give a good run at it. So even if that's: here I've got, you know, three erm, three
different agencies which I've spent two or three weeks at each; that's better than, you know, work experience in
some completely unrelated whilst, you know, failing to get on a grad scheme. Do you know what I mean?
I: Sure, sure. Er, what do you think the system will be in five / ten years time?
B: In terms of entry?
I: Yeah.
B: Probably really similar. Erm. I think. I mean, I dunno. I think the days of the cover, the traditional covering letter
and CV are kinda dying out anyway, and I think that, that agencies are probably slightly ahead of the curve in terms
of the quirky questions and things that they make people answer. But I think only, it's probably only like technology
or social stuff that will probably change the way people apply, you know.
I: So its still going to be about building rapport with that person and
B: Yeah, I think, fundamentally, Account Management is still; it's about relationships, it's about having a personality,
it's about being able to go into a room and sell an idea or a vision, it's about being able to get on with people, it's
about being able to mediate situations, it's about having an instinctive feel, like, gut feel about creative work. And, I
think the, ultimately, the only way to do that is to meet with somebody.
I: Sure. Cool! Er. What do you think this system so say technology , erm, thats gonna be a new area for change what do you think that's gonna do for, in terms of attractiveness, the people wanting to join? Is it gonna make it
more attractive or?
B: Do you mean in terms of the industry as a whole as technology moves on?
I: Yeah, yeah. Yeahp, sure. Or will it put people off?
B: I don't know, I think. People who are probably looking to join, or joining, are, kind of, use to a world of, you know,
social media, and technology, and actually there's loads of really cool exciting stuff that, that you can now do with
advertising and erm, you know. Well you say advertising, it's like ideas now isn't it... It can be experiential, it can be
social, it can be digital, it can be whatever you want it to be, whereas I guess. You know, I've joined the industry at a
really exciting time, and I think anyone else is, because the pace of change is just so crazy. Whereas, you speak to

49
someone who probably joined ten years before, you know, that's such a traditional, like, 'Ok, what's my big TV ad?',
or, 'It'll go in print as well or radio, and we might have a little banner on the internet', type-thing. Whereas now it's
like, you can do...
I: Well have a massive banner on the internet!
B: Yeah, well have a massive banner on the internet! But, you've got like bloggers, and bloggers, and erm, you
know, events and just, all these kind of cool stuff that you can do, so.
I: Sure. Final question: what 3 bits of advice would you give yourself, er, if you were joining Adland, or trying to
break in to Adland, tomorrow?
B: Firstly, don't give up because it is a painful and slow process and you will get far more knock-backs, erm, then
you do successes, but that you shouldn't take it personally. I would. Make sure you have an opinion on the work; so
don't just go in and go - when you do finally get in front of people - don't just go, 'I like this', or, 'My favourite ad is
this from 4 years ago', you know, stay up to date with; almost make them feel a little bit silly for not knowing about
something. Do you know what I mean? Read all the latest blogs, read Campaign, read all the industry press and just
stay up to date with the latest breaking stuff, and just make sure you have an opinion on it; why do you like it? If
you like it, why do you like it? If you don't like it - that's ok, it's a subjective industry - why doesn't it work for you?
People would much rather value someone who, you know, has an opinion on the creative work than just goes along
with it. And, 3: dress for the job you want, not the job you're in.
I: Haha! Have you heard that before? Is that...
B: I have heard that before, and I took that as a really good bit of advice which is why I'm really upset that I've got
this horrible polo shirt. But yeah, I'd say the second one's the, well the first 2 are the really key ones. Keep. Basically,
persevere and make sure you have an opinion on, on everything.
[END]

50
Appendix E - Interview Transcript 2 (Lou)
Key
I = Interviewer
L = Lou
I: Were live!
L: Great.
I: Erm. So, well start with the easiest question out of all of them.
L: Oh God, ok!
I: Which some people actually find the most difficult; which is - who are you?
L: Who am I?
I: Yeahp.
L: So I'm [Lou]. I am New Business and Marketing Manager here at [Agency X].
I: Thats a fancy title!
L: It is! Well, its actually Marketing and New Business, or New Business and Marketing, whichever you like. Erm.
Neither one takes preference, lets say. Erm, so. I would expect for the purposes of this interview thats what you
want to know about me?
I: Yeah, and you could talk about your role a little bit if you wanted?
L: Sure! So, I have a dual role here; so half of it is new business - and that is, erm, prospecting for new business - so
we find gaps in areas where we would like to have accounts, whether that be the [account] that we've just lost so
we wanna get a new [account] as one of our clients, or booze that we haven't had for ages and we know that we
still wanna get them as an account. So we prospect for them and we speculatively contact their marketing directors;
we do loads of research in order to have a bit of credibility when we contact them and ask them for a bit of time in
their diaries to come and meet them. So essentially we're sales in that way and we want to kinda get into peoples
minds that we have a really good set of credentials that we wanna show them and that we have a really good
experience usually in those areas. We also get loads of new business contacts come to us through intermediaries or
through, directly through their marketing or procurement people. Then, we would do all of the research behind
them and setup creds meetings and do it that way. So that's the new business side of the job. We also do quite a lot
with the networks, so with the [parent company] global network; we work collaboratively with the [parent
company] in New York who are our head office. They run the kinda new business tracker database so we have to
put in all of our live pitches and prospecting leads into this database to make sure we're always on track, in terms of
revenue and how much we're spending on the new business pitches as well. The other side is marketing. So we do,
or I in particular, do all of the PR for the agency. So we have a PR agency that we work with as kind of a supplier but
we do all of our press releases and asset-gathering here and then they basically just do the distribution out to the...
So, we also do marketing on our own channels; so social media, we run the website, we do events as well - I do
events - working alongside, whether it be [so and so] as the consultant or [so and so] going forward, and that is to,
so we have a new business and marketing strategy for the year and that's basically on the, we have like an agency
positioning this year which is 'we are the agency that []' because we have this vast, kinda, swathe of erm, of
domestic clients. We, supposedly the stat is that we [removed from transcript to retain anonymity of Agency X].
Etched in my brain! So anyway, so our positioning is that we therefore know what, so we understand British brands
but we also understand British public. So we know how to engage them as an audience, which is really important
because not only do we want to have domestic clients going forward but it's always that we would never be
working on a global account that didn't have erm, that didn't have, kind of, domestic roots here as well. Even if it
was just to be, turning around global stuff from [client] or whatever and if we were adapting that for the UK market,
it's still important to know what they look for. So our events that we run are geared towards furthering our, kind of,
credibility in that realm.
I: Nice! That was probably the most comprehensive answer that Ive had from everybody.

51
L: Yeah, great! Good.
I: Ive had a varying level, from like a sentence all the way through to a dissertations worth.
L: Ooo, I think I was verging on the latter. Theres so many elements to the job!
I: I know yeah, its good. Its good! So how long have you been in the industry?
L: So I've been in creative advertising for just over two years; so since January 2013, yeah it's two years, two
months. Before that I did six months in a media agency and before that I was in media finance for a year and a half.
I: Nice, cool. Were gonna come onto that in a bit! Erm, perhaps the hardest question of the whole interview - when
did you discover, or can you remember when you discovered, advertising?
L: As a medium?
I: Yeah. What were your first, kind of, points of contact with it? That you can consciously recall
L: Mmm. Well, obviously you, you see adverts when you're a child. I only remember them on TV, I don't necessarily
remember adverts being in magazines that I read and obviously I wasn't reading the newspaper when I was like a
five year old child. But I remember watching them in-between, on like CITV and things, 'cause obviously it's full, crap
full of adverts. And I always remember thinking, these really work. So you'll be on Saturday morning, watching TV
shows, kids TV shows, and in the advert break it was all toys, all toys all the time. And my Mum saying to me, 'I wish
they wouldn't show these adverts because all you want, all you want is like this thing that you can put in your hair
and it braids your hair, and this sticker-maker and badge-maker, and that teddy bear and that doll that you can feed
and then you change its nappy and it's a really gross concept, erm. But like, I think you understand from a young
age; even if you don't necessarily put the two together, you actually understand how powerful they are on people's
behaviour.
I: And did that inspire you to pursue it or? Where, where did the. Where did it start of begin?
L: No. Erm. I would say not until I moved to London and was kind of swept up by the whole, everybody that I knew
worked in a creative environment or a creative industry. Friends, not necessarily relatives but there was a whole,
kind of. 'Cause I'm from Manchester, so after University when I moved down to London, there was a whole group of
friends that were already here that I'd known from University or from school or wherever, and it tends to be quite,
erm, a large group of friends and everybody, one person is a friend of another and everybody kinda comes together
and, there's no real, there's no real core group but you just know a lot of people. And so many people worked in
creative industries, so they worked in production houses or, a couple of friends worked for, kind of, design, PR
agencies. Some friends worked for research agencies but maybe the cool side of research agencies; so media
research, market research and stuff like that. And, I worked in a media investment company for a couple of years
after I finished Uni, or came back from travelling, and it was all a bit stuffy and all a bit dry and I understand that you
get paid a lotta money to do that but it was never really my inclination, erm. Advertising came from me just doing a
bit of research into what would be accessible to me in terms of getting into a creative industry. So, I didn't, I knew I
didn't want to work. I think I was more ticking things off that I didn't wanna do and advertising came up as
something that was much more accessible to me than going away and doing a graphic design course, for example.
Or, doing more training to be more heavily involved in the actual creative side of it. Creative services and being able
to come in in an administration role and be able to find out exactly what aspect of it I really enjoyed, and then
pursue that, was a much better route for me than anything else.
I: Yeah, because you got a taste of it.
L: Exactly! So advertising, yes. And as soon as you see, as soon as you start doing a bit of research into advertising, it
becomes something that you've always known your whole life, it's a really easy thing, instantly recognisable and, it's
not a difficult thing to imagine yourself doing because you can be quite consumed by it quite quickly. So, not saying
it was the easiest thing to do; it's not at all. It just happened to work out that way.
I: So did being in the media agency spur you on to join something a little bit fresher?
L: Yeah, definitely. So, especially when I worked for the media agency after the media finance company, which don't
ask me what that is, it's not really relevant to this sector at all. So I worked for [agency] which is previously [agency]
- the media kind of arm of [agency]; were the one that they sort of, they liked their clients to kind of use as their
media partner. And, realised that we were doing all this kinda numbers stuff and there wasn't, it literally linked, we
were the, the buildings next to each other. [Agency] were doing all of the really fun stuff.

52
I: Did you get to see it?
L: Yeah. So, because I was a PA there, I was a PA to one guy in [agency] and two guys in [agency] so every so often,
and the one guy in [agency] was the social media director, so went over there every single day. And, even the
offices were much cooler and everybody walking around was much cooler and there were big kinda storyboards
everywhere and ideas, blackboards and stuff, and you're instantly kind of inspired by that. And because I was doing
an admin role again, I felt at that stage there was no reason for me to be doing an admin role in this industry. It's
not as if I don't have the transferable skills to take over to that and I know that'd be better suited; certainly
personality wise, I think there's a different, sort of, there are different personalities in a creative agency and I can
say that having worked in both I think.
I: So how did you? I cant remember what you said, sorry. Was the media first break into this kind of
L: Yeah.
I: How did you get in there?
L: I did it. So, yeah. So, I. Because I was a receptionist at a media finance company, but for the purposes of this let's
just call it finance company; it really doesn't have anything to do with media apart from the fact it 'financed' media
ventures like festivals and clubs and stuff but we didn't get any of that cool side of it. Because I worked in admin
there, I knew that I wanted to be a PA somewhere and thought, actually, that it would be. I didn't really understand
the difference between media and creative agencies and so I applied for different admin jobs, PA jobs, whatever! Or
assistants jobs at media companies thinking the whole, thinking the whole, either it be media agencies or creative
agencies or TV production houses or whatever, just something that I felt might be a bit more lively than this finance
company that I worked in. And then got the job there pretty easily, I think it's being in admin at that level is.
I: What did you have to do, just interview?
L: Interviewed a couple of times. Went through a recruitment agency - they're really good, I actually really
recommend recruitment agencies 'cause they do a lot of the legwork for you and if you have just a bit of experience
in what they're trying to recruit for then they are very, kind of, forthcoming with the jobs and stuff. Arguably, they
send you forward for much more than anyone, and a lot, I don't. Obviously they get paid when they place people
and they place people for a certain amount of time they get paid more and more after they've hit their probationary
period, I think. But, they still do, not necessarily have all of your interests at heart, but they know that they're, it's
their job to get you a, a good job and you don't have to take the interviews of jobs that they put you forward for if
you don't want to. So yeah, I had a couple of interviews there. And I remember saying at the time, I'd really like to
move in the industry; I don't want to be an admin assistant forever! They seemed to be fine with that but I don't
think all, going in at an admin level, I don't think I would recommend that that was the, that's the kinda of right way
to play it. Certainly not here but I think every agency's slightly different, yeah.
I: So was [agency] the first taste of Adland?
L: Yeah, definitely.
I: So where did you go from the media agency?
L: Here.
I: Straight here?
L: Yeah.
I: And how did you end up here?
L: Well, I. So I didn't really like the media agency, went there for a couple of months, didn't really like it. Actually, I
quit before I had another job, because I didn't like, because I really didn't like it. It wasn't the agency necessarily and
it wasn't, it was just one person that we didn't get along very well and I happened to work with her very closely; she
was the other PA there. And so, because I wasn't enjoying it anyway, I thought I would just quit and then find
another job, so I temped for a while and, again, when you've got admin skills it's really really easy to temp. I
amended my CV to make it look like I was doing much more, more creative stuff then I had been doing, so I put
loads of emphasis on the fact that I worked for that social media guy rather than the client services guy and that
was putting together, that like, look and feel of different marketing materials and blah blah blah. And, crafted it in
such a way that it looked as if I'd been doing quite a lot of creative stuff. So, I applied for a job here as a PA, team PA
to [client] and to [client] and to [client]; three accounts that we used to have. Actually we've still got [client] but it's

53
more of a [parent company] account than a [Agency X] one. And then I, and it was also PA to two directors as well
so. Came in, came in for two different interviews; one with the head of PAs, [so and so] - she interviewed me for
about forty-five minutes and then I left - and then I got another call, so I got a call back interview with [so and so]
and [so and so], and they interviewed me for an hour each, so I had an hour with [so and so] I think and an hour
with [so and so]. And it wasn't together, it was, it was separately.
I: One after the other?
L: Yeah. One after the other, so it was a two hour, kinda, grilling. I found out that they'd been down to two girls, me
and this other girl who had a lot more experience in creative industries or whatever, so that's why I knew they'd
made the interviews so, so long and difficult. And ended up getting it, and that is, that was, yeah, just over two
years ago.
I: So, youve already talked about arriving here. So how did you transfer to the role that youre Can you do a bit of
a timeline from PA to where you are now?
L: Sure can. Sure can. So, I. So in January 2013, got a job as PA.
I: Not that long ago actually; really, in the grand scheme of things.
L: No, yeah. So I've had two promotions, three promotions, two promotions in two years. Yeah. So that, I did, just
over a year, I did thirteen months as PA.
I: Tough?
L: It was, it was yeah. It was tough. It was because I worked for two completely different personalities in the agency;
arguably the most difficult in the agency, who weren't necessarily the best of friends with each other either. They
weren't as understanding - as they perhaps might have been had they have worked closer with each other - of the
fact that I was spending a lot of time on one project for one of them and started to get a little twitchy about that.
[So and so] had always had his own 100%, dedicated PA and [so and so] had, had probably something similar or
never had to at least share it with somebody that used to have a 100% PA. So that was a bit of a kinda struggle
between them. [So and so] also spends something like 100,000 a year in expenses. It was just under 10,000 a
month of expenses that you had to put through and at the same time, working for three different teams, working
globally as well because we, I, conversed with the [client] team in New York and then, time-wise, that was really
weird because obviously they're five hours behind so everything you can get done in the morning for [client] and for
[client], then you have to start working on the [client] in the afternoon. [So and so] was away a lot so were
organising loads of travel. [So and so] needed, had her own demands, let's say. And it was a really difficult job but I
loved it. I was also PA to Account Management as a department as well because at that time [so and so] was Head
of Account Management, it just so happened that that's just how it happened. It was the job I was hired for but you
take on those responsibilities and then you kinda gotta own them so why not. I was told about six months in that if
you wanna move into the agency and do something else then you've really gotta prove it, you've really got to prove
yourself. It's not a given, that's it's gonna happen.
I: And how do you prove yourself?
L: The best advice I was ever given is, do your job really, really, really, really well. Don't try and do a job away from
yours. Don't try and do the job that you want because somebody has to be doing your job as well; you've been hired
to do it. You can prove yourself really well, really quickly and really efficiently by absolutely nailing your job and
people aren't stupid and can see potential. If I wanted to be an Account Exec, for example, and I was a PA, and I was
looking for Account Exec work all the time and pestering the team and asking them to give me contact reports to
type up and timelines to look into or whatever, who was doing my other job? Unless your other job isn't full enough
and you can take these other things on, but still, people don't like it when you're stepping on toes, and when you're
getting ahead of yourself, and really really people respect the fact that you respect your job. Somebody gave me
that advice about six months in and said, 'look, just do your job really well. People know you're worthy of a
promotion if it cuts to that point. And people know that you are hardworking and good enough, and I think the time
will come but it's not now so keep going'. Everyone always says it, keep doing what you're doing and you'll get,
you'll get there. Keep doing what you're doing; and sometimes it's really demoralising cause you want to be given
firm objectives to meet so that you can meet them and then get ahead. But it doesn't always work out like that,
often because they don't have anything in the pipeline that they can give you. If you're trying to move sideways in a
company it's, it's based on, kind of, opportunity rather than you just being good and then finding an opportunity for
you. It's not, it doesn't always work like that. So, there was a grad scheme that came up in September of that year,
so that was about nine months after I started, and I remember really wanting to apply for it and getting, being given
the advice - because [so and so] was running it as well - being given the advice don't apply for it. If you apply, then it
looks as if you are basically doing everything in your power to get out of the job that you're in at the moment. You

54
should say to [so and so], and to the team that are picking, kind of, the grads, that it's something that you're really
interested in but you didn't think it was the right approach blah, blah. I was given really good advice from [so and
so] who was the, kind of, Vice Head of Account Management at that time and he'd obvious spoken to [so and so]
about, not necessarily me but people. It happens all the time that people in the agency wanna move around and it's
important to know how that's thought of. So people think really differently of it across the board. I think [so and
so]s of the opinion that, maybe she's a bit oldschool in how she thinks about it. She thinks that everybody should
come in on a grad scheme if you wanna work in advertising; you apply for a grad scheme and you achieve it by merit
and then you are on your career path. She thinks, let's not necessarily say [so and so] but people in that position,
also then think that if you're coming in doing a different role, then it's not a given that you would get that
opportunity; it's a real, kind of, proving process. Whereas there are other people that think 'get someone in on work
experience and if they're good enough and they deserve to stay then they will stay'. And there's two ends up of the
spectrum and there's everybody in-between. So there's hoping that the right people with the right mind-set about
giving younger people the opportunity to find what they wanna do while they're already in the agency and, kind of,
carve out a bit of a role for themselves or just better understand what they want to do and the pursue that route.
You've just gotta hope that those people are in a position to make those decisions when it comes down to it.
I: Cool! So, er. Youve talked about people here.
L: Yeah.
I: What's the culture like here, working at [Agency X]?
L: Erm. The people here are fantastic so everybody always says that. We have really lovely leaving speeches
whenever anybody leaves and I don't know whether it's just, whether it's tradition now or what but every time they
do a leaving speech at the end they say, 'and I know everybody says it, it's a massive clich, but the reason I've
stayed here for as long as I have is; you guys'. Everybody that comes here that's worked at other places - which, you
know, so many of us, nobody's, not loads of us are kinda grassroots from here - say that it is one of the nicest
agencies it's ever worked in, they've ever worked in. It's got the nicest, most talented people who are now given the
opportunity to, kind of, work on amazing brands that perhaps they were in smaller agencies before and didn't get to
do that, or in massive agencies and didn't get actually the exposure to a client as they should've. And so, people can
come and thrive here; is what I've heard. I'm not saying me or whatever, no. It's supposedly a small, big agency.
Small, obviously big in its numbers, small in its kind of characteristics; in the way that everybody knows everybodys
name, everybody says hi to everybody as they walk past, nobody has an enemy in the room - and if you do it's not
gonna work because it's, you know, 'a small agency' and that's not how it runs. Bigger agencies, if you didn't like
people, you didn't get on with a certain team member or whatever, switch around; you had different floors, you
never see them again. There's no politics like that here and there can't be because we're all open plan, everybody is
involved with everybody else and it's an important dynamic to maintain because our relationships with each other
are important to our relationships with our clients and how the clients view their relationship with us if they see,
you know, how good we are with each other. So it's an important thing, really is.
I: Youve led on perfectly to my next point - or subject area - and thats people, erm, but from the spectrum.
Youve already talked a lot about it but, how are the relationships throughout - from all the way at the very bottom
up through to the top end of management?
L: Well, supposedly there are no walls in the agency. Management, CEO, Chairman, ECD; everybody sits, not in an
office, but over a, on a desk next to my desk, actually. And, if you want to know - this is best example I can think of about two ends of the spectrum coming together and having actually a really nice relationship, and it will be like this
across the board but this is one example; [intern] and [CEO] sit opposite each other. Every single day they have, I
hate the word but, 'banter' together, every day. They warmed to each other so much and even though they are
worlds apart in terms of what they do and their responsibilities and their levels, they are good friends and it's a
really nice thing to see. Across the board, I mean I would like to think that once you're in the door, it's hard to get in
the door, but once you're in the door, everybody's treated with the same respect as you'd like to be treated with
yourself. And, we only have a couple of work experience people at a time, or ever, and we only have a couple of
interns at a time. And, you've worked really hard to get that opportunity so people really respect you for it and,
there just isn't, it's supposed to be a really. When I say it's supposed to be I mean it, it is. It is but it's consciously, it
consciously is. It's supposed to be because that is our, kind of, motto and it's a motto that we stick to. And it is,
everybody collaborates with everybody else, so you know that it's rugby not relay mantra. Sorry to bring it up
because it's one of those really bullshit corporate mantras but I actually think in this case that it really, it really
resonates. Yeah, just everybody, everybody working together; passing the ball between the two of you, between
the whole team and passing it back again, and it flows really easily like that. Everybody really knows their level of
responsibility and where it starts and ends, but they don't hand it over. You still follow things up and you still make
sure that if you've been involved in a project at the start, you still wanna know where it ended. And, regardless of
whether you're the most junior or the most senior in the room, it's really really important that everybody works
together, and it's a conscious effort that we do that and we do do it.

55
I: Good! Nice. So, the guys coming in at the very very bottom; how do they get in the door? You mentioned it is
quite difficult but how do they go about doing that? What are the different routes?
L: Hmm. Well, yeah there are different ways. I wouldn't say any of them are foolproof or easy. They also change
year on year. When I first started we ran a grad scheme every year; you didn't have to have any advertising
experience at all, you could be fresh out of University - usually University, I'm not sure we ever took any applicants
that hadn't gone to University or weren't graduates - so we used to take maybe three a year. The process was in
September and you could start the following January or the following September if you were still, still at University.
We also ran a work experience programme which was two weeks you spent here and you shadowed a team. And
we also ran an internship programme, not necessarily the one that you came on, but that was, kind of, department
specific. But we ran agency-wide internship programmes, so that was six weeks and people could come in and
shadow different departments and get an overview of how the industry worked. Currently, we don't run any of
those things.
I: Oh no. How come?
L: So. We don't run a grad scheme - I don't think - because of budget. I think that perhaps they're trying to give the
people in the agency who are in admin roles at the moment, give them a really good, kind of. Even though it's
difficult to do, if you prove yourself you will be given, kind of, a leg-up and you might be that exec position that, and
you already have, like, a years experience in this agency behind you so you can kind of hit the ground running.
There's not loads and loads of call for junior members of staff in a, an agency of this size. So, we couldn't take three
a year, so we took three then we took two, then we took one guy last year. One guy, yeah, two years ago - end of
2013. And then we didn't run one last year. I honestly think it is because there just wasn't the roles to fill. It's not to
say we'll never do it again, it's just that, opportunities, the opportunity hasn't arose to fill positions. Erm, work
experience is something that, it's really really really oversubscribed and how do you, how do you pick people to do
it? I wasn't really involved in the work experience programme so much but I do know that they had hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of emails from people that wanted to do a week or two weeks work experience. Because
we don't have a formal programme or we don't have somebody that overseas it, because they don't have the time
to do it. Think about how time consuming it is to have somebody very junior shadowing you all the time. They'd
have to go from different person to different person and it's just not something that we've been able to have the,
erm, the kinda man-power to run. Internships are slightly different. So that was work experience. Internships,
slightly different. If there is a need for somebody junior, so for on our team for example in the marketing
department, or in digital production; if they see that the workload is getting quite high, they don't know whether
they need somebody permanently, but it's a good opportunity to train somebody up so that they have the
experience and also, it's, kind of, low-paid labour.
I: Yeah, so, cost-effective.
L: It's cost effective and it works both ways but, if again we don't have the need for it, we won't be able to hire
anybody. At the moment [Agency X] is, kind of, gliding like a plane that's, sort of, the engines have, kind of, blown.
I'm not saying we're nose diving, I'm saying we sort of gliding and we need a little bit of a kick to go back up. When
that happens, the opportunities will open up at the bottom; of course they do. And that's where they open up first
and that's where we'd get the most, kind of, pickup and people would be most excited by it. But, if the agency's not
doing tremendously well and we don't have time to think about hiring junior people, we don't have the resource to
pay them or the resource to hang around with them and tutor them, and we don't have the need for them at all,
then we wouldn't, we wouldn't hire them.
I: Cool! So, er.
L: That wasn't a very positive, kind of Truthful!
I: Yeah - thats, thats what we want! If it was full of lies then it would be a rubbish interview, so. Erm. So, youve
talked about work experience, youve talked about internships and with regard to that lets talk about the
unpaid element. So, what do you think about unpaid stints of time? Is it a good opportunity for people or are there
any concerns with it?
L: Well. Yeah, personally I dont agree with the notion of having people work for you but as, kind of a. We're owned
by, you know, the biggest advertising company in the world. We are part of a huge multi-national group and
network and we have a big turnover of money in this agency. There is no reason why you should get somebody who
is junior and can't support themselves, and pay them no money. I think there is a big move now in advertising,
hopefully - I certainly see it here - to never hiring anybody and not paying them. Now, that might have just been in
the last six months or so that we've really felt that it was important. Certainly we would never hire anyone in our
department that wasn't paid. I think there's a real motivation that comes behind being financially rewarded for your
time and it's a really, really, really short term opportunity if you're not willing, or prepared to, pay people. I would

56
much prefer to have somebody for a longer amount of time; six weeks is, kind of, the shortest that I'd want to have
a junior person for because it's an investment of my time to train them and I completely appreciate that people
can't work for longer than a week without being paid any money. I don't think that we should always see it as we're
giving junior people the opportunity and the pleasure of working in this agency, therefore they literally have to pay
for that honour.
I: Do you think other people feel like that?
L: Yeah.
I: Within the agency or within the industry or?
L: Everybody. I think it's a really. I think new-age advertising, of which there is a lot, you know, it's a big movement
as far, you know. Even if it's just something people talk about it's. Old-school advertising is an idea that people
dismiss all the time, 'oh that guy is so annoying, he's really old-school advertising'. You know, somebody that insists
on having a PA and who is, never reads an email, just prints everything out and. You know, like. I think it's a
generational thing, but I do think there are people in old-school advertising still, I still think we need to give them a
little bit of credit that wouldn't expect people to pay to work for longer than a couple of weeks without being paid.
Now maybe that's just here but everybody that I've spoken to about having work experience. I suppose internships
are different. Work experience we wouldn't pay people because we would consider that more of a disruption to us
to have them but we understand that it's necessary for them to come and get some experience so. And they
wouldn't be doing 'real work'. They're just, kind of, shadowing and doing the stuff that we would have to be
showing them anyway. If you're here and actually working, and adding value, then you should be rewarded. I do
think that people agree with that across the board. I think you would find, there's certainly people, but few
proportionally that think you can have people, people work for you for free.
I: Is there an element of - you mentioned, erm, people feeling like - you're lucky to be here. Is that evident here or?
L: By some people. For us it's a. I get the feeling that it is, not because you're lucky to be in the industry. People
think you're lucky to be here at [Agency X] because, people that work at [Agency X] are real champions of the
agency; they think they have the most fantastic clients, which we do. We produce the most. Aha - I'm that guy.
What am I doing? Let's stick slightly objectively if we can [Lou]. We have, like, amazing household names, for clients
with incredible creative opportunities that, I mean, opportunities that they bring. We create amazing creative work,
and always have. Like, we're always really proud of the work that we do. And also the people and the culture and
everything else. So when people say, or that there is notion kinda flying around of, 'you're lucky to be here', people
genuinely think you're lucky to work at [Agency X].
I: Is that across the board do you think? Or is it more?
L: Funnily enough, people that have worked at other places can come here and say to junior people, 'you're really
lucky to be here'. Junior people don't necessarily always feel it because we don't get, as far as I'm aware, we don't
get paid, kind of, industry standard wages and the career progression is slightly slower, arguably. So, it feels a little
bit stunted when you're a more junior person here. And you have people, like, you know when your parents say,
'Don't grow up too fast. Don't wish your life away'. When you have more senior members of staff here saying,
'you're lucky to work here and that's why we don't pay you as much money', it doesn't, it doesn't always make up
for it but, I think, because those junior people haven't worked anywhere else before, the grass seems greener at
other places but I've got the feeling it isn't.
I: So theres an element of truth there thats why
L: Im sure. Im sure.
I: Ok. So why are - in your opinion - why are unpaid internships rife in Adland? Why are there so many of them?
L: Because it's a really oversubscribed industry to work in. Because they, they know that they will get people to
work for free. Because there is a certain, not so much anymore necessarily, but I do think that there's a certain
element of being able to live with your parents - oh, and looking at somebody's CV; 'Where do they live?' 'Brighton'.
'Oh, well we're not going to pay them so how are they gonna support themselves? Let's look at somebody's CV
whose parents live in London and we can probably get away with not doing it'. So then you get a whole swathe of
people who are from the South East, who live with their parents, that can work for free, and you end up getting this
kinda gentrified, elitist group of people that obviously end up going up and up in the agency - in the industry - and
that breeds the next generation of it as well. So, I do think there is an element of the people that work here in
senior positions that are picking more junior members of staff, said, 'I worked for free in my day, of course whoever
wants to join this company has got to do it as well'. Whereas I think the reality of the situation is not like that. I do

57
think that people are, can be expected to work for free, and that's why there is a, it's horrible to say it. I don't know.
That is fine - there's such a large amount of it but I think it needs to be more universal change in peoples attitudes.
If there was a ban on getting people to work for free for more than two weeks then I don't think people would do it.
I: No? Would that be a good thing? A ban?
L: Yeah. You wouldn't have people working for free in any, in any other circumstance would you? I mean I
understand the experience but experience is one thing. But you can't. Why should the people that can work for free
be the only ones that get to experience those experiences?
I: Thats what the next question is. What about those guys that dont apply because they cant fund themselves?
Are they missing out potentially, or? And are the agency missing out from them?
L: Yeah. Absolutely! There is nothing to say that people that can afford to support themselves on no money are
more worthy for a job than anybody else, they just have a better, kind of, starting point and it's probably a bit easier
for them from the start. I do think people that can't afford to apply because they can't support themselves and work
for free, there are other ways to do it. I moved to London and had to support myself. Had to work somewhere regardless of what it was - and was willing to, arguably, spend a couple of years proving myself, whereas maybe
people in an internship have to spend a couple of months. But it's worth it in the end, I think. If you're with a good
agency and you come in through a different route, regardless of what that is; on reception or an admin role or. Like,
there's a guy here who you met last night who came in as a work experience for two weeks, unpaid. Didn't wanna
stay and do unpaid internships if that's what it was, and I don't know whether internship was even on the cards, but
there was an opportunity going for an admin role that he took and he's been here ever since. I mean, he's gonna
leave soon because he's probably not being financially rewarded as he should be, but he's still being paid and you
can still, kind of, support yourself on that money if not, quite, sort of, spartanly. But erm, there are other ways to do
it. I would absolutely not give up if you just can't afford to work for free because there has to be another way and I
do think people's attitudes towards working for free is changing.
I: So is it, is it the students - or the person on the internship do you think its, they, they should be the ones that
really should not give up and theyre the ones that should take control? Or do you think the agencies should be
looking at other ways of doing it?
L: Both. I dont think that you can have one without the other. I think that, if. Agencies will, I think. It's gonna take a
lot to change any attitude over a whole, kind of, industry. But I really think it is getting there. I think it needs a, more
bravery and more of a push from the interns themselves to put yourself forward for things that you actually, it's not
the route that you thought you were gonna get it through but, ultimately, it's the only way, and it might take a bit
longer, but you will get there. Take me for example, if you join as an admin assistant or whatever, and you work
here for a year, and then within, and then did a marketing. So now I do a marketing job and after a year of doing
that was promoted again. If you never give up that, kind of, fight to prove yourself. Because you're trained to do it
from the moment you start, as an admin, thinking that you need to prove yourself in order to get any better, you're
so trained all the time to be trying to impress people and trying to get them to see your potential all the time that,
actually, you'll probably have more hunger and drive for it than if you got it from an easier way.
I: Yeah, thats true. And thats come up before other people have said that. What do you think the agency intern
relationship is like in terms of, like, integration within the team; how they get on with other members? You did
mention [so and so] and the CEO doing quite well but...
L: Yeah. So we're a small team so it's much easier for us. [So and so] is treated more like a, an exec than 'the intern'.
Certainly nobody ever refers to him as the intern. He's not an intern on his signature; he's marketing assistant. For
all intents and purposes, he's a fully integrated, fully integrated member of the team and of the agency, erm.
I: People value his work, generally?
L: Certainly. Definitely. I think he is really, erm, really valued and I think because he is so integrated within the team,
and within the agency. And he really, he doesn't let it lie. You know, if he ever thinks that he should be attending a
meeting that [so and so] and I have gone to, he'll ask us if he should come along and if he shouldn't then 'can you
brief me afterwards' and blah, blah, blah. And so, that, kind of, passion for it is really important and it means that
we're then responsive to him which gives him much more, kind of. Just gives him a bit of a morale boost every time
and I think that's important because, even though he gets paid, he doesn't get paid loads of money and I think you
need the smaller things; the kindness from people and the encouragement and everything else, even if it's just with
words, to say what a good job you're doing. Sorry we can't give you a bonus but we can tell you, you know. You're
an amazing person to work with.

58
I: Thats nice. Erm. Do you think [so and so]. Maybe not [so and so] as an example as he is paid but. Somebody
thats not paid that comes in; do you think they ever pose as a threat to other employees because of I dont know
the fact that their, obviously their agenda isnt to stay unpaid, its to turn it into a job? Does anybody else see that
as a bit of a concern, or?
L: So theyre kind of ruthless in the fact that they want to get in at a junior level?
I: Yeah. And that they might, in turn, end up. I guess, the other way of looking at it is. Do you think because ad
agencies may not hire another position because they can give it away to an intern and have them work for free; do
other people see that, is there any tension there?
L: I wouldn't say that any role that anybody already in the agency is aspiring to get would be filled by an intern. I
think there is, there are entry-level jobs that, potentially, you can't get unless you're coming in and doing them as
an intern unpaid for the first part of it or whatever, so. I think there are fewer opportunities for people that want to
just start off working and not have, have to go through the internship route. Because it's not secure; so you might
invest all of this time and savings and everything else to working for very little money so you can come and work
here and then after six weeks - see ya later. Whereas, I think it would be more beneficial to the agency - and
certainly to the people who are coming to do the job - for it to be a permanent role that they're applying for and
there's a six month probationary period, so you prove yourself and you can stay but there's a role that they're hiring
for. Whereas, there's just a lack of commitment from agencies to want to do that for some reason. It's not as if
they're hiring for speculative, kind of, accounts that we're working towards or something, it's usually to work on an
account that has a, we have a retainer contract with that we do ongoing pieces of business with; it's not project by
project, it's consistent and that we will consistently need that level of support. And I think that it's quite strange that
we wouldn't hire people, whoever it may be - somebody straight from University. Why do they need to come in as
an intern and do six weeks and then have to go somewhere else? Why do they not just hire them? And if they're not
good enough then, you know, those are the terms on which they were hired and they wouldn't stay on, if that was
the case.
I: So, whats the system bit of fortune-telling whats the system going to be like in five or ten years do you think?
Will it be a, erm, come in and prove yourself type permanent role and probation period, or? How do you see it
panning out?
L: I think they'll always do internships because it's experience for the intern. Lots of people actually start as interns,
here, not knowing what department they wanna work in or whether they even wanna work in the industry at all.
They might have joined like me and think they wanna work somewhere creative and be around creative minds and
be inspired by that but don't necessarily know they wanna work in advertising. And being in an agency's hard;
nobody ever tells you how difficult it is working for an agency of any kind. Working for clients is a really difficult
thing to do; it's long hours, it's hard work, you're always, you know, not by each other, but you can be treated by
clients in any way that they want. Whereas, you know, you've got friends that work for, they are the clients; they
work for brands, they work for [client] or whatever and they leave at 5.30 and then leave work at the door. It's a
completely different environment to work in and I think that it's probably hard to ask young people who've never
had any experience of working before to come and work at an agency and, you know, you have this commitment
now. It's a taster but I think that there should be, if I - maybe not fortune-telling but maybe a bit of wishful thinking
- there should be an internship programme in every internship place that, that is offered, there is a job. There is a
job at the end of it, if you so wish.
I: And if that was the case, what would that mean for the people wanting to join; if that system was in place? Do
you think the creative industry would be more attractive for people wanting to join?
L: Yes, but I think it would be much harder. I think there's a turnover of interns because that's how they can do it.
So, you come in and you do six weeks and you go again and then somebody else can come in and do their six weeks.
So there's a whole bank of people that've got lots of experience to go off and do other things that they wanna do in
perhaps smaller agencies like, I know 18 Feet & Rising or Fallon or whatever, who wouldn't be able to afford to take
on an intern but do want people with a couple of months worth of experience because then they don't have to
shadow them all the time. And so you get in the industry somewhere but not necessarily in this big company. I think
if every job, if every internship supposedly led to a job, it would clog up very quickly and there would be no
opportunity for people to do it. So, I think there's striking a balance between the two. You can, perhaps a monthlong work experience programme where there's no, erm, no confirmed job at the end of it but you come in and
you're able to get experience and then move on again. And it literally is experience; maybe a different word for it
but interning on the assumption that. So kind of a programme - maybe run it instead of a grad scheme which is too
hard to get on to and they turn into jobs, even if they're a year, you know. I would much rather - if I was a young
person going for a job - much rather. If I'm gonna take the plunge and move down to London and work for free for a
couple of weeks, and then they start paying me not very much money and I have sorted out some accommodation
here and everything else, it's a big commitment to make to not have any security. So if they were to, say, you're

59
doing an internship and you would have a job at the end for a year to really hone in on your skills as a potential
kinda marketeer and then you can, you get a really well rounded bit of experience and you can spread your wings
after that. Perhaps that's a better way.
I: And that would attract a more diverse audience; it wouldnt just be the
L: I think so. So it's not a really short stint of time you don't get paid for, but it's not also a locked-in job that you
potentially feel pressure to stay at and that the agency gets clogged-up with people because they can't offer any
opportunities to people without giving them a job.
I: Cool. Thats it. Im gonna press the button now.
[END]

60

61

62

63

Você também pode gostar