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GrainFillingwithShellac

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#1

07012011, 8:42AM
HarveyPascoe

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GrainFillingwithShellac
SincethisforumhasrelativelyfewtopicsIdecidedtostartanewthreadasacontinuationofa
previous.
IthinkitwasScottHolmeswhosuggestedtotrygrainfillingwithshellac.Soundedimprobable
tome,butlastnightIdidsomeexperimentation.Afterthickeningupmyjarofshellacbyadding
moreflakeatthispointIhavenoideawhattheratioisbutI'dguessaround1:3or4.Then
put3coatsonIndiarosewood,amoderatelyfinegrainedwood,sandingbetweencoats.Atleast
fromwhatIcanseeundermagnification,itseemstobeworkingwell,butonlytimewilltell
afterapplyingthefirstcoatofvarnish.
Severalthingsoccurredtomeaboutgrainfillingandoneisthatcapillaryeffectplaysamajor
role.Capillaryeffect,alongwithosmosis,isthemechanismthatmakesthetreegrow.
Capillariesconductfluidalongitslengthviaamethodknownasaqueoustension.However,
whenthecellisexposedbycuttingthewood,theeffectisalteredsothatcapillaries,
particularlyshortones,canalsoejectthefluidweattempttofillthemwith.Thisbecomesvery
apparentwhenweapplyvarnishoracrylictoveryporouswoodlikemahoganyorwalnut.The
finishisejectedfromtheexposedcellandmoundsupalongtheupperedgesofthecell,sothat
ifyoudon'tsandbetweencoats,thefinishjustkeepsmoundingupandthecelldoesn'tgetfilled.
Thinkofthislikeaditchdiggerwhothrowsthedirtupalongthemarginsofhisditch.
Therefore,whenwefinallyendupfillingthecellswithfinish,whatwearereallydoingisnot
filling,butbridgingtheupperopeningofthecellsuntiltheyareclosed,unlesswefindawayto
preventthecellsfromejectingthefluid.Weseewhathappenswhenweattempttoforceafiller
intotheopencellasitoftenpopsbackupoutofthecellbecausethefilleristryingtocompress
theairinthecell.Notethatallofthisishighlydependentoncellsizeandviscosityofthefinish
orgrainfiller.Nowcomethshellac.
Theviscosityofshellacduetoalcoholisextremelylowandbecauseofthatitappearstome
thatthecelldoesnotejecttheshellacbycapillaryeffectandthereforethecellappearstofillup
withsolidssomewhatfaster.Further,thereisnobridgingeffectandthefillingisCOMPLETEand
willgreatlyreducethetendencyforthefinishtoshrinkovertime,sinkintotheunfilledcell,
andresultinfinishchecking.
IthinkthisexplainswhyI'vehadsolittlesuccesswithwaterbasefillers(andothersreportthe
same).I'mnotsuggestingthatthickenedshellacwillworkwellongrainporouswoodslikeoak
orashbutitmaywellbeworthatryonthelikesofwalnut.NextupIwilltrycocobolowhichis
highlyvariableastocellsize,oftenbeingquitelargeanddeep.

Doesanyofthismakesensetoyou?
LasteditedbyHarveyPascoe07012011at8:48AM.

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#2

07012011, 10:01AM
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PhilThien
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Sep2006
Milwaukee,WI
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OriginallyPostedbyHarveyRabbett

Doesanyofthismakesensetoyou?

Yep.I'dbeinterestedinhearingwhetherthiswouldworkforoak.Woulditbepossible,when
you'retryingitonthecocobolo,toalsotryasmallpieceofoak?

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#3

07012011, 11:07AM
HarveyPascoe

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OriginallyPostedbyPhilThien

Yep.I'dbeinterestedinhearingwhetherthiswouldworkforoak.Woulditbepossible,when
you'retryingitonthecocobolo,toalsotryasmallpieceofoak?

Idon'thaveanyoakbutIcantryitwithsomeash.

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#4

07012011, 11:13AM
JohnTenEyck
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Mostwoodsthatareopenporedwillacceptfiller.Perhapsyouhaven'tusedanappropriatefiller
ortechniqueifyouhaven'thadsuccessinthepast.Mahogany,walnut,oak,etc.allfillpretty
easily.FineporedwoodsareadifferentstoryandIcanseehowshellaccouldworkbetterwith
them.Surfacetension,morethanviscosity,mightalsoplayaroleinwhetherornotone
materialwantstofilltheporeorcoalescearoundtherim.

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07012011, 11:20AM

#5

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PrashunPatel
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Apr2007
NewJersey
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You'reprobablymoreofascientistthanI,butI'vebeenabletofillgrainwithshellac,several
kindsofvarnish,andevenoil/varnish/woodslurry.
Ialwaysassumedthereasonshellacdoesnot'bleedback'isbkzitdriessodarnquickly.Oil
varnishestendtobleedoutofmostwoodsbecausetheyremainwetlongenoughforthecellsto
spit.ButshellacislikeMedusa.
Ididnotthinkgrainfillwasafunctionofcapilaryactioninthecells,butjustafunctionofthe
cratersinthesurfaceofporouswoods.Youcanreallyfillthosecraterswithanythingthat'sfine
enoughtofitinsidethem,evendrywallcompoundorgluewill'work'.
Shellacwillevenworktocompletelyfillthegrainonhighlyporouswoodslikeoakandash.It
justmaytakeawhile.

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#6

07012011, 11:45AM
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HowardAcheson
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Mar2003
Southport,NC
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Hereisanexcellentarticleonthesamesubjectbyaverywellrespectedwoodworker/restorer.
http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com...hShellac.aspx

Howie.........

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#7

07012011, 1:47PM
HarveyPascoe

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OriginallyPostedbyJohnTenEyck

Mostwoodsthatareopenporedwillacceptfiller.Perhapsyouhaven'tusedanappropriatefilleror
techniqueifyouhaven'thadsuccessinthepast.Mahogany,walnut,oak,etc.allfillprettyeasily.
FineporedwoodsareadifferentstoryandIcanseehowshellaccouldworkbetterwiththem.
Surfacetension,morethanviscosity,mightalsoplayaroleinwhetherornotonematerialwantsto
filltheporeorcoalescearoundtherim.

Sure,pigmentedfillerstainsworkjustfinebutweweretalkingaboutgainfillingwith
transparentfillers.I'vesandedvarnishandoilintothewood.Yuck,Ididn'tliketheresult.

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#8

07012011, 5:59PM
JohnTenEyck
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OriginallyPostedbyHarveyRabbett

Sure,pigmentedfillerstainsworkjustfinebutweweretalkingaboutgainfillingwithtransparent
fillers.I'vesandedvarnishandoilintothewood.Yuck,Ididn'tliketheresult.

Dec2010
WNY
3,892

Inadditiontopigmentedfillers,youcanbuytransparentpastefillersIthinktheyaresilica
based.Inanycase,theydoexist,andareanalternativetotheshellacmethod.

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#9

07012011, 10:09PM
HarveyPascoe

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IfinisheduptheIndiarosewoodgrainfillingtoday,4appsof1:3shellac/alcoholandthengave
itashotofvarnish.Nearperfect.Ialsotriedsomequartersawnash,also4appsofsame.Not
completelyfilledbutlooksprettygoodwithoneshotofvarnish.Reallyneedstwomoreshellac
todothejob.Yeah,Phil,itworksfine.
Fillingandsandingisfastandeasy,noneofthatmalarkeyofusingasqueegeacrossthegrain
andmakingabigmess.Plus,ifyouwanttouseitforcolorchange,youcandothattoo.Going
darker,notlighter.Ididthisonunassembledpartsforaboxwhichwasniceinthatitprevented
theusualproblemofunseengluespotting.
Howlongdidthefillingtake?DiditinstageswhiledoingotherthingsbutI'dsaynotmorethan
twentyminutestotal,excludingmixingandcleanup.

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#10

07012011, 10:47PM
ScottHolmes
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TheauthorofthisarticleistheguyIcallwhenIrunintotrouble.Steveisafriendanda
FINISHINGGURU.

Scott
Finishingisan'Art&aScience'.Actually,itisaprocess.Youmustunderstandtheproperties
andtendenciesofthefinishyouareusing.Youmustknowtheproperstepsandtechniques,then
youmustexecutethemproperly.

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#11

07022011, 10:46AM
HarveyPascoe

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Justasidenotehere,going1:3ontheshellacratioposesamuchlongerdelayindryingunless
youhaveexcellentdryingconditionslikeputtingtheworkoutinhotsun,soIkickeditbackto
1:4andthatbroughtdrytimedowntoabout15minutes.Intheshopw/osunlight,itwasmore
likeanhour,whichdefeatsthepurposeofspeed.

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#12

07022011, 11:06AM
HowardAcheson
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OriginallyPostedbyHarveyRabbett

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Justasidenotehere,going1:3ontheshellacratioposesamuchlongerdelayindryingunlessyou
haveexcellentdryingconditionslikeputtingtheworkoutinhotsun,soIkickeditbackto1:4and
thatbroughtdrytimedowntoabout15minutes.Intheshopw/osunlight,itwasmorelikean
hour,whichdefeatsthepurposeofspeed.

Puttingitoutinthesunprobablyhadlittletodowiththespeedof"drying".Shellacdriesasthe
alcoholevaporates.Temperatureorsunlighthaslittletodowithit.But,puttingitoutdoors
probablyexposedittosomesortofbreeze.Airmovementwillacceleratetheevaporation
process.But,sowouldplacingafantocreateairmovementoverthepanel.

Howie.........

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#13

07022011, 12:03PM
HarveyPascoe

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Yeah,therewasagoodbreezebutIalsohaveceilingfansintheshopandthatdidn'tseemto
helpmuch.AllIcansayisthatthesunappearedtospeeditup,butthereisalsotheriskofit
gettingtoohotandblistering,thathappensoccasionallywhenI'mnotpayingattention.The
solventthengassifiestoofastanddoesnotescapethrutheouterfilmofdriedfinishofany
kind.

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#14

07022011, 1:34PM
PrashunPatel
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Sunlighthasnothingtodowithevaporation.Sunheatdoes.Soputtingitoutsideinthehotsun
willcertainlyspeedtheevaporation.However,itwill(andIsaythisfrommodestexperience)
heatthesurfacemost,whichwillcauseprematuredryingofthetoplayer,whichcanimpede
theunderlyingfinishfromdryingefficiently.Thismaycausesubsequentcoatstoremainsoftor
theoverallsurfacetoremainsoft.
Evenshellacmayappeartobedry,butshouldreallybegivengoodtimetodrythruandthru.
WhenI'mapplyingshellac,Ionlydoseveralcoatswithinthehouriftheyareverythincuts.But
ifyrscheduleworksforyou,powertoyou!

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#15

07022011, 4:34PM
AnneSchmidt
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Thanksall...timelysubjectasIamNOWtryingtofilloakwithwaterbasedpaste
filler(famowood)andnotlikingthesedarkspotsorthelengthoftimeittooktopigmentittothe
colorIwanted,esp.givenhowitchangescolorsbothafteritdrysandafterit'scoated!!!
(shellacmethodmakescolormatchingunnecessary.
So,Imaytrythisshellacmethod(Iloveshellac).
Noteonsurfacetension:alcoholdoesseemtorelaxsurfacetensionIhavenoticedthatwhen
justacoupleofdropsofalcoholareaddedtoawatercloggedear,thewholeshebangwater
plusalcoholdropsrightout.Thanksforbringingthisconceptintothewoodfinsihingworld.
Surfacetension,morethanviscosity,mightalsoplayaroleinwhetherornotonematerialwantsto
filltheporeorcoalescearoundtherim

AnneSchmidt
LasteditedbyAnneSchmidt07022011at4:40PM.

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