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UNITED STATES TAX COURT - TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)

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EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA. AND JOHN MCCLAIN

COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

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February 13th 2017

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Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, R
obert S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Sa

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lkin Rettig Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of
Hoffman Sabban & Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump &
Aldisert LLP. ae
The
IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan Mus
en and Laura Mullin.
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--------------------------------------------
ZIA MODABBER
MJs old attorney sued by MJ
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ZIA MODABBER sworn in,

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Court Clerk: And if you'll please state your name and address for the record.

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A. Zia Modabber. .

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Weltzman.

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Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

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DIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Weitzman:
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Q. Mr. Modabber, what's your occupation?

A. I'm an attorney.
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Q. And where are you working?

A. I work at a law firm, Katten Muchin Rosenman, in our Century City Office.
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Q. Can you give us a brief summary of your educational background through law school?
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A. Yes. I was born and raised here in Los Angeles. I went to high school at Taft in the Valley. I
went to UC Berkeley undergrad. I then took about a year off and went to law school down the
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street at Loyola Law School.

Q. And after law school, where did you work first?

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A. I joined a law firm that no longer exists. It was called Wyman Bautzer Kuchel and Silbert.

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Q. And now you're with?

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A. Now I'm with Katten. In about 1991, Wyman folded Katten, which is based in Chicago. I
was looking for a Los Angeles office. Essentially, Wyman became the Los Angeles office for
Katten in 1991. I've been there ever since.

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Q. And do you have especially .... a specialty or an area that you practice primarily in ....

lJa
A. I do.

Q. .... in the practice of law?

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A. I do.
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Q. What is that?
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A. I'm a litigator. And most of my litigation's in the music industry, in and around the music
industry .... some motion picture and television work, some transactional work. But by and large,
it's music industry-related litigation.

Q. And when you first began working with Wyman Bautzer, did you work with any
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recognizable .... I don't want to use the word celebrities .... performers in the entertainment
business?
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A. That was a long time ago. I suspect that I did. I recall .... boy, I think we had .... I .... the
answer's yes. I'm not sure. Do you want me to name them, the ones that I recall back then?
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Q. If you can remember any of the names.

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A. I think ....

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Q. I know you're getting old, but

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A. Yeah, I think I recall doing some work for maybe Mike Tyson. I think that the owners of a
jean company called Jordache was a client of ours that I worked on for a while. Those are the
ones that I recall from the late '80s ....

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Q. Okay.

lJa
A. .... early '90s.

Q. And what lawyer did you work with on those matters? I just want to get this upfront.
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A. All right. It was a gentleman named Howard Weltzman.
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Q. Okay. And after the transition to Katten by Wyman Bautzer, did you work on any accounts
for names we might recognize?
mM

A. Yes. From 1991 up through .... what period of time?

Q. 1995.
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A. Okay. Well, I began representing and working for Michael Jackson in late 1993. I did work
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for Chevy Chase back then. I did work for whatever. I did a little bit of work for a gentleman
named O.J. Simpson a number of years earlier.
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Q. And those are cases you and I worked on together, correct?

A. They are.
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Q. Okay. And you currently, by the way, represent the estate of Michael Jackson?

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A. I do.

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Q. So in or about 1993, '94, did you start working with Michael Jackson?

A. I did.

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Q. And do you remember what matters you worked on?

lJa
A. I do. In late 1993, Michael was accused by a boy named Jordan Chandler of child
molestation. I did not work on that. But shortly after that, there was a flood of lawsuits that
seemed to come in a fairly regular basis. Most of them .... almost all of them were civil
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lawsuits .... former employees who claimed .... they were fired because of, you know, one reason
or another. Everybody seem to be coming out of the woodwork to capitalize on somebody who
was in some distress at the time. I worked on all of those lawsuits. There was also another one by
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a producer named Smith-Hemion.

A. show was to be produced and Michael didn't appear at the show, and the producers sued
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Michael for all the losses in production even though he really wasn't part of the production.

Q. And ....

A. We represented him on that as well.

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Q. And at some point, did you become the primary litigator for Mr. Jackson?

A. I did.
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Q. And when did that take place .... or how did that take place?
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A. That took place in around the middle of 1995. How it took place was that you, Mr.
Weltzman, left the practice of law and went to run Universal. I had been working on both

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Michael Jackson's matters as well as a number of your other clients. I had been doing the day-to-
day work for those clients. I wanted .... I was new at my career. I wanted to continue representing
those clients, so I made some phone calls to his other professional advisors at the time and asked
if they would consider keeping me on. They all agreed that I could so long as it was okay with

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Michael. I then called Michael's assistant, asked if I could meet with him to talk about your, Mr.
Weltzman's, departure and my desire to stay on and handle all these matters for him.

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Q. Did you speak to Mr. Branca as well?

lJa
A. I did. I called .... John was probably the first person I called. He was Michael's principal
lawyer and had been for many, many years. I called and met with John who told me that he
was .... he would be happy with me staying on.
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Mr. Musen: Objection. Hearsay.
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Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:
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A. And as a result of Mr. Branca and his blessing and his encouragement that I needed to go
talk to Michael directly, I did go meet with Michael directly. Spent an hour and a half talking
nothing about the law, and at the end of the meeting he told me he was happy to have me stay on.

Q. And did that meeting happen in Los Angeles or someplace else?

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Te

A. No, it took place in New York, very top floor of the Four Seasons Hotel. It's not a meeting I
will ever forget.
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Q. Can you .... was that in, I'm sorry, 1995?

A. It was in 1995.
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Q. And do you recall the meeting?

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A. Do I recall it?

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Q. Yes.

A. I do.

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Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the meeting?

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A. Sure. It was arranged pretty quickly. Frankly, I was surprised that he was willing to see me
so quickly. I flew out, went up to the very top floor. He invited me in, and he wanted to talk
about really just life and the world. He wanted to know where I grew up, what I thought of the
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entertainment business, asked .... we talked about religion and my background and where I came
from and a whole lot of things other than the law. And after, like I said, it probably lasted an
hour, an hour and a half and it was all really about personal stuff, and I think he just .... it was
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just about a connection for him. At the end of the meeting, as I said, he agreed to keep me on.

Q. So you began representing Mr. Jackson in a number of litigation matters.

mM

A. I did. I had a number that were already going on. I continued with those, and as new matters
would come in, we got involved with those. We also began to get involved .... meet with some of
my partners who were corporate tax partners, in supporting Mr. Branca's work in putting together
for example, Sony/ATV. We did the corporate work for that transaction and also provided
corporate and other legal services related to loans that we were refinancing. Every couple of
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years it seemed we would have to go through another refinancing.

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Q. Let me just stop you for a moment. Could you describe Michael's financial situation in that
time period, that is in '94, '95 through the early 2000s?
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A. Yeah, I would describe it as he did not have cash or money, but he had access to it mostly in
the form of loans. There was a period of time when he toured, and I think that would've been
later in 1995, right around there ....

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Q. Was that the HIStory tour?

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A. .... he put out an album called HIStory. Sorry.

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Q. Was that the HIStory tour?

A. Yeah, I think that's what it would've been called. And he toured for a period of time. That

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provided some relief, but generally there was what I understood to be, to phrase it, a burn rate.
More money was being spent than money was coming in, and it required repeated refinancings
of his assets including his publishing catalog, both his own and Sony/ATV and drawing more and
more money from those assets and the equity out of those assets.
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Q. And do you recall whether or not during that time period Mr. Jackson had any endorsements
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or name and likeness deals?

A. He did not. What he had, from memory, was there was a, what I would call, fairly standard
merchandising arrangement for a recording artist where if you toured you would sell t-shirts or
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maybe they would sell them at retail as well. That agreement, there was not really any activity
around that, but as far as sponsorships and name and likeness licenses and .... no, there were no
opportunities available.

Q. And have you represented other talent or individuals with respect to name and likeness and
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endorsement deals?
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A. Not so much in the transactional part, but yes, I have. From time to time I've done the deals.
I certainly have gotten involved in them from a litigation perspective, and I have clients who,
with their other professionals, have those deals and I will ....
w.

Q. Like who?
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A. .... be involved.

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Q. Can you tell us some of the people you represented?

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A. I can tell you some of them.

Q. Okay.

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A. I'm comfortable .... so Michael. I've represented Stevie Wonder. I represented Aerosmith

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over the years.

Q. Is that Steven Tyler? ae

A. Steven Tyler and the band Aerosmith, Lance Armstrong, Nine Inch Nails and Trent Reznor.
I'm trying to think. I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody ....
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Q. That's all right.

mM

A. .... who will be upset if anybody ever reads this transcript.

Q. So Lance Armstrong, when you represented him, did he have endorsements and/or name and
likeness deals?
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A. He did. Yes, he did.

Te

Q. And did anything in particular happen in regards to Lance Armstrong and his ability to
continue to have those type of revenue streams?
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A. Yes. I'm not sure I formally represented him, but I've known Lance for a while. I'm not sure I
formally represented him, but when he went on the Oprah Winfrey show and admitted publicly
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that he had used performance-enhancing drugs during all of his Tours de France, I believe that
within 48 to 72 hours every single one of his sponsor terminated the arrangements. And I believe
that we are talking nine figures, in other words, north of $100 million that went away almost

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overnight from Nike to Michelob to all the nutritional supplements that .... you know, Oakley, all
the bike gear, clothing, all of that went away overnight and unfortunately, to this day has not
returned.

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Q. So segueing back to Michael Jackson for a moment, during the period that you represented
him, do you recall whether or not he had any endorsement deals during that time period?

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A. I recall that he had none to the best of my memory.

lJa
Q. And is it .... was it the same with name and likeness?

A. I .... yes. Other than the Sony Signatures merchandising agreement that I referred to earlier, I
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do not .... now, there were efforts, but as far as one actually being in place, I do not recall any
others that were ever in place.
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Q. Well, by efforts, what do you mean?

A. So during the period of time .... I'm sure beginning back in 1993 although I wasn't .... I didn't
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become as aware of it that early. But by 1995 and 1996, when I was involved at least around
these things, opportunities would come up. But more and more these were opportunities that
were .... they were smoke and mirrors. They were from people that nobody had ever heard of,
that we could never vet that had no track record of any success in anywhere and yet they would
come and promise the world, and I would be asked to get on a plane and fly to Hawaii and meet
somebody to talk about a theme park somewhere or .... one thing or another that never panned
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out.
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Q. What .... theme parks?

w.

A. Theme parks, other types of themed attractions, yes. I remember several of those.
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Q. And are you referring to opportunities or alleged opportunities, supposed opportunities to
use Mr. Jackson's name and likeness for theme parks or resorts or hotels, things like that?

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A. Yes.

Q. And none of those turned out to be real?

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A. No, none of them turned out to be real, and the ones that we actually .... the ones that we

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actually went down the road a little bit and indulged and see whether we could find something
that would be successful wound up turning into a bigger mess than we had ever started off with.
And I'm thinking of a couple in particular.

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Q. And did you ever ask any of these people why they would make those offers or
representations to Mr. Jackson when they weren't real?
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A. I didn't have to ask them. Candidly, my radar went off in meeting them and learning about
who they were and where they came from and really not having any kind of track record. I was,
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from the very beginning, suspicious and skeptical and very protective, as protective as I could be.

Q. So the Sony Signatures merchandise deal you referred to, was there anything unusual about
how that ended?
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A. I believe it ended with was Sony having advanced .... Sony Signatures having advanced
money that it had not been able to recoup. In other words, you know, if anybody .... everybody
understands it.
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Q. But ....
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A. Advances given ....

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Q. You have to tell us.

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A. Okay. General proposition, an advance will be given to an artist, and it's an advance against
the royalties when shirts or things are sold. So let's say I give .... the advance is $1 million and I
have a royalty rate of X percent, if I sell enough shirts they'll recoup the million dollars to pay

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themselves back first for the advance and then once the advance is recouped I'll then begin to get
royalties after that. Sony Signatures .... I believe when it ended Sony Signatures had not
recouped its advance and in order to get out of the deal I believe we had to .... somebody had to
write a check to buy them out of the deal so that he would at least have the rights back to have an

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opportunity to do something with those rights later.

Q. Was Sony Signatures a tour sponsorship deal with respect to the Dangerous tour?

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Mr. Musen: Leading.

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Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
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Q. What was the Sony Signature merchandise deal? What did it deal with?
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A. From memory, it dealt with Sony Signatures had the exclusive right to sell branded, Michael
Jackson branded, using his name and likeness, merchandise, could be at a tour, could be at retail,
could be wherever they thought it might make sense to do it. And that agreement lasted for a
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period of years where they have the exclusive rights, and I've explained how it ended.

Q. When the Chandler allegations arose, do you recall if Michael was on tour or not?

A. He was on tour.
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Q. Do remember the name of the tour?

A. I do. It was the Dangerous tour.

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Q. And did you recall whether there was a tour sponsor for the Dangerous tour?
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A. I do not recall a tour sponsor for the Dangerous tour.

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Q. All right. And were you representing Michael Jackson when the HIStory tour took place?

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A. I was.

Q. Do you recall whether the HIStory tour had a sponsor?

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A. To my memory there was no tour sponsor for the HIStory tour.

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Q. And you also got to know Michael a bit personally during that time period, correct?

A. I did.
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ich
Q. Were there issues with substance abuse that you had to deal with?

A. Yes, there were.

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Q. How would you, in kind of a soft or broader form, describe that situation?

A. I don't know that there is a soft way to say it. Michael had a serious problem with an
addiction to painkillers and other medications.
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Q. And so he had those issues. And did you deal with those on occasion?

A. I did.
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Q. Okay. So as the late '90s and 2000s came, you were still representing Mr. Jackson. But can
you give us some insight into his financial situation in the late '90s, early 2000s?
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A. Okay. There was a period of time, I want to say was about a year and a half in the late '90s to
around 2000, when I really wasn't doing anything for or with Michael. But up until .... to get

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back to your question of his financial situation .... up until the mid to late 1998 period .... that's a
date I remember .... he was .... all of his income, from memory, from all of his royalties, whether
it be record royalties from the sale of records or publishing royalties from the exploitation of
songs that he had written, all of those assets had been pledged as collateral for loans and all of

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the income that came in from those assets was going directly to the lenders to repay the interest
and, to the extent there was some principal paid down, the principal on the loan as well.

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Q. So to the best of your knowledge how was Mr. Jackson earning money to pay his bills?

lJa
A. How was he earning money? After the HIStory tour he did put out a record called Blood on
the Dance Floor. From memory, I believe there would've been an advance that would've been
paid to him. I'm not sure whether .... we were in constant dialogue and tension with his lender
frankly, the bank, who a lot of control and a lot of say and paid a lot of attention to the money
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that was coming in and where it was going. And there was little to no money frankly that
Michael had for himself kind of to do what he wanted with which led to some of the things that
he asked me to do for him to try to figure out ways to generate money.
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Q. What kind of things did he ask you to do for him?

mM

A. Well, the one that .... the biggest one that comes to mind is this .... he had gone to Japan and
he had decided that he was going to make his head of security at the time one of his business
advisors. And they had met somebody who I later learned out to be affiliated with the Japanese
Mafia known as the Yakuza. The guy ....
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Q. Are you talking about Wayne Nagin by the way?

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A. I am talking about Wayne Nagin. He was a security guard.

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Q. Correct.
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A. And Michael had met this gentleman Mr. Matsuura who had promised him all kinds of
money and wanted to do .... he wanted to buy Neverland Ranch. He wanted to create toy stores
in Japan and perhaps around Asia, themed toy stores, using Michael's name and likeness. I think

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there was talk about maybe doing a concert or two, a show or two, and perhaps a theme park, all
of this together with tens of millions of dollars. I had a number of conversations both with
Wayne Nagin and with Michael about my view of whether or not this was real.

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Q. What was your view?

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A. I viewed that it was not real and that these were not credible people and that we should not
do it. I lost that discussion.

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Q. When you say "lost," you mean you told Mr. Jackson how you felt.

Mr. Musen: Objection, leading.

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Mr. Weitzman: Sorry.
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Judge Holmes: Overruled.

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Mr. Weitzman:

A. Well ....

Q. You told Mr. Jackson how you felt, and you received instructions to go forward.
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Te

A. Yes. In short form, yes.

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Q. And what did you do?

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A. I originally .... what I did first was convince them that at least let's see if these are real people
and let's see if they conduct themselves like business people that we would expect to see at this
level. I said let me find out who their lawyer is. Let me talk to their lawyer, and let's prepare real

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legal documents that grant them particular rights that lay particular obligations on them to
perform. We prepared those documents, sent them over. They never had a lawyer. They wouldn't
sign the documents that .... or even comment on the documents that we gave them, and they sent
back a couple of documents that were, apart from just the things getting lost in translation

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because English was not their first language, they were abysmal. I was instructed to basically
figure out a way to make those documents signable by me and protect me as best you can. I want
to go forward and pursue this. I did that. There was a deposit that was required to be made, a 10

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percent deposit. They actually made the deposit which frankly, surprised me. But shortly after
that, the real money never showed up by the end of the year, and a year and a half .... the next
year and a half I wasn't really involved with him, but nothing happened on that deal until many,
many years later, and I don't know if you want me to get into .... after he died it sort of

lJa
resurfaced.

Q. I'm sorry. After Michael died something surfaced about that?

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A. Yes.
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Q. Could you just ....

mM

A. So as I said, the ....

Q. .... just give us a brief summary? What occurred after he died?

A. After he died, I had mentioned that we had received a 10 percent deposit on this transaction
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and then it just disappeared. This was in 1998. Michael died in June of 2009. Ten years went by
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and I got a phone call from somebody, a gentleman named Mr. Hara, claiming that the deposit
that we had received was actually his money and that he had given it to Mr. Matsuura. Mr.
Matsuura was a criminal who was now trying to illegally exploit Michael's name and likeness in
Japan. It was causing problems for Bravado in Japan, and I was asked to kind of deal with that
w.

situation. Mr. Hara delivered to me what turned out to be a forged document by Mr. Matsuura
where Mr. Matsuura was supposedly giving name and likeness rights to people in Japan. We filed
a lawsuit and stopped that. Then as it turns out, Mr. Hara himself decided to forge my name on a
license and was issuing licenses for Michael's name and likeness in ....
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Q. So ....

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A. .... Japan and elsewhere.

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Q. All right. Post death.

A. Post death.

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Q. So this was .... would this be considered a cloud on title?

lJa
A. This would be considered a cloud on title
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Q. And did the estate file a lawsuit to protect its rights?
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A. We did in Japan first against Mr. Matsuura. We won that and then against Mr. Hara and we
won that.

Q. When you say "we won," we prevailed in both litigations.

mM

A. Prevailed in both litigations.

Q. And protected whatever there was, and that's not a pejorative, protected Michael's name and
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likeness.
Te

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Okay.

A. They no longer claim to have any rights to licenses, name, and likeness.
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Q. Did we get an award of legal fees?

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A. We did not.

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Q. Okay. But we .... it cost us legal fees to prosecute the action, correct?

A. It did.

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Q. Okay. So now going back to the late '90s, there was a time when you didn't represent Mr.

lJa
Jackson you said.

A. Yes, about a year and a half, if I remember right.

ae
Q. And then did you begin representing him again?
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A. I did.

Q. And when did the representation resume?

mM

A. Roughly 2000.

Q. Mostly litigation matters or all litigation matters?

a
Te

A. Yes. I'm sure it started that .... I can't recall what other things we may have done. We
probably got involved in some financings after that as well. In fact, I suspect we did. I think I
worked with Mr. Branca on some of the issues that were going on with Sony Music and some of
the deals that we were doing there, some of the activity there.
w.

Q. Was there a litigation in 2001 involving a canceled concert?

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A. Yes.

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Mr. Musen: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Was it ....

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Judge Holmes: The answer is stricken, but let's see.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Was there any litigation that you .... well, what was the litigation you were involved in when
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you began representing Mr. Jackson again in 2000?

A. The two that I recall was he had been sued by a promoter named Marcel Avram. Michael,
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during the time that I was not representing him, was represented by .... he had a manager named
Myung-Ho Lee in a law firm out of Atlanta. Somehow they had .... an agreement was put
together for Michael to perform two shows on millennium. He was going to play a show at
midnight in Sydney, Australia, bring in the millennium, hop on a plane, fly to Hawaii, and bring
mM

in the millennium in Hawaii over the International Date Line. He didn't appear at those shows.
Mr. Avram sued him and lengthy litigation followed.

Q. Did Mr. Jackson get an advance for those appearances?

a

A. I don't know if he got an advance. He may have. I didn't put those together. I would have to
Te

look at the agreement to see whether or not it called for an advance.

Q. And the litigation was lost at jury trial.

w.

A. It was.
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Q. Where did the jury trial take place?

n.c
A. Santa Maria, California.

Q. Anything unusual that you recall occurred during that litigation?

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A. Yes.

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Q. Pardon me, during that lawsuit.

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember the year that that lawsuit took place?
ae
A. I want to .... my estimate would be 2002. That's when the trial was, 2002 ....
ich

Q. When the trial ....

A. .... 2003.
mM

Q. Okay.

A. It had started before that, well before that.

a
Te

Q. And during that time period, what was Michael Jackson's financial situation?

A. When we got back involved, we had inherited a mess from the manager Myung-Ho Lee.
w.

Money had gone missing and unaccounted for. In fact, a business manager that we had hired
while I was still representing him had resigned because Mr. Lee was taking money and putting it
in places that the business manager didn't know about. They were uncomfortable and resigned.
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He was again living off .... basically living off his loans, his ability to borrow money against his
assets.

n.c
Q. And who was he borrowing from?

A. He was borrowing from .... I think the bank would've been Bank of America at the time. It

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had changed from Nations Bank to Bank of America I believe. It was the same banker, but I
think that was the name of the institution.

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Q. And were you involved in any of the loan transactions?

lJa
A. I was.

Q. Anything unusual about the transactions that you recall?

ae
A. Unusual? We just kept borrowing more and more. The amount of the loan would go ....
ich

Q. What was the collateral for the loans?

mM

A. The collateral for the loan was all of Michael's Sony/ATV interest in Sony/ATV, his 50
percent interest, his interest in MIJAC, which is the catalog for the entity that holds his own
compositions, his own publishing. I believe at some point the ranch became collateral. That was
later but almost anything and everything that he had that I can think of of any real value.

Q. And this was as the .... as and during the lawsuit with the promoter, Mr. Avram? Is that his
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name?
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A. Yes, Mr. Avram.

w.

Q. And so can you tell us what was unusual about that lawsuit in particular, or were there some
unusual circumstances that took place?
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A. There were. Michael had been sued for not appearing at two concerts. Because of who he
was, we had made arrangements for him to testify on a specific day at a specific time so that he
could have a police escort directly to the courthouse, walk in the side without a giant fanfare to

n.c
the extent we could, take the stand, testify in sort of an orderly time and place.

Q. By the way, was there press coverage, intensive press coverage of all this?

so
A. There was intensive press coverage of all this.

ck
Q. Okay go ahead. Sorry. What happened that was unusual besides that, which is unusual?

lJa
A. So we had prepared Michael the night before and left after dinner planning to meet at the
hotel to .... for the police to escort us into the court. Michael appeared. He came to the place
where we were supposed to meet at the hotel and was unable to get out of the van and could not
testify that morning. He could not go to court.
ae
Q. So what happened with respect to the trial?
ich

A. We did what we could to minimize any publicity about the reasons that he couldn't testify
and why. We asked for time for him to feel better and so he could testify truthfully and under
oath. We did what we could to get him through it for a couple of days. That's what we did.
mM

Q. Did you learn what the problem was that caused him to not be able to testify?

A. I knew what the problem was, and yes.

a
Te

Q. What was the problem?

A. The problem was he had overdosed. He had overdosed on painkillers.

w.

Q. Did that have an impact on his image?

ww
 om
A. It was ....

n.c
Mr. Musen: Objection. Speculation.

Judge Holmes: What are your foundations?

so
Zia Modabber: If I can help I could give a ....

ck
Judge Holmes: Oh, he can lay a foundation.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Was there press coverage during that time period?
ae
A. There was a lot of press coverage during that time period, and the judge had authorized
cameras in the courtroom during trial proceedings. And the day that Michael was supposed to be
there it was slammed packed.
ich

Q. Okay. And was the atmosphere in the courtroom chaotic when it turned out he couldn't
appear?
mM

A. Yes, although we never made it to the courthouse, you know, while .... I don't know when we
gave the news to the judge what happened, but the press coverage certainly was after and we
obviously watched the news later in the day. There was a lot of news about what had happened, a
lot of speculation about what had happened. The lawyers on the other side were screaming up
and down that .... you know, trying to take advantage of it for their own purposes.
a
Te

Q. Now you were in a jury trial, correct?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. And did you have a concern about Mr. Jackson's credibility and image and profile to the
jurors?
ww
 om
A. A very large one.

n.c
Q. And what was your concern?

so
A. He had no-showed at a lawsuit where he was being sued for no-showing at a concert, to
begin with.

ck
Q. So did you believe the incident would have an impact on his image to the jury?

lJa
A. I did.

Q. Anything else unusual happen during that lawsuit?

ae
A. A couple of things. Michael actually was able to .... when I say able, barely able to testify
during the proceedings. He was not always able to focus clearly. At some point the judge would
ich
have to interrupt and help him. We had to take a lot of recesses. His presentation was ....

Q. Underwhelming.
mM

A. Putting it mildly. Then after .... apart from his own testimony and his ability to sort of
withstand cross-examination and defend himself, we then went to .... there was a hiatus in the
trial. I believe it was over the Thanksgiving holiday and Michael had .... there was a hiatus and
Michael had gone to Europe to, I think to receive an award. He had a new baby who had been
born ....
a
Te

Q. Blanket.

A. .... Michael had.

w.

Q. Was it Blanket?
ww
 om
A. It was Blanket.

n.c
Q. Okay.

so
A. He went to Germany and while we were in recess during the trial with the jury still
impaneled, there was breaking news that night that a bunch of fans had gathered down below his
hotel and were wanting to see Michael and/or Blanket. And Michael had taken Blanket and
wrapped him up and held him out a window several stories up off the balcony so that the fans

ck
below could see them. Press went bananas. I think Gloria Allred was screaming to have his kids
taken from him. It was a disaster. And we got back to the trial, and the judge now had to
interview every one of the jurors to see whether they could continue and whether it was biased.

lJa
That was that incident during the trial.

Q. So the lawsuit concluded?

ae
A. The lawsuit concluded. The jury .... during the deliberations a special prepared by a guy
named Martin Bashir, which was just a ....
ich

Q. Hatchet job?
mM

A. .... it was a trashing of Michael aired during deliberations the night .... during one of the
nights of deliberations.

Q. Were you involved in the prep .... the preparation of that documentary at all .... presentation,
rather, of that documentary?
a
Te

A. No, I did not even know about it or know .... until it aired I knew nothing of it.

Q. And did that documentary have an impact, as you saw it, on the jury?
w.

A. I don't know how it couldn't have.

ww
 om
Q. So how much longer after that lawsuit did you continue to represent Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. Well, we resigned in September of 2004, so I would say at the most a year.

so
Q. And were there any other incidents of moment after the Avram lawsuit that you were
involved with or that you experienced in representing Mr. Jackson?

ck
A. I'm sorry. Could you ask me that again?

lJa
Q. Yeah. Were there any other incidents of moment, anything unusual that took place after the
Avram lawsuit and before you stopped representing Mr. Jackson?

A. Yeah, after the lawsuit I got a call from Michael that the Santa Barbara Sheriffs had executed
ae
a search warrant on his ranch in Neverland Valley, and this was the beginning of the criminal
trial where the second accuser had accused him of child molestation.
ich

Q. And you all resign before the criminal trial took place?

A. We resigned from everything other than the criminal matter in September of 2004. We stayed
mM

in so there could be an orderly transition of the criminal matter. I didn't .... I wasn't personally
working on it. I was involved and paying attention, but we made sure that there was an orderly
transition that the lawyers who were going to handle the case were in place and rolling.

Q. And why did you resign?

a
Te

A. We resigned principally for nonpayment of fees and also because the people that were now
claiming to be in charge of Michael's life were people that were .... we were not comfortable
working with.
w.

Q. Okay. After Michael passed away, did you begin working with the estate of Michael Jackson
representing the executors?
ww
 om
A. I did.

n.c
Q. And in that capacity, did you get involved in litigation against the estate?

so
A. I did.

Q. And specifically did you get involved with litigation .... I mean, there's a lot of it, but did you

ck
get involved with some of the litigation that involved a name and likeness?

lJa
A. I did.

Q. And can you tell us about that litigation?

ae
A. Sure. So I mentioned the lawsuit we filed in Japan where Mr. Matsuura and then Mr. Hara
were claiming to have these rights and were licensing these rights. We initiated that litigation and
ich
worked with counsel in Japan to deal with those. And then there was a lawsuit that we filed
against a number of defendants that arose when those defendants created a website called
Michael Jackson's Secret Vault and claimed to own Michael's name and likeness rights along
with copyrights, certain copyrights, trademarks, and other assets that belong to the estate.
mM

Q. And that's the Howard Mann litigation?

A. Yes it is.
a

Q. And can you tell us about that litigation?

Te

A. Yes. We .... as I said, we found out about this website where they were offering for sale all
kinds of branded Michael Jackson things. They were selling shirts. They were selling calendars.
w.

They had taken copyrighted music and were using it on their website, copyrighted artwork and
using it on their website. The name of their website was Michael Jackson's Secret Vault. They
were giving the impression to anybody and everybody that this was the official place to go for
ww

Michael Jackson, almost anything.

 om
Q. So this litigation involved copyrights.

n.c
A. It involved copyrights.

so
Q. Did it involve trademarks?

A. It involved trademarks.

ck
Q. And what else did it involve? What was the cause of action?

lJa
A. The cause of action were, from memory, copyright infringement, trademark infringement
under the Lanham Act, and then another part of the Lanham Act which is not necessarily based
on the trademark, but it's a false association or a false sponsorship suggesting that you are the
ae
source of goods or services. A right of publicity claim under California statute, a Right of
Publicity Statute, Postmortem Right of Publicity Statute 3344.1, and probably some other related
claims.
ich

Q. And would you describe the actions of Mr. Mann and his co-conspirators as a cloud on title?
mM

A. It was not only a cloud on title, this one they actually claimed to own it.

Mr. Musen: Objection. Characterization, legal conclusion.

a

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Te

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Did you say ....

w.

Judge Holmes: Objection sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:Okay.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. Did you view Mr. Mann and his co- conspirator's conduct as a cloud on title?

Mr. Musen: Objection. Same.

so
Judge Holmes: Did you regard it as a fog on title?

ck
A. A very heavy fog.

lJa
Judge Holmes: There we go.

Judge Holmes: Almost cloudy in May .....?

ae
A. Right, almost. One could say a cloud.
ich

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And did that case ultimately get resolved?
mM

A. Yes, we .... yes, we prevailed.

Q. What was the resolution?

a

A. We prevailed.
Te

Q. Okay.
w.

Mr. Weitzman: Could you put up Exhibit 283-J please?

ww

Mr. Camp: Sure.

 om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. Do you recall this complaint?

A. I do.

so
Q. And is that the complaint that we filed in the Howard Mann litigation?

ck
A. Yes, it is.

lJa
Q. And when you say we won the case, this was in the District Court, correct?

A. It was.
ae
Q. In front of Judge Pregerson?
ich

A. It was.

Q. Now .... thank you. Have you sent out cease-and-desist letters on behalf of the estate?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. And the cease-and-desist letters were for what purpose?

a
Te

A. They are .... they were, you know, just to keep the asset claim. If you don't .... well, first of
all one of the jobs in music of the executors, their fiduciary duty is to find, preserve, and protect
the assets of the estate. Obviously all of these rights, rights that were being infringed potentially,
were impacting that and so it was our obligation to make sure that the estate took control of those
w.

and that if people were infringing, whether it was a copyright, a trademark, Michael's right of
publicity, we needed to make sure that we could stop those where we could. There's also a risk
that if you don't police those you could lose those rights.
ww
 om
Q. And did the cease-and-desist letters result in a favorable manner for the estate, for the most
part?

n.c
A. For the most part they did.

so
Q. What were some of the results, if you can describe with them in a summary fashion?

ck
A. I think most of the time we would send the letter and we would have a dialogue with
whoever the person was, and we would explain to them why what they were doing .... a lot of
times it was even innocent, you know, they just didn't know. We would explain what was going

lJa
on and they would agree to change it, and not use it. Sometimes it took a little more persuasion,
and we .... they .... we would get involved in the deal with lawyers on the other side and have to
convince them that they didn't have the rights to do what they wanted to do. I think on one
occasion we got a small settlement of some amount of money because a game was using his
ae
image in something. But for the most part it was letters and some phone calls and some follow-
up, and we got it taken care of.
ich
Q. And when it wasn't taken care of, is that when we filed litigations?

A. Yes.
mM

Q. Okay. By the way, have .... to the best of your knowledge, have any of the cease-and-desist
letters, or even the litigation, resulted in revenue to the estate?

A. Other than the one small settlement that I mentioned, no.

a
Te

Q. Okay. When a record company .... well, let me back .... have you been involved in
negotiating recording deals?
w.

A. I've been ....

ww

Q. Or part of a team that negotiates recording deals, let me phrase it differently.

 om
A. Yes, I've been around it. I can't say I'm .... I don't really negotiate record deals for others.

n.c
Q. Okay.

so
A. But I am certainly .... when there's litigation around them I'm involved in them, when there's
issues that come up about where the rights are, I get involved and asked to review them, yes.

ck
Q. Well, when we talk about name and likeness, what is your experience in what name and
likeness involves?

lJa
A. Name and likeness is a specific asset. MR. MUNSON: Objection, Your Honor. This is expert
testimony.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

ae
ich
Mr. Weitzman: He's been involved in ....

Judge Holmes: I overruled. He can answer Mr. Weltzman.

mM

A. Name and likeness is a sort of specific thing, that at least in California, and many states don't
recognize it, but California by statute provides that a famous person has the right to control the
commercial exploitation of their name and likeness. It is its own unique, distinct, separate, right.
These are the other intellectual property assets that people like recording artists generally have.
a

Mr. Weitzman:
Te

Q. Okay. And when you refer .... let me ask it differently. And in your experience have you
dealt with name and likeness assets?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
 om
Q. And what do those assets involve?

n.c
A. Generally it is a license from the person to .... it could be a sponsorship transaction where
you're promoting a product. It could also be just the right to put your name or a picture on a t-
shirt, and sell t-shirts. But I think of it as sort of like a merchant usually selling merchandise or
being a spokesperson or sponsoring of a product.

so
Q. In your experience, is name and likeness part of a recording agreement?

ck
A. No. It may be referred to in a recording agreement. Recording agreements are for the
creation and exploitation by the record company of recordings, music.

lJa
Q. Have you been involved in lawsuits on behalf of the estate against Tohme Tohme?

A. Yes.
ae
ich
Mr. Weitzman: One moment, Your Honor. Can we put up Exhibit 294-J?

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Are you familiar with Exhibit 294-J, which is on the screen?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. What is that complaint?

a
Te

A. It's the lawsuit Mr. Tohme filed against the estate.

Q. All right. And you're actively involved in participating in that litigation. Is that correct?
w.

A. Yes, I am.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman: Could we put up Exhibit 295- J please?

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Are you familiar with Exhibit 295?

so
A. Yeah, can I .... yes, I am. This looks like the answer to the .... yeah.

Q. And that would be the answer in litigation that Mr. Tohme filed against the estate?

ck
A. That's right.

lJa
Q. And you participated in filing the answer, correct?

A. Yes.
ae
ich
Mr. Weitzman: Could we put up Exhibit 296- J please?

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. All right. Are you familiar with this document, which is titled Cross-Complaint in the Tohme
mM

litigation?

A. Yes, I am.
a

Q. Did you participate in the drafting and filing of this Cross-Complaint?

Te

A. Yes, I did.
w.

Q. Are you involved in that litigation?

A. Yes, I am.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman: Could you put up Exhibit 297 please, 297-J.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. What is 297-J?

so
A. That is a petition that we filed against Tohme Tohme sort of a parallel proceeding. I think
these were filed the same day he filed his lawsuit against the estate and the same day we filed our

ck
petition against him, and this is that petition.

Q. By the way, all these lawsuits are still ongoing. Is that correct?

lJa
A. They are. ae
Q. And you have a great second chair in those .... that litigation.
ich
A. I do.

Q. Okay.
mM

Mr. Weitzman: Could you go to the next exhibit, I think it's 298-J.

Mr. Weitzman:
a

Q. What is this, sir?

Te

A. This is a Labor Commissioner Petition that was filed as an adjunct to the Tohme litigation.
Do you want me to explain it, or ....
w.

Q. Well you can ....

ww
 om
A. It's ....

n.c
Q. If you would, with Your Honor's permission, just explain what the controversy under the
Labor Code involved.

A. So one of the claims is that Tohme Tohme violated California's Labor Code by procuring

so
employment for an artist without being a licensed talent agent, in violation of California law. As
part of our claims against Tohme, and it was also a defense to claims that Tohme brings against
the estate, we brought a petition in front of the Labor Commissioner to have him determine .... he

ck
has jurisdiction over this initially .... to determine that Tohme, in fact, did violate the Talent
Agency Act.

lJa
Q. Okay. And what was the result of our allegation that he violated the Talent Agent Act.

A. The Labor Commissioner found that he violated the Talent Agency Act.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: Can you put up Exhibit 299- J?
ich

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And what is this?
mM

A. This looks like the answer that Tohme filed in response to our petition against him. So I
petitioned, I think it's just a Probate Court word for lawsuit. It's like a complaint.

Judge Holmes: I'm familiar with the term.

a
Te

A. Okay. Sorry. I wasn't. I'm sorry.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. Thank you.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman: One moment Mr. Modabber. Your Honor, may I approach?

n.c
Judge Holmes: You may.

Mr. Weitzman: We marked next in order, which I think is 652.

so
Court Clerk: Exhibit 652-P is marked for identification.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, just for the record, this document in the probate proceedings has
been secret.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Oh.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: We ask that it be sealed here?

Mr. Camp: All right. Are you going to try to admit this document? Okay. Then we don't object
ich
to ....

Ms. Herbert: No objection to ....

mM

Judge Holmes: Can we deal with all of that after he's done testifying?

Mr. Camp: Yes.

a

Ms. Herbert: Yes.

Te

Judge Holmes: Okay.

w.

Mr. Weitzman: Here you go, Your Honor.

ww
 om
Mr. Musen: Your Honor, if the estate is going to try to seal this document, we would have the
same objection that we had with the prior document, the ....

n.c
Judge Holmes: They haven't even moved to admit it ....

Mr. Musen: .... appraisal.

so
Judge Holmes: .... yet.

ck
Mr. Musen: So under the by Willie Nelson.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Okay. What's the number, Ms. Wood?
ae
Ms. Cohen: Your Honor, I just want to say for the record that we are required under California
law to ask that it be sealed because the California Rules of Court 2.550 and 2.551 provide that if
the Court has ordered a document sealed, it may not be publicly filed.
ich

Judge Holmes: What's the document exhibit number again, Ms. Wood?
mM

Court Clerk: 652-P.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead Mr. Weltzman.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

a
Te

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Modabber, are you familiar with that document?
w.

A. I ....
ww
 om
Q. You don't have it?

n.c
A. I do not. Now I do.

Q. I can help you.

so
Mr. Camp: It's on the screen now.

ck
A. Okay. I need one second.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Just take a look at it, and see what it is.

A. Okay. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

ae
ich
Q. Is that a document that you're familiar with?

A. It is.
mM

Q. And did you receive a copy of that document?

A. Yes.
a

Q. Okay.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: Can we go back for a moment, Your Honor, to the Matsurra case .... Mr.
Modabber, in Japan.
w.

A. Okay.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. That involved a number of different legal issues, didn't it, that is claims?

n.c
A. Yes.

so
Q. Do you remember the claims, or can you tell us what those claims involved, kind of?

A. I can. They were .... Japanese law is what covered it. I believe in Japan there is not a clear

ck
recognition of publicity rights after somebody dies, so I believe that the claims were related ....
the claim was to invalidate and void the .... what turned out to be a forged license of name and
likeness rights to Mr. Matsurra. And I think he had .... there were some trademarks that were

lJa
being used and he was enjoined and stopped from using any of that.

Mr. Musen: Your Honor, we've never seen this document before. It was never exchanged to us.
ae
Ms. Cohen: It's in the big huge thing you got from Mr. Zumir ...... It's part of that.
ich

Mr. Camp: I believe those documents only go through 2010, or 2011, and I believe this
document is dated 2012.
mM

Judge Holmes: Mr. Weltzman, speak for your client.

Mr. Weitzman: Well, the one thing you can take to the bank is I'm not familiar with all those
documents. And that is a time and what was produced.
a

Mr. Musen: It's a violation of the Court order, I would ask that it be excluded.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: So you .... there's others here who are familiar with it, if I can have a moment to
ask, Your Honor.
w.

Judge Holmes: Do consult with them, please. We have an objection that it wasn't turned over
by the deadline.
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Yes?

so
Mr. Weitzman: I don't have any further questions, and I would ask that you take Counsel's
motion under submission and then we'll check. There were thousands of pages provided. We
believe it was provided. If we're wrong, then we are wrong.

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay.

lJa
Mr. Camp: I may be able to answer this actually quickly. What's the date?

Ms. Herbert: 2/17/2012.

ae
Mr. Weitzman: That's very impressive, Mr. Camp, by the way.
ich

Mr. Camp: It's hard to keep up with ....

mM

Mr. Weitzman: I understand.

Mr. Camp: Can we go off the ....

a

Judge Holmes: Off the record.

Te

Mr. Musen: Your Honor ....

w.

Judge Holmes: Hold on. We're off the record.

RECESS..
ww
 om
Court Clerk: Court is in session.

n.c
Judge Holmes: All right. Please be seated. Any luck with the documents?

Mr. Camp: No, Your Honor. I misspoke in thinking that I could find it quickly.

so
Judge Holmes: Oh.

ck
Mr. Camp: I would just like to reserve an objection and we'll look .... I'll look for it tonight.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: No objection.

Judge Holmes: Remind me, Ms. Wood, tomorrow before we began that I need to deal with that
one.
ae
Mr. Camp: 652-P I believe, correct?
ich

Court Clerk: Yes.

mM

Judge Holmes: There we go. Mr. Musen.

Mr. Musen: Okay.

a

Judge Holmes: I believe you have a witness before we go ......

Te

Mr. Musen: Great.

w.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. Musen:
ww
 om
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Modabber.

n.c
A. Good afternoon, yes.

Q. In the Howard Mann lawsuit, the estate received an award of around $2 million.

so
A. We did not receive any money, no. There was a settlement where they were supposed to pay
it but ....

ck
Q. Was that at around $2 million in the settlement?

lJa
A. I think it was a little less, but it doesn't .... it's in that range.
ae
Q. In that range. Okay. You testified earlier today that you sent out cease-and-desist letters. You
were not the only attorney for the estate to do that.
ich
A. No. I'm not, depending on the time period, no.

Q. There are a number of attorneys now doing that, like Mr. Chieffo, for example.
mM

A. He's the only one .... that firm would be the only other firm that I'm aware of that would be
doing it, besides me.

Q. Okay.
a
Te

A. Or Mr. Weltzman's firm.

Q. Mr. .... okay, that's fair. Mr. Weltzman does he .... he sent out cease-and-desist letters.
w.

A. Our offices work pretty closely together on them, yes.

ww
 om
Q. Okay. So we have at least a trifecta. Is that a yes?

n.c
A. I don't know what that means, a trifecta. There are three law firms ....

so
Q. Okay.

A. If that's a tri .... that send the letters.

ck
Q. Okay. In that Tohme Tohme lawsuit with the California Labor Commissioner .... I think .... I

lJa
believe that, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the Commissioner determined that yes, he was not
a licensed talent agent.

A. He determined he was not licensed and he had violated the Act by engaging in the
procurement of employment.
ae
ich
Q. But .... Okay. But the Commissioner also determined that he did perform valuable work.

A. I think so.
mM

Q. And that he was awarded a commission of 7.5 percent?

A. I think he split his commission and told him he would only get half of his commission was
the Labor Commissioner's ....
a
Te

Q. Okay. Thank you. I think you testified earlier that the estate has a duty to find, preserve, and
protect assets of the estate.
w.

A. Preserve and protect, find, I think they probably need some .... to make sure you're paying
attention, yes.
ww
 om
Q. Okay. And part of that duty is not to squander money on useless endeavors.

n.c
A. I think that's a fair statement.

Q. So why would the estate spend all this money to protect an asset that it's worth $2100?

so
A. Well, I don't know what .... I don't know about the valuation, so I'll leave that part of it out.
But I can tell you why we preserved those assets. Maybe today, maybe five years from now

ck
maybe 15 years from now, you don't know what opportunities can arise, but you better have done
.... taken reasonable steps to make sure that you have protected those assets in the event that they
do become exploitable.

lJa
Q. Okay. Thank you. No ....

A. And ....
ae
ich
Q. Yeah?

A. I was just going to say, and again, when there are clouds on that, you will never be able to do
anything with it if you have eight people claiming they own it or if you actually gave them away
mM

because you didn't protect them.

Q. Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Musen: No further questions.

a
Te

Judge Holmes: Any follow-up, Mr. Weltzman?

w.

Mr. Weitzman: Yeah.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. On the Howard Mann litigation, to the best of your knowledge, the estate has not received a
dollar of the money awarded. Is that correct?

A. To the best of my knowledge, we have not received a dollar. No.

so
Q. And that award is subject to appeal. Is that correct?

ck
A. I believe so.

lJa
Q. And is it fair to say that both parties are appealing?

A. We're talking about the ....

ae
Q. The Labor Commission.
ich

A. .... Labor Commissioner.

mM

Q. Yes.

A. Yes. That's what I thought you .... I understood. Yes, both sides are appealing.
a

Q. And the 7.5 percent that Mr. Musen was referring to that the Labor Commissioner found Mr.
Tohme may be entitled to, do you recall what that involved?
Te

A. Do I recall how he got there?

w.

Q. Yeah.
ww
 om
A. I think he just split it and said I'm going to give you half.

n.c
Q. Okay.

A. I don't think he went through and ....

so
Q. Did he find that Mr. Tohme violated the Talent Agent Act?

ck
A. Yes, he did.

lJa
Q. And so the award didn't deal with the violation of the Talent Agency Act. Is that correct?

A. No. He found he violated the Act and the 7.5 is a function of what was the remedy going to
be for the violation.
ae
Q. And do you recall what the award dealt with? If you don't recall, you can just tell me.
ich

A. Do I recall ....
mM

Q. What the split of the fee involved. And if you don't recall, you can just tell me.

A. The split of the fee was his management commission.

a

Q. I was talking about the theory, but that's okay.

Te

A. Oh. That he had ....

w.

Q. I mean, I would like to lead you, but I can't.

ww
 om
A. Okay. If I'm understanding what you're asking me, there were certain assets or income, that
was coming, the This Is It movie. There were some of these things that he wanted a commission.
And our view was that if he violated the Act in arranging for Mr. Jackson to tour that you are not

n.c
entitled to any commissions as a result that flowed from that tour, which the movie did. There
were other things that Tohme may have done that did not violate the Act and I think the Labor
Commissioner was saying for those things he's entitled to a commission.

so
Q. Okay. And when you talked about protecting the .... in response to one of Mr. Musen's
questions, the reason for cease-and-desist and filing lawsuits on the intellectual properties, does
that deal with name and likeness? Well, what assets are you trying to protect rather than asking

ck
you another leading question.

lJa
A. So it depends on what the infringer, if you will, was doing. Sometimes they are using a
copyright they shouldn't be using. Sometimes they're using name and likeness that they shouldn't
be using. For example in the Howard Mann case, they were putting Michael's face on a t-shirt
and selling them, or on a coffee mug, or on a calendar. That is traditional merchandising ....
ae
Q. Would all .... would it also be done to protect music rights?
ich

A. Absolutely. They were also using the music .... they were using music on the website as well.

Q. I'm not just talking about Howard Mann. I'm talking about cease-and-desist letters in
mM

general.

A. Yes.
a

Q. Are those also sent out to protect music rights as well?

Te

A. Yes, they are.

w.

Mr. Weitzman: I have nothing else. Thank you.

Judge Holmes: Recall?

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Mr. Musen: Nothing.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Okay. Thank you very much.

so
A. Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Next witness.

ck
Mr. Toscher: Nothing further today, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: All right. Who have you got for tomorrow?
ae
Mr. Toscher: We're going to have Mr. Roesler of CMG Worldwide, Mr. Fishman, of Financial
Research Associates, and I think one accounting witness just to finish that up, and I don't believe
there'll be any others.
ich

Mr. Camp: Do you know the name of the accounting witness?

mM

Mr. Toscher: Yes. Justine Ruffalo. We're hoping we can resolve the foundation of (inaudible).

Judge Holmes: Great. Sounds like it will be name and likeness tomorrow for everybody. All
right. The home office informs me we cannot run late tomorrow.
a
Te
w.
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