05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

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Balkinization

Frontpage Monday,December04,2006
Balkin.com BooksbyBalkinization
JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBeware Bloggers
Balkinization
anunanticipated thePiedPiper
consequenceof
JackM.Balkin BrianTamanaha

JudgeRichardPosneristheintellectualphenomofthiserainlaw.Thereisno
Archives doubtaboutit.Theauthorofabouttwothousandwrittendecisions,overthirty
books,andseveralhundredarticles,noonecomesclosetohisproductivity.His
influenceisalsounmatched.Posnersjudicialopinionsarecitedbyotherjudges
Email: moreoftenthantheopinionsofanyotherjudge,andhisdecisionsandscholarly
JackBalkin: worksarecitedbyacademicsmoreoftenthantheworkofanyotherjurist.He
jackbalkinat isaleadinglightoftwoinfluentialcontemporaryacademicmovements:the
yahoo.com
economicanalysisoflaw,andlegalpragmatism.
BruceAckerman
bruce.ackermanat
yale.edu Beyondthesestellarachievements,however,Posnersmostenduringlegacy
IanAyres maywellbetoseverelyunderminetheruleoflawwithinthejudiciary.Judge
ian.ayresatyale.edu Posnerisespeciallydangerousbecauseheclotheshisradicalisminseductively
MaryDudziak realisticandreasonablesoundingwordsasifhesjustbeingastraighttalker,
mary.l.dudziakat nothingnew,nothingshocking. SanfordLevinson,
emory.edu NullificationandSecession
JoeyFishkin inModernConstitutional
joey.fishkinat
Givenhisstature,hishighjudicialposition,hiscompellingintellectualstyle,and
Thought(UniversityPress
gmail.com thecontentofhisideas,itishardtoimaginethatanyonecouldbemore ofKansas2016)
HeatherGerken subversivetotheruleoflawthanJudgePosner.
heather.gerkenat
yale.edu Ampleevidenceforthesestrongassertionscanbefoundinthisrecordingofa
AbbeGluck recentdialoguebetweenJudgePosnerandProfessorBrianLeiteratthe
abbe.gluckat
UniversityofChicagoLawSchool.Theinterviewnicelyencapsulateshiscore
yale.edu
MarkGraber
viewsaboutthenatureofjudgingandaboutwhathecallspragmatic
mgraberat adjudication(whichhehaselaboratedinmanybooksandarticles).
law.umaryland.edu
StephenGriffin Hisviewsonthesetwotopicscanbesummarizedasfollows:Posnerbelieves
sgriffinattulane.edu thatjudgingontheSupremeCourtisalmostentirelypolitical,andhebelieves
BernardHarcourt thatjudgingontheCourtofAppeals(hiscourt),andjudginggenerally,is
harcourtat
substantiallypolitical.Thisviewofthepoliticalnatureofjudgingiswidely
uchicago.edu
ScottHorton
sharedamonglegalacademicsandpoliticalscientists,althoughmanyjudges
shortoat disagree.Posner,furthermore,advocatesthatjudgesshoulddecidecasesina
law.columbia.edu pragmaticfashion,orientedtowardrenderingthemostreasonabledecisionina
AndrewKoppelman givencase(allthingsconsidered).
akoppelmanat
law.northwestern.edu SanfordLevinson,An
ToobtainasenseofPosnersviewofthesematters,considerhiscomments ArgumentOpentoAll:
MartyLederman
(paraphrased): ReadingTheFederalistin
msl46at
law.georgetown.edu the21stCentury(Yale
SanfordLevinson WhenaskedbyLeiterwhetherhethinksthatjudgeshaveadutyorobligationto UniversityPress2015)
slevinsonat applythelaw,Posnerpointedlydoesnotacceptthetermsofthequestion.
law.utexas.edu Ratherthancharacterizeitasaduty,hesaidthattherearebasicrulesofthe
DavidLuban gamethatjudgesmustconformto(violatorsriskeffortwastingand
david.lubanat embarrassingreversals),towit:judgesmustfollowanystatuteorprecedent
gmail.com
thatclearlyresolvesanissue.Judgesareconstrainedbyrulesinthissense.
GerardMagliocca
gmagliocatiupui.edu
JasonMazzone However,accordingtoPosner,theseconstraintsarealmostneveratplayatthe
mazzonejat leveloftheSupremeCourt(casesthatmakeittothatlevelareseldomclearin
illinois.edu legalterms,andtheCourtcanrepudiateitsownprecedent),andveryoftennot
LindaMcClain inplayattheCourtofAppeals.Asignificantfractionofthecasesheardby
lmcclainatbu.edu theCourtofAppealsisnotclearlydeterminedbystatutesorprecedent.
JohnMikhail
Moreover,Posnersays,theordinarycanonsofstatutoryinterpretationand
mikhailat
law.georgetown.edu
reasoningbyanalogydonothelpproducealegalanswer.
FrankPasquale
pasquale.frankat Hence,inthatsituation,ajudgemustrenderadecisionaboutthemost
gmail.com reasonableresultforthepresentandfuture.Thereisnothingparticularlylegal
NatePersily aboutthisdecision.Judgessimplymakepolicyjudgmentsbasedupontheirlife StephenM.Griffin,Broken
npersilyatgmail.com experiences,temperament,andideologicalviews.[NoticehowmuchPosner Trust:Dysfunctional
MichaelStokes
agrees,atleastonthesepoints,withtheoldCritsCriticalLegalStudiesfolks Governmentand
Paulsen
michaelstokespaulsen
whowerehighlyskepticaloftheroleoflawinjudicialdecisionmaking.] ConstitutionalReform
(UniversityPressofKansas,
atgmail.com
Posnerfullyembracestheimplicationsofhisviewsofjudging.Herecognizes 2015)
DeborahPearlstein
dpearlstat thatjudgesmayhavedifferentopinionsaboutwhatisareasonableresultina
princeton.edu givencasethatsjustthewayitis.Whicheverviewhappenstohavethemost
RickPildes votesonajudicialpanelwins.Outcomesingivencasesarethereforeafunction
rick.pildesatnyu.edu
ofthevagariesofwhohappenstobeassignedtoagivenpanel.Temperingthis
RichardPrimus
raprimusat
implication,Posneralsopointsoutthatappellatejudgesagreeagreatdealof
umich.edu thetime,butheinsiststhatthisagreementisnotsomuchattributableto
K.SabeelRahman sharedinterpretationsofthelaw,butrathertosimilaroutlooks,experiences,
sabeel.rahmanat andvaluesheldbyjudges,whichproducesharedjudgmentsaboutwhatis
brooklaw.edu reasonable.Sincedecisionsinthesecasesrestuponpoliticalviews,Posner
acceptsthatthepoliticalviewsofindividualjudgesshouldbeconsideredinthe
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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
acceptsthatthepoliticalviewsofindividualjudgesshouldbeconsideredinthe
AliceRistroph
alice.ristrophat appointmentsprocess(andheaddsthat,rhetoricnotwithstanding,theSenators
shu.edu alreadyknowthis).
NeilSiegel
siegelat
law.duke.edu Posnersdescriptionofwhatjudgingisandshouldbeseemsrefreshingly
BrianTamanaha realisticandcandid.Manylawprofessorsandmostpoliticalscientistswhoare
btamanahaat wellversedontheindeterminacyoflawandtheinfluenceofpoliticsonlegal
wulaw.wustl.edu decisionsalreadyholdtheseviews,whichmakeshisobservationsallthemore
MarkTushnet attractivetotheseaudiences.Comingfromajudgeindeedfromthemost
mtushnetat influentialcontemporaryjuristhispronouncementsaboutthenatureofjudging
law.harvard.edu
carryaddedweight.
AdamWinkler
winkleratucla.edu
ButisPosnercorrect?
Compendiumofposts
onHobbyLobbyand Toanswerthiswemustseparatetwodifferenttypesofclaims:Hisdescriptive
relatedcases claimsarethatthelawoftendoesnotprovideaclearanswer,andinthese
casesjudgeslargelyrendertheirdecisionsonpoliticalgrounds(whether FrankPasquale,TheBlack
TheAntiTorture
consciouslyornot)hisprescriptiveassertionisthatjudgesshoulddecidecases BoxSociety:TheSecret
Memos:Balkinization
inapragmaticmanner.(Thediscussionbelowonlyaddresseslowercourt AlgorithmsThatControl
PostsonTorture,
judges,nottheSupremeCourt,forwhichthesituationismorecomplicated). MoneyandInformation
Interrogation,
(HarvardUniversityPress,
Detention,War
2015)
Powers,andOLC Letstakeupthedescriptiveclaimsfirst.

TheAntiTorture ContrarytoPosner,manyjudgesadamantlyinsistthatmostofthetimethelaw
Memos(arrangedby
determinestheirdecisions.Althoughthelawwillnotalwaysdictateasingle
topic)
rightanswer,eveninsituationsoflegaluncertaintyusuallyoneoutcomecanbe
RecentPosts rankedasmorelegallydefensibleorpersuasivethanotheroutcomes.Judges
admitthatsometimesthelawrunsoutnooutcomeislegallystrongerthanany
JudgePosner's othersoadecisionmustbemadeonothergrounds,buttheyinsistthatthis
SeductiveRealism notafrequentoccurrence.
andPragmatic
AdjudicationBeware
Posneraccountsforthesedenialsbyassertingthatmanyjudgesareself
thePiedPiper
deludedorbeingdeceptive(inauthentic)abouttheiractualdecisionmaking
process,andthattheirwrittendecisionsareafterthefactrationalizationswhich
concealtheactual(political)basisforthedecision.Herehisdescriptiveand
prescriptiveclaimsmerge:Hethinksthatmanyjudgesinfactalreadyrender
decisionsinthepragmaticmannerheadvocates,buthewantsthistobedone
consciouslyandopenly,whichwouldproducebetterresults.
BruceAckerman,Wethe
JustAFewBlogs
Fortheirpart,thejudgeswhoinsistthatmostoftheirdecisionsaredetermined People,Volume3:TheCivil

ACSWeblog
bythelaw,nottheirpolicypreferences,canrespondthatPosnerisprojecting RightsRevolution(Harvard
hisowndecisionmakingprocessontootherjudges.ItisJudgePosnerwho UniversityPress,2014)
Alas,aBlog
Althouse tendstodecideadisproportionatenumberofcasesonpoliticalgrounds.[Onthis
BalkinizationSymposiumon
ArtsandLettersDaily point:Asindicatedhere,1994reportbytheChicagoCouncilofLawyers WethePeople,Volume3:
Atrios(Eschaton) concluded:AverysubstantialnumberoflawyersbelievethatChiefJudge TheCivilRightsRevolution
BadAttitudes Posnerroutinelydoesnotpaysufficientattentiontothefacts,orleavesout
BillofHealth
crucialfacts,inordertoreachdesiredconclusions.ChiefJudgePosnerfeels
Buzzflash.com
BuzzMachine
lessconstrainedbyprecedent,history,andtheproperlimitsonappellate
Cairns(BethNoveck) judgingthan,intheCouncilsview,heshould].
CatoatLiberty
JuanCole(Informed ThesejudgescanagreewithPosnersassertionthatpublisheddecisionsare
Comment) rationalizationsconstructedafterthefactratherthanaccountsofhowthe
ConcurringOpinions decisionwasactuallymadebecausewrittenopinionsaremeanttoarticulate
TheConstitutionin
thestrongestlegalargumentthatjustifiesthedecision.Thereisnothing
2020
Corrente
dishonestaboutthispractice.
CrookedTimber
DailyHowler Itappearsthatwehaveastandoffonthedescriptiveclaims.Manylaw
DailyKos professorsandpoliticalscientistssidewithPosner,inpartbecausethatiswhat
DanaBoyd theyalreadybelieve.Insupportofthisbelieftheypointtomultiplestudiesthat
BradDeLong showcorrelationsbetweenjudgesdecisionsandtheirpersonalattitudes.
Digby(Hullabaloo)
Discriminations
DanielDrezner
Butthejudgeswhoinsistthatlawdecidescasescanpointtotheverysame
KevinDrum(Mother studies,whichacknowledgethatanoverwhelmingproportionofappellate JosephFishkin,Bottlenecks:
Jones) decisionsareunanimous(ofteninthe90%range),notwithstandingideological ANewTheoryofEqual
Electrolite differencesamongjudges.Posner,moreover,hasofferednoevidenceto Opportunity(Oxford
EnBanc supporthisassertionthatthishighproportionofagreementislargelythe UniversityPress,2014)
Eunomia(Daniel productofthesharedsocialvaluesofthejudgesratherthanthemore
Larison)
immediateandobviousexplanationthatitistheproductofshared
Fafblog
MichaelFroomkin
interpretationsoftheapplicablelaw(asdeterminedbytheconventionsofthe
(Discourse.net) legaltradition).
RickHasen(Election
Law) Althoughitlookslikeatie,acompellingargumentcanbemadethatPosner
HistoryNewsNetwork (andlikemindedlawprofessorsandpoliticalscientists)hasnotmadehiscase,
HowAppealing forthisreason:Posnersdescriptiveassertionsrestontheclaimsthatthebulk
Ignatz(Sam
ofjudgesareeitherselfdeludedorperpetratingadeception.Theseuncharitable
Heldman)
TheImportanceof
claimsrequiresupport,especiallyinanerainwhichtheentirelegalculture
(ErnieMiller) includingjudgeshasbeenthoroughlyinfluencedbyLegalRealism.Nojudge
Infolaw todaybelievesintheoldformalistbromidesaboutmechanisticreasoning.
Instapundit Therefore,wemustrecognizethat,basedupontheirownrealisticunderstanding
International oflaw,judgesstillinsistthatmostoftheirdecisionsaredeterminedbythelaw.
EconomicLawand Theburden,itseemsfairtosay,remainsonPosner.
PolicyBlog
IntLawGrrls
JacobLevy
Nowletstakeuphisprescriptiveclaimabouttheattractivenessofpragmatic
MarkA.Graber,ANew
Jesus'General adjudication.
IntroductiontoAmerican
Jurisdynamics Constitutionalism(Oxford
TheKitchenCabinet Thebestwaytoevaluatetheimplicationsofhisproposedapproachtojudgingis UniversityPress,2013)
toseehowitworksoutinaspecificcontext.HereisPosnersdescriptionofthe
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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
toseehowitworksoutinaspecificcontext.HereisPosnersdescriptionofthe
MarkKleiman
LawBlogCentral processbywhichhewouldrenderadecisionaboutthelegalityofPresident
LarryLessig Bushshighlycontroversialwarrantlesswiretappingprogram,whichraises
Lawyers,Gunsand
complexlegalquestions.ThewayIapproachacaseasajudge,Posnerwrote,
Money
LiberalOasis isfirsttoaskmyselfwhatwouldbeareasonable,sensibleresult,asalay
BrianLeiter'sLaw personwouldunderstandit,andthen,havingansweredthatquestion,toask
SchoolReports whetherthatresultisblockedbyclearconstitutionalorstatutorytext,governing
TheLeiterReports precedent,oranyotherconventionallimitationonjudicialdiscretion.
MarginalRevolution
MeganMcArdle Note,first,thatPosnersprimaryorientationinthisdescriptionisnotrule
Memeorandum
orientedorlegal.Itis,rather,outcomeorientedandbasedonnonlegal(lay)
Metafilter
MirrorofJustice considerations.Oneshouldalsorecognizehowextremelyambitiousthistaskis.
TheNewRepublic Securityexpertsaswellaslaypeoplesharplydisagreeaboutwhatisa
Newseum reasonableresultinthissituation.Decisionsofthistyperestuponmany
NoMoreMisterNice imponderablesofbothvalue(theimportanceofcivilliberties)andfact(the
Blog usefulnessofthisprogramascomparedtoalternatives).Theproblemisnotjust
BrendanNyhan thattherewillbegreatdisagreementoverwhatisareasonableresult,butthat
OpinioJuris
thereisnodemonstrablycorrectorbestanswertothisquestion.Ineffect,
Orcinus JohnMikhail,Elementsof
TheOriginalismBlog underPosnersapproach,wehavetradedanopenandcomplicatedlegal MoralCognition:Rawls'
Pandagon questionforanevenmoreopenandcomplicatedpolicy/value LinguisticAnalogyandthe
Passport(Foreign based/empiricallycontingentquestion.Andwhyweshouldthinkthatjudgesare CognitiveScienceofMoral
Policy) qualifiedtomakesuchdecisions?[Abriefdigression:Inhisinterviewwith andLegalJudgment
OvercomingBias Leiter,PosnercriticizesDworkinstheoryofjudicialdecisionmakingastoo (CambridgeUniversity
PoliticalAnimal ambitiousbecauseitrequiresjudgestorationalizelargeareasoflawandto Press,2013)
(WashingtonMonthly)
renderdifficultandcontestabledecisionsaboutmoralprinciplesforwhich
PoliticalTheoryDaily
Review judgesareunqualified.PosnerisrightabouthiscriticismsofDworkin,but,as
PoliticalWire(Taegan thisexampleshows,theverysamechargeofimpracticableambitiousnesscan
Goddard) beleveledagainsthisownmoremodestpragmaticapproach.].
ThePoorMan
VirginiaPostrel Thereisanotherseriousproblemwithhisapproach.Aftercomingupwiththe
Prawfsblawg mostsensibleresult,Posnerwillthenconsulttheapplicablelegalrulestocheck
PublicReason
whetherthatresultisclearlyprohibited.Butanoutcomethatcanpassthistest
JonathanRauch
RawStory onethatisnotclearlyprohibitedbythelawisnotnecessarilythestrongest
Redstate ormostcorrectlegaloutcome.Owingtotheindeterminacyoflaw,thenot
ReligiousLeftLaw.com clearlyruledoutstandardproposedbyPosnermeansthatjudgeswillhave
ReportersCommittee substantialleewaytoimplementwhateverresultanindividualjudgeconsiders
ForFreedomofthe sensible.
Press
ReproductiveRights
NowwecanpindowntheconcretedifferencebetweenPosnerspragmatic
Blog
Rothman'sRoadmap adjudicatorandjudgeswhoarecommittedtofollowingthelaw.Posnerhasin
totheRightof effectgivenustwoteststobeusedtogether:ifthelawisclear,thejudgemust
GerardN.Magliocca,
Publicity followit,butifthelawisunclear(whichhesayshappensalot),thenthejudge AmericanFoundingSon:
SCOTUSBlog canruleinfavorofwhatthejudgedeemsreasonable,unlessthatparticular JohnBinghamandthe
SeeingtheForest outcomeisclearlyprohibitedbythelaw.Sandwichedbetweenthesetwotestsis InventionoftheFourteenth
ClayShirky thelargebodyofcasesinwhichthelawislessthanclear,butoneresultis Amendment(NewYork
TheShiftedLibrarian
morelegallycompellingordefensiblethananyalternativeinterpretation.Unlike UniversityPress,2013)
TheSituationist
LarrySolum(Legal pragmaticadjudicators,whointhesecaseswilldecideforthereasonableresult
Theory) (asdeterminedbytheirownlights)unlessitisclearlyruledout,judges
AndrewSullivan committedtofollowingthelawwillfeeldutyboundtorenderthemostlegally
TalkingPointsMemo compellingdecision.
TalkLeft
Tapped IbeganthispostbystatingthatPosnersideasinparticularhispragmatic
Tbogg
adjudicationposeagravethreattotheruleoflaw.Thereasonsforthisshould
TechPresident
ThePaperChase nowbemanifest.Underhisproposedapproach,judicialdecisionswilloftenbe
(Jurist) drivenbypolicydecisionsaboutoutcomesratherthanbytheapplicablerules.
TomPaine Outcomeswillturnontheviewsofindividualjudges,butjudgeshavedifferent
TomTomorrow(This viewsonthesematters.Certaintyofapplication,predictability,andequalityof
ModernWorld) applicationwilldiminish.Itistruethatpoliticsalready(andinevitably)has
EveTushnet someplayinjudicialdecisions,buttheimmediateeffectofPosnerspragmatic
Uggabugga
adjudicationwillbetofurtherloosenlegalconstraintsbyencouragingjudgesto
UniversityofChicago
LawSchoolFaculty shiftmorequickly(whenthelegalresultisnotclearlydictated)tomakingresult
Blog orientednonlegaldecisions.Thiswillaltertheproportioninjudgingawayfrom
UnqualifiedOfferings legaltowardmorepoliticaldecisionmaking.Itwillmoreoftenbetheruleofthe
TheVolokh individualwhohappenstobethejudge,ratherthantheruleoflaw. StephenM.Griffin,Long
Conspiracy WarsandtheConstitution
WarandPiece(Laura (HarvardUniversityPress,
Posnersresponsetotheseobjectionsisthatheismerelydescribingthereality 2013)
Rozen)
ofthesituation,sodenyingitordecryingitsharmfulconsequencestotherule
Wampum
OliverWillis oflawispointless.Theruleoflawstillexists,accordingtoPosner,aslongas
Wonkette thejudgeremainsimpartial(inthesenseofnotfavoringalitigant).
WrittenDescription
MatthewYglesias MyargumentisthatPosnersdescriptiveclaimiswrong:mostjudgesstriveto
Yin comeupwiththebestthestrongestlegaloutcomeasdictatedbythe
applicablerules.Theydothiswhetherthelegalrulesareclearorcomplicated
anduncertain.Whennostrongestlegalanswerexists,whichdoeshappen,they
maywelltrytofigureoutthemostreasonableresultinthemannerthatPosner
YourChoiceofFeeds suggests(whatelsecantheydo?).Ofcourse,ruleboundjudgesstillpay
1.XMLpoweredby attentiontoresultsandconsequences.Whentheoutcomedictatedbytherules
2RSS.com isextremelyunpalatable,theywillstrugglewiththelawtoavoidthisresult.
::RSS Thisdoesnotchangethefactthattheiroverarchingorientationistotryto
2.AtomFeed figureoutwhatthelawrequires,andtodulycomply.Thisorientationis
essentialtoaruleoflawsystem.
3.
Subscribewith This,too,isarealisticviewofjudging.LikePosner,Iamapragmatist.Andmy
Bloglines
argumentisthat,forpragmaticreasons,owingtotheharmfulconsequencesto AndrewKoppelman,The
theruleoflawthatwillfollowfromadoptingPosnersapproach,judgesshould ToughLuckConstitutionand
4.RSS2.0 theAssaultonHealthCare
rejecthispragmaticadjudication.JudgePosneracknowledgesthatapragmatist
Reform(OxfordUniversity
neednotthinkthatpragmaticadjudicationiswise.Hewrote:[A]pragmatist
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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
neednotthinkthatpragmaticadjudicationiswise.Hewrote:[A]pragmatist
Press,2013)
committedtojudgingalegalsystembytheresultsthesystemproducedmight
thinkthatthebestresultswouldbeproducedifthejudgesdidnotmake
pragmaticjudgmentsbutsimplyappliedtherules.Indeed.

Thedangeristhis:ifpeoplewithinandoutsidethelegalculturesuccumbtohis
viewthatjudgesalreadyinfactdecidecasesinthismanner,andshoulddecide
casesinthismanner,moreandmorejudgeswillbegintoreasoninthisfashion.
Thenhisdescriptiveclaimwillbecorrect,and,Ifear,wewilldiscoverthe
untowardconsequencesofhisprescriptiveclaim.

Onthisfinalpoint,thedialoguebetweenJudgePosnerandProfessorLeiterwas
worrisomeforanotherreason.ItwasaneventsponsoredbytheFederalist
SocietyattheUniversityofChicagoLawSchool.Yetthisgroup,explicitly
dedicatedtopromotingtheappointmentofjudgeswhocommitthemselvesto
followthelaw,hardlychallengedhisideas,whicharefundamentallyantithetical
tothisobjective.
JamesE.FlemingandLinda
Infairnesstothestudentspresent,JudgePosnerisanintellectualgiantwith
C.McClain,Ordered
immensestature.Hispartneronthepanel,ProfessorLeiter,indicatedthathe Liberty:Rights,
agreeswithmuchofPosnersposition(thoughhisquestionsraisedsomeofthe Responsibilities,andVirtues
aboveobjections),andheisaformidablelegaltheoristinhisownright.It (HarvardUniversityPress,
wouldrequireunusualcourageunderthesecircumstancestopresstheJudge 2013)
(andheadroitlysidesteppedthefewstudentswhomadetheattempt).
BalkinizationSymposiumon
OrderedLiberty:Rights,
AlthoughIavidlyreadPosnerswork(aswellasLeiters),andcanbecountedas
Responsibilities,andVirtues
afan,Ifeelcompelledtosoundoutthiswarning:bewaryofthepiedpiperof
pragmaticadjudication.

Posted10:27AMbyBrianTamanaha[link]

Comments:

I'dliketofocusonjustonesmallpointmadeinthepostingthat"writtenopinionsare
meanttoarticulatethestrongestlegalargumentthatjustifiesthedecision.Thereis
nothingdishonestaboutthispractice."

Ibelievethatthispracticeisdishonest.Anadvocate'sbriefsshouldarticulatethestrongest
legalargumentthatjustifieshisposition."[T]hetaskofajudge,"bycontrast(Iquote
JamesBoydWhitein_JusticeasTranslation_)"istoexposetothereaderthegrounds AndrewKoppelman,
uponwhichherjudgmentactuallyrests,withasfullandfairastatementofherdoubts DefendingAmerican
anduncertaintiesasshecanmanage.Suchanopinionwouldestablisharelationshipof ReligiousNeutrality
fundamentalequalitywiththereader,whomightfollowthewholeargument,consider (HarvardUniversityPress,
himselfenlightenedbyit,butcometotheoppositeconclusion." 2013)

#postedby Henry:11:17AM

Thisisaverynicepostandseemslargelyrighttome.It'simportanttostress,though,
thatthisshouldhavebeenobvioustoanyonereadingPosner,bothhiswrittenopinions
andhismoreacademicwork,foryearsandyears.(HisbookonBushvGoreisanobvious
example.)ThevariousspankingsgiventohimbyRonaldDworkinovertheyearsaregood
placestolooktohelpseewhat'swrongwiththisview.Someofthemcanbefoundon
Dworkin'sNYUwebpage.
#postedby Anonymous:11:30AM

Firstoff,JudgePosnerisfartooquicktoreplacetheobjective"reasonableperson"withhis
ownsubjectivepreferences.Thistrendisomnipresentthroughouthisrecentopinionsand
commentaries.
BrianZ.Tamanaha,Failing
Meanwhile(andthismaybesayingthesamethinginadifferentway),I'venoticedthat LawSchools(Universityof
JudgePosner,especiallyinhisrecent"terrorv.civilliberties"writings,suffersfromwhat ChicagoPress,2012)
economistscall"lexicographicpreferences."

Inotherwords,oncePosnerdecidesthat"securitytrumpsprivacy,"thenthat'sit,game
overanyandeveryintrusionintocivillibertiesis"worthit."Youdon'twantanother9/11,
doyou?

Thatsuchreasoningcouldcomefromamansoreadilyassociatedwith"law&economics"
acompletedisdainforcostbenefitanalysisatthemarginhasbefuddledmeeversince
hestartedwritingaboutthewaronterror.
#postedby KipEsquire:12:01PM

ItissadtoseeamanofPosner'sobviousintellectopenlyadmitthatheisviolatinghis
oathofofficetoapplythelawandseenothingwrongwiththis.
#postedby BartDePalma:12:59PM

SanfordLevinson,Framed:
Hello,Brian.Interestingpost.SoifIunderstandit,yourargumenttotheviewthat America's51Constitutions
Posnersideasconstituteagravethreattotheruleoflawrunsasfollows(Imconstructing andtheCrisisof

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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
Posnersideasconstituteagravethreattotheruleoflawrunsasfollows(Imconstructing
Governance(Oxford
thisfromthe"Ibeganthispost"paragraphwhichsummarizesyourargumenttothis UniversityPress,2012)
view):

1.IfjudgesacceptedPosnersideas,judicialdecisionswouldoftenbedrivenbypolicy
decisionsaboutoutcomesratherthanbytheapplicablerules.

2.Ifjudicialdecisionsareoftendrivenbypolicydecisionsaboutoutcomesratherthanby
theapplicablerules,thenoutcomeswillturnontheviewsofindividualjudges.

3.Ifoutcomesturnontheviewsofindividualjudges,thenifjudgeshavedifferentviews
aboutwhatoutcomesaredesirable,thencertaintyofapplication,predictability,and
equalityofapplicationwilldiminish.

4.Judgesdohavedifferentviewsaboutwhatoutcomesaredesirable.

5.(From3,4)Soifoutcomesturnontheviewsofindividualjudges,thencertaintyof
application,predictability,andequalityofapplicationwilldiminish.

6.Ifcertaintyofapplication,predictability,andequalityofapplicationdiminish,thenthe LindaC.McClainand
proportioninjudgingwillbealteredawayfromlegaltowardmorepoliticaldecisionmaking. JoannaL.Grossman,
GenderEquality:
7.Iftheproportioninjudgingisalteredawayfromlegaltowardmorepoliticaldecision DimensionsofWomen's
EqualCitizenship
making,thentherewillbeagravethreattotheruleoflaw.
(CambridgeUniversity
Press,2012)
8.(From1,2,5,6,7)SoifjudgesacceptedPosnersideas,thentherewillbeagrave
threattotheruleoflaw.

6and7seemdubiousatbest.Andwhatdoyoumeanby"theruleoflaw"?
#postedby Tom:1:01PM

ThisistangentialtoProf.Tamanaha'spoint,but....

IsanyoneelseunimpressedwithPosner?Icertainlyhaven'treadallhiswritings,butthose
Ihavereadseemedsuperficial.Perhapsthat'saconsequenceofthequantityofhisoutput
IMHOhemighthavedonebetterifhehaddoneless.
#postedby MarkField:1:17PM

Posner'sapproachreallyseemstoleadtoasituationwherebythelawtendstobecome
capricious.Whatusefulpurposecanitserve,beinguntruetoitself? MaryDudziak,WarTime:
#postedby bitswapper:1:48PM AnIdea,ItsHistory,Its
Consequences(Oxford
UniversityPress,2012)

ProfessorTamanaha:[JudgePosner'sassertion]sharedsocialvaluesofthejudgesrather
thanthemoreimmediateandobviousexplanationthatitistheproductofshared
interpretationsoftheapplicablelaw...

Thisstrikesmeasabitrecursive.Sharedinterpretationcanonlyrisefromsharedsocial
values.Idon'tseehowtoseparatetheseinanymeaningfulway.

ProfessorTamanaha:Posnersdescriptiveassertionsrestontheclaimsthatthebulkof
judgesareeitherselfdeludedorperpetratingadeception

TheFruedian'shavethedoctrineofdenial.TheMarxistshave"falseconsciousness."Judge
Posnerhastheabove.Allareseriouserrorsofthought,selfsealingprophecy,viewsfor
whichevidenceandlackofevidencearetakenasconfirmation(e.g.,"Ofcourseyoucan't
provetheProtocolsofZionwerewrittenbytheElders,whichjustproveshowcannythey
wereinwritingthem!")It'sslipperierthanselffulfillingprophecy,butintheendit'sa
variantonbeggingthequestion,andreallyshouldbebeneathanyoneashighlysituatedas
JudgePosner.
JackM.Balkin,Living
Inlinewithkipesquire'scomment,whenJudgePosnersays,"askmyselfwhatwouldbea Originalism(Harvard
reasonable,sensibleresult,asalaypersonwouldunderstandit"whatwehaveisplainold UniversityPress,2011)
disingenuousness.NobodyinJudgePosner'spositionshouldbeallowedtopretendthisis
anacceptablemethod."Reasonable","sensible"to*which*layperson?Thelaityisa
tremendouslyheterogeneousgroupfromwhichanarbitrarysamplecannotbeassumedto
berepresentative.Norcanrecoursetostaticalanalysisofthe"average"laypersonbeof
useindeterminingsoundnessofanargument,muchlesstherightnessorlawfulnessofa
decisionsuchthingsarenotdemocraticinnature,anymorethanthenatureofpi.

MarkField:
IsanyoneelseunimpressedwithPosner?

IhavefoundJudgePosnertouniformlybewhatIimpertinentlythinkofasaSocial
DarwinistApologist,onewho,asProfessorTamanahasoeloquentlyputsit,"clotheshis
radicalisminseductivelyrealisticandreasonablesoundingwordsasifhesjustbeinga
straighttalker,nothingnew,nothingshocking".Ihavearguedelsewherethatthe
ascendancyofeconomicthinkingisinserviceofthemoniedclass,whichisfineandgood
asfarasitgoes.Butwhensuchthinkingallowspollutiontobedeemed"external"toan
endeavorweseeaseriousweaknessintheoverallvalueofsuchanalysis.Bytheirown
statedvaluestheeconomicanalystsfallshortbecauseoftheirbizarreabilitytodraw
arbitrarylines(whichonlycoincidentallyhappentosupportbig,andincreasinglybigger, JasonMazzone,Copyfraud
business)asifignorantoftherealitiesofinterdependentsystems.Buteveniftheyplayed andOtherAbusesof
fairlywithintheirownrules,themodelofusersandutiles,likeallmodels,islimited.We IntellectualPropertyLaw
aremorethanouruseofthethingsweuse.AndasProfessorTamanahahaspointedout (StanfordUniversityPress,
elsewhereonthisblogandinhisbook,whereLawisallowedtobesolelyatool,ameansto 2011)
anendoflitigants,thenjustice,equalityandlibertysuffer.

https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 5/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

#postedby RobertLink:2:39PM

JudgePosner'smaincontributionistheapplicationofeconomicstolaw.Hisapproachis
verysuccessfulwherethelawappliestobusiness,somewhatinterestingwhenappliedto
criminallawandutterlyuselesswhenappliedtoindividualrights.

Economicsisessentiallyaboutmaximizingefficiency.Ourlawsshouldbeefficientwhen
appliedtobusinesstoavoidimposingundueburdensontheeconomy.Dueinnosmall
extenttotheworkofjudgeslikePosnerandBorkinthisarea,ourbusinesslawsarethe
envyoftherestoftheworld.

However,individualrightsisallaboutplacingburdensagainstgovernmentactionsagainst
thecitizenry.Inthisarea,thelastthingwewantisanefficientgovernment.
#postedby BartDePalma:3:16PM
RichardW.Garnettand
AndrewKoppelman,First
AmendmentStories,
JudgePosnerleftlaw&economicsbehindwheneconomistsstartingtestinghisconclusions (FoundationPress2011)
usingdata.Thathemovedontopragmatismisprobablynosurprisesincehethinks
himselftheultimatepragmatist.Hehasalwaysknownhimselftobethereasonableperson
decidingwhatshouldbedecided.
#postedby MikeZimmer:4:56PM

Bart:Inthisarea,thelastthingwewantisanefficientgovernment.

WithinthatframeworkIcanonlysay,"Amen!"

We'llreserveforalaterdayslipperyissuessuchasquestioningthelegitimacyof
considering"thecitizenry"asseparablefrom"thegovernment",or"themarket"as
separablefrom"thegovernment".
#postedby RobertLink:4:58PM

Speakingaboutinsincereanddangerouslegalreasoning:readthesmackdownofthe JackM.Balkin,
ConstitutionalRedemption:
administration'sargumentsbythepadilladefense.
PoliticalFaithinanUnjust
World(HarvardUniversity
Sorrytopostthisinthisthreadbutouch,thismusthurtfortheadministration.Youcan
Press,2011)
findtheothernewmotionshere,here,here,andhere.
#postedby Anne:6:24PM TheTragedyofWilliam
JenningsBryan

Anne:

DoyouhavealinktotheGOVERNMENTSRESPONSETOTHEMOTIONTODISMISSFOR
OUTRAGEOUSGOVERNMENTCONDUCT?

Igoogleditandcouldnotfindanything.Theinterestedpartiespostingthesemotionsseem
onlyinterestedinpostingthedefensemotions.Iwonderwhy?

ItisdifficulttodetermineiftheGovernment'sresponsewasactually"smackeddown" GerardMagliocca,The
withoutseeingtheargumentsandthelegalauthoritypresentedbytheGovernment. TragedyofWilliamJennings
Bryan:ConstitutionalLaw
andthePoliticsofBacklash
IamnotanexpertinthisareabutIhadnoproblemdifferentiatingthedefense
(YaleUniversityPress,
outrageousgovernmentconductcasescitedbytheoriginaldefensebriefwithahalfhour
2011)
ofresearchonthenet.IamsureJusticedidamuchmorethoroughjobintheirresponse
brief.

Outrageousgovernmentconductisalmostneverrecognizedasanabsolutedefensetoa
criminalchargeexceptwhentheallegedoutrageousconductbroughteitherthepersonor
theevidenceintothejurisdictionofthecourt.Neithersituationexistshere.

Thetoneofthedefensereplyscreams,butitdoesnotscreamconfidence.Thedefense
spendsagreatdealoftimepleadingforahearingtokeeptheirmotionaliveinthehope
thatsomethingmightturnuptoactuallyprovePadilla'sallegationsoftorture.

Iwouldbeamazedifthecourtgrantedthedefensemotiontodismiss,butthejudgemay
orderanevidentiaryhearing,whichwouldofcoursebeappealedbythegovernment.This
tusslecouldgoonformonths.

Givenhowweakthegovernmentcaseappearsinthepress,IwonderwhetherPadilla's
attorneysaremoreconcernedwithmakingapoliticalpointabout"torture"whileleaving
Padillainjailratherthangototrialtogettheirclientreleased.Unless,thegovernment
caseisstrongerthanwehavebeenledtobelievebythepress. BernardHarcourt,The
#postedby BartDePalma:11:29PM IllusionofFreeMarkets:
PunishmentandtheMythof
NaturalOrder(Harvard
UniversityPress,2010)
"Whennostrongestlegalanswerexists,whichdoeshappen,theymaywelltrytofigure
outthemostreasonableresultinthemannerthatPosnersuggests(whatelsecanthey
do?)."

Well,theycoulddowhatItypicallywoulddointhatsituation(unlessthecasewasonefor
theages):figureoutthemostreasonableresultthatislikelytowithstandscrutinyof/not
bereversedbytheCourtthenextlevelabovemine.

https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 6/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

#postedby dell:11:36PM

Anne:

Hereisalinktothegovernment'sresponsebrief,whichIfoundtrollingaroundtryingto
findoutaboutthedefenseattorneysinthiscase.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/docs/
Padilla_torture_response.pdf

Iwillprintoutandreadthispuppytomorrow.
#postedby BartDePalma:11:37PM BruceAckerman,The
DeclineandFallofthe
AmericanRepublic(Harvard
UniversityPress,2010)
Veryinterestingpost,ProfTamanaha.ItseemslikePosner/pragmatismneedsadefender
onthisthread.First,IdoubtDworkin'sownwebsiteisthemostobjectiveresourceasto BalkinizationSymposiumon
whohas"won"thedebatebetweenhimandPosner.Bymylights,it'sPosnerhandsdown. TheDeclineandFallofthe
Inanyevent,evenifyoudon'tcarewhatIthink(noreasonyoushould)itisworthnoting AmericanRepublic
thatDworkinisn'teventakenseriouslyanymoreinhisfieldofspeciality,legalphilosophy.
Second,ifyou're"unimpressed"byPosner,Ithinkyouneedtoreadmore.Agreewihthim
ornot,heisanimpressiveintellect.

IdothinkthatPosneroverstatestheattitudinalmodel/political/legalrealistcompenentof
adjudication,butnotbymuch(certainlynotattheUSSClevel).Recentempiricalresearch
iveseenseemstoshowthatwhilethereisasignificantpoliticalcomponenttoCOApanels
andvotes,thereisalso,asProfTamanahanotes,ahighlevelofagreementonmany
cases,whichshowsthatthebehaviroalistshavesomethingtoaddtotheconversation.

Perhapsmostimportantly,Posner'spragmatismisn'tgettingafairshakehere.Itisn't
simplyajudgeinvokinghisownpersonalpreferencesandthenwritinganopiniontojustify
thatinlegaljargon.Animportantpointismadein"Law,Pragmatism,andDemocracy"
Posnerwrites(andIparaphrase)thatifajudgeisfacedwithwhetherthereis14thAm
SDPrighttoassistedsuicide,thejudgeshouldratherthan"inhaletheintoxicatingvapors
ofconsttheory"(irememberthatnuggetverbatim!)he(she!)shouldfamiliarizehimself
withrelevantsocialscienceresearchanddeterminewhetheritisgoodpolicy.

Tomymind,thisisabetterwaytoapproachjudgingratherthanajudgeinthe IanAyres.Carrotsand
Scalia/Thomasveintoarticulatehispositionthatthereisnosuchrightinlegaljargonor, Sticks:UnlockthePowerof
fromtheotherendofthespectrum,aBrennan/Marshalldressinguphispolitical IncentivestoGetThings
preferencesinlawyerstermsofart.ANotherexample:Kennedy'sdecisioninLawrenceto Done(BantamBooks,
2010)
usethathorriblelanguageaboutthemysteriesoflife(didntwe/hegetour/hisfillin
Casey?)anddefniningone'sownconceptofexistence.

Thethingis,IAGREEwiththeoutcomeinLawrencewholeheartedly,butKennedyleaves
himselfopentocriticimsbybasinghisrulingonsecondratephilosophizing(atthevery
leastcriticismbyconservativelaypeople,journalists,etc.)

Onefinalpoint.Ithinkthepostsinthisthreadshow,andrefute,ProfTamanaha'spoint
aboutjudgesdisputingthattheyallowtheirpersonal/politicalpreferencestoinfluence
outcomes.Howisthateveryoneinthisthread(IassumeeveryonehasaJDorisinlaw
school,orpolisci(butmaybethat'snotafairassumption))issoupsetbyPosner'sputative
twisting(orwhatever)ofthe"law."Mypointisthatlawyers(andthisincludesthejudges)
havebeeninstilledwiththissensewhatis"law"andwhatisnt"law"andwhatPosneris
doingisnot"law"properlyconceivedbecausehe'snotplayingbytherulesofthegame.To
getatinadifferent,maybemorecoherentway(hey,it'slate),thereissomeseriousself
rationalizationgoingoninthejudge'smindbecausetheideaofajdugedecidingcasesby
personalpreferencesrunsupagainstthejudicialarchetypethatweareinstilledwithinlaw
schoolwherewelearnthelawbyreading...judges'opinons.Thislastpointcouldbe
developedbetter,butIquit,fornow... MarkTushnet,Whythe
#postedby Anonymous:1:16AM ConstitutionMatters(Yale
UniversityPress2010)

Bottomlineforme:Judgesaregrantedthepowertheyexercisebysocietyonthe
presumptionthattheywillbeimpartialumpires,implementingtherulestheelected
brancheshavecreated.Totheextentthattheyareseenasmaking,ratherthan
implementing,policy,theyforfietthispresumption,andtheirexerciseofpowerbecomes
illegitmateinthepubliceye.

Astheperceptiongrowsthattheyexerciseillegitmatepower,thepressurebuildstotake
thatpoweraway,ortolegitimizeitbysubjectingthejudiciarytothesamesortofpublic,
policypreferencebasedselectionthatthelegislativeandexecutivebranchesarechosen
by.

Inotherwords,ifjudgesdon'twanttoberelentlesslygrilledontheirpolicypreferences
beforebeingconfirmed,andtobesubjectforremovalbasedonrulings,notmisconduct,
they'dbetteratleasttrytocreatetheillusionthatthey'renotjustusingthelawasan
excusetoimplementtheirownpersonalpreferences.

Posnermaybefrankaboutwhathedoes,butwhathedoesunderminesthelegitimacyof IanAyresandBarry
Nalebuff:Lifecycle
hisownoffice.
Investing:ANew,Safe,and
#postedby Brett:7:10AM AudaciousWaytoImprove
thePerformanceofYour
RetirementPortfolio(Basic
Books,2010)
CalvinTerBeeksaid...

Perhapsmostimportantly,Posner'spragmatismisn'tgettingafairshakehere.Itisn't
simplyajudgeinvokinghisownpersonalpreferencesandthenwritinganopiniontojustify
https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 7/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
simplyajudgeinvokinghisownpersonalpreferencesandthenwritinganopiniontojustify TheLawsofChange
thatinlegaljargon.Animportantpointismadein"Law,Pragmatism,andDemocracy"
Posnerwrites(andIparaphrase)thatifajudgeisfacedwithwhetherthereis14thAm
SDPrighttoassistedsuicide,thejudgeshouldratherthan"inhaletheintoxicatingvapors
ofconsttheory"(irememberthatnuggetverbatim!)he(she!)shouldfamiliarizehimself
withrelevantsocialscienceresearchanddeterminewhetheritisgoodpolicy.

Apartperhapsfromlegalproceduralquestions,theunaccountableCourtshavenobusiness
whatsoeversettingpolicyinaRepublic.Weelecttheothertwobranchestodosoandcan
reversetheirdecisionsinthenextelection.Thisisespeciallythecasewheninterpreting
theConstitution,whichcannotbeeasilychangedbythecitizenry.
JackM.Balkin,TheLawsof
ProfessorLevinsonbemoansthefactthatthepopularwillreflected2006electionsdidnot Change:IChingandthe
reachthePresidency.Perhaps,thisfrustrationgivesyouamerehintoftheoutragemany PhilosophyofLife(2d
conservativesfeelwhenweseealeftistCourtsemipermanentlyrewritetheConstitution Edition,SybilCreekPress
toplacetheirpolicypreferencesintothelawoftheland. 2009)

Tomymind,thisisabetterwaytoapproachjudgingratherthanajudgeinthe
Scalia/Thomasveintoarticulatehispositionthatthereisnosuchrightinlegaljargonor,
fromtheotherendofthespectrum,aBrennan/Marshalldressinguphispolitical
preferencesinlawyerstermsofart.

Thewrappinginwhichanopinionispresentedisunimportant.Whatiscriticalisthe
consistentapplicationofjudicialmodesty.TheCourthasnopowerundertheConstitution
toinventnewrights.Eitherarightisenumeratedoritisonelongrecognizedbysociety.

The"pragmatism"offeredbyPosnerisinrealityanenormouspowergrabbythejudiciary.
AndasTomPainecorrectlyobserved,absolutepowercorruptsabsolutely.Thecorruption
hasreachedsuchanextentinthejudiciarythatjuristslikePosnerpubliclyproclaimtheir
thattheywillabusetheirpowertoimplementanypolicypreferencetheyplease.Under
theseconditions,Ihavelessandlesssympathyfortheconceptof"judicialindependence"
toexercisesuchpower.
#postedby BartDePalma:8:41AM

BrianZ.Tamanaha,Beyond
theFormalistRealistDivide:
Anne: TheRoleofPoliticsin
Judging(Princeton
YoumightwanttoreadtheGovernmentresponsetothePadillaoutrageousgovernment UniversityPress2009)
conductmotiontodismiss,particularlypages910.
ARighttoDiscriminate?
The11thCircuit,underwhichthiscaseisbeingtried,heldinthecaseUSv.Matta,937
F.2d567(11thCir.1991)thatallegedtortureofthedefendantbyUSMarshalsduringthe
extraditionofdefendantfromHondurasdidnotprovideabasistodismissdefendant's
criminalindictment.Inthiscase,the11thCircuitadoptedthereasoningofthe7thCircuit,
thattheproperremedyinthesecasesisacivilcauseofactionagainstthealleged
perpetratorsoftheabuse.

Intheirreplybrief,thedefensecompletelyignoresthedispositiveMattaholdingand
insteadmisleadinglyarguesthatthePadillaallegationsarewithoutprecedent.

Thespankingyouwerehearingwasthegovernmentlayingonthelegalpaddle.Whatyou AndrewKoppelmanand
heardfromthedefensewassquealingandbeggingforahearing. TobiasBarringtonWolff,A
#postedby BartDePalma:8:51AM RighttoDiscriminate?:How
theCaseofBoyScoutsof
Americav.JamesDale
WarpedtheLawofFree
Association(YaleUniversity
@Bart:We'llsee...Don'twanttopollutethisthreadanyfurhterandingeneral:Istopped
Press2009)
givingsubstansiveanswerstoyourdisingeniouswayofreasoning.
#postedby Anne:9:01AM TheTheConstitutionin
2020

BartDepalma:"TheCourthasnopowerundertheConstitutiontoinventnewrights.Either
arightisenumeratedoritisonelongrecognizedbysociety."

Sotounderstandthis,ifajudgepassesanopinionwhichseemstograntarightnot
enumeratedintheconstitution,itsokayifitisarightthatsocietyhasalreadyrecognized
forsomeperiodoftime.

Wouldn'titbeactuallyimpartialforajudgenottorecognizethe'rightslongacknowledged
bysociety'inanopinion,andinsteadlettheaforementionedotherbranchesof JackM.BalkinandRevaB.
governmenttoenumeratethoserightsjusttomakesurethattheyareactually Siegel,TheConstitutionin
recognizedbysocietyandnotjustintheopinionofonejudge? 2020(OxfordUniversity
Press2009)
#postedby bitswapper:9:44AM

bitswappersaid...

BartDepalma:"TheCourthasnopowerundertheConstitutiontoinventnewrights.Either
arightisenumeratedoritisonelongrecognizedbysociety."

Sotounderstandthis,ifajudgepassesanopinionwhichseemstograntarightnot
enumeratedintheconstitution,itsokayifitisarightthatsocietyhasalreadyrecognized
forsomeperiodoftime.

Limitingyourselftowellestablishedrightsrecognizedbysocietyisthecompromisecourts
cameupwithtodeterminewhichunenumeratedrightsarebeingreferredtointhevarious
catchallprovisionsoftheConstitutionwithoutdivergingintoimposingtheirownpersonal
policypreferencesintotheConstitution.

Wouldn'titbeactuallyimpartialforajudgenottorecognizethe'rightslongacknowledged
https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 8/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
Wouldn'titbeactuallyimpartialforajudgenottorecognizethe'rightslongacknowledged
bysociety'inanopinion,andinsteadlettheaforementionedotherbranchesof HeatherK.Gerken,The
governmenttoenumeratethoserightsjusttomakesurethattheyareactually DemocracyIndex:WhyOur
recognizedbysocietyandnotjustintheopinionofonejudge? ElectionSystemIsFailing
andHowtoFixIt(Princeton
UniversityPress2009)
Ifthereisuncertaintyoverwhetherarightis"wellestablished,"thedefaultrulingshould
alwaysbetoreferthemattertotheelectedbranches.

Polls,foreignlawandthesucharenotevidenceoflongestablishedrightsinAmerica.
#postedby BartDePalma:10:17AM

Tom,

ThanksforaskingmewhatImeanbytheruleoflawIwrotethebookontheruleoflaw
(literally,pardonthepun),whichyoucanfindinthelinkinthetext.Althoughithas
several(oraclusterof)meanings,inthecontextofjudgingitmeans,ataminimum,that
judgesreasonwitharuleboundorientation.

Thekeypropositionyouquestionisnumber6:whydoescertainty,predictability,and
equalityofapplicationbreakdown,youask.Theproblemisthatdifferentjudgeswillhave
differentviewsofwhatisreasonable(whichPosnerexplicitlygrantsintheinterview).A
personcannotknowinadvancewhichjudgewillbeassignedtothecaseifthingsgobadly, MaryDudziak,Exporting
sothatpersonwillhavelesscertaintyaboutthelikelyinterpretationandapplicationofthe AmericanDreams:
legalrules(hencereducingpredictability).Equalityofapplicationwillsufferbecausejudges ThurgoodMarshall'sAfrican
willhavedifferentviewsaboutwhatisreasonable,sosimilarlysituatedpeoplewillbe Journey(OxfordUniversity
subjecttodifferentrulings. Press2008)

Calvin,

MydescriptionofPosner'sapproachisbasedonareadingofanumberofhisbooksand
articles,andcanbeconfirmedbylisteningtotheinterview.

Butyouarecorrectthatpragmaticadjudicationhasnotreceivedafulldefenseinthispost.
Aconsistentpragmatist(andhereIagreewithPosner)mustjudgetheattractivenessof
pragmaticadjudicationbyevaluatingthebenefitsofthisapproachagainstitsnegative
consequences.Inthispost,Ihaveemphasizedsome(thoughnotall)ofthenegative
consequences,buthavesaidlittleaboutthebenefits.Themainbenefitisthatpragmatic
adjudicationwill(arguably)havefewerbadresultsinindividualcases,ifonlybecause
seekinggoodresultsispreciselytheobjectiveofthisapproach.Whilethismaybecorrect
(althoughIhavedoubtsaboutthisbecausethereisinevitabledisagreementaboutwhat
whatisagoodresult)mypointisthatthisbenefitcomesattoohighacost.

Robert,
DavidLuban,LegalEthics
Youarecorrectthatthereisapotentialrecursiveness,inthatsharedinterpretationsofthe andHumanDignity
lawmustcomefromsharedvalues.Tobreakoutofthis,onemustrecognizetwodifferent (CambridgeUniv.Press
typesofsharedvalues.Posneristalkingaboutsharedsocial/political/ideologicalvaluesof 2007)
thejudges.WhenIrefertosharedlegalinterpretations,Iamsuggestingthatthelegal
traditionorlegalcultureisitselfasharedbodyofconventionalunderstandings,andajudge
orientedtointerpretingthelawisinthefirstinstancedrawinguponthissharedbodyof
meaningtocometosharedlegalinterpretations.Iamnotdenyingthatsharedvaluesalso
comeintoplay(indeedthisalsoinfluencestheconventionsofthelegalculture),butmy
argumentisthatsharedlegalinterpretationscanbeproducedbytheconventionsofthe
legaltradition.Distinguishingtheinfluenceofthesetwobodiesofsharedmeaningis
complicated,andIplantopostmoreonthisinthefuture.

Brian
#postedby BrianTamanaha:10:56AM

ifyou're"unimpressed"byPosner,Ithinkyouneedtoreadmore.Agreewihthimornot,
heisanimpressiveintellect.

IsupposeIcouldalwaysreadmore,but"Posnerlonga,vitabrevis",astheysay.It'slikea
novelifyouaren'thookedbypage50100,you'renotlikelytoenjoytherest. IanAyres,Super
Crunchers:WhyThinking
I'munlikelytoagreewithhiminanycase.IbasicallyagreewithBrett(slightlyedited)that ByNumbersistheNew
"Judgesaregrantedthepowertheyexercisebysocietyonthepresumptionthattheywill WaytobeSmart(Bantam
beimpartialumpires....Totheextentthattheyareseenasmaking,ratherthan 2007)
implementing,policy,theyforfietthispresumption,andtheirexerciseofpowerbecomes
illegitmateinthepubliceye."

Thatdoesn'tmeanIignoretheforceoftheLegalRealistclaim.Butthathastobe
tempered,orconstrained,bythefactorsProf.Tamanahamentionsinhisresponsejust
above.Absentthoseconstraints,nobodywillseejudgesasimpartial.

IdoubtanyonedoesseePosnerasimpartial.Thepassagewhichreallystandsoutinthe
originalpostisthis:AverysubstantialnumberoflawyersbelievethatChiefJudgePosner
routinelydoesnotpaysufficientattentiontothefacts,orleavesoutcrucialfacts,inorder
toreachdesiredconclusions...."Ican'timagineamoredamningcriticismofajudgeorhis
philosophy.
#postedby MarkField:11:18AM

Iamacareerlawclerk.Iworkinthesausagefactory.Havingdraftedcountlessopinions
andworkedwithmanyajudge,Imakethefollowingobservation:JudgePosner'sgreatest
JackM.Balkin,James
sinisarticulatingtherealityofjudging.
Grimmelmann,EddanKatz,
#postedby SamIAm:11:42AM
https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 9/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
NimrodKozlovski,Shlomit
WagmanandTalZarsky,
eds.,Cybercrime:Digital
BartDepalma:"Limitingyourselftowellestablishedrightsrecognizedbysocietyisthe CopsinaNetworked
compromisecourtscameupwithtodeterminewhichunenumeratedrightsarebeing Environment(N.Y.U.Press
2007)
referredtointhevariouscatchallprovisionsoftheConstitutionwithoutdiverginginto
imposingtheirownpersonalpolicypreferencesintotheConstitution."

Howshouldonedefinepointatwhichajudgehasgonebeyondrightsunenumeratedyet
pointedatbyconstitutionalcatchallsandintoimposingtheirpersonalpolicies?Thisseems
tobeonethingthatPosnerislookingat.

"Polls,foreignlawandthesucharenotevidenceoflongestablishedrightsinAmerica."

Foreignlaws,obviouslynot.Properlyconductedpolls,however,actuallyareevidenceof
whatpeoplethink.Whilenotalwaysconclusive,theargumentthattheyarebetter
evidencethantheopinionsofliberal/conservativejudgesiscompelling,sincepollshave
bothtrackrecordsofaccuracyaswellasscientificallyverifiablemethod,andtheyare
intendedtoreflectpublicopinion.
#postedby bitswapper:1:50PM

bitswappersaid... JackM.BalkinandBeth
SimoneNoveck,TheState
BartDepalma:"Limitingyourselftowellestablishedrightsrecognizedbysocietyisthe ofPlay:Law,Games,and
compromisecourtscameupwithtodeterminewhichunenumeratedrightsarebeing VirtualWorlds(N.Y.U.Press
referredtointhevariouscatchallprovisionsoftheConstitutionwithoutdiverginginto 2006)
imposingtheirownpersonalpolicypreferencesintotheConstitution."
SameSex,Different
Howshouldonedefinepointatwhichajudgehasgonebeyondrightsunenumeratedyet States
pointedatbyconstitutionalcatchallsandintoimposingtheirpersonalpolicies?

Youcanlookatwhetherthelawsofthelandhaverecognizedthisrightoveralongperiod
oftime.

MarriageisjustsuchalongstandinglegalrightwhichtheCourtlaterinterpretedtobe
amongtheunenumeratedrightsprotectedbytheConstitution.

"Polls,foreignlawandthesucharenotevidenceoflongestablishedrightsinAmerica."
AndrewKoppelman,Same
Foreignlaws,obviouslynot.Properlyconductedpolls,however,actuallyareevidenceof
Sex,DifferentStates:When
whatpeoplethink. SameSexMarriagesCross
StateLines(YaleUniversity
Totheextenttheyareevenaccurate,pollsatbestareasnapshotofthepopulationatany Press2006)
onetime.Assuch,theyarenotevidenceoflongstandingrights.Thecourtsshouldnotbe
writingthevagariesofpublicopinionasreflectedlessthanaccuratelybyapollinthethe
Constitution.
#postedby BartDePalma:2:40PM

ProfessorTamanaha:Distinguishingtheinfluenceofthesetwobodiesofsharedmeaningis
complicated,andIplantopostmoreonthisinthefuture.

IknowI'mnotaloneinlookingforwardtothat.Also,Isurehopeitdidn'tseemlikeIwas
assertingyoudidn'tappreciatetheneedtodistinguishtheconceptsorthedifficulties
therein.ImeantonlythatIhavenotyetcometoanysatisfactoryresolutioninmyown
mind.
#postedby RobertLink:4:35PM

Bart:Polls,foreignlawandthesucharenotevidenceoflongestablishedrightsinAmerica. BrianTamanaha,Lawasa
MeanstoanEnd
Bart,wouldyouallowforanexceptiontoyourstatementinthatEnglishCommonlawis (CambridgeUniversity
thefoundationofallourlawandlegaltraditions,hencetoatleastthatextent"foreign Press2006)
law"isevidenceofsaidlongestablishedrights?

Asforpolls,asIalludedtoelsewhere,evenifapoll"shows"piequalsthreethatwon't
makeitso,notevenifthepollisoftheelectoratebeingpolledforaConstitutional
Amendmenttothateffect.This,inturn,exemplifiestheprimaryinherentweaknessof
democracy,againstwhichthecourtsaremeanttoguard,agreed?
#postedby RobertLink:7:58PM

RobertLinksaid...

Bart:Polls,foreignlawandthesucharenotevidenceoflongestablishedrightsinAmerica.

Bart,wouldyouallowforanexceptiontoyourstatementinthatEnglishCommonlawis
thefoundationofallourlawandlegaltraditions,hencetoatleastthatextent"foreign
law"isevidenceofsaidlongestablishedrights?
SanfordLevinson,Our
Youhaveagoodpointthere.TotheextentthatourConstitutionisbasedonEnglish UndemocraticConstitution
commonlawrights,examiningtheextentofthoserightsmaybeatoolourcourtswould (OxfordUniversityPress
wanttouse. 2006)
#postedby BartDePalma:9:41AM

https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 10/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

BartDepalma:"Assuch,theyarenotevidenceoflongstandingrights."

Whatwouldyousayisevidenceoflongstandingrights?Justprecedentofwrittenlegal
opinions?Howmuchtimemustpassforrighttograduatetothestatusoflongstanding?
Shouldjudgessimplygrantarightunderthebanner"itslongstanding"?
#postedby bitswapper:11:29AM

Afewcomments:

Younotethatstudiesthatshowcorrelationsbetweenjudges'personalattitudesandtheir
decisionsalsoshowahighdegreeofunanimitybetweenjudges,andgoontosaythat
thesefactsareequallycompatiblewitheitherPosner'sview,sharedbyAmericanrealists,
thatjudgesdon'treallyformalisticallyapplytherulesnomatterwhattheysay,andyour
("commonsense"?)viewthat,well,theyreallydomostofthetime.However,itseemsto
methatonlytheformerhypothesisisreallycompatiblewithboththesefactsthelatter MarkGraber,DredScott
wouldactuallypredictnosignficantcorrelationbetweenajudge'sviewsandherdecisions. andtheProblemof
It'sworthnotingthatLeiterbelievesthatthedisagreementbetweenHLAHartandthe ConstitutionalEvil
Americanrealistsboilsdowntobasicallythisissue. (CambridgeUniversity
Press2006)
Secondly,it'sobviousthatthecanonsofconstructionandsoondifferfromcountryto
country,butweseethatthelegalenvironmentinmostAnglophonecountriesispretty
similar(except,ofcourse,whereit'sdifferent)moresimilarthanwe'dexpect,given
centuriesdivergenceinlaws.I'dexpandonthis,butthecommentisalreadygettingtoo
prolix.

Also,accordingtoLeiter'sblogpostonthis,theeventwasorganizedbyboththeFederalist
SocietyandtheAmericanConstitutionSocietyatU.Chicago.Inoticethatsomeofthe
questionersactuallywereateensybitsharp.("What'sthepointofalegislature,exceptto
confirmjudges?")
#postedby Raghav:3:24AM

thankssomuchilikeverysomuchyourpost


JackM.Balkin,ed.,What
Roev.WadeShouldHave
Said(N.Y.U.Press2005)
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https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 12/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper

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obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukupedalaman
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukupedalamansumatra
Obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukujawa
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbals
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukuminang
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukusunda
Obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukuirian
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukudayak
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukukubu
obattradisionalkankerservikssuku
obatkankerservikstradisionalherbalsukubugis
obatherbalherpesgenitaldompo
obatherbalherpesgenitaldomposimplex
#postedby teguhpriyanto:8:59PM

Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
Obatkankerserviks
#postedby Obatkankerserviksmanjur:5:03PM

A
B
C
C
C
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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C

C
C
C
C
C
C
#postedby teguhpriyanto:2:04PM

C
C
C
C
C
C
C
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
BE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
#postedby teguhpriyanto:2:04PM

`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
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05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
#postedby NamakuKeren:5:31PM

TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
#postedby Obatkankerserviksmanjur:2:16AM

TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
https://balkin.blogspot.com.br/2006/12/judgeposnersseductiverealismand.html 19/20
05/04/2017 Balkinization:JudgePosner'sSeductiveRealismandPragmaticAdjudicationBewarethePiedPiper
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
TE
#postedby Obatkankerserviksmanjur:2:16AM

ObatKencingNanah
ObatSipilis
ObatHerbalKutilKelamin
ObatKencingNanah
ObatKencingNanahAmpuh
ObatKelaminKeluarNanah
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ObatKencingNanahDiApotik
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ObatKencingNanah3HariSembuh
ObatKencingNanah3HariSembuh
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PenyakitKencingNanah
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PenyakitKencingNanah
PenyakitKencingNanah
PenyakitKencingNanahPria
PenyakitKencingNanahPria
PenyakitKencingNanahPria
PenyakitKencingNanahPria
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#postedby FanMinZheng:5:19AM

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