Rethinking Bacteria and Genetics

Guest: Sayer Ji

The contents of presentation are for informational

purposes only and are not intended to be a
substitute for professional medical advice,
diagnosis, or treatment. This presentation does not
provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician or other
qualified health provider with any questions you
may have regarding a medical condition.

Dr. Kellman: Hello. Im Dr. Raphael Kellman, the founder of the Kellman
Center for Integrative and Functional Medicine and the author of my latest
book, The Microbiome Diet. We want to welcome all of you to our second
Microbiome Summit: The Missing Link to Improving Your Health and Healing
Disease. So Im so thrilled to welcome our great guest, Sayer Ji.

Sayer Ji: Thank you for having me again on this summit.

Dr. Kellman: So let me tell you a little bit about Sayer Jis fascinating
biography. Hes widely recognized as a researcher, an author, a lecturer. Hes
an advisory board member of the National Health Foundation and the founder
of the worlds most widely referenced, evidence-based natural health resource
of its kind. He founded GreenMedInfo.com in 2008 in order to provide the
world an open access, evidence-based resource supporting natural and
functional and integrative medicine and its modalities.

Sayers work has been published in various online and print publications
including Truth-Out, the Well Being Journal, Mercola.com. The Journal of
Gluten Sensitivity, and many more. Sayer attended Rutgers University where
he studied under the American philosopher, Dr. Bruce W. Wilshire, with a
focus on the philosophy of science. Thats what I did, Sayer Ji. I studied
philosophy of science, so we already have a great connection.
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He received his BA degree in philosophy in 1995. In 1996, following residency
at the Zen Mountain Monastery in Upstate New York, he embarked on a five-
year journey of service as a counselor, teacher, and wilderness therapy
specialist for various organizations serving underprivileged and adjudicated
population from the Princeton Blairstown Center in New Jersey and the
Mayhew Foundation and Eckert Youth Alternatives in Florida.

So welcome, Sayer. Its really a pleasure to have you again on this summit.

Sayer Ji: Thank you. Its an honor to be part of this summit. Such an exciting
topic.

Dr. Kellman: Sayer, so what are some of the most amazing discoveries of the
past few years related to the microbiome? And Im very interested in this type
of question because people take a different perspective.

Sayer Ji: Yes. Well, its a great question. One of the most amazing things is
just generally speaking, the research has scaled fromthe year 2000 is when I
define there had been a massive shift in the focus and attention on this topic.
You had maybe 70 studies published in year 2000. Now, this year, well have
about 7200 studies published. So youve seen the sheer research on a topic
scale. And with that wave of research has come with it all types of paradigm-
shifting discoveries that I am just amazed to report on.

Now, to me the most fundamental and in a way eye-opening culmination of

this is the discovery of the indispensable role of the virome in human health.
And were talking about all the many millions of viruses that have been
discovered in and on the human body that now were realizing are
indispensable to sustain our health.

Dr. Kellman: Its absolutely true. There was an exhibit at the Museum of
Natural History that visually displayed exactly what youre saying that theres
so many layers upon layers upon layers of ecosystems that its just mind-
boggling. What youre bringing up is phenomenal. I think that if people would
see that movie theyll get a visual image of exactly what youre saying.

Sayer Ji: One of the most fascinating of all portals into this topic is actually
provided by Herbert Virgin, Ph.D., who if you go to PubMed and you look up
the word virome, youll see the majority of the papers were actually written by
him. He did a lecture entitled The Mammalian Virome, which you can get on
YouTube, which is so radical.

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Basically, in a nutshell, what he found in his many years of research on the
virome is that, infected with what are known to be chronic viruses, some of
[inaudible], in one study, he references that the infection with the viruses
and theres probably about 13-14 of them that most Americans have and
worldwide you could probably say the sameit protects, in this particular
model, infection from what are theoretically deadly bacteria several orders of
magnitude beyond what would otherwise be the case.

So in other words, viruses help to modulate the immune system in such a way
that they actually protect against deadly infection. And this is a discovery, as
you know, which undermines some of the basic tenets of germ theory.

Dr. Kellman: Its fascinating. First of all, its amazing that you used the word
portal. I use the same thing. To have this portal to see this unseen world, and
its a game-changer. I think it transforms how we see the world that were so
familiar with. Its very interesting about the viruses.

So what are the implications for when people take anti-viral medicines, for
example, if they have herpetic viral pathology or if they have EBV, Epstein-
Barr virus, which is exaggerated? Whats the implications of this?

Sayer Ji: Well, thats such a great question because, as we all know, these
viruses have been identified with sort of this inexorable lethality that you
either have an infection or you dont. If you do have it, well, then youre at
greatly increased risk for morbidity and mortality. And what Skip Virgin has
discovered in his research is that the immune system is actually dependent
upon the viruses in our body. And in fact, without the presence of some of
these viruses, the immunophenotype as its calledso the relationship
between the genotype and the phenotype in the immune system cant be
correctly balanced.

So despite all of the propaganda, largely supported by what is a highly

aggressive vaccination program, some viruses are essential for reducing the
risk of very lethal diseases. Like, for example, measles has recently been
identified to protect against cardiovascular mortality. In fact, if anyones
looking for more research, GreenMedInfo indexes research on the benefits of
measles. And this is all extracted from the National Library of Medicine.

So when you compare that research, which you never hear reported in the
mainstream. In fact, ever since the Disney measles outbreak, weve been told
that measles is a deadly disease, not a benign childhood disease that people
used to have parties to infect their children with so that they would have
lifelong [inaudible]. Were being told that these viruses are absolutely deadly.
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In fact, If you dont vaccinate your children with [inaudible] vaccines like
MMR, well, then youre actually doing violence to herd immunity. And maybe
youre harming your neighbors. And thats a type of propaganda that runs
diametrically opposed to research. The microbiome is revealing to us now that
essentially certain viruses that we once identified as deadly are essential for
our health.

Dr. Kellman: So, Sayer, obviously, this is a complex issue. How do we now
explain the fact that vaccinations seemingly help in terms of the decline of
infectious diseases when vaccinations first came out?

Now, of course, you can interpret it that there were other factors that were
changing at that time as well. But do you think that theres something still,
nevertheless, something potentially harmful when the viruses are out of
balance with each other? And if so, is there a role of vaccinations to mitigate
the potential negative effects? And, of course, are there any negative effects
you mentioned all the positive, but what about the opposite side?

Sayer Ji: When we look at the microbiome, we look at its role in basically
constituting our immunity. Clearly, its not an absence of a vaccine that
causes the breakdown of the microbiome. So we are starting to understand
that the primal roots, so to speak, of our immunity is actually the very
bacteria, germs, and fungi, even parasitic worms like helminths that are
essential for creating the type of balance necessary to maintain health and
wellness.

So really, thats one of the most amazing things about this research is its
really undermined in one fell swoop the entire justification for a neurotic
obsession with vaccines and that they are somehow going to magically
eradicate fecal contamination of the water in the third world, [inaudible]
absence of vitamin A and vitamin D, for example, and all the toxicant
exposures that you and I know are immunotoxic. Vaccines dont take care of
those issues, and they never have.

Dr. Kellman: No, no. Absolutely. Theres a book by Leonard Sagan titled The
Health of Nations that basically is saying pretty much the same thing that
youre saying. And he actually shows graphically the fact that many of these
diseases were significantly declining and there was only a slight increase of an
improvement with the use of antibiotics and vaccinations. So thats a book
that really supports what youre saying.

He adds one thing, by the way: the role of education and also the feeling that
we can control to some degree our lives and that were not just at the whim of
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causes that we cant do anything about. So the belief in ourselves. So what
youre saying is so true.

But heres the question. The bottom line is in those days the conditions were
not ideal. Microbiomes were not balanced. Viral microbiomes were not
balanced. That being the case, acutely, what could you do other than
vaccinating the population so that we can overcome an acute crisis and then
at some point deal with the bigger picture?

Sayer Ji: Well, for me, Ive spent so many years, thousands of hours
researching the literature on vaccination, and its still shocking not a single
placebo-controlled study on any vaccination, meaning theyve never used
saline. Theyve never done a naturalistic study comparing vaccinated and
unvaccinated populations. So the dearth of research in a presumably
evidence-based medical system to support these sorts of myths about vaccines
saving millions of lives, I personally was shocked that there wasnt research
really to support that.

So, for me, it makes more sense now when I look at the primary layer of
research and the microbiome [inaudible] immunology research, its clear to me
today that fundamental problem is that we are dealing with a sort of
unnaturalnatural has become a curse word among pro-vaccination folks and
people who are pro Pharmaextremely miraculous but delicate system which
is our body and ultimately, again, what the research on the microbiome
reveals is we have sort of contend with the protein coding genes and the
genome, the 20,000 or so genes that we thought were the Holy Grail.

We can find the protein coding sequences and then we can find the mystery,
the answer to what causes disease and how to cure it. Well, as you know, at
the end of the Human Genome Project, they finally came up with a draft after
2000. They discovered there werent nearly enough genes to explain the
existence of the human body. And now, we know that the majority of whats
transcribed from the genome is like 98% or more is RNAs. And these have
indispensable roles to play in health, but theyre so much harder to
understand because theyre so ephemeral and complex.

So were just starting to realize that our contribution medically to even the
protein coding genes is infinitesimal relative to the contribution of the
microbiome. Theres about 4.2 million protein coding genes contributed by the
bacteria, viruses, fungi in our body. And so, thats what were starting to
realize.

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So if the germs, for example, constitute us, eclipse our own contribution 99
times over, and then you look at our actual genome and you realize 8% of the
genetic sequences are retroviral. And you start realizing, wait, wait a second.
How are we composed of viruses? Our very genome was created after millions
of years of incorporation of their information. And yet, were still claiming that
these lethal entities that exist outside us, that we know viruses arent even
defined as living in a sense of cellular life. They require a host to infect. And
quite frankly, what they do is they co-opt an endosomal pathway in all cells
which produce these things called microvesicles.

So technically, viruses arent other. They actually have to take host proteins
and lipids just for them to exist and transmit across space and time. So there
is no such thing as an external lethal viral force. Its completely a myth or
projection. So when we really look at what were talking about here and what
are vaccine-preventable diseases, they fall apart when we really look at the
actual biology and science.

Dr. Kellman: I want you to comment on this idea that theres no such thing
as bad guys, because what youre saying is that all viruses are good. Theyre
so necessary. So if you could just mention something about that, it would be
so helpful.

Sayer Ji: Yeah, absolutely. Because, yes, I dont want to misrepresent what I
think the research says on what a virus is, meaning viruses are intrinsically
neutral in a certain respect. What they do is they actually enable horizontal
transfer of extremely important information. What that means is the genome
in the body takes literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years for a
gene to change and then get passed down through the germ line. So were
talking about glacial-paced evolution.

Now, in a real world, when the environment can shift overnight, that is not
going to confer the type of flexibility needed to survive. And so, what viruses
have enabled species to do is to transfer information horizontally. Now, that
could go from, for example, just a gut bacteria is capable of transferring
information from the environment into our guts, for example. And over time,
some of the information could actually get transferred into the cells of our
body and then be carried down into our progeny.

So what were talking about is a system in place that enables information

transfer at what is relatively light speed when you look at the transfer of
information through the primary sequences of DNA in the human genome.
And in some cases, the information may not be helpful. And so, there is the

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potential for misinformation, and thats where viruses could potentially play
a role that is not positive.

But in general, we know that the research again that has been performed
primarily by Herbert Virgin shows that the virome and the viruses in our body
are essential for our health. And in fact, without those the balance of the
immune system, the two polescell-mediated Th1 and adaptive Th2cannot
perform optimally which will increase the risk of deadly infection and cancers.

So when we start seeing it in that light, then we start understanding, wow,

virusessome people define viruses as pieces of genetic information in search
of chromosomes. So they are almost like extra chromosomal parts of our
organism that are essential for our health and survivability as a species.

Dr. Kellman: Thats incredible. So in the end, its really all about DNA. That is
the sine qua non of life. And I think this is pretty much the bottom line of
what youre saying, and we should be quite careful about how we treat them.

Sayer Ji: Herbert Virgin has introduced a new term which is pro-virotics. We
all know about probiotics, but he suggests that given the research and its
implications, we should be looking at ways to support healthy viral
populations in the body. So in that context, suddenly, if you start thinking
about the way in which we perceive viruses, again, through pharmaceutical
interventions and/or vaccination as sort of the primary cause of disease, that
sort of flips the script upside down. And now, we have to allow for the
possibility that some of us have viral deficiency and that we actually need to
support the virome.

Dr. Kellman: Fascinating. By the way, for you folks listening to this, this is
one of the main purposes of this summit - to disseminate true information
and to show how this revolution in medicine is changing the bottom line in so
many ways. Thats a whole other topic. So thank you, Sayer, for being one of
those people to disseminate new information thats really going to turn our old
idea on its head.

And I know you agree with that. But that is the main purpose. And the bottom
line is its going to improve your health. And its going to improve significantly
the health of our society. So, Sayer, tell me something practical about pro-
virotics. What could people do to improve the viral ecosystem?

Sayer Ji: Well, whats so interestingits a great questionis that if you look
at the foods we eat and even things like sea water, they have a microbiome. In
fact, sea water has one of the densest populations of viruses discovered. Now,
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these viruses, by the way, arent just pieces of genetic information without an
actual encapsulation. Theyre encapsulated often in the proteins of the hosts.
So that youre dealing with viruses that are found in foods, on foods, and that
they may actually contribute significantly to our health.

The challenge of course is complexity. And thats true for all of medicine.
Really, the discovery of the microbiome has made us have to pause in a
certain type of humility and awe because it is incalculably complex. And what
that has done essentially, and this is one of the major discoveries I feel that
the microbiome represents, is that until the discovery of the microbiome we
have been living in a sort of intellectual vacuum, meaning almost all the
literature that exists now medically speaking and a life scienceswere talking
about 26 million citations on PubMed alonedidnt account for the role of the
microbiome which was sort of invisible and standing on the sidelines. It was
there all the time.

So when we think about drug metabolism, we were thinking about traditional

pathways in a liver, etc. But nowhere was it taken into account the effects that
those drugs had on the microbiome, on the virome, on the mycome which is
the fungal populations, and ultimately the metabolites produced. And so, that
blind spot in some way has now invalidated the research that does exist. So
its almost as if we have to start back from ground zero.

Dr. Kellman: Wow. Its unbelievable that everything is being turned on its
head. So, again, would one of the ways of improving our viral microbiome be
drinking healthy sea water?

Sayer Ji: Well, thats interesting because there are folks who have advocated
sea water as sort of a medicinal supplement. For me, for example, now when I
think of eating good quality oysters from good water, I realize that that is a
whole universe of bacteria and viruses that Im consuming that, again, our
body co-evolved with theoretically and our species co-evolved with. That now
Im getting an influx of information, microorganisms, that may actually live on
in me. Its really quite a remarkable way of looking at it.

So, yes, I believe food actually in its most natural form possible would be an
ideal source of what they call pre-virotics. And in addition, actual viruses that
we may need for our health.

Dr. Kellman: So in other words, the advice that you would give people to
improve our viral microbiome would be basically the same advice that you
would give to people to how to improve their bacterial microbiome?

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Sayer Ji: Yeah, in fact, its interesting. Theres a whole category known as
bacteriophages. As you probably know, originally, when they were looking at
finding antibiotics, they were looking at these viruses because they are
natural. They target very specific bacteria, some of which can be harmful
when growing out of bounds opportunistically. And theyre only now going
back to them because of antibiotic resistance because the conventional
antibiotics not only dont work against things like methicillin-resistant staph,
but they feed them. They actually reduce the competitive commensals that
fight off these infections.

So the idea now is that bacteriophages which are viruses that actually live on
the raw material of our bacterial microbiome, they themselves will feed off of
certain bacteria. So technically, again, eating food thats living, cultured food,
would naturally have a whole array of beneficial viruses. And so, really, I think
it does boil back down to the complexity is so immense that we cant sit
around waiting for randomized clinical trials. Hopefully, therell be some good
ones in the pipeline.

In the meantime, we can go with what we know is true which is traditional

foods and traditional recipes are themselves what one might call epigenetic
inherited systems as essential to our health as the primary sequences of
protein coding genes in our DNA. And they have been, through this oral chain
of custody, passed down and assures our survival. But many of us have
eschewed it for better living through chemistry or through maybe not paying
attention to what grandmas saying or preparing for us. And so, I think these
traditions are fundamentally whats going to help us to maintain our optimal
health.

Dr. Kellman: Sayer, you said something. You said a word that was so
fascinating. You said that we have to have a sense of humility and awe.
Einstein said that the beginning of science is the sense or the feeling of awe
and how splendid life is and that its so beyond what people look at the world
that we see. Thats why I actually feel that people should actually have a
visual image to see what were talking about. And its going to change the
bottom line.

Also, unfortunately, people look at our world and its stale to them. Its stale.
But when we look into this new universe, its going to change everything.
Were literally going to have a new heaven and a new earth. That will inspire a
sense of awe that youre saying and Einstein is saying is the beginning of
science. So, Sayer, Im putting you in the same category as Einstein. Okay?

Sayer Ji: Well, I dont know if Im deserving, but its an honor. Thank you.
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Dr. Kellman: He would be the first one to say that thats true because he
really respected the intelligence and the possibilities of every human being
which is another point that I want to bring out and I want to get your
perspective on this is that one of the revolutions in the discovery of the
microbiome and now youre talking about the viral biome is that as opposed to
the old way of thinking in terms of evolution that we were just kind of victims.
The environment was changing and we were just waiting around to see who
would survive, survival of the fittest which then led to that we live in a cold,
brute, hostile world. And we have no internal power.

But now, what were seeingand this is the perspective I want to get from
youis that its actually the opposite. Whats really changing is whats
happening within us, and theres studies, by the way, to prove this that theres
more change in terms of DNA and mutations and flipping and transferring of
viruses and, again, also mutations that exceed whats happening out there. So
the real change is coming within us and that we are leading just like the
bacteria are self-directing and its seemingly like they have a concerted will.

That just like the bacteria are self-empowered and they create the change
based on the idea of biomimicry, we should now realize that thats who we are
as well. Tell me your opinion.

Sayer Ji: Well, I love it because it makes me think of a quote attributed to

Charles Darwin. Now, he may not have written it specifically, but I think his
work bears testimony to it, which is he is believed to have said, It is not the
strongest of the species that survives nor the most intelligent that survives.
Its the one thats most adaptable to change.

And to me, thats really what were seeing with the microbiome is that, again,
weve shifted from what I think is a glacial or eonic time scale of change where
we think, Oh, our genes determine our destiny, that whole fatalistic
inheritance view to one where we realize that in real time that GMO burger
that Im eating or this antibiotic that Im taking will have a direct impact on
what constitutes really the majority of what I am. Which, again, the bacteria,
viruses, fungi, these constitute ultimately the majority of the cells in my
body. And I need to respect and understand that.

So on another level, whats happening is that we now are seeing the

environment is actually as important to our health and well-being as whats
inside of our gut because there really isnt that much of a difference. In fact,
they shade into each other, and theyre dependent on one another exactly.

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And that opens up an entirely new ethical implication to what happens out
there. Lets say you shop at Whole Foods and try to insulate yourself from all
the chemicals that are being sprayed on the planet. Well, good luck, because
its not happening. Everything that happens out there will impact us on the
deepest level.

And even the notion that we get these gut feelings. The bacteria and viruses,
etc., in our gut do on a meta level, they sort of scale up to produce both
chemical and electromagnetic messages that we feel and feed into that are us,
as well. So in many ways, our very definition of what it is to be a human has
shifted entirely with the discovery of the microbiome because the boundaries
that we used to think were there are really not there anymore.

And hopefully, that will also make us more willing to embrace our
responsibility as stewards of the planet and of course to take very personally
what happens out there in what was formerly believed to be an inanimate
environment.

Dr. Kellman: Absolutely. And were part of a whole. The point is that we can
change. We have the power to change our environment. But would you agree
that we need to realize that we are directing or we have the possibility to direct
our evolution and our growth and that its not the environment, so to speak?
We were taught in the past that the rapid changes out there are causing our
development and our evolution.

Sayer Ji: Yeah, I think we have this opportunity now to take back control of
our health in a new way. Because, again, for me, when I think about what is
going to ensure my longevity, it comes down to the most basic principles of
clean air, clean water, clean food, a positive attitude. All these things are now
essential in determining our health destiny in a way that I dont think, again,
10 years ago it was possible to substantiate in a way that we can now with the
discovery of the microbiome.

Dr. Kellman: So before, you said that basically, in similar words, that the
discovery of the microbiome turns the germ theory on its head. Would you say
the same thing that it does the same to our old understanding of evolution?

Sayer Ji: Yeah, absolutely because, again, previous to the discovery of what I
would call almost permeability in our infrastructure, now we know that, yes,
the exposure to, say, the wrong type of food or the wrong microbiome Lets
say its a microbiome thats extracted from factory-farmed, animal-waste-
grown vegetables. Its just absolutely disgusting when you think about what
youre actually exposing yourself to. The fact that these animals were sick and
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they were traumatized and poisoned, and now youre going to consume the
microbiome from that animal. Imagine how that affects the mind-body
connection.

So were starting to understand that because theres permeability in what we

are, that in order to stay intact, we have to really be extremely aware about
what we are exposing ourselves to. So in many ways, the microbiome is really
both a blessing and a curse, but we can take on this responsibility and do
better together.

Dr. Kellman: And make it a blessing. We have that potential. To support what
youre saying, there was research that came out of the Albert Einstein College
of Medicine, and I know this because I went there to medical school. They
found that the rapid change, the mutations and the change of our DNA,
exceeds what you would expect that would be caused by the outer
environment, meaning that we ourselves with the assistance of bacteria and
viruses are making greater and faster changes than the amount of mutations
and changes that the environment is causing.

So, again, it turns everything on its head. Its very interesting research.

Sayer Ji: Yes, I agree. Because previous to this, one could always say, Well,
hermetically sealed within a nucleus of our germline cells is the key to our
health and our health destiny. And thats absolutely absurd now. We know
there is no such situation and theres permeability. And through epigenetic
changes and, again, the role of viruses, etc., we can change the health destiny
of all of our succeeding progeny into the infinite horizon based on what were
doing here and now.

So it actually adds a lot of responsibility to us but also gives us a lot of control

in a positive way.

Dr. Kellman: Yeah, folks, write this down. I think this is like the main point is
that if you combine what Sayer Ji just said now with what he said beforethe
possibility of the sense of awethe combination of the two would change our
lives and would change society. It would change the planet and bring us to a
better state of being. Its amazing that what a responsibility and yet an
incredible gift that we have to really make positive changes.

So, Sayer, thank you for contributing to this, and this is really one of the
purposes of the summit. And your work is really turning everything on its
head. Sayer Ji, could you just tell us a few practicalwell, youve been saying

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many practical things. But are there two or three very important take-home
messages that you want to leave us with?

Sayer Ji: Yes, thank you. Well, yes. Im so focused on really basic things when
it comes to translating the information into health benefits. So one of them is
water. Im still blown away. I go visit New York, go to a fine restaurant. Go out
of my way to find organic and allergy-free options, and theyll serve me tap
water. And sometimes youll ask if they even have bottled distilled. Youll pay a
premium for it, but its essential. And they wont even have it.

Im amazed because this is one of the front lines of where things can go really
bad in our microbiome is the amount of disinfectant byproducts alone in
municipal water. Theres over 600 different toxicants that have been identified.
And each one of them is going to have a dramatic effect on the healthy
microbiome. So make water a priority. Its very difficult in this day and age but
make sure its from a mineral-rich, natural spring source thats not
contaminated. And if youre going to do RO at least make sure you reintroduce
minerals in and that its truly toxic and free. So thats number one.

Dr. Kellman: So should people by a filter. Is there certain bottled waters that
people can get at health food stores that you would recommend?

Sayer Ji: Yeah, theres a lot of them. Mountain Valley is one of the more well-
known brands.

Dr. Kellman: Say the name again.

Sayer Ji: Mountain Valley because they really go out of their way to put it in
glass. Honestly, though, I think that when it comes to the taste and the purity,
Evian water is still one of my favorites, even though its in plastic. I admit I
dont like that, but it just doesnt taste plastic-y. Everyones going to have to
find their own particular best solution. But the point is, is that the water were
exposed towe are 99% water molecules by numberis so important because
it carries energy, information.

In fact, theres research now indicating water is actually an instrument of

biosemiosis or carries biological information just like the nucleotide sequences
in DNA. And so, you can imagine getting de-structured, toxicant-filled,
demineralized water and what that does to your health, much less your
microbiome. So, again, make water a priority.

Dr. Kellman: Are there any filters or purification systems that you would
recommend?

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Sayer Ji: Theres only a few that are reallytheyre all using the same
technology also. You go for the major brands that do RO. Theyre using a
Japanese membrane that you can get in a system like AquaTru weve reported
on which is a pretty affordable RO system. But again, RO has its limits. Its
just a several micron-wide pourer that youre filtering your water through.
Youre still not getting water thats structured the way nature intended. So
spring water would, therefore, be the best approach.

Dr. Kellman: But is reverse osmosis, RO, the only approach to purification
and filtration?

Sayer Ji: Oh, no. Distillation is actually I think an excellent alternative. I used
a distiller for many years, but you do have to restructure the water, again,
using a mineral source like the Great Salt Lake in Utah. They make extracts of
that, like concentrates. I guess you could use a little Celtic sea salt or
Himalayan sea salt, a little lemon juice. You can kind of create your own
cocktail. A lot of it, too, comes down to structured water. If you eat a lot of
dehydrated, cooked foods, even gluten-free grains, youre dehydrating yourself
all day long.

Vegetables and fruitGod, one of the best ways to get dissolved oxygen
structured water is with your organic apple. So sometimes you can
compensate for the need for lots of good water with water that comes naturally
in your food.

Dr. Kellman: Is there one purification system that you would recommend
other than reverse osmosis?

Sayer Ji: Yeah, I guess I would say I like distillation a lot because I feel like it
really gets it down.

Dr. Kellman: Other than distillation?

Sayer Ji: I dont really know of another system that And then from there,
its clear. Exposure to good quality food. Again, Im a big advocate of gluten
and dairy free as a baseline because if you eat gluten and dairy Its
dependent on genotype. Blond-haired, blue-eyed, youre more likely to do
better on dairy than me.

But youre going to have a certain type of bacteria that will colonize your
system just so you can survive the exposure. And it will help reduce the
toxicity, but youll have unintended adverse effects, more likely to be infected

The Kellman Center for Functional and Integrative Medicine. All rights reserved. 14
with other opportunistic microorganisms and/or other side effects like gas and
bloating, etc.

So gluten free, dairy free baseline. Organic. Again, biodynamic even better
because the soil quality is so important when you connect to the microbiome
issues. Then, of course, I would say clean air and sunlight is actually just as
important.

Dr. Kellman: Right. Sayer, how do people find out more about you? How do
they stay in touch with you, etc.?

Sayer Ji: Thank you. We have a daily newsletter that we get out to your inbox
fresh with cutting-edge information. So thats the best way to reach us. And
on Facebook, you can follow us. But the algorithms dont really like natural
health people very much, so we dont get much of a reach even though we
almost have half a million likes. They just dont give our page much

Dr. Kellman: Well talk about that. Thank you so much, Sayer, for being part
of this summit. Well stay in touch. It was really so wonderful to speak with
you.

Sayer Ji: Excellent.

Dr. Kellman: Lets do it again. Its wonderful. So many things to talk about.
So thank you all for listening to the second Microbiome Medicine Summit: The
Missing Link to Improving Your Health and Healing. And that was my friend,
Sayer Ji. Well have other wonderful guests. If you want to learn more about
my work, you could visit the Kellman Center for Integrative and Functional
Medicine. Take home these messages. Write them down. Share it with your
friends. Spread out this critical and life-saving information.

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